Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16039

  1                            Friday, 8 July 2005

  2                            [Open session]

  3                            [The accused entered court]

  4                            --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

  5              JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

  6              Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

  7              THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

  8   IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

  9              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 10              If there's no procedural issue to be raised, I'd like to turn

 11   into closed session again in order to continue the cross-examination of

 12   Witness 666.  We'll turn into closed session.

 13                            [Closed session]

 14  (redacted)

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Page 16040











11    Pages 16040-16089 redacted. Closed session.















Page 16090

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 23                            [Open session]

 24              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Margetts, unless you would object to that, I

 25   would first like to ask Madam Registrar to deal with the exhibits that have

Page 16091

  1   been presented to Witness 666 and then have them -- and then to determine

  2   whether they are admitted, yes or no.  And if there's any remaining issue,

  3   then you may address us.

  4              MR. MARGETTS:  Yes, Your Honour.  With one preliminary matter --

  5              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

  6              MR. MARGETTS: -- and that is that the video of the funeral was

  7   not shown in court, but a still from that video was.  And secondly, a

  8   transcript of a speech given at that -- at the time of that funeral was. 

  9   So what we wish to do was to actually have the video footage presented as

 10   part of Exhibit 17, even though it was not presented to the witness.  When

 11   I -- when I say "17", it's not exhibit 17 but it's --

 12              JUDGE ORIE:  No, it's number 17 on the exhibit list presented in

 13   relation to Witness 666.

 14              Mr. Stewart, would there be any ...?

 15              MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour, a reasonable question would be,

 16   Why?  After all, it seems but a waste of time. If -- I wouldn't have

 17   checked if the Prosecution indicate what possible point was to be got out

 18   of this video in addition to all the evidence that's been given.

 19              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Margetts.

 20              MR. STEWART:  If there is a point, then all right.  But it's a

 21   bit mysterious what it is.

 22              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Margetts, what would the video add to what is

 23   on paper?

 24              MR. MARGETTS:  Your Honour, the video will depict where the

 25   individual depicted in the still was standing at the time that the still

Page 16092

  1   had been made and will give context to that exhibit.  The video will depict

  2   a relevant issue raised in the Defence's examination of the number of

  3   people present, the nature of the people present at the funeral.  The video

  4   also will depict not only the words spoken by Radovan Karadzic but to who

  5   he spoke those words and the atmosphere at the time he spoke those words,

  6   which was also another subject of the witness's evidence.

  7              And furthermore, just from a practical point of view, we would

  8   be putting it in as a contextual document.  Otherwise, it just wouldn't be

  9   convenient if the video footage itself was separated from the still and the

 10   transcript that have been introduced.

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, any --

 12                   MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour, well, the still was a

 13   different occasion altogether, so that's not really nothing to do with it. 

 14   It's impossible to understand what the practical inconveniences of

 15   separating the video footage from the evidence.  One just doesn't put the

 16   video footage in.  But the really important point is this:  It appears that

 17   some point will be made about the -- by the Prosecution in relation to the

 18   physical location of individuals on this occasion.  Your Honour, that

 19   should have been introduced in evidence when the witness was giving his

 20   evidence in chief because if there is any point at all of any relevance of

 21   at arising from the video, then it was clearly a matter which should have

 22   been open to cross-examination when the witness was here.

 23              So there are two courses now:  Forget the video, because the

 24   evidence is there as it stands; or let's see the video played, and let's

 25   bring the witness back, then, for any further cross-examination required in

Page 16093

  1   relation to that matter.  But it must be one or other of those.

  2              MR. MARGETTS:  Your Honour, the evidence that the witness has

  3   given in relation to the funeral, we do not think will be added to by him

  4   viewing the video.  However, the circumstances of the funeral, the capacity

  5   of Your Honours to assess the evidence that has been given by the witness

  6   will be added to by the video, and we reiterate that to have this separated

  7   from the other exhibits, which are derived from the video, would be an

  8   unnecessary creation of separate exhibit number and unnecessary

  9   administrative difficulties.  I am certain that the video itself is a piece

 10   of evidence that is relevant to this proceeding, and for that very reason -

 11   - on many occasions there was reference to what took place at this funeral

 12   throughout the witness's evidence, but there would be no need to bring him

 13   back to make any further comment than the comments he has already made.

 14              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Margetts, I may take it that the video was

 15   disclosed to the Defence well in time?

 16              MR. MARGETTS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Yes.

 17              MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, that's not the point though.  I --

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 19              MR. STEWART:  Sorry.  I beg your pardon.

 20              JUDGE ORIE:  It was my question.  The question of fact.  Whether

 21   it's a point or not, I just wanted to satisfy myself whether this video was

 22   in the hands of the Defence at a due time.

 23              Let me just consult with my colleagues.

 24                            [Trial Chamber confers]

 25              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is there anything more to be said in this

Page 16094

  1   respect?  We heard from the Defence; we heard from the Prosecution.

  2              MR. STEWART:  Yes, Your Honour, there is.

  3              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

  4              MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, please understand, Your Honour, I

  5   wasn't contradicting or intending to undermine in any way Your Honour's

  6   factual inquiry.

  7              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

  8              MR. STEWART:  I was simply trying to develop it.  That doesn't -

  9   - the point goes beyond that.  It's this:  Your Honour, this video was not

 10   -- was not introduced in evidence.  It was supplied to the Defence.  But we

 11   -- if the Prosecution do not put something in evidence, then we decide in

 12   the light of their not putting it in evidence not to use it.  But they are

 13   now after the witness has left court seeking to put this in evidence for

 14   some extra purpose, and it -- it therefore must -- it's -- it must be

 15   adding to the evidence because if it doesn't add to the evidence, there's

 16   no possible reason for it to go in.  So they are seeking to add to the

 17   evidence after the witness has left court.  The evidence that the

 18   Prosecution put in is evidence on which I must be entitled to cross-

 19   examine.  So that is -- it's the same choice, Your Honour, I indicated a

 20   moment ago:  It either stays out, or if they are going to show it, we

 21   should all see it now and the witness should see it -- not necessarily for

 22   him to add a comment in chief.  That's in the Prosecution's hands whether

 23   they invite him to add any comment.  But for me then to ask him any

 24   questions in cross-examination that arise out of that.  Because up until

 25   the point when the witness left court, this video had not been put in

Page 16095

  1   evidence and exhibit numbers certainly -- Your Honour, the idea that

  2   exhibit numbering overrides the proper decisions on what evidence should or

  3   shouldn't be admitted is pretty far-fetched.

  4              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

  5                            [Trial Chamber confers]

  6              JUDGE ORIE:  The video will be admitted into evidence.  It

  7   allows the Chamber to verify some of the answers given by the witness, also

  8   some of the answers given in cross-examination.  At least, the Chamber

  9   expects that the video could insist in that respect.

 10              Any further issue in respect of this, Mr. Margetts?

 11              MR. MARGETTS:  No, Your Honour.

 12              JUDGE ORIE:  Then Madam Registrar --

 13              MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, when does the Trial Chamber view such

 14   a video?

 15              JUDGE ORIE:  The Trial Chamber will view this video in its

 16   chambers, and to the extent it becomes relevant, the Chamber will find a

 17   way of informing the public about this piece of evidence being admitted and

 18   about the content of it because that's one of the requirements for a public

 19   trial.

 20              MR. STEWART:  Well, that -- that would have to be linked in

 21   then, wouldn't it, Your Honour, with respect, with the fact that the whole

 22   of this witness's evidence has been dealt with in closed session.

 23              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do agree with you.  I'd forgotten about

 24   protective measures; although, it may well be that this video is not in

 25   need of admission under seal.  But we'll have a look at that first, and

Page 16096

  1   we'll -- there's no need to admit it under seal?

  2              MR. MARGETTS:  No, Your Honour.  This is not admitted under

  3   seal.

  4              JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll find a way to make this an exhibit

  5   accessible to the public.

  6                             [Trial Chamber confers]

  7              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Krajisnik, I do understand that you'd like to

  8   address the Chamber.  Please do so.

  9              THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask for the

 10   Prosecution, if possible, to give me that tape so that I can take a look at

 11   it.

 12               JUDGE ORIE:  I take it -- yes, whether that's for the

 13   Prosecution, or whether you should look at the video as it has been

 14   provided to the Defence.  I would avoid that everything has to be provided

 15   double, but it's for sure, Mr. Krajisnik, that you should have an

 16   opportunity to look at the tape.  As a matter of fact, not only after

 17   today, but since it has been disclosed to the Defence, it was accessible

 18   already, and as you know, the Chamber does not interfere with the internal

 19   communication of the Defence.  But certainly if you ask Mr. Stewart, he'll

 20   certainly give you an opportunity to look at the -- I don't know whether

 21   it's on a CD or whether it's on a tape.  But you'll find a way to look at

 22   it.

 23              I take it, Mr. Stewart, that this is ...?

 24              MR. STEWART:  Well, yes, Your Honour.  The -- the reason I

 25   didn't -- the same thought was going through my mind as Mr. Krajisnik's,

Page 16097

  1   which I'm happy to say does occasionally happen.  But the same question had

  2   gone on in my mind:  I didn't ask it simply because it's a matter that I

  3   had in mind I would clear up with Mr. Krajisnik just to find out from a

  4   practical point of view whether he had viewed the video.  Because Your

  5   Honour is quite right; the internal arrangements come into it.  But Your

  6   Honour, I must emphasise once again the practical reality of this case is

  7   such that -- the supposed theoretical smooth-running of the matters so that

  8   all these matters can be viewed by everybody in time to deal with the

  9   witnesses: this Trial Chamber has made that smooth process impossible for

 10   us by the schedule adopted.

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, may I just interrupt you.  How much

 12   time does the video take?

 13              MR. MARGETTS:  Your Honour, it's approximately -- there's two

 14   segments.  One of approximately 30 seconds and a second segment of

 15   approximately three and a half minutes.

 16              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, the witness is -- let me turn first

 17   into private session.

 18                            [Private session]

 19  (redacted)

 20  (redacted)

 21  (redacted)

 22  (redacted)

 23  (redacted)

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 25  (redacted)

Page 16098

  1  (redacted)

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  3  (redacted)

  4  (redacted)

  5                            [Open session]

  6                            [Videotape played]

  7              JUDGE ORIE:  The video being played, would there be any need to

  8   put further questions to the witness, Mr. Stewart?

  9              MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, all I would like to do - and it's why

 10   I've asked Mr. Karganovic to come back into court for the moment - I would

 11   like to just very quickly confer with Mr. Krajisnik and then see, but I

 12   expect that to take one minute, probably.

 13              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Take that one minute.

 14              MR. STEWART:  Thank you.

 15                            [Defence counsel and accused confer]

 16                            [Trial Chamber confers]

 17              JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart.

 18              MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, there's absolutely no problem, and we

 19   -- well, we don't know what the Prosecution seek to get out of that, but we

 20   have no request to bring the witness back and no further comment or

 21   question to make in -- in relation to that video.

 22              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  Well, what the Prosecution did

 23   seek was already explained by Mr. Margetts.  There's no need for repetition

 24   to that.

 25              Madam Registrar, could we then assign an exhibit number to this

Page 16099

  1   in relation to the transcript of the text spoken on this video.

  2              THE REGISTRAR:  The video will be Prosecution Exhibit 877, and

  3   the transcript will be P877A, which is found at tab 17 of the binder.

  4              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you then, please, give us the numbers

  5   of the documents that have been tendered into evidence until now and tell

  6   us what should be under seal.

  7              THE REGISTRAR:  P866, under seal.  P867, under seal.  P868,

  8   under seal.  P869, under seal.  P870, under seal.  P871.  P872.  P873,

  9   under seal.  P874.  P875.  P876, under seal.  P877 and P877A.  And P880.

 10              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 11              Since I hear no objections, these exhibits are admitted into

 12   evidence.

 13              Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

 14              MR. TIEGER:  I --

 15              JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.  Perhaps you would like add something.

 16              MR. MARGETTS:  Yes, Your Honour.  There -- the documents that

 17   appear in the presentation binder at tabs 8, 9, 10, and 14 are submitted by

 18   the Prosecution as contextual documents in regard to this particular area

 19   of the Prosecution case.

 20              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar, would you please assign

 21   exhibit numbers to it.  And as usual, contextual exhibits, within one week

 22   we'd like to hear about any objections, and therefore they are

 23   provisionally admitted.

 24              THE REGISTRAR:  Document --

 25              JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any need to have any of them under seal,

Page 16100

  1   or could they all --

  2              MR. MARGETTS:  No, Your Honour.

  3              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar, would you then please read

  4   the description and assign the number.

  5              THE REGISTRAR:  The document found at tab 8, P-- will be P881,

  6   order for combat activities, dated the 7th of June, 1992.

  7              P881A is the document found at tab 9, daily operative report

  8   from Birac Brigade command, dated 14 June 1992.

  9              P881B, located at tab 10, Andric request to the command of the

 10   East Bosnia Corps, dated 14 June 1992.

 11              And finally, P881C, located at tab 14, information on prisoners,

 12   dated 03 July 1992.

 13              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 14              MR. MARGETTS:  Your Honour.

 15              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Margetts.

 16              MR. MARGETTS:  Apologies.  There's one further matter in regard

 17   to these exhibits.  Your Honour noted an error in the translation of the

 18   document appearing at tab 12, which is Exhibit P874.  We have rectified

 19   that translation, and we have the corrected --

 20              JUDGE ORIE:  As a matter of fact, is this the numbering, et

 21   cetera?  I think I corrected it by hand.  Parties are invited to do the

 22   same.  And it's -- I should have told you immediately, Mr. Margetts,

 23   because that would have saved you the work and that would have saved us the

 24   paper to be copied.  I apologise for not having done it, but I have already

 25   corrected the one-and-only original version.

Page 16101

  1              MR. MARGETTS:  Yes, Your Honour.  And your correction stands in

  2   the transcript, so --

  3              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Usually if I make any correction to an

  4   original document, even if it's a translation, I always refer to the date

  5   of the transcript in which we dealt with it.

  6              MR. MARGETTS:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

  7              There is one further matter, and that is that the Prosecution

  8   has noted that there was some ambiguity in one of the words utilised in

  9   Exhibits P881 and P881A, and we have rectified the translation, and we'll

 10   distribute those.  They are contextual documents.

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you'd please take care that they'll be

 12   distributed and that ...

 13              Mr. Usher, could you please assist.

 14              Mr. Tieger, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

 15              MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Ms. Richterova will be leading

 16   the next witness.

 17              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 18              MR. TIEGER:  However, as long as we are engaged in the process

 19   of assigning exhibit numbers, I wanted to raise one --

 20              JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

 21              MR. TIEGER: -- very brief matter in connection with an issue

 22   that arose during the cross-examination of Witness 165.

 23              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 24              MR. TIEGER:  And the discussion concerning how those issues

 25   could be clarified and whether any documents should be tendered into

Page 16102

  1   evidence in connection with it.

  2              I have spoken with Ms. Loukas about that.  The parties agree

  3   that the indictment and judgement of Mr. Vuckovic should be tendered into

  4   evidence, and I have those with me now.

  5              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll ask Madam Registrar to assign

  6   exhibit numbers to them, as well.  That's in relation to Witness 165.

  7              Yes, Madam Registrar, I think you were not -- I think no numbers

  8   have yet been assigned.

  9              MR. TIEGER:  I don't believe so, Your Honour.

 10              JUDGE ORIE:  So they're two new exhibits.  Would they be

 11   Prosecution exhibits or Defence exhibits or ...?

 12              MR. TIEGER:  We'll undertake the burden.

 13              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 14                            [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 15              JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar will -- if you'd please give them

 16   to Madam Registrar.  Then ...

 17              MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, it's --

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  And I think it should be -- I mean, the witness was

 19   -- there's --

 20              MR. TIEGER:  My recollection is there were protective measures

 21   in place and --

 22              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But in view of the character of these

 23   documents, I don't think that there would be any need to tender them under

 24   seal.

 25              MR. TIEGER:  I shouldn't think so, Your Honour.

Page 16103

  1              JUDGE ORIE:  No.

  2              MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, if it's helpful for the Court's

  3   scheduling, I note that we would require approximately three to five

  4   minutes to distribute documents to the booth before actually beginning the

  5   examination of the next witness.

  6              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you'd start with it immediately, then we

  7   could start with the witness in five minutes from now.  Meanwhile --

  8              MR. TIEGER:  That's what I was told.

  9              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And meanwhile, we are still about to

 10   distribute the other documents, and Madam Registrar will assign the exhibit

 11   numbers to the exhibits related to 165.

 12                            [Prosecution counsel confer]

 13              MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, could I just add this?

 14              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 15              MR. JOSSE:  If I have a moment to speak to --

 16              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 17              MR. JOSSE: -- Ms. Richterova, it might save a little bit of

 18   time.

 19              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 20              MR. JOSSE:  So during those five minute, I'll endeavour to do

 21   that.

 22              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, wouldn't it be the best that we resume

 23   after five minutes.

 24                            --- Break taken at 12.11 p.m.

 25                           --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

Page 16104

  1              JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, numbers still to be assigned to

  2   the contextual exhibits?  No, we have done that.  We have done that.  Yes.

  3              Then we have -- no, numbers to be assigned to the two additional

  4   exhibits in relation to Witness 165.

  5              THE REGISTRAR:  The indictment dated 28 April 1994 will be

  6   Prosecution Exhibit P882.  The registry has only received the English

  7   translation of the document.

  8              The document entitled "In the name of the people," ERN number

  9   00477911, will be P883.1, and the original will be P883.

 10              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, I think that the Defence used only the

 11   English version of the indictment.  I don't know whether you used the

 12   indictment, but at least some of the documents.  Is there any need to also

 13   have the original in B/C/S in evidence?

 14              MR. STEWART:  There's no need to have it in evidence, Your

 15   Honour.

 16              JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 17              MR. STEWART:  It's available to us.

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 19              MR. STEWART:  I suppose if we need to look at it with Mr.

 20   Krajisnik.

 21              JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 22              MR. TIEGER:  And our thanks to Mr. Stewart.

 23              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And Madam Registrar, that means that no

 24   original is required for P882.

 25              Then are you ready, Ms. Richterova, to call your next witness?

Page 16105

  1              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Yes, Your Honour, I'm ready.

  2              JUDGE ORIE:  May the witness be brought into the courtroom --

  3   yes.

  4              MR. JOSSE:  Can I just say, Your Honour, that I've said Ms.

  5   Richterova can lead this witness in her entirety.  There may come a point

  6   where I'll object to that, in which case I'll get up and make it clear.

  7              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

  8              MR. JOSSE:  But at the moment I don't object to any leading

  9   questions.

 10              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Josse.

 11              I noticed that this morning's session will end after another 65

 12   minutes of examination time because we need another break in view of the

 13   tapes.  It's up to the parties whether they think they could manage to

 14   finish the examination of this witness this morning.  Otherwise, we'll

 15   continue at 3.00 this afternoon.

 16                            [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 17                            [The witness entered court]

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  Good day, Ms. Malesevic, if I'm well informed. 

 19   Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence

 20   require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the

 21   whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  May I invite you to make that

 22   solemn declaration, of which the text is now handed out to you by the

 23   usher.

 24              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 25   speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 16106

  1              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.  Ms. Malesevic, please be

  2   seated.

  3                            WITNESS:  MELIKA MALESEVIC

  4                            [Witness answered through interpreter]

  5              JUDGE ORIE:  You'll first be examined by Ms. Richterova, counsel

  6   for the Prosecution.

  7              Ms. Richterova, you may proceed.

  8                            Examined by Ms. Richterova:

  9        Q.   Good afternoon, Mrs. Malesevic.  I will ask you a few questions

 10   about your background, or better say I will read the background information

 11   and at the end if you could confirm whether our informations are correct.

 12              You were born on 15 of September, 1949, in Jajce.  You attended

 13   a secondary technical school in Jajce.  You started studying Faculty of

 14   Economy of their university, of the Banja Luka University; however, you

 15   finished only two years of your study.  And after that, you started working

 16   in the field of economy as a bookkeeper, head of bookkeeping department,

 17   and until the war started, you were head of export department of one

 18   company in Jajce; is it correct? 

 19        A.   Yes.  Let me just clarify.  I was at the construction company

 20   involved in the export of those services.  We did construction work abroad,

 21   so I was involved in that. 

 22        Q.   In October 1992, after Jajce was taken over by VRS soldiers, you

 23   went to Travnik and then further to Kresevo.  And from 19 June 1993 until

 24   22nd of March, 1994, you were in camp in Kresevo, and this camp was run by

 25   Croatian authority; is it correct? 

Page 16107

  1        A.   It is.

  2        Q.   After you were released from the camp, you went first to Visoko

  3   and then you went to Sarajevo.  And in 1995, you were involved in the work

  4   of Committee for Women, which was a humanitarian organisation; is it

  5   correct? 

  6        A.   Yes.

  7        Q.   And from 25 of August, 1996, you were a secretary of the Bosnian

  8   National Alliance of Associations for Former Camp Inmates; is it correct? 

  9        A.   Yes.

 10        Q.   And you worked in this association or in this alliance as a

 11   secretary. 

 12        A.   Yes.

 13        Q.   Can you very briefly tell us what were your duties as a secretary

 14   in this alliance. 

 15        A.   Yes.  Let me start at the beginning.  I participated in the

 16   setting-up of the association of former camp inmates of Bosnia-Herzegovina. 

 17   Initially we had quite a few problems.  We had to organise the association

 18   on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to get the data as soon

 19   as possible, the number of former inmates, the places where they were held,

 20   et cetera.

 21        Q.   I think you speak probably too quickly for the interpreters.  But

 22   before we will continue, may I ask you, and, in fact, it was supposed to be

 23   my first question:  This alliance, what was the main object of work of this

 24   alliance? 

 25        A.   The main aims and priorities of the work of the alliance was

Page 16108

  1   gathering information about the places of imprisonment and the number of

  2   inmates that were held in those camps between 1992 and 1995.

  3        Q.   Is it correct that before the alliance was set up, there were

  4   other associations of camp inmates? 

  5        A.   Yes.  And upon their initiative, in order to pool all the

  6   documents, we decided to set up the alliance in order to have it all in one

  7   place.  It followed the initiative of the other associations that had been

  8   set up prior to the setting-up of the alliance.

  9        Q.   And is it correct that the prime goal was - and I think you

 10   already mentioned it - to have a complete evidence of detention facilities

 11   on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina? 

 12        A.   Yes, that was the main aim of the setting-up of the alliance.

 13        Q.   And is it correct that you collected information not only on

 14   detention facilities which were run by the Serbian authorities but also run

 15   by Bosnian and Croat -- Croatian authorities? 

 16        A.   Yes.  We gathered all information, no matter whose control those

 17   facilities were under.

 18              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Your Honour, I've -- I'm not quite sure whether

 19   now is the time for the break or whether the break ...

 20              JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'll leave it a bit up to you.  We should

 21   have a break, a break of 20 minutes, which should start anything from now

 22   until ten minutes from now.  So if this would be a suitable moment, we'd

 23   have a break now.  Otherwise, if you'd like to put a few more questions to

 24   the witness.

 25              MS. RICHTEROVA:  I will put a few more questions.

Page 16109

  1              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But not later than 20 to 1.00, please.

  2              MS. RICHTEROVA:  At this moment, I would like to show the

  3   witness an exhibit, which is called "inmates dossier".  We have -- we have

  4   it in English and original language.

  5              JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

  6              MS. RICHTEROVA:  It should be in the package under tab number 2

  7   -- oh, I'm sorry, we do not have it.  It should be under the witness

  8   statement in the dossier.  Can we ...?

  9              JUDGE ORIE:  The inmate's dossier, it is ERN number, last three

 10   digits, 692 and following; is that correct?

 11              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.

 12              JUDGE ORIE:  Up to and including 820 in the -- no, that's the

 13   B/C/S version.

 14              MS. RICHTEROVA:  The B/C/S --

 15              JUDGE ORIE:  I think it goes until 705 in the English

 16   translation and then original B/C/S, last three digits, 808 until 820.

 17              MS. RICHTEROVA:  That's exactly right.

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 19              Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?

 20              THE REGISTRAR:  P884.

 21              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 22              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 23        Q.   When you started working on creation of this complete evidence or

 24   list of all detention facilities, is it right that you interviewed people

 25   who claimed that they were detained in any of these detention facilities? 

Page 16110

  1        A.   Yes, we did talk to them, but the forms we used in the past were

  2   not altogether transparent, so to say, and that has led to a need for a

  3   more comprehensive and a more exhaustive kind of form in order for us to be

  4   able to ascertain data properly.

  5        Q.   And the -- the -- if you say that more exhaustive kind of form,

  6   is this form which is in front of you the kind of form you are referring

  7   to? 

  8        A.   It is.  Initially we would simply look at certificates issued by

  9   the International Red Cross Committee and the state Committee, but it

 10   proved to be insufficient because there was not sufficient data in there. 

 11   So after -- slightly longer than a year, we managed to compile a dossier of

 12   former inmates, and there are about 56 basic questions, it seems to me, and

 13   270-something sub-questions.  So we've got more 300 questions, which should

 14   be providing answers to everything that we were interested in at that

 15   particular moment in time in order to be able to have a complete picture.

 16             JUDGE ORIE:  You tend to speak very quickly.  Could I ask you to

 17   slow down; otherwise, it could not be translated.  We would not hear what

 18   you said.

 19              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

 20              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 21        Q.   I think we don't need to go into too many details regarding this

 22   form because the Judges can read it by themselves.  However, I want to

 23   mention one thing, which is, You were not collecting information only on

 24   places of detention, but also you were collecting information on the way

 25   how they were treated; is it correct? 

Page 16111

  1        A.   It is.  Apart from identifying the detention facilities where

  2   they were held, we were interested in the kind of treatment that was

  3   dispensed to them, so that we asked for detailed descriptions of the

  4   treatment, starting from food, hygiene, and so on and so forth, and what

  5   sort of abuse happened in those detention facilities. 

  6        Q.   When you mentioned what sort of abuse, did you create any special

  7   report or list which would refer only to the way how people were abused in

  8   -- in camps? 

  9        A.   Yes.  On the basis of the dossiers which identified various forms

 10   of abuse, we then compiled a kind of set of documents, which was published

 11   -- it was called the Book of Torture, and we did it on the basis of

 12   authentic statements, and we listed more than 80 various basic types of

 13   abuse without any nuances on the basis of copies we kept at our centre. 

 14        Q.   Can you -- and very briefly because we have heard lots of

 15   testimonies of witnesses who were talking about the way how they were

 16   treated in prisons or various camps.  Can you tell us just examples of

 17   these abuses, two, three, four examples, based on -- on your knowledge,

 18   based on the statements you prepared or you read. 

 19        A.   Let me just say that the type of murder or killings had 15

 20   different types, such as starvation, shooting, strangulation, et cetera. 

 21   And then we've heard of detailed accounts of rapes, strangulations,

 22   experimenting with people.  More than 80 different types of abuse are

 23   illustrated in this Book of Torture, which is based on statements of camp

 24   inmates who survived.  Their teeth were pulled out; their hands and feet

 25   were chopped off; they were forced to eat body parts, and so on and so

Page 16112

  1   forth.

  2        Q.   Mrs. Malesevic, now I would like to go back to detention

  3   facilities.  I would like to know - and it would assist the Judges to know

  4   - if a place was proclaimed a detention facility, what kind of proof you

  5   asked to be provided. 

  6        A.   Since the law in Bosnia and Herzegovina has not provided us with

  7   a definition of detention facilities, we agreed on a definition ourselves. 

  8   So basically any place which was fenced in and there were guards, armed

  9   guards there, and people were detained there unlawfully and human rights

 10   were being violated, all those places were considered as detention

 11   facilities.  And on the basis of that, we compiled the list, which we hope

 12   will be checked by the international community one day.

 13              MS. RICHTEROVA: I think this is the time for the break.

 14              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll have a break until 1.00.

 15                            --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

 16                           --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.

 17              JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Richterova, please proceed.

 18              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 19        Q.   Before the adjournment, we were talking about the way -- how you

 20   declared a certain place a detention facility.  When a person wanted to

 21   assert a status as camp prisoner, is it correct that such a person had to

 22   first contact the municipal association of camp inmates? 

 23        A.   Yes.

 24        Q.   Such a person has to provide either a certificate from the

 25   International Committee of the Red Cross or other similar body or had to

Page 16113












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13   English transcripts.













Page 16114

  1   bring two witnesses who can testify that he was in that particular camp; is

  2   it correct? 

  3        A.   It is.

  4        Q.   And after this information is provided to municipal association,

  5   they will verify the accuracy of the information and forward the file to

  6   the regional or cantonal association; is it correct? 

  7        A.   Yes. 

  8        Q.   And they will again verify all the information and finally the

  9   file will reach the national alliance association in Sarajevo; is it

 10   correct? 

 11        A.   It is.

 12        Q.   And you will again verify all the information. 

 13        A.   Yes, we would check everything once again, and then we would

 14   issue a certificate about the inmate status.

 15              MS. RICHTEROVA:  And I would like to show and tender into

 16   evidence such a certificate, and it is in -- in our dossier.

 17              JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 18              THE REGISTRAR:  The certificate will be Prosecution Exhibit

 19   P885.

 20              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 21              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 22        Q.   So can you confirm that this is the certificate which is issued

 23   by the alliance after all the information provided by a person are

 24   verified? 

 25        A.   Yes.  This is a form that we issue as a certificate that the

Page 16115

  1   person in question was indeed detained in one of those camps.

  2        Q.   And is it also correct that during your work, you personally went

  3   to the field and verified by yourself or your associates the places which

  4   were claimed to be detention facilities? 

  5        A.   Yes.  Very often, in cooperation with the municipal associations,

  6   we carried out in-the-field checks very frequently.

  7        Q.   In the alliance in Sarajevo, you created dossiers per

  8   municipalities in which you kept all the files with information provided by

  9   prisoners; is it correct? 

 10        A.   It is.  If I may explain.  We actually had a classification of

 11   camps project.  We tried to define all those places according to

 12   municipalities, cantons, and regions, and this was the reason why we

 13   decided to file documents in that way, in order to make everything more

 14   easily accessible.

 15        Q.   And, in fact, the -- the main work was done by the municipal

 16   associations because they were more familiar with the places; is it

 17   correct? 

 18        A.   Yes.  They were in direct contact with the inhabitants of the

 19   area and the people who were arrested in that area.

 20        Q.   However, they always cooperated with -- with the alliance and

 21   provided them with all the necessary information. 

 22        A.   Yes.  And all the gathered information was submitted to the

 23   alliance for further processing.

 24        Q.   Mrs. Malesevic, it is true that you are no longer an employee of

 25   the Bosnian National Alliance of Associations and that you left the

Page 16116

  1   association in 2004? 

  2        A.   Yes.

  3        Q.   Before you gave -- before you were asked to give testimony here,

  4   you had access to files in the alliance. 

  5        A.   Yes.

  6        Q.   You were able to verify certain information. 

  7        A.   Not all information, but some of it, yes.

  8              MS. RICHTEROVA:  With the permission of -- of Your Honour, I

  9   would like to go through the Schedule C of the indictment, and the reason

 10   why I was asking for permission is that I know that Mrs. Malesevic has some

 11   notes.  And as the list is quite long, I would -- I think she will need to

 12   consult her notes.

 13              JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection, Mr. Josse?

 14              MR. JOSSE:  No, Your Honour.

 15              JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed, Ms. Richterova.

 16              MS. RICHTEROVA:  If it is necessary, we have enough copies of

 17   this Schedule C, if Your Honours need it for the Defence.

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  I have not the indictment here with Schedule C on

 19   it but ...

 20              MR. JOSSE:  I have my indictment at hand, Your Honour.  Thank

 21   you.

 22              JUDGE ORIE:  If you would have a few copies of Schedule C, that

 23   would be ...

 24              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 25        Q.   Mrs. Malesevic, I would like to go through this list and ask you

Page 16117

  1   always a few questions in relation to particular municipality.  In Banja

  2   Luka, we listed nine places.  To your knowledge, are all these places,

  3   places of detention? 

  4        A.   According to our document -- documentation, the first eight

  5   places are considered places of detention.  Number 9, the Borik Stadium,

  6   was actually a collection centre in 1995.  And I would like to emphasise

  7   that under 1.1, the prison in Banja Luka is also known as the Tunjice

  8   prison. 1.3, the small camp is actually the military investigations centre. 

  9   They were all open in 1992, except for the collections centre in Borik,

 10   which was open in 1995.  The biggest camp in Banja Luka was Manjaca, where

 11   there was the largest number of people detained and passed through it.

 12        Q.   You mentioned that a camp at Borik was a collection centre.  Is

 13   it correct to state that a collection centre or collection point is just a

 14   place where people were gathered in order to be transferred to other

 15   places, so they were kept there only for a short -- for a shorter period of

 16   time? 

 17        A.   Yes.  When it comes to the Borik collections centre, I would like

 18   to say that this was the place from which people left Banja Luka.  It could

 19   be called a collections centre.  However there, is another collections

 20   centre that we will come across.  I don't know whether the collections

 21   centre could be applied to it because people were brought there by force

 22   after every -- they had been robbed, and very often people had to sign a

 23   document relinquishing all of their property to Republika Srpska.  We

 24   called this a collection centre because we did not have any other name.

 25              The Borik collection centre is the one that we do not consider a

Page 16118

  1   detention centre, and people who were there are not considered detainees;

  2   we do not have them on our records.

  3        Q.   The other municipality is Bijeljina.  We listed 15 places; to

  4   your knowledge, are they all places of detention? 

  5        A.   All the 15 places are considered detention centres, and we have

  6   documents for those; most of them were opened in 1992. 

  7        Q.   Mrs. Malesevic, I think we now -- you mentioned collection

  8   centres instead of -- and I don't know whether you used this expression,

  9   "collection centre," incorrectly or whether they are really -- oh,

 10   detention centres.  I'm sorry.  It's my fault.  You -- you count them all

 11   detention facilities. 

 12        A.   Detention facilities.  And they're all --

 13              MR. JOSSE:  May I make one observation, and it's this:  Clearly

 14   the Court wants to know which of these were open in 1992, and it may be

 15   that the witness will need to go through each municipality dealing with

 16   1992.  I mean, she just said most of them were open in 1992.  I make that

 17   observation now because otherwise I will deal with that in cross-

 18   examination, but it would probably be duplication of what needs to be done,

 19   anyway.

 20              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 21              MR. JOSSE:  If what I've said is not helpful, then I'm sorry.

 22              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps we could also approach it negatively,

 23   which were not opened, or opened only after 1992.

 24              MR. JOSSE:  I have no problem with that.

 25              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Your Honour, thank you very much.  In fact, I -

Page 16119

  1   - I meant to -- I mean to deal with -- with this issue because it's very

  2   important.

  3        Q.   In Banja Luka, were you able to find out which of these detention

  4   facilities were open later than 1992?  Oh, I'm sorry, in Bijeljina.  In

  5   Bijeljina. 

  6        A.   In Bijeljina.  Very well, then.  I made some notes of some dates. 

  7   Batkovic was open from July 1992 to June 1995; Novo Selo, 1993; Patkovaca,

  8   1994; Vanek's mill, 1993; the school S. Haso, 1993; Osman Velagic School in

  9   1993.  Those were the places that were opened after 1992 and became

 10   detention centres.

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  I have to ask you again to slow down if you give --

 12   especially if you give names and numbers.

 13              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 14              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 15        Q.   If I may, I would suggest, because it's -- I can see for -- for

 16   transcription is very difficult to catch the names.  If you always could

 17   refer rather to the number, which means -- you mentioned Patkovaca.  It's

 18   2.8.  So if you could slowly now repeat with the number of that detention

 19   facility and say that -- when it was open. 

 20        A.   I apologise.  Are you -- are you referring only to those that

 21   were opened in 1993 and later, and are these the ones that you want me to

 22   mention? 

 23        Q.   Yes.  If you could repeat it with -- with numbers assigned to

 24   these detention places. 

 25        A.   2.4, Bijeljina SUP, from June 1992 until December 1993. 

Page 16120

  1        Q.   I'm sorry, Mrs. Malesevic.  Only those who were open after 1993. 

  2        A.   2.6, Janja Field, 1993; 2.7, Novo Selo agricultural combine, May

  3   1993; 2.10, Patkovaca, in January 1994; Vanek's mill, 2.13, April 1993

  4   until December 1993; 2.14, S. Haso school from December 1993 until December

  5   1994; 2.15, Osman Velagic's house, January 1993 to December 1993.

  6        Q.   Now we have Bileca municipality.  We listed five places.  To your

  7   knowledge, were all these places detention facilities? 

  8        A.   According to our documentation, all the five places are

  9   considered places of detention. 

 10        Q.   Were they all open and operated in 1992 or were they -- some

 11   opened in 1993? 

 12        A.   According to our records, all were opened in 1992.

 13        Q.   Bosanska Krupa.  We listed six places, and again, to your

 14   knowledge, were they all places of detention? 

 15        A.   According to our information, Bosanska Krupa had five detention

 16   places.  4.3, the elementary school, we don't have any documents for that

 17   place, and we therefore did not consider it a detention place. 

 18        Q.   And is it correct that all these places were open in 1992? 

 19        A.   Yes.  According to our information, between the 21st of April and

 20   17 September 1992. 

 21        Q.   We have further Bosanski Novi, where we listed 11 places.  Did

 22   you -- did you find all of them in -- in -- are they all places of

 23   detention? 

 24        A.   First of all, I would like to say that one place of detention

 25   appears here under two different names; that's 5.5 and 5.7.  The two are

Page 16121

  1   actually one and the same place of detention.  Japra, the Japra company,

  2   according to our documents, is a collections centre; Blagaj was a detention

  3   centre where private houses were used to detain inmates, and that's why we

  4   considered it a detention centre.  All the places were opened in 1992 and

  5   closed in 1992, save for Suha Medja, which was the separation line that was

  6   in the front where the inmates were taken as work force, and they were

  7   digging trenches there, and they were kept there.  According to our

  8   documentation, this place of detention was opened in 1992 and remained a

  9   place of detention until the end of the war, and I now see the elementary

 10   school in Bosanski Novi, which was also a collection centre. 

 11        Q.   And we -- 

 12        A.   It's 5.8. 

 13        Q.   Thank you.  Bosanski Petrovac, we listed nine places.  Are they

 14   all -- were they, all these places, detention facilities? 

 15        A.   Yes, according to our records, we consider all of them detention

 16   places.

 17        Q.   And do you agree that they all were open in 1992? 

 18        A.   Yes, on the 1st of May, 1992, they were all opened and they were

 19   all active until the end of September of that same year.

 20        Q.   And do you confirm that Kamenica camp, under 6.3, is in fact in

 21   Titov Drvar but the people from Bosanski Novi -- from Bosanski Petrovac

 22   were taken there? 

 23        A.   Yes.  This is between Petrovac and Drvar, and most of the inmates

 24   came from Petrovac.

 25        Q.   Bratunac, we listed nine places.  Were they all detention

Page 16122

  1   facilities? 

  2        A.   Yes.  I would just like to say that 7.2, the football stadium in

  3   Bratunac, and 7.5, stadium, is one and the same place of deposition.  Also,

  4   7.1, Bjelovac, that was actually the place of a massacre.  People were

  5   brought there and executed there, according to our documentation.

  6        Q.   And is it correct that 7.7 and 7.8 were, in fact, open only in

  7   1995? 

  8        A.   According to our documents, on the 12th of July these detention

  9   places were opened and they were active until the 17th of July.  This is --

 10   this surrounds the time of the events in Srebrenica.  The others were

 11   opened in 1992 and closed.

 12        Q.   Now, Brcko.

 13              JUDGE ORIE:  May I just ask the witness:  You're referring to

 14   the 12th and the 17th of July.  That's 1995?

 15              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1995, yes.

 16              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 17              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 18        Q.   In Brcko, we listed 16 places.  Were they all detention places in

 19   accordance with -- with your records? 

 20        A.   Based on our documentation, I cannot confirm 8.10, the Orthodox

 21   church.

 22        Q.   And -- 

 23        A.   The other places, according to our documents, were indeed places

 24   of detention.  All these places were opened on the 1st of May, 1992, and

 25   closed during the same year.  But Luka, the barracks, and the MUP kept

Page 16123

  1   functioning until the end of the war.  Only small groups were brought to

  2   those detention places; however, they were active and we have documents to

  3   prove that.

  4        Q.   And demolished villas in Potocari, 8.16, was opened only in 1995;

  5   is it correct? 

  6        A.   In 1995, yes, correct.  That was in July 1995. 

  7        Q.   In Cajnice we have three detention -- we have three places.  To

  8   your knowledge, were they all detention facilities, and were they all open

  9   in 1992? 

 10        A.   According to our information, all the three were detention

 11   places.  They were all opened in 1992.

 12        Q.   In Celinac, we have four places; however, is it correct that 10.3

 13   and 10.4 -- I'm sorry.  We have four places.  Are they all detention

 14   facilities? 

 15        A.   In Celinac, according to our information, the first three were

 16   detention places, but the bank in Celinac under 10.4, we do not have any

 17   valid documents to prove that.  All of these places were opened in 1992.

 18        Q.   Doboj.  In Doboj, there are 30 places.  Were they all places of

 19   detention, according to your records? 

 20        A.   First of all, 11.1, the 4th of July Barracks, and the Miljackovac

 21   Barracks are one and the same place.

 22              11.28, Vinjska, we don't have documents that prove that this was

 23   a place of detention.

 24        Q.   And is it correct that 11.29 and 11.30 were opened in 1993 and

 25   all others were opened in 1992? 

Page 16124

  1        A.   According our documents, Majevac was opened between 10 of June

  2   and 10 of November, 1992, and the -- 1993.  The rest were opened in 1992.

  3              THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologies for not having heard

  4   the -- all of the information.

  5              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Usora warehouse, the central

  6   prison, was active until the end of the war.  Small groups of detainees

  7   were brought to those places.

  8              MS. RICHTEROVA:  I heard that we didn't hear something or the

  9   interpreters were not able to -- to interpret it.

 10              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When you said "according to our documents,

 11   Majevac was opened between 10th of July and 10th of November, 1992," and

 12   then you said something about 1993, but the interpreters missed what

 13   followed and your answer.

 14              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  11.30, Ozren Kersten

 15   was the place of detention, which was opened the 10th of November, 1993,

 16   and closed on the 6th of January, 1994.

 17              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 18        Q.   And was Majevac opened in 1992 or in 1993? 

 19        A.   Majevac was opened on the 10th of June, 1993.

 20        Q.   Now we can move to Donji Vakuf, in which we have 12 places.  Is

 21   it correct that -- that all were detention facilities, or did you find that

 22   some of them wouldn't be a place of detention? 

 23        A.   After the analysis, 12.1, Djurda Kuce in Donji Vakuf, we could

 24   not confirm that this was a place of detention.  The rest, according to our

 25   documentation, were detention places. 

Page 16125

  1        Q.   And is it correct that all of them were opened in 1992, apart

  2   from 12.12, which was opened only in 1995? 

  3        A.   Yes, all of these places were opened in 1992 except for number

  4   12.12, which was opened in 1995, which -- this was opened to receive

  5   inmates from Mrkonjic Grad.  They spent only several days there, and when

  6   the place was being closed, 27 out of the 28 inmates were killed.

  7        Q.   Foca.  In Foca, we have 24 places.  Did you find that some of

  8   them wouldn't be a detention facility? 

  9        A.   Yes.  First of all, we have different names for the same place. 

 10   The school centre in Srednja, 13.1, and 13.2, the secondary school, this is

 11   just one place.

 12              Also, number 13.3, Karaman's house, and 13.5, the women's camp

 13   in a private house, that is also one place.

 14              Number 13.6 -- 

 15        Q.   I'm sorry, just -- I notice you said 13.5, and you were referring

 16   to female camp in Miljevina.  Is it correct that it is 13.15? 

 17        A.   13.3, Karaman's house. 

 18        Q.   And 13.15 are the same place? 

 19        A.   13.15 is the same as 13.3.

 20              Also, according to our documentation, we cannot confirm 13.5,

 21   the restaurant across the road from the prison.  We don't have documents to

 22   prove that.  Also, we don't have documents to prove 13.16, Podedze.  I

 23   don't have any information about that place of detention. 

 24        Q.   And -- and is it correct that all other places were found in --

 25   in your records as detention facilities, and they were all opened in 1992? 

Page 16126

  1        A.   According to our information, they were all opened in 1992.

  2        Q.   Gacko.  We have six places.  Were they all detention facilities? 

  3        A.   According to our information, they were all detention facilities.

  4        Q.   You also mentioned that some work was done for you by either

  5   cantonal associations or municipal associations.  I received a list of

  6   detention facilities from the Canton Sarajevo Association of Concentration

  7   Camp inmates.  And is it correct that you cooperated and they collected all

  8   this information, which you later verified? 

  9        A.   Yes.  The Sarajevo canton belongs to the alliance of inmates of

 10   Bosnia and Herzegovina.  For certain financial reasons, they took it upon

 11   themselves to do that part of the job, to list the camps and check them. 

 12   The Sarajevo canton made a list of all the camps and forwarded this to you. 

 13   In the alliance, we don't have enough workforce to do that.

 14              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Your Honour, I would like to -- to tender these

 15   two documents.  One is dated 16 of June, 2005, and the ERN number is 0423-

 16   0146.

 17              JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?

 18              THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit P886.

 19              MS. RICHTEROVA:  The other one is dated 21st of June, 2005, and

 20   the ERN number is 0423-0146.

 21              JUDGE ORIE:  And that would be, Madam Registrar?

 22              THE REGISTRAR:  P887.

 23              MR. JOSSE:  Sorry to interrupt.  Is there a B/C/S version of

 24   this?

 25              MS. RICHTEROVA:  In fact, you can see that the -- the detention

Page 16127

  1   facilities or the places are in both languages.  One is in B/C/S, and the

  2   other one is in English.

  3              MR. JOSSE:  That's fine.  Thank you.

  4              JUDGE ORIE:  And just for the information of Mr. Krajisnik, the

  5   heading only clarifies who sent it, to whom it was sent, and that it is a

  6   list of detention facilities in Canton Sarajevo in 1992 and then splits

  7   that up in Vogosca, Pale, and Trnovo.

  8              Please proceed.

  9              MS. RICHTEROVA:  In this case, I would like to rely on this list

 10   for the municipalities Hadzici, Ilidza, Novo Sarajevo, Novi Grad, Ilijas,

 11   Vogosca, and Pale.

 12        Q.   Mrs. Malesevic, I would like to continue with the municipality of

 13   Kalinovik.  For Kalinovik, the Prosecution listed seven places.  To your

 14   knowledge, were they all places of detention and were they all open in

 15   1992? 

 16        A.   According to our information, only 18.1, the school in Ulog, we

 17   are not sure whether this was a detention camp or a collection centre.  So

 18   18.1, I cannot confirm.  As for the rest of them, we have documentation

 19   that proves that they were detention centres, and they were all opened in

 20   1992.

 21        Q.   For municipality of Kljuc, we listed seven places, and is it

 22   correct that they were all places of detention and they were all open in

 23   1992? 

 24        A.   In Kljuc, the only disputable thing is 19.7, the school in

 25   Biljani.  We don't know exactly how long the inmates were there; we know

Page 16128

  1   that it was a massacre place, where they were killed.  The rest were

  2   detention centres.  Although, the school in Biljani was intended to be a

  3   detention facility, all the people were taken there against the law, and

  4   they were all executed there.

  5              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Your Honour, I --

  6        Q.   And were they all in -- were they all open in 1992? 

  7        A.   Yes, they were all opened in 1992.

  8              MS. RICHTEROVA:  I can see the time.

  9              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We -- it's a quarter to 2.00.  Just for

 10   scheduling purposes, Ms. Richterova, could you give us any impression on

 11   how much time you'd still need from now on?

 12              MS. RICHTEROVA:  I will only finish the remaining

 13   municipalities, and there are - if I can count - there are about seven of

 14   them.

 15              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But it takes quite some time.

 16              Mr. Josse, could you give us any indication on how much time you

 17   would approximately need.

 18              MR. JOSSE:  Well, I said half an hour yesterday.  I'm going to

 19   be at least half an hour, I think nearer three-quarters of an hour.

 20              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So there's no way that we'll finish now.

 21              We'll resume at 3.00 this afternoon, and to the extent possible,

 22   we might be able to finish in one session.

 23              We'll adjourn until then.

 24                             --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.46 p.m.

 25                               --- On resuming at 3.11 p.m.

Page 16129

  1              JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber -- or rather, the Presiding Judge

  2   apologizes for the late start.

  3              MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, I should just say Your Honour will see

  4   Mr. Stewart is not here.

  5              JUDGE ORIE:  I'm informed about --

  6              MR. JOSSE:  Thank you.  Thank you.

  7              JUDGE ORIE: -- his presence nearby.

  8              MR. JOSSE:  Thank you.

  9              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 10              Ms. Richterova, would you please proceed.

 11              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 12        Q.   Mrs. Malesevic, before the adjournment, we left the municipality

 13   of Kljuc.  Another municipality is Kotor Varos, where we listed 17 places. 

 14   First, I want to say that we inadvertently added two places under 20.16 and

 15   20.17, which do not belong to the municipality of Kotor Varos but to the

 16   municipality of Celinac, and they were dealt with, which left -- which

 17   leave us with 15 places.

 18              Mrs. Malesevic, can you confirm that all these places are places

 19   -- were places of detention and they were all open in 1992? 

 20        A.   Before I answer the question, I have to say that 20.1 and 20.15

 21   was one place.  Fourteen places in Kotor Varos.  According to our records,

 22   all were open in 1992.

 23        Q.   I only want to make a small correction in the transcript.  The

 24   witness was referring to 20.1.

 25              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 16130

  1             MS. RICHTEROVA:  

  2        Q.   The other municipality is Nevesinje, where we listed six places. 

  3   And again, were all these places, places of detention and open in 1992? 

  4        A.   Well, with Konjic, we have 21, 20.  It is the camp at Boracko

  5   Lake, which belongs to Konjic, and 21.6, the basement in Kucevo [phoen]. 

  6   That belongs to the Konjic municipality.  That means places of detention in

  7   Nevesinje equals four, and we have documentation to bear that out.

  8              Oh, I apologise.  We have 21.4, the factory, and 21.5, the

  9   workshop.  That is one detention place.

 10        Q.   Thank you.  Then -- and can you confirm that they were all open

 11   in 1992? 

 12        A.   Yes, they were all open in 1992.

 13              JUDGE ORIE:  Since you are asking about 1992, could you put the

 14   same question to the witness in request of Gacko because there it was not

 15   done.

 16              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 17        Q.   Witness, if we could quickly return to the municipality of Gacko,

 18   where we listed six places of detention.  Were they all open in 1992? 

 19        A.   According to our records, yes, they were all open in 1992.

 20              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Richterova.

 21              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 22        Q.   Another municipality is Prijedor, in which we listed 58 places. 

 23   Can you confirm that, in fact, only five of them, which is police station

 24   in Prijedor, command post at Miska Glava -- I'm sorry, police station in

 25   Prijedor - that's 25.2 - command post at Miska Glava, 25.3; Omarska, 25.4;

Page 16131

  1   Keraterm, 25.5; and Trnopolje, 25.6 were detention centres.  The remaining

  2   places were just collection centres or collection points; is it correct? 

  3        A.   Yes.  When it comes to collection centres or points, there was a

  4   dilemma with us.  Yes, we did list this under collection centres; however,

  5   those collection centres lasted for several days sometimes.  The people had

  6   been collected there, and they were mistreated, abused there, basic human

  7   rights withheld.  However, the other five places were defined as places of

  8   detention.

  9        Q.   And is it correct to state that all these places were open or

 10   functional in 1992? 

 11        A.   Yes.  According to our records, they were all opened in 1992.

 12        Q.   The municipality of Rogatica: we have ten places.  Can you

 13   confirm whether, yes or no, all were places of detention? 

 14        A.   First of all, let me mention that 26.1, the secondary school in

 15   Rogatica, and 26.6, the Veljko Vlahovic school in Rogatica, is one place of

 16   detention.  Also, 26.4, the square in Rogatica, we don't have any

 17   information about that particular place of detention; whereas, all the rest

 18   were places of detention.  I beg your pardon.  26.9, the Podgoj, we have no

 19   information about that, that it was a detention centre, either. 

 20        Q.   And were they all open in 1992? 

 21        A.   According to our records, yes, they were all open in 1992.

 22        Q.   In the municipality of Rudo, we listed two places.  Were both of

 23   them in -- can you find both of them in your records? 

 24        A.   According to our records, yes, two places; the barracks and the

 25   recreational centre.

Page 16132

  1        Q.   And were they open in 1992? 

  2        A.   Yes, they were also open in 1992.

  3        Q.   In the municipality of Sanski Most, we listed 22 places.  Were

  4   they all detention centres? 

  5        A.   According to our records, this number is correct.

  6        Q.   Did you find any duplications, the same place which would be

  7   indicated under more than one place? 

  8        A.   In Sanski Most, no remarks of that kind.  It's all properly

  9   defined and done.

 10        Q.   Is it correct that 25.16, Stari Majdan, was open in 1995? 

 11        A.   Yes.  According to our records, Stari Majdan was opened only in

 12   1995, as well as the boiler room of the Sanas Hotel [phoen].  According to

 13   our records, that was opened on the 16th of September, 1995. 

 14        Q.   And it is 28.18.  And is it also correct that 28.19, Sekovci, and

 15   28.20, Trnova, were open in 1995? 

 16        A.   Yes.  Yes.  That's right.  These places were subsequently opened

 17   in 1995.

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  Then again, for the record, Ms. Richterova, where

 19   it said 25.16, it should also be 28.16, Stari Majdan.

 20              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 21        Q.   And is it correct that all the -- yes.  And is it correct that

 22   all other places were open in 1992? 

 23        A.   According to our information, the rest were opened in 1992.

 24        Q.   The municipality of Sipovo: we listed only one place.  Do you

 25   have any records for detention facilities in the Sipovo municipality? 

Page 16133

  1        A.   According to our records, Sipovo SUP is only mentioned.  Nothing

  2   else.  No other records in Sipovo.

  3        Q.   And was it open as a detention centre in 1992? 

  4        A.   Yes, according to our records, in 1992.  That's correct. 

  5        Q.   The municipality of Sokolac, there are ten places.  Were they all

  6   places of detention according to your records? 

  7        A.   According to our records, all the places were places of

  8   detention, yes, and also opened in 1992.

  9        Q.   Is it correct that the place under 30.9 is, in fact, a private

 10   house in Cavarina instead of Cavarlija? 

 11        A.   Cavarina, yes.  There's a mistake there.  Cavarina. 

 12        Q.   And in 30.6, winter road maintenance point, is it correct that

 13   this point was used in 1993? 

 14        A.   Yes, according to our records, that was used as a place of

 15   detention.

 16        Q.   In 1993?  The question was whether to your knowledge it was in

 17   1993 or 1992. 

 18        A.   According to our records, 1992. 

 19        Q.   As well as all other places mentioned under Sokolac; is it

 20   correct? 

 21        A.   Yes.

 22        Q.   In Teslic, we listed 18 places; however, at the beginning I would

 23   like to state that we inadvertently added places which belong to the

 24   municipality of Doboj, and I am talking about places under 31.12 to 31.18. 

 25   It leaves us with 11 places in the municipality of Teslic.  Were -- were

Page 16134

  1   they all places of detention? 

  2        A.   According to our records, all the places were considered places

  3   of detention, yes.

  4        Q.   Were they all open in 1992? 

  5        A.   Yes, all the places were open in 1992.

  6        Q.   And is it correct to say that 31.1 is the same as 31.8? 

  7        A.   Yes.

  8        Q.   And -- 

  9        A.   Yes, I've just noticed that myself.

 10        Q.   And that 31.3 is the same as 31.6? 

 11        A.   31.6.  Yes.

 12        Q.   And do you have in your records Mladost School, which is under

 13   31.5? 

 14        A.   Yes.

 15        Q.   And all these places were open in 1992? 

 16        A.   Yes, in 1992.

 17        Q.   In Vlasenica, we listed 17 places.  To your knowledge, were they

 18   all places of detention? 

 19        A.   According to our information, 32.5, the stadium at Vlasenica, was

 20   a collection centre.  32.7, the playground in Kasaba, was the site of an

 21   execution; that's where a massacre took place.  Otherwise, all of them were

 22   open in 1992.

 23        Q.   And this massacre which took place on a playground on -- in

 24   Kasaba, when did it take place? 

 25        A.   I have the exact date somewhere but not -- it doesn't seem to be

Page 16135

  1   here.

  2        Q.   Is it correct that it was in 1994? 

  3        A.   I didn't note the date, I'm afraid.  I just -- what I have noted

  4   is that it was an execution site.  I would have to check that out

  5   subsequently.

  6        Q.   Do you at least know whether it was after 1992? 

  7        A.   I think it was after 1992, yes.

  8        Q.   The last municipality is --

  9              JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Richterova, in Vlasenica also a Camp Luka

 10   appears; whereas, we had in Brcko Luka camp.  It's not the same, I take it?

 11              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Camp Luka.

 12              JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you could ask the witness.  We see that a

 13   camp with a similar name appears in Vlasenica, and that is a different camp

 14   from Luka Camp in Brcko?

 15              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not the same one.  No. 

 16   This is the name of a village between Srebrenica and Vlasenica.

 17              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That sufficiently clarifies my doubt.

 18              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 19        Q.   In the Zvornik municipality, there were 26 places listed.  To

 20   your knowledge, were they all places of detention? 

 21        A.   According to our information, 34.16, the stadium at Divic, was a

 22   collection centre, and also 34.24, Orahovac Karakaj, was also a collection

 23   centre.  All the rest may be considered as places of detention according to

 24   our information and records. 

 25        Q.   And were they all open in 1992? 

Page 16136

  1        A.   According to our records, they were all open in 1992.

  2        Q.   When we add up all these places, we -- we will have approximately

  3   300 detention facilities in these 34 municipalities.  When you testified

  4   last time, you stated that there were 651 registered camps, which -- and

  5   520 were under Serb control.  Do you still stand for this information? 

  6        A.   Yes, that's what I said last time.  But in the meantime, the

  7   information may have changed because we are still gathering information

  8   about places of detention, so it is possible that new places of detention

  9   might have been registered in the meantime.

 10        Q.   And, in fact, this number refers to the period -- this number 651

 11   refers to the period 1992 to 1995; is it correct? 

 12        A.   Yes.

 13              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Thank you, witness.

 14              I don't have further questions.

 15              JUDGE ORIE:  Before I give you the opportunity to cross-examine

 16   the witness, Mr. Josse, Judge Hanoteau would have a question.

 17              JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask the

 18   witness to tell me what she means by "the massacre site."  Does that mean

 19   that there were people who were held there and that they were all

 20   massacred, or what?  Or was it a site where prisoners were taken to be

 21   massacred?

 22             Thank you, madam.

 23              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I say it was an execution

 24   site, I referred to the fact that a group of people were killed there; that

 25   it was not a place where people were detained for a long time and gradually

Page 16137

  1   taken off one by one to be killed, but that, rather, they were all killed

  2   in one day, for example, all together.

  3              JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] It wasn't a place where there

  4   were people who were detained and killed, assassinated?

  5              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we don't count this as a

  6   place of detention but as a place of execution; however, we list them, as

  7   we do collection centres.

  8              JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.

  9              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Your Honour, I -- I terribly apologise.

 10              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 11              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Can I be allowed to ask one more question, just

 12   to clarify one -- one point?

 13              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's -- let's do it.

 14              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 15        Q.   When we were talking about these detention facilities, can you --

 16   can you tell us, based on your knowledge, who were people detained in these

 17   facilities?  What was the ethnicity of people who were detained there? 

 18        A.   I will say that we collect information on detainees and inmates

 19   regardless of their ethnic and religious affiliation, so it all depends on

 20   who was in control of the place of detention and who was detained there. 

 21   Unfortunately, there were camps on all three sides.  But I think that today

 22   we are only referring to camps under Serb control.

 23        Q.   And in these Serb-controlled detention facilities, are you able

 24   to -- to tell us who were -- which ethnicity were the detained people? 

 25        A.   In the places of detention under Serb control, it was non-Serbs

Page 16138












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Page 16139

  1   who were detained.  Mostly Croats and Bosniaks.  There were even small

  2   numbers of Serbs.  These were people who refused to go to the war theatre

  3   or for whatever reason, so that there were also Serbs but a small number of

  4   them.

  5        Q.   Thank you.

  6              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

  7              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would have another question, as well, Mr.

  8   Josse.  There's a lot I would ask for you, in terms of patience.

  9              The Chamber has had an opportunity, although it's not in

 10   evidence, to read a statement, a witness statement you gave in October

 11   2001.  It's a relatively short statement in which is contained a table of

 12   camps.  One of the items seems to be under whose authorities these

 13   detention camps or detention centres are held, and it mainly says "Serb

 14   authorities," with a few exceptions, in view of Omarska and in view of

 15   Keraterm, for example.  We see that the list mentions "SDS, Serb

 16   authorities."  Are these two places of detention, Omarska and Keraterm,

 17   different, in view of you, in terms of under whose control they were, where

 18   you at least give a different denomination of the controlling party or

 19   authority?

 20              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's an individual

 21   interpretation by the witness.  I think there are no differences between

 22   Omarska, Keraterm, Rasadnik [phoen], or any other camp.  They were all

 23   under the control of the Serb forces.  However, the interviewees wrote down

 24   what they thought was the case.

 25              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you are not in a position to say that

Page 16140

  1   these were different.  It's just you did write down what they said, and you

  2   did not give it any follow-up as to further inquiry into that matter.

  3              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.  We didn't go

  4   into it any further.

  5              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then a final question.  Ms. Richterova,

  6   you've asked the witness about the ethnicity of those kept in detention

  7   centres.  I didn't hear anything as to their status, in terms of military

  8   or civilian.  Was it on purpose that you didn't ask for it?  Are you

  9   informed that there's no information about it, or ...?

 10              MS. RICHTEROVA:  It was not on purpose.  It's possible that I

 11   omitted to ask this question, but nowhere I found any information on -- on

 12   this.  So if I am allowed to ask --

 13              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you're allowed to complete the examination-in-

 14   chief in this respect.

 15              MS. RICHTEROVA:  

 16        Q.   Mrs. Malesevic, when you kept the records of people who were

 17   detained, did you also pay attention to the status of these people, whether

 18   they were civilians or whether they were soldiers? 

 19        A.   Of course we paid attention to that.  A very small number of

 20   these people were arrested on a battlefield, and these are marked as such. 

 21   But the vast majority of the people were civilians, women, children, and so

 22   on.

 23        Q.   Are you able -- able to give us at least a percentage of those

 24   who were kept as soldiers?  Who were caught as soldiers? 

 25        A.   I can't tell you that at present because I don't have this

Page 16141

  1   information at hand, but I can tell you that it was a very small number.

  2              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Thank you.

  3              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Josse.

  4                             Cross-examined by Mr. Josse: 

  5        Q.   Ms. Malesevic, I'd also like to ask you about the ethnicity of

  6   your organisation.  Who funds it, first of all, please? 

  7        A.   After it was founded, nobody took over the foundation.  For one

  8   period, the government of the Federation set aside some funds which were

  9   insufficient.  As far as I know, nobody is funding it at present.  What we

 10   did was we engaged in publishing activities so as to earn something to

 11   cover our minimum expenses, and then we also have membership fees, of

 12   course.

 13        Q.   And membership fees are paid by the former inmates; is that

 14   right? 

 15        A.   Yes.  Only those who can pay.

 16        Q.   And in terms of cooperation from the different ethnic groups that

 17   make up Bosnia and Herzegovina, has there been equal cooperation from all

 18   the ethnic parties? 

 19        A.   I'm afraid I didn't understand your question.  Are you referring

 20   to the camp inmates?

 21        Q.   Let me -- yes, I am referring to the camp inmates, if that makes

 22   it clear. 

 23        A.   I can say that while I was active in the association, we did have

 24   cooperation.  We have much in common; for example, the status of inmates at

 25   the level of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  We cooperated with

Page 16142

  1   camp inmates from the Republika Srpska and camp inmates from the Croatian

  2   part, as well. 

  3        Q.   Because I was going to suggest that you don't get the cooperation

  4   from those people who live in the Republika Srpska, Serbs in particular. 

  5   What do you say to that? 

  6        A.   I can only speak of the period in which I was active.  In certain

  7   segments, for example, demands made to the government to resolve our status

  8   issues, we did have joint action.  Apart from that, the Association of Camp

  9   Inmates drew up information on human rights violations from 1992 to 1995. 

 10   This was done jointly, and it was forwarded to the ministry.  And the

 11   cooperation was, in fact, much better than expected in this respect.

 12        Q.   Because you told us that your organisation was formed as a result

 13   of there being a number of similar organisations, and the National Alliance

 14   was an umbrella group; is that right? 

 15        A.   Yes, it was at the level of the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 16   so that the information gathered at municipal level could be brought

 17   together in one place, for purposes of research and so on.

 18        Q.   Have you heard of a man called Jovocic - I'll spell that if I

 19   may:  J-o-v-i-c-i-c-h - who is the vice-president of a Serbian camp inmates

 20   group who was detained for a time in Tarcin prison? 

 21        A.   Yes, of course.  Not only have I heard of him, but I have met Mr.

 22   Jovocic personally, and we cooperated together.  What I can say, however,

 23   is that the Association of Camp Inmates of Republika Srpska has more

 24   prisoners of war than the association we represent, which represents, for

 25   the most part, civilians, and there were some small misunderstandings in

Page 16143

  1   this respect.

  2        Q.   And it is noticeable that in the statement to which the learned

  3   Judge, Judge Orie, referred you to a few moments ago, as far as I can see,

  4   the only Bosnian authority institution listed is, in fact, Tarcin prison,

  5   at page 9, being item 8, in Sarajevo; is that right? 

  6        A.   I have to say in this list of camps we have lists for 37

  7   municipalities, and there are camps here which are missing that were under

  8   Croatian control and so on, and maybe the young woman who drew up this list

  9   omitted to put in Tarcin.  But it was only for these 37 municipalities that

 10   information was requested, which is why the list looks the way it does. 

 11   But I think in this case, it was an omission.

 12        Q.   Well, I don't want to be unfair in relation to that.  In fact,

 13   we've got the two additional documents, the one that has ERN number

 14   04230148; that includes Tarcin, to be fair.  I don't know whether you've

 15   got that there. 

 16        A.   Just a moment.  This is what I was talking about a little while

 17   ago.  The colleague who was drawing up the list for the Sarajevo canton -

 18   and we were dealing with camps under Serb control, as does Annex C - I

 19   assume it was an omission.  There is, however, a list of all camps,

 20   regardless of whose control they were under, and there you can find both

 21   Tarcin and Celebici and Fikret Abdic's camps, and so on.

 22        Q.   Excuse me my ignorance.  Where were they, the two -- the last two

 23   you mentioned?  Were they -- were they in Sarajevo? 

 24        A.   Tarcin was under Bosniak control, and it is on the territory of

 25   the Sarajevo canton.  Celebici was in Konjic; it was also under Bosniak

Page 16144

  1   control.  I mentioned this for the sake of illustration. 

  2        Q.   Yes.  And I want to ask you about Sarajevo.  What information did

  3   your organisation obtain about people who were detained within Sarajevo

  4   during the course of the siege of that city? 

  5        A.   I cannot answer this question because I think that at present we

  6   do not have this information available.  The Association of Camp Inmates is

  7   a voluntary organisation.  People join it voluntarily and volunteer to make

  8   their statements about detention sites.  I have no information that there

  9   were such sites.  I am not saying they didn't exist; I am just saying that

 10   nobody came forward to tell us about them.

 11        Q.   I want to ask you specifically about -- and again, excuse me my

 12   pronunciation - I'll spell it, if need be, but I think most people in this

 13   courtroom are very familiar with this place - the Viktor Bubanj Barracks. 

 14        A.   The Viktor Bubanj Barracks, as far as I know, was a traditional

 15   type of jail.  There were Serbs detained there, also 150 Bosniaks who had

 16   been charged with crimes or had refused the mobilisation call.  I was

 17   interested in the Viktor Bubanj Barracks because of a colleague, Jovocic. 

 18   There were people of various ethnicities detained there and detained for

 19   various reasons.  That's what I know about it.

 20        Q.   And are you aware of a controversy that has arisen as to whether

 21   a plaque commemorating those who were detained there could be placed at the

 22   barracks? 

 23        A.   Yes.  Yes, I am aware of it.  But I cannot answer a question

 24   about it because in Bosnia and Herzegovina there was no law on plaques. 

 25   There is no legislation defining such places officially, and that is why

Page 16145

  1   there was a confrontation between camp inmates from the Republika Srpska

  2   and camp inmates who live in Sarajevo.  We did not want to come into

  3   conflict with the authorities.  I've told you what I knew about the Viktor

  4   Bubanj Barracks; if it is confirmed that it was a camp for Serbs, then

  5   nobody will object to their commemorating this in an appropriate way.

  6        Q.   That's very helpful, madam.  You've answered my follow-up

  7   question.  It -- when you talk about "we," you mean the organisation you

  8   represent? 

  9        A.   I am referring to the camp inmates of Bosnia and Herzegovina. 

 10        Q.   All right.

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  It's not entirely clear to me where you were

 12   referring to when you were referring to "we," Mr. Josse.  The last part of

 13   the answer of the witness was about nobody.

 14              MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, I thought I heard the word "we."  It's

 15   not on the transcript; I readily accept that.  Perhaps I should clarify the

 16   matter.  I'm anxious to.  I thought I'd move on, not to waste any more

 17   time, but I --

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's fine.

 19              MR. JOSSE:  I am anxious to clarify the matter if I will be

 20   permitted to.

 21              JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the matter is -- I have no need for

 22   clarification.  If, of course, the witness said something else, that should

 23   be checked on the tape.  But I didn't fully understand the question, as a

 24   matter of fact, what you were referring to, but the answer of the witness

 25   is such that would satisfy me as an answer.  Please proceed.

Page 16146

  1              MR. JOSSE:  Thank you.

  2        Q.   I want to ask you next about Prijedor.  If we could look at

  3   Prijedor in the list that you've got there, please, and I want to ask you

  4   in particular about 25.6.  You've told us that 25.6, as far as your records

  5   are concerned, was, in fact, a detention centre; is that right? 

  6        A.   Yes.

  7        Q.   Are you able to tell us on what information you base that? 

  8   Because I suggest you're mistaken and that place was only a collection

  9   centre. 

 10        A.   I have to repeat:  A place of detention in our view is every

 11   place where civilians were brought by force and were -- where terror was

 12   exercised over them, where they were beaten up, maltreated, and so on.  As

 13   for Trnopolje, it was active until a certain period.  And throughout those

 14   seven days, there were murders, there were rapes, beatings.

 15              THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  One murder.

 16              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people who were in Trnopolje

 17   at the time bore witness to torture.  That is what this is based on, the

 18   fact that Trnopolje is listed as a detention centre.

 19                            [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

 20              MR. JOSSE:  

 21        Q.   And presumably offhand you'd be unable to tell us how many of

 22   your members were detained at that particular place. 

 23        A.   In Trnopolje?  I can't say precisely how many of our members were

 24   there, but I think it was about 800 people. 

 25        Q.   I'd also like to deal specifically with Pale, if I may, Ms.

Page 16147

  1   Malesevic.  Again, the documents that were referred to earlier - this time

  2   it's ERN 04230146 that I'm referring to - lists detention facilities that

  3   it's suggested were in Pale in 1992.  Do you have that? 

  4        A.   With Their Honours' leave, I've already said that I myself did

  5   not prepare this document on Pale; it was my colleague, Ms. Muratcaus.  So

  6   I would beg not to have to answer this question because it wasn't I

  7   personally who made this list. 

  8        Q.   Yes.  You did say that, and I didn't appreciate that fully. 

  9   You've -- you've explained that you've left the organisation.  We see that

 10   this document is dated June of this year.  That's presumably why she

 11   prepared it; is that right? 

 12        A.   Yes.

 13        Q.   And you're -- you're therefore not able to answer any questions

 14   about Pale.  I say that because I have some very specific instructions

 15   about detention centres in Pale, but if you're not able to deal with them,

 16   there's no point, subject to anything the learned Judge says, my putting

 17   these matters to you.  It's right, you've got no knowledge about Pale; is

 18   that correct?

 19              JUDGE ORIE:  You have no personal knowledge about Pale detention

 20   facilities?

 21              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would prefer not to answer

 22   questions about Pale because I have not prepared for that.

 23              JUDGE ORIE:  So you say you might have information available to

 24   you, but it's not, I would say, actively in your memory at this moment.

 25              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.

Page 16148

  1              MR. JOSSE:  

  2        Q.   And would the same be true, madam, of Novi Grad? 

  3        A.   Yes, it's also in the Sarajevo canton.

  4        Q.   Thank you.  Two -- two or three other matters.  It's right, as

  5   you've told us -- and I don't want to dwell on this.  But you were detained

  6   by Croatian forces, Croatian civilians?  What was it?  If you don't want to

  7   say, I understand, and I will not pursue this line.  I really will

  8   understand, and I will withdraw the question. 

  9        A.   There's no reason for me not to answer.  I was arrested by the

 10   Croatian police.

 11        Q.   And detained by, effectively, police, rather than soldiers; is

 12   that right? 

 13        A.   The police, yes.  But I must add that the police arrested me in

 14   Kresevo.  After Jajce was taken over by the Serb army, I found myself in

 15   Kresevo as a refugee, and several months later the police arrested us, like

 16   the other Bosniaks, in Kresevo. 

 17        Q.   And I think you've said in your statement that initially you were

 18   detained with Serbs but that they were released before you; is that

 19   correct? 

 20        A.   Yes.  Yes.  A certain number of Serbs were captured by the

 21   Croatian police, and after some time, they were left and we were kept

 22   there.

 23        Q.   I think possibly -- I hope my last topic, Ms. Malesevic, relates

 24   to compensation.  Is the organisation, the Alliance, fighting for

 25   compensation in any way for former inmates? 

Page 16149

  1        A.   Yes, certainly.  That was one of the priorities when the Alliance

  2   of Inmates was established.  We tried to do so through the law, but it was

  3   very difficult.  And the question is still open today; it hasn't been

  4   solved.  Then we took the decision at the second congress that we held

  5   collectively to appeal for compensation, that is to say, material

  6   remuneration, and that process is ongoing.

  7        Q.   And, if you can explain this simply, who are inmates to look to

  8   for compensation? 

  9        A.   The civilian inmates who lost their jobs, lost all their

 10   property, movable and immovable, and that have suffered heavy

 11   psychophysical consequences.  They've lost their jobs, as I said, and so on

 12   and so forth.  And in Bosnia-Herzegovina, they don't have any rights, even

 13   the right to treatment, medical treatment.  So this was a way to draw

 14   attention to that whole group of people.

 15        Q.   Yes.  What I wanted to know is who was going to pay compensation

 16   to former inmates or who it's hoped will pay compensation to former

 17   inmates. 

 18        A.   To -- it was paid by the state, the entity to war -- to the POWs,

 19   but not to civilians.  So perhaps that is part of the question and my

 20   answer with respect to Jovicic, perhaps it is easier for them because they

 21   could have received some remuneration from their organisations.  But we're

 22   civilians, so there's nobody we can address this to.

 23        Q.   And that still remains the status at the moment?  The civilians

 24   don't have anyone to address their claim for compensation to? 

 25        A.   Yes.

Page 16150

  1        Q.   And is there any talk from the government of Bosnia and

  2   Herzegovina to set up some sort of compensation fund? 

  3        A.   I don't have any information of that kind.

  4                            [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

  5              MR. JOSSE:  

  6        Q.   My last matter is this:  I've noticed, unfortunately, I don't

  7   think this document has been circulated in the bundle that has been handed

  8   out, but I think we can deal with it like this.  It's right that there is

  9   something called the Rules on Establishing the Status of Camp Prisoners of

 10   Bosnia and Herzegovina, dated November of 2000?  Do you know what I'm

 11   referring to? 

 12        A.   Yes, I do.  In fact, they are rules on establishing the status of

 13   camp prisoners of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is one of the basic

 14   documents of the alliance.  It has undergone certain amendments since it

 15   was established, but it regulates the rules and regulations according to

 16   who can be a member, and so on and so forth. 

 17        Q.   And in your original statement, you also annexed - I think

 18   originally it was at tab 5 of that statement - something called Research

 19   and Documentation Centre Sarajevo, project, classification of places of

 20   imprisonment of the citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and forms of

 21   torture during the war 1992 to 1995.  Are you aware of what I'm talking

 22   about there? 

 23        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Without the text -- that was a key project of the

 24   Alliance of Inmates of Bosnia and Herzegovina, first of all on the basis of

 25   which we list all the places of detention and describe them, and we were

Page 16151

  1   going to hold an international conference after that for verification.  At

  2   the level of the state, this should be done.  We expected once it came into

  3   force or came into being -- we thought the status of inmates would be

  4   speeded up, the settlement of their status, and we discussed this from our

  5   colleagues of the RES.  They were also interested in this, and I think that

  6   the project will be completed at some point in time in the future.

  7        Q.   And the document is a very admirable setting-out of the project

  8   plan.

  9              At number 1 on the second page of the document, it says this: 

 10   "All nations and national minorities were victims of war, but the number of

 11   Bosniaks show that they have suffered a very heavy form of war crime.  That

 12   is qualified as genocide according to the international standards."

 13               Did you have any part in putting that particular sentence in

 14   the document? 

 15        A.   In a way.  Well, you caught me unawares now, but it was teamwork. 

 16   But at any case, that is how it stands.  That is what it says. 

 17        Q.   Isn't that - and correct me if I'm wrong, Ms. Malesevic, of

 18   course - exactly the type of statement that is going to effectively put

 19   Serbs off cooperating with your organisation? 

 20        A.   I'm afraid I might not have understood your question.  Can the

 21   truth divide us?  Everything we're doing, I think we're doing to draw

 22   closer together and to live together.  So I'm afraid I might have

 23   misunderstood you.  But when it comes to genocide, the word was uttered,

 24   and that was at this Tribunal, and I think that's normal.  So we have to

 25   tell the truth, regardless of who the perpetrators were, which ethnic

Page 16152

  1   group, which nation was responsible, and so on and so forth.

  2        Q.   No, you -- you didn't understand me, and I say thank you.

  3              MR. JOSSE:  I've got no further questions.

  4              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Josse.

  5              Mr. Krajisnik, would you have any additional questions?

  6              THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honours.  I

  7   have no questions for this lady.

  8              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

  9              Is there any need to re-examine the witness?

 10              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Your Honour, I have only one clarification.

 11                             Re-examined by Ms. Richterova: 

 12        Q.   Mrs. Malesevic, when the Defence counsel asked you about

 13   Trnopolje, you said, "And throughout the seven days," such-and-such things

 14   happened.  Did you really say during seven days? 

 15        A.   Yes, I did.  I think it's a mistake.  

 16        Q.   So what were you -- which period of time were you referring to? 

 17   Talking about Trnopolje. 

 18        A.   When it comes to Trnopolje, Trnopolje was active from May to

 19   December.  I haven't got any notes, though.  All this must be taken with a

 20   few reservations.  But I know from the reports I read and the witness is

 21   testifying about the crimes, the torture and abuse, that Trnopolje was

 22   truly a camp, a place of detention according to all our parameters.

 23              JUDGE ORIE:  There might be some confusion.  Let me see whether

 24   I can clarify it.

 25              When you said, "And throughout those seven days," did you have

Page 16153

  1   some specific seven days in mind, or did you want to refer to seven days a

  2   week, just as we say 24 hours a day; that means full time?

  3              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I meant the specific

  4   statement, where it said, "seven days of torture, abuse," and so on. 

  5   That's the last portion I read in preparing for my testimony.

  6              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

  7              MS. RICHTEROVA:  That's it.  Thank you.

  8                            [Trial Chamber confers]

  9              JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Canivell has one or more questions for you.

 10                            Questioned by the Court:

 11             JUDGE CANIVELL:  Thank you.

 12              I would like to make clear that when you said that places in

 13   which people were executed, you called them sites of execution, when all

 14   the persons detained there were executed or even if some of the persons

 15   retained or detained there survived, wasn't put to execution? 

 16        A.   The execution sites that we denoted as such according to witness

 17   testimony, all the people were killed.

 18              JUDGE CANIVELL:  Thank you.  Another point I would like to know: 

 19   You have taken into consideration facts like the -- some of the people that

 20   were detained in one location were later perhaps transferred to other

 21   places, and so in the way that perhaps I wondered if you would be able to

 22   make a calculation of the total amount of people that had been detained in

 23   these camps under the Serbian authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. 

 24        A.   Unfortunately, we still do not have the exact figures, but it is

 25   common knowledge that from Omarska, the camp -- the inmates were taken to

Page 16154

  1   Manjaca and 400 to Batkovici on from there.  So when we deal with all the

  2   places and all the people passing through those places of detention, we'll

  3   be able to see that they are three places and see the number of people

  4   there.

  5              JUDGE CANIVELL:  Thank you.  Another point is:  Had you been

  6   able to establish a correlation between the number of people detained in

  7   every municipality in relation with the number of Muslims living in those

  8   municipalities? 

  9        A.   I'm not sure I understood your question.  I apologise.

 10              JUDGE CANIVELL:  I mean, if you had discovered if in every

 11   municipality, every different municipality, the number of people detained

 12   was similar that other places or you found that taking into consideration

 13   the number of Muslims living in every municipality, the number of the

 14   people detained were higher or lower in one or the others. 

 15        A.   I didn't perform analysis of that kind, but the assumption is

 16   that it was proportionately the same, with respect to the total number.

 17              JUDGE CANIVELL: There's another question I would like to pose to

 18   you:  Would you be able to say that the higher number of detained people

 19   was around 1992, later on, or when? 

 20        A.   1992 was the year when there were most number of detainees. 

 21   After that, they either moved out or were moved out, but 1992 was the peak

 22   year when the largest numbers of the population were detained.

 23              JUDGE CANIVELL:  Could you -- had you been able to find

 24   differences on the ways people finished their stay in these camps?  I mean,

 25   for instance, how much people, what proportion of those people were killed,

Page 16155

  1   were released, were exchanged, were liberated?  You have had any

  2   calculation about that? 

  3        A.   I do, but not right with me here.  But I'll try and give you an

  4   illustration.

  5              JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just ask you:  I see that you're consulting

  6   a document.  Could you tell us what document you are consulting so that we

  7   know.  Are these personal notes, or is this...? 

  8        A.   May I show it?

  9                             [Trial Chamber confers]

 10              JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, no, that's clear.  It's the schedule, that has

 11   been -- Schedule C that has been presented to you.  Yes. 

 12        A.   Yes, Schedule C.

 13              What I can tell you is this:  We're talking about camps where

 14   they were killed en masse.  For example, the KP Dom in Foca.  Of the 700

 15   detainees, 322 were killed.  In Vuk Karadzic school of Bratunac, about 700

 16   detainees there and about 400 were killed, and so on.  The gunpowder

 17   warehouse, for instance.  Well, I haven't prepared myself for that, but in

 18   some places of detention, like Prijedor and Omarska, people were liquidated

 19   en masse.  Celopek is another case in point, and so on.

 20              JUDGE CANIVELL:  Were people that were put in Omarska or

 21   Trnopolje or other of those more numerous where people were detained were

 22   brought from other locations in different municipalities to be there and

 23   later on had been killed? 

 24        A.   Perhaps from the surrounding villages:  Kljuc, Sanski Most.  But

 25   otherwise, it was the local inhabitants in the case of Prijedor.  Whereas,

Page 16156

  1   Batkovici, the inmates were from all over Bosnia-Herzegovina, just like

  2   Manjaca, for instance.

  3              JUDGE CANIVELL:  Thank you very much, witness.

  4              JUDGE ORIE:  Since Judge Hanoteau has no questions for you,

  5   neither do I.

  6              I first ask the parties whether the questions of Judge Canivell

  7   have triggered any need to further --

  8              MR. JOSSE:  Not from the Defence, Your Honour.

  9              JUDGE ORIE:  Not from the Defence.

 10              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Not from the Prosecution.

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Ms. Malesevic, this concludes your testimony

 12   in this court.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and

 13   to answer the questions of the parties and the questions put to you by the

 14   Bench.  I wish you a safe trip home again.

 15              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 16              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you please escort Ms. Malesevic

 17   out of the courtroom.

 18                             [The witness withdrew]

 19              JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could we go through the exhibits.

 20              MS. RICHTEROVA:  Your Honour.

 21              JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Richterova, no statement has been tendered of

 22   the witness, although it's on the list, isn't it?

 23              MS. RICHTEROVA:  I'm just -- I would like to tender this

 24   statement dated 15 and 16 of October 2001.

 25              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, this is a bit late.  So the

Page 16157

  1   Defence only now, although they could have known that, Ms. Richterova, had

  2   them on the list of potential exhibits.  But in cross-examination they

  3   could have refrained from certain questions because they thought that the

  4   statement was not in evidence.  Therefore, I specifically ask whether

  5   there's any objection.

  6              MR. JOSSE:  Can I have one moment, please?

  7              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

  8                             [Defence counsel confer]

  9                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 10              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 11              MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, I'm glad to say Mr. Stewart and I are

 12   of the same mind, which is this:  I have no objection in relation to this

 13   particular witness.

 14              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 15              MR. JOSSE:  The -- these statements, bearing in mind their

 16   contents, do not bother us, and we're happy for the Trial Chamber to have

 17   them.  But this is no concession that in other circumstances our stance

 18   wouldn't be completely different.

 19              JUDGE ORIE:  I think I already explained to Ms. Richterova that

 20   this is procedural -- not the proper course of action.

 21              MS. RICHTEROVA:  And I apologise, Your Honour --

 22              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 23              MS. RICHTEROVA: -- that I didn't tender it at an earlier stage.

 24              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think that should be the routine, at least

 25   if you want to tender.

Page 16158

  1              Now, if we're talking about statement or statements ...

  2              MS. RICHTEROVA:  I'm referring only to one statement.

  3              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, one statement only.  And that would be the

  4   October statement?

  5              MS. RICHTEROVA:  It is a statement dated 15 and 16 October 2001

  6   with the ERN number 0211-6884 to 6897.

  7              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Ms. Richterova.

  8              Madam Registrar, including this document, we would then have

  9   ...?

 10              THE REGISTRAR:  P884 to P888.

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Since I hear no objections, they are

 12   admitted into evidence.

 13              I have one further observation for you, Mr. Josse:  You put a

 14   question to the witness whether -- you put it to her, as a matter of fact,

 15   that Trnopolje was not a detention centre but, rather, a collection centre. 

 16   You did not give it much follow-up when the witness explained that.  The

 17   Defence is fully entitled to challenge any fact that is adopted as an

 18   adjudicated fact, but I wondered where the adjudicated facts say that

 19   thousands of prisoners were held, that armed soldiers guarded the camp,

 20   that the area -- an area - not the area but an area - of Trnopolje camp was

 21   surrounded by barbed wire, that there were more rapes at this camp than at

 22   any other camp, whether this approach would be the beginning of a

 23   challenging of adjudicated facts, especially where it's also part of the

 24   adjudicated facts that Trnopolje was at times, at least, an open prison,

 25   although it was dangerous for inmates to be found outside where they might

Page 16159

  1   be attacked by hostile groups in the neighbourhood, and this in effect

  2   amounted to imprisonment in the camp.  I wondered whether under those

  3   circumstances -- of course, it could be the beginning of challenging that,

  4   but it was not perfectly clear to the Chamber.

  5              MR. JOSSE:  The Trial Chamber will have to excuse my ignorance,

  6   but I'm not clear in the context of this Chamber and Tribunal what an

  7   adjudicated fact is, Your Honour.

  8              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, an adjudicated fact is a fact which is

  9   established by another Chamber after the matter has been fully litigated. 

 10   The parties can propose the Chamber to adopt adjudicated facts, which

 11   should be facts and not matters of law.  And then after an exchange of

 12   views between the parties, the Chamber decides whether or not it will adopt

 13   that fact as an adjudicated fact, which does not mean that it's there

 14   forever but you'll also understand that, first of all, one of the

 15   consequences is that the Prosecution has no need to further prove that fact

 16   but, of course, the Defence is in a position to challenge the fact.  But

 17   you'll also understand that if this fact has been established on the basis

 18   of a fully litigated -- in a fully litigated way, that it needs a bit more

 19   effort than just challenging another fact would need.

 20              MR. JOSSE:  Could I say two things:  First of all, I mean this

 21   very genuinely.  I'm very grateful for Your Honour's explanation.

 22              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 23              MR. JOSSE:  And my apologies for not knowing that.

 24              Secondly, of course, I didn't -- it follows from what I've just

 25   asked Your Honour, I didn't know it was an adjudicated fact.

Page 16160

  1              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

  2              MR. JOSSE: Thirdly, though I'm not anxious to go into matters of

  3   privilege, clearly it was a result of a short conversation with Mr.

  4   Krajisnik.  It may have been a misunderstanding on my part, Your Honour.

  5              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

  6              MR. JOSSE:  And I have insufficient knowledge, as was quite

  7   clear, I fear, from the way I asked the questions, to pursue the matter any

  8   further.

  9              Whether it's something we're going to pursue further is

 10   something I will -- I see Mr. Krajisnik putting his hand up, Your Honour.

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 12              MR. JOSSE:  And that's something I need to discuss with him and

 13   Mr. Stewart.

 14              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think, as a matter of fact, that you

 15   clearly said at that moment - but let me just - well, it was in my mind

 16   somewhere that you said that you were instructed.  But I'll leave that

 17   apart.  That's not something to be raised at this moment.

 18              MR. STEWART:  Yes, Your Honour I'd ask like --

 19              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 20              MR. STEWART: -- to just briefly say something.  First of all,

 21   clearly I have absolutely no complaint about what Mr. Josse has just said

 22   because if it's anybody's responsibility to fill him in on what adjudicated

 23   facts were, it was mine.  I'd just like to make it clear, Your Honour, I

 24   actually do believe I know what adjudicated facts are, but then I've been

 25   here rather a long time.  But if I had done the cross-examination, there's

Page 16161

  1   no chance this issue would have come up because there's no chance I would

  2   have had enough time to explore that or unearth that adjudicated fact

  3   anyway, so Mr. Josse has covered the cross-examination at least as

  4   thoroughly as I would have done anyway.  Because in the circumstances of

  5   this case, Your Honour, it is just impossible for the Defence team to

  6   follow these highways and byways in this matter.  So -- well, there we are,

  7   Your Honour.  That's the way it is.

  8              Your Honour has consistently said that -- something along the

  9   lines of perfection is not required, that a robust approach has to be

 10   adopted, Your Honour.  Sometimes the robust approach has to be rather too

 11   robust in these circumstances, but I do wish to make that clear, Your

 12   Honour.  It is simply impossible for us to do this, so these slight flaws

 13   in cross-examinations are going to emerge whether it's Mr. Josse, whether

 14   it's me, whether it's Ms. Loukas.  It's absolutely inevitable.

 15              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's on the record, Mr. Stewart.

 16              I think, as a matter of fact, that I wanted to draw the

 17   attention to this specific issue, where I felt that it might not have been

 18   fully clear.

 19              Mr. Krajisnik, you'd like to add something?  The Chamber is

 20   aware that how free people were to leave or not to leave Trnopolje is a

 21   matter that has been in other cases extensively dealt with.

 22              Mr. Krajisnik.

 23              THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I think

 24   you've explained it all, more or less.  However, I wish to be fair.  I

 25   completely forgot about adjudicated facts.  I suggested to Mr. Josse that

Page 16162

  1   Trnopolje was an open collection centre and that he should note that.  And,

  2   in fact, it is our intention to prove that in our case, so that it's not

  3   Mr. Josse's fault, if I can put it that way, because I didn't know about

  4   the adjudicated facts and the procedure linked to that.  I just wanted to

  5   show what we were going to prove to the Court in due course.  So thank you

  6   for giving us your explanations.  That is the legal explanations.  It is a

  7   legal matter, and it is not quite along the lines of what I thought as

  8   being the subject of discussion in future.

  9              JUDGE ORIE:  Well, all being on the right track again, is there

 10   any other procedural issue to be raised at this moment?

 11              Mr. Tieger.

 12              MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Very briefly.  On Monday,

 13   the Prosecution will seek approximately 15 minutes, I would estimate, to

 14   raise matters in connection with the cross-examination of Witness

 15   Davidovic.  I raise that for two reasons:  Number one, for the simple -- to

 16   foreshadow a simple scheduling matter; and number two, because he was Mr. -

 17   - or he was Ms. Loukas's witness, and I have been advised that she may not

 18   be planning to be present next week or during the remainder of the case.  I

 19   wanted to raise it so that the Defence would have an opportunity to alert

 20   her if she did want to be present for that.

 21              MR. STEWART:  Yes.  I think, Your Honour, in fact Ms. Loukas --

 22   she will be here, anyway, on Monday because she is handling Mr. Brown. 

 23   What Mr. Tieger says applies beyond Mr. Brown.  But -- but Ms. Loukas is

 24   taking Mr. Brown.

 25              MR. TIEGER:  Then I raised it for a simple scheduling reason in

Page 16163

  1   that case.

  2              MR. STEWART:  Yes, that's understood.

  3              MR. TIEGER:  And I would remind the Court that today, as has

  4   been our recent history, is dossier day.

  5              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

  6              MR. TIEGER:  And we would like therefore to tender the Zvornik

  7   dossier.

  8              JUDGE ORIE:  Zvornik dossier.  And then I take it it will be

  9   physically distributed?

 10              MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's there.  Until now, the dossier, of

 12   course, most important is that Madam Registrar receives directly a copy. 

 13   But usually the other copies find their way to those interested.

 14              The provisional number to be assigned to it would be, Madam

 15   Registrar ...?

 16              THE REGISTRAR:  The Zvornik dossier will be Prosecution Exhibit

 17   P889.

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 19              Any other issue, Mr. Tieger?

 20              MR. TIEGER:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 21              JUDGE ORIE:  Any issue to be raised by the Defence?

 22              MR. STEWART:  No, thank you, Your Honour.

 23              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 24                            [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 25              JUDGE ORIE:  We will then adjourn until next Monday, quarter

Page 16164

  1   past 2.00 in this same courtroom, number 1.

  2                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.34 p.m.,

  3                            to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of

  4                            July, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.