Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18624

1 Thursday, 17 November 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Mr. Josse, I understood that you would like to address the Bench

11 before calling your next witness.

12 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. The position is this:

13 That I'm glad to say the next witness, Mr. Banduka, did arrive here

14 yesterday evening. As I informed the Court at 7.00 yesterday, I went to

15 see him. He had, I'm afraid to say, a number of extra documents in

16 addition to those that he had already supplied to the Defence.

17 Two translators spent the morning, at my request, trying to sort

18 those documents out, translators from the Defence team, I should hastily

19 add, and two extra tabs have been added to the bundle, in addition to

20 those documents that my learned friend Mr. Harmon had some considerable

21 time ago. That's tab 7 and tab 8, which I hope won't cause him any great

22 difficulty. However, there are a number of other documents that are still

23 being reviewed and that I need to make a final decision about. I won't be

24 in a position to do that until one of the breaks at the earliest.

25 Furthermore, Your Honour, the witness brought with him two videos,

Page 18625

1 which he said were about an hour long, of various events in the

2 municipality Hadzici that he's going to give evidence in relation to.

3 Technical staff here have been very helpful and have now put those

4 individuals onto CDs and they, too, are going to be viewed this afternoon.

5 I'm certainly not inviting the Court to -- for an adjournment.

6 Let me start that sentence again. I'm not asking for an adjournment. I

7 wish to commence my examination of the witness now. I'm simply putting

8 the Court and my learned friend on notice, if I could put it like that,

9 that further documents may yet be introduced, videos may yet be

10 introduced, before I finish my examination of this witness. His evidence

11 in chief is going to take some little time, frankly. He has a lot of

12 detail to go into.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, not knowing exactly what these documents

14 will be, of course, it very much depends if these are maps usually there's

15 no problem. If these are short decisions, we're often able to read them,

16 and then of course we'll hear from the Prosecution where they need to do

17 any further reach on them. But I did understand that it's not a request

18 for postponement. Even without hearing the Prosecution, I can imagine

19 that this is not what makes them happy, to say the least. Perhaps we'll

20 get started and see what comes our way.

21 There is, however, one other matter I'd like to briefly address,

22 that is, the presence of the witness when the Judges enter the Court. I

23 was informed that -- of course I couldn't have any knowledge first-hand,

24 that if the witness is in before the Judges have entered the courtroom,

25 that sometimes there are discussions on the Defence side which could be

Page 18626

1 overheard by the witness. I think it's very efficient to have the witness

2 in, but of course the condition would be that there's not any

3 communication that could be overheard by the witness at this moment. So

4 if the Defence would commit itself to that, then the witness may be

5 brought into the courtroom.

6 MR. JOSSE: I'd much rather not commit myself to that,

7 Your Honour. But if Your Honour is making --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have to wait until the Judges are in and

9 then wait until the -- and then wait the witness to be brought in at this

10 moment.

11 MR. JOSSE: It was Mr. Tieger's understandable concern, and,

12 frankly, the reason I entirely agree with him is, of course, neither

13 Mr. Tieger nor I understand what is being said. And so we can't tell

14 whether what is audible may in some way affect the witness's testimony,

15 even in some small way. And that's the particular mischief of it, or the

16 particular problem.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, perhaps when I said the condition would

18 be that there's not any communication that could be overheard by the

19 witness at this moment, perhaps it would say everyone is silent until the

20 Judges enter the courtroom. Then we could start right away. And of

21 course if there would be any concern about eye contact or whatever, then

22 we'll hear from that.

23 MR. JOSSE: I'm certainly more than prepared to try to -- could I

24 urge the Court staff to bring the witness in as close to the Judges'

25 arrival as possible?

Page 18627


2 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Krajisnik's, I think --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Krajisnik.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Krajisnik is saying that last-minute communication

6 between him and his counsel is essential. But so long as the witness is

7 brought in, shall we say, no more than a minute before the Judges, then I

8 can't see any objection. But the problem is that on occasions witnesses

9 can be in here for some considerable minutes before the Judges arrive.

10 JUDGE ORIE: For various reasons, the Judges, for technical

11 reasons, sometimes we have to wait, sometimes we are late for whatever

12 reason.

13 MR. JOSSE: I was certainly, with respect, not being critical at

14 all, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No. We'll further discuss the matter with the

16 Registry and then see how we resolve the matter, and it's clear -- it's

17 good that you have brought to our attention that sometimes the witnesses

18 is in for a considerable longer time than just 30 seconds and we should

19 take that into account when finding a solution. Thank you very much.

20 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Are you ready to call your next witness?

22 MR. JOSSE: I am, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That would be Mr. Banduka, if I'm well-informed.

24 MR. JOSSE: That's correct.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 18628

1 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Banduka, I take it. Mr. Banduka,

2 before you give evidence in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and

3 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the

4 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is now handed

5 out to you by Madam Usher and I'd like to invite you to make that solemn

6 declaration.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Banduka. Please be seated.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, Mr. Josse, counsel for the Defence, will

14 start the examination.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

16 Examined by Mr. Josse:

17 Q. You come -- your name is Vidomir Banduka; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You are from the Hadzici municipality?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You were educated in that municipality up to elementary level and

22 then went to secondary school in Sarajevo?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You graduated from law school in Sarajevo and then you had a

25 number of jobs, and eventually ended up working in a construction company

Page 18629

1 called, I think, Ingrap, in Hadzici; is that right?

2 A. Yes. But before Ingrap, I worked in the company Zoi 84, which was

3 the organising committee for the winter Olympics in 1984, 1985, and it was

4 after that that I started working for Ingrap.

5 Q. You were a member of the League of Communists when you were

6 younger?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you were, in fact, involved in various youth work throughout

9 the former Yugoslavia, and you were the leader of a --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- youth work called the Slobodan Princip Seljo?

12 A. Yes. In 1979, in Serbia.

13 Q. As we will hear in due course, you joined the SDS in 1990?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You were a member of the electoral commission in Hadzici for the

16 November 1990 election?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That obviously prevented you being a candidate in that election.

19 A. Yes. It was incompatible for a person to be a candidate on a list

20 and a member of the local electoral commission.

21 Q. You were also secretary of the SDS Municipal Committee, and that

22 allowed you to follow municipal politics in Hadzici very closely?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When the war broke out, you in fact joined the VRS for a number of

25 months?

Page 18630

1 A. Yes. I was in the Army of Republika Srpska from July to the end

2 of December 1992.

3 Q. And then you were nominated as president of the Executive

4 Committee of Hadzici, a position that you held until after the war?

5 A. Yes. At the Municipal Assembly session of Hadzici, I believe it

6 was on the 26th of December, 1992, that I was elected president of the

7 executive committee of the municipality of Hadzici, and I continued

8 holding this position until I moved -- until we moved out in March 1996.

9 Q. You moved out in March 1996 after the Dayton Agreement?

10 A. Yes. As it is well known, the Dayton Accords were signed on the

11 21st November 1996 and we moved out before the -- by the 6th of March,

12 1996, or rather, I apologise. The Dayton was signed on the 21st of

13 November, 1995. I misspoke.

14 Q. And presently, you in fact have a job as an advisor in the

15 ministry of security within the BiH government?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The Court can see from documentation that it has in its possession

18 that until the war in Hadzici there were approximately 24.000 people, 63

19 per cent of whom were Muslims, 26 per cent Serbs, and about 3 per cent

20 Croats. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Prior to the multi-party system, how were jobs divided within the

23 municipality, so far as ethnicity was concerned?

24 A. At the time of the single-party system, there existed the

25 so-called ethnic key, as we used to call it colloquially, which meant that

Page 18631

1 all the institutions had to reflect the make-up of the population, the

2 ethnic make-up of the population in the area, which meant that, depending

3 on the number of -- or the size of the Muslim, Serb, or Croat population,

4 an adequate number of position was assigned to them. This was an

5 inofficial quota system. It wasn't really introduced officially. It was

6 the time when the Communist Party was consulted on all these matters and

7 it was the Communist Party that then solved these matters from within its

8 structure.

9 Q. And did any particular ethnic group, in reality, hold a

10 disproportionate number of top jobs?

11 A. First of all, one needs to explain the situation. The

12 municipality as local government did not have competence over all

13 institutions. It shared its competences with the town itself, because the

14 municipality was part of the town of Sarajevo. Sarajevo consisted of ten

15 municipalities. So there was certain competencies that rested upon the

16 town itself, some on the municipality, and some on the republican level.

17 Now, as for the distribution of power, it depended on an

18 individual's influence, whether he was going to be appointed to a position

19 or not. Based on my experience - I was a long-time youth activist - I can

20 tell you that the major positions were mostly given to the Muslims, or

21 rather, to put it this way, they got the largest piece of the cake.

22 Q. In what way did that manifest itself?

23 A. It manifested itself as follows: This will perhaps sound as my

24 own assessment; however, the municipal authorities did not consist only of

25 the municipal government and municipal administration, but also through

Page 18632

1 the presence of significant companies in the area, like we had the

2 Coca-Cola factory, we had the wood-processing industry, we had the repairs

3 and maintenance complex, we had two military institutions. So power had

4 to be measured also through the administration of these economic

5 resources. One needed the money. In the communist era, the politics

6 exercised its power through crucial, critical persons who were appointed

7 into the companies that proved to be economically strongest.

8 Q. Was there any resentment on the part of any ethnic group in

9 relation to the old system?

10 A. You see, by the very logic of things, Serbs who were in the

11 minority always felt not really endangered or vulnerable in social terms,

12 but I will give you the following illustration.

13 The Coca-Cola factory was opened in 1986, and ever since its

14 inception, a Muslim was its manager. There was this Hasan who used to be

15 its manager for a period and then they called it, as a joke, Hasanaginica.

16 So there was always a Muslim who was a manager, like the company for the

17 production of concrete structures. There was also a Muslim.

18 Now, politically speaking, the Municipal Assembly was the place

19 where most of the power was concentrated under that system. As far as I

20 can remember, the president of the committee was always a Muslim. It was

21 only in the period starting from 1984 that two year and then afterwards a

22 one-year term of office, rotating office, was introduced, which meant that

23 one person could only be elected for a one-year term of office and then

24 re-elected once again, rather than before, when, according to the earlier

25 practice, they could have held the position for ten years or more.

Page 18633

1 Q. The situation changed in 1990 with the creation of the multi-party

2 system. Which was the first party to be formed in Hadzici?

3 A. The first party to be formed in Hadzici was the Party of Political

4 Action, or the SDA, just as was the case on the level of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, where in mid-May the SDA was the first political party

6 to be formed. Therefore, in Hadzici, first the SDA was formed, then the

7 HDZ, and only after these two ethnic parties were formed, the SDS was

8 established too.

9 Q. Did you attend the founding meeting of the SDA in Hadzici?

10 A. Yes, together with several of my colleagues and friends, I

11 attended this meeting, or rather, this rally that was held in a gymnasium,

12 in a sports hall, that was jam-packed with people. All the then leading

13 figures of the SDA attended this rally, such as Mr. Alija Izetbegovic,

14 Mr. Cengic, Silajdzic, Mr. Mehmed, and so on and so forth. I remember

15 this particular rally very well. At one point, an acquaintance of mine

16 came to fetch me to the first row, so that I was able to see with my own

17 eyes and participate in this inaugural meeting, in a way, which was

18 characterised by all the usual aspects that one such meeting would entail.

19 It was ethnically coloured, so to speak. There were flags, national

20 costumes.

21 I remember late Izetbegovic, who stated, "We were afraid about

22 Hadzici because they had told us that it was a communist nest. However,

23 this particular meeting proves that we have conquered Hadzici."

24 So this was the atmosphere of this particular rally.

25 Q. How many people attended the rally?

Page 18634

1 A. Close to 4.000 people, I believe.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, may I ask you one thing? The Chamber has

3 heard evidence on, well, a lot of municipalities. How much detail do we

4 need in this respect? It's clear that on the creation of the parties,

5 that usually in the municipalities, sections of that, parties were

6 established, that some big shots, to say it, appeared, that some speeches

7 were made. It also -- I think already we heard 10, 15, or 20 times that

8 it was the SDA that was established first, and only then the HDZ.

9 I wonder whether it would be pivotal for this case whether there

10 were 4.000 people in that hall who listened to it or whether it was

11 big-shot A, B, and C, or C, D, and F which were present. Of course, I'm

12 not saying that it could not be important information, but then it's like

13 in children's magazines, where you get a picture, where you say "find the

14 animals in this picture" or "find the --" It's more or less -- all the

15 remainder seems not to be of great importance. Would there be a

16 possibility to -- perhaps I'm more leading. I'm looking to Mr. Harmon.

17 But if you would have asked, "Is it true that in the sports hall 4.000

18 people were present and Mr. Alija Izetbegovic?" I can imagine that

19 Mr. Harmon would not be that much disturbed by such leading and it would

20 certainly make progress quicker.

21 MR. JOSSE: Three short comments, Your Honour. The first was

22 exactly that, if I can lead, it will clearly be much quicker.


24 MR. JOSSE: Secondly, I'm going to move on so far as this witness

25 is concerned. And thirdly, I'll think about it in future, if I may.

Page 18635

1 JUDGE ORIE: For example, if you consider the word -- I can

2 imagine that you say that the type of language used, the word "conquer" is

3 a specific meaning. I'm not stopping you from getting any details that

4 are of relevance, but I'm urging you to especially focus on that. Please

5 proceed.

6 MR. JOSSE: I think, then, we can deal with it this way:

7 Q. So far as the HDZ is concerned, they were mainly in the village or

8 town of Tarcin is that right?

9 A. Yes. That was where the Catholic church was, and I think that's

10 where they were concentrated. Most of them lived. But it was far from

11 the rally that the SDA party had.

12 Q. And thereafter, the SDS founding meeting was in front of about a

13 hundred sympathisers. And just dealing with the main players within the

14 municipality, the president of the SDA Municipal Board was a man called

15 Mustafa Halilovic [sic], who later became president of the municipality

16 after the elections; is that correct?

17 A. Yes. But his name is not Halilovic. His name is Dzelilovic.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to ask a question.

19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm sorry for interrupting

20 you, but before you proceed, I would like to ask you a question from the

21 witness on one specific point. I would like to know, Witness, before the

22 appearance of this situation of multi-party situation, you gave us to

23 understand very well that there was a Muslim majority, that there were

24 Serbs constituting 26 per cent. We understood that there were

25 inequalities, some abuse of power, or people exceeding their power.

Page 18636

1 So I would like you, rather than keeping to general facts, you try

2 to make me understand exactly what was happening locally. What have you

3 seen yourself? Who could have intervened in such a way that tensions

4 arose? Or, on the contrary, in everyday life, was something going to

5 foreshadow these tensions and that they were going to take place? Do you

6 understand my question, first of all?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood your question, but

8 I don't know which period of time you have in mind. Do you have in mind

9 the period before the multi-party elections, therefore, before 1990, or do

10 you have in mind the period actually afterwards, before the outbreak of

11 the armed conflict?

12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] You have understood me. It was

13 just before the elections, the multi-party elections, before the

14 establishment of the SDA, just before. What happened? How did people

15 live? Was it possible to say that anybody was abusing his position, that

16 the Muslims were exaggerating on losing their position, or did somebody

17 endeavour to try and keep a balance, maintain a balance? Thank you for

18 your answer.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've understood. When for some

20 20 or 30 years you always have a Muslim as president of the committee,

21 then the other ethnic groups feel somehow put into the background. Or

22 another example: Where you always have managers of large companies coming

23 from one ethnicity. I've understood you fully. The ethnic quota system

24 was respected to a certain extent; however, it wasn't the same. The

25 position of a president of a municipality is not the same as the

Page 18637

1 vice-president or the position of the president of the Executive Committee

2 compared to that of the deputy president.

3 The situation was such that the Serbs were given less influential,

4 less attractive positions, because the president of the municipality is a

5 professional who has power in his hands, whereas the deputy works on a

6 voluntary basis, doesn't have any power, and is merely there to satisfy

7 the quota system.

8 Similar problems started emerging in Yugoslavia as early as in the

9 beginning of the 1980s. When I was part of the youth brigade in 1979,

10 there was this feeling of brotherhood and unity. However, when I was

11 doing my military service in 1981, in March, there were the first protests

12 by the ethnic Albanians in Serbia. It was in that period that in the

13 general area of Yugoslavia, some misunderstandings emerged which caused

14 difficulties. It was in its inchoate form at the time.

15 We all know how meaningful a cemetery is to people. In Hadzici,

16 some 50 metres from the Municipal Assembly building, the Serbian Orthodox

17 church was standing, and next to it was the Orthodox cemetery.

18 In 1978 or 1979, someone came up with the idea that the cemetery

19 should be moved out in order for a residential building to be built on its

20 spot. Do you understand what I mean? The Serbs were forbidden from

21 burying their dead on that spot, and they were in fact ordered to relocate

22 the remains of their dear ones to a different site on the outskirts of the

23 town. Can you imagine what it means for a nation which in this way loses

24 its history, its traces, dating back 100 years, as if they could not have

25 come up with a different solution?

Page 18638

1 It was already at that time that the Serbs felt insecure, they

2 felt that they were being pushed into the background, that they were being

3 marginalised.

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.


6 Q. The leader of the HDZ was someone called Velimir Maric?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the leader of the SDS was someone called Ratko Radic?

9 A. Ratko Radic, yes.

10 Q. And he in fact died a few years ago?

11 A. Yes. He died, and so did his wife. She had cancer.

12 Q. So you've told us that you joined the SDS soon after that founding

13 meeting; you got this job on the electoral commission. And perhaps, if

14 you could be given the bundle of exhibits relevant to your evidence, you

15 could turn to tab 1, please.

16 This is a list of candidates from the various parties that

17 participated in that election, which we can see --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- the 1st of November, 1990. The document that you've got in

20 front of you, obviously the original one in B/C/S, where did you obtain

21 that document from? Let me ask that slightly differently. I don't think

22 we're worried about where you obtained it from. What is that document? Is

23 it from some sort of official publication?

24 A. Yes. This is a document dated the 1st of November. I think the

25 elections were held on the 17th of November. These are the lists of

Page 18639

1 candidates of all the parties participating in the elections in 1990 in

2 Hadzici municipality. This document was published by the Vecernje Novine

3 newspaper. This was the official publication of the city of Sarajevo, and

4 that's where these lists were published.

5 MR. JOSSE: Could that be given a number, please, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D103, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Josse, we now know exactly where it was

9 published. Of course, it's not a complete list. It starts halfway - the

10 first part - it seems. I do not mind that much. I don't know what the

11 purpose is of presenting it in evidence. So therefore, you see it starts

12 with the second list of candidates. That's the SDS. Then the third list,

13 SDA. Fourth list, fifth list. For the first list, we have only the last

14 couple -- but I don't know what the purpose is. So I'm not complaining,

15 but since the witness said that this was the complete list of candidates.

16 MR. JOSSE: I'm going to move on, if I may. Thank you for that

17 observation, which is absolutely right, Your Honour.

18 Q. Following that election, the results were basically as follows:

19 There were 50 deputies in the Municipal Assembly; 23 of them were won by

20 the SDA, 12 by the SDP, 11 to the SDS, and two small parties had three

21 deputies between them. Is that correct?

22 A. I think the SDS had 10 and the SDP 11. SDA was the first party;

23 SDP was the second; and the SDS, the third, according to the number of

24 candidates.

25 Q. And what about the HDZ? I didn't mention them. Did they win any

Page 18640












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18641

1 seats?

2 A. No. The HDZ did not win a single seat.

3 Q. And the functions of the municipality were divided accordingly.

4 Mr. Jelavic [sic] became the president of the municipality. The president

5 of the Executive Board went to a Mr. Samoukovic from the SDS. The

6 secretary of the Assembly went to a Mr. Muriz from the SDA. And the

7 Executive Board was split three Muslims, three Serbs. Is that right?

8 A. Just a correction. It's not Jelavic, but Dzelilovic. We've

9 already mentioned him.

10 In general, there was an agreement at the level of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina that the party that won would get the post of president of the

12 Assembly, and the second-ranking ethnic group would get the place of the

13 Executive Board. And in this case, it was the SDA and the SDS

14 respectively. Elsewhere, positions were allocated according to the number

15 of seats won in the elections.

16 Q. And we could, if need be, go through some of the other positions

17 that were decided at that time. But perhaps more importantly, tell the

18 Chamber, if you would, about the power-sharing agreement that the parties

19 entered into, please.

20 A. I've already said what the general agreement was. I think I

21 mentioned that in the document. Apart from the two leading posts, which

22 we've already mentioned, I think the SDS got the post of secretary for

23 town planning and building construction, and national defence.

24 Q. Let me stop you. It may be my fault, but I meant power-sharing

25 agreement in terms of actually running the municipality rather than the

Page 18642

1 jobs that were given to individuals. Put another way: Cooperation

2 between the parties immediately after the election in order to secure the

3 smooth running of the municipality. Tell the Chamber about that.

4 A. Initially - I remember the Assembly well - I was not a member of

5 the Assembly. I was not elected a member of the Assembly, that is. But

6 the secretaries of the municipal party boards were able to attend the

7 sessions and participate in the work, but they did not have the right to

8 vote. They had no decision-making power. And this was what usually

9 happened.

10 The first constituent session of the Assembly was very difficult.

11 It was immediately evident that it was very difficult to reach solutions.

12 A special issue that arose, I remember well, was that of the secretary of

13 the Municipal Assembly, because certain assemblymen from various parties

14 objected to the candidate. They challenged whether he was qualified. But

15 then this was overcome, and he was appointed.

16 I can conclude, firstly, that in 1991 only six sessions of the

17 Municipal Assembly were held, and each one was more difficult than the

18 last. It became increasingly difficult to reach agreement on every issue

19 that the Assembly debated. I think that the Party of Democratic Action,

20 feeling that it was the winner, wanted to change everything that had been

21 inherited from before. They wanted to replace people, appoint new people

22 everywhere, so that it was very difficult for the Assembly to operate. But

23 until October, I think, 1991, there was some sort of consensus, and those

24 decisions that the Assembly had to make were made, albeit with problems.

25 However, then the problems came to a head and then the assemblymen

Page 18643

1 of the Serb Democratic Party walked out of the session.

2 Q. You've gone a little past where we're at at the moment. I want to

3 ask you about two specific problems, briefly, if you can. First of all,

4 is there any difficulty in relation to the replacement of existing staff

5 in various sectors that the municipality had some control over, for

6 example, education and health?

7 A. Yes. That's just what I wanted to say when I said that they

8 wanted to replace people everywhere. The most drastic example was that of

9 schools. There were four schools in Hadzici, three primary schools and

10 one secondary school. Due to circumstances, the Serbs had problems with

11 staffing and we were not in favour of the idea that everything that had

12 been inherited from before should be simply swept away, whereas the Party

13 of Democratic Action had quite a different idea. They even wanted to

14 replace staff in institutions over which the Municipal Assembly had no

15 competence, such as the secondary school, for example, which was founded

16 by the city of Sarajevo, or the health centre, where the Municipal

17 Assembly was not competent but, rather, the city. They insisted on

18 signing an overall agreement, a blanket agreement, where everybody could

19 be replaced whether we liked it or not, and this is where we diverged in

20 our viewpoints.

21 First of all, we did not want to overstep the bounds of our

22 authority; and secondly, we did not wish to replace everybody everywhere,

23 all the staff that were already in place. And that was why we were unable

24 to reach any decisions.

25 Q. What about mobilisation in relation to the Croatian war? How was

Page 18644

1 that dealt with by the parties and the municipality in general?

2 A. Well, you see, the war in Croatia certainly had an influence

3 everywhere in Bosnia and Herzegovina, including Hadzici municipality. We

4 bordered on Kiseljak municipality, Kresevo, Busovaca. These were all

5 majority-Croat areas. In my opinion, the war in Croatia introduced

6 disquiet. One of the main stumbling-blocks, apart from the problems I've

7 already mentioned, was also, for the reasons I've mentioned, the fact that

8 there were increased activities regarding mobilising reserve policemen.

9 We who walked out of the assembly demanded that the Assembly be informed

10 by the local police chiefs of the ethnic composition of the police force

11 and the reserve police force.

12 According to our information, the ethnic balance had been altered,

13 or rather, it was in favour of the Muslims by 4 or 5 per cent. And you

14 can imagine the disquiet felt among the Serbs, who were already in the

15 minority, when they saw that the numbers of policemen were increasing and

16 that the number of Muslim policemen was increasing in relation to the

17 number of Serb policemen. We wondered why so many policemen were being

18 mobilised. However, we were not allowed even to put this on the agenda.

19 We wanted to have this information presented and debated; however, we were

20 outvoted. This is another reason why the SDS assemblymen stopped

21 attending the Assembly sessions as of October.

22 Q. To make your point, you wrote a letter to various newspapers and

23 so on and so forth, signed by the president of the assemblymen's club of

24 Hadzici and Mr. Stevan Janic, and also by the aforementioned Mr. Radic; is

25 that correct?

Page 18645

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tab 2, please.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D104.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, just for my information, the list of

6 candidates, will that get any further attention as it had now?

7 MR. JOSSE: No.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Was it translated on your request?

9 MR. JOSSE: It was.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Josse, I wonder, what's the use of -- I

11 mean, if we are informed about the outcome and that more posts were given

12 to Muslims or less or et cetera, why we should be confronted with six

13 pages of names, someone has to type them all out, unless there's any

14 specific -- I remember that we had one municipality where you could

15 clearly see that all the HDZ candidates came from a certain village which

16 then, of course, supports the testimony which says that very much --

17 Muslims, that they were concentrated living in that village, then it's

18 clear. But what role could it play that number 25 on the SDS list was -- I

19 mean, if no further attention is paid to it, then at least, unless you

20 convince me of the opposite, I'd consider it a waste of time translating

21 it, copying it, reading it, and then it's still incomplete.

22 MR. JOSSE: Subject to anything Mr. Krajisnik says -- could I --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't want to spend too much time on it, but

24 I'm just surprised by the ...

25 [Defence counsel confer]

Page 18646

1 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Krajisnik makes a point that may become relevant

2 later.


4 MR. JOSSE: But Your Honour, could I say -- could I just say, I do

5 want to make this observation. I ultimately take absolute responsibility.

6 But in my own defence, this was the very first document that the Defence

7 have submitted to the CLSS. We were so pleased to have a document here in

8 advance, well in advance of a witness attending, that perhaps in our

9 rather -- in our over-enthusiasm, we submitted it. I do apologise.

10 That's all I can say.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You kiss your first girlfriend only once. Please

12 proceed.

13 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I was about to turn actually to some

14 guidance from the Chamber. Tab 2 is quite a long document. All of it is

15 to a greater or lesser extent relevant. I appreciate that the Chamber

16 will read this document in due course. For my part, I'm happy to invite

17 the witness to summarise it. But if the --

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think that would be a good idea, and we would take

19 our time in the first break to read the translation.


21 Q. Could you -- you're familiar with this document, aren't you,

22 Mr. Banduka?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you summarise it, please, to the learned Judges.

25 A. Well, you see, first of all, the document was addressed to the

Page 18647

1 public, and it contains all the objections and everything that had

2 happened in previous sessions, the misunderstandings, the impossibility of

3 reaching agreement, outvoting, marginalising, and so on. Because it was

4 impossible to reach any further agreements at the Assembly, the SDS

5 assemblymen walked out, but the assembly continued sitting, without the

6 SDS assemblymen. The aim of this document was to acquaint the general

7 public with the fact that the conditions in the Assembly were irregular,

8 that the Assembly was working under irregular conditions. And we did not

9 wish our walking out to be understood as objectionism or some other form

10 of political struggle. We simply wanted to inform the general public, and

11 this was the only path open to us, to send a letter to the general public

12 explaining our behaviour and explaining everything that I've already said

13 here. This document sets out all these facts, all this evidence, what we

14 thought, what we feared, our concerns that the Assembly would be

15 transformed into something else.

16 In such difficult times, you can imagine the representatives of a

17 party which has entered a coalition with another party leaving an assembly

18 and their coalition partners disregarding this event. Muslims from other

19 parties had already joined them, and they now had a majority in the

20 Assembly. With only 23 votes, of course, they could not have the

21 majority.

22 This is what we wanted to point out in this letter. We wanted to

23 point out that we had been marginalised and that the other side didn't

24 even care about us any more. That was the essence of this letter.

25 Q. Was the letter published in Oslobodjenje?

Page 18648

1 A. I don't remember, because Oslobodjenje was already polarised. It

2 was no longer a publication expressing an editorial policy oriented toward

3 all three constituent nations. It was more in favour of some. I remember

4 that Ekspres Politika in Belgrade published this letter. We wrote

5 Oslobodjenje on more than one occasion, trying to have this letter

6 published, and we even invoked the law on the press. They had to respond

7 to our request. But I'm not sure I'm a hundred per cent confident of

8 this, but I don't think that Oslobodjenje published this letter.

9 Q. At the time of the departure from the Municipal Assembly of the

10 Serbs, did you personally experience any intimidation by politicians from

11 other political parties?

12 A. Well, you see, I have to clarify this. After this Assembly

13 session, when we walked out, another Assembly session was held. In our

14 representatives' club, we agreed, and I have to say that this assembly no

15 longer resembled a real Assembly. So I went there alone once again to put

16 forward our demands and to try and reach some kind of agreement. The

17 atmosphere was extremely unpleasant. I was jeered at. An assemblyman

18 stood up and said, "Go and train Chetniks. You're not going to

19 participate in this assembly any more."

20 I asked the president of the Assembly for protection. However,

21 this turned into a circus, and of course I walked out. This multi-ethnic

22 assembly, I think, never met again.

23 Q. The SDA then set up an organisation called the Defence Council; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes. I link this with the last point I've made. I think that the

Page 18649

1 Assembly no longer met because certain problems arose within the SDP

2 party, which also probably had a majority of Muslims. And I think that

3 they felt it was not in order for the Assembly to continue sitting without

4 the SDS. Circumstances became more and more complex, and I don't know

5 how, but in some informal way they constituted this Defence Council. It

6 was more like a group of citizens. I attended it once. I think the

7 intention was to cover up the gap that had now emerged with the failure of

8 the Assembly to meet.

9 There was some kind of organ that could be pointed at as doing

10 work, although I don't think it was a proper organ.

11 Q. What evidence, if any, were the Serbs receiving of the formation

12 of paramilitary groups by the Muslims at this time?

13 A. Well, you see, first of all, as I've already said, there was a

14 drastic increase in the reserve police force numbers. We Serbs became

15 suspicious. You can imagine in such times somebody organising something

16 without you. Of course you couldn't trust it. And then there were

17 rumours going round, openly in town, that there was some sort of patriotic

18 league, Green Berets. In our area, there was a centre, or rather, there

19 was a police academy. It was a school for training policemen, that is.

20 And as there were no Serbs there, it was a walled compound. It used to be

21 a hospital, and some ten years before the war it was transformed into a

22 police school, as I've already said.

23 We received information, and this was common knowledge. People

24 were saying all over town that paramilitary units were being trained

25 there, which were officially neither part of the MUP, the police force,

Page 18650

1 nor the army.

2 Q. In terms of the arming of both sides as war approached, what

3 effect was there in the municipality due to its closeness to various

4 barracks and arms depots?

5 A. Yes. In the municipality of Hadzici, there were four military

6 facilities, that's to say four barracks. The largest one was in

7 Zunovnica, some two to three kilometres from the centre of town. It was

8 at the foot of Mount Igman, spreading over some 30 hectares. There were

9 many arms depots that were dug in under the ground. Then the Usivak

10 barracks, Rijeka barracks, and then the military academy for cadets in

11 Pazaric.

12 The Zunovnica barracks, as far as I know, had a large amount of

13 arms belonging to Territorial Defence. You know that within the military

14 structure there was Territorial Defence, which was a sort of a secondary

15 military force. As far as I know, based on an order by the Secretariat

16 for National Defence of Yugoslavia, the army was stored there and guarded

17 and protected by the soldiers who were deployed to that particular

18 facility. In fact, all there was to the barracks was the arms depot.

19 In view of the barracks' location and in view of the fact that it

20 was the end of 1991 and early 1992, it was very difficult to maintain this

21 facility, because it was surrounded by a forested area and the mountain.

22 It was quite easy to make a forced entry into the barracks to steal

23 weapons and take them away.

24 As for the other two barracks, the one in Krupska Rijeka, as far

25 as I remember, also had Territorial Defence arms. It was fully surrounded

Page 18651

1 and even attacked on the 12th of May, I believe it was. According to the

2 information obtained subsequently through the Red Cross, when exchanges

3 were made, only 12 soldiers had been guarding the barracks, two of which

4 were killed, and the rest were taken prisoners. And then eventually they

5 were exchanged through the Red Cross.

6 I'm telling you all this because there were various stories

7 circulating in the pre- and post-Dayton period about the Muslims not

8 having had any weapons. The existence of these barracks and the amount of

9 weapons contained therein made it possible for anyone to become very well

10 armed.

11 Q. Just one follow-up question in relation to that. At Pozaric what

12 type of arms were stored there?

13 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you anything specific about the Pozaric

14 barracks. As I've already indicated, this was the military training

15 ground. It was actually the military academy barracks, because I myself,

16 as a recruit, went over there for various drills. It was also enforced

17 encirclement, as far as I know. When the army started retreating from

18 Croatia, an artillery regiment, I believe it was, from Zadar, withdrew to

19 this particular barracks. This was a military formation, with heavy

20 weaponry, and we know what a regiment is.

21 I spoke to a person who was an expert in weapons. When the JNA

22 left the barracks, it is well known that it was on the 18th of May that

23 the army withdrew from Bosnia, and the barracks remained encircled, and

24 the Muslim side subsequently allowed them to leave the area. There were

25 some 300 cadets in the barracks who -- most of whom hailed from Serbia,

Page 18652

1 Yugoslavia, therefore. I believe there were cadets from other countries

2 who were there to undergo training.

3 Therefore, the barracks was evacuated, according to this man who

4 told me so, Vidojevic, Branko. All the manpower was evacuated, but all

5 the heavy weaponry that was stored in the barracks stayed there.

6 Q. Within the confines of the population, at least the Serb

7 population of Hadzici, fear took hold, is that right, towards the end of

8 1991/1992, and guards and watches were organised all over the place?

9 A. Yes. As the situation, generally speaking, on the level of

10 Yugoslavia, became more complex, this was reflected in every single

11 municipality. Everyone was afraid of everyone else. I resided at

12 Hadzici, and my mother had been going to the marketplace in Grbavica, in

13 centre of Sarajevo, for years, selling groceries. At least two times a

14 week, we went to Sarajevo.

15 I remember this one occasion - I can't remember the date - from my

16 own place of residence to this spot in Grbavica, we had to cross some 15

17 checkpoints, some held by Serbs, some held by Muslims. This was in early

18 1992, where absolute mistrust prevailed. Nobody trusted anyone, and fear

19 was everywhere.

20 Q. And what politically did the Serbs decide to do at this juncture?

21 A. In this period, from the point when the Serbs walked out of the

22 Municipal Assembly, a number of meetings were held and bodies, as I said,

23 this Defence Council, then as Council of Citizens, representatives of

24 various political parties met with the aim of preserving the peace and

25 reaching some agreement. The situation in general dictated our next

Page 18653

1 moves.

2 Q. And perhaps I can lead you. The next move was the setting up of

3 your own assembly?

4 A. Yes. As I've already said, in connection with the establishment

5 of political parties, the SDS was the last one to be established, and it

6 was done as a response to the developments, out of the need of the people

7 to get organised. Now, the Municipal Assembly and the Executive Committee

8 ceased to function. The Serbs abandoned both the active and the reserve

9 police force. The Muslims had been refusing to respond to JNA call-ups,

10 which included the reserve military forces. General Efendic ordered that

11 the Territorial Defence be mobilised. I believe it was in early April.

12 At the time, we were still a state forming part of Yugoslavia;

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina's independence had not been declared yet.

14 There was this incident where some guests at the wedding at

15 Grbavica were killed. Many Serbs treat this particular incident as

16 marking the start of the war. You had other incidents. In Kupres, in

17 Brod municipality, all these events exacerbated the situation and thus

18 bringing chaos to our own municipality. Since we were unable to get

19 organised, the Serbs themselves spontaneously gathered on this venue on

20 the 18th of April, and proclaimed the Serb municipality, which was more an

21 expression of the wish to show the Serb people that they were not left to

22 their own devices simply because the local government wasn't functioning,

23 and out of the desire to gather, to protect their own interests, and to

24 become a partner to the other side. Because ever since we had walked out

25 of the Assembly, none of these officials felt the need to approach the SDS

Page 18654

1 representatives and tell them: Let's sit at a table and try and find some

2 sort of a solution.

3 This was, therefore, the result of a need of ours to get organised

4 that we established the Serb municipality, in order to discuss all these

5 pressing matters, as partners to the other side, the Muslim side.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to ask a question.

7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Sir, you've talked about three

8 incidents, Grbavica, Kupres, and the municipality of Brod. Very briefly.

9 Do not go into great detail, but could you please explain and tell us what

10 happened in those three municipalities exactly. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My knowledge is based on what I was

12 able to glean from the press and from what the media reported. I would

13 not wish to go into any details or try to relate these. I only know that

14 blood was shed. There were those who were killed in Kupres, Brod, and

15 Sijekovac. It is only now that the bodies of those who were killed at the

16 time are being found. I believe it was in March 1992 that they were

17 killed.

18 I want to add the following: You have to understand us. Those --

19 that was the Balkans. Rumours were being spread. Everyone was afraid of

20 everyone else. Stories went around the town, going as far as such

21 absurdities that you would think the aliens are coming to invade the

22 earth.

23 One night I went to the neighbouring village with a commander of

24 the police. I went to this one community centre that was in the centre of

25 the village, where people used to gather. When I entered the building,

Page 18655

1 there were some 30 people or so, all of them wearing reserve police

2 uniforms, armed. I knew the man, he was my neighbour, and I asked him,

3 what were all those armed men doing there? He told me, "This was not on

4 your account. This was because we wanted to protect ourselves from

5 possible attack by someone coming from outside, by some outsiders, be it

6 Serbs or Croats or someone else."

7 So the Serb municipality was merely proclaimed to provide physical

8 protection to ourselves from someone.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Witness, you did not really

10 answer my question. You've talked about three incidents. Could you

11 please relate to us what it is about, you've talked about those three

12 incidents. You talked about a wedding at Grbavica, you've talked about an

13 incident in Kupres and another one in the municipality of Brod. What

14 happened? It's very easy to summarise in three sentences. Could you

15 please do that. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The incident did not take

17 place at Grbavica. You've misunderstood me. It was before the -- it was

18 in front of the old Orthodox church at Bascarsija, where a man who was

19 carrying a Serb flag, his son had been killed, so he killed some guests at

20 the wedding. Even today there is an inquiry into that event, or rather,

21 this man who was carrying the Serb flag was killed simply because he was a

22 Serb carrying a flag. Whereas Kupres is not in the territory of our

23 municipality. Kupres is in Central Bosnia. Bosanski Brod is another

24 municipality bordering the Sava River.

25 What I wanted to say by mentioning these incidents was that blood

Page 18656

1 had already been shed, people had already been injured or killed, and when

2 you see people getting killed 50 kilometres away from where you are and

3 these horrid events, then of course --

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Sir, you've talked to us about

5 bloodshed. Was it only Serbian blood or was it also Croatian blood or

6 Muslim blood in that way? Was there -- who was killed exactly?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, the blood was shed on all

8 sides. In Kupres, it was Croats and Serb -- Muslims who were -- or Serbs

9 were fighting. In Brod -- the old Orthodox church in the centre of

10 Sarajevo that I mentioned, that was where the Serb blood was shed only.

11 But of course it always takes two sides to enter into a conflict.

12 I was mentioning this as one factor which contributed to the

13 general disquiet, to the heightening of the tensions, the instilling of

14 fear, all of which urged people to self-organise themselves.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I'm looking at the clock. Would this be a

16 suitable moment?

17 MR. JOSSE: Absolutely, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I then first ask Madam Usher to escort the

19 witness out of the courtroom.

20 We'll have a break for half an hour, approximately.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, this witness seems to be inclined to tell

23 us long stories. Pages 26 and 27 of the transcript today, on the basis of

24 one or two simple questions, taught us a lot about what army facilities

25 were near to a route, where it was easy to break in and to steal

Page 18657












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18658

1 something, when another group retired and that -- whether there were any

2 cadets, et cetera, et cetera. Finally, whether any arms had ever been

3 stolen there, we still do not know after these two pages. That it was

4 attacked on the 12th of May, we now all know, but attacked by whom is

5 still perfectly unclear, whether this attack was a military attack,

6 because the 12th of May might have been in a period of time where there

7 was no arming to prepare for an armed struggle but might have been already

8 when the arms struggle had started.

9 That all of the weaponry was left after the JNA was -- left on the

10 18th of May is perfectly clear now, and that they left behind everything,

11 but who took it? And I thought, as a matter of fact, that your question

12 was aiming at finding out about arming of the Muslims. And unfortunately,

13 after two pages of answers and hardly any intervention from your side, we

14 still do not know one single thing about it.

15 So therefore, I'd like you to -- perhaps to focus very much on

16 facts, to the extent possible, and also to take the witness by the hand if

17 he starts dwelling about general matters.

18 MR. JOSSE: Well, I'll try my best.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Of course.

20 MR. JOSSE: In the past, Your Honour has intervened even when --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --

22 MR. JOSSE: -- I'm examining a witness in chief and asked the

23 witness -- and chided the witness gently and invited them, instructed

24 them, perhaps I should say, to answer the question. I would ask that be

25 done on the next occasion that the witness strays.

Page 18659

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, there's always a dilemma for a

2 Judge, because he might interrupt evidence which the Judge does not

3 understand yet as to be very relevant and to come in the next sentence.

4 You would know better. Certainly I'll assist you if the witness does do

5 the same, but let's say primary responsibility is with you, and I'll

6 certainly assist you whenever that would be needed, and I'll fully support

7 you.

8 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much.


10 MR. JOSSE: Could I mention one thing?


12 MR. JOSSE: I think it would be an idea if everyone had a copy of

13 the map of Hadzici. I think it would be a little bit easier when we come

14 to look at the -- briefly, I hope, some of the military operations that

15 took place there in 1992.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We could bring our exhibits, which gives the

17 maps of all the municipalities of Sarajevo area.

18 MR. JOSSE: If Your Honours could, I think that would be very

19 helpful.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll certainly try and find it.

21 We'll adjourn until 20 minutes past 4.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 4.29 p.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for the late start. Urgent matters do

25 arise sometimes at the 17th of November, which is the day on which the new

Page 18660

1 term of office starts for new Judges and for re-elected Judges, of course,

2 continues. That took some of my attention, which caused the delay.

3 Mr. Josse, please proceed.

4 MR. JOSSE: Well, thank you, Your Honour. In fact, the time

5 wasn't wasted, and I'm very grateful to my learned friend Mr. Harmon,

6 because, as Your Honour will discover shortly, one of the documents that

7 the witness had brought, the OTP had already prepared a translation of

8 that document, and so that's going to make life very much easier later on.

9 We've been liaising as far as that's concerned. So I'm very grateful to my

10 learned friend and his staff.

11 Could I ask the witness to turn to tab 4.

12 Your Honour, whilst that's being done, let me explain what

13 happened here. Tab 4, the witness did provide in advance of his coming to

14 The Hague. We submitted it to the CLSS, and as the index makes clear,

15 they said it was illegible. To be fair to them, it was. However, when he

16 arrived here yesterday and he and I, with the aid of an interpreter, went

17 through his documents, we found another copy of the same document, which

18 was far more legible. I have little doubt that the CLSS would translate

19 this document when we resubmit it, which is what we will now do.



22 Q. Now, it's right, isn't it, Mr. Banduka - I'm sure I can lead on

23 this - that what tab 4 is, it's the proclamation to the Serbian people of

24 Hadzici municipality and it explains to them that the situation that they

25 face in the municipality is difficult; it explains why the Municipal

Page 18661

1 Assembly had been established; it describes the president, vice-president,

2 and secretary of the municipality are, and deals with the forming of a

3 Serbian police station, Territorial Defence Staff, commander of that

4 staff, and the reason behind those decisions, a general mobilisation

5 request, and also a call for peace. Is that a fair summary of that

6 document?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is there anything -- were you involved in drafting that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what was your -- or the aims of those of you who drafted it?

11 What were you hoping to achieve?

12 A. As I said, but first just a sentence about this document. It was

13 drawn up after the 11th of March, when the Assembly of the Serb People was

14 held, which was attended by representatives of different parties and all

15 the different components of the Serbian people. Our aim was, first of

16 all, to have transparency in our work, to inform the people that we had

17 been forced to do what we did, as we say in the introductory part of this

18 document, and that the reason we had done it was to protect the Serb

19 people and to attempt to preserve peace. We therefore wished to inform

20 the public that this was not something done by a small group or just a

21 part of the people, but simply to let the people know that all we wanted

22 was to protect them and to keep the peace.

23 Q. How did you distribute this proclamation?

24 A. We distributed it through people. People came on a daily basis

25 and gathered. It was distributed from hand to hand. This was the most

Page 18662

1 efficient method. For example, a man would take a bunch of documents for

2 his street or his village or his neighbourhood, and then he would

3 disseminate it there.

4 Q. And the document doesn't bear any particular date. It talks about

5 the establishment of the Assembly being the 11th of April. Do you recall

6 when this document was in fact produced?

7 A. Just after the Assembly sitting. I think the sitting was on a

8 Saturday, so this would have been ready on the following Monday, I think.

9 On Sunday, a group met again, and then we constituted an advisory council.

10 We couldn't have a proper organ, in the traditional sense, but we

11 established a body which would analyse the situation, monitor the

12 situation daily, give advice, send messages to the population, and I think

13 this was done two or three days after the assembly. I don't think it was

14 more than that.

15 Q. And so far as the Assembly itself is concerned, the founding

16 session took place in the culture-come-sports centre of Hadzici; is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Drago Milosevic was elected as speaker?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. He, in fact, wasn't a member of the SDS. And Dragan Kapetina --

22 A. He wasn't. Kapetina, no.

23 Q. Who was originally in the SDP, he was elected --

24 A. That's why we tendered tab 1, as far as you can recall, from which

25 it is evident that at this founding Assembly, there were representatives

Page 18663

1 of all political options among the Serbs. Gengo Ratko, the secretary of

2 the Assembly, was also not an SDS member.

3 Q. And you -- various other appointments were made, including head of

4 the police and the commander?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. An advisory body, known as the Serb Advisory Committee or Council

7 of the Hadzici Municipality was also founded on the 11th of April; is that

8 right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You were on that body; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was the purpose of this advisory body?

13 A. The main purpose of this advisory body was, as I said, that the

14 founding Assembly chose what it chose, but it couldn't meet on a daily

15 basis. It was a large number of people, over a hundred. That's why the

16 advisory body was established, to, in a way, stand in for the Assembly, or

17 as, for example, in peacetime conditions, you have a government at the

18 municipal level or higher which functions in between Assembly sittings.

19 Its role was, as we said in this proclamation, to monitor the situation,

20 to calm down the situation, to continue negotiating with representatives

21 of the other peoples concerning the issues we spoke about earlier.

22 Q. Have a look, if you would, please, at tab 5.

23 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps before that's done, Your Honour, could I ask

24 for a provisional number to be assigned to tab 4, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.

Page 18664

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D105, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

3 MR. JOSSE: And tab 5, please, with Your Honours' leave.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, of course.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D106, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 MR. JOSSE: The position is the same here, Your Honour. The

8 witness has found a slightly better copy. I hope that CLSS now will be

9 able to translate this. Frankly, I can't guarantee it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: It looks as if it would be possible to translate, if

11 not all, then most of it.


13 Q. This, Mr. Banduka, was information that was distributed to Serbian

14 citizens, dated the 27th of April, 1992; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Looking ahead in the document, who is it signed by, please?

17 A. The advisory body that we spoke about just now formed a commission

18 which we called the Commission for Information. It was the duty of this

19 commission to disseminate information and to inform the advisory body, and

20 later on the Crisis Staff, when it was established.

21 Q. And again, summarising this document, calling upon people to

22 fulfil their obligations to the municipality by joining the Territorial

23 Defence, saying that regulations similar to those of a state of war should

24 be in place. List of Territorial Defence members needs to be made. Deals

25 with communication matters, but also calls for talks, or at least further

Page 18665

1 talks with the SDA to avoid war, calls for equal treatment, and it also

2 mentions the charity Dobrotvor; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And again, what was the purpose and aim in producing this

5 document?

6 A. The purpose of this document was to inform the people, to counter

7 disinformation and rumours. The document explains to the people that

8 nothing bad is being done, that we are simply trying to manage the

9 situation; that is, that the advisory body, through this commission, is

10 trying to do that. As for the charity organisation called Dobrotvor it

11 was formed at the level of Bosnia and Herzegovina and had branches in

12 other municipalities, because we were already receiving refugees. People

13 were already leaving parts of the municipality, going to stay with

14 relatives and so on, and also, there were areas nearby where there was

15 already war.

16 For example, on the 24th of April, at Ilidza, which is the

17 neighbouring -- one of the neighbouring municipalities - it's only some 20

18 kilometres away - a conflict broke out there between Serbs and Muslims.

19 On the 24th of April, according to my information, six Serbs were killed

20 in our neighbourhood, so to speak. There was already fighting, or at

21 least there were incidents, whatever you want to call them. And we were

22 trying to, conditionally speaking, at least put the Serbs under some sort

23 of control and prevent them from harming others in any way, to prevent

24 them needlessly causing incidents, and so on. That was the purpose.

25 Q. At about this time, a Crisis Staff was formed.

Page 18666

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Listen, if you would, to the questions carefully and just answer

3 exactly what I ask you. Firstly, why was a Crisis Staff formed?

4 A. Because of necessity, because of fear, the need to protect the

5 people from anything that might happen.

6 Q. Who formed the Crisis Staff? That is, who made the decision that

7 one needed to be formed?

8 A. There was talk of this at this founding Assembly, but at the time

9 we felt it was not yet necessary. Later on, the advisory body made a

10 decision to this effect. Learning from previous experience and the

11 legislation of the former Yugoslavia, there was this idea of a Crisis

12 Staff which could be formed in times of natural disasters or emergency

13 situations. The role of a Crisis Staff was technical, to coordinate, to

14 monitor the situation, to gather information on what was happening,

15 because the joint organs had stopped functioning.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, could I just ask for one clarification?

17 You said: "Learning from previous experience." Did you refer to

18 experience of a recent period or from a period further back in history?

19 You don't have to give details, but I'd just like to know whether it was

20 recent experience.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. This was a term that was

22 commonly used. If there was a crisis situation, such as an earthquake or

23 a flood, or any unforeseen situation, that would be a crisis and there

24 would be a crisis staff to manage it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the previous experience you referred to was,

Page 18667

1 I'd say, constitutional experience or legislative experience, or was it

2 any practical experience you had in mind?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, both. Most often, there

4 were floods in those areas. If there was a flood in a municipality, a

5 crisis staff would be established.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And when had that happened for the last time,

7 formation of a crisis staff?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know the precise date,

9 but there were floods almost every autumn.

10 JUDGE ORIE: So that means that every autumn, a crisis staff was

11 formed. Do I understand you correctly? Approximately?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I won't say every autumn, but

13 if there was a flood, yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I now better understand your reference to the

15 experience.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


18 Q. How many people were on the Crisis Staff?

19 A. The first time the Crisis Staff was established, there were about

20 20, but according to the situation, the numbers varied. Various

21 circumstances influenced this. People would leave, for example. They

22 would move away. Or certain members of the Crisis Staff, when the

23 conflict broke out, remained in Muslim territory and spent the whole war

24 in prison, for example, and then they had to be replaced, and so on.

25 Q. Mr. Radic was the president of the Crisis Staff; is that right?

Page 18668

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You were on it; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And for how long did it operate?

5 A. As far as I can recall, in late May, at the advisory body, we

6 considered the possibility of constituting those organs in accordance with

7 the decisions of the Assembly and to establish an Executive Board so that

8 the Crisis Staff would no longer be needed. And I think it was up to

9 about the 20th of June, 1992. I think that's how long it existed.

10 Q. When would you say that the armed conflict began in Hadzici?

11 A. The armed conflict began on the 11th of May, 1992 - that's what we

12 say officially - when there was a fierce attack by Muslim forces on the

13 centre of Hadzici, where all the Serbs had remained.

14 Q. Because I simply wanted to know the date that the war started,

15 because I'd like to take you back to the 8th of May. That, in many ways,

16 was the final build-up to the war; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the 8th of May is a significant day to Serbs; it's part of the

19 St. George's Festival; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what happened on the 8th of May, please, of 1992?

22 A. The 6th of May is also my feast-day, my family feast-day, and I

23 was celebrating it in the way it's usually done. And on the third day

24 after that, St. Mark's Day - that's the name of the Orthodox holiday - the

25 Serbs visit their family graves. They visit the graves of the dead. That

Page 18669

1 morning, I wasn't there, because it was the third day of my celebration,

2 but my house was close to the cemetery, so all those who went to visit the

3 cemetery would drop in for a cup of coffee or a bite to eat. And on that

4 morning, the Muslims had blocked the entrance to the truck maintenance

5 area. And my sister-in-law had gone to work, and she couldn't get there.

6 She came back. She was turned back. And that's as far as I know.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The question was simple, what happened on the 8th of

8 May, and you go into a lot of detail on whether your sister-in-law was

9 blocked from -- could you tell us what happened on the 8th of May, and if

10 Mr. Josse would like any further explanation, he'll certainly ask for it.

11 Please proceed.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 8th of May, the Muslims

13 blocked the entrance to a company employing over a thousand workers. This

14 was the technical and repairs and car maintenance company. So they

15 separated one part of the municipality from the other part. They cut it

16 off.


18 Q. Was there any shooting on that day?

19 A. I wouldn't be able to say precisely, because, as I said, I was at

20 home.

21 Q. Let's move, then, if we may, to the 11th of May. You were -- a

22 few minutes ago you were about to tell us how, in your view, this conflict

23 actually started.

24 A. The conflict started -- well, before that, let me just say that

25 the last few days before the 11th of May, most Muslims left the centre of

Page 18670

1 Hadzici. They concentrated themselves in the areas of Pazaric and Tarcin.

2 On the morning of the 11th of May, they launched an attack on the centre

3 of Hadzici over the Tinovo hill, the village of Kasagici and the barracks

4 that I mentioned previously.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... for you to explain this to

6 us.

7 MR. JOSSE: Could I invite Your Honours to take the Hadzici map,

8 if at all possible. But there's at least one copy on the ... It's clear

9 the witness will need one. I'm very grateful to my learned friend and his

10 colleagues. They've got a number of copies.

11 Q. Presumably, Mr. Banduka, the yellow area that we see in the map is

12 Hadzici town itself; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Where did the Muslims depart to a few days before the 11th of May?

15 Perhaps you could be given the pointer.

16 A. They went off in this direction, Dupovci and further on, towards

17 Tarcin and Pazaric. Some of them left in this direction, Grivici,

18 Vrancici, in the direction of Kiseljak and Lepenica.

19 Q. Leaving the map for one moment, when you say "they left," who

20 left? Men, women, children, animals? How did they leave, and who left,

21 exactly?

22 A. As I lived, as I said, in Drozgometva, it was in the direction of

23 the Kiseljak municipality towards Lepenica, and I was a witness.

24 Q. Show us where Drozgometva is, please, on the map.

25 A. Drozgometva. It's a bit hard to pronounce.

Page 18671

1 Q. I'd certainly agree with that.

2 A. You can't see Drozgometva on the map here. Drozgometva is near

3 Grivici. So you have to follow this blue line, Vrancici is to your left

4 and Bare is to your right, but you cannot see Drozgometva on the map here.

5 Q. You've shown us approximately where it is. You were there; is

6 that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did you see with your own eyes?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, for the record it now does not appear, the

10 witness pointed at the area which is at the north-western edge of the

11 yellow area, which represents Hadzici. Please proceed. And perhaps you

12 could do a similar thing, because I did not closely follow it, in what

13 direction the Serbs left.

14 MR. JOSSE: The Muslims left?

15 JUDGE ORIE: The Muslims left, yes. I'm sorry.

16 MR. JOSSE: Well, yes. I mean --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Some of them -- he said some of them left in the

18 direction of Grivici and Vrancici and the direction of -- and then I

19 missed -- one word is missing.

20 That was also in north-westerly direction, leaving the Hadzici

21 municipality, near to where a place close to the border is Vrancici.

22 MR. JOSSE: I think.

23 Q. Did I understand you to say that Muslims left also in a

24 south-westerly direction?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the witness could point at it again in what

Page 18672

1 direction the Muslims left so we'll be able to describe it. If you would

2 point at it again, Mr. Banduka.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. As I've said, they went into

4 two directions, Dupovci, Grivici, and then onwards. That was the road.

5 And the other direction was from the centre of Hadzici, across Zuto, by

6 Grivici, and they passed through Drozgometva, in a column. This

7 particular direction leads toward Kiseljak.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Just to summarise: The witness first pointed at a

9 south-western direction following the blue line of the river, up to where

10 it bends to purely west, and then further pointed at -- from the village

11 of Hadzici, in north-westerly direction, Grivici, Vrancici.

12 Please proceed.


14 Q. You were, as you've told us, at home in your village. What did

15 you see?

16 A. I saw entire columns of people, some of them on tractors, others

17 on trucks, with their livestock, with all the belongings they could

18 possibly carry. I went to meet the people and talked to them. The

19 Muslims were leaving, and the Serbs stayed where they were. For instance,

20 I myself had nowhere to go. Where was I supposed to go? I stayed at

21 home.

22 At the end of this movement, on the morning of 11th May, an attack

23 started, from the directions that I mentioned, or rather, if you look at

24 Grivici on the map, behind Grivici there is a hill, Ormanje, and people

25 were able to go across the hill to Tarcin and Pazaric, through forest

Page 18673

1 tracks, into the areas where basically most of them went.

2 Q. It may be obvious, but I think you should tell us. Why is it

3 Muslims left?

4 A. In my opinion, which is based on the events that followed, there

5 was a plan in place, which was to evacuate property, children, women, and

6 the elderly, and to cross over to the territories predominantly inhabited

7 by the Muslims and then launch an attack on Hadzici. That was it. For

8 five or six days we observed these columns of people leaving. Nobody knew

9 why they were leaving. Everybody wondered. Although the situation was

10 quite tense, as we previously indicated. Nevertheless, it seemed odd.

11 Several days later, an attack was launched on the centre of

12 Hadzici, where there were Serbs, because they had nowhere to go.

13 Q. And where was that attack primarily aimed at? Which place within

14 Hadzici?

15 A. You see, when you look at Hadzici on the map, this was the centre

16 of town itself, which is some three kilometres across, perhaps. So the

17 attack was focussed on the very centre of Hadzici, where there were Serbs.

18 Most of them, actually, stayed there. For instance, if you look at the

19 map -- just a moment, please. There you have Tinovo hill. It was on that

20 hill that the fiercest attack was launched. It was on that very morning

21 that some people were killed over there.

22 Then you have another village. Yes, here it is. Kasatici. All

23 these areas had already been placed under Muslim control, because most of

24 the Muslim population left the centre of Hadzici for these particular

25 areas, which was then followed by the attack that I mentioned a while ago.

Page 18674












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18675

1 Q. And how successful was the attack?

2 A. From the Muslim perspective, the attack was not successful,

3 because it was repelled. Although we had some casualties, and according

4 to some information we subsequently obtained, the Muslims had casualties

5 too.

6 Q. Now, very soon thereafter, a number of Muslims were captured; is

7 that correct?

8 A. You see, previously I spoke about this feeling that prevailed

9 among the people that there was a plan in place. In the centre of

10 Hadzici, most of the population that remained there were Serbs. In

11 several neighbourhoods around this area, there were mostly Muslims.

12 In the course of the clashes on this particular day, in an area

13 called Kovacevici - it was a neighbourhood - fire was opened and there

14 were clashes. I found out later on that there were 12 Muslim soldiers

15 there, all of whom wore black uniforms. Interestingly enough - this is

16 something that fits into what I said earlier - nobody was to be found in

17 this neighbourhood, women or children or anyone else. In fact, we

18 perceived them as a sort of a fifth column. Why? Because I believe that

19 it was all planned, their evacuation, including their movable and

20 immovable properties, in order to then launch an attack on what remained

21 in Hadzici.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.

23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the witness keeps referring to "he heard

24 this" and "he heard that." Perhaps he could identify the sources of his

25 information.

Page 18676

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, would you specifically ask for that. If

2 the witness says, "I believed it was all prepared," then could you please

3 ask him to find out why he believes that.

4 MR. JOSSE: Yes. I thought I had tried to deal with that a bit

5 earlier, but I certainly -- I thought I had adduced that, Your Honour. I

6 mean, it's the inference that the witness draws, he's already said, from

7 what happened at the time, namely, the departure, followed by the attack

8 soon thereafter.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you could ask the witness: Is it that it was

10 all planned, did you believe that on the basis of the Muslims leaving in

11 columns, as you said, or is there any other reason why you believed that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this was primarily the reason

13 why we felt that this was the case. The thing that you mentioned

14 formerly. I saw for myself the columns moving in the area where I myself

15 lived, and I saw the people in the column, only to see them a couple of

16 days later as part of the attack, as attackers.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You now -- so you add now that those who left

18 were now among the attackers. Was there any other reason, or was it on

19 the basis of that that you believed that it was all planned?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the main reason.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would have an additional question for

22 you.

23 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] You have shown us where you were

24 [indiscernible]. Could you show us where was -- where your house was?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About here. You have Grivici and

Page 18677

1 Vrancici to the left, and this red line is the road to my home. So you

2 wouldn't be able to see my home on this map. It is further away.

3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] The evening, or the day before

4 the attack, so I'm talking about the 10th of May, so what happened on the

5 8th of May, on the 9th of May? Did you go to the Hadzici centre?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. As I've said, the 6th of May

7 was my family patron saint's day, and I wasn't moving about those days.

8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Very well. I understand. So

9 when did you go to the Hadzici downtown area for the last time?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I was over there on the

11 morning of the 6th of May, because we have to have -- we have certain

12 rites that we have to perform on the family patron saint's day. You have

13 to go to the church and carry wheat and stuff like that, and you have

14 people coming over to your house.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] When we talk about weapons, what

16 was the weaponry, what soldiers did you see in the city, who was in the

17 city on the 5th of May, or in the morning of the 6th of May, in terms of

18 military, the weaponry, and the soldiers?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no army there. You had

20 the reserve police force, and they were the only ones who were carrying

21 arms in the streets. There were then soldiers guarding barracks. But no

22 military was to be found on the street that day.

23 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. But I

24 would like to ask you the following, then: You said: "On the 10th of

25 May, I saw a column of people, of Muslims, leaving the city of Hadzici."

Page 18678

1 You've told us that those were civilians, but did they carry any weapons

2 at that point when you saw them?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only those who were members of the

4 Muslim reserve police force who wore blue uniforms, very much like the

5 uniform worn by the regular police force, only in a different shade of

6 blue. There were people moving in vehicles, so it was hard to see whether

7 they had any weapons, although I wouldn't say that I saw any, apart from

8 the weapons carried by those in uniforms.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I see. So when you say that on

10 the 11th of May an attack was carried out against the centre, the downtown

11 of Hadzici, what did you see, what did you hear, why do you tell us that

12 an attack took place on that day?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I haven't understood your

14 question.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] On the 11th of May, an attack

16 took place, which happened not so far from where you lived; correct? So

17 what did you see personally? What did you see, what did you witness, what

18 did you hear on that day?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One could hear shooting. I told you

20 that the attack was launched from areas that were mostly wooded, fire was

21 opened on the centre of the town, the outskirts. There was shelling.

22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm sorry to interrupt,

23 sir, but what did you see, personally? What did you hear yourself, with

24 your own eyes -- what did you see with your own eyes, what did you hear?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was shooting from all

Page 18679

1 directions, from all sides. I said that Hadzici was some three kilometres

2 across. I may have been four and a half kilometres away from the centre.

3 That's where my house was. But one could hear shooting, one could see the

4 smoke, as some of the buildings had already been hit by shells and so on

5 and so forth.

6 In the course of the day, at about 2.00 p.m., from the vantage

7 point of my house, I observed the left side of Hadzici. I climbed up to

8 higher ground, from where I could see with my own eyes that from Tinovo

9 hill, fire was being opened from a wood there. The village was -- of

10 Kasatici was being shelled. You could hear and see shooting going on over

11 there as well.

12 There was this one interesting detail. That day, an aeroplane

13 appeared, and to this day, nobody is sure what this was about, whose plane

14 it was. The plane released two bombs, which landed on a village that was

15 populated by the Serb residents there. And this was something that

16 remained stuck in my memory. This was the first day that I saw people

17 getting killed, shooting everywhere.


19 Q. The 12 Muslims who - subsequently discovered - had been murdered

20 were seized at around that time; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I hope I can lead on this. It is right to -- let me ask you one

23 other question before I begin to lead. When did you learn that a number

24 of Muslims had been seized and killed?

25 A. A young man told me about it. I'm not sure whether it was on the

Page 18680

1 12th or on the 13th. This young man, who regrettably also got killed on

2 the 3rd of September, told me that the Kovacevics got killed. He used to

3 play football and knew some of these people, so I learnt it first from

4 him.

5 Q. So you learnt it quite soon thereafter. And until quite recently,

6 it's right to say that you were under the impression that they had all

7 been killed by one individual, in revenge for his brother's death earlier

8 the same day? That's right, isn't it? But you have brought with you to

9 The Hague a newspaper article that we find at tab 7.

10 Firstly, Mr. Banduka, this newspaper article is from a publication

11 which bears what name, please?

12 A. Dvevni avaz. This is the newspaper published in the federal

13 Sarajevo. It is the paper that has the highest circulation in Sarajevo.

14 Q. And we can see it's dated the 27th of June, 2004. And

15 basically --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- what it says -- or it deals with the exhumation of 12 bodies

18 that were exhumed in Krupac, next to Sarajevo, by the federal commission

19 that deals with this sort of thing. Where is Krupac, please, in relation

20 to Hadzici?

21 A. It would be easier to explain by drawing upon a map. Anyway, the

22 place is some 20 kilometres away from Hadzici, in the direction of Trnovo,

23 or Foca. On this axis from Ilidza.

24 Q. That's fine. And it's also right, isn't it, that until you read

25 this article, you thought there were 14 victims of this particular

Page 18681

1 massacre; when you read the article, you discovered that in fact there

2 were 12?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The article goes on to say that a member of the commission that

5 we've just mentioned, a Mr. Koso, said that the truck in which the victims

6 had been brought to their burial and, I think it's assumed, execution

7 place, was burnt, and it wasn't easy to identify bodies. However, they

8 were all civilians from Hadzici. They were arrested, or seized, on the

9 11th of May, 1992, and then killed. It's thought that they spent the

10 night in the police station in Ilidza. And the next morning they were

11 killed in a track -- in a truck - I beg your pardon- that was the property

12 of KTK Visoko. And we can see in the middle of the article the names of

13 the victims. Is that right?

14 A. I suppose that what the article says is true. This is information

15 related by a member of the commission.

16 Q. You've told us when you learnt of the killing of these

17 individuals, two or three days, if that, after it happened. As far as you

18 know, did it become public knowledge among both Serbs and Muslims then, or

19 did it take a little time for the news to filter through to the general

20 population?

21 A. I haven't understood your question. Could you repeat it, please.

22 I apologise.

23 Q. You've told us that fairly soon after these people were killed,

24 you learnt that they had in fact been killed. Did that information become

25 widespread quickly, or did it take a little bit of time for others to

Page 18682

1 learn of what had happened?

2 A. Not right away. Later on, through conversations, the story became

3 known. It was veiled, a bit mysterious, because, for instance, I was told

4 that 14 people were involved, because that was the story that went around.

5 Now the location and the numbers changed.

6 Q. I'm going to stop you. Let me deal with this completely

7 differently. I really want you to take us through how the dispute, that's

8 putting it mildly, the war escalated in Hadzici between the Serbs and the

9 Muslims. The point I was coming to was trying to find out the extent to

10 which the knowledge that these people had been killed exacerbated the

11 violence.

12 Bearing that in mind, perhaps you'd tell us how the war escalated

13 after the initial attacks by the Muslims on the Serbs in Hadzici on the

14 11th of May. What happened after that?

15 A. Of course this had an impact, both on the Serbs and the Muslims.

16 This was only the start of the war. When one realised that this was no

17 longer only a political difference of opinions, it became a conflict. You

18 had the attack, which yielded greater tensions, enhanced the fear. The

19 attacks never stopped. They did not stop at this. The attacks did not

20 stop, not even the days that were to follow. Gradually, this line

21 separating the Muslims from the Serbs was created, and it remained in

22 place throughout the war, because the attacks kept continuing from the

23 directions that I mentioned earlier.

24 Q. Show us, perhaps using the pointer, slowly, as best you can,

25 bearing in mind the map is not that detailed, where the line of separation

Page 18683

1 that you've just talked about was.

2 MR. HARMON: Could we have a date? Because I know the line, the

3 separation line changed. So if we could have a date.

4 MR. JOSSE: That wasn't -- the witness didn't say that.

5 MR. HARMON: I'm familiar with the area, and I'm wondering, if you

6 ask him to draw a line, if you can indicate -- if the witness could

7 indicate at what point he's referring when he draws a line.

8 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Your Honour, I know my learned friend is very

9 well aware of what happened, but I asked the question deliberately simply

10 because that's what the witness said. Perhaps -- Your Honour, perhaps I

11 can deal with it this way, if I may.

12 Q. Mr. Banduka, you've heard what Mr. Harmon for the Prosecution has

13 just said, and he said that the line did alter at times during the war.

14 What do you say about that?

15 A. My comment is that the line did not change except in one part of

16 Mount Igman in 1993. All the lines that were established, you can't say

17 whether they were established on the 9th, 10th, or 11th. I said when the

18 Muslims left, and then on the 11th there was an attack. I showed you

19 where my house was. My house was burnt. We'll probably come to that

20 later.

21 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you. Let's return to what the question

22 was. The question was where the line was. Then the small incident was

23 whether the line ever changed. The witness told us that it changed on

24 Mount Igman in 1993. I take it that his testimony now relates to 1992.

25 So could the witness please indicate where the line was, according to his

Page 18684

1 knowledge, in 1992.

2 MR. JOSSE: I'm grateful, Your Honour.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This map?


5 Q. That's the only map I've got, I'm afraid.

6 A. Yes. Yes. Here you see Mutabdzije then you see Kasatici here,

7 the foot hills of Kasatici, and then it comes down to Dupovci, continuing

8 on in the area of Grivici. Grivici, in the beginning, up to the end of

9 June, I think it was, then it changed. Then around the edges of Vrancici

10 and where I showed you that my village and my house should be. That's, as

11 far as I can tell on this tiny map.

12 JUDGE ORIE: May I suggest the following, Mr. Josse. First of

13 all, the witness drew with the pointer a line which bends from the east of

14 the village of Hadzici, bends down under it and then goes up again and to

15 the villages he mentioned. If it becomes an important matter, I would

16 suggest that during the next break a copy would be made of the map and

17 that the witness marks it and then that you tender that into evidence.

18 MR. JOSSE: I was going to suggest exactly that course.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I was speaking before my turn.

20 Perhaps we would have the break now, then, so that you can prepare

21 for that, or would it not be a suitable moment? I can tell you that there

22 is a reason why I'd rather not have the break too late.

23 MR. JOSSE: Now is fine. Perhaps Your Honour would clearly give

24 that instruction to the witness. I know the Prosecution, as I've already

25 indicated, helpfully have got other copies of this map, which I think the

Page 18685

1 witness can mark.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He could even do it during the break. Let's

3 take care that we get the right colour, because markings on Defence

4 requests are in black. So if you would be provided with a black pen,

5 could you, on a map, also to be provided to you, during the break, just

6 draw that line as you just indicated that, and then we'll see it after the

7 break.

8 We'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 6.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, did you manage to draw the line on the

12 map? And if it's on the ELMO, we can -- oh, yes. Perhaps we put it on

13 the ELMO for three seconds so that the parties -- or do you need it still,

14 Mr. Josse?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MR. JOSSE: It can go on the ELMO. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then a provisional number to be assigned.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D107, Your Honours.

19 MR. JOSSE: And perhaps a number could be assigned to the

20 newspaper article, again provisionally, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: The newspaper article dated 27 June 2004 will be

22 D108, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Are you further dealing with newspaper and the map,

24 Mr. Josse? If not, I would have a request.

25 MR. JOSSE: Not the newspaper article. The map, I'm sure I will

Page 18686

1 deal with. Probably quite a lot more to ask about it over the next

2 minutes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then could I ask the newspaper article to be put on

4 the ELMO for a second. And zoom in on the lower part, the lower part,

5 where it says "Imena ubijenih." I pronounce it wrongly. Lower part.

6 Lower. So move the -- yes.

7 Could I ask the interpreters, because there was in the

8 testimony -- the witness said: I thought about 14 persons. Now from this

9 article I learn that there are 12. And I wondered what the line "Imena

10 ubijenih" means. Perhaps I can ask the interpreters if they can see it.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The names of the killed.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could the interpreters try to find out whether

13 there are 12 names or whether there are 15 names. I first see what seems

14 to be Remzo (Redzo) Cosic and then from what I understand it's Adil,

15 Dzenad, and Uzeir Kovacevic. Is that correct?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then that makes four. Then we have Almir and Miralem

18 Kovacevic.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: 6 -- after Kovacevic, 7; Edin Kovacevic, 8; Zamir i

21 Zijad Kovacevic makes 10; Mladen Soldo, 11; Atif Isic, 12; Ismet Hodzic --

22 no. Hodzic 13 and Pero Medic. That makes 14. So I do not understand,

23 but perhaps you could clarify the issue, Mr. Josse, how this newspaper

24 article giving 14 names to lead the witness to believe that there were 12.

25 I just have difficulties in understanding it.

Page 18687

1 MR. JOSSE: If I might say, with respect, very helpful observation

2 from Your Honour, who has obviously looked at the document in a

3 painstaking and, as I've already said, helpful manner.

4 JUDGE ORIE: A position which is required from lawyers.

5 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Well, perhaps I'm showing myself up.

6 Q. But, Mr. Banduka, the learned Judge asked, as I've already said, a

7 very apposite question. I think we can deal with it like this. You had

8 said when you arrived here and indeed in your testimony today that this in

9 fact said there were 12 victims of this massacre. The learned Judge

10 counted 14 names. Why have you made what appears to be a mistake?

11 A. I didn't count them. However, at the beginning of the text, you

12 see it says "the federal commission for the search for the missing.

13 Yesterday, at the locality of the quarry in Krupac, near Sarajevo, exhumed

14 12 bodies" and so on.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interprets note that the text continues and

16 says --

17 JUDGE ORIE: I looked at that, of course, before I started

18 counting, and I saw the number 12, which is then followed by a part which

19 says "i tri." And I wondered whether that was supplementary to the 12

20 bodies. But perhaps the interpreters could read -- translate that first

21 sentence and see whether it really is limited to 12.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, it says 12 bodies and 3 bags of

23 human bones which could not be added to any of those bodies.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So and this, of course, is not without

25 significance that what is presented as facts is not only taken from a

Page 18688

1 newspaper article, although the newspaper article refers to another source

2 on which this witness relied. But it's also an incomplete reading of the

3 newspaper article. So we have then three weaknesses. The first is the

4 imprecise reading, the second is that it's a newspaper article instead of

5 a primary source; the third is that we do not have the originals.

6 I'm not saying that for that reason it's totally -- that it could

7 not be used in whatever way, but this kind of material risks -- at least

8 gives a greater risk of this kind of confusion and imprecision.

9 Therefore, more primary sources would be preferred. But we have now dealt

10 with the matter. I don't think that it's a vital issue on the whole of

11 it, apart from that it sharpens our mind that we have to look very

12 carefully to a secondary or even lower-graded sources.

13 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, in one sense, over the last week and a

14 half, I've been here before, it's slightly a different scenario, but not a

15 million miles removed from this one. This Court has given me personally

16 great leeway in trying to come to terms with the Rules of Evidence here.

17 As the Court is aware, they are considerably more relaxed than what I'm

18 used to. If I am allowing evidence or trying to present to the Court

19 evidence that is simply really not admissible and is too far-fetched, then

20 I will endeavour to take heed of that. I certainly wouldn't be permitted

21 to do this at home. I can tell the Court that.

22 JUDGE ORIE: But you'll also understand, Mr. Josse, that if we say

23 that the Rules are considerably more relaxed, that's certainly true in

24 terms of formal rules. At the same time, as professional Judges, I hope

25 you'll understand that as far as the substance of the evidence is

Page 18689

1 concerned, we tried not to be in any way even a millimetre more relaxed

2 than any other court would do.

3 MR. JOSSE: I understand, and I'm grateful yet again.



6 Q. Mr. Banduka, we can hear you counting to yourself. You're

7 double-checking the names, is that right, or the numbers, perhaps I should

8 say?

9 A. Yes. I did point out that when I saw this article, I was confused

10 by what I heard.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, no one, I take it, assumes that where

12 you said you thought 14, but the newspaper article tells you 12, that if

13 we see that it's 14 in the newspaper article as well, it would only

14 support the reliability of your initial -- of the number you initially

15 gave to the Court. So don't worry about it. It's more important for us

16 at this moment than it is for you.

17 MR. JOSSE: That's the figure in the 65 ter, to be fair to this

18 witness. Excuse me.

19 [Defence counsel confer]

20 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps you'd put back on the ELMO the map that you

21 drew of the battle, or the front line.

22 Q. This map, now given a provisional exhibit number, as far as you're

23 concerned - and take this quite slowly, because it's important -

24 represents the front line at what period of time?

25 A. This was the front line, as I pointed out, at the very beginning

Page 18690

1 of the war. You can see from the names of the villages, of course, it was

2 difficult to draw a precise line on such a small-scale map. And let's say

3 when the fighting took place, the first fighting that I mentioned, and all

4 the fighting throughout May and June 1992, this was more or less at this

5 demarcation line.

6 Q. And in summary only, please: The fighting in May and June, give

7 us some idea of the course that it took, how persistent it was. Was it

8 daily? Who was doing what to whom?

9 A. Yes. I would first like to say what the most important dates are,

10 and we remember them by our losses. After this attack that I mentioned of

11 the 11th of May, there were no infantry battles until the 24th and 25th of

12 May. There was, however, shelling, artillery duels, so to speak. There

13 was an attack on the 25th, another large-scale attack, especially from the

14 directions I mentioned previously. An attack through Kasatici, Tinovo.

15 These were very fierce attacks, and we had 25 men killed.

16 Then there was an attack, as far as I can recall, on the 6th of

17 June, the 10th of June, the 16th of June. I remember those dates because

18 that was when we had losses. Unfortunately, that's the kind of date a man

19 remembers most easily.

20 We had the most intensive fighting and the fiercest attacks in May

21 and June.

22 Q. And what was the Serb response to those attacks?

23 A. Well, I can tell you what I think, and you can see this by looking

24 at the map and other relevant information. The fighting was such that it

25 was the Muslims who attacked, and we defended ourselves. We began to dig

Page 18691












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18692

1 trenches, to build fortifications, dig connecting trenches, and so on.

2 Q. You told us at the start of your evidence that you joined the

3 army. When exactly did you join the army?

4 A. I joined the army in early July, around the 10th of July. But

5 there's a big question here. What does it mean to join the army? It

6 wasn't a traditional sort of army, like the kind you find in textbooks.

7 It was organised people defending their homes and their very lives. All

8 the villages within this line were inhabited mainly by Serbs. The Serb

9 population was concentrated in this area. And if I tell you that the

10 defence line was a hundred metres away from my house, that tells you

11 everything.

12 Q. And particularly in May and June that you initially talked about,

13 who was controlling the Serb forces in Hadzici?

14 A. Well, I think I've already said that. From the 18th to the 20th

15 of May, I think the JNA officially withdrew from all of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina. So there weren't any in Hadzici. And then, as far as I

17 know, the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska was established, and

18 I think that by July, the law on defence and the law on the army had been

19 enacted, and of course the army was under military command, the command of

20 the staff. This was the period in which the army was constituted. The

21 people defending themselves were transformed into organised military

22 units. In that period, as far as I can recall, the headquarters of the

23 army command was in Zunovnica, and I think it was a battalion, the unit

24 that was there. I am not really very familiar with military terminology.

25 But it was under the command of the army.

Page 18693

1 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to ask a question.

2 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm not quite sure about

3 the explanations which I've been given. That's why I need clarification.

4 During these attacks which took place on the 11th of May or the 25th May

5 or the 6th of May or the 10th of June and the 16th of June, how and by

6 whom are the Serb combatants, who are they until the 16th of June? These

7 units, who composes them? Was it only inhabitants, citizens of the

8 village who had weapons and who were fighting? Is that what we are to

9 understand?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was the local population

11 who lived in the area.

12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And there were no other

13 combatants? Because we heard that in other parts, in other areas, there

14 were groups which were called paramilitary. There were no paramilitary

15 groups there? Those were only inhabitants, those were only citizens of

16 those villages who took weapons and who defended themselves? That's it?

17 Is that it?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What I don't understand very

20 easily: You say that these combats were extremely fierce, with bombs, and

21 this sounds more like professional combat, professional fighting, with

22 troops, with military troops, rather than civilians who have taken weapons

23 and who are fighting to defend themselves or their homes. Hearing your

24 description of it, and the answers which you have now given, I think

25 there's a sort of discrepancy. Perhaps it's only an impression that I

Page 18694

1 have, but ...

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what Your Honour means.

3 What kind of discrepancy? I'm talking about the attackers, not about us

4 who were defending ourselves. I'm talking about the attackers. They

5 shelled Hadzici daily. Your Honour is correct. This couldn't be done by

6 someone who didn't know how to handle a mortar or a gun, but all those

7 people had done military service. Every citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina

8 and the former Yugoslavia had to do a year's military service and were

9 trained, either as infantry or artillery.

10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So it's quite clear, sir. I hope

11 I'm not making any mistake in interpreting what you've said. On the

12 Muslim side, one had a lot of weaponry, you had guns, possibility of

13 shooting shells, firing shells, and on the other side, there were only

14 civilians who had weapons and who were defending themselves, and this

15 until the 16th of June?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What does Your Honour mean by the

17 16th of June? I don't understand.

18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] You told us that there had been

19 attacks which had been particularly fierce, which had taken place on the

20 25th of May, the 6th of June, the 10th of June, and the 16th of June.

21 Let's stop at the 16th of June. My question is the following: Was there

22 a difference, a substantial difference, between the weaponry of the

23 Muslims who were attacking and the weaponry which the defenders had at

24 their disposal, that is to say, the citizens of the village of Hadzici? Is

25 my question now clear to you?

Page 18695

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I think so. I can't tell you

2 what kind of weapons the Muslims had up there, but we know more or less

3 what was left in the barracks. I can, however, conclude what they had on

4 the basis of the fact that hundreds of shells landed daily, very

5 destructive ones. As far as I can recall, on the 16th of June, some

6 warehouses were hit. These were actually depots containing old weapons,

7 and one of them exploded. It was almost like an earthquake in Hadzici.

8 This arms depot was hit and exploded. This explosion had to be caused by

9 a highly destructive projectile. It couldn't have been done by a bullet.

10 When you say there's a fierce attack and you know that 25 men were killed

11 in one day, then this is not a caress; it's a fierce attack. When I

12 say "attacks," and to link this up with this line I drew on the map: On

13 the 25th, in Kasatici, Muslim forces penetrated into the village of

14 Kasatici, which was half-and-half, and only four civilians were left

15 there, and everybody was killed and everything was burnt down.

16 In the village of Vrancici also, in this other direction, this was

17 also a mixed village. Only two Serbs were left there, and they were never

18 found. They're missing to this day.

19 I have to tell you that there were constant attacks on this area,

20 where we remained and where we were defending ourselves.

21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Very well, sir. I am happy to

22 see you understood my question. I want to thank you for your answer.

23 Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

25 MR. JOSSE: Yes. I'd like to take matters up from the point that

Page 18696

1 you've just got to.

2 Q. The 16th of June was a particularly unforgettable day for you

3 personally; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And why was that?

6 A. In this attack, as my house is at the end of the village of

7 Drozgometva, which had about a hundred houses, all of them Serb houses,

8 and my house was the one before the last. In the attack of that morning,

9 they broke through. No one was killed. People fled if they could. But

10 my house and the houses of my closest relatives, the Banduka family, were

11 all set on fire. The people pulled out. My 70-year-old mother took the

12 livestock and fled. She withdrew, actually, deeper into the village, and

13 the attacks were stopped at a certain line. But the part where the

14 Muslims did break through, everything was torched, and my house is gutted

15 to this day, unfortunately.

16 Q. I'll come to that in one moment's time. Where were you when this

17 happened?

18 A. At the time, I was at Tinovo hill, where I drew the line here,

19 because the Muslims had nearly reached the area. This is a hill of some

20 800 to 900 metres of height, and one could command the view of Hadzici

21 fully. You could almost throw a stone and it would reach the centre of

22 Hadzici.

23 Although we were assigned some different tasks, we went to the

24 area and managed to retrieve it, because had this part been taken, we

25 would not have been able to survive in Hadzici. One would not be able to

Page 18697

1 stay there. One would be within range of a pistol, literally.

2 Q. And when did you learn of the attack on your home? How long after

3 the event, in other words?

4 A. It was that same evening that we learnt about it, because we

5 consolidated our position on Tinovo hill, which is some five to six

6 kilometres away from my house. The houses were still ablaze, and they

7 were in fact still ablaze the following day. Only later on did we manage

8 to move the line a bit forward to the positions that I indicated

9 previously.

10 Q. And when did you manage to return to the village to see at close

11 hand the damage that had been done?

12 A. Two or three days later. The configuration of the lapped was such

13 that if you were at the top of a hill you could see as far as the other

14 hill. I was able to come a bit closer, thanks to the situation, and then

15 I was able to see for myself what had happened there.

16 Q. And you have brought to this Court a number of photographs that

17 you took in June of this year, one of your house and four of the village

18 church; is that right?

19 A. Yes. But the church is not in my village; it is rather the church

20 in Pazaric, which is controlled by the Muslims, whereas the photographs of

21 the house do depict my own house in my village.

22 Q. Thank you. We'll come to the church in a moment. Perhaps I can

23 hand you the house. That's a photograph, isn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You've told us you took that in June of this year. And did the

Page 18698

1 house look something like that after the attack?

2 JUDGE ORIE: With some reflection --

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- we get rid of that so we can better see.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can see it well here. The

6 house looked far worse than this. We managed to clear away the rubble.

7 You can see that we have made a concrete slab here. I was trying to

8 reconstruct the house. That's why it is covered in here. But there are

9 some other photographs that show what it actually looked like immediately

10 afterwards.

11 MR. JOSSE: For my purposes, Your Honour, this will suffice. I'd

12 in due course ask that that be given an exhibit number.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That one photograph will be D109, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that copies are still to be made.

16 MR. JOSSE: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll receive them, then. Please proceed.

18 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The originals should be given to the registrar now

20 and marked. And then perhaps under those circumstances, since it is a

21 photograph, would there be a possibility to have the photograph copied,

22 Mr. Registrar, by you, exceptionally? Yes. Then you don't have to care

23 about that, and the chain of custody is guaranteed.

24 MR. JOSSE: I'm grateful to all concerned.

25 Q. This is the church --

Page 18699

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Harmon.

2 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I think I know where counsel is going,

3 and if we're going to be displaying a picture of a destroyed church in a

4 village in Muslim-occupied territory, I don't see the relevance of it in

5 this case. We previously discussed tu quoque, and I would invite the

6 Court to invite counsel to identify what the relevance is of photographs

7 of a destroyed church in Pazaric.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Josse, first of all, I do not know whether

9 Mr. Harmon's assumption is right, that you'd now go to the church.

10 MR. JOSSE: That is something that is absolutely right.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please respond to his question. He

12 says tu quoque is not a rule that can be applied in international

13 humanitarian law. To make it a bit more easy to you: I can imagine that,

14 whereas we now and then hear from what would seem to be clear violations

15 of international humanitarian law, from the non-Serb side, I mean the

16 witness just testified on something that could be perceived, although we

17 have of course not sufficient details, as attacks on civilian targets,

18 which is also prohibited by international humanitarian law. So sometimes

19 it helps to understand a bit of the background and a bit of the feelings

20 that, well, that the people might have had at that time. If that's the

21 reason why you wanted to show it to us, then I would say that it's your

22 time and I would advise you to pay then proportionate attention to such an

23 issue. If, however, there's anything of tu quoque involved, then of

24 course you should explain that.

25 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps the witness should take his earphones off.

Page 18700

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, I'll ask him. Do you understand

2 any English?

3 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter isn't certain whether the

5 witness said yes or no.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can understand.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You can understand. Okay. Then it is not

8 sufficient, Mr. Josse, if he takes his earphone off, because he can hear

9 what you're saying.

10 MR. JOSSE: I think we may have been at cross-purposes there, but

11 let's take no chances. He'll have to leave the courtroom. I thought he

12 didn't understand any English.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Might have saved you some time.

14 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, could I just ask you to leave the

16 courtroom for one or two seconds. We're dealing with a procedural matter,

17 and that should be discussed not in your presence.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 MR. JOSSE: A similar objection was made by my learned friend

21 Mr. Tieger, when I was examining Mr. Djordjevic, and, broadly speaking, I

22 accepted the objection on that occasion because of the period of time to

23 which the witness was attesting. Again, it was his own personal tragedy

24 that he was dealing with. This, in my submission, is completely

25 different, and my learned friend's objection is fundamentally flawed. Of

Page 18701

1 course we're not advancing the defence that's just been mentioned. Of

2 course we're not. But in terms of the context of what went on in Hadzici,

3 these particular atrocities, as alleged by the witness, are of real

4 importance. In a few moments' time, I'm going to go on and deal with,

5 from our point of view, the not very easy topic of the detention of Muslim

6 civilians in the sports and cultural centre in Hadzici itself, the witness

7 having some knowledge of that.

8 Well, these various events need to be put into very clear context

9 of what was going on around those who were, as alleged by the Prosecution,

10 detaining people, maltreating them, so on and so forth. Not an excuse; of

11 course not. But in terms of context, I contend, I go rather further than

12 the way Your Honour put it, it's actually essential for a clear

13 understanding of the testimony of the -- of this particular witness. And

14 my learned friend's objection is, with respect, fundamentally

15 misconceived.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, any further -- we should take care that

17 we do not spend more time on the procedural issue than on hearing a few

18 background facts which create a context, which may make it better

19 understandable how, on the ground, people reacted.

20 MR. HARMON: I understand, Your Honour, and I have nothing further

21 to add.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then you may proceed, Mr. Josse. And my guidance

23 that you pay proportionate time on it is still valid.

24 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I, before we bring the witness

25 back, since he's out of Court, could we go on to a slightly thorny issue,

Page 18702

1 from my point of view, and that's where I'm going and where we're going

2 time-wise, so far as this witness is concerned. Clearly, I'm not going to

3 finish today. I have -- as a result, I have some further documents to

4 review overnight. Any documents that I might adduce, I have now

5 provided - I think I've already told the Court - to the Prosecution. The

6 Court clearly needs to decide the order of matters tomorrow. Personally,

7 personally, I would rather continue my examination-in-chief of this

8 witness first thing Monday morning.

9 There is this issue of possible video which hasn't yet been seen.

10 I would give myself a time restriction of one further hour after the close

11 of business today. Or, alternatively, Your Honour, perhaps we could use

12 some of the time tomorrow and the Court might leave me in a position to

13 finish my examination-in-chief on Monday. I'd be quite content to do it

14 that way.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, any response to -- or any suggestion?

16 MR. HARMON: I have not seen the video, Your Honour. I don't have

17 a copy of the video. So I don't know if it's going to be used, what is in

18 it, and what is relevant. I don't know when I can expect to receive a

19 copy of that video. We had planned originally to have Mr. Kasagic

20 continue his examination tomorrow and conclude his examination tomorrow,

21 but we're obviously going over. My preference is to finish with this

22 witness on his direct examination tomorrow and then start with

23 Mr. Kasagic.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And since the examination-in-chief of

25 Mr. Kasagic took approximately, well, two and three-quarters of an hour,

Page 18703

1 some of the time was taken by the Judges, it might even -- I mean, it

2 depends on how much time we'd need, Mr. Josse, for the further

3 examination-in-chief of Mr. Banduka. It's already very unfortunate that

4 we have to split up examination-in-chief and cross-examination. If we

5 would cut halfway the examination-in-chief, that would be even more

6 unfortunate, I would say. So let's see if the Prosecution could finish

7 the cross-examination of Mr. Kasagic the second half of the morning. And

8 if you would take some time in the first part of the morning, then --

9 MR. JOSSE: My difficulty, Your Honour, is we're going to finish

10 at 7.00. I'm going to have to resume at 9.00. I've already described

11 some of the tasks that I have to do. The video will not be in a position

12 for presentation at 9.00 tomorrow morning. That's the first point.

13 The second point is this: In my submission, it would be desirable

14 to get Mr. Kasagic out of the way, and then really review how much time we

15 have remaining, both on Friday and Monday, to deal with Mr. Kasagic.

16 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, one of the things, if you look at

17 the video this evening, you might make up your mind as to whether it's

18 really something that could be -- also could be considered as a contextual

19 exhibit. Sometimes these individual videos show a lot of relatively --

20 matters that are only of relative importance. Of course, I do not know

21 what it is, but to wait and have it all copied if it would not assist

22 much. Of course, but I've got no idea.

23 I'd suggest that we prepare for all solutions, and as soon as you

24 know anything more to give notice, in a way -- of course, I prefer not --

25 to spend my evenings quietly, but I'd rather get a short telephone call

Page 18704

1 and to know what we're about to do tomorrow. And perhaps Mr. Harmon would

2 be in a similar position, that he'd prefer to get the information once

3 you've worked on it for a couple of hours.

4 MR. JOSSE: I'm sorry. I'm shaking my head, because Your Honour,

5 with respect, needs to make a decision this evening. If Your Honour says

6 I need to continue at 9.00 tomorrow, that's what I'll do.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I can't take a decision, but --

8 MR. JOSSE: Could I make one other observation, and that's this:

9 If the Court says I need to continue with this examination in the morning,

10 could the Court ensure that I have to finish so that Mr. Kasagic is

11 finished tomorrow. Because I can see the scenario that the Prosecution

12 will then say they need more time for Mr. Kasagic, and that wouldn't be

13 fair on him. They're ready to cross-examine him. In my submission,

14 that's what should happen first of all.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an indication of how much time

16 you'd need for Mr. Kasagic?

17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm not going to be doing the

18 cross-examination, but I have spoken with Mr. Tieger, and Mr. Tieger --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Will need more time than usual.

20 MR. HARMON: He's going to need more time than usual.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was indicated before. Let me just --

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Under those circumstances, weighing several

25 interests, that is, finishing the cross-examination of Mr. Kasagic, and

Page 18705

1 what the result would be if we would continue tomorrow morning with

2 Mr. Banduka, the Chamber would prefer to interrupt the

3 examination-in-chief, start the cross-examination of Mr. Kasagic, as

4 scheduled, tomorrow, and hopefully finish. I see Mr. Tieger comes in, and

5 I don't know whether he considers it to be the good or the bad news.

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I had an opportunity to look quickly at

7 the transcript, the exchange that took place, while I was on my way down.

8 I simply wanted to ensure that the information that Mr. Harmon provided to

9 the Court as I was en route was going to be provided, and I see my trip

10 was unnecessary.


12 MR. TIEGER: I'm glad my colleague anticipated me.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, some messages were received by the

14 Chamber that the 60 per cent guidance that the OTP might prefer to spend a

15 bit more time on Mr. Kasagic and perhaps save that at another moment. The

16 examination-in-chief, apart from the questions of the Judges, took

17 approximately two and three-quarters of an hour. If you take more than

18 the 60 per cent, would there be any chance that you would not finish by

19 tomorrow?

20 MR. TIEGER: Again, it's certainly been my intention to complete

21 the examination tomorrow. When you say "any chance," the effort to do so

22 involves, in part, identifying more expedient methods of presenting

23 evidence and showing evidence to the witness. I'm trying to do so. I

24 think I'll have good cooperation from my learned friends on the Defence.

25 And with that in mind, I certainly hope to achieve that. I wouldn't --

Page 18706

1 that was the reason, by the way, for agreeing that the order of

2 cross-examination would be reversed, because the Court did point out that

3 it would be preferable to permit Mr. Kasagic to leave by the end of the

4 weekend. So I had that in mind and I'm still trying. But I -- there's a

5 lot of material and I'm still working on it in the manner I just

6 described.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll start tomorrow morning with the

8 cross-examination of Mr. Kasagic, and in the expectation that it will be

9 finished. And as soon as anyone has reasons to believe that this

10 expectation would not be fulfilled, then the Chamber would like to be

11 informed, not at the moment that we are there, but at the earliest moment

12 possible.

13 MR. JOSSE: One last question.


15 MR. JOSSE: When should the victims and witness service bring

16 Mr. Banduka to this Court tomorrow, if at all?

17 JUDGE ORIE: From what I understand from Mr. Tieger, it would only

18 be for a very limited moment.

19 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we say that the Victims and Witnesses Section

21 should organise in such a way that Mr. Banduka is standby and that they

22 receive a message not later than by 11.00 whether there's any chance that

23 Mr. Banduka should appear.

24 MR. JOSSE: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that's clear, then -- we've got only seven

Page 18707

1 minutes left, but let's use our time as good as possible.

2 MR. JOSSE: I'll deal with these photographs, if I may, now.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the proportionate time is ...

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, Mr. Josse will continue

6 cross-examination. We also discussed another procedural matter, that is,

7 when the examination will continue. There is a chance that you'll be

8 further examined in chief by Mr. Josse in the second part of tomorrow

9 morning, but we'll ask the Victims and Witnesses Section to keep you

10 standby but not later than by 11.00 they'll be informed whether there's a

11 chance at all whether we'll continue tomorrow morning. If not, then it

12 will be at the beginning of next week.

13 Please continue, Mr. Josse.


15 Q. Have a look at the photographs that we were talking about a short

16 while ago. Listen carefully to my questions, because I think we can deal

17 with this shortly. Where does that church stand? In which village?

18 A. Pazaric. To be precise, the village of Osenik.

19 Q. And really, we should look at the map as well, unfortunately,

20 because -- it better be put on the ELMO, please.

21 Point it out, please.

22 A. Kazina Bara is the exact name.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness please mark that.


25 Q. Could you mark that spot with the black pen.

Page 18708

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. And, as I say, just answer the questions I ask you. When was that

3 church damaged?

4 A. To my knowledge, in the summer of 1992, this was Muslim-controlled

5 territory, so I can't give you the precise date.

6 Q. And your knowledge comes from what source, please?

7 A. You see, throughout the war, people somehow left the area across

8 Kiseljak, and we received the information as early as in the month of

9 August from people who were either exchanged or had somehow managed to

10 keep in touch with the people in Pazaric.

11 Q. And when was the last time before the war you had visited that

12 church?

13 A. The last time I was there was, I believe, in the spring of 1992. I

14 think that it was on the occasion of our Orthodox holiday, Easter,

15 sometime in early April.

16 Q. And was the church damaged at that time?

17 A. Yes. No. Or rather, at the time, the service was normally held

18 there, as usual.

19 Q. And you took those photographs this summer; is that right?

20 A. Yes, in July.

21 Q. And one other question. When was the first time after or during

22 the war you returned to the village and saw the church in its damaged

23 state?

24 A. When I took the photograph. That was the first time.

25 MR. JOSSE: I don't know whether Your Honour would like -- perhaps

Page 18709

1 the four photographs could quickly be put on the ELMO, one after the

2 other. I suspect we can deal with them very rapidly.

3 Q. That's obviously the exterior of the church; is that right,

4 Mr. Banduka?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps that could be marked A, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We perhaps -- could we deal with all the

8 photographs under one number and call them the home, A, and then the first

9 picture of the church B, and then C, D, and E?

10 MR. JOSSE: Certainly.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So we have then, we have finally five.

12 MR. JOSSE: Next one, please.

13 Q. Is that the interior of the church?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Next one, please. Another view of the interior?

16 A. No. This is from the outside. It is the other entrance. The

17 church had two entrances.

18 Q. And the last photograph. That's it. Thank you.

19 And are you able to say, from what you saw, how the damage had

20 been caused?

21 A. I saw -- on the basis of what I saw, I realised that it must have

22 been set on fire, but there were also some other elements there. Here you

23 can see on this photograph that there was appended, or rather, adjoining

24 this church, a building occupied by the priest. I found the house now

25 occupied by the Roma people and the backyard is full of agricultural

Page 18710

1 machinery, livestock, dogs, and so on.

2 MR. JOSSE: I've no other questions on this particular topic,

3 Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn for the day.

5 Mr. Banduka, as I just told you, you're invited to remain standby.

6 We do not know whether we'll see you tomorrow or whether it will be at the

7 beginning of next week. If you would please follow the guidance of the

8 Victims and Witnesses Section.

9 I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak to anyone or

10 communicate in whatever way about the testimony you have given until now

11 or you still are about to give, either tomorrow or next week. Do you

12 understand that?

13 Then we will adjourn until tomorrow --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, in this

16 same courtroom.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Friday, the 18th day of

19 November 2005, at 9.00 a.m.