Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19361

 1                          Monday, 12 December 2005

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 3.08 p.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case number

 7    IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.  Thank you.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 9            Mr. Stewart, is the Defence ready to call its next witness?  I'm

10    asking you because although we had in mind to deal with some procedural

11    matters, I'm not properly prepared at this moment and therefore the

12    Chamber is not properly prepared.  We'll do that as soon as possible, but

13    I'd like to continue now not to discuss these procedural matters at this

14    very moment but to do that at a later moment.

15            MR. STEWART:  Yes, absolutely.  Your Honour, may we simply say

16    that on behalf of the Defence team we do offer condolences for -- we

17    understand Your Honour has suffered a personal loss and we offer our

18    thoughts to you.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.  I received already in writing

20    from both parties the -- their feelings, and I highly appreciate and --

21    and that's at the same time the explanation why we will not deal with the

22    procedural matters at this moment.  So therefore thank you very much.  And

23    you're ready --

24            MR. STEWART:  The answer is yes, Your Honour, we are ready.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that will be a witness without any

Page 19362

 1    protective measures and it will be Mr. Micic?

 2            MR. STEWART:  That's correct, Your Honour, Mr. Momcilo Micic.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 4            Madam Usher, would you escort the witness into the courtroom.

 5                          [The witness entered court]

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Micic.  Can you hear me in a

 7    language you understand?

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Yes, I

 9    can.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence in this court, Mr. Micic,

11    the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

12    declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

13    but the truth.  The text will now be handed out to you by Madam Usher.

14    May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Micic.  Please be seated.  You'll be

18    examined -- I take it by you, Mr. Stewart?

19            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, yes, it's me.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  You will be examined by Mr. Stewart, who is counsel

21    for the Defence.

22            You may proceed, Mr. Stewart.

23            MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                          WITNESS:  MOMCILO MICIC

25                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 19363

 1                          Examined by Mr. Stewart:

 2       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Micic.  Mr. Micic, I'm going to run through a

 3    certain amount of what I believe will be basic background information,

 4    some of it personal to you and some relating to the situation in Bosnia

 5    and Herzegovina back in 1990/1991.

 6            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, of course in the usual way, if anybody

 7    feels I'm crossing the line at any point, no doubt they will say.

 8       Q.   Your name is Momcilo Micic.  You were born on the 21st of January,

 9    1939, in Bijeljina.  You are a mechanical engineer by training and

10    qualification.  Up until 1990, you worked in a private firm, Ferotehnika

11    in Tuzla.  Is all that correct?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And you remained in Tuzla until the 14th of May, 1992, when you

14    left for Belgrade, and your wife and your 25-year-old son, that's one of

15    your two sons, on that day or the day before, also went to Belgrade.  Is

16    that right?  We'll come back to these events in more detail, Mr. Micic,

17    but what I've said so far is correct, is it?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And you have lived in Belgrade ever since May 1992?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   You were a member of the communist party for 30 years until the

22    collapse of communism in Yugoslavia and other places?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   You have never been a member of the SDS?

25       A.   No.  No, I was never a member of the SDS.

Page 19364

 1       Q.   And did you join Ante Markovic's party, the SRS, when it was

 2    founded in the spring of 1990?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And is it correct that you were active in launching that

 5    particular party in the Tuzla region?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And the Tuzla region for these purposes consists, does it, of 19

 8    municipalities - I've -- I hope I've eased the pain for the interpreters

 9    by given them a written list of these municipalities - but they are:

10    Tuzla, Zevinice, Vukavak, Klodinje, Srebrenica, Zvornik, Sekovici,

11    Bijeljina, Ugljevic, Lopari, Brcko, Gracanica, Vlasenica, Srebrenik,

12    Orasje, Puracic, Banovce.

13            Is that list correct?  I missed one, did I?

14            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear what the witness

15    said.

16            MR. STEWART:

17       Q.   You'll have to repeat your answer.  It's you the interpreters

18    didn't hear, Mr. Micic.

19       A.   And the municipality of Kalesija.

20       Q.   Thank you.  What was your particular active role in relation to

21    the SRS party in Tuzla?

22       A.   I was the president of the party for the Tuzla region.

23       Q.   And was there any sort of group or committee in which you were

24    involved?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 19365

 1       Q.   What was that?

 2       A.   We formed a party which had its statute, its bodies, its

 3    committees, subcommittees.  It had everything that a political party was

 4    supposed to have.

 5       Q.   Now, Tuzla, you lived in Tuzla at that time in 1990, did you?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And Tuzla had for -- I won't say always, but for a long time, for

 8    many, many years, if not decades, Tuzla had been the centre of the region

 9    constituted by the municipalities which I mentioned with your addition.

10    That's right, is it?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   So it was pre-existing region which was adopted then after the

13    collapse of communism?

14       A.   Before that and afterwards.  It was also a region during

15    socialism, during the Socialist Federal Yugoslavia.  And then later also

16    it was a region in the multi-party system.

17       Q.   But what do you remember as being the ethnic division of the town

18    of Tuzla in 1990?

19       A.   The town of Tuzla itself had about 130.000 inhabitants, 15 point

20    something were Croats, 15 point something per cent were Serbs, 16 per cent

21    I think were Yugoslavs, and I think about 43 per cents were Muslims.

22       Q.   And approximately what was the population of the town of Tuzla at

23    that time?

24       A.   About 130.000 inhabitants.

25       Q.   Did you at any time consider joining the SDS?

Page 19366

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Could you summarise how you saw the differences between the SDS

 3    and the SRS in 1990 at the time -- well, in 1990?

 4       A.   The difference was in that we were a party of all the citizens of

 5    Bosnia and Herzegovina.  We were a party that was in favour of Yugoslavia.

 6    It did not differentiate in relation to the ethnic structure, while the

 7    SDS, the HDZ, and the SDA were purely national or nationalist parties.

 8       Q.   Is it possible to say whether the SRS attracted a particular type

 9    of person from those different nationalities?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   So how would you put that?

12       A.   All those who thought a little differently than just purely from

13    the national aspect.  Bosnia is a republic that had a lot of basic

14    industries and also was dependent on the economy of Serbia, Croatia, and

15    was also reliant on those republics, especially Serbia, for its exports.

16    So any kind of secession or any kind of inference in that would mean a

17    loss of factories, a loss of markets, and would lead to a collapse.  So

18    all those who thought that you needed something to make a living from were

19    actually those who supported us.

20       Q.   Now, did you, as a representative of the SRS, attend SDS, SDA, and

21    HDZ meetings in Tuzla in the course of 1990?

22       A.   Only some meetings and purely out of courtesy.

23       Q.   Well, first, in July 1990 did you attend an SDS inaugural meeting

24    in a tennis stadium in Tuzla?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 19367

 1       Q.   But, in fact, there was a mining accident that very day which

 2    apparently significantly affected the attendance.  Is that correct?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And how many people did attend that meeting?

 5       A.   A few scores of people, very few people.

 6       Q.   Who from the -- if anybody, from the SDS leadership was present at

 7    that meeting?

 8            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't understand whether the

 9    witness said "yes" or "no."

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Micic.  The

11    interpreters could not hear your answer.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were members of the SDS

13    leadership present.

14            MR. STEWART:

15       Q.   And who were present from the leadership?

16       A.   I recall Radovan Karadzic being there.

17       Q.   Anybody else?

18       A.   Local officials from Tuzla who were members of the SDS.  I don't

19    remember whether anyone else was there from Sarajevo or other places.

20       Q.   Is Mr. Krajisnik somebody who you would have recognised at the

21    time?

22       A.   Naturally.

23       Q.   Are you able to say whether he was or might have been there?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Could Mrs. Plavsic have been there?

Page 19368

 1       A.   I think so, yes.

 2       Q.   Did you speak to Dr. Karadzic on that occasion?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Was there any -- in the broader sense, was there any political

 5    content to your discussion with or -- with what passed between you and

 6    Dr. Karadzic on that occasion?

 7       A.   No.  I simply talked about the mining tragedy.  There were about

 8    80 miners killed in the mine, and I thought it was inappropriate to play

 9    music and to sing at the stadium in a town where there had been so many

10    casualties.  And I said that it would be good for them not to do that on

11    that particular day, which he did not agree with.  So after that, I left.

12       Q.   Was there an SDA rally in some time around the middle of 1990 in

13    Tuzla?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And where any of the national leaders of the SDA present?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Which of them?

18       A.   Fikret Abdic was there and Silajdzic.

19       Q.   Anybody else?

20       A.   There were local officials present, SDA leaders, and there were

21    also members or the leaders of the MBO.

22       Q.   And you attended that rally, did you?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Can you say how many people were there?

25       A.   The meeting was held at the Tuzla hotel.  There were a lot of

Page 19369

 1    people whom I didn't know, even though Tuzla is not a large town.  More or

 2    less we all know each other, but there were a lot of people whom I didn't

 3    recognise.  There were a lot of slogans.  But there were a couple of

 4    hundred people, not more than that.

 5       Q.   Did the HDZ also hold a rally in or near Tuzla around the middle

 6    of 1990?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Was it actually in Tuzla town?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Where was it?

11       A.   It was in a neighbourhood near Tuzla.

12       Q.   Did you attend that rally?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Was there any difference that you saw in 1990 in the influence

15    that those three parties, the SDA, the SDS, and the HDZ, were able to

16    achieve in Tuzla?

17       A.   There was no difference between those three parties as far as

18    their policies were concerned.  They fought together against the former

19    system, and they felt that that was sufficient.

20       Q.   You -- did you stand for election to the Bosnia and Herzegovina

21    parliament in the 1990 November elections, and were you elected?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Before your involvement in the SRS in Tuzla, had you held any

24    political positions?

25       A.   No.

Page 19370

 1       Q.   What was the -- in the municipality of Tuzla, what was the outcome

 2    in terms of voting in the 1990 -- November 1990 multi-party elections?

 3       A.   In the town of Tuzla itself, the national parties won very few

 4    votes, practically nothing; the SRS and the League of Communists got the

 5    most votes.  So we made a coalition of those two parties and formed the

 6    government in Tuzla.

 7       Q.   Can you recall what were the relative votes achieved by your party

 8    and the League of Communists?

 9       A.   I believe it was -- I don't know, 39 or 43 -- no, we had 39 and

10    the League of Communists had about 30.  The SDA nine, I believe.  The MBO

11    probably seven.  The HDZ around 5 per cent.  And the SDS had 11 or 12

12    per cent or thereabouts.  I can't be sure of the percentages, but that was

13    more or less the situation.

14       Q.   Were you personally involved in power-sharing discussions in Tuzla

15    following those elections?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Now, was it -- your party -- after the election, did your party

18    remain a non-ethnic or multi-ethnic party?

19       A.   It was a multi-ethnic party.  All the ethnic groups were

20    represented.

21       Q.   Were there, within your party, any differences in the approach

22    of -- within the membership of your own party I'm asking, were there any

23    differences in the approach of the different nationalities?

24       A.   Initially not.  However, when the municipal government was

25    established, then the differences could be felt.

Page 19371

 1       Q.   And what were those differences that could be felt?

 2       A.   Since we established a coalition with the SDP, which was the

 3    former League of Communists, and we formed power together, we had joined

 4    meetings in order to distribute positions in the local government.  Nobody

 5    else could be given any position but the Muslims, and both parties had

 6    members of the Muslim ethnic group who supported those proposals for

 7    Muslim holders of various positions.

 8       Q.   Then what was your personal attitude towards that position adopted

 9    by the Muslims?

10       A.   At that moment there were no major objections, because the people

11    appointed were professionals and had skills and knowledge for the

12    positions that they were appointed to.  We didn't care much about the

13    ethnicity of those people; we just wanted them to be up to the positions

14    to which they were being appointed.

15       Q.   Now, who was Mehmed Bajric?

16       A.   Mehmed Bajric was the chief of the municipal secretariat of the

17    interior.  He was in that position even before.  He was the chief of the

18    secretariat of the municipality of Tuzla, and he was a non-party

19    candidate; he did not belong to any party.  I believe that he should stay

20    in that position because he had proven himself as a professional.

21       Q.   Is it correct he was -- are you saying he was not even formally a

22    member of any political party?

23       A.   I didn't know that.  Formally he was a member of the League of

24    Communists, and once the police was depoliticised, or at least that's how

25    they wished to be perceived, I did not object to him remaining in that

Page 19372

 1    position because he was a professional.  He knew the job well at that

 2    moment.

 3       Q.   He was a Muslim, was he, Mehmed Bajric?

 4       A.   Yes.  And the chief of the regional interior was Budimir Nikolic,

 5    who was a Serb.

 6       Q.   Were you personally adopting any public position in relation to

 7    the future of the Tuzla region?

 8       A.   At the moment of the elections, no.

 9       Q.   Did you subsequently -- well, either before or after, did you at

10    any time adopt a public position in relation specifically to the future of

11    the Tuzla region?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And, well, first of all, when was that?  Before or after the

14    elections?

15       A.   After the elections.

16       Q.   What was that position that you adopted?

17       A.   My position was for a civic Tuzla.  Tuzla is an industrial complex

18    that was a very powerful complex with basic industry, and its produce was

19    mostly sold in Serbia.  And once polarisation took place, I used the local

20    television and the local press to bring people to their senses.  There was

21    even an initiative initially, and it was supported by all, for Tuzla to be

22    separated from the rest of Bosnia and to remain in Yugoslavia.  However,

23    that initiative fell through very quickly because all who were in power at

24    the moment were mostly of Muslim ethnicity.  And little by little they all

25    opted for the SDA policies.

Page 19373

 1       Q.   That initiative that you describe as having fell through, was that

 2    one that you personally supported?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   It implied, did it, that Bosnia and Herzegovina would otherwise

 5    become independent from the rest of Yugoslavia?

 6       A.   Well, if it could not remain in Yugoslavia, at least for it to

 7    become independent or remain independent.

 8       Q.   Turning to the National Assembly, the Bosnia and Herzegovina

 9    Assembly, after the election, it's correct, is it, that at the first

10    session Mr. Krajisnik was unanimously elected as the president of the

11    parliament?

12       A.   Yes.  Unanimously on behalf of the three national parties.  We did

13    not vote for that proposal.

14       Q.   So it's the position that -- so the SDA, the SDS, and the HDZ

15    deputies, did they unanimously support Mr. Krajisnik's election as

16    president of the Assembly?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Did the members of your party adopt a group position and all vote

19    the same way on that issue?

20       A.   At that moment, yes.  We were opposed to any election using the

21    national quota, not only of the president of the Assembly, his deputy, and

22    the secretary, but also prime minister, members of parliament, everybody

23    else.

24       Q.   Did you abstain or vote against the proposals?

25       A.   I believe that we were against.

Page 19374

 1       Q.   Is it correct that Mr. Mariofil Ljubic of the HDZ was elected

 2    vice-president and Mr. Avdo Campara of the SDA was elected secretary of

 3    the parliament?

 4            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer and speak perhaps

 6    a bit more close to the microphone so that the interpreters can better

 7    hear you.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Momcilo Krajisnik was elected

 9    president; Mariofil Ljubic was elected vice-president, and Sead Avdic was

10    elected the secretary of the Assembly.

11            MR. STEWART:

12       Q.   And is it correct that the Assembly assisted of two Chambers, the

13    citizens' council to which you belonged, chaired by Mustafa Konjicija of

14    the SDA, and the Council of Municipalities chaired by Petko Cancar of the

15    SDS.  Is that right?

16       A.   Pursuant to the constitution of the municipality, it was a

17    two-chamber assembly with a house of citizens and a house of municipality

18    and a council for national equality.  In other words, it had three

19    separate council or houses, which was provided for by the constitution.

20       Q.   And what was to be the -- as you understood it at the time, what

21    was to be the position of the -- role of the Council for National

22    Equality?

23       A.   Bosnia and Herzegovina consists of three constituent ethnic

24    groups:  Muslims, Serbs, and Croats.  And in order to avoid outvoting on

25    certain issues on the agenda or any other issue, the constitution provided

Page 19375

 1    for 20 MPs to be able to take that off the agenda and for this to be

 2    referred to the Council for National Equality where it would be a

 3    consensus who would decide on that.  Until this moment, this council never

 4    took off the ground.  It was never even established because the Muslim and

 5    Croat representatives refused to do that.

 6       Q.   What was -- well, was your attitude - and we'll come to what it

 7    was in a moment - but was your attitude towards that refusal by the Muslim

 8    and Croat representatives the same as that of your own party colleagues?

 9       A.   We were the first ones to request that, and we even drafted a

10    request to that effect.  We wanted the council to be established.  But the

11    president of the council at the time, Mustafa Konjic, turned the proposal

12    down.

13       Q.   Your party had 13 members -- deputies in the parliament at that

14    time.  Is that correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   How many of those were Serbs?

17       A.   Four.

18       Q.   Was the -- was the proposal to --

19            MR. STEWART:  Excuse me one moment.

20       Q.   Yes.  You said that the Council for National Equality never took

21    off the ground, was never even established.  Was there any step taken by

22    any leading member of the SDS to try to get that body established and off

23    the ground?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Can you remember when any such steps were first taken by leading

Page 19376

 1    members of the SDS?

 2       A.   Mr. Krajisnik was the one who made several attempts to put this on

 3    the agenda of the Assembly, for the council to be established; this was in

 4    the second half of 1991.  But this was never adopted as an item on the

 5    agenda because the Muslims and the Croats were always against that.

 6       Q.   And what was your own attitude towards Mr. Krajisnik's proposal?

 7       A.   We supported that proposal.  I personally supported it because I

 8    thought that this was the only thing that would provide for the equality

 9    of all the three peoples.

10       Q.   Was your personal -- was your support -- was support also given by

11    your colleagues in the SRS among the deputies?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   All of them or was there some division of view among the SRS

14    deputies?

15       A.   Not at the time.  We were all in favour of this.

16       Q.   Did there at some point emerge any significant difference of views

17    among the SRS deputies in the Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   When did that first occur?

20       A.   This happened when the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina held

21    some of their meetings in the absence of other members.  Only the Muslims

22    and the Croats attended those meetings and made decisions that were

23    supposed to be implemented and when the coalition between the SDA and the

24    HDZ was already very clear.  They sent a request to the JNA to leave

25    Bosnia because they were a hostile army.  That is when a polarisation took

Page 19377

 1    place in the SRS itself.

 2       Q.   Did any of your colleagues among the SRS deputies participate in

 3    those meetings and in those decisions referred to in your last answer?

 4       A.   The four of us who were Serbs in the SRS were also members of the

 5    Main Board of the SRS for Bosnia and Herzegovina, and this is what was

 6    taking place at the Main Board of the SRS of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 7       Q.   I'm going to ask you to clarify.  When you say:  "This is what was

 8    taking place at the Main Board of the SRS," could you be rather more

 9    specific as to what it was that was taking place.

10       A.   The Main Board of the SRS considered the newly arisen political

11    situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina and opted for some positions and gave

12    directives to the MPs as to how they were supposed to behave in the

13    Republican Assembly.  We were -- we had some disagreements about the army.

14    Some were in favour of the army staying, for it to be a multi-national

15    rather than mono-national.  Alija didn't want Muslims to go to the army,

16    that they should leave the army.  Truth be told, only the foot-soldiers

17    were being referred to; the officers remained in the army.  And this is

18    where we divided, whether the JNA should be a multi-national or for the

19    two nations to leave the JNA.  This is what we could not agree on.

20       Q.   How would you describe relations among the three national parties,

21    the SDA, the SDS, and the HDZ, in the first two or three months after the

22    multi-party elections in November 1990?

23       A.   I'll try to answer your question.  The relationship, if you are

24    asking me about the relationship between the three multi-national --

25    mono-national parties, at the beginning those relationship [as

Page 19378

 1    interpreted] was very good.  We had common positions, if that was your

 2    question.

 3       Q.   Was there at any point any significant change?

 4       A.   Those changes took place when there was a -- over voting when

 5    there was an informal coalition between the SDA and the HDZ.

 6       Q.   Can you say --

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Hanoteau would like to put a question to the

 8    witness, Mr. Stewart.

 9            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm very sorry, Mr. Stewart,

10    for this.  Before you go any further, I would like to seek some

11    clarification on two points from the witness and this is to do with the

12    Assembly.  He told us that there was the citizens' chamber and the chamber

13    for the municipalities.

14            Is that so?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Could you be more specific.  How

17    were they made up, respectively?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the election results,

19    those houses consisted of Croats, Serbs, and Muslims.  I wouldn't be able

20    to give you the exact percentages of those three peoples.

21            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] In what were they different?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The house of citizens was elected

23    from the electoral units which were below the region.  For example, the

24    municipality of Tuzla gave five or six MPs into the -- into the Assembly.

25    And all the other municipalities were entitled to one MP in the house of

Page 19379

 1    municipalities.

 2            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And for a bill to be passed, did

 3    it have to be submitted to both houses?  If there was a vote on a bill,

 4    did it have to go through the two houses?

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some yes, some no.  Those that

 6    concerned the municipal government, the local government, it sufficed for

 7    the house of municipalities to vote on those.

 8            As for the bills that concerned the entire republic, it was the

 9    house of citizens that did that.  There were also bills that had to be

10    voted on by both houses.

11            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] My second question is about the

12    Council of National Equality.  I didn't quite get what its role was.

13    Could you describe it again for me.  What should its role have been?  What

14    was the role it had under the constitution?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the constitution, this

16    council had to have an equal number of members from all the three

17    constituent peoples of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And whatever 20 MPs

18    believed could be harmful and at the expense of one ethnic group, they

19    could ask for such an item to be taken off the agenda and referred to the

20    council.  The council was then supposed to consider such an item among

21    themselves, and they were supposed to come up with a joint position on

22    such an item in dispute.

23            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Why did the Muslims and the

24    Croats not want to see this body work?  What kind of explanation do you

25    have for it?

Page 19380

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have my private opinion on that.

 2            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Go ahead, please.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Croats were in favour of the

 4    secession of Bosnia because the secession of Croatia had already been

 5    underway.  And Muslims believed that that's -- that was the way for them

 6    to get their own republic with the help of the Croats, because both groups

 7    were in favour of the civic Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and they

 8    were not in favour of the civic state of Yugoslavia, which was much better

 9    in respecting human and civic rights.

10            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] One last question.  If we keep in

11    mind the first, the inaugural session in Tuzla in July 1990, you said that

12    you had an opportunity to speak to Radovan Karadzic.  Is that so?

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Did you know him from before?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

18            MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19       Q.   Mr. Micic, we know - and this is not in dispute, the Trial Chamber

20    has heard a lot of evidence already about it - there was a crisis in the

21    Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly in the middle of October 1991; that's

22    well-established.  Was there any sort of crisis or anything approaching a

23    crisis before that date?

24       A.   There were attempts in the form of various questions about the

25    future of Bosnia, the secession of Bosnia, and so on.  So there were

Page 19381

 1    heated debates between the parties, but in the end, thanks to a rational

 2    policy conducted by Mr. Krajisnik, everything would calm down and some

 3    sort of order would be brought back.

 4       Q.   What was Mr. Krajisnik -- was Mr. Krajisnik, for practical

 5    purposes, always present at Assembly sessions as president?

 6       A.   Yes.  I think so, yes.

 7       Q.   What was his own participation when such heated debates occurred?

 8       A.   Mr. Krajisnik is a pragmatic person.  He tried to calm down the

 9    situation and to find a solution which would be good for both sides.

10       Q.   Did any member of the Bosnian -- of the SDS leadership, I beg your

11    pardon, did any member of the SDS leadership at any time before October

12    1991 bring any sort of pressure on you or your colleagues in the SRS in

13    relation to voting in parliament?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Did you -- I'll -- again, I'll take the period up to October 1991.

16    Did you ever meet Mr. Krajisnik in any way in connection with

17    parliamentary business?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Can you say for the period from the elections in November 1990 up

20    to the crisis which I mentioned in October 1991 how often or how many

21    times you met Mr. Krajisnik?

22       A.   A couple of times, two or three times.  I think the first time I

23    met Mr. Krajisnik was when -- when I left the SRS because of the earlier

24    described events, and then there was a request that we were going to lose

25    our mandate.  This was done by the party, because we had left the party.

Page 19382

 1    But since the party was dead anyway -- I mean, we stayed in the Assembly.

 2    So that was the first question because of which I went to see

 3    Mr. Krajisnik, not in order to attempt to persuade him to stay, but just

 4    to hear what his views were on the topic.

 5       Q.   Can I just first, then, in the light of that answer, Mr. Micic,

 6    ask you when was it that you left the SRS?

 7       A.   It's difficult to give the exact date, but once we left the SRS we

 8    made a statement for the then-daily Oslobodjenja, so this is something

 9    that you can then establish what date it was exactly because Oslobodjenja

10    published this information.

11            In any case, it was perhaps two or three months before the crisis

12    that then happened in the Assembly, perhaps even more than that.

13       Q.   Was there -- well, how many of the SRS deputies left the party at

14    that time?

15       A.   Four.

16       Q.   Were those the four Serbs?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Was there something specific which triggered off or finally

19    provoked you to leave the party?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And what was it?

22       A.   I already explained at the beginning that there was a

23    misunderstanding relating to the implementation of the mobilisation to the

24    ranks of the Yugoslav People's Army and the demand that the Yugoslav

25    People's Army be ruled out, because that was when the Muslims had already

Page 19383

 1    began to create the Patriotic League as well as some kind of reserve

 2    police forces.  We believed that two armies in one terrain or territory

 3    could only fight, and we did not support this because we felt it was

 4    leading to war.

 5       Q.   Now, first of all, can we be clear, you say there was a

 6    misunderstanding relating to the implementation of mobilisation.  Between

 7    whom was that misunderstanding?

 8       A.   Alija first publicly addressed the nation asking that recruits,

 9    Muslims, do not go to the army; and for those who were already in the

10    army, to leave it.  So it was a public call.  And then there were problems

11    caused by this between the army and the local branches that were carrying

12    out the recruitment, because the recruitment because carried out by

13    centres in the municipalities and not by the army.  So then there were

14    problems and disagreements in relation to this.  We were outvoted on this

15    without any proper documents or any proper explanation that this would be

16    a wise move.  It was just simply a decision not to join the army and to

17    form two armies.

18       Q.   What specifically were you outvoted on?

19       A.   On the question of the recruitment of conscripts and regarding the

20    documentation which was being kept in the recruitment centres.

21       Q.   So this was a motion or proposal put forward in the Assembly, was

22    it, on which you were outvoted?

23       A.   I am talking about the Main Board of the party; this is still not

24    about the Assembly.

25       Q.   I beg your pardon, Mr. Micic.  Who -- within the Main Board of

Page 19384

 1    your party, who put forward this proposal?

 2       A.   I think that it was Dzevad Sokolovic, Professor Dzevad Sokolovic,

 3    who was actually not a deputy.

 4       Q.   When you -- did you formally resign, then, from the SRS?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Did that have any effect upon your status as a deputy in the

 7    Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Did anybody else suggest that it did have any effect upon your

10    status as a deputy in that Assembly?

11       A.   SRS officially demanded from the Assembly to strip us of our

12    mandates.

13       Q.   Well, were they successful?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   How were they blocked from stripping you of your mandate?

16       A.   I think that the request was sent as a formal course of action.

17    Nobody actually asked for this to be put on the agenda, so this is not

18    something that was actually discussed by the Assembly itself.

19       Q.   Do you know why it did not get on the agenda?

20       A.   No, I don't.  I said that no official deputy asked for it to be

21    placed on the agenda, or at least I don't know if such a request was made.

22       Q.   Did you -- were you present on the night of the 14th and 15th of

23    October, 1991, in the Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly when the Serb

24    deputies at some point walked out?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 19385

 1       Q.   And how would you describe Mr. Krajisnik's handling of that

 2    situation?

 3       A.   He behaved the way he behaved up until that time.  He tried, in a

 4    way, to bring some sense to this matter, to kind of deal with this problem

 5    in a different way, to put it off, to perhaps send it to the

 6    constitutional commission.  But the position of the SDA and the HDZ was

 7    quite firm, and nothing could be done about it.

 8       Q.   Did you -- you continued, did you, after that crisis as a member

 9    of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Had you at that time had any meeting with Dr. Karadzic since the

12    time that you had met him in Tuzla way back in 1990?

13       A.   At the Assembly, no.

14       Q.   What about outside the Assembly?  And I'm talking about the period

15    now between when you met him at that rally in Tuzla in 1990 and

16    mid-October 1991 when there was the parliamentary crisis.  Did you --

17       A.   No, not since October, no.

18       Q.   I beg your pardon, you say "not since October," just so that we --

19       A.   Until October, no.

20       Q.   Did you after mid-October and that parliamentary crisis meet

21    Dr. Karadzic?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And when was -- whether or not it was more than one occasion, when

24    did you first meet Dr. Karadzic after mid-October 1991?

25       A.   I think in early 1992, perhaps sometime in March.

Page 19386

 1       Q.   Where did you meet him?

 2       A.   At the Holiday Inn.

 3       Q.   In Sarajevo?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And upon whose initiative did that meeting take place?

 6       A.   On my initiative.

 7       Q.   Was there anybody else at that meeting, apart from you and

 8    Dr. Karadzic?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Who else was present?

11       A.   Mr. Krajisnik was there as well as the general of the Tuzla Corps

12    command, General Jankovic, as well as his security chief, Milomir.  I

13    really don't remember what his surname is at the moment.  He was a

14    colonel.  Rasulovic.

15       Q.   And was there anybody else who was a member of the SDS present at

16    that meeting?

17       A.   I think Professor Aleksa Buha was there.

18       Q.   And what was the reason -- if there was one, what was the reason

19    for that meeting?

20       A.   The reason for the meeting was simply for me as well as General

21    Jankovic, who was at the time the corps commander of the Tuzla corps, to

22    hear what the SDS thought about the coming period so that we could form

23    our own position.  We wanted to get some information.

24       Q.   And who in that context is we?  You said:  "We wanted to get some

25    information."

Page 19387

 1       A.   At the time the Tuzla municipality was still a civic one and it

 2    was very homogenous in its actions.  So we tried to get some information

 3    from all three of the national parties.  We tried to see what their

 4    positions were, what they were thinking.

 5       Q.   So was General Jankovic there with you, as it were, with you going

 6    with him to find out jointly these matters?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Why did General Jankovic participate with you in that way?

 9       A.   I knew General Jankovic personally.  I was on not friendly terms

10    with him, but we were acquaintances.  And it was question for him as a

11    corps commander what to do, how to do things regarding the question of

12    whether the army would remain there or not.  We just needed to know what

13    the positions were.  We needed to get this directly rather than just hear

14    about it from the radio or television.

15       Q.   Did you travel from Tuzla with General Jankovic to Sarajevo for

16    that meeting?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Did others of your colleagues from Tuzla travel to Sarajevo at the

19    same time for a meeting or meetings there?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Did you and General Jankovic hold any other meetings or attend any

22    other meetings on that visit to Sarajevo, apart from the one with

23    Dr. Karadzic and the people you've mentioned?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Did you on any other occasions hold meetings with any other

Page 19388

 1    representatives of any other political party in Sarajevo in connection

 2    with the concerns you've indicated?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Before or after the meeting with Dr. Karadzic?

 5       A.   Before.

 6       Q.   How long before?

 7       A.   I think in late 1990 -- no, 1991, excuse me.

 8       Q.   And with what other political party or parties did you hold any

 9    such meeting?

10       A.   I was in the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I was with

11    Minister Delimustafic.  He was the minister for internal affairs.

12       Q.   What was your position in the government?

13       A.   I didn't have a position.  I was not a member of the government.

14       Q.   Well, you said you were in the government.  In what sense then

15    were you in the government?

16       A.   I was with the president of the Tuzla Executive Council together

17    at that meeting at Delimustafic's with the intention of trying to keep

18    these two people at the regional SUP and also at the municipal secretariat

19    for internal affairs, which by the party distribution of those posts were

20    given to others and they were supposed to be replaced, Dr. Sead Avdic and

21    myself.

22       Q.   The two people you've just referred to in your answer, you

23    said:  "With the intention of trying to keep these two people at the

24    regional but also the municipal secretariat," who were the two people?

25       A.   I was thinking of Mehmed Bajric and Budimir Nikolic.

Page 19389

 1       Q.   Let's go back then, please, to the meeting that you held with --

 2    you described with Dr. Karadzic and others you mentioned.  Was Professor

 3    Koljevic present?

 4       A.   It's possible.  I can't be certain, but I can't remember.

 5       Q.   Mrs. Plavsic?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Now, you've already told Their Honours that it was at your

 8    instigation or initiative that the meeting was set up.  Did you at the

 9    meeting put any proposals, questions, or items for discussion to

10    Dr. Karadzic or his colleagues?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And what then?

13       A.   We talked about the position of the Yugoslav People's Army in the

14    territory that was covered by that corps, and we wanted to see whether the

15    SDS, at the time one of the ruling parties, whether they had any thoughts

16    on that, any plans.  We wanted to get some information.  So it was the

17    eastern corps, the corps in the Tuzla region.

18       Q.   And did you get information?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Was there an expressed or apparent refusal to give you

21    information?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   So what was your assessment of why you did not get the information

24    you were seeking?

25       A.   First of all, we wanted to hear the programme, what the objectives

Page 19390

 1    were.  Then we understood that there was no programme and there were no

 2    objectives.

 3       Q.   You're talking about the objectives of the SDS, are you?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Was there -- well, before you started the meeting, did you have an

 6    opinion as to what the essential objectives of the SDS were?

 7       A.   I personally think that the SDS is a forced party.  It's a popular

 8    movement created as a reaction to the forming of the Muslim party, the

 9    SDA, and the HDZ, too.  And I think the HDZ was actually formed later, but

10    I think that it was an organisation, a peoples', citizens' movement that

11    didn't have any clear objectives, positions, or any direction in what it

12    wanted, other than to be a partner in relation to these other two parties.

13       Q.   Now, Mr. Micic, I don't believe there's going to be any challenge

14    or dispute about this.  One thing was clear, wasn't it, that the SDS

15    wished to preserve Bosnia and Herzegovina as part of Yugoslavia?

16       A.   Yes.  That was also the objective of my party because we were the

17    alliance of reform forces of Yugoslavia.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

19            MR. TIEGER:  Well, I'm going to request that counsel be a bit more

20    cautious about leading.  I think that's something that's been made clear

21    in the Prosecution's case.  It's a bit of a time-sensitive issue.

22    Positions and policies change over the time, so I would prefer to find out

23    from the witness what he understands about SDS positions, rather than

24    being told what an SDS position might or might not be at a particular

25    point in time and simply assenting.  I'm not suggesting any attempt, any

Page 19391

 1    inappropriate motive on counsel's part, but I would just like to urge that

 2    approach from this point forward.

 3            MR. STEWART:  Well, I don't mind, Your Honour, if I'm going to be

 4    that cautious, then Mr. Tieger might have to clear his diary for some

 5    considerable time to come.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Stewart, of course there is an issue when

 7    the witness testified that there were no clear objectives, and we are

 8    talking -- I don't know exactly what time.  And then you said -- you put a

 9    question to him to see that there's hardly dispute about -- of course

10    there could be a dispute about whether the SDS had any objectives, yes or

11    no.  I mean, that's what the witness testified, isn't it?

12            MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour, I'm in Your Honour's hands.  I

13    will be as cautious -- I said I will be as cautious as I'm required to be.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Where the witness testifies that there were no clear

15    objectives of the SDS, perhaps we could have heard from the witness

16    whether he was talking about a certain period of time.  Because this

17    question follows a long line of questioning on meetings in early 1992, and

18    therefore I think -- I would agree with Mr. Tieger that without inviting

19    you to spend days and days on it, to be especially at this point -- there

20    were good reasons for being cautious.

21            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, I will be then.  Now I see how cautious

22    I need to be, and I shall be that cautious.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed.

24            MR. STEWART:

25       Q.   At the time that you had this meeting with Dr. Karadzic, before

Page 19392

 1    the meeting, before the meeting started, did you have any idea of any

 2    essential strands of SDS party policy?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And what idea did you have?

 5       A.   I said that at the very beginning.  The HDZ and the SDA had a

 6    certain interest in the secession of Bosnia, not only of Croatia, and that

 7    would have made the job of Croatians easier.  The Serbs were not

 8    interested in the separation of the Serb people along the Drina River.

 9    There were various reasons, not only emotional, religious, and ethnic

10    ones.  The priority reasons were economic reasons, and for that reason

11    there was a plebiscite for Serbs to opt for saying in Yugoslavia.  The SDS

12    thought that Yugoslavia should be preserved in any -- within any borders

13    and that Bosnia should be kept within that Yugoslavia.  Because the

14    question was:  Why should it have not been kept in Yugoslavia since it was

15    already a civic republic of a civic state.  That was my information.  When

16    I said there were no goals, there were no objectives, I meant the specific

17    conversation that took place at the Holiday Inn hotel.

18       Q.   Now you've told Their Honours that as far as you recall this

19    meeting was in early 1992 and you mentioned March.  At the time of this

20    meeting, did you have some -- were you in a position to make some personal

21    assessment of how far momentum had been gathered towards independence of

22    Bosnia and Herzegovina?

23       A.   I believe that this was already a beginning of chaos.  Some people

24    just couldn't cope.  That's how I understood Radovan.  Radovan simply did

25    not have a clear picture as to what he should have done at the moment,

Page 19393

 1    what he was supposed to do at the moment.

 2       Q.   Did you see the SDA at that particular point as having a clear

 3    policy?  The SDA I'm talking about.

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And what did you see as their policy?

 6       A.   Their policy was to create an Islamic republic in the territory of

 7    Bosnia and Herzegovina with the help of the HDZ.  They expected that they

 8    would get that support and that they would be able to realise their goal.

 9    The basis for that was the Islamic declaration written by Alija

10    Izetbegovic.

11       Q.   Now, you said a couple of answers ago that "Radovan simply did not

12    have a clear picture as to what he should have done at the moment, what he

13    was supposed to do at the moment."

14            Did he - from what you could tell - have a clear picture about

15    anything?

16       A.   The information that could be obtained at the time from various

17    corners of the republic about reactions, names, proclamations, I don't

18    think he had a clear picture.

19            What I'm saying is that there was no project telling us what to

20    do.  I may be speaking as an engineer here, but I think that in every job

21    there should be a project, that there should be a design that guides

22    people when they have a job to do.  And this is what we were after, a

23    project, a design.

24       Q.   Did -- did what you heard from Dr. Karadzic or his colleagues at

25    that meeting match your expectations of the meeting?

Page 19394

 1       A.   I expected more.

 2       Q.   What more had you expected?

 3       A.   I thought that every serious party - and the SDS perceived itself

 4    as a serious party - should have a programme, a policy.  At the moment

 5    when we were there, we should have been told how to do things, how to

 6    remedy some things that were wrong.

 7       Q.   Did -- was this short-fall, as against your expectations,

 8    something that you communicated to Dr. Karadzic at that meeting?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   What -- what was Mr. Krajisnik's participation in the meeting?

11       A.   He kept quiet.

12            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, I'm just looking at the clock.  I think

13    it's just an hour and a half since we began.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we had a bit of a late start.  I'm just

15    wondering whether we could have one break, a bit longer, rather than two

16    breaks.  If we would continue until quarter to 5.00, then have a break of

17    35 minutes; and then to continue until 7.00, would that be agreeable for

18    the interpreters and technicians?  So have a bit of a longer break,

19    because if we take two breaks, they both have to be at least 20 minutes.

20    And this is perhaps a way of dealing with it.

21            Is there any objection from those who are assisting us?  I do not

22    hear, but I should perhaps also listen to the French and the B/C/S booth.

23            THE INTERPRETER:  No objections.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then please continue, Mr. Stewart, for another

25    seven minutes.

Page 19395

 1            MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour, we welcome that course.  Thank

 2    you.

 3       Q.   Mr. Micic, was any -- specifically any expressed at that meeting

 4    by Dr. Karadzic or any colleague of his as to their attitude towards the

 5    JNA?

 6       A.   Their attitude towards the JNA was correct and the JNA was

 7    supported.  They believed that the JNA should stay in the area because the

 8    JNA was a guarantee of peace, a guarantee that nothing would happen, a

 9    guarantee for the people.  There was a fear that once the JNA withdrew,

10    that there would be an exodus of the Serbian people.  This was discussed,

11    but we couldn't hear any concrete agreement as to how and when to organise

12    that.  The JNA could not count on any support by the SDS for doing that.

13    All that they could receive from the SDS were their good wishes.

14       Q.   Did you -- did you form any impression at that meeting as to

15    whether on any level there was any sort of agreement between the SDS

16    leadership and senior officers in the JNA?

17       A.   No.  As far as I know, the JNA officers did not respect any

18    national party.  They did that to the extent they had to.

19       Q.   Did you have, before or after that meeting, private discussion

20    with General Jankovic about what you thought might happen at the meeting

21    or, if it was afterwards, what had happened at the meeting?

22       A.   We arrived in the same car, and we did talk.

23       Q.   And you talked after the meeting as well, did you?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Was there any -- from your discussion with General Jankovic after

Page 19396

 1    the meeting, was there any difference of impression or view between you

 2    and him about the meeting?

 3       A.   There was a feeling of disappointment with the situation.  I

 4    believe that General Jankovic had expected to hear some talks about the

 5    support of the international community or that sort of discussion, but

 6    this did not happen.  And I believe that soon after that he took some

 7    measures in order to move the corps out of Tuzla.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, may I ask one clarification with the

 9    witness?

10            MR. STEWART:  Of course, Your Honour.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  One of your answers, one of yours previous answers,

12    Mr. Micic started where you said -- it just went off my screen.

13             "Their attitude," and that was the attitude of your interlocutors

14    at that meeting, Mr. Karadzic, "their attitude towards the JNA was correct

15    and the JNA was supported.  They believed that the JNA should stay in the

16    area because the JNA was a guarantee of peace, a guarantee that nothing

17    would happen, a guarantee for the people."

18            And then a few lines later you said:  "We couldn't hear any

19    concrete agreement as to how and when to organise that."

20            I don't understand that to be, but please correct me when I

21    understood you wrong, to organise that the JNA would stay where they were

22    in order to avoid an exodus of the Serbian people.

23            And then you continue to say:  "The JNA could not count on any

24    support by the SDS for doing that.  All that they could receive from the

25    SDS were their good wishes."

Page 19397

 1            Now, the beginning of your answer very much suggests that the

 2    people you were talking with were very much in support of the JNA staying

 3    there, being a guarantee for peace.  And at the end of your answer you

 4    say:  "They could -- the JNA could not count on any support."

 5            How do I have to understand these two portions of your answer?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as your question is

 7    concerned, the JNA was a -- an army of mixed composition consisting of the

 8    three peoples.

 9            As I already said, Alija wanted the foot-soldiers to leave the

10    JNA; the officers remained.  All the colonels of Muslim and Croat ethnic

11    remained in the Tuzla corps.  We believed that a multi-ethnic army is the

12    only one that could guarantee peace.  A mono-ethnic army or any newly

13    formed army could not have done that.  And as to your question why only

14    good wishes, for an army requires logistics not just verbal support by

15    somebody in the Assembly, if I have understood your question well.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, not really.  Of course, I did not expect the

17    Assembly to provide for the logistics.

18            But in the beginning of your answer it sounds as if the --

19    Mr. Karadzic was in favour of the JNA staying, and the second part of your

20    answer you said the JNA could not count on any support by the SDS for

21    doing that, which, as I understand, was - but please correct me when my

22    understanding is wrong - to avoid that by withdrawing they would cause an

23    exodus of the Serbian people.

24            So the beginning of your answer seems to express support by

25    Dr. Karadzic; the second part of your answer - and that's confirmed in one

Page 19398

 1    of your later answers - seems that the JNA could not count on the support.

 2    I have some difficulties to combine these two answers -- two parts of your

 3    answer.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The SDS policy was to absolutely

 5    support Yugoslavia, and with that to the Yugoslav People's Army.  When

 6    Alija published his declaration, when the Patriotic League was formed,

 7    there was an objective danger that there would be a conflict between these

 8    two militaries.  We thought that we should receive a programme, a

 9    position, that would be our guideline as to where, how, and on what places

10    we could count on because this corps covered the entire north-eastern

11    Bosnia.  We were not satisfied only with a programme.  We wanted to know

12    exactly what municipalities should be the future locations where the JNA

13    could withdraw.  Those were our thoughts, but we did not get any thoughts

14    in return from Dr. Karadzic.  And this is the support that was missing,

15    that was not there.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  So I do understand that where you got a kind of a

17    general political support, that Dr. Karadzic failed to give - from what I

18    understand - you expected, to give more concrete support to say, well,

19    this is to be done; that's where we go, you have to go; and to find a kind

20    of -- well, to say a kind of plan on the role of the JNA in those areas

21    rather than general political support.  Is that a correct understanding?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  What did you expect Dr. Karadzic could have done?  I

24    mean, your expectations were not just general political support.  Did you

25    think that Dr. Karadzic had the means to give the logistical, tactical

Page 19399

 1    guidance you were seeking?

 2            THE WITNESS: We knew he didn’t because he didn’t

 3    have any role in the government. He was the president of the party. He

 4    wasn’t even a member of the Presidency; I don’t think he had any power.

 5    We simply tried to obtain some information, any sort of information, so as

 6    to be able to draw up our own plans and programmes.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  How could you be disappointed if you said he

 8    was just a member of parliament and was really not even a member of

 9    Presidency?  You addressed him.  You didn't got what you were seeking; you

10    were disappointed.  How could you be disappointed if he had not been in a

11    position where he could have given you what you expected?  I mean, I'm

12    trying to understand your testimony.

13            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, may I say, we do believe, and

14    Mr. Sladojevic confesses that there is some sort of mistranslation on the

15    transcript and the answer that begins "we knew he did not have any such

16    thing."  It seemed to me, actually, just on the sense of it there might

17    be.  Mr. Sladojevic, with the linguistic advantage, says that he believes

18    there was.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please sort that out then during the next

20    break to see what problem there is and inform the Chamber in such a way

21    that it doesn't give any clue to the witness --

22            MR. STEWART:  Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  -- on what the issue is.

24            But before doing so, I've got one other question.

25            You told us that you were seeking to get information from three

Page 19400

 1    parties and that you met with the other two, I understand SDA and HDZ,

 2    before you went to see Mr. Karadzic.  Is that correctly understood?

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  It was not me who went.  It

 4    had been agreed by the bodies of Tuzla, the president of the municipality,

 5    Selim Beslagic, was to try to talk to the MBO and the SDA.  And after that

 6    we were supposed to obtain some common information.  We were the

 7    opposition, and information was not given readily to us.  And that's why

 8    we tried to obtain that information, and that's how we operated.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you say -- but let me just try to be sure

10    that I fully understood you.  You say:  "It wasn't me who went," so that

11    means that you didn't go to the SDA, you didn't -- you did not attend a

12    meeting with the SDA or a meeting with the HDZ to --

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.  That's correct.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So where the question was, page 27,

15    line 25:  "Did you at any other occasion hold meetings with any other

16    representatives of any other political parties in Sarajevo in connection

17    with the concerns you have indicated?"

18            You answered:  "Yes."

19            And then you said:  "Before or after the meeting with

20    Dr. Karadzic?

21             "Before."

22            Do I have to understand this that you didn't have meetings with

23    the other parties but, well, let's say, other people from Tuzla more

24    affiliated with SDA would have meetings with the SDA, and others more

25    affiliated with the HDZ would meet with the HDZ people?

Page 19401

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand the question in

 2    that way.  I didn't understand that you were focussed on that meeting with

 3    three ethnic parties.  The way I understood it was whether at any time I

 4    was at a meeting with these parties, and I said yes.  I was in the

 5    government building when I tried to keep the chiefs of the SUP.  Those two

 6    things have nothing to do with each other.  The Defence counsel did not

 7    ask me why I went to those meeting [as interpreted]; he only asked me if I

 8    went, and I said that I did go to these meetings.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You earlier -- talking about these meetings,

10    you said:  "We tried to see what their positions were," and you were

11    talking about the national parties, "what they were thinking."

12            Later on you testified about your meeting with Dr. Karadzic and

13    you said that meetings with the two other parties were held before that.

14    Now, did you participate in these two other meetings with, I take it, the

15    two other parties being SDA and HDZ, before you had a meeting with

16    Dr. Karadzic?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  You did not.  Have you information about these

19    meetings?  Who went to these other parties?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Meetings with the SDA and the MBO,

21    it was to be the then-president of the municipality, Selim Beslagic.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Now, was General Jankovic also present during those

23    meetings which you did not attend with the other parties?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I did understand that you in Tuzla were trying

Page 19402

 1    to find out the positions of the other parties.  The two others go

 2    there -- well, perhaps not alone, but were they accompanied by any JNA

 3    officer?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so -- actually, I

 5    don't know.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Why was the meeting with the SDS not [sic] a meeting

 7    with a Tuzla Serbian official together with a JNA officer, whereas the

 8    other two went to their national parties without someone from the JNA

 9    being present?

10            MR. STEWART:  Sorry, is there a wrong "not" in that answer, Your

11    Honour, line 7.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just read again.  The "not" is wrong, I think.

13            MR. STEWART:  That's what I had in mind, Your Honour, yes.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  I apologise.

15            So my question -- and it was -- I must have made a mistake.

16    Why -- let's keep it simple.

17            Why did the others go to their national parties without a JNA

18    officer?  And why did you go to the SDS with a JNA officer?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The SDS supported the Yugoslav

20    variant of Bosnia and Herzegovina and it supported the JNA, whereas the

21    HDZ and the SDA were opposed to both.  So it would have been pointless to

22    have a JNA officer attending a meeting where he would not have been

23    welcome.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for those answers.

25            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Just one question.

Page 19403

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Do we still have enough tape for one more question?

 2    If not, I'd like to hear from you.

 3            Yes, please proceed.

 4            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Sir, you just said that the JNA

 5    was a -- was to be multi-ethnic in order to maintain the safety of the

 6    inhabitants.  Is that correct?

 7            THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

 8            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So were you expecting that

 9    Mr. Karadzic shares that point of view?  Did you expect him to say that he

10    was also absolutely convinced that the JNA should be multi-ethnical [as

11    interpreted]?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no dispute about that.

13            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Did he contest it?

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He advocated that, a multi-party

15    army, an army of all citizens, that is.

16            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll now have a break until 5.35.

18                          --- Recess taken at 5.01 p.m.

19                          --- On resuming at 5.39 p.m.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to make one observation

21    in relation to scheduling this week.  The Chamber is considering to sit on

22    Thursday, both morning and afternoon, and then we have of course a bit

23    shorter sessions because we can't have ten hours.  We then hope that we'll

24    finish with both witnesses of this week by Thursday.  If not, then

25    Rule 15 bis might apply.  That means that since I will not be available

Page 19404

 1    for urgent personal reasons next Friday, the two other Judges will then

 2    decide whether to sit, the two of them, it will only be one day, and not

 3    more, and I think it's limited to five days.  So that's what the Chamber

 4    is considering.  If, especially, the Thursday would cause great problems,

 5    then of course the Chamber would like to know before taking a final

 6    decision.

 7                          [Defence counsel confer]

 8            MR. STEWART:  Could I just say on that point, Your Honour, we --

 9    if we may, we'd like to take it under advisement, as they say, and discuss

10    it.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Certainly --

12            MR. STEWART:  We're not inclined to be obstructive, Your Honour,

13    but we would like the opportunity of --

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand, of course.  But then at least

15    you know what the Chamber has on its mind.

16            MR. STEWART:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  And of a course a decision would be taken relatively

18    soon.

19            Then please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

20            MR. STEWART:  Yes, Your Honour.  So far as that translation point

21    was concerned, it turned out to be procedurally a little bit more

22    difficult to sort out than one perhaps expected.  But I understand that if

23    I issue an invitation, I think, to the interpreter's booth to help us on

24    that, it was at page 39, line 3, was where the answer began.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is there any page 33 -- it might be difficult

Page 19405

 1    for the interpreters to verify or to consider whether, as usually is case,

 2    gave the perfect translation, but of course now and then it's a human job.

 3    But then of course it might be difficult for them to do that if they have

 4    not heard the original again.  So therefore, I would say if the

 5    interpreters -- you said page 33, line --

 6            MR. STEWART:  39.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  39, I'm sorry.

 8            MR. STEWART:  I'm sorry, if I said --

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  No, perhaps I made the mistake.

10            MR. STEWART:  Page 39, line 3 was where the relevant answer

11    started and the particular point was on the next line then.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It now reads at this moment:  "We knew he did

13    not have any such thing.  He was not anything in the party; he was just a

14    member of parliament."

15            That's the lines you're referring to, Mr. Stewart?

16            MR. STEWART:  Yes, Your Honour.  And I think Your Honour can see

17    how applied to that particular person, at least a question arises.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If the interpreters could safely on their

19    recollection, on their recollection of what was said in the original, tell

20    us whether there could be any doubt on the correctness of the

21    interpretation, they're invited to do so.  Otherwise, we'll see that the

22    original portion of the audiotape is reproduced in such a way that the

23    interpreters can, with that in their mind, give the answers to the

24    questions put to them.

25            May I hear from the interpretation -- from the interpreters.

Page 19406

 1            THE INTERPRETER:  There may have been a misunderstanding, but the

 2    interpreter cannot remember the exact words that the witness used.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll have to find the original audiotape

 4    and see whether there's any mistake.  We will sit tomorrow in the

 5    afternoon.  I'm quite confident that it could be done tomorrow in the

 6    morning.  We have now clearly identified which portion it is, so therefore

 7    I think we can clarify the matter tomorrow in the afternoon.

 8            MR. STEWART:  Yes, it's certainly not urgent now for today, Your

 9    Honour.  That's entirely satisfactory.  Thank you.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

11            MR. STEWART:  Excuse me.

12       Q.   Mr. Micic, was there -- was there any expression of expectation by

13    Dr. Karadzic or his colleagues at that meeting in 1992 as to what the army

14    might be imminently going to do?

15       A.   I think not.

16       Q.   Was there any -- first of all, let me ask you this:  The -- can

17    you say with confidence whether this meeting with Dr. Karadzic that you've

18    described was before or after the European Union recognition of the

19    independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20       A.   It was after the Serb deputies left the Assembly, the joint

21    Assembly, in any case and on the declaration of the memorandum on the

22    independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina by the Muslim and Croat delegates

23    of the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I couldn't really say whether

24    it was before or after recognition.  I think that it was before

25    recognition, but I'm not sure.

Page 19407

 1       Q.   The -- was there any discussion at that meeting with Dr. Karadzic

 2    about ethnic division of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 3       A.   No.  There was no discussion about the ethnic division of Bosnia

 4    and Herzegovina.

 5       Q.   Was there any discussion about any imminent risk of violence and

 6    conflict?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   What was the nature of that discussion?

 9       A.   The arming of a part of the Muslim population by the Muslim

10    Patriotic League and the police reserve was discussed.

11       Q.   Can you say who raised that topic?

12       A.   The topic was raised by General Jankovic.  He had information,

13    probably through his intelligence service.

14       Q.   And what information did he have?

15       A.   Well, I couldn't say.  But he did assert that certain groups of

16    people were arming themselves and that preparations were being made.

17       Q.   Was there any reaction from Dr. Karadzic and his colleagues to

18    what General Jankovic said on that topic?

19       A.   I think that they knew about that.

20       Q.   Now, by the time you had this meeting with Dr. Karadzic, had you

21    personally become a member of the Serb Assembly?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And had you already attended at least one meeting, a session, of

24    that Assembly?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 19408

 1       Q.   Were there any significant differences of view within the SDS as

 2    to the developing difficulties between the SDS on the one hand and the

 3    SDA/HDZ on the other?

 4       A.   I don't understand the question.

 5       Q.   I'll slightly rephrase it, Mr. Micic.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you include the source of knowledge from what

 7    happened within the SDS?

 8            MR. STEWART:  Yes, I -- it may be covered by my rephrasing of this

 9    question.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11            MR. STEWART:

12       Q.   From what you were able to observe within the Bosnian Serb

13    Assembly, Mr. Micic, did it appear that there were any significant

14    differences of view among the SDS deputies in that Assembly as to the

15    developing difficulties between the SDS on the one hand and the SDA and

16    HDZ on the other?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Did the -- who appeared, if anybody, to lead the views and

19    policies of the SDS deputies and the Bosnian Serb Assembly?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Yes.  You -- there was nobody who clearly led those views and

22    policies.  Is that --

23            MR. TIEGER:  Well, that's -- when a question is asked that doesn't

24    call for a yes or no question [sic], it may have simply been

25    misunderstood.  I don't think it's an invitation to a leading question.

Page 19409

 1            MR. STEWART:  Yes, well I accept that, Your Honour.  I'm trying to

 2    steer the line to get the clarification.  If you'll allow me just to see

 3    how I might best meet Mr. Tieger's concerns.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you could meet his concerns, that would be

 5    appreciated.

 6            MR. STEWART:  That's what I'm trying to do; it would certainly be

 7    appreciated by him, Your Honour.

 8       Q.   The -- who were -- were there among the Bosnian Serb -- the SDS

 9    deputies in the Bosnian Serb Assembly, were there some who were more

10    vociferous than others?

11       A.   Well, in every Assembly you have people who talk a lot, those who

12    don't talk so much or little, but I don't think that those who are more

13    vociferous have more influence or affect the work of the Assembly more

14    just by that very fact.

15       Q.   Were there then among the deputies any that you can identify as

16    having more influence, effect, or impact in the Assembly sessions?

17       A.   I really couldn't say.  People were different in terms of who

18    could be expected to express their position more eloquently or less

19    eloquently.  But I don't really know if anybody was consistently like

20    that.  Perhaps if once they were very eloquent in explaining their point,

21    it wouldn't mean that they would always be as eloquent whenever they

22    spoke.

23       Q.   Were there in the Bosnian Serb Assembly SDS members that you can

24    identify with whom you, for practical purposes, agreed on the important

25    issues?

Page 19410

 1       A.   There were, yes.

 2       Q.   And can you, therefore, identify who those members were?

 3       A.   Mostly we had a similar position.  There were about nine of us

 4    independent deputies, from the SRS, from the League of Communists, from

 5    the Socialist Alliance, and I don't know what other party it was.  But

 6    there were a total of nine of us, and we had the same opinions and we

 7    represented the opposition in that Assembly.

 8       Q.   And in representing the opposition, were there -- and I'm

 9    focussing on the time of the meeting you described, so I'm focussing on

10    March 1992.  Were there issues and points in which you, the opposition,

11    took a different view from the prevailing view in the Assembly?

12       A.   If you're thinking about the visit, I didn't talk about the visit

13    at the Assembly.

14       Q.   Well, just to clarify, I wasn't asking about the visit; I was

15    asking about the Bosnian Serb Assembly sessions.  You've told Their

16    Honours you and your eight colleagues were the opposition, and I'm asking

17    you whether from that opposition position you took a different view on any

18    issues from the prevailing view in the Assembly?

19       A.   Yes.  Not always, but yes.

20       Q.   Can you identify any points of, in your view, significance on

21    which you took a different view?

22       A.   When we are talking about different laws that were being adopted

23    concerning the economy and the various taxes imposed by the state on the

24    economy, we viewed that differently and explained it differently.  And we

25    always sought to have a more realistic basis for such things, according to

Page 19411

 1    our views.

 2       Q.   Did you personally support the Cutileiro Plan and the Lisbon and

 3    Sarajevo agreements?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Did your eight colleagues in opposition also support those

 6    matters?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Did you have -- and I'm talking about you individually.  Did you

 9    have at that time, in March 1992, any significant difference of view from

10    Dr. Karadzic on any of the current political issues?

11       A.   The only thing I wanted was to avoid any kind of conflict.

12       Q.   Did you have proposals to make on how that could be done?

13       A.   It was difficult to suggest anything sensible or clever at that

14    time.  It was simply an attempt to seek some kind of understanding, some

15    kind of backing away or compromise.

16       Q.   As conflict emerged - and I'm talking about armed conflict in

17    April 1992 - did any differences of view emerge among the SDS deputies in

18    the Bosnian Serb Assembly?

19       A.   Yes, that's true.

20       Q.   And can you identify such differences and between whom they arose?

21       A.   There were differences in the way the situation was understood and

22    assessed.  Everybody came from a special terrain, so the situation was not

23    the same in all the areas.  It was not identical.  It wasn't even close to

24    being the same.  Some people expressed large degree of concern, some did

25    not, they were not as concerned.  So that was where the difference lay.

Page 19412

 1       Q.   Were there any significant differences as to what various

 2    deputies, SDS deputies, in the Serb Assembly suggested should be done?

 3       A.   Some were more radical, some were less radical.  But the situation

 4    on the ground was already very complicated and probably difficult.

 5            I can tell you what I know about Tuzla.  Already at that time

 6    after the recognition of Bosnia on the part of the international

 7    community, there was the situation when people were removed from all the

 8    bodies -- all the Serbs were removed from all the bodies in the

 9    municipality of Tuzla.  And that is something that tells you a lot.

10       Q.   Could we just leave Tuzla for the moment, please, Mr. Micic.  Just

11    staying with the Bosnian Serb Assembly, when you said "some were more

12    radical, some were less radical," can you be specific as to what the more

13    radical elements were saying that was different from the less radical?

14       A.   The more radical people wanted for -- wanted arms to be

15    distributed, to start armed conflicts, to seek help from outside.  The JNA

16    was still there, but they were not doing anything.  They thought that they

17    were in the garrison and they were not doing anything.  Those were the

18    requests by the radicals, for the arms to be distributed.  The others, the

19    less radical ones, were against that.

20       Q.   When you said "to seek help from outside," did you understand what

21    that meant?

22       A.   Yes, I did.  I didn't think it was important where it came from,

23    as long as it was some sort of aid.  I thought that anybody should be

24    brought in, but those ideas just did not fall on fertile ground.

25       Q.   Who did you understand who could be brought in from outside?

Page 19413

 1       A.   I remember that Mrs. Biljana Plavsic mentioned Arkan.

 2       Q.   Was Mrs. Plavsic -- she -- in what way did she mention Arkan?

 3       A.   As a man who could help Serbs.  That's the way she was thinking.

 4    I mean in military terms.

 5       Q.   Was she specific about how Arkan could help Serbs?

 6       A.   No, she was not specific.  But I remember that she kept on

 7    repeating that any kind of help from anywhere in the world, America,

 8    Australia, from volunteers, that all those were welcome.

 9       Q.   Was Mrs. Plavsic supported in these views by other members of the

10    Assembly?

11       A.   Not many.

12       Q.   Can you remember, so as to be able to identify them, anybody who

13    did clearly support Mrs. Plavsic in those views?

14       A.   I believe that those are minutes from those Assembly sessions.

15    I'm sure that they can be located.

16       Q.   I'm asking you specifically about your recollection, Mr. Micic.

17       A.   It's hard for me to say, some more, some less.  You know, it's

18    very difficult to go back in time.  It was some 14, 15 years ago, or 13

19    years ago.

20       Q.   Are you able, from your recollection, to identify members of the

21    Assembly who clearly did not support Mrs. Plavsic in those views?

22       A.   Yes.  That position was mostly supported by the people who were

23    already members of the Territorial Defence, who had already established

24    some paramilitary formations in their respective municipalities who

25    already had some armed groups of people.  They supported or had the others

Page 19414

 1    condemn her.

 2       Q.   I was asking if you could identify members of the Assembly who did

 3    not support Mrs. Plavsic in those views.  If you are able to do so, please

 4    would you do so.

 5       A.   For example, MPs from Bijeljina did not support her in her views.

 6    I believe that even MPs from Sarajevo did not support her.  Mostly MPs

 7    from Eastern Bosnia did not support her.

 8       Q.   Were there any members of the Assembly who were in the army?

 9       A.   You mean as active-service members of the JNA?

10       Q.   Yes.

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Were there any -- was there anybody present in the Assemblies

13    since, speaking was an active-service member of the JNA?

14       A.   Throughout all this time while the JNA was in Bosnia, I don't

15    remember that any members of the JNA were there.  When the Army of

16    Republika Srpska was established, then yes.

17       Q.   At that point when the Army of Serb Republic or Republika Srpska

18    was established, who then was present at Assembly sessions who was a

19    serving member of that army?

20       A.   Very often General Mladic, General Gvero as well, sometimes

21    General Talic, General Tolimir.  It all depended on the area where we

22    were.

23       Q.   Did -- do you recall General Mladic's -- an expression of views by

24    General Mladic as to how the Bosnian Serbs should proceed from that point

25    onwards?

Page 19415

 1       A.   He presented plans, the assessments of the situation, and he

 2    called for the state of war to be declared.  He often did that.

 3       Q.   Can you remember anybody who was specifically opposed to General

 4    Mladic's view on that point?

 5       A.   Opposed to the declaration of a state of war and general

 6    mobilisation, the removal of all the civilian bodies of a power was

 7    Mr. Krajisnik and also Mr. Karadzic.  They were categorically against

 8    those things, both of them.

 9       Q.   Were there any differences in Mr. Krajisnik's conduct of the

10    Presidency of the Serb Assembly as compared to the way in which he had

11    conducted the Presidency of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly?

12       A.   There was no difference.  He acted in accordance with the book of

13    rules and the constitution.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, may I just seek a clarification on the

15    subject which you seem to have left but I'd like to better understand.

16            MR. STEWART:  Of course, Your Honour.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  In one of your previous answers you told us that the

18    radicals also requested the arms to be distributed.  What exactly do you

19    mean,"arms to be distributed," by whom?  To whom?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You didn't understand me.  I did not

21    mean the radicals as a political party.  I meant those members of the

22    Assembly who had a more radical position.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes -- no, I think I fully understood you in that

24    respect.  When I was talking about radicals, I was not talking about a

25    political party, but I was talking about people who were more on the

Page 19416

 1    radical side than others.  So you said they requested for the arms to be

 2    distributed.  By whom?  To whom?

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the moment the JNA left Bosnia

 4    and Herzegovina, the depots of arms of the Territorial Defence were under

 5    the control of the army in the barracks.  They asked for those weapons.

 6    And I believe that the owner of those weapons were the municipalities or

 7    the Territorial Defence.  They wanted the army to give them that.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  But you say:  "They were under the control of the

 9    army in the barracks.  They asked for those weapons, and I believe that

10    the owner of those weapons were the municipalities."

11            So they insisted on giving the arms to the municipalities?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the Territorial Defence that was

13    in that municipality.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Irrespective of what kind of municipality that was?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those who came from those

16    municipalities who had established that there, they were the ones who

17    asked for that.  But it was common practice in the entire territory.

18    Everybody wanted arms, in the places where the Muslims were a majority,

19    where the Croats were a majority, where the Serbs were a majority.  There

20    was no difference there.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  But do I have to -- then to understand that in the

22    Serb Assembly, those who were more radical requested arms to be given to

23    municipalities where there was a Muslim majority so that the weapons would

24    become available for Muslims?  Is that what I have to understand?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.

Page 19417

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Or was it that they wanted the arms under the control

 2    of the JNA to be given to the municipality where there was a Serb

 3    majority?  Is that how I have to understand it?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everybody asked for their respective

 5    municipalities, but that was a common practice in all and every

 6    municipalities, irrespective of which municipality it was.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  I did understand you.  But I'm talking about what

 8    radicals proposed in the Bosnian Serb Assembly.  So -- and you said -- did

 9    I now understand you well that in this Bosnian Serb Assembly they were

10    asking for the weapons to be given to the municipality with a Serbian

11    majority or ...

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The request was not to be applied to

13    the entire territory of Bosnia where there was a Serb majority.  There

14    were specific requests coming from specific municipalities for a specific

15    problem.  If somebody came from Sarajevo, they made requests in respect of

16    Sarajevo.  If somebody came from Brcko, they requested something in

17    respect of Brcko.  They were not interested in any other municipality in

18    Bosnia, and this is what I call more radical people, with more radical

19    requests.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  And you used the word "distribution."  To whom would

21    they have to be distributed?  I mean handing over the control of certain

22    depots is not yet distribution.  To whom should these weapons be

23    distributed?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would have been taking out

25    weapons from under the control of the army, the weapons that were in their

Page 19418

 1    safe-keeping.  And it was to be done by the Territorial Defence of that

 2    particular municipality, and the MP coming from such a municipality would

 3    raise that issue as a specific problem of that municipality.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  I still have not fully comprehended what you meant

 5    by "distribution" then.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't mean that somebody would

 7    distribute weapons.  I don't know how the weapons would have been

 8    distributed.  In any case, their intention was to take the weapons from

 9    the garrison and the weapons that were the ownership of the Territorial

10    Defence, and that was being safeguarded by the army.  They wanted that

11    weapon -- those weapons to be taken from the control of the army.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for those answers.

13            Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

14            Judge Hanoteau has a question for you.

15            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stewart asked you this.

16            [In English] "Did you have at that time in March 1992 any

17    significant different view from Dr. Karadzic on any of the current

18    political issues?"

19            [Interpretation] And you answered:

20            [In English] "The only thing I wanted was to avoid any kind of

21    conflict."

22            [Interpretation] Does this mean that Dr. Karadzic did not share

23    your wish?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The situation on the ground was such

25    that we received constant information about the arming of people and the

Page 19419

 1    entering of weapons into Bosnia and Herzegovina from Croatia.  We knew

 2    that the Patriotic League was being armed under different names.  There

 3    were constant discussions as to what should be done once they are fully

 4    armed, and somebody said:  We will defend ourselves.  And I thought that

 5    we have had to talk, and that was the difference.

 6            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7            MR. STEWART:

 8       Q.   Mr. Micic, did you at any time in the second half of 1991 or the

 9    first three months of 1992 attend any political meetings in the Holiday

10    Inn in Sarajevo?

11            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't understand the answer.

12            MR. STEWART:

13       Q.   Perhaps you just repeat the answer into the microphone, Mr. Micic,

14    please.

15       A.   Yes, I was there.

16       Q.   On one occasion or more than one occasion?

17       A.   During that period of time, I believe I was there maybe three

18    times.

19       Q.   And what was the nature of those meetings?

20       A.   The first time the meeting was held once we had walked out of the

21    Assembly; the second time was the constituent Assembly of the Serbian

22    people; and the third meeting was a working meeting.

23       Q.   Let's take them one by one in that order then.  The -- you

24    say:  "The first time the meeting was held once we had walked out of the

25    Assembly."

Page 19420

 1            So you're meaning immediately after or very shortly after the

 2    14th, 15th of October, 1991, are you?

 3       A.   No, not immediately.  I believe that this meeting was held in the

 4    blue room in the building of the BH Assembly.  That was the hall normally

 5    used by the Council of Citizens.

 6       Q.   Seeking to clarify.  Let's just focus on your answer.  You said

 7    the first time that there was such a meeting at the Holiday Inn was

 8    once -- you said "we had walked out of the Assembly."

 9            Let's just be clear.  When you say "walked out of the Assembly" --

10       A.   Yes.  Immediately after we walked out of the Assembly, but I did

11    not consider that to be a very important meeting.  We focussed more on the

12    comments as to what they would do there.

13       Q.   I just want to be clear.  First of all, you say -- when you

14    say "immediately after we walked out of the Assembly," by talking of

15    walking out of the Assembly, do you mean the occasion on the 14th, 15th of

16    October, 1991?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   I'll move on to the second time then.  You said the second time

19    there was a meeting at the Holiday Inn that you remember attending was the

20    constituent Assembly of the Serbian people.  Now, first of all, are you

21    saying that an Assembly meeting itself was held in the Holiday Inn?

22       A.   It's very hard for me to say whether it was in the Holiday Inn or

23    in the blue room.  It was one of the two in any case.

24       Q.   But you were referring to an actual Assembly meeting, are you?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 19421

 1       Q.   And then you said the third meeting was a working meeting.  Now,

 2    before I ask you about the nature of that meeting, are you able to say

 3    when that third meeting took place?

 4       A.   I wouldn't be able to give you the exact date.

 5       Q.   Would be able to give any helpful indication as to the date, if

 6    not exact?

 7       A.   I believe it was in spring 1992.  Probably in April.  Or maybe

 8    March.

 9       Q.   And you say it was a working meeting, meaning what?  A working

10    meeting as opposed to what other sort of meeting?

11       A.   A special, as a special occasion.  There are special-occasion

12    meetings in celebration of something or a working meeting.

13       Q.   So it was a working meeting of what or whom?

14       A.   Of the Assembly of the Serbian People.

15       Q.   Held in a Holiday Inn?

16       A.   Yes, yes.

17       Q.   Have you -- in 1991 or 1992, did you ever attend any meeting in

18    the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo of a wider nature, including not only members

19    of the Assembly but others?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And what was the nature of that meeting?

22       A.   I don't remember the agenda.  There were a lot of people at that

23    meeting.  There were a lot of guests as well.  There were also members of

24    the Main Board of the SDS who were present there.

25       Q.   Can you remember what the purpose of the meeting was?

Page 19422

 1       A.   I can't remember what the agenda was, but I believe that it was

 2    dedicated to the organisation of work of the Assembly.

 3       Q.   And can you remember who presided over that meeting?

 4       A.   The sessions were always presided over by Mr. Krajisnik.

 5       Q.   Sessions of what?

 6       A.   Of the Assembly.

 7       Q.   Did Mr. Krajisnik ever preside over any other sorts of meetings,

 8    apart from sessions of the Assembly?

 9       A.   As far as I know, there were also the Deputies' Club meetings of

10    the SDS party deputies, which he did not preside over.  But there were

11    probably other meetings that I don't know about.

12       Q.   Did you ever attend Deputies' Club meetings of the SDS party

13    deputies?

14       A.   I think that I did once or maybe twice, but very briefly.

15       Q.   And who presided?

16       A.   Vojislav Maksimovic, Professor Maksimovic.

17       Q.   Have you ever heard of a document known as Variants A and B or

18    some such similar name?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Have you ever been to a large political meeting at the Holiday Inn

21    in Sarajevo where any documentation was distributed?

22       A.   Each Assembly session -- at each Assembly session, documents were

23    distributed, so I don't remember anything in particular.  But every time

24    the Assembly discussed something, then the relevant documents were

25    distributed.

Page 19423

 1       Q.   In Tuzla --

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, before you continue --

 3            The last question put to you was:  "Have you ever been to a large

 4    political meeting at the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo where any documentation

 5    was distributed?"

 6            And then your answer was:  "Each Assembly session -- at each

 7    Assembly session, documents were distributed."

 8            Were now Assembly sessions usually held in the Holiday Inn, and do

 9    you call a large political meeting, is that an Assembly session or ... I'm

10    just trying to understand your answer in relation to the question.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not possible at the time to

12    have the deputies receive the regular or proper Assembly documents.  It

13    was -- there wasn't enough time so -- to have them given out in advance.

14    So usually what happened was that this material was given to the deputies

15    once they came to the meeting.  That's what I meant, these Assembly

16    materials.  As far as attendances at the Assembly sessions, there were

17    always many people present.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I did put two specific questions to you.

19    First:  Were Assembly sessions usually held in the Holiday Inn?  That's

20    the first one.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  My question was about a large political meeting at

23    the Holiday Inn.  Was there ever an Assembly session held in the

24    Holiday Inn in Sarajevo?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said that it was once or

Page 19424

 1    twice.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Once or twice.  And you say --

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  -- there were many others as well.  If a question is

 5    about a large political meeting, you would include in that formulation an

 6    Assembly meeting?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it cannot be understood in that

 8    way.  An Assembly meeting is an Assembly meeting, but there was no perfect

 9    discipline at the Assembly only to have sessions by deputies of the

10    Assembly.  Very often there were others present:  Certain members of the

11    Main Board who were there from the SDS or a president of the municipality,

12    somebody from the army, somebody from the clergy.  So every time somebody

13    would be present.  So this is what I would call a meeting.  But however,

14    the Assembly sessions were also held at the same time.  The Assembly

15    sessions were conducted regardless of the presence of these other people.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  It still confuses me a bit because the question was

17    about a large political meeting, and your answer was about Assembly

18    sessions.  Now, when I ask you whether an Assembly session would be

19    something within the scope of what you understand to be a large political

20    meeting, you said:  "No, it cannot be understood in that way."

21            So you leave me with quite some confusion in this respect.  If you

22    can clarify it, please do so; otherwise, we'll proceed.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can.  No problem.

24            I said that the Assembly sessions were usually attended by certain

25    guests, whether they were from the ranks of the Main Board of the SDS or

Page 19425

 1    if they were from the area where the Assembly session was being held.

 2    There was always somebody from the Orthodox church clergy present also.

 3    There were also people who were there.  I mean, I don't know all the

 4    people who would come inside.  They were sitting there.  But as far as I

 5    was concerned, it wasn't an organised political meeting of the type THAT

 6    you are thinking of.  It was an Assembly where anybody, practically, could

 7    walk in.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I wasn't thinking about anything.  It was part

 9    of the question put to you by Mr. Stewart.

10            But let's proceed, Mr. Stewart, please.

11            MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12       Q.   Mr. Micic, you told Their Honours earlier today that after the

13    1990 elections, November 1990, it was your party and the League of

14    Communists who were in control of Tuzla.  That was what you've already

15    said.  Did that change subsequently?

16       A.   Yes, it did change, quite radically as a matter of fact.

17       Q.   When did that change occur?

18       A.   The changes occurred after the declaration on the independence of

19    Bosnia and Herzegovina was adopted, and in particular after the

20    international community's recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21       Q.   And -- well, we -- do you remember when that was, the

22    international community's recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

23       A.   I think that it was in late March or early April 1992, but I'm not

24    sure.  The declaration on an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina was voted

25    on the 14th and 15th of November.

Page 19426

 1       Q.   The -- so you told Their Honours that the changes occurred

 2    particularly after the international community's recognition of Bosnia and

 3    Herzegovina, but also you said "after the declaration on the

 4    independence."

 5            When did -- let's start with when did significant changes first

 6    occur in Tuzla?

 7       A.   Right after the declaration on an independent autonomous Bosnia

 8    and Herzegovina was voted on.  There was certain shifts in the thinking of

 9    people who were in power at the time.  At that point, the Municipal

10    Assembly of Tuzla also had its own National Defence Councils, and there

11    were only Muslims in these councils.  And it was my fault, perhaps, that

12    this happened like that.  There wasn't a single Croat in them even.  Then

13    the chief of the Tuzla region internal affairs department was replaced.

14    Also some judges of the municipal and the higher court in Tuzla were also

15    replaced.  And then it went on like in a chain reaction to encompass the

16    professors at schools, at universities, and then also in the town's

17    clinics, because Tuzla was a university town.  Even the dean of the

18    university, who was with us at the SRS, very quickly moved to the SDA and

19    became a prominent member of the SDA.

20       Q.   You've said that the -- it went on like in a chain reaction to

21    encompass the professors at schools, at universities, and then you

22    referred to the university.  What happened and when in relation to the

23    university?

24       A.   These professors were replaced.  There was also a boycott of

25    certain professors.  The students conducted this boycott.  A known case or

Page 19427

 1    an example of that was that in the hospitals if there was a Serb who was a

 2    prominent professor, and Bozidar Radovic was one of these people.  He was

 3    a very reputable world medical expert.  He also had some uncomfortable

 4    situations.  For example, if he went in to see a woman patient, she said:

 5    I don't want to be examined by a Vlah, a Serb.  That was the term used.

 6            It was an attack or an assault on everything that was Serb, even

 7    though this professor, Radovic, was somebody who enjoyed a very high

 8    reputation in Tuzla before that.

 9       Q.   And when did this occur?

10       A.   This began in late 1991 and early 1992.  The parties -- so that

11    you understand.  The Tuzla municipality was actually in the hands, in the

12    talons of the region, the regional board of Tuzla, and the Tuzla regional

13    board was under the control of the SDA.  So according to the party

14    affiliation, the professors, the judges, were replaced because this was

15    taken to be one of the rights of the party.  And that's when many of them

16    left, not only the SUP, not only did the Serbs leave, but many Muslims

17    also left, those who did not accept membership of the SDA.  They, too,

18    were driven away from their posts.

19       Q.   Now, you've referred to Serbs leaving.  Can you indicate to Their

20    Honours what scale of Serbs leaving do you recall?

21       A.   Well, you cannot talk about a mass exodus, such as the one from

22    the territory of Croatia where there was an armed conflict.  It was just a

23    question of a slow tide.  Every day people were leaving Tuzla.  They were

24    going in all directions, and I assert that out of 20.000 Serbs and about

25    20.000 Yugoslavs, on the 15th of May when there was a settling of accounts

Page 19428

 1    with the Yugoslav People's Army, there weren't more than 4.000, both Serbs

 2    and Yugoslavs, left in Tuzla at that time.  Now I don't think that there

 3    are any of them left in Tuzla now.  They just simply left town and I was

 4    among them.

 5       Q.   Can I just clarify.  You say "there weren't more than 4.000, both

 6    Serbs and Yugoslavs, left in Tuzla at that time."

 7            Do you mean 4.000 Serbs and 4.000 Yugoslavs?  Or 4.000 altogether,

 8    embracing both Serbs and Yugoslavs?

 9       A.   I cannot really tell you the exact number for the Yugoslavs, but

10    the Yugoslavs included a smaller number of also Muslims and Croats.  After

11    Yugoslavia was abolished, this term "Yugoslav" also disappeared.  So they

12    returned to their national or ethnic core.  In Tuzla, after the 15th of

13    May, not more than 4.000 Yugoslavs and Serbs remained living in Tuzla.

14    This is after the 15th of May, 1991.

15       Q.   We haven't quite --

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

17            MR. STEWART:  I was going to say, Your Honour, we haven't quite

18    cleared up the point.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  No.

20            MR. STEWART:

21       Q.   Mr. Micic.  I'm just seeking clarification of your answer.  When

22    you talk about 4.000 Yugoslav and Serbs, do you mean -- you said you can't

23    be precise.  But are you talking about 4.000 Yugoslavs and 4.000 Serbs, or

24    are you talking about 4.000 altogether?

25       A.   A total of 4.000 people of Serb ethnicity that remained in Tuzla,

Page 19429

 1    regardless of whether they were from the ranks of those 20.000 who had

 2    declared themselves as Serbs or from among those who had declared

 3    themselves as Yugoslavs.  Because after the 15th of May, Tuzla became a

 4    closed environment.  The town was encircled.  It was not possible to leave

 5    after that.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, it still doesn't seem to answer your

 7    question directly.  May I give it another effort.

 8            The 4.000 remaining, would that -- I do understand there were

 9    Serbs remaining.  The number of 4.000, did that also include those who had

10    declared themselves Yugoslavs?

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.  Yes.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  So I take it, then, that we have a single number of

13    4.000.

14            I would seek some clarification of one of your previous answers as

15    well.  You said that professors were replaced.  And then you continued in

16    your answer describing how, for example, Professor Radovic felt quite

17    uncomfortable in those circumstances, and you were talking about boycotts

18    by students and patients not wishing to be examined by a professor.

19    Replacing - but please disagree with me if you have a different

20    understanding of that word - is to put someone in the place previously

21    occupied by another.  It is ambiguous to the extent that you either take

22    one person from a position and put another there or that someone feels

23    very uncomfortable in the position, leaves, and that you fill in the

24    vacancy which you have not explicitly created yourself, although it may

25    have been under the circumstances that one could expect someone to leave.

Page 19430

 1            Now, when you are talking about replacement, are you talking about

 2    some people leaving in the circumstances you described which are

 3    characterised by being very unpleasant for the person and then the vacancy

 4    re-filled, or were professors or the others you mentioned, were they just

 5    fired and then replaced by someone else?  Perhaps you could start with the

 6    example of Professor Radovic.  Was he fired or did he leave under the

 7    circumstances that you described and was then replaced by someone else?

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will start from the regional SUP.

 9    As soon as the regional SUP chief was replaced, automatically all the

10    others in the SUP were replaced who were not loyal to the SDA, regardless

11    of whether they were Serbs, Muslims, or Croats.

12            As far as Professor Radovic is concerned --

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there because you do not answer my

14    question.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I will.  I will tell you.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  The regional SUP chief, was he fired and then

17    replaced by someone else or did he --

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  That's a clear answer.

20            Those others you said who are automatically replaced because they

21    were not loyal to the SDA, were they fired and then replaced or did they

22    leave and then --

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  They were fired.  Okay.

25            Now we come to Professor Radovic.  Same question.

Page 19431

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Professor Radovic was not dismissed.

 2    He was the chief of the clinic, and he was replaced as the head of the

 3    clinic, and he continued to work as a regular surgeon.

 4            As far as the university is concerned, simply the university

 5    council or board voted someone else to replace these people from their

 6    posts.  They didn't dismiss them, but they just replaced them.  So there

 7    were also cases where these people who had been replaced felt in danger,

 8    so they would leave Tuzla for a day or two until things settled down a

 9    bit, but then as soon as they were away from Tuzla for two or three days,

10    then they would be dismissed from their job.  So that's basically the

11    situation.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.  Oh, just Hanoteau

13    whispers in my ear that he has a question as well.

14            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Precisely regarding that exodus

15    of Serbs and Yugoslavs, how do you explain it?  Did it occur after this

16    institutional violence or were there any other violences?  And by

17    institutional violences, I mean this obligation to leave, to change their

18    employment, or was this something else?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You cannot just look at one element

20    as a key element in that period.  There were checkpoints set up --

21            JUDGE HANOTEAU:  An element?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Checkpoints were set up, and these

23    checkpoints were set up in the town itself.  So if you wanted to defend

24    Tuzla, then the checkpoints should have been set up on the outskirts of

25    the Tuzla municipality.  But they were placed in the neighbourhoods where

Page 19432

 1    the Muslims were a majority and they were facing the neighbourhoods where

 2    the Serbs were the majority population.  There was constant harassment

 3    also.  At the time, I enjoyed immunity.  And from my apartment to my place

 4    of work, they were about three kilometres apart, and I would have to pass

 5    through four checkpoints.  If I came back within a very short period of

 6    time, I would still have to go back through all of those checkpoints.  If

 7    I returned home, I would have to go through the checkpoint that was

 8    located in my building.  So this is what the atmosphere was like, and

 9    people began to feel afraid.  So one by one they simply fled, they left,

10    and then also on top of that when you had dismissals from their posts.

11    All the posts that were of a regional significance were automatically

12    purged of the Serb population.

13            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Those checkpoints were manned by

14    whom exactly?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were manned by the Patriotic

16    League.  It -- they were not wearing the sign or the insignia of the lily,

17    but they were using the Tuzla coat of arms.  And by using that Tuzla coat

18    of arms, they were trying to conceal their real name.  And they were part

19    of the broader forces of the Tuzla MUP.  And I mentioned him earlier,

20    Mehmed Bajric, was the one who led that particular group.  I mentioned

21    that he went to the SDA in order to remain at this post.  Later he even

22    became the president of the SDA.

23            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And, Witness, how can you tell

24    with certainty that these people were people from the Patriotic League if

25    they wore different uniforms?

Page 19433

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were the same uniforms; it was

 2    just a question of different insignia.  Those same people from that same

 3    league attacked the column of soldiers that was leaving Tuzla on the

 4    15th of May, and they killed approximately 200 people.  According to some,

 5    it was 80 people; and according to others, it was 200; according to

 6    information of the medical centre, it was 204; however, the exact number

 7    was never established.  But these are the same people.  Even today that

 8    day is celebrated as the day of independence.  Independence from what?  I

 9    don't know.

10            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, we interrupted the flow of evidence.

12    There are three minutes left.  If you can deal with any subject in three

13    minutes, fine; if not, then perhaps it's better to stop for the day and

14    adjourn.

15            MR. STEWART:  Yes, Your Honour, there's a couple of small points

16    which would be useful just to sweep up.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18            MR. STEWART:

19       Q.   The name of the regional police chief that you said was replaced

20    was what?

21       A.   Budimir Nikolic.

22       Q.   And the checkpoints about which His Honour Judge Hanoteau has just

23    been asking you, when did they first appear?

24       A.   They appeared right at the start, I think already in November

25    1991, with the idea of forming an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina and

Page 19434

 1    passing a vote on that through the Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly and

 2    along with some ideas that the local SDS had.  And they had some

 3    aspirations in relation to Tuzla.  So that's where these disputes arose,

 4    but I really don't know what the substance or the essence of the disputes

 5    actually was.

 6            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, those were the couple of points I

 7    wanted to clear up now.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

 9            Mr. Micic, we'll finish for the day.  I would like to instruct you

10    that you should not speak with anyone about the testimony you have given

11    today and you're still about to give in the days to come.  We'd like to

12    see you back tomorrow in this same courtroom at a -- in Courtroom I at a

13    quarter past 2.00.

14            Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Micic out of the

15    courtroom.

16            Mr. Stewart, it has turned out to be now and then useful to

17    inquire into the estimate given by the Defence on how much time they would

18    need for the examination-in-chief.

19                          [The witness stands down]

20            JUDGE ORIE:  For this witness I think it was scheduled for six

21    hours.  Are you going to need those six hours?  We had a short day today.

22            MR. STEWART:  I probably would need -- well, yes, or near enough,

23    Your Honour.  Yes.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that certainly assists us in knowing

25    what's -- so that would take approximately the whole of tomorrow?

Page 19435

 1            MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour, I'm going to do my best

 2    overnight, as I think we always do on both sides, to see what I can pare

 3    down in the light of today.  But I can't be overly optimistic at the

 4    moment.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  It's your time, it's your witness.  So

 6    then --

 7            MR. STEWART:  I believe, Your Honour, I've had -- we started just

 8    after 3.00 today.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  You've spent only two hours and 15 minutes

10    until now.  So it's not any kind of criticism, but just for us to know.

11            MR. STEWART:  I certainly don't want to be too pessimistic.  Your

12    Honour said that take approximately the whole of tomorrow.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One day in court gives an effective four hours

14    of examination-in-chief.  And if you have estimated this witness for six

15    hours, then after two and a quarter, there remains three and

16    three-quarters to go, and that's close to four hours.

17            MR. STEWART:  I was taking a positive view, Your Honour.  I

18    wouldn't be taking the whole of tomorrow.  I was trying to be encouraging.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, it's fine.  As I started these words that

20    it's -- that it has turned now and then out to be useful to inquire into

21    the estimate given.

22            MR. STEWART:  Indeed.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

24            MR. TIEGER:  Mr. Stewart's just trying to show he's sort of the

25    glass-is-half-full kind of guy.

Page 19436

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2            MR. TIEGER:  If there's 15 minutes left in the session, he hasn't

 3    used he whole thing, as I understand it.

 4            MR. STEWART:  Well, I am that kind of guy, Your Honour, so --

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Let's not start.  I always wish there to be glasses

 6    with one-quarter on the top empty and one-quarter on the bottom, but

 7    unfortunately they do not exist.  So, therefore, the half-full or the

 8    half-empty is -- is our fate.

 9            So we will adjourn until tomorrow, Courtroom I, quarter past 2.00.

10                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

11                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of

12                          December, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.