Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12220

1 Monday, 18 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Ms. Edgerton, are you ready to continue the examination of

11 Witness 73?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment. I am, Your Honour,

14 and I can advise the Court with respect to I think the number is 8

15 intercepts which had previously been marked for playing to this witness.

16 I've had a conversation with Ms. Loukas as regards the identification of

17 the voices of the interlocutors to those conversations. She's indicated

18 to me this morning that she takes no issue with the voice ID and

19 following Your Honour's guidance, then, I will be seeking to tender at

20 the end of the witness's evidence in chief those conversations along with

21 two other contextual documents.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That's highly appreciated by the Chamber.

23 Madam Usher --

24 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct, we had that

25 conversation this morning regarding the intercepts.

Page 12221

1 JUDGE ORIE: I took that without any contradiction --

2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort Witness 73 into

4 the courtroom.

5 Just prior to the arrival of the witness, first of all I'd like

6 to remind the parties to switch off their microphones which the witness

7 answers the questions. That's point one. Are there any remaining

8 intercepts to be played, Ms. Edgerton?

9 MS. EDGERTON: Two, Your Honour. One immediately -- that we'll

10 begin with and the one that we couldn't play because of technical

11 difficulties earlier which I'll propose only to do at the very end of his

12 testimony.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'd like to again ask the assistance of

14 the interpreters in working rather -- at a slow speed from the

15 transcript, the other interpreter then checking whether the transcript is

16 in accordance with the spoken text so that it's possible to make a

17 transcription at all.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 WITNESS: WITNESS 73 [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Witness 73. Witness 73, all

22 protective measures are effective at this moment. I would like to remind

23 you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration that you have

24 given at the beginning of your testimony last Thursday.

25 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

Page 12222

1 Examined by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

2 Q. Good morning, Witness 73. At the time we concluded our session

3 on Friday of last week, we dealt with an event in early January 1992 and

4 that involved movement of some weapons from Semizovac barracks. I'd like

5 to take us a little bit forward in time now and I -- to a second

6 intercept or another intercept dated 16 January 1992 and I think we can

7 move into open session for the playing of this intercept.

8 We are in open session?

9 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.

10 MS. EDGERTON: The intercept transcripts bear the number

11 0328-8730 to 0328-8734 and that's the B/C/S version. I don't think we

12 have a number for that one as yet, do we?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar --

14 MS. EDGERTON: -- previously played a part, presently bears the

15 number P292 but only in part; is that correct? No?

16 JUDGE ORIE: I see that on my list ...

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, of course we couldn't use this same

19 exhibit number if it's played in part only because then the additional

20 part would be missing. So therefore, we'll deal with the number -- we

21 can start playing it.

22 MS. EDGERTON: The English version of the transcript bears the

23 same number with the prefix ET in front of it.


25 Now, Ms. Edgerton, it's not quite clear to me whether P292 is a

Page 12223

1 part of what you are going to play now or whether you are going to play

2 now a part of P292. That's unclear on your list, at least. So

3 therefore, if you could -- because if we are now playing only a part of

4 P292, then of course there's no problem. If, however, P292 would be a

5 part of this intercept, then we would need to assign a new number.

6 MS. EDGERTON: I tried to check that over the weekend and I don't

7 have a detailed knowledge of what P292 was but I saw several intercepts

8 had been marked as being part of P292. Perhaps it was --

9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll check the ERN numbers and of course as the

10 Prosecution is having difficulties in knowing exactly what they tendered,

11 what was admitted, then you might have another problem.

12 Please proceed.

13 [Intercept played]

14 JUDGE ORIE: There's something wrong. We receive the B/C/S on

15 the English channel so let's restart. Could we stop? We received the

16 B/C/S on the English channel; therefore, we would have to restart and

17 let's just take care that the right microphones are open and that

18 connects to the right earphones.

19 Now I do not hear anything at all. There seems to be a technical

20 problem. May I ask whether the English booth was translating?

21 THE INTERPRETER: No, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Because you didn't hear B/C/S?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because if we hear B/C/S then you might hear

25 something different on your channel.

Page 12224

1 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, actually, I don't hear anything at

2 all from the -- I didn't anything hear from the English booth.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear me now?

4 MS. EDGERTON: Not at all.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I now can hear you and Ms. Edgerton, do you now

6 receive the -- on channel 4?

7 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence again for a moment.


9 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the interpreter?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, when you try, do you hear me?

11 THE INTERPRETER: And do you hear the interpreters?

12 MS. EDGERTON: Wonderful.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's restart the intercept.

14 [Intercept played]

15 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

16 Jovan Tintor: Is Rajko there now, this is Joja --

17 Rajko Koprivica: Hello.

18 Jovan Tintor: Hey president...

19 Rajko Koprivica: Hey man, where are you...

20 Jovan Tintor: I have a meeting. I just wanted to give you a

21 call, you know...

22 I need to see Momo... probably Radovan will be there as well. I

23 don't know.

24 Rajko Koprivica: [Realtime transcript read in error: "Radovan

25 Karadzic:"] So what should I do? Should I hold?

Page 12225

1 Jovan Tintor: You should do that as I told you, please. Accept

2 that as --

3 Rajko Koprivica: No no. No way. You and me and Raso will sit

4 down. I will tell them that in your absence I am chairing and that is

5 it. I won't do anything special, just explain it to them what we do

6 today... Momo... not what Momo told me but when they started pushing

7 for the government... I'll tell them, 'Go ahead make your proposals but

8 what is this Momo told me.'

9 Jovan Tintor: Good. You know what he told you.

10 Rajko Koprivica: Well, I mean only as regards the government.

11 That's what they are interested in. And nothing else interests them

12 anyway.

13 Jovan Tintor: Yeah, I mean what do they want with --

14 Rajko Koprivica: Well, you heard from Momo. Then there will be

15 one municipality... it will only be the town. Nothing. Are they mad?

16 But... All right. Don't worry. I'll let you know about all this.

17 You'll mainly be at the be at the Main Board and so on...

18 Jovan Tintor: ... to understand that.

19 Rajko Koprivica: Yes, you -- we have to meet... I lived in such

20 an environment. Leave those idiots be. Leave those idiots... in the

21 field. We turned out to be fucking idiots.

22 Jovan Tintor: Well damn it. Some people were here from the

23 centre of town and explained some things. They had a problem of similar

24 nature. Actually theirs was a different nature. And then they only

25 say... a small circle of people meets and says call these guys and don't

Page 12226

1 call those guys and that's it.

2 Rajko Koprivica: Right, no problems, pal. It will all pass.

3 I've received all the instructions as regards that. With Momo.

4 I stayed with this, I came with Makso and with Momo... for two

5 hours we... he said, wait, these are here, too.

6 Jovan Tintor: Well, yeah.

7 Rajko Koprivica: So we stayed on for a while. You stayed on a

8 bit longer, right?

9 Jovan Tintor: Yes, I had to.

10 Rajko Koprivica: Okay. Good. Is everything all right? They

11 recognised --

12 ... They recognised our Croatian brothers.

13 Jovan Tintor: The Macedonians. They haven't can't have

14 recognised the Croats!

15 Rajko Koprivica: They recognised Croatia and Slovenia.

16 Jovan Tintor: When, man?

17 Rajko Koprivica: Well, it was on the fucking news tonight.

18 Jovan Tintor: Wait, they recognised Macedonia. Not Croatia.

19 Rajko Koprivica: Not Croatia. They recognised Croatia.

20 Jovan Tintor: Who recognised Croatia?

21 Rajko Koprivica: Well the 12 member states of the EC.

22 Jovan Tintor: Don't fuck around with me!

23 Rajko Koprivica: Well, fucking hell. They just said that this

24 morning, today, last night, isn't that right? I just arrived from town.

25 The Commission found that Slovenia and Macedonia --

Page 12227

1 Jovan Tintor: And Macedonia, man.

2 Rajko Koprivica: Wait. The Commission found that Slovenia and

3 Croatia meet the conditions to be recognised. There really were reports

4 that they all recognised. Only -- they all recognised them, only the

5 Englishmen made a comment about how the Serbia would be angry.

6 Jovan Tintor: Oh, fucking hell.

7 Rajko Koprivica: Is that how -- is that a new moment for

8 these --

9 Jovan Tintor: How the hell would it not be?

10 Rajko Koprivica: Well yeah, pal. You never know with these

11 Latinos. They can do everything. They'll recognise Alija tomorrow, man.

12 What is the matter with you... We have to make other preparations.

13 It's... I just found out. I just arrived from town. I was in town all

14 fucking day. The whole bloody day.

15 Jovan Tintor: Well fuck. Let's round up all our people and

16 start fucking... first.

17 ...

18 Rajko Koprivica: Well sure, Momo proposed that, you know Momo,

19 'never mind, Rajko, never mind; we're' --

20 Jovan Tintor: It's not...

21 Rajko Koprivica: I told Momo that he was deceiving himself

22 but... he can have it this way and then we'll see...

23 Jovan Tintor: Well yeah.

24 Rajko Koprivica: We should have finished that deal a long time

25 ago. Jole...

Page 12228

1 Jovan Tintor: Yeah.

2 Rajko Koprivica: You, Raso and me should meet tomorrow.

3 Jovan Tintor: Uh-huh. We have to see each other tonight as

4 well. I don't have this. I wouldn't go there for that.

5 Rajko Koprivica: I know. All right. Do you want me to give you

6 a call after this and then...??? Although Gordana is here... but someone

7 will drop her off and we can sit down and --

8 Jovan Tintor: Is she there?

9 Rajko Koprivica: I got her to Goran's place. Her brother is not

10 doing well.

11 Jovan Tintor: Okay.

12 Rajko Koprivica: Well, I can give her a lift as well and return,

13 sit down, have coffee.

14 Jovan Tintor: Well yeah, yeah... I don't know...

15 Rajko Koprivica: Well, you and Raso and me have to clear up some

16 things.

17 Jovan Tintor: Well yes, wherever we agree. I won't --

18 Rajko Koprivica: Do you want to it do up there? I wouldn't be

19 longer than an hour or half an hour or an hour.

20 Jovan Tintor: Is Raso there?

21 Rajko Koprivica: Raso wants to see the news.

22 Jovan Tintor: Yeah.

23 Rajko Koprivica: So we won't meet tonight?

24 Jovan Tintor: We can watch the news at the hotel if you want.

25 Rajko Koprivica: Watch the news at the hotel. Right, Right.

Page 12229

1 Jovan Tintor: Well yeah. Up there at the Park. I'll be --

2 Rajko Koprivica: Okay. Deal.

3 Jovan Tintor: I'll be up there at 1930.

4 Rajko Koprivica: All right.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, just for the record, in the beginning,

6 let me just find the place, page 5, line 20, Karadzic appears as in an

7 interlocutor which must be a mistake.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, it is.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


11 Q. Witness 73, I have two questions for you based on that

12 conversation. First, did you recognise the voices of either of the

13 interlocutors?

14 A. Yes, that was Jovan Tintor and Rajko Koprivica's voices.

15 Q. And now if you could turn to the last page of the transcript of

16 that conversation, there's mention between the two speakers of a hotel by

17 the name of Park. Are you familiar with any hotel by the name of Park?

18 A. Yes, I'm familiar with the Hotel Park in Vogosca.

19 Q. Thank you. I have no more questions about that conversation.

20 And probably at this point we should move into private session again.

21 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a problem with the French

22 interpretation. Could we just -- it's functioning again.

23 Yes, please proceed. We turn it to private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 12230











11 Pages 12230-12285 redacted. Private session.















Page 12286

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24 Witness 73, you've come to The Hague. You have answered the

25 questions of both parties. You have answered questions put to you by the

Page 12287

1 Bench. I'd like to thank you for coming and for giving your testimony

2 and I wish you to safe trip home again.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Madam Usher, could you please escort the

5 witness out of the courtroom.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, is -- for the next witness, we

8 would have the same protective measures but ...

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, the number of the next witness would

11 be?

12 MS. EDGERTON: Her number is 084, Your Honour, but there is the

13 matter of contextual documents before we finish off with 073.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I was just wondering whether for practical

15 reasons, we should -- oh, yes, you said you would like to tender them.

16 Yes, we could do that now.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that, Your Honour, obviously

18 both Ms. Edgerton and I are dealing with, of course, the last witness and

19 the next witness. So if it would be of any assistance to start the next

20 witness, I'm sure we could deal with the he remainder of these exhibits

21 when we ...

22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid that we need sometime because voice

23 distortion needs some additional preparation and testing. That's at

24 least what I understand. So therefore, we could not continue.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Just one further matter in relation to the last

Page 12288

1 witness, Your Honour. I may have stayed in I think closed session a

2 little too long there, but I was dealing with matters where it was quite

3 possible that the witness might identify himself.

4 I might, if Ms. Edgerton and I get an opportunity later to have a

5 look at the transcript, perhaps we could identify passages that can go

6 back into open session, what have you, because there are passages that

7 don't need to be in closed session and there are passages that are. So

8 perhaps if some allowance would be made for that as well.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if the parties could agree on those portions

10 that could be public, that would certainly assist the Chamber in making

11 any determinations.

12 Let's first deal with the contextual exhibits, Ms. Edgerton.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Dealing first then with the intercepts, Your

14 Honour, eight telephone intercepts, two of those eight already have

15 exhibit numbers. That's what I was given ...

16 JUDGE ORIE: That confuses Madam Registrar a bit.

17 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry.

18 JUDGE ORIE: To assign new numbers to it. Let's go through them.

19 7 March 1992. Yes.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you identify the ones that have already been

22 assigned an exhibit number.

23 MS. EDGERTON: The one that I have that's been assigned an

24 exhibit number is 0322-0 --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Would you give the date that goes far quicker,

Page 12289

1 although we have some on the same date. I've got 7 March 1992; 4 April

2 1992; again 4 April 1992, 6 April 1992l, 18th of April. Then one without

3 a date. Then the 18th of April and the 19th of April. These are the

4 intercepts. Which one of these six?

5 MS. EDGERTON: One of the conversations on the 4th of April 1992.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Which one?

7 MS. EDGERTON: The one between Jovan Tintor and Momcilo

8 Krajisnik, bearing the number 0322-0618 to 0322-0619 I'm informed has a

9 designation similar to the previous one, P292 part.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, perhaps we at a later stage -- yes,

11 if you give -- if, Ms. Edgerton, you give numbers to -- if you give

12 documents for prenumbering to Madam Registrar, then it would be good for

13 her to know that they received a number already because it disrupts a bit

14 the system.

15 MS. EDGERTON: My apologies and it won't happen again.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that we leave it to Madam Registrar

17 to finalise the numbering that you just inform us on what documents you

18 still have. So we have now dealt with six telephone intercepts.

19 Ms. Loukas, I understand that the Defence does not dispute the

20 identity of the interlocutors as stated.

21 Ms. Loukas. I do understand that the Defence does not dispute

22 the identity of the interlocutors as given in the transcripts of these

23 telephone intercepts.

24 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour. I indicated that

25 earlier this morning and there is no problem with any of those intercepts

Page 12290

1 coming into evidence.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. Then Ms. Edgerton, next would be?

3 MS. EDGERTON: Two documents, Your Honour, the first dated 2nd

4 May, 1992, the second dated 14 May 1992.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First one being "Serbian Municipal Assembly of

6 Vogosca crisis headquarters order."

7 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Second one being the "Serb Republic of BH Vogosca

9 Serbian municipality order" with a subject -- yes, that's an order as

10 well. First order signed by Jovanovic on behalf of Jovan Tintor. The

11 second one seems to bear the signature of Jovan Tintor.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas -- any further documents, Ms. Edgerton?

14 If not, Ms. Loukas, any objections?

15 MS. LOUKAS: No objections, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then all these documents are admitted into evidence,

17 the final numbers to be assigned to them to Madam Registrar and to be

18 found on the list kept by Madam Registrar.

19 Any other procedural issue at this moment.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Not with respect to this witness.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Not with respect to this witness.

22 Ms. Loukas.

23 Ms. Loukas, it has some advantages if I'm not speaking loud

24 enough to put your headphones on. No procedural issues at this moment?

25 MS. LOUKAS: No, no procedural issues. We just have two

Page 12291












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12292

1 outstanding issues in relation to the last witness' evidence, the point

2 that I made late on Thursday afternoon in relation to striking a certain

3 portion, and also today in relation to striking a certain portion.


5 MS. LOUKAS: But in relation to the next witness, I have no

6 procedural issues, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then in relation to the next witness, I think

8 the Judges have decided on protective measures last Friday, reasons still

9 to be given but the parties are informed about the content of our

10 decision.

11 Madam Registrar, how much time does it take to prepare for the --

12 to adjust -- it's ready already.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the preparation for voice

15 distortion is not witness specific. We'll adjourn until 20 minutes to

16 1.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we continue, I would first like to give

20 the reasons for the decisions of last Friday.

21 Reasons for the decision on protective measures for the Witnesses

22 84, 239, and 270.

23 The Prosecution's motion for protective measures for Witnesses

24 84, 239, and 270 was filed on the 12th of April, 2005. It was then

25 amended on the 14th of April in relation to Witness 270 only. Also on

Page 12293

1 the 14th of April, the Chamber invited the Defence to consider whether it

2 might not concede the Prosecution's motion, in which case it would have

3 avoided a time-consuming written submission, seeing that, in the first

4 place, the applicable law on the subject of protective measures has been

5 restated by this Chamber time and again, in what we think are very clear

6 terms. Secondly, the Prosecution's motion seemed to make a relatively

7 strong case in favour of protective measures for the three witnesses.

8 While it is of no consequence, I note that at the time that we

9 made our invitation to the Defence, only at that time we were informed of

10 the Prosecution's further request to amend its motion in relation to

11 Witness 270. But that development did not make any difference to the

12 Chamber's invitation.

13 The Defence reply to the motion was sent to the Chamber by e-mail

14 on the afternoon of the 15th of April. The registrar has since kindly

15 been asked to have it filed. The Defence did not fully concede the

16 motion. More accurately, it opposed the motion, conceding for each

17 witness some measure of privacy or protection, but not the measures

18 requested.

19 The Chamber deliberated on that same afternoon, following which

20 the parties were informed by the legal officer of the Chamber's decision.

21 The decision was to grant the motion as amended. I shall now summarise

22 the reasons.

23 In relation to Witnesses 84 and 239, both of whom are expected to

24 allege that they were raped, it seems that the perpetrators of the

25 alleged rapes are at large, or might still be at large. The question is

Page 12294

1 whether the two witnesses should be granted voice distortion, image

2 distortion, and pseudonyms which I will call the basic measures, in

3 addition to private session for all testimony about the alleged rapes.

4 The latter measure is not opposed by the Defence.

5 The Chamber holds that the basic measures should be granted for

6 both witnesses in order to conceal their identity from a public audience.

7 The witnesses would be justified in fearing that a perpetrator following

8 the proceedings in open session could tell from the context of the

9 testimony that the lapse into private session is for the purpose of

10 dealing with allegations of rape in which the perpetrator can expect to

11 be implicated by the witness whom he has recognised as the victim of his

12 past actions. Both witnesses continue to reside in the locations where

13 the alleged crimes were committed. The objective basis of their fear is

14 thus easily and entirely predictable, and entirely predictably

15 established through the three-point test reiterated by the Chamber in its

16 remarks on the 14th of April.

17 The case for Witness 270 is also straightforward. She has

18 expressed such fear that she refuses to testify except in closed session.

19 The unique circumstances she allegedly experienced make her easily

20 identifiable, even under the protection of basic measures. It seems that

21 she has already been targeted by a person who heard her speak publicly

22 about the alleged crimes in another context. Since basic measures do not

23 suffice in the case of Witness 270, she is granted closed session and, as

24 well, a pseudonym.

25 This concludes the reasons for our decision, but I take this

Page 12295

1 opportunity once again to urge the parties to cooperate in matters of

2 protective measures. The parties must know by now what the Chamber will

3 say in each case. That is as it should be. You have a right to expect

4 that the law is clear and that its application is predictable.

5 Tomorrow, it will be the Defence's turn to ask for protective

6 measures for its witnesses, and of course the same rules will apply.

7 Both parties must understand that the Chamber is not prepared to take

8 risks with the security of witnesses in cases where fear has been

9 expressed and where there is an objective basis for the fear. This is

10 not an academic exercise in which hair-splitting technical arguments have

11 any place. The question is instead one of concrete common sense, as in

12 the example considered before, where the perpetrator is assumed to be

13 following the proceedings.

14 Prior to filing written motions for protective measures, the

15 parties should, from now on, explore the possibility of agreement. An

16 oral request to the Chamber might then suffice. Perhaps your cooperation

17 in this regard will be enhanced if I say that the parties by cooperating

18 will not be understood to have waived their right to question the

19 Chamber's approach to protective measures, either in their final briefs

20 or in any appeal from the Chamber's final judgement.

21 This concludes my remarks on the subject of cooperation.

22 Ms. Edgerton, are you ready to start the examination of

23 Witness 84?

24 MS. EDGERTON: I am, Your Honour. Just before we begin, I'd like

25 to make a few remarks on initially the 89(F) summary of the witness

Page 12296

1 that's been prepared. Your Honours would hear that this summary is

2 longer than what's normally within read out in court and I must say that

3 the witness asked for and I've given her the opportunity to take a part

4 in drafting or phrasing some of the contents of this summary. And Your

5 Honour - and the witness will be prepared to say this herself: These are

6 her words. For this witness while she fully understands that Your

7 Honours have copies of her previous statements, and those copies will be

8 filed as evidence and will be considered by the Trial Chamber, it's an

9 important aspect of this process for her in healing, I might say, in

10 unburdened herself, to have the words about her experiences spoken in the

11 courtroom.

12 So Your Honours, I would be asking for your indulgence, your

13 patience, to allow us to be a bit longer on this 89(F) summary which

14 would still save, in my submission, a great deal of time at the end of

15 the witness's testimony.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Edgerton. Yes.

17 MS. EDGERTON: And just an administrative matter, especially

18 given that the Prosecution didn't perform so well with respect to

19 contextual documents for the last witness and the numbering of them. I

20 do want to flag for the Trial Chamber, that tomorrow, we will be seeking

21 to do similarly as with the last witness, file a series of contextual

22 documents and intercepts. But those will be provided to Madam Registrar

23 at the outset with a clear indication of what's been previously filed.


25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 12297

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, Madam Registrar does not need any

2 exhibits or any document that has been previously tendered and admitted.

3 Of course it's nice for us to have it into our hands so that we don't

4 have to dive into our files and find it. But Madam Registrar would be --

5 it would rather confuse her than assist her if you give her anything

6 that's already in evidence. But I'm certain that our performance will

7 become better and better.

8 Ms. Loukas, any problem as far as the 89(F) summary is concerned?

9 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour, there's no problem with the 89(F)

10 summary from the point of the Defence and I take on board the things that

11 Ms. Edgerton has mentioned.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I take it that especially if a witness

13 herself is taking part in formulating, then of course protective measures

14 should be looked at even with more scrutiny than normally. I take it

15 that you have done that.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Madam Usher, could you please escort the

18 witness into the courtroom.

19 Madam Registrar, I take it that all the technical requirements

20 are functioning.

21 [The witness entered court]


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

Page 12298

1 JUDGE ORIE: I say Witness 84 because we'll not use your name in

2 these proceedings. We'll call you by the number 84. Also, your face

3 cannot be seen by the outside world; neither can your voice be heard

4 directly, that is, your voice is distorted before broadcasted. Apart

5 from that, parts of your testimony that might identify your identity may

6 be given in private session, that is that what you say is not at all

7 conveyed to the public.

8 Before you give evidence in this Court, the Rules of Procedure

9 and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak

10 the truth, the whole trust nothing but the truth. I'd like to invite you

11 to make that solemn declaration of which the text will be handed out to

12 you by Madam Usher.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 84, please be seated.

16 You will first be examined by Ms. Edgerton, counsel for the

17 Prosecution.

18 Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Edgerton, please.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Could we just shift the ELMO away from the witness

21 so that we can see one another, please.

22 Examined by Ms. Edgerton:


24 Q. Witness 84, now, you're going to be given a sheet of paper with

25 some information on the front. I'd like you to have a look at that sheet

Page 12299

1 of paper and tell us if that's your name and date of birth that appear

2 there and whether that information is correct.

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. EDGERTON: I'd ask that that be filed as the first exhibit,

5 please, under seal.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be ...

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE ORIE: The number will be assigned at a later stage when we

9 have cleaned up the numbering of the previous exhibits.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Now, since this witness's statements will be filed

11 under Rule 89(F), I would ask that we move into closed session, if that's

12 possible, because we'll be talking about the dates in which these

13 statements were taken and that might serve to identify an -- private

14 session, pardon me -- that might serve to be an identifying factor.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll turn into private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 12300











11 Pages 12300-12314 redacted. Private session.















Page 12315

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17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.

18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of

19 April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.