1 Tuesday, 28 June 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you
6 please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Before we give you, Mr. Tieger, the opportunity to call your next
11 witness, I'd like to deliver a decision on the sixth batch of 92 bis
13 This is a decision on the sixth batch of 92 bis witnesses.
14 I briefly recall that the Chamber is seized of the Prosecution's
15 motion for the admission of 92 bis evidence filed on the 6th of June,
16 2003, seventh motion, and of another motion filed on the 29th of May, 2003
17 in which the Prosecution submitted the report of expert witness Ewa Tabeau
18 under Rule 92 bis.
19 Madam Registrar, may I ask you to -- I take it at least you have
20 received a handout to be - yes - distributed. It's a list showing the
21 names of the 92 bis witnesses who are not required to attend for
22 cross-examination. Could it be distributed to the parties.
23 I will deliver the Chamber's decision concerning these witnesses.
24 With respect to witnesses Zujo and Mesic, the Prosecution agreed
25 to the Defence's suggestion that the Prosecution review and resubmit the
1 material in a more orderly fashion.
2 In respect of witness Dobraca, the Prosecution indicated to the
3 Chamber last Friday, the 24th of June, when it was explicitly invited to
4 give its comment, that the material for this witness is also under review.
5 The Chamber therefore grants the Prosecution's request to defer the
6 Chamber's decision in respect of these three witnesses. Mr. Tieger, the
7 Chamber would like to know when it will receive the material in a more
8 orderly fashion.
9 As far as expert witnesses Hunt, Wright, and Clark are concerned,
10 the Chamber, in accordance with the submissions of both the Defence and
11 the Prosecution, has no objection to the admission into evidence of the
12 requested material and will not ask the witnesses to appear for
14 In respect of witness Kaiser, having read the material proposed
15 for admission, the Chamber has decided to admit the report. The Chamber
16 will not admit either of the transcripts at this time, but invites the
17 Prosecution to inform the Chamber about whether it intended to seek
18 admission of the transcripts in their entirety, since no portions are
19 highlighted. Witness Kaiser will not be required to appear for
21 In relation to witness Tabeau, the report, as shown in the
22 handout, is admitted. Neither the Prosecution nor the Defence requested
23 that the witness appear for cross-examination. However, the Chamber would
24 like to leave open the possibility of asking the witness Tabeau to provide
25 more details about the conclusions reached in her report and will decide
1 at a later stage whether she should be called.
2 I now turn to witness Thompson. Since the witness is not very
3 precise about the sources of the information in his report, the Chamber
4 agrees with the parties that the witness should be called for
5 cross-examination. The material associated with this witness is therefore
6 not shown in the handout. Material relating to this witness will be
7 admitted into evidence, subject to any further objections, at the time the
8 witness is heard in cross-examination.
9 The report of witness Donia describes itself as a background
10 report and develops a thesis on the genesis of Republika Srpska. The
11 subject of the report naturally calls for selection of materials and
12 interpretation of facts. No analysis of a significant historical episode
13 has ever passed unchallenged. The Defence may well decide to challenge
14 Donia's thesis during the presentation of its case, if we come to that.
15 However, the Chamber feels that it is important to take the opportunity to
16 test this report already at this stage of the proceedings. Due to the
17 so-called background nature of the report, the Chamber will not, however,
18 allow the parties to spend a great deal of time on it. At the same time,
19 the Chamber intends to give each party a fair opportunity to challenge the
20 views developed by the other party's background experts, and to test the
21 material which supports those views.
22 In respect of Donia, the Chamber has therefore decided the
23 following: The Chamber will admit his report and allow the Defence
24 approximately three hours to cross-examine him. In addition, in order for
25 cross-examination to be efficient and focused, the Defence may apply for
1 admission of small portions of Donia's testimony in other proceedings.
2 And of course the Chamber would not be surprised if that would very much
3 focus on those portions where Donia is cross-examined. Such an
4 application for admission of small portions should be made not later than
5 one week prior to the date on which Donia is scheduled to testify. The
6 Prosecution will also be allowed to apply for the admission of small
7 portions of Donia's evidence in previous cases. This should be done no
8 later than the day before the witness is scheduled to testify.
9 The Chamber requests that the Prosecution submit the material
10 admitted through this decision to Madam Registrar, and in due course,
11 Madam Registrar will assign exhibit numbers to those items and inform the
12 parties and the Chamber. I also kindly ask Madam Registrar to file the
14 This concludes the Chamber's decision on the sixth batch of 92 bis
16 Then, Mr. Tieger, are you ready to call your next witness?
17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I just raise a couple of very
18 short practical points?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. STEWART: One is that recently the Trial Chamber, Mr. Zahar
21 specifically, very helpfully responded to requests from me that these
22 handouts, which must exist on a computer, could also be sent by e-mail.
23 It's useful to us to keep them in an electronic file.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I'll ask the legal officer to get in such with
25 Mr. Zahar to take care of that.
1 MR. STEWART: I think there may be a tiny backlog on that and it
2 would be much appreciated if we could have a complete batch of these
3 handouts. I see nodding and that's obviously not a problem.
4 The second point is only this: In the light of what Your Honour
5 has said in relation to Mr. Donia, may I simply through Your Honours, and
6 since we're all in Court, particularly ask for close liaison in relation
7 to that witness. A date for him has not been indicated in any draft
8 schedule. He's a floater, in a sense, and given the timetable that Your
9 Honour indicates and given that when one is trying to deal with these
10 advanced matters for witness one is at the same time dealing with another
11 witness, if we could have especially close liaison and as much notice as
12 possible of what is contemplated in relation to him, that would be greatly
14 MR. TIEGER: Certainly, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I can imagine that you did not schedule him,
16 Mr. Tieger, because the OTP objected against cross-examination as being no
17 need to cross-examine Donia.
18 MR. TIEGER: That's correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. STEWART: I understand the reasons and we have a high degree
21 of cooperation over these things, Your Honour, so --
22 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. You have the commitment of Mr. Tieger.
23 Then your next witness. No protective measures.
24 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It will be Mr. Tupajic, I take it.
1 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness into
3 the courtroom.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 WITNESS: MILAN TUPAJIC
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Tupajic, I take it. Before you
8 give evidence in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require
9 you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole
10 truth, and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to make that solemn
11 declaration of which the text is now handed out to you by the usher.
12 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tupajic. Please be seated.
14 Mr. Tupajic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Tieger, counsel for
15 the Prosecution.
16 Examined by Mr. Tieger:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tupajic.
18 A. [No interpretation].
19 Q. I would like to begin by providing the Court with some indication
20 of your basic personal and political background, and I will do that by
21 simply reciting some of those markers as in summary form and just ask for
22 your confirmation if that's accurate.
23 First of all, I understand you were born and raised in Sokolac,
24 where you went to elementary school and high school.
25 A. [No interpretation].
1 JUDGE ORIE: I do not receive English translation on channel 4.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born in the village of
3 Knezina, which is a village in the municipality of Sokolac, and this is
4 where I also completed my primary education.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Thank you. In 1978, you graduated from the faculty of mechanical
7 engineering in Sarajevo?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And thereafter worked at the Famos factory in Hrasnica for
10 approximately six years before returning to Sokolac?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In August of 1990, you joined the SDS party.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Returning briefly to your professional background, until 1991 you
15 were in charge of production and later head of the department at a factory
16 in Sokolac municipality?
17 A. Yes. That was a factory for the production of bearings that was
18 jointly built by Unis and a company from Geteborg.
19 Q. In 1991, you became president of the Sokolac Municipal Assembly
20 when the previous president left.
21 A. Yes. And in the meantime, sometime in May or June, the factory
22 had stopped working.
23 Q. In April 1992, you became president of the Sokolac Crisis Staff?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In 1996, you were elected to the National Assembly as an SDS
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And from 1998 until last year, you served as president of the SDS
4 deputies' club.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And so the Court is aware of that, the cessation of your term in
7 the Assembly and as president of the deputies' club was at the behest of
8 the special representative?
9 A. Pursuant to the decision of the high representative on the removal
10 of the representatives from Republika Srpska, amongst whom I also found
12 Q. And finally --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. And you also became a member of the SDS Main Board in 2002?
16 A. I believe that this was in 2002, actually.
17 Q. I think that was an example of mistranslation or misstatement on
18 my part, but yes, I understood that that was in 2002. Thank you.
19 Can you tell us quickly the approximate population of Sokolac
20 municipality in 1990 and 1991 and the breakdown of Serbs and Muslims, of
21 their population within the municipality?
22 A. According to the 1991 census, which was the last census in Bosnia
23 and Herzegovina, the municipality of Sokolac had 15.000 inhabitants of
24 whom 70 per cent were Serbs, 30 per cent were Muslims, and there were only
25 a couple of dozen Croats who resided in the territory of Sokolac.
1 Q. Now, earlier you indicated that you became president of the
2 Sokolac Crisis Staff in April of 1992. Is that when the Sokolac Crisis
3 Staff was established?
4 A. Well, yes. As far as I can remember, the first session was held
5 on the 6th of April pursuant to a telegram and an order that arrived from
6 Mr. Karadzic and which was sent not only to us in Sokolac, but I suppose
7 at the time, which later turned to be true, was sent to other
8 municipalities as well. Those were either new Serbian municipalities or
9 the municipalities that had existed before, that were established after
10 the elections. So this telegram and this order was sent to all the
11 municipalities in the then Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 MR. TIEGER: Can I ask that an exhibit be placed before the
13 witness, and that exhibit is one familiar to the Court, it's the
14 instructions of 19 December 1991.
15 I recall the Court's previous admonition, Your Honour, and --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We also do know that there are many versions,
17 some of them in evidence. This is the handwritten number 27.
18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you for that clarification. And we'll again do
19 our best to ensure it's not duplicated again.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not clear. It's the handwritten and circled 27
21 copy which bears the copy number 93, 093.
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. Witness, looking at this document, copy number 93 of the
24 instructions for the organisation and activities of the organs of the Serb
25 people in Bosnia and Herzegovina in a state of emergency, are you familiar
1 with that document?
2 A. I'm familiar with the document, although I never had it on my
3 files. It was sent by the Main Board to the presidents of the municipal
4 boards. It was confidential. I believe that we discussed this document
5 at the sessions of the Municipal Board, but we members of the Municipal
6 Board were never familiarised with the integral text of the instruction.
7 However, we were familiar with the contents, the essence of the
9 Q. Now, looking at portions of the document, can you tell us whether
10 or not some of the steps enumerated in the document under the first level
11 were implemented in Sokolac?
12 A. In view of the fact that this part of the document deals with the
13 necessity to provide security, even physical security to certain
14 facilities in municipalities, and in view of the fact that the most
15 important facility for us or, rather, the most important feature was the
16 source of Biostica River, because it is the source of potable water for
17 the entire municipality, we got from the TO staff resources to lay
18 minefields around this source because it is close to Knezina village,
19 securing it in this way, because we were afraid that some extremist group
20 could carry out the sabotage action of poisoning the water. Then we
21 needed to build up stocks of the basic necessities in Sokolac, expecting
22 certain developments in the future.
23 Q. Now, with reference to the security measures taken in connection
24 with the water supply, is that a reference to step 6 under the first level
25 of Variant A? "The organisation and protection for important facilities
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 in the municipality is to be strengthened."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were other steps enumerated in the document also implemented?
4 A. I think the Territorial Defence Staff carried out certain
5 preparations within its own purview, such as checking and analysing the
6 condition and the readiness of all the weapons stockpiled in the TO depot.
7 That was normal for peacetime. And they also checked the condition and
8 readiness of communications.
9 Q. You mentioned at the very end of your discussion about the steps
10 taken in connection with the water supply the need to build up stocks of
11 basic necessities. Can you tell us any specific actions -- can you tell
12 us first whether that was a reference to step 7 in the document?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And can you tell us any specific actions undertaken pursuant to
15 step 7?
16 A. I remember that these activities were handled by the President of
17 the Executive Board at the time, but there was one occasion when we went
18 together to Sarajevo to visit the Klas enterprise which, among other
19 things, had certain warehouses holding wheat crops. Drago Podinic was in
20 that enterprise. And there were also wheat warehouses in the surrounding
21 area of Pale. And we had certain talks with these people but without
22 particular success, because this Drago Podinic, the director, had his own
23 relationships, better relationships, with certain agricultural
24 cooperatives, and he was not particularly interested in providing us with
25 what we needed. And we had asked him to look into the matter because we
1 did not know exactly what quantities were in the warehouses, and most of
2 the wheat came from Serbia. So our request to him was to ensure that they
3 are filled, these warehouses.
4 Q. Step 3 of the document provides for the establishment or formation
5 of a Crisis Staff of the Serb people in the municipality. Do you know why
6 that step was not taken until the receipt of the telegram from Dr.
7 Karadzic in early April 1992?
8 A. We officially established the Crisis Staff of Sokolac municipality
9 after receiving the telegram from Mr. Karadzic. To this day, I don't
10 understand completely whether these were supposed to be staffs on the
11 level of SDS or on the level of municipalities involving presidents of
12 other parties, because in certain municipalities there were SDS crisis
13 staffs, whereas in Sokolac, since we had complete control over the
14 municipalities, there were no particular activities to set up an SDS
15 Crisis Staff, and if one was formed at all, it was formed as part of the
16 Municipal Board of the SDS.
17 Q. Mr. Tupajic, can I next turn your attention to an excerpt from
18 your daily agenda or notebook that appears closest to an entry of 17
19 January 1992. And actually, looking more carefully at the preceding page
20 and the page on which the particular entry to which I want to direct your
21 attention appears, it seems there's a reference to January 17, 1991, and
22 January 22, 1991. Can you tell us first, looking at your diary or journal
23 or agenda, whether that's actually a reference -- that's a reference
24 correctly to 1991 or it's actually a reference to 1992.
25 A. I wrote 1991 by mistake. It was in fact 1992.
1 Q. Now, the --
2 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, I failed to ask for exhibit
3 numbers --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It will be Exhibit P827.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Next time if you use page numbering,
8 Mr. Tieger, it would be a good idea not to give the same number to every
10 MR. TIEGER: That would seem to defeat the purpose.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. TIEGER:
13 Q. And, Mr. Tupajic, I'd like to direct your attention to a list of
14 names that appears, I believe, at the ERN 0115-1332, and in particular to
15 the line "Rajko Dukic and Crisis Staff, 277-001." Do you see that, sir?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. Could you tell us first who Rajko Dukic was?
18 A. Rajko Dukic was born in Milici municipality. As far as I know, he
19 was then member of the Main Board, and for a short while he was also
20 President of the Executive Board of the Serbian Democratic Party.
21 Q. And could you tell the Court what this excerpt is a reference to?
22 What Crisis Staff --
23 A. I think -- I think this is a reference to the Crisis Staff on the
24 level of the Serbian Democratic Party of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia
25 and Herzegovina, as it was known even then. And this is a telephone
1 number where he could be reached. Somebody else wrote the number in their
2 own hand in my agenda, because at the time I didn't know Mr. Dukic at all.
3 MR. TIEGER: I'd like to turn our attention next briefly to the --
4 some of the functions and activities of the Crisis Staff in Sokolac, and
5 may I ask that the next exhibit be placed before the witness. That bears
6 the ERN of 0115-1663. And, Your Honour, may that be assigned an exhibit
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P828.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Mr. Tupajic, P828 is a decision of the Sokolac Crisis Staff that
12 bears the date May 29, 1992.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. It indicates in item 1 that the following members of the Sokolac
15 Crisis Staff bear the status of mobilised persons. Can you explain that
16 briefly to the Court, the significance of that?
17 A. Well, you see, in the department of the Defence Ministry that
18 existed in Sokolac municipality, as in every other municipality, all
19 able-bodied men fit for military service had to be registered and had to
20 have a certain assignment. Most of them were assigned to the units of the
21 army of Republika Srpska, a certain number was assigned to the Ministry of
22 the Interior, a certain number had labour assignments, and only we in the
23 Crisis Staff had a sort of labour assignment but without it being
24 officially assigned.
25 We received information from Mr. Ceranic, head of the Crisis
1 Staff, that in view of the work we were doing, we will have the benefit of
2 service time spent in this job being counted double, as other mobilised
3 people have. I asked on that occasion that we receive more detailed
4 information on what we were supposed to do from the body that set up the
5 Crisis Staff in the first place. Of course this time of service was never
6 counted double in our total years of service, although we did spend some
7 time on the Crisis Staff.
8 Q. Item 2 of the decision reflected in P828 states that "The above
9 mentioned members of the Crisis Staff are obliged to ensure the
10 functioning of authority, commercial and social life at the level of the
11 Municipality, collaborating with the responsible commands of the Serbian
12 Army and with the Government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina on all vital issues."
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did that accurately reflect the role of the Crisis Staff or are
16 there aspects of the Crisis Staff's function that you'd like to elaborate
17 on in connection with its obligations?
18 A. Essentially, yes, it does capture the role of the Crisis Staff,
19 although here, in addition to communicating with the responsible commands
20 of the army, we also communicated with police stations that had an
21 important role in providing governance in Sokolac municipality, and there
22 were a number of other vital issues to be handled.
23 Q. Well, perhaps we can look at a few of the records of the Sokolac
24 Crisis Staff in that connection.
25 MR. TIEGER: May the next exhibit be placed before the witness.
1 That's 0115-1514 through 1515, the conclusions of the Sokolac Crisis Staff
2 from 20 April 1992.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be, may I suggest, P829.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Mr. Tupajic, let me direct your attention to conclusion number 4
7 of P829, which states that "Competent organs should carry out the order
8 issued by Ministry of Defence of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina within a given period, provided that, prior to that, the
10 President of the Crisis Staff and commander of TO staff meet with the
11 minister of defence on account of the issue of keeping a part of the
12 equipment in the territory of the Sokolac Municipality."
13 Could you tell us what order of the Ministry of Defence was the
14 subject of this conclusion and anything else about that conclusion which
15 needs to be elaborated.
16 A. In the days preceding this, there was a major operation wherein a
17 considerable amount of weapons and equipment were evacuated from the depot
18 in Faletici near Sarajevo, and that depot then belonged to the republican
19 staff of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it was holding stockpiles of weapons
20 and equipment for the reserve force, of course before the war in
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. A considerable part of that equipment was exported,
22 taken away to various places including Sokolac, including also Pale and
23 Mokro, and the order of the Ministry of Defence was to concentrate all
24 that equipment in one place. However, our people in the TO staff, since
25 they played a certain part in the transport and stocking of weapons and
1 equipment, tried to keep a certain quantity together with accompanying
2 documentation. For instance, they thought they did not have enough
3 communication devices, and in their estimate they needed more.
4 MR. STEWART: May I comment something? It's a little bit -- maybe
5 it's simply a coincidence, but we were supplied on the 18th of May with a
6 list of potential exhibits, and then we were supplied more recently with
7 another list of potential exhibits which mainly related to diary entries.
8 The list on the 18th of May was quite long. It contained 65 or 66 files,
9 something like that. It may be just coincidence, but neither of Exhibits
10 828 nor 829 is on that list. So in the very early batch of exhibits we
11 get we find, extraordinarily enough, that those items were not in that
12 rather large quantity of material. It's a -- it's a bit of a coincidence.
13 It may be just that, and maybe I'm missing something, but we have a lot of
14 items dated the 20th of May on that list, but not this one. And then the
15 previous one, I think, was 20th of April, and the previous one was 29th of
16 May. If I'm assured that this is just a coincidence with these first two
17 items and that this is not gong to be a repeated pattern then I'll feel
18 more comfortable, but if we're going to get a whole batch of exhibits
19 which, extraordinarily enough, don't coincide with the rather large
20 quantity of materials supplied to us, then I am going to be more
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: Well, first of all, I'm sorry if that's the case. I
24 think Mr. Stewart knows I've always made myself available to the extent
25 humanly possible to advise him as soon as I knew of the even particular
1 exhibits I intended to use in my presentation.
2 As far as I know, yes, it is just a coincidence. It's certainly
3 not by any means an effort to keep from the Defence any understanding of
4 the items we intend to present, and I'm more than happy at any time,
5 including the first break or even now, to advise Mr. Stewart of the items
6 I intend to use in the course of this particular presentation.
7 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I'm considerably reassured. It's
8 perfectly true, I acknowledge that whole-heartedly, it's perfectly true
9 that Mr. Tieger and I in relation to a number of witnesses have had very
10 cooperative communication, so there's no question of that, and it appears
11 this may be just coincidence. I wanted to raise it now. If it is, then
12 as I said, I'm perfectly happy. So it seems that we can sort this out
13 without too much difficulty, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Proceed, Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Thank you, Mr. Stewart.
17 Your Honour, I'd like the witness to be presented with -- I'd like
18 to have two documents marked because they're very closely related. The
19 first is ET 0124-6838. The second is ET 0124-6884.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar. The first one would be ...
21 THE REGISTRAR: P830.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And the second one?
23 THE REGISTRAR: P831.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
25 MR. STEWART: I'm happy to say, Your Honour, that was on that
1 original list.
2 MR. TIEGER: If it's helpful, I don't know exactly when this was
3 provided to Mr. Stewart, but he does have the most current list, which is
4 the three-page document which has 28 enumerated items.
5 Q. Mr. Tupajic, unless I have the order confused, P830 is a document
6 dated May 11, 1992, reflecting a document sent by the government secretary
7 Nedeljko Lakic, asking for six tons of food to be provided to the Crisis
8 Staff of Vogosca from Sokolac, and P831 is a document from the 9th of May,
9 1992, asking Sokolac to provide five tons of food for the needs of the
10 Crisis Staff of Ilijas. In both cases the issued goods are to be billed
11 to the budget of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
12 Do you know how the government determined both the need on the
13 part of Vogosca and Ilijas for food, on the one hand, and the ability of
14 Sokolac to provide such food?
15 A. I suppose that this request to the Sokolac municipality by the
16 government came after requests from Vogosca and Ilijas, which had it much
17 harder. At that time, we were conducting certain activities precisely
18 with a view to providing reserves of some basic necessities in cooperation
19 with certain enterprises such as Romaninka and Romanija Sokolac, who
20 imported food mainly in barter deals with Serbia, and the level of
21 reserves in Sokolac at the time was relatively good. At certain -- at
22 that time, we even had surpluses of certain foods.
23 Q. So the government determined that Vogosca and Ilijas needed food,
24 that Sokolac had food, and arranged for the transfer of that food to the
25 -- to those municipalities.
1 A. No. They asked from us to deliver certain quantities of food, and
2 I suppose that our companies, using their own vehicles, supplied those
3 foods. I believe that it had been coordinated in terms of the types of
4 food, but this request of the government was complied with by the Crisis
5 Staff, and this message was passed on to either one or both of these
6 companies. I don't know which one. And they were the ones that
7 implemented the request.
8 Q. And I'd like to look quickly at another exhibit. That's
9 ET 0115-1554.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number?
11 THE REGISTRAR: P832.
12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
13 Q. Mr. Tupajic, P832 is a document that reflects conclusions of the
14 Crisis Staff of Sokolac municipality from May 5, 1992. The first
15 conclusion addresses the issue of the Sokolac psychiatric hospital, and
16 reflects in the last sentence that: "The Crisis Staff shall forward the
17 mentioned report to the Prime Minister and the Ministry of Health of
18 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
19 Is this a reflection of further coordination with and contact with
20 the republic level authorities?
21 A. The psychiatric hospital of Sokolac, at the beginning of the war,
22 was nothing but a burden to us, to the Crisis Staff. It was the biggest
23 psychiatric hospital in Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war, and it still
24 is. It has a number, a great number of patients.
25 When the war started, nobody looked after those patients. At the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 initiative of the chief administrator of the hospital, we discussed the
2 problems that the staff and the patients of the hospital faced, and we
3 wanted to deal with the problem. It was the Ministry of Health and the
4 Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina who were supposed to deal with the
5 problem, but we ourselves took it upon ourselves to collect information
6 and to forward this information to the competent ministry and the
7 government that would then try and solve at least part of the hospital's
9 Q. And if we -- I'd like to direct our attention next to decisions
10 and orders to -- or within Sokolac municipality from the Crisis Staff to
11 local organs. And if I could turn your attention first to the next
12 exhibit, which is 0115-1513.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before we move to that, could I ask one additional
15 Mr. Tupajic, the document we just discussed on the psychiatric
16 hospitals, what was the use of receiving reports including the ethnicity
17 of the patients?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the psychiatric
19 hospital of Sokolac, this problem has still not been resolved. A great
20 number of patients, I don't know how many, come from the area of the
21 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was the case then and it is
22 still the case. And this was done in order to try and show the competent
23 organs of the republic that help was needed. This is how the hospital
24 always functioned. All the municipalities and the competent ministries
25 were obliged to co-finance the work of this hospital. The debts from the
1 war still persist.
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... stop you. In
3 these conclusions, the information should include the municipalities where
4 they come from, that's what seems to be the core of your answer, but it
5 also mentions the ethnicity. It reads: "Information on the number of
6 patients, their ethnicity, and municipalities that they come from."
7 Your answer seems to focus on the last one, whereas my question
8 was about ethnicity. What difference does it make whether a patient is --
9 a psychiatric patient is Serb, Croat, Muslim?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a matter of fact, you can see
11 from the second part of the conclusion, Mr. President, this was not
12 important to us. However, we believed that this is information that would
13 be requested from us from the ministry as in the meantime there had been
14 some sort of restructuring. We wanted to provide the government with
15 comprehensive information based on which it would see what realistic
16 measures it could take.
17 In the second part of the conclusion, we ask from the management
18 of the hospital to show a completely identical attitude towards all the
19 patients in the hospital and to behave towards all the same -- all of them
20 in the same way.
21 JUDGE ORIE: In what way realistic measures to be taken could be
22 different on the basis of ethnicity?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, we did not expect it
24 to be realistically possible from the Ministry of Health of Republic of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina to receive anything from the Republic of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is, we did not expect the Republika Srpska to
2 get anything from Bosnia and Herzegovina. But we wanted to get the
3 competent ministry on board, because by law it should have been
4 responsible for the functioning and work of the psychiatric hospital. It
5 was a state hospital, it was not a local health institution such as, for
6 example, a medical centre.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. None of your answers addressed the matter I
9 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER: And I'm sorry, Your Honour, I didn't note whether
11 0115-1511 had yet received an exhibit number.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: P833.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. Mr. Tupajic, P833 is an order of the Sokolac municipality Crisis
16 Staff of 20 April, 1992, that the officials of Sokolac public security
17 station together with JNA security organs should work on identifying those
18 involved in the theft of the military equipment from Faletici. And in
19 items 2 and 3 -- that is reflected in -- you don't have that in front of
20 you, sir?
21 A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. I have a different order before me. No.
22 Again I have two of the same.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just see. 833 is the 20 --
24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the relevant ERN is 0115-1511. The date
25 of this order is 20 April 1992.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not the one that has been distributed to
2 us as being 833.
3 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry for that confusion.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Distributed was last four digits 1513, dated 21st of
6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, before we undo this, let me just proceed
7 to that particular item as P833.
8 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Mr. Tieger, I'd like to draw your
9 attention to the fact if we spend the time as we did on one of these
10 exhibits, it would take us 45 minutes for just distribution of these kind
11 of exhibits, so if the logistics could be better organised then that would
12 certainly save us half an hour a day. Yes, please proceed.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. Mr. Tupajic, do you still have that same document that you were
15 just looking at in front of you, the document dated 21 April of 1992? It
16 was --
17 A. I have. But I still don't have the document that you have just
18 mentioned, Mr. Prosecutor.
19 Q. We'll just look at this document. P833 is an order of the Sokolac
20 municipality Crisis Staff dated 21 April 1992, and it reflects an order
21 that the municipal Secretariat for National Defence of the Sokolac
22 municipality is obliged to immediately take all legal measures against
23 persons who did not respond to the call for mobilisation. In item II it
24 directs that the municipal Secretariat for National Defence will cooperate
25 with the military police in taking legal measures against persons who
1 deserted, and in item III it indicates that the order comes into effect
3 So does this order, sir, reflect the Crisis Staff's directions to
4 the municipal secretariat to take appropriate actions or actions it deemed
5 appropriate in connection with this issue?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you know whether such actions were taken?
8 A. They were taken. I don't know how efficient they were. I believe
9 that there was never 100 per cent efficiency in their implementation.
10 Q. Okay. And can we look next at the document to which I was
11 previously referring, the 20 April 1992 order, ERN ET 0115-1511.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, in relation to the previous document, we
13 now know that were not -- the measures taken were not full hundred per
14 cent efficient but what they were is still totally unclear apart from that
15 there were legal measures and apart from all legal measures. Will we find
16 some information about the type of action taken?
17 MR. TIEGER:
18 Q. Mr. Tupajic, before we address this current document, the Court
19 noted that although you indicated that the measures taken were not 100 per
20 cent efficient, I failed to ask you to indicate to the best of your
21 recollection what measures were taken by the municipal Secretariat for
22 National Defence in response to the order of the Crisis Staff on 21 April
24 A. What was to be done by the Secretariat of the National Defence in
25 keeping with the law was to file reports against the people who did not
1 respond. In the second part of this order, it says that the military
2 police, which existed as part of the 1st Romanija Brigade of the JNA,
3 could bring in people that failed to comply with their legal obligations.
4 Q. And can you tell us whether those steps were indeed taken, that is
5 whether reports were filed and people were brought in in response to item
6 II for failing to report or for deserting?
7 A. I believe so, Mr. Prosecutor. I don't have any information to
8 corroborate that from the misdemeanour courts. However, I believe that
9 measures were taken. I don't know how effective they were, but I believe
10 that they did have some impact. However, not as much as was expected.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What do you exactly mean by bringing in people? Were
12 they detained? Were they kept? Were they taken from their houses?
13 It's ...
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that -- actually, we have
15 two categories of people that we're talking about. The first category
16 were those who were already members of the Territorial Defence, and they
17 deserted. They moved to Serbia and never came back during the war. Some
18 of those who deserted from the units came back home and from their homes
19 they would be taken back to the unit from which they had deserted.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that would be for everyone who had fled?
21 Would that be true for Serbs? Would that be true for Croats? Would that
22 be true for Muslims?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. In the course of 1991, almost
24 all Muslims deserted. They left, although they were members of the
25 regular JNA units. They refused to take part in TRO units, and that's why
1 they were never assigned to any of them. So this applied only to Serbs.
2 As I've already told you, there were only a couple of dozen Croats, and
3 they were not important from the point of view of military obligations.
4 And as far as I can remember, there were no able-bodied Croats at the
5 time. None of them fell under the military obligation category.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So where you say that is about people that
7 deserted, this, although it don't say explicitly so, this order and what
8 you testified is just about Serbs?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I presume that the document we looked at
12 previously, the 20 April order, will receive exhibit number 834; is that
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are all assisting Madam Registrar to find
15 the right numbers. Please proceed.
16 MR. TIEGER: Okay. And can 834 be placed before the witness. He
17 has it.
18 Q. Mr. Tupajic, do you have in front of you the document dated 20
19 April 1992, an order of the Sokolac municipality Crisis Staff to the
20 officials of the Sokolac public security station?
21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the date that I have on the document is 21st of
22 April, and in the first paragraph of this order a reference is made to
23 precisely the thing that you have mentioned, but the date is different.
24 Q. Okay.
25 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, I see that the date on the English
1 translation does not correspond -- or does it?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that the B/C/S gives 21st of April where
3 the English translation gives 20th of April. Could you please refer to
4 the number. That's 0102311, 21st of April.
5 MR. TIEGER: And the confusion may arise from the fact that in the
6 original, or the copy of the original, it appears the order was dated 21
7 April in response following the session of the Crisis Staff on 20 April,
8 but we are looking at the same document.
9 Q. Is that an order to the public security station to undertake steps
10 in connection with the theft of military equipment from Faletici, and in
11 item IV, to immediately submit a report on its execution of the
12 instructions back to the Crisis Staff?
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wonder why we keep asking the witness
14 these things. The witness is, in effect, being just asked to confirm that
15 he can read, with respect, because if he's just confirming every time the
16 exact words that are in the documents, then we're not really making
17 progress with any questions and answers.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I take this to be an incentive by
19 Mr. Stewart to speed up and see whether, by reading, we can achieve the
20 same result as by asking it to the witness.
21 MR. TIEGER: Well, I could ask for a simpler confirmation, Your
22 Honour, but I'm still mindful of the encouragement long ago to make the
23 public aware of precisely what we're talking about and trying to balance
24 those considerations. If I've overstepped, I will go through the
25 documents more expeditiously.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's see whether we can find the right
2 balance. And Mr. Stewart will not oppose.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. Mr. Tupajic, is that simply an order to the public security
5 station to undertake certain steps and then submit a report back to the
6 Crisis Staff?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, earlier, Mr. Tupajic, we looked at reports to the republic
9 level and interaction with the republic level. Who were the individuals
10 in your municipality who maintained closest and most regular contact with
11 the republican leadership of the SDS or Republika Srpska?
12 A. It was certainly the man who had most contacts with the SDS
13 leadership and the leadership of Republika Srpska. He was Milovan
14 Bjelovac, and then Mr. Marko Simic who was a deputy and the first
15 president of the municipality of Sokolac. Members of the Crisis Staff had
16 occasional contacts, but mostly with the government of the Serbian
17 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. We contacted them when we had to
18 resolve the issues that I have already spoken about and also a number of
19 other issues.
20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I -- may I make the familiar
21 request - it's the first time with this witness - to know first of all
22 whether he understands English.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Do you speak or understand English, Mr. Tupajic?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't either speak or understand
25 English. I only know a few words that I learnt while I still worked at
1 the ball bearings factory of Sokolac and what I picked up from movies,
2 that is all.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether you're going to use any
4 movie language or --
5 MR. STEWART: They sometimes use mine, Your Honour. But Your
6 Honour, may I invite the witness just briefly to -- or would Your Honour
7 invite him to take off his headphones.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you to take your headphones off,
9 Mr. Tupajic. Mr. Stewart.
10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it was in relation to the question
11 Mr. Tieger asked that's just disappearing off the screen at the top, line
12 8. Earlier we looked at reports at the republic level, interaction with
13 the republic level. Who were the individuals in your municipality who
14 maintained closest and most regular contact with the republican
15 leadership, and so on.
16 Now, Your Honour, there are lots of ways of asking a leading
17 question, but that is one of them. First of all, the introduction to the
18 question is unnecessary and not appropriate, and then the question itself
19 contains, of course, a heavily in-built assumption that somebody was
20 having close and regular contact, which is a very different thing from the
21 reports that are mentioned in the introductory comments to the question.
22 So we do suggest that in this area, and everybody knows that this is a key
23 area in relation to this witness, nobody can fail to realise that, that it
24 is extremely important that these in-built assumptions do not form part of
25 the important questions.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I think splitting up that question,
2 especially where you left it open, republican leadership of SDS or
3 Republika Srpska, gives a lot of vagueness in the question which could be
4 addressed perhaps in a more precise way.
5 MR. TIEGER: I'll keep asking questions about this area, Your
6 Honour. I don't think there will be too many questions about it and I'll
7 certainly make every effort to make them in a way that doesn't provoke --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart invites you to make them less
9 leading in this respect and --
10 MR. TIEGER: That's not --
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- there's some merit in --
12 MR. TIEGER: And the fact that I don't respond to Mr. Stewart's
13 comment I hope is not taken as agreement with his assessment of that, but
14 I think it's more efficient just to move forward.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. We all now have 25 minutes to
16 think that over. We will adjourn until five minutes to eleven.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Tupajic, let me focus my attention for the moment on
22 communications within the SDS. First of all, did the Sokolac SDS receive
23 orders and directives and guidelines from the Main Board of the SDS in
24 1991 and early 1992?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. STEWART: Even that question is so much better, with respect,
2 and easily presented in neutral form. Communications, and then leave it
3 to the witness, please, to indicate what was received. As a marker, Your
4 Honour, for all this line of questioning, that is the Defence's
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger --
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: After having consulted the whole of the Bench,
9 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed the way you put the last question, and for the
10 ones to come as well.
11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Tupajic, how were those communications sent to Sokolac? In
13 what form; in writing, orally, both, or any other means of communicating?
14 A. All the important decisions of the Main Board of the Serbian
15 Democratic Party that needed to be implemented on the ground, that is in
16 the municipality of Sokolac and other municipalities, were sent to the
17 Municipal Board of the Serbian Democratic Party. Most of these decisions
18 were written, but it was not the case infrequently that the president of
19 the Municipal Board informed us orally of the decisions of the activities
20 that needed to be carried out in our locality. Besides, the president of
21 the Municipal Board had contacts with the republican level of the party
22 between sessions, and we would have, accordingly, briefings between
23 sessions as well.
24 Q. And who was the president of the SDS Municipal Board?
25 A. The first president officially elected was Mr. Mirko Malovic, who
1 later, in the beginning of 1992, left the former Yugoslavia and went to
2 the United States. Mr. Bjelica, who had been his deputy, took over and
3 continued to be president of the Municipal Board until two years ago when
4 he was let go, replaced from that post by a decision of the high
5 commission, I believe.
6 Q. Can we turn to the next exhibit, please. That's an intercept
7 dated 27 December 1991.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P835, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 [Audiotape played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Radovan Karadzic: Well, I'm fine,
13 what have you been doing?
14 Bjelica: Well, nothing.
15 Karadzic: Tell me -- well they've started -- as we unexpectedly
16 procured quite a large amount of oil for our claimants here, we have one
17 variant with two cisterns at Joja's. Thus do you have -- where could you
18 -- do you need them?
19 Bjelica: Well, we do. We don't have oil. Jugopetrol will give
20 us petrol tomorrow, according to your recommendation, petrol from
21 Jugopetrol, but we don't have oil.
22 Radovan Karadzic: Through whom does it go? Through Krajisnik?
23 Bjelica: No, not through Krajisnik. As you instructed us, the
24 price plus three dinars for the party, of course.
25 Radovan Karadzic: I see. Good.
1 Bjelica: The invoice goes through Krajisnik.
2 Radovan Karadzic: Good.
3 Bjelica: And we registered this as public enterprise
4 Romanija-petrol and Pale will probably do the same now.
5 Radovan Karadzic: Good. But two cisterns of oil are on the road
6 and Joja will receive them and he can forward them where needed. And what
7 is the price in general?
8 Bjelica: Well, I don't know. Some men purchased it at about 45
9 dinars here, at Romanija.
10 Radovan Karadzic: Well, no, this is more expensive. It can't --
11 where did you get it at that price? There is no way you can procure it
12 for that much.
13 Bjelica: Well, at Jugopetrol, I guess.
14 Radovan Karadzic: Oh, I see, but men cannot purchase -- this is
15 more expensive. This comes from Kotor.
16 Bjelica: How much is it, Doctor?
17 Radovan Karadzic: This is -- this can be deposited to the
18 account. They asked 58. Then I asked if they can reduce it to 56, and
19 they wanted to give three dinars to the party. That is why you should
20 contact Joja. Can you find Joja?
21 Bjelica: Well, I am going to look for him right now.
22 Radovan Karadzic: So you can arrange this with him, see to it
23 that they find the customer. These two.
24 Bjelica: Only we don't have the money today. This took us by
1 Radovan Karadzic: Well, someone else can pay. Take care of
2 that. You must always have money, because of these things -- let
3 companies pay and then you will pay them back or something like that.
4 Bjelica: Okay.
5 Radovan Karadzic: Or try with a private entrepreneur, try to find
6 a way, but it is important to preserve this channel because --
7 Bjelica: We must preserve it.
8 Radovan Karadzic: Yes. It is a bit more expensive down there but
9 we need Kotor very much.
10 Bjelica: There are no problems down there because their company
11 also supports itself. That is, they support someone else down there.
12 Bjelica: Well, but it came a little late. Had it been earlier we
13 would have provided money. Could that wait only a couple of days, until
15 Radovan Karadzic: Well, go call Joja.
16 Bjelica: We'll provide the money, no doubt about it.
17 Radovan Karadzic: Good. So you can -- the contract.
18 Bjelica: Ten, ten thirty, and also these accountants, some are
19 away on a business trip, some are not available. We cannot manage it all
20 at once, but we shall provide the money.
21 Radovan Karadzic: Good, good, here. Go. This guy, what's his
22 name -- do you know Joja's phone numbers?
23 Bjelica: Tintor, you mean?
24 Radovan Karadzic: Yes.
25 Bjelica: I do, let me check it again.
1 Radovan Karadzic: 439-777 and 439-555. That is the fax, I
2 suppose, and his secretary will know where exactly you are and she'll
3 contact you urgently. Contact him!
4 Bjelica: Would you be able to come to Sokolac for awhile
6 Radovan Karadzic: I'm not sure. Dzimi Mudi is coming here, and I
7 have many other commitments. That's why I'm not sure about it.
8 Bjelica: We are doing the work. Everything is normal.
9 Radovan Karadzic: Excellent. I hear the municipality is
10 functioning well now. Is this Tupajic person good?
11 Bjelica: We are working well. Special assignments. We do that
12 as well.
13 Radovan Karadzic: Is Tupajic good?
14 Bjelica: Good indeed.
15 Radovan Karadzic: Don't -- Marko, treat him well. Don't --
16 Bjelica: We won't. As a matter of fact, we've talked to him this
17 morning. It won't be any problem.
18 Radovan Karadzic: Because it isn't -- it isn't -- it is a normal
19 thing in a democracy that a person does not function well and when someone
20 better comes in sight, although the first one was good, someone better
21 comes and he gets his place and the first one goes with all honours. No
22 more smear campaigns against individuals, et cetera, but only --
23 Bjelica: We did not. As God is my witness, we followed your
24 advice without causing a commotion, without making much noise.
25 Radovan Karadzic: -- without noise, we have to think of
1 reputations of people and take care that they do not feel humiliated
2 because they leave one post.
3 Bjelica: Well, Doctor, we have one more activity for this
4 television channel, the Belgrade channel. They sent us an offer from
5 Belgrade, this Simovic person from the Belgrade television is coming.
6 Radovan Karadzic: Go, get it done so that we in Sarajevo can
7 watch it as well.
8 Bjelica: The offer is 26.5 deutschemark -- 26.5 thousand, and we
9 will have a meeting today with this private enterprise, with directors of
10 some private enterprises.
11 Radovan Karadzic: Good.
12 Bjelica: To donate something as sponsors and we'll provide -- the
13 party will provide some 500 thousand to 1 million dinars with the help of
14 its men in companies. Thus our goal is to amplify the channel, that is
15 the radio, senders of Romanija radio from 2 kw to 10 kilowatts. Even
16 Doboj can listen to it.
17 Radovan Karadzic: Good, excellent.
18 Bjelica: We are going to do it now. We have already agreed to
19 make some changes, to broadcast the second Belgrade satellite programme.
20 Radovan Karadzic: I see.
21 Bjelica: We'll also do it here now.
22 Radovan Karadzic: So, and what happens then? You take that
23 antenna and then you transmit it via -- you broadcast it, and who will be
24 able to watch it?
25 Bjelica: Well, they guarantee this for three or four of our
1 municipalities here, and maybe, they say, even more.
2 Radovan Karadzic: Good. Do not hesitate to pay more. We can pay
3 more so we can also cover Sarajevo, or I don't know. Can that signal
4 reach Sarajevo? Can it?
5 Bjelica: I don't know.
6 Radovan Karadzic: I mean, we can find an extra 20 to 30 thousand
7 if needed, so that Sarajevo can also watch. If they have some elevation
8 point that can also -- Sarajevo, it is worth investing some money.
9 Bjelica: Okay, then we'll check it. I'll contact -- I'll forward
10 this to Tupajic and we'll see. Because we won't be able to finance it
11 alone, Doctor.
12 Radovan Karadzic: Okay. We'll find -- we'll make Dukic pay as
13 well, then Ostojic will pay as well.
14 Bjelica: Okay.
15 Radovan Karadzic: Ostojic's company will pay.
16 Bjelica: That is why we want to go for it now.
17 Radovan Karadzic: That Romanija should pay.
18 Bjelica: Okay. That's settled. Then you should only need to
19 press Ostojic a little.
20 Radovan Karadzic: I'm going to -- well, as soon as he's back.
21 He's not here. He wants to develop Sokolac for sure. No doubt about it.
22 Bjelica: Well, we -- we do almost everything for him.
23 Radovan Karadzic: He wants to develop -- he won't mind spending
24 money on Sokolac.
25 Bjelica: We were not in the way, no. We did everything according
1 to the agreement.
2 Radovan Karadzic: Of course, we need to. It is not important to
3 us whether one firm is socially owned or private. A private enterprise
4 that feeds one municipality is better than a socially owned enterprise
5 that needs to be subsidised. As far as that is concerned, we do not have
6 to do like communists.
7 Bjelica: All in all, Doctor, we'll consider this once again,
8 because they offered us two or three variants.
9 Radovan Karadzic: Take the best variant. It doesn't matter if
10 it's the most expensive one. If it can get to Sarajevo, Ilijas, and these
11 other places, Olovo. Search the hill which can -- search the hill which
12 is the best and let's do it.
13 Bjelica: Okay. I'll do it right away.
14 Radovan Karadzic: Because it is much cheaper than to do it later
15 once again. We built roads throughout Yugoslavia using the money we had.
16 Had we taken good foreign loans and made decent roads, the country would
17 not have fallen apart.
18 Bjelica: Exactly.
19 Karadzic: To hell, the country would have not fallen apart.
20 Okay, go look for Joja right now.
21 Bjelica: Okay, I'm going to look for him.
22 Radovan Karadzic: Do it. What has the priest been doing?
23 Bjelica: Well, he's up there. He's getting involved in the
24 matters related to education and such.
25 Radovan Karadzic: Good. You should listen to him. He has sort
1 of strict views but --
2 Bjelica: Well, I'll say, he should also --
3 Radovan Karadzic: Well, it should be more reasonable. He is too
4 strict. He behaves more as if he were a Catholic priest.
5 Bjelica: Listen, let me tell you this: Those around him in that
6 board are also --
7 Radovan Karadzic: Yes, I agree that somebody must take care of
8 morale but --
9 Bjelica: Generally, we do take care of it but we might -- we'll
10 discuss this issue some other time.
11 Radovan Karadzic: Okay, but you should invite him to all --
12 Bjelica: Will do.
13 Radovan Karadzic: Invite him to all and respect him. Put him in
14 the front row. Priests and teachers must be in the front row.
15 Bjelica: -- all.
16 Radovan Karadzic: Well, that's it.
17 Bjelica: Front row.
18 Radovan Karadzic: Okay. Then call him right now.
19 Bjelica: Okay.
20 Radovan Karadzic: Good-bye."
21 MR. TIEGER:
22 Q. First of all, Mr. Tupajic, although I recognise that names were
23 mentioned, did you recognise the voices of the participants in that
25 A. Yes. This is a conversation between Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Milovan
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. What did you understand Mr. Bjelica's relationship with
3 Dr. Karadzic to be in 1991 and 1992?
4 A. Well, this conversation too confirms that they had full, direct
5 contact, and they contacted each other on many issues. I am personally
6 surprised that they had these contacts regarding the turnover and sale of
7 oil. I don't think Karadzic should have gotten involved in that. That
8 should have been left to some other people.
9 Q. And before we leave this conversation, let me just ask you about a
10 couple of persons mentioned during the course of the conversation. First
11 of all, the name Joja is mentioned several times. Who is that, if you
13 A. I think this is a reference to Jovan Tintor, who played an active
14 part at the stage of establishment of the Serbian Democratic Party.
15 Before the war, he had a private company, and he must have financed the
16 establishment of the Serbian Democratic Party at least in part since it
17 had no owned funds. He was native of Vogosca, and I believe he was a
18 member of the Crisis Staff as well, and at some point during the war he
19 was appointed advisor to the president of the republic, and that was
20 Dr. Karadzic.
21 Q. Later on, there is mention of finding Dukic to pay for it, and
22 Ostojic will also pay. Do you know who is referred to in those
24 A. I think it's Mr. Rajko Dukic, whom we mentioned before; and
25 Mr. Ranko Ostojic, who in 1991, according to the programme of
1 privatisation that was being implemented then, repurchased the state
2 equity capital in our largest enterprise, Romanija Sokolac, which was the
3 prime -- primary vehicle of development in our municipality. It was the
4 most important enterprise. And at another time, he was deputy Prime
6 Q. And the reference at the beginning of the conversation to
7 Jugopetrol and the invoice going through Krajisnik, do you know what that
8 is a reference to?
9 A. I don't know about this particular purchase they are discussing
10 here. They mention Mr. Krajisnik. I don't know whether it was
11 Mr. Krajisnik or his brother Mirko had an enterprise, a company together,
12 or it was only one or the other, but it says in this conversation that
13 invoices should be sent to companies, and this name Krajisnik is
14 mentioned. I don't know whether it was the two brothers together or only
15 one of them.
16 Q. After the establishment of RS and the establishment of
17 governmental authorities in 1992, were communications to the Sokolac
18 authorities also conducted through written means and through -- and
19 orally, as they had been during -- between the Main Board and the SDS?
20 A. I think that especially after the war began in Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina there were few sessions of the Municipal Board. I don't know
22 about the Main Board. And information was exchanged mainly through
23 personal contacts of the president of the Municipal Board with
24 Mr. Karadzic. Such communication between them --
25 MR. STEWART: The way the question comes across in English, the
1 last few words, with "between," and then we've got six words, if that is
2 the correct English interpretation, then I wouldn't have thought it was
3 exactly what counsel had in mind as the question.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
5 MR. TIEGER: I can clarify the question. I think the witness is
6 directing his attention to the issue of communications but let me just
7 clarify that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. Mr. Tupajic, just to make sure that the Court fully understands
11 your responses, you had earlier indicated the manner in which
12 communications took place between the Main Board and the Sokolac SDS and
13 indicated that included both written communications and oral
14 communications. My question was with the establishment of RS political
15 authorities, how were communications between the RS leadership and the
16 Sokolac authorities conducted? Was it written? Was it oral? Was it
18 A. I think communications were combined. How many written exchanges
19 of information there were and how many were oral I don't know because I
20 don't have an itemised list of documents but I know both means of
21 communication were involved.
22 Q. And who were the conduits for oral information conveyed from the
23 RS leadership to Sokolac?
24 A. Oral communications came mainly through Mr. Bjelica and late
25 Mr. Marko Simic who was deputy to the National Assembly of Republika
1 Srpska from Sokolac.
2 Q. Just returning quickly to the telephone conversation we just
3 listened to, there's a reference by Dr. Karadzic to looking after or
4 taking care of Marko. Do you know who that was a reference to?
5 A. Well, you see, in principle it is not pleasant to talk about
6 people who are no longer with us, but for the sake of truth I will have to
7 say before this Court that quite accidentally I was elected president of
8 the municipality after late Marko Simic had to resign. The information
9 that was available to me then indicated that some sort of embezzlement was
10 involved and that he was forced at the time by Mirko Malovic and Milovan
11 Bjelica to resign so that additional problems could be avoided. But not
12 everybody in the party knew the real reasons for his resignation, and
13 that's why Mr. Karadzic is saying that regardless of the fact that this
14 happened, it should not be made public, he should not be rejected. But by
15 this he reduced the credibility of the party, he damaged the credibility
16 of the party, at least among those of us who knew about the reasons for
17 his resignation.
18 Q. Mr. Tupajic, can I ask you to look at the next exhibit in order.
19 That's ET 0115-1586.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P836 [Realtime transcript
21 read in error "P386"], Your Honour.
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. Mr. Tupajic, this exhibit is the minutes of a meeting of the
24 Crisis Staff of the Sokolac municipality held on 15 May, 1992.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Before you continue, Mr. Tieger, on the transcript
1 the number of the exhibit appears as P386 where I think it should be 836
2 and that could cause confusion at a later stage. Please proceed.
3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Can I ask you to direct -- look you -- can I ask you to look at
5 the second paragraph of the minutes following the paragraph at which the
6 attendees of the meeting are indicated, and it's the paragraph that
7 begins, "Before starting with the agenda..." There is a reference there
8 to the ratification by the Municipal Board of the mandate of the members
9 of the Crisis Staff with specific persons mentioned and further references
10 -- further reference to the ratification later on in the paragraph, and
11 then the next paragraph reflects the formation of a personnel commission
12 by the Municipal Board of the SDS.
13 Can you tell us to what extent, if any, those references reflect
14 the power of the Municipal Board in Sokolac during that time, and in
15 particular the president of the Municipal Board?
16 A. All the issues pertaining to the staffing policy were in the held
17 [as interpreted] of the Municipal Board or its narrow leadership. In the
18 meantime, as we can see from this paragraph, there must have been a change
19 in the composition of the Crisis Staff of Sokolac municipality since there
20 had been a change in some of the positions and those in those positions
21 were members of the Crisis Staff. One can see clearly that the Municipal
22 Board gave its approval to issues at the meetings of the Crisis Staff. It
23 also had its committee on the personnel policy that was in charge of
24 proposing individuals who would occupy the most prominent positions in the
1 Q. We've looked at the establishment of the Crisis Staff in Sokolac
2 and some of the decisions it received and took. I'd like to ask you about
3 the establishment of one other body within Sokolac, and in that
4 connection, I'd ask you to be presented with the next exhibit, which is
5 actually item 18 on the list, the 10 April 1992 session of the Crisis
6 Staff, and that's 0115-1499.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P837.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. Mr. Tupajic, P837 is a record of the Sokolac Crisis Staff meeting
10 held on April 10, 1992. If I could ask you to turn your attention quickly
11 to item 6 of that meeting. There's a reference there to conducting talks
12 with SDK and to making an analysis of directing the monetary flows to the
13 Sokolac SDK. Can you tell us what that's a reference to and what steps if
14 any were taken in connection with the establishment of a Serbian SDK in
16 A. I don't have that document so I can't tell you exactly what
17 happened. I believe that the National Assembly of the Serbian Republic of
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina at one of its meetings adopted such a decision, a
19 decision to take out the monetary flows in the Serbian Republic of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina from the rest of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was decided in
21 that sense that the SDK branch that had existed in Sokolac even before the
22 war and that was closest to Pale and best equipped and had the best human
23 resources would be the main branch of the SDK.
24 At the Crisis Staff we discussed that in order to see how we would
25 honour this decision. From that discussion arose tasks for the president
1 of the board, Mr. Samardzija and the gentleman who was deputy director of
2 the SDK branch in Sokolac. The two of them were to talk to the director,
3 to look at the documentation, and to see where the decisions were being
4 implemented and whether the finances that had been previously paid into
5 the Bosnia and Herzegovina SDK were now being paid into the branch of the
6 SDK in Sokolac into the accounts of the Serbian Republic of
8 Q. With respect to money raised by municipalities through taxes or
9 otherwise, what percentage if any went to the republic and what percentage
10 stayed in the municipality?
11 A. As far as I can remember, this was 70 per cent of all the tax
12 money that went to the Ministry of Finances, or to the government, and the
13 remaining 30 per cent were allocated to the municipality. There was also
14 contribution for the health insurance and for the pension insurance, and I
15 believe that that same ratio that was established at the time is still in
17 Q. And that was done through the SDK?
18 A. Yes, although the SDK, as far as I'm familiar with the area,
19 played a dual role. It was in charge of the financial flows but also it
20 had the control of the payment of taxes. At the same time, the financial
21 flows went through the commercial banks as well.
22 Q. Mr. Tupajic, let me turn my attention to another subject now and
23 ask you this: Based on your position within the SDS, your contacts with
24 SDS officials and any other factors you may care to tell us about, can you
25 tell the Court who the most powerful persons first in the SDS were and
1 then in the RS, once it was formed, in order of the most powerful and
3 A. I believe that I will share with you the information that all the
4 citizens not only in Serbian Republic but of entire Bosnia-Herzegovina had
5 at the time. According to the hierarchy, it was Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Momcilo
6 Krajisnik, and the two of them had the most influence and authority which
7 singled them out. After them there was a significant gap and then some
8 other people who were more or less respected on account of their titles,
9 and here I'm referring to Mr. -- late Koljevic and Mrs. Plavsic, who were
10 university professors at the time. Maybe Mr. Buha as well, and that would
11 be that.
12 In the regions there were some influential people. I don't know
13 how big their influence was. I can't be a judge of that. If we're
14 talking about the level of the Serbian Republic and the leadership of the
15 SDS at the level of the Serbian Republic, I believe that the case was as I
16 have just described it.
17 Q. Okay. So it was the same as you described for both the SDS and
18 Republika Srpska in 1991 and 1992.
19 A. Yes. Mr. Karadzic was elected as the President of Republika
20 Srpska, and Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik as the president of the National
21 Assembly. The positions themselves reinforced their positions in the
22 party and enabled them to gain the authority that was necessary at the
23 time. Mr. Krajisnik was a member of the Main Board.
24 Q. Now, did you meet with Dr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik during 1992?
25 A. Yes. There were such meetings. Not many of them. I remember
1 several working meetings with Mr. Krajisnik during which I was present.
2 There were some more official meetings, there were also some chance
3 encounters when they came to the municipality. Since Sokolac is on the
4 road from Pale and Zvornik and further on to Banja Luka and also on the
5 road from Pale to Belgrade, Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik and other
6 officials of Republika Srpska passed the -- this way quite often. So I
7 must have had a number of such meetings which were rather informal. And
8 the only ones I remember are a few working meetings with Mr. Krajisnik.
9 Q. Can I turn your attention to the next exhibit in order, which is
10 number 19 on the list.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: It would be Exhibit P838, Your Honour.
13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Tupajic, P838 reflects an article from Tanjug of 17 May
15 regarding a meeting in Sokolac. 17 May 1992, I should say. Does that
16 reflect one of your meetings with Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Karadzic?
17 A. Yes. This was one of the meetings.
18 Q. And what occasioned that meeting?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Just to avoid whatever confusion, what would be the
20 ERN number from the translation?
21 MR. TIEGER: 00214159 through 60.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think we received that. There is one press
23 publication on our desk at the moment but that's Oslobodjenje. Yes. No.
24 Yes. Yes, we found it. I apologise Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I inquire? Your Honour commented
1 that you didn't think the Trial Chamber had received that exhibit. Did
2 the Trial Chamber receive all the other exhibits on the list that we've
3 been working from this morning?
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, not on the list, just the ones that will be
5 presented, and I invited the Prosecution to improve the logistics. And we
6 received it two minutes ago -- well, ten minutes ago, and we found it.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. Mr. Tupajic, how did that meeting come about?
10 A. At the initiative of the Association of Serbs from Belgrade who
11 hailed from the Romanija region, this meeting was called because they
12 wanted to hear straight from the horse's mouth, from the leadership of the
13 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, about the situation and what
14 was going on, also what the plans and intentions were. In all this, my
15 role was to coordinate the scheduling of the meeting, and later on I was
16 the host of the meeting.
17 In the document, you can see a reference being made to the main
18 figures that were present at the meeting and what the meeting was all
20 Q. Now, the article states that: "Mr. Krajisnik ... stressed that
21 the time is ripe for a demarcation of the areas between Serbs -- between
22 Croats, Serbs, and Muslims because ... a common state with them is no
23 longer possible, not because we do not want that but because that is what
24 they want. The Muslim leadership has imposed the war on us even though
25 the Serbs wanted a political solution..."
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Do you recall Mr. Krajisnik stressing that the time was ripe was
2 for a demarcation of the areas between the nations in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
3 between the Croats, Serbs, and Muslims?
4 A. I said that my role during the meeting was more the role of a --
5 of a host, and I cannot confirm that I heard Mr. Krajisnik saying those
6 words as the journalist alleges in this article, but I know that on many
7 occasions before this one and afterwards Mr. Krajisnik would often say
8 that it was better for us to live as good neighbours next to each other
9 because already in that century we had waged two wars, and if we continued
10 living together such wars could probably not be avoided.
11 I cannot confirm the quote in Tanjug's article because I was not
12 there all the time and I don't have a complete insight into what all the
13 speakers said at all times.
14 Q. Now, around that same period of time did you have a meeting or
15 another meeting involving General Mladic?
16 A. After this meeting in Sokolac, I don't know how many days later,
17 we were invited, us, the presidents of the municipality from Romanija,
18 Birac, and Polonija [phoen], to a meeting in Han Pijesak. When the army
19 of Republika Srpska was established on the 12th of May, pursuant to this
20 decision of the Assembly in Banja Luka and when Mr. Ratko Mladic was
21 appointed head of the Main Staff, we were invited to this meeting, which
22 was an official meeting, a protocol meeting, at which we met each other
23 officially. We had very little time at our disposal, but the essence of
24 the meeting was as -- was precisely that, for us to meet.
25 Q. Were other military officials there other than General Mladic?
1 A. I can't remember, but I believe that there is some of General
2 Mladic's assistants there. He had just established his Main Staff. I
3 can't be sure, but I believe that Mr. Tolimir and Mr. Gvero were also
4 there. I'm not sure. The establishing of the Main Staff was underway and
5 many of the officers joined the Main Staff only after this meeting.
6 Q. What did General Mladic say to the people assembled there?
7 A. First he introduced himself, although all of us were familiar with
8 his appointment. He called for cooperation on the part of the civilian
9 authorities. He counted on the logistical support to the families of the
10 soldiers. There was to be a large-scale mobilisation. There were a lot
11 of refugees. On behalf of the Main Staff and the army of the Serbian
12 republic, he promised that everything would be done to -- to preserve
13 every single foot of the Serbian land, as he put it. He said that he
14 would try his utmost to -- to stop the dragon, and by this he referred to
15 the late Mr. Izetbegovic, as far as I understood him. This is the essence
16 of what he said and what I can remember as I sit here today.
17 Q. You indicated that he said something about preserving every single
18 foot of Serbian land.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did he -- what -- what, as you understood it, was meant by
21 preserving Serbian land in that context?
22 A. Well, he didn't go into any details, but the way I understood it
23 was that all the areas where the Serbs resided at the time, that he would
24 do everything possible to keep them under the control of the army of the
25 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 Q. Were all the areas where Serbs resided at that time within the
2 control of the army of Serbia -- of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
4 A. No, they were not, as far as I know. I don't think so. This was
5 towards the end of May 1992.
6 Q. So the protection of every square foot of Serbian territory had
7 not yet happened but General Mladic indicated that it would happen; is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes. The entire area from Prnjavor to Bijeljina, where many Serbs
10 resided, was under the control of the HVO and the Muslim military forces,
11 and the issue of corridors is a special issue, and how to connect the
12 territories of Republika Srpska, which was of particular significance.
13 Q. Are you familiar with a concept that the territory of Republika
14 Srpska should consist of areas where the Serbs were a majority and also
15 areas where the Serbs would have been a majority but for the genocide of
16 World War II?
17 A. As far as I know, there was no written document to that effect.
18 In any case, this was an option that was being discussed even earlier. I
19 remember the exhumation of the mortal remains in Pribilovci, where people
20 had been buried during the Second World War. It was at that time that
21 there was more discussion of that concept than during the days we're
22 talking about now. There may have been such a concept in place but I
23 wouldn't be able to provide you with any more detail.
24 Q. Do you know from anything he said at that time or at any other
25 time whether General Mladic was familiar with that concept and whether he
1 endorsed it?
2 A. Well, I can remember a statement that -- that was carried by the
3 media in 1995 when Srebrenica had been taken, and the comment was the
4 Serbian army has again set foot onto the sacred Serbian land. There are
5 some speculations according to which the Serbs used to be a majority in
6 Srebrenica. I'm not an historian, I cannot interpret that statement. I
7 don't know whether that referred to some other areas as well. I can't be
8 a judge of that. I can't either confirm this or deny it for that matter.
9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the next exhibit to which I'd like to
10 turn is the record of the minutes of the Crisis Staff of May 15th. That's
11 not in the current bundle and I'm trying to locate it on the list. I
12 believe that's item 16, and it may already have been -- I'm sorry. That's
13 a previous exhibit already in evidence. It's P834. If that could be
14 presented to the witness if he no longer has it. Sorry, P836.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. Mr. Tupajic, again P836 reflects the meeting of the Crisis Staff
18 on April -- on May 15, 1992, and if I could ask you to turn your attention
19 to the last item of that meeting, item 16. It's a reference to Drago
20 Macar informing those present that the plans for disarming certain
21 villages were made. And can you tell us who Dragan Macar was and what
22 those plans were.
23 A. It is late Drago Macar already because he got killed a month after
24 this meeting, near Gorazde. He was head of the TO staff, or chief of
25 staff of the TO at the time when this meeting of the Crisis Staff took
2 As chief of staff of Territorial Defence, he took part in drawing
3 up the plans for disarmament which were part of the activities geared at
4 having the Muslim population declare their loyalty to the authorities.
5 But soon after this session, new assignments and new tasks were given
6 because the 21st Motorised Brigade was formed, and it took over all the
7 activities and all the assignments of the Territorial Defence Staff.
8 Q. Now, around that period of time did you conduct or participate in
9 discussions with Muslims in Sokolac about the possibility of relocating to
10 the predominantly Muslim municipality of Olovo?
11 A. There were no such talks in Sokolac municipality. I know that
12 such an initiative came from Dzevad Abazovic, president of Olovo
13 municipality, and president of the Serbian municipality of Olovo,
14 Mr. Zugic. It was in fact their joint initiative. They required a
15 meeting with me and we did meet indeed in the quarters of the local
16 commune of Knezina to discuss this issue.
17 Q. And did that meeting -- was that meeting successful at achieving
18 the discussed plan or did it result in no agreement?
19 A. It was the first meeting of its kind and therefore we did not
20 discuss the details. In principle, this joint initiative was acceptable
21 to me because all three of us believed at that time that all that was
22 going on throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina was going to be short-lived and
23 that it was better for all the ethnic communities to relocate temporarily
24 to avoid casualties if something happens. But Mr. Zugic told me that the
25 president Dzevad Abazovic, president of Olovo municipality, was replaced
1 soon after that meeting. I don't know to what extent the meeting was
2 responsible for his replacement, but there was no second meeting.
3 Q. At any point did you meet privately with Muslims to express any
4 views about the advisability of relocating or not relocating?
5 A. There was more than one individual contact, both official and
6 unofficial, such as when I went to visit my family in the country, because
7 in media reports we could see that some refugees had already left the
8 municipality of Sokolac fearing what might happen in the future in our
9 region. So there were contacts and talks about this.
10 Q. Did you express to the Muslims you met with any concerns for their
11 safety if they remained in Sokolac?
12 A. Well, you see, I was aware of the activities that were
13 forthcoming. I already described them a moment ago. They were required
14 to declare their loyalty to the new authorities in the process of getting
15 established, and the first expression of loyalty that was required of them
16 was to hand in their weapons. I told them that if something like that
17 happens, and it is very likely, they should hand in their weapons because
18 even if they wanted to, they would not be able to resist the forces of the
19 army of Republika Srpska that had already been established. In our
20 particular area, the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade was already active.
21 Q. Did you speak to them about your ability to protect them or not
22 protect them?
23 A. Until the 12th of May when the VRS was formed, there were
24 Territorial Defence Staffs, and we saw from some of these documents that
25 the TO staff could to some extent affect their work and conduct. However,
1 after the establishment of the VRS and after the 21st of May when the 2nd
2 Romanija Motorised Brigade was set up, the little influence we had on the
3 security of all citizens, including Muslims, was lost because it was now
4 in the purview of the state security bodies and the police as well as the
5 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade. So that I as president of the
6 municipality and at that time president of the Crisis Staff was unable to
7 ensure my own safety let alone somebody else's.
8 Q. And did you say that to the Muslims you were speaking to about
9 this issue, that you didn't feel you were able to protect them?
10 A. I did, very openly, because some of them came to see me at my work
11 in the municipal building, I ran into some others in the street, and I met
12 with some when I visited my parents in Knezina. When they saw me passing
13 by in my car, they came to my family house to talk to me. I always told
14 them the same thing: We should hope for the best. We should hope that
15 nothing would happen after all, but they should follow closely what's
16 going on and make their own decisions according to their own common sense,
17 and I told them clearly that I could not given them any protection.
18 Q. Protection from what? Did you tell them what you were afraid
19 would happen to them that you would not be able to protect them from?
20 A. Well, you see, at that time, we are talking about the month of
21 June, maybe late May, June, and later July, columns of Muslim refugees
22 mainly from the Drina valley area, Rogatica, and Visegrad, were passing
23 through Sokolac, and the Muslim citizens could see them with their own
24 eyes. The roads went through Knezina. Sokolac-Knezina-Olovo road, and
25 Sokolac-Kaljina road, Kaljina being the second largest municipality with a
1 majority population along with Knezina.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you to answer the question. The question
3 clearly was: Did you tell them what you were afraid would happen to them,
4 what you would not be able to protect them from? Then you gave a story
5 about what people could have seen, refugees coming in. Why were the
6 refugees, what would -- were you afraid of that would happen? Could you
7 please answer that question directly.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise, but I
9 had to give this brief introduction.
10 They had all the information. They could hear the media reports.
11 They knew that in Visegrad and Rogatica very ugly things were happening.
12 There were murders as well. I was afraid that similar things could start
13 happening in our municipality, and I was referring to that when I
14 expressed my misgivings.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Did you tell them that you feared that they might be
16 killed and that it might happen to them what they could hear in the media
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in those ugly times, anything
19 that was already going on in other municipalities could happen in ours as
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, please tell us what was going on. Was this
22 driving people out of their houses? Was this large-scale killing of
23 people? Please tell us what you saw on television as -- what they could
24 have seen on television. Just let's name it.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The federal television had daily
1 news bulletins in which they reported, and sometimes broadcast images as
2 well, of grave crimes perpetrated along the Drina valley, Podrinje. I
3 mean Zvornik when I say Podrinje. They had occasion to see many reports
4 about that, although in some cases they could not receive the images.
5 At the same time, thousands of refugees were fleeing Podrinje and
6 going to Olovo, passing through Sokolac. They were going to Olovo because
7 that was a municipality with a majority Muslim population.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Were they fleeing to escape what you told us was
9 shown or was told on television?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are now talking about the
11 municipalities along the Drina valley, Podrinje. Is that what we're
12 talking about now, Mr. President?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said they were fleeing and one could see
14 these refugees. I ask you whether you know what they were fleeing from.
15 Was that the kind of events you described as they were shown and reported
16 on television?
17 A. I have already confirmed that. We had information that killings
18 were happening, sometimes mass killings, and people were transported via
19 Sokolac in an organised way by buses, although there were some individual
20 crossings as well. These convoys were escorted by the police of the
21 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I make one observation. Perhaps
25 it's in return for Mr. Hannis's helpful suggestion to Mr. Krajisnik
1 yesterday as to what questions might be asked. Might I suggest that some
2 clarification of the phrase "federal television" at line 16 on page 58
3 might be appropriate.
4 JUDGE ORIE: When you are talking about "federal television," what
5 did you have in mind?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant the television of Sarajevo.
7 At the time, it was the television of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Maybe it
8 was a slip of the tongue. We had BH television broadcasting from
9 Sarajevo, we had another channel broadcasting from Pale, and a third one
10 broadcasting from Banja Luka.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The ugly events that you described that were
12 shown on television, did that correspond with the impression you gained by
13 -- if any, by any other information that you received?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my earlier interviews, I also
15 mentioned that in my view all the media of Bosnia and Herzegovina at the
16 time, especially those controlled by Muslim, Serbian, and other
17 authorities, inflicted great damage with their biased reporting. But at
18 that time there were other sources as well, and with all this information
19 combined, you could learn clearly that really ugly things were going on in
20 those municipalities, including the mass expulsion, mass movements of
21 population out of this region.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
23 Judge Hanoteau has a question for you.
24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Witness, I wanted to ask you what
25 you meant. You talked about the 22nd of May, 1992, and you said that that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 date -- on that date the 2nd Motorised Romanija Brigade was on your
2 territory; is that right?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 21st May is the date when this
4 brigade was established. From that day on, it was officially active in
5 the territory of Sokolac.
6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I understand. And you also said
7 when you mentioned that date that you no longer had really a real
8 authority as the president of the Crisis Staff and that you could no
9 longer guarantee safety to anybody. Could you please explain.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no problem explaining that.
11 I had absolutely no tools to protect anyone. I didn't have any authority
12 to order anything to the army or to their security branch. I had no
13 authority to issue orders to members of the state security. I had no
14 powers to give any orders to the public security station or, in other
15 words, the police. So I and my associates had no --
16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I understood. But please tell
17 us, what is the difference between the situation as it existed before the
18 21st of May -- it seems what you're saying to us that up to the 21st of
19 May you had some powers. Therefore, you also had some powers over the
20 police, you were able to give instructions in order to ensure the
21 protection of your citizens. And then you said that on the 21st of May
22 you now no longer have any powers. So what were the powers that you had
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As members of the Crisis Staff, and
25 I personally as its president, demanded before and after the 21st of May
1 that the police should do its job to protect public law and order, to
2 protect property and people. General speaking, the police was responsible
3 to the chief of the public security centre and all the other chiefs were
4 answerable to the minister. They could simply reject any order, although
5 I always tried to avoid issuing official orders. I always tried, being
6 fully aware of my powers and their limitations, I always tried to come to
7 some sort of agreement and to have a good cooperation with them, to make
8 the situation better and more acceptable.
9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I?
10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I haven't finished.
11 You are not answering my question, Witness. Do you think that
12 before the creation of that motorised brigade you as the president of the
13 Crisis Staff had powers? You were able to ensure public safety, law and
14 order, and you were able also to protect your citizens; is this what
15 you're telling us?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In the Crisis Staff and before
17 in peacetime, the president of the municipality had certain powers over
18 the TO staff. When the army was established, the TO ceased to exist. All
19 the powers that earlier belonged to TO staffs were taken over by the
20 relevant brigade that was then present in our zone of responsibility.
21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] You had no powers over those
22 military authorities; is that correct?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not, no.
24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And if we talk about the time
25 you've indicated to us, we're talking about that period prior to, let's
1 say, mid-May 1992, were you able to see, to notice that your citizens were
2 now endangered, and did you think that you had to protect them from some
3 kind of danger?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, there were potential
5 dangers. I don't have to tell you that ever since the war in Croatia the
6 people in Bosnia and Herzegovina lived in constant fear. Hundreds and
7 thousands of refugees flowed into Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 In mid-May, there were 4.000 Serb refugees in our area. All this
9 only increased the atmosphere of fear and uncertainty. There were also
10 individual provocations. Serb refugees were organising these
11 provocations, targeting the Muslims who had remained there, and we were
12 trying to strike a delicate balance in this situation. And I believe that
13 to a certain extent we in the Crisis Staff did a pretty good job in that
14 sense, and there were no major incidents.
15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] However, you are stating that
16 some provocations took place from those Serb refugees. Did you see any
17 incidents? Did -- were you a witness? Did you notice, did you see
18 something that made you believe that measures had to be taken to ensure
19 the safety of your citizens? Did you see people beat up, kill, mistreat
20 somebody? Did you see something very clearly which was at the basis of
21 your worry?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no killings, but there
23 were other provocations involving harassment, for instance, and I was
24 aware of such incidents.
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Where did it happen? What
1 happened exactly?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will give you an example that I
3 think is typical. In our largest wood processing industrial facility,
4 Romanija, it took place. You saw from the minutes of the Crisis Staff, we
5 always tried to keep the output at the maximum possible level. There were
6 groups of Serb workers that were harassing Muslim workers, trying to
7 prevent them to come to work, and we tried to eliminate such incidents, to
8 put them under control. This was not the only thing. There were other
9 things of that kind.
10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Looking at the clock, and I would have two related
12 questions, Mr. Tieger.
13 My first question is you explained that matters changed when the
14 2nd Motorised Brigade arrived. Do I have to understand this, that it was
15 the presence of the army that caused matters to become beyond your
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, the 2nd Romanija
18 Brigade did not come from anywhere. It was made up from local conscripts
19 of Sokolac, Han Pijesak, and the surrounding area. So most members of the
20 brigade were locals.
21 What was the second part of your question?
22 JUDGE ORIE: My question was whether I understood you well that
23 matters changed, that matters went beyond your control once this brigade
24 had become operational on the 21st of May, if I did understand you well.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely. Precisely. They had
1 absolute control, and I had no insight in what this brigade was doing
2 together with its command. I told you about the activities that started
3 at the time of the Crisis Staff, such as disarmament of Muslims and
4 expressions of loyalty by Muslim citizens, and all that was taken over by
5 the brigade. We were not informed what they were doing.
6 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber has heard some evidence that in some
7 municipalities that the activities of Crisis Staffs and military units
8 present on the territory of such municipalities coordinated quite well.
9 Did this not happen in Sokolac?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I don't know if
11 your question implied paramilitary units as well by any chance, but in
12 Sokolac most of the territory was under the control of the 2nd Motorised
13 Brigade. And you will see from the documents that there were many
14 disagreements in the relationship between the civilian authorities and the
15 command of the brigade, even on the issue of minimum required supplies,
16 proper care that needed to be taken of families, and the need to keep
17 production at a certain level. There were many disagreements and many
18 misunderstandings between the two.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One more question by Judge Hanoteau and then
20 we'll have a break.
21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Sir, you're being very patient.
22 I have so many questions to ask you, but I would nevertheless like to ask
23 you one more question.
24 You seem to say that after this 2nd Brigade was established -- or,
25 rather, that this brigade was created right there and then, it was not a
1 brigade that existed already, it was a newly formed brigade - this is what
2 I thought I heard you say - and you seem to be doubting their efficiency.
3 I was under the impression -- I may have misunderstood you, but I was
4 under the impression that you are doubting the professionalism of this 2nd
5 Brigade, that members of this brigade were not perhaps real soldiers. Am
6 I mistaken, sir?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Honourable Judge, it's
8 difficult for me to say, but I think this time you did not understand me
9 very well. I am the kind of man who has great respect for every
10 profession, and everything would have been much better if everybody did
11 their job well.
12 I suppose that the orders for the establishment of this brigade
13 came from the Main Staff of the VRS. This brigade had its superior
14 command, and all the commands were answerable to the Ministry of the
15 Defence. Our job was to help the local job of the Ministry of Defence
16 with the reinforcement of units with our records and our resources. And
17 our greatest obligation in that respect was to take care of the families
18 of these people, because most of them were refugees with no houses, no
19 apartments, and with no resources to take care of their families. And I
20 as president of the Crisis Staff concentrated on organising production and
21 finding jobs for everyone, to ensure the appropriate output in order to be
22 able to use the proceeds to buy whatever is necessary for these families
23 and all the rest of the population.
24 Of course I personally had certain objections to the conduct of
25 certain members of the 2nd Romanija Brigade, and you can see that in some
1 of these documents, but I never doubted their qualification, because
2 everybody from the Main Staff moved to the command of that 2nd Romanija
4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, but you just
5 said that you doubted the behaviour of some soldiers, some people. Maybe
6 not all of them.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I had considerable
9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Tell us which ones.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I objected to many of their
11 actions. We can -- we can discuss that. I am not loath to open the
12 subject, but I cannot tell you in one sentence.
13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What kind of behaviour did you
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, in my opinion,
16 and I underline that I had no official information about anything, there
17 was what I considered completely unlawful arrest of a certain number of
18 civilians who were kept in detention without any legal grounds or charges,
19 and that is one thing to which I objected considerably.
20 Another thing: They did not keep us informed of the activities
21 they are carrying out on the territory of the municipality, so we were
22 completely in the dark, especially when this whole process began of
23 expressing loyalty, of handing in weapons. They carried all that out
24 using their own methods, of which we knew nothing, and all this resulted
25 in incidents and, later, clashes in certain villages.
1 Third, they constantly asked for greater mobilisation and greater
2 reinforcement at the expense of proper functioning of our civilian
3 institutions; the health centre, schools, et cetera. And this was a
4 source of constant conflict between me and members of the command. And
5 there are certain other things that you can see from these documents and
6 from my own agenda.
7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Those civilians who got arrested,
8 who were illegally arrested, what was their ethnicity? Were they Muslims?
9 Were they -- what were they?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Muslims.
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So -- and this is really my very
12 last question: Is it for all of those reasons that you did not trust that
13 brigade? Is this why you did not think that they could ensure the safety
14 of the citizens, of your citizens?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I did not trust them on this
16 issue, because that's obviously how they acted on the ground.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break until 1.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, when I say you may proceed, I really mean
21 that you may proceed.
22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Tupajic, you spoke of thousands of Muslims passing through
24 Sokolac during that period en route to Olovo and that they were passing
25 through in an organised fashion. Were those convoys of trucks and buses
1 containing Muslims?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did the Sokolac authorities assist in escorting those convoys
4 through the territory of Sokolac?
5 A. As far as I know, to the extent that I was informed, members of
6 the police station in Sokolac would join the escort of the convoys when
7 they entered our territory and would continue to accompany them till the
8 convoys headed for Olovo were taken over by forces or authorities from the
9 territory then controlled by the BH army or by the Muslim authorities.
10 As for convoys headed for Kaljina, Kaljina locality was the place
11 where they would stop and then move to different buses that continued
12 towards Olovo.
13 MR. TIEGER: Can we look at the next exhibit, please, and have it
14 marked accordingly. That's ET 0124-6752, 15 May order from Branko Djeric.
15 I believe that's previously in evidence.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P839.
17 MR. TIEGER: It's number 7 on the list, for everyone's benefit.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, number 7 on the list received
19 already 832 if I'm well -- or am I wrong?
20 THE REGISTRAR: It's 9.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I made a mistake. I apologise.
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. Mr. Tupajic, P839 is an order by the president of the government,
24 Dr. Branko Djeric, that the Sokolac Crisis Staff is obligated to provide
25 three trucks including tarpaulins that are to be used for the transport of
1 prisoners from Pale to Visoko via Ilijas, and the order is effective
2 immediately. It's dated 15 May 1992.
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I just mention this is a document I
4 have on my computer as well, supplied previously, but I've just noticed
5 that it's different, the English translation. I don't say one is better
6 than the other or anything like that, but I'm just inquiring because --
7 well, both appear to be some sort of official translation but they are
8 different. I don't know whether Mr. Tieger can help. I notice --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I can't see -- I see the canvas cover,
10 which is the tarpaulin, but apart from that the purpose does not appear
11 apparently on this document where you said something very specific that
12 are to be used for. I don't see anything of this kind.
13 MR. TIEGER: In the English translation you're indicating, Your
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me now read: "Crisis Staff Sokolac has the
16 obligation to provide three tow-trucks (with canvas cover) and put them in
17 disposition of the Crisis Staff Pale --" and then date and time are
18 mentioned. They will be returned same day. Order is effective
20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, my concern is that there may be -- this
21 is numbered. What we're looking at now is numbered at the bottom 03/235.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. By the way, I see a totally different matter.
23 The document I received is accompanied by two originals, both of the 15th
24 of May, one with the handwritten number, the other one not with the
25 handwritten number and certainly the one, it seems that it might be that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the first one reflects what you said, Mr. Tieger, whereas the second one
2 seems to be more in line with the translation on top of it. At least --
3 MR. STEWART: Can I say what I have? It may help to sort it out.
4 The document, which is 01246753 in Serbian, appears to be the one
5 translated here into English, but the other document, 01246752, as far as
6 I can tell, and there are limitations to that, that appears to correspond
7 with the English translation that I referred to that I've got on my
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we have two originals not exactly the
10 same and one translation, and it seems you work from the translation of 52
11 where we have a translation of 53.
12 MR. TIEGER: Well, Your Honour, I have a translation of 52 and
13 that's the document from which I read. Clearly that's the document which
14 the Court should have and I apologise for that confusion.
15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's not as simple as that, is it? We
16 do have two in Serbian. We do have two --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try -- yes, of course we do, and that's the
18 reason why Mr. Tieger apologised and he's now going to tell us how he's
19 going to remedy this problem.
20 MR. TIEGER: The document --
21 JUDGE ORIE: If you would let me just be quite simple. If you
22 would work on the basis of 52, it's just an eight-line document. Please
23 read out and provide us with the translation as soon as it's there.
24 MR. TIEGER: Fine, Your Honour. I will do precisely that. And
25 just so it's -- apparently these things were ERN'd in a series. The
1 document to which I'm referring the witness and which I trust he has in
2 front of him is 01246752 and the translation from which I've read
3 corresponds is ET 0124-6752.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You may read from the translation. We'll have this.
5 Could we just have 52 put on the ELMO so that everyone can see what
6 document the witness has in front of him.
7 Mr. Usher, could you please put on the ELMO the original, the
8 B/C/S. The witness can see it on his screen. Take the page, B/C/S, I
9 take it is the -- yes. I take it it will be the second page. You don't
10 have to -- you don't have to take them apart. Just put the one on the
11 ELMO. B/C/S version, most likely second page of the three, and the
12 witness can -- could you please zoom in such that the witness can read it
13 from his monitor as well.
14 Yes. Unfortunately we have the wrong one. We have the wrong one.
15 Please, the other one, Mr. Usher. The other B/C/S. Yes, that's the one.
16 The second out of three. There we are.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
18 MR. TIEGER:
19 Q. Mr. Tupajic, was this order received in Sokolac and did the
20 Sokolac Crisis Staff respond to the order?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you received the order did you know who the prisoners who
23 were to be transported were?
24 A. Mr. Prosecutor, if you will allow me, I would like to resolve this
25 misunderstanding about the two originals. It seems to me that I now
1 remember what this is all about.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I first invite Mr. Tieger to read the English
3 translation so that we know exactly what it says.
4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Aside from the heading about
5 which I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. TIEGER: -- presume there is no issue: "1. The Sokolac
8 Crisis Staff is obligated to provide three trucks (including tarpaulins)
9 that are to be used for the transport of prisoners from Pale to Visoko via
11 "2. The order is effective immediately."
12 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that the witness has some additional
13 information. I don't know whether it's of any help. Of course, one of
14 the disturbing problems is that the number is also exactly the same. It's
15 in both, one time it's entered 03253 and the other also says 03253, which
16 of course raises an issue whether there are two orders, whether they're
17 the same, whether there's any difference.
18 MR. TIEGER: If I understood the witness correctly, Your Honour,
19 it seems he wanted to address his attention to precisely that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I did observe that the translation we
22 were supplied with actually gets the number wrong and says 235.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Oh. That's then an additional problem. Let's
25 MR. TIEGER:
1 Q. Mr. Tupajic, before we continue, it seemed that you wanted to
2 offer some additional information or clarification about these two
4 A. Precisely so, Mr. Prosecutor. I believe that the order that is on
5 the ELMO now was drafted after the request, and I believe that Samardzija
6 was in charge of that activity. After the first order that he had
7 received in which the use of tarpaulins was not specified, we made sure at
8 all times to protect our fleet of our companies. It was only when the
9 order was supplemented with the use of those vehicles then we were able to
10 implement the order.
11 You asked me about the prisoners, whether we ever learnt who the
12 prisoners were. Let me answer that.
13 Either on the same day or maybe one or two days later we did find
14 out, I don't know from where, that the prisoners had been first brought
15 from Bratunac to Pale and then they were supposed to be transported to
16 Visoko via Ilijas. On the road from Bratunac to Pale they passed through
17 Sokolac because Sokolac is on that road. I don't know whether we knew at
18 the time when they were passing or we only learnt who they were after the
19 order arrived. I don't know that, but I don't even think that it is of
20 any importance. I don't know whether I have been of any assistance with
22 Q. No. Thank you. That's -- I think that's helpful.
23 First of all, can you tell us the ethnicity of these prisoners?
24 A. Muslim, as far as I know.
25 Q. Approximately how many Muslim prisoners were involved?
1 A. At that time, the figure that was mentioned was 500. I didn't
2 have any document to that effect. Nobody was duty-bound to inform me
3 about the right figure. In any case, the figure mentioned was between 5
4 and 600.
5 Q. You mentioned earlier mass expulsion from Eastern Bosnia. Did you
6 understand this at the time to be part of the mass expulsions of Muslims
7 from Eastern Bosnia?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. TIEGER: Can the witness be presented with an exhibit I know
10 is in evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we do so, Mr. Tieger, as far as these
12 exhibits are concerned, the Chamber would like to receive, since the
13 witness explained about the two documents, there was a lot of -- the
14 Chamber would like to receive the 5 -- to translate simply, the 52
15 document with a translation and the 53 document with a right number on it
16 in the translation. So the 235 would be 253. So if we would -- we gave
17 number 839 to one of them not knowing yet what the problem was. We
18 reserve 840 for the other one, and then the next exhibit, although the one
19 you are dealing with now is already in evidence, but the next one would
20 then be 841.
21 So please, two documents, separate, full and correct translations.
22 Yes. Please proceed.
23 MR. TIEGER: And the document I have in mind, Your Honour, is the
24 strategic objectives.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Strategic objectives.
1 Would you assist Madam Registrar with the exhibit number of the
2 strategic objectives.
3 MR. TIEGER: Certainly, Your Honour. Just a moment.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If you could produce them in any other way at this
5 moment, then that would do as well, but if there's a text, that's the most
6 important thing for the time being.
7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, here is a B/C/S copy and English
8 translation. I don't know if anybody needs the English translation at
9 this point but --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please provide the B/C/S
11 copy to the -- or is it that we receive -- B/C/S for the witness, English
12 on the ELMO, please.
13 MR. TIEGER: The exhibit number is 181, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Tupajic, looking at document 181, were you familiar with this
15 document in May - this document specifically - in May and June of 1992?
16 A. No, Mr. Prosecutor.
17 Q. Were you familiar generally with some of the objectives enumerated
18 in that document? And let me ask you to look in particular at items 1 and
19 3. Were you familiar generally with the objective of ethnic separation of
20 Muslims, Croats, and Serbs, first of all?
21 A. We had the occasion to see it in the Tanjug's report from the
22 session in Sokolac. It was then when Mr. Karadzic spoke about it clearly.
23 I didn't know at the time that the National Assembly had already passed a
24 decision on strategic goals, as can be seen from the Official Gazette.
25 Those were published only towards the end of 1993.
1 Q. Mr. Tupajic, just for clarification, I note that you referred to
2 the Tanjug report on the session in Sokolac, which I presume was the 17
3 May meeting, and you said it was then that Mr. Karadzic spoke about it
4 clearly. We looked at the remarks of Mr. Krajisnik in connection with
5 that article. Did you mean Mr. Karadzic or did you mean Mr. Krajisnik?
6 A. I believe that Mr. Karadzic as well was mentioned in Tanjug's
7 report. This is said clearly. It was conveyed by Tanjug's journalist
8 that Mr. Krajisnik repeated that as well.
9 I said that I don't remember those words in detail, but I don't
10 have any doubts about the writing of Tanjug's journalist, especially given
11 the fact that the decision on strategic goals had already been passed and
12 given what Mr. Krajisnik was saying with regard to the life of good
13 neighbours and the words that had taken place in the past.
14 This strategic goal was mentioned at the time, but I didn't know
15 at the time that it was part of the decisions that had been passed by the
16 National Assembly. I believe that in the moment in question, this was
17 still information that was confidential and that the general public was
18 not aware of it.
19 Q. And looking at the objective identified in number 3, eliminating
20 the Drina as a border, were you generally familiar with that objective?
21 A. Not in this form. However, from all the developments and
22 information, some of which may not even have been the truth, everything
23 pointed to the fact that such activities were being undertaken, that these
24 things were going on.
25 Q. Based on your knowledge of Bosnia and Herzegovina at that time,
1 the population structure and anything else you may wish to identify, was
2 it possible to achieve those objectives without the use of forcible
3 relocations of populations?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Can we next take a quick look at the next exhibit item in order,
6 ET 0115-1695.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we do so, Mr. Tieger, you identified the
8 strategic objectives as P181.
9 MR. TIEGER: Was that in error, Your Honour? I'm sorry if it was.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd like to invite you to come up with a better
11 number soon. Let's not spend time on it now. I mean, we all are aware
12 the document we're talking about. If you correct it at a suitable moment.
13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. We'll take care of that, and
14 I appreciate that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Exhibit, Madam Registrar, would you --
16 THE REGISTRAR: P841.
17 MR. TIEGER:
18 Q. Mr. Tupajic, P841 reflects the minutes of the Sokolac Municipality
19 Crisis Staff meeting on June 22, 1992. And if I could direct your
20 attention to item 3. The second sentence of that item, there is a
21 proposal for moving refugees to the area of Foca, Visegrad, and Zvornik.
22 That issue was discussed and a conclusion adopted that the Red Cross
23 should be given a task to consider the possibility for the realisation of
24 such action.
25 First of all, who -- which ethnicity were the refugees who were to
1 be moved to the area of Foca, Visegrad, and Zvornik?
2 A. They were Serbs. This was on the 22nd of June. At the time there
3 were over 5.000 of them in Sokolac from all over Bosnia and Herzegovina
4 and mostly from Sarajevo.
5 Q. And was it proposed that those Serb refugees go to Foca, Visegrad
6 and Zvornik and reside in abandoned houses?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And those would be houses from -- the people who had previously
9 resided in those houses, which ethnicity were those -- were they?
10 A. They were Muslims, that is Bosniaks.
11 Q. Mr. Tupajic, let me turn for a moment, then, to another subject,
12 and I'd like to ask you some questions about the mechanisms of information
13 in Republika Srpska to advise the top leadership of events in Republika
15 What organs or bodies existed for the purpose of gathering
16 information and communicating it to the top leadership of Republika
18 A. At the local level, meaning at the municipal level, there were
19 state security departments which were organised into regional centres of
20 state security, and chiefs for regional security were responsible and
21 reported to the chief of state security who answered for his work and the
22 work of his service to the president of the republic.
23 The second line of information went from public security station
24 via security services centres to the minister of the interior. Who he
25 reported to, I don't know, but I assume that he reported to the highest
1 state organs.
2 The third line of information was the military line of
3 information, starting with the lowest level commands via the brigade
4 commands to the corps commands and further on to the Main Staff, and
5 therefrom, I suppose, a certain amount of information was forwarded to the
6 state leadership.
7 Q. Now, in Sokolac specifically were there people who were in contact
8 with the state leadership and who provided information about events in
9 Sokolac or surrounding areas to the leadership?
10 A. I've talked about the official state institutions. Obviously
11 there was the party line, the SDS line of information. We have already
12 spoken about that. Within that line there were contacts between the
13 presidents of the municipal boards and the leadership of the Serbian
14 Democratic Party. That was the fourth line, which was not a state line
15 but, rather, a party information line.
16 We as the Crisis Staff did not have and we were not duty-bound to
17 inform anybody at any stage in any shape or form, and we communicated as
18 much as we deemed was necessary to us. We communicated with the
19 government of Republika Srpska about the things that concerned everyday
20 life and activities. And obviously if there were initiatives from the
21 Prime Minister and from the state leadership, we would take those under
22 advisement and we would act upon them if that was within our purview of
24 Q. In your answer you spoke about the SDS line of information and
25 indicated, "We have spoken about that --" or that you spoke about that
1 before. Who were the individuals who maintained contact with the
2 leadership in Pale?
3 A. I've already said that Mr. Milovan Bjelica, as president of the
4 Municipal Board at the time, had frequent contacts, mostly with
5 Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik. And Mr. Marko Simic, late Marko Simic,
6 who was a deputy and later on a professional member of staff in the
7 National Assembly, I believe that he used this line to provide information
8 on the developments in Sokolac. In my view the information was mostly
9 verbal and I did not have any insight into that information that was
11 Q. Were bulletins of decisions or any other form of formal recording
12 or informal recording of Crisis Staff minutes or records printed and
14 A. There was an inter-municipal Official Gazette, and I believe that
15 the decisions were published in it. I don't know whether this was done on
16 a regular basis or not. I believe that this was the way to inform the
17 general public on what the Crisis Staff was involved in.
18 Q. At any point did -- was a war commission formed in Sokolac?
19 A. I apologise. I don't understand your question. What commission?
20 For what purpose would that be?
21 Q. Let me ask the question in this way: At any point in 1992 was
22 anyone designated as a war commissioner sent to Sokolac?
23 A. Yes. The so-called War Commission was established. I don't
24 remember when. And as far as I can remember, War Commissioners were
25 members of the National Assembly. The War Commission for Sokolac was
1 Marko Simic. There were three others of us in the War Commission. I
2 believe that this was the way for them to get an insight into the
3 developments in the municipalities, and that's how they could inform the
4 president of the Assembly and probably the president of the republic as to
5 what was going on on the ground.
6 And if you will allow me to add something else. At one point a
7 commission for exchanges was established. There were already Muslims who
8 were detained, and some people from Ilijas were also arrested, and their
9 families had fled to Sokolac. They put pressure on us, and then the
10 Crisis Staff appointed this commission that was involved in exchanges for
11 a long time. I believe that an exchange did take place eventually, but it
12 had taken some time to organise it.
13 Q. Earlier we looked at Crisis Staff minutes in which disarming
14 efforts were discussed and then you've mentioned them a couple of times in
15 your testimony. And then I think -- believe you also indicated that those
16 efforts were undertaken by the 2nd Romanija Brigade.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were Muslim villages, in the summer of 1992, the subject of
19 disarming efforts by the 2nd Romanija Brigade?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were Muslim villages shelled and burned down by the 2nd Romanija
22 Brigade during the summer of 1992; and if so, can you identify those
24 A. These activities started in Donje Babine village. I believe that
25 it was on the last day of July or the beginning of August 1992 after a
1 minor incident that involved the villagers of Muslim and Serb origin.
2 According to my information, and I don't know whether it is absolutely
3 correct, I believe that Muslims initiated this incident in the house of a
4 Serb local. After this incident, one of the units of the 2nd Romanija
5 Motorised Brigade got involved, and from that moment on there were certain
6 clashes and activities that you have referred to.
7 They organised and armed members of a unit were withdrawing from
8 Donje Babine towards Sasevci, and Muslim houses and Serb houses in Vrutci
9 were set fire to. I believe that this was what Muslims did during their
10 retreat. Later on, some other villages were burnt. The biggest one of
11 them Sasevci, then Pitlice, Pridvorica, Grabenice, Islica, Brdov. And at
12 a later stage during the month of August, or even towards the end of
13 August, also the villages in the local commune of Kaljina and Sahbegovic.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock.
15 I would first like to instruct you, Mr. Tupajic, not to speak with
16 anyone about the testimony you've given until now and you're still about
17 to give. Tomorrow we'll continue in the afternoon, that is a quarter past
19 And, Madam Registrar, that would be courtroom III.
20 Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Tupajic out of the
21 courtroom. So we'd like to see you back tomorrow.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then two little matters. The first one, I think we
24 are still waiting for something, Mr. Stewart, in relation to Witness 280,
25 if I'm correct. We raised that yesterday.
1 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, Your Honour, but that -- I hope Your
2 Honours will understand that's a witness that Ms. Loukas was dealing with
3 and she responded yesterday. So --
4 JUDGE ORIE: It was due yesterday so I take it that we receive
5 that soon.
6 MR. STEWART: I'll of course mention that, Your Honour, and we'll
7 deal with it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
9 Then, Mr. Tieger, as far as scheduling is concerned, how much time
10 would you think you would still need with Mr. Tupajic?
11 MR. TIEGER: Well, we'll finish tomorrow, but I would -- I'm
12 certain I'll need the first session of the day and maybe the -- both, the
13 first and second session of the day.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber is aware that they put quite some
15 questions to the witness. At the same time, the scheduling was -- you
16 have scheduled the witness for -- let me just have a look. Yes, eight
17 hours, and that was in total or was that just chief, the time estimate?
18 MR. TIEGER: Well, I think most of our estimates are just in
19 chief, but I would hope to conclude well within that period and I'm
20 certainly making efforts to do so.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. TIEGER: But -- I think that was the estimate when first made.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's the estimate I received last, 27th of
24 June. I've got no more recent estimate.
25 MR. TIEGER: That's consistent.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps you could review, also in view of the
2 experience we had today, on relevance of some issues. For example, we now
3 know that the witness was formally assigned with these tasks so he didn't
4 have to do anything else. Some of the bureaucratics might have been of
5 less importance. I'm not going to tell you exactly what is most relevant
6 because it's finally for yourself to decide, but the Chamber wonders
7 whether some of the -- whether all of the questions would have been
9 We will adjourn until tomorrow, courtroom III, quarter past two.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day
12 of June, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.