Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15949

1 Thursday, 7 July 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Case IT-00-39-T,

8 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Mr. Gaynor, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

11 I do understand that the next witness would be Witness 031, to be examined

12 through videolink, with protective measures: Face distortion, voice

13 distortion, and pseudonym.

14 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Your Honour.

15 Before we begin the evidence, Mr. Stewart has informed that he

16 wishes to take two minutes on a point, and we have no objection.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And before I give an opportunity to do that -

18 - no, I'll wait with that.

19 The dossiers of Novi Grad and Banja Luka still need to be

20 assigned exhibit numbers, but perhaps Mr. Registrar will wait until Ms.

21 Philpott is back to assist us because she has a better overview.

22 Mr. Stewart.

23 MR. STEWART: Yes. It was only this briefly, Your Honour: Of

24 course, we have all been - and I think all of us actually, one way or

25 another - have been involved in complicated and not always particularly

Page 15950

1 easy negotiations and discussions over the last two or three weeks, while

2 at the same time all or most of us are having to deal with witnesses who

3 are sometimes complicated and not easy either.

4 Your Honour, the position is this: We are approaching a time

5 that I know that the Trial Chamber had in mind as a time when, really,

6 these matters needed to be concluded one way or another or brought to a

7 head. Your Honour, the -- in view of all the various issues, I and my

8 team, we really do need to have this weekend to think about all these

9 things and pull the threads together. We, on the Defence side, are

10 certainly anxious that this matter should not be left in limbo for much

11 longer, which we believe is a position shared by the Trial Chamber and all

12 concerned and Mr. Krajisnik.

13 What we would ask is that perhaps, if it is convenient and fits

14 the Trial Chamber's planning, that sometime early next week appropriate

15 opportunities might be given for the Defence and everybody else to express

16 their up-to-date views on where we are at the end of this week and at the

17 very beginning of next week. But, Your Honour, I'm just asking that we

18 don't grapple with all these issues before the weekend because we really do

19 need some time to reflect and discuss matters on the Defence side. But

20 then, please, may we have, in the light of -- of where we are, then, may we

21 have appropriate opportunity early next week to make whatever

22 representations, submissions fit in with where everybody is at that point.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart, of course, the Chamber will give

24 an opportunity to make such submissions. At the same time, I would say it

25 goes almost without saying that the Chamber is -- of course, was concerned

Page 15951

1 about the situation. The Chamber very much was in favour of resolving the

2 matter between Mr. Krajisnik, the Defence team, and the Registrar.

3 Although the Chamber itself, of course, is not responsible for the

4 composition of the Defence team, it has a task, in this respect, to the

5 extent that these problems would affect the trial, the fairness of the

6 trial, and the rights of the accused.

7 We'll wait until after the weekend, and we'll hear your

8 submissions. Again, the Chamber hopes and is still confident that an

9 agreement can be reached. Of course, if not, then the Chamber will have to

10 decide on a matter which is pending already for a couple of weeks.

11 MR. STEWART: Yes, well, that's understood, Your Honour. And

12 may I ensure Your Honour that I and my team, so far as they are actively

13 involved - though it is mainly me on this one - I will continue over the

14 next couple of days to work to do what I can, but really by close of play

15 on Friday, I suspect that we will know what progress we've made, where we

16 are, and then that reflection and those submissions will ensue.

17 But thank you, Your Honour. That's very cooperative, if I may

18 say so, and we appreciate that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that the Prosecution has no

20 submissions to make in this respect. Otherwise, I'll hear from them.

21 We'll then, now, still being in open session, but we'll now have

22 the videolink with Sarajevo. And we receive that on -- yes, on video

23 evidence.

24 May I just check with the technicians whether the face

25 distortion and the voice distortion is effective because I can't check that

Page 15952

1 on my screen at this moment. I -- yes, I see on the video screen that at

2 least the face distortion is effective.

3 [Witness testified via videolink]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to the representative of the Registry

5 and the witness in Sarajevo. Can you hear me, Witness 031, because that's

6 how I'm going to address you. Can you hear me in a language you

7 understand?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So everything is all right.

10 Witness, before you give evidence before this Tribunal, the

11 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration

12 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 The text, as I see, is now handed out to you by the representative of the

14 Registry. Good morning to you, as well. May I invite you to make that

15 solemn declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 031, protective measures are in effect.

22 That means that no one in the outside world can see your face, can hear

23 your own voice, and we'll not use your own name. We'll address you by the

24 pseudonym 31.

25 You'll now first be examined by Mr. Gaynor, who's here in The

Page 15953

1 Hague, counsel for the Prosecution.

2 Mr. Gaynor, please proceed.

3 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 I'd request that the registrar show the witness the pseudonym

5 sheet, please.

6 Examined by Mr. Gaynor:

7 Q. Witness 031, could you confirm that that is your name and that is

8 your date of birth on that sheet.

9 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I ask my friend just to stop for

10 a moment. There's a problem with my client's translation, I'm afraid.


12 MR. JOSSE: The usher is very helpfully trying to sort it out.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We have some technical problems here at this

14 moment, so we'll just have a pause for a short moment.

15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I think my own microphone was on

16 while Mr. Krajisnik's was being sorted out. I apologise. We were having

17 some informal chats here, Your Honour.


19 MR. STEWART: So if that was shared, then it was really not much

20 to do with the case, Your Honour, frankly, but my apologies if that got

21 shared.

22 MR. JOSSE: Of more importance, I'm afraid Mr. Karganovic is

23 doing something for us at the moment. We perhaps could benefit from him to

24 interpret between the technician and Mr. Krajisnik.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's -- first of all, to inform Sarajevo, we

Page 15954

1 are still busy to resolve the technical problem we have with the

2 translation to B/C/S at this very moment. I'll speak a few words so that

3 you, Mr. Krajisnik, can check whether you now get translation on the right

4 channel.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. I didn't hear a single word

6 that the witness said. That's why I tried to get the technician's help.

7 There are six channels, and the witness should be listened to on channel 8.

8 JUDGE ORIE: There are eight -- there are more than six

9 channels. I do understand that at least the distorted voice of the witness

10 could be heard on channel 8.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: May I invite Sarajevo to ask the witness to speak a

13 few words to see whether what he says is ...

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have been able to follow

15 everything.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, has the matter been resolved?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it has. Everything is fine.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then we can continue. I was just about to ask the

19 witness to make the solemn declaration of which the text was handed out to

20 him.

21 Could I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a matter of fact, Witness, you made that

25 solemn declaration before. When I asked you to do it and to do it again,

Page 15955

1 it was so that Mr. Krajisnik could hear you make that solemn declaration,

2 as well.

3 Mr. Gaynor, you may proceed.

4 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Witness, could you look at the pseudonym sheet, please. Could

6 you confirm that that is your name and your date of birth on that sheet.

7 A. Yes, the details are correct.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to instruct the representative of the

9 Registry in Sarajevo to keep the pseudonym sheet with her as an exhibit,

10 attached to it a brief statement, which could be a one-line statement that

11 this is the pseudonym sheet you received from the witness, and where you

12 received it, when you received it. Take it back to The Hague so that the

13 pseudonym sheet together with this short statement will be admitted as an

14 exhibit, and the number would then be, Mr. Registrar ...?

15 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit will be tendered and admitted under

16 evidence under the reference P878, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, under seal.

18 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

20 MR. GAYNOR: I'd request to go into private session to introduce

21 some details with the witness.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn into private session.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15956

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

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23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15957

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 MR. GAYNOR: I'd request the registrar now to give to the

4 witness his witness statement.

5 Q. Sir, is that a statement which records interviews you had with

6 members of the Office of the Prosecutor?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Have you had the opportunity to carefully review that statement

9 over the past two days?

10 A. Yes, I have.

11 Q. Is that statement true to the best of your knowledge and belief?

12 A. Having had a look at the statement, it does correspond to what I

13 said; on the whole, yes, it's correct.

14 MR. GAYNOR: We'd request that the statement be given an exhibit

15 number, and we tender that statement under seal.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. This piece of --

18 this document will be tendered into evidence under the reference P879,

19 under seal.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


22 Q. Witness, I'm now going to read for the public a summary of the

23 evidence contained in your statement.

24 KRAJ 031 is a Bosnian Muslim from a village in the municipality

25 of Ilijas. In his written statement, the witness states that, prior to the

Page 15958












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Page 15959

1 outbreak of conflict, fuel was removed from a major JNA fuel warehouse in

2 Ilijas municipality. The witness states that local SDS president and

3 president of the municipality, Ratko Adzic, ordered that a permit for the

4 construction of a Catholic church should not be issued.

5 The witness also describes efforts in late 1991 by the SDS

6 deputies in Ilijas Municipal Assembly, led by Ratko Adzic, to pass a

7 resolution in the Municipal Assembly permitting Ilijas municipality to join

8 the SAO Romanija. As the SDS did not have an absolute majority in the

9 Municipal Assembly, the resolution initially did not pass. Under SDS

10 pressure, an SDP Municipal Assembly member was persuaded to vote for the

11 decision. This provided the SDS with the requisite majority, and Ilijas

12 joined the SAO Romanija. Signs at the municipality building were changed

13 accordingly. An SDS flag flew from the municipality building. Non-Serb

14 policemen were disarmed and dismissed. The local SDK branch was taken

15 over, and taxes were paid to the SAO Romanija instead of to the state of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Non-Serbs were unable to cash cheques; non-Serb

17 pensioners no longer received their pensions. Non-Serbs were dismissed

18 from their positions in the TO, the health centre, and the employment

19 bureau.

20 A large fuel facility, belonging to the oil company INA, was

21 taken over by White Eagles and others following the takeover of the

22 municipality. Muslims and Croats who worked at the fuel facility were

23 dismissed. Barricades, manned by local SDS officials, including the

24 president of the Municipality, Ratko Adzic, were set up. Vehicles and

25 people were searched for weapons. The witness overheard Ratko Adzic

Page 15960

1 explain to three young men, who were dissatisfied with the task of carrying

2 out searches, that there would later be opportunities for killing and

3 proving themselves. The witness describes the presence of young men from

4 the Knin front in town. In May 1992, Serb police arrived at the witness's

5 village in an APC. A Serb policeman demanded that the villagers surrender

6 their weapons and recognise that they were living in SAO Romanija. He said

7 that he would provide security for the village after this recognition. The

8 witness left his village on 3rd of June, 1992, and remained in Breza

9 municipality until the end of the war. The witness also describes the

10 destruction of religious and cultural property. All 21 Muslim religious

11 monuments in the municipality of Ilijas were destroyed.

12 MR. GAYNOR: That ends the reading of the summary.

13 Q. Witness, I'm now going to ask you a few questions about your

14 statement. There's no need for you to refer to your statement while I'm

15 doing this.

16 Now, in your statement, as I've just mentioned, you said there

17 were -- this is at paragraph 14 and also at paragraph 15 of the witness's

18 statement. You said that there were 21 religious monuments in the Ilijas

19 municipality, which were of the Bosniak people and Islamic religion. How

20 many of those monuments were mosques?

21 A. Out of the 21 Muslim buildings in the Ilijas municipality, three

22 of them were mosques. There were three mosques: One in town; there was

23 one in Srednje, and there was another in Srna Rijeka. The other religious

24 buildings were smaller ones, where religious rites were performed, and

25 there were two buildings in which religious rights weren't performed, but

Page 15961

1 the Muslims used them. The Muslims attached a lot of importance to these

2 buildings.

3 Q. Now, on the basis of the information which you received when you

4 were in Breza municipality, how many of the 21 Muslim religious facilities

5 were destroyed in the year 1992?

6 A. In 1992, religious facilities were destroyed as certain inhabited

7 places were taken in Ilijas municipality.

8 Q. Now, of the 21 which you name in your statement --

9 A. So, for example -- yes. Yes.

10 Q. I just want to interrupt. Of the 21 which you -- which you refer

11 to in your statement, how many of those 21 were destroyed in 1992?

12 A. Out of the 21 facilities -- in 1992, 20 were destroyed. There

13 was only one in Srna Rijeka, which was destroyed in 1993 because an attack

14 in that village was launched at a subsequent date.

15 Q. Moving on now to a separate topic, and that is the --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, could you try to elicit from the

17 witness what the character of the other religious buildings were. He says

18 there were three mosques. And the character of the other ones, not to go

19 through them one by one, but to give us an impression.

20 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.

21 Q. Of the 21 buildings, Witness, you said three were mosques. Can

22 you describe generically what the other 18 were. What was the character of

23 those buildings?

24 A. The other religious buildings were low buildings; they were small

25 buildings. They weren't mosques, but they buildings in which religious

Page 15962

1 rites were performed. They had the same importance as mosques, but in

2 terms of their architecture and their size, they did not resemble mosques.

3 Q. Can you -- can you just give me the -- the names that you refer

4 to them in your own language.

5 A. Mesdzid, which is something like a small mosque.

6 Q. And is it right that some of the others were turbe?

7 A. Yes, there were two turbes, which were destroyed. A turbe is not

8 a religious building, but it is a building which the Muslims attached

9 importance to. They would visit such buildings, and such buildings had a

10 certain significance for the Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. Yes. Thank you. I'm moving now to a separate topic, which is

12 the -- the votes which preceded the December 24th vote in which the

13 Municipal Assembly decided to join the SAO of Romanija. You say in your

14 statement that "Zoran Zagorcic was put under what you describe as physical

15 pressure by the SDS. This is at paragraph 26. Now, without referring to

16 your statement, Witness, can you tell us, how did you become aware that Mr.

17 Zagorcic was put under pressure by the SDS?

18 A. Well, look, I wasn't a great friend of Zoran Zagorcic, but I knew

19 him since he was a local doctor who worked in the clinic in Ilijas. So in

20 a certain sense, he was a public figure in the town itself. As far as this

21 paragraph is concerned, a decision on separating Ilijas and making it part

22 of the Romanija SAO was a subject of discussion in the town, in the

23 municipality of Ilijas. That was the only subject discussed in town

24 because there was nothing more interesting than that subject, so I did not

25 personally speak to Zoran. I couldn't reach him. But his friends and my

Page 15963

1 friends, Serbs and colleagues of mine with whom I worked on a daily basis

2 and I lived with them in the Ilijas municipality, from them I found out

3 that pressure had been exerted on Zoran Zagorcic. Threats had been issued

4 to him. Three or four times he was to go to a session of the municipal

5 counsel, to vote on that decision. As the only doctor of the Serbian

6 people, Zoran was against that decision. He didn't vote at the very

7 beginning. Soon after, the decision was taken on joining Ilijas

8 municipality to SAO Romanija. Zoran Zagorcic left Ilijas; He left Bosnia

9 Herzegovina. I think he went to live in Serbia. I don't know whether he

10 live there is now, though.

11 Q. Now, Witness, in your statement - this is paragraph 28 - you

12 referred to the takeover of the police station and you say that weapons

13 were taken away from non-Serb policemen, who were forbidden to come to

14 work. What is the source of your information about the takeover of the

15 police station?

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted) I don't know what sort of session we are in. He provided me with

19 that information. Because after the multiparty elections, the posts in the

20 police were divided. The commander of the police was a Bosniak, a Muslim,

21 whereas the chief of the police was a Serb. So after this decision had

22 been voted, after the Serbian police in the municipality of Ilijas had been

23 formed, all other policemen, the Bosniaks, the Muslims, and the Croats,

24 they were told that they should accept the SAO and they should work in the

25 Serbian police, and those who did not accept this had to surrender their

Page 15964

1 weapons and leave the police station.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, for your own information --

3 A. I obtained this information --

4 Q. Yes. Please finish what you were saying, Witness. You obtained

5 this information ...?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, the witness expressed some concern as

7 to the source and mentioning names. I take it that at the same time he

8 gave some information of which I thought it should be redacted; I gave

9 instructions to do that. At the same time, I'd like you to keep in mind

10 whenever a witness expresses such concerns, that you take the necessary

11 initiative to see that the witness does not testify in open session a

12 matter without further discussion if he has some hesitation to do so.

13 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, Your Honour.

14 Q. Witness, we are in open session. If there is any information

15 which you wish to provide which you would prefer to provide in private

16 session, please let us know, and then we can go -- I can request that we go

17 into private session.

18 I'll -- I'll move on to a separate topic, Witness, and that is

19 the fuel warehouses. Now, in --

20 MR. GAYNOR: I'll refer Your Honours to paragraphs 29 and 31.

21 Q. Now, I just want to clarify the location of these fuel

22 warehouses. You refer to a JNA fuel warehouse. Where in Ilijas

23 municipality was the JNA fuel warehouse located?

24 A. [No interpretation]

25 MR. GAYNOR: It appears we're not receiving interpretation, Your

Page 15965

1 Honour.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One belonged to the Zagreb

3 industry of oil in Podlugovi. This was a state warehouse. And the other

4 warehouse of the former JNA in Misoca. And those were the stocks of fuel

5 that belonged to the army, to the Yugoslav People's Army. After the

6 establishment and after the passing of the decision by the Serbian

7 Autonomous Region in Ilijas on the establishment of the Serbian police, the

8 Crisis Staff of Ilijas, headed by the then-president of the Municipality of

9 Ilijas and the president of the Crisis Staff, Ratko Adzic, who was also the

10 president of the Serbian Democratic Party of Ilijas, made a decision on

11 taking both of these warehouses.

12 Let me explain what I mean by the taking of the INA warehouse.

13 The INA warehouse was a civilian and a state warehouse. The workers who

14 worked there who were non-Serbs, Muslims, and Croats were told that they

15 could no longer work for that company and that they should go home. This

16 warehouse was thus taken by the members of the Serbian police from Ilijas,

17 who from then on controlled the movements through that warehouse. They put

18 their inscriptions and marks on that warehouse, so as you walked through

19 the streets, you could see that their -- this was a Serbian warehouse with

20 the Serbian police in it.

21 As for the commodities that had been stored there, it was the

22 Crisis Staff that had taken over that role, the Crisis Staff headed by

23 Ratko Adzic. Every morning when we -- when I came to work, day in, day out

24 I would feel -- I would see lorries with Belgrade, Nis, and Zrenjanin

25 registration plates that drove off fuel from the barracks to Misoca.

Page 15966

1 Q. Now, Witness, I just want to clarify the locations, and correct

2 me if I'm wrong, but is it right that the JNA fuel facility was in Misoca

3 and the INA fuel facility was in Podlugovi?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. In the answer you gave a moment ago, you stated that it was a

6 decision of the Crisis Staff -- it was a decision of Ratko Adzic to take

7 over both of those warehouses. What is it that makes you conclude that it

8 was a decision of Ratko Adzic to take over both of those warehouses?

9 A. I've concluded that because at that time Ratko Adzic was the most

10 important figure in the municipality of Ilijas. He was the president of

11 the municipality. He was the president of the Crisis Staff. He was the

12 president of the Serbian Democratic Party. He had a reputation, and he

13 enjoyed authority amongst his men who came to him and listened to his

14 orders and obeyed his orders. I never saw a document to that effect;

15 however, I assume that he was the only one who could have passed that

16 decision.

17 I believe that as far as the distribution of fuel from the

18 barracks is concerned, I believe that this was done in agreement with the

19 military bodies. They just went into the barracks freely; they left the

20 barracks freely. They would drive the fuel off. Nobody prevented them

21 from doing that. Only they could do that; it could not be done by any

22 other civilians.

23 Q. I'm going to move now to another topic. This is at paragraph 32.

24 In paragraph 32, you referred to the takeover of the SDK, and

25 you say that following the takeover, taxes were paid to the SAO Romanija

Page 15967

1 instead of to the State of Bosnia and Herzegovina. How did you become

2 aware of that?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreter please ask the

4 Prosecutor to switch their microphone off.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is only logical. If the Crisis

6 Staff, headed by Ratko Adzic, in agreement or on the order of the higher

7 bodies of the SDS issued a political decision, such a political decision to

8 be implemented in practice has to be funded. It is in this way that they

9 took over the SDK. This is where all the taxes were being paid on behalf

10 of the SAO Romanija. And they also took over the two commercial banks, the

11 Privredna Bank and the Belgrade Bank that operated in Ilijas and where

12 people banked in Ilijas. Based on this information, everybody could

13 conclude that anybody who came to the SDK to pay any bills, that these

14 bills were paid into their account. That is something that was not

15 difficult to conclude. Ilijas is a very small town; it is not a big city.

16 At that time, people communicated normally; they cooperated. I had friends

17 amongst the Serbs, the Croats, and the Muslims, and in conversations with

18 them I would obtain information, and those were just normal conversations.

19 At that time, a lot of big things happened in Ilijas --


21 Q. Witness, I'd just like to interrupt briefly, Witness. Did you

22 personally deal with the SDK, either on your own behalf or on behalf of the

23 municipality?

24 A. As a citizen, on my own behalf.

25 Q. Did you bank at Privredna Bank yourself?

Page 15968












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Page 15969

1 A. Yes. I banked with Privredna Banka, with its Ilijas branch

2 office.

3 Q. Now, in paragraph 33 of your statement, you say that -- you

4 suggest that non-Serbs could not cash a cheque at a bank. Now, did you

5 personally attempt to cash any cheques at the Privredna Bank?

6 A. Let me put it this way: We have to put this into a somewhat

7 broader perspective. The CEO of the Privredna Banka at the time was Ratko

8 Karcoca [phoen]. He was also a member of the Crisis Staff, which had been

9 established by Ratko Adzic. In that Crisis Staff, the members were all the

10 people who occupied prominent positions. Ratko received orders from Ratko

11 Adzic. There was a Serbian policeman standing in front of the bank, and

12 the only people who could withdraw their salaries from the bank were the

13 Serbs. The Croats and the Muslims could stand in queues, but they could

14 never get in. It so happened that I had a lot of cheques. I did not have

15 to go to the bank; I could use my cheques to pay for the services in shops

16 or at petrol stations. However, on one or two occasions, I was not able to

17 withdraw my salary from the bank.

18 Q. Could you just briefly explain who was preventing you from

19 withdrawing your salary from the bank.

20 A. We were not allowed to enter the bank physically by the Serbian

21 policemen who were standing in front of the bank. That's the physical act.

22 And the decision that was issued and the order that was given to the bank

23 probably came from the Crisis Staff, to the effect that only certain people

24 could withdraw money from the bank; only the Serbs. We were physically

25 prevented by the policemen, who would take your ID and who would tell you,

Page 15970

1 You will not be able to withdraw any money today; you can turn around and

2 go back.

3 Q. Witness, just moving back to the SDK. Do you know who the

4 director of the Ilijas branch of SDK was?

5 A. The director of the branch office in Ilijas was Veljko Kravljaca

6 of the SDK, and the director of the Privredna Banka in Ilijas was Ratko

7 Karcoca.

8 Q. Now, you said that Mr. Karcoca was a member of the Ilijas Crisis

9 Staff. Do you know whether the director of the SDK was also a member of

10 the Crisis Staff?

11 A. Yes. Yes, he was. I said all the prominent people in the

12 municipality who occupied important positions -- for example, the chief of

13 MUP, the deputy commander of the Territorial Defence, the secretary of the

14 Municipal Assembly, the director of the SDK, the directors of the banks and

15 all the CEOs of Serb ethnicity in companies who could have contributed

16 towards the implementation of the policies that were in place, the policies

17 that were against the Muslims.

18 Q. I'm moving, now, to paragraph 38. I'd like you to clarify a

19 reference you have, Witness, and I'll read out the relevant sentence. You

20 said, "When the Serb police exclusively occupied the police station in

21 Ilijas, they issued an order for Muslims, Croats, and others could no

22 longer work in the police force, in National Defence, in the TO

23 headquarters, in the health centre in Ilijas, and in the employment

24 bureau."

25 There are two issues I'd like you to clarify in relation to

Page 15971

1 that. The suggestion in that sentence is that the police issued an order

2 that non-Serbs could not work in the TO, the health centre, and the

3 employment bureau. Is that, in fact, what you intended to say?

4 A. No, not really. What I wanted to say is this: For every

5 position -- for example, in the police, if a decision of the Crisis Staff

6 was to be implemented, the chief of the police was in charge. In the

7 health centre, it was the director of the health centre who was in charge.

8 He was also a Serb. In the employment bureau, I don't know who it was, but

9 I only know that no Bosniaks could work there any longer. There was a

10 blanket order covering all the institutions that was implemented by the

11 heads of the institutions. I can't say that it was the police who issued

12 those orders. The police only carried out the orders issued by the Crisis

13 Staff to a certain extent.

14 Q. In that same sentence I read out a minute ago, there's a

15 reference to the National Defence and the TO headquarters. Now, when you

16 said "National Defence," did you, in fact, mean to say "Territorial

17 Defence"?

18 A. In the former Socialist system, the organisation of work was the

19 following: There was a Secretariat for National Defence, which kept

20 various records, the records of material, technical equipment, and

21 recruits. On the other hand, there was the Territorial Defence and its

22 staff; this was the body that managed the material and equipment that

23 belonged to the reserve forces. In both of these bodies, Muslims could no

24 longer work there because both institutions were directly linked to the

25 military formations. In the Territorial Defence, the person in charge of

Page 15972

1 the depot, who was a Croat, had a close shave. He barely survived when

2 they decided to remove him from his job, when they decided to remove him

3 from being in charge of the military depot.

4 Q. Witness, I'm going to move on to another issue. In paragraph 39

5 at -- on the second line on page 8 of the statement - that's in English -

6 Witness, you refer -- you're referring to the period May 1992, and you say

7 that you still had TV, radio, and telephone and had word of takeovers

8 across the country.

9 First of all, which radio station did you -- was serving the

10 municipality of Ilijas?

11 A. Ilijas is in the place where we could receive all radio and TV

12 stations. We also had our local radio, the Radio of Ilijas. When the

13 Serbian Municipality of Ilijas, it became the Serbian Radio of Ilijas. We

14 received a local information, the information that was relative to the work

15 and life in Ilijas, from our own local radio, which was the radio of

16 Ilijas.

17 Q. Now, prior to the takeover of Radio Ilijas, were any non-Serbs

18 employed by Radio Ilijas?

19 A. Yes. There was a lady; she was in charge of music or something

20 like that. However, when this became the Serbian Radio of Ilijas, this

21 lady was fired and she no longer came to work. I suppose that her lot was

22 the same as the lot of the workers in the health centre, in the police, in

23 the employment bureau.

24 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like you to tell us: Do you know who the

25 director of Radio Ilijas was?

Page 15973

1 A. The director of that radio station was Vlado Markanovic.

2 Interestingly enough, when Radio Ilijas became the Serbian Radio of Ilijas,

3 the music it played, the news it aired changed to suit the needs of the

4 Serbian Democratic Party. I knew Vlado very well. He put up a certain

5 degree of resistance to those radical changes and to the emphasis of all

6 things national on Radio Ilijas, on -- to the propaganda in the media.

7 Vlado Markanovic, unfortunately, did not stay long at the radio after that.

8 I'm not going to say that he was fired. I only know that he left the radio

9 station, he left the town of Ilijas, and I think he went to Novi Sad. And

10 as far as I know, he is still there; he still resides there.

11 Q. Witness, who succeeded Vlado Markanovic as director of Serbian

12 Radio Ilijas?

13 A. While Vlado Markanovic was director, he had his, so to say,

14 portparole. That was the man who was the portparole of the Crisis Staff

15 and the SDS. He was Mirko Ostojic. I don't know whether he was director

16 of Radio Ilijas, but it was his voice that we heard most often. He was the

17 one who provided us with information, instructions. He was the one who

18 emphasised the national content of Radio Ilijas. That's why I'm saying

19 that he was the spokesman for the radio.

20 Q. Witness, in an earlier --

21 MR. JOSSE: Sorry to interrupt, Your Honour. I saw the witness

22 was looking at some document.


24 MR. JOSSE: I don't think it was his statement. Could we

25 perhaps inquire what it is, please.

Page 15974

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness 031, could I ask you: We just saw

2 you on the screen having a document in your hands. Was that your

3 statement?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have my statement before me, and

5 I also have the transcripts that I used to prepare myself. And if you want

6 to know, I also have excerpts from the book that was written after the end

7 of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Its author is Mr. Veljo Adzic

8 [phoen].

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I invite you to put aside everything

10 apart from your statement. And if there's any need to consult any of the

11 other documents you have in front of you, please ask permission to do so.

12 And may I ask you: Have you consulted these other documents

13 during the testimony you are giving?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You should be aware of the fact

15 that during the war I had a work obligation. I was not a member of the

16 army. I was in charge of keeping the record of the situation that

17 prevailed in Ilijas. And --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- this record that I kept -- yes.

20 I'm listening.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to interrupt you. Whatever information

22 you have, the Chamber wants to know exactly when you answer questions with

23 consulting documents or without consulting documents. You are expected to

24 answer the question without consulting any documents unless you

25 specifically ask permission for that. Could you please answer the question

Page 15975

1 I just put to you, is that whether until now you have consulted any of

2 these documents, apart from your own statement given to the OTP.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the statement that I gave to

4 the OTP.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would feel any need to consult any of

6 the other documents that are not in front of you anymore at this moment,

7 could you please address me and ask permission to do so.

8 You may proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

9 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness, a couple of minutes ago, in relation to the answer which

11 you gave about Serb Radio Ilijas, you referred to propaganda and you said

12 that the radio station was being used to serve SDS needs. Now, could you

13 give us a few examples of the kind of messages which you heard on Serb

14 Radio Ilijas, which you would consider to -- to be propaganda.

15 A. Let me put it this way: Radio Ilijas was a well-known radio

16 station for its musical content. The first change that we could notice was

17 in the musical content of that radio station. All of a sudden we could

18 hear songs that belonged to the national body of the Serbian people.

19 Secondly, the information that came from Mirko Ostojic were

20 nationalistic and filled with tensions. When I say that, I mean he would

21 say, If there was an attack against Ilijas by the extremists, Islamic

22 extremists, the Green Berets, the HOS, and so on and so forth. On Radio

23 Ilijas, you could hear nothing but this charge that was in the air that

24 prepared the Serbian people for something that would happen later. It was

25 preparing the Serbs to all root for that one Serbian cause.

Page 15976

1 The information that we heard on the Serbian Radio Ilijas was

2 also the topical information; for example, whether there was water,

3 electricity, whether the phones were working, what the situation in the

4 town was like. Very often Radio Ilijas also had conferences that were held

5 between the neighbouring municipalities, the Breza municipality, the

6 municipality of Ilijas, and the heads of the municipalities often spoke

7 about different things, and Radio Ilijas very often reported from these

8 conferences that took place in Ilijas.

9 Q. Can you give us a few examples of how the Serbs -- sorry, I'll

10 restate that -- how the Muslims and Croats were referred to on Serb Radio

11 Ilijas.

12 A. Muslim extremists and Croatian HOS members, HOS members.

13 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I'd request that we go into private

14 session for a couple of questions.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15977











11 Pages 15977-15982 redacted. Private session.















Page 15983

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

10 Witness, we are close to a break. But before we have a break,

11 and after the break, you'll be cross-examined by counsel for the Defence,

12 I'd like to ask one question to you in relation to the mosques. You said

13 there were three mosques. Could you be a bit more precise on where these

14 mosques were located in Ilijas.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. One of the

16 mosques was in Stari Ilijas. It was called the "town mosque" because in

17 the very centre of Ilijas, there were no mosques. This was the main,

18 central mosque for Ilijas, and it was located in Stari Ilijas.

19 The second mosque was in Srednje, which is a small place. It's

20 smaller than the town of Ilijas. So as I have said, it was in Srednje.

21 And the third mosque was located in Srna Rijeka.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If I would mention a mosque in Misoca, could you

23 relate that to any of the mosques you just mentioned?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the mosque in Misoca, at the

25 very beginning of the attack on Misoca, it was destroyed; perhaps I forgot

Page 15984

1 to mention it. But it had more or less the same religious importance as

2 all the other mosques that I have mentioned. It was really in the centre

3 of the area of combat, and it was razed to the ground.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any knowledge whether this was a

5 result of normal combat activity or whether this was the result of a

6 specific attack on that building as a religious building?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think the building was

8 destroyed for the same reason that all other religious Islamic buildings

9 were destroyed; it had no strategic importance for the army. That wasn't

10 why it was destroyed. It was destroyed for the simple reason that it was a

11 religious building.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were the buildings surrounding the mosque in

13 Misoca, were they also destroyed?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything was destroyed. As far

15 as Misoca is concerned, the place was entirely destroyed. Not a single

16 building, not a single house remained intact. And I'm referring to Misoca.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you whether any of the religious

18 buildings you earlier mentioned was located in Bioca.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There was a mesdzid in -- in

20 Bioca, which was also destroyed.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If I would mention a mosque in Ilijas without

22 any further specification, could you relate that to any of the mosques you

23 have mentioned before?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And which one would that be? Could you give a

Page 15985

1 further -- of course, I do understand that all the mosques you mentioned

2 were in the municipality of Ilijas. But if I would just say "mosque in

3 Ilijas," which one would you think of, or would you think -- could you not

4 ...?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd only think of the mosque in

6 Stari Ilijas because in the new part of the town of Ilijas there was no

7 mosque. That part of the population, the population from the new part of

8 Ilijas, used the mosque located in Stari Ilijas.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for those answers.

10 We'll have a break now until five minutes past 11.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.


13 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 031, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr.

15 Josse, representing the accused.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Josse:

17 Q. Witness, firstly, let me say this. If there's any question that

18 I ask you that requires the Tribunal or the Chamber to go into private

19 session, just say, please. Do you understand?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I'd like to ask you about the book that you were looking at in

22 the course of the questions that you were asked by prosecuting counsel.

23 You say it was a book by someone called Veljko Adzic; is that right?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. And what's the book called, please?

Page 15986

1 A. The book is called "Isijas Nemanijici."

2 Q. And what does it deal with, in broad terms?

3 A. The book was written after the end of the war. Veljko Adzic

4 wrote it. He's a relative of Ratko Adzic; he was close to him. The book

5 is about the situation in the territory of Ilijas municipality before the

6 free elections, after the free elections, and it is about the appointment

7 of the Crisis Staff, about the decision on proclaiming the existence of the

8 SAO Romanija, and it is also about the liberation, in inverted commas, of

9 villages and inhabited places by the Serbian army.

10 In the second part of the book, reference is made to military

11 formations about the composition of the Serbian Ilijas Brigade. It deals

12 with Serbian combatants who were killed, who were cited. The book was

13 approved of by the commanders of the Serbian Ilijas brigade.

14 Q. Now, Witness, I can understand you having read the book, but why

15 did you feel it necessary to take it with you into the room where you're

16 giving evidence?

17 A. Well, I analysed my transcripts and information on the book and

18 information in the book -- information that is in the book and in my

19 transcripts, information that I have. All this information tallies, as far

20 as the dates are concerned. In order to be aware of how the other side

21 thinks, it's necessary to read books written by someone from the other

22 side.

23 Q. Why, for the purpose of your evidence, do you need to understand

24 how the other side thinks?

25 A. Well, I understand how the other side thinks. I've understood

Page 15987

1 this from the very beginning, so it's not really necessary for me to remind

2 myself of this. The information concerned is purely technical. It

3 concerns the first and last names of individuals and dates and nothing

4 else.

5 Q. So why actually have the book physically with you at the point

6 you're giving evidence?

7 A. Well, I usually carry this book with me, and I study it, and I

8 think about it. I think about what the writer wanted to say.

9 Q. You mentioned a few moments ago your transcripts. What are you

10 referring to?

11 A. I don't understand your question.

12 Q. Well, you said, and I quote, "I analysed my transcripts and

13 information on the book and information the book -- information that is in

14 the book and in my transcripts, information that I have." So in the

15 sentence that I've just quoted to you, you twice talk about "my

16 transcripts". Are you referring to your witness statement, or are you

17 referring to some other document?

18 A. My statement as a witness is also my transcript -- the

19 transcripts that I made, that I wrote for a number of years. I could not

20 bring them here because there are a lot of papers, a lot of information.

21 Some of this information I keep in my head; some of the information I put

22 on paper. I don't know whether I have provided you with a precise enough

23 answer to your question.

24 Q. You have. The last question, I think, on this topic: What

25 actually did you bring into the room with you this morning in Sarajevo? In

Page 15988












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15989

1 other words, which documents? We know you've got the book by Mr. Adzic.

2 We know you've got your witness statement there. Anything else?

3 A. I have my diary with me.

4 Q. That's your personal diary?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. And that's your diary from 1992, is it?

7 A. No. That is a diary that has nothing to do with any particular

8 year. These are just my notes, my reminders, the things that I wrote to

9 remind myself of some things.

10 Q. All right. Thank you. I'm going to move on to a different

11 topic.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would have one question, additional

13 question in this respect. Witness 031 when you gave your statement in

14 1997, had you at that time already read the book you just mentioned by --

15 of which the author is Mr. Adzic?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not get hold of the book

19 at the time.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


23 Q. The next subject I want to ask you about is the lead-up to the

24 war in Ilijas. Now, is it right that after war had broken out in Croatia

25 in the summer of 1991, the Bosniaks in Ilijas began to arm themselves

Page 15990

1 secretly?

2 A. I am not aware of that. I don't know where the Bosniaks could

3 have obtained arms from. They could only have purchased arms from the

4 Serbs, through private channels. Things like that happened because the

5 Serbs had been issued with weapons free of charge; whereas, the Muslims, on

6 the other hand, if they wanted to obtain weapons, they had to purchase

7 weapons. There were such Serbs who had a surplus of weapons, I suppose,

8 and decided to sell the surplus. During that period of time, none of the

9 sides in Bosnia and Herzegovina were well off. Nobody had too much money.

10 So that people who had the needs to purchase weapons did that individually

11 through their own private channels; whereas, the Serbs were issued with

12 weapons collectively by the Serbian Democratic Party or with the help of

13 the Serbian Democratic Party.

14 Q. Witness, you began the answer to the question I've just asked you

15 by saying, "I am not aware of that," and you've then gone on to describe

16 ways in which Muslims may have obtained arms. Do you have any knowledge at

17 all of Muslims arming themselves in 1991 after the outbreak of the Croatian

18 war?

19 A. Sir, your question was whether the Muslims did that. I don't

20 know -- or actually, I know that they did not have the funds to be armed on

21 a large scale. What I spoke about were some individual cases, some

22 sporadic cases when you compare them to the Serbian people who had obtained

23 weapons from the former JNA with the help of the SDS. There's no

24 comparison between the two cases.

25 Q. Well, I wasn't seeking to make any comparisons. I was simply

Page 15991

1 asking a -- a question about arms.

2 And let me ask you another question: Have you heard of the

3 Patriotic League?

4 A. Of course I did. On TV, in the media. I read in the newspapers.

5 Just like I did about the Serbian Democratic Party and the armed forces of

6 the Serb people.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'd like to instruct you in the following

8 way: When you were asked about whether you know anything about Bosniaks

9 arming themselves, you tend to compare that with other situations. I'd

10 like to instruct you to answer the questions. If there would be any need

11 to know how Serbs did arm themselves - and the Chamber has heard quite some

12 evidence on that - you'll certainly be asked about it, and then you may

13 address that matter. But it's not up to you to constantly make that

14 comparison. So please answer the questions of Mr. Josse.

15 And, Mr. Josse, when you asked the witness whether he knew about

16 the Bosniaks arming themselves, the witness correctly made a distinction

17 between collective arming and individual arming, and that's how the Chamber

18 understood his answer. Please proceed.


20 Q. For the avoidance of any doubt, Witness, I'm asking you about

21 arming in the Ilijas municipality. I've already said at the -- in 1991.

22 I've asked you about the Patriotic League. By the same token, you've

23 obviously heard of the Green Berets, haven't you?

24 A. I have to go back to my previous answer. Sir, I never heard of

25 the Green Berets and the Patriotic League in Ilijas. I did hear of the

Page 15992

1 Patriotic League and the Green Berets in the city of Sarajevo. At that

2 time, the municipality of Ilijas had already been blocked. There were

3 barricades around it; there were armed guards around it. In my view, no

4 contact whatsoever was possible with those people.

5 Q. Okay. Let me move on to 1992. As far as you were concerned, how

6 did hostilities begin in the Ilijas municipality in 1992?

7 A. This is a direct question; I'll provide you with a direct answer.

8 In my view and according to my information, the conflict in Ilijas was

9 caused by the Serbian forces. They had attempted an attack across Ilijas,

10 or rather, Odzak, towards the municipality of Breza. They intended to take

11 the coal mine there. According to my information, during that attack, with

12 the help of the village guards and later on the police in Breza, this

13 attack was successfully repelled. After that, the Serbian armed forces in

14 the municipality of Ilijas started launching attacks against non-Serbian

15 population in various settled areas.

16 Q. When do you say that initial Serb attack took place?

17 A. I'm not sure of the date or the period of time, but I believe

18 that this was in May, maybe at the beginning of May. In any case, before

19 the massacre.

20 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not hear the place of

21 the massacre.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Witness --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm listening.

24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I would like to ask whether Mr.

25 Josse is going to ask a question, whether he's going to seek clarification

Page 15993

1 as to what he meant when he said "the Serb forces." The witness said,

2 "[In English] In my view and according to my information, the conflict in

3 Ilijas was caused by the Serbian forces." I would like the witness to

4 clarify what he meant by "the Serb forces." What was the reference being

5 made there?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time -- at that time, the

7 Crisis Staff of the municipality of Ilijas had the Serb police, and it also

8 had some voluntary forces which were deployed in villages to keep village

9 guards. They were well armed, they wore camouflage uniforms, and they used

10 military vehicles, some of them. Some of the members of the volunteers

11 wore camouflage uniforms; whereas, some others wore the uniforms of the

12 former JNA.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.


15 Q. I want to suggest that you're right, that fighting broke out in

16 early May of 1992. I want to suggest that on the 3rd of May of that year

17 it was Muslim forces that attacked Serb forces in Ilijas from Visoko and

18 Breza; isn't that right?

19 A. That is your opinion that I cannot subscribe to, and I believe

20 that you are not right.

21 Q. And as a result of the fighting, I want to suggest that Serbian

22 refugees arrived in May of 1992 in Ilijas. Do you have any recollection of

23 that?

24 A. Yes. Serb refugees did come to Ilijas from the municipalities

25 that you mentioned; that is correct. However, those people had been

Page 15994

1 ordered by the Serbian Democratic Party to abandon those places, that there

2 was no way to defend them because they were a minority in those

3 municipalities, just like the Muslims and Croats were in Ilijas. And it is

4 true that the Serbs from the municipalities that you mentioned abandoned

5 their villages, but they were not expelled from their villages.

6 Just for your information, let me tell you this: After a

7 decision of the SAO Romanija was issued, the municipality of Ilijas and its

8 marginal areas, Visoko, Breza, and Vares, where the majority of the

9 population was Serb population, were forcefully merged with the Serbian

10 Municipality of Ilijas. In other words, the suburbs of Ilijas were

11 forcibly merged with the Serbian Municipality of Ilijas without the prior

12 consent of any other municipalities in the area.

13 Q. Witness, I'm not going to spend too long dealing with the

14 demographics of the area before the war, but it's right, isn't it, that in

15 Ilijas, as your statement makes clear, there was just a -- well, Serbs were

16 just the most numerous ethnic group within the municipality, followed very

17 closely by Muslims. That's correct, isn't it?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. It's also correct that the surrounding areas, the areas

20 surrounding the municipality, were, as you've just told us, predominantly

21 Muslim.

22 A. Are you referring to the municipality of Ilijas?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Partly yes, but partly no. Not only Muslims lived in the

25 peripheral parts of the municipality of Ilijas.

Page 15995

1 Q. The refugees that arrived in May of 1992, can you put any figure

2 on how many there were?

3 A. Are you referring to the refugees that I received in Breza?

4 Q. I'm talking about the Serbian refugees who arrived in Ilijas in

5 May of 1992. You -- you hadn't gone to Breza by that time, had you?

6 A. Sir, I was not in Ilijas at the time. I did not reside in the

7 urban part of Ilijas. I was on the periphery. There were very few Muslims

8 in Ilijas at the time, and hardly anybody can tell you how many Serbs, how

9 many Serb refugees there were in Ilijas. And although they were in Ilijas,

10 they did not have a good receipt there; they were not well received there.

11 Q. Now, I could ask you various questions about what happened

12 thereafter in the municipality - that's in June - but as you've told us,

13 you left in early June to go to Breza, didn't you?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. And were you aware the activities of Muslim forces in Breza

16 preparing for further attacks on Ilijas?

17 A. No. There was no way for me to know that.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]


20 Q. And did you follow the progress of the war in Ilijas from Breza?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And it may be an obvious question, but how did you do that?

23 Through the media, firsthand reports from people who were fighting? Tell

24 us how you found out what was going on.

25 A. This is how I followed it: All the civilians that had been

Page 15996

1 expelled from the villages and the urban part of Ilijas I received as

2 refugees, as displaced persons. Initially, I provided them with initial

3 aid. I helped them find accommodation, I helped them seek medical

4 attention, and, also, I talked to them.

5 In addition to that, of course, Radio Ilijas worked; the state

6 television of Bosnia-Herzegovina worked; the state radio of Bosnia-

7 Herzegovina worked. The Serbian television called SRNA was also

8 operational. The media of Bosnia and Herzegovina, each and every one in

9 their own way, conveyed information.

10 Q. I'll put one specific thing to you: At paragraph 44 of your

11 witness statement, you referred to a Serb policeman called Radenko

12 Markovic. Do you know what happened to Mr. Markovic?

13 A. Just a moment. Let me find that.

14 Q. Of course.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, would you like to -- when he says, "Just

16 a moment. Let me find that," do you want him to consult any ...?

17 MR. JOSSE: I'm happy for him to read paragraph 44, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Oh he's -- yes, he's finding the paragraph.

19 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Sorry. I thought he was trying to find the answer.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was looking for this passage,

22 number 44, Your Honour.

23 Markovic was in Ljesevo, and he did provide a guarantee the way

24 it's described here. But on the 5th of June he was also there. I'm sure

25 that you have this book, "The Nemanjici of Ilijas." There Veljko Adzic

Page 15997

1 wrote that he had been killed that afternoon. It is from this book that I

2 learned he was killed. I personally know him, and I know for a fact that

3 he was in Ljesevo on the 5th of June.


5 Q. My instructions are that he was, in fact, killed in late June of

6 1992 in, we think - and again, excuse my pronunciation - a place called

7 Misoca.

8 A. I don't have that information. There was no way for me to know

9 that.

10 Q. Perhaps I can just deal with it like this: You've told us you

11 knew Radenko Markovic before the war; is that right?

12 A. Yes, only superficially.

13 Q. Yes. And you haven't seen him since, have you?

14 A. Not personally, actually.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. No, I didn't. No.

17 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, it might be best to go into private

18 session next. I want to ask about a topic -- I've discussed with Mr.

19 Gaynor, and we thought it best that we should ask the witness if it's a

20 matter of sensitivity.

21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15998











11 Pages 15998-16005 redacted. Private session.















Page 16006

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24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you may proceed.

Page 16007

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajisnik:

2 Q. [Interpretation] I would like to greet the witness.

3 A. Thank you.

4 Q. Could you please just tell me when the third session was held at

5 which the Serbian Autonomous Region of Romanija was proclaimed -- or

6 rather, when did Ilijas become part of that region? Can you remember?

7 A. That is contained in my statement.

8 Q. But could you please answer the question and provide us with a

9 date.

10 A. Well, if you want the precise date ...

11 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I don't exactly know what the point

12 of this question is. The evidence is before the Chamber.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm just trying to find it.

14 MR. GAYNOR: It's in paragraph 24, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Paragraph 24.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think I put a simple question to

17 the witness. He ought to know the date.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, whether he ought to know is a different

19 matter, but you can ask him the question, and 24 does not give an answer to

20 the question, Mr. Gaynor. It gives an answer to the question when a

21 request was submitted. And the question was not when the request was

22 submitted but when Ilijas joined, and that's not exactly the same, is it?

23 MR. GAYNOR: Yeah, I -- I accept your point, Your Honour.


25 Witness, could you tell us when Ilijas joined the -- decided to

Page 16008

1 join the Serbian Autonomous Region of Romanija.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ilijas wanted to join the Romanija

3 SAO from the very beginning. The Serbian Democratic Party was organised in

4 such a way to have a government in the SAO, and in my testimony, I said

5 this was on the 24th of December, 1991, at a session of the council. So I

6 don't know what else I could add.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was - because in your

9 statement, it becomes clear that not at the first vote that the request was

10 accepted - were those votes on the same day or on the 24th of December, or

11 were the second and third round on later dates?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was later. It wasn't all on

13 the same day.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a seven-to-ten-day

16 period between these two events.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And when finally was the decision adopted that

18 Ilijas would become part of the Serbian Autonomous Region?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it says the 24th of

20 December, 1991, in my statement.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, your statement - and I'll read that to you -

22 is "So SDS deputies, headed by Ratko Adzic, submitted a request at the

23 Assembly session on December 24th, 1991, to include the municipality of

24 Ilijas into the so-called SAO Romanija."

25 If you say that finally this decision was adopted at another

Page 16009

1 session, then it could not be on the 24th of December. So again I ask you

2 whether you remember when, finally, the decision was adopted.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the final decision

4 was adopted on the 24th of December, 1991. Perhaps there was a

5 mistranslation -- or I wouldn't say "mistranslation," but the idea had been

6 mentioned earlier on. And on the 24th of December, this decision was

7 adopted.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand.

9 Mr. Krajisnik, please proceed.

10 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

11 Q. In the course of your testimony, you said that the police force

12 was divided. Could you tell us when this happened -- or rather, when was

13 the Serbian police in Ilijas established after that date?

14 A. Sir, I didn't say that the police force divided -- became

15 divided. I said that it was restructured. The term "the Serbian police of

16 Ilijas" was added -- the term "Serbian" was added, but the other members of

17 the police, the Bosniaks and the Croats, stopped going to work; they did

18 not continue to work in the police station. So this is quite different.

19 You are trying to say that the Muslims had their police force. As far as I

20 am aware, they did not have their own police force. But perhaps you have

21 information according to which they did have such a force.

22 Q. I didn't think that they had their own police force. All I

23 wanted to know was the date.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, it takes some time until the

25 translation reaches us, so would you please make a pause.

Page 16010

1 Please proceed.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. We both speak the same

3 language, although some call it the Bosnian language and others the Serbian

4 language.

5 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So if I continue immediately, it doesn't mean that I have any

7 doubts about your answers.

8 All I'm interested in is when this decision was taken. So after

9 the 24th, when Ilijas joined the SAO, when was the police transformed into

10 the Serbian police, as you put it?

11 If you could pause briefly, and then answer the question.

12 A. Has it been interpreted?

13 Q. Yes. Please go ahead.

14 A. Thank you. As you put it, we do speak the same language, so we

15 can understand each other immediately. You know that after the decision

16 was taken to form the Romanija SAO, all the institutions in all the

17 municipalities, not only in Ilijas - there's also the municipality of Han

18 Pijesak, et cetera - they were all given the prefix "Serbian" and soon

19 afterwards - I don't know the exact date - a lot of time has passed since

20 then, so I can't provide you with the exact date. That date did not

21 concern me directly, so I can't tell you the exact date - but after the

22 political decision was taken on the organisation of Ilijas municipality,

23 after that point in time, all the other institutions were organised at this

24 level and this way. They were given a "Serbian" prefix. They became

25 Serbian institutions, and things then unfolded in the way that they

Page 16011

1 unfolded.

2 Q. Could one say that it was in January or perhaps a little earlier?

3 You don't have to be very precise.

4 A. I'll just wait for the interpretation to finish. I think it was

5 fairly soon afterwards, maybe in February or March.

6 Q. This is the second answer. If you say "soon afterwards," could

7 you be more precise. When was the police force transformed?

8 A. From the 24th of December onwards. The month.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, would you please put your next

10 question to the witness. This matter, as far as the date is concerned, has

11 been dealt with.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To

13 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

14 (redacted)

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Page 16012

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Page 16013











11 Pages 16013-16024 redacted. Private session.















Page 16025

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8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE ORIE: I should have done that before.

10 MR. STEWART: I'd just like to say, well, thank you for that,

11 Your Honour. The -- the practical matter is I feel that Mr. Josse and I

12 would simply like to make sure we have ample opportunity over this break to

13 --


15 MR. STEWART: -- to make whatever inquiries -- which may not take

16 very long at all, of course.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll have a break, anyhow, for half an hour

18 because that's the time needed to get the courtroom in the normal order

19 again. If, during the next half an hour, you would fail to receive the

20 information you would need or if one of you would fail to receive the

21 information you would need under those circumstances, please inform the

22 Chamber so that we can see how we can accommodate your needs.

23 MR. STEWART: Well, thank you very much, Your Honour. It seems

24 doubtful that more than that half-an-hour break will be needed, anyway.

25 But thank you for that, and we will keep everybody informed, if necessary.

Page 16026

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor.

2 MR. GAYNOR: Just a minor procedural matter. Not necessarily

3 now. But I'd request that the two exhibits be moved into evidence.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They are -- I heard no objections.

5 Therefore, they are admitted into evidence.

6 We'll have a break now until 20 minutes past 1.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 12.49 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 1.24 p.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, I hope, Mr. Stewart, Mr. Josse, that

10 whatever information you could get is not any more alarming than the

11 general information that reaches us.

12 MR. STEWART: No. In fact, from our entirely personal point of

13 view, Your Honour, we're -- we're happy to have established that everybody

14 concerned --


16 MR. STEWART: -- is safe. It doesn't help anybody else. We

17 understand that. But at least we're here.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hope also that this caused the Chamber

19 again to wait not just one or two minutes but even more before we could

20 start. And I am aware that now and then those in this courtroom have to

21 wait for the Chamber, but the balance seems to go now the other way, which

22 should not be, for the future, the rule.

23 Then are you -- we now turn into closed session for the

24 continuation of the examination of Witness 666.

25 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, and the Prosecution --

Page 16027


2 [Closed session]

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16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Friday, the 8th day of

18 July, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.