1 Monday, 31 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 We found on our desk Exhibit P954 in B/C/S. I take it -- I don't

11 know who presented that. I think it was the Prosecution. There might be

12 no need to have everything translated, but at least to have relevant

13 portions translated in such a way, for example, the headings in the lists,

14 so that we could find our way through it.

15 MR. HARMON: We'll be glad to do that, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

17 Then, Mr. Stewart, is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

18 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures, as far as I'm aware of that.

20 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: That would mean your next witness would be Mr. Lazar

22 Stavnjak.

23 MR. STEWART: That's correct, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, will you please escort the witness

25 into the courtroom.

1 MR. STEWART: Can I just say while the witness is coming in, Your

2 Honour, we served a supplemental information sheet on the witness with a

3 copy to the Chamber. That was only done quite early today, but as far as

4 I understand, there's no -- certainly at the moment there's no issue that

5 arises on that. I don't know whether Your Honours will have noticed that

6 the estimate for the witness has been revised from two and a half to three

7 and a half hours. Of course, it's only an estimate, Your Honour, and I --

8 well, nobody knows exactly how fast we get to go.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We do not know. I can imagine that some of the

10 personal history of the witness could be dealt with in a rather leading

11 way, Mr. Harmon. I see you're nodding yes.

12 MR. STEWART: There won't be much, Your Honour. I was proposing,

13 actually, to lead through that and also through a certain amount of basic

14 geography and facts about the municipality which seems to be much more

15 conveniently dealt with leading.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Stavnjak.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this Court, the Rules of

21 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

22 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The

23 text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I invite you to make

24 that solemn declaration.

25 WITNESS: LAZAR STAVNJAK

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stavnjak. Please be seated.

5 You'll first be examined by Mr. Stewart, counsel for the Defence.

6 Examined by Mr. Stewart:

7 Q. You're Mr. Lazar Stavnjak?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you're 47 years old, and until sometime in 1992, you had lived

10 your whole life in Gorazde; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And we'll go into some personal history at some point. But you

13 were never a member of the Communist Party, were you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And you currently live in Cajnice, where you were the deputy mayor

16 with particular responsibility for business affairs?

17 A. Yes. Not the deputy, but an assistant to the mayor.

18 Q. And you are also an elected member of the Municipal Assembly of

19 Cajnice and the president of the Cajnice SDS Deputies Club?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And your post as an assistant mayor, as it's been translated, is a

22 paid post; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And that's your sole employment at the moment, is it?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. So in fact you have -- your personal qualifications are in

2 mechanical engineering; that's right, isn't it?

3 A. Yes. Fifth level of mechanical engineering.

4 Q. Now, I'm going to show you a map at some convenient point in a few

5 minutes, but just to summarise for Their Honours' benefit. Confirm for

6 Their Honours if this is right. Gorazde is a municipality on the

7 south-eastern slopes of the Jahorina mountain and it's -- the river Drina

8 runs through the town, and there are three bridges across the Drina in

9 Gorazde town, aren't there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And from your recollection, though it's checkable, according to

12 the 1991 census, there were 40.600 inhabitants in Gorazde municipality,

13 and the ethnic structure, and say whether you consider this to be clearly

14 wrong for you, the ethnic structure or balance was that 27 and a half

15 thousand or 68 per cent of the municipality population were Muslims,

16 12.200 or 29 per cent were Serbs, and a very small number of Croats, and

17 then Yugoslavs, Montenegrins and other nationalities or inhabitants,

18 totalling just about 800 people. Does that accord with your recollection?

19 A. Yes, mostly, yes.

20 Q. No significant differences between what I've just said and your

21 recollection; is that fair?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. Now, I'm just going to offer you a description rather than

24 painfully go to points on the map, because it's all checkable anyway. But

25 the town of Gorazde consisted of areas distinctly occupied predominantly

1 by one ethnic group rather than another, and then some mixed areas?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the Muslim population, which of course was the majority, was

4 heavily concentrated in the Mahalla area of the town, where there were

5 perhaps about 9.000 Muslim habitants?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Muslims were also living between the city bridge and what was

8 known as the Bacci community in a mixed Serb and Muslim zone?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The remainder of the Muslim population was distributed in

11 surrounding communities and villages and particularly Ilovaca, Berin,

12 Mravinjas, Osanice, Novakovici, Oglecevi, Zupcici, Trebesko Brdo [phoen],

13 Zapljevac, Ustipraca, Kopaci; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And Serbs predominated in particularly villages of Podkozara,

16 Dubiste [phoen], Biljin, Povrsnica [phoen], Borak Brdo, Ranjen [phoen],

17 Glamoc, Gornja Brdja, Podhranjen.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the majority of Serbs in Gorazde lived in the heart of the

20 town itself, so the actual town was majority Serb; is that right?

21 A. Mixed. But quite a few Serbs used to live in the centre of town.

22 Q. And in that region of municipalities, including Ruda, Visegrad,

23 Foca, Cajnice, Rogatica, Kalinovik, Gorazde in that time, I'm talking

24 about the beginning of 1990s, was economically the most developed

25 municipality in the region, wasn't it?

1 A. Yes, in the entire region, right.

2 Q. And two particularly -- the most important industrial enterprises

3 in Gorazde were the Unis factory at Pobjeda and a chemical plant, Azot

4 Vitkovic?

5 A. Yes. The two biggest plants, Unis Pobjeda and Azot Vitkovic.

6 Q. And is it fair to say that at, say, the beginning of 1990 and the

7 middle of 1990, that inter-ethnic relations in Gorazde municipality were

8 on the whole harmonious?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Had there been some disruption of that harmony in the early 1980s?

11 A. In the beginning of the 1980s, some extreme Muslim groups came

12 along, and according to the public security services at the time, they

13 were described as extremist activists and some members of those groups of

14 Muslim nationality were found in possession of weapons and they were sent

15 to prison for that offence.

16 Q. For what sort of term of imprisonment? Do you remember?

17 A. I don't know. Those were all crimes and it was all in line with

18 the criminal law of the former Yugoslavia and the Republic of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina within the former Yugoslavia.

20 Q. You don't remember what sentences they got?

21 A. They got prison sentences, but I can't remember correctly for how

22 long.

23 Q. Can you remember the names of any of the men - let's assume they

24 were men - who were convicted?

25 A. I'm finding it difficult to remember the names. I know some first

1 names, some surnames, but I can't really say the exact first and second

2 name of everybody in that group. But that can be found in the official

3 documents of the former Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, at

4 the public security services, and that documentation certainly exists.

5 Q. Let me offer you some names. Imam Agokurovac [phoen]? Was that

6 one of the men?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And a clock-maker called Safet Efendic? Was he one?

9 A. I'm not quite sure. The family name is certainly correct, but I

10 can't remember the first name.

11 Q. So Efendic is correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What about Imam Hasanbegovic? Did anyone of that name have any

16 part in any of these events?

17 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. What was his part?

19 A. I think he was at the very top of that organisation. His wife was

20 a doctor, a paediatrician, in fact.

21 Q. Did you at the time have any personal knowledge of what they --

22 the purpose of that organisation was or their policies?

23 A. No. Except for what I read in the papers, because it was widely

24 reported in the papers, and also, you know, for well what the system was

25 at the time. Certain things were allowed to be published and others not.

1 Q. In brief, what was reported as the purpose or the policies of that

2 organisation?

3 A. I don't know what their purpose is -- what the purpose of their

4 association was, but when the group we are referring to was first

5 discovered, they were found to possess some infantry weapons. At least,

6 that's what I heard at the time.

7 Q. Was there any repetition or recurrence of such -- first of all,

8 such Muslim activities throughout the rest of the 1980s?

9 A. Well, after that group was discovered, well, their activity, if I

10 may say so, was association for enemy activity. That's what it used to be

11 called at the time. Well, so there was this one group, and afterwards I

12 had no knowledge of anything similar.

13 Q. Were there any corresponding or similar Serb activities at any

14 time during the 1980s in or around Gorazde?

15 A. If we can call it like that -- well, it was characteristic of the

16 system in which we used to live, in which we lived until 1990. At the

17 time when this group was discovered, the group that we've just mentioned,

18 the public security service tried to strike a balance, and in the vicinity

19 of Rogatica, they discovered that on the occasion of a christening of an

20 Orthodox priest's son, Serb traditional songs were being sung for that act

21 of singing Serb traditional songs. That Orthodox priest was given a

22 prison sentence and it was a prison sentence of four years.

23 Q. Was that particular event of the arrest, imprisonment of that

24 priest, was that thought in the locality of Gorazde to have any connection

25 with the Muslim activities and convictions that you mentioned a few

1 minutes ago?

2 A. No. It was engineered by the system, the former system. If you

3 had nationalism on one side, they absolutely had to try to and find

4 something on the other side in order to try to strike some kind of

5 balance. That was very basis that made the system possible and made the

6 possible for the system to continue to exist.

7 Q. Now, I want to jump right forward to June 1990, Mr. Stavnjak, and

8 I'll lead you on these basic facts. In June 1990, the SDA, a

9 predominantly or entirely Muslim party, was organised in the locality and

10 municipality of Gorazde, wasn't it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then in July 1990, a municipal committee of the SDA was

13 established in Gorazde, headed by Mr. Hadzo Efendic, who was an economist

14 employed at the Gorazde post office?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, you -- did you know of the formation of that SDA municipal

17 committee at the time?

18 A. Yes. There was the initiative committee and then later on there

19 was the municipal committee.

20 Q. Did you have any knowledge yourself at the time of the size and

21 composition of those committees?

22 A. I don't have any particular knowledge. I know that the president

23 of the SDA was Mr. Hadzo Efendic.

24 Q. And he was somebody whom you knew personally and with whom you had

25 a good relationship, wasn't he?

1 A. Yes. We were neighbours.

2 Q. And at that time, in the middle of 1990, there was still harmony

3 between the different national or ethnic groups in Gorazde, wasn't there?

4 A. Yes. One can say that there was harmony in the ethnic

5 relationships, until the moment the ethnically based parties were formed,

6 first amongst the Croats and then amongst the Muslims.

7 Q. When did the Croats -- the Croats formed an ethnically based party

8 in Gorazde, did they?

9 A. I was referring to the level of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In

10 Gorazde, there was very few Croats. There were only 99 of them, according

11 to the 1991 census.

12 Q. That's what I want to clarify. So to get it straight, the Croats

13 did not form a local group or a local party; is that what you're saying?

14 A. No, they didn't.

15 Q. Now, the Serbs in Gorazde, I'll say you, because you were one of

16 them, of course, Mr. Stavnjak, began to organise themselves politically on

17 a day known as St. Pantelejmon's Day; is that right?

18 A. Yes. On St. Pantelejmon's Day, on the 9th of August, 1990. The

19 Serbian people in Gorazde established their Serbian Democratic Party, and

20 I was elected a member of that committee.

21 Q. And in fact, on that day there was a quite large meeting in front

22 of St. George's church in Donja Sopotnica, wasn't there?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And was the municipal committee of the SDS for Gorazde formed on

25 that very same day?

1 A. No. The municipal committee was established a month later,

2 sometime between the 8th and 10 September 1990. This happened at the

3 football stadium in Gorazde.

4 Q. So there was another meeting, was there, at the stadium of the

5 Radnici or Radnicki soccer club, attended by around 5.000 people on that

6 date in early September 1990; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And in fact, you personally were either in charge of or in charge

9 of the organisation of that meeting; is that right?

10 A. Yes. I was a member of the organisation committee to hold the

11 assembly of the SDA [as interpreted], and I was the chairperson of that

12 assembly and I announced all the speakers who delivered their speeches at

13 that particular meeting.

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, SDA has appeared in line 10. Whatever

15 the witness said, whether it's a slip of the tongue, it plainly must be

16 SDS.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's accepted, unless the -- yes.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] SDS, it should be, the Serbian

19 Democratic Party.

20 MR. STEWART: Indeed.

21 Q. So that meeting would be fairly described as the founding

22 convention of the SDS in Gorazde; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that is right. And for that reason, sir, I am giving you the

24 full name of the Serbian Democratic Party in order to avoid the mistakes.

25 Q. Thank you. And Dr. Radovan Karadzic was present at that meeting,

1 wasn't he?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And he spoke?

4 A. He did.

5 Q. Was Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik present at that meeting?

6 A. No.

7 Q. I'm not going to ask you to give us verbatim what Dr. Karadzic

8 said as if you could remember, but would you be able to summarise for the

9 Trial Chamber the key points or tone of what Dr. Karadzic said to the

10 meeting on that occasion?

11 A. If you'll allow me, in a nutshell, I can tell you this. I don't

12 know whether I will interpret his words well, but Dr. Karadzic said at the

13 time that neither the Serbian nor the Croat nor the Muslim mothers would

14 bear children that would lose their lives for the state and its

15 organisation. In order to organise a state, one has to use brains and not

16 human lives. The Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in

17 Gorazde, of course, because he delivered this speech in Gorazde, sought

18 equality, as would be given to the other two ethnic groups in Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina. The civil, the ethnic, the economic, the religious, and the

20 cultural equality, that is.

21 Mr. Karadzic also said on that occasion that after the elections,

22 the first multi-party elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina, a partnership

23 government would be established, which means, in Bosanski Petrovac, if

24 Muslims won 15 per cent of the seats in the government, the Serbs would

25 give Muslims more participation in power in Petrovac by as much as, for

1 example, the Serbs gain seats in the municipality of Kalesija, or some

2 other municipality in which the Serbs won 15 per cent.

3 Q. Just going back to a moment to your own position. Could you just

4 summarise for the Trial Chamber the reasons why you were chosen as the

5 secretary of the SDS in Gorazde in the summer of 1990.

6 A. Of course I will tell you. My parents brought me up in a very

7 patriarchal family, in an Orthodox family. We followed the laws of the

8 Orthodox Church. Throughout all my life, an Orthodox priest visited my

9 house, thanks to my parents, of course. My father served with Orthodox

10 priests for 20 or 25 years. He accompanied them in the performance of

11 their duties in the Gorazde diocese. That's why I was considered, if you

12 allow me to say that, an honest man that people could trust.

13 Q. And the person chosen as the president of the SDS in Gorazde was a

14 Mr. Begovic; that's right, isn't it?

15 A. Yes, Mr. Stanoj Begovic.

16 Q. He was someone you knew, maybe three years younger than you,

17 something like that?

18 A. Yes. He was three years younger than me.

19 Q. And he was thought to be a good choice because he was an educated

20 man, he was a law school graduate, he was not married and was therefore

21 supposed to have more time and energies to devote to the political

22 activities. Those were all considerations, weren't they?

23 A. Yes. He had a degree in law and I believe that this was the

24 decisive factor.

25 Q. Just to summarise: The Serb positions held in the municipality of

1 Gorazde immediately before the multi-party elections which came in 1990,

2 if I just summarise these for you and confirm whether it's correct: Serbs

3 held the position of president of the Executive Committee of the

4 municipality?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And regional police chief, and that was for the region that

7 included Gorazde; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was the president of the Municipal Assembly at the time was a

10 Muslim?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And as far as that position of regional police chief was

13 concerned, there was an understanding that it alternated, so the post was

14 held immediately before the multi-party elections by Mr. Stanko

15 Stojanovic, a Serb; is that right?

16 A. Yes. Mr. Stanko Stojanovic was his name.

17 Q. His predecessor had been a Muslim, but then that person's

18 predecessor had been a Serb, and so on?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you, in late 1990, after the multi-party elections, did you

21 attend any sort of SDS meeting outside the municipality of Gorazde?

22 A. Yes. After the elections, I attended one meeting.

23 Q. And was that in Pale?

24 A. That was in the Koran Hotel in Pale.

25 Q. And how precisely, if at all, are you able to date that meeting?

1 A. I believe that the meeting was held in the first half of December

2 1990.

3 Q. And did you attend that meeting with your colleague Mr. Begovic,

4 from the Gorazde SDS?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. He's alive, by the way, now, isn't he, Mr. Begovic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And were you the only two representatives of the Gorazde SDS who

9 attended that meeting?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And had you been invited by someone on behalf of the SDS from

12 Sarajevo?

13 A. Yes, from the leadership of the party.

14 Q. Was it Mr. Krajisnik who issued the invitation?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you remember who it was?

17 A. Somebody from the secretariat of the party, you know.

18 Q. About how many people were at the meeting?

19 A. At the meeting there were approximately 300 people from all the

20 municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at least two representatives of each

21 of the municipalities. We're talking close to 300 people.

22 Q. All SDS?

23 A. Yes. They were mostly presidents of the municipal boards, their

24 secretaries, and vice-presidents.

25 Q. Was Dr. Karadzic there?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And presided over or chaired the meeting, did he?

3 A. Yes. And he held a keynote speech. And then his associates took

4 over from him and chaired the meeting.

5 Q. Do you remember specifically any other key members of the SDS who

6 were present at that meeting?

7 A. I believe that the main thing on the agenda was the implementation

8 of the results of the elections held on the 18th November 1990. The

9 president of the Executive Board of the party, Mr. Ostojic, was there, who

10 was in charge of that.

11 Q. Was Mr. Vojislav Maksimovic there?

12 A. I'm not sure whether Mr. Maksimovic was there, but I'm sure that

13 Mr. Ostojic was the one who chaired the meeting throughout.

14 Q. Do you remember whether Mr. Nikola or Professor Mr. Nikola

15 Koljevic was there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are you saying you remember or that he was -- are you saying he

18 was there?

19 A. Yes. I think he was there.

20 Q. What about Mrs. Biljana Plavsic? Was she there?

21 A. I'm not sure whether Mrs. Plavsic was there. I can't remember.

22 I've given it a long and hard thought, but I can't remember whether she

23 was there or not.

24 Q. Was Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik there?

25 A. No.

1 Q. At the time of this meeting, did you know who Mr. Momcilo

2 Krajisnik was?

3 A. No. I only heard of Mr. Krajisnik in the media when he was

4 elected the president of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly.

5 Q. And did you see him on television at some point?

6 A. Yes. From the moment when he was elected president, in other

7 words.

8 Q. Can you say whether the first time you saw him on television was

9 before or after this meeting at the Koran Hotel?

10 A. I can't remember when the first session of the Assembly of Bosnia

11 and Herzegovina took place. If you have that information, you will know.

12 I first saw Mr. Krajisnik on TV when he was elected president of the

13 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is the day when I saw him for

14 the first time on TV.

15 Q. Do you remember -- again, briefly, please, at least in the first

16 place. Do you remember anything that was said by Dr. Karadzic to that

17 meeting?

18 A. Yes. Mr. Karadzic greeted all the attendants. He congratulated

19 all the members of the municipalities, i.e., the leadership of the Serbian

20 Democratic Party, for the results that they had achieved in the first

21 multi-party elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And he asked them to

22 carry out the executive power on the partnership basis, which meant

23 cooperation with other political parties.

24 Q. Is it possible for you to describe very briefly what you remember

25 as being the tone of Dr. Karadzic's remarks to that meeting?

1 A. Not after such a long time. However, I can say that this was a

2 normal conversation and this was advice to all of us, because we were all

3 beginners in the politics, who had been elected to the positions of

4 executive power. He advised us how to execute our power, how to talk to

5 our partners from other political parties in our respective

6 municipalities.

7 Q. Now, was the physical layout of the meeting that the main body of

8 the participants was sitting in rows, facing a top table, whether it was

9 at a particularly higher level, a top table at which were Mr. Karadzic and

10 some others? Was that the layout?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How long, roughly, did the whole meeting last? First of all, was

13 it a single day?

14 A. The first part that we all attended as a plenary meeting lasted

15 somewhat shorter. The second part was much longer.

16 Q. And the second part took a different form, then, did it? Did you

17 break up into working groups or task forces?

18 A. Yes, precisely so. We were split into task forces. One task

19 force was composed of the municipalities that won less than 30 per cent

20 participation in the municipal power. The second task force was composed

21 of the municipalities that won between 30 and 50 per cent. And the third

22 group was composed of those who won up to 70 per cent -- 75 per cent. And

23 the fourth group consisted of those municipalities that won over 75

24 per cent of the participation in power.

25 This is where all the municipalities were given directions,

1 depending on the level of their participation according to the result that

2 they had achieved in the multi-party elections.

3 Q. So your municipality of Gorazde, where you had obtained somewhere

4 between 26 and 28 per cent of the vote, so you just fell within the first

5 of those groups, the less than 30 per cent group; that's right, isn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And is this correct: That Gacko municipality was a mirror in the

8 sense that the Muslims in Gacko had obtained a very similar percentage of

9 the votes to those obtained by Serbs in Gorazde?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And there was an internal SDS agreement that the Serbs would, in

12 forthcoming negotiations with Muslims, ask to receive the same level of

13 participation in Gorazde as the Muslims should obtain in Gacko?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So, in other words, is this right: The Gacko Serbs were going to

16 have to give something on their arithmetical entitlement to help you in

17 Gorazde to obtain more than your arithmetical entitlement?

18 A. Precisely so.

19 Q. And you and your colleagues from Gacko had discussions on that

20 day, at the Koran Hotel with a view to that concerted balancing

21 arrangement?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And was this all preparatory to anticipated meetings with your --

24 particularly in your municipality, your Muslim counterparts?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you attend any other large or non-local SDS meeting after that

2 meeting in the Koran Hotel and before the end of the war?

3 A. No.

4 Q. After that meeting at the Koran Hotel, did you return to your home

5 in Gorazde?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And meetings were then held with your Muslim counterparts in

8 Gorazde to discuss power-sharing, were they?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did those meetings begin before or after the Serb Christmas?

11 A. After the Orthodox Christmas of 1991.

12 Q. And on the Serb side, the negotiations were led by Mr. Begovic and

13 the vice-president, SDS vice-president in Gorazde, Mr. Mladen Mojevic

14 [phoen], and you participated; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And on the Muslim side, the leader was Mr. Efendic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you have several meetings?

19 A. There were four to five meetings.

20 Q. How long, typically, the meetings?

21 A. On average, two to three hours.

22 Q. And did you, the SDS, ask for the Serbs, did you ask for the

23 Presidency of the municipality Executive Committee?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On the footing that the Muslims or the SDA would be able to put

1 their person into the position of Municipal Assembly president?

2 A. Yes. Because the first person in the municipality is the

3 president of the municipality, and the second-ranking person in any

4 municipality is the head of the Executive Committee of the municipality.

5 That's the hierarchy of things.

6 Q. And did you ask for -- the SDS representatives, did you ask for

7 other posts in addition to Presidency of the Executive Committee?

8 A. Of course. We, the representatives of the Serbian Democratic

9 Party, asked some of the sectors, the urban planning, the others, and

10 there were four such departments, and we wanted the head of one of these

11 departments to be a Serb, and that's what we were entitled to, according

12 to the results of the elections.

13 Q. What were the -- what did the SDA indicate in those discussions

14 they were prepared for the SDS to have?

15 A. Well, the SDA representatives suggested some kind of deputy

16 chairmanship in some part of the executive branch of powers, deputy

17 chairman of an executive committee, and it was an unpaid post.

18 Q. Was that satisfactory to the SDS?

19 A. No. SDS disagreed, and so we remained adamant that we should get

20 as much as we gained at the elections in the 18th of November.

21 Q. Now, according to your evidence so far, the post of president of

22 the Executive Committee, which was being asked for by the SDS at those

23 negotiations, was a post which had been held by a Serb immediately before

24 the elections. Was there any difference between the post before the

25 election and the post after the election?

1 A. Yes. Before the elections, the president of the Executive

2 Committee of Gorazde was a person of Serb nationality.

3 Q. Oh, I didn't phrase the question very well. Leave aside the

4 holder of the post. Was there any -- if you had had a Serb in that

5 position after the multi-party election, would that, for all practical

6 purposes, have been the exact equivalent of the position before the

7 election, where a Serb had been president of the Executive Committee?

8 A. Now I do understand what you meant. Before the multi-party

9 elections, the Serbs in Gorazde who had key positions of power used to be

10 appointed by the municipal committee of the Communist League. Now, the

11 difference is this: After the multi-party elections in November 1990, the

12 positions of power occupied by Serbs depended on the votes cast by the

13 Serb people in Gorazde, and therefore depended on the amount of trust that

14 the Serb people in Gorazde had in those people. That was the essential

15 difference.

16 Q. In these negotiations that you were conducting with your Muslim

17 counterparts, did you SDS leaders in Gorazde receive any instructions from

18 the central SDS leadership?

19 A. Nothing but the agreement reached at the Koran Hotel in Pale, that

20 is to say, to ask for 30 per cent of positions of power, the executive

21 branch, that is, in Gorazde. So if you go through the list of jobs, the

22 president of the municipality, heads of various departments and all that,

23 so out of that total we wanted 30 per cent.

24 Q. What was the result of those meetings and negotiations between you

25 and your SDS colleagues and Mr. Efendic and his colleagues?

1 A. Those were very difficult talks. They were very tough. There was

2 no agreement at the end. And with hindsight, I think one could say that

3 the political parties are to blame, and in this case, the SDA party in

4 particular, because they had absolute power in the local parliament, and

5 they gave no indication of even a little bit of tolerance in order to try

6 and reach some kind of agreement and for a fraction of that executive

7 power to be handed over to the SDA -- SDS, sorry.

8 Q. And Mr. Efendic personally, what sort of a negotiator was he?

9 A. Well, for the most part, he was the one who was the main

10 negotiator, and he was a tough cookie.

11 Q. Can you date the point at which the negotiations broke down?

12 A. I think early spring 1991, the beginning of March 1991, so even

13 earlier. At that stage, the negotiations broke down completely and the

14 first assembly was held, and the Serb representatives did not attend.

15 Q. You're talking about the first Gorazde municipality assembly after

16 the breakdown; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Stavnjak, you worked at that time, didn't you, yourself,

19 at the Pobjeda plant?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And there were about something not far short of 4.000 employees at

22 that plant; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the activities of that plant, did they include or consist of

25 the manufacture of weapons, weapons and explosives?

1 A. Well, it was just the manufacture of explosives. Weapons were not

2 manufactured at Pobjeda.

3 Q. And can you say what was the ethnic balance of the employees at

4 the Pobjeda plant at the time we're talking about, in early 1991?

5 A. In terms of percentages, if we look at the overall number of

6 employees at Pobjeda, there were about between 51 and 52 per cent of

7 Serbs, and the rest were Muslims.

8 Q. And you were a production technologist; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were there any changes affecting the work-force at the Pobjeda

11 plant from the beginning of 1991?

12 A. Yes. In the beginning of 1991, the SDA started to take over both

13 the power at the municipal level, the political power, but also in

14 companies and production plants, and that referred to Pobjeda as well.

15 Q. And how did that day by day and specifically affecting the

16 work-force of the Pobjeda plant, how did that show itself?

17 A. Well, I'm going to try and keep it brief. First of all, the

18 general manager was replaced and then the department heads, quality

19 control and production departments, and at the very end, even the guard.

20 Q. And what was his name?

21 A. I think his name was Mr. Borko Krunic.

22 Q. You've referred to names and replacement. Was this process that

23 you described, did it -- was it related in any way to the different ethnic

24 or national groups in Gorazde?

25 A. I haven't quite understood your question. But all the management

1 posts at the Pobjeda company at the time, whoever was a Serb was let go,

2 and they were replaced by Muslims.

3 Q. Well, yes. I'll be very specific. The general manager that you

4 referred to as having been replaced, he was a Serb, was he?

5 A. Yes. The general manager was Boro Josipovic, a Serb.

6 Q. I hope there's no objection to my leading at this point in the

7 evidence. And he was replaced by a Muslim; is that right?

8 A. Yes. Mr. Hasan Tafro was appointed and he is a Muslim.

9 Q. And the guard whose name you think was Mr. Borko Krunic, he was a

10 Serb and he was also replaced by a Muslim; is that right?

11 A. Yes. I just can't remember the name.

12 Q. He was a guard or a watchman; is that a fair label on his job?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Were there any significant events in 1991 relating to materials at

15 the Pobjeda plant?

16 A. Yes. Since as I've mentioned before, slightly more than half the

17 work-force at Pobjeda was there, and the taking out of explosives and

18 explosive devices was noticed.

19 Q. Was it noticed by you?

20 A. I myself didn't see it, but quite a few employees commented on it

21 at the company.

22 Q. And who did you hear was taking out explosives and explosive

23 devices?

24 A. Explosives and explosive devices -- well, at the time, Serbs did

25 not know who was taking them out. It was mostly employees of Muslim

1 nationality, in fact, that were involved.

2 Q. Was there an incident in Gorazde in 1991 - outside the plant, I'm

3 talking about - was there an incident involving an explosion?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did that take place in October 1991?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In Sandzak -- this is a hard one. Sandzaki Brigade Street, or

8 bridge street, perhaps it is. You can probably put us right on the name

9 of the street.

10 A. Yes. We could say that that was the explosion in the centre of

11 town at the Sandzackih Brigada Street. That was the name of the street at

12 the time. And that's where the explosion took place. And at that stage,

13 Serbs in Gorazde realised that those rumours and claims about the

14 explosives and explosive devices having been taken out of the Pobjeda

15 manufacturing plant were true.

16 Q. Were two people killed in that explosion?

17 A. Yes. On the occasion of that explosion, two people were killed, a

18 man and a woman.

19 Q. Were they occupants of the flat or apartment where the explosion

20 took place?

21 A. The woman used to live in that flat, and the man did not.

22 Q. And what was the name of the man who was killed?

23 A. I think, if I remember correctly, his name was Dzafer.

24 Q. Was there an official explanation offered for the explosion?

25 A. According to what I heard, the information from the public

1 security station in Gorazde, headed by a Muslim, said that a gas container

2 had exploded.

3 Q. Was that explanation accepted by the local population?

4 A. Serb people in Gorazde did not bite and they knew full well what

5 it was all about.

6 Q. What did they know?

7 A. The Serb people knew that it was caused by the explosives that

8 were talked about and that originated from Pobjeda.

9 Q. And the woman who was killed, what -- had she been employed

10 immediately before her death?

11 A. Yes. She used to work at Pobjeda, and she dealt with explosives

12 and explosive devices in person.

13 Q. In 1991, do you recall any noticeable changes of activity relating

14 to JNA reserve officers in Gorazde?

15 A. I think they gradually started to absent themselves from work

16 during the time when they were still employed at Pobjeda.

17 Q. And when you say "they," are you talking about JNA reserve

18 officers of all ethnic nationalities and groups?

19 A. We're talking about the former JNA reserve officers who were

20 Muslims and who used to work at Pobjeda.

21 Q. Do you have any knowledge of any reason why they had started to

22 absent themselves from work?

23 A. According to the information from citizens of Serb nationality,

24 from Ilovaca, those former reserve officers of the JNA of Muslim

25 nationality used to go to Ilovaca for training, military training.

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1 Q. Now, was there a point at which you and Mr. Begovic withdrew from

2 active politics in Gorazde?

3 A. Yes. In the second half of 1991, Mr. Begovic and myself withdrew

4 from the leadership of the Serb Democratic Party and we were replaced by

5 Mrs. Miroslava Herin, who was a doctor, and Mr. Bosko Sekaric. And

6 Mr. Mojevic stayed on as deputy president.

7 Q. You say the second half of 1991. Are you able to be any more

8 precise than that about the date when you ceased activities?

9 A. I can't give you the exact date, but I do know that it was in the

10 second half of 1991. I know that for sure.

11 Q. Who was Professor Kosoric?

12 A. Professor Kosoric was an inspector of schools at the republican

13 level, and when my party activity came to an end, he withdrew as well.

14 When Mr. Begovic and myself withdrew, Professor Kosoric withdrew as well,

15 and we set up a Serb cultural association called Prosveta, and it was in

16 Gorazde.

17 Q. What specifically did Professor Kosoric withdraw from? What

18 position or activity?

19 A. Professor Kosoric was a member of the municipal board of the SDS.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Stavnjak, you yourself owned a property at that time

21 between Gorazde and Cajnice; is that right?

22 A. Yes. My father and myself.

23 Q. Well, you or your family, then. You owned an apartment in Gorazde

24 and then you or your family more than one property between Cajnice and

25 Gorazde; is that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you personally knew SDS leadership in Cajnice?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you receive any information about any connections between

5 Muslim leaders or political activists in Cajnice and Muslim leaders or

6 political activists in Gorazde?

7 A. Yes. According to my knowledge and according to what I heard from

8 my colleagues from the Serb Democratic Party from Cajnice, there was

9 indeed cooperation between the SDA and the Cajnice and the SDA in Gorazde.

10 Q. Did that cooperation manifest itself in any specific action in

11 1991 or 1992?

12 A. Yes. By the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992, some Muslim

13 extremists, an extremist group, broke into the warehouse of the

14 agricultural cooperative called Sloga, or Unity, at Cajnice, and they

15 appropriated some infantry weapons, that is to say, some rifles. And it

16 was the cooperative that owned those rifles, and so that was within the

17 framework of the Territorial Defence, the system that was still in

18 existence in the former Yugoslavia.

19 Q. Now, sometime in the spring of 1992, did you personally on some

20 occasion run into a difficulty about obtaining petrol for your car?

21 A. Yes. By the beginning of March, there were fuel shortages in

22 Gorazde.

23 Q. And was there any specific occasion when you first ran into

24 particular difficulty yourself?

25 A. Yes. If you went to a petrol station in March 1991 and you asked

1 for petrol, the attendant would just tell you that they were out of any

2 fuel.

3 Q. This happened to you, did it?

4 A. It did.

5 Q. Was that as far as you were aware at the time -- it's just drawn

6 to my attention by my colleague. You said if you went to a petrol station

7 in March 1991. You mean 1992, do you?

8 A. 1992. It was March 1992.

9 Q. Thank you. When you were told that the -- well, you were told on

10 one -- at least one occasion that the petrol station was out of fuel, were

11 you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As far as you were aware, was that true?

14 A. As far as I know, there always used to be fuel at the petrol

15 station, but it was denied to the representatives of the Serb people.

16 Q. What nationality was the pump attendant who told you -- I think

17 I've made an assumption there. What nationality was the person who told

18 you that the petrol station was out of fuel?

19 A. Muslim.

20 Q. Were you able to obtain petrol fuel from any other source?

21 A. Yes. At the time, or as of then, I myself and all the other Serbs

22 in Gorazde who needed petrol for their cars had to travel between 50 and

23 70 kilometres away from Gorazde in order to fill up. So that in some

24 instances, we went as far as Pljevlje in Montenegro.

25 Q. You had a big enough tank to get there and back, did you,

1 Mr. Stavnjak?

2 Did the same problem affect Muslims?

3 A. Well, I have to tell the truth. Some Muslims were not in a

4 position to get fuel, which made me think that there was rationing of fuel

5 in Gorazde, with a view of certain things to come.

6 Q. So did it affect some Muslims, or was the Serb and Muslim

7 community affected equally by this problem?

8 A. Some Muslims, of course, were affected, certainly.

9 Q. Well, I think I'll have to put the question specifically to you

10 again.

11 Were the Serb and Muslim communities affected equally by this

12 problem?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you perhaps then also add to that the source of

14 knowledge for that specific --

15 MR. STEWART: Certainly. Also knowledge for the question, Your

16 Honour. I'm sorry.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It goes without saying.

18 MR. STEWART:

19 Q. I'll put the question -- so there's no misunderstanding, I'll put

20 the question to you first again. I hope it's coming across to you all

21 right, actually, in translation.

22 Were the Serb and Muslim communities affected equally by this

23 problem of obtaining petrol?

24 A. No, no, not in the same way.

25 Q. So what was the difference?

1 A. Not a single Serb could get fuel, and a minority of Muslims were

2 unable to get fuel.

3 Q. Was this something you were able to observe personally or

4 information you obtained from somewhere else, or a mixture?

5 A. I personally observed this, and also in conversations with other

6 Serbs who resided in Gorazde at the time, they told me that none of them

7 could obtain fuel from the petrol station.

8 Q. And your knowledge of the relative difficulties for Muslims in

9 obtaining petrol, was that from your own observation or from some other

10 information, or a mixture?

11 A. In the vicinity of the petrol station in Gorazde, which is still

12 there, there were some Serb houses, houses inhabited by Serbs, and they

13 could observe what I have just told you, and they told us who was entitled

14 to petrol and who wasn't.

15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm looking at the clock, although I

16 haven't quite finished on petrol. This would be as convenient a point as

17 any.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it would take more than a couple of minutes,

19 then we'd better have the break.

20 MR. STEWART: It would, Your Honour, yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn until 10 minutes past 4.00.

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, can I just say, in case it's helpful,

23 that it does rather look as if I'm going to be quite close to my original

24 estimate rather than my revised estimate.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that's a message which is mainly of

1 importance for the Prosecution.

2 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour. Well, I'm transmitting it

3 across the courtroom in that way.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 10 minutes past 4.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.

8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, was there then an incident involving supply of

10 petrol to a Serb in Gorazde which then triggered off rather more action?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And could you briefly describe what you know about that incident

13 and what happened.

14 A. Sometime around the 11th of March, I believe it was the 11th of

15 March, 1992, one of the Serb citizens of Gorazde whose family name was

16 Radovic came to the petrol station to fill up. There was no fuel for him,

17 just like there was none for other Serb citizens, as we have already

18 described. And when the worker at the petrol station told him that there

19 was no petrol for him, this gentleman called Radovic tied a rope around

20 the petrol tank or petrol pump. He tied this to his car and pulled the

21 pump out of its mount. This act, this incident, was the first incident --

22 at least that's how it was qualified, as an inter-ethnic incident in

23 Gorazde. It had a huge impact.

24 On the same day, Muslim citizens of Gorazde blocked the roads and

25 streets in the town. This was done by some of the Serbs as well in the

1 areas where they made up a majority. This blockade of roads and a huge

2 level of excitement among all the citizens of Gorazde lasted for three

3 days.

4 After those three days, special units arrived with armoured

5 vehicles. They were members of the republican secretariat of the

6 interior. There were talks between representatives of the Muslim people,

7 on the one hand, and the Serb people, on the other hand, and one can say

8 that after these three days, the situation calmed down to a certain

9 extent.

10 During those three days, in the evening hours, one could hear

11 sporadic shots from the village called Pargani. I could tell where the

12 shots came from because my apartment is directed towards that village, the

13 apartment in which I resided at the time.

14 Q. This would be a convenient point at which to show you a map of

15 Gorazde, Mr. Stavnjak.

16 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, I handed up a batch. It's black and

17 white copies. We were very helpfully provided with a coloured map from

18 which it's taken. I think this one's going to be adequate for our

19 purposes, I think put on the ELMO.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Did you intend to tender that map in evidence?

21 MR. STEWART: That would be convenient, Your Honour, because it

22 will tie in with the witness's evidence.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

24 THE REGISTRAR: D89, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

1 MR. STEWART: I don't know -- can we bring it up? Gorazde is in

2 the middle -- well, it's to the left. It's the left-hand edge, about --

3 well, just below halfway down at the moment.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you zoom in?

5 MR. STEWART: Yes, please. Could we zoom in? The witness can

6 help to point out where Gorazde is. If we could zoom in on that, please.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you would already zoom in, Madam --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the left-hand side of the map you

9 can see Gorazde, at least on the map that I have in front of me.

10 MR. STEWART:

11 Q. And you referred to what you regarded as being the source of that

12 gun-fire. Could you try to -- perhaps you need a slightly finer implement

13 to do it than the one with some knob on the end. Perhaps a simple

14 ballpoint pen or something like that would be better.

15 A. Yes. I have a pencil.

16 Q. Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please refrain from writing unless

18 specifically instructed to do so. So you can point -- yes, that's fine.

19 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Yes. So my question: You referred to the source of -- what you

21 regarded as the source of the gun-fire. Can you point to where you had in

22 mind.

23 A. Yes. This is left to Kazagici, next to the Drina River. This is

24 where it was. The village of Pargani, you can't see it here, but it's a

25 rather big settlement, composed of Muslim people.

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, perhaps, with respect, would it be

2 convenient if the witness did mark?

3 JUDGE ORIE: You may instruct him to do so. Just to prevent --

4 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. Thank you very much. I

5 appreciate that.

6 Q. Would you just mark with -- let's start with an X in this case,

7 and just mark with an X where on the map that place is?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Just for one second. One second, please. Didn't we

9 have a colour code? Blue for the Prosecution and black for the Defence?

10 Was that it? Yes. That means that marking on the request of the Defence

11 should be done in black, so that we later can identify.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

13 MR. STEWART:

14 Q. Yes. Colour it black is the phrase of today, Mr. Stavnjak. Would

15 you mark with an X, please, where you say on the map that place is.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. Yes. Thank you. You had referred to checkpoints or blockades, I

18 think was the word you used. I'm afraid, I'm sorry, I introduced the

19 word "checkpoint" there. You referred to blockades. But-- I'll lead,

20 Your Honours.

21 Were the blockades of roads following that incident about the

22 protest at the pump, were they in the nature of checkpoints?

23 A. Yes. Those were checkpoints, where you could see armed civilians

24 of Muslim ethnicity.

25 Q. Well, you said armed civilians of Muslim ethnicity. You did

1 indicate a short while ago in your evidence that there were blockades by

2 both ethnic communities. Was there a sequence of blockades or checkpoints

3 by one ethnic group and then by another ethnic group, or did it all spring

4 up simultaneously?

5 A. As far as I know, according to my information, that is, there was

6 just one checkpoint at which Serbs expressed their outrage with the

7 incident involving petrol, and that checkpoint was somewhere around the

8 Orthodox church. I believe that the name of the settlement where this

9 happened was Rig [phoen].

10 Q. And was that the first response, then, to the incident, or was

11 there an earlier response by any other group?

12 A. I said that there was just one checkpoint, which was put up by the

13 Serbs. They were guarding their church in the settlement called Rijeka.

14 In the entire town, there were some dozen of checkpoints held by the

15 Muslim people. So during those three days, almost the entire town was

16 under the control of the Muslim population of the town.

17 Q. Did those incidents give you any information or knowledge that you

18 had not previously had about the availability or prevalence of weapons in

19 Gorazde?

20 A. Yes. I had reliable information. On the first or second day out

21 of the three when the complete town was paralysed, I went to a shop to buy

22 some food. At a distance of some hundred metres from my apartment,

23 towards the food store, there was an armed Muslim civilian holding a rifle

24 in his hand, who just waved his hand, indicating to me not to approach

25 him. Of course, I returned to my apartment, and after these three days

1 were over, I decided to evacuate my family from the apartment, which was

2 no longer safe. The thing that had happened was a warning to me. At that

3 time I had two young children. My older son was 7. His name is Nikola.

4 And my younger son, Stefan, was 3.

5 I put them in my car. The blockade had been over by then. And I

6 drove them towards Cajnice, together with my parents. I took them to our

7 weekend cottage in a place called Miljen.

8 Q. If we look again at that map -- it should be still up on the ELMO,

9 or perhaps it can be brought back. Yes, it's there. Now, just to get it

10 straight: The Drina River is flowing broadly northwards, north-east,

11 isn't it, through Gorazde?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And so we can conveniently refer to the west of the river as the

14 left bank and the east of the river as -- in Gorazde as the right bank.

15 That would be conventional for you, wouldn't it, Mr. Stavnjak?

16 A. Yes. The Drina flows from south to north, and as you look

17 downstream, we always called this the left bank and the other the right

18 bank. The Drina flows through the city centre, so the town is situated on

19 both banks of the Drina River.

20 Q. And the place to which you evacuated your family, Miljeno, is

21 about -- is south-east of the centre of Gorazde, about -- well, on the map

22 it's about 10 centimetres or something like that south-east.

23 A. Yes. I'm pointing towards this place called Miljen. Yes,

24 thereabouts.

25 Q. And then was there, after the events you've just described with

1 your wife and sons being moved, did you have some subsequent difficulty in

2 crossing the Drina River?

3 A. Yes. I evacuated my family from our apartment. I took them to

4 Bare. Here you see it. Bare was mostly populated -- actually, it was of

5 mixed ethnicity, but Serbs were a majority. And this is where my wife's

6 sister had her house. And this is where they were accommodated.

7 Q. And Bare is --

8 A. This was in the second half of March and the beginning of April.

9 Q. And we can see that Bare is on the right bank of the river. Did

10 you then -- a slight repetition, but you didn't give a specific answer.

11 Did you subsequently have a particular difficulty in crossing the Drina

12 River from the left bank to the right bank?

13 A. Yes. I was going to tell you about this. I was going to tell you

14 what happened next.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. When my wife and my children remained at my wife's sister's house

17 in Bare, which is in the suburbs of Gorazde, I would occasionally go back

18 to the apartment. I would go to work at the Pobjeda company. I would

19 then return to this house in Bare, and that's where I would spend nights.

20 One day, I believe this was sometime in mid-April, I went to my

21 apartment in my car to take some food that had been left there. Together

22 with me in the car were Mr. Marko Krunic, my sister-in-law's husband, and

23 Mr. Nikola Koljevic, who was a teacher at the secondary school in Gorazde.

24 We went to my apartment in my car. My apartment was on the left bank of

25 the Drina. And we set off from the right bank of the Drina.

1 I parked my car in front of my apartment. I went to my apartment

2 and collected some food items there. I spent only a few minutes in the

3 apartment. When I returned to the car and went back, since my apartment

4 is close to the first bridge on the south -- actually, on the north. There

5 are three bridges on the Drina in Gorazde. The northernmost bridge is the

6 closest to my apartment. The distance is only about 50 metres. I wanted

7 to cross that bridge. The two aforementioned gentlemen were with me --

8 Q. Can I just pause there, Witness. I know, and it isn't going to be

9 a mystery. We're going to talk about three bridges. I wonder if, please,

10 you could just mark them B1, B2, and B3. Could you write that on the

11 paper. It's not a very large-scale map, but if you could just mark those

12 bridges, starting from the north, please. If you start from the

13 northernmost bridge, just mark them as closely as you can B1, B2, and B3,

14 before we go into what happened on the bridges.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Yes. Thank you so much. Let's, then, start with what happened at

17 B1, the first bridge.

18 A. When I arrived at the B1 bridge in my car, as I wanted to cross

19 from the left bank to the right bank of the Drina River, I was intercepted

20 by a police car. The road was blocked across the bridge. There were some

21 reserve policemen in uniform and some policemen there. They didn't say

22 anything. They just waved their hands, showing to us that we should go

23 back.

24 I returned to the centre of town because the bridge B2 is in the

25 very centre of the town. Normally there was no traffic across that

1 bridge. It was mostly a pedestrian bridge. On that bridge as well, there

2 were reserve policemen in uniform and civilians. I could not cross that

3 bridge either in my car.

4 I continued along the left bank of the Drina up to the B3 bridge,

5 in a place called Bacci. When I arrived there, as I wanted to turn

6 towards the bridge, I, that is, the three of us, came across a large group

7 of people composed of Muslims, some 20 of them altogether. They all held

8 rifles in their hands. One of them, who had an automatic rifle - I could

9 see that because we were that close - ordered me to step out of the car,

10 not only me, but everybody who was in the car. We got out of the car.

11 They asked us if we had any weapons. We obviously said we didn't have

12 any. We opened the trunk. Only Mr. Marko Krunic said that he had a

13 weapon because he was an active policeman and he had a pistol.

14 The man who held a rifle in his hands said, "Okay. You can go

15 now, but never come back this way."

16 That's how I managed to cross the Drina, across the B3 bridge, and

17 I returned to Mr. Krunic's house.

18 After that, having realised what the situation was and having

19 understood the message that this man gave me as we were crossing the

20 bridge, I packed my wife and children and I took them to Miljen, which is

21 some 10 kilometres off Cajnice.

22 I believed that my children would be much safer there. I was

23 clear at that point that their safety in Gorazde would have been

24 threatened.

25 Q. In April 1992, did any difficulties arise in Gorazde in relation

1 to food availability and distribution?

2 We're leaving the map now for the moment, Mr. Stavnjak.

3 A. Yes. Sometime in mid-April -- actually, in the second half of

4 April, the companies in Gorazde worked on and off. The events that had

5 taken place in the month of March up to mid-April threatened the safety of

6 all citizens, especially of Serbs. That's why the companies worked on and

7 off. The managers who were mostly Muslims distributed food that had been

8 obtained with the money that the companies had in their accounts at the

9 time. In the second half of April, there was such a distribution of food,

10 and I must admit that even some Serbs got some of that food. However,

11 when you take into account that all the managers who were involved in the

12 distribution were Muslims, this points to the fact that most of the

13 foodstuff ended up in the hands of the Muslim population.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, could I just ask two clarifying

15 questions to the witness?

16 MR. STEWART: Yes, of course, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: One of them is the following: You said you took your

18 wife and children to Miljen at a certain distance of Cajnice. Was that

19 outside of the municipality of Gorazde? Did you leave the municipality of

20 Gorazde and then -- because I cannot see on this map where the borders are

21 between Cajnice and Gorazde.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I took my children and my wife to a

23 place called Bare first of all.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Just a second. Because Bare we now learned is close

25 to Gorazde.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You had difficulties in crossing the bridge. You

3 took them to Miljen or Miljeno; I can't see correctly. Is that within or

4 outside of the opstina of Gorazde?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Miljeno is within the municipality

6 of Cajnice and is just outside the municipality of Gorazde.

7 JUDGE ORIE: My next question would be: Did you then return to

8 Gorazde or did you stay with your wife and children in Miljeno?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I went back to Gorazde, and I

10 stayed at my sister's and brother-in-law's house, the Krunic family.

11 Because it was in the month of April and I was still working.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So you were -- you went back to Bare. You did live

13 in Bare and not in your apartment?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau has a question for you as well.

18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Sir, you said that after the

19 blockade, you said: [In English]: "After three days, special units

20 arrived with armoured vehicles." [Interpretation] Could you tell us what

21 exactly it was about.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After three days of total blockade,

23 special units from the republic secretariat for the interior came along.

24 I don't know who they were exactly, but special forces belonging to the

25 police at the level of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they

1 had an armoured vehicle and it was parked in front of the police station

2 in Gorazde. And then they organised talks between the two peoples and

3 then the blockade was lifted.

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And how many individuals were

5 there, roughly speaking, how many of them were there from those special

6 forces?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. All I know is

8 that two or three combat or rather armoured vehicles arrived, but I'm not

9 familiar with the details and I did not participate in these talks, so I

10 don't know.

11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Did you see them, those men?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And did you see the vehicles?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I did see the vehicles.

15 They were parked in front of the police station in Gorazde.

16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Were they lorries or special

17 vehicles?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Special armoured vehicles, armoured

19 police vehicles.

20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

21 MR. STEWART:

22 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, was there a violent incident in the region of -- or

23 in the municipality of Gorazde on the 8th of May, 1992?

24 A. At that stage, the tragic conflict in Gorazde had already broken

25 out, and in a village called Borak Brdo, which is situated to the north of

1 the town, extreme Muslim units entered that village, Borak Brdo, set

2 everything on fire, and killed eight Serb civilians.

3 Q. Could you please indicate, returning to the map, please could you

4 indicate on the map where that happened. We might need to scroll up a

5 bit.

6 A. Borak Brdo, I think it says on the map.

7 Q. It might be helpful for the record, Mr. Stavnjak. Could you just

8 write against that "8th May" -- oh, no, don't worry. Just -- we'll leave

9 it. It's not going to help, because of languages and so on.

10 We've spotted it. Perhaps put a ring around the name of that

11 place, please.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. When you referred to extreme Muslim units, could you explain,

14 please, what you mean by that description, "extreme."

15 A. Well, first of all, the armed individuals who officially had not

16 been armed before, because officially the JNA was still in existence. So

17 there were some paramilitary units, or extreme armed paramilitary

18 formations, since they managed to kill eight individuals of Serb

19 nationality in that village. It seems to indicate that they must have

20 been armed.

21 Q. Did that extreme group, as you've described them, did they have

22 any name or label under which they went?

23 A. As far as I know, no.

24 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what did or might have triggered off

25 that particular violent incident?

1 A. I don't know about the causes, but that was the epilogue. Those

2 Serbs in the village of Borak Brdo were killed, I mean the Serbs that were

3 caught in the village. Mostly those people were elderly.

4 Q. Do you know any of their names?

5 A. I know one name, Branko Gladanac. I'm sure about him. And I'm

6 not very sure about the others, so I wouldn't venture any names here.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, could we ask the witness, because he

8 gave a lot of answers in relation to this incident, how he learned about

9 it.

10 Did you see it yourself? Did you hear it? If you heard it from

11 someone else, who was it? When did you hear it? So to give us better

12 insight on the source of your knowledge.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It came out later. We found out

14 from the Serbs who were on the left bank of the Drina. At that time, I

15 was on the right bank myself. So half the Serbs were on the left bank,

16 because they used to live there anyway. Since war broke out in Gorazde on

17 the 4th of May, citizens of Gorazde, the Serbs in Gorazde, had no idea

18 when it would happen, and it happened on the 4th of May, and those who

19 found themselves on the left bank stayed there, and those who found

20 themselves on the right bank stayed there. So this incident on the 8th of

21 June on the left bank of the river Drina is something that we found out

22 from the citizens who were in the area, and I was in touch with them, and

23 they told me about it later on.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Did they tell you that they had been eye-witnesses or

25 did they see the results, or what was the --

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was just the results. I don't

2 suppose anybody was left alive. No eye-witnesses were left alive.

3 Everybody was killed and the entire village was set on fire.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

6 MR. STEWART:

7 Q. Witness, just to clarify. You referred to the 8th of June just a

8 moment ago. Just so that we can be clear: You've talked about 8th of May

9 and 8th of June. Which was the date of this incident?

10 A. The 8th of May. I do apologise. I did say the 8th of June, but

11 in fact it was the 8th of May.

12 Q. There's no problem, Mr. Stavnjak. I just wanted to clarify.

13 Was there, subsequent to that incident, then, on the 8th of May,

14 was there some sort of incident in a village near Vitkovici?

15 A. Yes. After that, and I can't recall the exact date because that

16 part of the territory around Vitkovici and Vitkovici itself was under the

17 control of the Muslim forces. What should be underscored here is that in

18 a place called Crkvina, which is not marked on the map, and it is in the

19 immediate vicinity of Vitkovici --

20 Q. Yes, can you show us Vitkovici? It's easy to find, isn't it?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher --

22 MR. STEWART: It's pretty much due south. Scroll down a little

23 bit.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Vitkovici was on the screen.

25 MR. STEWART: Yes. If we could just scroll down, please, and --

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is.

2 MR. STEWART:

3 Q. It comes into sight. Again, perhaps you could just put a ring

4 around Vitkovici.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. And the village that you mentioned, that I won't even attempt to

7 pronounce, to save the interpreters, that's very close to Vitkovici, is

8 it?

9 A. If I may -- well, I marked it with an X, the place called Crkvina.

10 Now, there were two Serb families in that village. They were

11 called Delic and Zmukic. 18 members of the Zmukic family and the Delic

12 family who happened to be in their houses at the time were taken to an

13 unknown place and they are still missing today.

14 Let me just stress that an elderly woman who died last year was

15 called Bozana Delic, and on that occasion four of her sons were taken away

16 and nobody knows where they ended up, not to this day.

17 Q. Did you personally know any of the Delic or the Zmukic family?

18 A. I personally knew Radivoje Delic, who was one of the four sons of

19 Mrs. Bozana Delic. He worked for the same company where I used to work,

20 at Pobjeda, that is.

21 Q. When is the last time you remember seeing him?

22 A. At some point in mid-April, at work.

23 Q. Have you ever seen him since?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What is the basis of your knowledge of what you've just described

1 in relation to the Delic and the Zmukic families?

2 A. Well, my basic knowledge is -- well, we can say that the Serb

3 people in Gorazde experienced an enormous tragedy. Large numbers of Serbs

4 were killed or are still missing to this day. Let me just stress that

5 Gorazde, at the centre of this upper Drina region, which had six

6 municipalities, Rudo, Visegrad, Gorazde, Cajnice, Foca, Kalinovik, was an

7 area which, as I said, had Gorazde as its absolute centre. And just in

8 the municipality of Foca had more citizens of Serb nationality than of

9 Muslim nationality. The second one in this respect was Gorazde, and that

10 makes this tragedy of the Serbs in Gorazde all the greater.

11 Q. Was there any sort of - at this time - any sort of camp in

12 Vitkovici or in the area of Vitkovici?

13 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could we have more precision in terms of

14 the date the witness is talking about, when this camp referred to existed?

15 MR. STEWART: Well, at this time. I'm sorry. I had intended to

16 mean exactly the time I was just talking about.

17 Q. So May 1992, was there any sort of camp in Vitkovici or in the

18 immediate vicinity of Vitkovici?

19 A. According to my knowledge, according to what I heard from Serbs

20 who remained on the territory held by Muslim units, Mr. Momo Carapic and a

21 cousin of his called Milivoje Carapic, well, they spent a period of time

22 in Gorazde, starting from the breakout of this tragic conflict up until

23 1994 or 1995. So more than two years. They spent more than two years

24 down there in Gorazde. And they told me -- I mean, they live in Cajnice,

25 and this is where I live at the moment as well. And they told me that one

1 of those collection centres for Serbs was situated at Vitkovici at the old

2 printworks, somewhere in the cellar.

3 Q. And from what you heard, was it already there in May 1992?

4 A. Yes. Straight after the breakout of that tragic conflict and the

5 first days of war, all those inhabited areas, villages, houses, inhabited

6 by the members of the Serb people, were rounded up and they were taken to

7 those smaller collection centres, such as the ones that Mr. Momo Carapic

8 and Mr. Milivoje Carapic went through. They went through that, and I

9 think they were exchanged, and that's how they survived.

10 Q. When you used the phrase which comes across as collection centres,

11 what do you mean?

12 A. What I mean is that from the start of the tragic conflict in

13 Gorazde, there was no place left for Serbs there anymore. In other words,

14 Serbs could not continue to live in Gorazde and stay alive. Their very

15 livelihood was at threat.

16 Q. You've referred more than once to the outbreak of the conflict on

17 the 4th of May, 1992. What actually happened on that day, on the 4th of

18 May?

19 A. On that day, there were some shooting incidents. The shooting

20 mostly came from the Muslim areas and were directed at the areas inhabited

21 by Serbs, and the other way around as well. So at the very start -- well,

22 it is a bit difficult to describe how it started, in much the same way as

23 the incident in relation to fuel, when there was shooting for three days.

24 At that stage it was only at night, and on the 4th of May, it never

25 stopped.

1 Q. Did you hear shooting yourself on the 4th of May?

2 A. On the 4th of May, I was at a place called Miljeno because the 6th

3 of May is St. George's Day and it is a holiday in my family, and so I went

4 up there in order to prepare for the holiday and because it is the patron

5 saint of my family, so I was at Miljen that day.

6 Q. And that's the place that we looked at before about -- well, on

7 the map it's about 10 centimetres. I forget precisely what the scale is.

8 That's the place south-east of Gorazde that we see on the map, isn't it?

9 A. Yes. Here it is.

10 Q. I think it's about 10 kilometres away from Gorazde, isn't it?

11 A. Yes, roughly speaking, 10 to 12 kilometres.

12 Q. So were you too far away that you didn't hear the gun-fire

13 yourself then; is that correct, on the 4th of May?

14 A. Yes, but I heard of it. And I heard that this was the way in

15 which that tragic conflict started. And at that time, the 4th, the 5th,

16 and the 6th of May, I was at Miljen and Cajnice.

17 And if I could just explain, because my family, my parents, my

18 children were there. We all gathered together. It is a traditional

19 custom for the Serbs, for the whole family to get together on the day of

20 the patron saint.

21 Q. Was there a point in 1992 when Serbs, for whatever reason, left

22 Gorazde in significant numbers?

23 A. Later on, at around -- on the 26th and the 27th of August, 1992,

24 all citizens of Serb nationality who found themselves on the left bank of

25 the river Drina left their homes and went in the direction of Rogatica.

1 I'm going to try and find Rogatica on the map, if I can.

2 Q. Well, we can see that fairly easily, can't we? It's at the very

3 top of the copy we've got.

4 A. Yes, yes, at the top.

5 Q. Slightly to the east of due north of Gorazde.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I think we needn't worry about marking. That's really terribly

8 easy to find. Thank you.

9 What you've described of the citizens on the left bank leaving

10 their homes and going in the direction of Rogatica, that was coordinated

11 in some way, was it?

12 A. No. There was no organisation of any sort. But I must stress one

13 event which took place when these people were leaving their traditional

14 homelands on the left bank of the river Drina. In a place called

15 Kukavice -- let me just find it.

16 Q. Well, it's about eight -- six centimetres due south of Rogatica;

17 is that right?

18 A. Yes. In a place called Kukavice.

19 Q. Put a ring round that one, please, Mr. Stavnjak.

20 A. [Marks]. In a place called Kukavice, there was a very tragic

21 event that took place there, and Serbs who were running for their lives at

22 the time -- I mean, we are talking children, women, and the elderly, and

23 they were killed in a bus. We still don't know the exact number of those

24 killed, but there is still a monument which was erected there with names

25 and surnames of all those killed in the village of Kukavice on that day.

1 It was a village which was under Muslim control. All of them were

2 civilians, women, children, and the elderly, about 30 people in all.

3 Amongst the killed was my uncle, Milisav Stavnjak, and his wife,

4 Andja Stavnjak.

5 Q. And do you know who killed them?

6 A. I don't know the names, but they were killed by members of

7 extremist Muslim units.

8 Q. What's the basis of your knowledge of that incident and those

9 killings?

10 A. Well, those were Serbs whose lives were threatened, and they were

11 withdrawing towards Rogatica. Rogatica was not very safe either. There

12 was conflict there as well. But they felt it would be safer, and they

13 were on their way to Rogatica through these villages and across the hills.

14 And when they got to Mesici, I think they got on a bus there. There was a

15 bus there at Mesici. I think the driver is still alive.

16 This is an interesting piece of information. I mean, the driver

17 who was driving all those people, he was shot in both legs. But even so,

18 he managed to get the bus as far as the territory which is safe for the

19 Serbs. And I think his family name is Jagodic. Just a moment. I will

20 remember his family name exactly. He's certainly still alive. I think he

21 is now living at Foca or Rogatica. And I can easily find out what his

22 name was. He was driving the bus at the time, and he was shot in both

23 legs but he survived nonetheless.

24 Q. And did you hear about this incident at any time from people who

25 claimed to have witnessed it first-hand?

1 A. Yes. I can tell you how I found out about it. Since my family

2 was in Miljen and Miljeno and Cajnice were swept up in this tragic

3 conflict, my children were at risk once again, and I took my children to

4 Belgrade, and at that time, on the 26th, between the 26th and the 27th of

5 August, St. Mary's Day, 1992, when I took my children to Belgrade, I found

6 myself in a place called Uzice, in Serbia, where there were lots of Serbs

7 from the right bank of the river Drina. From Gorazde, they were sitting

8 around in the park in Uzice and I heard from them about everything that

9 had happened. And there were other close relatives of mine, other uncles

10 and aunts, one other uncle and aunt survived, fortunately. So that's all

11 I have to say about that event.

12 Q. You've talked about the -- described Serbs living on the left bank

13 in Gorazde leaving and going north, in the direction of Rogatica. Are you

14 able to tell the Trial Chamber what proportion of the Serbs living on the

15 left bank in Gorazde left at that time?

16 A. I wouldn't know the percentage. However, however many Serbs found

17 themselves on the left bank at the time, they all left the territory of

18 Gorazde on the left bank of the Drina.

19 Q. What happened about the Serbs living on the right bank of the

20 Drina?

21 A. A total exodus of the Serbs of Gorazde took place 20 days after

22 the event that I have just described. This was on the 18th and 19th of

23 September, 1992. The Serbs who were on the right bank of the Drina, in

24 the town and in the suburbs and settlements around Cajnice, they all left

25 their homes and set off towards Cajnice.

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1 On the 19th of September, 1992, Gorazde became an ethnically clean

2 town, cleansed from the Gorazde Serbs. Only a few individuals remained in

3 the town in their apartments, but here we're talking a very insignificant

4 number of those.

5 Q. And what is the basis of your knowledge about what happened, as

6 you've just described, to the Serbs living on the right bank of the Drina?

7 A. The two that I have just mentioned, Mr. Carapic, Momo and

8 Milivoje, resided on the right bank of the Drina in a village called

9 Bucje. They were taken to prison, according to them. That's what I

10 learned in a conversation with them. They had been taken to prison and

11 they spent some time in that prison up until 1994, when they were

12 exchanged. But as I've already mentioned, quite a few Serbs in Gorazde

13 are still considered missing.

14 Q. There is -- well, I'll rephrase that.

15 What happened to the church of St. George in Donja Sopotnica,

16 which is in Gorazde?

17 A. The only Serbian Orthodox church that existed in Gorazde was

18 downstream from the Drina, some two and a half kilometres off the town.

19 The St. George's church in Donja Sopotnica was destroyed sometime around

20 the 1st of September, 1992. In other words, three or four days after the

21 Serbs left their homes on the left bank, the church itself is on the left

22 bank, it was destroyed, and on that same day, the parish house was also

23 destroyed, the parish house was the home of the Gorazde priests. This

24 house was in the centre of the town of Gorazde.

25 Q. The church is Donja Sopotnica -- is that more or less in the same

1 place as what we see on the map as Sopotnica, just slightly to the

2 north-east of the town of Gorazde?

3 A. If we go downstream the Drina River from Gorazde, this is where

4 you see it.

5 Q. We're going far downstream here. If we scroll the other way.

6 We've got to get it straight. Downstream is up the page and up the map to

7 the north.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Going down.

9 MR. STEWART:

10 Q. Yes. We can stop there, I think. We're just above where you're

11 indicating is the name Sopotnica.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The church is, well, in the near vicinity of where we see the name

14 Sopotnica on the map, is it, or was it?

15 A. Yes. The church was immediately next to the main road, in the

16 very proximity of the main road, that is.

17 Q. Could you just put perhaps "SG" would be useful, for St. George.

18 Just put "SG" where the church is.

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Yes, thank you. Thank you so much.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Cyrillic.

22 MR. STEWART: Yes. Well, I expect [indiscernible] -- but I don't

23 think that would cause any problems at all. Thank you, Mr. Stavnjak.

24 Q. I won't ask you to mark in the centre of town because it's --

25 well, it's not going to help very much probably, given the map.

1 I'm sorry, did you wish to add something to your answer?

2 A. If I may. I used Cyrillic, but in respect of the Court and the

3 audience here, I used Latinic in combination with the Cyrillic. So one

4 letter is a Cyrillic letter and the other is a Latinic letter.

5 Q. A man of compromise.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's a nice compromise. I fully agree. Let's

7 proceed.

8 MR. STEWART:

9 Q. Were any mosques or other Muslim buildings in the municipality of

10 Gorazde destroyed in 1992?

11 A. Yes. There were a lot of mosques in the territory of Cajnice. In

12 the town itself there was just one, but in the suburbs and in the

13 surrounding villages, there were quite a lot of them. None of them were

14 destroyed on the territory of Gorazde. I was talking about the church,

15 but I omitted saying that it was set to fire. In 1994, the security

16 services centre of Srpsko Sarajevo brought criminal charges for the

17 destruction of that church, which was under the protection of the state.

18 It was a very important historical monument, because it used to house the

19 first printing shop in the Balkans.

20 Q. From the sixteenth century; is that right?

21 A. Yes, from the sixteenth century. The church itself was built in

22 1463, so it was a fifteenth century church.

23 Q. Just to clarify. I asked you whether any mosques or other Muslim

24 buildings were destroyed in Gorazde, and you answered by saying: "Yes,

25 there were a lot of mosques in the territory of Cajnice." So you moved

1 municipalities.

2 And then you said that: "None of them were destroyed on the

3 territory of Gorazde."

4 So please, could I just ask for clarification. In 1992, or indeed

5 after 1992, first of all, were any mosques or other Muslim buildings

6 destroyed in the municipality of Gorazde?

7 A. Not a single mosque on the territory of Gorazde was destroyed.

8 Q. And what about 1992 or afterwards, so far as you can say, in the

9 territory of Cajnice?

10 A. On the territory of Cajnice, a few mosques were destroyed. I

11 don't know how many.

12 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, this is right, is it: You did national service in

13 the JNA in 1981 in Zagreb and Rijeka, both in Croatia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you were -- then you were a reserve squad leader, a JNA

16 reserve squad leader; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you joined the VRS shortly after its formation. You joined on

19 around the 20th of May, 1992; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you weren't conscripted; you voluntarily joined; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you were an infantryman throughout your time?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. How long did you stay in the JNA -- the VRS, I beg your pardon?

2 A. From the end of May to the end and the signing of the Dayton

3 Accords. In practical terms, I stopped serving in the VRS on the 1st of

4 April, 1996, when, after the Dayton, the number of staff was reduced.

5 That's how my service ended on the 1st of April, 1986 [as interpreted].

6 Q. Did you have a uniform from the first day that you were in the

7 VRS?

8 A. No. No. I wore civilian clothes.

9 Q. Yes. I think a moment ago, it's drawn to my attention, the

10 transcript said 1996. I'm not quite sure what you said. You said your

11 service ended on the 1st of April, 1986. You must have meant 1996. Or

12 perhaps you said 1996, but confirm that it ended April 1996.

13 A. 1st of April, 1996 is when my membership in the VRS ended.

14 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, both dates the first time, 1996,

15 the second time, and apparently a mistake, 1986.

16 MR. STEWART: Yes. It's all cleared up now, anyway, Your Honour.

17 Q. Back to your uniform. You say you wore civilian clothes. When

18 did you subsequently acquire a uniform, a VRS uniform, and if so, when?

19 A. Sometime towards the end of August or beginning of September 1992.

20 Q. When was the -- change of topic now, Mr. Stavnjak. When was the

21 first time in your life that you met Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik?

22 A. As I've already said, I first saw him on TV as president of the

23 then Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I believe that your question

24 is when I actually saw him in person.

25 Q. It is, Mr. Stavnjak -- we see lots of people on television we've

1 never met, I'm sure. I do mean specifically when you first met him

2 personally, yes.

3 A. Yes. I met Mr. Krajisnik for the first time towards the end of

4 1994.

5 Q. And where was that?

6 A. In Cajnice.

7 Q. And what was the occasion?

8 A. It was in late autumn 1994. The occasion was opening of the road.

9 The Serbs could not travel because the roads had been cut off, and the

10 only road that they could take was towards Pljevlje, in Montenegro. The

11 Serbs then built a road towards Ustipraca, Miljeno and Cajnice. The

12 section between Ustipraca and Miljeno was constructed --

13 JUDGE ORIE: May I just stop you there, Mr. Stavnjak.

14 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that there were reasons why a new

16 road had to be there. I think Mr. Stewart is mainly interested in meeting

17 Mr. Krajisnik and what kind of, if any, conversation you had with him. Is

18 that --

19 MR. STEWART: That's exactly right, Your Honour. May I go

20 straight to that.

21 Q. The meeting you had with Mr. Krajisnik, was it just a handshake or

22 was it a few words or was it a long chat or what? Please tell the Trial

23 Chamber.

24 A. Mr. Krajisnik came to Cajnice for the first time on that

25 occasion. That's when I met him. I shook his hand. And the occasion was

1 opening of the section of the road.

2 And why was Mr. Krajisnik in Cajnice? I can say before this Trial

3 Chamber that he had some emotions about Cajnice because his wife was a

4 native of Cajnice. Her family hailed from the area. Their family name is

5 Miletic --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Micevic. Interpreter's correction.

7 MR. STEWART:

8 Q. So you had some sort of pleasant short chat with Mr. Krajisnik; is

9 that -- say if that's the wrong description or confirm that it is.

10 A. There was a large group of people. Mr. Krajisnik was with that

11 group, representing the government of Republika Srpska, at that time, the

12 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And I myself was a member of the

13 local authorities of the municipality of Cajnice, and as such, I was

14 invited to attend the opening of that section of the road.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, we saw on the 65 ter summary that there

16 has been other occasions, at least that's what you expect the witness to

17 testify, other occasions where he met Mr. Krajisnik. If there's any

18 reason to believe that he had any substantive conversations with him or

19 anything else that might shed a different light on what we have heard

20 until now, we'd like to hear that. If not, we'll just accept that. I

21 don't know whether on the Main Board meetings whether there was any

22 subject matter which needs further attention. So I'm not preventing you

23 from doing it, but just to establish that frankly words were exchanged

24 that's --

25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm more than happy with that, and

1 perhaps I can just wrap it up by saying this:

2 Q. You met Mr. Krajisnik in 1997, 1998, at SDS Main Board meetings,

3 by which time you were yourself a member of the Main Board; that's right,

4 isn't it?

5 A. Yes. I was not a member of the Main Board at the time, but I did

6 go there because I was the deputy of -- the member of the Main Board from

7 Cajnice and I was the one who attended those sessions in 1997 and 1998,

8 and I saw Mr. Krajisnik at those sessions. Our last meeting was in 1998

9 in Cajnice at the pre-electoral rally for the interim parliamentary

10 elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina, when Mr. Krajisnik was a candidate for a

11 member of parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now, just a couple more points. I just want to

13 return to something which I had actually omitted from some time ago in

14 your evidence.

15 Just going back to the power-sharing discussions that you had in

16 Gorazde with your Muslim counterparts. You'd referred to a link between

17 your municipality and Gacko at the meeting at the Koran Hotel. When you

18 were having your power-sharing negotiations with the Muslims in Gorazde,

19 were you in touch during that time with your SDS colleagues in Gacko?

20 A. No. We just had telephone conversations in order to find out

21 whether they had agreed on establishing the local authorities in Gacko and

22 things to that effect.

23 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, we supplied a document with a view to

24 its being an exhibit, and there's a very short schedule of exhibits with

25 just two items on it. Your Honour, the thing to say about the first one

1 is it's been very recently disclosed to us under Rule 68. In the

2 circumstances, Your Honour, there's simply no practical possibility- I

3 apologise - of our obtaining a translation into English of this document,

4 which is in B/C/S or in Serbian.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I wonder how a mainly

6 English-speaking Prosecution could identify the -- I don't know what kind

7 of Article 68 disclosure it was, whether it was exculpatory or not. But

8 if so, then one would at least expect the Prosecution to know to what

9 extent it is exculpatory.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I can only assume the Prosecution have

11 resources, B/C/S resources, of which I cannot dream. That's all, Your

12 Honours. I suppose they do.

13 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, this is -- perhaps we could just first of all be

14 clear what this is. The heading -- perhaps if you read the first two or

15 three lines of the heading, then we shall get a translation of it. That's

16 the easiest way of doing it. So where it says Srpska --

17 Yes. Mr. Sladojevic suggests that I should give the ERN number.

18 It's ERN 00596529-33, for the record.

19 Mr. Stavnjak --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar --

21 I take it that you want to tender this into evidence?

22 MR. STEWART: Yes, please, Your Honour.

23 THE REGISTRAR: D90, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: D90.

25 MR. STEWART: Thank you so much.

1 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, would you just read the first -- before you get to

2 those dates, just read the first couple of lines of the heading of this

3 document and then we'll all get the translation then through the

4 interpreters?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please read slowly, because otherwise the

6 interpreters couldn't follow you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before me, I have a document that I

8 have never seen before.

9 MR. STEWART:

10 Q. Yes. My apologies. I was just checking whether that had

11 happened. I'm sorry. In all the rush, we did omit that. My apologies.

12 A. But I'll try and read it.

13 Q. I just want a heading at the moment, please, so we can ...

14 A. The Serbian Democratic Party is the heading. The War Presidency

15 of the Serbian municipality of Gorazde, number 02-163/92. Date: 11 May

16 1992.

17 Q. And then perhaps you could just go to the end of the text, where

18 you see -- just turn over the page. You see a name as the person

19 ostensibly who issued this document. Could you read that little chunk

20 there with the name and title and so on.

21 A. This document was signed on behalf of the War Presidency, because

22 on the 11th of May the tragic conflict had already started in Gorazde, and

23 the president of the War Presidency was Mr. Stanko Stojanovic. He is the

24 one who signed this document. I know the gentleman personally.

25 Q. You gave us a bit of editorial there, Mr. Stavnjak, but the Trial

1 Chamber will appreciate that that's what happened there.

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, I'm very nearly at the end with this

3 and the other exhibit, so may I, therefore, ask the Trial Chamber's

4 indulgence. It would be convenient, I suggest, if I ask the witness to

5 read this document, even though it is a couple of pages, and then we will

6 get the interpretation.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And to read it aloud at this moment?

8 MR. STEWART: Yes, please, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm just looking at the clock. We could still

10 do that before the break.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 MR. STEWART: [Previous translation continues]... Your Honour,

13 yes.

14 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, sorry. Would you do that, please. Would you just

15 read the --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Slowly.

17 MR. STEWART: -- text of this document, and the interpreters, who

18 I think now have a copy - yes - will deal with it. Thank you to them as

19 well.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have read out the heading. The

21 document is addressed to the Muslim people of the municipality of Gorazde.

22 The Muslim Assembly of the municipality of Gorazde. And it's regarding

23 response to the warning.

24 "We have received a warning from the president of the Muslim

25 municipality of Gorazde, whom the Serbian people do not recognise as

1 president, nor do they recognise his authority. In the text of the

2 wording, the so-called president has accused the Serbian leadership and

3 the Serbian people of the aggression and the beginning of conflict, which

4 is far from the truth. He probably counts on the fact that the defence of

5 the Serbian people, according to his criteria, equals aggression and that

6 the Serbian people do not have the right to defend themselves.

7 "The general public of Gorazde is familiar with the fact that the

8 representatives of the Serbian people have invested a maximum effort in

9 order to reach an agreement on the division of the municipality into the

10 Serbian part and the Muslim part of the municipality, and also in order to

11 establish two separate sets of authority, by which peace in Gorazde would

12 have been preserved.

13 "However, all of these agreements have been obstructed by the

14 leadership of the Party of Democratic Action. By their policies and by

15 their pursuit of power, they have brought the Serbian population of

16 Gorazde into a degrading position. They have introduced the rule of

17 terror and ill-treatment, and they have forced them to flee the town and

18 to organise their self-defence.

19 "However, even that was not enough. So that the Muslim extremists

20 from the ranks of the Green Berets, the Patriotic League, and the HOS,

21 under the auspices of the leadership of the Party of Democratic Action,

22 started attacking Serbian villages and killing innocent citizens, by which

23 they started an act of aggression and assumed responsibility and blame for

24 the outbreak of this conflict.

25 "Ludicrous ideas, borne out of extremists have brought about

1 chaos, in which the citizens of Gorazde find themselves at this moment.

2 And this criminal act has shown that they are consistent in implementing

3 the genocidal policy against Serbs by taking away and denying their right

4 of self-defence. This shows that the talks that they engaged in with the

5 Serb side were a sheer farce and a lie, intended to hide criminal

6 intention.

7 "The Serb people is well familiar with the activities of the SDA

8 extremists and their plans. We have at our disposal the proof to show

9 that a certain number of high-ranking representatives of the municipal

10 authorities and the SDA participated in the preparation of such acts. The

11 general public is soon going to be informed of all that.

12 "Due to this policy pursued by the SDA leadership in Gorazde,

13 innocent citizens, both Serbs and Muslims, suffer. Many of them are

14 forced to flee to safety outside Gorazde, and very often staying with

15 Serbs in Serbia, and that selfsame political leadership described those

16 Serbs as the enemies, the sworn enemies of the Muslim people, the

17 democracy, quote/unquote, advocated by Hadzo Efendic in trying to fool the

18 Serbs, has now shown its true face. There was no place for the Serb

19 people in such a democracy, no place for them as people with equal rights

20 in this municipality. We are addressing the Muslim people in this way and

21 appealing to them to renounce the policy engaged in by Hadzo Efendic and

22 his entourage, in the interest of all citizens of Gorazde, and to appeal

23 to them to reject the armed extremists and to force them to surrender

24 their weapons in order to create the preconditions for the suspension of

25 the conflict and the setting up of democratic power and authority.

1 "Otherwise, the agony which has befallen Gorazde is bound to

2 continue, an agony which has become unbearable for all our citizens. The

3 Serb people will never accept any ultimatums or threats coming from Hadzo

4 Efendic, and shall never accept his absolutist power. It will continue in

5 a defence of their age-old homes, their pride and dignity, at all costs.

6 "The very warning issued by Hadzo Efendic contains a clear threat

7 to innocent captured citizens of Serb nationality, to women and the

8 elderly, who his fighters found in their homes and who are being taken to

9 unknown locations. It is a threat that unless Serbs accept his ultimatum,

10 they will come to grief, unless they accept the ultimatum and subject

11 themselves willingly to his tyranny.

12 "In this warning, he also announces broad-based action against the

13 Serbs. This is the best proof of his so-called good intentions and the

14 so-called welfare and well-being that is on offer to Serb people. The

15 Serb people does not use, and shall never use, such methods of blackmail

16 because it is not the way we do things. At the same time, we would like

17 to stress that the Serb people, throughout history, has never been

18 frightened by blackmail and ultimatum, not even when they came from higher

19 powers than Hadzo Efendic and the likes of him.

20 "We hope that the Muslim people will find it in themselves to

21 remove the leadership which has dragged them in this sort of situation,

22 because they are the main cause of the conflict. We hope that honest and

23 deserving men will be found to lead the Muslim people and lead it out of

24 this blind alley that Hadzo Efendic has taken it to on the basis of his

25 policies, and that the right men will be found in order to reach agreement

1 with the Serbs, in order to build a peaceful, democratic life, which would

2 be in the best general interest of all of the inhabitants of the

3 municipality of Gorazde.

4 "The War Presidency and the president Mr. Stojanovic Stanko" --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would just like to point out

6 this is not normally the way we do things.

7 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm aware of that, and it should be avoided at

8 any cost. At the same time, I first of all would like to compliment the

9 witness. I think he's the first one who read two pages in such a space,

10 that at least you could follow, but I fully agree that this is not the way

11 in which interpretations should be presented. So therefore, it might need

12 some more thought on how to proceed in the near future with these kind of

13 documents. I can't resolve it right away now, but we'll pay attention to

14 it.

15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may we say, we hardly subscribe to

16 that. I must say, of course, I don't know the Serbian, but the English

17 translation sounded extremely smooth and coherent. So from a pragmatic

18 point of view, Your Honour, we -- I suggest it would seem that we could

19 now dispense with the step of having a formal translation, unless either

20 party or the Trial Chamber suggested it were a necessary step.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to give that some thought, because that

22 would deviate from the Appeals Chamber, if an Appeals Chamber ever has to

23 look at this, would be in a position where they would have to listen to

24 the -- or to read the transcript rather than to have the document in front

25 of it.

1 MR. STEWART: That's why I was suggesting, Your Honour, unless

2 there were any objection from anybody concerned, that that could be taken

3 as the -- well, Your Honour has the point. I am grateful to the

4 interpreters. I hope Your Honour appreciates that the time-scale of the

5 material being disclosed and then our being able to handle it and so on

6 has led us to this position.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.

8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I would be less than five minutes, but

9 I don't know whether that five minutes is more conveniently dealt with now

10 or after a break.

11 JUDGE ORIE: If you say it's less five minutes, I would, as a

12 matter of fact, continue and then see how far we come today.

13 MR. STEWART: Yes. Certainly, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, thank you for that. With all that, I simply would

15 like to ask you this: Is there -- did you see -- have you seen that

16 document before?

17 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness said already that it was the

18 first time.

19 MR. STEWART: I beg your pardon, if that was already said.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 MR. STEWART: May we note that what you've been reading, in fact

22 there's a handwritten document. It appears to be --

23 JUDGE ORIE: We noticed that attached to the typed out version

24 there's a handwritten document which, at least as far as the beginning and

25 the end is concerned, says exactly the same in handwriting. I take it

1 that the parties will have a look at it, whether it's the same. I don't

2 know what's the use of two different versions of the handwritten document

3 and the typed-out document.

4 MR. STEWART: I dare say, Your Honour, that was what was disclosed

5 to us and probably we haven't got to the bottom of that, but it may be not

6 be too difficult.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear if there's anything special.

8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, is there anything in that document as you've been

10 reading it that, from what you know, you would say is wrong?

11 A. I wouldn't say. I just read through it very quickly.

12 If I may, I would just like to comment on one point. This fits

13 in, so to say, with what I said in the beginning of the afternoon, that is

14 to say, that those talks with Mr. Efendic were very difficult and tiresome

15 and that there was no agreement in the end. So those people who followed

16 in my and Mr. Begovic's footsteps in the SDS in Gorazde were unable to

17 reach any agreement at all and that's why this tragic conflict broke out.

18 Of course I would like to say that Mr. Efendic, or rather, the SDA in

19 Gorazde, bears most responsibility for this tragic conflict, because the

20 responsibility is always in the hands of those who have absolute power.

21 And at the time, it was the SDA which had absolute power in Gorazde, so

22 they had to show some tolerance, and I think that they really are to blame

23 to quite a considerable extent.

24 Q. Is there anything in this document which you've just read which

25 you would say was unfair?

1 A. No. I have nothing to say about the text.

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, therefore -- thank you very much.

3 I'm handing up one other document. It's the last one. It's

4 the -- well, I'm handing up. I hope a copy will come from somewhere else.

5 It's the second item on that, well, list of two, Your Honour, tab 2,

6 ERN 00495337.

7 Q. And Mr. Stavnjak, I'm just going to read from that schedule. This

8 is described as an order by Radovan Karadzic --

9 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Your Honour. May I just intervene for

10 just a minute. This is already an exhibit. It's Prosecution Exhibit 690.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It was quite familiar to me, because it says how it

12 was distributed, wasn't it? Each municipality, how the communication took

13 place.

14 MR. HARMON: That's correct, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart.

16 MR. STEWART: That's extremely helpful, Your Honour. It saves an

17 extra exhibit number.

18 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, have you ever seen this document before?

19 A. No. This is the first time, today.

20 MR. STEWART: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Harmon, could you give us an

22 indication of how much time the Prosecution would need for

23 cross-examination?

24 MR. HARMON: I would say, Your Honour, in the area of an hour and

25 a half.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that means that --

2 MR. HARMON: That's a rough estimate, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then at this moment, Mr. Stavnjak, we'll

4 have a break for another 25 minutes, then continue for approximately half

5 an hour today, and then we hope to finish tomorrow not too late in the

6 afternoon. Yes?

7 We'll adjourn until 25 minutes past 6.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 6.02 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 6.33 p.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: On my screen, it says that we're in private or closed

11 session, but I'm not aware that we are. But perhaps it was the computer

12 monitor which said "closed session," and not the video monitor, which I

13 should have looked at.

14 Mr. Harmon, you've got 25 minutes today. I was informed that we

15 also would need five minutes on scheduling issues, as far as I understand,

16 at the end of this hearing.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon:

20 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, good afternoon.

21 A. Good afternoon.

22 Q. I would like to start, Mr. Stavnjak, first of all by showing you a

23 map. This is a map, Your Honour, that comes from Prosecution Exhibit 527.

24 And if that could be placed on the ELMO. This map, for Your Honours'

25 benefit, locates Gorazde in relation to other municipalities that had been

1 the subject of testimony in this case. I thought it would be of benefit

2 to Your Honours to see a copy of this map.

3 Mr. Stavnjak, do you have a copy of that map in front of you or to

4 your side? If you turn to your side, there's a map on the ELMO.

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: It's on the ELMO now.

7 MR. HARMON: And if the usher could put the area of Gorazde,

8 Cajnice, Foca, Sarajevo on the map -- on the ELMO. Thank you.

9 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, we can see from this, very quickly, that the

10 municipality -- Mr. Stavnjak, we can see from this particular map that the

11 municipality of Gorazde is between the municipalities of Foca, Sarajevo,

12 Rogatica, Rudo, and Cajnice.

13 My first question is: Can you tell the Court how far Gorazde is

14 from the city of Pale?

15 A. Ninety kilometres.

16 Q. And how far is it from the city of Cajnice?

17 A. Twenty kilometres.

18 Q. And from the city of Foca?

19 A. Thirty-three kilometres.

20 Q. And from the city of Rogatica?

21 A. From Rogatica, about 30 kilometres, thereabouts.

22 Q. Thank you very much. If we could turn to the next exhibit, which

23 will need an exhibit number, and that is an item that is in the upper

24 left-hand corner entitled Gorazde and bears the ERN number 00482241.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would have number?

1 THE REGISTRAR: P965, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

3 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I am corrected. I am told

4 that this is part of the census that we have distributed to Your Honours.

5 So this should be, then, P954. So I stand corrected. We don't need --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. I see that it's in the end of -- it doesn't

7 need a number.

8 MR. HARMON: It doesn't need a number, that's correct.

9 JUDGE ORIE: 965 is now free again.

10 MR. HARMON:

11 Q. Now, the reason I exhibit this for Your Honours and Mr. Stavnjak

12 is because in your direct examination testimony, Mr. Stavnjak, you

13 provided to this Chamber statistics relating to the number of Muslims and

14 the number of Serbs who inhabited Gorazde municipality, and you gave the

15 figure of 12.200 Serbs who inhabited Gorazde and 27.500 Muslims inhabiting

16 Gorazde. This map, if you take a look at it to your left, Mr. Stavnjak,

17 is based on the 1991 census, and it puts the figures as follows: The

18 number of Croats at 80, the number of Serbs at 9.843, the number of

19 Muslims at 26.296.

20 Do you accept those to be the accurate figures from the 1991

21 census, Mr. Stavnjak?

22 A. Yes. Mostly I can agree, because yes, the number of Muslims seems

23 to be correct. The number of Serbs is slightly less here. Because

24 probably some of them said that they were Montenegrins or Yugoslavs or

25 whatever. But roughly speaking, I can agree.

1 Q. The numbers of Yugoslavs who identified them as such was 789 and

2 the number of people who identified themselves as others, according to

3 this census, was 565.

4 Now, Mr. Stavnjak, if you could actually take this exhibit in your

5 hand and examine it, you will see that this exhibit identifies with

6 various dots in the colour green, colour blue principally in Gorazde.

7 Green identifies the Muslim hamlets and blue identifies the Serbian

8 hamlets. And this is, again, based on the 1991 census, Mr. Stavnjak.

9 MR. HARMON: And I bring that to the Court's attention just for

10 information purposes.

11 Your Honour, the next exhibit is not going to be shown to the

12 witness. It's presented to Your Honours and to counsel because -- and

13 it's this exhibit here that is in the same format as Exhibit 527. The

14 reason I submit that to Your Honours is because there has been some

15 testimony about streams and rivers, the River Drina, for example, certain

16 roads, and this document, Your Honours, clearly shows those particular

17 geographic features that might be of interest to the Chamber and might

18 come up in the course of the testimony of this witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It even shows some villages we couldn't find on

20 the other map earlier, Pargani, for example. And it is one of -- I'm

21 always very unhappy with these distorted pictures, but let's try to live

22 with that.

23 MR. HARMON: This needs an exhibit number, Your Honour.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P965, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Is it not one of the maps we had --

1 no, no, of course not, because it's Gorazde, yes.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. HARMON: That's correct, Your Honour. As I say, it's

4 presented to Your Honours perhaps to assist the Chamber in identifying

5 features more clearly than from other maps that the Court has at its

6 disposal.

7 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, you testified in part about the Pobjeda factory,

8 which in part manufactured explosives; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was that the only factory of military significance located in the

11 Gorazde municipality or were there others?

12 A. Yes. This was a military fabric, a military company.

13 Q. And as such, Mr. Stavnjak, that particular plant had strategic

14 significance to the potential combatants in this war; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, in your testimony, in part you testified about some extreme

17 groups in 1980. One of the groups you said was an extreme Muslim group,

18 and you testified that there had been some arrests as a result of that

19 particular group. Do you know -- can you tell us more about that group

20 than you've testified about? Was the prosecution of this group because it

21 was a group that was anti-communist and represented a threat to the

22 existing order?

23 A. As far as I know and as far as I've read in the papers, criminal

24 procedures were instituted against that group and it was proven that they

25 were engaged in the enemy activities. Some weapons were mentioned. This

1 is what I know. In any case, there is a complete file on that case on the

2 files of the then public security services of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

3 Q. I'm just trying to get a clarification from you, Mr. Stavnjak. I

4 take it from your evidence you don't know much about this particular

5 group, based on your personal knowledge. Is that correct?

6 A. No, personally I don't know much.

7 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like you, Mr. Stavnjak, to turn your attention to

8 a meeting that took place in late 1990, following the multi-party

9 elections, a meeting that you attended at the Koran Hotel in Pale. And

10 what was the purpose of that meeting?

11 A. The purpose of that meeting was to invite all the leaders of the

12 party at the local level of the Serbian Democratic Party and to reach an

13 agreement on partnership with other political parties in all the

14 municipalities. That was after the first multi-party elections had taken

15 place in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 Q. In your evidence, you gave a very detailed structure about how the

17 groups were to divide power, and you broke -- according to your evidence,

18 you broke into task forces those groups that where the Serbian Democratic

19 Party had received less than 20 per cent of the vote, and you went through

20 to a point where a task force was created for groups that went over 75

21 per cent of the electoral vote.

22 Now, when you attended the meeting that your task force, which

23 Gorazde fell into, which was less than 30 per cent of the vote, was there

24 a general discussion about how the power and the positions in the

25 municipality were to be divided, or was the group in which you were a

1 participant informed that there had been earlier discussions between the

2 higher-level leaders, Mr. Izetbegovic, Mr. Kljuic, Dr. Karadzic, about how

3 the positions were to be divided in municipalities, depending on the

4 electoral vote?

5 A. I personally attended those talks as a representative of the

6 municipality where we had less than 30 per cent of the vote. Mr. Ostojic,

7 who was the then president of the Executive Committee, gave us that

8 instruction. He told us to seek the position of the president of the

9 Executive Board and one of the departments, and that is if we won less

10 than 30 per cent of the vote.

11 Q. So Mr. Ostojic was the person who came to your group and

12 essentially told you what positions you needed to try to get in your

13 municipality, a municipality where the Serbs had won less than 30 per cent

14 of the vote?

15 A. Yes, precisely what I've just told you. He told us to try and get

16 hold of the position of the president of the Executive Board, and

17 depending on the number of the departments in a given municipality, we

18 were told to ask for 30 per cent of those departments as our participation

19 in the local power-sharing.

20 Q. When Mr. Ostojic told you what positions to seek, do you know if

21 his instructions were the result of other discussions that had taken place

22 between Mr. Kljuic, Dr. Karadzic, and Mr. Izetbegovic?

23 A. I am not aware of that.

24 Q. Mr. Ostojic was speaking on behalf of the SDS Party; is that

25 correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In your testimony, you said that: "All municipalities were given

3 directions, depending on the level of participation and the results of the

4 vote."

5 Did your municipality, you, Mr. Stavnjak, and other

6 representatives, then follow those directions that had been given to you

7 by the SDS superior body?

8 A. Yes, within the Serbian Democratic Party, yes.

9 Q. Was it normal for the municipal authorities to follow the

10 directions given to them by the higher levels of the Serbian Democratic

11 Party? Was that the standard operating procedure?

12 A. As a matter of principle, yes. However, the situation was

13 different in various municipalities. In practical terms, this was very

14 hard to implement, if not impossible.

15 Q. My question to you, Mr. Stavnjak, was: In your municipality, did

16 your municipality follow the directions given to it by the SDS

17 higher-level authorities, as you did in the meeting that took place at the

18 Koran Hotel?

19 A. Basically, we adhered to that, but this was not decisive for the

20 final outcome of the process of agreeing.

21 Q. I understand. My question is somewhat different, Mr. Stavnjak.

22 My question is: This is an example, is it not, of an occasion where the

23 SDS party in your municipality were given directions and you followed

24 them? Isn't that correct?

25 A. Yes. We can say that these were just principles. But in reality,

1 it was very difficult to implement that. It is very difficult to weigh

2 the weight of any position.

3 Q. And in general terms, and not necessarily relating to this

4 example, when the SDS higher-level authorities gave directions to the

5 municipal authorities in your municipality, it was the practice in your

6 municipality to follow those directions; is that correct?

7 A. I would say that this would be true, yes.

8 Q. Can you think of any example when the SDS higher-level authorities

9 gave a direction to a member of an SDS board -- I'm sorry, the SDS party

10 in your municipality that was not followed?

11 A. No.

12 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I know there's going to be an issue

13 raised in the last five minutes, and at this point it would be a good time

14 to break.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 Mr. Stavnjak, we have to deal with a procedural matter.

17 Therefore, we'll stop now. We'd like to see you back tomorrow, and I'd

18 like to instruct you that you should not speak to anyone, Prosecution,

19 Defence, friends, family, whoever, about your testimony, the testimony

20 you've given today and the testimony you're still about to give tomorrow.

21 Then we'd like to see you back.

22 I take it, Mr. Registrar, the same courtroom. Same courtroom,

23 quarter past 2.00 tomorrow. And I'll invite now Madam Usher to escort you

24 out of the courtroom.

25 [The witness stands down]

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

2 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. I hope it won't be a difficult

3 issue at all.

4 Your Honour, the next witness that the Defence are proposing to

5 call is a Mr. Djordjevic, no protective measures are being sought. The

6 plan had been for him to begin his evidence first thing on Wednesday

7 morning. He does in fact arrive this evening. I should tell Your Honours

8 that. It's clear that we're going to be a little while longer with this

9 witness tomorrow, but not the whole day.

10 Your Honour, the position is this: That, if I may say, it's

11 entirely acceptable and in many ways suits both Prosecution and Defence if

12 we stick to that original plan and start on Wednesday morning. But of

13 course we wanted to make sure that that had the approval of Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.

15 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I understand that this has been a

16 matter of discussion with Mr. Stewart and Mr. Tieger and that's

17 satisfactory to us.

18 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. I mean, of course, the Court - that's

19 not a surprise - is not entirely happy that we've got only two witnesses

20 this week, but scheduling might need some more attention. But given the

21 fact that we have two witnesses this week and not anyone else, then

22 there's no problem that we'll stick to the original schedule. At least,

23 assuming, Mr. Stewart, that we'll finish this witness this week. I don't

24 know -- I have not clearly in my time how much time is scheduled.

25 MR. STEWART: That shouldn't be difficult, Your Honour. And may I

1 say I accept the general remark Your Honour has made and am grateful for

2 the Trial Chamber's endorsement of that procedure for this week.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, quarter

4 past 2.00, same courtroom.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of

7 November, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.

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