1 Tuesday, 6 December 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.39 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Mr. Stewart, before we ask the usher to escort the witness into
11 the courtroom, could you give us an estimate on how much time you'd still
13 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, certainly. I shall finish
14 comfortably within the first session. As I indicated to Mr. Tieger
15 yesterday, I expected to finish in this session. And at the moment,
16 Your Honour, I expect that I will finish comfortably within one hour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because we'd like to find some time, at least,
18 to deal with some procedural matters as well. It might be after the first
20 Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
22 Mr. Stewart, perhaps I'm ready to inform you about one of the
23 issues not to be discussed at this moment is the two weeks advanced notice
24 of witnesses and summaries which seems not -- where you earlier talked
25 about always slippage somewhere, that what seems now to be routine rather
1 than slippage somewhere.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's the matter I would like to discuss at a later
4 stage this afternoon, but perhaps already for you to be aware of what it
6 Good afternoon, Ms. Hrvacanin. Before I remind you that you're
7 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given yesterday, I must admit
8 to the parties that I made a mistake yesterday by not asking the witness
9 not to speak with -- or not asking, but not instructing the witness to
10 speak with anyone about the testimony already given and still to be given.
11 I noticed after the hearing that I had forgotten this.
12 Mrs. Hrvacanin, were you informed by the Victims and Witnesses
13 Section that you should not speak with anyone about your testimony?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Madam Rita told me about this.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And may I take it that you followed that
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I only spoke to my husband,
18 but only about the state of his health.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I apologise for not having instructed you and
20 to the parties as well. But I thought it was better to deal with it in
21 open court so that we also know that Madam Hrvacanin was instructed,
22 although through other channels, not to speak with anyone and that she
23 adhered to those instructions.
24 Mr. Stewart.
25 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I feel I should have issued a
1 reminder, Your Honour, as well. But if it offers any additional
2 reassurance, I had previously impressed on Ms. Hrvacanin that she should
3 and would be incommunicado during her evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
5 Ms. Hrvacanin, as I said before, I remind you that you're still
6 bound by this solemn declaration that you gave yesterday.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
8 WITNESS: SLOBODANKA HRVACANIN [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Examined by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]
11 Q. Ms. Hrvacanin, you gave evidence yesterday about the frequency of
12 your visits to Sarajevo over various periods and your attendance at the
13 Main Board. I want to ask you about Main Board meetings. When you first
14 were a member of the Main Board from sometime in 1990 onwards, what was a
15 typical number of people who were present at a Main Board meeting when you
17 A. At first it was between 20 and 25 people.
18 Q. And who in the early months when you attended Main Board meetings,
19 if it was indeed the same person, who presided over those meetings?
20 A. President Karadzic.
21 Q. Did that remain the position during the whole of 1990 to 1992,
22 whenever you attended Main Board meetings?
23 A. That's the way it was all the time.
24 Q. Was Dr. Karadzic always there or were there occasions when, for
25 whatever reason, he wasn't present at Main Board meetings?
1 A. No. He was always at Main Board meetings.
2 Q. Was -- were there any other senior figures in the SDS who were
3 either always present or, for practical purposes, nearly always present?
4 A. The Main Board meetings were usually attended by members of the
5 Main Board. Other people came very seldom, except when necessary.
6 Mrs. Plavsic was not a member of the Main Board, but she often attended
7 Main Board meetings.
8 Q. Were there any other senior figures in the SDS who also often
9 attended Main Board meetings?
10 A. I'm not sure that I understood your question properly. Were --
11 was there a sufficient member of other senior figures? I mean, if I said
12 that there were members of the Main Board there, I think I've said enough.
13 Q. Well, I'm going to, just for the tiny warning to Mr. Tieger, I'm
14 going to risk giving you a batch of names that I'm going to ask you
15 about --
16 JUDGE ORIE: However, Mr. Stewart, it seems to me that perhaps due
17 to a bad translation that the witness had not fully understood the
18 question. Because the way in which she phrases the question when she says
19 that she answered that question already. So could we give it one more try
20 before you do that exercise. Perhaps I would try -- you said at the Main
21 Board meetings, that they were usually attended by members of the Main
22 Board and that other people came very seldom. Were there, among those
23 other people, who, although came seldom, that some people attended, if not
24 frequently then at least with some regularity? Could you name any of the
25 people that came in and attended, apart from Mrs. Plavsic?
1 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry. Could I say, with respect, Your Honour,
2 I'm having difficult with the question when it asks: Who among those who
3 came seldom attended, if not frequently at least with some regularly. We
4 seem to have, I believe, a bit of confusion being built in there, with
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Could you give us names of other senior SDS people, apart from
8 Mrs. Plavsic, you mentioned already, that would attend meetings of the
9 Main Board?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In addition to the members of the
11 Main Board, the members of the Executive Board attended, that is an
12 executive body of the Main Board. Meetings were also attended by some
13 presidents of municipalities when they happened to be there or if they had
14 some questions. Because in essence, Serbs are very inquisitive, they want
15 to know everything, and they also do not trust other people. So often
16 they attended such meetings. The late Vice-President Koljevic also
17 attended meetings. In 1990, I didn't see some other people who were
18 otherwise in political life at meetings of the Main Board.
19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, what I -- what I was proposing to do --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. STEWART: -- and it didn't seem to be a terrible piece of
22 leading, I was proposing to give a list of four, five, six names that
23 would indisputably, I submit, both for the Prosecution and the Defence, be
24 regarded as senior figures in the SDS. We wouldn't say they weren't, the
25 Prosecution say they weren't. I feel relatively confident, Your Honour,
1 that if I give a list of that nature, that's not going to frighten the
2 horses or Mr. Tieger unduly.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger is still sitting so I can't see that he
5 MR. TIEGER: I can't speak for the horses, Your Honour, but I'm
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
8 MR. STEWART:
9 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, among senior figures in the SDS who've been
10 discussed in this case, it might be included Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Koljevic,
11 Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Dukic, and, of course, Dr. Karadzic, who
12 you've already mentioned.
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I don't see Mr. Tieger falling apart
14 with fear and consternation of that list.
15 Q. Now, among those people, Mrs. Hrvacanin, you've mentioned
16 Dr. Karadzic already, you've mentioned Mr. Koljevic already. Of those
17 other people I've mentioned, did any of them attend with any frequency
18 Main Board meetings?
19 A. Well, you mentioned Mr. Velibor Ostojic; he attended all meetings.
20 You mentioned Mr. Dukic, Rajko; he also took part in all meetings. You
21 mentioned Mr. Krajisnik. In 1991 Mr. Krajisnik became a member of the
22 Main Board. Until 1990, he never attended meetings of the Main Board.
23 Well, he wasn't always present at Main Board meetings, but he was present
25 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, you said a moment ago "that I had mentioned
1 Mr. Krajisnik. In 1991 he became a member of the Main Board." Then you
2 said "until 1990 he never attended meetings of the Main Board." I just
3 ask you: Did Mr. Krajisnik ever attend meetings of the Main Board before
4 he became a member of the board in 1991?
5 A. No. I claim that with full responsibility, never.
6 Q. So after he became a member of the Main Board, can you remember
7 with what frequency, in percentage terms, of meetings Mr. Krajisnik
8 attended Main Board meetings?
9 A. No. I said that it wasn't very often, but he did attend sessions
10 of the Main Board. He didn't have any particular influence. He was
11 there. He listened to what other participants in the debate had to say.
12 He hardly ever took the floor at Main Board meetings.
13 Q. What -- during the period that you attended Main Board meetings --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, before we continue, the witness in the
15 last answer, you, Mrs. Hrvacanin, you said: "No. I said it wasn't very
16 often," whereas the transcript of one of your previous answers
17 reads: "Until 1990 he never attended meetings of the Main Board. Well,
18 he wasn't always present at Main Board meetings but he was present often."
19 Now a few lines later you say: "I said he was -- it wasn't very
20 often," whereas we get a translation of your testimony that he often
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that what I
23 said must have been mistranslated. What I said was the following, that
24 Mr. Krajisnik was not a member of the Main Board until 1990, and he never
25 attended Main Board meetings.
1 MR. STEWART:
2 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin --
3 A. Then --
4 Q. May I pause for a moment. His Honour read back to you an answer
5 where you said "until 1990 he never attended meetings of the Main Board,"
6 but I had asked you a supplemental question. Just now -- a moment ago you
7 said Mr. Krajisnik, not a member of the Main Board until 1990.
8 Mrs. Hrvacanin I feel safe in leading here. You have already said,
9 haven't you, and this is correct, Mr. Krajisnik did not become a member of
10 the Main Board until 1991. That's right, isn't it?
11 A. I can hear some music.
12 Q. We're all getting music, Your Honour, which is very pleasant in
13 its way but rather disruptive.
14 A. It's not right. It's not right. It doesn't allow me to focus.
15 Your Honour, I did not understand the question put by Mr. Stewart because
16 this music kept coming in and --
17 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, relax. I'm sure we shall sort out the music issue
18 for you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mrs. Hrvacanin, don't be afraid that anyone
20 puts music on the line in order to --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not afraid.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The music is gone now?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you repeat your question, Mr. Stewart.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1 MR. STEWART:
2 Q. Not to music this time, Mrs. Hrvacanin. It is quite clear, isn't
3 it, Mr. Krajisnik did not become a member of the Main Board until 1991?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. And before he became a member of the Main Board, he didn't attend
6 Main Board meetings. Is that also correct?
7 A. That's correct, too.
8 Q. And what I would now like you to do, Mrs. Hrvacanin, is just to
9 carefully concentrate on informing Their Honours how often, in your
10 recollection, Mr. Krajisnik attended Main Board meetings after he became a
12 A. When Mr. Krajisnik became a member of the Main Board, he attended
13 meetings but not often and not regularly. He was president of the
14 Assembly, so when he had time, when he was free, he attended meetings.
15 What the frequency was I cannot say. Was it five times? Was it ten
16 times? I did not go into such analyses, I am sorry, but it was often.
17 Q. The Main Board meetings that you attended, Mrs. Hrvacanin, what --
18 what sort of discussions, if you can say this, generally took place in
19 relation to SDS and political matters? What level and type of discussion
20 was there?
21 A. Well, usually it would be a discussion that would start with
22 current issues that had to be resolved. In 1991 the atmosphere was rather
23 heated. The then-Yugoslav army had left Slovenia. Then in Croatia the
24 army was being expelled, too, and we were very upset. When I say "we," I
25 think it was Serbs, Croats, and Muslims who felt upset. Regardless of the
1 fact that I'm an anti-communist, there is still a defence from the point
2 of view of every individual, and that was this army which, regrettably,
3 experienced such a fiasco.
4 At Main Board meetings there were discussions about the Yugoslav
5 national army, which considered us to be enemies. All nationalists, that
6 is, regardless of whether they were Serbs, Croats, or Muslims. So there
7 were such discussions. If anything were to happen, if our former state of
8 Yugoslavia were to fall apart, who would defend us? Since the Main Board
9 had regional representation from all parts of the former
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, then every member of the Main Board would speak about
11 what was topical for his region or area or town where he lived. Those
12 were mainly the subjects that the Main Board dealt with.
13 Q. Did the Main Board take decisions?
14 A. It depends which decisions.
15 Q. Well, is the answer yes or no? It took decisions?
16 A. It issues recommendations. It could not issue any decisions; it
17 was not in a position to do that. We were a democratic party, which was
18 organised according to a democratic principle. There were no orders and
19 there were no executions of any orders. We would pass conclusions on a
20 certain issue, and those conclusions were binding upon some and not
21 binding upon some others. So, in other words, nobody had to do what the
22 Main Board concluded.
23 Q. To whom or what did the Main Board issue recommendations?
24 A. To the members of the Main Board.
25 Q. So you're talking about the Main Board issuing recommendations to
1 the members of the Main Board. When you say "it issued recommendations to
2 the members of the Main Board," are you -- do you mean as a group or to
3 individual members?
4 A. Nobody received an individual order. An order was not issued to a
5 certain name, but when we arrived at a conclusion, we would agree that
6 something should be done. At that time we were talking about the
7 tripartite, administration in the municipalities, we opted for dialogue,
8 for the establishment of local governments. That was the agreement that
9 we were discussing at the time, so nobody was issued with any orders. It
10 was not a party that was in a position to issue any such orders.
11 Everybody could say whether they wanted to say, and if they didn't do
12 something, it was not punishable in any way for this failure to do
13 things -- or at least I was never punished for not following up on the
15 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, were you ever a member of the Executive Board of
16 the SDS?
17 A. No, never.
18 Q. Did you ever attend any meeting of the Executive Board of the SDS?
19 A. Never. Not once.
20 Q. Were you ever invited to a meeting of the Executive Board of the
22 A. No, never.
23 Q. Would you or did you have any expectation that you should or would
24 be invited to any meeting of the Executive Board of the SDS?
25 A. No, I didn't expect that. But on one occasion I wanted to attend
1 the meeting of the Main Board, but I was prevented from doing that. At
2 the time the president was Mr. Ostojic, and he said that those who were
3 not members of the Executive Board could not attend any of its meetings.
4 And I accepted that.
5 Q. Were you able, from your membership of the Main Board and any
6 other activities in connection with the SDS, to form any impression
7 yourself of the relative power and authority of the Main Board and the
8 executive committee?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Before the witness answers that question, could I
10 seek clarification from her previous answer.
11 I read your answer translated as it is in English, "but on one
12 occasion I wanted to attend the meeting of the Main Board, but I was
13 prevented from doing that. At the time the time the president was
14 Mr. Ostojic, and he said that those who were not members of the Executive
15 Board could not attend any of its meetings. And I accepted that."
16 Did you want to attend the meeting of the Main Board or of the
17 Executive Board?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Executive Board, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that's either translation or slip of the
20 tongue. Thank you for your clarification.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that was very well spotted, if I may
23 say so, Your Honour. I had not noticed that.
24 Q. The -- so what I was asking you then, Mrs. Hrvacanin, was whether
25 you were able to form any impression of the relative power and authority
1 of the Main Board and the executive committee, as between the two of them?
2 A. The Executive Board had more power. In my view the Main Board was
3 nothing but a debate club.
4 Q. Did the Main Board ever discuss six strategic objectives?
5 A. No, never.
6 Q. Did the Main Board ever discuss Crisis Staffs?
7 A. No, never.
8 Q. Did the Main Board ever discuss Variants A and B?
9 A. No, and I said it already yesterday, never.
10 Q. Did the Main Board discuss any aspect of any of the international
11 negotiations being conducted in relation to Bosnia?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you present on any occasion at any organ of the SDS when
14 reports were received of the outcome of such international negotiations?
15 A. Only if a member of the Main Board would put a question when
16 people went to The Hague or to Brussels to attend negotiations as to what
17 had happened there, what had been agreed there. If there was such an
18 initiative of one of the members of the Main Board, a report would be
19 submitted in one form or another. But that was a very rare occasion.
20 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, the next point I'm putting to you is not in
21 dispute. There was for a period in the early -- the spring and early
22 summer along to midsummer of 1992, a break in ease of transport and
23 communication between Banja Luka and Pale and a corridor was opened up
24 sometime in late June of 1992. But during that period of a break in ease
25 of communication, did you travel or did you go to Pale at any time?
1 A. Not during that period of time, never.
2 Q. Did you attend the meeting of the Republika Srpska Assembly held
3 in Banja Luka on the 12th of May, 1992?
4 A. I did.
5 Q. Do you recall any of the topics of discussion at that Assembly
7 A. Up to then Mrs. Plavsic and Professor Koljevic were elected to the
8 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina during the multi-party elections, and
9 they performed those duties up to that session. At that session,
10 Mr. Radovan Karadzic was proposed as a member of that Presidency. I was
11 informed by the media that Mr. Karadzic had been elected at the president
12 of the Presidency. Mrs. Plavsic and Professor Koljevic were its members,
13 and Dr. Karadzic became its president.
14 Q. Did you in 1992 have any knowledge of any organ or group known as
15 the expanded Presidency?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you -- in 1992, were you aware of any executive power
18 possessed by Mr. Krajisnik as a -- in whatever capacity as a senior figure
19 in the SDS?
20 A. Mr. Krajisnik was not a high-ranking member of the SDS. He was a
21 member of the Main Board, as anybody else. He was elected in the
22 multi-parliament -- multi-party elections. He became a deputy and
23 representative of all the three peoples. And later on, he represented
24 only the people of Republika Srpska. He was a member of the Serbian
25 Assembly. He was not a member of the extended Presidency. Such a
1 Presidency did not exist for that matter. There was a Presidency that
2 consisted of three members: Mr. Karadzic, Mrs. Plavsic, and
3 Professor Koljevic. As for some special authorities, Mr. Krajisnik did
4 not have any, save for his own authorities and competences within the work
5 of the Assembly.
6 Q. Within 1992 and specifically following that meeting of the 12th of
7 May, 1992, in Banja Luka, were you personally aware of anything relating
8 to the six strategic objectives?
9 A. There was talk about that. I personally don't know anything
10 particular about that.
11 Q. Where and between whom did that talk take place?
12 A. I'm talking about the media. I believe that Cutileiro's plan was
13 discussed by journalists and the six strategic goals. I personally didn't
14 see that.
15 Q. Within the --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to ask a question to the
18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm sorry to interrupt,
19 Mr. Stewart. It's about an answer that the witness gave us. Speaking
20 about Mr. Krajisnik, she said: He became deputy -- [In English] "And
21 representative of all three peoples, and later on he represented only the
22 people of Republika Srpska."
23 [Interpretation] That's what you said, right? That --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again the interpretation was not
25 good, Your Honour. I said that Mr. Krajisnik was elected as a member of
1 the Serbian Democratic Party during the multi-party elections. But he was
2 appointed into the Bosnian Assembly on behalf of all the three peoples,
3 the Croats, the Serbs, and the Muslims. When the Assembly divided, then
4 it was only the Serbian people, and Serbian representatives joined the SDS
5 group of representatives.
6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. But in your answer you seem
7 to neglect the fact that he was also president of the Assembly.
8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wonder whether it might be helped to
9 be specific about which Assembly Your Honour is mentioning at the end of
10 that question in order to --
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: Republika Srpska.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. He was the president of
13 the Assembly of Republika Srpska.
14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. So for you, doesn't that
15 mean that he had a more important role than just being an MP representing
16 the people?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was the first among the equals.
18 All the representatives stood a chance to be appointed presidents by the
19 way they got into power. The people had chosen them. And Mr. Krajisnik
20 was chosen to be president of the Assembly. He chaired the meetings of
21 the Assembly, but he did not have any particular power. He did not have
22 the power to appoint somebody or remove somebody from any position. He
23 could not issue orders to anybody. Knowing Mr. Krajisnik well, I don't
24 think it's in his nature to do that. He is a great democrat. He is a
25 very tolerant man, and he enjoyed a very charismatic reputation among the
1 people. And during the multi-party elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he
2 had been elected by the three peoples there. He was a very good chairman
3 of the Assembly meetings. There were no heated discussions when he
4 chaired the meetings, he didn't prevent anybody from speaking, and that's
5 why he was very popular. But he was not powerful.
6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Now, regarding Republika Srpska,
7 could you say that he had a certain authority on his colleagues, over his
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but not the highest authority.
10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What authority did he have?
11 Could you expand on this a little bit.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my previous answer I told you
13 that Mr. Krajisnik did not have a lot of influence, either on the police
14 or on the army, either on any of the ministers or on their appointments or
15 removals, for that matter. His function and his authorities were within
16 the framework of the work that he did, and that was stipulated by the law.
17 I am a doctor. I'm not familiar with the law. I apologise, but this is
18 what I can say because this is as much as I know. His authorities stemmed
19 from the law that provided him with that authority.
20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [No interpretation]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, may I ask the attention, both of
22 you, Mr. Stewart and Mr. Tieger, page 14, lines 12 to 18, the answer
23 starts with: "The election of Mrs. Plavsic and Professor Koljevic to the
24 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina." Later on in that answer the
25 words "Presidency" is used again, but I understand this reference to the
1 Presidency not as a reference to the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina
2 anymore but to the Presidency of Republika Srpska, although it's not
3 explicit. If you would understand it in different way, it should be
4 clarified with the witness. If that's your common understanding, then we
5 can proceed.
6 MR. STEWART: That's my understanding, Your Honour, and I don't
7 see Mr. Tieger --
8 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we can proceed.
10 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Yes, Your Honour, may I be clear that Judge Hanoteau finished
12 his --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he finished, and then I raised --
14 MR. STEWART: I'm obliged, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 Q. The -- Mrs. Hrvacanin, at the time of the Banja Luka, Republika
16 Srpska, meeting on the 12th of May, 1992, what -- can you say what degree
17 of either satisfaction or dissatisfaction there was among you and your
18 other active colleagues in the SDS about the formulation of goals for the
20 A. I apologise. At that meeting we did not discuss the goals of the
21 party. Those were a parliamentary Assembly meeting attended by the
22 deputies, if we are referring to the 12th of May, 1992.
23 Q. And, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I'm really focussing on the date that the --
24 the time of mid-May 1992. So just to put a date on it and asking you
25 whether at that time, mid-May 1992, whether you can say what level of
1 satisfaction or dissatisfaction there was among active members of the SDS
2 about the formulation of goals of the SDS?
3 A. At that Assembly meeting there were no SDS goals. The only thing
4 that happened was the election of President Karadzic. There were no other
5 goals mentioned as far as I know.
6 Q. Were you personally, as a member of the SDS at that time,
7 satisfied that the party's goals were sufficiently clear?
8 A. I was satisfied. I would not have been a member of that party had
9 I not been satisfied.
10 Q. Just going back to Zenica. You, of course, had left as you told
11 Their Honours. But did you -- in the period as you were leaving and after
12 you left Zenica at the end of February 1992, did you come into any sort of
13 conflict with your former friends and colleagues in Zenica?
14 A. No, never. I am not fond of conflict. I am that kind of person.
15 I always seek dialogue among people.
16 Q. Was there any type of disagreement about your activities with
17 anybody in Zenica at that time?
18 A. There were disagreements. They didn't like me being in the SDS.
19 My colleagues at work told me that I should leave the party. My colleague
20 Alic was a member of the SDA. I was his boss, the head of his service.
21 So I told him: "If you can be a member of your party, why can't I be a
22 member of mine?" And he said: "Of course." I did not enter any
23 particular conflict with anybody. I was not in conflict with anybody.
24 Q. Was any action taken by anybody in Zenica that had a bearing on
25 your own reputation?
1 A. Yes, of course, that did happen. When I left Zenica, some people
2 did not like the fact that I had saved my hide and that I'm still alive
3 today. There were plans for my assassination. Then they started telling
4 really bad things about me. One of them was that I had given the list of
5 SDS members and of all Serbs to the Muslims, and that based on those
6 lists, the Muslims went on to arrest the Serbs and incarcerate them in the
7 KP Dom Zenica where they were later on ill-treated, starved to death. At
8 one point in time, there were over 300 such people. Mr. Milan Mitrovic
9 wrote a book about that, describing the hardships of Serbs in Central
10 Bosnia. And there was also a serial in Glas Srpski a newspaper published
11 in Banja Luka during the communist times. The name of that paper was only
12 Glas, not Glas Srpski. Well, since I wasn't killed by the Muslims, the
13 Serbs wanted to be the end of me because I had betrayed them. I had a lot
14 of problems with that.
15 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, first of all, who was it who said that you had
16 given lists of SDS members to the Muslims?
17 A. I don't know. This was a story I heard. Mr. Stojan Zivanovic,
18 who is a professor at the school of philosophy in Banja Luka and who is a
19 native of Zenica told me once the war was over -- I was in Zenica and I
20 asked the people whether you had provided the Muslims with some lists.
21 And they said no. And then he said to them: But there are stories to
22 that effect. I don't know who spread those stories, but I know that that
23 story came from Zenica with every refugee that arrived in the territory of
24 Banja Luka.
25 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, first of all when you were in Zenica did you in
1 fact have access to lists of SDS members?
2 A. No, I did not have access to SDS members. This was done by the
3 technical service and the secretary. I never looked at the list of SDS
4 members. I personally believe that this was a private matter of every
5 individual. An affiliation to a party is a private thing. Nobody should
6 know that, and I didn't know who members of the SDS were. I knew about
7 some of my associates, the inner circle of my associates, if they were
8 members of the SDS.
9 Q. Was there any truth in any suggestion that you had supplied
10 information about SDS membership in any way to Muslims?
11 A. God forbid. I left suddenly. Nobody knew. The chief
12 administrator of my institution knew because I had told him that I could
13 no longer bear the physical threats. I asked him for an unpaid leave of
14 two months, and then if I could not find a job and a livelihood in Banja
15 Luka, I volunteered to come back to Zenica. He was astonished when he
16 heard that I was leaving. And he said to me: What is the matter with
17 you? You can't leave here. We can protect you. I don't want to lose you
18 as a professional. Unfortunately, I left my husband, stayed there during
19 those two months, and he told me that I should not come back, that I
20 should stay where I was at all costs.
21 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, thank you.
22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I have no further questions for
23 Mrs. Hrvacanin.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.
25 Perhaps, Mr. Tieger, we are -- I wouldn't say close to the time
1 where we usually have a break since we had a late start. Would you
2 nevertheless prefer to have the break now and then start your
3 cross-examination? Or would you rather start now and have a break to stop
4 in, let's say, approximately 15 minutes.
5 MR. TIEGER: I would prefer the break initially, Your Honour,
6 particularly if we're going to address some procedural matters.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. TIEGER: That seems to make more sense.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then before we have a break, I have one
10 additional question directly related to questions about SDS membership.
11 Could you tell us how many SDS members there were approximately in Zenica?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you look at the plebiscite list,
13 you will see that the number was large. There were probably over 2 or
14 3.000 of them.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is this to say that those who participated in the
16 plebiscite were all SDS members?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Over 20.000 people took part in
18 the plebiscite.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How could I see on those -- on the plebiscite
20 list, which I think is not in evidence as far as Zenica is concerned -- is
21 it indicated that someone is an SDS member or -- because you say: "If you
22 look at the plebiscite list, you will see that the number is large."
23 I was talking about members of the SDS in Zenica. So how could I
24 read that from that list? Is it indicated, or is there any other way to
25 find out about SDS membership of those who participated in the plebiscite?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no. This was not indicated in
2 any way. God forbid that anybody should be marked as an SDS member if
3 they participated in the plebiscite. The Muslims and Croats who wanted to
4 live in a joint state participated in the plebiscite as well, not only
5 Serbs. But when I say that there were over 3.000 of them --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say there were 2 or 3.000, although we
7 cannot learn that from the list. Is that correct?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have those lists. I only
9 have a photo from the founding Assembly of the SDS, and you can tell by
10 the photo that there were over a thousand people there.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, we have over a thousand and we have 2 to
12 3.000. I'm just trying to find out how many members there approximately
13 were and what your source of knowledge is. When you mention 2 to 3.000,
14 what was the source of your knowledge?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The source of my knowledge were the
16 local communes with a predominant Serb population such as Raspotocje,
17 Drivusa, Perin Han, and Mutnica. Those people were members of the SDS.
18 In town there were not as many members of the SDS; I'm talking about the
19 centre of town. And if you take into account the number of the population
20 of those local communes, if I do the maths I can tell you that there were
21 about 3.000 SDS members.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you're explaining to me how the membership
23 was spread over the town and some villages. But how would you know that
24 in town there would be less SDS members and in the villages there would be
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because only Muslims lived in town.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But were all Serbs SDS members?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
4 JUDGE ORIE: How would you know the number of SDS members? Were
5 they registered somewhere, either in the villages or in the town? I mean
6 if you say "they were not all members," how would you know how many of
7 them were members?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was an admission sheet where
9 one was supposed to fill out his name and surname, identification number,
10 date of birth, place of birth, father's name, and the date when this
11 person joined the party or movement, as it was then; and then that went to
12 the headquarters in Sarajevo. Judging by the number of IDs that we got as
13 members of the SDS -- well, every ID had its own number.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So membership was registered, was processed through
15 Zenica to Sarajevo, and IDs being sent back. And that's the source of
16 your knowledge of some 2 to 3.000 members of the SDS in Zenica? Is that a
17 correct understanding?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
20 We will adjourn until 10 minutes -- 5 minutes past 4.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber intended to finalise its own discussions
25 on the procedural matters during this break. We couldn't find the time,
1 however, so that is postponed most likely until after the next break.
2 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to cross-examine Mrs. Hrvacanin?
3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. In terms of the finalisation of
4 the procedural matters, perhaps I -- I think I understood them to include
5 issues related to the time limits of 65 ter summaries. If not, I could
6 raise that now if they are intended to be raised after the next break,
7 then, of course --
8 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, we'd prefer you to do that after
9 the next break or even tomorrow -- no, we're not sitting tomorrow, I
10 think. But at the earliest occasion. We understood that the Prosecution
11 had quite some concerns about the timing of providing 65 ter summaries,
12 and that's not unnoticed.
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, can I say that -- perhaps this is what
14 we have in mind now Your Honour's reference to tomorrow. We would have a
15 preference if it -- raised today, simply because I'm going to be here
16 today and I feel I should deal with this matter --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Preferably, yes. At the same time the Judges
18 need some time to discuss these kind of matters also to form its own
19 preliminary opinion, just perhaps looking at what happened to be certain
20 about what the facts are at this moment before we hear the parties because
21 we could ask specific questions better if we are prepared as well.
22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may -- I entirely understand that.
23 Your Honour --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We will try to see whether we could deal with
25 it today. If not, we'll see.
1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could it be this way, if it's not
2 inconvenient for Your Honour. If it's not possible to be dealt with
3 today, could it be dealt with on Friday?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing will change this week, so --
5 MR. STEWART: I feel it's my responsibility to deal with it --
6 JUDGE ORIE: If we can't deal with it today you would prefer to
7 deal with it yourself and then preferably on Friday?
8 MR. STEWART: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record.
10 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much.
11 MR. TIEGER: I would simply indicate that Mr. Stewart and I have
12 had a preliminary opportunity to discuss generally the nature of the
13 Prosecution's concerned and its potential impact on the schedule. I
14 simply indicate that --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, if Mr. Stewart could take away your
16 concerns or at least diminish them to such a level that you don't have to
17 bother the Chamber with it any more, then, of course, that would be
18 preferred. But --
19 MR. TIEGER: I wish that was the case. I was simply --
20 MR. STEWART: I try not to aggravate them, Your Honour, that's
21 probably my ambition some of the time.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the level of ambition is not something --
23 MR. STEWART: I'm doing what I can, Your Honour. At least we're
24 talking to each other about it and that's --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and you're still smiling.
1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I simply wanted to indicate to
2 Mr. Stewart, that those concerns were going to be raised.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The other matter, by the way, would be the pending
4 admission of exhibits. There are lots of them, some waiting for
5 translation. We would like to categorise them, briefly see what we have,
6 and to make arrangements for solution of this problem so that we -- they
7 would not be pending forever. Also because the Chamber can't proceed if
8 we don't have translations, if we do not know what is in evidence,
9 because, as you'll understood, some digestion of the evidence takes place
10 outside of this courtroom.
11 Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort Mrs. Hrvacanin.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hrvacanin, you'll now be cross-examined by
14 Mr. Tieger, who is counsel for the Prosecution.
15 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.
16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
17 WITNESS: SLOBODANKA HRVACANIN [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Tieger:
20 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Hrvacanin.
21 A. [No interpretation]
22 Q. You mentioned, and I believe that's found at page 35 of the
23 LiveNote of the testimony, that's for the benefit of Defence counsel and
24 the Court, that you thought you were in Sarajevo on the 19th, 20th, and
25 21st of December in connection with the Assembly session you discussed and
1 the meeting that took place in the Holiday Inn that you mentioned
3 And I wanted first to ask you whether you were indicating that you
4 were there on all three days or the 19th, 20th, or 21st. Can you tell us
5 what that reference was to, what specific dates you were referring to?
6 A. I was in Sarajevo for three days. I was there on the 19th, the
7 20th, and the 21st.
8 Q. And did you customarily arrive in Sarajevo or wherever the site of
9 an Assembly session was a day or two in advance of that session?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Tieger, could you please speak closer to the
11 microphone, because we can't hear you. Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think the session was on the
13 19th -- I beg your pardon, on the 20th. And I came a daily earlier
14 because I had things to do at the dental faculty of the university of
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. You also explained to the Court that you did not know about any
18 similar-size meeting that took place in December of 1991 and did not
19 believe that could have been such a meeting. That was at page 34 -- 44 of
20 the LiveNote, I believe.
21 A. Yes, that's what I'm saying now, too.
22 Q. So as far as you're concerned, there was no meeting other than the
23 Assembly session and the spontaneous meeting you testified about of
24 Bosnian Serb officials scheduled for the 19th, 20th, or 21st of December?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. And by the same token, if there was one that had been scheduled,
2 you don't know anything about that?
3 A. I should know if one had been planned, but I don't know anything
4 about a planned meeting.
5 Q. Now, this Court has had the opportunity to receive the audio and
6 transcript of a telephone conversation involving Dr. Karadzic on the 19th
7 of December, 1991, in which Dr. Karadzic said, and if --
8 MR. TIEGER: This is, Your Honour, P67 intercept, tab 21. I don't
9 know if it's part of the bundle, but it can be distributed now or later as
10 Court wishes or as counsel wishes. As I say it is in evidence at P67
11 intercept, tab 21.
12 Q. On that occasion, Mrs. Hrvacanin, Dr. Karadzic said: "They can go
13 fuck themselves. I'll introduce this Friday. I'll introduce a
14 second-degree state of emergency, and I'll teach everyone who fucks around
15 a fucking lesson."
16 And Mr. Novakovic on the other end said: "Is that so?"
17 Dr. Karadzic said: "Yes, yes, they were here from this region and
18 they'll let you know who needs to come. It's our Assembly session here on
20 For your benefit, Mrs. Hrvacanin, having checked the calendar for
21 1991, I can tell you the 21st of December was a Saturday, the 20th was a
23 Then Dr. Karadzic continued in the conversation at a slightly
24 later point after saying, as Mr. Novakovic said: "So we'll be here on
25 Saturday. Is that right?"
1 And Dr. Karadzic said: "On Saturday -- and on Friday all these
2 people of yours need to come. You have it there about how -- who needs to
3 come and so" -- and Mr. Novakovic asks: "Uh-huh, all right, all right.
4 What does this second degree imply?"
5 Dr. Karadzic says: "Well, you'll see."
6 I take it from you've told us earlier then, you don't know
7 anything about any meeting on Friday or on the day before the scheduled
8 Assembly session during which Dr. Karadzic would introduce this state of
10 A. That is correct, that I didn't know anything about this. But by
11 your leave, Your Honours, there is something strange about this.
12 Dr. Karadzic does not swear at all when he speaks, whereas many swear
13 words were used in this passage. I don't want to express any doubts or
14 suspicions, but perhaps the interpreters have misinterpreted this because
15 this is very bad behaviour, all this swearing.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hrvacanin, I fully agree with you that swearing
19 is not what one would expect from civilised persons, but the Chamber is in
20 a position, in view of the many intercepts we have listened to, to form
21 its opinion on whether swearing of -- by the person identified in these
22 telephone conversations as Mr. Karadzic, whether that is exceptional or
24 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. In addition, Mrs. Hrvacanin, the diary kept by Dr. Karadzic, chef
2 de cabinet, reflects a notation by what appears to be a meeting of the
3 Main Board at 1600 on December 20th, 1991, and, again, which is Friday.
4 There are two notations on that date. In the calendar, 1600 meeting of
5 Main Board, and 1600 Main Board on the page below.
6 MR. TIEGER: That is, for the Court's benefit, P893, I think tab
7 2 -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, that's incorrect. It is P65 Treanor 5, tab
8 65, and P529, Hanson tab 374.
9 Q. Again, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I take it from what you've told us earlier
10 that you don't know anything about this reference to a Main Board
11 gathering at 1600 on December 20th, 1991, the day before the Assembly
12 session was held?
13 A. The Assembly. I don't know anything about this.
14 Q. Now, yesterday you were shown the document that is -- has been
15 called Variant A and B, the instructions of December 1991 and indicated
16 you had never seen that. When you were in -- well, in Sarajevo the 19th,
17 20th, and 21st, did Dr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik issue anything requiring
19 A. As far as I can remember - and that's what I said yesterday - no.
20 Neither Dr. Karadzic nor Mr. Krajisnik were distributing any kind of
21 material at that session. Now, whether somebody else was, I really don't
23 MR. TIEGER: Now directing the Court's attention to P529 Hanson
24 tab 383.
25 Q. So, Mrs. Hrvacanin, when Dr. Karadzic said to Mr. Krajisnik in a
1 telephone conversation of 21 December 1991: "You know what, who will
2 implement what we issued last night?" You don't have any idea what he's
3 referring to, do you, according to you?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Now, you told the Court that you wanted to attend the session that
6 took place, the Assembly session that took place in late December because
7 there were some items on the agenda that you felt were important. And you
8 said: "What the coat of arms would be and what the anthem would be in the
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were those items or issues important enough to you so that you
12 spoke at the Assembly about them?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. We'll turn to that in a moment, but I wanted first to discuss with
15 you the reason you gave for the proposal to have a spontaneous meeting
16 after the Assembly ended at approximately 12.00, as you told us. And I
17 believe you explained that the delegates wanted to discuss the memorandum
18 regarding independence and didn't want to do so in the blue hall for fear
19 of being overheard. I think you in fact mentioned that Serbs had loud
20 voices. Is that essentially correct?
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. So I take it then that there was a reluctance to discuss it before
23 the group had adjourned to the Holiday Inn, and the group members, the
24 Assembly members, refrained from doing so until they had safely gathered
25 at the Holiday Inn for the spontaneous meeting. Is that essentially
2 A. Yes, you're right.
3 Q. Apart from the issues of emblems and anthems, do you recall what
4 was discussed at the Assembly session that took place, according to you,
5 on or about December 20th, 1991?
6 A. I think that most of it focussed on the coat of arms and the
7 anthem. And I also think that independent MPs joined the Serb Assembly,
8 but please do allow for the possibility that I do not remember everything.
9 Q. I do indeed, ma'am. Well, I'm sure it won't surprise you to learn
10 that records were kept of the Assembly sessions, and I've had an
11 opportunity to look at the record of the Assembly session that was held on
12 December 21st, Saturday, 1991. And the first item on the agenda,
13 Mrs. Hrvacanin, was in fact the declaration on the guidelines for
14 recognition of new states by the council of ministers of the European
15 Community. And three speakers spoke about that right away: First,
16 Mr. Buha at page 3. He complained about this declaration by the European
17 community, and in doing so referred to the illegal memorandum and platform
18 adopted against the will of the Serbian people.
19 Then Mr. Koljevic spoke. He referred to a text that was submitted
20 to the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
21 which stated flatly: Opposition to Bosnia and Herzegovina submitting an
22 application for independence to the European Community.
23 And then Mr. Simovic spoke, and he indicated that the position of
24 the Bosnian Serb authorities was expressed in a statement entitled "Black
25 Friday for Bosnia and Herzegovina." And again he made the position of the
1 Bosnian Serb authorities on the memorandum for independence and on the
2 movement towards independence, quite clear, describing it as it was
3 described in the statement as a flagrant violation of the constitution.
4 And then the Assembly prepared, in fact, a letter to Lord Carrington
5 referring to the "brutal violation of the constitutional system by the
6 adoption of the Bosnian authorities of the memorandum and the subsequent
7 request for recognition."
8 Now, does that at all refresh your recollection that the position
9 of the Bosnian Serb authorities and all the delegates there was quite
10 explicit and quite clear, and there was no -- there was no need for a
11 subsequent meeting to thrash out in any way or to identify secretly in any
12 way the position regarding the memorandum?
13 A. I do recall what you just said, Mr. Prosecutor. I have no reason
14 to doubt it. I believe that all of it is true, but my memory doesn't
15 serve me very well now. I know for sure that it was said that we should
16 go to the Holiday Inn and have lunch there and, if necessary, we'll talk
17 over lunch. I stand by the statement I made yesterday.
18 Q. Well, perhaps in light of what I've just read to you, it wasn't
19 necessary to discuss the position on the memorandum but maybe some other
20 matters. So let me ask you first whether you recall any discussion at the
21 Assembly session about what the Bosnian Serbs would do in response to
22 their opposition to the memorandum and to the effort by the Bosnian
23 government to seek independence?
24 A. No, I do not recall that.
25 Q. Well, if I may, let me indicate a few speakers at that session and
1 what they said. First of all, do you recall anyone saying: "Unless the
2 Muslims and Croats change their minds, this will be known as the beginning
3 of the rebellion against the tyrants"?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Mr. Dukic said that at page 19 of the English transcript.
6 Do you recall anyone saying that: "It is a lie that it is
7 possible to live together"?
8 A. No.
9 Q. That was Mr. -- Dr. Koljevic of page 44 of the English transcript.
10 Do you recall anyone saying that: "The aim should be as much
11 separation as possible"?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Dr. Karadzic at page 41.
14 What about someone saying: "Each party should take what is
15 theirs, and for Serbs that means the areas where they are a minority
16 because of World War II or because of colonisation or because people move
17 to Serbia"?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Mr. Zekic at page 18.
20 A. The deputy who was killed, Mr. Zekic?
21 Q. That's correct. Do you recall anyone saying that: "There will be
22 new borders"?
23 A. As far as I know, no.
24 Q. That was Mr. Miskjen [phoen].
25 Mrs. Hrvacanin, do you recall someone saying that: "If the
1 European community goes ahead with the threat to recognise Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina as independent state, there will be another Serb uprising and
3 massive bloodshed in which some nations that have been subsequently
4 created will disappear"?
5 A. No.
6 Q. That was Dr. Vukic who said that, and his reference to "nations
7 that had been subsequently created," you understand as a reference, I
8 presume, to the fact that the Muslims did not become a "narod," a nation
9 until 1974?
10 A. No. They were a narod, a people, but they were recognised as a
11 nation in 1974, but they were there as a people, yes.
12 Q. Thank you for that clarification. But that's how you understand
13 that reference, I take it. Is that right? I see you nodding your
14 head "yes." Thank you.
15 And do you recall anyone saying that: "The alternative to
16 acceptance of the Serb proposals is civil war" and that that "civil war
17 would involve massive deaths and destruction and massive population
18 movements and population homogenisation"? Do you recall that,
19 Mrs. Hrvacanin?
20 A. No.
21 Q. That was Dr. Karadzic at page 40. In any event, after discussing
22 all of this at the Assembly session, according to you the assembled
23 representatives decided that there was a need for some more secure place
24 to continue the discussion. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Well, after discussing the opposition to the memorandum and after
2 discussing the response and proposed response to the memorandum and the
3 attempt by the Bosnian authorities to seek sovereignty and independence,
4 was there anything left for the gathered representatives to discuss, other
5 than how to prepare to do these things, that is to create new borders, to
6 homogenise the population, and to make the Muslims disappear, as Dr. Vukic
7 had said and as Dr. Karadzic referred to?
8 A. It's a very ugly thing even to hear something like that, that
9 somebody should disappear. I think that the aspiration of the Serb people
10 was to live in Yugoslavia. That was a recognised state of all nations,
11 Muslims, Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins, all of those who lived there. I
12 never heard of any such idea or any such story, that the Serbs should make
13 a border of their own, except that Bosnia and Herzegovina should be within
14 the framework of Yugoslavia. That is why the Serbs asked for the
15 plebiscite, not like the referendum of the Muslims and the Croats to
16 recognise independence. I think that that is the only example of
17 something like this happening through a referendum, so I'm not aware of
18 this, Mr. Prosecutor.
19 Q. By the way, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I also recall that you said during
20 your testimony when you were being questioned by Mr. Stewart that
21 Dr. Karadzic was not at the Assembly session in -- that you described, in
22 December of 1991?
23 A. Yes, that is correct that I said that. I don't remember that he
24 was there, but then you say he was there. I don't remember though.
25 Q. Well, in fact Dr. Karadzic spoke four times at some length from
1 pages 19 to 21, from pages 37 to 42, again at page 48 and 49 of an English
2 transcription of the session which was a total of 50 pages.
3 Let me ask you some more questions, if I may, about what you've
4 told us about that session. First of all, you said that the Assembly
5 meeting you attended on December 19th, 20th, or 21st, which I think you
6 identified today as being on the 20th, went from around 10.00 onwards.
7 That's at page 37 of the LiveNote. I'm actually quoting: "From around
8 10.00 onwards."
9 Is that right?
10 A. I think that's right. I think that's what I said. It's been 13
11 years. Allow for the possibility that I may not remember some things.
12 Q. And you said that it: "Took place in the so-called blue hall of
13 the municipality building." Correct?
14 A. The Assembly, yes. I think that is what it was called because the
15 chairs were blue, that the general decor was in blue hues, so I think
16 that's the name of the room, yes.
17 Q. In fact, Mrs. Hrvacanin, the records of the Assembly session held
18 on December 21st, 1991, reflect that it did not begin at 10.00 but it
19 began at shortly after noon, at about 12.16, and then continued on into
20 the afternoon. And the records further reveal that it was not held in the
21 blue hall or blue room, but in the Holiday Inn hotel. And the record
22 further indicates, Mrs. Hrvacanin, that anthems and coats of arms or
23 emblems were neither on the agenda of the meeting 21 December nor
24 discussed. You're welcome to see the records of that, but if you accept
25 that, we can move forward.
1 A. I have no reason not to believe you, but I don't know of Assembly
2 meetings being held at all at the Holiday Inn.
3 Q. Well, in fact, Mrs. Hrvacanin there was an Assembly meeting that
4 was held at the Holiday Inn, at least one that I'm about to describe --
5 oh, I'm sorry, pardon me. Let me rephrase that.
6 I actually want to turn your attention to a meeting at which,
7 contrary to the meeting of 21 December, anthems and coats of arms were in
8 fact discussed, as you described, and at which you spoke about anthems and
9 coats of arms. And further --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- which began around 10.00, as you describe about the meeting,
12 and which was held in the blue hall, as you described. But,
13 Mrs. Hrvacanin, that was not the meeting of 21 December, not the Assembly
14 session of 21 December, 1991; that was the Assembly session held on 15
15 February 1992, the seventh session of the Assembly.
16 So, Mrs. Hrvacanin, in light of all that, do you agree that the
17 meeting -- the Assembly session you were talking about was not held in
18 December, December 20th or December 21st, as the record in fact indicates,
19 but was held in mid-February 1992?
20 A. Yes. Now that you've said it in this hall, in this room, yes.
21 Q. And any spontaneous meeting that took place after the session that
22 you've described at which no documents were distributed would have taken
23 place in the afternoon of February 15th, 1992? That follows logically, I
24 take it?
25 A. I don't remember.
1 Q. As long as we're on the subject of Assembly sessions, perhaps this
2 is a good opportunity to ask you a few questions about the Assembly
3 session on the 12th of May, 1992, in Banja Luka. That's the session that
4 you were asked about earlier this afternoon. And I think you told the
5 Court that what you remembered about that particular Assembly session was
6 that Dr. Karadzic became a member of the Presidency?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And Mr. Stewart asked you a few questions about the six strategic
9 objectives or goals, and you said that although there was -- essentially,
10 although there was talk about it in the media, that you didn't know
11 anything about it and had never heard anything directly about the six
12 strategic objectives or goals?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then he subsequently asked some questions about goals
15 discussed at the Assembly session of 12 May 1992, and again you said the
16 only thing that happened was the election of Dr. Karadzic. And you
17 said: "There were no other goals mentioned, as far as I know."
18 A. I attended those sessions, but I wasn't there all the time. I
19 would sometimes leave the room. However, this doesn't justify me not
20 knowing what happened at those sessions. Still, I can tell you what I
21 really remember and what I told you is the truth. And if I don't remember
22 something, then obviously I can't talk about it.
23 Q. So are you now saying that you're not sure what was discussed at
24 that session or that you're sure that nothing significant, other than
25 Dr. Karadzic's becoming a member of the Presidency, happened at that
1 session and particularly no discussion of strategic goals?
2 A. What you said is certain. Mr. Karadzic was appointed president.
3 First he became a member of the Presidency and then president. This was
4 very important because he was also the leader of the party. As for the
5 strategic goals, I don't know anything about those. If this -- whether
6 this was important, whether this was at all discussed, I don't know. And
7 I'm telling you the truth.
8 Q. Well, as you pointed out, it certainly happens that people step
9 away from a meeting for a short time for a bathroom break or for a cup of
10 coffee, and I guess everyone understands that. But at this particular
11 meeting, Mrs. Hrvacanin, the strategic goals were discussed or mentioned,
12 I believe, a total of ten times. And let me describe those quickly for
13 you. First of all, Dr. Karadzic described the six strategic objectives.
14 That's found at pages 13 and 14 of the English translation.
15 Then Mr. Kerovic at page 17 said: "I would only like to add in
16 relation to the strategic goals presented by Dr. Karadzic," and then
18 Then Mr. Milosevic referred to the second strategic goal and
19 discussed the work that should be done on that, page 18.
20 And then Mr. Djuric began by says: "Mr. President, fellow
21 deputies, I would like to say a word on these strategic goals."
22 Then Mr. Vjestica said: "I would like to accept all the goals
23 that have been proposed."
24 Then Mr. Novakovic said --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I ask you also, if you have it available,
1 the pages so that the Judges can form an opinion whether it was ten times
2 referred to in five or ten pages, or more spread over the whole meeting.
3 MR. TIEGER: Of course. I don't know where I left off. Mr. --
4 JUDGE ORIE: You stopped with Mr. Djuric. That's the first time
5 when you didn't give a page.
6 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Djuric at page 20, Mr. Vjestica at page 24, then
7 Mr. Novakovic at page 25 and 26 discussed the work that had been done with
8 maps he said: "Not because the Serbs like to draw maps, although it is
9 true that they do, but because our strategic goals, or rather concrete
10 tasks for all the deputies here and all the people's tribunes, military
11 leaders and others on the ground should be derived from such an
13 Then Mr. Ostojic at page 31 said -- it was an appeal to start
14 working and said: "The third thing as far as realisation of strategic
15 goals is concerned." And then he talked about a further development of
16 the goals and variations on the goals and sub-goals. Mr. Mijatovic at
17 pages 35 through 36 said: "I would like to say the following concerning
18 the realisation of all the six strategic goals that are the duty for all
19 of us of the Serbian republic."
20 Then General Mladic at page 36 said: "To achieve a goal, you need
21 forces. I have read and mulled over for a long time and discussed within
22 the most select circle of comrades who we convened the strategic goals
23 that are of substance."
24 Then Mr. Krajisnik at page 49 said: "Strategic goals, please, I
25 would like to offer an explanation." And he began discussing the corridor
1 mentioned between Krajina and Semberija. "The size of the corridor
2 depends on you," he said. And then he continued as he went on: "As for
3 the goals, I would just like to offer an explanation since I have also
4 taken part in adopting these goals."
5 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, in light of all that, can we accept that your
6 failure to recall any reference to the strategic goals at that session is
7 not a function of stepping out briefly for a cup of coffee or to the
8 bathroom, but for some other reason such as a failure of memory or
9 blocking it out or whatever reason you may offer?
10 A. The reason must be that I have suppressed a lot of things that
11 happened to me in Zenica and later on. I don't know if the strategic goal
12 was to separate the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina or the people in it
13 from the Serbs. At least this is what I learned from the media. The
14 corridor had not existed. You could see in my CV that I was born in
15 Belgrade. I couldn't go to Belgrade because there was no corridor.
16 Whether this corridor could have been created in one way or another, I
17 can't tell you because I'm not an expert. But I know for a fact that
18 General Mladic attended that session and all the gentlemen that you have
19 mentioned here.
20 Q. Well --
21 A. But I didn't find that important, and that is why I didn't pay too
22 much attention, I didn't listen carefully.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, could we ask the witness to explain the
24 first line of her previous answer.
25 You said: "The reason must be" - when you were asked about your
1 failure of memory - "that I have suppressed a lot of things that happened
2 to me in Zenica and later on."
3 That's not entirely clear to the Chamber. Could you explain that.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I experienced a lot of trauma in
5 Zenica and later on as well. I underwent treatment. I had nocturnal
6 urination and various kinds of stresses, and that's why I'm saying that I
7 don't want to remember some things. I was 45 at the time - now I'm 60 -
8 and I still suffer consequences. Nothing else that I can add to that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you say "I underwent treatment," could you tell us
10 something about the type of treatment. Could be -- and if you would feel
11 uncomfortable in telling these private matters, very private matters, in
12 open session, then we could consider, if you would ask us to do so, to go
13 into private session for a moment and to hear from you. It could be -- I
14 mean medical treatment, could be by someone -- there are a lot of
15 disciplines in medicine. So I'm not inviting you, but if you prefer to do
16 that please let us know. And could you please answer my question on what
17 type of treatment you underwent?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We don't need to go into private
19 session for this. I still depend on drugs. I suffer from cardiac and
20 vascular diseases. I suffer from hypertension. I also have angina
21 pectoris. I have chronical pancreas disease. Those are the illnesses
22 that are aggravated by certain situations. I still take a lot of
23 medicines. I am under a constant medical supervision, and the illness
24 that I suffer from is progressing. And it got worse -- it got worse
25 during the period when I was stressed out in Zenica.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You mentioned quite some medical problems. Did the
2 treatment -- because at the very end you say: "The illness I suffer from
3 is progressing." You mentioned quite a number of illnesses. Were you
4 treated by -- or did you consult psychiatrists and psychologists as well
5 in this respect?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there's no need for that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, I just wanted to be sure. And do you take
8 any tranquillisers or psychopharmica?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, I noticed in your answer that you said: "I don't
13 know whether -- I don't know if the strategic goal was to separate the
14 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina or the people in it from the Serbs."
15 Your 65 ter summary indicates that you were friendly with and
16 spoke frequently, among other people, Vojo Kupresanin. Do I understand
17 that correctly?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you knew Mr. Kupresanin to be someone who was a regional
20 leader and had the opportunity to interact on a reasonably regular basis
21 with republic-level leaders. Is that basically correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Did you have any doubt that Mr. Kupresanin was someone who
24 understood the strategic goals?
25 A. I'm not sure about that.
1 Q. He would have been somebody you would have expected to be aware of
2 them and understand them, however; isn't he?
3 A. Mr. Kupresanin is a high school graduate. He is a teacher by
5 Q. But it's not very difficult, I think, to understand the difference
6 between separating a country and separating the people in the country from
7 the other people in the country; right? That's pretty fundamental. You
8 don't need to go to college to understand the difference, do you?
9 A. Well, yes, but this is a very lofty question that you ask me. If
10 the desire was for us to live in Yugoslavia, then I really don't know who
11 we were supposed to separate from. We wanted the Muslims and the Croats
12 to continue living with us in Yugoslavia, like they still do today. In
13 Belgrade there's about 200.000 Muslims, and I believe that they have a
14 good life there.
15 Q. Well, with respect, Mrs. Hrvacanin, it's not a very lofty question
16 at all. I'm afraid it's a very dirty and gritty question, the issue of
17 separating people. You had a chance to hear the references made at the 21
18 December 1991 Assembly session, references which I think you indicated to
19 us were among those you tried to express. Those were references to the
20 impossibility of living together and a reference to the need to separate
21 as much as possible and a reference to population homogenisation. I want
22 you to keep those in mind as I read to you something that your friend,
23 Vojo Kupresanin, said at the 37th session of the Bosnian Assembly on
24 January 10, 1994, when you consider whether the strategic goal was to
25 separate the country or to separate the people -- separate the people in
1 the country from the Serbs.
2 Mr. Kupresanin said: "What I would really like to see here is a
3 firm attitude that the Muslims and the Croats will not be allowed to
4 return to the areas under our rule. Accordingly, we should not return to
5 the areas that will be under Croatian rule. I think we should be decisive
6 about this."
7 Then he goes on during that quote: "I do not care if the Muslims
8 will live at all, where they will live, whether they will have a country
9 or not, I'm not interested in that. The only thing I am interested in is
10 my people and the territory where my people live. Therefore, any thought
11 about having 500 or more Muslims within our future country is out of the
13 Now, I'm going to indicate to you there are many other Assembly
14 session references to either separation, to expulsions, to killings. But
15 in light of what you've already heard in Court today, including what
16 you've heard Vojo Kupresanin saying, is there any doubt, Mrs. Hrvacanin,
17 that the strategic goal was about separating the Muslims and Croat people,
18 separating people, from the Serbs, not dividing the country in the
20 A. The way I feel it, I agree with you that this is really dirty.
21 But such an idea never crossed my mind. I would never separate anybody,
22 200.000 or 250.000 Serbs were expelled from Central Bosnia and they
23 currently reside on different continents in various countries. I was also
24 expelled. I really wouldn't know how I could wish for somebody to be
25 expelled or for me to expel somebody. Maybe I can't be a good judge of
1 Mr. Kupresanin's words, but nobody with a healthy mind can accept that.
2 Q. Well, even before the conflict began there were people who were
3 suggesting population transfers and population exchanges, weren't there?
4 For example, this Court has received evidence that Dr. Koljevic went to
5 see Mr. Tudjman and spoke about a homogenisation and population transfers
6 and resettlement of peoples.
7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that -- what -- just -- question --
8 what is the question there? The first sentence was a question. Then
9 there was an example. What exactly is the witness being invited to
11 MR. TIEGER: "Even before the conflict began, there were people
12 suggesting population transfers and population exchanges."
13 Q. Isn't that right?
14 A. I don't know. I don't know that. I was not a member of the BH
15 Presidency. I never had an occasion to talk to President Tudjman. I only
16 saw him on TV.
17 Q. Well, perhaps that was a -- not a helpful example. I certainly
18 wasn't -- I didn't mean for you to limit your response to Dr. Koljevic's
19 discussion with Mr. Tudjman. More generally I wanted to know if you were
20 aware that there were people - and specifically there were Bosnian Serbs -
21 who were suggesting population transfers. Muslims leave Serb areas, Serbs
22 leave Muslim areas.
23 A. I was never aware of anybody doing a thing like that or that
24 anybody was capable of doing something like that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: May I take the opportunity -- the question was not
1 whether people did it, but the question was that people suggested this,
2 even before the conflict began, to suggest such population transfers, not
3 that they did put them into effect. Did you ever hear about that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We never discussed it at the Main
6 JUDGE ORIE: My question was not whether you discussed it at the
7 Main Board. My question was whether you heard about it.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, I want to direct your attention and the Court's
12 attention to document found at tab 3 of the materials and which will be
13 presented to you shortly. That's an article from Glas dated 19 January,
14 1992. I think you're familiar with this in particular, Mrs. Hrvacanin,
15 because yesterday you mentioned articles that were published that you
16 considered mocked and ridiculed you and that, in part, precipitated your
17 departure from Zenica. And this article in Glas, in part, refers to that.
18 You recall this article?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, as I understand the article, Glas gave you an opportunity to
21 respond to the two articles that had been published in Nasa Rijec earlier
22 in the year. And among others, you mentioned that Nasa Rijec and Radio
23 Zenica were joint-stock companies and it clearly showed who was in
24 possession of the stock, and presumably therefore the motivation for
25 publishing the articles about you. Is that basically right? That it gave
1 you to chance to talk about what those publications were about and to
2 respond to the points that they had made against you?
3 A. Lliljana Labovic is a journalist affiliated with Nasa -- I
4 apologise, Glas Srpski from Banja Luka. She stayed in Zenica, and she was
5 a theatre critic. She wrote an article about me.
6 Q. And in part the article was intended to give you an opportunity to
7 respond publicly to the mocking articles that had been published earlier
8 by Nasa Rijec?
9 A. This was not published in Zenica; this was published in Banja
10 Luka. And the journalist who was from Banja Luka, she came to Zenica.
11 She attempted to make an interview with me. And if the Court will allow
12 me, I will have to read to see what the article is about, and if you, sir,
13 also allow me to read it.
14 Q. Of course I will give you that opportunity. I just wanted to
15 establish that you remember the article, you remember talking Ljiljana
16 Labovic, and you remember generally what was happening at the time.
17 A. I remember that I talked to her. I'm still in contact with her.
18 She's the director of a gallery now.
19 Q. Why don't you take a --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger, the witness asked for some time to
21 read it. I don't know whether you could move on so that during the next
22 break we give an opportunity to Mrs. Hrvacanin to read it or whether you
23 have any follow-up questions that we should give her time now.
24 MR. TIEGER: Well, first of all, I probably should have the --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I -- I didn't want to interrupt the
1 answer of the witness. Mr. Registrar, that would be?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 3 would be P1017 and the English translation
3 would be P1017.1.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I leave it up to you, Mr. Tieger, to see
5 whether you would give ample opportunity to the witness during the break.
6 MR. TIEGER: I'm happy to give that a try, Your Honour, and if I
7 get to a point where it seems too awkward to continue, we're not that far
8 from the break and we can make a break then.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, I know you're trying to use your time well by
12 reading the article, but the Court wants to give you an opportunity to do
13 that with less haste, and so we'll try and direct our attention next to
14 that article after the break and after you've had a chance to see it.
15 A. Thank you.
16 Q. You were asked yesterday whether you or other members of the SDS
17 in Zenica ever established a Serbian Assembly, and you indicated that the
18 answer was no.
19 A. I don't know about that, and that is what I still assert, that I
20 was not aware of a Serb Assembly being founded in Zenica. When I left
21 Zenica on the 28th of February, 1992, while the telephones were still
22 operating, I was still in contact with Mr. Glogovac, who was my deputy.
23 As far as I know, no such thing was established while I was in contact
24 with him.
25 Q. I take it you would agree that if Serbs from Zenica were going to
1 move as a result of the ethnic division of Bosnia, there wouldn't be much
2 point in establishing a Serbian Assembly in Zenica?
3 A. What you're saying is correct, but the Serbs did not intend to
4 leave. They were arrested. They were taken to camps and expelled. So I
5 can't say that they wanted to leave Zenica. I didn't want to leave
6 either. My husband didn't want to leave either. I said that yesterday.
7 To this day, he doesn't have a pension. He simply cannot get one in
9 Q. Well, in posing that question to you, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I was
10 essentially repeating a question that you yourself had raised at the
11 Assembly session on December 11th, early December, the third session of
12 the Bosnian Serb Assembly in 1991 when there was a discussion about the
13 possibility of creating Serbian Assemblies or Municipal Assemblies of the
14 Serbian people.
15 You took the floor and mentioned that you live in a region of
16 Central Bosnia where the Serbs are in a minority and asked: "What I want
17 to say is that I would like to know how much we would win or lose by
18 establishing such a Serb Assembly. For, it is true that we are being
20 Then you said: "If we are to move, then all this discussion is
21 pointless. But if we will remain living there, I would like to suggest
22 that a commission draw up an appropriate model of action for Central
23 Bosnia showing the pros and cons."
24 So at least as of December 11th, Mrs. Hrvacanin, you were aware
25 that the model for the division of -- or at least the Bosnian Serb model
1 for the division of Bosnia and Herzegovina might include having Serbs move
2 from Zenica?
3 A. It is correct that that's what I said at the Assembly. It is also
4 correct that it was the 11th of November [as interpreted], and by then I
5 had been mistreated a great deal and I was frightened. It's not that we
6 were planning some kind of organised departure from Zenica. People were
7 leaving the way they were leaving, through Croatian territory, when the
8 conflict started, and when it was possible to go that way. As far as I
9 can remember, the recommendation was to establish an Assembly, like a
10 parliamentary Assembly, with certain laws, of course, and some people who
11 would live there and work there without singling anyone out, Muslims,
12 Croats, or anybody else, especially not in Zenica. I've already said, I
13 said yesterday, that many different ethnic groups lived in Zenica,
14 Germans, Czechs, Poles, Jews.
15 Q. Well, my question, however, Mrs. Hrvacanin was focussed on the
16 comments you made on December 11th and the -- and your understanding of
17 the Bosnian Serb objectives at that time regarding the division of Bosnia
18 and Herzegovina. You testified yesterday about Mr. -- about
19 Dr. Karadzic's, let's say, lack of enthusiasm about establishing an SDS in
20 Zenica when you first met him in 1990.
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. The fact is that when the Bosnian Serb leadership identified
23 portions of Bosnia and Herzegovina that would not be claimed by the
24 Bosnian Serbs but would be essentially ceded to the Muslims, Zenica was
25 one of those places?
1 A. In Zenica the Muslim population is the majority population, and
2 throughout that territory at that -- but I'm not aware of any such
3 division, that someone would give anything to someone else.
4 Q. On October 12th, 1991, Dr. Karadzic had a telephone conversation
5 with a gentleman named Gojko Djogo. And this Court has it in evidence,
6 P64, P67 intercept, tab 16, also P153A. And Dr. Karadzic said, among
7 other things: Yes, to ... to ... to Ozren, that Doboj, to do anything.
8 He can -- he can have the power in half of Sarajevo, Zenica and half of
9 Tuzla, and that's it. Over. Gracanica and these little -- but he is --
10 they do not understand that there would be bloodshed and that the Muslim
11 people would be exterminated. The deprived Muslims who do not know where
12 he is leading, to what he is leading the Muslims would disappear.
13 Now, first of all, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I think is it clear from even
14 that limited excerpt that the "he" to who Dr. Karadzic is referring is
15 Alija Izetbegovic? "He can have this and he is leading the Muslims," and
16 so on?
17 A. I'm sorry. I did not quite understand. You were reading a text
18 and you said that Karadzic was saying all of that to some general called
19 Djogo? I've never heard of such a general, but of course it is possible
20 that I don't have to know about that. But the question is whether
21 Karadzic is saying all of that to Izetbegovic or have I misunderstood?
22 Q. I apologise for that. It wasn't a good -- in this conversation at
23 this point of the conversation, except for purposes of this discussion
24 that when Dr. Karadzic refers to "he" he's referring to Alija Izetbegovic.
25 And he says --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, before you continue, let's first identify
2 another matter of concern. You said "a general," but Mr. Tieger said, in
3 English "a gentleman" named Gojko Djogo. So he's not a general, he's a
4 male person.
5 Yes, please proceed, Mr. --
6 MR. TIEGER:
7 Q. And I believe that --
8 A. I'm sorry. It was a slip of the tongue.
9 Q. And if it's of any assistance, I believe Mr. Djogo was the head of
10 the society for Bosnian Serbs outside of Bosnia or something of that
11 nature. In any event, with the clarifications that have just been
12 provided, let me just repeat the part of the conversation that I wanted to
13 direct your attention to.
14 "He can have the power in half of Sarajevo, Zenica, in half of
15 Tuzla, and that's it."
16 Now, I'm going to read you a few more references to Zenica in
17 connection with the division of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The next one is
18 found in P67, intercept tab 31 and also P92. That's a conversation
19 between Mico Stanisic and Bruno Stojic. Mico Stanisic being the first
20 minister of the interior in Republika Srpska. Bruno Stojic being a former
21 colleague from the joint movement of Bosnia and Herzegovina --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I take it we find this under tab 34, as
23 we found the previously one under 33.
24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, I apologise for not directing the
25 Court's attention specifically to it.
1 Q. Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Stojic were talking about making a deal. And
2 Stanisic said: "Listen" -- "listen, Karadzic, too, wants a deal. Sit
3 down and work out a deal."
4 And then to continue the conversation Stanisic says: "We'll give
5 you all this that is here, Visoko, Vares, Kakanj."
6 And Stojic says: "Who are you to give us anything?"
7 And Stanisic says: "We'll give you also Zenica."
8 And Stojic says: "Let me tell you, man."
9 And Mico -- and then Stanisic says: "We'll give you Zenica, too,
11 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour, I wonder, could ask a
12 practical technical question to which there may be a simple answer.
13 The -- is the position that the interpreters have the B/C/S transcript so
14 that when Mr. Tieger reads out in English, they just the read what we
15 already have as the transcript of the original tape? Because otherwise --
16 well, I'll stop there. If the answer to that is "yes," then I don't need
17 to say anything else.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, have the interpreters been provided with
19 the bundles?
20 MR. TIEGER: Yes, they have, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And I then take it that the interpreters will use the
22 original. And if that's not correct, then I'd like to be informed. I'm
23 on the English channel at this moment.
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters from the other booths say that
25 they do not have exact references. They have big bundles of material, but
1 they do not have exact references to the passages that are being read out.
2 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour --
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's another reason, Mr. Tieger, to give us the
4 references. I think at this moment we are on tab 34, but I have not yet
5 identified exactly the page where we are. I noticed that where this
6 conversation is identified on the first page as a conversation between
7 Stanisic and Stojic, that it starts at least with other persons but slowly
8 gets into the Stanisic/Stojic.
9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour has the point. Because if Mr. Tieger
10 could -- as he's agreed to do, if Mr. Tieger could give us the tab number
11 in this bundle, and also the reference, it makes much more sense for the
12 interpreters to read from the original because otherwise the witness is
13 getting back a new translation having gone from B/C/S to English and back
14 to B/C/S, which makes no sense at all.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Every new element in the chain is another risk
16 for imposition.
17 MR. STEWART: It's far more satisfactory from the witness is given
18 the precise words that the people concerned were using.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, could you draw the attention of the
20 interpreters to the page, I see there are only ERN numbers at the top, the
21 page where we find the portion you just quoted.
22 MR. TIEGER: First of all, I'll identify the English for the
23 Court. In the English that's found at pages 14 and 15.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. TIEGER: So it's -- which makes it a little over halfway
1 through. And --
2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I ask, is there a further copy of
3 this bundle because it would be extremely helpful, indeed, if my case
4 manager were able to have his own bundle, otherwise it's very
6 JUDGE ORIE: It looks as if someone is trying to find a new bundle
7 for you. There's another copy.
8 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger, I think that you were at page --
10 last four digits 0121 where Zenica and then Banovina and -- I'm not quite
11 sure as a matter of fact. It might not be because I'm missing the
12 reference to 1939, unless that's written out rather than given in --
13 MR. TIEGER: It seems unlikely, actually, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm afraid that I made a mistake. No, I think
15 it should be -- at the middle of that page we find a reference to Visoko,
16 Vares, and Kakanj, which we find at the top of page 15, two further down
17 Zenica is mentioned. Two further down Zenica is mentioned again. And
18 then we come to the Banovina, which is the next. So I --
19 MR. TIEGER: I found it as well. You're quite right.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's at page 0121 for the interpreters.
21 Could you please read it again, Mr. Tieger, so that the witness,
22 who might have forgotten meanwhile, was asked to --
23 MR. TIEGER: Certainly, Your Honour.
24 Q. I'll begin with Mr. Stanisic who said: "Listen. Karadzic, too,
25 wants a deal to sit down and work out a deal."
1 Then about ten lines later or so Mr. Stanisic says: "We'll give
2 you all this that is here: Visoko, Vares, Kakanj."
3 Mr. Stojic says: "Who are you to give us anything?"
4 Mr. Stanisic: "We'll give you also Zenica."
5 Mr. Stojic: "Let me tell you, man" --
6 And Mr. Stanisic says: "We'll give you Zenica, too, fuck."
7 Finally I wanted to direct your attention, ma'am, to a portion of
8 the 16th Assembly that we discussed earlier. In fact, I had listed for
9 you the persons who referred to the strategic objectives. This is
10 Mr. Krajisnik again, and he says, and I believe the -- so as not to suffer
11 from the same problem, I'll need to refer to the tab which is --
12 MR. TIEGER: There are a separate bundle of meetings, and it's the
13 most obviously thick one.
14 MR. STEWART: Can I just inquire, honour, if it's -- I try not to
15 be overly fussy about this. Is Mr. Tieger -- is Mr. Tieger reading from
16 exactly the same document because there seems to be a "fuck" in the wrong
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was at the end of the line, where in the
19 translation, Mr. Tieger, I noticed that as well, where the English
20 say: "We'll give you fucking Zenica, too." You said, and I'm now
21 repeating just from memory. "We'll give you Zenica, too, fuck."
22 I don't know whether you're using a different version.
23 MR. TIEGER: Well, I --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Something perhaps --
25 MR. TIEGER: -- the ERN --
1 JUDGE ORIE: The last four digits is 0133.
2 MR. TIEGER: No, no, the --
3 JUDGE ORIE: The English translation.
4 MR. TIEGER: The ERN is precisely the same. So I am not --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
6 MR. TIEGER: -- exactly sure how that discrepancy occurred.
7 JUDGE ORIE: It might be that there was a bit more emphasis on
8 swearing today, as usually we do not pay that much attention to it.
9 Perhaps something to -- well, yes, could you finish your question now and
10 then after that we should have a break.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. The last reference I wanted to bring your attention to was
13 Mr. Krajisnik at the 16th Assembly where he said: "Therefore, if we want
14 to have a partition, Tuzla cannot end up as ours, although I do agree that
15 one part of Tuzla could. I agree that we can keep Tuzla, but then there
16 will be to partition. We cannot get Zenica."
17 So because we have to break I'm going to --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps, Mr. Tieger, we have in this big bundle,
19 although the different elements are numbered, the numbering does not
20 appear on the cover page. So we have to go through it very quickly. I
21 think, as a matter of fact, it is, from what I see now, under number --
22 after number 12 but without any number, one of the thick ones, and before
23 what is indicated as number 19.
24 But perhaps you'll sort that out a bit during the next break.
25 Mrs. Hrvacanin -- perhaps in order also for the interpreters to
1 follow. Perhaps you should re-start this portion after the break --
2 MR. TIEGER: That's fine.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- having identified clearly what you wanted to draw
4 attention to.
5 Mrs. Hrvacanin, a copy will be given to you of the interview, or
6 at least of the publication where you said you had spoken with this
7 journalist so that you can read it over the break and Mr. Tieger can put
8 any additional questions to you in respect of that publication.
9 We will have a break until 10 minutes past 6.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 WITNESS: SLOBODANKA HRVACANIN [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
21 MR. TIEGER: I think before we adjourned we wanted to repeat the
22 comment made by Mr. Krajisnik of the 16th session relevant to the issue
23 we're discussing now, but have the B/C/S transcript available to the
24 interpreters. I've already indicated during the break where that can be
25 found. But for the record --
1 JUDGE ORIE: And for the Judges.
2 MR. TIEGER: Of course. I think that was at the top of page 38 of
3 the B/C/S transcript, which is ERN 00847753. I hope I have that right and
4 I will read it slowly in the English.
5 Q. Again, that was regarding the --
6 JUDGE ORIE: In the English - because when I was referring to the
7 Judges, I had the English in mind - is on page --
8 MR. TIEGER: 49 or 50, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll find it.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. And again that comment related to position of Zenica in the -- a
12 division of -- the ethnic division of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the
13 comment was -- it appears after the comment about liking Mr. Ostojic's
14 maps most and everything on them is blue. But the comment is
15 this: "Therefore, if we want to have a partition, Tuzla cannot end up as
16 ours, although I do agree that one part of Tuzla could. I agree that we
17 can keep Tuzla, but then there will be no partition. We cannot get
19 And, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I directed your attention to those various
20 excerpts regarding Zenica in connection with my question about Zenica's
21 role according to the Bosnian Serb leadership or position, rather,
22 according to the Bosnian Serb leadership in the ethnic division of Bosnia
23 and Herzegovina. And I ask you again whether you understood that, as it
24 seems, you indicated in the December 11, 1991, Assembly that Zenica might
25 likely be ceded to the Muslim authorities and not claimed as a Bosnian
1 Serb territory in the ethnic division of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
2 A. From what you have said, Mr. Tieger, I understand that. But I
3 don't have any prior views of that, nor am I aware of any previous
4 conversations about that.
5 Q. We've already looked at a number of the comments made at the
6 Assembly session of 21 December 1991, including those referring to the
7 impossibility of living together and the need for as much separation as
8 possible. It's correct, isn't it, that essentially from the very
9 beginning of the SDS, SDS officials were saying, in essence, that life in
10 a sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina outside -- life in
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina outside of Yugoslavia would be tantamount to
13 A. Yes, outside of Yugoslavia.
14 Q. And in that connection, I'd like to show you a videotape found
15 at --
16 MR. TIEGER: Transcript of which can be found at tab 15. That is
17 already in evidence, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: From your list, it appears to be P826, tab 1.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. And in the interests of time, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I will indicate to
21 you that at the beginning of the video there is an introduction of persons
22 present at this rally. Among those are Dr. Karadzic and yourself,
23 according to the introduction. And now I want to turn your attention to a
24 portion of the video where we see a speaker, and I want to begin that and
25 then ask you a -- pause it briefly and then ask you a couple of questions.
1 That can be found -- the transcript of that speech is found in tab 15.
2 The video portion, I believe, begins at approximately 0.15.40. This is
3 the beginning of the video, and we should move ahead to approximately
5 [Videotape played]
6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... the special genocide of the
7 Serbian people. The Serbian people of this country."
8 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, if I could pause.
9 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, do you recognise the speaker?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And if you can just tell the Court who that is.
12 A. The little that I heard should be my voice, but I have not seen
13 the image and I don't know what this rally was.
14 Q. And we'll play it all the way through now.
15 [Videotape played]
16 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... of existence encircled human
17 Yugoslavia. As great Serbian poet Cosic said, 'Can I be proud of so many
18 deaths?' The flower of youth has been thrown away, dressed in uniforms
19 and sent to the Srijem front. We lost our lives and we brought freedom to
20 many but now in peacetime we remained without freedom and without a state.
21 We left our bones all over Yugoslavia. The price that the Serbian people
22 paid in blood has been re-made by some from Brioni in ink [as
23 interpreted]. The students who did not complete their studies, Tito's
24 followers and machinists were tearing apart our Mother Serbia. The
25 Broz-Kardelj tyranny has destroyed the brightest sons of the Serbian
1 people. But the Serbian people, I'm talking to you, they didn't have in
2 mind that great nations have deep roots and have something to return to.
3 Don't give up your homes! Let's not give up Kosovo! Don't let them
4 divide us and count us repeatedly! Don't let us fight among ourselves!
5 Serbian people, the time has come when faithless and true devoted will be
6 revealed! Serbian people cannot be manipulated any longer. We are angry
7 at Mr. Ante Markovic because he came to the Serbian wounds on Mount Kozara
8 to form his party. Why didn't he go to the north of the state to form his
9 party; we would have welcomed that. Mr. Ante Markovic keeps promising us
10 that he will take us to Europe. And I am saying that he would take us
11 there hungry and jobless to sell us as servants and cheap labour. Our
12 message to Mr. Ante Markovic is that the Serbs were in Europe in the 13th
13 century while cows were grazing on Champs d'Elysee, golden cutlery was
14 used at the court of Tsar Dusan. Europe will be here. We have ... there
15 are finest minds among the Serbian people ... what Racan did to the Serbs
16 communists, he extradited them to Tudjman so NDH-ism and Ustasha regime
17 rule in Croatia. We're clear when it comes to Brankovics because the
18 Serbian people has had their Brankovics since Kosovo. We're clear and...
19 that he doesn't prepare something perfidious for the Serbian people as
20 communists did to him a year ago when every Serb wanted to follow him.
21 Therefore, Serbs, do not vote for what communists imposed on us. We can
22 never forgive brothers killing each other. They are still dividing us but
23 they will not do it any longer! I say that right now we are divided into
24 the Serbs who do not see the coming danger and ... the town of Jasenovac,
25 to which they didn't allow us to peacefully pay reverence because alive
1 Serbs are not welcomed there. Serbian people had enough of Jasenovac,
2 Kadinjaca, Jadovno, Banjica ... enough of bones and blood ... bad smell
3 for Yugo-Serbian people coming from Broz and Kardelj, and that people went
4 through hell to enable others to live in freedom today. Nobody will ever
5 again decide in the name of the Serbian people ... we don't want slavery
6 and we mean it! The communists say, we are in favour of it, I mean in
7 favour of a federation, if others also want it, but you know very well
8 that they don't. All of them were offering us freedom from their
9 armchairs, were writing our laws, and our leader tirelessly ... because we
10 don't need more lies. We have our leader who offers us to die together
11 with us and to fight together with us for the Serbian people. That's why
12 we must support him and we all must vote for the Serbian Democratic
13 Party ... or where that name came from. But unfortunately, Serbian
14 people, that time is over. We should repently kneel in front of the altar
15 of our Serbian Orthodox Church, which has always welcomed us, even when we
16 turned our backs to it. Last two years Slobodan Milosevic did for the
17 Serbian people what St. Sava did a long time ago. And we know it very
18 well, all those who say negative things about Slobodan, represent a
19 synonym of hatred towards ... our hearts. In our hearts there is a place
20 primarily for our leader Dr. Radovan Karadzic, for Mr. Jovan Raskovic, for
21 Mr. Novak Kilibarda, and all the Serbian people ... and finally, I shall
22 invite you all" --
23 "Today when we are celebrated the 300 anniversary of the movement
24 of the Serbs, we show clearly what kind of people we are. We are
25 celebrating our" --
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, that was a video of a pre-election rally on
3 Reljevo on October 27th, 1990, and I take it that you recognise yourself
4 as the speaker whom we just saw?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you referred to the coming danger and said: "We do not want
7 slavery and we mean it," you then referred to: "The communists say we are
8 in favour of it, I mean federation, if others also want it, but it is
9 known that they don't."
10 Is it correct that what you were referring to by "slavery" was the
11 possibility of a non -- of the elimination or cessation of --
12 A. I'm not getting any interpretation. I apologise.
13 Q. No, not at all. I'm glad we're back in communication. When you
14 said "the communists are in favour of federation if others want it, but we
15 know they don't," is it correct that the reference to "federation" is the
16 reference to a federal Yugoslavia with all Serbs in the same state?
17 A. No. I did not have that in mind. I am a great opponent to
18 communism, and you have heard that. During the communist reign, my family
19 was tortured; you've heard that as well. I could never trust communists,
20 but this referred to communists. We were against a state that was called
21 a federal state of Yugoslavia. If parliamentary parties had not won the
22 elections, Mr. Prosecutor, we would still be imprisoned, we would still be
23 tortured, we would still be slaves. And that is the truth, exactly like
24 we were for the entire period of 50 years.
25 Q. And I certainly understand what you've explained to us as your
1 attitude toward communism, and you've also described your view of a
2 federal Yugoslavia. Is it correct then that you were suspicious that the
3 communists could either maintain or were willing to maintain a federal
4 Yugoslavia and wanted to ensure one way or another that federal Yugoslavia
5 was maintained?
6 A. Absolutely.
7 Q. And when you -- and that the alternative to that, as you posed it
8 in the speech, was slavery, as you've described it?
9 A. That is correct. Some people would not even be alive; they would
10 have been killed.
11 Q. And being outside for the Serbs, the Bosnian Serbs, the end of
12 federal Yugoslavia would have meant, as we've discussed in connection with
13 other parts of your testimony, the -- that would have meant that Bosnian
14 Serbs would have been in an independent state of Bosnia where they were
15 potentially a minority and where the Muslims were a majority. Is that
17 A. Allow me to say this. On the 27th of October when this rally was
18 held in Reljevo, that was in 1990, the recognition of an independent
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina was still not being mentioned. This was still a
20 federal state with federal laws in effect. I was still an enemy of
21 communism, of the federal state of Yugoslavia, in other words. Only after
22 a certain while this would happen. If the recognition of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina had come earlier and if the political situation had been
24 different earlier on, I'm sure that speeches of this nature would not have
25 taken place. But I will keep repeating that I hate communism, that I hate
2 Q. Well, one way or another, by the time you say that the issue of an
3 independent Bosnia and Herzegovina was clearly at the forefront, you
4 thought of, or at least referred to, Muslims who would represent the
5 plurality group in a sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina as
6 age-long enemies. Do you recall saying that?
7 A. I don't think that I said age-long enemies. But I did used to say
8 that they were collaborators of the enemy during the Second World War, and
9 I mean Croats and Muslims.
10 Q. Okay. I -- well, for the benefit of the Court and the
11 interpreters and yourself, ma'am, I wanted to direct your attention to a
12 very brief portion of the seventh Bosnian Serb Assembly session that we
13 referred to before, held on February 15th, pages 46 and 47 of the English,
14 and page 48 of the -- it begins at SA025415, that's the B/C/S.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Where? In what binder, Mr. Tieger?
16 MR. TIEGER: The collection of Bosnian Serb Assembly sessions
17 appear separately in order of the sessions. So the seventh session should
18 be -- not necessarily the seventh because I don't think all of them are --
19 it's the fifth one.
20 And the portion to which I wanted to direct your attention is
21 found on page 47 of the English. It's, for the benefit of the
22 interpreters, it's after the portion that mentions Mr. Kosutic, so that
23 might be a good point of reference. And it says: "With all due respect
24 to our mother country, we are Serbs, too, and no lesser Serbs than they.
25 It could be that we are even more Serbs than they because we may have
1 acquired a keener sense of Serbdom by living among our age-old enemies."
2 Q. I wanted to draw your attention to that comment, Mrs. Hrvacanin,
3 at that session. As you can --
4 A. Because they said that the anthem should be "Hej Sloveni," "Hey
5 Slavs," and this was the hymn of the communist state. I wanted the anthem
6 to be the Serbian anthem, like during the kingdom of Tomislav, that was
7 Boze Pravde. This is what I meant. I didn't mean anything bad by it.
8 Q. We understood from the earlier part of the questions and the
9 answers that the comment about age-long enemies was made in the context of
10 the points you were making about anthems. But in light of the comments
11 that we have discussed concerning as much separation as possible,
12 possibility of living together, your reference to living among age-long
13 enemies, let me direct your attention back to an issue that we raised
14 earlier in the examination.
15 That was the question of proposals to transfer or exchange
16 populations, to move Muslims to one place and Serbs to another. You said
17 you were unaware of anyone having made such proposals, and in that
18 connection I wanted to direct your attention to the article of January
19 19th in Glas that we identified earlier and that you had a chance to look
20 at over the break.
21 A. Yes, of course I read the article, and there is a disputable word
22 in the article that I never used. And the lady, the journalist, used it
23 in inverted commas. And the word is: "We are trading the" -- what I
24 thought at the time was that this referred to the division of power. When
25 I said yesterday that there were nine representatives and that the Serbs
1 accounted for 30 per cent of the power, then I believe I was clear.
2 Mrs. Buturovic -- no, Mrs. Labovic asked me whether in Bosnia and
3 Herzegovina there were the same percentage of Muslims as there are of
4 Serbs in Zenica, and I said yes. I said the gentleman from Banja Luka who
5 was appointed the chief of police, which was known as MUP at the time, and
6 that our representative Stanimir Jukovic [phoen] was still not appointed.
7 I did not talk about any transfers. I did not think that anybody was
8 supposed to be transferred anywhere. I said the way we fair -- the way we
9 Serbs fare in Zenica should be the same way that Muslims fared in Banja
10 Luka. I said that I wanted to live in Zenica not in Banja Luka.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'd like to have a clarification of the
12 witness on one of the answers she gave. I tried to follow her testimony.
13 You compared in the portion quoted the Serbs from the mother
14 country. And you said: "We are not any less Serbs than they."
15 Isn't it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was my reply to Mr. Kostunica's
17 words. I just read the article briefly, so I don't know --
18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm now referring to the portion of the -- of the
19 seventh session --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About the anthem?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. "With all due respect to our mother country,"
22 you were referring to Serbia proper. Is that correctly understood?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You say "we are Serbs and no lesser Serbs than they."
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, and I thought that
1 we should make our own decisions rather than decisions being imposed upon
3 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. So you are referring to Serbia and you were
4 comparing the Serbs living in Serbia with you, Serbs, living at the place
5 where you lived. Is that correctly understood?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is correctly understood
7 because I believe that a Serb is a Serb wherever they may be living.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you were asked when you said I -- "it
9 could be that we are even more Serbs," that is compared to the Serbs from
10 Serbia, "than they because we may have acquired a keener sense of Serbdom
11 by living among our age-old enemies."
12 And then you were asked to explain what you meant by that, or at
13 least you explained. And you said that: "The text of the anthem" -- or
14 at least the anthem, the hymn was the hymn of the communist state and you
15 wanted it to be a Serbian anthem. That's what you meant.
16 It looks as if you are saying the enemies were the communists;
17 that's how I understood your answer.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, were the Serbs in Serbia not living together
20 with communists? Because that's where you -- that's what you're
21 comparing. You're comparing Serbs from Serbia with Serbs living -- well,
22 let's say in Bosnia, where you lived, and then you say: "We have a better
23 sense of Serbdom because we lived with our age-old enemies."
24 Now, in your explanation you seem to tell us that it was because
25 you lived with the communists all the time. My question now is: Were the
1 Serbs in Serbian proper not living with the communists?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They lived with the communists.
3 They didn't celebrate religious holidays, they didn't go to church. There
4 was a ban on religion. And they lost a lot of their customs and Serbian
5 traditions, whereas us, Serbs in Bosnia, kept our traditions. We went to
6 church. We got married in church. We celebrated our religious holidays,
7 and we respected and honoured our holidays. That's why I said that we are
8 greater Serbs than the Serbs in Serbia proper.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now you say you were -- let me just find it
10 again. And you said that you even were more Serbs than they because --
11 because: "We may have acquired a keener sense of Serbdom by living among
12 our age-old enemies."
13 If you now explain to us that it was mainly in Serbia proper that
14 the Serbs are living with the communists, then who were the age-old
15 enemies you lived with you referred to and which gave you a "keener sense
16 of Serbdom"? It could not be the communists, or at least then I fully do
17 not understand your later explanation.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For me they were communists. They
19 are my age-old enemies, starting with my father, grandfather, myself, my
20 son, all of our generations.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time you just told me that where
22 you kept your traditions, that it was in Serbia proper, where the Serbs
23 suffered from the communists and not you that much; now you said living
24 with your age-old enemies gave you a keener sense of Serbdom. And you
25 said so in a comparison you made with the Serbs from Serbia. You said "we
1 are not any lesser Serbs. We developed a keener sense of Serbdom."
2 And it's totally incomprehensible for me how you developed a
3 keener sense of Serbdom by living with your age-old enemies, where you at
4 the same time say that it was in Serbia proper that the Serbs were --
5 well, let's say, suffering more or less under the communists more than you
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We used the Cyrillic script. We had
8 our own alphabet, although in the constitution of the former Republic of
9 Yugoslavia --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking for further explanation on -- I'm,
11 first of all, trying to understand how you -- where you said that you were
12 better in a position to keep your tradition as Serbs, how you developed a
13 keener sense of Serbdom while living with your age-old enemies if they
14 were the communists. Because at the same time you tell us that it was in
15 Serbia proper that the Serbs were under communist dominance.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could not go to church. They
17 could not follow their customs because they would have been imprisoned if
18 they had. I was not a communist, and I could be religious. I could
19 honour my customs, and other people who were not communists could do the
20 same. And they, they could not do that and be communists. This was
21 mutually exclusive. If they wanted to be communists, if they wanted to
22 share power, if they wanted to be seen as ministers, they had to be
23 communists. This was a characteristic that was mandatory at the time. I
24 myself was not one of them.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So they were living with the communists, isn't it?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. They were communists.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They were communists. You explained that
3 communism made it impossible for them to be real Serbs, to keep to their
4 traditions. And at the same time you say "we," making a comparison
5 between the two, "we developed a keen sense of Serbdom because we," still
6 in this comparison, "we lived with our age-old enemies."
7 So what you say is: We were living with our age-old enemies. You
8 identify these age-old enemies as the communists, and at the same time you
9 explain to us that it was in the other territory, on Serbia proper, that
10 the Serbs were suffering under the communists. So I have difficulties in
11 reconciling these two.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Will you allow me to answer your
13 question, please?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was the federal
16 state of Yugoslavia. All the laws were federal laws, and there was
17 communism. There was a regime which was more pronounced in Serbia. It
18 was also pronounced in our midst. We had to fight against the federal and
19 the republican regimes. We had people who worked for UDBA, who were
20 spying on Serbs, the headquarters of all that was in Belgrade. We had
21 local communists on the one hand, and on the other hand we had federal
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand this description. It,
24 nevertheless, does not address the issue I raised.
25 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, before I return to the issue we were focussing on
4 in connection with this article, I can follow-up on the issue you were
5 just discussing with His Honour. You say in the article at page 3 of the
6 English: "Serbian people are taking a veil off." That's -- and for your
7 benefit, that is the -- about the sixth paragraph from the end.
8 "Serbian people are taking a veil off and I believe that current
9 steps of the SDS in the republic have been profound and far-reaching, and
10 we in Zenica fully support them."
11 Now, I'm correct -- I think that the steps taken by the SDS in the
12 republic as of July -- or January 19th, 1992, were along the lines of
13 those we discussed when looking at the Assembly session of 21 December
14 1992. Isn't that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And those steps, as we saw from the references in the Assembly
17 session, were directed not at the concerns about communists but at the
18 concerns about Muslims and Croats?
19 A. They were also communists. Everybody was communist.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock. How much time
21 would you still need?
22 MR. TIEGER: Well, it's one of those relatively -- I'm not going
23 to take a great deal of additional time. I'm very reluctant, however, to
24 commit myself to such a narrow period of time that we could extend the
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, may I take it that there's some need to
2 re-examine the witness, Mr. Stewart?
3 MR. STEWART: I don't know yet, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. But while you might have some questions
5 already or if you say, well, this should come up --
6 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, if it's helpful, it -- I
7 wouldn't -- as things stand at the moment, I certainly wouldn't have any
8 extensive re-examination.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. But if it would be -- if Mr. Tieger would
10 need another ten minutes, if you would need another ten minutes, then that
11 would be 20 minutes past 7.00. That's too long. Judges might have some
12 other questions as well.
13 MR. STEWART: From what Mr. Tieger has already said, Your Honour,
14 it doesn't appear that continuing this evening is a suitable course.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Hrvacanin, we will not -- it will not be
17 possible for us to finish your testimony today. Since we are not sitting
18 tomorrow, I'd like you to come back next Thursday at a quarter past 2.00
19 in this same courtroom. And I'll now not forget to instruct you not to
20 speak with anyone about the testimony you have given and the testimony
21 still to be given. And I hope that the health situation of your husband
22 will be fine.
23 Then we will adjourn until next Tuesday, quarter past 2.00 --
24 Thursday, quarter past 2.00.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of
2 December, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.