Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21453

1 Thursday, 16 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

9 Mr. Tieger, you asked to address the Chamber.

10 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, very briefly. In connection with

11 the Court's inquiry into the Nielsen materials and requests that the

12 parties confer in an attempt to resolve that, I spoke with Mr. Stewart

13 this morning, advised him that the Prosecution had prepared two binders,

14 one containing, A, reports to the Presidency; B, reports to the

15 government; and C, daily bulletins, referring to mopping-up or detention

16 facilities; and another binder which contained all the additional daily

17 bulletins. Because of his schedule, Mr. Stewart and I were unable to

18 confer personally but by telephone, but he was making arrangements to pick

19 up the binders to -- for the purpose of viewing them. And I indicated to

20 him I would advise the Court of our discussion and the status of our

21 efforts.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I looked again in the transcript of

23 what we said about this material, and I think at that time we said that if

24 one of the parties would like to -- to introduce this material, that of

25 course the Chamber would -- would accept that but not necessarily ask for

Page 21454

1 it at that moment. The Chamber feels some need to - as we always try to

2 do - to find an objective basis which allows us to verify conclusions

3 because very often conclusions are thought -- until now the Defence has

4 not asked for it, so that suggests that the Defence was satisfied with the

5 conclusions, at least that they did not ask for any further material to

6 verify that. The Chamber is not saying that it will go through all of

7 this material, but just to have at least an opportunity to check whether

8 the type of material justifies the conclusions drawn.

9 The Chamber will wait and see what the results of your further

10 discussions are.

11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, if there's no other procedural issue,

13 Mr. Josse, I think for next Monday it's better to wait and see what

14 happens today so that we have a better impression of what pace we can keep

15 up and then see whether there's any need to further decide on Monday --

16 MR. JOSSE: I understand.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- as you suggested.

18 Yes, then, Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Radojko into

19 the courtroom.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Radojko.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

23 JUDGE ORIE: From your "dobar dan," I take it you can hear me in a

24 language you understand. Mr. Radojko, I'd like to remind you that you're

25 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

Page 21455

1 your testimony. Mr. Josse will now continue his re-examination.

2 Mr. Josse, please.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Re-examination by Mr. Josse: [Continued]

6 MR. JOSSE: Could the witness please be given P64A, binder 11,

7 footnote 189.

8 MR. TIEGER: And for ease of reference, is that one of the items

9 tabbed for this particular witness; and if so, which tab?

10 MR. JOSSE: 4. And could the witness turn to page 177 in his

11 version, page 101 in the translation.

12 Q. We see here, Mr. Radojko, your notes of the 1st of July of 1992,

13 and at some point, maybe on page 178 in your version, we see that you have

14 written: "What if they don't find anything to exchange. Two

15 possibilities: Staying, leaving without guarantees."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Josse, I'm looking, the keyboard of your

17 case manager sounds very loud in -- no, no, I don't want you to stop

18 working, but I wondered whether there was a microphone open closer to the

19 keyboard.

20 MR. JOSSE: No, I've got the -- I'm using the one furthest away.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, Mr. Karganovic, if you would put your

22 earphones on, you would hear how loud it approximately is. But I do not

23 want you to -- perhaps another place would -- okay. Please proceed.


25 Q. Do you have the passage I'm referring to, Mr. Radojko?

Page 21456

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then it goes on and says: "Attitude of the authorities: They

3 do not want an ethnically pure area, but the pressures are strong."

4 Which authorities are you referring to there?

5 A. What they're talking about here are the local authorities. I

6 don't know which other authorities this could refer to. The notes partly

7 served as a reminder to me because somebody mentioned Jasna Karanovic in

8 connection with Zecevic and I recall that this Zecevic was an Ustasha, and

9 it says here: "Rajko will send her over." And I recall the problems

10 which had to do with the exchanges. I kept drawing their attention to the

11 fact that this could entail a series of legal issues and that this should

12 not be done chaotically.

13 Secondly, it says here: "Contracts. Legal validity, validity of

14 legal basis," and I said that -- this refers to the fact that I was

15 drawing their attention to the fact that there were no legal bases for

16 that and that people being sent for exchanges. This was a framework that

17 was already problematic at the time and it was not to be implemented.

18 This -- it says here: "We don't want an ethnically clean area, but the

19 pressure is strong." Probably the president told me what the reason was

20 behind such a request.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Zecevic was not an

22 Ustasha; rather a Muslim.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible that I ought to have

24 presented the problem to the representatives of the Muslim community

25 because it says here that the Muslim community should be contacted on the

Page 21457

1 issue of their property and so on and so forth. And I was probably, by

2 making these notes, trying to prepare myself for this job.


4 Q. And when it refers to "pressures are strong," what is that a

5 reference to?

6 A. This was common knowledge. The pressure came - I'm not sure

7 whether it was the members of the army who exerted pressure - but it was

8 the representative of the command who kept telling us that they did not

9 want -- that the Muslims did not want to become members of the army, that

10 they did not wish to have them there, and this was the sort of pressure

11 that existed. We had various ad hoc delegations arriving at the

12 municipality because probably several members of a military unit, five,

13 six, or seven, would form a group and then approach the president, telling

14 him that they would not allow for the situation to continue as such, that

15 they would themselves take care of matters, and so on and so forth. And I

16 myself perceived it as pressure exerted on the local authorities. I

17 believe the others did as well. Besides, I was not the person who

18 represented the municipal authorities before these people; it was those

19 others. I was there merely as a person who would take a note or two, but

20 they were not.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I'm just -- the witness mentioned a couple

22 of times - I couldn't find that - "the validity of the contracts."

23 MR. JOSSE: I'm -- well, perhaps we -- I could make an assumption

24 and a guess --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask the witness --

Page 21458

1 MR. JOSSE: That would be far more desirable, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you -- I have not found yet the source.

3 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Radojko, the learned Judge would like to know about your

5 reference to the validity of the contracts. Is --

6 JUDGE ORIE: May I perhaps -- I read it. It says here:

7 "Contracts, legal validity, validity of legal basis."

8 I did not find that right away.


10 Q. What is that a reference to in your diary, Mr. Radojko?

11 JUDGE ORIE: But first I would like to find it. Is it on page

12 101? What page is it?

13 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, perhaps the way --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I leave it to you.


16 Q. Direct us to the reference --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I see --


19 Q. -- for that remark. Read out the words you were looking at when

20 you made that conclusion.

21 A. In my version that's on page 178 or 179 of this diary, as we call

22 it. Page 178, that's the 1st of July, 1992.

23 Q. And read out the words, please.

24 A. These are notes, and the first one reads: "Legal remedy in laesio

25 enormis."

Page 21459

1 The second one is: "Validity of legal basis."

2 The third entry: "What to do with the people who will not leave."

3 The fourth entry: "What if nothing is found for the exchange?"

4 And then there are two possibilities, that: "Someone stays or

5 leaves without any guarantees."

6 Fourth entry: "Attitude of the authorities that they don't want

7 an ethnically pure area, but the pressures are strong."

8 That's what the entries say. As far as --

9 Q. Thank you --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first -- because there was a part illegible

11 for the translators at the time.

12 You said legal remedy in case of -- and I think you say "laesio

13 enormis." Can you explain that, although it sounds, in my legal mind,

14 Latin for "major disadvantage" or "major damage."

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're right. It

16 wasn't written correctly here, though, because I -- it says, in fact,

17 "legal remedy." And I may note that there was the possibility of the

18 so-called excessive prejudice -- or rather, excessive damage, that's to

19 say, not prejudice. And that would mean more than half of damage to a

20 property is done. For instance, if someone, out of $100, loses $60, then

21 this would place him in such a disadvantageous position, and that's why a

22 contract which, let's say, regulates something like that would be invalid.

23 I wanted to point out to the fact that there were difficulties

24 with the time limits in the context of the departure of the people. I

25 wanted to draw their attention to all the possible difficulties arising

Page 21460

1 from this to the best of my knowledge. I went through all the different

2 contracts, and I felt that by first making copies of contracts and then

3 letting people to fill them out was the improper way of approaching this,

4 and I was drawing their attention to this as well.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask you: How many people signed the

6 contracts for exchange of property? Approximately how many of these

7 contracts were concluded?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't involved in this work and I

9 can't give you a precise answer. When I asked some of the people who kept

10 records there, there were between 110 and 130 of them. I seem to have

11 this figure of 130-odd in my mind, but it doesn't necessarily mean that

12 the -- this is the exact figure. Maybe this is just the feeling that I

13 have. But very soon the practice was discontinued, or maybe the persons

14 involved were no longer interested in exchanging their properties. The

15 situation changed day-in, day-out. The people from Bihac were exchanging

16 their property for other properties, and very soon they realised that the

17 property in Petrovac was not worth that much as property over there in

18 Bihac, and that's why they stopped doing it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And how many people would have donated their

20 immovable property to the municipality?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know that. I don't

22 think the numbers are high, though. Very soon people realised that such a

23 transfer of property had no legal validity, and besides, the party that

24 was taking the property into their care only assumed too much

25 responsibility upon their shoulders; that's why they stopped the practice.

Page 21461

1 In the municipal archives there must be reference numbers, and I believe

2 that if someone were to go over there and review the archives would be

3 able to find every single one of them.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Radojko, just from point of view of logic,

5 would you please respond to the following: If people would think that a

6 donation contract would be legally valid, I would expect them to be

7 hesitant to sign it because they would lose their property. As soon as

8 people realise that it's not legally valid, I would say that they have

9 less problems in signing it - isn't that logical? - whereas you seem to

10 use an opposite logic.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There wasn't that much interest on

12 either side to conclude such contracts.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking about donations. I'm not talking about

14 exchange.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, you mean donations. Well, from

16 the very start not only I but all the other lawyers pointed to their

17 deficiencies, and this wasn't something that the people didn't know about.

18 I think the overwhelming majority of people knew that this was null and

19 void, and I mean those who were donating their property. But there were,

20 of course, instances of people who reconciled with the situation, gave

21 their property away, and probably knew that this would, in time, turn out

22 to be invalid. I'm sure that they had people to turn to. There were

23 lawyers on -- among Muslims as well.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, wasn't it a bit the world upside down; the

25 Crisis Staff deciding that they should donate their property and then

Page 21462

1 people seeking advice from lawyers - I can imagine that under those

2 circumstances seeking advice from a lawyer, which isn't a pleasant thing

3 to do anyhow, that people might have had other things on their mind - and

4 then to say: We sought advice from lawyers, they tell us that it's not

5 valid anyway, so let's not sign it, where the Crisis Staff had decided

6 they had to sign it. And from this advice, they would have learned that

7 there was no risk in signing it because it would be invalid anyhow. So

8 why not meet what the Crisis Staff asked? I have some difficulties in

9 following the logic of it all.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe your understanding of the

11 logic is quite correct: The world was, in fact, upside down. We had

12 lawyers, but not those admitted to the bar, not the practicing lawyers in

13 those terms, but this was a small town.

14 Now, let me illustrate this situation. The president of the

15 Executive Board left significant property behind in Bihac, that of his and

16 his family. I drafted a contract for him on the exchange of property with

17 a man by the name Barjaktarevic who was among the people who wanted to

18 leave the area with the international assistance. On that occasion during

19 their conversation, which I was able to hear -- the name of the other man

20 is Bahtijaragic. They, as they spoke about it, knew that it was invalid

21 and were actually saying that they had the intention of taking care of one

22 other's property. All the other staff in the municipality were aware of

23 the fact this did not carry any weight. By the time they produced a

24 contract and signed it, they knew it would amount to nothing, that it

25 wouldn't have any valid meaning.

Page 21463

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You've slowly moved back to the exchange again,

2 but -- apart from that -- well, we've carefully listened to your

3 explanation. Would there be -- because I don't think, Mr. Tieger, did we

4 ever receive any contracts on exchange of property or did we just receive

5 the -- I wouldn't call it "contracts" but the declaration of donating the

6 property to the municipality?

7 MR. TIEGER: Just the latter, I believe, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Just the latter.

9 MR. JOSSE: I would --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, it would perhaps assist the Chamber to be

11 able to compare the -- even if we have no exact information about what

12 numbers of exchange contracts or what numbers of donation documents were

13 there --

14 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, when the witness said that one could find

15 examples of these today in his municipality - I'm trying to find the

16 passage but can't --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he said so --

18 MR. JOSSE: -- it crossed my mind at that point in time whether

19 that was part of the task that Mr. Harmon's investigators are undertaking

20 at this very moment.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, we asked for the other

22 type of contracts, not having been informed in a similar way about the

23 exchange. And what surprises me a bit, the witness tells us that these

24 exchange contracts, which in my first impression could have -- could have

25 contributed to a resolution of an urgent problem for those who were about

Page 21464

1 to leave and those who would stay, that I did not ab initio consider them

2 to be illegal. At least, I have no information that they were considered

3 to be without any effect and illegal.

4 MR. JOSSE: Could I say this?


6 MR. JOSSE: There is no prospect of the Defence getting hold of

7 this material, for logistical reasons, plain and simple.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you. Please proceed.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like you to go

10 back a little and look at this document again. We can read: "Attitude of

11 the authorities: They do not want an ethnically pure area but the

12 pressures are strong." I would like you to comment that again, please,

13 "but the pressures are strong." You said that the pressure came

14 primarily from the military. Could you take it a little further and could

15 you tell me what kind of pressure this was. What did the military want

16 and what was their objective?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will answer your question. I've

18 already told you that this representative of the Crisis Staff, who spoke

19 on behalf of the army, gave very firm and radical requests to that effect,

20 saying that he was speaking on behalf of the army. And he did so on

21 several occasions. First, they asked for the Muslims to be mobilised

22 because they dodged call-ups, and then there were requests for them to be

23 forced to perform work obligation. Once they wanted to use them to clear

24 up a road to facilitate passage of the army. They insisted that they be

25 given work obligation, which was like a military duty but the person would

Page 21465

1 be given civilian jobs instead. When a good many Muslims agreed to such a

2 work obligation, then the representatives said: Well, why should we be

3 the one to wage the war and risk our lives and they not?

4 So the army did not have a clear objective or strategy vis-a-vis

5 the Muslims. Then the Muslim representatives would come up and threaten

6 the municipal staff and tell us: You should mind what you're doing or

7 else we will have our say. There was this one instance when an entire

8 battalion opened fire, not at the municipal building itself but around the

9 building; and this was an entire battalion of some 700 people. And you

10 can imagine how that must have been. I wasn't away; I was in my unit at

11 the time, but I heard about the situation. Then, for instance, they would

12 enter the municipal premises armed.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] You don't answer my question.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Judge Hanoteau, would you mind speaking into the

15 microphone, please.

16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] The sentence you've written in

17 your nobody is quite clear. "They do not want an ethnically pure area,

18 but the pressures are strong," it seems to indicate that pressures are

19 strong because an ethnically pure area should be created. So this is my

20 question: Did the army, by its representatives, clearly indicate that it

21 wanted an area or part of the country to be ethnically pure? I'm not

22 talking about work or something like that which the Muslims had to

23 perform. You say: "My local authorities don't want an ethnically pure

24 area, but the pressures are strong," this seems to indicate that the

25 pressure is very strong to make sure that this ethnically pure area is

Page 21466

1 created. Was this something that was actually said in front of you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Something like that was never said,

3 but this sort of conduct where you ask people to do one thing and then

4 once they implement what you ask, then they ask you to do something else,

5 then there's no end to this. The only conclusion can be that they wanted

6 the people to be moved out of the area. That's my understanding of it.

7 This has been a long time ago, and I've been through many other things

8 since then, but that was the state of affairs. They were told to perform

9 work obligation, and then when they do, then they are again attacked.

10 They don't want to have them at home, they want them to clear the roads.

11 When they start clearing the roads, then they are exposed to threats or

12 even worse. Then the question is raised as to why they're not doing

13 anything out in the streets. You can see that they were not satisfied

14 with these people.

15 This particular note was to serve as a reminder for something to

16 be done. I don't recall now whether a document, an order was to be drawn

17 up on the basis of this or something else, but I'm simply recounting you

18 the state of affairs as it was.

19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.


21 Q. Could you next turn to page 100 -- 213, please. In the English,

22 120. We see that these are your notes of a session of the Executive

23 Committee dated the 21st of July of 1992. We see various conclusions, and

24 there are two different matters I wish to ask you about. The first

25 follows on from what you have just been giving evidence about. It says:

Page 21467

1 "Conclusion: Records of all humanitarian aid to be kept through a

2 general list in order to have an overall insight ...

3 "J. Sepa:m. no longer wish to exchange real estate. Permits for

4 moving out have not been issued ... Muslims would sign contracts only once

5 they set off from here ..."

6 What does that mean, please?

7 A. Well, I've actually answered this already. This attempt was a

8 very short-lived one, that is to say, returning properties or exchanging

9 properties, and that is why these permits for moving out were not issued,

10 because there weren't enough people interested in that. Otherwise, the

11 number that you're referring to is 66, so there weren't that many -- well,

12 not contracts but statements. Perhaps there were even less contracts than

13 statements. You see that this was done within those services there, and

14 Muslims should sign contracts only when they leave. So that is only when

15 they will sign these contracts. They don't want to sign these contracts

16 and stay there. You know, if they had signed contracts and stayed there,

17 their fate would be pretty uncertain, and they had exchanged their

18 property, on the other hand.

19 Q. The next line read: "Bogdan: Proposes police be informed about

20 every case of forceful occupation of flats ... There can be no unfounded

21 occupation of property, otherwise they have to be evicted ...

22 "Adopted as a conclusion."

23 A. Yes, there were cases that these people who had fled from Bihac

24 started entering other people's houses, Muslim houses for the most part --

25 well, most often it was Muslim houses, yes. So there would be the main

Page 21468

1 building and then another building within the same compound. Some would

2 be empty, but they would just barge in, move in. Well -- because in that

3 area there wasn't enough space for people to live in, so they also started

4 taking up Muslim businesses. They wanted to get them out of their shops

5 and they wanted to report these people who had entered their shops by

6 force to the police.

7 Q. And if you look at page 224, the 9th of August, 126 in the

8 English, we see a note of the Petrovac War Presidency, 46th Session.

9 Number 2: "Prevention of unauthorised occupation of abandoned property."

10 Is that the same point?

11 A. Yes, the same point, the same point. There were Muslim families,

12 for instance, that, for the sake of some kind of safety and security, if

13 somebody were living on their own, they'd move to live with their children

14 or relatives. And then once their apartment would be abandoned, then

15 somebody else would move into that apartment; that kind of situation.

16 Q. Could you next turn to page 236 in the original, 133 in our

17 translations, which is your note of a meeting with UNPROFOR on the 13th of

18 August of 1992.

19 A. I'm sorry, I haven't got that page, 336. Is it maybe 236?

20 Q. It is, I'm sorry. That's what I think I said. Never mind.

21 A. The 13th of August, 1992?

22 Q. Yes, Mr. Radojko, that's right. And in particular, you have a

23 long note of something that you have recorded Mr. Odobasic as saying.

24 Before we look at that, do you recall when you recorded this? In other

25 words, how contemporaneous with Mr. Odobasic saying these words did you

Page 21469

1 write them down?

2 A. I did write this down while he was talking to the UNPROFOR

3 representatives. We were at the meeting together. I recorded his

4 arguments.

5 Q. And we see that he said: "Bare existence is under threat, because

6 it is impossible to obtain foodstuffs, the rights to work and education

7 cannot be secured, nobody can guarantee security because of extremists and

8 the psychosis of war. The situation is bearable, but nobody can say with

9 certainty when it can become dangerous, afterwards it could be too

10 late ... The authorities themselves are having problems with extremists,

11 for example, when Serbian soldiers are wounded or killed.

12 "To remain in Petrovac would be a catastrophe for us.

13 "They also wish to exchange prisoners from Kamenica."

14 A. He talked about the situation as it was then, and he presented it

15 fairly. The Muslim part of our delegation had separate talks with the

16 foreign representatives. Well, probably in order for this to be, well, in

17 a way, more appropriate. Husein Odobasic is actually saying what

18 everybody was afraid of: Serbs and Muslims, if there are massive deaths,

19 then everything will break loose and what had already started will go on,

20 and that is to say general mayhem, killing, shooting, violence. You see,

21 that's what people were afraid of. He was also aware of the fact that the

22 authorities were powerless before this torrent. He knew it and other

23 members of the delegation knew it. That is why a way out was sought.

24 By the way, they actually want to have an exchange of the

25 prisoners from Kamenica. I don't know who it was that spoke about this,

Page 21470

1 perhaps it was the Muslims. There were some Muslim soldiers who had been

2 taken prison and who were in Kamenica, so this had to do with military

3 fugitives and prisoners.

4 Q. And we also see the entry which follows, which says: "For the UN

5 it is important that it is possible to meet the Muslims, representatives

6 of their authorities and their military representative in normal

7 conditions ..."

8 Was that facilitated? If so, how? When? And by who?

9 A. I made these notes for myself to convey this to the president,

10 that is to say, what the representatives of UNPROFOR had said, that it was

11 important for them to be able to have normal meetings with everyone. And

12 -- well, I mean, without forcing anyone to do anything, bringing anyone

13 to meetings by force or whatever. Well, they simply wanted to have this

14 communication, for as long as the general atmosphere was civilised.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Could we please get an idea of

16 this Captain Odobasic. Who was he?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wasn't a captain. He was just a

18 prominent citizen, but an ordinary citizen. After the Muslim leaders who

19 contributed the most to sowing this hatred between the different

20 communities, they fled to Bihac and to other destinations with the help of

21 leaders. These citizens remained at the mercy of this fire that they had

22 set. So this Odobasic appeared and it was his community that delegated

23 him to talk to the Crisis Staff and to the other representatives to see

24 what kind of solution could be found for them. He was an entrepreneur, a

25 small-scale entrepreneur. He actually had a little grocery store, so he

Page 21471

1 used to sell fruit and vegetables, things like that.

2 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Well, I'm sorry to have called

3 him "captain" but he was called "captain" on the documents I'm looking at.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It says "Philippe La Vergne,

5 Captain." This is a French captain, commander of that unit where we came.



8 Q. I'd now like you to look at page 244, the 17th of August of 1992,

9 page 137 in translation. This relates to a meeting that day with the

10 UNHCR. It mentions the military observers, French major, an English

11 major, a Russian major, and there was an interpreter. And then you set

12 out the position of those you were speaking to. Were there Muslim

13 representatives at this meeting?

14 A. I think so. As a rule, they always went to these meetings.

15 Q. And again, the note, was it contemporaneous?

16 A. I recorded their positions in order to be able to transmit them.

17 Q. I'm sure we've all read what it now says. What was your view of

18 what these negotiators, these international foreign negotiators, were

19 saying to you?

20 A. I conveyed their positions verbatim. I personally did not have

21 any objections vis-a-vis these views, although I had indicated the problem

22 involved and why people were coming. Maybe they had talked on their own;

23 I cannot remember. But at any rate, often when people like that came they

24 wanted to hear Muslims on their own. For example, if I were the only Serb

25 on a particular delegation, sometimes I would stay somewhere else and they

Page 21472

1 would talk to the Muslims only. That's the way it was in Licki Petrovac

2 [as interpreted] and perhaps in some other places, too.

3 Q. Finally, so far as this diary is concerned, on the next page, 246,

4 the 18th of August, 1992, we see a reference to five lambs. I don't think

5 we need to worry about that. It's the next entry that I'd like to ask you

6 about. It says: "Connection of one telephone Sefko or Husein Odobasic

7 (resolved by a decision of the War Presidency)."

8 Tell us about that and why that decision was made.

9 A. I've already said that -- well, when I read notes, I remember some

10 things and I said that quite a few Serb numbers were disconnected as well

11 because perhaps all of Petrovac did not have more than 1200 or 1500

12 numbers. At that time there were very few telephone lines, generally

13 speaking, so quite a few Serbs were disconnected as well. Perhaps Muslims

14 more speaking in terms of percentages, but what this is about is that

15 these people, who were sort of prominent citizens, it was people from

16 their own ethnic group who thought that they were prominent people. They

17 wanted their telephones to be turned on so they could communicate with the

18 rest of the world. These were people who by the very logic of things were

19 considered to be people who would not spread any propaganda or react

20 hysterically, so that is why this certain number of telephones was

21 connected, and then it went up. This was just for the sake of

22 communication, in order to be able to talk, things like that.

23 MR. JOSSE: If the witness could be given tab 37, please, which is

24 P90, tab 30.

25 Q. Could --

Page 21473

1 JUDGE ORIE: I am perhaps a bit slow, Mr. Josse, but I'm still --

2 I'm reading the last answer. You say: "When I read the notes, I remember

3 some things," and you said, "quite a few Serb numbers were disconnected as

4 well because perhaps all of Petrovac did not have more than 1200 or 1500

5 numbers."

6 Is my recollection well when disconnection, we saw earlier during

7 your testimony, was 800 numbers of Muslims?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said Muslims for the most part.

9 The restriction affected them to a higher degree, so in terms of

10 percentages, that's the way it was. That was the impression I had from

11 these talks. Your Honour, it is very hard for me to be very specific and

12 accurate after all this time, and you have to understand that I had just

13 arrived in that town at that time.

14 JUDGE ORIE: But I'm trying to understand, again the logic. You

15 say: "Quite a few Serb numbers were disconnected as well because perhaps

16 all of Petrovac did not have more than 1200 or 1500 numbers."

17 What -- what's the logic that quite a few Serb numbers were

18 disconnected as well because there were no more than 1200 to 1500 numbers?

19 I mean, what's -- I have difficulties in following again the logic. You

20 say "because," so there seems to be a causal relation -- at least, the one

21 follows from the other, and I'm unable to follow it. Could you please

22 explain.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain. I understand that

24 you do not realise the technical aspect involved. Well, this is what it's

25 all about -- I didn't know it either at the time. This is what it's all

Page 21474

1 about: I read these notes here, and I had forgotten that as well, so this

2 jogged my memory. Petrovac, after being switched from the Bihac to the

3 Banja Luka switchboard, telephone exchange, the entire municipality had

4 only 12 lines, that is to say that only 12 telephone conversations could

5 be taking place at one given point in time with Petrovac. And that is why

6 the number of users was severely restricted. Because if everybody had

7 remained connected, practically, those official lines that were

8 indispensable for work purposes could never have had an opportunity to

9 have their telephone conversations. The police, the military, the

10 municipal authorities and the top levels of companies and institutions had

11 access to these telephone lines. Once this was taken care of, then others

12 could use the telephone lines as well.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's not an explanation, but it's a new element

14 in the testimony of this witness.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


17 Q. The document that I hope you now have in front of you,

18 Mr. Radojko, is a report by something called the Bosanski Petrovac

19 Expatriots' Club based in Zagreb. Prior to coming to The Hague, had you

20 heard of this Expatriots' Club?

21 A. No, I hadn't heard of that before. It was during my last

22 testimony that I first heard of this, but it had become customary for

23 everybody to set up these expatriots clubs wherever they had fled.

24 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read this report?

25 A. Yes.

Page 21475

1 Q. What I want to ask you is whether, in your view, it's a fair

2 report on the events in Bosanski Petrovac from June 1992 until the

3 departure of these expatriots.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

5 MR. TIEGER: Well, it's -- it's -- counsel's certainly entitled to

6 go into it, but that aspect of the -- it was -- I don't understand the

7 nature of this question. That was asked and answered very clearly before.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I don't remember, as a matter of fact, to be quite

9 honest.

10 MR. TIEGER: It sounds like a foundational question, and that

11 foundation was covered.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then -- well, Mr. Josse, it's not in my memory,

13 but Mr. Tieger says that this has been asked and has been answered and

14 it's a foundational question --

15 MR. JOSSE: I've obviously asked the question very poorly. What I

16 wanted the witness to comment upon was whether, in his view, this is a

17 true recollection of events; whether it's accurate, whether the Court can

18 rely upon it, I suppose.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

20 MR. TIEGER: The witness can answer it again, but it was --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Can you tell me exactly when it was, Mr. Tieger?

22 MR. TIEGER: At the time the -- I mean -- you want me to find it

23 in the transcript, Your Honour? I'll try. It was certainly when I

24 brought the witness's attention to the document.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I must have missed it -- Well, the Bench

Page 21476

1 remembers --

2 MR. JOSSE: I'll move on.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we can move on.

4 MR. JOSSE: I'd like to hand out some copies of P1054. There's

5 plenty here. The witness will not be familiar with this, the Chamber and

6 my learned friend will be. It's a list of deputies attending Assembly

7 sessions.

8 Q. Mr. Radojko, as we can see, it says the numbers on the right-hand

9 side indicate the number of sessions from which the deputy was absent. I

10 would like to ask you to look at number 54, please.

11 A. I've seen this.

12 Q. Could you read out the name in number 54 slowly, please.

13 A. Number 54 is Dragan Milanovic, a deputy from Petrovac.

14 Q. Dragan Milanovic, not Milakovic. Is that correct?

15 A. You're right.

16 MR. JOSSE: I see it's been put on the ELMO, Your Honour. I've

17 got lots more copies here if anyone else need it.

18 Q. And he was the deputy from Petrovac. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did Petrovac have any other deputies?

21 A. Safet Hidic, until he left.

22 Q. He, presumably, wasn't in the Assembly of the Serb people.

23 A. Well, no, he went to Bihac and then to Zagreb even before the

24 Muslims started leaving.

25 Q. And could you read the three sessions that it appears

Page 21477

1 Mr. Milanovic was absent from.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I do understand that this is needed in the

3 common-law tradition, but if you would just have said that on that list we

4 see Dragan Milanovic - because the K is only in English and not in B/C/S -

5 being absent at the 17th, the 20th, and the 31st, then that would

6 certainly go more quickly.

7 MR. JOSSE: Thank you. Clearly the Defence wants to establish

8 that Mr. Milanovic wasn't at the 17th in particular. At the 20th --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you say, we can read this here, could you

10 confirm or not confirm if he was there or not, that takes approximately a

11 third of the time.

12 MR. JOSSE: Yes, of course.

13 JUDGE ORIE: But I do appreciate that you are following what

14 you're traditionally asked to do.

15 MR. JOSSE: What I've been taught to do.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. And now we try to dissuade you against it.

17 MR. JOSSE: I've got no other questions.


19 Mr. Tieger, any need to ...

20 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

21 Further cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

22 Q. Mr. Radojko, if I could ask you to turn once again to page 224 of

23 your diary. I'm just going to bring you back to a couple of references

24 Mr. Josse brought your attention to. And that was a reference to

25 prevention of unauthorised occupation of abandoned property from -- a

Page 21478

1 reference that appears in your diary on August 9th. Now, this is right

2 around the time that the Crisis Staff was demanding and obtaining property

3 abandonment or relinquishment certificates from Muslims, as reflected in

4 the two certificates we saw, I believe yesterday, dated August 10th.

5 Correct?

6 A. It is quite possible. I don't recall whether they tallied, but I

7 do believe that they all did from this same period. This here has to do

8 with the property of the people who already left. Many people left of

9 their own will and on their own initiative. Whoever had enough money left

10 far earlier. Some of them went to the neighbouring places, others went on

11 a convoy that had gone somewhat earlier, and there were many empty houses.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'd very much like that you answer the question

13 Mr. Tieger puts to you. The only question put to you -- whether it was a

14 necessary question, Mr. Tieger, is another matter, because the Chamber at

15 least is aware that the 10th of August is close to the 9th. But of course

16 I can imagine that you want to draw the attention of the witness to that

17 and then put a question to him.

18 MR. TIEGER: Correct.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please put the question to him.

20 MR. TIEGER: I intended to. I didn't anticipate that -- I didn't

21 attempt to elicit and didn't anticipate the lengthy answer that followed,

22 but --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then perhaps you would stop the witness if he

24 goes beyond what you asked him.

25 MR. TIEGER: Yes. I will do so, thank you, Your Honour.

Page 21479

1 Q. So I'm not focussing on the property of those who left earlier;

2 I'm focussing on the property of those leaving around that time,

3 particularly those who were obliged to give up their property permanently

4 to the Petrovac municipality. That property would have -- that was

5 property that the Crisis Staff and the municipality intended to deal with

6 and distribute on its own. Correct? That was property --

7 A. I wouldn't be able to speculate about their intentions, but if you

8 ask me whether I believe that those were their intentions, no, I don't.

9 This has to do with property that had been abandoned earlier on. Those

10 who signed the certificates remained in their houses until they left. So

11 it wasn't their houses that were barged into, but rather the houses that

12 were abandoned, that didn't have their owners around anymore.

13 Q. Mr. Radojko, as a general matter with respect to both the property

14 it -- that was the subject of the certificates we saw yesterday, that is

15 property left specifically and expressly to the municipality, and with

16 respect to any other property that might have been abandoned, the Crisis

17 Staff wanted to be in a position to make decisions about who would occupy

18 that property. Which of the incoming refugees, for example, would be able

19 to occupy it. Whether or not some property should be given to families of

20 soldiers, and so on. That was the responsibility that the Crisis Staff

21 wanted to undertake. Correct?

22 A. In that respect, yes; for the accommodation of refugees, yes.

23 Q. So it was inconsistent with that and a problem for the Crisis

24 Staff if others arbitrarily occupied those premises. Correct?

25 A. Of course it was unacceptable because some of the local residents

Page 21480

1 started occupying abandoned property.

2 Q. Let me turn next to page 220 -- 236, excuse me, of your

3 translation; page 133 of the English translation. That's the diary entry

4 of August 13th to which Mr. Josse directed your attention; the meeting

5 with the French captain, Odobasic, Druzic, and so on. Now, Mr. Josse

6 pointed out the reference at the bottom of that entry and that you

7 commented on that the UN wanted to meet Muslims in the absence of

8 representatives from -- in the absence of Serbian representatives.

9 Correct?

10 A. No, I don't understand. UNPROFOR -- or rather, UNPROFOR

11 representatives said that they wanted to meet with everyone, not only with

12 the Muslims or someone who would gather information from the Serb side,

13 but rather with the actual representatives of the army, with the people

14 who have the authority to make decisions rather than meeting up with only

15 Muslims or with someone who did not have any decision-making authority, if

16 I've made myself clear enough. They wanted to see people who can take

17 decisions, if I remember well, and I do believe I do.

18 Q. And the entry in your diary of the importance of the UN to meet

19 Muslims and the representatives of their authorities and military

20 authorities in normal conditions did not reflect any concern on their part

21 that the information they were getting from Muslims might not be as

22 reliable as it would be if they met with Muslims in the absence of

23 representatives of the Serbian authorities. That would make some sense,

24 though, wouldn't it?

25 A. No, no. No.

Page 21481

1 Q. Well, isn't it a fact, Mr. Radojko, that -- isn't it a fact that

2 some of the information indeed that UNPROFOR was getting from Serbian

3 representatives was, shall we say, a little slanted and one-sided and

4 didn't represent the full picture of what was happening to Muslims in

5 Petrovac?

6 A. As far as Petrovac is concerned, they had first-hand information

7 from the people there. They even talked to them separately, on their own.

8 I don't know why only one side should be present. I didn't provide them

9 with any information. The only party who could provide them with

10 one-sided, inaccurate information was me, but even if -- had I provided

11 them with such information, they spoke with the Muslims on their own on

12 several occasions. It says here they should meet with the Muslims, then

13 with the representatives of the authorities and a military representative.

14 Now why? Because they already knew that the Muslims were not represented

15 by those in the authorities, that they had already left the municipality

16 many, many months earlier; in the month of May or even earlier. This

17 meant that they wanted to meet with the representatives -- the official

18 representatives of the Serb authorities and a military representative,

19 that's to say a representative of the Serbian army, which means that they

20 wanted to relay their position to these people directly and not through me

21 as a courier.

22 Q. I'm just focussing on the notes in your diary, which are meetings

23 that you attended, which are obviously not meetings at which Muslims only

24 were present. So in that respect if I can ask you to turn to another

25 diary entry to which Mr. Josse directed your attention, that's page 244 of

Page 21482

1 your diary, August 17th.

2 Now, in fairness to you I'll -- I recall that you indicated that

3 your recollection was that most of the time Muslims were present, but to

4 be quite accurate, your diary, of course, does not reflect the presence of

5 any Muslim at this particular meeting. So to the extent we're depending

6 on the diary rather than your recollection of general events, it would

7 seem to indicate that this was a meeting between you and international

8 representatives. I want to --

9 MR. JOSSE: Could that be turned into a question, if it be a

10 suggestion.

11 MR. TIEGER: It is indeed a suggestion.

12 Q. So I just want to know if you have any specific recollection of

13 who was there, sir, or, as you were indicating to the Court, it was just

14 your general recollection that Muslim representatives were usually present

15 at such meetings.

16 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I don't really remember a meeting

17 which they did not attend. I have to admit I don't recall where this

18 meeting was held, whether it was in Petrovac, Knin, Licko Petrovo Selo.

19 If it was in Licko Petrovo Selo, then I know for a fact that Muslim

20 representatives were there and I only sat out for part of the meeting

21 because they asked me to leave the room because they wanted to finish the

22 meeting outside my presence. And I'm talking about this meeting on the

23 17th of August. It's possible that I did not make note of their presence

24 because I was part of the delegation. Wherever the delegation was, I was,

25 and vice versa. I can't remember, to tell you the truth.

Page 21483

1 Q. Well, let me just focus on the first part of this note: "They

2 will not take part in re-settlement, that is unacceptable in war, economic

3 reasons, unemployment is the same for the Serbs and that is not the reason

4 for re-settlement."

5 "They will not take part in re-settlement," that's a reference to

6 the international community refusing to take part?

7 A. Yes. Mr. Odobasic presented the reasons, and their answer was a

8 firm one, was this one. There were still some prospects for them to

9 actually organise to help with the convoy at the time --

10 Q. Excuse me, sir. It's not pleasant to have to interrupt you but

11 you need to listen to my question and just answer it, please. All right.

12 And -- so the answer is: "Yes, they --" the reference "they will not take

13 part" is a reference to the international community.

14 And the reason given the international community, as reflected in

15 your minutes, and the reason rejected by the international community, was

16 economic reasons, unemployment. Correct? That's what these

17 representatives of the international community were told, and that's the

18 reason they rejected.

19 A. They rejected this for safety reasons as well. You have to know

20 that it's quite difficult to make note of everything as people speak.

21 They rejected this for security reasons as well. It's not -- that's not

22 written here, but the only reasons not mentioned -- or rather, not

23 reflected here are the security reasons, and the security also referring

24 to the Serbs who were staying behind. You see, it says here they want --

25 or rather, the local authorities to protect them and that -- they want for

Page 21484

1 the aid to be equally distributed. So the gist of it is there. They do

2 know that there are security reasons at issue here as well.

3 Q. Let's just focus on the economic reasons. The international

4 representatives understood from their discussion with you - whoever else

5 was present - that you were saying that economic reasons that applied

6 equally to Serbs as Muslims was prompting the desire by Muslims to leave.

7 Correct?

8 A. Yes. Economic reasons, too. I have to explain to you why they

9 were in an economically less favourable position. With the start of the

10 war --

11 Q. No, no, please, I don't want to hear an explanation of that. I

12 want to know -- I've asked you what they were told on this occasion,

13 you've explained. And they were led to believe -- they rejected that, but

14 it's clear that you didn't explain to them in any way that the

15 unemployment situation for Muslims was dramatically worse by virtue of the

16 actions of the Crisis Staff. Correct? That Muslims were being

17 discharged. That part wasn't explained to the representatives of the

18 international community, was it?

19 A. I don't think that's correct. As far as I remember, the situation

20 was described to them in great detail. As I said, this was crucial, not

21 only for the Muslims but also for the Serbs because the overwhelming

22 majority of them were unemployed, but you didn't allow me to give you the

23 explanation of it. But the two ethnic groups were not in the same

24 economic position --

25 Q. Right. And despite your -- what must have been a fairly dramatic

Page 21485

1 explanation of the situation in which Muslims were being discharged from

2 their jobs, these international representatives failed to grasp that,

3 commenting that unemployment was the same for Serbs. So they missed that

4 whole point of your explanation, is what you're saying. Is that it?

5 A. That's not what I'm saying.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, let's move on.

7 MR. TIEGER: Okay.

8 Q. Finally -- well, two more things. One with respect to the issue

9 of the telephones the Judge -- that you spoke with His Honour about. I

10 had one question about that as well. As you've indicated earlier,

11 Petrovac was an overwhelming Serb municipality. So I'd like to know how

12 it is that if Petrovac had only 1200 to 1500 phone lines, that Muslims had

13 800 of them at the time all Muslims -- all 800 Muslims were -- had their

14 telephone service cut?

15 A. Firstly, you're now pinning me down on one word, and I was giving

16 you my opinion. First of all, I hadn't been in Petrovac for quite a long

17 time and I wasn't dealing with those problems. I believe -- and at the

18 end of the day it's easy to verify how many telephone lines Petrovac had.

19 Whether it was 1.000, or 1.500, I don't know, but I can tell you, and I

20 said clearly, that among the 800 people whose lines were disconnected,

21 there were also Serbs, although it was mostly Muslims who had their

22 telephone lines disconnected. But this wasn't central to what I was doing

23 at the time. I was listening to information being presented and this was

24 something that was given by the way, and now you're trying to put words

25 into my mouth. At the end of the day the Muslim intelligence service

Page 21486

1 seized this documentation and gave it over to you has all the information.

2 You have telephone directories from before the war and one can easily

3 double-check how many there were, and you're trying to establish what the

4 number was through me by implying that I'm not telling the truth. I was

5 telling you things from memory, and you keep giving me documents which

6 contain the exact precise information. Do you recall facts from 15 years

7 back? I was expelled twice --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojko, please listen carefully to the questions

9 put to you by Mr. Tieger and answer them.

10 Please proceed.


12 Q. Now, having disconnected all Muslim numbers, as the diary

13 reference of June 13th that we looked at yesterday indicates, it would

14 have been necessary, would it not, to at least connect the telephone of

15 one or maybe two Muslims in order to assure their attendance at meetings

16 with UNPROFOR designed for the purpose of moving them out of the

17 municipality. Correct?

18 A. Not because of that. Not all these lines were disconnected -- I

19 mean of all the Muslims. For instance, the head of the post office was a

20 Muslim and I don't believe his telephone line was disconnected. But to

21 tell you the truth, I don't know. But it wasn't just with UNPROFOR that

22 people communicated. I don't think we could even establish a direct line

23 with UNPROFOR.

24 Q. The connection that --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's keep it short. We're not --

Page 21487

1 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour --


3 MR. JOSSE: That was a serious suggestion that was made to the

4 witness; he's entitled to deal with it. If my learned friend is going to

5 make allegations like that, the witness is entitled to deal with it fully.

6 It's an extremely loaded question and got a long response, unsurprisingly,

7 in the circumstances.

8 MR. TIEGER: I'll ask three brief questions in that regard, Your

9 Honour.

10 Q. Was Husein Odobasic the Odobasic who attended the meetings

11 reflected earlier in your diary?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the decision by the connection of one telephone, either to

14 Sefko or Husein Odobasic required a decision by the War Presidency, right,

15 as reflected in your diary on 18 August 1992?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And finally --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock --

19 MR. TIEGER: Last thing, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Last question? Okay.

21 MR. TIEGER: And that is: This is something I thought had been

22 done and intended to do yesterday. If I could distribute this to the

23 witness and the Court. This is -- the Court will recall tab 22, the list

24 of 29 persons taken to Kozila on July 1st.

25 Q. And if you can just look at --

Page 21488

1 MR. TIEGER: And this needs a number, Your Honours.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1108, Your Honours.

3 MR. TIEGER: This is a --

4 MR. JOSSE: I don't want to be more difficult than I have to be.

5 Where is the original? Is --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, is there any B/C/S version of this?

7 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, it's primarily a list of

8 names, but I appreciate the -- no, I understand.

9 MR. JOSSE: Well --

10 JUDGE ORIE: There's quite a lot of common --

11 MR. JOSSE: Precisely. Could I have a moment to look at the

12 original before any questions are asked?

13 I see there's a lot of information at the back of the original,

14 which --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which seems not to be translated into English.

16 MR. JOSSE: I'd also like to inquire what this document is before

17 it's put to the witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may -- Mr. Tieger, may I take it that the

19 English version, the last, I would say, six pages, starting ERN number

20 last three digits 290 could be taken off because there seems not to be any

21 translation of that?

22 MR. TIEGER: Correct, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We take off the last three pages -- five

24 pages.

25 MR. TIEGER: It should go to English translation 353 and --

Page 21489

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

2 MR. TIEGER: And list -- person listed at number 83.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, now we are back with the list only.

4 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Are we going to get the provenance of it, Your

5 Honour?

6 MR. TIEGER: This was seized from Bosanski Petrovac, along with

7 all the -- basically all the other documents we've been looking at.

8 MR. JOSSE: Well, I'll listen to the cross-examination.


10 MR. TIEGER: And this particular document came from the Petrovac

11 SJB.

12 Q. Mr. Radojko, my quick look at this indicates -- seems to indicate

13 the name of about nine or ten of the same people who appear at the list in

14 tab 22 that you -- that was introduced into evidence, or that you had a

15 chance to look at the other day. That's at tab 22 of the materials that

16 we've been looking at, if you want to look at that again. And if I can be

17 of assistance, you might see, for example, the name of Husein Kartal,

18 Fadil Kartal, and so on.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And I'd just like to know two things: Number one, if you can

21 confirm that the overlap of people from both lists; and number two, if

22 both lists contain, to the best of your knowledge, the names of only

23 Muslims.

24 A. Judging by their names, they are indeed all Muslims. But at first

25 glance, I don't seem to know any of them. But judging by their names,

Page 21490

1 they are Muslims.

2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that's all I have.

3 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could the witness go out, I've got a

4 point I wish to raise about this document.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've got one problem, Mr. Josse: How much time

6 would we still need for that?

7 MR. JOSSE: I may need a fair amount of time. Perhaps I could

8 address the Chamber about it and voice my concerns.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. At the same time, we are

10 close to a break and if you would need considerable time, we would have to

11 break anyhow. Would this result in any further examination, whether

12 re-examination, cross-examination of the witness?

13 MR. JOSSE: I will almost certainly apply to re-examine the

14 witness further.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then we can't finish at this moment. You'll

16 have an opportunity to address the Chamber after the break.

17 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And I do understand the importance of criminal

19 procedure, especially in a court of law. At the same time, the Court --

20 our core business is to hear evidence and not to see what kind of

21 procedural issues -- of course I do not know what you will bring us,

22 Mr. Josse, but I noticed that especially the last couple of days we had

23 more procedural incidents than -- and I'm not saying you're to be blamed

24 for it, I'm looking to Mr. Tieger as well, but I'm just expressing my

25 concern about it.

Page 21491

1 We'll have a break. We'll re-start at 25 minutes past 4.00, and

2 the witness should be stand-by at that moment to re-enter the courtroom.

3 MR. JOSSE: Could I ask for a little bit more time? I want to go

4 in to briefly see the next witness to see if he's all right, and I would

5 like to look at this document closely. It may be that a half an hour

6 break would help me.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll re-start at 4.30.

8 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 --- Recess taken at 4.01 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, you asked not only for time but even

13 considerable time. I said something about procedural issues. I want to

14 avoid what we're at risk to do yesterday, to re-visit Browne v. Dunn again

15 on the Rule 90(H)(ii), go into the ways it is applied everywhere. I think

16 it was not of major importance, but let's try to keep our procedural

17 issues really to the point. Please proceed.

18 MR. JOSSE: It's the last document that concerns.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the list.

20 MR. JOSSE: The time has been valuable. Mr. Tieger very helpfully

21 has informed me - without my asking him, it's fair to say - that he

22 accepts that he should have pointed out that this document clearly does

23 not arise from my re-examination and, therefore, needless to say, I am

24 entitled to re-examine on it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's one of the first remarks I made to my

Page 21492

1 colleagues when we left this courtroom. Yes, he -- what he was not

2 allowed to do yesterday, he thought he will find the time now.

3 MR. TIEGER: And I, as I say, I immediately told Mr. Josse, and I

4 apologise to the Court. I had intended to bring that to the attention --

5 bring my understanding to the attention of the Court and ask their

6 permission.


8 MR. JOSSE: I am somewhat perturbed by this document, but before I

9 re-examine on it, perhaps I could submit that it shouldn't be admitted

10 into evidence, that the witness's response to the questions he was asked

11 don't provide sufficient foundation for its admission into evidence. And

12 if the Court was so to rule at this stage, then I wouldn't need to ask any

13 further questions of the witness. If the Court's against me on that, then

14 I would like to re-examine.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, why should we read this list in order to

16 know that when Mujaga Didovic was taken into custody that it was noted

17 that she threatened Serbs as a child? Or what are we supposed to learn

18 from this which adds to what we know already?

19 MR. TIEGER: First of all, Your Honour, my examination of that

20 indicates that approximately ten of the people on this list appear on the

21 name of the list provided before.


23 MR. TIEGER: I think it's useful in that respect --

24 JUDGE ORIE: I mean --

25 MR. TIEGER: And we heard --

Page 21493

1 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't the list about, from what I see, stopping cars

2 and perhaps arresting people. I take it that everyone who was in custody

3 was arrested prior to being in custody. I would not expect, under those

4 circumstances, Muslims knocking at the door of a detention facility and

5 saying: Please let me in. So for that purpose, unless, Mr. Josse, you

6 would disagree, that if someone would be detained, that it's fair to

7 accept that he was arrested before kept in detention?

8 MR. JOSSE: That would be a fair assumption.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So that's -- for that purpose, therefore, we hardly

10 need it, Mr. Tieger.

11 MR. TIEGER: Well, that's not to show that they were arrested but

12 just the ostensible bases for those arrests.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and now, could this witness, do you think, tell

14 us anything about -- of course we see on this list that one person taken

15 into custody was also known as Pike, or -- well, of course there are some

16 matters, I take it, that you -- one was a criminal and a nationalist.

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I think --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Is that what you --

19 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, if I can explain quickly, maybe it will help

20 resolve it.


22 MR. TIEGER: I think this is a document that might have more --

23 understandably, come in as a contextual document or in a dossier or

24 something of that nature. It just occurred to me that because this

25 witness was here, Mr. Josse would want to see this document. And I also

Page 21494

1 think from the witness's answer he doesn't know these individual people,

2 which would have made it even more appropriate as a contextual document.

3 So in that context, I have no problem. Just as an abundance of caution I

4 thought I would present it here so if the witness did know any of those

5 people he could comment on them, if Mr. Josse so chose. And that was my

6 only rationale for doing so.

7 JUDGE ORIE: This witness told us that he doesn't know these

8 people. Of course, we could ask him to read all the names once again.

9 Mr. Josse, would it be appropriate, would it be a solution, to

10 further discuss the admission of this document as a -- not perhaps at this

11 very moment, but to, at a later stage, consider whether this could be

12 admitted as a contextual document. At the same time I'm aware,

13 Mr. Tieger, that we're now hearing the Defence case rather than the

14 Prosecution case. That might need some further thought as well as to what

15 extent new contextual exhibits should be admitted during the presentation

16 of the Defence case.

17 MR. JOSSE: I'm bound to say that I agree with Mr. Tieger to this

18 extent: If it's going to be admitted, it should be admitted having been

19 put to the witness, allowing the Defence to deal with it in

20 re--examination. So I submit that it should not be admitted as a

21 contextual document. If it's going to be admitted, it should be admitted

22 in the way that Mr. Tieger's presented it, and as I've made quite clear, I

23 oppose that in any event for the reasons I've already set out. I hope my

24 position is plain on that, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say: If it were to be admitted, it should

Page 21495

1 be admitted in the way Mr. Tieger proposed, but even then you would

2 strongly oppose against admission.

3 MR. JOSSE: Precisely. And I ask for a ruling now for the reasons

4 I mentioned earlier.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, the Chamber gives a ruling. The Chamber

7 does not admit this document at this moment through this witness. If ever

8 a request would be on our table to admit it as a contextual document, the

9 Chamber is aware that it would cause a lot of serious legal questions,

10 we'll then consider them, but it might that it never happens and then we

11 don't have to answer all these serious legal -- give an answer to all

12 these serious legal issues. That's the ruling.

13 MR. JOSSE: Then, when the witness comes back into court, I'm

14 going to say I have no further questions for him.


16 Then let's bring in the witness.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, we gave the document a number

19 already. That means that number --

20 THE REGISTRAR: P1108 would be available, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 MR. JOSSE: As Your Honour's aware, I have no further questions.


25 Mr. Radojko, Mr. Josse has no further questions for you.

Page 21496

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: And since the Bench has no question, Mr. Tieger, I

3 take it that -- let me just see -- yes, I should ask --

4 MR. TIEGER: I'm amazed but very pleased you turned to me, Your

5 Honour, but I have no further questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see -- okay.

7 Mr. Radojko, since the Bench has no further questions to you

8 either, this means that this concludes your testimony in this court. I

9 would like to thank you very much for coming the, well, very far way to

10 The Hague and to testify to answer questions put to you, both by the

11 parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then as far as exhibits are concerned -- there are

15 not many new exhibits. Most of the exhibits in the binders were exhibits

16 that were already admitted.

17 MR. JOSSE: Well, for this particular witness I can say with a

18 fair degree of confidence that the only document I'm going to oppose the

19 admission of is - I'm just checking the number - P1014, I think it was --

20 excuse me whilst I try and get my list -- which was the document from the

21 humanitarian organisation -- the Reuters --

22 MR. TIEGER: I'm guessing 1104.

23 MR. JOSSE: 1104, the Reuters document. I'm in the Court's hands

24 as to when the Court wishes to hear the argument on that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps -- let me see. How much time would it take

Page 21497

1 you?

2 MR. JOSSE: Two minutes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Two minutes. Please take your two minutes.

4 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, the Defence submit that this is exactly

5 the sort of document that the Court should not admit into evidence. It is

6 a hearsay account from a reporting organisation. The witness did not

7 accept the small part that was put to him. My learned friend only chose

8 to put a small part to him; he didn't accept its accuracy. It's of no

9 probative value, in our submission, and if it is of any probative value at

10 all, its prejudicial value so outweighs any probative value as to mean the

11 Court should have no hesitation in refusing its submission.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

13 MR. TIEGER: Well, first of all, I may have mis-cited it. I know

14 it was in the 1100 series or so, but I don't know if that's the number.

15 JUDGE ORIE: 1100 series sounds like cars, Mr. Tieger, but we talk

16 exhibits. Yes.

17 MR. TIEGER: I think this argument is unfounded because it's

18 misdirected in large measure. I think counsel's concern is about the

19 admission of newspaper accounts that purport by themselves to prove that

20 events happened. At a minimum, this document is about the kind of

21 information available to the authorities, the kind of information that was

22 disseminated. There was considerable discussion during the course of his

23 -- during the course of his testimony about propaganda and the various

24 uses and impacts of information disseminated, as he said, by either side.

25 In this particular case, by Bosnian Serb authorities. This document goes

Page 21498

1 directly to that, both to what information was available to the Bosnian

2 Serbs from international organisations and what information was being

3 disseminated to international organisations from the Bosnian Serb

4 authorities. And at a minimum, as evidence of notice and about

5 contemporaneous events, that is, UNPROFOR or international -- the

6 declarations of international organisations, it's clearly probative and

7 clearly relevant.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger. I suggest the following to

9 the parties: In the course -- during the testimony of Mr. Radojko --

10 testimony of Mr. Radojko, often numbers were assigned, were withdrawn at a

11 later stage. Sometimes numbers given to exhibits that were already in

12 evidence. The registrar is invited to prepare an updated list of all the

13 documents that were introduced through Mr. Radojko. We'll have that on

14 the table at our next session, our next hearing. We'll then also give our

15 ruling on the admission of 1104, the Reuters report.

16 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Josse, are you ready to call your next

18 witness?

19 MR. JOSSE: Well --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Is the next witness ready to be called by you?

21 MR. JOSSE: Well, he's here.

22 JUDGE ORIE: He's here, yes.

23 MR. JOSSE: That's my first observation. Frankly, the Defence

24 logistical position, leave aside the witness's situation, is not exactly

25 what I might have hoped. I had thought that I had arranged to have copied

Page 21499

1 all the sessions of the Republika Srpska government in 1992. That has not

2 happened. A number of those sessions are relevant. We thought we would

3 produce a comprehensive bundle which, frankly, might be useful later on.

4 Your Honour, let me see how far I can go and get without that material.

5 Could I make this inquiry --


7 MR. JOSSE: -- I don't know whether there exists a comprehensive

8 set of government sessions. Mr. Margetts, who's been very helpful and is

9 dealing with this witness, tells me that he has only selective sessions in

10 the bundle that he's prepared for the witness, which I can well

11 understand. I wonder whether the Prosecution have one or more bundles of

12 the full run. If they don't --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts --

14 MR. JOSSE: -- again I can well understand. There's no reason why

15 they should. I'm not trying to --

16 JUDGE ORIE: To be quite honest, I know that some of these huge

17 binder series in evidence, I never know which type of document to find in

18 which -- under which number. But -- let me just have a look. For

19 example, I know that we have the P64, binders 1 to 28, et cetera. If we

20 find them somewhere in there -- I'm a bit concerned about, again, cutting

21 down a whole wood, and at least the Bench has some access to electronic

22 versions of documents that are already in evidence. I take it that the

23 same is true for the Prosecution. Prosecution could put that on the

24 screen. So therefore, I wonder whether we have to produce another series

25 of binders.

Page 21500

1 MR. JOSSE: Well, the good news is I've got a complete set, so my

2 set could go on the screen, if need be. My team produced one set.

3 JUDGE ORIE: If we now refrain from driving the copying machines

4 to madness and rather see if we can cope with what we have at this very

5 moment.

6 Mr. Margetts --

7 MR. JOSSE: Well, the Defence machine is in the asylum already.

8 JUDGE ORIE: In the asylum already, yes.

9 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. We would be able to locate a

10 version suitable for us electronically.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so we could then put that on the screen. And

12 may I ask you, Mr. Margetts, in what -- under what exhibit number would we

13 find most? Because I've got quite a lot on my computer. I'm not certain

14 that I have the complete series, but where would I have to look mainly?

15 Would it be in P529 or P64 or ...?

16 MR. MARGETTS: I would expect P64A, but I --

17 JUDGE ORIE: P64A, there I've got 28 binders and I have -- I have

18 it all up to binder 12, I'm afraid, that we've come that far.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour.


21 MR. MARGETTS: It is the fact that we have an electronic file with

22 all of the translations in that file.


24 MR. MARGETTS: And we could put that on disk and provide it --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Not the original?

Page 21501

1 MR. MARGETTS: -- to the Court. Not the original.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is mainly to get it in the right place in

3 our computer so we can -- Mr. Josse, I suggest that we just --

4 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, you are invited to start and we can see

7 how far we can --

8 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Lakic.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lakic, before you give evidence in this court,

15 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

16 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

17 the truth. The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Lakic.

21 Mr. Josse, would you prefer that I put a few initial questions to

22 the witness or would you rather start and see whether at any given moment

23 there would be a need to put some questions to the witness about today's

24 events?

25 MR. JOSSE: Let me start, please.

Page 21502

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examination by Mr. Josse:

5 Q. Your name is Nedeljko Lakic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were born in Trebinje and went to school there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You then got a law degree in Sarajevo and --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- began working in the Bosnian MUP?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You worked for a short time in the Ministry of Defence and --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- then you were employed with the professional services of the

16 government of Bosnia; a civil servant, in effect?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In 1979, you were appointed as an under-secretary to the cabinet

19 of Bosnia?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You were a member of the Communist Party until 1990?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. After the multi-party elections, you worked in the Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina Presidency, and your job was secretary to the Council for the

25 Protection of the Constitutional Order?

Page 21503

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That was a position you held from 1983 until the outbreak of the

3 war in 1992?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At the outbreak of the war, you went to live in Pale and shortly

6 thereafter - and we'll go into the details later - you became secretary to

7 the cabinet or government of the Republika Srpska, a position you held

8 till 1998?

9 A. Secretary of the government.

10 Q. When the government of the Republika Srpska moved to Banja Luka,

11 you took a job there as a government inspector. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And eventually you received employment with the BiH government,

14 for whom you presently work?

15 A. I beg your pardon: The Presidency of the B & H.

16 Q. I beg your pardon, thank you very much for clarifying that. And

17 you basically work now in a part-time capacity. Is that correct?

18 A. I've retired two years ago, and then they gave me a contract, a

19 work contract as a free-lancer. I am paid for the amount of time I spend

20 working. As for the rest of my income, it is from my retirement.

21 Q. I want to first, in terms of my substantive questions, ask you

22 about the Council for the Protection of the Constitutional Order. What

23 was the purpose of that council, please?

24 A. The Council for the Protection of the Constitutional Order was a

25 working body, basically a working body, which prepared material for

Page 21504

1 meetings of the Presidency, and --

2 Q. Yes?

3 A. And basically it could not pass any independent decisions; it just

4 prepared material for sessions of the Presidency. May I? These materials

5 were prepared on the basis of material that were submitted by ministries

6 whose members were on the council itself. The council was constituted on

7 an ethnic basis. It consisted of representatives of all three constituent

8 peoples. So that is as regards ethnicity.

9 As regards substance, it consisted of representatives of the

10 government, the Assembly, and the Ministry of the Interior. When

11 necessary, other representatives of different bodies could attend

12 government sessions if their material was on the agenda. That would be

13 it, as briefly as possible.

14 Q. Prior to 1992, were any ethnic tensions demonstrated by anything

15 that went on in the council?

16 A. Yes. These ethnic tensions could be felt. There was a hint of

17 such tensions in immediate contacts that took place, that is to say, among

18 citizens of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This was true

19 to a lesser degree in relations among different organs of the institutions

20 of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 I would like to give a normal example as far as citizens are

22 concerned. For example, if people were talking in a mono-ethnic setting,

23 if I can put it that way, if somebody who was of a different ethnic

24 background would come in ...

25 (redacted)

Page 21505

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 Q. Let me help you a little bit, Mr. Lakic. If you could be a bit

Page 21506

1 more specific. I particularly would like you to tell the Trial Chamber

2 about the way ethnic tensions reared their head in any of the activities

3 of the Council for the Protection of Constitutional Order prior to 1992.

4 A. In 1990 elections were held. Nationalist parties won that

5 election. I think that the tensions, the ethnic tensions, started from

6 then on, that is to say, after the victory of the nationalist parties.

7 MR. JOSSE: Could I --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse --

9 MR. JOSSE: Could I invite the Chamber to ask the witness to step

10 outside and then for the Chamber to go into closed session, please.


12 Mr. Lakic, could you, for one second, follow Madam Usher, leave

13 the courtroom for a second.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, we turn into closed session.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Just one moment, Your Honour, we're emptying the

17 gallery.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would private session do, Mr. Josse?

19 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's not possible, I think --

21 MR. JOSSE: It would do --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but in this courtroom it doesn't -- it doesn't

23 resolve the problem.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 21507











11 Pages 21507-21509 redacted. Private session.















Page 21510

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

24 For the parties to know, I -- during the break I instructed the

25 registry to strike one question put by me and one answer given by the

Page 21511

1 witness from the public record. Our information is that there's no reason

2 at this moment not to continue, so therefore, Madam Usher, I'd like you to

3 escort the witness into the courtroom.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Lakic.

6 Mr. Lakic, the Chamber understands that it's a new environment for

7 you and that you might not immediately have felt at ease. We took an

8 additional break for some time. Whenever you'd feel that you have

9 difficulties in either understanding the questions or if you feel at

10 unease, please ask whatever you'd like to ask to me in those

11 circumstances, or request -- if you'd say: I'd rather now have an

12 additional break of a quarter of an hour, please ask me. So we will go

13 slowly on. And before the break I put one question to you and you've

14 answered that question. That specific question, you may remember what

15 question it -- I may point at, it's stricken from the record, so that's

16 not public anymore.

17 Yes?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. And the answer was

19 correct.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take that the answer is correct, but the

21 whole question, inclusive answer, has been stricken from the record. So

22 that's not public at this moment.

23 Mr. Josse -- Mr. Josse will now continue to examine you.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


Page 21512

1 Q. When we broke off, Mr. Lakic, I was asking you about how really in

2 1991 ethnic tensions manifested themselves in the Council for the

3 Protection of Constitutional Order.

4 A. This was 15 years ago; that's why I cannot be specific in my

5 answers. It's been a long time ago. I did not expect there to be any

6 questions pertaining to council meetings. I believe it was at the 12th

7 Session of the council -- or rather, that it was the 12th Session of the

8 council which proved to be very important for the ethnic relationship in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The meeting was convened by Biljana Plavsic, who was

10 a member of the Presidency and on the council --

11 Q. I'm going to stop you because -- let me help you to this degree:

12 My question was specifically general. I'm sure the Chamber understands

13 it's a long time ago. Perhaps if we have a look at a document, that might

14 assist you in relation to a particular meeting.

15 MR. JOSSE: Now, Your Honours, I'm about to distribute a bundle

16 which, I should say, the Prosecution had not had till a few minutes ago.

17 It contains documents primarily, but not exclusively, that have previously

18 been exhibited. There is a slight problem with tab 1 in a number of these

19 editions, but not in the witness's, and I've explained to my learned

20 friends. The witness's tab 1 is correct, deliberately.


22 MR. JOSSE: So that's for the witness and there are other bundles

23 for the Court and interpreters.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And the first document is already exhibited?

25 MR. JOSSE: It is, Your Honour. It's P64A, and it's tab 1 that

Page 21513

1 I'm going to -- part of --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lakic -- yes, Madam Usher, could you take care

3 that the papers are not touching the microphone, because that's what

4 causes the -- yes.


6 Q. Yes. As I was saying, it's part of P64A --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you be more specific, Mr. --

8 MR. JOSSE: No.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Binder and tab numbers are not available?

10 MR. JOSSE: No.

11 Mr. Margetts has been very --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, could you --

13 MR. JOSSE: He's been very helpful on some other documents. I'm

14 sure --

15 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, we'll attempt to find the

16 footnote number that corresponds to this document.

17 JUDGE ORIE: No, mainly binder and tab numbers, that's how they

18 appear.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honours, but I think there may be some

20 confusion with the Treanor exhibits. P65 had binder and tab numbers.

21 P64A referred to the footnotes to the report.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then I'm a bit lost, quite lost. Let's proceed.

23 Let's see how far we go.


25 Q. Now, Mr. Lakic, firstly, this is the 13th Session of the council

Page 21514

1 that you are looking at. It took place in Sarajevo on the 9th of March,

2 1992. Is this the meeting you were beginning to tell the Chamber about?

3 A. Yes. This is the session of the Council for the Protection of the

4 Constitutional Order. This particular session was exceptionally

5 significant, in my opinion, because at this meeting the political

6 situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina was examined. The main conclusion at

7 -- of the council was that the political situation was a drastic one and

8 that a civil war might break out. In order to avert this, the council

9 decided that all -- any and all measures be taken in that preventing the

10 outbreak of a conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina. This primarily had to

11 do with the reorganisation of the army because the SDA - Alija

12 Izetbegovic's party, that is - asked that all Muslim members, now called

13 Bosniaks, withdraw, and almost all of them did withdraw. The council

14 asked that the army be reorganised in such a way that the new organisation

15 reflected the ethnic make-up of the Socialist Republic of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 The second conclusion was that, to the same end, the Ministry of

18 the Interior be reorganised, that its human resources be improved and its

19 work enhanced. There were also requests that the reserve police force and

20 the TO be activated. These two were part of the armed forces of Bosnia

21 and Herzegovina together with the army.

22 The third conclusion was that justice administration bodies,

23 that's to say SUP, prosecutor's office and judiciary, improve the

24 efficiency of their work and prevent any conflicts in the territory of the

25 Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 21515

1 A more general conclusion followed from this, mainly that all

2 state bodies of Bosnia-Herzegovina be active participants in this process.

3 I believe that I have given you a resume of the council's position and --

4 a summary. And this particular document was delivered to all the state

5 bodies in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The council could not make decisions on

6 matters. It could only give recommendations to the state bodies, and

7 every conclusion taken by the council is then further discussed by the

8 government.

9 Now, as to the reason why the presiding of the council -- the

10 presiding person of the council convened this particular meeting which

11 took place on the 12th of March, there were the 1990 elections preceding

12 this which brought on tensions, as I've already said. It was, in

13 particular, the events on the either the 28th or the 29th of February and

14 on the 1st of March when Muslims and Croats took part in a -- in a

15 referendum and decided at the referendum that the independence of the

16 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina be declared. In this way the

17 constitution was violated as well as the equality of the constituent -- of

18 one constituent peoples, and namely Serbs.

19 The constitution cannot be amended and a referendum cannot be

20 called -- or rather, its results cannot be accepted unless there is a

21 two-third majority in favour. As far as I remember, in 1990, in the

22 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbs constituted about 35 per

23 cent of the population, and none of them participated in the referendum.

24 In the aftermath of the referendum, there was general chaos in Sarajevo as

25 well as in other parts of Bosnia, although I can speak for Sarajevo

Page 21516

1 because that's where I live. In the areas where the Serbs constituted a

2 majority, they erected roadblocks, and Muslims did the same in the areas

3 where they were in a majority.

4 In this period of time, a very grave matter occurred for

5 Christians, and that was that Muslims murdered a member -- a guest at the

6 wedding. And of course you have to understand that this --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lakic, perhaps I can explain to you that quite a

8 lot of things you've told us have been the subject of testimony of other

9 witnesses as well. For example, the wedding you just mentioned that one

10 of the guests was murdered; we've heard that several times. I therefore

11 suggest to you that you carefully listen to what specifically Mr. Josse

12 wants to know from you, because this Chamber has heard evidence already

13 considerably, and we would like to hear what you could add, and Mr. Josse

14 will put the questions to you in such a way because he knows what has been

15 the testimonies until now, so that your information is added to what we

16 already know.

17 Mr. Josse, would you please keep this as well in mind if you put

18 further questions to the witness.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Margetts.

21 MR. MARGETTS: I'm in a position to provide the details in

22 relation to the first exhibit, which is the minutes of the 13th Session of

23 the Council of the Protection for Constitutional Order. That is P64A,

24 binder 4, footnote 46.

25 And whilst I'm on my feet, Mr. Josse may proceed to tab 2, he may

Page 21517

1 not, but if he could take a note of this, that's P64A, binder 25, footnote

2 718, 718.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Our exhibits are organised in a different way

4 on the computer, so it finally does not assist me --

5 MR. JOSSE: And ours aren't organised at all, as is quite

6 apparent.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Josse.

8 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Lakic, what I'd like you to do is have a look at item 1, the

10 agenda, the meeting on the 13th Session. And it says that: "All members

11 of the Council in attendance participated in the discussion. They found

12 the political/security situation in SR Bosnia-Herzegovina critical and

13 that large-scale conflicts and civil war may be expected if appropriate

14 measures are not taken immediately.

15 "It was agreed to make the following proposals:

16 "1) Relevant government authorities and institutions must be able

17 to guarantee that rule of law shall prevail in the country, and that

18 constitutionality and legality are observed. In this respect, the

19 presence of paramilitary among all the three peoples in the Republic

20 should be considered a priority issue."

21 I want to ask you about that last sentence, please. When this

22 meeting was taking place in March of 1992, what was your understanding of

23 the state of --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, while reading, you -- the French

25 interpreters get a backlog, and so would you please read a bit more

Page 21518

1 slowly.

2 MR. JOSSE: I apologise.

3 Q. Mr. Lakic, what was your understanding at the time of this meeting

4 of the state of paramilitaries among the three ethnic communities of

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

6 A. Yes. I am of the same opinion -- or rather, I formulated these

7 positions that the council eventually adopted.

8 Q. So what paramilitaries were you aware of so far as Serbs were

9 concerned?

10 A. I think it had to do with the White Eagles. At this stage I

11 cannot recall anyone else, but I know that on the Muslim side the SDA -- a

12 year earlier two paramilitary structures were set up which Alija

13 Izetbegovic recognised before his passing away at an SDA Assembly session.

14 As for the Croats, I wouldn't be able to tell you which these were.

15 However, as far as I know, the regular army of the Republic of

16 Croatia crossed over into the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina at

17 Sijekovac, where a massacre was committed against Serbs. I wanted to use

18 this as an illustration of the chaos which prevailed.

19 Q. There is one other part of this document I would like to ask you

20 about. Could you look at number 5, please. We see it says --

21 A. Yes. Under item 5 it is stated -- or rather, since it was stated

22 that the national parties might have caused the situation, it was

23 concluded that the army and the law enforcement agencies would be more

24 efficient if the operation of these agencies was separated from the

25 political parties.

Page 21519

1 Q. At this point in time, were you a member of a political party?

2 A. I wasn't.

3 Q. You told the Chamber that you left the Communist Party in 1990.

4 Thereafter, did you ever join another political party?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When was that and which party?

7 A. In late 1993, into the Serbian Democratic Party.

8 Q. And why did you join that party at that stage?

9 A. Because I thought that the person who does not belong to the Serb

10 Democratic Party cannot hold any position anywhere in the Republika

11 Srpska.

12 Q. Why didn't you join that party in 1992?

13 A. Because I did not support the structuring of the state along

14 ethnic basis.

15 Q. In -- at about this time, were you secure in your job?

16 A. Your Honour, I don't understand the question.

17 Q. Yes. I'll --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you rephrase it?

19 MR. JOSSE: Indeed.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In what period of time?


22 Q. Yes, that's my fault. In March 1992, just before the outbreak of

23 the war, was your position within the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina

24 secure?

25 A. Apologies: In the Presidency, within the Presidency. The Serbian

Page 21520

1 Democratic Party practically removed me from the post of the secretary

2 within the Presidency, and nobody offered me any other jobs. I believe

3 that there was a decision by the Presidency on my removal.

4 Q. Let's take a look at that, if we may, please. Tab 3.

5 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I regret, this document isn't translated.

6 This isn't a great deal of it we're going to need to look at, fortunately.

7 Q. You're looking, aren't you, Mr. Lakic, at a -- the minutes from

8 the 78th Session of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina held on the 25th of April -- I beg your pardon, on the 24th of

10 April, 1992, and I should have said this is the 77th Session. Is that

11 correct?

12 A. I haven't seen anything about any Presidency session. This

13 particular session you mentioned was held on the 22nd of April and on the

14 23rd of April -- or rather, it was held on the 24th of April, and on the

15 25th of April I had already gone to Pale because that's where I lived.

16 Q. Yes, I think we're at cross-purposes. Turn the page, please, to

17 item number 2.

18 A. Yes. Very well.

19 Q. And we can see that under number 1 there's your name. Can you see

20 your name there?

21 A. Yes, I can, yes.

22 Q. Could you read out what it says after your name, please.

23 A. "On the proposal of the Commission for Organisation and Personnel

24 Matters of the RBiH Presidency, the Presidency took the following

25 decision: Nedeljko Lakic is to be relieved from the duty of the

Page 21521

1 republican advisor in the Presidency performing the duties of the

2 secretary of the Council for the Protection of the Constitutional Order."

3 Q. Why did you understand - and in fairness to you, you've half

4 explained this already - the reason that you were being removed from your

5 job?

6 A. Because the Serb Democratic Party decided that I should be removed

7 from the post and that another person - I believe his name is Radovan

8 Leskovic [as interpreted] - should be appointed to that post. This took

9 place before the war.

10 Q. That's Radovan Neskovic, is that correct?

11 A. Yes, yes, I believe so. Radomir - I apologise - yes.

12 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that you've not seen these minutes

13 before and you were obviously not at this meeting.

14 A. I could not; I was working at Pale.

15 MR. JOSSE: Could that tab have a number, please, Your Honour?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 3, Your Honour, would be D146.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

18 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

19 Q. Well, we've jumped ahead of the chronology a little bit,

20 Mr. Lakic, so that you could deal with that. Why did you leave Sarajevo?

21 A. I explained this long ago: Ten years ago I built a family house

22 at Pale that I used as a weekend cottage --

23 Q. Could I stop you there. You don't mean ten years ago from now,

24 2006; you mean ten years ago from 1992. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, from the start of the war.

Page 21522

1 Q. Go on, please.

2 A. I have been living in this house to this day.

3 Q. I'd like you to tell the Trial Chamber, Mr. Lakic, about your

4 reasons for leaving Sarajevo. You've explained that you had a home in

5 Pale. It was a weekend-type home; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. It covers an area of 120 square metres. You call it as you

7 like. I like to be physically active, and in spring-time and in

8 summer-time I used to work tending my garden around the house. And in

9 winter-time I went over there to ski. I have a wife and two sons, and we

10 all ski. That's far closer to Mount Jahorina than Sarajevo.

11 Q. Right. And -- perhaps I can be permitted to leave -- to lead.

12 You left in April of 1992. Sarajevo, that is.

13 A. On the 3rd of April, or on the 4th -- well, either on the 3rd or

14 on the 4th of April.

15 Q. And what was the reason that you left Sarajevo? The Chamber

16 understands you had somewhere else to go, but why was it that you left

17 Sarajevo, in effect, for good?

18 A. The first reason was -- or rather, the main reason for my going

19 there was of course to use it as a weekend cottage. The second reason was

20 that a friend of mine, a Muslim, suggested that I should go over there,

21 out of harm's way, because he was at Pale and he knew what the situation

22 was. My son wore a red five-pointed star on a hat and they all called

23 him --

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear what they called

25 him.

Page 21523

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And my friend told me that we should

2 perhaps go to Pale just to lie low for a while. The other reason was that

3 I was spending my time at Pale over the weekend and I wanted to go back

4 because I was supposed to be on duty and this was Sunday afternoon. I

5 boarded a bus that came from either Uzice or Kraljevo. I asked the driver

6 whether the bus was headed for Sarajevo --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lakic, you're telling us a lot of details. What

8 Mr. Josse, as far as I understood him, specifically wanted to know is not

9 whether you went by bus or by car, but mainly why you left. I think you

10 gave a clue to that answer when you said: "The second reason, that a

11 friend of mine, a Muslim, suggested that I should go over there, out of

12 harm's way."

13 Mr. Josse, is that the portion you'd like --

14 MR. JOSSE: Yes, Your Honour. I do hope I can be permitted to

15 lead on this a little bit because we also think there may be a translation

16 problem.

17 Q. It's right that your younger son, who was 17 at that point in

18 time, was a big fan of Red Star football club?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And he was being abused because of that, ethnically abused?

21 A. Yes. They objected to that and he was a supporter, he was

22 following his team in their footsteps, except for Tokyo, he didn't go over

23 there, but he was just a sports fan.

24 Q. And what -- was there anything that happened to your older son

25 that was of importance?

Page 21524

1 A. Yes. He worked in the MUP, and this was at the time when the MUP

2 had already split into two. He went back home to pick up his belongings -

3 a suit, and some other items - when he got caught by the Green Berets, who

4 locked him up and beat him up. They accused him of having fired from the

5 rooftop of his house at the Green Berets. The Muslim who occupied the

6 apartment upstairs came up and said: I assert to you that nobody fired

7 any shots from the roof of my house today. I don't know how it came that

8 the chief of the police station in charge of the neighbourhood where I

9 lived got to know about this, and he got in touch with the Green Berets

10 and asked them to bring my son over to them.

11 One of those who was present when my elderly son was mistreated

12 was called by the police commander and who said: Bring Nebojsa over to

13 me. You should not lay your finger on him. And the other one did that

14 immediately. In fact, later on it was suggested that fingertips be --

15 fingerprints be taken of him to establish whether indeed shots were fired.

16 The police commander said: Nebojsa, I know that you were not responsible

17 for this, but then perhaps you should leave the area and go over to this

18 other area where the other police force was in charge. This was at the

19 time when the police force was already divided.

20 Q. What happened to your apartment in Sarajevo?

21 A. This was at Kozusko Brdo. This was an apartment belonging to the

22 Presidency. It was locked up for a while; it was even sealed. Later on,

23 when there was probably shortage of accommodation, they unsealed the

24 apartment and put up refugees in there. I don't know where they hailed

25 from. When I managed to get hold of the apartment - I went to great

Page 21525

1 lengths to do that; thanks to international assistance, I did - but the

2 apartment was completely destroyed. Since there -- I had some property in

3 Trebinje as well, I exchanged properties with a physician from Trebinje

4 and got an apartment in Sarajevo.

5 Q. So in the beginning of April of 1992, was it, that you and your

6 younger son and wife moved to Pale?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you arrived in Pale, what did you live on?

9 A. I went to the Red Cross.

10 [In English] Sorry.

11 [Interpretation] I went to the Red Cross, but since I thought that

12 I would be coming back, I did not really get ready and the apartment was

13 practically empty. I had to help my family survive. I went to the Red

14 Cross, and through the Red Cross I received aid in food and other

15 provisions.

16 Q. What about work? How did you set about finding a job?

17 A. Since I saw that it was not easy to get food from the Red Cross, I

18 heard that some high officials had come to Pale as well, and I looked them

19 up, and I first found Nikola Koljevic, the late Nikola Koljevic. Now, why

20 did I look him up first? I worked with him in the Presidency, I knew him

21 well, really well. Now, I can't remember who actually made this

22 suggestion -- well, they knew what my career had been. They first

23 suggested that I go to work in a magistrate's court, to organise the work

24 of that court. I worked there for about a month -- well, about a month,

25 yes.

Page 21526

1 Q. What happened in that month or after that month, in terms of a

2 job?

3 A. I went to work every day, and I helped. There were two women

4 judges, and I helped them organise the work of the misdemeanours court. I

5 went to the Red Cross regularly and I brought food in order to feed my

6 family.

7 Q. And how was it -- in what circumstances did you come to leave that

8 job and become government secretary?

9 A. I had a lot of people I knew in Pale, people who had gone out to

10 Pale. One day Trifo Komad came and he said that I was being asked to work

11 for the government and that I should report to Branko Djeric, the Prime

12 Minister. I should note that before that I had never seen Mr. Djeric

13 directly, I had only known of him through the media. The situation I

14 found there was one of an initial stage of organisation and work, so I

15 joined in.

16 Q. I think we can help put this into some form of time-frame by

17 having a look at this document.

18 MR. JOSSE: Could this be put on the ELMO.

19 Your Honour, this is a session of the National Security Council in

20 the government of Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated 27th of

21 April 1992, the 5th Session, as it's known, and it has been exhibited a

22 number of times in this case. I can give various numbers, if I need to.

23 JUDGE ORIE: If you give the simplest number, that's easiest.

24 MR. JOSSE: 583, I hope.

25 JUDGE ORIE: 583, thank you.

Page 21527

1 MR. JOSSE: It's the second page that we're going to need to look

2 at.

3 Q. We can see on the second page, can't we, Mr. Lakic, it says:

4 "Appointment and dismissal: Nenad Jovanovic is dismissed from the post of

5 government secretary and Nedeljko Lakic, a graduate lawyer, appointed to

6 it."

7 A. Yes, correct, yes.

8 Q. So this is --

9 A. The reason was that the gentleman we see here, Nenad Jovanovic,

10 also with a degree in law, he came to work in Pale and in this council

11 before me. He got sick, and after that he had a very serious operation,

12 eye operation. Perhaps it even ended tragically. So it was health

13 reasons.

14 MR. JOSSE: Now, could I have those documents back.

15 Q. A short while ago you told the Chamber that at about this time,

16 certainly March of 1992, the SDS were trying to remove you from your job

17 within the BiH government. Why was it --

18 A. No, not the BH government, the Presidency of the BH.

19 Q. I'm sorry, you're quite right to correct me. Either way, the -- a

20 job within the Presidency of the BiH. Why was it that you were appointed

21 to this senior position within the government of the Republika Srpska?

22 A. The reason was because they knew that I had been on that job for

23 about 20 years. Before I went to the Presidency, I was under-secretary of

24 the government -- or rather, the Executive Council, which was then the

25 government. And before that I always worked as a civil servant. Then I

Page 21528

1 went to work in the Presidency -- or rather, as secretary of the council.

2 This job, by its very nature, is the same like the -- that of

3 under-secretary of the Executive Council of the Socialist Republic of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Perhaps I'll be a bit immodest, but I should say that

5 it's purely professional reasons that led to my appointment. That is one

6 thing.

7 And then another matter: There was not a single lawyer there,

8 working there at the time -- well, this council will be discussed

9 subsequently. So there wasn't anyone who could really handle the job

10 except for this Nenad who, as I said, was very ill and had to go for this

11 urgent operation, urgent surgery, and I really don't know how it all ended

12 either.

13 Q. Tomorrow we will look at various documents that relate to the job

14 that you were appointed to. But before I ask you about that, could you

15 give the Chamber an overview of the job that you performed for the

16 Republika Srpska government in 1992.

17 A. During the course of 1992 or later, I was not a member of

18 government. That is to say that my appointment was not political. I was

19 only in charge of organising the work of the government and carrying out

20 the conclusions made at government sessions. By the very nature of this

21 job, it is professional.

22 Q. Give the Chamber some idea of the staff that you had at your

23 disposal as the senior civil servant in the government.

24 A. In 1992, there was only one woman working there. She does not

25 have a degree in law but she did have a university degree. And in

Page 21529

1 addition to that, there were three employees with secondary-school

2 education; a secretary and typists.

3 Q. What was the name of the woman who had a university degree?

4 A. Draginja Antelj is her name now, but I cannot remember her maiden

5 name right now, but her name now is Draginja Antelj.

6 Q. What function did Rajka Stanisic perform?

7 A. I'm not sure. Sometime in the beginning of May the government

8 went to Pale -- in fact, she never worked for the government officially.

9 Now, I'm not sure that she worked for the Presidency or the president of

10 the Assembly, I'm not quite sure now what she did, because we were

11 separated, physically. Say, we were 30 kilometres away, and there was

12 such a lot of work to be done. I can show you all the regulations that we

13 had to work on and that we did finish. I don't want to be immodest but I

14 think that I took part in at least 80 per cent of the regulations that

15 were published in the Official Gazette of Republika Srpska. Everybody

16 knows that my working hours were 18 a day. So I channeled my activities

17 in terms of the government conclusions and carrying them out. I can't

18 remember now exactly, but I think that at that time in 1992 about 90

19 government sessions were held. And believe it or not, at some sessions

20 there would be about 50 items on the agenda. It was an enormous job.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, after two or three lines on Rajko

22 Stanisic, the witness continued with totally different subjects. If that

23 is, of course, what you wanted to elicit from him, then I was wrong in

24 stopping him.

25 MR. JOSSE: No. Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 21530

1 JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps could you take a bit more control there

2 as well. I mean, you see after the fourth or the fifth line that, apart

3 from the distance, then he starts telling about his own functions, which

4 is not your question. Please proceed.

5 MR. JOSSE: Although it was a question I asked earlier.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but for the Chamber to follow the testimony,

7 we'd rather not combine questions and answers somewhere on the transcript

8 and rather have them in logical order.


10 Q. When you were first appointed government secretary, where was the

11 government physically located?

12 A. For a very short period of time, about ten days, it was in the

13 Kikinda building, and then the government moved from the Bistrica Hotel in

14 Jahorina.

15 Q. Why did it move there?

16 A. Because -- well, the government did not even have elementary

17 conditions for work in Kikinda. There wasn't even a proper meeting room,

18 and I think that the telephones weren't working either.

19 Q. So it's right, to confirm this, that the government moved to

20 Jahorina in May of 1992?

21 A. I think it was the beginning of May, but I cannot exactly recall

22 now.

23 Q. When you were appointed to the job, were members of the government

24 in place?

25 A. When I was appointed to the job - excuse me - I think that at that

Page 21531

1 moment there were three or four members of the government, with the Prime

2 Minister at the head of the government.

3 Q. We know that the Prime Minister was Branko Djeric. To what extent

4 did your job involve liaising with him?

5 A. By the very nature of this job, I had frequent contact with the

6 Prime Minister because, in agreement with the ministers in charge who had

7 been appointed in the meantime, he made proposals, and I agreed with him

8 when the session -- or rather, sessions would be held and what items would

9 be on the agenda. Then after the government sessions, I would make the

10 minutes, he would have a look at the minutes, and then we'd agree on its

11 implementation; namely, those materials that had to be published. If some

12 of these materials were regulations passed by the government, then they

13 would be prepared for publication in the Official Gazette. But if it was

14 laws and other documents that had to be adopted by the Assembly, then we

15 would make appropriate proposals and send them to the Assembly for

16 discussion, for a parliamentary debate.

17 Q. How often would you meet or liaise with the Prime Minister?

18 A. I've already said that there were about 95 sessions during the

19 course of 1992. Some sessions involved agendas of over 40 items. If all

20 of that were to be taken into account, it seems that there was a

21 government session held once a week. And that would mean that we were in

22 touch at least twice a week.

23 Q. I want you to obviously try and paint a picture here. How close

24 was your office to his?

25 A. Well, that's a big hotel. As far as I know, it can take about 300

Page 21532

1 to 400 tourists. I think I never entered his room, but we had these big

2 meeting rooms where we held our sessions, and that's where we usually had

3 meetings when we needed to agree on something.

4 Q. To what extent did your job involve liaison with the Presidency?

5 A. I never, well, had any contacts with the Presidency.

6 Q. Did that go for all the members of the Presidency; you had no

7 contact with them at all?

8 A. Well, it could be said that I did not have any official contacts,

9 but then whether I came across people like, say, the late Nikola Koljevic,

10 if that's what you mean by contact with the Presidency, too, then there

11 were contacts. But as for official contacts with the Presidency, no,

12 never.

13 Q. Now, it's apparent from the documents we've seen already that you

14 knew Mrs. Plavsic well because she had been the president of the council

15 to which you had previously been the secretary.

16 A. Correct. I knew Mrs. Plavsic very well because we worked together

17 in the Presidency, together with Mr. Koljevic. And we prepared sessions

18 of the Council for the Protection of the Constitutional Order. Sometimes

19 we had consultations for sessions of the Presidency, too, if they were not

20 held within the context of meetings of the council.

21 Q. What about Radovan Karadzic? To what extent did you have dealings

22 with him after you had become government secretary?

23 A. I cannot remember I ever had any contact with Radovan Karadzic. I

24 had no need and I had no contact. I didn't know him either. I didn't

25 know him personally until I came to Pale.

Page 21533

1 Q. What about Momcilo Krajisnik? Had you met him prior to your

2 arrival in Pale?

3 A. No, never. I didn't know Momcilo Krajisnik. I don't think I ever

4 had any personal contact with him. I only knew him from the media, when

5 sessions of the Assembly of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

6 were held.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I'm looking at the clock, and I have a

8 small matter to raise procedurally. If you would find a suitable moment

9 -- whether this would be a suitable moment --

10 MR. JOSSE: This would be a convenient moment, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lakic, we'll stop for the day. Is my impression

12 correct that you feel more at ease than you felt in the beginning?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Any beginning is difficult. I said

14 at the very beginning that I felt uneasy because this is the first time I

15 am a witness. So my behaviour is logical, and what the Honourable

16 President said, that I was speaking slowly, I was told to speak slowly

17 because this is being recorded, simultaneously interpreted, and so on.

18 Secondly, I wasn't sure, when questions were being put to me,

19 whether I was supposed to look at the Judge or to look at the person who

20 was putting questions to me, so there was a kind of confusion that

21 happened.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed that, and I also got the impression that

23 you feel better at ease now. And looking at the interpreters, I think

24 that your speed of speech is such that they can easily follow you, so just

25 take the speed you find comfortable, as I hope you do by now.

Page 21534

1 Mr. Lakic, we'll continue tomorrow. I'd like to instruct you not

2 to speak with anyone about the testimony you have given until now and

3 you're still about to give in the days to come. Mr. Lakic, we'd like to

4 see you back tomorrow afternoon, quarter past 2.00, in this same

5 courtroom. Would you please follow Madam Usher.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 JUDGE ORIE: The Defence responded on the 8th of March to the

8 omnibus order of the 2nd of March. I'd like to address that issue.

9 The Trial Chamber has yet to decide on the admission of certain

10 items in light of the Defence response of 8th of March, 2006, to the

11 omnibus order of the 2nd of March. Firstly, considering that the Defence,

12 in its response of the 2nd [sic] of March, noted that it does not wish to

13 have item D84 translated, this provisionally admitted item is no longer

14 eligible for admission and the exhibit number D84 is now available for

15 assignment to another exhibit.

16 MR. JOSSE: Did we use the word "wish," Your Honour? That

17 certainly was -- if I used that word in drafting the motion, I certainly

18 didn't intend it. It would not have that meaning in English.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that you are not able

20 to have it translated.

21 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then I correct what I said. In your response of the

23 2nd [sic] of March, you noted that it was not able to provide the Chamber

24 with a translation of D84 and that therefore this provisionally admitted

25 item is no longer eligible, because the consequences are the same.

Page 21535

1 MR. JOSSE: Indeed.


3 Secondly, considering that there has been no objection to the

4 admission of the items marked D133 and D138, the Chamber hereby admits

5 D133 and D138 in evidence.

6 Thirdly, regarding item D114, the Chamber requests the Defence to

7 submit the English version of D114 by the 20th of March.

8 Fourthly, regarding item D123, the Chamber hereby grants an

9 extension of ten days to the Defence to submit the item. The new deadline

10 for submission is Monday, the 27th of March.

11 Finally, regarding item D139, the Chamber regrets, having stated

12 in its omnibus order, that it had given the Defence guidance on the

13 question of its admission. In fact, we had not done so. The Chamber

14 hereby requests the Defence to submit the CD of the interview and a B/C/S

15 version of the transcript of the interview to the Chamber by Monday, the

16 27th of March.

17 This concludes the Chamber's comments on the Defence response of

18 the 8th of March.

19 Additionally, the Chamber would like to address the Defence

20 regarding the items provisionally marked with Prosecution exhibit numbers

21 during the examination of Witness Savkic. The Chamber requests the

22 Defence to inform the Chamber at the start of tomorrow's hearing, firstly,

23 which, if any, of the Savkic items is still -- it still opposes; and,

24 secondly, if one or more of these items are still being opposed by the

25 Defence, any final submissions the Defence might have in support of its

Page 21536

1 position.

2 MR. JOSSE: Thank you. That's clear.

3 Your Honour, the Chamber will still need to fix a date for

4 arguments so far as the Poplasen exhibits are concerned.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

6 MR. JOSSE: It would help me enormously if we were given a little

7 bit of time in relation to that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: If we now set a date at this very moment, will that

9 already give you some additional time?

10 MR. JOSSE: It will bring a smile to my face, thank you.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the Radojko list has now been

13 distributed between the parties so that we can deal with that efficiently,

14 not at this moment, but soon.

15 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn until tomorrow afternoon, quarter

17 past 2.00, same courtroom.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Friday, the 17th day of

20 March, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.