Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14333

1 Monday, 13 June 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Ms. Loukas, are you ready to cross-examine --

10 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour --

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Davidovic.

12 MS. LOUKAS: -- I have a small problem, and that is that my case

13 manager is not here as yet. I think there's been some delay with

14 transport or what have you. And there's a matter I just needed to check

15 with Mr. Krajisnik prior to the commencement of my cross-examination.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it something that should really be done

17 before you even start, or could you make a beginning and then ask for a

18 time-out of five minutes to ...

19 MS. LOUKAS: Well, in relation to --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Otherwise, we have to wait, and it's uncertain when

21 he will arrive. So if there would be any way to start and then I will

22 grant you five minutes for ...

23 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour.


25 MS. LOUKAS: If that's the approach that Your Honour wants to

Page 14334

1 adopt.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I asked whether that would be possible, and it

3 seems that it's not totally impossible, so therefore ...

4 MS. LOUKAS: Not totally impossible.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, the Chamber will know when your

6 case manager arrives and give you -- give you just a couple of minutes at

7 that moment.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. But, of course, it's rather

9 disruptive at that stage because --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could Ms. Loukas please speak into the

11 microphone, thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and in two

13 minutes from now on I would have no hesitation to wait, Ms. Loukas, but it

14 could well be half an hour as well and then we have lost half an hour.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.


17 MS. LOUKAS: I can't put a time on it.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. Davidovic in

19 the courtroom.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Davidovic, I'd like to remind you that you're

22 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

23 your testimony. And I inform you that once Ms. Loukas has started her

24 cross-examination that there might be a short interruption of a couple of

25 minutes for some consultation between counsel and Mr. Krajisnik, which

Page 14335

1 could not take place due to the absence of the case manager at this very

2 moment. So please be prepared that there might be a short interruption.

3 Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:

8 Q. Good morning, Witness. Now, Mr. Davidovic, at -- at a certain

9 point -- I just want to go to your statement.

10 Now, Mr. Davidovic, how long have you been a police officer?

11 A. Since 1974. Between 1974 and 1994.

12 Q. So that's about 20 years.

13 Now, I want to take you to --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, just in relation to the statement that you gave the

16 Prosecution. It indicates on the front of the statement that it went from

17 the 14th to the 19th of November and the 25th to the 29th of January. So

18 this procedure of -- of taking your statement in consultation with

19 Mr. Hannis for the Prosecution, that took a process of -- in the nature of

20 11 days; correct?

21 A. Yes. I can't recall exactly to the day, but roughly speaking,

22 yes.

23 Q. And --

24 A. If I could just point out: In the second half of last year, I

25 was also involved in information talks about the circumstances, et cetera,

Page 14336

1 and then afterwards The Hague Tribunal asked the Federal Government to

2 release me from the need to keep state secrets. And then afterwards we

3 could go ahead. Because I did not want to get involved in any talks if I

4 did not have that waiver from the Federal Government.

5 Q. Yes. Mr. Davidovic, I was specifically asking you about the time

6 it took to take your statement. But this additional information in

7 relation to -- if you could just point out -- "in the second half of last

8 year, I was also involved in information talks." Who participated in

9 those information talks?

10 A. Well, the first conversation that they attempted to have with me

11 was at Brcko, and the Prosecutor and somebody else were present. And when

12 I referred to the fact that I would need to get that waiver in terms of

13 official and state secrets, they said that they would request that. And

14 it took rather a long time until they final got it. And then afterwards

15 the Prosecutor invited me for another talk, and there was the Prosecutor

16 himself and an investigator, I think, from the Tribunal. I think he was a

17 police officer by profession. And there was an interpreter there. Nobody

18 else.

19 Q. So who was involved in these information talks? Who was present

20 when you were having these information talks?

21 A. No one, other than myself and these three people I've just

22 referred to.

23 Q. And who were these three people?

24 A. Let me repeat it once again. The Prosecutor, then somebody

25 else - I believe it was a policeman; I don't know his name, also on behalf

Page 14337

1 of The Hague Tribunal - and a lady, who was an interpreter. No one else.

2 And those three people were always present there throughout, and nobody

3 else participated in the talks.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, perhaps it's helpful to --

5 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's help to feel find out whether the

7 information talks are anything different from the interviews.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. That's what I'm trying to

9 establish.


11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if I may. If we could ask the witness

12 to take off his headphones for a moment, I might be able to address the

13 Court and Ms. Loukas and --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But let's then first try to find out whether

15 the witness understands any English.

16 Mr. Davidovic, do you understand any English?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not a single word.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you, then, please take off your

21 earphones for a second.

22 Mr. Hannis.

23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 I can advise Ms. Loukas and the Court that I -- that I was

25 present, I think, at what he's talking about as informational talks. I

Page 14338

1 was present with an investigator from the OTP named Paul Basham. Another

2 investigator, Peter Mitford-Burgess, and an interpreter. I don't remember

3 who the interpreter was on that occasion.

4 When we first met him, we were in Brcko talking to other people.

5 His name had come up as someone who might have information for us. We met

6 briefly with him, maybe 15 minutes or so, just to determine if he was the

7 Mico Davidovic whose name had come up in the course of our investigation.

8 He indicated to us that he would be willing to talk with us, but he

9 wouldn't do so until he had a waiver from his government to talk about

10 matters that had occurred when he had been employed as a police officer.

11 And there was no statement taken and no information written about -- there

12 might have been a mission report that just mentioned the fact that we met

13 with him, but there wasn't any substantive conversation with him, other

14 than we would seek a waiver and we would try to talk to him in the future.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And do I then understand that on the 14th of

16 November the real interview started?

17 MR. HANNIS: Of 2004.


19 MR. HANNIS: Yes,

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, I hope this will assist you. And we

21 could ask the witness to put his earphones on again, I take it, or would

22 you like to ...

23 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. I'd just be interested in having

24 perhaps any documentation that the Prosecution have in relation to the

25 information talks.

Page 14339

1 MR. HANNIS: As I said, Your Honour, there was no substance

2 recorded of the meeting with him other than the fact that we had met with

3 and that we were going to seek a waiver. I'll try and find whatever

4 sentence there might be in the mission report.


6 Ms. Loukas, then I take it that you will receive that; although,

7 it might not be much.

8 Mr. Davidovic, could you please put your earphones on again.

9 Yes.

10 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. How long did these information talks take?

13 A. Do you mean every day or how many days?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, let me just -- let me just -- it takes

15 too much time.

16 When you for the first time met with anyone from the Office of

17 the Prosecutor, how much time did that first meeting take?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was very brief. Perhaps half an

19 hour, 40 minutes tops. It was a very brief meeting.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Was it at that occasion that you insisted on getting

21 a waiver before you would further talk to representatives of the Office of

22 the Prosecution?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 14340

1 Q. And what sort of waiver did you get?

2 A. I got a document from the Federal Government, from the Committee

3 for Cooperation with The Hague Tribunal, and it indicated that I was given

4 a waiver in -- as far as state, military, and official secrets were

5 concerned, and that meant that I could freely answer any questions put to

6 me by The Hague investigators without bearing any individual

7 responsibility.

8 Q. Now, in any event, going back to the statement that you

9 ultimately gave to the Prosecution, it was of course a very detailed

10 statement?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the -- and as a police officer of some 20 years standing, you

13 were very keenly aware of the need to be truthful and correct?

14 A. Certainly.

15 Q. And the Prosecutor asked you to tell them anything you knew about

16 Mr. Krajisnik?

17 A. No. No, he didn't ask me to talk about Mr. Krajisnik. He asked

18 me to tell him what I did, where I was, and what I saw when I spent time

19 on the territory of the Republika Srpska in the first place and then

20 within a larger, broader context what I did within the area of competence

21 for the federal secretariat, federal SUP.

22 I was not even told that their main interest was Mr. Krajisnik.

23 They asked me to tell them what I did and where I went and where I met

24 with a number of people. Initially I didn't even know that the whole

25 point was to investigate Mr. Krajisnik.

Page 14341












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14342

1 Q. Well, you were aware that these proceedings were ongoing, I take

2 it, proceedings against Mr. Krajisnik.

3 A. I was aware that proceedings were underway against Mr. Milosevic

4 and against a number of other people, so I thought it was about that. And

5 initially -- even for the first few days I had no idea that it was mostly

6 about Mr. Krajisnik, because there are quite a few trials and proceedings

7 underway.

8 Q. Yes. Now, I want to take you to paragraph 61 of your statement

9 that you've given the Prosecution. And you indicated there that --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, would you like the witness to be

11 provided with the statement or not? If not, then ask Mr. Usher to ...

12 MS. LOUKAS: Well, actually, Your Honour, there's no real need to

13 it. I'm just adverting to it so that we're all on the same page, as it

14 were, in the courtroom, but --

15 JUDGE ORIE: But would you mind if he has it in front of him.

16 MS. LOUKAS: No, I don't mind, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.


19 Q. You indicated there that you filed certain reports and that you

20 kept copies of these reports. And then you indicate that they were taken

21 possession of by the Serbian MUP personnel during a search of your private

22 residence in Belgrade in 1995. Now, just in relation to that, you'll

23 recall that the Prosecutor asked you some questions about that. And

24 firstly that was at page 78 of the transcript on the 9th of June, Your

25 Honours. And then Judge Hanoteau also asked you some questions, at

Page 14343

1 page 81.

2 Now, just in relation to that, tell me, you indicated to Judge

3 Hanoteau that they issued you a certificate which showed that they'd taken

4 items that were of interest. Now, did you have a conversation with the

5 police officers prior to them issuing this certificate to you?

6 A. No. I had not talked to anyone. I wasn't even there when they

7 came in. It is not a certificate as such. It is about a search warrant

8 and a paper indicating what items had been taken, and it stayed with the

9 person who at that particular moment was in the apartment.

10 Q. Well, in response to a question from His Honour Judge Hanoteau,

11 you indicated -- sorry. If I might just check what you just said.

12 Okay. Let's just get the sequence correct here. The police

13 officers introduced themselves and they show you a search warrant;

14 correct?

15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think that misstates the evidence.

16 He's not indicated he was present when the search actually took place.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, could you ...

18 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, that's not immediately apparent

19 from the answer that he gave Judge Hanoteau.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No. Perhaps not necessarily. But is it part of the

21 evidence? I mean, even if it would not be in response to a question of

22 Judge Hanoteau, it's still to be ...

23 Mr. Hannis, could you guide us to the page where that appears?

24 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, on page 10 he said, "I wasn't

25 even there when they came in." Page 10, line 2 and 3 from today.

Page 14344

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.


3 Q. Well, let's just have a look at what you told Judge Hanoteau.

4 You said: "When they entered the flat, they introduced themselves as MUP

5 officials. They showed their identity cards and the -- and the search

6 that they had. They didn't provide this to me. But when they entered the

7 flat, they tried to find out where my documents were, and that's what the

8 search was interested in. After they had finished the search, they issued

9 a certificate which showed that they had taken items that were of interest

10 to the Davidovic case in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

11 So you tell the Court that that information that you provided in

12 response to a question from Judge Hanoteau was information based on you

13 not being there; is that correct?

14 A. You are trying to imply something that I did not say, and

15 especially I did not say it in the way that you are trying to interpret

16 it. I was quite clear. When these people came along, I was not present,

17 I was not in the flat, and I was not there when the search was carried

18 out. There was somebody else there, who opened the door and told them who

19 he was, and then they introduced themselves as police officers. They

20 showed the search warrant, et cetera.

21 I told you what they did. But let me stress once again, I was not

22 present in the flat when the search was carried out. I don't know why you

23 keep insisting on that and why you keep implying that I said that I was

24 actually there. I was not there. I never said I was there. And I would

25 not have been in a position to say something like that because it's not

Page 14345

1 true.

2 Q. Yes, I understand you're telling the Court that you weren't

3 there, but let's have a look at what you told the Court.

4 Okay. Let's go to page 78 of the 9th of June, shall we?

5 Mr. Hannis asks you this question: "In your statement, you say that you

6 kept copies of these reports but you don't have them any longer. Why is

7 that?"

8 And your answer was: "I did write a report and send it to the

9 minister. It was dispatched to the minister. And I asked for

10 instructions on what to do next, and I gave a detailed account of what was

11 going on and what my view was. That document went to the federal

12 minister, and I had a copy, but that copy afterwards was taken away from

13 me and I never managed to find it again."

14 Okay. That's what you told the Court in answer to a question

15 from the Prosecutor. In answer to a question from Judge Hanoteau - I've

16 already read out what your response was in relation to that - and that is

17 that they issued a certificate and what have you. And when one looks at

18 your statement at paragraph 61, which you have in front of you, nowhere do

19 you indicate that you were not there, do you?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, let's try to find out what the source of

21 knowledge of the witness is when he gave his statement, when he gave his

22 testimony, because he never said he was not there until today. He never

23 said that he was there. So therefore let's try to find out.

24 Mr. Davidovic, the information about how the search went on, how

25 do you -- how did you learn about it?

Page 14346

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I returned to my flat in

2 Belgrade, the person who was there gave me an account of what had

3 happened. He told me that the police had been there. He described how

4 they had introduced themselves and how they searched the flat. They even

5 told him not to call me on the phone and to wait until I come back to my

6 apartment to tell me everything.

7 When I said that all these things had been seized, I meant my

8 personal case files, my dossiers, those that I kept with me. Perhaps that

9 is something that caused some confusion.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When did you return to your flat? How much

11 time after the search took place?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was during a weekend when I was

13 away, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. On Sunday night when I came back, I was

14 told that they had been to my apartment.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just add something to my

17 answer?


19 Q. I'm happy to let you add something to your answer.

20 A. In the record that was made when the flat was entered, it was

21 obligatory for two witnesses to be present for the search to be valid and

22 legal. That, however, did not happen. There were no witnesses. And when

23 I saw the record, I could see that there were no witnesses. That is a

24 legal requirement.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, you as a police officer of 20 years standing,

Page 14347

1 when you wrote your report in relation to -- when you wrote your

2 statement, sorry, in relation to what happened to these reports at

3 paragraph 61, you do not indicate there that you were not present and nor

4 did you indicate in the answers that you gave to the Prosecutor and to the

5 Judge in relation to this sequence that you were not there. That's

6 correct, isn't it?

7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, first of all, he did not write the

8 statement. And this is argumentative.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, if the witness would say -- what answer

10 could he give? That is it there? Then, of course, no one would believe

11 him. If he says that it's not in there, it just confirms what he can

12 read. So I would agree with Mr. Hannis that this is -- well, perhaps

13 again the kind of ritual dances we have talked about before and which

14 really do not assist the Chamber very much. Please come to your points.

15 We'd like to hear about them, but this makes not enough sense to spend

16 time on it.

17 Please proceed.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I will make one comment. The

19 common-law process of closing the gates in cross-examination is no mere

20 ritual dance.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. We have -- we have talked

22 about closing the doors and opening windows.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour --

24 JUDGE ORIE: We are not a jury.

25 MS. LOUKAS: I understand that, Your Honour. But nevertheless

Page 14348

1 this is a police officer of 20 years standing. It's --

2 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, you've said that five times. You've asked

3 him how long he was a police officer, although we read in the statement

4 that he was a police officer since 1974. Then you calculated for us that

5 that is 20 years. The Chamber would even be in a position to make that --

6 make that relatively small calculation. Then you started almost every

7 question with "with your 20 years of police standing." I mean, the

8 Chamber is now aware that every answer comes from a police officer which

9 worked for 20 years in the police services.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. And the Trial Chamber would

11 expect more of a police officer of 20 years in his statement than --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But that's clear. That doesn't need

13 repetition again and again and again. Whatever question you ask to this

14 witness, the Chamber will be aware and will be constantly aware whether

15 this is satisfactory for someone who worked for 20 years in the police

16 services. Please be assured that we really are aware.

17 Please proceed.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Now, let's go to another portion of your statement, shall we?

20 That's paragraph 200. You don't need the statement in front of you for

21 that purpose. Now --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, I notice that Mr. Karganovic entered the

23 courtroom. If you would need the time now, then of course we would give

24 you the couple of minutes you would need.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 14349

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, my case manager just wishes to extend

3 his apologies to the Court. But what occurred is that his badge expired

4 this morning so that he could not enter the building.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Bureaucracy sometimes reigns our lives, Ms. Loukas.

6 Of course you're excused.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

9 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you for that, Your Honours.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, in your statement that -- prior to you

11 coming -- at the beginning of your evidence in chief you indicated to the

12 Prosecution was truthful and accurate. You indicate there that "Karadzic

13 and Krajisnik had a fist-fight in the plane," basically on the way back

14 from New York in, you say, either 1991 or 1992, "over money." You know

15 what I'm talking about, don't you? This thing you put in your statement.

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Davidovic, Mr. Krajisnik did not go to New York in 1991 or

18 1992. Now, are you prepared to concede that that information is

19 incorrect?

20 A. No. I am not prepared. I was informed by the members of our

21 services who accompanied them, and that's how I know about it. I cannot

22 go into any details. I was just informed by the members of our service

23 when they were both on the plane. I think when they were on a plane to

24 New York or somewhere. It concerned the money collected from our emigres

25 abroad, and I think it was this service in New York.

Page 14350












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14351

1 Q. Mr. Davidovic, that was just passing on gossip, and you as a

2 police officer know better than that, don't you?

3 A. I didn't say it was gossip. It was a note that I was able to

4 see, drafted by two of the officers who accompanied them. I said I

5 couldn't be certain, but I think it concerned New York. It was a long

6 time ago, and I don't know all the places, all the cities they visited. I

7 think it was New York. The first time they went, they said they had no

8 access and then the second time they were able to go after all to this

9 club of emigres, displaced persons, whatever it was called.

10 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you very specifically state in your

11 statement: "At the end of 1991 or the beginning of 1992, Karadzic and

12 Krajisnik went to New York for negotiations at the UN." That's what you

13 put in your statement.

14 You now tell the Court, "I couldn't be certain. I think it

15 concerned New York." You're just making this up as you go along, aren't

16 you?

17 A. No. You are not telling the truth. I am telling you about the

18 information that was available to me, that I had access to, and that I

19 gave to investigators when they asked me, because they put questions to me

20 concerning certain details of my work.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Davidovic, Ms. Loukas confronts you with your

22 statement where you said that "Upon returning from New York, that there

23 was a fight," and in your testimony now you say that you're not certain

24 that it was New York. That's what she's confronting you with. Are you

25 not certain that it was New York?

Page 14352

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was New York. She's

2 saying that it wasn't. I cannot be certain. I said what I knew. I

3 didn't make anything up. At that moment, I believed it was New York, and

4 I still think it was. Now she's saying they had never been there, and I'm

5 no longer certain. I really can't swear one way or another.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It, at least, where your statement seems to be

7 quite positive about it, it seems that being confronted with what

8 Ms. Loukas puts to you, you are not that positive anymore. And Ms. Loukas

9 as a matter of fact is confronting you with the fact that where the

10 statement seems to be clear and unambiguous, that from your testimony now

11 something different appears.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said at the outset, and I asked

13 you to understand that I cannot remember all the details, places, days and

14 hours. Indeed, I made some corrections when I came here concerning some

15 places that are mentioned, like Geneva or Athens. I thought in this

16 particular case it was New York, but maybe I misunderstood at the time.

17 But the essence of what I said, I stand by still today.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd like to make two observations: First of

19 all, Ms. Loukas, you've made your point. Second - and I'm now addressing

20 both parties - I take it that a journey in the end of 1991, early 1992 to

21 negotiate with the UN is something that hardly could have been a total

22 secret.

23 So, Mr. Hannis, I can imagine that you would have -- must have

24 sources to verify whether this is correct, whether this statement in this

25 respect is correct, yes or no. Therefore, it would certainly assist if

Page 14353

1 these matters could be clarified.

2 At the same time, I'm aware, Ms. Loukas, that you're referring to

3 part of the statement which is not tendered into evidence but of which

4 you're perfectly free to ask questions about the statement he gave.

5 Mr. Hannis, is there any way of, well, taking a position on

6 whether this could be correct or not?

7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have not done checking to see whether

8 or not there was ever a trip, whether it was 1991, 1992, or perhaps a

9 later date. But as you know, I did not offer this as part of the

10 statement that we proposed in evidence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I can imagine the Defence has a keen

12 interest in not only seeking verification of the parts you have admitted

13 into evidence but also to see whether -- how reliable the other parts are

14 that are taken out perhaps for other reasons but ...

15 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Along this line, when we get this

16 kind of information, as you know, we often make a request for assistance

17 from the authorities. For example, to see if we could get a copy of the

18 report that would have been provided by the two security officers who in

19 this case he got information from. But our success in getting those kinds

20 of information has generally not been very good, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One is the report. The other is the visit

22 itself, which I think you would not be dependent on --

23 MR. HANNIS: No. And I can do some checking on that and we'll

24 advise the Court.


Page 14354

1 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Now, moving on to another topic, Mr. Davidovic. Let's go to --

4 as I indicated, let's go to another topic.

5 You gave evidence on the 10th of June. That's last Friday. And

6 this is at page 9 of the transcript, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber

7 and the Prosecution. And the question was this, from

8 Mr. Hannis: "Mr. Davidovic, my question was: Do you know if Arkan was

9 subordinate to anyone?" And you indicated in your answer there that "I

10 think he was subordinated to -- well, partly to the Ministry of the

11 Interior in Serbia, to Mico Stanisic, and I assume that President

12 Krajisnik -- or rather, Mr. Karadzic were aware of his activities."

13 Okay. The first point to make there is that your evidence to --

14 that you gave in court in response to the question from the Prosecution

15 is -- is quite clearly an assumption on your part; correct?

16 A. No, it's not an assumption. I can give you some details that

17 might convince you whether I had indeed information that allows me to say

18 what I said.

19 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Davidovic, so when you use the term in response

20 to the question from the Prosecution "and I assume that" - right? - you

21 weren't assuming. You just said you were assuming, but you weren't

22 assuming. Is that what you're telling the Court?

23 A. I don't know what your interpretation is as to whether I was

24 assuming or not assuming, but I can give you additional information and

25 then you will be able to assess yourself whether it is knowledge or

Page 14355

1 assumption.

2 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I'm -- this is not interpretation. I'm quoting

3 your words in court. All right? And your words were "and I assume that

4 President Krajisnik -- or rather, Mr. Karadzic was aware of his

5 activities." Those are your words, not my words. So when you use the

6 word "assume," are you telling this Court that you were wrongly using the

7 word "assume"? Is that what you're telling the Court?

8 A. No. I did not misuse this word. I was a witness to that

9 conversation and I was an eyewitness to the relevant incidents, and he was

10 there, so it's impossible that he didn't know.

11 Two things happened: One at the Bosnian villa, and another one

12 that was assisted also by Ratko Mladic and Mr. Karadzic.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic -- okay. So "assume" means something

14 different to you, does it? What does "assume" mean to you?

15 A. It means I'm familiar with the situation. We are talking about

16 matters where I was present, where people like Frenki were present. You

17 are trying to use this game of words, whether it is the truth or not the

18 truth, whether I know or assume. It's more playing with words on your

19 part.

20 Q. Well, there's a difference, isn't there, between knowing

21 something and assuming something, and you as a police officer of 20 years

22 standing, you know that, don't you?

23 A. Well, some things need not to be explained because they are

24 known. I assume that certain things are known facts. That is what I

25 assume.

Page 14356

1 Q. Okay, Mr. Davidovic. Anyway, that's what you said on page 9 of

2 the 10th of June. Then --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, Judge Hanoteau would like to ask a

4 question to the witness.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to ask a question to the

7 witness.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, certainly, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: -- [In English] Or rather Mr. Karadzic was aware

10 of his activities -- [Interpretation] When you said that President

11 Karadzic or Krajisnik were aware of his activities, did you mean to say --

12 did you mean that Mr. Krajisnik was not aware? Is that what you meant

13 when you said that and that only Mr. Karadzic knew about it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said "Mr. Krajisnik" and then I

15 said "Mr. Karadzic" as well. Had there been a question like that, a

16 specific question, I would be in a position to say when I found out about

17 it, when I was present, and when I heard these topics being discussed and

18 Arkan and his men being present. When I talked to the Prosecutor, I

19 didn't go into details, nor did they ask me to go into every minute detail

20 as to what I heard where. But since my statement is rather extensive, I

21 had to cover all the places where I'd been. I was not able to go into all

22 the details. And if any clarification is necessary, I'm prepared to give

23 it. And I can go into much greater detail than I did in the statement.

24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. Please go ahead. Could we

25 hear about these details.

Page 14357

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me - and I didn't say

2 this even to the Prosecution when we went to Lukavica, to the barracks

3 where I came upon the request of my minister, Petar Gracanin, to report to

4 Mr. Ratko Mladic and when Mr. Karadzic came. One officer who opened the

5 door - he was probably from Mladic's entourage - said that some Arkan's

6 men were at the Lukavica barracks. They had arrived by car. I know that

7 Ratko Mladic then asked Karadzic, "Who are these men? What's going on?

8 What are they doing here?" And then Karadzic said, "Yes. We have certain

9 arrangements that Arkan, too, should be involved in Sarajevo and help with

10 the effort we had started." That was the end of the conversation. There

11 were no more questions about it in my presence. They moved on to another

12 subject. That's how I know that he knew that Arkan's men were there, at

13 Lukavica and in Sarajevo. And that is something that I did not write in

14 my statement, nor did the Prosecutor ask me about any details.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [No interpretation]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, please proceed.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you.

18 Q. Now, just going back to where we were in relation to an

19 assumption that you made. Then His Honour the Presiding Judge, Judge

20 Orie, asked you some more questions about this. And -- and he said to

21 you: "I assume -- yes, but I have one additional question in this respect

22 if you're finished with it. Mr. Davidovic, one of your earlier answers

23 was -- and I assume that President Krajisnik -- or rather, Mr. Karadzic

24 were aware of his activities." Now you switch from President Krajisnik to

25 Karadzic and then you said "were aware." You didn't say "was aware" but

Page 14358

1 "were aware."

2 And then you -- then in response to that question, you say: "No,

3 I'm not ruling out either of them; without that knowledge -- without that

4 knowledge on the part of them, it would not be possible. I think -- I

5 think both Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic are fully aware of that."

6 And then Judge Orie asks you another question. And he says --

7 and he asks you about whether you have any specific evidence rather than

8 this statement it could not happen without them knowing about it. Then

9 you answer that question by saying that you don't have a single word of

10 praise for Mr. Krajisnik. And let's come to that point. You're actually

11 biassed against Mr. Krajisnik, aren't you?

12 A. No, I'm not biassed, nor do I see why I would be. I'm just

13 trying to clarify certain matters.

14 You've just asked me a lot of questions. If we go one by one, I

15 can answer each and every one of them. But please don't go on for that

16 long and then end with "isn't it" or "aren't you," because you are just

17 looking for me to say what you want to hear.

18 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you, as a police officer, more than anybody know

19 that this Court is trying to get to the truth and that neither you nor I

20 are going to make the ultimate judgement. You know that, don't you? And

21 you know that the Court, to be fully informed, has got to hear both sides

22 of the story. You know that, don't you? So you do understand --

23 A. Of course.

24 Q. It's not a correct position to take. You understand that, don't

25 you?

Page 14359












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14360

1 A. Why? I'm telling you what I know, and I'm answering your

2 questions. And as to what is correct and what is not correct, it is not

3 up to me to say; it is up to the Court.

4 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Davidovic, His Honour the Judge last Friday asks

5 you if you have any information which positively identifies Mr. Krajisnik

6 as being aware of these events. All right? And your response is: "I

7 must the admit I've been asked this before, what can be said about

8 Mr. Krajisnik." And you go on to say, "I have not a single word of praise

9 I can say about Mr. Krajisnik."

10 So when the Judge asks you very specifically about any

11 information that you have, rather than assumption, you answer with, "I

12 have not a single word of praise I can say about Mr. Krajisnik." I'm

13 bound to put this to you and you're bound to disagree.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Closer to the microphone, please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, the interpreters are missing you and --

16 but since you're not wearing your earphones, you don't receive their

17 messages.

18 MS. LOUKAS: I think that the -- well, it certainly made it to

19 the transcript, unless I need to repeat it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No. Ms. Loukas, the interpreters say, "We can't

21 hear you. Microphone, please." But since you are not wearing your

22 earphones, you don't get these messages from the interpreters, and then

23 you do not speak into the microphone.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.


Page 14361

1 MR. HANNIS: I think the interpretation dropped off before she

2 got to her question. Her question does not appear in the transcript. But

3 her question is one that she's already asked and that he already answered,

4 which was: Are you biassed? And he previously answered that question.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Well,--


7 MS. LOUKAS: Well, actually the answer to that question -- well,

8 I'm going to leave that topic alone. It's -- I've got more information to

9 get on with.

10 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Davidovic, that's how you answered that question.

11 His Honour asked you for very specific information, and all you can say is

12 that you don't have a word of praise about Mr. Krajisnik. That's not good

13 enough for a police officer of 20 years, is it?

14 MR. HANNIS: Objection. That's argumentative.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, if we look at the transcript of the 10th

16 of June, you may have noticed that I clearly indicated to the witness that

17 he was not invited to give such a statement.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It was clear to him. And then we went further on

20 whether -- whether he had any specific sources. And we -- I think we

21 ended up in the Bosanska Vila or something like that.

22 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, that's -- that's just a summary of

24 what happened in the transcript.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Yep. Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 14362

1 Q. Okay. Let's move on to page 14. All right? So finally -- His

2 Honour is still asking you questions. He says, "Please be more specific.

3 You said you were sitting with people, waiting for talks on the same topic

4 and you're sitting with what people? You told us Frenki and Arkan. Were

5 you sitting with them?" And you said: "I was at Bosanska Vila with Mico

6 Stanisic, Pero Mihajlovic and Frenki and Arkan was there as well, and so I

7 was present in the course of the talks and it was in the beginning of in

8 1992."

9 And you also indicated at page 14 that Mr. Krajisnik was on the

10 premises of Bosanska Vila. And you gave some further evidence in relation

11 to that. And then Mr. Hannis, after that series of questions,

12 says: "This meeting you were talking about, do you know approximately

13 when it was?" And your answer was: "In the beginning of 1992. It could

14 have been April or May, at Bosanska Vila." All right?

15 Now, Mr. Davidovic, you over 11 days produced a very detailed

16 statement. Do you want to tell me where in your statement that piece of

17 information is, or does the Prosecution want to concede that it does not

18 appear in his statement, to shorten proceedings?

19 MR. HANNIS: May I inquire specifically -- are we talking about a

20 meeting in Bosanska Vila with these individuals?


22 MR. HANNIS: That does not appear in his statement.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you, then, may move on.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. So you give evidence that Mr. Krajisnik is at Bosanska Vila with

Page 14363

1 Arkan. This is what you tell this Court last Friday. That's just simply

2 not the truth, Mr. Davidovic, is it?

3 A. I don't know why it wouldn't be.

4 Q. Well, you've heard the Prosecution concede that it's not in your

5 statement that took -- your very detailed statement that took 11 days to

6 put together. You simply did not tell the Prosecution about this very

7 significant event; correct?

8 A. I don't know why it is supposed to be so significant. I answered

9 to questions put to me. There's a whole range of issues in which I did

10 not provide details or did not answer questions that were not put to me by

11 the investigator. And even what I did say sometimes was too much. But I

12 simply answered the questions that were put to me.

13 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you are deliberately -- you gave deliberately

14 false evidence about Mr. Krajisnik being in a meeting with Arkan at

15 Bosanska Vila.

16 A. I think that this statement, that I gave a full statement, is

17 something that is inadmissible. And the way you are putting it to me is

18 less than fair. I really don't like being treated like this, and I don't

19 like you to talk to me like this. I think there's no reason for that

20 whatsoever. I'm simply telling you what I did and where I was, and don't

21 push me to saying something that is not true.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Davidovic, Ms. Loukas is entitled to put to you

23 that she doesn't believe you, that she thinks that you're not speaking the

24 truth, and she may ask those questions.

25 Ms. Loukas, you've done so two or three times. You received the

Page 14364

1 answers. You may move on.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just ask for Ms. Loukas not

4 to insult me and not to tell me that I'm telling lies. These are serious

5 words, and I don't like it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Davidovic, Ms. Loukas is entitled to ask

7 these questions. She will have her own reasons why she doesn't believe

8 you. Finally it is the Chamber who will make the determination of what

9 the truth is. That is part of the type of proceedings that there are in

10 this Tribunal. It's a way of saying "I don't believe you. Would it not

11 be different from what you said." That's a specific form in which this is

12 put to you. Don't feel insulted, but just concentrate on whether you're

13 certain about your answers you've given before or whether there's any

14 doubt or whether they may be wrong.

15 Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour

17 I'm just wondering if we can take an early break at this point.

18 There's just a further matter I need to confirm with my case manager and

19 Mr. Krajisnik at this point.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We can have an early break.

21 We'll adjourn until 20 minutes to 11.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.44 a.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, please proceed.

25 Oh, we have no witness yet, yes.

Page 14365

1 MS. LOUKAS: There's no witness, Your Honour.

2 I'm happy to make it a one-woman show.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Unfortunately, I have to deny you that

4 pleasure.

5 Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, please proceed.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, I just wanted to take you back to some

10 evidence you gave on the 9th of June. That is at page 95, for the Court.

11 And again, His Honour the Presiding Judge, His Honour Judge Orie, was

12 asking you some questions. And he said this: "So the basis of that

13 knowledge is what Vojkan Djurkovic told you, and you said, 'He used to say

14 publicly that he was taking the money to Pale to Karadzic and Krajisnik.'

15 And then you said: 'And he did it in person.' Is that what he told you,

16 or is that what you observed yourself?"

17 And you answer was: "He told me himself, and I heard it on a

18 number of occasions when other people were talking ..."

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please read slower, thank

20 you.

21 MS. LOUKAS: I take on board the -- the directive from the

22 interpreters to read a little slower.

23 And that is -- did the interpreters get the last bit or should I

24 repeat it?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Please repeat it. Thank you.

Page 14366

1 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd look at the transcript, you'll see where it

2 stops. Perhaps you'd take the whole quote again, Ms. Loukas.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, I think so, Your Honour.

4 Q. So His Honour asked you this question: "So the basis of that

5 knowledge is what Vojkan Djurkovic told you, and you said, 'He used to say

6 publicly that he was taking the money to Pale to Karadzic and Krajisnik.'

7 And then you said: 'And he did it in person.' Is that what he told you,

8 or is that what you observed yourself?"

9 And your response was: "He told me himself, and I heard it on a

10 number of occasions when other people were talking about it."

11 And His Honour asked you: "These other people, could you mention

12 their names?"

13 And you gave some names. "For example, a man who is in

14 Bijeljina, Dusko Marjanovic, he's a lawyer there today. Then Gavrilovic,

15 someone who was in charge of a unit during the war. The people from MUP,

16 who were also involved and who witnessed that. And there were some

17 officers there as well."

18 Now, just in relation to that particular aspect, our

19 investigators, Mr. Davidovic, since you gave that evidence have had the

20 opportunity to speak with Mr. Gavrilovic, and he in fact denies that that

21 was said in his presence. Does that in any way -- and I'm offering you

22 this opportunity now. I'm offering you an opportunity to reconsider your

23 evidence in that regard, that Mr. Gavrilovic was present when this

24 statement was made by Mr. Djurkovic.

25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour.

Page 14367


2 MR. HANNIS: I'd like to object to this form of question at this

3 point. I'm not even sure that we're talking about the same

4 Mr. Gavrilovic. I don't know the circumstances under which he was asked

5 this question. I don't think it's very helpful to the Trial Chamber.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, ultimately, of course, in the

7 Defence case Your Honours will be hearing from the gentleman in question,

8 and I'm offering the witness the opportunity to reconsider his evidence in

9 that regard.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. I think it's fair that

12 it's put to this witness that the Defence has spoken to a person by the

13 name of Gavrilovic who denies that he was present when this was told.

14 MR. HANNIS: My point is, Your Honour, in his evidence this

15 witness just referred to the name of Gavrilovic as somebody who commanded

16 a unit in the war. I don't know what Gavrilovic they're talking about,

17 whether he commanded a unit and whether it's the same person.


19 MS. LOUKAS: Well, I'm happy to ask --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Either you further clarify that. Or the worst

21 that could happen, Mr. Hannis, is that it is another Mr. Gavrilovic and

22 then, of course, we would find out at a later stage that there was a

23 mistake.


25 Q. Do you remember Mr. Gavrilovic's first name?

Page 14368












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14369

1 A. I think Blago. I know his family name is Gavrilovic. I think

2 it's Blago. But he did not only tell me about that but he gave me a whole

3 range of other essential details. And if you'll allow me, I'll tell you.

4 It was precisely in my conversation with him that I found out about the

5 way in which Muslims were being taken to his area of responsibility and

6 where his battalion was. He was present when events took place, when

7 these people were taken there from Bijeljina and how they were standing

8 there in this no man's land. And of course I'm not denying this. I can

9 state once again that he did say that and I can give you names of a couple

10 of more people who were adamant that this was the way things were done.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Davidovic, first I'd like to draw your attention

12 to the fact that at this moment the subject of the question is not what

13 Mr. Gavrilovic told you but whether Mr. Gavrilovic was present at certain

14 events.

15 Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Now, as I indicated to you previously, our investigators since

18 you gave that evidence have had the opportunity to speak to

19 Mr. Gavrilovic. In fact, a Mr. Blagoje Gavrilovic. And I offered you the

20 opportunity to reconsider your evidence in light of that. Do you

21 reconsider your evidence in light of that, Mr. Davidovic?

22 A. There's no need for that. I can reiterate my statement from

23 before. I am still claiming that he was present.

24 Q. Okay. Now, this other person that you mentioned, Mr. Dusko

25 Marjanovic, now, he's a friend of yours, isn't he?

Page 14370

1 A. I don't understand what you mean.

2 Q. Is Dusko Marjanovic a friend of yours?

3 A. I have many friends, many people I know, and Dusko is one of

4 them. I've known him for a long time, since childhood.

5 Q. Okay. That's all the question was: He's a friend of yours. So

6 he's a friend of yours, yes?

7 A. Dusko Marjanovic is a security officer for Gavrilovic's unit. If

8 you are asking a question with regard to their relationship, he was the

9 security officer and Gavrilovic was the commander of the unit. Is that

10 what you're referring to?

11 JUDGE ORIE: No, there's no question about the relationship

12 between Mr. Gavrilovic and this Mr. Marjanovic. The question is simply

13 whether Mr. Marjanovic is a friend of yours. And perhaps, because it

14 seemed that you are struggling a bit with it, you could specify in your

15 answer close friend, friend, acquaintance, someone you happen to know.

16 That's the whole range of -- please try to answer the question as good as

17 you can what your relationship with Mr. Marjanovic in these terms was.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I was trying to say.

19 It's a bit difficult to describe it properly. Is it a close friend,

20 somebody I'm seeing on a daily basis, or somebody I see only occasionally?

21 What I was trying to say is that I've known him since childhood. We used

22 to be friends as children, and we do know one another now, because I do

23 see him almost every day, but we're not close friends in terms of spending

24 time together every day. We encounter each other, but we are not that

25 close.

Page 14371

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, on to another topic. Your evidence on the

4 10th of June on page 34, you indicated in response to a question from the

5 Prosecution: "As far as I know, representatives from the -- a

6 representative from the republican party parliament, Micic, told me that

7 they had discussed the matter at the republican parliament and they wanted

8 an example to be set with regard to confronting these paramilitary

9 formations. However, they nevertheless decided that I should be prevented

10 from taking further action and a request was made for me to withdraw."

11 Now, just in relation to your evidence on that topic, which

12 Mr. Micic are you talking about there? What's the first name of the man

13 you're talking about there?

14 A. Dragan Micic.

15 Q. Now, that was, of course, a reference to something that's also

16 contained in your statement. And this is in relation to the 20th Session

17 of the National Assembly of Republika Srpska held on the 14th and 15th of

18 September, 1992 in Bijeljina.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, could you please guide us by numbers.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour.

21 If I might have a moment, Your Honour.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be 158? Is it there where we are?

24 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, I think Your Honour is correct. Unfortunately

25 the Post-It with which I'd marked it disappeared.

Page 14372

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll find our way.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.

3 Q. Now, in any event, it's a reference to something that's contained

4 within your statement.

5 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour, that's not actually the specific

6 paragraph I was --

7 JUDGE ORIE: No. That's where the name is mentioned but it's not

8 the correct paragraph.

9 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Our legal officer says that 99 makes a better

11 chance.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I'm much obliged to

13 your legal officer.



16 Q. So in paragraph 99 of your statement you indicate that you

17 remained in Bijeljina for a while longer and the Bijeljina Municipal

18 Assembly then passed a resolution which demanded that I be expelled from

19 Bijeljina."

20 Now, just in relation to your evidence on that topic -- yes, and

21 you gave that answer that I've read out to you at page 34 of the

22 transcript.

23 Now, Mr. Davidovic, you were in fact not mentioned at the 20th

24 Assembly Session. And I'm happy to show you a copy of the notes from that

25 session, and that is the stenographic note, not just the minutes, in your

Page 14373

1 language.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.

3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that's something that we don't have.

4 We would like to have a copy of that, if we may.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, neither do we have.

6 And apart from that, the -- you're saying the 20th Session. Was

7 that only one in that month, or is there any other? I might have

8 overlooked something.

9 MS. LOUKAS: No, there's only that one session. The previous

10 session, Your Honour, was in August and the subsequent session was in

11 October. There was only one session in September.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I didn't check that at this moment.

13 Well, Mr. Hannis says that he hasn't got this material.

14 Ms. Loukas, how are we going to proceed with that?

15 MS. LOUKAS: Well, I'm -- I understand that, Your Honour. I have

16 the 20th Session. I'm happy to place it before the witness so he can see

17 if he can find a reference to himself. And then --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We're not going to ask him to go through the

19 stenographic notes for the whole of the -- now right away, isn't it?

20 Otherwise we could take a break for another 20 minutes.

21 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour. I'm happy for this to be -- I will

22 be tendering this as an exhibit and the Prosecution can make their own

23 translation.

24 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, I'm happy to look at it and if it

25 doesn't appear in there, I'm happy to stipulate to that. The point is

Page 14374

1 this witness has not testified that he was at the session and heard it

2 said. He testified that he was told that by Mr. Micic.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That certainly is the -- I think, Ms. Loukas, we do

4 not disagree that there's no claim of this witness, at least not in this

5 statement that he was present. But he says allegedly and -- so therefore

6 would it not be wiser -- I mean, apart from asking the witness now to --

7 to go through a lengthy document -- to see whether perhaps later today the

8 Prosecution and Defence could sit together and see whether there's any

9 reference to it. I mean, Mr. Hannis, you might have someone available who

10 speaks and reads some B/C/S and -- go through it and see whether at all

11 the subject, whether or not with the name or without name, is mentioned

12 there before we ask anyone to -- to have it all translated. Especially,

13 Ms. Loukas, if the parties agree that neither the subject in any more

14 detail than in the minutes, nor the name is mentioned by just a brief

15 inspection of that material, would it be of any assistance to have it all

16 translated in order to make sure that it's not -- I mean, the parties

17 could stipulate on that.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. And I'm happy to do that.


20 MS. LOUKAS: I mean, the problem, of course, is that this

21 material arrives at the last minute. The witness is placed on the list at

22 the last moment. Our investigators are working over the weekend trying to

23 obtain material.


25 MS. LOUKAS: It's -- as you know, Your Honour.

Page 14375


2 MS. LOUKAS: The Defence team is placed under particularly

3 constrained circumstances in that regard.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's also the reason why I'm trying to

5 resolve this matter, rather than to ask the witness to read a perhaps

6 80-page document.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.


9 MS. LOUKAS: But the document is there. It's available. And

10 Your Honour's suggestion is taken on board. And it is a sensible

11 suggestion.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hannis, I take it you would agree with

13 that.

14 MR. HANNIS: Yes. If we can have a copy. We'll get with the

15 language assistant and have a look through it and decide whether it needs

16 to be interpreted and what we can agree to.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed, Ms. Loukas.


19 Q. Nevertheless, Mr. Davidovic, you would of course concede that

20 it's very dangerous to rely on statements of other people in relation to

21 matters that you have not witnessed yourself; correct?

22 A. I don't know what you mean. What is very dangerous? I stand by

23 what I said. Somebody may challenge it, but that's their own affair.

24 Q. As a -- as a police officer, you know -- as an experienced police

25 officer, you know the danger of relying on statements made by other people

Page 14376

1 about what was said to somebody else, as opposed to you being present,

2 witnessing or hearing something. You understand that distinction, don't

3 you?

4 A. I understand the difference, but I'm trying to answer the

5 questions you asked me that are covered in my statement. If you put a

6 specific question to me, I will answer it. I can take somebody's

7 statement and maybe it won't check out. I'm sure if you bring Dragan

8 Micic, he will be able to confirm this one.

9 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Davidovic, our investigators have also had the

10 opportunity to speak to Mr. Micic.

11 A. Yes, I do. I have.

12 Q. And I'll come back to that topic later. But what I want to come

13 to now is this: Mr. Davidovic, you are a criminal. I take it you deny

14 that?

15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object to that form of the question.

16 If there's a specific criminal offence that she says he's charged with,

17 she should ask him about that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, could you please --

19 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- put it to the witness in a way that he at least

21 understands exactly what you're saying.

22 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, what do you call a person who uses his

24 position and police affiliations and under cover of his job transported

25 Muslims from Bijeljina for money? What do you call that person? Is that

Page 14377












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14378

1 person a criminal?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, it seems that you want to confront the

3 witness with certain behaviour. Certainly that might assist the Chamber.

4 But to put these questions in terms of whether you're a criminal or not, I

5 mean, that's a qualification which --

6 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I'm interested in his opinion as a

7 police officer.


9 MS. LOUKAS: Before I proceed to --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please confront the witness with the fact

11 you want to confront him with. And then if at a later stage there's any

12 need to hear the opinion of this witness about the criminal character of

13 the behaviour you confronted him with, then we'll see whether that would

14 still assist the Chamber.

15 Please proceed.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you used your position and your police

18 affiliations under cover of your job to transport Muslims from Bijeljina

19 for money. What do you say about that?

20 A. This is a very heavy accusation, and these insults are very

21 serious. I'm finding it hard to believe that this is actually happening.

22 But let me say this: It is true that whenever I had the opportunity,

23 whenever somebody asked me, I would help people - first of all, my

24 friends - and accompany them to Serbia and facilitate sheltering them. It

25 is true that whenever I was in a position to do so, I helped anyone who

Page 14379

1 asked me. And I would ask you to tell me the name of a single Muslim who

2 ever gave me any sum of money or anything that could be qualified as

3 material assistance. Tell me the name of a single man who bought me as

4 much as a cup of coffee for the help I gave them. And while you're at it,

5 you might also mention what motivated me in helping those people. Calling

6 somebody a criminal because they wanted to save another person's life is

7 terrible. Those people had no other choice than to flee and to seek

8 shelter elsewhere. That was their only chance. We're talking about the

9 period when the war was only starting and people were being brutally taken

10 away either to camps or towards the border to be killed by night. That

11 you should call me a criminal for trying to save those people is beyond

12 the pale.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, in your answer, you indicated, "I would ask

14 you to tell me the name of a single Muslim who ever gave me any sum of

15 money or anything that could be qualified as material assistance. Tell me

16 the name of a single man ..." Now, I will take up that invitation.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Edib Hujdurovic.

19 A. Hujdurovic. Yes. What is it about?

20 Q. Married to Jasminka?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And a veterinarian?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You indicated that he was in mortal danger from Drago Vukovic and

25 you offered your protection and promised to get him out of Bijeljina for

Page 14380

1 money, which you did. Now, please give the Court your response to that.

2 A. I will tell you in detail. Edib Hujdurovic is my kum. I was in

3 Belgrade when I heard from his wife Jasminka that he had been taken away

4 from the shop where he was working as a shop assistant. It was a

5 veterinarian shop, selling medicine and other supplies for animals. He

6 was taken away in broad daylight. He was brutally beaten up in the middle

7 of the street. He was beaten so badly that he was starting to spit blood.

8 He was taken away. Nobody knows where. When Jasminka Hujdurovic asked

9 me - and I know her very well too. She used to be a judge in Bijeljina -

10 I came to Bijeljina - it was a Friday - to see what it was all about. I

11 found out that Edib was gone and that he had been taken away from his

12 home. I went to the police to make inquiries to find out where he is.

13 They wouldn't tell me anything.

14 I have to tell you one thing though: When what happened

15 happened, Jasminka came to my home and asked me to get in touch with her,

16 and she wanted somebody from my family to accompany her, my father,

17 mother, or son, because she was afraid for her life. She wanted to go and

18 find Mauzer to get him to bring her husband back. My son went with her to

19 the headquarters of Ljubisa Mauzer, and there in the headquarters, among

20 other people, there was Commander Simic, who is now general, and some

21 other people.

22 When my son arrived together with Jasminka, Mauzer summoned him

23 first. He said, "You, boy, come in." He was 17 years old at the time.

24 Mauzer then took a portable radio and hit him on the head with it, and he

25 said, "Why ever did you come here together with this balija woman and

Page 14381

1 where is your commie father now?"

2 When I came to Bijeljina, I found out that Edib Hujdurovic was

3 first taken to the abandoned schoolhouse at Hase, where he spent some

4 time, and then later that evening he was brought to the football pitch in

5 Lopare, where he was locked in the changing rooms, or rather, in the

6 toilet of that building.

7 I have to mention that I was born in Lopare and I have family

8 there. So I managed through a doctor and a man who was together with that

9 doctor to get them to see Hujdurovic, to check his physical condition,

10 because we knew he had been beaten and that he had been bleeding and we

11 were afraid that that would seriously and permanently affect his health,

12 because he had already undergone one operation and he had one kidney left.

13 The doctor with the driver went to the football pitch and found

14 Edib Hujdurovic lying on the tile floor in the toilet with nothing

15 underneath. They noticed haematomas all over his body, and they reported

16 back to me that he was in a very serious condition. That doctor even

17 wanted it put on record by the person who was in charge of that camp.

18 I learned about that, and I begged the doctor to find a way to

19 transfer him to the medical centre in Bijeljina, and he was indeed

20 transferred by an ambulance. He was admitted to the department of surgery

21 by a Dr. Popovic, Milenko Popovic, a surgeon. And when this surgeon saw

22 him, he said that he needed continued treatment because he already had one

23 kidney missing and that treatment had to be administered in Belgrade. He

24 made a medical record of that, and that is part of the official record,

25 after which I drove Edib to Belgrade. And I have to say that I had never

Page 14382

1 seen anybody who had been beaten up worse than he was. He had so many

2 external injuries. I had never seen the like of it.

3 I showed him first to my colleagues in my brigade and used the

4 official car to drive him to the military medical academy in Belgrade, and

5 I found there a doctor who had previously worked in Bijeljina, a

6 Dr. Skataric. I asked this doctor to examine Edib, which he did. He gave

7 him the necessary medication, and he said he had to be -- he had to lie

8 down and to stay in a recumbent position but he could not hospitalise him

9 at the military medical academy. So I brought him back to Bijeljina,

10 where I found a place for him.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: I brought him back

12 to my apartment in Belgrade.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then a request came from

14 Bijeljina, a dispatch, saying that I had taken Edib Hujdurovic to Belgrade

15 personally, that I had put him up in my own flat, that I was assisting

16 Muslims. And I am not ashamed of confirming that. I am proud of that. I

17 believe that I helped as many people as I was able to. After which, both

18 Edib and I were taken to the SUP, the Secretariat of the Interior, to be

19 questioned. And the main questions they asked, they kept asking, were

20 whether he paid me or whether I profited in any way from giving him that

21 service.

22 Mr. Edib Hujdurovic and his wife live in Sarajevo, can confirm

23 that not only did they not pay me any money but I gave him some money for

24 the most basic expenses. The day I brought Hujdurovic to the military

25 medical academy, I also took him to the International Red Cross office in

Page 14383

1 Belgrade, and he was interviewed about the whole thing by somebody from

2 the international community. I don't remember the name of the man. I

3 wrote an official note about that to report to my superior officer all the

4 details.

5 Edib Hujdurovic was taken by the police to Sremska Mitrovica,

6 where he was beaten by Sremska Mitrovica policemen at the SUP, and they

7 kept saying, "Tell us, did you give Mico anything? Did you give him any

8 money?" And they were trying to get him to say that he had paid me. And

9 when he wouldn't say that, they continued beating him.

10 The second day, which is the third day after we came to Belgrade,

11 they returned him to Bijeljina, turned him over to the SUP, to the police,

12 and that was when Drago Vukovic, chief of the secret police, and Predrag

13 Jesuric, took him to his home, demanding from his father to sign away his

14 house and his property to their friend from Tuzla, who was in fact

15 Mauzer's uncle, in exchange for Edib's release.

16 At 1.00 a.m. at night Edib's father signed in front of the

17 registrar, whom they had brought by night, a document signing away his

18 house and property, and in exchange for that Edib, his wife, and his

19 children received passports. Mauzer put them all in his car, drove them

20 to Belgrade -- in fact, not all the way to Belgrade but just across the

21 border. And from then on they went by another car.

22 After seeing them off, Mauzer gave them 100 Deutschmark as thanks.

23 He was cautioned not to call me when he came to Serbia for the second

24 time, but he still called me, and I brought him up to date on everything

25 that had happened since he had been taken away from my flat. And I can

Page 14384

1 state with full responsibility that everything I stated had to do with the

2 help that I genuinely extended to help the people who needed it, to save

3 the Muslims. And this is just an example of the things that were done to

4 them and the objective that was pursued in doing so, and that is why I

5 view any claim that I received money for it as extremely insolent and out

6 of place.

7 There are many, many Muslims in Bijeljina who wanted to save

8 their skins and asked me to help them, and I did wherever I could.

9 However, after this incident involving Edib Hujdurovic, the police from

10 Bijeljina searched my house, maltreated my parents and my family, and from

11 that time on I was under constant surveillance by the police and

12 individual policemen, who followed my every move and every contact I had

13 in Bijeljina, so that at the time it was very dangerous for anyone to be

14 in touch with me, because they thought of me as a man who was spreading

15 information beyond Bijeljina, telling people what was going on and they

16 considered me a danger.

17 I would now, however, like to hear from this lady on what basis

18 she's claiming that I did what I did for money. Mr. Edib Hujdurovic and

19 his wife had been abroad in the meantime. They are back in Sarajevo now,

20 and they, too, can have their say. As for me, I can only be proud of the

21 fact that I always helped people, wherever and whenever I could.


23 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Davidovic. So you deny that you took money

24 in those circumstances; correct?

25 A. Absolutely and categorically so.

Page 14385

1 Q. Now, you also mention in your answer that you wrote an official

2 note about that "to report to my superior officer all the details." Now,

3 when did you write that note?

4 A. On the very day that I got to Belgrade.

5 Q. And to whom did you address the report to specifically?

6 A. The assistant, Spasoje Bogdanovic.

7 Q. And do you have a copy of that report?

8 A. I don't think so, but I can check it out. Because afterwards,

9 when proceedings were underway, I had the opportunity to see everything

10 that individuals from Bijeljina wrote when they were claiming the same

11 thing that you are claiming, and that's precisely the group that was

12 involved in ethnic cleansing in the area of Bijeljina.

13 Q. Now, okay, so you didn't keep a copy of the report yourself and

14 you don't remember who you sent the report to specifically; is that

15 correct? The name of the --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, the first part of your question

17 misstates the --

18 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, yes. It was Spasoje Bogdanovic. Thank you,

19 Your Honour.

20 Q. Did you address this report to anybody else or just to him? Did

21 copies go anywhere else?

22 A. Yes. I addressed it to him on the first day that I came to

23 Belgrade, and he or the federal SUP will have the relevant documents, and

24 I have kept a copy but I don't think I have it now.

25 Q. Just going back to reports. You'll recall earlier today I was

Page 14386












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14387

1 asking you about the documents that you had in Belgrade, and there was a

2 search of your apartment in 1995, and a certificate was left for you in

3 relation to the material that had been taken. Do you have a copy of that

4 certificate?

5 A. I do. I submitted it to the Prosecutor. It says: "Documents

6 taken in relation to activities in Bosnia and Herzegovina." They did not

7 list every individual document, but I had it all in a folder and it was

8 all there, in relation to all those events.

9 Q. Now, just in relation to your answer on that point, in response

10 to Judge Hanoteau's question on the 9th of June at page 81 and page 82,

11 you indicated that "They issued a certificate which showed that they had

12 taken items that were of interest to the Davidovic case in Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina."

14 What did you mean when you said "the Davidovic case in Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina"?

16 A. That was in the interest of the service in Belgrade.

17 Q. So when you said "the Davidovic case," you were not referring to

18 a court case. You just meant the matter of Davidovic. Is that a correct

19 understanding of your evidence?

20 A. Well, this dossier, that folder that was taken out of my flat,

21 was taken, and the reference was to Davidovic's activities in Bosnia. I

22 think that was the exact wording. It is an entire folder, as I said.

23 About 100 documents in the folder.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, just going on to another topic.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to put a question. And at

Page 14388

1 the same time, Ms. Loukas, you are closer to the microphone that's off

2 than to the one that's on.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, yes.

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. Witness, you did talk to

5 us in quite a lot of detail about this veterinary surgeon, and in fact I

6 would like you to give us some explanation. Why was he found on the

7 street in the state that you have described? In fact, why was he beaten

8 up? What did you find out about this? What information did you gather

9 about this?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said that he was beaten up

11 in the street, what happened was that he was dragged out of his shop, from

12 the shop which was still publicly owned, as it were, at the time, at

13 3.00 p.m., and he was brutally beaten both within the shop and outside in

14 the street. And it was owned by passers-by. There was a great deal of

15 shouting and screaming. It is close to the market where it's always

16 rather crowded, and there were women screaming. But that was only one of

17 the cases that I referred to. I mean, I talked about Edib Hujdurovic, but

18 it was common practice for them to pick up Muslims from their homes, from

19 their jobs during the day and during the night. And even from their jobs,

20 as I said, and very few of them actually had jobs at the time. And for

21 the simple reason that they were Muslims and they had stayed in Bijeljina,

22 and they tried to create the preconditions for other people who had come

23 from other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina to be housed in their houses.

24 Hujdurovic was one of the last ones who had been taken out of Bijeljina

25 because -- I think this was in 1994, and a huge number of Muslims had

Page 14389

1 already been deported before that. About 10.000 people had been

2 forcefully deported from Bijeljina.

3 As to Hujdurovic, I must give you another quite interesting piece

4 of information. The Hujdurovic family was an old bourgeois family. For

5 hundreds of years they had lived in Bijeljina. And it's a family where

6 everyone went to school, were well-educated, went to university. And when

7 initially they first started with this ethnic cleansing of Muslims and

8 chasing them away from Bijeljina, what they cared about was for respected

9 citizens to perhaps stay. So that was a kind of showcase for anyone from

10 the outside to see that not all the Muslims had gone; for example, that

11 famous and well-known family Hujdurovic was still there.

12 And since they were well-respected in town -- I'm going to give

13 you another detail. When World War II broke out in Bijeljina and when the

14 Ustasha and the Germans came and took the city of Bijeljina, the Ustasha

15 wanted to demolish the Orthodox church in Bijeljina. At that point, a

16 group of respected Muslim citizens of Bijeljina rose up and defended the

17 interest of Serbs and they said, "Don't do it. These people are our

18 neighbours. Don't demolish their church, because we'd rather you killed

19 us rather than demolish the building, the church." And the Ustasha killed

20 Hujdurovic Edib's grandfather on that occasion in 1941 for the simple

21 reason that he opposed the destruction of the Serb church. And then in

22 1994, those same Serbs -- of course not all of the Serbs but certain Serb

23 individuals engaged in such brutal behaviour at the expense of his

24 grandson and deported him from Bijeljina.

25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [No interpretation]

Page 14390

1 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Davidovic. Now, just going back to another matter

3 in your evidence. At page 76 of the transcript of the 10th of June, for

4 the benefit of the Court, you gave some evidence there about -- now I'll

5 just remind you of it. This is at page 75 and going on to page 76. First

6 of all --

7 A. I don't think I have that.

8 Q. No. No. I'm quoting to you from the evidence that you gave last

9 Friday, not from your statement, Mr. Davidovic. You stated this - and

10 I'll read slowly so that I don't make it difficult for the interpreters -

11 it was in relation to matters that are contained within paragraph 158 of

12 your statement, but leaving that aside, we're actually going to the

13 evidence that you gave on this topic.

14 You say: "First of all, I must say that I had that conflict with

15 Djurkovic only after I had left Bijeljina with my unit. That was one

16 weekend when I came to Bijeljina. I cycled to town -- or rather, I went

17 to a certain place, and when Djurkovic saw me, he stopped and he started

18 asking me who I was, who I thought I was, why I was trying to prevent them

19 from doing what they were doing. He said he was the only person who had

20 the authority to do what he was doing. There was a tense situation when

21 he said, 'Who authorised you to act in such a way?' And then he showed me

22 this document, and it said that Djurkovic from Bijeljina had been

23 authorised to resettle people in a humane way, and it said that they

24 shouldn't be obstructed and it said that the president of the Assembly in

25 the heading of the document, and there was Krajisnik's signature."

Page 14391

1 Now, first of all, Mr. Davidovic, I put it to you that there was

2 no such document as you've indicated in your evidence. Now, there's no

3 need to repeat all your evidence again in that regard. I'm putting a

4 matter to you, which you can either confirm or deny. Do you understand?

5 A. Yes, of course I can confirm what I've said before, and I can add

6 further details if you are interested in that respect.

7 Q. Now, further on in your evidence, on page 76, you indicated that

8 you spoke to Dragoljub Micic. And -- and he said: "I can't confront

9 that. I'm familiar with that very same document," and he said that he had

10 heard -- he said, "Mr. Krajisnik had been told about this and Krajisnik

11 replied that he should not meddle. That's all I can say about that."

12 Do you recall the -- the part of your evidence that I'm talking

13 about?

14 A. [No audible response]

15 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, our investigators have had an opportunity to

16 speak to Mr. Micic about the evidence that you've given, and he indicates

17 that -- that it's incorrect to say that he had any discussions with

18 Mr. Krajisnik of this nature. Now, again, I'm providing you with the

19 opportunity to reconsider your evidence in light of the fact that Mr. --

20 Mr. Micic has been spoken to.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.

22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, my objection is that this witness has

23 said Mr. Micic said he spoke with Krajisnik. Now, Mr. Micic is saying --


25 MR. HANNIS: -- he didn't. He's not saying he didn't tell

Page 14392

1 Mr. Davidovic that he had spoken with him.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, I noticed this matter. But let's --

3 let's -- of course, that is suggested more or less. I have not been

4 present.

5 Mr. Davidovic, the -- Ms. Loukas has told you that the

6 investigators have spoken to Mr. Micic, who denies that what you told us

7 that he told you has happened. Ms. Loukas wants to know from you whether

8 this information changes your mind in any way as to the correctness of

9 your testimony where you said that Mr. Micic told you that Mr. Krajisnik

10 had been told about this and Krajisnik replied that he should not meddle.

11 Does the information give you any reason to review your --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to confirm once again I have

13 no reason whatsoever to change anything. I stick by my previous

14 statement. Mr. Micic told me in person that he saw that document. He

15 said he talked to Mr. Krajisnik, and he said that Mr. Krajisnik told him

16 not to interfere. Please, you can't even expect Mr. Dragan Micic to say

17 anything else because he's a member of the Serb Democratic Party in

18 parliament, and it's the same group of people doing all that. So I don't

19 expect him to try and -- I don't know. If he is a truthful man, he will

20 confirm it. If he doesn't want to say that, it's his right. But I'm only

21 saying this because he said it to me himself and he said he disagreed but

22 he could not influence this in any way and he couldn't change it.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, please proceed.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I'm about to move on

25 to another topic, and there's some other material that I need to check

Page 14393

1 with Mr. Krajisnik, and in those circumstances I'm just wondering if we

2 could take the next break at this point.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We would, then, have a long last session because --

4 MS. LOUKAS: A very long last session, Your Honour, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- if we would have a break now, we would resume at

6 quarter past 12.00 and it would take us one hour and a half for the

7 last -- until quarter to 2.00.

8 We'll adjourn until quarter past 12.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just prior to the witness --


13 MS. LOUKAS: -- coming in, I might indicate that I am in the

14 process of still receiving material and confirming material and analysing

15 material from the investigators. Your Honour, there's no question that I

16 would be able to complete my cross-examination. It would require this

17 witness having to come back again.

18 JUDGE ORIE: When for the first time have you started enquiring

19 into the -- well, I would say, the background and the -- of this witness,

20 Ms. Loukas?

21 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, the information that this witness

22 was to be called, I think, came in April. Your Honours are aware that

23 there was an application --

24 JUDGE ORIE: If I was a witness, you would say this is not an

25 answer to my question. I mean, you are now pointing at when you heard for

Page 14394

1 the first time. My question was simply when did you send out the first --

2 MS. LOUKAS: Notice to the investigators?


4 MS. LOUKAS: I need to confirm the precise date, Your Honour.

5 Because I think the application was made by the Prosecution and we didn't

6 receive the actual statement of the witness until sometime subsequent to

7 that. And I will just confirm the exact dates.

8 [Defence counsel confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, could you assist the Defence? Do you

10 know when the --

11 MR. HANNIS: We're checking to see if we can give you that

12 information.

13 JUDGE ORIE: To see whether you come to the same date, yes.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I can indicate that my instructions are

15 that the -- I think some material became forthcoming after, I think, the

16 statement was made available by the Prosecution, but then, of course,

17 other inquiries had to be made and inquiries continued and, of course,

18 inquiries in relation to other witnesses are occurring simultaneously. So

19 I think there's been a real juggling of priorities in relation to this

20 particular witness on the part of the investigation team. And

21 additionally, of course, the actual date when the witness was to be on the

22 witness schedule was relatively recent in itself. And I stand to be

23 corrected by the Prosecution as to precisely when the Defence were told

24 that this new viva voce witness was actually going to be before the Court.

25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it appears that the statement was

Page 14395












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14396

1 disclosed at the same time we made the filing to add this witness, which

2 was on the 7th of April.

3 As to the first time we gave them notice of a potential date for

4 his appearance, I can't tell you that right now because that's changed so

5 many times I have to go back and consult e-mails and my colleagues to

6 figure out when that was.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please try to find out and inform the Chamber

8 about it, whether it will be you, Mr. Hannis, or you, Ms. Loukas.

9 Then I've got a question before we continue with the witness, and

10 that's of a totally different nature, although, it's related to the issue

11 you just raised, is: Who would be the next witness? Because last week

12 there was some -- there were some observations where the Chamber invited

13 the parties to --

14 MR. HANNIS: [Microphone not activated]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 636 would be the next one. And ...

16 MS. LOUKAS: And I can indicate, Your Honour, that Mr. Stewart

17 will be dealing with that witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.

19 And then, Ms. Loukas, since the witness is not here at this

20 moment, you -- you -- you had a line of questioning about receiving money

21 for transportation of Muslims. Will the Chamber hear now or in the

22 further future more about that? Because it ...

23 MS. LOUKAS: [Microphone not activated] Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

24 Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. We'll then wait for that and --

Page 14397

1 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

2 courtroom.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Davidovic, Ms. Loukas will continue her

5 cross-examination.

6 You may proceed, Ms. Loukas.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, I'm just going back to your statement, which

9 I think you have before you. Now, just in relation to paragraph 11, you

10 indicate there that there were some 25 members of the local SDS Main Board

11 in Bijeljina, a political party which was seen as being made up of

12 criminals, primitives, the uneducated, and menial workers. And you

13 mention some names there, including Dr. Novakovic. Now, are you saying

14 that Dr. Novakovic is a criminal or a primitive or an uneducated or a

15 menial worker?

16 A. If I may, when I read the statement when I came here to The Hague

17 and I mentioned this to the Prosecutor, I -- what I meant was the main

18 committee that took the initiative and set up the party. And for the most

19 part people who were members were primitive people, simple, uneducated.

20 But I'm not saying that Mr. -- Dr. Novakovic is an uneducated person. But

21 he was an alcoholic, an ex-alcoholic, who had been treated on a number of

22 occasions as such in hospital, and in the environment that he lived in he

23 enjoyed no respect at all. If this is what you want to know. I mean, if

24 you're asking me about this person in particular.

25 Q. Yes. I'm asking you about the statement you've made in your

Page 14398

1 statement.

2 Now, how about Boro Cosovic? Are you saying that he's a

3 criminal, a primitive, an uneducated or menial worker?

4 A. No, I'm not going to say that he's a criminal or a primitive, but

5 there were court proceedings there with regard to some illegal dealings,

6 some unlawful construction that he was involved in prior to the war, and I

7 don't know what happened in the end. But I do know that this was a matter

8 treated in court and serious talks were held and SUP, where I worked at

9 the time, was involved in this issue in relation to Mr. Cosovic.

10 Q. How doubt Zdravko Ljubinkovic? Is he a criminal or a primitive

11 or uneducated or menial worker?

12 A. I must say that he does not fall into the category of highly

13 educated intellectuals. Some of his actions and some of his behaviour

14 sometimes point out to rather primitive views, but it is a matter of

15 personal behaviour. An inclination to drink and to do certain other

16 things.

17 Q. Now, does your perspective on the SDS party as being a party of

18 criminals, primitives, the uneducated and menial workers, does that have

19 anything to do with your political perspective as a communist?

20 A. No, I don't view it as a communist. Quite the contrary. I'm

21 referring to people's characters. I'm well-acquainted with the structure

22 of the population that set up the SDS, and I know full well what the

23 categories and what the level of people who joined that party were. I can

24 say it with a high degree of certainty not as a communist or a police

25 officer, but I do know that these people never enjoyed a great deal of

Page 14399

1 respect in the areas where they lived and that -- they never had a great

2 deal of power or respect once they came to power, and we all know by what

3 process they came to power.

4 Q. Through democracy and public elections, Mr. Davidovic.

5 A. I know that full well. I know what democracy is and how public

6 elections are meant to be operated. I must tell you, madam, that --

7 JUDGE ORIE: May I just intervene here. It is clear that the

8 witness keeps not in high esteem the 25 SDS people. To start any line of

9 questioning on how power was gained, the Chamber has heard some evidence

10 about elections. The Chamber has heard evidence about other matters as

11 well. It really does not assist the Chamber here to start a discussion on

12 what were the -- what brought and where and when what party in power.

13 Please proceed.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. I'm happy to move on to another

15 topic.

16 Q. Now, you've also indicated in your statement in relation to

17 Predrag Jesuric that he was a lawyer and a judge prior to the war and had

18 engaged in criminal activities before that. What criminal activities are

19 you talking about, Mr. Davidovic?

20 A. Money laundering. He was one of the leading figures involved in

21 money laundering in Bijeljina. He even neglected his job as a lawyer and

22 he only did that and he had people who worked for him.

23 Q. What's he currently doing, Mr. Davidovic?

24 A. You mean now?

25 Q. Now.

Page 14400

1 A. Who do you mean? Mr. Jesuric or myself?

2 Q. No, Mr. Jesuric. What is his current occupation?

3 A. A couple of months ago he opened a lawyer's office once again.

4 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to your paragraph 13 in your statement,

5 shall we? "After the elections, the SDS came to power and as a result I

6 was dismissed from my job as chief of police."

7 So I take it there that you blame the SDS from losing your job as

8 chief of police.

9 A. I'm not blaming SDS. Had I wanted to be a member, I would have

10 been in. They offered me to stay, to join in, and to even be promoted. I

11 disagreed with the political profile of that party. Any party that is

12 called "Serbian democratic," et cetera, "Serbia," sounded like something

13 which was not progressive. I am not in favour of nationalism, and this is

14 not acceptable to me and I don't need to go into this anymore. And this

15 was the reason why I didn't want to go along with it. And the difference

16 between my own views and the views of the SDS, if I may say so, is that we

17 are at two opposite ends of the spectrum and we have nothing in common.

18 Had I wanted to join in, I would have done it. I was offered promotion.

19 I was offered a place within the party, et cetera, but I turned it down.

20 And I'm fully aware of -- and I was fully aware of what would have

21 happened if they gained power.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, you -- you were aware, of course, that the

23 SDA, as a Bosniak Muslim nationalist party, was actually formed prior to

24 the SDS? You're aware of that, aren't you?

25 A. Certainly.

Page 14401

1 Q. And --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Can Defence counsel kindly get closer to the

3 microphone.

4 A. Connotation, both parties.

5 Q. Yes. Now, just in relation to your paragraph 13, where you

6 indicate that you were dismissed from your job as chief of police, that,

7 of course, was the result of a Bosnia-wide agreement between the parties

8 where there was a division of power in relation to each municipality,

9 whether it was a -- a Serb-dominated municipality or a Bosniak-dominated

10 municipality or a Croat-dominated municipality and a division of power was

11 instituted Bosnia-wide, was it not?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And -- and I think in the circumstances in your local area the --

14 and that is in Bijeljina, the -- the head of police became a Serb and the

15 commander was, in fact, a Muslim, Hasan Osmanovic; correct?

16 A. I don't know the name exactly, but it's true. A Bosniak became

17 commander and a Serb was chief of the police station.

18 Q. Now, moving on to paragraph 69 in your statement. You indicate

19 this: "A number of Serbs in Bijeljina who didn't go along or agree with

20 the policy of SDS were killed."

21 Now, that's quite a claim, Mr. Davidovic. Can you give the Court

22 names of who you're referring to there?

23 A. I cannot tell you off the cuff, but this information exists and

24 the Municipal Assembly discussed those people by name. If I could look at

25 the documentation for the relevant period, I could see how many dead there

Page 14402

1 were in that period as well as their ethnic background.

2 Q. So you can't give the Court any specific information in relation

3 to the names of these people that you say were killed because they didn't

4 go along with the policy of the SDS; correct?

5 A. When we arrived at Bijeljina and we wrote a brief for the

6 Municipal Assembly session which you say was the 20th and was held in

7 Bijeljina, this brief contained the names of persons who were liquidated

8 either by unknown perpetrators or by members of paramilitary groups.

9 Anyway, the perpetrators were never found.

10 Q. Moving on to another topic. You indicate in paragraph 70

11 that "Drago Vukovic and Predrag Jesuric had lists from the SDS of wealthy

12 Muslims in Bijeljina."

13 Now, Mr. Davidovic, can you comment on the fact that it appears

14 that Mr. Vukovic and Mr. Jesuric did not ever work simultaneously in

15 Bijeljina together?

16 A. That is not true. Mr. Jesuric was assistant minister or some

17 sort of chief in charge of foreigners in Bijeljina, and Drago Vukovic was

18 chief of the secret police. Later he was chief of the section for

19 information -- disinformation and propaganda. I think that was the name

20 of his position. They were in Bijeljina and they worked on different

21 positions. Jesuric Predrag was in charge of the local police and Vukovic

22 was chief of the secret police and later chief of propaganda. And they

23 had a certain rating ascribed to every Muslim, and according to that

24 rating they would be taken away. Or rounded up.

25 Q. Now, are you aware of an incident at the bridge in Sremska Raca

Page 14403

1 where a group under your command took gold jewellery from Husein Kurtic

2 [phoen]?

3 A. Are you asking me?

4 Q. Yes, I am. Are you aware?

5 A. I don't know who that is, and I don't know what the role of my

6 unit is supposed to be. I had some information about seized jewellery. I

7 know that there was a dentist - although I'm not quite sure about it - had

8 received a large amount of jewellery, gold jewellery, from a woman and it

9 was taken away by Drago Vukovic. That's all I know. I know that

10 jewellery was seized from him in the amount of two kilos by this group

11 called Yellow Wasps. That amount of jewellery was stored at the SUP.

12 That's all I know about it.

13 Q. Do you know anything about people from your unit beating a

14 Mr. Fadil Sainovic?

15 A. I don't even know that name. Who is it? Why was he beaten?

16 Q. So you know nothing of Mr. Fadil Sainovic; correct?

17 A. No, I don't. I don't know anything. If one of my people beat

18 him, you'd have to give me some details.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, on to another topic. Do you know anything of

20 Mr. Ferid Zecevic?

21 A. Yes. Zecevic, you mean?

22 Q. Yes. Did you lead him away from his house at some point?

23 A. No. No, Ferid Zecevic is or used to be a schoolteacher before

24 the war, and he also had a catering establishment. When the war began, he

25 was arrested and taken into custody, detained. As far as I know, it was

Page 14404












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14405

1 public knowledge that a lot of money had been found on him -- or rather,

2 he gave Arkan a lot of money, 100 or 200.000, after which he was allowed

3 to move freely about town, and whenever asked, he said that he had cover

4 from Arkan. Later he was taken to Batkovic camp. He was taken there and

5 placed there by some military unit. I don't know why. And I think that

6 he was killed there. From what I know, he never returned from Batkovic

7 camp.

8 Q. So it was not you that led him away from his house; correct?

9 A. No. No.

10 Q. How about Husein Apaka?

11 A. I know him too. I know that he, too, was taken to Batkovic camp

12 and I was present at the corps command when a military officer came to

13 complain about Husein because allegedly when they ran into each other,

14 Husein said something insulting and that military officer demanded that he

15 be taken away immediately to Batkovic camp. He never returned either.

16 I have to say that Apaka was my witness at my wedding, and I'm

17 very sorry that I could not go to his home and tell him at the time that

18 he should run away, run for his life, because if I had done so, I would

19 have lost my head. But I know that he was taken away to Batkovic and

20 never returned from there.

21 Q. And you did not lead him away from his house.

22 A. No.

23 Q. How about --

24 A. Certainly not. Well, there's his wife, children.

25 Q. Tell me, how about Ejub Smaic if did you lead him away from his

Page 14406

1 home?

2 A. Ejub Smaic? Never heard -- who is that? Who is that man? Maybe

3 you can help me remember.

4 Q. No, I'm asking if you know of him. If you don't know of him,

5 then we can leave that topic where it is.

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. Okay. Now, just in relation to a particular document that I'm

8 going to show you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist Ms. Loukas. We

10 have copies, Ms. Loukas, or should it be put on the ELMO?

11 MS. LOUKAS: No, I think it should be placed on the ELMO, Your

12 Honour.


14 MR. HANNIS: Is there any English available, Your Honour?

15 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it is English or not,

16 Mr. Hannis, so I --

17 MS. LOUKAS: It's French.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It's French. Well, this Chamber is able to read

19 some French, but let's see if there's any -- perhaps we could see the top

20 of the list first. There's the French text.

21 Ms. Loukas, just for the record, would it not be wise to -- that

22 we read what is on the top of the list or ...

23 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps --

25 MS. LOUKAS: I'm sure that the Bench has better facility in

Page 14407

1 French than I do.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, of course, it should be on the record as

3 well.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And it reads -- although the first word seems to be

6 more English than French, from what I know from the French language. It's

7 [Interpretation] "List of volunteers to go to the west. 12.03.93."

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

9 Yes, Mr. Hannis.

10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I notice the heading also has name,

11 sex, country, which appears to be in English. Mr. Davidovic doesn't speak

12 English and I don't know about his French.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we'll hear from Ms. Loukas on what she wants

14 to know.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, certainly.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, were you aware of the European Community

17 Monitoring Mission to Yugoslavia in around that period of time?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Have you ever seen that document before?

20 A. No, never.

21 MS. LOUKAS: No further questions on that topic, Your Honours. I

22 can indicate, Your Honours, that as I've said, there are further matters

23 that I need to look at, in terms of material that has arrived from the

24 investigators.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What did you have in mind, Ms. Loukas? Just

Page 14408

1 to -- I don't know how much time you'd need, how much -- how much

2 questions you would -- how many questions you would still have in mind.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Well, what I am saying, Your Honour, is that in the

4 light of the -- the further investigations that are continuing and the

5 time required to analyse this material properly and put it before the

6 Court, I cannot go any further with this witness today in

7 cross-examination. I would suggest that he's a witness that should come

8 back again and that, Your Honour, we can commence the evidence perhaps of

9 the next witness so that we don't lose any court time.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the question, Mr. Hannis - and I invite

11 you, Mr. Davidovic, to carefully listen to what has just been said - of

12 course, we could move on with the next witness, but then, of course, the

13 issue is whether we would give an opportunity for the Defence to further

14 cross-examine this witness and whether that should be at a longer term or

15 whether that would take, well, let's say, perhaps one more hour on --

16 tomorrow or Wednesday.

17 MR. HANNIS: I guess, Your Honour, I would -- I would like some

18 information about this. I think this witness needed to return on the

19 Wednesday. That was discussed when -- when we first talked about bringing

20 him here. I don't know what else needs to be done. I don't know how much

21 material Ms. Loukas has to go through.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If you say this witness has to return on Wednesday,

23 that means that he could leave The Hague on Wednesday and then still be

24 back in time?

25 MR. HANNIS: I would ask the Court to inquire of him

Page 14409

1 specifically.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. But from your information at this

3 moment, it is -- he could not leave any later than by Wednesday. Is

4 that ...

5 MR. HANNIS: I think that's correct, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I invited you, Mr. Davidovic, to carefully

7 listen. Is that correct, that you could not leave The Hague any later

8 than by Friday -- by Wednesday?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have prior obligations that are

10 already set, and I was told that I would be here on Monday and maybe

11 Tuesday. I could not delay my departure beyond Wednesday. But are you

12 telling me that I have to come back to continue my testimony or -- or

13 what?

14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just inquiring into what is possible and what's

15 not possible.

16 Mr. Hannis, this Chamber has no updated knowledge about flights,

17 et cetera. Hearing the last portion of the testimony on Wednesday morning

18 and leaving on Wednesday in the afternoon, is that a practical possibility

19 at all?

20 MR. HANNIS: I'm not up to date. The last understanding I had,

21 Your Honour, was that those flights left at 10.30 in the morning. I don't

22 know if there's an afternoon flight to where Mr. Davidovic would be going

23 or not.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, on the basis of the information

25 you have now, would it be possible to continue your cross-examination

Page 14410

1 tomorrow?

2 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, that's what I was just inquiring

3 about with my case manager. The additional material will --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Please speak into the microphone. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you --

6 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, sorry, Your Honour. I keep moving away from the

7 microphone. And I do apologise to the transcribers for that.

8 Yes. My understanding is that the additional material, Your

9 Honour, that we are awaiting will take longer than overnight.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then, of course, the question on -- on which we did

11 not get a clear answer as to where, as I understand, you received a copy

12 of the statement but it's not clear when you started making further

13 inquiries, that question and that answer might become more relevant in --

14 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I'm not -- oh, sorry. I thought Your

15 Honour was finished.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That might become more relevant as it ...

17 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Your Honour. I can indicate that as I

18 understand it, and my instructions are that -- oh, sorry.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber, on the one hand, wants to accommodate

21 the Defence because the Chamber is aware that cross-examining this witness

22 is not the most simple part of Defence activities. At the same time, of

23 course, there is some doubt as to whether the priorities have been set in

24 such a way but -- that the situation could have been avoided. But rather

25 than spend a lot of time on going in any further detail, the Chamber

Page 14411

1 would, if it would be a solution, that the witness could leave on

2 Wednesday in the afternoon. And I can imagine that direct flights might

3 be very strict, but I don't know how many there are. But sometimes by

4 finding other routes, sometimes it's possible to -- to fit a schedule into

5 the remainder of the -- a flight schedule into the remainder of the

6 programme.

7 Then we would invite you, Ms. Loukas, then, to finish the

8 cross-examination on Wednesday. That's what the Chamber very much has in

9 mind. But it would certainly need further -- further inquiries.

10 Mr. Davidovic, you have heard that the Defence still needs a bit

11 more time to prepare for your further cross-examination. At the same

12 time, the Chamber would like to finish your testimony, if possible, by

13 next Wednesday and then to see whether you could return next Wednesday.

14 We can't give you a final answer to it at this very moment because

15 inquiries are still to be made. We'll keep you informed about whether

16 we'd like to see you back tomorrow or on Wednesday through the Victims and

17 Witnesses Section, and that also means that you're excused for this

18 moment, and I'd like to instruct you not to speak with anyone about the

19 testimony you have given or you're still about to give.

20 The Chamber cannot fully exclude for the possibility that you

21 would have to return at a later stage, but the Chamber tries to do

22 whatever it can to avoid travelling back and forth.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, first of all, Mr. Usher, could you escort

25 Mr. Davidovic out of the courtroom.

Page 14412

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE ORIE: My next question would be: Ms. Loukas, since you

3 said that the next witness would be taken by Mr. Stewart, whether we can

4 proceed at this moment with the next witness.

5 Mr. Stewart not being here but ...

6 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I can make a -- a very quick

7 phone call, but I don't think there would be a problem with the witness

8 proceeding, but I need to confirm that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You'd say that you would stay here for a while and

10 then hear the first part of the -- of the examination-in-chief.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. And I just -- but obviously I

12 need to make a phone call to confirm all of that.


14 MS. LOUKAS: I can do that very quickly.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you would please do that. We will then adjourn

16 for three minutes, I would say -- or five minutes. On the phone you can

17 speak as quick as you want, Ms. Loukas.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And -- yes, Mr. Krajisnik. You'd like to address

20 us?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to say something about

22 this witness who just left, and I would appreciate it if we could go into

23 private session for a while. I have a suggestion to make.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please first in one word consult with

25 Ms. Loukas because saying something about a witness is -- would easily

Page 14413












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14414

1 result in commenting on his testimony, which is not appropriate.

2 Ms. Loukas, would you find one second to ...

3 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you to

5 understand that I'm trying to express my own opinion here. This is a very

6 peculiar situation. And if we need a consultation after the private

7 session, then we can have one. I think what I have to say would assist

8 the Trial Chamber.

9 JUDGE ORIE: This witness has been -- has been testifying in open

10 court, Mr. Krajisnik. The Chamber at this moment does not see clearly why

11 we should in relation to this witness turn into private session. But let

12 me just consult with my colleagues.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.

15 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I was not up to date on

16 what the status was with regard to Mr. Krajisnik representing himself and

17 whether or not he was going to be allowed to ask this witness any

18 questions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, we --

20 MR. HANNIS: So we could use this time now, I would suggest.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although, such an application could be made

22 even without going into private session.

23 Mr. Krajisnik, if you want to go into private session where the

24 Chamber sees no reason and where you've given no reason apart from that it

25 would assist the Chamber, the Chamber insists that you consult with

Page 14415

1 Ms. Loukas. And this is not to say that you could not express your own

2 position but not after having consulted Ms. Loukas, who might advise you

3 on procedural matters related to it. So if you insist, fine; but not

4 until after you have consulted with Ms. Loukas. And I'm not saying that

5 Ms. Loukas should then present what your position is. You may do it

6 yourself, but you'll first have to consult with her.

7 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can say what I have to say in

9 public session. There is no problem about that. It's not a problem for

10 me to have this consultation either.

11 JUDGE ORIE: If you --

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can do it in public session too.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so, Mr. Krajisnik.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] About everything this witness has

15 said, there are written statements with regard to all of that taken by

16 your investigators.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you're not allowed to comment or to

18 explain what you will do in response to what this witness testified. That

19 is out of the order. When you want to -- to produce whatever material you

20 have, whether you do it now, whether you do it at a later stage, fine.

21 You're not allowed, not in private session, not in open session, to

22 comment on the testimony of the witness.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I withdraw this

24 explanation.

25 I suggest, however, for this witness to be called again afterwards

Page 14416

1 and for all these people -- all those other people who had made statements

2 to be invited as well. Because it could be almost a mini trial, because I

3 think we can turn round and round in circles until the very end, and I

4 assure you that there are statements denying everything that this witness

5 has said.

6 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Krajisnik, again, you are commenting on and

7 you are telling us what evidence you'd like to be presented. It is for

8 your counsel to call whatever witnesses they want to call, to present

9 whatever evidence they want to present. They can, of course, not call

10 witnesses when the case of the Prosecutor is presented, but of course they

11 could already confront the witness with documents. As you may have

12 noticed, the Chamber was willing to at least grant until Wednesday

13 morning, if that would be practically possible to Ms. Loukas. But you are

14 not in a position now to say what you think would be available to

15 contradict the testimony of this witness. That's not within the Rules.

16 Please proceed.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for warning me.

18 So my proposal would be to set up a mini trial here, for the

19 witness to go back home, and to call the witnesses that he had referred

20 to, and within a day or two we could thus clear up the whole issue. This

21 is a very important testimony, and that's why I've decided to come up with

22 this proposal.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, exactly your suggestion or your

24 proposal for a mini trial shows how important it was to consult with

25 Ms. Loukas, who is aware of rules of procedure and sequence of

Page 14417

1 presentation of evidence, when to respond, when not to respond, et cetera.

2 Therefore, we have heard your suggestion. We will adjourn for five

3 minutes, which allows Ms. Loukas to have a phone call with Mr. --

4 No, no, no, Mr. Krajisnik.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask you ...

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you'd like to ask me something. Please do so.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would in that case just like to

8 ask you in case this witness continues to be examined, for me to be able

9 to put questions to him. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You may have noticed, Mr. Krajisnik, that on the

11 last few witnesses we allowed you to do so, and there's no reason to

12 believe that we would change that experimental approach on the spot.

13 Ms. Loukas, you will have five minutes to give a call to

14 Mr. Stewart.

15 Mr. Hannis, is it you who's going to --

16 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- take the next ...

18 MR. HANNIS: It's Mr. Gaynor, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Gaynor. Protective measures? It will be

20 closed session or ...

21 Could the registrar prepare for the next witness.

22 MR. HANNIS: We'll check and advise.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that everyone is well prepared.

24 And we'll continue in five minutes from now on.

25 --- Break taken at 1.13 p.m.

Page 14418

1 --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour. I just took a little bit longer

3 with that phone call than I had anticipated, because at the same time I

4 was getting a call from Australia from one of my sisters to tell me that

5 my grandmother had died.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the Chamber feels very sorry for you,

7 Ms. Loukas.

8 MS. LOUKAS: But I'm ready to proceed, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We wish you and the rest of your family a lot

10 of strength, because it -- especially if you're at such a distance, it's

11 even more difficult perhaps because you can't be close by. And the

12 Chamber is -- is with full sympathy for you at this moment.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. It's -- it's just for my

14 mother's sake, you know. I know it's a difficult time for her.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We wish you and her all the strength she will

16 need and you will need.

17 Then although it's not a matter that should be dealt with in

18 closed session, Mr. Krajisnik, but we'll deliver that decision in the open

19 session as well, but Chamber does not follow your suggestion to have a

20 mini trial in relation to Mr. -- to Witness Davidovic at this moment.

21 We are in -- let me just see. We are in -- not yet in closed

22 session, although all the curtains are down. Could we turn into closed

23 session.

24 [Closed session]

25 (redacted)

Page 14419











11 Pages 14419-14429 redacted. Closed session.















Page 14430

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any news about travelling schedules for

Page 14431

1 next Wednesday?

2 MR. HANNIS: By "next Wednesday," do you mean the day after

3 tomorrow, Your Honour?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the day after tomorrow.

5 MR. HANNIS: I'm not informed yet. I heard that possibly there

6 was an afternoon flight at 1.00.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That might help out, Ms. Loukas, of course

8 depending on how much time you would still need. But Mr. Krajisnik wants

9 to put some questions to the witness as well. But a flight of 1.00 means

10 not check in not later than 12.00, isn't it?

11 MR. HANNIS: I think that's right.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Which means, no traffic offences, 35, 40 minutes to

13 get to the airport. That would leave us for the first two hours on --

14 perhaps there would be a possibility to perhaps have an early start;

15 although, I usually have a meeting at 8.00 on Wednesday. But let's try

16 it.

17 So it's not yet a definite no. The parties should arrange

18 stand-by, to accept and give whatever further information there is so that

19 we could deal with the scheduling in the appropriate way.

20 Yes, all right.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 MR. HANNIS: And so we can let Witness and Victim know whether or

23 not Mr. Davidovic should be brought back tomorrow any time as well, as a

24 possibility?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a matter of fact, Ms. Loukas, it also

Page 14432

1 depends a bit on your information. If, for example, you would say, "I

2 have some -- I received some material that we could deal with the last

3 hour of tomorrow -- tomorrow's session and then we would still have

4 perhaps the first part of the Wednesday morning's session, that might well

5 fit in travelling arrangements. Unless you say, "No, we -- I always get

6 all the material on Tuesday at midnight." But I take it that it comes in

7 smaller portions.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. I -- what I will do is I

9 will obviously keep the situation under review this evening and -- and

10 tomorrow and inform the Trial Chamber as to whether I could consider I

11 could use some time tomorrow afternoon. Because it seems to me the

12 Wednesday afternoon is cutting it a little bit tight, if one takes into

13 account cross-examination, re-examination, questions from the Judges, and

14 also questions from Mr. Krajisnik.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But perhaps the best idea would be to --

16 perhaps to start -- to start tomorrow in the latter part of the morning

17 session. We would then still have some time on Wednesday morning if need

18 be. But perhaps start first with -- with Witness 636.

19 MR. HANNIS: I would like to propose that, Your Honour. It's my

20 understanding from Mr. Gaynor that he thought his direct would be less

21 than an hour. And I don't know how long cross would be, but it seemed to

22 me that we would have some time to resume with Mr. Davidovic tomorrow.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The second half of the morning. And when you

24 are still waiting for more information, then perhaps it comes on Tuesday

25 in the afternoon, then, Ms. Loukas.

Page 14433

1 That's what we are heading for at this moment. If there's any

2 relevant information, the Chamber would like to hear that without any

3 delay.

4 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00 in the same courtroom.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of

7 June, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.