Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21913

1 Friday, 24 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I take it that you're informed by

6 Mr. Josse about the problems concerning the arrival and testimony of

7 Mr. Bjelica.

8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, yes. In fact, I was informed pretty

9 much straight away yesterday afternoon but in the circumstances it still

10 wasn't feasible for us to get together and resolve all that yesterday. So

11 thank you for the opportunity of considering it overnight.

12 Your Honour, the Defence position is that we -- we are -- we are

13 unwilling, we do not wish, please, to give up any of that valuable time

14 between the 4th of April and the date the 11th on which the Trial Chamber

15 is expecting Mr. Krajisnik to begin his evidence. So that really is --

16 that, we hope, gives the Trial Chamber, well, helpful steer on where the

17 Defence stands in relation to Mr. Bjelica.

18 As far as Mr. Bjelica's arrival is concerned, on examination, that

19 letter from Bosnia and Herzegovina is clearly not saying that there is any

20 non-compliance with the conditions for a 90 bis order. It is clearly not

21 saying that Mr. Bjelica cannot be brought here because at the end of the

22 letter the offer is really very clearly made, that if this Trial Chamber

23 maintains the 90 bis order then he will be brought here.

24 Your Honour, Mr. Josse indicated yesterday some of the extremely

25 unsatisfactory aspects of videolink from the Defence point of view.

Page 21914

1 Mr. Josse's position as described yesterday remains the position this

2 morning, and I've also had an opportunity of talking briefly to

3 Mr. Krajisnik before Your Honours came into court. He also is against the

4 videolink of this witness. So I put that in the scales, Your Honour, it

5 is a point.

6 So our position is that, Your Honour. We do not wish, please, to

7 give up that valuable time in early April, and we do not wish Mr. Bjelica

8 to be dealt with by videolink.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart, isn't there an English saying that

10 you can't have your cake and eat it? I'm wondering because there are two

11 problems. The first problem is whether we could get Mr. Bjelica here in

12 such time that -- that he could be examined before the 4th of April. And

13 at the same time that in your schedule I see no further room for any

14 further witnesses.

15 MR. STEWART: In the Trial Chamber's schedule, Your Honour, in

16 effect. Yes. "You can't have your cake and eat it" is an English phrase

17 not often applied in trials of this nature but it does apply from time to

18 time.

19 Your Honour, that is the position. I can't disagree with what

20 Your Honour says. In the schedule, in the Trial Chamber schedule which we

21 are operating with Your Honour is quite right. There is no place for

22 Mr. Bjelica as things stand.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's the first problem. And the second

24 problem, if you would if you would refrain from another witness or if you

25 would refrain from taking time. You say you would prefer not to do that.

Page 21915

1 I understand that's where you want to have the cake and eat it. You would

2 like to have an extra piece of cake. Is that --

3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm not going to -- please, with

4 respect, Your Honour, I'm not going to adopt that phrase in relation to

5 the Defence's position at all. Your Honour may take whatever view

6 Your Honour wishes as to cakes and eating. I'm just -- I state the

7 Defence's position, Your Honour, and I'm not going to accept with respect

8 any labels about cakes to what we're saying.

9 The position, Your Honour, is this: That I haven't -- well, I've

10 considered. I've had a chance to consider and I've taken that chance

11 myself whether whatever the practicality is of getting Mr. Bjelica here,

12 whether another witness should move out to make room for Mr. Bjelica.

13 But, Your Honour, that is something which I certainly would need to

14 discussion with Mr. Krajisnik for more than a couple of minutes which we

15 have the opportunity to do as we come into court in the morning. That's

16 a -- that is a technical possibility, Your Honour. I say no more than

17 that. Of course it is. I don't know whether Mr. Bjelica could be got

18 here as the earliest possible date. I simply don't know that at the

19 moment. It's obviously not Monday or Tuesday, so the next witness isn't

20 going to move over for Mr. Bjelica, but there aren't all that many

21 candidates anyway as -- in the time frame up to the 4th of April.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One second, please.

23 [Trial Chamber confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, during the next break the Chamber will

25 have an another look to the calendar. I announced already that there is a

Page 21916

1 small chance that the Chamber will grant a couple of days extra for very

2 specific reasons. The schedule has to be changed for other reasons as

3 well since on the 29th of March, next Wednesday, there is a Plenary. And

4 although we did our utmost best to move to another moment or we even asked

5 permission not to attend the Plenary but that's not permitted, that means

6 that we are not sitting next Wednesday anyhow, so that the 4th will most

7 likely become the 5th or even the 6th or the 7th.

8 We will inform you, keeping in mind your wishes. We'll inform you

9 after the first break.

10 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. And it's extremely helpful

11 to have advance notice about next Wednesday. We're grateful for that.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any other procedural matter?

13 MR. STEWART: Not from me, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

15 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we meanwhile received the 65 ter summary in

17 relation to Mr. Krsman.

18 Mr. Josse, I couldn't say that all my concerns in relation to what

19 I said yesterday have disappeared by reading the whole of it. It's

20 again -- the Chamber finds crimes committed by other parties in the

21 conflict not without significance, but the attention to be paid to it

22 should be limited unless there's a good legal reason to raise the issue.

23 I mean, we all know that tu quoque is not an issue. That's one. The

24 second is that the Prosecutor who prosecutes crimes committed by all

25 nationalities before -- not before this Chamber but before the Tribunal

Page 21917

1 does not dispute from what I understand that serious crimes are committed

2 by other parties as well, and perhaps even as we recently heard, crimes

3 perhaps even committed in proximity, in proximity of the crimes that were

4 committed allegedly in this case.

5 Is that a correct reflection, Mr. Tieger?

6 MR. TIEGER: It is, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, therefore, apart from the importance of

8 learning how people, how the population may have reacted to what happened

9 to them, that that is not the core of the case, although not -- I wouldn't

10 say not unimportant, not irrelevant, but it's not the core of the case.

11 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, with respect, had predicted my

12 response in effect. The Chamber allowed the Prosecution to call evidence

13 from a number of sources about the suggestion that Mr. Krajisnik

14 encouraged Serbs leave Sarajevo after Dayton. In our submission, the

15 evidence of these brutal civilian killings supports the proposition that

16 it was a spontaneous decision by the Serb population of Sarajevo to leave

17 after Dayton in part because of the way they had been treated by their

18 Muslim neighbours, and we submit that, bearing in mind the evidence, this

19 Chamber allowed the Prosecution to call on that not unimportant issue, we,

20 the Defence, are allowed to explore exactly how Serbs in Sarajevo were

21 treated by their Muslim neighbours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber is aware that -- that this is part

23 of the Prosecution's case, that Mr. Krajisnik encouraged Serbs to leave

24 after Dayton. At the same time, again I got the impression, but please

25 correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Tieger, that this specific aspect is of a

Page 21918

1 relatively marginal importance for the case.

2 MR. TIEGER: I think that accurately characterises the situation.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Josse, perhaps it could get the

4 attention, the time which is in balance with the importance of that aspect

5 of the case.

6 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, as Your Honour rightly reminded me

7 yesterday, Your Honours run this case and Your Honours are going to decide

8 this case. If Your Honours say to the Defence that this is not an issue

9 of any importance whatsoever, then we will not pursue the matter.


11 MR. JOSSE: But, with respect, to say that something is of

12 marginal importance to the case does not help the Defence one jot in this

13 regard. It simply is a meaningless expression, I submit. Proper guidance

14 as to where this issue lies is fine. In other words, if the Chamber says

15 it's not going to be held against Mr. Krajisnik, it's not a consideration,

16 it's not a factor, you the Defence don't need to worry about it, that's

17 fine. But otherwise, Your Honour, I submit the expression "marginal

18 importance" is simply meaningless, nebulous, and not really very fair to

19 us in how we consider how to tackle the body of evidence that the

20 Prosecution presented against our client.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, it is all a matter of balance. It's the

23 same as if you'd spent a lot of time to some events in some places and

24 says if it's not held against us then we'll not deal with it, but

25 otherwise we'll spend ten days of evidence on that, because at this part

Page 21919

1 of the Prosecution's case. So fundamentally we do not disagree, but we

2 know that we're talking about events during approximately two years in

3 well over 30 municipalities. That requires to prioritise, to spend more

4 attention to this aspect, to spend more attention to that aspect.

5 The Chamber had the impression that this was a matter which the

6 balance of the whole of the events should not take, well, let's say 20 per

7 cent of the time. And if I said margin, of course, everything that is in

8 the margin is still there, is still part of that case, but it's a matter

9 of finding a balance on spending time more or less on this or on another

10 matter.

11 And I sought confirmation with the Prosecution to see what place

12 this element took in their case. Of course, if you'd say this element,

13 that's for the Defence really of such importance that we'd rather spend

14 more time on that than anything else, entirely you're free to do it. But

15 your time is limited, and therefore why a profound reflection on what is

16 most important and less important needs to be done, and I leave that to

17 the Defence because it's finally not this Chamber but you and your

18 responsibility to Mr. Krajisnik which is determining to spend time on

19 what.

20 I just wondered whether the Chamber would find this element of

21 such importance that it would spend major part of its judgement on this

22 matter or that it would get a place in the whole of the case, which is

23 limited.

24 MR. JOSSE: I imagine we say we wonder that as well, Your Honour,

25 but I don't suppose the Court is going to help us with --

Page 21920

1 JUDGE ORIE: No, of course -- Mr. Josse, you couldn't expect us at

2 this moment to express any -- it's just a first impression of elements, of

3 aspects of the case, and I can imagine that the Defence is struggling with

4 the issue, the issue of -- to spend how much time on what aspects of the

5 case, to go into detail on point A and to go less in detail on point B.

6 The Prosecution has to do it. I think the Defence, since time is

7 not unlimited, will have to do the same.

8 I'll ask Madam Usher to call the witness into the courtroom,

9 and --

10 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I just express my appreciation of

12 the switch to Monday afternoon which has been most helpful. I know that

13 took quite a lot of organising and is much appreciated by the Defence.


15 [The witness entered court]


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Krsman. I'm afraid your headphones

19 are going to fall off if you keep it that way. Yes. Mr. Krsman, please

20 be seated.

21 I would like to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn

22 declaration you have given yesterday at the beginning of your testimony,

23 and before I give the opportunity to Mr. Josse to continue his examination

24 if chief, Judge Hanoteau would like to put a question to you.

25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I have a question that -- [no

Page 21921

1 interpretation].

2 [In English] -- numbered 10.000 inhabitants of Muslim ethnicity.

3 Most of their housing was illegal little constructed.

4 [Interpretation] In the following paragraph.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand there are problems with the

6 translation. One second, please.

7 Mr. Registrar, have the translation issues been resolved?

8 MR. JOSSE: I think the position was, Your Honour, that I didn't

9 have my headphones on.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I was listening to it. I heard the

11 French.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has it been resolved by now? Okay. I do

13 understand that the matter has been resolved, so we'll ask

14 Judge Hanoteau --

15 MR. STEWART: -- makes a comment, Your Honour, because from this

16 limited area I have some advantage over my co-counsel. The witness

17 doesn't know what a 65 ter summary is with respect, Your Honour, so it is

18 a little bit disconcerting to be thrown straight into that.

19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [No interpretation].

20 MR. JOSSE: I'm only getting the French.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Are you on the right channel?

22 MR. JOSSE: As Mr. Stewart indicates. Channel 4?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Should be English.

24 MR. STEWART: We are on channel 4 and we are getting French, Your

25 Honour.

Page 21922

1 JUDGE ORIE: And I'm on channel and I get English.

2 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Stewart's French is better than mine, sadly.

3 MR. TIEGER: I'm experiencing precisely the same --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, the interpreter apologises but the

5 system was set up on channel 9 for English, that's why, in the French

6 booth. That goes both way, which is why there was a problem. Now it's

7 okay. I'm on channel 4 four English, so Judge Hanoteau can ask the

8 question.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] It was a complicated start. I'm

10 sorry about that, but -- it was a bit tedious but we'll get there.

11 So yesterday you mentioned a change in the people's make-up in

12 their population's make-up, something that was -- something that you could

13 really see at the beginning of the war. We were told, if I remember

14 right, I think you said there were about 20.000 Muslims who suddenly

15 settled in an area that used to be with a Serb majority. And this is my

16 question: Why was there this change in the population make-up

17 composition? So did those Muslims come to settle in that area? Was it

18 because there were factories that were set up, there was a need for

19 labour? I'd like to know exactly why these people came, these Muslims

20 came.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness. Microphone for the

22 witness. It's on now. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Krsman.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This sudden boom and increase in the

25 number of Muslims was aimed at changing the structure between the ratio of

Page 21923

1 Muslims, Serbs, and Croats, as well as a huge pressure on the Serb

2 population to become more dominant through work, through our enlargement,

3 because we Serbs could not obtain licenses to build houses. I personally,

4 and my father who had two sons, me and my brother, we could not obtain a

5 licence to build a house on our plot of land on which we had lived for 500

6 years, and they could build illegally and nobody pays the problem to them.

7 Sarajevo is a big town. These people came from elsewhere. At that

8 time, we did not see that as a political problem. However, the war proved

9 that this was a political move aimed at destroying us as a people.

10 However, they did not succeed, thank God. They succeeded in another way,

11 and that was after the Dayton Accords when we all moved out. And I hope

12 that the situation is now clear, that my answer was clear.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. This answer is very clear.

14 Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

16 Examination by Mr. Josse: [Continued]

17 Q. Mr. Krsman, when we broke off yesterday, you were telling the

18 Chamber about the collection of weapons from the Rajlovac barracks in

19 approximately March of 1992. You've described how that happened. You had

20 mentioned that it was implemented by a Colonel Miletic. And in addition

21 to that, you had mentioned that the agreement to do this had been brokered

22 by the Crisis Staff of both communities.

23 Could you give some more details about how it was agreed, firstly

24 the Serbs should collect some firearms and thereafter the Muslims?

25 A. The condition for -- for this was our closeness. My house was

Page 21924

1 next to a Muslim house, and our village was next to this Muslim village.

2 The next reason for this agreement was the fact that Mr. Krajisnik

3 lived in Zabrdje and because of good neighbourly relations and his

4 persistence, insistence that this should happen. We lived with the local

5 Muslims who had arrived there in the '70s, and we had agreed this

6 arrangement, and we agreed something else which we implemented. We took

7 explosives from the barracks, and we planted mines between us and them in

8 the length of five kilometres for safety and security reasons, so as to

9 prevent the extremists from doing that possibly.

10 Q. I'm stopping you because that's going ahead a little bit in the

11 narrative I was going to ask you about in a moment's time. Was the

12 implementation of the agreement that I'm interested in, not so much the

13 implementation, but who brokered the community between the communities

14 that the weapons in the barracks should be shared?

15 A. This was agreed by the Crisis Staffs in agreement with the

16 barracks commander, Mr. Miletic.

17 Q. And who decided which firearms and other weapons should go to

18 which community, and how many particular guns or whatever each community

19 was entitled to?

20 A. Every community received as much as they had able-bodied men. We

21 received 202 rifles because that's how many we were. They were more

22 numerous, and they received more than 800 rifles. We received only light

23 weapons because there were no heavy weapons in the barracks. At that

24 point, we never imagined that there could be an escalation of the conflict

25 and that we would have to use heavy weaponry. Even the light weaponry was

Page 21925

1 just a deterrent, and it was to be returned to the barracks like it was

2 done after manoeuvres that had been organised in the past. And this is

3 the way the Territorial Defence was organised in the first place.

4 Q. In the against you gave a few moments ago, you begun to tell the

5 Chamber that after the weapons had been collected a minefield was laid

6 between --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, before we go to that, of course I'm

8 addressing you, I know that the witness has no 65 ter, I noticed and I

9 would like you to explore on that matter since it seems very much the core

10 of the answer of the witness that there was an unbalance, 202 against 806

11 which he explains by saying that there were 202 able men. The 202, at

12 least in the 65 ter summary, from the witness's village, that's at least

13 what the 65 ter summary says, we also heard that the village was almost

14 purely Serb and at the same time the 806 appears. I wonder what that

15 number covered, the village only? Could you please explore that.

16 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, yes, I will happily do that.


18 MR. JOSSE: Could I at the next convenient moment address the

19 Court about the 65 ter in general? I'm quite happy to deal with

20 Your Honour's issue --


22 MR. JOSSE: -- because, if I might say, it's a sensible one and one

23 I'd like to pursue.



Page 21926

1 Q. So the 202 men of Serb ethnicity who received firearms, where

2 exactly did they come from?

3 A. All these men resided in Zabrdje. Out of a thousand inhabitants,

4 there were 202 able-bodied men. The rest were women and children who did

5 not fall under any military obligation.

6 Q. And what about those of Muslim ethnicity, the 800-odd firearms?

7 Where did they come from?

8 A. They were all from Sokolje. The only difference between them and

9 us is their families are more numerous. I worked during the census, and I

10 know that each of them had four or five or even more children. Out of

11 some 10.000 inhabitants, about 800 of them were able-bodied men, and those

12 were the people who received weapons.

13 Q. And why were the villages of Zabrdje and Sokolje the two villages

14 that were selected to receive those weapons? Why not other villages, for

15 example, the west side of the barracks?

16 A. I can't answer your question. I only know and I can tell you that

17 we were the closest. Our village was the closest to the separation line,

18 and that is why we were chosen. And I can't tell you anything about other

19 areas or other villages.

20 Q. May I move on to the laying of the minefield. You'd begun to

21 give some evidence about this --

22 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Mr. Josse, of course you've

23 explored that as I asked you to do. At the same time from arithmetics

24 it's still very complicated because 800 able-bodied men on a population of

25 10.000 makes families of an average of 11 persons or 10 or 11 persons

Page 21927

1 which is not consistent with what the witness told us where he said that

2 the families were larger, three, four, even more children. To make that

3 an average of 9 or 10 persons a family is quite surprising. That means

4 that the explanation from a point of view of arithmetics in particulars is

5 not very satisfactory. If you say, well, I'm not going to explore that

6 any further, but it leaves an opportunity open that on an average -- well,

7 family size -- well, let's say six persons a family which makes every

8 family five -- four children as an average, then I still would have at

9 least -- I would have 1.600 fathers. And, of course, it depends on where

10 children are not children any more, but it's -- it's still rather vague

11 and not entirely clear to me. I leave it up to you whether you want to

12 further explore the matter.


14 Q. Well, the best I can do is you've heard what the learned Judge has

15 to said and I see you nodding, Mr. Krsman. Perhaps you could deal with

16 the point he has just raised.

17 A. With pleasure. I was the president of the commission for census

18 in 1991 in Rajlovac municipality, and I was also in charge of the census

19 in Sokolje. In that village there were households and addresses where up

20 to 20 people were registered. In that village, there were over a thousand

21 pupils and students who had arrived from Sandzak, Zepa, Srebrenica, who

22 were educated in Sarajevo, who were students in Sarajevo and were not

23 military conscripts. They were just registered at those addresses. And

24 that is why the number was so huge, 10.000, although not all 10.000 of

25 them and resided there all the time. They didn't work there all the time.

Page 21928

1 There were also a lot of elderly people who had sold their property in

2 their places of origin, and then they built houses in Sokolje and

3 registered as residents of Sokolje.

4 I'm sure that 806 of them received rifles, and I know. I

5 witnessed that, that this is certainly the number situation that was

6 present in Sokolje.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That explains at least to some extent the --

8 the problems I had. Please proceed.


10 Q. What exactly did you witness? Which part of this procedure of

11 taking weapons from the barracks did you witness?

12 A. I personally with ten persons from Zabrdje and ten persons from

13 Sokolje took the explosives and together we planted the area between

14 Sokolje and Zabrdje. We planted the mines and we went into the depth of

15 our territory. We planted mines across my property. We did not want to

16 go to the separation line, but we moved a bit further towards our side in

17 order to gain trust and demonstrate that we were not plotting any attack

18 on our neighbours.

19 Q. Where did the mines that you planted come from?

20 A. They were from the Rajlovac barracks depot.

21 Q. Did the inhabitants of Sokolje plant any mines as far as you were

22 aware?

23 A. I don't think so. Not before that time. And afterwards, I really

24 don't know.

25 Q. In an answer you gave earlier, you said that this was done for

Page 21929

1 safety and security reasons so as to present -- I beg you pardon, so as to

2 prevent the extremists from doing that possibly. What extremists were you

3 referring to?

4 A. We knew that in Zabrdje there was nobody who had come from

5 elsewhere, but we knew very well that in Sokolje there were people who did

6 not wish well to our state, who had come from elsewhere and wanted to

7 create a problem, and that is why we agreed all that. And our fears were

8 proven during the war. Throughout the war we remained united. Nobody

9 ever came to our help. And as for them, they were helped by all sorts of

10 people. And I'm sure there were other sorts of people who were better

11 suited to approve that. I'm not the best suited, and it is not my

12 intention to talk about that.

13 Q. Could you be given the map that was presented yet that hasn't yet

14 been given a number. Could you be given a black pen, and could you mark

15 where you planted the minefield, please.

16 A. The black line is the line on which mines were planted, the whole

17 line.

18 Q. How long did it take you to complete that task?

19 A. This is a very delicate job, and we did not have enough

20 professionals. It took us three days to plant all those mines. Every day

21 when we planted a certain quantity of mines, we secured those mines until

22 we completed the job.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, may I ask one clarification?

24 Mines are now dealt with after the weapons being given to both

25 Serbs, 200, and 800 Muslims. You told us that that was agreed upon. This

Page 21930

1 planting mines, was that part of an agreement as well?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Has this agreement -- was it an oral agreement or has

4 ever anything been put on paper, are you aware of?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was an oral agreement, and we

6 signed a receipt for all the weapons and the mines that we got from the

7 barracks. We did it. Each of us did it for ourselves, both Serbs and

8 Muslims.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When it was mutually agreed that these mines

10 would be planted, why did your people plant them, or did you do it

11 together with the Sokolje Muslims?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We planted the mines. The Muslims

13 from Sokolje agreed to that, and they supervised us from a distance of

14 some 50 to a hundred metres. We did not encounter a single problem.

15 There were no incidents during that job.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


18 Q. There was an incident in Bjelice; is that correct?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, are you referring to Bjelice or -- because

20 Bjelica is --

21 MR. JOSSE: I am, Bjelice.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we've found it on the map.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The incident was not in Bjelice but

24 close to the Bozica gas station at the time.


Page 21931

1 Q. Using the pointer, show the Chamber where the Bozica gas station

2 is?

3 A. Here, where it reads "17."

4 Q. Let me give you this map as well, please. We --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Josse, first of all, I think that the

6 coloured map has not received a number yet.

7 MR. JOSSE: I'm grateful to --

8 JUDGE ORIE: That would be --

9 THE REGISTRAR: D153, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: D153. And then looking at this other map, that's a

11 map which is already in evidence?

12 MR. JOSSE: Well, yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: It's the -- it's related to the testimony we heard

14 about Ahatovici, I think.

15 MR. JOSSE: Correct. And it's -- I'm grateful again to my learned

16 friends who prosecute. They provided us with a coloured copy of the map

17 that's been marked. I could give the exhibit number. I think it may be

18 D364, but ...

19 JUDGE ORIE: I'll have a look.

20 MR. JOSSE: Could Your Honour give me one moment.


22 MR. JOSSE: Or even 386. I'm not sure. But the problem is,

23 Your Honour, that map is heavily marked and clearly --


25 MR. JOSSE: I don't want even to put that map in front of the

Page 21932

1 witness. What in fact has happened, there's no secret, Mr. Krajisnik very

2 helpfully has provided me with that map he must have been given at the

3 time that evidence was called. He hasn't marked it, and that's why we're

4 using it.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, you could present it to the witness and

6 give it another number.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if it's helpful I'm advised that that's

8 P386.

9 MR. JOSSE: Thank you. Could I just have that map back for one

10 moment, Madam Usher, please.

11 I'm wrong. They're not identical. I suspect, Your Honour, they

12 are from the same map, but they are different -- they cover different

13 areas. 386 and this map cover slightly different areas.


15 MR. JOSSE: In other words, they're different extracts from the

16 same map.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, most important is that we find the map on

18 which the gas station can be located.

19 MR. JOSSE: Exactly.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Take whatever one. And I think marking with numbers

21 is -- I don't know of course. Perhaps it's not of major importance at

22 this moment.

23 MR. JOSSE: One other suggestion --

24 JUDGE ORIE: How important is it to know exactly the location? Is

25 that of vital importance?

Page 21933

1 MR. JOSSE: It's not, but what we do have is we have a black and

2 white copy of 386 that has not been marked. Perhaps we could use that and

3 I have lots of copies of it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Do what you wish, and also keep in mind if the

5 location is not of vital importance, we could --

6 Mr. Registrar, this black and white map would receive --

7 THE REGISTRAR: D154, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.


10 Q. Well, using the marker, the black marker, could you show us where

11 the petrol station is?

12 A. So the petrol station was on the main road from Vogosca towards

13 Sarajevo. So that's the main road I'm talking about under Brijesce hill,

14 exactly at this point here.

15 Q. Put a cross there or a -- it may be the learned Judge would rather

16 you put a number. Just wait one moment.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you'd make that -- well, could we give a

18 letter which adds G for gas station.

19 MR. JOSSE: P for petrol station, please, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, P for petrol station. Yes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And could we zoom in so we know exactly where it is.


24 Q. Right. What happened there, please, Mr. Krsman?

25 A. Well, that event accelerated the escalation of the conflict in our

Page 21934

1 parts to a great extent, and the extremists on the Muslim side, in seeking

2 a reason to violate the truce and agreement, they said that there were

3 Chetniks at the petrol pump, and they set an ultimatum as far as I know

4 that all the weapons should be handed over from the Rajlovac barracks, and

5 then they attacked this Bozica pump because they made up -- that up from

6 these rear portions around Sokolje. And there was fighting there and some

7 people were killed and others wounded.

8 Q. When was this?

9 A. This happened in the month of March. Yes, March. From the 15th

10 to the 30th of March.

11 Q. Was this before or after the collection of the weapons from the

12 barracks?

13 A. That was after the weapons were collected from the barracks.

14 Q. And when did this happen in relation to the laying of the

15 minefield?

16 A. Also after the mines were planted and according to our knowledge,

17 once they'd seen at that there were weapons in the barracks they wanted to

18 put an ultimatum in that way and to be able to seize the other weapons

19 that were certainly still in the barracks.

20 Q. Again, I'm going to move on. Mr. Krsman, as far as you are

21 concerned, when did the war start in Rajlovac?

22 A. The war in Rajlovac started exactly on the 8th of May, and the

23 frontal attack came from all sides, from all axes along the edges of my

24 village, Zabrdje, and the barracks.

25 Q. We're going to deal with that in a moment. What I'd like you to

Page 21935

1 tell the Chamber about before we deal with that attack is your state of

2 readiness, the Serb state of readiness. What had your preparations been

3 like? What were your weapons like, that sort of thing, on the eve of the

4 8th of May?

5 A. Well, the very fact that we did not have a single trench dug and

6 that all of the population, the women and children still lived in Zabrdje,

7 and that we had no plan for evacuation or anything like that in case of

8 attack and that we only had those 200 rifles speaks for itself, tells you

9 whether we thought it would be something serious and whether or not the

10 crisis would escalate.

11 Q. At that point was anyone living in the barracks as far as you were

12 aware?

13 A. After this attack at the pump, at the petrol station in Bozica,

14 all the Serb inhabitants who lived along the road, if the Trial Chamber

15 still has the map before them, so all the inhabitants living along this

16 road here were Serbs by ethnicity, and they moved to the barracks. They

17 left their homes to the mercy of the Muslims because they were afraid that

18 what happened at Bozic petrol pump would be repeated. And I would say

19 that that meant about 200 inhabitants because there were about 50 to a

20 hundred Serb households, perhaps a little more. In order to seek

21 protection and safety there.

22 Q. Using the map, if it helps, show what military activity started

23 the fighting on the 8th of May.

24 A. On this map you can see -- or, rather, on the previous main showed

25 you where we had planted the mines, but here you can see that they

Page 21936

1 attacked the entire area along the separation line. This is where my

2 house is, this is the exact point last point, the last black dot up there.

3 And the mortar shells killed my next-door neighbour when they fell. And

4 on that particular day, over 50 mortar shells fell on the village, and we

5 had one casualty. One person was killed and two people were lightly

6 wounded.

7 My brother and I pulled out our children, and we never returned to

8 the house again.

9 As far as the Rajlovac barracks is concerned, they targeted all

10 the buildings you can see here, and there are 20 to 30 of them, and the

11 attacks were most fierce where the arms depot was located. And according

12 to what we learnt later on, the Muslims who were officers in the Rajlovac

13 barracks were in charge of the shooting operation and they became

14 commanders later of companies, battalions, and so on.

15 Q. How did you learn that the Muslims in charge of the barracks were

16 involved in the initial shooting operation?

17 A. As the communications were still working at that time and some of

18 our officers who were down there and stayed there for those ten days until

19 the 15th of May told us that they were people who had served their -- done

20 their military service in the Rajlovac barracks, and when I collected up

21 the weapons I personally saw six Muslims who were down there, who were

22 still down there in the army doing their regular military service, and

23 they left before the 8th of May. They left Rajlovac barracks before the

24 8th of May.

25 Q. You mentioned your neighbour who was killed. What was his name?

Page 21937

1 A. His name was Boro Bjelica, and he was killed exactly in front of

2 his house, on his property, before the eyes of his two small children.

3 Q. And Mr. Bjelica - I imagine I can lead on this - was in fact

4 president of the local SDS; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, and he was -- the place is called Bjelice as you saw on the

6 map, and this was named after him because he was president of the SDS and

7 he was a man who could rally people together.

8 Q. As far as you were aware, was the fact that he was killed a

9 coincidence or was it deliberate because of the position that he held or

10 don't you know?

11 A. I can't believe that it was deliberate.

12 Q. Did you just say that Bjelice was named after this particular

13 individual?

14 A. Well, not by this particular individual but probably his

15 ancestors, his grandfather or great grandfather. You have another village

16 like Lemezi. This takes the name of the family that lived there for many,

17 many years, hundred of years. So that's what I meant.

18 Q. Thank you. That clarifies the matter. I'm not sure I've asked

19 you this: Approximately how many people do you think were living in the

20 barracks as of the 8th of May?

21 A. As of the 8th of May -- well, on the 8th of May, there were just a

22 few officers and their families who had in the succeeded in evacuating,

23 and some of the civilians also who were working in the Rajlovac barracks.

24 After the 8th of May, every day, every single day quite literally,

25 civilians turned up who were fleeing Muslim torture from parts of Sarajevo

Page 21938

1 where the Muslims were the majority population and from the areas under

2 Muslim control, and this number varied from several hundred to several

3 thousand.

4 Q. You mentioned that your -- you and your family had to evacuate

5 your house. Why was it that you were unable to return? And it may seem a

6 silly question, but I think I should ask it.

7 A. We were unable to return for a very simple reason. My house was

8 up at the front line. And not only my own house but my relatives' houses

9 as well. And that meant that all the houses and people living up at the

10 front line had to leave their homes not to lose their lives, quite simply.

11 And we didn't dare risk that much.

12 Q. Where did your wife and children go?

13 A. As my mother through force of circumstance was born at Pale, my

14 relatives and family went to stay with my uncle at Pale.

15 Q. Did you go there with them?

16 A. No. Not a single able bodied man left in those first two or three

17 months. And later on, very few people escaped or deserted.

18 Q. After the attack that you have described, how did you set about

19 defending yourself?

20 A. Well, it was like this: It was a terrible shock. We just

21 couldn't believe that anything like that could happen. And since we

22 didn't have a single trench in the village let alone any communicating

23 trenches or any military formations of that kind and we didn't have any

24 able-bodied men either that would be capable of setting up a defence line,

25 we had to withdraw quite literally 500 metres into the depth of our

Page 21939

1 territory and along the main road going through the village, and we left

2 this space as no man's land which about one kilometre in length.

3 Q. What -- in the first month of the war, tell it us about the

4 military formation in Rajlovac on the Serbian side.

5 A. As I've already said, all you had in Rajlovac were high-ranking

6 military officers who were professors, and their families, and there were

7 the guards or, rather, a unit, I didn't know how many men it numbered,

8 which provided security for the barracks, and they were there until the

9 15th, 16th or 17th, or rather, I know that the commander Miletic left by

10 helicopter on the 15th whereas the rest left in a military convoy and went

11 towards -- from Pale towards Serbia. At the beginning of the convoy or at

12 the front of the convoy you had a Praga with a three-barrel -- with three

13 barrels, and this was followed by the trucks with the families of those

14 soldiers and at the rear there was another Praga and a three-barrelled

15 device. And from that day on in the Rajlovac barracks there were not more

16 than five officers who were waiting. They didn't have any transport or

17 they were from other republics such as Macedonia, for example, or

18 Montenegro. But as time went by, they left, too, and then we asked that

19 our officers who were born in Bosnia, especially born on our territory, we

20 asked have them sent, and so from August and September 1992 to the end of

21 the war we wanted to have our military cadres and officers that were loyal

22 to our lands, the lands that we had inhabited for centuries.

23 Q. My question was specifically about your military formations and

24 the nature of the defence force as it was in the first month of the war,

25 the defence force that you were a part of. Tell the Chamber something

Page 21940

1 about the nature of the organisation of the defence force, how it rated

2 with a modern army in your estimation, that type of thing.

3 A. As I've already said, in Zabrdje we organised ourselves in the

4 following way with people who lived in Zabrdje: In the Rajlovac barracks,

5 people I said a moment ago who had come in from Brijesce to the Rajlovac

6 barracks. And they set up a unit which had the strength of a company, and

7 we in Zabrdje also established a unit which was of company strength. But

8 even then we didn't have any special communications nor did we have

9 battalions or brigades. We were not able to believe we were facing what

10 we were facing. And as time went by until the army of Republika Srpska

11 was formed, the situation improved militarily speaking and pursuant to the

12 rules and regulations after military service, but until then we were a

13 sort of village watch, nothing more than that.

14 Q. And to what extent were the JNA supplying you with arms in that

15 first month?

16 A. The weapons we had were weapons we found in the barracks and those

17 issued in March 1992. We didn't have any other weapons, nor did any other

18 weapons come in to us, nor did I have any information that in those first

19 months of the war that we needed any in fact.

20 Q. I'd like to show you some documents that we've got. Firstly, this

21 bundle.

22 MR. JOSSE: Would Your Honour give me a moment.

23 Q. In fact, Mr. Krsman, there appears to be two identical documents

24 here, although they bear different Tribunal numbers, and they clearly are

25 slightly different. One is a facsimile, and the other is not. They

Page 21941

1 appear to say the same thing?

2 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour might want one numbered with an A and the

3 other a B or something akin to that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D155, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And then the -- the one with the TX report on the top

7 would be then D155A, and the other would be D155B.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That's the one dated 9 May 1992.



11 Q. Firstly, had you seen this document before coming to The Hague?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Now you've had a chance to look at it, does it mean anything to

14 you, bearing in mind the date?

15 A. Well, a few moments ago I was talking about the attack launched by

16 the Muslims on the 8th of May on my village and the surrounding parts, and

17 from this date I can see that this is the 9th of May, which means that it

18 was sent on -- prior to that to the European Community, which means that

19 on the 8th of May the Muslims consciously made that ultimatum before

20 attacking.

21 Q. And what does this -- what did you understand this ultimatum to

22 be?

23 A. It says here quite clearly, you can see that there are no Muslims

24 from Sokolje. It says Muslims from Buljakov Potok, which mean the fringes

25 of Sokolje, not towards Zabrdje but in-depth in their territory. And they

Page 21942

1 had given an ultimatum to us, the Serbs of Rajlovac, and the Serbs from

2 Sokolje Brdo, which means me, that we should cross over to their Muslim

3 Territorial Defence, which is beyond belief. If it were not farcical it

4 would be sad.

5 Q. And I'd also like you to have a look, please, at this document.

6 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, there are again two documents here. Only

7 one of them is relevant. In the English, it's the second -- although, in

8 fact, it's page 4 of 6, where it begins "On the territory of the city of

9 Sarajevo," and in the B/C/S I think it's on the last page, Mr. Krsman,

10 and -- it's on the last page, the middle paragraph.

11 And we see this is a report dated the 9th of May, 1992, signed in

12 place of the minister of the interior, Mico Stanisic, from the Serb

13 republic, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it says "On the territory of the city of

14 Sarajevo, ferocious fighting has been repeated precisely in the region of

15 the vicinity of Brijesce and the barracks in Rajlovac. Muslim

16 paramilitary formations opened fire on the Serb forces and the innocent

17 civilians. At the moment the fighting is ongoing but regarding the

18 positions of the Serb forces and their maximum effort there is one

19 military defeat of the Muslim extremists on the way."

20 As a description of how the war started in Rajlovac, how accurate

21 would you assess that to be?

22 THE WITNESS: The description is completely accurate, and they

23 probably got this information from us, the report. So it's just as I had

24 recounted it, that they attacked the whole of the Serb area, not only

25 Rajlovac municipality but that it was a synchronised attack on all the

Page 21943

1 areas around Sarajevo inhabited by Serbs.

2 MR. JOSSE: Could that have a number, please, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D156, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which consists of two documents.

6 Mr. Josse, are we going to deal with the first one or not?

7 MR. JOSSE: It doesn't appear to me to have any relevance to this

8 witness's evidence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we then consider to only take the

10 document that is the second one? From what I understand we would then

11 have in English --

12 THE REGISTRAR: The ERN number is ET02089406 to 02089409.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. That would not be a good

14 idea, Mr. Registrar, because that's the whole of the two documents. It

15 would have those numbers, but it's only the last two pages of these

16 numbers. That's 4 of 6 and 5 of 6, which covers the only of the --

17 MR. JOSSE: It's an academic point, but its not clear to me

18 whether in fact this is one document. That is what the translator clearly

19 assumed. That's why he or she has numbered the English 1 to 6.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's keep it simple. It consists of two

21 documents, the first one irrelevant for the testimony of this witness. We

22 keep it at D156.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. JOSSE: This would be a convenient moment.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It is, Mr. Josse.

Page 21944

1 Mr. Krsman, we'll have break until five minutes to eleven.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.29 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I do understand that you'd like to raise

5 a procedural issue. Is the presence of the witness any problem in that

6 respect.

7 MR. TIEGER: I don't think so, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.

9 MR. TIEGER: With respect to P1130, a document that came up during

10 the course of the previous witness's testimony, there were four, I think,

11 small translation errors noted. The Court asked for corrections to be

12 provided. They --


14 MR. TIEGER: -- have been -- have been corrected and the correct

15 copies have been provided now.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Then, Mr. Stewart --

17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- I promised I would give you an answer after the

19 break that also caused us to have the break a little bit longer. We will

20 not sit on the 29th. That means that it's fair to give compensation to

21 the Defence for that missed day. You're supposed to finish by the 4th of

22 April, so that the 5th of April will then compensate for the loss of the

23 29th of March.

24 For reasons related to relative much time taken by the Bench for

25 questioning -- or putting questions to witness, the Chamber finds it fair,

Page 21945

1 perhaps I'll elaborate on that a bit more later, but finds it fair that a

2 couple of days, we have calculated approximately how much time it took,

3 that you give another few days. So that would mean that the 6th, the 7th,

4 and the 10th of April, 10th of April is a Monday --


6 JUDGE ORIE: -- would then be available. And the Chamber then

7 understood that since you are wanting to have Mr. Bjelica here to testify,

8 that you would use those days. The Chamber would then assist to the best

9 of its abilities to get Mr. Bjelica here on the 3rd of April, and then you

10 having an opportunity to start, well, let's say the 6th or late bit 5th.

11 It's also a matter of you using your time as efficiently as possible.

12 Then the 11th of April we will reserve for miscellaneous matters,

13 so if Bjelica would still need one more hour we might use the 11th, but

14 there may be procedural issues.

15 You would then have the 12th and the 13th as well as the 18th and

16 the 19th of April available, four days' preparation for Mr. Krajisnik's

17 testimony. You would have four consecutive days; that would, therefore,

18 in the week before Easter and the Tuesday and the Wednesday after Easter.

19 Then the testimony of Mr. Krajisnik would start on the 20th of April. And

20 since you would have 20 days, from what I remember, that means that the

21 examination-in-chief should be finished by the 17th [Realtime transcript

22 read in error "27th"] of May, and then we'll continue. Of course,

23 everything will be -- will move forward a tiny little bit.

24 The thing I'd like to know -- yes. The transcript reads 20 --

25 yes, it's 17th of May that the -- yes. You would have to finish by the

Page 21946

1 16th as a matter of fact. If you start on a -- no. You start on Thursday

2 the 20th of April. Twenty days would mean you have to finish your

3 examination if chief by Wednesday the 17th of May.

4 MR. STEWART: I take it, in effect, everything is -- is moving on

5 in correspondingly to --


7 MR. STEWART: -- to that change.



10 JUDGE ORIE: This is what the Chamber suggests at this moment, and

11 we're willing to give within the next five minutes -- we'd send a request

12 to the Victims and Witnesses Section if you would agree to have

13 Mr. Bjelica here if possible by the 3rd of April.

14 MR. STEWART: Yes. Well, Your Honour, that would be extremely

15 helpful that -- yes, thank you for that.

16 Your Honour, may I just inquire because it's something that got

17 crossed -- I'm sure the Trial Chamber doesn't want to spend time on it.

18 But if I could just inquire, the -- all dates moving forward in accordance

19 a these adjustments, that includes everything right to the very end, the

20 Trial Chamber's judgement, does it?

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'll come back to that next week, but we're

22 considering the matter, and most likely we have to consider a few matters

23 still, but most likely then a judgement would not be delivered before the

24 summer recess because that becomes almost impossible on the basis already

25 of the tight schedule. Then to what extent final briefs would have to be

Page 21947

1 submitted before the summer recess. We still take it that it's before the

2 summer recess. Whether the final -- whether we'll hear the final

3 submissions by the parties still before the recess is uncertain, that we

4 still have to work that out in more detail. We'll do that and we'll

5 inform you by the beginning of next week.

6 MR. STEWART: Yes, it may be obviously I don't want to take time

7 this morning but is -- are both those elements, Your Honour, something on

8 which there may be some submission and discussion about it in court? I'm

9 talking about the lodging of final briefs. Is that a matter that could be

10 revisited in court?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We're not going to spend days on it, but of

12 course we'll listen to you before making final determinations in that

13 respect.

14 MR. STEWART: Yes. Well, thank you for that, Your Honour. Thank

15 you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The VWS is aware of what we're discussing at the

17 moment, is following at this moment this hearing, and the VWS is requested

18 to put every effort in getting Mr. Bjelica here by the 3rd of April.

19 MR. STEWART: Thank you so much, Your Honour.


21 Mr. Josse.


23 Q. I want to go back a little bit in your evidence, Mr. Krsman,

24 because there's something I forgot to ask you about, and it relates to the

25 period after the laying of the minefield but before the outbreak of

Page 21948

1 hostilities, and I want to ask you whether the certification of Zabrdje

2 received any communication in that period from the Sokolje Crisis Staff.

3 A. We didn't receive any letters or mail. We had a direct telephone

4 line that we used to communicate to each other about the activities that

5 we were about to undertake.

6 Q. Well, firstly perhaps you would tell the Chamber about this

7 telephone line. Was it one that was specially commissioned?

8 A. Yes. The central post office was in Sarajevo. They switched off

9 all the telephone lines save for this telephone line that connected our

10 Crisis Staff and the Crisis Staff in Sokolje in question in which a person

11 called Semso whose family name I don't know worked and we communicated

12 with him. We negotiated with him, and everything was correct and up until

13 the 7th of May when Semso called us and said, "People, I can no longer

14 control the extremists here and I cannot guarantee you peace from this day

15 on." And he said things would happen as they would happen. And he also

16 informed us that the telephone line would be discontinued and that the

17 previous agreements were no longer in place.

18 Q. Do you know what position Semso held in -- if any, in the Crisis

19 Staff at Sokolje?

20 A. Semso was the head of a family in Sokolje who cooperated with us

21 very well, and when he couldn't control these people he no longer had a

22 position. There were other people? Positions, and they were in control,

23 and what then meant was that they attacked us on the following day, on the

24 8th of May.

25 Q. Before the break, I asked you something about the Serb formations

Page 21949

1 at the outbreak of the war. What did you perceive of the Muslim

2 formations in the first month of the war?

3 A. As we were observing the separation line, we noticed with our

4 naked eye that they were digging their trenches and communicating trenches

5 very fast. We called them by phone asking them why they were doing that,

6 and they said for no reason, or they couldn't provide us with an adequate

7 answer as to why they were doing that when we didn't do anything of the

8 sort.

9 In our village it was a very big problem when we had to tell

10 people that we had to dig trenches on their property. At first they were

11 not willing to do that, but later on as the war continued, we -- everybody

12 realised that we had to reinforce our positions. They, on their part,

13 started digging trenches as early as April. Their slogan was, "We will

14 dig our way to freedom." It was a notorious fact. Everybody knew that.

15 Q. I'm going to go into this -- invite you to go into this in a

16 little more detail in a moment's time, but it's right, at the outbreak of

17 hostilities you took up arms and fought for your side?

18 A. After the first attack, we established our defence line as best as

19 we could. One has to be fair and say that at first we didn't see anybody

20 during the first ten days. They were shooting at us from a distance.

21 However, the shells were falling. We had to be very cautious. It was the

22 very beginning of the war, and you have to know that before that none of

23 us had heard a bullet being fired, and all of a sudden such a change

24 without any training with elderly, with sick, with the children. We had

25 had to try and survive. During the first six months we had the biggest

Page 21950

1 number of casualties because we didn't know how to behave, how to defend

2 ourselves from the enemy fire from -- from their bullets.

3 Q. It's the enemy fire in the first month or so that I want to ask

4 you about. Were you able to make an assessment of the type of weaponry

5 that your enemy had in the first one to two months of the war?

6 A. In the first month or so, save for the first day when we were

7 being shelled by mortar, for the rest of the time they used only light

8 weapons with an odd mortar shell here or there.

9 Q. Any sort of cannons, artillery, that type of thing?

10 A. As the conflict escalated, they started using all sorts of

11 equipment and weaponry, and I don't think that there is a piece of

12 armament that they didn't use to shoot at us during the war. Cannons,

13 tanks, howitzer, mortar. And also, you ever to bear in mind that there

14 were those forces on Mount Igman that also fired on us.

15 Q. I want to ask you about a few discrete areas in relation to

16 military activities in 1992. Firstly, you have described the nature of

17 the formation of the Rajlovac defence forces in the first month or so of

18 the war. After a month or two had passed, how did you organise yourself

19 militarily? Briefly will suffice as far as I'm concerned in relation to

20 this question.

21 A. In a nutshell, when the army of Republika Srpska was established,

22 our companies joined up into a battalion. The Rajlovac battalion joined

23 up another battalion and formed a brigade, the 2nd Battalion. And from

24 then, that moment on, my duties were in my company. The battalion did its

25 work. The brigade, it did its work. We behaved as any other classical

Page 21951

1 military formation.

2 Q. You became a company commander; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. What was your company known as?

5 A. The name of my company was the 3rd Company of Zabrdje.

6 Q. And you were part of the Rajlovac Brigade; correct?

7 A. Yes. We were on the strength of the Rajlovac Brigade. There was

8 another company composed of men from Brijesce, and there was another

9 company composed of men from Reljevo, Cuca, Perivoj, which all belonged to

10 the municipality of Rajlovac. The three companies that I've just

11 mentioned made up this battalion.

12 Q. How many men were in your company?

13 A. At the very outset there were 202 of us. Some died, some left.

14 Some people who resided in town and had houses in Zabrdje joined us

15 subsequently. Some men who married girls from Zabrdje were also

16 ill-treated, so they joined us. When the war ended, I had 176 men on my

17 strength, and that was more or less what our strength was in my company

18 throughout the war.

19 Q. How were you selected as a -- or as the company commander?

20 A. I was primarily chosen because I was relatively young. Everybody

21 liked me and respected me as an honest and courageous lad. I was the

22 president of the youth organisation. At that time it was very important

23 to keep the danger at bay from young people. There was a meeting, and I

24 was appointed the company commander.

25 Q. Taking the second black and white map, could you indicate, please,

Page 21952

1 where the front line was when the war commenced?

2 A. Shall I show you the line that my company manned or the entire

3 line of the Rajlovac Brigade?

4 Q. The entire line would, I think, be more useful. Yes. Why don't

5 you mark it on the map with a line.

6 A. This was the line, and below the minefield we -- on the previous

7 map I indicated the minefields, and in my zone of responsibility we set up

8 the line some 500 metres to a kilometre further, which largely depended on

9 where we could defend ourselves better.

10 Q. And I take it that your line, your company's line, was around the

11 minefield?

12 A. Yes. Below the minefield. At some places 50 metres below it. At

13 some, others up to a kilometre below the minefield.

14 Q. Was the minefield effective as a -- protection?

15 A. The minefield played its role primarily before the conflict broke

16 out. The minefield was a psychological deterrent, so to speak. It is a

17 well-known fact that a minefield works only if it is supervised. When we

18 moved our line, the minefield was destroyed by game, by stray dogs - I'm

19 talking about tripwire - and partly experts from the Muslim side came,

20 cleared the minefield, took the mines away, used them for other things.

21 This is what I subsequently heard.

22 The minefield in question lost its function, and as the war

23 progressed we set up new minefields.

24 Q. Very briefly. It's right that the line moved in a significant way

25 in June of 1993?

Page 21953

1 A. Up to June 1993, in my village 37 people were killed. On the 12th

2 of June, 1993, the Muslim formations launched a large-scale attack on

3 Zabrdje in order to cut us off and join up with their unit in Visoko. The

4 line was broken in depth of the territory in places up to three or four

5 kilometres, and in other places it remained intact. And if you want me

6 to, I can indicate what the new line looked like.

7 Q. For my purposes I don't need to ask you that question.

8 Going back to 1992, I would like to ask you about whether there

9 were any attacks on civilian targets in territory held by Serb forces.

10 A. In my village, Zabrdje, in the zone of my responsibility, ten

11 civilians were killed of whom seven women. Nine of them were killed by

12 sniper fire, and one woman died in shelling.

13 Q. Give the Chamber some idea how far the snipers were shooting from.

14 A. You can't see it on this map. However, we were on elevation 484,

15 which means that my village was in the valley. The enemy positions were

16 on elevation 585 to 599 and even higher up. The height difference was

17 between 80 and a hundred metres. The complete line that I indicated on

18 the map was below them. All the time there have been stories that we were

19 shooting from a hill. However, there are witnesses and the map shows it

20 that this was not the case. Our line was between 50 and 200 metres, and

21 you could see with the naked eye who is a civilian and who is a fighter.

22 Out of the ten deaths of civilians in my village, I found myself in eight

23 of these cases, and I assisted in their transportation.

24 On the 12th of June, a grandmother called Mirka Mijatovic died

25 during an attack. The other nine cases were people who were killed by

Page 21954

1 sniper fire during a cease-fire. They were killed by a single bullet. No

2 other bullets were fired. If you want me to, I can even give you the

3 exact dates when those deaths happened.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, the question simply was from what

5 distance were snipers shooting.

6 Mr. Josse, of course if you want to take your time and let the

7 witness tell us two minutes whether it was one bullet and other things

8 instead of insisting on getting an answer to your question, it's your

9 time. Please proceed.

10 So could you please tell us from what distance snipers were

11 shooting?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The snipers were shooting from a

13 distance of between 50 to 200 metres depending on the location they were

14 shooting from.


16 Q. You made reference to a lady, Ms. Mijatovic, being killed on the

17 12th of June. 12th of June of what year, please?

18 A. 12th of June, 1993, when that attack was launched on Zabrdje and

19 when half the village fell.

20 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I would like to lead the witness on those

21 matters contained in the bottom of the penultimate page of the 65 ter

22 going to the top of the following page. If the Chamber and my learned

23 friend won't permit me to lead, I'll ask the witness to deal with it by

24 way of recollection.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see whether or not Mr. Tieger opposes, but

Page 21955

1 please go ahead.

2 MR. JOSSE: Well, that -- right.

3 Q. It is right that you recall a lady called Jovanka Krsman being

4 killed by a bullet on the 8th of March, 1993?

5 A. It's my aunt, and on Women's Day, the 8th of March, she made us a

6 cup of coffee to celebrate the day. She went outside to bring us the

7 coffee, and she was hit by a direct sniper hit in the middle of her

8 forehead. And otherwise there wasn't a single bullet being shot. It

9 was -- there was a truce, a cease-fire. The sniper had to know that this

10 was a woman civilian. She was tall. She was wearing a skirt. And that

11 is a classical example of a crime having been committed, or how else shall

12 I call it? We managed to pull her out but it was too late.

13 Q. May of 1993, Darinka Micukic who was shot by a bullet to the

14 heart. I don't think we need the details, Mr. Krsman. Just "yes" if you

15 agree with what I'm putting to you.

16 A. Yes. On that day it was a truce again. Just one bullet was

17 fired, Darinka Micukic, a woman, got hit in the middle of her heart.

18 Q. Ms. Mijatovic, who you've mentioned, was struck by a mortar on the

19 12th of June, 1993?

20 A. Her fate was somewhat different. She just happened to be there

21 when a shell fell, which means that they shot intentionally, but she just

22 happened to be along that way and the shell hit her and killed her.

23 Q. A lady called Ms. Lemez was killed by a cannon round in May 1993?

24 A. Her house was near the front line, about a hundred metres from the

25 front line. And once again, a shell hit her and her body was dispersed.

Page 21956

1 We couldn't even recognise her when we saw her. She went out to tend to

2 her cow. There was a truce in force, a sort of truce at the time. Her

3 son was president of the SDS later on after the late Bora Bjeljac.

4 Q. And finally, in mid-1994 a woman called Koviljka Krajisnik was

5 killed by a sniper?

6 A. Five days before her, Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik's father was wounded.

7 We never mentioned that. It was a light wound, but it was the same sniper

8 who five days later -- well, Koviljka Krajisnik lived at Pale. She'd come

9 down to fetch some documents from the house. She'd left because the front

10 line was there after the fall of Zabrdje, and the sniper shot just one

11 bullet which hit her in the heart.

12 Q. And she is as far as you are aware is the wife of Mr. Krajisnik's,

13 the accused's, first cousin?

14 A. Yes, and their houses were next to each other.

15 Q. I want to turn to a different subject, please, and that is the

16 barracks. What happened to the barracks in 1992? What use was made of

17 them?

18 A. As I've already said, when the Yugoslav People's Army left, the

19 barracks were taken over, first of all, by the people who lived across the

20 road in Brijesce, that is to say Serbs who had left their homes in fear of

21 an attack by the Muslim extremists. But as time went by, it began to fill

22 up with people who were fleeing Sarajevo. And you can see there's a large

23 meadow and most of them came in across that meadow. And the greatest

24 exodus took place on the 17th of May from the Pofalici settlement, which

25 is a Serb settlement in the town which was attacked by Muslim units. And

Page 21957

1 so they went across Zuci, Perivoj, and Dvor, and arrived at the barracks,

2 and there were about 3.000 of them, women, children, elderly people. The

3 entire settlement had escaped. Part of them stayed on in the barracks.

4 The women and children fled in different directions, so the barracks quite

5 literally served as a collective centre because it was a very large

6 barracks with a lot of facilities, a large kitchen, everything else that a

7 barracks would have. So we used it for defence answer as a collective --

8 collection centre for people who didn't have anywhere else to go.

9 Q. What sort of numbers of people are we talking about in terms of

10 those who didn't have anywhere else to go?

11 A. Well, a realistic figure would be about 4 to 500 people.

12 Sometimes there were more, sometimes less. It varied. There were other

13 units as the army began to be established, so others went off to other

14 units, but mostly -- well, there were two companies there, 200 men, and

15 add another 200 to that, people working in the kitchen, civilians who

16 worked in the washing area and so on. So about 500 people when the

17 battlefield stabilised.

18 Q. And other than these military personnel and those who were

19 assisting them, support staff, cooks, for example, were there any other

20 occupants of the barracks or the outbuildings connected with the barracks?

21 A. No, there weren't any other people, just the ones I mentioned.

22 Q. At any point were there civilians there?

23 A. There were civilians, but we never referred to them it as

24 civilians because it was the front line. So the women who worked in the

25 kitchen and those working in the laundry, they had their wartime

Page 21958

1 assignments. So there weren't any civilians in actual fact.

2 Q. And in terms of attacks on the barracks, did that occur and, if

3 so, how were you able to defend the barracks?

4 A. The barracks, well, it was a targeting area because it was under

5 Sokolje. And for the first year of the war, 200 people were killed, about

6 200 people killed in the barracks, and a far larger number were wounded.

7 And they never attack the barracks as an infantry because they thought it

8 was well mined and well fortified. They always tried to do it in a

9 different way. And you can see our last defence line, they tried to

10 attack that through Zabrdje on three occasions but they never succeeded,

11 if you look at the map.

12 Q. Are you aware of any member of the Rajlovac brigade stopping a

13 humanitarian convoy?

14 A. We had a checkpoint where my company met the other company. It

15 was along the main road Visoko running to Sarajevo. That was the

16 checkpoint. And the central humanitarian aid depot of the UNHCR was in

17 Rajlovac, and all the convoys passed by that point. You never had any

18 convoy stopped, and the observers noted all this. There was never any

19 problem, not at any point, never.

20 Q. What about electricity supply? Any attempt to interfere with

21 that?

22 A. Through force of circumstance, the large transformer station was

23 in Reljevo, and they went across my area of responsibility towards town.

24 We never, ever cut off the long distance transmission lines or cut off the

25 electricity or tried to do so. You could cut off the electricity by

Page 21959

1 cutting off the transformer station in agreement with people in charge of

2 this. Although we didn't like the situation, we knew why they used the

3 electricity and we never cut off the electricity supply or cut off the

4 electricity supply going into town.

5 Q. The town being Sarajevo, presumably.

6 A. Yes, I meant Sarajevo. However, it was used for quite different

7 purposes.

8 Q. Was --

9 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't understand the last question. You

10 said, "However, it was used for quite different purposes." What was used

11 for purposes different from what?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, electricity should be used by

13 people needing electricity, families and so on, but the electricity went

14 to the weapons factory in Vasomiskin and where they used to make

15 ammunition, guns, cannons and other things to be able to use the machinery

16 that was there. That's what the people told us who left town and worked

17 there.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.


20 Q. Did you have any difficulties in 1992, specifically, please, once

21 the war had started with an influx of Serb refugees?

22 A. Of course we had difficulties. However, as luck would have it, we

23 had enough food supplies and medicines and everything else. So during

24 that first year of the war, we were able to take in all that. However, as

25 time went by, the situation became worse. There was less humanitarian aid

Page 21960

1 coming in, so the situation was very difficult afterwards.

2 Q. Where did you house the refugees who arrived?

3 A. In that first moment they were all in the barracks, but later on

4 they were taken in by various families in the different houses that were

5 in depth of our territory, and part of them left for Serbia or went to

6 third countries and elsewhere.

7 Q. I want to move on to a different topic. Do you recall when you

8 last saw Mr. Krajisnik in Rajlovac prior to the outbreak of the war?

9 A. Prior to the outbreak of the war, I saw him when he went home, and

10 that was at the beginning of the year 2000 when he left Zabrdje in a

11 helicopter, and I didn't see him again in the Dayton agreement was signed.

12 Q. You just -- the answer was translated as "at the beginning of the

13 year 2000." Is that what you just said, Mr. Krsman? Did you mean 2000 or

14 some other year? You did just say that. It's been confirmed to me. What

15 did you mean?

16 A. Well, you said at the beginning of the war. That mean 1992.

17 1992.

18 Q. You saw Mr. Krajisnik leaving by helicopter, and as far as you

19 know, he didn't return till sometime after the war; correct?

20 A. I have to put something right. I saw him one month later when his

21 kum or best man, Momcilo, was kill. He attended the funeral, and I saw

22 him by our local church in Reljevo. So that would make it June 1992.

23 That would be the last time I saw him.

24 Q. In the months leading up to the war, did you have any

25 conversations with him of any significance about politics, events of

Page 21961

1 state, that type of thing? So in the early part of 1992, I'm asking you

2 about.

3 A. No. Quite literally we worked on the last day or to the last day,

4 and the president himself worked almost to the very last day. So during

5 those days our relations with our neighbours were very proper. We would

6 sit in cafes together, and that's the truth of it. Everything that

7 happened afterwards took quite a different course.

8 Q. Well, now I want to ask you about the end of the war and the

9 Dayton Accords. Why did you not return to your home in Rajlovac when

10 hostilities had ceased?

11 A. Well, neither I nor any of my relatives or local inhabitants, we

12 did not return for many reasons, the most important being that we had

13 absolutely no conditions to return to.

14 Q. What about living in new accommodation nearby?

15 A. Well, quite literally we went out onto a meadow, onto an open

16 space. We had everything down there, but we went out into this open space

17 and first of all it was from collective centres to try and make the best

18 of life, live and work in the collection centres, and little by little

19 life is getting back to normal but not nearly as good as it was before or

20 what you would need for a normal way of life.

21 Q. Let me put this another way. Why did you go and live in Lukavica

22 rather than in Rajlovac?

23 A. Well, there are at least ten reasons, and I'll give you the main

24 ones. The first reason is this: We did not have our own power and

25 authority over the territory we lived in, so that would be a normal,

Page 21962

1 legitimate request. The second reason was that we would have to live next

2 to the people that we fought against until a little while ago. The third

3 reason is that everything was destroyed quite literally. There was no

4 infrastructure and not the proper conditions for living.

5 But all those reasons come afterwards. The main reasons were that

6 we did not wish to live somewhere where we would not be able to exercise

7 any of our rights through the system of power and authority, have our own

8 police force, our own municipality, and a peaceful life in dignity.

9 Q. Are you able to give any evidence as to what role, if any,

10 Mr. Krajisnik played in the departure of the Serbs from Rajlovac after the

11 war?

12 A. Well, the last time I saw him was just before we moved out of

13 Rajlovac. He came to Rajlovac, and then we had a blaring argument. There

14 were about 3 or 400 of us there, and he said, "People, you should stay.

15 Try and stay on. It will be better. We'll try and put the situation

16 right." But we asked him why. Myself asked him in front of these 300

17 people, "Are we going to have a police force of our own, and are we going

18 to have our own local authorities?" And he said, "Well, not yet. We

19 haven't decided that yet." And I said, "Well, Mr. President, I have

20 nothing to discuss then."

21 So he insisted upon this again, and then two hours later after we

22 had this argument, he left and he said he would come by again. However,

23 after great pressure from television, radio, the media, the daily papers

24 from the Muslim side, we made a definite decision to leave and leave all

25 that enormous wealth behind.

Page 21963

1 Q. Can you help as to where and when this meeting took place?

2 A. The meeting took place just before we left our -- left, in the

3 municipality building, in the Assembly building of Rajlovac, and the

4 Dayton Accords had already been signed at that time. There was no war

5 going on. We didn't go up to the front line. We were just waiting to

6 reach an agreement as to what we should do next. We were in favour of

7 staying on if we had our own authorities. If we didn't have our own

8 authorities, we didn't wish to stay on. And that was fully respected and

9 spoiled with. There were a lot of us in the 11 villages, 8.600

10 inhabitants in fact. Now you have just 82 men left down there, and the

11 youngest person is 65 years of age.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, may I ask a few clarifying questions?

13 MR. JOSSE: Of course.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You said several times, "Our own police, our own

15 authorities." Do I understand that you wanted a Serb police force in

16 place for you to remain living there?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that the police be made up

18 of men from the local inhabitants. We lived there. Then it would be

19 quite normal for it to have a Serb police force. You don't expect us to

20 have a police force come in from Banja Luka, for example.

21 JUDGE ORIE: But what then did you have in mind as far as

22 municipality that would -- I mean, what would be the scale? Would it be

23 Rajlovac? Would that include majority Muslim populated areas nearby?

24 What -- how do I have to understand this?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Look here, Mr. President, when the

Page 21964

1 delegation left to sign the Dayton Accords, we all thought that the

2 Serbian territories would be joined up. However, the Dayton Accords did

3 something absolutely different. Our territory would not have been joined

4 up. We have would have remained in a ghetto. We would have -- no one had

5 any communication with other parts of Republika Srpska. And again we

6 would have the same situation as we had before the war. They were a

7 majority and they would have wanted things to be the same as they were,

8 and this is precisely why the war started in the first place.

9 As I look back, there is freedom there. The property has been

10 restored. Anybody can go back, but nobody went back. Not a single Serb

11 child has been born in 12 years. There is no Mr. Krajisnik there, nobody

12 to tell us, "Go there." People just don't want to go there. People want

13 to be joined with the rest of the Serbian territory. That's why we wanted

14 our Serbian police. We did not trust the Serbian police [as interpreted].

15 We didn't trust their politicians. They threatened that they would arrest

16 us all.

17 Fortunately enough, people are being taken to task and normal

18 people, everyday people, have to live in the fashion that fits honest

19 Serbian people.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


22 Q. What about the Serbian dead who were buried in Rajlovac? Did

23 anything happen in relation to their plots?

24 A. This was one of the most difficult moments in my life, although I

25 am not a coward and I was awarded a bravery medal during the war. The

Page 21965

1 father of one of our lads that got killed asked me to dig up his grave so

2 that he could be buried in the Serbian territory. That tells you enough

3 how afraid people were that there would be revenge as soon as they entered

4 our territory, and this soon proved to be true. And the worst thing of

5 all is that in our cemetery, in the cemetery where my family was buried

6 and the cemetery where Krajisnik's family were buried, they destroyed the

7 tombstone of his late wife who was our teacher. And this is another proof

8 of the immense hatred that they feel towards us. Not all of them, but the

9 most extremist ones among them. And this is another proof that we were

10 right to leave that territory.

11 Q. Do you assess Mr. Krajisnik's role in the events of your

12 municipality and area before the war as being one of a maligning

13 influence?

14 A. All those who know Mr. Krajisnik know that he was a respectable

15 head of a household, an expert in his job. I personally witnessed that he

16 was forced to go into politics. He was not interested in politics. But

17 like every Serb, when we took to a task we want to see it through

18 properly. I didn't want to go into the war, but since I started fighting,

19 I wanted to win eventually.

20 Mr. Krajisnik was correct in doing what he did. He tried to

21 restore peace. He did not want the war to start in the first place. But

22 this is life. This is destiny. History will show who was right and who

23 was wrong. I personally don't think he -- that he was wrong, not at all.

24 MR. JOSSE: That concludes my examination, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse.

Page 21966

1 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to start the cross-examination of

2 Mr. Krsman, or would you rather have the break now so that we would have a

3 little bit over one hour left after the break?

4 MR. TIEGER: Well, I certainly don't want to do anything that

5 would reduce the amount of time available, but if it's otherwise the same,

6 then I suppose having an uninterrupted period would probably be

7 preferable.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break until 25 minutes to one.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.41 p.m..

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, you'll now be cross-examined by

12 Mr. Tieger, who is counsel for the Prosecution.

13 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krsman.

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if we could distribute the bundle of

18 materials.

19 Q. Mr. Krsman, in a moment the usher will present you with a

20 tabulated bundle of materials. I will be referring your attention during

21 the course of my questions to particular items in that bundle by the tab

22 number, so you need not worry about any particular ones until it's

23 specifically pointed out.

24 Mr. Krsman, yesterday you referred to the initiative to establish

25 or, as you put it, reinstitute the municipality of Rajlovac and noted in

Page 21967

1 part the opposition to that initiative within the existing municipality of

2 Novi Grad. In that connection, if I could ask you, please, to turn to tab

3 25.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, you could please assist the witness

5 so that he sees that B/C/S is usually at the back of the English. The

6 proper way of saying it is behind the English rather than at the back of

7 the English.


9 Q. Mr. Krsman -- and, Your Honour, these were need individual numbers

10 as identified.

11 Mr. Krsman, tab 25 contains several letters from business

12 enterprises. I'd like to direct your attention to two of them. The first

13 is from Vemex Sarajevo on October 15, 1991.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That would be number.


16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.


18 Q. And that's directed to the attention of the president of the

19 Municipal Assembly of Novi Grad. And, as you can see, Mr. Krsman, the

20 subject is the request, and there's a number and a date regarding the

21 initiative for separation and the establishment of the new local community

22 in Rajlovac, and Vemex's response indicating: "It is our opinion that the

23 initiative for separation and the establishment of the new local community

24 in already existing local community Rajlovac cannot be justified and that

25 the needs for such action do not exist due to both economic and political

Page 21968

1 reasons. Therefore, we are not in favour of any kind of separation or the

2 establishment of any new local community. We are voting for keeping the

3 existing state."

4 And if I could quickly turn your attention, Mr. Krsman, to the

5 third letter from enterprise Sprind --

6 JUDGE ORIE: That would be number.



9 Q. -- dated October 29, 1991 is, again directed to Municipal Assembly

10 of Novi Grad in response to an inquiry requesting their opinion on

11 establishing a new local community by separating one part from the

12 existing local community of Rajlovac. The response continues that they

13 considered the request, that is the managing board did, and their view is

14 that there is no political or economic justification to divide the

15 existing local community into two and then concludes in the final

16 paragraph located on the second page of the English: "We employ 475

17 workers of all ethnicities, and we would like to stress that that

18 enterprise would not want to belong to the local community or any other

19 socio-political community which would be organised according to the

20 criteria of ethnic affiliation."

21 Mr. Krsman, these two letters represent, do they not, part of the

22 opposition and basis for the opposition to the initiative to establish a

23 separate Rajlovac municipality?

24 A. Yes, and I am a good witness to this because I worked in all the

25 three companies in Vemex through to Bitas, and I can tell you something

Page 21969

1 about every of them, I can tell you whatever you would be interested in

2 about any of them.

3 Q. Well, I am grateful to you for noting the opportunity, but for now

4 I was primarily concerned with the issue of the Rajlovac municipality and

5 the reaction to it. And if I understood you correctly, these letters that

6 we've just had a chance to see reflect part of that opposition in this

7 case coming from the business community.

8 A. Yes, but these three companies are so small, so unimportant that

9 they constitute not more than 5 per cent of the companies that existed in

10 our municipality. But let me just note that Vemex was not even in our

11 municipality. Vemex has just one store in our municipality. Bitas is a

12 company that the management board of was in Sarajevo, and the gentleman

13 who is the director was a Muslim. That's why he wrote this. And Upitrans

14 [phoen] is part of Upi [phoen] where over 250 over 300 employees were from

15 Sokol. Their manager wrote this, and those people who worked in Upi wrote

16 this on their own initiative. I don't doubt the accuracy of this

17 information, but these people were not important, and they did not

18 constitute a majority that could have passed any such decision.

19 Q. They didn't purport to be a -- to be casting a vote as part of a

20 majority or a part of an electoral process. In that case, they were

21 noting their response to the basis for the initiative; correct?

22 A. Yes. They provided a response, but the person who was in charge

23 of this one and only store, Vemex store, in our municipality was the

24 president of the local commune of Sokol. In other words, it was through

25 private channels that the request was handed in. Vemex as a company had a

Page 21970

1 single store in Sokol and just one employee, and that was this man, the

2 manager of the store.

3 As for Bitas, I worked in that company as a student part time. 90

4 per cent of the employees were Muslims, unskilled labourers who were not

5 residents of our local commune, and there are no signatures of these

6 people there. Maybe people did not even think straight when they it read

7 this. Maybe they did it because they were persuaded to do that by their

8 management.

9 Q. In any event, Mr. Krsman, the municipality of Rajlovac was created

10 from what had been part of Novi Grad and was established by or formally

11 confirmed by the Serbian Assembly of -- or the Assembly of the Serbian

12 People of Bosnia and Herzegovina; correct?

13 A. Yes, you're right.

14 Q. Now, yesterday you spoke a bit about the demographics --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, before we get confused, you're presenting

16 three letters, you say. Actually, you're preparing four letters, both in

17 English and then in B/C/S, and then one in B/C/S and a totally unrelated

18 translation, it seems. If you'd please look at the third one, which in

19 English comes from enterprise Sprind, Sarajevo food industry, and it is a

20 relatively long letter, whereas the original -- the witness is testifying

21 about Upi. I find Upi in the original; however, not in English.

22 Therefore, the third letter, I don't know if you want to rely on the

23 B/C/S. Then please provide us with an English translation. Or if you'd

24 like to rely upon the Sprind enterprise, then please provide the witness

25 with an original in B/C/S.

Page 21971

1 You see the problem, or do you have a different ...

2 MR. TIEGER: I do, Your Honour. In light of the fact that I

3 recited to the witness motion of the contents, substance of the Sprind 29

4 October letter, I would like to present -- if it is now necessary for the

5 witness --

6 JUDGE ORIE: But the witness has not seen the Sprind letter, did

7 he?

8 MR. TIEGER: No, I agree. And as I say, on the other hand I read

9 it out loud. I'm not suggesting that that obviates the need to present it

10 to him, but I think both in terms --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please arrange for better translations, et cetera,

12 and then come back to that at a later stage once everything has been

13 properly prepared.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 MR. JOSSE: Could Your Honour make sure that Mr. Krsman has just

16 follows what has just happened because this is a problem that I've often

17 referred to of the witness clearly not actually following in the bundle

18 what is being put to him.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, because he also referred to a document

20 which had not even yet a number, which is the Bitas letter.

21 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, you're instructed if your attention is

23 drawn to the first letter, look at the first one, not at the second, not

24 at the third, and in the meantime we found out that the English

25 translation of the third letter is not in any way related to it. So we

Page 21972

1 leave it for the time being. Forget about 25 for the moment and

2 Mr. Tieger will proceed.

3 MR. TIEGER: Well, at this point Your Honour it's probably

4 sensible to give the Bitas letter a number as well, since the witness

5 obviously saw it and referred to it. And then I can perhaps straighten

6 the entire thing out when the translation is here.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Are you going to present three letters finally or

8 four Mr. --

9 MR. TIEGER: Three.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Bitas letter gets P1133, I take it.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll deal with that at a later stage. Please

13 proceed.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Krsman, can we next turn to tab G -- sorry, tab 12. Tab 12 is

16 a decree on the promulgation of the law on the establishment of Rajlovac

17 municipality.

18 And I note for the record, Your Honour, this is P64 A, binder 24,

19 footnote 622. I don't know if that's specific reference obviates a need

20 for a new number or if ...

21 MR. JOSSE: I assume that is going to be renumbered as part of the

22 project that Mr. Haider is presently undertaking.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So we leave it for the time as it is, and then we get

24 a -- how do you call that? -- a table that will compare all the numbers.

25 Please proceed.

Page 21973


2 Q. And it indicates, Mr. Krsman, as you'll see that the law on the

3 establishment of the Rajlovac municipality adopted by the Assembly of the

4 Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina at its session held on 11 May

5 1992 is hereby promulgated. That's signed by Dr. Karadzic in his -- you

6 continue, you see that the law on the establishment of the Rajlovac

7 municipality is provided and signed by Mr. Krajisnik.

8 I want to direct your attention in particular, however, to Article

9 2 of the law on the establishment of Rajlovac municipality.

10 Now, yesterday during the course of your discussion about the

11 initiative to establish Rajlovac and your discussion about the Rajlovac

12 commune or area, you referred to a number of Serb villages including

13 Lemezi, Lontosi, et cetera. Let me ask you about the villages or hamlets

14 or other areas encompassed by the Rajlovac municipality which was actually

15 formed.

16 First of all, I noticed that you mentioned 11. I count closer

17 to -- well, certainly in excess of 11, and I want to look at some of

18 those. Ahatovici, for example, is the third populated area mentioned in

19 Article 2. Was that a primarily Serb-populated area primarily

20 Muslim-populated area or mixed area?

21 A. This was the only village or hamlet with a majority Muslim

22 population.

23 Q. And you say majority Muslim population. Which of the other

24 populated areas were populated with Muslims? What about, for example,

25 Brijesce?

Page 21974

1 A. Of the others, Smiljevici had five Muslim households. Brijesce, I

2 indicated on the map, until '72 it was a Serb village. The slopes were

3 still Serbian, but then with the influx of population, it became Muslim.

4 The same with the 21st of May. The slopes were Serbian, and in the depth

5 were Muslims. The rest were all ethnically pure Serb areas.

6 Q. And you also mentioned yesterday that had it not been for the war,

7 the new Rajlovac municipality would have been one of the wealthiest in the

8 former Yugoslavia. What facilities or other forms of wealth did the

9 Rajlovac municipality encompass that would have produced that consequence?

10 A. Brijesce used to feed the city of Sarajevo. You can see on the

11 map that there were big arable areas with two crops a year. The first

12 lettuce that arrived in the markets of Sarajevo became from Brijesce. All

13 the food came from Rajlovac.

14 Second of all, one of the big companies were in Rajlovac. RO

15 [phoen], which was a technical institution that provided overhaul of

16 aircraft, MiGs, Mirage. Then there was the largest storage of food in

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Upi, with a work-force numbering thousands. Then

18 there was Sprind bakery that also used to feed the city of Sarajevo. The

19 management of Apolje Oprimo [phoen] was there, and Pol Jopromo [phoen] was

20 a Bosnian company and there was another series of companies. For example,

21 there was a transformer plant for the electricity, and if the municipality

22 of Rajlovac had been registered, all the income of those companies had to

23 be channeled to that municipality. And if the situation had remained the

24 way it was, we would only get peanuts from all these other municipalities

25 which would have developed at our expense.

Page 21975

1 Q. And what about the railway and what about any gas production or

2 gas supply facilities? Were they also within the area encompassed by the

3 new Rajlovac municipality?

4 A. As for the railway, in Rajlovac there was a depot where trains

5 were being serviced, but the management was in town. As for gas, there

6 was a gas station in the territory of our municipality, but again the

7 management was in town. And as for Energopetrol, that is gas, petrol

8 station, the management was in Blazer [phoen] and we have a depot of some

9 kind of oil products, and we could not base our development on those

10 capacities because their managements were in other municipalities. The

11 companies that I mention in my previous answer, their management was in

12 our municipality, and we could rely on those companies for our source of

13 income.

14 Q. I'd like to turn next to tab 17. And I'm going to give you an

15 opportunity to take a look at this. This is a draft speech commemorating

16 the establishment of the Rajlovac municipality on February 23, 1992. I

17 think that was the date that you provided in your testimony yesterday.

18 But if you could take just a moment to look at that before I ask you any

19 questions about it. I would be asking you specific questions, but I want

20 to give you the chance to look at the entirety first.

21 MR. JOSSE: That's clearly going to take five minutes,

22 Your Honour, at the very minimum. If the invitation is to the witness to

23 read the document properly, I'd invite the Chamber to so instruct him.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, is there --

25 MR. TIEGER: May I --

Page 21976

1 JUDGE ORIE: Is it split up in several parts or is it one ongoing

2 story so to say.

3 MR. TIEGER: No. It's just one document, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I -- yes.

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, might I --


7 MR. TIEGER: Perhaps if I could do it this way.

8 Q. Maybe to give you some guidance for the nature of the inquiry, if

9 you could look it over initially, sir, to determine whether you were --

10 this is a speech you yourself heard at any time or can identify the author

11 of the speech. So if it's possible to look it over for that purpose

12 initially before I direct your attention to any specific portions, maybe

13 that would shorten the time.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, looking at it, going through the pages,

15 is it something that seems familiar to you, this text? You heard it

16 before? You read it before?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I first have to know whether I'm

18 going to be asked to read it. There's no date. Somebody crossed the

19 date. Maybe the -- it could have been some other day.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, if you could just give a glance to the

21 several pages without reading them in total and tell us whether it's

22 something that you recognise and -- Mr. -- then we'll have the second

23 questions, and then see whether it -- whether you recognise portions of it

24 as having heard or something seen before.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document and this speech was

Page 21977

1 not held on the day when the municipality of Rajlovac was founded. I

2 never heard it. I never heard such a long speech. And if you know that

3 it was during the war, you know that nobody would have had --


5 Q. Perhaps I can assist you on that. If you --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't know whether it was during the war, the

7 23rd of February, 1992, but --


9 Q. There's a reference in the document at the bottom of page 4 of the

10 English, which indicates that -- which refers to three years of existence

11 and work of the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac so -- as I indicated to

12 you before the text of the speech which I've had a look at appears to

13 reflect a commemoration of the founding of the municipality earlier.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger, I think Mr. Josse fairly says that

15 the witness should be able to read --

16 MR. TIEGER: I agree, Your Honour.


18 MR. TIEGER: I just thought as he was doing so it might be helpful

19 if he knew what the next question was so he could --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman --

21 MR. TIEGER: -- level of --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, Mr. Tieger expressed his opinion that

23 this would be a speech that would be delivered at a celebration of --

24 well, a couple of years' existence of or couple of years ago the

25 municipality of Rajlovac having been established. Have you ever attended

Page 21978

1 a meeting where a speech was delivered at the -- well, let's say the

2 anniversary of the establishment of the municipality of Rajlovac?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never. I had -- I had other things

4 to do.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I leave it up to you whether you invite

6 the witness to read now or read -- perhaps give him a copy and see whether

7 during the -- before Monday he could read it. Unless you want to finish

8 today.

9 MR. TIEGER: Let me try it this way, Your Honour. Let me try it

10 by directing the witness to particular passages and --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then see as to how much that related to

12 it and what kind of questions you put to the witness, because it may make

13 a difference as well.

14 MR. TIEGER: Okay.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


17 Q. In the first paragraph, Mr. Krsman, we see that there's a

18 reference to February 23, 1992, and the promulgation of the Serbian

19 municipality of Rajlovac. And we can also see a similar reference on page

20 4 of the English. I apologise that I don't have a cross-reference for

21 your benefit, but it also states that based on the prepared formal

22 activities and election of the Assembly members, the public gathering of

23 the municipality citizens was held and it was decided that the first

24 Assembly session of the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac would be held on

25 23 February 1992.

Page 21979

1 Those references in the letter, I take it, are, as far as you're

2 aware, accurate; is that right?

3 A. Yes, they are accurate.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

5 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my understanding, we're talking about the

7 date, 23rd of February, or -- because you say those references. There are

8 a lot of subjective matters in there as well. You're referring to the

9 first paragraph. I mean I also see a date, but I also see both Serbs the

10 initiated the political fight and --

11 MR. TIEGER: Just the portions I read to the witness, Your Honour.

12 Q. On the first page there is a fact that in the month of October

13 1991 an initiative was taken to establish the municipality of Rajlovac.

14 The preparations were ongoing until February 1992 and all formalities were

15 completed by that time. The activities regarding -- well, first of all,

16 and I -- is that portion that I read also accurate?

17 MR. JOSSE: He clearly hasn't got the place. I'm not blaming

18 Mr. Krsman, let me hastily add, but I didn't rise before because I thought

19 he might have the place. But he clearly doesn't at the moment.

20 JUDGE ORIE: What about the 4th page in B/C/S, third paragraph.

21 Would that be the place, Mr. -- Mr. Usher, could you please assist.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've found it.

23 MR. JOSSE: If there is a spare bundle, then I will hand it to the

24 B/C/S speaker who is sitting next to me, and that may assist, and he will

25 do all he can in that regard.

Page 21980

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, if you have one. Although when it comes

2 to dates, Mr. Josse, it's rather easy to find. If there is a spare

3 bundle, please pass it to Mr. Josse.

4 Were you able to read it, Mr. Krsman, what was just read to you by

5 Mr. Tieger? And the question is whether that is also an accurate --


7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


9 Q. And continuing down, if you know, it states that the activities

10 regarding the establishment of the municipality were coordinated by the

11 Serbian Democratic Party, which appointed the initiative board which held

12 meetings every Sunday on the church premises, reports on results of tasks,

13 and new tasks performed at the meeting of the initiative board. Can you

14 tell us also if that's accurate, sir?

15 A. That is accurate but not in the church -- on the church premises,

16 but there's a place next to the church where we would certainly sit down,

17 have a cup of coffee, have a brandy and discuss problems and everything

18 else.

19 Q. The fourth paragraph beginning with "Everything was planned but

20 they were not able to agree at once --"

21 JUDGE ORIE: Page number in English would be.

22 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Page number 1, ending with

23 the sentence "The slow way was far more dangerous and that was to remain

24 within Yugoslavia as an integral BH where they would continue exerting

25 pressure on the Serbs and bringing the Muslims to inhabit the land which

Page 21981

1 would enable them to gain a Muslim state."

2 Is that a reflection, Mr. Krsman, of the same concerns that

3 you identified during your testimony yesterday about the influx of

4 Muslims?

5 THE WITNESS: I haven't been able to find that, the mention of

6 Yugoslavia.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The first page, Mr. Krsman, fourth paragraph, "sve je

8 bilo."

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Fine. Thank you. And what

10 was the question?


12 Q. The question, sir, is was that -- is that reference also a

13 reflection of the same concerns that you spoke of yesterday concerning the

14 influx of Muslims?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And incidentally, in reference to that concern, were you aware in

17 1991 or in 1992 that Mr. Krajisnik shared the concerns expressed in this

18 document and the concerns you expressed yesterday about the influx of

19 Muslims into Rajlovac?

20 MR. JOSSE: I'm happy with that question so long as it says "in

21 that paragraph" rather than "in that document."

22 JUDGE ORIE: I understood it --

23 MR. TIEGER: That's fine.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- to be in that paragraph. Yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the Serb people had the same

Page 21982

1 opinion, and some other ethnic groups also wished to remain within

2 Yugoslavia. So when a state disintegrates, it causes a great problem to

3 all nations, not only to the Serb nation.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, the question was whether you were aware

5 in 1991 or 1992 whether Mr. Krajisnik shared these concerns expressed as

6 well. So it's specifically on whether you're aware of Mr. Krajisnik

7 having the same -- having the same concerns.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I think he did.


10 Q. Page 5 of the English, and I'll give you a chance to orient

11 yourself, refers to the Crisis Staff. It begins -- let me say it comes

12 after a very short one-sentence paragraph that says, "We should walk over

13 time and not let time walk over us."

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, I think you'll find it at page 5, the

15 last line read by Mr. Tieger being approximately just below the middle of

16 the page.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have found it, yes.


19 Q. And the next paragraph indicates at the second sentence, "Taking

20 that into --" well, let me read the first sentence it would be easier "By

21 establishing power in our municipality we are strengthening the power of

22 our state. Taking that into consideration, apart from the legally elected

23 Assembly and the organs we have also appointed the Crisis Staff which held

24 meetings on a daily basis and resolved current problems."

25 Is that a reference to the Crisis Staff that you referred to a

Page 21983

1 couple of times in your testimony, sir?

2 A. No. We only mentioned the Crisis Staff of my village towards

3 Sokolje. This is the Crisis Staff at municipal level.

4 Q. And the document continues: "The Crisis Staff was involved in

5 recovery of the property, organisation of Territorial Defence, takeover of

6 military facilities, and everything else that the Crisis Staff considered

7 being in the interest of the Serbian people. The conclusions were adopted

8 and implementation was fast and quick as lightning. It was clear to us

9 that each mistake could endanger security and survival of the Serbian

10 people."

11 To the best of your knowledge, Mr. Krsman, is that paragraph

12 accurate?

13 A. Of course it's accurate.

14 Q. Now, it continues consider: "Thanks to politically tactic

15 activities we managed to take over the most important military and

16 civilian facilities in Rajlovac even though some of them had

17 well-organised units of the Territorial Defence at negotiations with

18 Kresevljakovic and Uzelac lasted days and nights and we were winners in

19 the political field."

20 That paragraph accurate?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then the next two short paragraphs state: "The War Presidency was

23 elected as well as the War Commission and then again the War Presidency

24 the tasks were in general the same. The objective of all these bodies was

25 to establish close cooperation with the military command to fortify

Page 21984

1 defence lines and to protect the lives and property from the attacks of

2 Alija's fanatics."

3 Is that paragraph accurate, sir? I said is that paragraph. I

4 should have said those two paragraphs. I should have said more clearly?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but just one more sentence. You should have

6 read that out. "All conclusions have been verified at the Municipal

7 Assembly," which means it was put before the people and the people

8 verified it.

9 Q. Thank you for that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one follow-up question in that respect? If

11 you're talking about "all conclusions have been verified at the Municipal

12 Assembly," what Municipal Assembly did you have in mind? Was that the new

13 Municipal Assembly specifically for Rajlovac, or was that the Municipal

14 Assembly that was in existence before the war? Could you tell us what --

15 what it refers to?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything these services did was

17 put to war -- in front of the deputies of the newly assembled municipality

18 of Rajlovac which verified it on the basis of a vote. Are we going to do

19 this? Is this being done? So everything was being put to the deputies of

20 the municipality of Srpski Rajlovac.

21 JUDGE ORIE: And were there only Serbs that Assembly or was it --

22 were other nationalities or ethnicities also represented?

23 THE WITNESS: In that Municipal Assembly you had both Serbs and

24 perhaps one or two Croats while they lived on our territory. Once they

25 left, they weren't in the Municipal Assembly any more.

Page 21985

1 JUDGE ORIE: No Muslims therefore?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, none.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


5 Q. And if I could turn your attention --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Tieger.

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.

8 Q. If I could turn your attention back to page 2, another short

9 paragraph. I believe it's also on page 2 of your -- of the B/C/S version.

10 In any event, it says: "However, these possibilities are out of the

11 question and they are melting like ice in the spring. Our centuries' long

12 aspiration and wish which is Serbia can be made out in the distance."

13 Is it correct that the centuries' long aspiration and wish was

14 Serbia at -- for -- during -- during the course of the war?

15 A. The people I knew wanted it to be Yugoslavia. Now, as for who

16 wrote this speech, perhaps for him it was Serbia.

17 Q. In any event, is it correct that the aspiration was that all Serbs

18 should be in one state?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In view of the time, let me turn your attention next to tab 19.

21 Mr. Krsman, what you'll see at tab 19 is a portion of the tape recording

22 of a session of the People's Assembly of Republika Srpska held in January

23 of 1993, and in particular I want to bring your attention to remarks by

24 Trifko Radic, who was the president of the Serbian municipalities of

25 Sarajevo. Is that correct?

Page 21986

1 A. Well, I don't know what he was, but I knew he occupied some kind

2 of post.

3 Q. And in particular, if I could direct your attention to the second

4 paragraph in your materials, and it would be about the ninth line down.

5 The sentence begins in the middle of that ninth line that says: "Believe

6 me when I say that we cannot live together any more. I don't know under

7 what conditions we could live together now. I have to be honest and say

8 that they cause so much evil to us, and this time we did not cause less

9 evil for them either."

10 JUDGE ORIE: Have you found it, Mr. Krsman?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't found it, but there's no

12 problem there. I can answer the question.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, first page, second large paragraph

14 starts -- the ninth line is ...

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have found it now.


17 Q. Now, in that comment, Mr. Krsman, is it clear to you that

18 Mr. Radic is referring, in talking about evil, to that which was done to

19 Muslims and in particular that which was done in Sarajevo where Mr. Radic

20 was an official?

21 A. Mr. Radic is thinking here first and foremost about the evil done

22 to us during World War II by the enemy when it was the Serbs that fell

23 casualty. Now, the evil that we did them you'll have to ask Mr. Radic

24 about that. I know that we didn't do any evil, especially not the evil

25 that is being ascribed to us.

Page 21987

1 Q. Well, isn't part of the evil that Mr. Radic is referring to or

2 part of the evil that was done, isn't that a reference in part to the

3 massive shelling of Muslim areas in Sarajevo at various times during the

4 war, and in particular during 1992?

5 A. No. I don't consider that to be the case. I'm here to testify

6 about those things that relate to myself and my line, front line, but I

7 know that we never shot or shelled without reason.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's try to get matters clear. Mr. Krsman,

9 you said, "We have not done any evil." To that extent, you seem to

10 disagree with Mr. Radic, who refers to, "And this time we did not cause

11 less evil for them either." So he thinks that evil was done. You

12 disagree. Have you any idea what kind of evil he had in mind when he

13 expressed these words?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, this was held only the 8th

15 of January, 1993, which means that the war was only on in 1992. In 1992,

16 there was no Srebrenica or any of those places where evil really did take

17 place. So Mr. Radic was afraid for the Serb people at the time. We had

18 just managed to organise ourselves, and I think that Mr. Radic is talking

19 about bygone days more. And when he mentions evil, he could have said by

20 the same token that there was no less good or evil on both sides, which

21 means that the people had been -- the lives of people had been saved. Not

22 so many people had been killed up to that date. So I think that's what he

23 was referring to.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you're talking about what Mr. Radic could

25 have said. Of course, we are asking at this moment how you understood

Page 21988

1 this.

2 You say that he could have said. May I take it that you then

3 express your opinion that there was no less good or evil on both sides,

4 which would mean that if evil was done by the other side, it would be in

5 balance with the evil done by your side. Is that a correct understanding

6 of your opinion?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, your opinion is correct in the

8 context that we don't know what Mr. Radic thought, what he had in mine. I

9 know what I think, and I don't think that we did evil. Now, history will

10 prove who did what. And so will your Trial Chamber, of course, in its

11 judgement.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I -- well, it's not an answer to -- well,

13 you repeat that there was no evil on your side. So therefore, the whole

14 line of "There was no less good or evil on both sides" is actually, as far

15 as the evil is concerned, is not relevant because there was no evil on

16 your side.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said that in my village 37

18 people were killed. I don't know how many people were killed at Sokol.

19 How can I know? I know that their evil resulted in our 37 dead. Now,

20 how far there is evil on our part I don't know. Of course, there's always

21 evil during a war because there's killing, but -- so killing in war is not

22 evil if it is in combat. It is evil to kill, to slaughter in other ways,

23 not in honest warfare and the casualties in war due to fighting and

24 battle. That's what I meant.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So if I understand you well, you're saying, "I

Page 21989

1 personally experienced the evil done not in combat context," which is evil

2 to you, "and whether similar evil happened elsewhere, I'm not sufficiently

3 informed about that to give a judgement on the balance." Is that

4 approximately how I should understand your testimony?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you've understood that very

6 correctly.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


10 Q. Mr. Krsman, in responding to a question by His Honour, you

11 referred to events in your village, and I do appreciate the limitations of

12 your knowledge about other areas. However, I do want to be clear on one

13 thing. Are you saying that you are unaware of any instances of massive

14 shelling of areas that were heavily populated by civilians, that is

15 massive shelling by Serb forces of areas heavily populated by civilians

16 during the course of 1992?

17 A. All I know is that only in fighting, during battle, did we use

18 weapons depending on the weapons used by the enemy. If they used tanks

19 and howitzers and cannons to shoot at us then we responded in similar

20 kind. Never except in exceptional cases did we use greater calibres than

21 the calibres that were being used to target us.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And if they would in this way attack areas which were

23 populated by civilians, would that justify or did you respond in a similar

24 way using the same weapons to civilians of the other party as well?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, I'm fully aware

Page 21990

1 of the provisions of the Geneva Conventions, and I can guarantee I'm a

2 living witness to this, that we never intentionally targeted civilians.

3 Possibly if a shell went off course and fell somewhere where a civilian

4 happened to be, that might have happened, but that was his fate if he

5 happened to be killed in such a way. But we never actually targeted

6 civilian facilities or civilians, especially not with snipers, nor did we

7 use them as a weapon in our army.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger. At the same time,

9 looking at the clock, we have to finish. I would like to have one second

10 in the absence of the witness. Could we stop here?

11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, I think so.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, we'll continue next Monday. I would like

13 to see you back at quarter past two in the afternoon in this same

14 courtroom. I would again like to instruct you not to speak with anyone

15 about the testimony you have given already and the testimony you're still

16 about to give next week. Would you please follow the usher.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before adjourning until next Monday,

19 Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like to address you. This Chamber is composed of

20 professional Judges who are fully aware of what it takes to be in a

21 position that you have to defend yourself against charges before a court.

22 We've seen that in our lives many, many times. It does happen less often

23 that in the course of the evidence presented against an accused that the

24 testimony also relates to events that personally will have affected the

25 family life of the accused.

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1 The Chamber just wants to express that it's aware of what it will

2 mean to you to hear testimony about members of your family being victims

3 of this war situation. We just wanted to let you know that even if we are

4 just listening to it as professional Judges and having to take this all

5 into consideration, that that does not mean that we are not aware of what

6 it will mean to you.

7 We will adjourn until next Monday, quarter past two in the

8 afternoon.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of March,

11 2006, at 2.15 p.m.