Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22236

1 Friday, 31 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court].

5 --- Upon commencing at 3.04 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Would you call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this is case number IT-00-39-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

10 Mr. Harmon, are you ready to cross-examine Ms. Cenic?

11 MR. HARMON: I am, Your Honour. Good afternoon.

12 Good afternoon, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to remind you that you're still bound by

14 the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

15 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Harmon:

20 MR. Harmon:

21 Q. Mrs. Cenic.

22 A. [In English] Good afternoon.

23 Q. We're going to have the same problem that Mr. Stewart had in terms

24 of my asking you questions. You will have to delay, if you can, for just

25 a few moments so the interpreters can catch up.

Page 22237

1 A. I understand. Thank you.

2 Q. I would like to get some dates in mind Mrs. Cenic. Specifically

3 you testified you arrived in Vogosca approximately 15th of April. When

4 did you leave Vogosca? Approximately what date?

5 A. [Interpretation] It could have been the beginning of July, and I'm

6 not sure of the exact date unfortunately.

7 Q. Now, I understood your testimony to be that from approximately the

8 beginning part of May until the time you left, you slept and worked in the

9 Park Hotel. Is that a correct understanding?

10 A. More or less so. At the beginning of May, we moved to the Park

11 Hotel.

12 Q. And I understood that you didn't move very much from the Park

13 Hotel because you considered it to be too dangerous.

14 A. My movements from the Park Hotel were to the house of Mr. Tintor,

15 to his parents, who were old and who needed help. Also, to my parents'

16 place where my daughter was staying in Ilijas. Whenever I could get a

17 ride, I would go there.

18 Q. Did you do that frequently?

19 A. As often as I could.

20 Q. Can you give me an estimate to the best of your recollection how

21 many times from May until the time you left the municipality you travelled

22 to those two locations?

23 A. The first location, i.e. Mr. Tintor's house, was rather close so

24 that it wasn't a problem to get there as far as the distance was

25 concerned. And sometimes I would go there daily but, in any case, on

Page 22238

1 several occasions every week. As far as my family in Ilijas is concerned,

2 we are talking a greater distance here, but I would still go there at

3 least twice a week. However, it all depended on the situation. I cannot

4 talk about regular time intervals. It depended on whether I could get a

5 ride and whether I could go there.

6 Q. Now, while you were at the Park Hotel you worked in Mr. Tintor's

7 office; correct?

8 A. Yes, one might call it his office, although Ms. Cvijetic and I

9 shared one room, one office.

10 Q. Were you aware or did you subsequently become aware that

11 Mr. Tintor was a member of the SDS Main Board and a founding member of the

12 SDS?

13 A. Yes, I knew this even before the war.

14 Q. Mrs. Cenic, what was Mr. Tintor's views in respect of the Serb

15 Radical Party in the positions and the philosophy of the Serb Radical

16 Party?

17 A. I never discussed the Serb Radical Party with him. Therefore, I

18 wouldn't be able to tell you.

19 Q. Okay. Now, in your evidence in the last two sessions, you said

20 that you got along well with the people who worked in Mr. Tintor's office.

21 You mentioned Mr. Koprivica, and then you said, "Except for Mr. Tintor,

22 because relations with him were almost non-existent towards the end." Can

23 you explain that?

24 A. If you look at my statement, and I know what I said, I said that

25 when I left and went to Pale and he also left without an intention to

Page 22239

1 return to Vogosca, by then our relationship was almost non-existent, and

2 if there was any relationship, it was really bad before he left as he was

3 getting to leave.

4 Q. And why was that?

5 A. Because Mr. Tintor, in my view, was getting ready to leave us

6 without saying a word to anybody, either to me or to Ms. Cvijetic or

7 anybody for that matter.

8 Q. Did he in fact just one day leave or were you informed by him that

9 he was intending to leave and go to Pale and assume a different position?

10 A. I became aware that he had decided not to return when I was in the

11 Kikinda facility, when I came across him and when I saw that he was

12 waiting to be received by Dr. Karadzic. And I simply realised that he had

13 no intention of returning to Vogosca from there.

14 Q. Do you remember when approximately that was?

15 A. About the same time when I found myself in Pale, although I would

16 return to Vogosca after him. Actually, I went once, and I also went to

17 see my family, and I explained to my family that I would try and find any

18 sort of accommodation for them.

19 Q. And you said that Mr. Tintor assumed the position as an advisor to

20 the president. I'd like to show you an exhibit.

21 And if the exhibits could be distributed.

22 What you'll receive, Mrs. Cenic, is a set of two volumes of

23 materials. They're tabbed on the side, and I'll refer you to a number,

24 and then if you would direct your attention the specific number in the tab

25 we'll talk about the exhibit I've referred you to.

Page 22240

1 This first tab, Mrs. Cenic, is tab 40. If you turn to tab 40.

2 MR. HARMON: It needs a number.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 40, Your Honours, will be P1140. Sorry,

5 Your Honours, P1139.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


8 Q. This document, Mrs. Cenic, is a decision dated the 24th of August,

9 1992. It's a decision on the appointment of the Presidency's advisor, and

10 it indicates that Jovan Tintor is appointed advisor to the Serb republic

11 Presidency for the issues of accommodation and return of refugees, and it

12 is type-signed by the president of the Republika Srpska Presidency,

13 Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

14 Was this the position, Mrs. Cenic, that Mr. Tintor assumed

15 immediately after he left the municipality of Vogosca or was there another

16 position that he may have assumed or do you know?

17 A. I thank you for the opportunity for me to see this document. I

18 claim that already in July Mr. Tintor discussed his future position as an

19 advisor. I know for a fact that it was his wish to be the advisor for

20 reconstruction or something to that effect, and he discussed that matter

21 with Dr. Karadzic, and he negotiated that position with Dr. Karadzic. I

22 know that because as I've already told you, he had spoken to Dr. Karadzic

23 several times, and he voiced a few comments to that effect in front of me

24 as well. I know that this was his wish. However, I can see in this

25 document that he was appointed the advisor for refugees and the

Page 22241

1 accommodation and return of refugees.

2 Q. Now, Mrs. Cenic, you -- your testimony also was that -- that

3 Mr. Tintor travelled frequently to Pale prior to his ultimate departure

4 from --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, may I just interrupt you. I take it that

6 the witness looked at the English version of tab 40. I see tab 40 looks

7 very much as a -- well, kind of a legal text dated the 29th of September

8 1992, whereas the English seems to be a decision on the appointment of the

9 Presidency's advisor. I don't know whether you have a similar original.

10 MR. HARMON: I have an original, Your Honour. Since I can't read

11 the text, I'm trying to find --

12 JUDGE ORIE: It goes for me from something like article or

13 paragraph 16 until 26, but it has got nothing to do apparently --

14 MR. HARMON: If it's been placed in here by error, Your Honour, we

15 will replace it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Mr. Registrar is so kind as to draw my

17 attention to the fact that the English translation, last four digits ERN

18 is 9388, whereas in the original it's 9288. It would be highly

19 appreciated, Mr. Harmon, to have the materials checked. Although the

20 Chamber will assist you but would not like to take over your task.

21 MR. HARMON: Yes. We'll tend to that immediately.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Because it's not the first time.

23 MR. HARMON: Yes.

24 Q. Now, you testified, Mrs. Cenic, that Mr. Tintor travelled

25 frequently to Pale. He met the members of the presidency. He met

Page 22242

1 Mr. Krajisnik. Were you aware that Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Tintor referred

2 to each other as kum?

3 A. I did not attend their meetings, so I wouldn't know, but I know

4 that there is a relationship between the families. One set of parents

5 were godfather and godmother to the other set of parents or something to

6 that effect. I never attended their meetings, and I really don't know how

7 they addressed each other.

8 Q. Okay. Now -- and let me show you a video, Mrs. Cenic. We're

9 going to play it. This is from Prosecution Exhibit 529, Hanson tab 223,

10 and you'll find that, Mrs. Cenic, in tab 47, I'm going to direct you to

11 the English portion that you'll be seeing. You can hear it. If you turn

12 to page 8 of the English portion. We're going to be playing a portion --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I see no paging on the B/C/S original.

14 MR. HARMON: I'm referring to the English, Your Honour.


16 MR. HARMON: And since Mrs. Cenic can read English I was directing

17 her to the English --.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Page 8.

19 MR. HARMON: Page 8. Above the counter number, Mrs. Cenic,

20 0.26:22 we're going to be listening to a part of that film. So if you

21 could pay attention to the monitor in front of you. If you would like to

22 put on your headphones you can hear the interview in the original

23 language.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Organisation of defence. We came to

Page 22243

1 Zuc and we conquered that very important strategic point, and we connected

2 to Pofalici. However, once I officially asked from Pofalici

3 representatives to come for a discussion, they came few times and one time

4 I said that they should come up. However, they didn't. They didn't

5 accept that at the time. They didn't accept that plan. After that, I

6 issued the order twice. I told them that they had to retreat so that we

7 can make an action and go down to the city, because I was informed, I was

8 present at a meeting in Vrace where Mr. Kukanjac was supposed to be

9 present, too. I wasn't lucky to meet him that time, but I met our

10 president, General Subotic, President Karadzic, President Krajisnik, Mico

11 Stanisic, Momcilo Mandic. At that meeting we spoke about getting together

12 to cut the city in two and, well, to enter the city using that bridge, the

13 former fraternity and unity bridge."


15 Q. Mrs. Cenic, first of all, do you recognise the speaker in that

16 video you just saw?

17 A. Yes, that's Jovan Tintor.

18 Q. And to put the conversation in context, there's a reference to

19 Pofalici and essentially an attack, an attempt to divide the city of

20 Sarajevo. Do you recall that only the 14th of May through the 17th of May

21 there was a large offensive action that was taken by the Bosnian Serbs

22 directed toward the city of Sarajevo?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did Mr. Tintor ever discuss with you his meeting with

25 President Karadzic, President Krajisnik, Mico Stanisic, Momcilo Mandic, in

Page 22244

1 an attempt to cut the city of Sarajevo in two?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you remember any conversations that you had with Mr. Tintor

4 where he related to you the nature and substance of the conversations he

5 had had with the Bosnian Serb leadership in Pale when he had returned from

6 Pale to the Vogosca municipality?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. Then we will turn to a different area, Mrs. Cenic.

9 You said in your evidence that when you were working at the Park Hotel you

10 were working with another woman who was Mr. Tintor's secretary, a woman by

11 the name of Branka Cvijetic. Do you remember that testimony?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I'd like to show you another portion of the interview that we have

14 just seen with Mr. Tintor.

15 MR. HARMON: It again, Your Honours, is P529, Hanson tab 223.

16 Q. In English version, Mrs. Cenic, if you turn to tab 47, I will

17 direct you to page 5. The interview that we will be -- the interview

18 segment that we will be hearing will be this portion that starts at the

19 top of the page at counter 0:12:53 and we'll hear down to the last

20 paragraph, 0:15:53. So if we can play that portion of the interview.

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Across Bascarsija, and it means that

23 the secret is how the. I kept it as one of my biggest secrets and I

24 didn't -- I asked for my associates not to reveal this secret, not to let

25 it go public or to let it see the light of day till a certain moment.

Page 22245

1 However, if you know a Djogo, then you know Djogo. Well, in this republic

2 I would say for the others to know.

3 "Well you, see when we received -- when we started arming people -

4 that was just before the war - there were controls everywhere and nothing

5 could pass through. Moreover, when I succeeded in getting one truck of an

6 armament and ammunition to Mokro, I left it in front of the house of my

7 family, and I went to the city to see how and in which way to transport

8 those weapons. I met with Mrs. Biljana Plavsic, and she told me that they

9 had searched her car the same day. What is more, they were so impertinent

10 they took out everything from her purse, I mean her personal things. I

11 took it as a serious warning that I should not try to get to Vogosca in

12 that truck full of weapons and ammunition. However, I formed a wedding

13 procession. I called on my most loyal people, and we put together 32

14 personal vehicles. We loaded them during the night, and the day after we

15 decorated the cars with flowers and then the bride. I had a bride. She

16 was my ex secretary, Ms. Branka, at the time, a girl from Serbia. She was

17 the bride. And I was even shooting in the air while we were passing

18 through Sarajevo as a wedding procession. I mean, I don't remember when I

19 was happy or more satisfied when I -- because my trick worked. We passed

20 through Sarajevo, and the police and all people, a lot of them applauded

21 while we were passing and shooting, like, you know, a wedding procession.

22 "And your trunks with a lot of ammunition and weapons. There were

23 barricades. People thought it strange that Joja Tintor who was always

24 there, and the leadership of the SDS, mostly seen at the press

25 conferences, most of the journalists knew who you were but then again some

Page 22246

1 people who came from the side didn't know who was that man sitting at the

2 corner of the table. Barricades were set up and you were not there."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, there's one major discord between the

4 spoken and the written translation which I'd like to clarify. In writing

5 it says that these cars, "We loaded them with weapon and ammunition during

6 the night." "With weapon and ammunition" does not appear in the oral

7 translation we just received. Could we verify whether this was --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter doesn't remember whether she

9 heard the words "weapons and ammunition." It may well have been the case

10 but it is very difficult to follow.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand the difficulty of -- you can't

12 ask the speakers to slow down a bit, isn't it.

13 Mr. Stewart, could you please together with your team members pay

14 attention to it whether they heard anything to the extent that they heard

15 anything about loading with weapons and ammunition so we know what is the

16 correct translation.

17 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. The -- I'm sorry, I had supposed

18 that the interpreter's booth had got the document that they're giving us a

19 different translation of, because when I -- when I started --

20 JUDGE ORIE: There were a few there were a few differences, for

21 example, also at the end "and you were not there" where it reads "the

22 holiday" -- "you were not at the Holiday Inn." So there are a few

23 differences. I draw your attention to it not to, at this moment, to fully

24 explore it but to find out especially until respect of this loading with

25 weapons and ammunition.

Page 22247

1 MR. STEWART: But the only reason -- sorry, Your Honour, it's not

2 a trivial point, it's -- we have the previous extract and just at the very

3 beginning I got the impression - perhaps wrongly - I got the impression

4 that the interpreter's booth must have got the same document we were

5 looking at and reading that. If they don't, Your Honour, then we end

6 up --

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think they do.

8 MR. HARMON: They received the document.

9 JUDGE ORIE: But it doesn't seen that the interpreters with their

10 own responsibility here, if they, for example, would have heard, "you were

11 not in the" -- "not there" instead of "in the Holiday Inn," of course I

12 would expect them to translate what they hear, although assisted. Yes.

13 Let's not spend -- the only thing I want to know is not to explore the

14 whole of the procedure because I hardly ever heard any inconsistencies,

15 but I noticed there were a few. One of them being of some importance and

16 therefore I'd like to have this --

17 MR. HARMON: I have a suggestion, Your Honour. This is not a very

18 long tape. We can go to the counter at 0:13:31 and we can play and take a

19 matter of minutes if the language assistants are listening in the original

20 language.

21 MR. STEWART: That seems most satisfactory, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, let's go.

23 MR. HARMON: We are now, for the record, starting at counter

24 0:13:32, and if we could play through 0:15:28 or until the interpreters --

25 JUDGE ORIE: As soon as we heard the loading, I think that's the

Page 22248

1 major -- was the imagine are problem. Yes. Please proceed.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] When we started arming people that

4 was just before the war. There were controls everywhere and nothing could

5 pass through. Moreover, when I succeeded in getting one truck of armament

6 and ammunition to Mokro, I left it in front of the house of my family, and

7 I went to town to see how and in which way to transport those weapons. I

8 met with Mrs. Biljana Plavsic, and she told me that they had searched her

9 car the same day. They were so impertinent that they even took out

10 everything from her purse, I mean her personal belongings. I took it as a

11 serious warning that I should not try to get to Vogosca in that truck full

12 of weapons and ammunition. However, I formed a wedding procession. I

13 called on my most loyal people, and we put together 32 personal vehicles.

14 We loaded them with weapons during the night, and the day after we

15 decorated the cars with flowers and then the bride. I had a bride. She

16 was my ex-secretary, Ms. Branka, at the time, a girl from Serbia. She was

17 the bride."

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we have the weapons now but no ammunition.

19 MR. HARMON: Yes, apparently.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, weapons; no ammunition.

22 JUDGE ORIE: All right.

23 MR. HARMON: Perhaps that could be corrected on the record.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So both the oral interpretation and the written

25 translation have some right of existence.

Page 22249

1 Please proceed.


3 Q. Now, Mrs. Cenic, as you can see from the film, Mr. Tintor's quite

4 proud of that coup that he pulled before the war in arming the people of

5 the Vogosca municipality. He also says that he had asked his associates

6 not to reveal it. Did either Mr. Tintor or Ms. Cvijetic reveal it to you?

7 Were you aware of this -- this feat that Mr. Tintor was very proud of?

8 A. I had only heard bits and pieces about a wedding party, not the

9 rest. But if I may add, Mr. Tintor had never been a hero, ever in his

10 life, although he very much liked to think of himself as one.

11 Q. Okay. Now, let me then see if I understand your answer, pull it

12 up. My question was: Were you aware of the provision of arms by

13 Mr. Tintor through the means of this -- of a wedding party that is

14 described in his interview with Risto Djogo?

15 A. As I said, and I can clarify, yes, I had heard bits and pieces

16 about that from Mr. Tintor. I didn't know the details then, and I don't

17 know them now, because Mr. Tintor was given to boasting.

18 Q. Let me show you another excerpt from this very same video,

19 Mrs. Cenic. I am again referring to tab 47 and it is P529, Hanson tab

20 223. I'd like to refer you to page 9 in the English. At the bottom of

21 the page Mrs. Cenic, counter number 0:31:13. And if we could play that

22 portion of the interview with Mr. Tintor.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] So it was then that you took over

25 the Pretis factory which is a very important military industry --"

Page 22250

1 MR. STEWART: The problem we're having here is that although -- of

2 course, the interpretation booth are interpreting. If Mr. -- sorry,

3 Mr. Harmon does not give the page references in the Serbian version,

4 Mr. Krajisnik is unable to follow.

5 JUDGE ORIE: He can follow the spoken text.

6 MR. HARMON: I also -- I gave the counter number which is in the

7 B/C/S version. There's a counter.

8 JUDGE ORIE: It's not in mine.

9 MR. HARMON: I stand corrected.

10 MR. STEWART: I don't mind, Your Honour, if an explanation is

11 given which then does enable Mr. Krajisnik to follow then I'll -- I can

12 just drop out. But I'm registering that at the moment so far he has found

13 difficulty in following.

14 MR. HARMON: Well, he --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try, Mr. Harmon, to accommodate Mr. Krajisnik.

16 At the same time, of course, the words spoken --

17 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. The position is and Your Honour

18 will have sympathy with this, Mr. Krajisnik wishes to both listen and

19 follow the text.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll try to do our utmost best.

21 Mr. Harmon, you were pointing us at page 9, isn't it?

22 MR. HARMON: Page 9, 0:31:13, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just -- page 9. Yes. I was trying to

24 fine the commercial, but -- yes. I think we find it on the page, last

25 three digits 240, where I found at the bottom both the name of, I take it,

Page 22251

1 wrongly spelled, Kukanjac, the Pretis, and the Tas. Yes. It should be --

2 MR. HARMON: It may be at the bottom of 241, Your Honour. If you

3 go to 24 --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Where would you start on page 9, Mr. ...

5 MR. HARMON: I would start at page 9, starting Mr. Djogo.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he appears twice. He appears twice on that

7 page. On the bottom or on the middle?

8 MR. HARMON: At the bottom of the page.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The bottom of the middle, that's page -- last two

10 digits, 41. I take it approximately a little bit below the middle of the

11 page, Mr. Krajisnik. Yes. Let's -- you found it? Yes. Yes. Let's

12 proceed.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] So it was then that you took over

15 the factory Pretis, which is a very important part of military industry.

16 Let's go back, further back to the time before the war. Even before the

17 war you've already seen the NATO base in Zurich. How did you get there

18 and what were you doing there?

19 T: "Well, you see although we received a large amount of arms

20 from our civilian protection from the former Yugoslav People's Army and

21 some things we took by force some things we received and some things we

22 got on this and that way, we had to be provided through our people that

23 were working abroad. They made it possible for me to enter the NATO base

24 in Zurich and there we took, well, pretty solid amount of arms and --"

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't see the last part of the

Page 22252

1 text.

2 MR. HARMON: We're not having much luck, Your Honour, today. For

3 the last part of the text we'll have to go back and -- in the middle of

4 this video and play it again.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The transcript reads "to transport it to our

6 republic."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's -- well, at least the word "republic"

8 appears in the original. If there is any problem, Mr. Stewart, please let

9 us know.


11 Q. Let me -- and then Mrs. Cenic, I want to refer you to tab 25 as

12 well.

13 A. [In English] 25.

14 Q. Yes. I'm going to show you two documents, tabs 25 and 26.

15 MR. HARMON: Tab 25 already has a number, Your Honour. It's P51

16 is. This has been exhibited many times.

17 Q. Mrs. Cenic, if you would -- let me explain what this document is.

18 This document is a document that is dated the -- there's a cover letter of

19 the 20th of March, 1992. It's a military secret. It is directed to the

20 General Staff of the armed forces of the Socialist Federative Republic of

21 Yugoslavia by commander General Colonel Milutin Kukanjac, and this

22 document, if you would turn to the English, page 6 of this document. In

23 this document General Kukanjac has reported to his superiors that on the

24 volunteer units in the zone in the 2nd Military District and in sub-part

25 (b) of his report under number 5 he says that the total number of

Page 22253

1 volunteers is just 69.198 people. And if you go down to (f), he reports

2 that the JNA has distributed 51.900 pieces of armament (75 per cent) and

3 SDS 17.298 pieces.

4 Now, this document needs to be read in conjunction with the

5 document that you'll find in tab 26, which is Prosecution Exhibit P101.

6 This document, an attachment to General Kukanjac's report, lists 75

7 locations, as you'll see, and the numbers are the number of men in -- at

8 those locations.

9 If you turn -- if you look at item 5, Vogosca, it refers to 1.500,

10 and if you go to the total, the total is 69.198. So the number of arms

11 that were distributed to the men is -- this document correlates with the

12 previous document of General Kukanjac's report.

13 We've heard, Mrs. Cenic, from the interview with Mr. Tintor where

14 he said he received arms from the JNA before the war started,

15 General Kukanjac reporting that both the SDS and the JNA were providing

16 arms to volunteers, and 1.400 arms being distributed to volunteers in the

17 Vogosca municipality. Were you aware of that level of organisation and

18 arming of the Bosnian Serb people in the Vogosca municipality prior to the

19 start of the war?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Does this surprise you, Mrs. Cenic?

22 A. Not that it surprises me. It shocks me.

23 Q. Why so?

24 A. Because I was under a different impression. My experience of it

25 all is completely different. This is really the first time that I see how

Page 22254

1 well-armed the Serbs were and that there was such large numbers of people

2 involved. This is a large amount of people. I didn't see as many people.

3 Q. Let me -- it appears then, doesn't it, Mrs. Cenic, that the Serb

4 people of the Vogosca municipality were preparing well in advance of the

5 start of the conflict to arm themselves?

6 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't know that they were this well prepared.

7 They didn't seem well prepared to me at all. Or prepared at all, for that

8 matter. This is an honest reply I'm giving you, and I am here solely for

9 the truth, nothing else. I am indeed shocked that -- even too mild a

10 statement for what I feel. I am shocked by the sheer numbers.

11 If the document indeed refers to Vogosca in mentioning 1.500

12 people, I must say I don't remember seeing as many people at all.

13 Q. Let me take you back to tab 25, Mrs. Cenic, which is

14 General Kukanjac's report, and again if I can refer you, please, to

15 sub-part 5 of his report. Sub-part (f).

16 A. [In English] (f).

17 Q. Dealing with the distribution in weapons. And in this report of

18 General Kukanjac, he says that the SDS distributed 17.298 pieces. What's

19 your reaction to that, Mrs. Cenic?

20 A. [Interpretation] I wonder where these large numbers of SDS members

21 were. If this figure -- or, rather, corresponds to the number of members

22 or if as many pieces of weaponry were intended for as many SDS members,

23 then I wonder where these people were.

24 Q. My question to you, Mrs. Cenic --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could there be -- Mr. Harmon, could there be any

Page 22255

1 confusion?

2 Ms. Cenic, when you gave your last answer where you said you

3 wondered where these people were, what area or what territory did you have

4 in mind? Did you want to say to us that you wondered whether there were

5 so many SDS members in Vogosca, or were you saying that you wonder that

6 there were so many SDS members in the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or

7 were you telling us that you wondered whether so many people were in the

8 municipalities listed on this list in tab 26, which are 75.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me take the answer to your

10 question in the following order: First of all, let's go back to the 1.500

11 volunteers from Vogosca who I had never seen there. I had never seen so

12 many numbers of people in the streets armed, whether they be JNA members,

13 volunteers, or whoever. That's number one.

14 Number two, based on this letter or report by General Kukanjac

15 that so many weapons were distributed to SDS members drives me to ask

16 myself where these people were. I'm simply reasoning logically the war

17 could have been won with such large quantities of weapons had as many

18 weapons been distributed to members of the Serbian Democratic Party.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what the text says. The text says that

20 they were distributed -- General Kukanjac was reporting that both the SDS

21 and the JNA were providing arms to volunteers, not necessarily SDS members

22 but distributed in the amount as Mr. Harmon quoted by JNA or by SDS, the

23 SDS distributing some -- a little bit over 17.000.

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I --


Page 22256

1 MR. STEWART: -- suggest this? That sometimes in the wish to speed

2 things along, with respect, we go too quickly, and the heart of some of

3 what appears to be confusion here lies, I suggest, at page 19, line 6 and

4 7, because in quickly referring this witness to sub-part (f) in the report

5 and simply referring to 17.298 pieces, what seems to have happened is we

6 glossed over the fact that the area being referred to in that bit of the

7 report is different from what was previously being considered in relation

8 to the 1.500 weapons. And if that is borne in mind, my submission is we

9 begin to see how these last few answers have got tangled up.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm trying to --

11 MR. STEWART: I'm being a little cryptic, Your Honour, because I'm

12 not giving evidence and the witness is here. But I'm trying to just draw

13 attention to where the difficulty lies.


15 Ms. Cenic, the 1.500, that's clear. You say, "I didn't see 1.500

16 armed men in Vogosca," so that's a clear answer. Then you also said, "I

17 wondered where these 17.000 would be." Well, 17.000 would be men having

18 been armed.

19 From what I understand, Mr. Harmon, it's at least the position in

20 this report somewhere --

21 MR. HARMON: Right.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- in these 75 municipalities. And when you said, "I

23 wonder where they were," could you not imagine 17.000 Serbs having been

24 armed in 75 municipalities? Is that what you were wondering or were you

25 under the impression that the 17.000 would be in Vogosca or near Vogosca

Page 22257

1 or ...

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, going back to page 6,

3 items 5 (f) it reads that the JNA distributed 51.900 and the SDS 17.298.

4 I apologise. This is the first time I see this. The question was put to

5 me rather quickly, and I had time to chance at item (f). Now, I have no

6 idea about this, but the SDS never appeared to me to be a party that was

7 well off or affluent. That was why I was wondering at this figure. I

8 don't know.


10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the position is, we submit, that one

11 can't really pick out subparagraph (f) here without looking at least at

12 subparagraph (e) and then probably at subparagraph (a), because this is

13 all referring to an area, to start with, at the beginning of this section

14 which is identified on a map, and then subparagraph (e) is referring to a

15 number of listed municipalities. So before -- and this is where we got

16 to, really. Before the witness could fairly be asked to comment on the

17 figure in subparagraph (f), we did need to be as clear as possible to what

18 that figure is.

19 MR. HARMON: May I make a submission as well, Your Honour?


21 MR. HARMON: Subparagraph E deals with a different military

22 district. It deals with the 4th Military District which then lists the

23 municipalities within the 4th Military District. It has no relationship

24 to the volunteers in the 2nd Military District.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's -- let's try to keep things simple.

Page 22258

1 Ms. Cenic, you had any knowledge or no knowledge about

2 distribution of arms by the SDS?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE ORIE: When you said you wondered where they were, I now

5 understand that you were not aware that the SDS would even have the means

6 to provide arms in such quantities. Is that a correct understanding of

7 your last answer?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That sufficiently clarifies the matter. Please

10 proceed.

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It sufficiently clarifies the matter at this point.

13 MR. STEWART: I must make a submission, Your Honour. Mr. Harmon's

14 comment, of course he's trying to help us all to unravel this as well, but

15 he draws attention to the fact the 2nd Military District is different from

16 the 4th Military District but, Your Honour, it's nevertheless mentioned

17 specifically. Your Honour, it is not sufficiently clear in my submission

18 where we --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart. Mr. Stewart. Mr. Stewart. I

20 eliminated the whole of what districts whatsoever. The witness clearly

21 testified, and I was not putting this in her mouth but it was her last

22 answer, that she was surprised and wondered that the SDS would be well off

23 enough to provide these arms, and that is a clear answer. And where 2nd

24 Military District and whatever else, I did not understand the witness

25 to -- to further specify that, but if her answer would not be true in

Page 22259

1 general and would be limited to only the 2nd or the 4th Military District,

2 she'll tell us.

3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, with respect, the question Your Honour

4 put at line 18 of page 22, given the confusion that there had plainly been

5 over the previous few minutes is not sufficiently clear because it needs

6 to be made clear whether Your Honour was asking about the SDS in the whole

7 of Bosnia-Herzegovina or some big area or some small area, because such is

8 the ambiguity and uncertainty about what we were dealing with that one

9 cannot simply take that question and answer at face value without it being

10 absolutely plain that the witness understands exactly what area is being

11 spoken about.


13 Ms. Cenic, when you said more or less that you were surprised that

14 the SDS would have been well enough -- well off to distribute those arms.

15 Did you speak in general about SDS in Bosnia-Herzegovina or ...

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have any specific area or

17 part of the country in mind. The figure as such to me seemed rather high,

18 and I didn't know just as I don't know now as I'm looking at this piece of

19 paper that the SDS could have secured such large amounts regardless of who

20 the weapons were intended for or which areas.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


23 Q. Mrs. Cenic, aside from your reservations about whether the SDS was

24 affluent enough to have secured 17.298 weapons, are you surprised that

25 they were distributing weapons in the time prior to the start of the war?

Page 22260

1 A. I am surprised. I'm surprised by the quantity. I did see

2 weapons. Of course I did, because the security guards for Dr. Karadzic

3 and others carried weapons. Furthermore, Mr. Tintor, as you already know,

4 traded in weapons. He had a weapons shop before the war. It was

5 registered to sell weapons.

6 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Mrs. Cenic. I move to another

7 subject if the Court has no questions.

8 Mrs. Cenic, you testify -- I want to talk about the takeover the

9 municipality building, and your testimony was that the municipality

10 building was empty and that Mr. Tintor, Koprivica, and others, entered the

11 building and essentially tried to organise the work of the municipality.

12 Is the municipality building the same as the Assembly building?

13 A. Yes. That's the municipality building in Vogosca where the

14 management of the municipality is located, to put it that way.

15 Q. Now, were you present when Mr. Tintor and others entered that

16 building, or did you just hear about it from Mr. Tintor and others?

17 A. No. I wasn't there, and I stated that in my statement.

18 Q. If we could turn to the next exhibit, which is found at tab 35.

19 This needs a number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1140, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


23 Q. This is a -- an article from Nas Glas it's dated 13th of July

24 1992. The headline is "Vogosca Has Perspective" and it's an interview

25 with Rajko Koprivica. And I'd like to direct your attention -- I'll just

Page 22261

1 read part it. I'm going to ask you your comments.

2 "On the" -- and I'm starting at the top of the article,

3 Mrs. Cenic.

4 "On the occasion of the 3-month existence of Vogosca Serbian

5 municipality, journalists in Nas Glas and the Serbian radio talked with

6 Rajko Koprivica, the President of the Executive Board. Mr. President,

7 could you summarise events in Vogosca during the past three months?" The

8 answer: "Despite the fact that it's been three months, the Serbian

9 municipality of Vogosca started functioning only since and month and a

10 half ago. During the period prior to that, it existed formally, because

11 we thought that we would manage to reach a peaceful agreement with the

12 opposing side on the division of power based on the principle of four

13 local communes where the Muslim people are the majority in four of which

14 the Serbian people are the majority. This proposal surprised them and

15 they categorically rejected it. Right before the war there was a period

16 of calm in which they got into the assembly and put pressure on Serbian

17 deputies with the help of the left bloc. Thinking that we would lose

18 power without a single bullet fired, we set up a Crisis Staff and one

19 morning stormed the Assembly building and took control of. When they saw

20 that, they asked for negotiations but not on the principle of four local

21 communes but on the principle of majority population."

22 Now, this article is interesting. It asserts -- Mr. Koprivica

23 asserts that there was a Crisis Staff that was set up and that the Crisis

24 Staff was set up at least prior to the building being stormed. Is there

25 any reason you have to dispute that assertion?

Page 22262

1 A. As I can see, the date is 13 July, and the article speaks about

2 three months, which corresponds to the period that I have spoken about. I

3 know and I've said that, that they entered the municipality, that there

4 was nobody there, and that there was no fighting. That's one thing that I

5 know. And the second thing I know is the fact that there was a body and

6 that even before that, as I've already stated, they would meet in

7 Mr. Koprivica's house from time to time for consultations, that there was

8 a Crisis Staff and then the Presidency of the municipality I know as well.

9 I know nothing about any negotiations because I never participated

10 in any.

11 Q. Well, that was going to be my next question, because Mr. Koprivica

12 asserts in this article that after the municipal building -- the Assembly

13 building was stormed that the Muslims wanted to engage in negotiations,

14 and my question is: What did you hear about that? Did you hear anything

15 about that?

16 A. I don't know the details of that. I don't know how the

17 negotiations developed. I really don't know. I wasn't present. I wasn't

18 there.

19 Q. Prior to the start of the war in the Vogosca municipality or prior

20 to the takeover - I'm sorry - of the Assembly building that we've just

21 been talking about, had you heard Mr. Kopravica or Mr. Tintor saying

22 things to the effect that "We can't live with the Muslims any longer"?

23 A. Honestly, I don't remember a conversation to that effect with any

24 one of them. Especially I don't remember Mr. Kopravica ever saying that.

25 Mr. Tintor would sometimes be rather radical in his statements, but

Page 22263

1 Mr. Kopravica never uttered any word to that effect. I haven't heard him

2 say anything like that.

3 Q. Now, following the takeover of the municipality building, were you

4 aware, Mrs. Cenic, that Bosnian Muslim civilians were arrested and

5 detained in the Vogosca municipality?

6 A. I know of just one prison, if I can call it that, which was near

7 the Sonja restaurant. I believe that there were one or two rooms there

8 and since I never went there, I never entered those premises, I can't give

9 you the surface of those rooms. I know that this was a very small house,

10 a very small building across the road from the restaurant itself. I don't

11 know of anything else of that sort.

12 Q. When did you become aware of the prison at Sonja's restaurant?

13 A. I can't give you the date with any degree of certainty. I believe

14 that this was during the time when we were at the Park Hotel, and I

15 believe that I heard it from a policeman. The only policeman that I never

16 spoke to. His name is Brane Vlaco. I remember his name because he was on

17 the police force.

18 Q. Did you ever hear then or subsequently, up to the present time,

19 that the restaurant at Sonja's house was a location where Muslim women

20 were held against their will and raped?

21 A. No. Later on when I came to Vogosca with that journalist, that

22 restaurant was the place where somebody was accommodated, somebody whose

23 name I can't remember. I remember what he looked like. He was killed

24 later on. But at the same time, the restaurant was patroned by some

25 officers of the peace corps. So I really can't confirm. I can't remember

Page 22264

1 that any such thing happened in this restaurant.

2 When I arrived once or two times, when I went to that restaurant I

3 really didn't see any such thing. I didn't see anything there.

4 Q. Mrs. Cenic, if you would kindly turn to tab 2. This is a picture

5 we're familiar with in this court. It's Prosecution Exhibit [inaudible].

6 This is a house that's known as Planja's house, and it gives an address.

7 The Court has heard considerable evidence about that house being a prison

8 and indeed the -- there is a document that the Court has seen also which

9 is Prosecution Exhibit 1097 in which on the 7th of July the Vogosca

10 municipality secretariat for town planning essentially allocated this

11 house as a prison to be used by the Ministry of Justice.

12 First off, have you ever seen this house? Are you familiar with

13 this house? I know the address is indicated on the right -- lower

14 right-hand side.

15 A. Yes, I can see the house, but I personally can't remember it.

16 Q. Did you ever --

17 A. I may have passed this house. I'm not excluding the possibility.

18 But I can't say anything else. If I said anything else it would be pure

19 speculation on my part.

20 Q. So you can't help us with this house being used as a prison in

21 Vogosca municipality in 1992?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. All right. Then let me turn your attention to another part of

24 your evidence. You testified that -- and this is found at LiveNote pages

25 22 and 23 on day 248, you were asked if there were any type of organised

Page 22265

1 unit of soldiers, and your answer was: "At the time, during the first

2 weeks of confusion that prevailed, there were no organised units." And

3 you went on to say that you didn't see any units of the former JNA

4 present, but on one occasion you had seen Mr. Tintor in the presence of 50

5 men dressed in various types of clothes and armed.

6 Now, other than seeing that one particular group of people, did

7 you see any other groups of soldiers in the municipality?

8 A. No, not soldiers. There was the police and there was this group

9 of people that subsequent organised themselves into some units. I didn't

10 see any other troops. I did not see any other army at the time.

11 Q. If we could turn next, Mrs. Cenic, to tab 48. This is Prosecution

12 Exhibit P601. This is the -- this is a text of an intercepted telephone

13 communication on the 6th of April between Danilo Veselinovic and Jovan

14 Tintor, and it's not a long text. If you could just cast your eye on it

15 quickly. I'm going to just direct your attention to a part of it that's

16 on page 2. Why don't you cast your eye on the whole text, Mrs. Cenic,

17 very quickly. Let me know what you at least --

18 A. [In English] Second page.

19 Q. Take a look at the whole intercept if you would.

20 A. On the second page.

21 Q. All the pages?

22 A. All the pages.

23 Q. For your information, Mrs. Cenic, as well, I should have told you

24 there is a B/C/S version of the intercept behind the English version, if

25 it's easier for you.

Page 22266

1 A. We may proceed, please.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 A. Thank you.

4 Q. Do you know Mr. Veselinovic?

5 A. [Interpretation] Yes. I met him.

6 Q. Mr. Veselinovic was also a member of the Main Board of the SDS.

7 Are you aware of that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in this conversation, Mrs. Cenic, if you turn to page 2 of the

10 English version, line 29, Mr. Tintor says: "Well, we have that section

11 completely under control, the army from my area." So on April the 6th,

12 1992, in this conversation at least, Mr. Tintor is referring to an army.

13 A. Allow me just a few sentences. First of all, Jovan Tintor

14 organised through the entire street the so-called Old Reljevo street some

15 sort of guards of -- a guards' duty, because a lot of the population there

16 had lost many members of their families during the Second World War. Mr.

17 Vlado Tintor also lost some members of his family. This is the only army,

18 if he's referring to anything as an army, that I saw in my whole life.

19 Those were there. Those were men who resided in those houses and nothing

20 else. And I know that.

21 As for any other army that Mr. Tintor mentions in here, I've never

22 heard or seen any such thing. And if you allow me just a brief comment,

23 Mr. Tintor liked to brag a lot and exaggerate a lot. I repeat, this is

24 the only thing I saw. I never saw anything else there.

25 Q. Let me direct your attention, Mrs. Cenic, to tab 4.

Page 22267

1 MR. HARMON: This needs a number.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 4, Your Honour will be P1141.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, on my list tab 4 is an -- P529, tab 220.

5 MR. HARMON: I have a new list, Your Honour I'm sorry -- I've been

6 provided with a new list. So tab 4, Your Honour, does have a number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: P1141, Your Honours, would be available then.

8 MR. HARMON: It is P529, tab 220. This document, for the record,

9 is an entitled Recapitulation of "Counter-transactions of Crisis Staff

10 Cashier's Office from 1 May to 31 May 1992." Under sub-part 1 it

11 indicates incoming payments, and it gives a sum, and the first item of

12 incoming payments is aid SRBiH, 5 million dinars. And if you go down to

13 outgoing statements from the Crisis Staff, which is subparagraph 2 and if

14 you go to the penultimate figure in that column, you see that 14.215.000

15 dinars was paid out by the Crisis Staff for soldiers' daily allowance.

16 Q. Now, this document, Mrs. Cenic, suggests that during the month of

17 May there was -- there were considerable monies paid out to soldiers on

18 behalf of the Crisis Staff. May I invite your comments on that, please?

19 A. First of all, I really don't know who Radovan Bilic is. Was that

20 the gentleman who -- whom I knew as Raso or maybe somebody else? I really

21 don't know. Second of all, as for the outgoing statements, I really don't

22 know what to say. I don't know anything about them.

23 Q. Well, again, I want to return, Mrs. Cenic, to the topic that we

24 are discussing, and that is that there were no organised units in the

25 municipality in the early part of the conflict. You'd mentioned Boro

Page 22268

1 Radic, and in your evidence I recall you mentioned that Boro Radic was a

2 tough guy. He had approximately 12 people around him. They had pistols.

3 They're more the equivalent of a street gang than an army. And I'd like

4 to direct your attention to tab 36.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Before doing so, Mr. Harmon, could you or could the

6 Defence assist me? Approximately the exchange rate at that time, what

7 would be a million dinars? Well, I take it, it was always -- it was

8 always converted in Deutschmarks, but -- or could the witness tell us? Do

9 anyone know? I mean, 14 million.

10 MR. HARMON: Sounds like a lot, of course.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Sounds a lot but --

12 DEFENCE COUNSEL: I'm afraid nobody including Mr. Krajisnik is

13 able to produce that off-the-cuff, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited to inform the Chamber, whoever knows

15 first, to inform the Chamber.

16 MR. STEWART: It's a competition between us then, Your Honour.

17 We'll see what we can do.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you draw the attention of the witness to --

19 MR. HARMON: I want to draw your attention -- first of all, I want

20 to draw your attention to a number of documents that in respect of Mr.

21 Radic's unit. If we take a look at tab 36, it does need a number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1141, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


25 Q. This is a document, Mrs. Cenic, that appears to be a list of 22

Page 22269

1 people, which you'll see. It is -- it starts at -- it's identified as the

2 special detachment at the top. The first person involved is Boro Borislav

3 Radic who is identified as the commander. And then at the bottom it is

4 written the signature Radic Borislav. So this appears -- and I'm sorry

5 there also appears to be a date of May the 25th, 1992. So this unit

6 appears to be a -- at least according to this item, a formal unit

7 commanded by Mr. Radic numbering 22 men.

8 What I'd like to do is turn your attention to tab 29, and then I'm

9 going to ask you some questions. 29 also needs a number.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

11 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Let me just take a look at --

12 before I say that, let my double-check.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the number.

14 MR. HARMON: It has a number, it's P529, tab 213. I'm sorry, 309.

15 Q. Mrs. Cenic -- that's not the exhibit. I'm sorry. Tab 39. Tab 39

16 does need an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1142, Your Honours.


19 Q. This is -- this is also a document dated the 27th of June, 1992.

20 It is -- at the top it says Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

21 Serbian municipality of Vogosca War Commission. The subject of this is a

22 request for issuing the vehicle, and it is essentially a request by the

23 applicant, whose name is Ljubomir Tosovic, for a Golf vehicle, and

24 identifies Mr. Tosovic as being part of the special unit of Boro Radic.

25 So it appears that unit that Mr. Radic was a -- was a special

Page 22270

1 unit, though, part of the armed formations that were in the Vogosca

2 municipality, and they appear to be making requests to the War Commission,

3 which is essentially the local government organisation. May I invite your

4 comments on this document?

5 A. I can give you my comments on every single document. Let me start

6 with the first document first. The list of people that I can see here, I

7 knew most of them, and the date is 25th of May. In my testimony, I've

8 already said that at that time, i.e., when the line-up of these people

9 took place, they actually became a unit. At that time, Boro Radic didn't

10 play any role, save the one that I mentioned.

11 I can also give you some names of people. For example, number 17,

12 Zeljko Djuricic Kelja, whom I know well; Predrag Zarkovic Bozur, Sasa

13 Vejin, Ljubomir Tosovic Suber, Slavisa Savic Sava, Radomir Prodanovic Gaga

14 Slavisa Vukovic [as interpreted] Sava, Branislav Josipovic Josa, Sale Sasa

15 Ivanovic. All those were lads or at least some of them. For example,

16 under 17, Zeljko Djuricic Kelja, and Radomir Prodanovic Gaga, who also

17 slept in the Park Hotel next to my room or across the hallway from my

18 room.

19 Some of the others either stayed in their houses. A lot of them

20 are no longer amongst the living. For example, Predrag Zarkovic Bozur is

21 no longer living. A few others are not alive either.

22 Later on, as I've already told you, tensions between Boro Radic

23 and Jovan Tintor came to a head, and the issue at stake was control,

24 influence, and the underlying issue's always power, of course. I'm not

25 excluding the possibility that these men were incorporated into some

Page 22271

1 units. Boro Radic's unit. As for the request to issue a Golf vehicle, I

2 had to laugh when this man is called a member of a special unit because

3 whoever knew Tosovic would know that he looked more like a child than a

4 special.

5 And if I can provide another comment. In this wretched war that

6 is behind us, every single person liked to call themself special, although

7 they didn't look anything like specials. This would be my comment. This

8 is what I know. Most of these men are no longer alive.

9 When I departed, I don't know what -- what happened to that

10 so-called unit. I really don't know.

11 Q. Well, let me direct your attention, Mrs. Cenic, to tab 37. This

12 needs a number?

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1143, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


16 Q. P1143, Mrs. Cenic is a document from the army of Republika Srpska

17 Vogosca brigade command dated the 30th of December, 1992, and it's an

18 order. And if you look at sub-part 1, under around, it says the Boro

19 Radic Intervention Platoon of the Brigade commanded by Slavica Vukovic is

20 hereby disbanded, and then it goes on it list a number of people in this.

21 So if you do as I have done, Mrs. Cenic, I won't ask you to do the

22 same exercise, but if you do a comparison of the names in the document

23 that's in tab 36, the special detachment which is dated the 25th of May

24 and you do a comparison of the names in the document in tab 37, you will

25 find, for example, that many of the names are the same names. For

Page 22272

1 example, I'll quickly identify them. At tab 37 you'll find in the first

2 company, you'll find four names. Branislav Josipovic, Ljubomir Tosovic,

3 Zivorad Markovic, and Nebojsa Trifkovic, as being in the same group of

4 people as in the exhibit that's found in tab 36.

5 If you go to the 2nd Company, you'll find item number 4, Boro

6 Jovicic appears on the other list as well. If you go to the last list of

7 names in the English version, which is the brigade's Reconnaissance

8 Platoon, you'll find that numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4 also appear on the first

9 list.

10 So it appears, Mrs. Cenic, that the group of Radic special

11 detachment soldiers identified on the 25th of May appear to have been

12 incorporated into the Vogosca brigade itself and ultimately was disbanded

13 on the -- by order on the 30th of September, 1992. So it appears that

14 these people became incorporated into the -- into the army. My -- my

15 question to you, Mrs. Cenic, is: What was your degree of awareness that

16 Mr. Radic's group of soldiers was responsive to the Crisis Staff, to the

17 command of the Bosnian Serb army? Are you in a position to assist us on

18 that?

19 A. Sir, I can only say what I've been saying in the past couple of

20 days, that later on these so-called units were placed under army command,

21 because there was this military organisation. I said so explicitly. I

22 believe I even mentioned the name of the major who I thought was commander

23 of the entire region.

24 I know that after Boro Radic was killed his, or, rather, the unit

25 was named after him. I see these documents for the first time.

Page 22273

1 Boro Radic himself was not answerable or accountable to either the

2 Crisis Staff or the Presidency or the commission of Vogosca. As I said,

3 I'm repeating, there was always this tension or even competitiveness, I'd

4 say, between Tintor and Radic. In trying to think back about those events

5 so many years later, I might even remember some more information, but I

6 can't realty moment. I know the name of Miladen Trifunovic, and I

7 remember quite a few of these names because at the time of this first

8 grouping or the line-up, I don't know which -- how I called it, quite a

9 few of the people mentioned here were present there.

10 Q. Mrs. Cenic, did you know Boro Radic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What were his duties in respect of the Muslims in the Vogosca

13 community?

14 A. I don't know what to tell you really. He was quite a difficult

15 man to talk to. He was barely literate. Our conversations boiled down to

16 simple sentences. We didn't go into any political, social, or - God

17 forbid - cultural discussions.

18 Q. Did you ever hear him express any anti-Muslim views, anti-Croat

19 views, extremists' views of any kind?

20 A. We didn't talk about that, believe me. I only know that his first

21 or second wife was Muslim, if I remember. I believe he was married twice.

22 One of his wives was Muslim or a Bosniak. I am certain that the two of us

23 didn't have any other conversations.

24 Q. Let me then change the topic slightly.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Harmon, you are aware of the limited time

Page 22274

1 you have.

2 MR. HARMON: I am aware, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And I have noticed that even we'll have to finish --

4 we can't finish at 7.00. We have even to finish a little bit earlier than

5 that. So now we have -- it's clear from the answers of this witness that

6 she had not detailed knowledge of many things that were described in

7 written documents, so I wonder how important it would be to pursue this

8 matter any further.

9 MR. HARMON: On this particular matter I've ended my examination,

10 Your Honour. I'm just -- I was informed yesterday that I had three hours.

11 I'm just interested to know --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think I said to stay well within three hours.

13 MR. HARMON: I intend to do that, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's move on.

15 MR. HARMON: When will we take the break?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break with the -- we'll have to

17 stop not later than quarter to seven, unfortunately, due to the --

18 MR. HARMON: That's fine.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we have one break a little bit longer

20 than usual, but I need the -- I need the approval of the interpreters and

21 the technicians, which would mean we would stop in approximately five

22 minutes from now, and then to resume at 20 minutes past five and then to

23 go on. And that of course, then, on from 20 minutes past five, Mr. Harmon

24 it would not be all your time.

25 MR. HARMON: I understand that, Your Honour. I'll finish within

Page 22275

1 the time. The Court doesn't have to worry about that.

2 MR. HARMON: I'm trying to bring down the average that the Court

3 referred to yesterday.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

5 MR. HARMON: Yes.

6 Q. Let me just direct your attention next, Mrs. Cenic, to tab 3.

7 A. [In English] Tab 3.

8 Q. Yes this is Prosecution Exhibit 1091. This is a transcript of a

9 film that was a ceremony, and it was held on, if I recall, the 15th of

10 May, 1992, in which Mr. Seselj anointed a number of new Chetnik vojvodas.

11 Let me direct your attention to page 2 of this document, the English

12 version. The counter number 00:34:36.

13 And you'll see a number of Chetnik -- a number of individuals were

14 given the rank of Chetnik vojvoda, one of whom, the third line from the

15 bottom, was man by the name of Jovo Ostojic. Did you know Jovo Ostojic?

16 Were you acquainted with him? Did you run into him when you were in the

17 Vogosca municipality, Ms. Cenic?

18 A. [Interpretation] I really don't remember, no. I'm trying to

19 remember the name. Did the gentleman have a nickname of any sort?

20 Because we knew each other by nicknames rather than by anything else.

21 Q. Does the nickname Cica ring a bell? If you look at the text on

22 page 2 and you see his name, you'll see in front of it -- it could well

23 be --

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. -- the previous person as well. So I don't see a nickname. You

Page 22276

1 mentioned in your evidence yesterday that there were paramilitary members

2 that you observed who were quite frightening. They wore, I think, skull

3 insignias and various sorts of insignia that would frighten the people.

4 Where did you see those paramilitaries, Mrs. Cenic? Did you see those

5 people in the Vogosca municipality?

6 A. Yes. As I said, as far as I remember, they came on two occasions,

7 but none of the names mentioned here. Rather, it was Vaske Vidovic.

8 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, is this the appropriate time? I have to

9 go into two other exhibits very quickly, but I don't want to --

10 JUDGE ORIE: The two other exhibits we'll do it still in the time

11 available on the tape.


13 Q. All right. If that case if you take a look, please, at tab 15.

14 This needs a number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 15, Your Honours, will be P1144.


17 Q. And we're going to be looking at that document as well in

18 conjunction with the document that's found at tab 16, Mrs. Cenic. The

19 document at tab 16 has a number. It's P762, tab 9.

20 Let's start with the first document at tab 15. This is a document

21 from the Vogosca Serbian municipality Executive Board. It is dated the

22 28th of July, 1992, and it's to the War Commission, and the subject is a

23 remuneration for volunteers, and it indicates that -- and I'll read the

24 text: "Volunteers engaged under the command of Jovo Ostojic, approval has

25 been given in principle by representatives of Vogosca municipality that

Page 22277

1 remuneration for the month of July be 300 Deutschmarks based on the

2 exchange rate of 150 dinars for one Deutschmark."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Deal with the first, Mr. --

4 MR. HARMON: I'm just going to say we have solved the previous

5 problem, Your Honour.

6 Q. "We would like you to -- we would like to ask you to make the

7 appropriate decision in order to regulate this issue legally, formally,"

8 and it's signed by the president Rajko Kopravica.

9 And if we turn then to tab -- the next tab, 16. This is a

10 document that's in connection with the previous document. It's from the

11 Serbian municipality of Vogosca, wartime commission, dated the 30th of

12 July, 1992. And I'll just read this document: "Pursuant to the decision

13 of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

14 number 01-33/92 of 10 June 1992, the wartime commission of the Serbian

15 municipality of Vogosca reviewed at its session held on the 29th of July,

16 1992, a request submitted by the Executive Committee of the Municipal

17 Assembly for a decision to be made on paying volunteers under Jovo

18 Ostojic's command. The wartime commission adopted the follow conclusion:

19 "1. In light of the military and political situation, the wartime

20 commission believes that the soldiers of the Sosa detachment under Jovo

21 Ostojic's command are indispensable for the defence of the Serbian

22 municipality of Vogosca and that the necessary funds must be found to pay

23 them.

24 "2. In light of this assessment we have no objections to the

25 manner, extent, and time of payment which the Executive Committee shall

Page 22278

1 decide upon."

2 It says "For the wartime commission." I would just first like to

3 ask you, Ms. Cenic, if you could turn to the original page in the B/C/S at

4 the lower right-hand portion there are two signatures. Can you identify

5 those two signatures for us?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, paramilitary formations, when you were in the Vogosca

8 municipality, Mrs. Cenic, did you see paramilitary formations that -- of

9 individuals who dressed in what we have -- what's been referred to as

10 Chetnik garb?

11 A. The only paramilitary detachment or group that I saw was the one I

12 already mentioned, and I said where they came from. As for the Susa

13 detachment here, I don't know about it. I can see by the date that it's

14 late July. I don't know. Jovo Ostojic, his first and last name really

15 don't match up with any of the faces I knew there. Perhaps the gentleman

16 had a nickname that I knew him by. At any rate, I find his name

17 unfamiliar.

18 Q. Let me return to the man you named. Was it Vaske Vidovic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where did you see him?

21 A. As I said, he came to Vogosca twice with his group of men. He

22 went to the Park Hotel. There were no incidents related. I know him from

23 Ilijas. Among other things, when Mr. Kent arrived who wanted to see

24 everything, I showed him what this part of war folklore was like, and I

25 apologise for this rather rough coinage, but I wanted him to see the

Page 22279

1 people, to get to know them, and to film them.

2 Q. What was Mr. Vidovic doing at the Park Hotel, from your

3 observations?

4 A. He arrived. He saw where we were located at the time. He sat

5 there for a while and then left. One of the girls, I believe there were

6 two of them -- I believe he even brought his daughter along. There was

7 there was never girl there to came asking for cough syrup or something of

8 the sort. They were asking about some other medicines as well. That was

9 this particular event which had to do with Vogosca. And I received a gift

10 from him which was a crocheting piece of work or tapestry or something.

11 Q. Was Mr. Vidovic there alone or was he with members of his armed

12 formation?

13 A. There were several people with him.

14 Q. Were they -- did they appear to be members of his same armed

15 formation?

16 A. They were with him, so that means ...

17 MR. HARMON: At this point, Your Honour, I may have some

18 additional questions, but I'm conscious of the time. So --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I did some of calculations. 14 million at the

20 level of 300 Deutschmarks a month at an exchange rate of 150 dinars for

21 one Deutschmark brings us to, if paid equally, if paid on the same level

22 to some 300 soldiers.

23 We will adjourn until 20 minutes past five. I said earlier that I

24 needed the consent of the interpreters. Do I have it? Yes. And then

25 we'll stop at a quarter to seven. Thank you.

Page 22280

1 --- Recess taken at 4.51 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 5.22 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.

4 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, let me begin by just informing the Court

5 that the document in tab 40, the B/C/S has now been replaced with the

6 proper B/C/S.

7 Q. Mrs. Cenic, let me begin by where we ended, because the text of

8 the transcript had an incomplete answer, and I need to get your complete

9 answer. You were -- I was asking you the question whether Mr. Vidovic was

10 alone or was he with members of his armed formation. Your answer

11 was: "There were several people with him."

12 The next question I asked you was: "Did they appear to be members

13 of your same armed formation." And your answer as it appears on the

14 transcript, "They were with him, so that means," and then there are some

15 ellipses. Could you complete your answer?

16 A. I think they were there, yes, as part of his unit or group.

17 Q. Do I understand that you saw him only on one occasion at the Park

18 Hotel or more than one occasion?

19 A. I think that I saw him on two occasions, as far as I remember, not

20 more than that.

21 Q. Okay. Again on the second occasion was he with members of his

22 unit?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Again, was he merely having a drink at the Park Hotel or was he

25 conducting some form of business insofar as you could see?

Page 22281

1 A. As far as I'm concerned, they had no special business to conduct

2 there. On both these occasions, as I said -- or, rather, on one of these

3 occasions there was this girl asking for medicine.

4 Q. All right. We've exhausted that topic, Mrs. Cenic. I'm going to

5 turn to another part of your evidence from yesterday.

6 Yesterday, you testified that during the time that you were in

7 Vogosca you were unaware of any instructions given by anybody in Pale to

8 people in Vogosca in relation to matters in Vogosca.

9 MR. HARMON: That testimony, Your Honours, is found at page 41,

10 lines 5 through 7.

11 Q. And let me first of all begin by showing you some exhibits. If we

12 could start at tab 8. This has -- 8 is Exhibit number P529, tab 322.

13 Mrs. Cenic, this is the conclusion. It bears the date of 17th of May,

14 1992, in the lower left-hand corner but it is from the SSOV Serb Crisis

15 Staff meeting that was held on the 16th of May, 1992. And I direct your

16 attention to item number 1. It says: "An order is being issued for the

17 takeover the army barracks at Semizovac. It is being placed under the

18 command of the SSOV Crisis Staff, which is under the sole command of the

19 Serb republic of BH."

20 Now, that, Mrs. Cenic, indicates that the Crisis Staff was in a

21 subordinate relationship and under a command relationship from the Serb

22 republic of BH. And you have given us your early -- your earlier evidence

23 at that Mr. Kopravica, Mr. Tintor, other people who held positions of

24 power were going to Pale to meet with members of the leadership, and

25 including Mr. Krajisnik, including Mr. Karadzic.

Page 22282

1 Do you -- are you aware of those individuals receiving orders, any

2 kind of orders from the people at the republic level?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Let me direct your attention to the second item in this, and I'm

5 going to ask you to comment on it. In part 2 of this conclusion it

6 says: "From the cleansing of Svrake and other territories, one more man

7 is to be secured apart from M. Borovcanin. The territory of Semizovac is

8 to be ociscen in the -- in case there was shooting by terrorists and those

9 trying to do provocations."

10 First of all, do you know who M. Borovcanin is?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know what happened in Svrake to the Muslim population?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Let me direct your attention to item number 5. Item number 5

15 says: "Muslim and Croat staff at the Vogosca medical centre is to be put

16 on hold."

17 Do you know, Mrs. Cenic, what happened to the Muslim and Croat

18 staff at the medical centre?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Was there any discrimination against Muslim or Croat employees in

21 public enterprises in the Vogosca municipality while you were there?

22 A. I didn't enter the premises and wasn't staff member of the

23 companies or, rather, employee of the companies in Vogosca. There were

24 only a few businesses that were active.

25 Q. Did you hear of any reports while you were there, Mrs. Cenic, that

Page 22283

1 Muslim or Croat employees lost their jobs after the takeover of the

2 Municipal Assembly building?

3 A. The municipality had mixed staff, and the only logical inference I

4 could make was that they had all been dismissed or had lost their jobs.

5 Q. Now, let me ask you finally to turn your attention to item number

6 7. It says: "The proper leaders of the military are obliged to submit

7 daily reports on the situation in the brigade."

8 Can you tell us what brigade Mr. Jovanovic was referring to?

9 A. I don't even know this gentleman, Rajko Jovanovic, and I can only

10 assume that this has to do with this newly established brigade or group

11 that I had described which had been -- or which, rather, was later on

12 divided into some units.

13 Q. And you can't enlighten us further on this brigade in Vogosca as

14 of the 16th of May, 1992?

15 A. No. This is the first time I see the document.

16 Q. Now, again focusing on your evidence that there were -- you were

17 unaware of any instructions being received from Pale to Vogosca in respect

18 of the events that were taking place in Pale, let me turn your attention

19 to tab 33. This is previously exhibited document. It's found at P529,

20 tab 120.

21 Mrs. Cenic, this is an order, and it is an order that is dated the

22 17th of June, 1992, Pale, from prime minister Professor Dr. Branko Djeric.

23 And if you look at the item number 1, it is an order to the wartime

24 Presidency and the Executive Board of the municipality of Vogosca to

25 urgently take all necessary steps to make the production of Pretis holding

Page 22284

1 possible.

2 Then if you go down to item number 2 of the English, you'll

3 see "The wartime Presidency is ordered to take all necessary steps to

4 prevent theft." And it goes on, and it concludes in item number 4 that

5 the order is to be carried out immediately and a written report on this is

6 to be sent to the government of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina.

8 So this is one example, Mrs. Cenic, of orders that were coming

9 from Pale to the authorities in Vogosca to perform certain tasks in

10 Vogosca. Does this in any way refresh your recollection or your

11 testimony, change your testimony in any way as to what you said yesterday,

12 that was that you weren't aware of any such orders?

13 A. It doesn't change my testimony. I had never seen any instructions

14 issued throughout the time I was there. This document I see here for the

15 first time now.

16 Q. Did you have access to documents that were coming from Pale to

17 Mr. Tintor and to the Crisis Staff?

18 A. I had access to some documents, yes, to the extent that the

19 documents were available to me. As I said, I -- I've seen this particular

20 document for the first time here.

21 Q. So is it your testimony, I take it, Mrs. Cenic, that there were

22 other documents that simply weren't available to you in that period?

23 A. It is possible. I am not aware of any such documents. I didn't

24 see them.

25 Q. If we could turn, Mrs. Cenic, next to a topic -- I'm sorry, tab

Page 22285

1 54.

2 A. [In English] 50 ...

3 Q. 54. It's at the end of that package. And this is a document that

4 has been previously exhibited as P529, tab 112. And this is a document

5 the Court is familiar with. This is a decision that was issued on the

6 10th of June by the president of the Presidency, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, and

7 it is a Decision on the Establishment of War Commissioners in the

8 Municipalities in Time of Imminent Threat of War or During a State of

9 War.

10 Mrs. Cenic, this is a document that essentially established war

11 commissioners to -- it identified them and ultimately they were

12 identified, I should say, and think came to the municipalities.

13 If you turn to sub-part 3 -- or article 3, you'll see precisely

14 what statutorily they were tasked to do. Article 3 reads a be I'll read

15 just the pertinent parts: "The war commissioners shall maintain the

16 closest possible cooperation with legal authorities. They shall convey

17 directives issued by the War Presidency of the republic." I won't read

18 the rest.

19 So one of the principal functions of the war commissioners was to

20 convey directives. Do you have -- were you aware of that in your

21 conversations? You said you had many conversations with -- with

22 Dr. Koljevic about war commissioners. Were you aware that one of their

23 statutorily mandated functions was to convey directives issued by the War

24 Presidency of the republic?

25 A. [Interpretation] Mr. Koljevic did visit Vogosca on one occasion.

Page 22286

1 He spent half a day there, perhaps a bit longer. He also visited the Park

2 Hotel. Professor Koljevic's purpose in being there had to do with

3 commissions.

4 I see this document for the first time, dated the 10th of June,

5 but I can tell you that I met up with Professor Koljevic and spent some

6 time with him. That's to say on the occasion of his visit to Vogosca.

7 Q. My question was: Were you aware, Mrs. Cenic, that one of the

8 functions of the war commissioners was to convey directives issued by the

9 War Presidency of the republic?

10 A. I wasn't familiar with Article 3, not in its written form. When I

11 arrived at Pale and started working with Professor Koljevic, from that

12 point on I knew that commissioners were supposed to report to the

13 Presidency on the situation in their respective municipalities that they

14 were in charge of.

15 Q. Now, you mentioned a visit by Dr. Koljevic to Vogosca. Are you

16 aware that other high-level people in the Republika Srpska authorities

17 also visited Vogosca in the period that you were there?

18 A. While I was there, the only person, and I'm talking about the top

19 echelons, was Professor Koljevic. I don't remember anybody else coming.

20 Q. Let me direct your attention --

21 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one question?

22 MR. HARMON: Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You said, not in your last answer but in the previous

24 one, you said, "I knew," after you started working at Pale, "that

25 commissioners were supposed to report to the Presidency on the position in

Page 22287

1 their respective municipalities." Was this to suggest that they were

2 supposed to but didn't do it, or was there anything of that kind in your

3 answer, or would you say they were supposed to do it and they did it? I

4 mean, my children are opposed to be obedient to their parents. They not

5 always are. You understand what I'm asking?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already described the way the

7 four commissioners that we discussed, the way they reported, and in what

8 form their reports were. I never saw a written report. And as I've

9 already told you, I believe that only Dr. Djokanovic submitted something

10 in writing to Professor Koljevic. I did not see any other written

11 reports. Everything was in verbal form, at least when -- when Professor

12 Koljevic's relationship with the Commissioner is concerned. I didn't see

13 any instructions, any document to that effect, I don't know whether

14 anybody listened to those reports or not. I wouldn't dare comment on

15 that.

16 JUDGE ORIE: But do you know the reason why this was just a report

17 in -- which is not very common in government administration?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know why reports were

19 not submitted in writing. I can only share with you my opinion about

20 Professor Koljevic. That was his style, and the two of us quite often

21 discussed this matter, and I was of the opinion that there should be

22 something in writing to accompany everything that was going on.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Did he give any specific response if you said that --

24 did you ever express that opinion, is my first question.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 22288

1 JUDGE ORIE: And what was his response then?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in some segments of our work,

3 he listened to me. I can't say he listened to me because he was my

4 superior. He took my advice is probably a better way to put it. But

5 after a while, he would still resort to his own informal ways, and

6 throughout our work for the three years that was always a problem.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could the confidentiality or the sensitivity of the

8 reporting have played any role or was that ever a part of your

9 discussions?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was not confidentiality that

11 was at stake. If you would allow me to say this. He was just nonchalant

12 in his attitude towards administration and administrative matters.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for those answers.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


16 Q. As I said, Mrs. Cenic, if you'd turn to tab 34, please. This is

17 an exhibit. It is P65, tab 140.

18 Mrs. Cenic, I'm going to first of all identify the document. This

19 is the minutes from a government meeting of the Serb Republic of Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina that was held on the 29th of May, 1992, and I would like

21 to direct your attention to page 3 of the English, starting six lines down

22 from the top. You mentioned Mr. Koljevic -- Dr. Koljevic going to

23 Vogosca. Let me read this portion of the document from the government

24 minutes: "It has been concluded that in two days the municipalities of

25 Sarajevo region should be visited. Milan Trbojevic and Velibor Ostojic

Page 22289

1 are responsible for the visits to the municipalities of Vogosca and

2 Ilijas."

3 Now, does this document, accounting for the future visit of

4 Mr. Trbojevic and Mr. Ostojic refresh your recollection at all as to

5 whether persons other than Dr. Koljevic visited the Vogosca municipality

6 while you were there?

7 A. I don't remember Milan Trbojevic or Velibor Ostojic's visit. I

8 know both persons very well, and I never saw them in Vogosca. I didn't

9 meet up with them.

10 Q. Is it possible that they could have paid a visit on the

11 municipality while you were visiting, for example, your parents in Ilidza

12 or you were out of the Hotel Park?

13 A. I don't know. I never even heard of their visit.

14 Q. Now, if we could go back to tab 54 for just a minute.

15 A. [In English] 54.

16 Q. 54, yes, please. Your evidence yesterday was that -- you were

17 asked a question by my colleague Mr. Stewart whether you had ever heard

18 the term "expanded Presidency." If you look at Article 3, there's a

19 reference to the War Presidency. Do you see that? Do you see that,

20 Mrs. Cenic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you hear of the Presidency referred to as a War Presidency?

23 A. [Interpretation] War Presidency or Presidency, I know the body and

24 I know its members.

25 Q. So you heard of it referred to both as the Presidency and the War

Page 22290

1 Presidency.

2 A. We always referred to it as Presidency. This is what it went

3 by.

4 Q. Okay. Now, I want to just focus your attention again on another

5 part of your evidence yesterday. You said yesterday in respect of war

6 commissioners, you spent some time on your evidence, and you said that you

7 had attended all of the meetings between the four men who were identified

8 as war commissioners and Dr. Koljevic. That is found at LiveNote 16 --

9 page 16, line 18, on day 30.

10 During what period of time are you talking about when you say you

11 attended all of the meetings of those commissioners and Dr. Koljevic?

12 A. From the moment when Professor Koljevic and I started working

13 together, they would come, as I have described. Dragan Djokanovic was

14 almost always on his own, and the other three would sometimes come on

15 their own, sometimes as a group. Sometimes Radovanovic and Poplasen

16 together, sometimes Radovanovic and Jovanovic together. I've described

17 all that, and towards the end of that year --

18 Q. Mrs. Cenic, my question was, if you can recall, what period are

19 you talking about? Your answer said "from the moment Professor Koljevic

20 and I started working together." Can you put a date on that?

21 A. I believe Professor Koljevic and I started working to the sometime

22 in October. Towards the end of October, I believe. Again, it's very

23 difficult for me to pinpoint any dates. And these meetings continued

24 until the end of that year and no longer. And why I'm saying that,

25 Professor Koljevic and I shared this small office, and then we moved to a

Page 22291

1 bigger space where he has his own office and I had my office. That's why

2 I remember that those meetings were discontinued after the end of the

3 year.

4 Q. Now, I'd like you to think very carefully, Mrs. Cenic. Are you --

5 do you recall those meetings to be official meetings of Professor Koljevic

6 and Mr. Poplasen, Dr. Djokanovic, and the others, the other four men, or

7 were those meetings that were, as a result of past contacts with those

8 men, more of a social type of a meeting?

9 A. I've already said that the first part of those meetings, which was

10 rather short, was rather official, and it dealt with the situation in the

11 respective municipalities. And quite a longer bit of those meetings was

12 informal. Those meetings started on a rather formal note but ended in a

13 very informal way.

14 Q. I understand that, and I understood that when you gave your

15 evidence yesterday, Mrs. Cenic, but my question is: What did you

16 understand Professor Koljevic's role to be in respect of the people who

17 were identified as war commissioners?

18 A. Professor Koljevic was vice-president or, rather, firstly he was a

19 member of the Presidency and that was his task, his duty as a member of

20 the Presidency. He was in charge of talking to the commissioners and

21 working with them.

22 Q. Your conclusion is based on what when you say that?

23 A. I base my conclusion on Professor Koljevic's words.

24 Q. Now, this Chamber has received evidence from the 15th session of

25 the Presidency that the tasks allocated -- task of questions dealing with

Page 22292

1 the war commissioners was allocated to Mr. Krajisnik.

2 A. I hear it from you now. I know that Professor Koljevic informed

3 me, because we constantly talked, and he informed me that one of his tasks

4 was to cooperate and coordinate the work of the commissioners.

5 Q. Let me show you -- first of all, in respect of that issue of the

6 war commissioners, Mrs. Cenic, yesterday you testified that Mr. Poplasen

7 was a war commissioner for Ilijas. Let me show you an exhibit. It's

8 extra 2. It's been identified as extra 2.

9 MR. HARMON: If that is could be shown to Mrs. Cenic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar -- has it number already, Mr. Harmon?

11 MR. HARMON: It does, Your Honour. It's P65, tab 204. And if

12 Mrs. Cenic could also be shown extra 3, which bears the number P65,

13 Treanor tab 205.

14 If you could start with extra 2, please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That might not be immediately clear what is extra

16 2.

17 MR. HARMON: The document that starts -- sorry. The 16 June

18 document that deals with Mr. Jovanovic.

19 And let me just for the record, Mrs. Cenic, identify this document

20 for the record. This is a document from the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

21 and Herzegovina Presidency dated the 16th of June, 1992. It's a

22 certificate issued by the Presidency, and it appoints -- Professor Dragan

23 Jovanovic is appointed as a state commissioner for the municipality of

24 Ilijas in place of the current commissioner, Jovan Tintor who has been

25 transferred to a new position, and it's signed for the president of the

Page 22293

1 Presidency. If you look at the original B/C/S version, do you recognise

2 that signature?

3 A. No. This copy is not very legible.

4 Q. All right. Let me ask you --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Can't you read the text, or can't you read or

6 recognise the signature only? Ms. Cenic, I asked whether it was -- you

7 said it's not very legible. Is it because of the -- you can't read the

8 signature or that you can't read the typed -- typewritten text?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't realise that

10 you were addressing me. I can read the text, the typed-out text, but the

11 signature here is not very legible, and it doesn't speak to me at all.


13 Q. Now, you worked in Mr. Krajisnik's office for -- you testified for

14 a period of time. This signature, Mrs. Cenic, has been identified in this

15 court and conceded by the Defence to be Mr. Krajisnik's signature.

16 A. On this first document that speaks about Dragan Jovanovic, I can

17 see just two lines. And as for the second document which mentions Jovo

18 Mijatovic, there is a signature which does look like Mr. Krajisnik's

19 signature. The first signature doesn't look to me like Mr. Krajisnik's

20 signature.

21 Q. Okay. Now, at the meetings with Professor Koljevic and the four

22 individuals you've identified as commissioners, were there any minutes

23 taken of those meetings?

24 A. No.

25 Q. These were informal conversations, I take it?

Page 22294

1 A. No. Not even when they had discussions on the situation in the

2 municipalities. Professor Koljevic wouldn't ask for any minutes to be

3 taken or anything to that effect.

4 Q. Okay. Now, if I could direct your attention to the document

5 that's dated the 21st of August, 1992. This is a similar document to the

6 previous document that we've seen. It's again the Presidency issuing a

7 certificate, Jovo Mijatovic being appointed as essentially a commissioner

8 for the municipality of Ilidza. Did Mr. Mijatovic ever come and see

9 Dr. Koljevic, Professor Koljevic?

10 A. Mr. Mijatovic did come to see Professor Koljevic. I don't

11 remember him coming in his capacity as a commissioner.

12 Q. Do you remember conversations with Jovo Mijatovic where he was

13 discussing what was happening in the municipality of Ilidza?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, I just want to explore a little bit more your testimony in

16 respect of these commissioners and what you've asserted in this court. If

17 we could turn -- first of all, you've said as far as you know there was

18 nothing in writing that was reported other than perhaps Dr. Djokanovic

19 would occasionally prepare written reports to Dr. Koljevic. Did you ever

20 see any written reports written by Dr. Djokanovic?

21 A. Mr. Djokanovic who considered himself Professor Koljevic's friend

22 would give information to Dr. Koljevic personally. Those envelopes

23 contained several sheets of paper that Professor Koljevic kept. Those

24 documents were in the form of a private letter.

25 On one occasion I did have an opportunity to see a document of

Page 22295

1 that sort because Professor Koljevic showed them to me, and those

2 documents contained various personal observations and some of which were

3 very personal matters concerning Dr. Djokanovic. Dr. Djokanovic never

4 submitted anything through any official channels, either through me or

5 through somebody else.

6 What I'm saying is, those documents were never officially

7 recorded. They were always delivered personally to Professor Koljevic.

8 Most the meetings between Professor Koljevic and Dr. Djokanovic were held

9 in my absence. If I attended them, it was -- it would be only for a short

10 period of time, and most of the time the two of them spent discussing

11 private and personal matters.

12 Q. Now, let me show you a document. If you'd turn to tab 14, please,

13 Mrs. Cenic.

14 This is Prosecution Exhibit 743.D.

15 Tab 14, Mrs. Cenic, is a document which in the lower left-hand

16 corner is dated June 24, 1992. At the top left-hand corner it's from the

17 Serbian -- Serb municipality of Vogosca, Dr. Nikola Poplasen, republic

18 commissioner, and it's addressed to the Serb republic of BH wartime

19 Presidency. So this document, if you cast an eye on it, Mrs. Then S a

20 written report dealing with the overall situation in the Serb municipality

21 of Vogosca at the moment when Dr. Poplasen was preparing this report.

22 Now, this is one example, Mrs. Cenic, of a written report prepared

23 by wartime commissioners, in this case Dr. Poplasen. And it also touches

24 upon another part of your evidence. And I under stand you only started to

25 work for Dr. Koljevic in October, and in October there were no discussions

Page 22296

1 about prisons. But if you'd turn to sub-part 3 in this document; it

2 says: "Since the prison in Vogosca is illegal in view of our legal

3 regulations, the prison has to be transformed into a subdivision of the

4 correctional facilities in Butnim or" --

5 A. Butmir.

6 Q. Mine says "-nim," so thank you for the correction.

7 So, Mrs. Cenic, there were -- strike that. You did know

8 Dr. Poplasen?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you saw him when he came to the municipality or --

11 A. No.

12 Q. You never saw him in the Vogosca municipality?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I understood your evidence to be yes, but in the last two days

15 that he would come on occasion and then he would leave.

16 A. Yes, but to Professor Koljevic's office, but not to Vogosca.

17 Please refer to my testimony. I have said very clearly that Mr.

18 Poplasen -- first of all, I never saw Mr. Poplasen in Vogosca. Second of

19 all, I found Mr. Poplasen in the Kikinda building where he slept. Third

20 of all, I said that Mr. Poplasen, like the rest of them, had come there,

21 spent some time there and saw Professor Koljevic and then he would go

22 back. This is the way he did things.

23 The date that is mentioned here, I did not see him in that month,

24 nor do I remember a chance meeting in -- with him in Vogosca, not me, no.

25 Q. Okay. Well, there is -- Dr. Poplasen has testified in this

Page 22297

1 Chamber, and he has given his evidence that he was in the Vogosca

2 municipality. He gave evidence about this particular document and about

3 the particular facility that he was referring to. So it's again entirely

4 possible that he was there and you just didn't see him. Isn't that right,

5 Mrs. Cenic?

6 A. That is quite possible. I didn't see him there.

7 Q. All right.

8 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions, Your Honour. Thank

9 you.

10 Thank you very much, Ms. Cenic.

11 THE WITNESS: [In English] Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.

13 Mr. Stewart, any need to re-examine the witness?

14 MR. STEWART: No, I have no re-examination, Your Honour.

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE ORIE: I have two questions for you. Yes. You testified

17 about the Presidency and that there were, apart from Presidency meetings,

18 there were broader meetings which you called brain-storming meetings

19 called by Mr. Karadzic. "Brain-storming" suggests that it's just an

20 exchange of views. Is that what you meant by "brain-storming," exchanging

21 views without deciding on matters?

22 A. Yes. Mr. Karadzic would often call meetings. He would invite

23 people to ponder, to brain-storm. This was his term, and we took it over

24 from him. And he arrived at the most unexpected times, without any

25 previous announcement.

Page 22298

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This Chamber has received quite some evidence

2 on meetings where were present Mr. Karadzic, Ms. Plavsic,

3 Professor Koljevic, Mr. Djeric, and Mr. Krajisnik. Minutes of those

4 meetings referring to Presidency, well, there are different descriptions

5 of what the meeting actually was about. In which -- at least it's not

6 represented as an exchange of views but also where decisions are reported

7 to have been taken. I'm trying to find out -- you're talking about

8 Presidency meetings. You're talking about brain-storming meetings. First

9 of all, are you aware of such meetings on a more or less regular basis

10 where the five persons I just mentioned were present, sometimes even one

11 more person or -- how should I understand those meetings? Is that -- in

12 your view, are those Presidency meetings, or are they brain-storming

13 meetings?

14 I can tell you, my problem with calling those Presidency meetings

15 would be that it was not just Mr. Karadzic, Mrs. Plavsic, and Professor

16 Koljevic, but regularly Mr. Djeric and Mr. Krajisnik as well. So to that

17 extent, it would not fit into what I understood to be your definition of

18 the Presidency, whereas the decision-taking element in those meetings is

19 not consistent with brain-storming. Could you help me out?

20 A. For all of us employees, Presidency meant one thing and that was

21 Mr. Karadzic, Mrs. Plavsic, and Professor Koljevic. This was Presidency

22 in our view. Everything else was treated as extended collegiums, to use a

23 business term. People would be invited to such meetings without the right

24 to vote.

25 This is a common practice everywhere. For us, the president of

Page 22299

1 the republic was Dr. Karadzic. The vice-presidents were Mrs. Plavsic and

2 Professor Koljevic. And the president of the National Assembly was

3 Mr. Krajisnik. The prime ministers took turns.

4 All these meetings that I referred to by Dr. Karadzic's term were

5 nothing out the ordinary for us. This was just his way. And in our view

6 those were just meetings. What was discussed there I don't know because I

7 never attended those meetings.

8 In any case, this was nothing out of the ordinary, nothing

9 strange. I even believe that Dr. Karadzic often invited some other people

10 from different sides. When I say from different sides, I mean people from

11 various structures who normally would not belong to such meetings.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We have received in evidence minutes of those

13 meetings, and as I said, sometimes others were present as well, but the

14 names that appear again and again, sometimes under a heading of Presidency

15 in -- I hope I'm quite correct in -- under an imminent threat of war. We

16 see those two names, Djeric and Krajisnik, appear regularly. So not --

17 and not described as visitors or -- and usually the meeting is limited to

18 those five persons. So that does not -- your description does not fit

19 entirely into that evidence we received. So I'm asking whether ...

20 A. Your Honour, I don't know how to answer your question, what else

21 to say on top of what I've already told you. The evidence that you are

22 commencing is something that I have not seen. I don't have them -- have

23 it. I repeat, in our view the Presidency, the government, the Assembly

24 were bodies that all played their respective roles when they became

25 operational.

Page 22300

1 In my view, President Krajisnik [as interpreted] was president of

2 the assembly, and he remained the president of the municipality until the

3 end of the war and later on. Dr. Karadzic was president of the republic,

4 and I never saw them in any other light, nor do I know of anything else.

5 I also know that everybody liked to talk to Mr. Krajisnik because

6 he was a more stable person than the rest of them. He was even more

7 stable than Professor Koljevic that I worked for.

8 As for those meetings, those of us who worked there treated them

9 the way I described to you.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I think there must be a slip at line

11 14, either by the witness or interpretation, I don't know which, but --

12 JUDGE ORIE: I take it it's Mr. Krajisnik was president of the

13 Assembly. And, yes, 14 I have -- on 15 then also and he remain the

14 president of the municipality. That --

15 MR. STEWART: I've got that on line 14. That's the point,

16 Your Honour, actually.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's clear, and it's undisputed. Let

18 me just -- I'm just checking one thing for a second, if you would allow me

19 time, Ms. Cenic.

20 Yes. I have no further questions on this issue.

21 Then my next question is about the movement of populations. You

22 told us what you discussed about these things and that there was never a

23 plan to remove people, although people finally left the area, just as you

24 did, and, as you said, quite a number of people from other ethnicities did

25 as well.

Page 22301

1 Now, we have heard some evidence on domination, Serb domination in

2 municipalities where the Muslims were in a majority. We have heard some

3 evidence on what goals were mentioned in this period of time, strategic

4 goals.

5 Could you tell me, if you discussed this situation, were you aware

6 that sometimes the Republika Srpska seemed to seek to dominate or at least

7 to be in power in municipalities where there was a non-Serb majority?

8 A. Your Honour, I don't know which municipalities you're referring

9 to. In my own view, all the municipalities were disrupted during these

10 conflicts. Nothing was the same.

11 To answer your question specifically, I really don't know of the

12 existence of any plan, nor did I see one anywhere whereby someone was

13 supposed to dominate over someone else in a given part of the country, if

14 there was such thing as domination in Bosnia. After so many years, I can

15 only regret that somebody has deprived me of my life and regret the fact

16 that Cutileiro's plan was rejected, the plan which would have enabled me

17 to live in peace.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it true that some territories were claimed by

19 the Republika Srpska where prior to the outbreak of war there was a Serb

20 minority?

21 A. Can you tell me which municipalities you have in mind? I really

22 can't think of the municipalities you might be referring to. I can't even

23 remember the ethnic make-up of individual municipalities. I can speak of

24 the ethnic make-up of the population in Sarajevo, where I grew up, and I

25 knew the place well.

Page 22302

1 The municipality of Tesanj where I worked, was 92 per cent Muslim,

2 today Bosniak. I knew that because I worked there.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I haven't learned a -- so if you would give me just

4 one minute.

5 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just take perhaps as an example Vogosca. Was

7 that claimed by the Republika Srpska or not? I'm not quite sure about

8 that, or whether it was just a matter of dividing that municipality. I

9 mean, you said the municipality, no one was there so the Serbs took over,

10 isn't it?

11 A. Yes, as far as the municipality's concerned, I'm referring to the

12 municipal building, the municipal administration building. That's what

13 I'm referring to.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I think I asked you whether there was any -- any

15 administration of the municipality, whether the non-Serbs were involved in

16 any way in the further administration of Vogosca, and I think your answer

17 was no.

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Now -- now, we have a municipality, and there are

20 examples of other municipalities as well where Serbs claimed to be rulers

21 of that municipality although they are in a minority. How would you

22 expect other parties to respond to such a situation?

23 A. Your Honour, Sarajevo was Serb, too, but is no longer. It was

24 Croat, too, but is no longer. We could thus take it municipality by

25 municipality. Every municipality was Bosniak or Muslim, Serb and Croat,

Page 22303

1 each and every one of them, including Tesanj I spoke of, where 92 per cent

2 of the population was Bosniak. At the time I worked there, still there

3 were Croats and Serbs as well.

4 What is absolute and what is relative majority? Who owned more

5 land, who owned more real estate, that's something statistics deals with.

6 That's something that numerous negotiations can testify to. Starting from

7 the Cutileiro's plan, which again I repeat I regret the fact that it was

8 rejected. We would have avoided many things including my visit to this

9 Tribunal.

10 This is the only answer I can give you. There can be no justice

11 in war. We can talk of justice only in peacetime.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking about justice at this moment. I'm

13 not talking about municipalities that -- where no Croats or Bosniaks or

14 Muslims would have lived. I'm talking about municipalities. And I'm not

15 talking about what would have been the preferred solution, because I think

16 that no one would disagree if I would say that a resolution without war

17 was to be preferred under all circumstances. I'm just trying find out --

18 but let me try to find an example of such a municipality. Perhaps Mr. --

19 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I have a copy of an exhibit which is

20 the -- is the census. Statistics, there are a considerable number of

21 them. Bosanska Krupa, for example, is one.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's, for example, take Zvornik. Zvornik was

23 a municipality with an absolute majority of Muslim population.

24 Nevertheless, from what I understand, Zvornik was claimed to become part

25 of Republika Srpska, independent from what Muslims -- whether they would

Page 22304

1 agree with that, being an absolute majority of the population. What would

2 you expect in such a situation the -- to happen? Was that ever discussed

3 among yourselves in terms of movement of population?

4 A. Yes. We often discussed the movement of population precisely in

5 the sense that no one was left in the place they were supposed to be. We

6 talked about whether there was natural or not. We talked about different

7 parts of the country, the Neretva valley, the Drina valley, the Una

8 valley, the Sana valley. There were quite a few discussions on that

9 topic. We talked about how things should be settled in a way that would

10 be satisfactory for all and whether this was possible at all.

11 Of course, I don't think it fair that I had to leave, but I also

12 don't think it fair that Muslims and Croats had to leave. But to provide

13 you with an explanation as to how this came about, I cannot. I don't

14 know.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that. But -- I do understand that

16 you say it was not fair that I had to leave. It was not fair that Muslims

17 and Croats had to leave. Did you consider -- let's focus just by way of

18 example to Zvornik where these Muslims were in majority and where the

19 Serbs claimed Zvornik to become a part of Republika Srpska. Would you --

20 if you say "it's unfair that I had to leave," was it considered that the

21 Muslims would have to leave, being the majority, or would you expect that

22 the majority would expect that the Serb minority in that municipality

23 would just -- the Serb minority would just decide that this municipality

24 would be a part of Republika Srpska. Or did you expect, then, the Muslims

25 to leave and say, "Well, you go to the area where -- where you want to

Page 22305

1 live if you don't agree with being in the Republika Srpska," or in the

2 Republic of Serbia in the early stages?

3 A. I think everyone wanted to be affiliated with their own peoples,

4 to be close to their own peoples to feel better. That's the only answer I

5 can give you. I don't think that Bosnians or Muslims had to accept this

6 or that. They were free to choose what they wanted, just as Serbs were.

7 But of course it was important for everyone to feel safe. And perhaps for

8 that very reason we went too far, and again everyone felt insecure. But,

9 as I said, everyone wanted to be close to their peoples. How far Zvornik

10 is from where the Muslim population is concentrated, how far is Konjic

11 where there were Serbs from the places where Serb population was

12 concentrated. There were migrations, although I have to say I did not see

13 any sort of plan or anything systematic in it. Otherwise, the people

14 would have resorted to what even the representatives of the international

15 community referred to during negotiations as the humane relocation.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You said that, "I don't think that the Bosnians or

17 Muslims had to accept this or that. They were free to choose what they

18 wanted, just as Serbs." Now, I didn't get the impression provisionally

19 from the evidence we heard that the Muslims in Zvornik had chosen to

20 become part of Republika Srpska. Now, if they wanted not to become a part

21 of Republika Srpska, if at the same time the Serbs claimed Zvornik to be

22 or to become part of Republika Srpska, how could those two be reconciled?

23 As you said, they're free to choose. They were in a majority. I never

24 got the impression that they'd chosen that this would be part of Republika

25 Srpska?

Page 22306

1 A. I cannot speak on their behalf. I can only speak for myself and

2 on behalf of those closest to me that we were hoping for negotiations and

3 a peaceful solution that will let us know what will happen with us. Of

4 course I cannot speak on behalf of Muslims or on behalf of those in

5 Zvornik and say whether they ought to have accepted different solutions or

6 not, because I had never heard of any resettlement plan for Zvornik. I

7 don't -- I don't think that there was one such plan for any part of the

8 country.

9 I don't know what you expect me to say by way of an answer. I

10 thought all of that was provisional until a final solution was found when

11 I would know where to go. There were ongoing negotiations. What was

12 Republika Srpska back then is not what Republika Srpska is today if you

13 look back at 1992, 1993, 1994.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Not completely the same, but in some respects it is.

15 I'm just wondering whether, and I again take the example of Zvornik, that

16 you expected more or less that people would, I mean, the majority of

17 Muslims would seek place closer to where you said the Muslim population

18 was concentrated. Whether you'd expect them to leave or whether you would

19 expect them -- I mean, what did you have in mind? I'm not asking you what

20 they would decide but how you considered the situation with the majority

21 Muslim population. Nevertheless, municipality claimed by or becoming a

22 part of Republika Srpska not with the explicit consent of the majority of

23 the population.

24 A. The only answer I can give you is again the same. I don't think

25 they left because there were beds of roses but because they didn't feel

Page 22307

1 secure. They didn't feel safe. Especially this refers to Zvornik which

2 borders with Serbia where in the hinterland there again they had a Serbian

3 population. I did not expect them to accept the Republika Srpska nor did

4 I think that it was fair for the expect the minority to rule over the

5 majority. But there were several cases where the minority ruled over the

6 majority.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And you did not consider military control an element

8 for which they may have left? I mean, military control by the Serbs. And

9 just to give you a few more examples, for example, Vlasenica or Sanski

10 Most, all municipalities in which the Serbs why in a minority, but at a

11 certain moment gained military control over if not all then most of the

12 territory of those municipalities.

13 A. There were probably such days of case cases on the other side too,

14 not just on this side. And, as I said, if I may be allowed to finish,

15 that is why I said that I did not think that they left because things were

16 rosy but because they felt the presence of the army. They had their backs

17 to Serbia and they felt threatened.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I then understand your answer well if you

19 say just as happened in what is now the situation in those parts of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina not being Republika Srpska, similarly the Muslims under

21 the situation which was a situation of military control by the other

22 party, yesterday I think you agreed with me that it would be intimidation

23 as well, that they felt threatened under those circumstances and felt,

24 just as you felt, that you had no choice but to leave, that they would be

25 in a similar situation.

Page 22308

1 A. Similar situations existed on all sides.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was this something, just in general terms, if

3 you gained military control over a certain area, if in circumstances there

4 was intimidation, as you experienced yourself, would you consider it a

5 normal or expectable -- expected cause of events that people would leave?

6 I mean, the threatened population, whether minority or majority, but those

7 who had no military control.

8 A. If the stronger side, as you put it, or the armed side was of the

9 other ethnicity, then members of different ethnicities left. For

10 instance, if those were Serbs, then the Muslims would leave. We had

11 stories from World War II that were fresh in people's memories. For

12 instance, my parents still remembered those stories, and they instilled

13 them with fear, which was quite natural, for that matter. We had not

14 cured or remedied the causes of that earlier war and had already found

15 ourselves with our hands full of this new war.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the matters I just discussed with you

17 because I asked for your opinion on what you would expect, were these

18 matters of -- well, portions, substantial portions of the population

19 moving out, at least the possibility of them moving out, was that ever

20 part of the discussion on population movement, as you told us that you --

21 that population movement was included in your conversations.

22 A. Most of the conversations which had to do with this topic were the

23 ones I had with Professor Koljevic. I have to tell you right away that

24 Professor Koljevic was in favour of negotiations, persistent negotiations

25 in order to find a definite solution that would be satisfactory for the

Page 22309

1 population, to find such a solution that would provide safety for all.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for those answers.

3 Any questions arising from the Bench's questions? Yes,

4 Mr. Harmon.

5 MR. HARMON: Yes. I need to come over here to look at the

6 transcript.

7 Mrs. Cenic, your answer to one of Judge Orie's questions was,

8 which is found at page 64, line 18 to 20, you said, "I also know that

9 everybody liked to talk to Mr. Krajisnik because he was a more stable

10 person than the rest of them. He was even more stable than

11 Professor Koljevic that I worked for."

12 Now, you have told us, Mrs. Cenic, that in respect of the way in

13 which Professor Koljevic worked, he didn't take minutes at meetings, he

14 didn't record meetings, for example, of meetings with the war

15 commissioners that you personally attended. How would you describe

16 Mr. Krajisnik's manner of approaching the same problem, that is the

17 attendance of meetings and the recording of what happened in them?

18 MR. STEWART: How does this arise out of the questions,

19 Your Honour? Both Mr. Koljevic and Mr. Krajisnik are mentioned, but it's

20 a completely different topic.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Harmon, I do agree with Mr. Stewart that

22 how Mr. Koljevic took notes at the meetings does not open the gate for

23 asking to whoever else recorded what was discussed at such meetings.

24 MR. HARMON: Well, her answer invited a question insofar as she

25 said, "He was a more stable person than the rest of them, and he was more

Page 22310

1 stable than Professor Koljevic, who I worked for." And so I'm trying

2 to --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the two are not -- not really related.

4 Taking notes and stability are two different matters.

5 MR. HARMON: Well, if I may, Your Honour, I'd ask leave of the

6 Court to have that question answered.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No. The Chamber decides that you'll not --

9 that the question be answered. Any other question?

10 MR. HARMON: No other questions, thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

12 MR. STEWART: No. Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then this concludes your testimony in this court,

14 Mrs. Cenic.

15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered many questions, a couple of days

17 here, questions both from the Defence, Prosecution, and the Bench. I'd

18 like to thank you very much, and I'm at least happy that we could conclude

19 today, because I understood that it would have caused you considerable

20 problems if we would not have been able to do so. So I'd like to thank

21 you very much, and then I wish you safe trip home again so that you can

22 continue your work on Monday, as you wished.

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. The difficulty lies in the

24 fact that students can't wait, and I don't have a substitute to stand in

25 for me, and that's why I thank you for finishing today. Thank you.

Page 22311

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.

2 We will adjourn until next Monday at quarter past two in this same

3 courtroom.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.47 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day

6 of April, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.