Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14801

1 Monday, 20 June 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

9 Mr. Registrar, perhaps first there were some dossiers that need

10 still to be given numbers. Could you please name them and name their

11 numbers as well.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. The first one is the

13 Bijeljina municipality dossier which will be given prosecution exhibit

14 P801. The next one would be the Ilijas municipality which will be P802.

15 The Prijedor municipality dossier will be given P803. The [Realtime

16 transcript read in error: "Rogota"] municipality dossier will be given

17 P804. And the Sokolac [Realtime transcript read in error: "Kolak"]

18 municipality document will be given P805.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Just to avoid any misunderstanding, Rogota should be

20 Rogatica and Kolak will be Sokolac.

21 Yes. Mr. Stewart, are you ready to continue the

22 cross-examination of Mr. Prstojevic?

23 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then in terms of time, examination-in-chief took

25 five hours. The Judges have taken quite some time as well. The

Page 14802

1 cross-examination -- you thought, Mr. Stewart, that you would need

2 approximately three hours. One of the concerns of the Chamber is that

3 cross-examination by both counsel and some additional questions by the

4 accused should not lead to any further consumption of time. Therefore,

5 the Chamber would very much like to see that you arrange or you

6 cross-examine the witness in such a way, perhaps after brief consultation

7 with Mr. Krajisnik, that we would be in a position to finish

8 cross-examination at the first break, which would be approximately five

9 quarters of an hour from now.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, might I ask --


12 MR. STEWART: -- because I'm afraid I haven't done the

13 calculation but I know the Trial Chamber knows this kind of thing, but

14 how long have I had so far?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Two hours, Mr. Stewart.

16 Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

17 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, before the witness comes into

18 the courtroom --


20 MR. STEWART: -- first of all, it is a point I have made in

21 relation to a number of witnesses. When one has a witness with such a

22 very large series of interviews, a long series of interviews, even though

23 those interviews are not of course in accordance with Your Honour's

24 ruling themselves part of the witness's evidence in the form of a

25 statement, but that itself indicates that it's very likely that that

Page 14803

1 witness will be a witness with a 60 per cent guideline, which is only a

2 guideline, that should be flexibly applied. And Your Honour knows that

3 overall the Defence are comfortably one the 60 per cent guideline and

4 taking one witness with another. And the whole point of that guideline,

5 we submit, is that there are witnesses where it's suspected and it's

6 appropriate and in fact it's achieved that the Defence would be well

7 within the 60 per cent guideline and there are witnesses where quite

8 legitimately because of the substance of the evidence we would be over

9 the guideline --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'm going to stop you here. It's not

11 on the basic which you seem to suggest, not on the basis of the 60 per

12 cent guideline. We asked you at the beginning how much time you would

13 need. You said it would be approximately three hours. Apart from that

14 the Chamber also takes into consideration the way and the subjects and

15 the time and the -- how the witness is cross-examined. Let's not spend

16 ten or more minutes on discussing this matter. Let's bring the witness

17 in.

18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I must protest --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart --

20 MR. STEWART: When the Court asks me for a time estimate, I will

21 not give one in future if I'm going to be subject to --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart --

23 MR. STEWART: -- what is tantamount to a trick, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I want you -- I have put your

25 microphone off at this moment.

Page 14804

1 Mr. Stewart, it's not a trick. This Chamber is not playing

2 tricks. I just responded to your suggestion that it was the 60 per cent

3 guideline which was guiding this Chamber. I said that more elements were

4 taken into consideration, among which what you said.

5 Let's start with the further cross-examination of the witness.

6 The witness may be brought into the courtroom.

7 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, how am I to resolve the position

8 with Mr. Krajisnik? There is an important point here. Your Honour knows

9 the difficulties to Mr. Krajisnik. Your Honour knows quite frankly that

10 I have not voluntarily willing in any way to give any time to Mr.

11 Krajisnik in relation to cross-examination because Your Honours know that

12 I regard the opportunity that you have given to the lay client to ask

13 questions on cross-examination, Your Honours know that I regard that as

14 an intrusion on my conduct of the case.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that, Mr. Stewart. At the

16 same time, it's not -- where you say that you give any time to Mr.

17 Krajisnik, this Chamber considers all the time spent on cross-examination

18 as time spent on the Defence of Mr. Krajisnik. It's not the one who

19 gives time to the other; it is a way of finding a solution for how to

20 address matters which you find important, matters that Mr. Krajisnik find

21 important, in such a way that the cross-examination will be most

22 effective. I suggest --

23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, you're taking the conduct of the case

24 out of my hands, which is entirely inconsistent with the whole basis of

25 which counsel takes over a case of this nature and inconsistent with the

Page 14805

1 code of conduct and inconsistent with the proper practice, Your Honour.

2 I really must protest at what the Court is doing. My co-counsel would

3 not be permitted by me -- would not expect by me -- to take without

4 proper consultation with me and without my full agreement and approval

5 because I and my co-counsel assisting me have conduct of the case.

6 Your Honours are putting me in the position where I'm overridden

7 by my own client's wishes and overridden by the Tribunal. And having the

8 conduct of the case and my judgements -- and my judgements as to what

9 time is needed and what cross-examination should take place taken away

10 from me, Your Honour, which is absolutely an improper way, in my

11 submission, of dealing with the case.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber heard your observations.

13 We'll now continue with the cross-examination of the witness, and

14 you're invited to consult with Mr. Krajisnik to see whether he has any

15 questions to be put to the witness and how much time he would wish, which

16 is not the same as how much time he could spend on putting those

17 questions to the witness. If you'd like to do that, you have an

18 opportunity now.

19 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, there is a problem with that

20 which is Mr. Krajisnik is generally not willing and with respect to him

21 is generally not able either to say until my cross-examination is

22 completed because it is only when I've completed my cross-examination --

23 does Your Honour not see, with respect, the huge problems created here.

24 I cannot sensibly discuss with my client in advance any timing. I cannot

25 have discussion ss as I could with co-counsel because Mr. Krajisnik

Page 14806

1 considers the right as he considers my cross-examination is inadequate,

2 as lay clients do whether it is or it isn't, whether he considers me not

3 to cover the ground to cover ground himself. So we never know, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, if -- we'll consider the matter. You may

6 consider cross-examination of the witness, Mr. Prstojevic, and this

7 Chamber will try to find solutions for the problems which within the

8 Defence cannot be resolved.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Prstojevic.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, and

12 good morning to everyone in the courtroom.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Prstojevic, I'd like to remind you that you're

14 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

15 your testimony. You'll now be further cross-examined by Mr. Stewart.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]

19 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, good morning. I should say very frankly --

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. I should say from where I'm standing -- from where I was sitting,

22 I can -- of course I cannot read the words, but I can see that you have

23 brought your notebook with you and I can see that you have reasonably

24 extensive notes. May I invite you to confirm, Mr. Prstojevic, that you

25 have not added anything to your notebook since court finished on Friday

Page 14807

1 until you came into court this morning.

2 A. I have. I jotted down a few things I was thinking. First I

3 recalled the name of the technical secretary, the first and last name of

4 the technical secretary in the Municipal Board of the SDS. Her name is

5 Biljana Cabak. The other day I only knew her first name. Now I'm adding

6 the last name. The administrative worker, the other day I could remember

7 that her name was Mila, but her last name is Mila Cakar. Also, I

8 recalled that the secretary of the Crisis Staff until the 4th of April,

9 1992, was Ignac Simic, the secretary of the SDS Municipal Board. After

10 the 4th of April, 1992, this was done by Mr. Momcilo Ceknic who was the

11 secretary of the municipal office.

12 The other notes are of a private nature.

13 Q. Well, Mr. Prstojevic, I'm sorry to probe you on this, but they're

14 of a private nature but relating to this case, are they?

15 A. No, they don't. If I jotted down my dream on Saturday night,

16 that has nothing to do with the trial.

17 Q. Right. Mr. Prstojevic, perhaps we can short-circuit this. Will

18 you turn over to a new blank page. Just put everything you've written in

19 the book -- thank you for your helpful piece of information on the

20 secretary. Could you just make sure that everything you've written is

21 shut up in front of you and start with a blank page. Is that okay?

22 Thank you.

23 Mr. Prstojevic, I'm going to ask you about -- it's page 46 of the

24 transcript of your interview. You were asked about the meeting which you

25 say you attended and you were asked by Mr. Mitford-Burgess: "Was it

Page 14808

1 mandatory for you and the officials from Ilidza to attend?"

2 And you say: "Obligatory, of course."

3 Why did you tell the interviewers that it was obligatory when

4 according to the evidence you've given to this Court, it plainly was not

5 obligatory for you?

6 A. If we were invited to certain meetings in writing or by

7 telephone, we were obliged to attend. If we were not invited to attend a

8 meeting, then we were not permitted to attend unless we received

9 permission to do so at our own request.

10 Q. All right. I want to ask you then about something you said on

11 Thursday, which was about the subordination of the Crisis Staff, your

12 Ilidza Crisis Staff, to the president of the Serbian Assembly. And you

13 were asked: "Is it correct" -- this is page 5, line 8: "Is it correct,

14 Mr. Prstojevic, that the Serbian Crisis Staff of Ilidza was subordinated

15 to the president of the Serbian Assembly?"

16 And your answer was: "The Crisis Staff at Ilidza was basically

17 set up and operated in line with the instructions I saw here."

18 And then you said: "It's quite clear the responsibility of the

19 Crisis Staff had to do with the fact that they were accountable to the

20 state and political bodies that issued those instructions and asked for

21 them to be implemented. Basically coordinating activities of the Crisis

22 Staff would be subject to consultations and agreement with the top

23 political and state leadership."

24 Mr. Prstojevic, does all this and what else you've said mean that

25 it isn't correct to say that the Crisis Staff of Ilidza was subordinated

Page 14809

1 to Mr. Krajisnik, as it was at the time, as president of the Serbian

2 Assembly?

3 A. I stand by what I said before. The state political leadership --

4 actually, the president of the People's Assembly is at the top of the

5 state political leadership. So it is understood that the Crisis Staff

6 and the war commission were subordinated to the national or the People's

7 Assembly.

8 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, when you were interviewed --

9 THE INTERPRETER: The president of the Assembly.


11 Q. When you were interviewed, and this is page 48, Mr. Margetts said

12 to you: "So as president of the Crisis Staff of Ilidza, you were

13 subordinated to both Momcilo Krajisnik and Radovan Karadzic?"

14 And your answer was: "The assumption is that practically I was,

15 because Crisis Staff at one time had certain functions, certain positions

16 that belonged to the orders of the government."

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me, but there's a -- that

18 exchange follows a longer exchange that addresses directly the issues

19 counsel's referring to, beginning with the question: "So did you

20 understand that the Serbian Assembly of Ilidza and the Serbian Crisis

21 Staff of Ilidza was organisationally subordinated to the president of the

22 Assembly?"

23 And the answer: "Absolutely. That's why it reported to it," and

24 so on. So to extract the --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, if Mr. Stewart wants to put an emphasis

Page 14810

1 on small portions of the interview, you of course can ask for the context

2 of those portions of the interview to be tendered into evidence so that

3 the Chamber can have a look at the context in which it was said because I

4 do understand that there might be a problem if you just quote one or two

5 lines and take it out of the context. You are entitled to do so. But at

6 the same time, Mr. Stewart is entitled to -- well, perhaps to cut out

7 certain portions. Whether -- to what extent that assists finally the

8 Chamber, to take matters out of context, is of course another matter, but

9 he's entitled to do it the way he wants and you're entitled to add the

10 context to his questions so that the context is in evidence as well.

11 MR. TIEGER: I appreciate that, Your Honour. My concern on this

12 occasion, as it has been on previous occasions, is not the matter of

13 focussing on a particular portion and asking a witness to clarify any

14 aspect of that, but to the possibility of misleading a witness into

15 thinking that that that was all --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would say that entitled to add the context

17 to the evidence. At the same time you're also entitled, if you really

18 take the position that the way certain parts are cut out, that you ask

19 the specific attention of the Chamber to the context so that the Chamber

20 is well aware on whether or not there would be any misleading of a

21 witness. You understand what I mean - so that attention is focussed on

22 it and if it really comes to -- not on just emphasising on certain parts

23 but real misleading, which requires a lot, then of course you may object

24 to the question.

25 MR. TIEGER: Of course, Your Honour, and by the use of that term

Page 14811

1 I wasn't suggesting there was any purposeful of that. My point was that

2 when you say to someone this is what you said and it only contains a

3 portion, there is a risk of that possibility.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A risk of misleading is not enough. That is

5 the situation but you can add the context. You may draw the attention of

6 the Chamber to it. If there's really misleading of the witness, then you

7 can object.

8 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, it will require a lot before I

9 ever infer that Mr. Tieger is accusing me of deliberate misleading. We

10 don't normally have that. Your Honour, since this point is likely to

11 arise from time to time, may I make my position briefly clear in line

12 with what the Chamber has said.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please do.

14 MR. STEWART: All this on the basis on which the Trial Chamber

15 has ruled, all this material is in evidence in the sense that it has been

16 said by this witness in his interview. Do -- the Chamber has all this

17 material, so it has the context and can always read the questions and

18 answers given by the witness in the light of the context in these

19 interviews. Consequently, what I'm only seeking to do - and I have to do

20 it within the time constraints as well, of course - I'm likely to take

21 the minimum medium context which is consistent with the question not

22 being misleading. But, Your Honour, of course I accept, and it happens

23 from time to time inadvertently when counsel is dealing with a matter --

24 when a question is suggested to be unfairly misleading as put without a

25 little bit of extra context, then of course I'll respond to that straight

Page 14812

1 away. But the point -- and this is taking a bit of time -- but the point

2 of this question I'm about to ask the witness is not, I'm going to

3 submit, not in the least bit misleading from not including extra lines of

4 context. Those are there and can always be argued in due course. I take

5 the chance, Your Honour, if I give the witness a slightly smaller

6 context, I take the chance on his answer, if it's favourable to me,

7 otherwise being slightly reduced or undermined by the ability of the

8 Trial Chamber in the due course to look at the wider context.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The position is clear. You may proceed.

10 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, what I'm urging you to do, please, by way of a

12 question is to indicate not in theory as a matter of political structure

13 but in practical terms, in what way can you say from your own knowledge

14 the Ilidza Crisis Staff was subordinated to the president of the

15 Assembly, in practical terms.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Sorry, is that the totality of your answer, Mr. Prstojevic? It

18 seems my question may not have been clear. Are you going on to

19 supplement your one-word answer?

20 A. Yes, I can add to it. However, it is quite clear, according to

21 the instructions, that the Crisis Staff in emergency circumstances,

22 extraordinary circumstances, assumed the duties and obligation of

23 Ilidza's Municipal Assembly, that it is a body analogous to the local

24 Assembly and the government. As such, not only in theory but also in

25 practice, it was coordinating its everyday work with all the state and

Page 14813

1 political bodies.

2 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, can you tell the Trial Chamber specifically of

3 any instruction or order or direction received by the Ilidza Crisis Staff

4 from Mr. Krajisnik?

5 A. I would not be able to tell you that at this time. Different

6 persons were in charge of coordination: The president of the Crisis

7 Staff, members of the Crisis Staff, and the secretary of the Assembly who

8 was in charge of coordinating activities with the organs from the

9 Assembly, and that was my virtue of his office. However, quite

10 undoubtedly at a later stage we from the commission and the War

11 Presidency had to provide the president of the national Assembly - that

12 is, the national Assembly of Republika Srpska - with written reports.

13 And this was to take place as soon as the administration became

14 operational and started working at a normal pace. Therefore, we were

15 following the activities of the president of the national Assembly and

16 the national Assembly itself, and they were of course following and

17 evaluating our work.

18 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, do you say that at any point the Crisis Staff of

19 Ilidza, the SDS Crisis Staff, had an obligation to report to the

20 president of the Assembly as the primary or main person to whom it was to

21 report?

22 A. It did not have such an obligation at all times.

23 Q. But did it have such an obligation at any time?

24 A. It had the obligation to do so at different meetings, over

25 telephone calls, and through certain ministries. These were the various

Page 14814












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14815

1 channels through which the activities and the security and political

2 situation at Ilidza were followed.

3 Q. But, Mr. Prstojevic, your Crisis Staff never had an obligation to

4 report mainly to Mr. Krajisnik as the holder of the office of president

5 of the Assembly, did it?

6 A. I have given quite an extensive answer to such a question

7 already. I believe I've already answered the question. I keep being

8 asked to say something that is not true.

9 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, do you say that the Ilidza Crisis Staff, first of

10 all, ever received any written instruction from Mr. Krajisnik, coming

11 from him as president of the Assembly?

12 A. Well, I believe that the instruction for the operation for the

13 activities in extraordinary circumstances, 093 that we received at the

14 Assembly of Republika Srpska, is quite telling, where we first elected

15 the Municipal Assembly of Ilidza, its president, the secretary, and then

16 we adopted some decisions. The first thing we did was to send a written

17 document to the president of the national Assembly, and I have seen that

18 this Tribunal and the OTP have the documents. You can see that the

19 document was delivered to the president of the national Assembly and you

20 can see that that particular copy is the one that belonged to the

21 president of the Assembly. One can see that by the various markings.

22 Had it not been our obligation to deliver that document, we would not

23 have done so.

24 Q. Which document are you talking about there?

25 A. I'm talking about the document -- I believe it's the 0093

Page 14816

1 document, instructions for the activities in extraordinary circumstances,

2 pursuant to which the Crisis Staff and the Ilidza Municipal Assembly were

3 elected and established, and it was according to these instructions that

4 the Municipal Assembly, the government, and the Crisis Staff had to

5 function.

6 Q. I'm sorry. Are you saying that the document that was delivered

7 to the president of the national Assembly is the one which we now see

8 numbered 0093? Is that what you're saying?

9 A. I'm trying to say that pursuant to the document 0093 we

10 established a Crisis Staff, we established the Ilidza Municipal Assembly,

11 and it was pursuant to this document that both these bodies operated.

12 What we did on the 2nd and 3rd January, 1992, was to immediately send a

13 written report to, among others, the president of the Assembly. These

14 documents that we sent to the president of the Assembly, his personal

15 copies I myself had occasion to see in the OTP -- with the investigators.

16 It was both the investigators and Mr. Krajisnik who had them, and I

17 believe also this Honourable Trial Chamber has one copy of that document.

18 Q. And when you said that what you did on the 2nd and 3rd of January

19 was to "immediately send a written report to, among others, the president

20 of the Assembly," who were those others?

21 A. We sent the key documents concerning the establishment of the

22 Assembly, the elected functionaries, and two or three decisions that the

23 Assembly adopted on that first day.

24 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, that was precisely not my question. I did not

25 ask you what you sent. You have already talked about that. I asked you

Page 14817

1 to whom. When you said it was sent to Mr. Krajisnik, among others, I'm

2 asking you who those other people were, please.

3 A. The -- these included the Executive Board and the Main Board of

4 the Serbian Democratic Party.

5 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, at page 46 of your interview, you -- there was a

6 whole context talking about this document, an example of which you see

7 numbered 93. And you were asked by Mr. Mitford-Burgess: "Being specific

8 here, do you actually know who the individuals were that were

9 commissioned to be authors of this document?"

10 And your answer was: "Ask Mr. Krajisnik. You asked me this and

11 I told you."

12 Now, I'm just going to say -- before I ask you the question I'm

13 going to say I can't find where in this interview you told the

14 interviewers, but if it's there no doubt it will emerge. But now asking

15 you the very small question Mr. Mitford-Burgess asked you, but please do

16 not answer it by referring back to a previous answer. I'm asking you

17 what you say now. Be specific. Do you actually know who the individuals

18 that were commissioned to be authors of that document?

19 A. I don't know what -- which team of people drafted this document,

20 but I believe that Mr. Krajisnik did know that and that's why I said that

21 he was the person to be asked that question. And this applies to you as

22 well.

23 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, you were asked at page 6 of your evidence given

24 on Thursday, last week, Thursday, the 16th of June -- what had been put

25 to you was page 184 of your -- the transcript of your interview where

Page 14818

1 you'd given an answer in relation to who comprised the War Presidency of

2 Pale and you said: "President Karadzic, Biljana Plavsic, president of

3 the Assembly, Momcilo Krajisnik, president of the government, whether

4 minister of defence or not, I do not know." First of all, the

5 simple question is you do not know reliably who was in the War

6 Presidency, do you, Mr. Prstojevic?

7 A. That's true. I do not know reliably, but I assume that the case

8 was as I indicated.

9 Q. And your answer was: "Precisely because we got no written

10 document telling us who was in the War Presidency, we knew that on the

11 basis of what we'd been told, on the basis of our conversations and

12 assumptions. So I can't tell with 100 per cent certainty that President

13 Karadzic would have been there, although he should have been. So I stick

14 to my previous assessment."

15 Now, Mr. Prstojevic, just for clarification, when you said: "I

16 can't tell with 100 per cent that President Karadzic would have been

17 there," that was a slip, you meant to say that: "I can't tell with 100

18 per cent certainty that President Krajisnik would be there."

19 Do you agree?

20 A. I was referring to all of them. It did not apply only to

21 Karadzic but to all the others that I could not claim with 100 per cent.

22 Q. No, Mr. Prstojevic, I'm going to make clear to you because I am

23 entitled to just explain to you simple facts. You named a particular

24 person in that answer. You said: "I can't tell with 100 per cent

25 certainty that President Karadzic would have been there, although he

Page 14819

1 should have been."

2 First of all, Mr. Prstojevic, then it is clearly 100 per cent

3 certain that President Karadzic would have been included in any such

4 Presidency, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So when you said: "I can't tell with 100 per cent certainty that

7 President Karadzic would have been there, although he should have been,"

8 I'm just suggesting to you that you obviously -- it was a slip, you

9 obviously intended to refer to Mr. Krajisnik there.

10 A. It wasn't a slip of the tongue. I was talking about Mr.

11 Karadzic. However, now when I'm saying about this percentage, what I'm

12 saying about the percentage could apply more to Mr. Krajisnik, whether he

13 was or was not a member of the Presidency.

14 Q. You referred to a meeting on the 17th of April. You made a

15 reference to that at page 46 of Thursday's transcript, the 16th of June.

16 You also made a reference to it on the Wednesday, the previous day, the

17 15th of June, at page 54. You said -- on the Wednesday first you said:

18 "I" -- you said there were -- at the foot of page 53 you said: "There

19 were two more significant meetings attended by the representatives of the

20 armed forces. One was held at Jahorina and the other at Famos. At

21 Jahorina all brigade commanders in the area of Serb Sarajevo were present

22 as well. As to other meetings of different nature or of lesser scope, I

23 think there must have been somewhere from seven to ten."

24 And His Honour Judge Orie said: "This is 1992, is that a correct

25 understanding?"

Page 14820

1 And you said: "Yes, I can only be precise and specific if I can

2 check my papers and I did say before and I'm going to remind you again

3 that at Ilidza I believe on the 17th of April there was a meeting of the

4 part of the government at the Crisis Staff and the meeting was about

5 analysing the security and the political situation and the possibility of

6 having the government of the Serb part of Sarajevo there and the

7 representatives of the government headed by Mr. Karadzic and Mr.

8 Krajisnik were there, and all the Ilidza representatives headed by myself

9 were there as well."

10 So that -- from that answer, can you confirm. The whole point of

11 that meeting, you say, was to make a decision about where the -- where

12 the headquarters or at least an important part of the headquarters of the

13 Serb government would be located from then onwards. Is that right?

14 A. As for the meeting held at the Ilidza Crisis Staff on the 17th of

15 April, I thought that the main emphasis was on the security situation in

16 Ilidza. Within the topic of the security situation, the seat of the

17 government and the state bodies of the Serbian people of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina was also discussed.

19 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, is this right: The reason why such matters had

20 to be discussed was only because in some way Ilidza was, if you like, a

21 candidate to be the location of the Serb government.

22 A. No. To put it simply, up to that point the Serbian government

23 had not had a seat of its own. It was scattered about and people did not

24 know where other people were located. I don't know why Presidents

25 Karadzic and Krajisnik decided to hold this particular meeting at the

Page 14821

1 Ilidza Crisis Staff; perhaps because we were able to guarantee some level

2 of security at that particular point.

3 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, I wonder if you could be given the very document

4 that has been mentioned quite a number of times, 00 -- the one bearing

5 the number 0093, the one that has come to be called variants A and B.

6 Obviously I'm inviting you to be given the Serbian version.

7 MR. STEWART: I don't know what's the most convenient exhibit

8 number, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have many copies --

10 MR. STEWART: Yes, we do, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- in evidence.

12 MR. STEWART: I don't mind which one the witness has, if it can

13 be -- it was item --

14 MR. TIEGER: Well, two things, Your Honour. First, it's P43, and

15 as the Court noted other -- it bears other exhibit numbers, but it was

16 also item 1 of the exhibits that were distributed in the course of this

17 examination.

18 MR. STEWART: Yes, that's absolutely right, Your Honour,

19 whichever is most convenient. It's P43, it's P64, whether that's part of

20 the larger exhibit. Well, Your Honour --

21 JUDGE ORIE: If there would be --

22 MR. STEWART: I've got a completely clean copy, Your Honour, of

23 the Serbian version which came to course of this evidence.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Mr. Tieger, you would not oppose of a

25 copy of Mr. Stewart to be used at this time.

Page 14822

1 MR. TIEGER: No, not at all, Your Honour.


3 MR. STEWART: And then we can swap over in due course, Your

4 Honour. That is the item 1 that was handed out.

5 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, do you -- how long is it since you have looked at

6 this document or a copy of it?

7 A. In November 2003, I had occasion to look at parts of it and a

8 couple of days ago. It would be good if I had the entire document.

9 Q. Well, I think you have got the entire document, Mr. Prstojevic.

10 You've certainly got the entire Serbian version of the document which was

11 produced earlier in the course of your evidence. Mr. Prstojevic, I'm

12 going to proceed on the basis you have got the entire document because

13 I'm really rather confident that you have.

14 If you look at -- first of all, you do seem, Mr. Prstojevic, to

15 have become slightly confused about whether it's variants A and B,

16 variant A or B. The can we take it that in your municipality you -- your

17 evidence is that so far as you applied this document, you intended to

18 apply whatever was appropriate for a municipality in which the Serbs were

19 in the majority?

20 A. I don't know what we were intending, but as far as I can recall

21 we were working in accordance with variant B. But I think it doesn't

22 really matter whether it was one variant or the other. We could apply

23 either one in view of the fact that the executive -- that the president

24 of the executive council, the prime minister, was a member of the SDS.

25 Q. Well, which do you say you did apply, Mr. Prstojevic? Because

Page 14823

1 they -- you can take it from me they are not the same. If you can't say

2 which you applied, then tell the Trial Chamber that.

3 A. No, I stand by what I said in the previous statement.

4 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I'm going to proceed on the

5 basis that what we get out of his previous statements and statements is

6 variant A and not waste time on the alternative.

7 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, can we take variant A, first level. Do you see

8 that? It's under Roman -- immediately under II. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Number 1: "Introduce round-the-clock duty service in all SDS

11 municipal boards."

12 Well, did you do that in the Ilidza Municipal Board?

13 A. Yes, but this is completely identical in variant B also.

14 Q. Don't worry about variant B for the moment, Mr. Prstojevic. Did

15 you introduce round-the-clock duty service? You said yes. Is that what

16 happened? Well, did you?

17 A. Yes, we did.

18 Q. And when --

19 A. Yes, of course.

20 Q. When?

21 A. Right away, immediately the following day after we came because

22 this was finished in the evening. At the Assembly, we implemented it

23 immediately, the following day, once we came to Ilidza.

24 Q. Number 6: "Strengthen the service, providing security for public

25 buildings of vital importance in the municipality."

Page 14824

1 Did you do that straight away?

2 A. We didn't do that at all.

3 Q. Number 7 --

4 A. It was understood that companies had their own internal security

5 and that this was under the jurisdiction of the MUP in a way.

6 Q. Number 7: "Establish control over and check the state of

7 existing commodity reserves and proceed to complete and replenish

8 municipal commodity reserves."

9 Did you check the state of existing -- well, were there commodity

10 reserves, first of all?

11 A. According to my information, there were no municipal reserves.

12 Q. Did --

13 A. Of the joint government in the previous period.

14 Q. Did you take steps to build up municipal commodity reserves with

15 raw materials and manufacturing components?

16 A. No, we didn't because the president of the Executive Board was

17 our man. We didn't do anything for this particular item.

18 Q. Number 10, did you "advise all Serbian staff that they must not

19 go on annual leave, travel abroad, or leave their place of permanent

20 residence in the coming period?"

21 A. It's difficult to answer this. This document was completely read

22 at a meeting of the SDS Municipal Board, and all the deputies during the

23 formation of the Assembly of the Serbian people of Ilidza, which means

24 that the people's representatives, the political and parliamentary

25 representatives were informed. However, we did not insist, especially on

Page 14825

1 this, because in the early part of the year, January, February, March,

2 and April, is not a part of the year when holidays are used. At that

3 time there was no travel abroad by our people. So there was no need to

4 do anything on this matter.

5 Q. You said that -- this is at page 77 of the transcript on Tuesday,

6 the 14th of June. You talked about another meeting held in -- of a

7 military security nature held before the 1st of April, a meeting which

8 you said you had not been present but you've talked to people who had

9 attended. And then at the top of page 77, line 3: "They told me that

10 some people from the leadership of the party, they told me the names but

11 I don't remember them now, they told me that some people were either

12 militant or excessively optimistic saying we would find it very easy to

13 defend ourselves from the Muslims and if any armed conflict would break

14 out, we would have beat them without any problem, which according to our

15 assessment and their assessment was not true. And they were dissatisfied

16 and as said in my statement, going into conflict with such ideas we could

17 get into bloodshed and it was completely uncertain which would win."

18 Now, you said "according to our assessment and their assessment,"

19 and you said it was not true that you would defeat the Muslims without

20 any problem. Who is they -- when you say "in their assessment," who are

21 you talking about?

22 A. I was thinking of the assessment of the state political

23 leadership of the Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24 Q. And was that just presented to you or described to you by the

25 people who did attend the meeting in very general terms?

Page 14826

1 A. Yes. They described it, but not in detail. There was a

2 characteristic manner. A couple of our people were not satisfied with

3 that meeting, so I basically recall extreme or negative instances or

4 incidents. That's what I recall.

5 Q. Now, you said that in Ilidza the units of the Territorial Defence

6 had been mobilised earlier than -- and you're talking about earlier than

7 April 1992, because the formal -- this is page 17 of the transcript of

8 the 15th of June, "because the formal official in charge of Ilidza before

9 the war was in his proper position and everything functioned well."

10 Who were talking about there, the formal official in charge of

11 Ilidza?

12 A. First of all, I didn't say that units were mobilised before April

13 1992.

14 Q. Well, who was the formal official in charge?

15 A. And secondly, it's true. In the pre-war municipal government,

16 the joint one of the Muslims, Croats, and Serbs, the head of the TO staff

17 was Captain Dragan Markovic, who was a candidate of the Serbian

18 Democratic Party.

19 Q. You -- at page 37 and 38 of the transcript on the 15th of June,

20 which was last Wednesday, you talked about Mr. Tomo Kovac. And then at

21 the foot of that page you said: "However, there is one point which is

22 incorrect here that is to say they went to request that -- they were

23 invited to carry out a task which had been determined as early as the

24 14th of April, that is to say to carry out an attack on certain

25 facilities, amongst other things the ethnic settlement of Ilidza. And

Page 14827

1 the Chief of Staff of that army, Bosnia-Herzegovina, made that decision."

2 Who is the Chief of Staff that you're referring to there?

3 A. Well, now I have to look into my notebook so that I just don't

4 speak off the top of my head, if you permit that.

5 Q. Well, can I just ask you please, Mr. Prstojevic, look in your

6 notebook to find notes made when?

7 A. I noted down a few days ago, and I have it jotted down in

8 different places. We had that dispatch in April. I don't know who sent

9 it to us in Ilidza, whether it was our intelligence service, the JNA, or

10 some representative of the international community. On the 14th of

11 April, 1992, the commander of the TO staff of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it

12 doesn't say here --

13 Q. Are you -- if you're saying you don't --

14 A. His name I think was Hasan Efendic. It's known who the commander

15 of -- in any event, he ordered the attacks on the JNA barracks,

16 storehouses, ammunition storage facilities, the MUP. And in -- along the

17 Sarajevo-Ilidza-Hadzici axis. And we happened to be on that axis.

18 Q. You referred to a meeting held at the Famos premises in Pale.

19 You said that was a meeting where Mr. Krajisnik was present as well.

20 When do you say that meeting was?

21 A. The meeting was held in 1992 when the war was already raging.

22 And I would locate that meeting around the activities of the import of

23 peppers into the Muslim part of Sarajevo by Mr. Danilo Veselinovic who

24 was in charge of logistics for the MUP. But as far as the exact date of

25 the meeting and all of that, unless my diary has been destroyed, I would

Page 14828












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13 English transcripts.













Page 14829

1 have that.

2 Q. Do you say it was before or after the meeting on the 17th of

3 April that was under discussion a short while ago here this morning?

4 A. It was much later, between that meeting at the Famos premises and

5 this one on the 17th of April, there was the Jahorina meeting and a whole

6 series of minor meetings.

7 Q. When you say "much later," do you mean many weeks or many months?

8 A. I think that that meeting perhaps took place sometime before the

9 end of September 1992.

10 Q. And what do you say was the purpose of that meeting?

11 A. I already talked about that in detail a few days ago, and I stand

12 by that.

13 Q. Well, Mr. Prstojevic, do you mind just answering my question.

14 What do you say was the purpose of that meeting?

15 A. Well, I can speak as much as you like, if you want, but I would

16 just be tiring this Court. I think the key thing would be the military

17 and the security situation.

18 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, who summoned that meeting?

19 A. Our leadership from Pale.

20 Q. Are you able to say specifically who summoned it?

21 A. No, I cannot say that specifically because I don't know from

22 which cabinet we were invited. It was either from President Karadzic's

23 or President Krajisnik's cabinet, but I'm not sure which one.

24 Q. Was Mr. Karadzic, Dr. Karadzic, at the meeting?

25 A. Yes, he was.

Page 14830

1 Q. Did he hear the meeting?

2 A. I think that he did. It was either he or Mr. Krajisnik.

3 Q. Can you say -- I'm not inviting unless you do know to say

4 exactly, Mr. Prstojevic, but can you say roughly how many people were at

5 that meeting?

6 A. All the presidents of the municipalities of the Serbian city of

7 Sarajevo were present.

8 Q. So that's --

9 A. I said that General Mladic was present and I also think that the

10 brigade commanders were there, too.

11 Q. So that's ten municipalities, was it? Mr. Prstojevic, if you'd

12 say it might be 11 or it might be 9, it's about 10 municipalities, isn't

13 it?

14 A. Less, because Trnovo at the time was part of Ilidza in the

15 organisational sense.

16 Q. Yes. All right. So how many people were at the meeting

17 altogether? 15? 20? 30? 40?

18 A. I cannot really speculate, but they were two, four, six, seven --

19 seven municipalities. Because seven -- seven, eight, nine -- there were

20 nine municipalities. Trnovo at the time did not exist as a municipality.

21 Q. You can't say whether it was 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 people present.

22 Is that right, Mr. Prstojevic?

23 A. Yes, you're right. I really cannot guess.

24 Q. And what did you understand when you attended to be the main

25 purpose of your presence there?

Page 14831

1 A. The main reason was the agenda of the meeting because all the

2 people were there from nine municipalities who were carrying out these

3 functions, the president of the Assembly, the president of the Executive

4 Board, and I don't know whether the party presidents were also there or

5 not. And then you can see immediately if all the three structures were

6 present, the first two were present, times nine how wrong it would be to

7 speculate on how many people there were.

8 Q. All right. What was the -- what was the subject which you

9 understood you were there to deal with, either by contributing to the

10 meeting or by listening to what others contributed? What subject matter

11 -- what were you there for, did you understand?

12 A. I already said that. The political and security situation, which

13 includes completely everything that was important for the conduct of war

14 in these municipalities of the Serbian people. And that is why the

15 bearers of the most responsible functions were invited.

16 Q. How long did the meeting last?

17 A. I can't remember.

18 Q. Well, did it -- was it an all-day meeting?

19 A. I've already said that I cannot remember. Sometimes it would

20 last -- well, as I can see it here, it can go on from 4.00 p.m. until

21 11.00 p.m., but I really cannot speculate on how long the meeting lasted.

22 Q. Can you remember anything about the -- any topic of discussion in

23 relation to your municipality?

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can remember that and I think

Page 14832

1 that you have that in my previous statements in 2003 or on the 6th of May

2 of this year.


4 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber now, please, Mr. Prstojevic, what you can

5 remember, if anything, that was specifically discussed at that meeting

6 relating to your municipality.

7 A. A lot of it had to do with the municipality of which I was

8 president as well as with other municipalities. I remember a negative

9 example of the import of peppers by the aforementioned person to the

10 Muslim part of Sarajevo. So I remember that particular incident in

11 detail because the people in Ilidza criticised that. They believed that

12 this endangered our security. It was not clear to them why somebody was

13 importing peppers. They were suspecting all kinds of things, and I

14 criticised that. And I said in my statement in detail how I criticised

15 it, who didn't let me speak anymore because President Karadzic left at

16 one point and they said, Wait, wait, let Mr. Karadzic hear this. So then

17 I continued once Mr. Karadzic returned to the meeting. There's no need

18 for me to repeat all of this now.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'm --

20 MR. STEWART: Yes, I was going to say, Your Honour, I have

21 tailored my cross-examination in accordance with the Trial Chamber's

22 directions, and therefore I have finished.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

24 Mr. Krajisnik, would have any questions to Mr. Prstojevic?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have prepared a series of

Page 14833

1 questions, but I think that we must resolve the basic question between

2 Mr. Stewart and myself. And on this occasion, I will not ask my question

3 until the question is resolved of how long each one of us can question

4 the witnesses. I would not like to place the Chamber into an

5 uncomfortable situation where I am grabbing to myself the time needed to

6 question the witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, the Chamber will pay attention to

8 that issue, but you'll have now an opportunity to put questions to the

9 witness.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

11 Could the usher please distribute these copies to the Chamber. I

12 have prepared for each of the Judges and for the Prosecutors copies of

13 documents that Mr. Prstojevic will look at and which will be the basis

14 for my questions.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher --

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will try to be as efficient as

17 possible and to take up as little time as possible.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajisnik:

20 Q. [Interpretation] The question of the so-called A and B variant.

21 First I would like to greet Mr. Prstojevic.

22 A. Thank you very much. I would like to extend my greetings to you

23 as well.

24 Q. The A and B variant. I would like to ask you, you have the

25 document number 2 in front of you. It's from the back, actually. I have

Page 14834

1 marked the documents in red ink, so this is document number 2.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I remind the Trial Chamber that

3 this portion is from Mr. Grkovic's diary, who was Mr. Karadzic's

4 secretary.

5 Q. The document is at the back.

6 A. I have found the instructions. And which is the other document?

7 Q. It says: "Friday, 20th December, 1991."

8 A. Then it's the one in front.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Yes, I have found it.

11 Q. You were asked about you being unable to remember when this

12 meeting was held. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. My questions will be brief. Could you please give brief answers

15 likewise so we can finish this as soon as possible. You didn't know

16 which meeting that was. It wasn't quite clear to you?

17 A. I forgot. I believe it was the session of the Assembly of the

18 SDS. In part it was an electoral session.

19 Q. Very well. The second page of that same document at the bottom

20 of the page. It is SA043906.

21 A. Yes, I can see it.

22 Q. Can you see at the bottom it says "subota"?

23 A. If this is an Assembly of the SDS.

24 Q. No, it says the Assembly of the Serbian at 12.00, Holiday Inn.

25 Is that what it says here?

Page 14835

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you please look at document number 3. It -- you go --

3 you're going from the back towards the beginning of the binder.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Which seems to be the stenographic notes of the 21st

5 of December, 1991, meeting of the --

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- of the Assembly of the Serbian people of Bosnia

8 and Herzegovina. Is that correct?

9 THE ACCUSED: [In English] Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you for your assistance, Your

12 Honour, that's right.

13 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Have you read that part?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please read it for the record, Witness.

17 Is this the Assembly of the Serbian people at Holiday Inn?

18 A. Yes, I can see it here.

19 Q. Let's go back to document number 2.

20 Can you see what it says at the top, 1600 hours?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you please read it out to the Trial Chamber.

23 A. "1600 hours, Main Board, deputies' club."

24 Q. Very well. At the bottom of the page it says also "1600 hours."

25 A. The Main Board.

Page 14836

1 Q. Very well. The next page it says "Monday." Can you read what it

2 says at the beginning here.

3 A. "At 1800 hours the Main Board. The club of the SDS deputies

4 Sarajevo."

5 Q. Can you please read there, does it say under Monday?

6 A. Yes, it does.

7 Q. Can we then conclude that this material was distributed during

8 the session of the Assembly of the Serbian people?

9 A. Yes, I believe we can.

10 Q. Have you stated that the material was merely distributed?

11 A. I only stated that it was distributed.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you. Please look at document number 2.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to remind the Honourable

14 Trial Chamber that it was at this time that the variants A and B were

15 distributed.

16 Q. Would you please read the passage which says -- or rather, the

17 ninth paragraph which is in handwriting. If I may assist you, it says:

18 "The Assembly decision."

19 A. "The Assembly decision, 26th of December" --

20 Q. No, no, please. I will read it out and I will ask you to confirm

21 this.

22 "The decision of the Assembly of the Serbian people has arrived

23 from Srebrenica. The deputy of the Serbian municipality."

24 Can you read that? It is written by hand.

25 A. "The decision of the Assembly of the Serbian people has arrived

Page 14837

1 from Srebrenica." I can see it says here -- or about the establishment

2 of the Serb municipality.

3 Q. Exactly.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to remind the Trial

5 Chamber that one witness, Mr. Deronjic, testified to this and that the

6 deputy of the Assembly was Mr. Zekic. Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you're not allowed to comment. You

8 may put questions to the witness. Nothing else.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10 Q. Please look at document number 4. This is the decision on the

11 establishment of the Serb municipality of Ilidza. Have you found it?

12 A. Yes, I have.

13 Q. On page 2 under Roman VII, please read that part, would you.

14 A. "The functionaries, the leaders, and other officials of Serb

15 ethnicity working for the Ilidza municipality, the Executive Board of the

16 municipality of Ilidza, and other municipal bodies and administrative

17 bodies shall continue performing their duties, tasks, and obligations to

18 which they were appointed, elected, or assigned."

19 Q. Is that what the instructions, or rather the variants A and B

20 include?

21 A. I cannot remember, but you have the instructions and you can see

22 it for yourself.

23 Q. Very well. If I tell you that the instructions do not include

24 this, would be opposed to that?

25 A. No, I wouldn't.

Page 14838

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik -- please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Are you aware of the existence of the recommendation of the

5 Serbian Assembly of 11 December 1991, whereby each municipality could

6 establish a Serb municipality if it felt that its population was in

7 danger -- its Serb interests were in danger, rather?

8 A. I cannot recall any such thing.

9 Q. Please then look at document number 5. Can you see the

10 recommendation on the establishment?

11 A. Yes, I can.

12 Q. Could you please read the title of the decision?

13 A. "The recommendation on the establishment of the Municipal

14 Assemblies of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

15 Q. Can you tell us the date of the issuance of this decision?

16 A. It says: "11 December 1991, Sarajevo," in the left-hand corner.

17 Q. Please read out the fourth paragraph of the decision.

18 A. It is not really legible. I will try, but it is quite a poor

19 copy. "The decision on the establishment of the Municipal Assemblies" --

20 Q. No, no, the paragraph above that one.

21 A. "The deputies of the Municipal Assemblies of the Serbian people

22 ought to cease their operations within the Municipal Assemblies and their

23 working bodies unless this is contrary to the requirements of the

24 preservation of equality," and I cannot make out this part. "And the

25 interests of the Serbian people," I believe it says.

Page 14839

1 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, the part that you read, that they should cease

2 operating, rather what it says is that they should continue working?

3 A. Yes, you're right, that they should continue working.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you. This particular article, does it

5 correspond to Article 7 of your decision?

6 A. Yes, they are consistent.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 Can we go back to document number 1 for a moment -- or rather,

9 can you tell us what does the title of the instructions say.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That's known to the Chamber. There's no need to ask

11 this to the witness, Mr. Krajisnik.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. It says: "The Serbian

13 Democratic Party." Very well.

14 Q. Could you please turn to item 6 -- or rather, the document

15 number 6. On page 2, SA009490 --

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter isn't certain about the number.

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

20 MR. TIEGER: I realise there are logistical difficulties with the

21 entire process; nevertheless, the sooner we get these documents the

22 easier it will be for us to identify the English translations if they

23 exist and the easier it will be for us to assess if there is any need for

24 any additional contextual revision of the questions or any re-direct.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. Mr. Tieger, the Chamber has

Page 14840

1 to find, because it was confronted with the logistical problems last

2 week, the Chamber will certainly pay further attention with how to deal

3 with that. Unfortunately, we could not solve that over the weekend.

4 Some of the documents of course are known, some of the documents we all

5 remember that they were in evidence, such as the agenda item of the -- on

6 the 19th and the 20th of December. But we'll certainly pay specific

7 attention to that.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I truly apologise. I spent the

10 entire night looking for the English translations of these documents, but

11 I was not able to find them.

12 Q. We're talking about document number 6, page 2. Can you please

13 read out the title of the document.

14 A. "The decision on the confirmation of the proclaimed Serbian

15 municipality of Bosanska Krupa."

16 Q. Can you please tell us what the date is.

17 A. The 11th December 1991.

18 Q. Page 1, is it -- has it been sent to the president of the

19 national Assembly, Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik?

20 A. It doesn't say who it was delivered to.

21 Q. On page 1?

22 A. Yes, yes, you're right.

23 Q. Can we conclude that this decision was adopted and sent to the

24 president of the Assembly before both the recommendations and the

25 instructions?

Page 14841

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Document number 7.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the only document I

4 managed to find an English translation for. I apologise.

5 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Can you please tell us for the sake of the record what document

7 this is.

8 A. This is a document by the Executive Board dated 13th March, 1992

9 I believe, although I'm not certain about the year, to all the Municipal

10 Boards of the Serbian Democratic Party.

11 Q. Does it say "the SDS Executive Board"?

12 A. Yes, it does say the Executive Board of the Serbian Democratic

13 Party.

14 Q. This -- the Trial Chamber is familiar with this document, so I

15 will not go into it. I will just put a question to you.

16 Can we see that this Executive Board is raising the urgency of

17 some matter here or --what is this document about really?

18 A. As far as I can see the -- it's the establishment of the

19 Municipal Assembly.

20 Q. Could you please quote the title?

21 A. "To all the Municipal Boards of the Serbian Democratic Party in

22 accordance with," and I cannot make out this part --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Prstojevic --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- necessary to assess --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Prstojevic, do you have any recollection in

Page 14842












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13 English transcripts.













Page 14843

1 relation to this document?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall this document, but

3 we must have received it because the mail was coming in regularly.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik.

5 THE ACCUSED: [In English] Sorry, sorry.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, your last question was about dates in

7 a Bosanska Krupa document, whether it was prior to or later than the 19th

8 of December. This Chamber is able, if it looks at a document or a

9 decision taken on the 11th of December, that that's prior to the 19th of

10 December. Therefore, there's no need unless this witness would have any

11 specific knowledge about what happened in Bosanska Krupa. So therefore

12 that makes not such sense. It's not to say that you could not draw --

13 the Defence could not draw the attention to this decision being prior to

14 the 19th of December. But there's no use of asking this witness about

15 it. More or less the same is true for the next one, where the witness

16 has no recollection.

17 So therefore, I'll give you another five minutes to finish.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19 I have five minutes to finish. Is that right?


21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I only need to select one question.

22 I have several.

23 Q. Please look at document which is your order on the -- your order

24 proclaiming the War Presidency. That's to be found behind number 3.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Krajisnik, I take it that you want to draw

Page 14844

1 the attention of the witness to the decision dated the 16th of January,

2 1993.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a decision -- yes, that's

4 right. Thank you very much for your assistance.


6 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, you stated that on the 16th of January, 1992, you

8 established the War Presidency. Is that right?

9 A. That's right, but I have to tell you the following. If one

10 document --

11 Q. I apologise. I only have five minutes left. Is that right? I

12 just wanted to hear if that's right.

13 A. Yes, because I saw the document with my signature and stamp.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, the witness may complete his answer.

15 Mr. Prstojevic, if you'd like to add something, please do so.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to add the following. If

17 a document does not bear a signature or a stamp, it indicates that this

18 was a draft and was not an official document. However, this particular

19 document was not controversial because we could not convene the session

20 of a Municipal Assembly immediately after the Crisis Staff, so we

21 established a War Presidency.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Tieger wanted to say something.


24 MR. TIEGER: I'm trying to clarify whether or not there is any

25 confusion. The witness's previous testimony on more than one occasion

Page 14845

1 was that the Serbian Assembly of Ilidza and the Serbian Crisis Staff were

2 established in January of 1992. I don't know if we're talking about a

3 different body or if the witness is talking about a different year with

4 reference to this particular --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Or there's a mistake in the dating of --

6 MR. TIEGER: That's correct. But if --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could ask the witness.

8 Mr. Prstojevic, I said -- in -- Mr. Krajisnik asked you -- Mr.

9 Prstojevic, you stated on the 16th of January, 1992, you established the

10 War Presidency.

11 Now, if you look at this document you'll see that it's dated the

12 16th of January, 1993.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a slip of the tongue because

14 the 16th of January, 1993, is the correct date. There was no such thing

15 in 1992. There were no War Presidencies.


17 Mr. Krajisnik, this is about War Presidencies, I do understand,

18 and not about Crisis Staffs. What the witness has told us is that this

19 document was not signed. I don't know whether we -- it's not evidence I

20 think until now. So we'd have to look further at this document, unless

21 you would have any specific questions about it at this moment. But the

22 attention is drawn to the fact that it's 1993 rather than 1992.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask the witness the

24 following.

25 Q. Did you issue the order on the establishment based on the

Page 14846

1 decision of the Serbian Assembly of 11 -- of the -- or rather, of the

2 national Assembly of the 11 December 1991?

3 A. This decision was taken, as indicated in the heading. However,

4 as the War Presidency ceased to function, we were unable to immediately

5 convene the Municipal Assembly, and that was a problem.

6 Q. Could you please look at the document number 0149-0941. That's

7 the one immediately following your decision. Could you please read the

8 title of the decision.

9 A. "The decision on the invalidity of the" --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to read out

11 slowly.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Prstojevic, could you please read slowly the

13 title of this document.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Decision invalidating the decision

15 on the establishment of the war commissions in the municipalities during

16 a state of war or a state of imminent threat of war."

17 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Can you tell us what was the basis of the issuance of this

19 decision?

20 A. Pursuant to Article 80, item 1 -- or rather, paragraph 1, item 7

21 of the constitution of Republika Srpska, the national Assembly session

22 held on the 17th of December, 1992. That's when it was adopted.

23 Q. Is this the decision pursuant to which you issued your order on

24 the establishment of the War Presidency?

25 A. Yes, apparently it is.

Page 14847

1 Q. Very well.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I only have one more question left.

3 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, are you aware of any document on the basis of

5 which the War Presidency was established in the municipalities or a war

6 commission was established in the municipalities whereby the Crisis

7 Staffs were abolished?

8 A. There are several issues related to this. The Crisis Staffs

9 ceased to exist with the establishment of the war commissions. If you'll

10 remember, they -- at some point during the war, I can't remember when

11 exactly, War Presidencies were established by the state political

12 leadership. Of course you know that after the Dayton Accords the

13 Presidency or the commission of the Serbian town of Sarajevo was

14 established.

15 Q. I'm just asking about the documents. Can you remember the

16 document on the basis of which war -- municipal War Presidencies were

17 established?

18 A. You mean the one in this document dated 16th January?

19 Q. No. Mr. Prstojevic, the document on the basis of which municipal

20 War Presidencies in general were established. Have you ever seen that

21 document?

22 A. No, I haven't, but I believe war commissions are a totally

23 different issue.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Prstojevic, you've answered the question.

25 You've never seen such a document.

Page 14848

1 We are close to the end of the tape. Anyhow, Mr. Tieger, would

2 there be any need to re-examine the witness?

3 MR. TIEGER: Briefly, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: But we are to adjourn because we are running out of

5 tape. Would it be possible to prepare for the protective measures

6 because I do understand that it takes 20 minutes. I'm afraid we would

7 need then another break of 20 minutes.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: All preparations can be made. The one problem is

10 that there kind of a protection for this witness. Do the parties agree

11 that we could for the few questions where all of it was in all respects

12 public - that means that all the public could also see the back of the

13 head of this witness - that we would continue with this shield already in

14 place?

15 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour, I'm simply not understanding

16 what's being said.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The issue is for the next witness we need the

18 screen.

19 MR. STEWART: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And we would need another break to put that there.

21 Would there be any objection if the last few questions to this witness

22 would be put to him where the public could not see the back of his head.

23 MR. STEWART: If that's the only change, Your Honour, then I --

24 it doesn't seem sensible to have any objection if Mr. Prstojevic doesn't

25 mind.

Page 14849

1 JUDGE ORIE: A simple no would have done.

2 Mr. Tieger --

3 MR. TIEGER: No problem.

4 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. I was being cooperative

5 and helpful, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We're running out of tape, Mr. Stewart.

7 We'll adjourn until 25 minutes past 11.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps the documents that

12 were presented to the witness by Mr. Krajisnik could be briefly placed

13 before him again.


15 Madam Usher, could you please assist Mr. Tieger.

16 Did you have one of them specifically in mind, Mr. Tieger?

17 Re-examined by Mr. Tieger:

18 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, I want to direct your attention and the Court's

19 attention to the document at the back of the materials. The instructions

20 of December 19th were identified as number 1. And as number 2 there are

21 diary -- handwritten diary entries that you also had a brief opportunity

22 to look at.

23 The accused began his questions by asking you to confirm that you

24 were unsure about the precise date of the meeting at which the

25 instructions were distributed or of the precise nature of that meeting,

Page 14850

1 and I believe you did. Looking at the -- and then subsequent to that he

2 asked you to draw a conclusion from the -- from one of the diary entries

3 that the document was distributed at the session of the Serbian Assembly.

4 Looking now at item number 2, the handwritten diary entries, do you see

5 that it reflects --

6 A. I'm sorry. My headphones don't seem to be working. I can't hear

7 anything.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher.

9 Can you now hear, Mr. Prstojevic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.


12 Q. I'll begin again then, sir. I was asking you to direct your

13 attention to the documents at the back of the materials, that is the

14 documents that were marked as 1 and 2, 1 being the instructions of

15 December 19th and 2 being the handwritten diary entries that you had a

16 brief opportunity to look at.

17 Now, the accused began his questions to you about those documents

18 by asking you to confirm that you were unsure about the precise date of

19 the meeting at which the instructions were distributed or of the precise

20 nature of that meeting. He then asked you to look at a diary entry and

21 asked you to draw a conclusion that the instructions were distributed at

22 the session of the Serbian Assembly.

23 I'd like you now to look at number 2, the handwritten diary

24 entries. And is it correct that on the first page of number 2 we see a

25 meeting of the Main Board and the deputies' club on December 20th, 1991?

Page 14851

1 And then on the second page there is a reference to the Serbian Assembly

2 in the Holiday Inn on Saturday, which would be December 21st. Do you see

3 both of those entries? The second entry would be the -- or the second

4 entry to which I referred should be reflected in the second-to-last entry

5 on the page.

6 A. I see it. I see it, but in this document it's the way we said

7 when Mr. Krajisnik was asking questions, because it's obvious that other

8 meetings took place before the Assembly of the Serbian People.

9 Q. And do you know whether or not the December 19th instructions

10 were distributed to some people at those earlier meetings? And if you

11 don't know, just tell us that.

12 A. I don't know, but I think that they were distributed only at that

13 meeting, at the Assembly session, because I never heard about those

14 instructions before.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik also directed your attention to a document

16 that was marked number 4. Now, if I could ask you to look at that

17 quickly. Now, this is a document establishing the Serbian Assembly of

18 Ilidza on the 3rd of January, 1992. Is that right?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. And as the heading indicates, that decision was taken pursuant to

21 the instructions of December 19th, 1991.

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And a copy of that decision was sent to, among others, President

24 Krajisnik, is that right, as you see on the second page?

25 A. Yes. And that is exactly the copy that we see here.

Page 14852

1 Q. Now, you were asked on Thursday at page 71 whether or not the

2 appointment -- your appointment to the position of secretary of

3 inspections was a local decision. Is it correct, Mr. Prstojevic, that

4 you believed you were to receive the position of secretary for the

5 economy but that an intervention took place from either Mr. Krajisnik or

6 Mr. Karadzic and another person was appointed to secretary of the economy

7 and you received the position of secretary of the inspections?

8 A. That is correct, but I think this time we're talking about an

9 intervention by Mr. Karadzic because a man came, I can't remember his

10 last name at the moment. It's a certain neki Bozo [as interpreted]. He

11 became the secretary for the economy and then I was given or I took up

12 this other post.

13 Q. I understood from your earlier interview that you were not sure

14 whether it was Mr. Krajisnik or Mr. Karadzic. What makes you think at

15 this point that this intervention was by Mr. Karadzic rather than by Mr.

16 Krajisnik?

17 A. I don't know exactly how the intervention would have been made.

18 I know that the brother of this man, Bozo, whose last name I cannot

19 remember -- because later in the war he was the president of the Chamber

20 of Commerce of Republika Srpska. The brother was very close, allegedly,

21 to President Karadzic. So I really don't know how it went. But that's

22 why I think that the intervention came from Karadzic.

23 Q. And this morning you were -- there was a brief reference to Mr.

24 Ceklic who became secretary of the Crisis Staff in April, I believe you

25 indicated, after previously being secretary of the Assembly I think you

Page 14853

1 said.

2 A. Yes, Momo Ceklic is the secretary of the Municipal Assembly of

3 Ilidza since the formation of the multi-party Assembly following the

4 elections in November 1990. As of April, 4th of April, 1992, the Crisis

5 Staff would be carrying out the functions which were supposed to be

6 implemented by the Assembly but it could not meet. So then the secretary

7 would be the -- secretary would also be a member of the Crisis Staff and

8 would be participating in its work.

9 Q. Was Mr. Ceklic someone who was close to Mr. Krajisnik?

10 A. Mr. Ceklic knew Mr. Krajisnik much better. I think that they

11 also went to school together at some point.

12 Q. And did Mr. -- was Mr. Ceklic someone through whom information

13 could be conveyed about what Ilidza was doing and what Ilidza should do

14 from republican leaders, generally, and more specifically from Mr.

15 Krajisnik?

16 A. The secretary of the Municipal Assembly is a very important

17 person, and he's responsible for the administrative correspondence. So

18 all the consultations, interventions could be done that way and it was

19 normal for him to be working together with the secretary of the Assembly

20 of Bosnia and Herzegovina and other officials, according to the

21 hierarchy.

22 Q. Well, I wasn't asking about Mr. Ceklic's work as the secretary of

23 the Municipal Assembly with respect to his activities in connection with

24 the operation of the joint government. I simply wanted to know whether

25 Mr. Ceklic's personal relationship with Mr. Krajisnik facilitated the

Page 14854

1 flow of information from the republic leadership to Ilidza and back. And

2 by that, I mean the republic leadership of Republika Srpska.

3 A. I think that he did facilitate that.

4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I have nothing further, thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

6 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry. I don't -- no, it's all right. I'll

7 leave that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any need for further questions triggered by

9 the questions put to the witness in re-direct? If there's not, the

10 Chamber has no questions for the witness.

11 Mr. Prstojevic, this means that this concludes your evidence.

12 The Chamber would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague to

13 testify, to answer all the questions put to you by the parties and by the

14 Bench.

15 Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness out of the

16 courtroom.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE ORIE: We will not deal with all of the exhibits because we

19 will first have to identify to what extent the exhibits presented by Mr.

20 Krajisnik are already in evidence, some of them certainly are, and to see

21 whether translations are there. So we'll work on that and not at this

22 moment give a decision.

23 However, there's another matter. That's the context of the

24 interview. I noted that pages 11, 12, and 13 might be needed to create

25 the appropriate context, and that is then from the large interview,

Page 14855

1 that's the 207-page interview. I also noted pages 40 and 41. And the

2 last issue, Mr. Tieger, where you were asking attention for the context

3 and you were asking that the witness would not be misled was, from what I

4 understand, page 48 of the interview. So just to create a sufficient

5 context, I would suggest that pages 47, 48, and 49 would be in evidence.

6 I don't know who's going to tender them.

7 MR. TIEGER: I don't think it matters, Your Honour.


9 MR. TIEGER: I just ask for the opportunity to briefly -- since

10 we're -- since some of the exhibit issues are pending anyway, I'd just

11 like for the opportunity to look that over quickly and some of the other

12 contextual issues that have arisen.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And then we'll finally deal with the exhibit

14 numbering. We'll do that at another moment.

15 Is there any other procedural issue related to witness this

16 witness?

17 MR. TIEGER: One, Your Honour. I know the Court had discussed

18 with the witness the possibility of seeking his diary. I just wanted to

19 bring that back to the Court's attention since it seems to have been left

20 pending and I don't know whether the Court is considering it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: We said we are considering it. It has not given --

22 at least not -- it has not been given any follow-up with the parties, so

23 sometimes the Chamber is active but sometimes also waits. But if the

24 parties would consider it would be useful to have these -- this note --

25 this personal note, this diary, in evidence or at least to have a look at

Page 14856












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14857

1 it, so to see whether it has any relevance, of course the problem is that

2 we'll not be in a position to ask any additional questions to the witness

3 because it wasn't there, it wasn't translated. So that -- the one step

4 might trigger another one. But I'd just like to know from the parties

5 whether they would like the Chamber to ask the witness to provide it.

6 Both of you uni sono.

7 MR. TIEGER: Well -- yes, I think that would be useful, Your

8 Honour, or potentially useful.

9 MR. STEWART: So does the Defence, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then -- we'll then consider that and see

11 whether we can follow your suggestion and whether we'll invite the

12 witness to provide them.

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour.


15 MR. STEWART: Might I just ask in relation to these vexed

16 interview transcripts. Is the -- I might have to go back and look at the

17 transcripts over the last few days as well. My understanding was that

18 they -- all those transcripts were in evidence in the sense that they --

19 that they were evidence, that that was what the witness has said when he

20 was interviewed.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the parties were invited to point the

22 specific portions, so as to create the background for some of the

23 questions. But the parties are free, if you say they need other portions

24 -- if both parties say, We would like to have them in evidence for this

25 purpose, the whole of this, then of course the Chamber would consider it.

Page 14858

1 We have a lot of context.

2 MR. STEWART: May I reserve my position and go and review the

3 transcript and come back to it if and as necessary, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: If until now the pages I mentioned when the context

5 was specifically raised during the examination of the witness.

6 MR. TIEGER: And I'm not -- I'm not trying to divine the

7 underlying purpose of Mr. Stewart's comment, but I think the Prosecution

8 has made clear its position that once such information of any sort from

9 any source is in evidence, then the Court can use that information as

10 part of the totality of evidence which it relies on to form conclusions

11 about the case.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That's especially the reason why the Chamber would

13 perhaps prefer to have those parts of the interviews available where

14 there's any contextual issue but not be -- well, to say it frankly, not

15 be bothered by information that, at least as far as the substance is

16 concerned, is not in evidence.

17 The parties have an opportunity to further express their views on

18 this. It's clear, Mr. Tieger, you say it's fine if it's all in evidence,

19 but then it's in evidence also to the substance.

20 Mr. Stewart, you would like to consider it. We'll hear from

21 you --

22 MR. STEWART: I'd just like to do that, Your Honour. Yes,

23 exactly.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I couldn't imagine that the Defence would not

25 support just admitting it all in evidence on substance as well.

Page 14859

1 MR. STEWART: It seemed to contradict some things that have

2 already been said, Your Honour. It's better if I go away, read the

3 transcript, think about it, which is always a good idea, before I say

4 anything more.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Fine.

6 Then are we ready to --

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'll be yielding the table to Mr.

8 Harmon at this moment.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We need to check the microphones, so we'll have a

10 break of five minutes. If everyone stands by, we'll return once the

11 exercise has been done.

12 MR. STEWART: And I'm yielding the table to myself, Your Honour.


14 --- Break taken at 11.54 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.07 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I understand that you'll examine

17 Witness KRAJ 068. Protective measures in place, pseudonym, face, and

18 voice distortion.

19 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: May the witness be brought into the courtroom.

21 I take it that you'll start with the pseudonym sheet as first exhibit.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour, and just a consideration, Your

23 Honour. If we are in closed session, is there actually a requirement for

24 me to read the 89(F) summary?

25 JUDGE ORIE: No, we are not in closed session. We are in -- the

Page 14860

1 curtains will be pulled up once the witness is there. No one will see

2 his voice, no one will hear his voice, and no one will know his name, but

3 it's still public -- public session, apart from all these limits.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ORIE: The first document, I take it, will be the pseudonym

6 sheet.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, that's correct.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Registrar, that would be number -- give it

9 already a number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That, Your Honours, the pseudonym sheet would be

11 P806.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

13 Witness 068, because that's how we will call you, before you give

14 evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you

15 to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole

16 truth, and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to make that solemn

17 declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

21 Witness 068, protective measures are in place -- please be

22 seated. The protective measures that are in place is that no one will

23 see your face, it will be distorted on the screens; no one will hear your

24 own voice; and we'll not call you by name. But the evidence you give

25 will otherwise be available for the outside world.

Page 14861

1 Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Ms. Edgerton:

5 Q. Good morning, Witness 68. Madam Usher has put before you a sheet

6 of paper and I'd like you to have a look at that sheet of paper and tell

7 us if the name and date of birth that appear thereon are yours.

8 A. Yes, everything is fine.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. P806 will be admitted under seal.

11 May I remind counsel that they should switch off their

12 microphones as soon as the witness answers the question and I'll try to

13 not forget it myself as well.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Now, Your Honours with respect to Witness 68,

15 we'll be proceeding under Rule 89(F) and in that regard we've prepared

16 for you a package of, in fact, four separate documents, each one of

17 course would have to receive its own exhibit number. The witness has

18 previously given three statements, one to Bosnian authorities in 1994;

19 one to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1995; and a second one in 1996.

20 There's a further document included in that package, and that's a single

21 sheet setting out corrections which the witness has made to the

22 chronology of events as detailed in those previous statements and which

23 he signed and dated yesterday.


25 Mr. Usher, the first ICTY witness statement of 1995 would be P --

Page 14862

1 THE REGISTRAR: That, Your Honours, will be P807.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then the second ICTY signed statement, 20th of May,

3 1996, I take it would be P808.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Bosnian statement numbered and redacted the

6 10th of October, 1994, would be --


8 JUDGE ORIE: P809, and then the corrections signed yesterday

9 would be...

10 THE REGISTRAR: P810, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Now, if we could please have copies of those four

14 documents put before Witness 68.

15 Q. Now, Witness, with respect to the statements which are being put

16 before you, I'd like to ask you: Have you had an opportunity to review

17 those statements during the course of your preparation for testimony here

18 today?

19 A. Yes, I have.

20 Q. Could you please have a look at those statements and tell me if

21 you recognise the signature that appears on them.

22 A. Yes, I do recognise my signature.

23 Q. Now, subject to the corrections which you'll also be bringing to

24 the attention of the Trial Chamber, do you find these three statements to

25 be correct and do you adopt their contents as correct?

Page 14863

1 A. Yes, they are correct. They are quite correct and I accept them

2 as such.

3 Q. Now, with respect to the corrections which were drafted yesterday

4 and you signed and dated, was that document read back to you in your own

5 language?

6 A. Yes, it was read out to me in my language and I agree with it.

7 Q. And you've also had an opportunity, I understand, to read a

8 translation of that document in your own language this morning. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. Is that your signature on the bottom?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Now --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I see on your list, and that's P807,

15 is dated the 21st of October, 1995, I take it should be the 21st and

16 22nd, because otherwise the next date would be excluded.

17 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's on the record then. Please proceed.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Now, Your Honour, there's some paragraphs of

20 Witness 68's 1995 statement don't fall strictly within the parameters of

21 89(F), those being paragraphs 2, 8, and 9. I'll be leading that evidence

22 live, and that's how I would propose to begin at this point.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Ms. Edgerton.


25 Q. Witness 68, could you tell us whether in the year leading up to

Page 14864

1 the war you had occasion to see any high-level SDS leaders in Foca?

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, are we getting the -- normally what we

3 do --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Is the summary.

5 MR. STEWART: Get the 89(F) summary before so the public can

6 understand what the evidence is about.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I see your hand raising to your head.

8 That's -- you may have forgotten it.

9 MS. EDGERTON: It's been a while since I've appeared before Your

10 Honours.


12 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Mr. Stewart. I'll read the witness's

13 89(F) summary.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is aware of this procedure.

15 Witness, usually those parts of your statement that are on paper

16 and will not be dealt with in open court will be read in the summaries,

17 so the public knows what your testimony is about and what you have stated

18 before.

19 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honours.

21 "The witness is Muslim from Foca municipality. He's a teacher by

22 training.

23 "The military on attack Foca started on April 8th, 1992. The

24 next day infantry attacked the town, people in JNA uniforms, locals,

25 Montenegrins who wore Chetnik uniforms. The part of Foca where the

Page 14865

1 witness lived was attacked and shelled on April 9th, 1992. He hid in the

2 cellar of his house with his family and others. The attack lasted on and

3 off for three days.

4 "On the second day of the attack" -- pardon me.

5 On April 11 or 12, 1992, the witness was visited by a Serb

6 neighbour who told him that Foca had fallen and he could no longer

7 guarantee the safety of the witness and the witness's family. This

8 neighbour said he had contacts with local commanders and could provide

9 them with an escape route to Montenegro. On that day, the witness and

10 his family, together with a neighbour and his family, left Foca. They

11 were accompanied by their Serb neighbour through a series of checkpoints,

12 all the way to Montenegro. They eventually made their way to Bar, where

13 they registered with the Red Cross and the police. They moved from place

14 to place to avoid harassment and provocation until 21 May 1992, when the

15 witness was arrested by Montenegrin policemen. There were over 20 other

16 Muslims arrested that day altogether.

17 On the first day of his detention in Bar, the witness saw two men

18 from Foca in the police building where he was held. One of these two was

19 a policeman, the other a restaurant owner. The witness met up with this

20 restaurant owner in 1994, and this man at that time told the witness he

21 was sorry he had had him arrested in 1992, but that he had been compelled

22 to. He didn't tell the witness who his superior was.

23 After three days in Bar, the witness and six other Muslim males

24 were transferred to a prison in Herceg-Novi. On 25th May, 1992,

25 additional Muslims from locations in Bosnia were brought to the police

Page 14866

1 station in Herceg-Novi. On 25th May, they were all taken by bus to

2 KP Dom Foca.

3 On their arrival, they were beaten and searched by Serbs, who the

4 witness names. The day after the witness's arrest, he secretly watched

5 out of the windows and counted prisoners on the way to the dining room at

6 KP Dom. There were 567. The warden of KP Dom Foca was Milorad

7 Krnojelac. The witness knew Krnojelac from before the war. During his

8 detention, the witness saw Krnojelac ordering and supervising guards.

9 The witness names the guard commanders and other prison officials, such

10 as the deputy warden, the head of security, inspectors, and guards.

11 During his confinement, the witness was beaten and locked in

12 solitary confinement on four separate occasions, all in 1992. The

13 witness talks about the conditions in solitary confinement as well as in

14 the prison generally, including how little food the prisoners received

15 and how there was no heating. Only those who were very seriously ill

16 received some medical care.

17 While the witness was not interrogated during his detention, 70

18 per cent of the prisoners in his room were. Until the end of July [sic]

19 1992, it was a pattern after breakfast until 3.00 or 4.00 in the

20 afternoon. Men would return from the interrogations badly beaten.

21 The witness was never tried during his incarceration, nor was he

22 ever sentenced.

23 In late June or early July 1992, the witness saw a succession of

24 36 men killed in four groups. He knew them all. They were non-Serbs

25 from the Foca area. They were taken to the administration building at KP

Page 14867

1 Dom Foca and one by one chained and then beaten to death. After the

2 beating, the prisoners were unchained and their bodies thrown on a

3 blanket, wrapped up, and dragged out. The witness heard nine shots

4 coming from outside the prison after each separate incident and a sound

5 as if trucks were being unloaded. This same scenario repeated itself

6 three more times in exactly the same way with intervals of a couple of

7 days between the second and third groups. The witness recognised the

8 prison guards who took part in the killings, all Serbs.

9 Some time after the incidents, the witness was called out by a

10 guard and he was ordered to clean the room where people had been beaten

11 to death. The floor of the room had blood on it.

12 The practice of taking people away at night lasted until the end

13 of July 1992. From then on, people were taken in small groups to be

14 "exchanged" but were never seen again. The witness notice that 168

15 detainees disappeared this way.

16 The witness was exchanged from KP Dom on October 6th, 1994, at

17 the Bratstvo-Jedinstvo bridge in Sarajevo.

18 And that concludes the summary.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton. You may continue to

20 examine the witness.


22 Q. Now, Witness 68, to repeat the question I had asked initially a

23 little to hastily, could you tell us whether in the year before the

24 outbreak of war you ever saw any high-level SDS leaders in Foca.

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 14868

1 Q. Do you remember who that was?

2 A. I saw Velibor Ostojic and Vojislav Maksimovic and they were SDS

3 functionaries from the republican level. As for the local SDS members, I

4 would see them all the time.

5 Q. Just to focus for now on the two people who you've named who were

6 active at the republican level you say, Maksimovic and Ostojic. Could

7 you tell us how you were able to recognise them.

8 A. I knew Maksimovic in person because he had been a friend of my

9 father's for a long time. As for Ostojic, I knew him from the TV and I

10 had occasion to meet him at a business meeting at a hotel. I saw him for

11 the second time in the same hotel that he stayed in Bosnia.

12 Q. What hotel was that?

13 A. It was the Zelengora Hotel.

14 Q. And where is that hotel located?

15 A. In the Mosa Pijada Street next to the bridge over the Cehotina

16 River.

17 Q. Is that in Foca?

18 A. Foca, yes, yes.

19 Q. Now, drawing you to the year before the war, when you saw these

20 two republican-level officials who you've referred to, where was this?

21 A. I saw them in the immediate vicinity of the premises where I

22 worked. They arrived in a car and went to Miso Petkovic's flat.

23 Q. Is Miso Petkovic a Muslim or -- is Miso Petkovic a Muslim or a

24 Serb?

25 A. Miso Petkovic is a Serb.

Page 14869

1 Q. So you saw both these individuals enter Miso Petkovic's flat.

2 Could you tell us approximately when that was?

3 A. It was sometime in 1991, either November or December.

4 Q. Did you see them with any other local personalities on this

5 occasion?

6 A. Yes. With them was Petko Ivanovic.

7 Q. Now, with respect to both Petkovic and Ivanovic, do you have any

8 knowledge of whether or not they were politically active at the local

9 level?

10 A. I assume that they were because at all the SDS meetings and

11 organisations they appeared there as good organisers.

12 Q. And your statement that at the SDS meetings these men appeared

13 there, is that based on your having seen them at these meetings or having

14 heard some information to that effect?

15 A. I heard information about that and this meeting at the apartment

16 of Miso Petkovic affirmed to me that they were involved in the work of

17 the SDS.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, apart from having seen them enter this private

19 home, did you see these two republican-level officials in Foca at any

20 other locations?

21 A. Yes, I saw them in the fish restaurant.

22 Q. And approximately -- did you see them on only one occasion or

23 more than one occasion?

24 A. On more than one occasion.

25 Q. Over what period of time was this, do you recall?

Page 14870












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14871

1 A. It was the prewar period. This could have been in January or

2 February. I saw them on several occasions in that period, in 1992.

3 Q. The times you saw them at this restaurant, do you recall whether

4 or not they were in the company of any local personalities?

5 A. Yes, Miro Stanic was with them, Petko Cancar, Petko Ivanovic,

6 Miso Petkovic, and others that I knew a little less.

7 Q. Who was Miro Stanic?

8 A. Miro Stanic was the president of the SDS in Foca.

9 Q. And who was Petko Cancar?

10 A. Petko Cancar succeeded him and he was the president of the

11 Municipal Assembly of Foca.

12 Q. Now, if I can take you to the time of -- if I can jump a little

13 bit forward in time and take you to the time of the attack on Foca and

14 the second day of the attack. Could you tell us where you were that day?

15 A. On the second day of the attack, there was a truce. A neighbour

16 came to see me from the second floor and he invited me for coffee, me and

17 my family.

18 Q. By "truce" what do you mean?

19 A. The shooting stopped.

20 Q. Where were you at the time this neighbour came to see you?

21 A. I was on the first floor in my apartment.

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14872

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted). When we went inside the hall, you could hear the buzz

7 of the radio station and then you could hear a voice which said: "Shoot

8 at everything that moves and slaughter everything that comes under your

9 hands."

10 Q. Did you recognise that voice?

11 A. Yes, I recognised the voice of Mr. Velibor Ostojic.

12 Q. On hearing that voice, did you ask your neighbour who it was that

13 was talking?

14 A. Yes. I asked him -- of course my neighbour felt uncomfortable

15 because I heard that. He told me, Listen to that fool, because I said,

16 Was that Ostojic's voice?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I take it you understand why a

18 redaction was needed.

19 MS. EDGERTON: I've been told, Your Honour, yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


22 Q. After hearing what this voice had said, what then did you think?

23 A. I don't know -- what do you mean, What did I think? I knew the

24 voice, it was a threatening voice, and I knew that I couldn't stay there

25 any more, I couldn't survive.

Page 14873

1 Q. Meaning you felt you couldn't stay -- live in your town any

2 longer?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Now, Witness, did you also have occasion to receive any other

5 information about Ostojic's role relating to the takeover of Foca?

6 A. Yes, I received information from my friend who was the president

7 of the Municipal Assembly of Foca.

8 Q. And do you recall what he told you?

9 A. He told me directly, All orders and the commands that were being

10 issued in the town were under the auspices of Maksimovic and the Pale

11 leadership and Ostojic.

12 Q. Now, leaving that area of testimony, Witness 68, we can move back

13 to the statements that you gave previously, which have been marked as

14 exhibits, and I'm just going to ask you some additional or clarifying

15 questions with respect to some paragraphs of those statements.

16 First, with respect to your statement given in 1995, paragraph

17 10, you describe the assistance of a Serb neighbour, which allowed you to

18 escape to Montenegro. Do you think you could have gotten out of Foca on

19 your own?

20 A. No, there was no chance of me doing it by myself, definitely not.

21 Q. And why was that?

22 A. Because my town had already fallen and the neighbourhood where I

23 lived was encircled or surrounded by soldiers.

24 Q. Now, moving on to paragraph 14 of that same statement, you say

25 you saw one Milorad Stevanovic and Zdravko Matovic, both from Foca, on

Page 14874

1 the first day of your detention at the police station.

2 Can I ask you, in the period leading up to the war did you ever

3 see either of these two men Stevanovic or Matovic meeting with high-level

4 SDS leaders?

5 A. I'd had the opportunity to see Stevanovic at his establishment.

6 High-ranking officials frequented his establishment. And Matovic I would

7 encounter, of course. He was working as a police officer.

8 Q. Did you ever see Ostojic or Maksimovic meeting with Stevanovic in

9 the period leading up to the war?

10 A. Yes, at this establishment.

11 Q. Was that on one occasion or more than one occasion, to the best

12 of your recollection?

13 A. I think it was on several occasions.

14 Q. Now, moving on in your statement from 1995 to paragraph 25. That

15 talks about the bus ride in which you were taken to KP Dom Foca. And I'd

16 like to ask you: Was there anybody else on the bus in addition to the

17 Muslim detainees?

18 A. There were another 25 Serbs from Bosnia who had been arrested in

19 Montenegro and were being returned to Republika Srpska, to Bosnia

20 actually, to Foca, to the KP Dom.

21 Q. And who drove the bus?

22 A. A Serb driver.

23 Q. Was that driver uniformed or not?

24 A. Yes, he was wearing a military uniform.

25 Q. Were you under any guard on the bus?

Page 14875

1 A. There were two police officers until the border with Foca.

2 Q. And once over the border, were you still under any guard?

3 A. No, only the driver was there.

4 Q. Now, dealing with your arrival at KP Dom Foca, paragraph number

5 2 -- I misquoted the previous paragraph, by the way. That was paragraph

6 22. And now moving to paragraph 23 and your arrival at KP Dom Foca.

7 Could you tell us what the people outside the prison who received you

8 were wearing?

9 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms.

10 Q. And did they say anything while beating you?

11 A. Yes, they were cursing our balija mothers, insulted us in

12 different ways, beat us.

13 Q. Now, the Radomir Matovic who you mentioned, did you see him again

14 during the course of your detention at KP Dom?

15 A. Yes, I saw him the whole time because he was the number one

16 person in the kitchen, so he was preparing the food all the time.

17 Q. What was he wearing during -- at the time you were being beaten?

18 A. He was also wearing a camouflage uniform.

19 Q. As for the prison personnel who you name in your previous

20 statement, Koroman, Mijovic, and Elcic, what were they wearing?

21 A. Elcic -- yes, they were also wearing military camouflage

22 uniforms.

23 Q. What happened to the Serbs who travelled on the bus with you?

24 A. They were locked up in one room, and then after two days they

25 were sent to the front.

Page 14876

1 Q. Were they also beaten when they arrived at the prison?

2 A. I don't know that and I didn't have the opportunity to see that.

3 Q. Now, just to move on in your statement to your time in which you

4 describe as room 20 and room 11. That's -- the paragraph reference is

5 number 23. Could you just tell us -- give us an idea of how many

6 prisoners or how many detainees were present in room number 20?

7 A. When I first arrived to the room, there were 21 of us. In less

8 than a week, the room was filled with a total of 72 inmates.

9 Q. Do you know largely where they came from?

10 A. All the inmates were from the area of the Foca municipality.

11 Q. Were there any Serbs among them?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And now, once you were transferred to room number 11, do you have

14 an approximate idea of how many detainees were held in that room?

15 A. 71.

16 Q. Do you know largely where they were from as well?

17 A. They were all from the Foca area.

18 Q. And were there any Serbs among them?

19 A. No. There were just two Croats, though.

20 Q. Now, you --

21 A. No, excuse me. There were three Croats.

22 Q. Now, you've indicated in the corrections to your previous

23 statement that during your detention in KP Dom you were beaten four

24 times. That's correct?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 14877

1 Q. And were you locked in the solitary confinement cell after each

2 beating?

3 A. Yes, it always happened like that.

4 Q. And, in fact, in each case did the beatings take place in the

5 solitary confinement cell?

6 A. The beating was conducted in front of the solitary confinement

7 cell.

8 Q. Now, with respect to the first and second occasions in paragraphs

9 26 and 27 of your 1995 statement, you say that two guards called you out

10 and beat you and in fact you name one of the perpetrators. You

11 identified one Zoran Matovic. Is this the same person who arrested you

12 in Montenegro?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, with respect to the third and fourth occasions you were

15 beaten, do you recall who the perpetrators were on that occasion?

16 A. Again, it was Zoran Matovic and Obrenovic.

17 Q. Now, could you just give us an idea about the dimensions of the

18 solitary confinement cells that you were held in?

19 A. 1 metre by 1 metre 20.

20 Q. Now, finally, with respect to paragraph 46 of your 1995

21 statement, you talked about cleaning the room in which the people had

22 been beaten and mention that you saw blood in there. Did you see

23 anything else?

24 MR. STEWART: Wasn't it 45?

25 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, thank you.

Page 14878

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I had the opportunity to clean

2 that room. The walls and the floor were covered with blood and there

3 were some wooden bats or the wooden handles of axes as well as some metal

4 pipes strewn about the room.


6 Q. Now, with respect to those 36 men who you saw called out, have

7 you ever seen any of them alive again?

8 A. No, I didn't -- haven't seen any of them. No.

9 Q. Do you have contacts with some of the families of the individuals

10 who were called out?

11 A. Yes, I had contacts with several families, and they told me that

12 they themselves didn't know anything more than I did and that the bones

13 of their close ones were never found.

14 Q. And in some cases, have you in fact received information that the

15 remains of some of these 36 have been recovered?

16 A. Yes. Two were found. I know about those two, but I don't know

17 anything about the others.

18 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions for you this morning.

19 Thank you, Witness 68.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Since we need a break anyhow, I'd like to take it

23 now. We'll adjourn until quarter past 1.00. When the witness leaves the

24 court, the curtains will be --

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 14879

1 JUDGE ORIE: We need a break of a little bit more due to the

2 redactions which takes some time to be processed. Let's see whether 25

3 minutes will do. 20 minutes past 1.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.55 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, are you ready to cross-examine the

7 witness?

8 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:

11 Q. Witness, in your statement --

12 MR. STEWART: And it's one of the paragraphs that was not

13 introduced, Your Honours, under 89(F), it was dealt with orally this

14 morning.

15 Q. You said -- it was paragraph 9. You describe the radio broadcast

16 that you had overheard of Mr. Ostojic. And then you said: "This was the

17 only time I personally heard Ostojic ordering something. Lojo Taib who

18 told me on several occasions that all orders were issued by Ostojic,

19 Maksimovic, Cancar, Stanic, who were stationed at the Orthodox church in

20 Cohodar at Mahala."

21 When you gave evidence this morning, and this is at page 67 and

22 it comes at line 3: "And do you recall what he told you?"

23 And your answer was: "He told me directly all orders and the

24 commands that were being issued in the town were under the auspices of

25 Maksimovic and the Pale leadership and Ostojic."

Page 14880

1 Now, when you gave your statement, Witness, that was 1995 and you

2 made no mention in your detailed statement there of the Pale leadership.

3 Do you think that perhaps that's something that wasn't staid but has come

4 into your head over the last ten years?

5 A. As for the first question concerning Velibor Ostojic, I said that

6 I had heard him for the first time issuing orders in wartime, and that

7 was when I heard his voice over the radio station.

8 As for the second question, from Taib Lojo, who was the president

9 of the Municipal Assembly and who had met with the SDS leadership before

10 and during the war, of course he knew where the obstacles that were

11 placed in our way came from and where the orders came from.

12 Q. Now, Witness, really what I'm putting to you is this: That three

13 years after the events you gave an account in your statement where you

14 just reported this other person as telling you that all orders were by

15 Ostojic, Maksimovic, Cancar, and Stanic, and then 13 years after the

16 event, here today in court, you introduce a reference to the Pale

17 leadership. And I'm asking you whether perhaps that reference to the

18 Pale leadership was not actually said in 1992 but is something that's

19 just come into your head one way or the other over the last ten years?

20 A. In my previous statements, I was not asked to relate what I had

21 just indicated here and it never occurred to me to do it myself, although

22 I should have done it long ago.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I may put it very directly to the witness.

24 Witness, Mr. Stewart would like to know why in 1995 when you said

25 that other persons told you that all orders were issued by, and you

Page 14881

1 mentioned a few people, a few names. And now you come with a larger

2 description of who issued orders, that is the Pale leadership. Mr.

3 Stewart would like to know whether this has not slipped into your mind

4 one way or the other over the last ten years.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I omitted that part.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The question is: Are you sure that they said at

7 that time not the names you mentioned in 1995, but that they said that it

8 was the Pale leadership?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That person told me that it

10 was mostly from the Pale leadership that the orders came from, or rather

11 that the orders came up from -- up there from Pale.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And how did you then translate at that time

13 the Pale leaderships and the names you mentioned, that is Ostojic,

14 Maksimovic, Cancar, and Stanic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maksimovic, Ostojic, Cancar were

16 the local people who executed the orders, whilst at the same time

17 Maksimovic and Ostojic were part of the Pale leadership and they were

18 simply sent back to their town to do the job.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Is that what they told you or is that what you, for

20 whatever reason, conclude by now?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what I was told and

22 that is also a conclusion that I arrived at.

23 MR. STEWART: You said --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Stewart.


Page 14882

1 Q. You said a few moments ago: "In my previous statements I was not

2 asked to relate what I had just indicated here and it never occurred to

3 me to do it myself, although I should have done it long ago."

4 Are you saying that the suggestion about the reference to Pale

5 leadership has come from somebody else rather than from yourself?

6 A. No. Nobody suggested that to me, but probably I was bothered by

7 the experience from the camp and I was preoccupied with my health and it

8 only occurred to me now. I just hope it's not too late.

9 MR. STEWART: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

11 Mr. Krajisnik, do you have any questions for the witness? And I

12 may remind you that protective measures are in place, Mr. Krajisnik.

13 That also means that if the witness is answering the question, you should

14 switch off your microphone. Please proceed.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 I extend my greetings to the witness and I would like to put a

17 question to him.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajisnik:

19 Q. [Interpretation] When the witness says that he received

20 information from the president of -- or rather, that the president of the

21 municipality received orders from Pale, when did this take place?

22 A. It took place right before the war. The president of the

23 municipality was in contact with the president of the Executive Board of

24 my municipality, Mr. Mladjenovic, and they together -- they were in

25 contact together, they exchanged information, and knew what was going on

Page 14883

1 in the municipality.

2 Q. Witness, do you know that until after 8th of April the SDS

3 leadership was in Sarajevo and not at Pale?

4 A. As far as I know, the SDS leadership was active from Pale on the

5 8th of April because there was a war on in Sarajevo.

6 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber who the republican-level

7 functionaries were from Foca.

8 A. In what sense do you mean? In terms of the party that they

9 belonged to?

10 Q. I mean both in terms of the party and the republican level.

11 A. During the war or?

12 Q. I'm talking about the pre-war period.

13 A. I was not that familiar with the leadership. I was not into

14 politics.

15 Q. I would like to refresh your memory. Can you tell me who your

16 deputies from Foca were?

17 A. Believe me, I don't know.

18 Q. Do you know the names of Sahim Pasic and Cancar?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Would you disagree with me if I told you they were the Foca

21 deputies in the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina for both peoples?

22 A. I would not disagree because I don't know anything about it.

23 Q. Do you know that Mr. Muhamed Cengic from Foca also visited Foca,

24 as did the others?

25 A. Yes, Muhamed Cengic did come.

Page 14884












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14885

1 Q. Did Mr. Velibor Ostojic, Muhamed Cengic, Vojislav Maksimovic,

2 Sahim Pasic, Cancar -- were they all born in Foca or around Foca?

3 A. Yes, they were all born around Foca.

4 Q. Do you know that Mr. Velibor Ostojic and Maksimovic lived in

5 Sarajevo before the war?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Maksimovic was a member of the Serbian

8 Democratic Party?

9 A. I used to see him at the meetings of the Serb Democratic Party.

10 Q. Could you clarify your answer. Was he a member of the SDS before

11 the war and in 1992?

12 A. I would not be able to confirm that because I don't know. How

13 should I know who the SDS members were?

14 Q. Did you read quite a large article by Mr. Halid Cengic concerning

15 the arming of the Muslims in Foca?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. Do you know that in the beginning of the war there was no

18 electricity in Foca?

19 A. Yes, there was no electricity in Foca in the beginning of the

20 war.

21 Q. Could you please tell us who interrogated the inmates. Was it

22 done by the civilian or military authorities?

23 A. The interrogators were from the military structure.

24 Q. Was Mr. Krnojelac competent or had he -- did he have competence

25 over those who interrogated the inmates?

Page 14886

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. In relation to your description of the solitary confinement cell,

3 can you tell us whether the prison where you were kept had prior to the

4 war been designated for prisoners?

5 A. Yes. Even before the war KP Dom was a place where prisoners,

6 offenders were held.

7 Q. And the solitary confinement cell, was it used before the war for

8 the purposes of the prison?

9 A. Yes, it was.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. I

11 thank the Trial Chamber.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

13 Witness, 068 -- let me first see whether there are any questions.

14 The Chamber has no questions for you. Is there any need to

15 re-examine the witness, Ms. Edgerton?

16 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then this could not trigger any additional questions

18 to the witness.

19 Witness 068, I'd like to thank you very much for having come to

20 The Hague and for answering the questions put to you. It was a short

21 examination, but you are aware that the Chamber has available your

22 written statements; they are in evidence as well.

23 Perhaps it's practical that the witness waits for a second until

24 this session is over so that we don't have to pull the curtains down at

25 this very moment because of one or two short announcements to make.

Page 14887

1 MS. EDGERTON: If I may, Your Honour, before those short

2 announcements, could we deal with the exhibits?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we can deal with the exhibits. Relatively

4 simple today. I take it we have P806 up to and including P810. They

5 have all been described already. And I do not hear any objections, so

6 therefore they are --

7 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, no objection.

8 JUDGE ORIE: They are admitted into evidence. And just to make

9 sure, these are the redacted versions of the statements.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, given the protective measures they

11 should all be under seal.

12 JUDGE ORIE: They should be under seal. Yes. I said that

13 already for 806, but that's true for the others as well.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I must make one announcement in order not to lose

16 pace, the Chamber is exploring whether we could have later this week some

17 extended sessions. Primarily we are thinking about Thursday -- this is

18 just to announce to the parties so that they are prepared and they could

19 at this moment say that extended sessions would be impossible or would be

20 preferred on Wednesday or Friday. There is some space in the courtroom.

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour.


23 MR. STEWART: I just want to say straight away. I'm having a

24 meeting with my co-counsel this afternoon, at which one of our major

25 issues on the agenda is whether the present pace is manageable.

Page 14888


2 MR. STEWART: A heavier pace, Your Honour, I can put that as item

3 1 be on our agenda this afternoon as well. But I will indicate, Your

4 Honour, that to consider it may be, Your Honour, that in relation to

5 (redacted) and

6 well, Your Honour --


8 MR. STEWART: I'm not being difficult about it and I would

9 think --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. -- can we just turn to private session and

11 could we have a redaction.

12 MR. STEWART: Sorry, I beg your pardon. That's --

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

Page 14889

1 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. Still with respect to the witness who is

2 present before us, he doesn't speak anymore but face distortion should

3 still be there if -- whenever he would be caught by one of the cameras.

4 Yes, I do understand. I'm not talking about a dramatic -- it's

5 rather regaining, although I understand that the same would be valid for

6 regaining time lost. We're not talking about days and days, we're

7 talking about to see whether we could finish with the witnesses scheduled

8 for this week. But I took on board your observation, Mr. Stewart.

9 MR. STEWART: Yes, and I hope Your Honour understands that I

10 certainly will not be unnecessarily obstructive in relation to a

11 particular witness on particular days. If it's manageable on that

12 occasion, then I won't take the general point, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I mainly said it in order to give you an opportunity

14 to say, well, Thursday afternoon would be very bad for us for this and

15 this reason or Wednesday would be better or Friday would be good. I do

16 understand that the whole increase of the pace is not something which

17 is --

18 MR. STEWART: It's not welcome, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It's not welcome, not favoured.

20 Okay. Is there any other matter at this moment?

21 MR. HARMON: Nothing on behalf of the Prosecution, Your Honour.


23 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of

Page 14890

1 June, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.