Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15712

1 Monday, 4 July 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 I'd like to start with the delivery of two decisions about which

10 the parties are -- about which the parties are already informed. The

11 first one is the decision in respect of protective measures for

12 Witness 165.

13 I'll deliver now the decision of -- of the Chamber on the

14 Prosecution's application made in court last Friday for protective

15 measures, that is, pseudonym, facial distortion, and partial private

16 session for Witness 165.

17 In its oral submissions last Friday, the Prosecution recalled the

18 three-part test set out by this Chamber in its protective measures

19 decision of the 22nd -- the 27th of April, 2005. In that decision, the

20 Chamber stated that the existence of the requisite objectively grounded

21 risk to the security of the witness or the witness's family can be

22 demonstrated through a combination of the following three factors:

23 (1) The expected testimony of the witness may antagonise persons

24 who reside in the territory where the crimes were committed; for example,

25 by implicating those persons in crimes;

Page 15713

1 (2) The witness or his or her family live in that territory, have

2 property in that territory, or have concrete plans to return to live in

3 the territory;

4 And, (3), there exists an unstable security situation, which is

5 particularly unfavourable to witnesses who appear before the Tribunal.

6 It was the Prosecution's submission that these three factors have

7 been established in the case of Witness 165.

8 The Defence, in its oral submissions, emphasised the fact that

9 any risk to the security of the witness or the witness's family must be

10 objectively grounded and submitted that the circumstances of Witness 165

11 do not meet the requisite standard. According to the Defence, if such

12 circumstances were sufficient, protective measures would become the rule

13 rather than the exception.

14 The Chamber considers that its previous rulings have been clear

15 on the question of what will be sufficient to show that an alleged risk to

16 the security of a witness is objectively grounded. Without prejudice to

17 situations falling outside the three-part test I have just recalled, that

18 test was intended to give the parties a clear indication of one situation

19 in which the Chamber will view an alleged security risk as being, in the

20 words of the Defence, an "objective risk."

21 In the case of Witness 165, the Chamber notes that his testimony

22 concerns brutal and serious crimes allegedly committed by Serbs in the

23 territory where members of the witness's family continue to reside, where

24 the witness has property and to which the witness returns regularly. It

25 is the Chamber's view that Witness 165's testimony may well antagonise

Page 15714

1 persons living in that territory, which remains predominantly Serb,

2 exposing the witness and his family to a security risk.

3 Taking into account the UNHCR report of January 2005 to which the

4 Prosecution referred and which this Chamber has accepted as demonstrating

5 a climate unfavourable to those willing to testify before this Tribunal,

6 the Chamber therefore considers that the Prosecution has met the

7 requirements for the requested grant of protective measures in this case.

8 The Chamber orders that Witness 165 testify under pseudonym, with

9 facial distortion, and in private session for those portions of his

10 testimony likely to reveal his identity.

11 This concludes the Chamber's decision.

12 The next decision I'd like to deliver is a -- is a decision on

13 the seventh batch of 92 bis witnesses.

14 I briefly recall that the Chamber is seized of two Prosecution

15 motions for the admission of 92 bis evidence, filed on the 6th of June,

16 2003 (the seventh motion) and on the 9th of January, 2004 (the eighth

17 motion). We are also seized of the Prosecution's fifteenth motion, dated

18 the 20th of May, 2005, which consolidates the remaining 92 bis matters for

19 the Prosecution's case.

20 Madam Registrar, I'd like to ask you to hand out to the parties a

21 list showing the names of the 92 bis witnesses and related material

22 mentioned in the fifteenth motion which is admitted into evidence by

23 virtue of today's decision.

24 All of these witnesses are either protected or their status in

25 this respect is as yet undetermined. This handout therefore is to be

Page 15715

1 filed under seal.

2 I will now deliver the Chamber's decision concerning these

3 witnesses.

4 There seems to be complete agreement between the parties on the

5 material to be admitted. The Defence had only two requests in response to

6 the Prosecution's fifteenth motion, one that it be supplied with the death

7 certificates of the two deceased witnesses; the other that a redaction be

8 made to the transcript evidence of Witness 545. The Prosecution has

9 informed us by filing, dated the 10th of June, 2005, that it has complied

10 with the request for the certificates and agreed -- agrees with the

11 proposed redaction. The Chamber has, as usual, gone through all the

12 proffered material, making its own assessment of the suitability of the

13 material for admission. The Chamber finds, with one exception, that the

14 material is suitable for admission under Rule 92 bis subject to the

15 proposed redaction.

16 The exception I've referred to concerns Witness 674. The

17 fifteenth motion lists as the only item for admission a corrective

18 statement dated 2003 to an original statement, not listed for admission,

19 and as yet not in evidence, dated 1998. Without the original, the

20 corrective statement cannot, of course, be admitted. The legal staff have

21 informed the Prosecution of this apparent oversight, and follow-up action

22 by the Prosecution has already been taken, as the Defence and the Chamber

23 were informed by the Prosecution's e-mail dated the 30th of June, 2005.

24 Unfortunately this means that the application concerning Witness 674

25 cannot be finalised with this decision.

Page 15716

1 In conclusion, the material of the witnesses listed in the

2 fifteenth motion, minus the redacted portion shown in the handout and

3 minus the single item from 2003 for Witness 674, is hereby admitted. The

4 Chamber requests that the Prosecution submit this material to Madam

5 Registrar in due course. Madam Registrar will then assign exhibit numbers

6 to these items and inform the parties and the Chamber.

7 In addition to the outstanding matter of Witness 674, which I

8 referred to above, another outstanding issue is the matter of protective

9 measures - that is, pseudonym and concealment of identity from the

10 public - of Witnesses 10 and 246 [sic]. The Prosecution will inform the

11 Chamber and the Defence of its position in this respect after it has made

12 contact with the witnesses' families. The Prosecution should endeavour to

13 have this matter settled in advance of the 22nd of July. In the meantime,

14 Witnesses 2 -- 10 and 426 will be referred to by their witness codes.

15 This ends the Chamber's decision on the seventh batch of 92 bis

16 witnesses.

17 Then is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

18 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's Witness 165.

20 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Protective measures as just set out in our

22 decision -- the public gallery is empty, which means that the witness can

23 be brought into the courtroom without any risk for being recognised.

24 The technical staff is instructed, I take it, to take care that

25 the face of the witness does not appear.

Page 15717

1 Mr. Usher, could you escort the witness into the courtroom.

2 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honour, while that's happening, just an

3 area where I would be seeking Your Honours' guidance, and that's with

4 respect to proposed contextual documents, a batch of which have already

5 been admitted to evidence and have received P numbers, which I would like

6 to refer the Trial Chamber to, as they might be of assistance. And a

7 small number of additional documents - I think a total of six - which have

8 not yet received numbers. They would be new documents. And I'm wondering

9 if Your Honours would -- if your preference would be to deal with that

10 before the witness begins his testimony or at the conclusion of his

11 testimony.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Numbers will be assigned when the documents are

13 shown to the witness, and we'll then decide at the end.

14 MS. EDGERTON: With respect, Your Honour, the documents I'm

15 referring to --

16 JUDGE ORIE: You're not going to show them to the witness.

17 MS. EDGERTON: No, these are contextual documents.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Contextual, yes.

19 MS. EDGERTON: The potential exhibits to be shown to the witness

20 himself are a small number of photographs, which he will comment on. But

21 these contextual documents are ones which the Prosecution feels would

22 assist all the parties --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we have expressed a preference for

24 contextual documents to be presented when the witness is there, at least

25 in the context of his -- of his testimony so that we don't have to wait.

Page 15718

1 At the same time, these contextual documents are more or less dossier

2 documents as well. We also have to keep in mind that we do not, through

3 this split-up system of contextual documents and dossiers, make the number

4 of documents even higher. But we'll deal with it after the witness has

5 given his testimony.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just prior to the --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness is -- yes.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Just prior to the usher bringing the witness

11 into the courtroom, there was also a matter that I wanted to raise just

12 prior to the -- the witness being brought in.


14 MS. LOUKAS: And that's --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, next time -- the witness is now half in,

16 half out. Could you announce that a bit earlier so that we avoid this

17 rather embarrassing situation with the witness. But please -- please

18 proceed.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Very brief, Your Honour.

20 Your Honours, just in relation to that decision on 674, I can

21 indicate that I think originally the Prosecution had intended to tender

22 some transcript, and I just foreshadow that it's -- it may be likely that

23 the Defence might wish to introduce some of that transcript. That's it,

24 Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that information.

Page 15719

1 Mr. Usher.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness, Witness 165, because that's

4 how we are going to address you.

5 Witness 165, before you give evidence, you're required to make a

6 solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and

7 nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out to you by the usher.

8 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Witness 165.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE ORIE: I would just like you to know that your face cannot

16 be seen by the outside world. We'll not use your name. We'll call

17 you "Witness 165." And if there will be any portion of your evidence that

18 could identify you, then we'll turn into private session so that those

19 portions of the evidence cannot be heard by anyone outside this courtroom.

20 You'll first be examined by Ms. Edgerton, counsel for the

21 Prosecution. Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

22 MS. EDGERTON: If Witness 165 could be given the pseudonym sheet,

23 please. If it could be ...

24 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be Prosecution Exhibit P859,

25 under seal.

Page 15720

1 Examined by Ms. Edgerton:

2 Q. Witness 165, good morning. You --

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. You have a piece of paper in front of you which bears a name and

5 date of birth on that. Could you have a look at that piece of paper for

6 us and tell us if that information relates to you and the information is

7 correct. Is that your name and your date of birth on the piece of paper?

8 A. Yes, it is. Correct.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. EDGERTON: If we could next refer to the witness's previous

11 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor and that could be given an

12 exhibit number, please.


14 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Prosecution Exhibit P860, under seal.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Could the witness receive a copy, please.

16 Q. Now, Witness 165, have you had during the course of your

17 preparation for testimony today a chance to review that statement in your

18 own language?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And does the translation correspond with what was read back to

21 you in 1996?

22 A. It does.

23 Q. Do you recognise your signature on the original English language

24 document which was read back to you at that time?

25 A. [No interpretation]

Page 15721

1 Q. I didn't hear a translation.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, subject to some corrections contained in a separate

4 document, do you find this statement to be substantially correct and an

5 accurate reflection of your recollection of what you saw, heard, and

6 experienced in 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Now if we could refer to the supplementary

10 information report which was signed by the witness, and if it could be

11 given a number, please.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P861, under seal.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. And if you could just assist the witness by

15 turning to that document in the batch of materials he has before him.

16 And I do note that as of now there is no translation into B/C/S

17 of the document the witness has before him because he prepared it late

18 yesterday afternoon, but we should be able to provide one before court

19 concludes this morning.

20 Q. Now, Witness 165, have you had this document read back to you in

21 your own language in preparation for your testimony here today?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And does this document accurately reflect the corrections and

24 clarifications you wish to make to your statement that you gave to the

25 Office of the Prosecutor in 1996?

Page 15722

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Then we'll begin. And I would ask that you keep this

3 statement -- a copy of the statement in front of you for the time being

4 because, Witness 165, as I ask you questions, I'm going to be referring

5 you to paragraphs which you'll see are numbered in your statement that you

6 gave in 1996.

7 Can we just go first, Witness 165, to paragraph 8 of your

8 previous statement.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, do I understand -- I was under the

10 impression that you'd use the 89(F) procedure.

11 MS. EDGERTON: I've done it again, Your Honour. Yes, and I'll

12 read the 89(F) summary at this time.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that you explained to the witness

14 what it means?

15 MS. EDGERTON: I have, Your Honour. And the witness has also had

16 an opportunity to listen to the 89(F) summary.


18 MS. EDGERTON: In his own language.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you have been informed by Ms. Edgerton that

20 we do not require you to repeat everything you said already in your

21 statement. But for the public to know what is -- what are -- is the

22 content of your written statement, a summary will be read out, and then

23 further questions will be put to you.

24 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. And my apologies.

Page 15723

1 The witness is a Muslim from a village in Zvornik municipality in

2 Bosnia. He's married with three children. Prior to the war, the

3 witness's village was almost 100 per cent Muslim.

4 Having heard stories of the crimes perpetrated by Arkan's men in

5 Bijeljina and expecting the Serbs would continue their path of violence

6 into Eastern Bosnia, the people of the witness's village organised to

7 defend themselves.

8 The witness had a clear view of what was happening in Zvornik

9 during the attack and takeover of the town. Early one morning, about a

10 month after Zvornik fell, the witness heard by loudspeaker that Kula Grad

11 had fallen and the people of his village were given an ultimatum to

12 surrender by 9.00 a.m. that day. About one half hour before the ultimatum

13 was to expire, the witness's village was shelled, and the shelling

14 continued for the next eight hours. At dawn the next morning, people were

15 ordered out of their houses to a local hotel. The village had been

16 entered by Arkanovci, Seseljevci, and Beli Orlovi. The villagers were

17 returned to their houses after a period of time, but it was made clear to

18 them by Serb forces that they could not leave the village.

19 The witness describes looting of village homes over the next

20 weeks by Arkan's forces. Villagers were told that apart from looting,

21 nothing would happen to them and they would be safe. The witness reports

22 that one Major Pavlovic came to the villagers and personally guaranteed

23 their safety. On 26 May 1992, however, Pavlovic returned and said that

24 even though he had done his utmost to protect the villagers, they now had

25 to leave and transport would be arranged for them. They were told they

Page 15724












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15725

1 were being taken to Bosnian-held territory. A short time later, between

2 four and five hundred villagers were taken in nine buses to Pogled near

3 Han Pijesak. There they were stopped by Serbs, who told them they

4 couldn't go any further. The Serbs used the prisoners and their buses as

5 human shields for an advance of their front line. Early on 27 May, the

6 detainees were told they weren't able to cross to Bosnian-held territory,

7 as they had planned, but that they were to be taken to Tuzla. The buses

8 travelled to Zvornik, where they were joined by 15 to 20 women and

9 children, and then they travelled to Crni Vrh, where they used again as

10 human shields to advance the front line.

11 After this, the detainees were all driven back to Zvornik, where

12 the men were ordered to leave the buses and go into the local football

13 stadium. They were held at gunpoint on the grandstands, and from the

14 stadium the men were taken to a building, where they remained for two

15 days. On the first day, they were seen by Brano Grujic, who told the

16 detainees they had to list themselves and that he would arrange for them

17 to sign loyalty to the Serb authorities, after which they would be taken

18 to their village and released. He told them he would get food to them.

19 They never saw Grujic again, nor did they receive any food. The list was

20 completed; there were 186 men.

21 After the second day, the detainees were taken to the Dom Kulture

22 in Celopek. They were guarded by Serb police. The prisoners were held

23 there in a single room which had a stage at one end. For three days they

24 received no food or water. On the third day, when they began to receive

25 food, the beatings started. Paramilitary groups started to arrive at any

Page 15726

1 time of the day or night. The witness heard the members of these groups

2 speaking to one another and recognised them as coming from Serbia. From

3 what the witness heard, he concluded one group was led by a man called

4 Dusan Repic; another was made by somebody called Major Toro, and in his

5 group were people with nicknames such as Zoks, Pufte, and Niski.

6 The witness talks in great detail about the extreme beatings and

7 torture the detainees in Celopek were subject to. People were randomly

8 executed, sometimes summarily, sometimes in brutal fashion. Some of the

9 incidents are described in this summary.

10 On 11 June 1992 at about 2.00 a.m., Repic and his men came to the

11 Dom Kulture and said they wanted to celebrate Bajram in a bloody way.

12 They took pairs of fathers and sons onto the stage in the room and forced

13 them to perform fellatio on one another. Two of these prisoners had their

14 penises cut off. They and others were forced to eat them. Some of these

15 victims were slaughtered. Prisoners had their fingers amputated. Repic

16 was in charge of the whole operation. He had a desk that he would call

17 people up to.

18 Repic was armed with a small-calibre rifle. The witness saw

19 Repic use this rifle to shoot four men at close range. They were so close

20 to the witness he was sprayed with blood. That same night, Repic and his

21 men picked out the witness's oldest brother for beating. The man the

22 witness knew as Pufte beat the witness's brother with, among other things,

23 a chair. The brother eventually died from his injuries on 15 June 1992.

24 He never received medical help.

25 On 27 June 1992, Repic arrived at Celopek alone, armed with an

Page 15727

1 automatic rifle. He ordered prisoners to line up in rows of three and

2 began shooting them one by one. At one point, while actually talking with

3 the witness, other prisoners surrounded Repic. He panicked and broke

4 away, ordering the prisoners to line up against the wall. He emptied his

5 gun, an automatic rifle, into the crowd. Twenty people were killed,

6 another twenty-two wounded.

7 The men were eventually transferred to the Zvornik local court

8 building, thanks, the witness later learned, to the intervention of some

9 Serb women with Grujic. There were 104 detainees left by this time.

10 Conditions were cramped. They slept in shifts. Beatings there continued.

11 After two weeks, the men were told they were going to a better

12 place and were loaded onto buses and sent to Batkovic detention facility.

13 There were about 1.600 prisoners there. The witness notes where they were

14 from. The prisoners at Batkovic were sporadically beaten by the guards.

15 From Batkovic, the witness was sent to do forced labour, from working in

16 the fields to working on the front line. This included working in

17 freezing conditions from October 1992 through January 1993. The witness

18 was eventually exchanged on 21 July 1993.

19 And that concludes the summary of the witness's written evidence.

20 Q. Now, Witness 165, having read the summary of the written evidence

21 that you previously gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, I'll begin again

22 with asking you a number of questions based on or drawn from what you set

23 out in your previous statement.

24 If you could have a look at paragraph 8 of your previous

25 statement just to place things a bit more precisely in time. Does this

Page 15728

1 paragraph actually relate to events in very late March and early April of

2 1992?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that only a few days before the attack on Zvornik?

5 A. Zvornik fell -- please could you rephrase your question.

6 Q. Paragraph 8 of your previous statement refers to people of your

7 village arming themselves in defence. How long before the attack on

8 Zvornik did that take place? A short time or a long time?

9 A. A short time before the attack.

10 Q. In this same paragraph, you mention receiving 25 automatic rifles

11 and a machine-gun from the Zvornik SUP. How did that come about? Could

12 you tell us?

13 A. The SUP was divided. So there were 25 automatic rifles and one

14 machine-gun that were provided, one part.

15 Q. And one part being what? Could you just be a bit more precise so

16 we all understand you.

17 A. The regular police force before the war broke out was divided

18 into Serbian and Muslim parts, since the State of Bosnia and Herzegovina

19 had been recognised. So the SUP was divided and 25 automatic rifles and

20 one machine-gun were provided to us by the regular authorities, whereas

21 the other side held onto the other equipment. We used those weapons to

22 erect defence positions along the axis routes to the village of Divic.

23 Q. Now, to your knowledge, was -- could you tell us whether or not

24 there was ever any organised supply of weapons to your village.

25 A. No, there wasn't.

Page 15729

1 Q. Can we turn next to paragraphs 9 in your previous statement

2 through to paragraph 12. Those paragraphs, from what I understand by

3 reading, talk about a series of three negotiations between Muslims and

4 Serbs over the fate of your village.

5 Now, could you tell us: Are these meetings set out in your

6 statement in the chronicle order as they happened? Chronological order.

7 A. [No interpretation]

8 Q. Could you tell us, did these meetings take place before or --

9 THE INTERPRETER: The witness did not hear the witness's answer.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry. My apologies.

12 Q. Let's rephrase -- let me re-put these last two questions so that

13 we hear the answers. Are these meetings set out in your statement in the

14 chronological order in which they took place?

15 A. Yes, they are.

16 Q. And did these meetings take place before or after the attack on

17 Zvornik?

18 A. After the attack on Zvornik.

19 Q. Now, in the negotiations talked about in paragraph 9, could you

20 tell us, how did you yourself come to learn what Halilovic had been told?

21 A. At a gathering in the place, in the village, Halilovic appeared

22 at that gathering and he quite literally said that the inhabitants would

23 come to no harm if we signed a pledge of loyalty to the Serbian

24 authorities.

25 Q. At that time -- do you recall whether at that time Halilovic told

Page 15730

1 the people who were gathered who on the Serb side he had been in contact

2 with?

3 A. He said he had been in contact with Major Pavlovic.

4 Q. Now, I'd like to move to paragraph -- the second set of

5 negotiations mentioned in paragraph 10 in your previous statement, and I'd

6 like to ask you: How did you learn what was said at these negotiations?

7 A. I heard about it at the gathering in the village when the

8 then-representative of Zvornik municipality appeared and the

9 representative of the Zvornik municipality Territorial Defence. They

10 appeared at the stadium. The negotiations had been taking place at the

11 power plant. There were negotiations with Arkan and his men. They said

12 that they had not been successful and that they had fled from that place,

13 and as a result we had to establish a Crisis Staff again.

14 Q. Let's move to paragraph 11, going through your statement. Could

15 you just tell us exactly where Kula Grad is in relation to your village

16 and the city of Zvornik.

17 A. Kula Grad is on an elevation. My place is to the right, Zvornik

18 to the left, and the power plant -- the Zvornik power plant is in the

19 middle. From Kula Grad, there is an excellent view of my village. You

20 can see the entire power plant. You can see Mali Zvornik, which is in

21 Serbia, and you can see part of Zvornik.

22 Q. And how did you come to go up to Kula Grad, as you talk about in

23 that paragraph?

24 A. I went to Kula Grad with another man to check the situation since

25 Zvornik had already fallen and it was a vital point. It was a -- an

Page 15731

1 important position that couldn't easily be taken. I observed what was

2 happening in Zvornik from Kula Grad, and I observed the movement of other

3 paramilitary formations, their movement from Mali Zvornik -- or in Mali

4 Zvornik and in Zvornik.

5 Q. Now, in relation, then, to what you could see, could you tell us

6 whether you saw from this view any military presence in the area in

7 addition to the paramilitaries, any -- any armament, for example.

8 A. There were weapons at the power plant. There were -- there was a

9 anti-aircraft machine-gun. There were tanks. But it was all on the

10 Serbian side, on the side of Republika Srpska. And that is the position

11 from which my town, my village was shelled.

12 Q. If we could move forward, then, in time to the third set of

13 negotiations that you seem to be describing in paragraph 12. Do you know

14 who on the Muslim side was involved in these last negotiations you've

15 described?

16 A. I don't know if I can mention any names.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The witness can mention names. So you may do so.

18 I -- unless you'd consider that by mentioning those names in this context

19 that you would reveal your own identity, because that's protected, not the

20 identity of others. But if it would be so close, if you would be the one

21 who would know those names and others would not and therefore you might

22 identify yourself, then we could turn into private session.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not necessary. I can mention

24 their names. These were inhabitants from my village who were in the

25 Crisis Staff. There was Rasim Zahirovic and Rasim Tabic. They were the

Page 15732

1 last men to be involved in negotiations with Arkan and his men, and these

2 negotiations took place at the power plant, once again.


4 Q. Do you know whether or not those negotiations were successful?

5 A. When they returned, they told us that the negotiations had not

6 been successful. An ultimatum had been issued according to which by 9.00

7 on the following day the weapons were to be surrendered to the Serbian

8 authorities. If they weren't surrendered by that time, the village would

9 be attacked.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Just prior to Ms. Edgerton proceeding with the next

12 question, I might indicate that there does appear to be a -- a

13 mistranslation at page 19, line 9 that might have to be clarified. That's

14 just in the -- you know, "That it was all on the Serbian side, on the side

15 of Republika Srpska."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I wondered -- it came into my mind whether

17 there was any mistake there because, of course, it was just at the border

18 of Serbia.

19 So could you please identify -- please clarify whether -- whether

20 there's any confusion about Serbian side, Republika Srpska.


22 Q. Witness 165, can we just go back to your answers to the questions

23 about what you saw from the view at Kula Grad. You offered to the Court

24 that the armaments that you saw were positioned in Serbia and in

25 Republika Srpska. Could you explain what you mean by that?

Page 15733

1 MS. LOUKAS: Actually, Your Honour, that's not quoting correctly

2 what's on the transcript.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, you said you could see those weapons,

4 and you said where they were located. They were at the other side. Could

5 you tell us whether you meant to say at the territory held by the other

6 forces or on the territory of Serbia proper? So the other side of the

7 river. Could you tell us what you meant.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the other side of the river.

9 That's where an anti-aircraft machine cannons were located, and this

10 belonged to the regular army of the Republic of Serbia and they shelled

11 Kula Grad from that position, and the regular army also used those weapons

12 to subsequently shell my village.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- that is now clear.

14 Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.


16 Q. Going back to where we left off, we left off at the delivery of

17 the ultimatum, and that takes us to paragraph 14 of your previous

18 statement and the attack on your village. Are you able to tell us,

19 because according to your statement you were in your village, from which

20 direction the shelling then came?

21 A. The shelling came from the direction of the Republic of Serbia.

22 I was shelled by the regular army of the then-JNA of the Republic of

23 Serbia. Some of them were at the power plant and others were on the

24 ground.

25 Q. After the shelling of your village had come to an end, could you

Page 15734

1 tell us how you were ordered out of your house.

2 A. A loudspeaker that was at the power plant was used to order us to

3 go towards the Vidikovac Hotel.

4 Q. And I'd like to move now to a question in relation to

5 paragraph 15 of your statement.

6 MS. EDGERTON: And in anticipation of what might come and the

7 answer, I'd ask that we move to private session, please.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll move into private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]


21 Q. Going forward now, Witness 165, to paragraph 16 of your

22 statement. Could I ask you to turn to paragraph 16. Do you see

23 paragraph 16 in front of you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You note a Major Pavlovic came to you and personally guaranteed

Page 15735

1 your safety. Did you actually hear this Major Pavlovic say this?

2 A. Yes, I heard him say that. That was at the gathering at the

3 stadium. Pavlovic appeared in front of a mass of people. He said that

4 nothing would happen to us. He said that we'd sign a pledge of loyalty to

5 the Serbian authorities and that we would remain in the village.

6 Q. And how did you come to be gathered at the stadium on this

7 occasion?

8 A. Well, Halilovic Mirsad, who has already been mentioned, and he

9 had contact with Major Pavlovic. He and some other young men went from

10 house to house and called the people to assemble at the stadium where this

11 meeting was to take place.

12 Q. Was this the first time you ever laid eyes on Major Pavlovic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How was he dressed at the time?

15 A. He was wearing the uniform of the regular JNA, an officer's

16 uniform.

17 Q. Now, if we could move still forward, to paragraph 18 of your

18 previous statement, when you speak about being rounded up in front of the

19 mosque and threatened with being shot. Could you tell us approximately

20 when this incident took place.

21 A. A meeting was held in front of the mosque. Someone called Rambo

22 appeared. This meeting had previously been announced, and some

23 paramilitary formations surrounded us, so he said that we should surrender

24 all our weapons. We hadn't surrendered our weapons. We practically had

25 no weapons. And as a result he said that he had to sign a document

Page 15736

1 stating that the village was not completely cleansed of weapons and he

2 said, "May Allah help you?" He said he had to sign this document for his

3 superiors.

4 Q. Now, Witness 165, I'd like you to probably try and look at me a

5 bit more and be guided by the question that I ask you, because the

6 information that you've given just now is actually information that's

7 contained in your previous statement and in the corrections that you made.

8 The question I'd like to know is: Approximately -- do you

9 remember approximately when this happened? Or if I could help you by

10 asking another way: Do you remember approximately how long after the

11 attack on your village this happened?

12 A. A few days earlier, six or seven days earlier.

13 Q. Do you remember how you were called out to be gathered at the

14 mosque?

15 A. Some inhabitants went from house to house and summoned the men,

16 asked them to go to the mosque. They said that there would be a meeting

17 in front of the mosque.

18 Q. Okay. I -- I'd just like to go back again --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


21 Q. I'd like to go back again just to the answer to your question --

22 or to my question about approximately when you were gathered at the

23 mosque. Your answer was six or seven days before the attack on your

24 village. Is that correct?

25 A. After the attack. The village had already been attacked.

Page 15737












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15738

1 Q. Thank you. Now, let's go to paragraph 19 of your statement. And

2 at this paragraph, you talk about seeing Major Pavlovic again on 26 May

3 1992. Was this actually when you first heard that you were going to be

4 moved out?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When did you hear that?

7 A. I heard that a day before Major Pavlovic appeared at the stadium.

8 It was at a gathering in front of the bakery. Mirsad Halilovic had

9 organised that gathering and Zucanin [phoen] -- was also there -- Zuco's

10 men were there in camouflage uniforms. They said we had to move out. We

11 didn't move out that day; we moved out on the following day.

12 Q. The following day being the day at which you saw Major Pavlovic.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where was this meeting where you saw him the following day?

15 A. He was in front of the stadium -- on the ground in front of the

16 stadium in my village.

17 Q. And how did you come to be assembled at that meeting in front of

18 the stadium?

19 A. Well, as they had done before, they went from house to house and

20 told the people that they had to go to the stadium. They said that there

21 were buses waiting and that we had to move out. When we arrived at the

22 stadium, there were buses waiting for us there. There were nine

23 Drinatrans buses from Zvornik that were waiting there.

24 Q. So how long were you given to pack up?

25 A. Would it be correct only pack the essential things we had, some

Page 15739

1 clothes of ours, and nothing else.

2 Q. So I take it from your --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to put a question to the

4 witness.

5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

6 There's something I would like to understand. In your statement

7 and in the course of your testimony today, you have mentioned the presence

8 of paramilitary groups but also the presence of the so-called regular

9 army, because you say that Major Pavlovic was a member of the JNA. I

10 would like you to explain to us whether these forces were together. I'd

11 like you to tell us whether these forces acted in concert. Were JNA

12 members a group that was different from the members of paramilitary

13 groups, or did they form a whole?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we're referring to the JNA and

15 Major Pavlovic, well, he introduced himself as a JNA officer, an officer

16 of the regular army, and there were no other units with him. He acted

17 independently. He provided protection for our place. But when I

18 previously mentioned units of the regular JNA, I was referring to the

19 Republic of Serbia, to a different state. So we are confusing two

20 separate things.

21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So this major, he was isolated

22 from the JNA at that point in time. He was in the village itself.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He would occasionally come to

24 the village, but I don't know where he'd be -- when it was necessary for

25 him to come to the village, he would come, but he would come to provide

Page 15740

1 protection for us.

2 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And at the time of the

3 negotiations, there were paramilitary members, not just members of the

4 military.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] When you say that this major,

7 Major Pavlovic, was there to protect you, what does that mean?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It means that nothing would happen

9 to us while he was there because paramilitary groups had already taken

10 over power in Zvornik itself. Zvornik fell and they assumed power there.

11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] But when he said he would

12 provide you with protection, protection against whom?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, protection against

14 paramilitary formations: Arkan's men, Seselj's men, the White Eagles. It

15 didn't last for long.

16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So when he came to negotiate,

17 you say that he came alone, without his unit. He was the only member of

18 the military with you. He wasn't accompanied by members of paramilitary

19 groups.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] You said in your statement that

22 on the 26th of May, 1992 Major Pavlovic: "[In English] Once again came

23 and told us that although he had done his utmost to protect us, the time

24 had come," and so on. [Interpretation] He said he did his utmost to

25 protect you; is that correct?

Page 15741

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and that there was nothing

2 else he could do. And as Mirsad Halilovic said on that same occasion,

3 that he was under threat and that his life was in danger.

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I'm referring to Major Pavlovic.

5 He used to tell you that he had done his utmost in order to protect you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not directly. Indirectly. This

7 information was given to us through Mirsad Halilovic, who was the person

8 appointed as a contact person for any talks with Major Pavlovic.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one additional question in this

11 respect.

12 When he said that he could not protect you anymore, if your

13 statement you say that he told you - that's Major Pavlovic - that you had

14 to leave the village and that transport would be arranged for you and that

15 nine buses later arrived. Do you know who arranged for that transport,

16 who arranged for these nine buses that arrived?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The day before, at the meeting,

18 paramilitary formations, headed by Zuco, they chased us and then they came

19 back on the next day and the buses were already waiting, and Zuco's forces

20 made us board the buses under duress, and Major Pavlovic was there in the

21 beginning and then he vanished, and then he talked to us about the

22 situation and he said that he was present.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That does not entirely answer my question. I do

24 understand that both the paramilitaries and Major Pavlovic were aware,

25 observed the buses to arrive. Have you -- was it the paramilitaries that

Page 15742

1 organised those buses or was it Major Pavlovic or someone else, or have

2 you any idea on -- on who? I mean, nine buses usually do not just come

3 from the air. Someone must have organised it.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about it, but the

5 buses were waiting for us at the stadium. As to who organised the buses

6 to come and pick us up and relocate us, I don't know.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And what was your impression? Who finally said that

8 you all had to leave your village? Was it Major Pavlovic who said, "I

9 can't further protect you; therefore you have to leave," or was it the

10 paramilitaries who said, "We don't need you anymore; you have to leave"?

11 What, in your view, caused you to leave? Who put pressure upon it?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The paramilitaries.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.


15 Q. Thank you. I just have -- in addition to what you've heard,

16 Witness 165, a few more questions about that meeting. First of all - and

17 I think you've mentioned this before - what kind of buses were those that

18 were waiting for you?

19 A. Those were Drinatrans Zvornik buses. And I used to take a bus

20 like that before the war on a regular basis to go to work.

21 Q. Did you see who drove these buses that you boarded?

22 A. The drivers who used to drive them before when I took them to go

23 to work, and there were some others that I did not know.

24 Q. And I take it from reference to "guards" in another paragraph of

25 your statement that in addition to the drivers, who you've just said were

Page 15743

1 regular Drinatrans drivers, there -- there were guards on each bus. Is

2 that correct?

3 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that, Your Honour.

4 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]


6 MS. LOUKAS: It really is preferable that -- if there isn't

7 leading, if the witness's voice comes out as opposed to "I take it from

8 references," and what have you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Edgerton. You're invited to lead not in

10 the way you did by Ms. Loukas.


12 Q. Witness, in paragraph 23 --

13 JUDGE ORIE: The witness meanwhile answered the question, so

14 therefore, I don't know whether it's any need -- I didn't understand it to

15 be an invitation to repeat the question.

16 MS. LOUKAS: No, it certainly isn't, Your Honour.


18 MS. LOUKAS: But I would invite Ms. Edgerton to ensure that that

19 no longer occurs.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.


22 Q. These guards that were on the bus, did you see what they were

23 wearing?

24 A. Camouflage uniforms. Those were Zuco's people.

25 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not hear the last

Page 15744

1 sentence. Could the witness speak closer to the microphone, please.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You are invited to come a bit closer to the

3 microphone because the witnesses [sic] have difficulties in hearing you at

4 the same time. Yes.


6 Q. Now, one last question with respect to paragraph 19. You note

7 that you and your buses were used as human shields in an advance, but you

8 don't describe how this happened in that paragraph. Could you tell us now

9 how you were used as human shields.

10 A. When we boarded the bus, we set off. And in the area of

11 Han Pijesak there were tanks and heavy artillery preceding us by about a

12 kilometre and we followed on those buses, and then we also spent the night

13 on the buses.

14 Q. And [Microphone not activated]

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Pardon me.

17 Q. In paragraph 21, you say that you were again used as human

18 shields at a location called Crni Vrh. First of all, where is Crni Vrh?

19 A. Crni Vrh is about 20 kilometres away from Zvornik in the

20 direction of Tuzla.

21 Q. And how on this second occasion were you used as human shields,

22 as you've described -- or as you mentioned in this paragraph?

23 A. In the same way as before, in the area of Han Pijesak.

24 Q. I'd like to move now to paragraph 25 and at that point we're

25 dealing with your return to Zvornik and your stay in the Novi Izvor

Page 15745

1 building. Could you tell us how you were escorted from the stadium into

2 the Novi Izvor building?

3 A. We went in a column of four holding hands, from the stadium to

4 the Novi Izvor building, and we were flanked by police from the reserve

5 forces.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

14 And I do note the time, Your Honour. Could I have some guidance

15 as to when you'd like to take a break.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We usually have a break at 10.30. If this would be

17 a suitable moment, we could -- we could take the break now.

18 MS. EDGERTON: [Microphone not activated]

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

20 MS. EDGERTON: I would only have two more questions, Your Honour,

21 and then -- we would take us another two minutes and then lead us right

22 to 10.30.


24 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

Page 15746


2 Q. You say in this paragraph 25 that Brano Grujic came to Novi Izvor

3 and told you to do certain things and promised you certain things. How

4 did you recognise the person you've said was Brano Grujic?

5 A. Because I knew him in person.

6 Q. Were you under guard while you stayed at Novi Izvor?

7 A. Yes. Reserve police officers kept guard.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Maybe now, Your Honour, it would be a

9 suitable time for a break.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Edgerton, could you also give us for

11 scheduling purposes, give us an impression on how much time you would need

12 in total? You spent now a little bit over one hour.

13 MS. EDGERTON: I -- your indulgence for just a moment, please.

14 After the break, perhaps -- I think no more than one further

15 hour, Your Honour. Perhaps less.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

17 We'll have a break and we'll resume at five minutes to 11.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be brought into the courtroom, as

21 the public gallery is empty, Mr. Usher.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Your Honour, as we move on to the next areas

25 of questioning, I think it's going to be prudent that we also move into

Page 15747

1 private session and remain in private session for some time.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll move into private session.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15748











11 Pages 15748-15756 redacted. Private session.















Page 15757

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]


23 Q. Witness 165, I'd like to move forward in time to paragraph 43 of

24 your statement that you gave to the OTP, and that deals with your transfer

25 from Celopek to the court building in Zvornik. Do you know where the

Page 15758

1 court building was in relation to the municipality headquarters building?

2 A. Yes. It was about 15 or 20 metres away.

3 Q. How were you moved from Celopek to the court building?

4 A. We were moved in Drinatrans Zvornik buses, and this time we were

5 escorted by the reserve police force.

6 Q. And while you were held at the court building, were you under

7 guard?

8 A. Yes, we were guarded by the reserve police force.

9 Q. How did you come to learn about -- as you say in paragraph 43,

10 how did you come to learn that local Serb women after the Vidovdan

11 incident had gone to see Grujic to protest that people from Divic had been

12 killed?

13 A. I found out about that after a long period of time, when I was

14 moved to the Batkovic camp. Other Muslims who were detained with me told

15 me about that, but they had arrived later on. They were still in Zvornik

16 and they said that they were looting other houses for paramilitary

17 formations.

18 Q. Can we move forward, then, to paragraph 48 of your statement, and

19 that deals with the transfer to Batkovic. Could you tell us how you were

20 moved to Batkovic.

21 A. We were moved to Batkovic in Drinatrans buses, and there were

22 members of paramilitary formations in uniform with us, two in each bus,

23 and there was also a line-up of the reserve police force.

24 Q. I'm sorry, a line-up of the reserve police force where?

25 A. From the building where we were detained, the former court

Page 15759

1 building, up -- as far as the buses. There were two lines with five

2 metres in between each of them, two lines of the reserve police force. We

3 got on the buses. We didn't know where we were going, but later we found

4 out that we had arrived in the village of Batkovic. We had arrived at a

5 farm.

6 Q. You mentioned that 22 wounded had been moved from Celopek to the

7 courthouse in Zvornik, but I wonder if you know what happened to those 22

8 after you were transferred to Batkovic. Did they go to Batkovic with you?

9 A. Those wounded individuals stayed on in the building. They

10 remained in the building, and we went to Batkovic and we heard nothing

11 about them afterwards. Later on a neighbour who had been detained with

12 them arrived. He arrived in Batkovic and he said that they had all gone

13 in the direction of -- left in the direction of Olovo-Kladanj for an

14 exchange, but they have all disappeared without a trace.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, that concludes my questions for

16 Witness 165.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

18 Ms. Loukas, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

19 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, there's just some material that I'll

20 need to check prior to the -- the commencement of my cross-examination. I

21 can indicate my cross-examination won't be very long, but I -- I'd like to

22 check this material prior to the commencement. I'm just wondering if we

23 could perhaps take an early break or what have you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But thinking of breaks and scheduling, would

25 the next witness be available for the Prosecution? I wonder whether ...

Page 15760

1 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: No. I take it the next witness would be available

3 tomorrow.

4 MR. TIEGER: Correct.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time do you think you'd need,

6 Ms. Loukas?

7 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I've just received a note that I

8 need to look at. I mean, we can either -- you can either give me, I don't

9 know, ten minutes, Your Honour, or -- or we can take the break now and

10 then proceed with the cross-examination.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if -- if you would not need much time -- I

12 understand it to be not more than 15 or 20 minutes.

13 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour, yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Is that correct? Yes. Then perhaps we have a very

15 short -- we'll give you the ten minutes now and not have the break,

16 because that would finally result in a later moment where we can conclude

17 this morning's session.

18 MS. LOUKAS: As Your Honour pleases.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then have a break for ten minutes. If you'd

20 need more time, Ms. Loukas, would you please take care that we are

21 informed.

22 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn -- we'll resume at ten minutes to

24 12.00.

25 --- Break taken at 11.39 a.m.

Page 15761

1 --- On resuming at 12.02 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, are you ready to cross-examine the

3 witness? If he's in the courtroom.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Once he's in the courtroom.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, once he's in the courtroom, then I'm ready to

7 cross-examine him, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Mr. Usher, could you please escort him

9 into the courtroom. The public gallery is empty; is that correct? Yes.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 165, you'll now be examined by Ms. Loukas,

12 counsel for the Defence. The Chamber observed and noticed that giving

13 this testimony is quite emotional for you. Whenever you think you'd need

14 more time, please ask for it and take your time.

15 Ms. Loukas, please proceed.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:

18 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

19 A. Good afternoon.

20 Q. Now, Witness, I just want to echo the -- the words that have been

21 indicated by His Honour to you. And I echo as Defence counsel should you

22 at any time need a break or what have you, please inform the Court.

23 Now, what I also want to make clear to you, just to make you

24 comfortable, is that I won't be asking any questions about the appalling

25 events that you've given evidence of, but I'd like to ask you some

Page 15762

1 surrounding questions. I take it you understand the -- the approach that

2 I've just outlined?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Have you understood what Ms. Loukas said to you,

4 that she'll not put questions to you on the appalling events but some

5 questions -- some surrounding questions? Yes?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


8 Q. Now, Witness, just in relation to the -- this man that you've

9 given evidence in relation to, the man called Repic, his full name, of

10 course, is Dusan Vukovic; correct? Vuckovic; correct?

11 A. I'm not sure, but they called him Dusan Repic.

12 Q. Well, are you aware that, in fact, Mr. Repic has been sentenced

13 in Serbia for matters of the nature of which you've given evidence of?

14 Are you aware of that?

15 A. I have some knowledge about the fact, and I've been told that he

16 has been convicted.

17 Q. Yes. And I think that matter can be confirmed by the -- the

18 Prosecution in that regard.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, is that confirmed?

20 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I'm -- I'm in possession of an

21 indictment against Mr. Dusko Vuckovic for a number, not all, of the crimes

22 that arose from Celopek. I can confirm, but I'd have to consult with a

23 colleague outside of the courtroom, whether or not he's in fact been

24 sentenced.


Page 15763












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Page 15764

1 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Ms. Loukas, a very -- perhaps a very technical

3 question: Is this a final judgement?

4 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. I -- I, in fact, did not have any

5 material from the Prosecution in relation to this question. I asked my

6 case manager to perform an Internet search in relation to these matters

7 confirming that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And do you by any way happen to know what the

9 punishment imposed was?

10 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. There is an article in the

11 newspaper in Belgrade of July the 12th, 2001 that indicates ten years.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Thank you.


14 Q. Now, were you aware, Witness, that this man was diagnosed as a

15 severe psychopath?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, Witness, just going on to another matter. Just in relation

18 to -- of course, you gave a statement to the -- the Prosecution that is an

19 exhibit before the Court. (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15765

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15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

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19 (redacted)

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Page 15766











11 Pages 15766-15792 redacted. Private session.















Page 15793

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9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE ORIE: We now are in open session again. Witness 165 has

23 finished his testimony and is excused.

24 Ms. Edgerton, I take it that you'd like to discuss briefly the

25 contextual exhibits?

Page 15794

1 MS. EDGERTON: Please, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, you've seen the list. I think the

3 usual way of dealing with it is that you get one week to oppose. If --

4 MS. LOUKAS: And these documents are, of course, in addition to

5 the -- the dossier.

6 JUDGE ORIE: In -- to the Zvornik dossier, yes.

7 I would have one question at this moment, Ms. Edgerton - and

8 perhaps draw at the same time the attention of the Defence to it - I see

9 that there are two interviews on the list, Dusko Vuckovic -- usually

10 statements are introduced either through 92 bis or 89(F) or in special

11 circumstances through expert report. Here I see that -- of course, we

12 have not seen it yet, but is there any explanation for not following the

13 92 bis or -- I can imagine the specific position of this person has played

14 a role.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, it does and has, Your Honour. And just to

16 put those two proposed contextual documents in context. When Mr. Hannis

17 tendered P780, which is one of the contextual documents I would refer the

18 Trial Chamber to that's already been entered into evidence --


20 MS. EDGERTON: -- that was in his examination-in-chief of the

21 Witness Davidovic. And when he tendered that document, he indicated to

22 the parties he was also tendering 17 statements.


24 MS. EDGERTON: Which were translated up to that point. There was

25 just -- that's 17 from a total of 65. He also stated the Prosecution's

Page 15795

1 intention was to complete the translations of those documents and review

2 their contents and perhaps consider tendering them through a later

3 witness, 682, or in the Zvornik dossier. But because of the particular

4 position of these two individuals who gave these statements vis-a-vis the

5 witness's testimony, I thought it more useful to the parties to draw the

6 parties' attention to those two at this time rather than at a later time.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll have a look at it and we'll also have a

8 look at the relation, 92 bis and 89(F) and this non-92 bis, non-89(F)

9 introduction.

10 I'd like to very briefly deal with a few procedural matters.

11 First of all, Mr. Krajisnik, you have presented some documents.

12 The cover page will first be -- that's in relation to witnesses that have

13 already -- that testified already. The cover pages will first be

14 translated. Then we'll deal with it once we have access to that. So

15 we'll come back to that. That's one thing.

16 Then there is another matter. Let me just find it. Yes. In

17 relation - and this is new - in the sixth batch of 92 bis material, the

18 Chamber said that it was a bit uncertain in respect of witness or expert

19 Kaiser, what portions of his transcript were tendered because there were

20 no highlights in it. We have not been fully consistent in that decision

21 because a similar problem, although not entirely -- not exactly the same,

22 is true for Mr. Wright. There's one transcript where only a few pages are

23 highlighted and there's another transcript where there are no pages

24 highlighted at all. The Chamber would also here like to know whether that

25 second -- of that second transcript, without any highlighting, whether

Page 15796

1 that is a mistake or whether you'd just say it's there but nothing is

2 standard, because there's no highlights, or that it is just the other way

3 around, that everything is standard because there are no highlights. We'd

4 like to hear about that.

5 And then finally, I do understand that in relation to the expert

6 Nielsen that where the Chamber has invited the Prosecution to -- to review

7 the relevance of -- especially of those documents that were not used, and

8 I also do understand that such a review has taken place. Has it been

9 discussed already with the Defence so that the Chamber can be informed

10 about to what extent there's any dispute about what should and what should

11 not be admitted into evidence?

12 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. My understanding was that the

13 Court would first make a determination about whether or not those

14 submitted documents fell within the Court's guidelines and then the

15 Defence would have a chance to respond to -- if it felt that any of those

16 documents were for some reason not properly admissible.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can imagine why you'd think that, but I

18 think the best way -- I mean, even a determination whether these documents

19 fall within the guidelines of the Chamber, yes or no, is something which

20 is a matter for -- could be a matter of dispute. So therefore the Chamber

21 would prefer to -- to -- that the OTP informs the Defence what conclusions

22 they have reached as far as relevance, et cetera, and then inform the

23 Chamber whether there's any remaining dispute about that. And, of course,

24 the final determination whether the Chamber accepts that or not is of

25 course in our hands.

Page 15797

1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll take the first

2 opportunity to do that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm -- yes, Ms. Edgerton.

6 MS. EDGERTON: With respect to the contextual documents, I have

7 been reminded that with those that have already received an exhibit number

8 should be read onto the record.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'd rather not deal with that.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Fine.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have to deal with that tomorrow. I'm aware

12 also that it's not very convenient for you because you might have to come

13 back to court. But if there's no disagreement, then -- about it, then it

14 might not even be necessary for you to return; although, you're always --

15 we like to see you come into court, Ms. Edgerton.

16 Ms. Loukas, you as well, by the way.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, thank you. I'm very happy for that, Your

18 Honour.

19 I might indicate that I've -- I've got copies of that particular

20 statement that I was cross-examining on in both English and B/C/S. And I

21 should also place on the record that the printer wasn't working in the

22 Defence room this morning, and Ms. Edgerton very kindly - and we're most

23 appreciative of that - gave us her English copy so we could photocopy it

24 for the Court's benefit, which makes proceedings a lot more efficient.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It's always good to hear that. Cooperation is good.

Page 15798

1 At least, I'd like to assign D numbers to this exhibit.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, out of an abundance of caution, we see

4 that this, of course, could confuse, that the institute also provided a

5 pseudonym to the -- to the witness, which of course --

6 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- is a different one than we use. It's a

8 non-signed statement.

9 Let's do it the following way: We assign a -- an exhibit number

10 to it. It seems that the witness at least confirmed that he has spoken to

11 people. If there's any objection, the OTP, the Office of the Prosecution,

12 might take one or two days to -- to see whether the -- the fact that the

13 statement is not signed is -- causes any problem. Yes?

14 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, as I understood it --


16 MS. LOUKAS: -- there was no objection. I don't know if the

17 Prosecution needs two days and the matter can be settled at this point.

18 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Well, let's just say we provisionally admit

19 it into evidence but the Prosecution -- yes.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Under seal.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Under seal, yes. That's because, of course, we find

22 a lot of information in the statement that might be --

23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that other

24 material - and I note the time and I'm sure everybody --


Page 15799

1 MS. LOUKAS: -- the interpreters and the staff outside the

2 courtroom are probably anxious to finish the session --

3 JUDGE ORIE: And the other Chambers who want to sit perhaps.

4 Yes.

5 MS. LOUKAS: The only other aspect, of course, is that material

6 in relation to the man Repic. And I can now -- I can tender that actual

7 article that I referred to as well.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- I do understand. Nevertheless, in order

9 to avoid that we get all kind of different information, like the rape was

10 in this context, was not in the context, he got ten years, he got 15 years

11 that, the parties first try to find out what relevant facts are agreed

12 upon. Then inform the Chamber about it. And I think if you agree,

13 it's -- it's not in the core of the case. It's not -- it's just

14 background.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you do agree, the Chamber could just accept that.

17 And if we need any further documentation, we'll ask for it. And if the

18 parties would agree that it would be helpful to already have the

19 documentation - for example, by one translation, a copy of the judgement

20 or whatever - then we'll hear from the parties.

21 MS. LOUKAS: And just one final matter very quickly, Your Honour.

22 I just want to ensure through Your Honour that if -- if there is

23 material of this sort, that the Prosecution does provide it to us.


25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.

Page 15800

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

2 MR. TIEGER: We will, as we have in the past, endeavour to be of

3 as much assistance as possible. These are public documents, however, and

4 it doesn't obviate the obligation of the Defence to engage in their own

5 efforts to find and locate and use documents which are readily available

6 to both sides.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, as I said before, I used the

8 very cautious expression that these documents tend to be not unfavourable

9 to the Defence, so they could -- and to what extent they're public is --

10 is sometimes uncertain. I mean, if it is on the Internet, from what I

11 understand, then first I can imagine that you'd rather have it verified as

12 to the quality of the document, what's comment, what's -- what's a

13 authentic document. So therefore I'm a bit cautious at this moment to say

14 that in respect of this material, that it's just public documents, and I

15 carefully listen to you, Mr. Tieger. I also heard you say - which is

16 perhaps even more important - that the OTP does it utmost best always to

17 assist the Defence in this respect.

18 MR. TIEGER: Just trying to strike the right balance, Your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've done that for you.

21 Yes, then numbers for the ...

22 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be Defence document

23 number D45, under seal.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

25 And then not one word of apology but I should spend at least 25

Page 15801

1 words of apology to the technical staff and the interpreters for this late

2 finish today.

3 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.04 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of

6 July, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.