Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22481

1 Wednesday, 5 April 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, after I've asked Mr. Registrar to call

7 the case, I'll give you an opportunity to immediately continue your

8 cross-examination.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

10 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

12 Mr. Kecmanovic, again I'd like to remind you that you're still

13 bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

14 testimony.

15 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

20 Q. And good morning, Professor Kecmanovic. Yesterday there was some

21 discussion about your conversations with the members of the Bosnian Serb

22 leadership about, among other things, Sarajevo, and an exchange with the

23 Court and with Mr. Stewart about permissible versus impermissible acts,

24 what you understood by that and what you were aware of. And during the

25 course of that, you explained at page 35 of the LiveNote transcript, for

Page 22482

1 the benefit of counsel and the Court, that Muslim artillery had fired into

2 Serb areas, and vice versa, and in both cases the artillery fire was

3 opened on densely populated areas.

4 Now, Professor Kecmanovic, that is not a complete or accurate

5 summary of what happened in Sarajevo or what you knew about it, is it?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. The fact is that Serbian forces had superior artillery and laid

8 waste to the central and old parts of the city.

9 A. When I said that what I said earlier on wasn't the complete

10 summary, I said -- I meant something else, something that I omitted to

11 say, and that is that the Muslim forces opened fire also targeting their

12 own side, on their own side. And General MacKenzie was the first

13 international official to warn us of that -- warn people of that. Those

14 of us who lived in town and were well-informed, such as myself, we had

15 certain information coming in to us about that.

16 Q. That's absolutely false, and you know it, sir. General MacKenzie

17 has been at great pains, both in his book and in his interviews, to make

18 clear that he was not in a position to assert that Bosnian Muslim forces

19 were responsible for such atrocities. You know that.

20 A. I don't have the document here, but I was in Sarajevo -- I was

21 still in Sarajevo when General MacKenzie gave a statement to that effect,

22 and that was something that was published by the Sarajevo media. I did

23 not read McKenzie's book, I don't know what it says in the book, but I do

24 know that there was a statement like that. Unfortunately, I don't have

25 the papers here to prove that here and now.

Page 22483

1 Q. Well, sir, it's not very difficult to go on the internet or to

2 check General McKenzie's book and see that he says "absolutely not" in

3 respect to allegations that he knows that Bosnian Muslim forces were

4 responsible for such things as the bread line massacre, and you must know

5 that.

6 A. What I've just said I continue to maintain; that a statement to

7 that effect does exist and an indirect additional proof of that is this:

8 Is that there were very heated reactions of the official forums on the

9 Muslim side after that statement of his, and the consequence of that was

10 that General MacKenzie has remained until the present day someone who is

11 not liked in Muslim Sarajevo, precisely because of that statement.

12 Q. Well --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may I just intervene for one second. It

14 seems that in questions and answers, some matters are confused.

15 I think yesterday Mr. Kecmanovic told us that densely populated

16 areas were victimised by artillery fire and that that happened at both

17 sides. I did not have the impression yesterday, neither from questions

18 nor from answers, that this was a report by this witness of the balance of

19 whether there was a superiority in terms of available artillery to one or

20 the other party but just what people in town experienced. So therefore,

21 these seem to be two items. I mean, even with small artillery capacity,

22 you could target civilians, just as you could with a lot of artillery, you

23 could refrain from targeting civilians, or at least hitting civilians. I

24 should not speak about targeting.

25 So these are two different matters. Then, it now -- a third

Page 22484

1 matter comes in, and that is whether with a lot or just little artillery,

2 whether there is reason to believe that the Muslims or the Serbs, whether

3 they would hit or target those who are in their own controlled territory.

4 These are three distinct items, and I invite you to clearly separate them

5 in the questioning because otherwise it leads to a lot of confusion.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour, but I think that --

8 Q. Mr. --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may be allowed to --

10 Q. Professor, please, one moment.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your permission, Your Honours,

12 or Mr. President, may I be allowed to say something with respect to your

13 interpretation of what I said yesterday. I didn't mention that either the

14 Muslim forces or the Serb forces targeted civilian targets. All I said

15 was that, as we're talking about densely populated areas, that there was

16 -- what can I use as a term? I'm going to use a term that was used later

17 on, after the NATO bombing of Serbia, what is called collateral damage.

18 So the objective and target was military, but --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kecmanovic, I think that exactly for that reason

20 I withdrew the word "targeting" just a couple of lines ago and I said

21 hitting, which means it could be collateral. I do not express myself on

22 whether it was target or not --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not precise --

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- but at least I left that open by correcting

25 myself.

Page 22485

1 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


3 Q. Well, Professor, during the course of answering questions this

4 morning, I think you have begun to provide some additional insight into

5 the information you want to provide the Court about what happened to

6 Sarajevo. So is it essentially your position, then, that is, you want the

7 Court to understand that there was essentially equal exchange of fire by

8 Serbian and Muslim forces on portions of the city held by the opposite

9 side?

10 A. I'll tell you one thing which I omitted to mention. You're asking

11 me directly now. Now, I gave this addition in response to your question.

12 You asked whether all that was the way it was, and then I made this

13 additional explanation, not on my own initiative. I remember full well

14 the beginning of the war --

15 Q. Professor, excuse me for a second. I'm -- if you're in the

16 process of answering the question by referring back to the beginning of

17 the war, I'm sure the Court will want to hear it. Otherwise, I want you

18 first to answer my question with a yes or no. If it requires additional

19 explanation, then you can proceed to do so. But to deflect my question by

20 moving on to a related subject that you're more interested in talking

21 about is not what I'm seeking.

22 My question was: Is it essentially your position, that is, do you

23 want the Court to understand that there was essentially equal exchange of

24 fire by Serbian and Muslim forces on portions of the city held by the

25 opposite side? Yes or no, and then you can explain if necessary.

Page 22486

1 A. I cannot give you a yes or no answer, and that is why I wanted to

2 explain what it was about in a few words. The civilians, as I was myself,

3 you know, at the time when there was fire, when we heard detonations,

4 explosions, we would withdraw to the houses and we just heard the

5 explosions. We didn't have an opportunity of seeing where, what was

6 falling and where it was coming from. So the great problem with the

7 civilians, with the population, was that we couldn't differentiate between

8 what we called and what the soldiers called the ascending and descending

9 detonations. For a layman, an explosion, a detonation sounds the same,

10 whatever the type --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kecmanovic, it seems that you want to tell us

12 that you don't know. And you explained that by saying you as civilians

13 were not in a position to get an accurate impression or accurate --

14 accurate impression on what actually happened in that respect. And I

15 think that's exactly the answer, but perhaps then in the beginning you

16 start explaining your answer, but your answer first of all is: I couldn't

17 tell you. So if you would first start with the core of your answer and

18 then we'll see how much more explanation is needed.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


21 Q. Is it correct or incorrect, Professor Kecmanovic, that Serbs had

22 superior artillery and laid waste to central and old part of the city?

23 A. I'll tell you something in continuation of my previous response,

24 which will be closer to what you want to hear now. The consequences, the

25 results of the shelling on the Serb side, is something that I could see,

Page 22487

1 whereas the results and consequences of the effects of the Muslim forces

2 on Serb targets I was not able to see. So my impression was, of course,

3 that the Serb side was superior because I saw the results of their firing.

4 What the Muslim results were as a result of the Muslim artillery fire is

5 something that I didn't have an opportunity to see. So I think that that

6 perhaps answers your question as you are expecting to hear it.

7 Q. Not precisely, sir. I'd like to know, based on what you saw at

8 the time, based on what you heard at the time, based on your discussions

9 with all officials with whom you came in contact, based on everything you

10 learned afterwards, didn't you come to the conclusion that the Serbian

11 side had superior weaponry, superior artillery, and with that laid waste

12 to the central and old part of the city? And why can't you just tell the

13 Court that?

14 A. Well, that's precisely what I wanted to tell you. I saw the

15 results of it, that is to say the results of that. I didn't see the

16 results of the Muslim forces shooting --

17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you for the following reason:

18 Mr. Tieger, you put two questions in one, and you are asking about

19 the superiority that I understand to be whether they had better and more

20 artillery, and you connected that question immediately that they used that

21 to -- to damage the centre of the town.

22 Now, you, Mr. Kecmanovic, you take the second part of the question

23 and forget about the first part. The first question was: Are you aware,

24 from what you heard, from what you may have seen - perhaps you have not

25 seen it; please then tell us - whether the Serbs were superior in the

Page 22488

1 artillery that was available to them compared to what the Muslims had? So

2 that's the first question.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Quite obviously I erroneously

4 thought that I had precisely answered that question. All I saw was the

5 power of the Serb artillery. The power of the Muslim side I was not able

6 to control because I didn't see the results of it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You limit yourself to your own observation as to how

8 this artillery was used. Well, the question was wider. The question was:

9 From what you heard, from what you learned, did you gain an opinion that

10 the Serbs were by far superior in the artillery available? I'm not even

11 at this moment thinking about use of it; that's the second part. I mean,

12 in terms of how many pieces of artillery available. Did you learn

13 anything about that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as that goes, if that is a

15 concrete question, the number of artillery and the type of artillery and

16 so on and so forth, I didn't even have any insight into that. Although I

17 was a member of the state Presidency, I had no insight into the side I was

18 on, let alone the other side. I had absolutely no insight into the other

19 side. All I could judge by was on the effects of it, so it is difficult

20 for me to compare the two.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Did you -- as Mr. Tieger asked you, did you learn

22 later on anything about it, about the balance?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later on, when I moved to Belgrade,

24 if that's what you mean, that period, once I'd left Sarajevo, then I read

25 very different information. And that whole period until the present day,

Page 22489

1 I am informing myself in a parallel fashion from more sources; Banja Luka,

2 Sarajevo, Belgrade information and so on. And I have to say that it is

3 very difficult to arrive at any precise data and information, and as time

4 passed the information coming in was quite contradictory, depending on the

5 source it came from. As to international sources, perhaps the situation

6 would be clearer there.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Tieger suggests that the Serbs were

8 superior in that respect. If you have any clear publication, since you

9 said you informed yourself on both sides, if you have any reports -

10 serious reports, not electoral speeches - about an artillery superiority

11 by the Muslims at that time of the conflict in Sarajevo, then I take it

12 that Mr. Tieger would like to see it so he can look at it.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger. And let's try to get questions and

14 answers very clear. I'll intervene when necessary. Please proceed.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With respect to your -- may I be

16 allowed to say something?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I would like not to make it a debate but rather

18 give an opportunity now to Mr. Tieger to put his next question to you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I might be allowed just to say,

20 as an illustration of the unclear situation, from the Sarajevo sources,

21 for example --

22 JUDGE ORIE: No. I do understand that if at the end of your

23 testimony there are matters of which you say: I really would like to say

24 this and this and this in addition to what I said already, I will give you

25 an opportunity. But it's not a debate; you're examined as a witness.

Page 22490

1 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


3 Q. Professor Kecmanovic, this is not the first time that you've

4 appeared before the Tribunal, nor the first time that you've provided

5 information to the Tribunal. Correct?

6 A. That is correct, yes.

7 Q. So you provided expert reports in both the Kovacka and the Simic

8 cases, and you testified in the Simic case. Correct?

9 A. That's right -- no. I did not testify. So far I've appeared just

10 as an expert witness on several occasions, but sometimes I just gave

11 written material, handed in written material, and I wasn't called into the

12 courtroom. I think I was called to testify just once, and I had a chance

13 of defending - if I can use that word - my expertise, but this is the

14 first time that I'm actually just a witness.

15 Q. Now, tab --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kecmanovic -- Mr. Tieger, is that what you meant

17 to say in your question? Because you made a clear distinction. You

18 talked about appearance in court only once.

19 MR. TIEGER: That's precisely, Your Honour. Two reports --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kecmanovic, if you would have carefully listened

21 to the question put to you by Mr. Tieger, he said that you provided

22 reports in two cases and that you testified in one of them. So explaining

23 to us that you were in court only once was not necessary because it was

24 already included in Mr. Tieger's question, unless it was badly translated.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps the interpretation wasn't

Page 22491

1 correct, but I said that I testified -- it was said that I testified, it

2 seems. I did not testify; I orally defended or presented my expertise.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll repeat the question in exactly -- there's

4 no need to answer it anymore, but the question literally was: "So you

5 provided expert reports in both the Kovacka and Simic cases and you

6 testified in the Simic case."

7 That was the question, so a simple "yes." But if there's any

8 translation problem, it takes more time to find out.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


11 Q. Both cases --

12 A. My answer is no. My answer is no. I was not a witness; I was an

13 expert. I did not testify. I presented my expertise, my expert findings.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is -- but that's -- a technical

15 linguistical matter, that is called testimony.

16 Mr. Tieger.

17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Both cases were -- involved local, that is municipal, figures, not

19 republic-level figures or republic-level leaders. Correct?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. And in your report in the Simic case, which you can find at tab 3

22 -- excuse me, in the Kvocka case, which you can find at tab 3, you said

23 at page 29 of the English and page 48 of the B/C/S, at the very bottom and

24 page 49 at the top: "The superior Serbian artillery laid waste to the

25 central and old part of the city," meaning the city of Sarajevo. Correct?

Page 22492

1 A. Would you repeat where I can find that portion, please.

2 Q. The bottom of page 48 and the top of page 49.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Professor, is it also correct that Serbian forces randomly

5 showered Sarajevo with shells from the surrounding hills?

6 A. Is that a quotation from the text? Are you quoting again? And if

7 so, would you tell me where you're quoting from. Is that a quote?

8 Q. Do you need to know whether you said it before in order to answer

9 my question?

10 A. I don't need to, but I would find my way better if I knew it

11 because I wrote this a few years ago, you know, so --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kecmanovic, Mr. Tieger first asked you whether a

13 certain description is correct or not. Think about it, tell us whether

14 you consider it correct or not. If this happened before, you say it's not

15 correct, then Mr. Tieger might confront you with text you've written

16 yourself. But we are not here to hear you verify whether you'd still

17 agree with your report at that time, but we'd like to hear your testimony.

18 And here you're not an expert; you're a witness.

19 Please proceed. So tell us, please, whether it is correct that

20 the Serbian forces randomly showered Sarajevo with shells from the

21 surrounding hills.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this: That is

23 precisely why I insisted on the difference between testimony and expert

24 testimony, if that's the English word. I did not speak under oath, under

25 the declaration, when I presented my expert findings. I did so as an

Page 22493

1 expert. Now, in my role as witness, I am very careful of saying anything

2 that I cannot back up and confirm.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, give us -- perhaps Mr. Tieger would then

4 ask you: Do you have any reasons to believe that the -- and then you

5 could tell us what your sources are. I do understand that you make,

6 rightly so, a distinction between your own observation and what you

7 learned from other sources. Perhaps first, I do understand your answer to

8 be that from your own observations you couldn't tell us, referring to your

9 earlier answer; but now then perhaps include other sources for an answer

10 to whether this statement is correct or not.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am speaking under oath here, and

12 I'm very wary of just giving out impressions. So when the Prosecution

13 asked me which side was stronger, I cannot claim that either side was

14 either stronger or weaker. To say that under oath carries a lot of weight

15 and I don't have that level of information and knowledge for me to be able

16 to say decidedly that it was one or the other.

17 JUDGE ORIE: But we are now talking about the next subject. We

18 have verified that. As an expert you took a certain position, whereas you

19 say that I couldn't tell you under oath that it's correct. The next one

20 was whether it was correct that the Serbian forces randomly showered

21 Sarajevo with shells from the surrounding hills. Is that a correct

22 statement? Yes or no.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I can say is this: It was my

24 impression, the impression of a man who at that time lived in Sarajevo,

25 however, not something that I can state under oath as being correct here.

Page 22494


2 Q. Professor Kecmanovic, I have indicated previously, and in the

3 course of the questions you received from both Mr. Stewart and the Court I

4 believe it was made clear, that sometimes you were being asked for a very

5 specific event and your specific recollection of that event, sometimes you

6 were being asked for your impressions, and sometimes you were being asked

7 for what you knew based on what you saw, heard, learned about in

8 conversations, or were otherwise able to glean from your activities and

9 experiences prior to, during, and after the conflict. So I'm asking you

10 what you knew based on -- what Nenad Kecmanovic knew based on his

11 discussions and listening to the media and talking to leaders on both

12 sides and all the rest.

13 A. As an illustration of my problems, the problems I'm facing in

14 answering your questions, for example, the second part of this sentence

15 about the increasing arming of the Muslims, which grew stronger with time,

16 as it says, I knew no facts; what type of arms, the quantity of arms

17 coming into the Muslim side. All I had was the impression that there was

18 some movement along those lines, that they were getting stronger in their

19 arming. I can tell you nothing more than that. It's a bit paradoxical

20 that a man who was at the head of the army, formally speaking, the Supreme

21 Commander, regardless of the fact that it was a collective head of state,

22 but I do not have that information, those facts and figures, something

23 that I could tell you here under oath as being absolutely correct. All I

24 can give you is my impressions.

25 Q. That's precisely what I asked for.

Page 22495

1 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited to give your impressions and then we

2 might ask on what your impressions are based.


4 Q. Professor, it's not complicated. You offered some testimony about

5 what happened in Sarajevo. It's a matter of human experience that your

6 understanding of what happened there is going to be informed by a variety

7 of factors. Because of your testimony previously, I asked you to clarify

8 that understanding. That's what we've been talking about all morning and

9 that's what I'm asking you about now.

10 Now, as I indicated before, I had the impression from your

11 previous testimony that you wanted the Court to understand that there was

12 essentially an equal exchange of fire by both sides, and I'm challenging

13 that and saying that you knew better and that conveying to the Court an

14 accurate picture of what you understand happened in Sarajevo and what in

15 fact happened in Sarajevo includes more than that.

16 A. I'm not challenging your assertions that the Serb artillery was

17 superior compared to the Muslim -- or rather, the artillery of the BH

18 army. If that's how you understood me, then you understood me

19 incorrectly. I'm not challenging that at all. But I myself cannot claim

20 exactly under oath that it was indeed superior because I have no insight

21 into the quantity of weapons, the type of weapons it had at its disposal

22 or either side had at their disposal.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kecmanovic, no one expects you to come up with

24 the statistics. Your own observation of the presence of artillery -- if

25 Mr. Tieger puts to you whether it would be correct that the Serbian

Page 22496

1 artillery was superior, from your last answer, instead of discussing it

2 over 15 minutes, you could just have said: That was my impression, as

3 well I have no reason to contest that. And then we know from this type of

4 answer that you did not inspect every single piece of artillery, that you

5 did not inspect the books on who bought the artillery, whether it was

6 still there, et cetera. Let's proceed on the basis, as Mr. Tieger said,

7 that he asked you whether that impression is right or wrong. And let's

8 not make it a semantic game; let's make it real testimony.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


11 Q. Okay --

12 A. I think that I can give you an answer, precise answer, the kind of

13 answer you wanted to hear, if we're staying at the level of impressions,

14 regardless of the fact that I'm a witness here under oath and not an

15 analyst at this point, and my answer is this, my answer is this: It was

16 my impression - just a minute, pay attention - as I said here, that it was

17 superior, as it says, because, you see, I was on the side that could see

18 only the results of the effects of that artillery, you know. I was in

19 such surroundings --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Again you limit your answer to your own observation

21 whereas the question was broader, was wider.

22 Mr. Tieger, you may put the questions and I'll keep a close eye on

23 it that it does not come a debate but rather a testimony.

24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Isn't it correct and haven't you said previously that Serbian

Page 22497

1 forces randomly showered Sarajevo with shells from the surrounding hills?

2 Back to that question.

3 A. Yes, that was my impression.

4 Q. Now, you talked about out-voting and majority votes during the

5 course of your earlier testimony to this Court and explained that, I

6 think, as the use of numerical superiority by the Muslims and Serbs in the

7 political context. Isn't it correct, Professor, that in your view while

8 the Muslims and Croats did not shrink from using their numerical

9 superiority in a political context, that the Serbian side did not shrink

10 from using its advantage in heavy weapons in wartime conditions?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And with the result that by August it could be said that the

13 Serbian Republic was a territorially defined entity with a population

14 ethnically homogenised by force?

15 A. I apologise, but what is your question?

16 Q. That the -- that by August of 1992 the Serbian Republic was a

17 territorially defined entity with a population ethnically homogenised by

18 force.

19 A. So your question is whether that's correct, or what?

20 Q. That's right.

21 A. That is something that I quite obviously -- and we're quite

22 obviously dealing with the text that I wrote, I seem to feel that you're

23 quoting from something I wrote. First of all, that wasn't on the basis of

24 direct experience because it was a period of time already when --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kecmanovic, I have to be quite clear to you.

Page 22498

1 Whether Mr. Tieger is quoting or not quoting and why you did write

2 something, et cetera, et cetera, first answer his question. His question

3 is whether it was correct that by August of 1992 the Serbian Republic was

4 a territorially defined entity with a population ethnically homogenised by

5 force. That's his question. Now you tell us whether that is a correct

6 statement, yes or no; and don't dwell on whether you ever wrote about it

7 before. First answer questions; do not enter into a debate because it

8 will devaluate your testimony. Please proceed. Please give an answer to

9 that question, please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could confirm that except for that

11 last portion, where it says that that was done by force.


13 Q. All right. Do you want me to show you an interview where you said

14 precisely that? Why don't you turn to tab 14, please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, did you want to exhibit the report, the

16 expert report, by Mr. Kecmanovic? And second question: In its entirety

17 under tab 3, because that would need a number. But perhaps not the whole

18 of the report would be a good idea.

19 MR. TIEGER: No, of course not the whole of the report, Your

20 Honour, just the portion or portions --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Unless the parties would agree that on certain lines

22 you spoke were quotes from that report. If the parties could agree on

23 that, we could even do without the whole of the report.

24 MR. TIEGER: Of course. And when Mr. Josse may be going to take

25 an opportunity to confirm that those are accurate quotes --

Page 22499

1 MR. JOSSE: I am not agreeable to that at all, Your Honour. In

2 fact, I have made a note that I want discuss with Mr. Krajisnik at the

3 next break what --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then we provisionally will assign a number to

5 tab 3, which would then be, Mr. Registrar?

6 THE REGISTRAR: P1149, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The next tab is tab 14, and that will be?


9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

10 Mr. Tieger, I think the witness, as I am, is waiting for a

11 question.

12 MR. TIEGER: I understand, Your Honour. Just one moment, please.

13 And my apologies. I should have referred the witness to tab 16,

14 and the Court to tab 16. And I'm referring to the fourth paragraph --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's -- the number 1150 would be assigned to tab

16 16, also an interview, but now 25th of August rather than the 28th.


18 Q. And there, Professor Kecmanovic, in tab 16, we see an interview

19 with Belgrade Tanjug on April -- August 25th, 1992, which states in part:

20 "The Muslim 'Bosnia,' the Croatian 'Herceg-Bosnia' and the Serbian

21 Republic are territorially defined entities with a population ethnically

22 homogenised by force."

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you guide us to where exactly --

24 MR. TIEGER: It's the fourth paragraph, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: The fourth, yes.

Page 22500


2 Q. Professor, did you say that to Belgrade Tanjug, as indicated in

3 this article, and was that true?

4 A. In paragraph 4, I can confirm that as a whole, as an entity. But

5 that was stated a little differently, differently than I understood you to

6 have read it out.

7 Q. Well, Professor, what I want to know is whether you conveyed to

8 Belgrade Tanjug at that time essentially that in -- focussing on the --

9 A. We're talking about --

10 Q. -- focussing on the Serbian Republic for the moment, that

11 non-Serbs were being forcibly displaced; that is, expelled from their

12 homes by force. Isn't that what you were conveying there?

13 A. Would you be so kind as to repeat what you just said; I didn't

14 understand it.

15 Q. Were you conveying to Belgrade Tanjug in August 1992 that within

16 the territories claimed by the -- and controlled by the Serbian Republic,

17 that non-Serbs were being forcibly expelled?

18 A. No. What I wanted to say is precisely what it says here in those

19 four lines, which is slightly more complex, a slightly more complex

20 formulation.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the witness should explain, Mr. Tieger.

22 Please explain that also.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to read out those

24 four lines? "The Muslim 'Bosnia,' the Croatian 'Herceg-Bosnia' and the

25 Serbian Republic are territorially defined entities with a population

Page 22501

1 ethnically homogenised by force. After several months of the horrors of

2 civil war, filled with hatred and fear, it seems that their sole wish is

3 to be separated, at least temporarily ..."


5 Q. Professor, weren't you referring to essentially a conquest by --

6 again, referring specifically to the Serbian Republic in this case, by

7 Serbian forces?

8 A. I was talking about both the Serbian side, the Bosnian side, and

9 the Croatian side, and the conquests of those three sides.

10 Q. And isn't it correct that the conquest by the Serbian side

11 resulted in the greatest human suffering and the greatest material

12 destruction?

13 A. Yes. If I might just be allowed to explain. May I?

14 Q. Yes, of course.

15 A. In the extent to which on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina --

16 and this is something that is shown by later reports and I'm going on to

17 impressions once again because you've encouraged me to be able to give my

18 impressions regardless of the fact that I'm under oath, that I can speak

19 more freely in giving certain assessments and estimations --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kecmanovic, would you refrain from commenting on

21 how Mr. Tieger behaves. Yes?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, fine.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed --


25 Q. Mr. Kecmanovic, I'm not trying to cut you off from explaining to

Page 22502

1 the extent necessary your affirmative response to my question about the

2 conquest by the Serbian side resulting in the greatest human suffering and

3 the greatest material destruction, but if you want to leave it at that,

4 I'll simply note that -- or ask you to confirm that that is precisely what

5 you said in your report in the Kvocka case.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kecmanovic, when I told you not to comment on

9 Mr. Tieger's behaviour, I did not intend at that moment to stop you to

10 explain what you wanted to explain, but to do that without commenting on

11 Mr. Tieger. Just give your explanation.


13 Q. And just so we have a reasonably accurate --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger --

15 MR. TIEGER: You're right. My apologies.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- I invited Mr. Kecmanovic to give the explanation

17 he announced he would give to us.

18 Yes, please do so.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm really sorry if I'm causing any

20 trouble, if I'm making your job more difficult, but I'm simply not used to

21 giving such brief and concise answers. It is by no means my intention to

22 cause any difficulties, and I apologise for that.

23 So if we established previously that the Serb army was superior,

24 then it is only logical to conclude that they were engaged in the majority

25 of operations in the field with respect to the material damage. It is

Page 22503

1 only logical to assume that those who are superior militarily will cause

2 more damage in the field. That is what I wanted to explain.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although I can't follow your logic.

4 Mr. Tieger, please put your next question to the witness.


6 Q. And just to clarify what was meant by "conquest," in the Kvocka

7 report you provided an example of such conquests; in that case, the

8 example of Prijedor. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you explained that in Prijedor and Sanski Most, the Serbs

11 under the leadership of the Crisis Staffs first took power -- excuse me,

12 under the leadership of the SDS Crisis Staffs first took power. Correct?

13 A. I cannot be sure of that because portion of my expert report for

14 that case relating to local circumstances is something that I had to

15 consult about with people who -- local people, and it is on the basis of

16 that information that I drafted that portion of my report. So it would

17 really help me if you could just refresh my memory by quoting the relevant

18 passages of that report, if it's not a problem.

19 Q. Not a problem at all, sir. And for your benefit, I can tell you

20 it's located at page -- it can be found at page 4 of the back portion of

21 the Kvocka report, which was at tab 3, I believe. But let me quote it for

22 you and then you can check if it doesn't ring a bell.

23 So as I say --

24 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, he needs to find it. He insists

25 throughout his examination that he wants to find the place before he's

Page 22504

1 required to answer a question like that.


3 Q. Well, actually, the -- I don't -- I have no objection to that, but

4 the witness said it would help if you could refresh my memory by quoting

5 the relevant passages, which I was about to do, so --

6 MR. JOSSE: I think Mr. Tieger didn't see the witness immediately

7 looked at the usher and was clearly beckoning for some help to find the

8 place.

9 MR. TIEGER: No problem.

10 MR. JOSSE: There's no question about that in my mind.


12 Mr. Tieger, could you help the Chamber. Tab 3?

13 MR. TIEGER: Tab 3, page 5 of the back portion, Your Honour.



16 Q. I'll go through it quickly, Mr. Kecmanovic, once you find it

17 because you -- you'll have it in front of you. Look to the very back of

18 the tab. You see the last page is numbered 5 in your version.

19 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a problem. Resolve, Madam Usher.


21 Q. And as I said, Professor, I'll go through it quickly because you

22 can follow it there. "In Prijedor and Sanski Most there was a bloodless

23 revolution in which the Serbs, under the leadership of the SDS Crisis

24 Staffs, took power." Then go on to explain that there was an incident in

25 which two Serbian policemen were killed. Then it states: "This triggered

Page 22505

1 terrible --"

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we still have some difficulties to find

3 it.

4 MR. TIEGER: Page 5, Your Honour, about six or seven lines down.

5 It begins, "In Prijedor and Sanski Most ..."

6 JUDGE ORIE: I still -- we still have not found that. Yes, we

7 have -- in tab 3, Mr. Tieger, we have a numbering -- we have two times --

8 MR. TIEGER: Right. The back portion dealing with Prijedor

9 specifically --

10 JUDGE ORIE: It was not clear on from the beginning what you

11 understood by the back portion.

12 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We found it, page 5.


15 Q. Okay. As -- I won't read that first sentence again, Professor.

16 As I indicated, it goes on to relate an incident in which two Serbian

17 policemen were killed and then says: "This triggered terrible repression

18 by the Serbian military and police forces, ending in widespread expulsion

19 of the Muslim population, not only from this village but also from the

20 surrounding villages, and the torching of Muslim houses. A similar

21 incident was used as a pretext to detain all Muslim men of military age in

22 Kozarac and the surrounding area, burn their houses and expel their

23 families."

24 And in the succeeding paragraph you discuss Omarska and Keraterm,

25 describing them in the middle portion of that paragraph as extremely

Page 22506

1 inhumane and noting that war crimes were committed against individuals and

2 groups of prisoners.

3 Now, Professor, I understand, as you've explained, that this part

4 of the report was a result of work you did with other experts who had more

5 information than you did about what happened at the local level. The

6 reason I brought it to your attention was to confirm that this was among

7 the conquests that you referred to in the earlier part of the report.

8 Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, Professor, I'd like to, in light of the time, move on to a

11 couple of other issues. You -- and that was your discussion about the

12 meeting at the Terme Hotel in April of 1992. And you indicated during the

13 course of your testimony that you and Mr. Pejanovic met with Mr. Krajisnik

14 and Dr. Karadzic because you simply wanted information on the situation.

15 I think that was found at page 22356 of the transcript. Is that correct,

16 sir?

17 A. If I may?

18 Q. Sir, I --

19 A. Do I have that in my set of documents?

20 Q. No, sir. I'm referring to your testimony earlier in the course of

21 this case. So now I'm -- just to re-orient you, I'm talking about your

22 discussion --

23 A. Yes, yes, I understand you now.

24 Q. So focussing on -- on that meeting, I believe you indicated that

25 you simply wanted information on the situation. Correct?

Page 22507

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Now, that wasn't just information for information's sake or

3 out of some idle curiosity, was it? It was because of a situation of

4 great concern that was very serious.

5 A. Both. I was both curious, curious professionally. I was, after

6 all, a leader of a political party and I was in regular contact with all

7 relevant political parties at the time.

8 Q. But the underlying purpose of the meeting, the underlying reason

9 for the meeting, was a response to what you've described as a situation of

10 great concern and a situation that was very serious. That's right, isn't

11 it?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. And presumably the hope was to find some manner of eliminating the

14 problem, of alleviating the situation, of somehow resolving this crisis.

15 Right?

16 A. Yes, one can say so.

17 Q. And -- now, it seemed that your testimony before was that the only

18 result of this meeting, the only thing that happened at the meeting, was

19 that everyone agreed that the situation was very serious and everyone

20 expressed great concern, but that nothing else of value or significance

21 was discussed. Is that how you remember it?

22 A. It was just one in a series of attempts that I described yesterday

23 and the day before yesterday in my testimony which did not result in

24 anything concrete, anything specific.

25 Q. So as you remember it, nobody had any ideas about how to deal with

Page 22508

1 the crisis, how to address it, how to resolve it?

2 A. I should repeat: It was my impression that everybody, from all

3 sides, was willing to find a political solution to the problem, but no one

4 seems to be able to find the right solution and the right answer to the

5 problem.

6 Q. Well, I think we know on the basis of history that no solution was

7 found before the conflict began. The question is whether or not specific

8 proposals for addressing or attempting to resolve the looming conflict

9 were discussed at this meeting, rather than simply expressions of concern

10 and agreement that it was a very serious situation.

11 A. It was the first meeting, the one that was mentioned during this

12 discussion. It was the first one in the series of three meetings. And at

13 that time the situation was not as dramatic as it would become later on

14 during the war. But neither later, on those subsequent occasions --

15 although, as I indicated, it seemed at one point that the agreement was

16 close at hand, once again it yielded no specific, concrete results.

17 Q. Okay. I'll take that as an answer to my question that there were

18 no specific proposals for addressing or attempting to resolve the conflict

19 that you remember during that meeting.

20 A. I could perhaps be more specific and tell you that throughout that

21 time the problem with respect to a re-organisation of Bosnia was present

22 at all times. There was the problem of out-voting in the parliament

23 which, in my opinion, was the cause of the war. Then we had the mediation

24 of Cutileiro and several different solutions were advanced, but in terms

25 of specific proposals at the meeting, now this is something that I

Page 22509

1 couldn't possibly claim existed at the time.

2 Q. Right. Let me show you now a portion of a speech by Dr. Karadzic

3 made on 12th of May, 1992, to the Bosnian Serb Assembly at its 16th

4 Session.

5 And I don't know what's in front of you at the moment, that is,

6 how many pages, Mr. -- Professor Kecmanovic, but the portion I'm referring

7 to is going to be found largely at the page identified as 00847722. And

8 as you can see at the beginning -- at the top of that page, Dr. Karadzic

9 talks about "... the conflict in Sarajevo, where the Serbian people do not

10 allow a city built at the expense of all parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at

11 the expense of the Serbian people ..." Then he quotes some statistics and

12 describes the development of the city at the expense of Serbian areas and

13 then he continues: "We are not going to allow it to be excluded from our

14 state unit in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We did not want war in Sarajevo.

15 We wanted the Serbian police to control the Serbian part of the town, to

16 be responsible for what happened in the Serbian part of the town, and

17 Muslims for the Muslim part, and to make the partition without any

18 fighting, both in the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina and in Sarajevo itself.

19 All that could have been done in a peaceful manner."

20 Now, there, Professor, Dr. Karadzic indicates his retrospective

21 thoughts that the partition of Sarajevo could have been accomplished

22 without fighting, despite the -- and that is what the -- Dr. Karadzic and

23 the Bosnian Serb leadership wanted, as he described in that paragraph.

24 Did neither Dr. Karadzic nor Mr. Krajisnik mention anything like that at a

25 meeting during which everyone was expressing such concern about the

Page 22510

1 serious situation?

2 A. I don't remember that but, generally speaking, it's difficult for

3 me to remember things in precise terms because this was a long time ago.

4 And more importantly, these topics were constantly on the agenda; we

5 talked about it all the time, various maps and partitions. Later on I was

6 involved in the drafting of those maps on the request of Karadzic and

7 Krajisnik. At that time I did not mention it. I did not speak of the

8 contents of the solutions, but the topic was the partition of Sarajevo and

9 the centre of the town, where common institutions were located, that that

10 part of the city should be a district, an extraterritorial part. So

11 whether something to that effect was discussed at the meeting, I don't

12 know. It is quite possible that it wasn't, but on the other hand it was a

13 standing issue, a burning issue, at the time. But I don't remember

14 anything specific being mentioned at that time.

15 Q. Now, as you told us during your testimony, some weeks later in the

16 meeting with Mr. Izetbegovic, Mr. Krajisnik did specifically suggest the

17 division of Sarajevo, and you told us the actions that you took in

18 response to that. But you remember that -- if I recall your testimony

19 correctly, that Mr. Krajisnik was suggesting a temporary division of

20 Sarajevo.

21 A. Not only did he suggest temporary division of Sarajevo -- if we

22 could spend more time talking, I would perhaps remember details. It

23 occurred to me just now that at one point he mentioned that this was not

24 his wish but that there was a pressure on the part of the Serbian people

25 because of the ongoing conflict, that something to that effect should be

Page 22511

1 done, but that he personally was not in favour of that and that he

2 considered it to be only temporary solution. And as I indicated

3 yesterday, that he was sure that he and Mr. Izetbegovic, despite their

4 age, would see the day when the situation would return to what it had been

5 before.

6 As for his suggestion, it was only advanced as a matter of

7 principle, and then he spoke to Izetbegovic because Izetbegovic had also,

8 in principle, agreed to this temporary solution. He let Izetbegovic offer

9 specific solutions. So I don't know how it ended, whether I was supposed

10 to be the one to formulate those solutions in specific terms or not.

11 Q. Well, perhaps it's useful to look at how Mr. Krajisnik recounted

12 the potential division of Sarajevo during an interview he conducted with

13 the BBC. That can be found at tab 23, I believe.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Which has an exhibit number already. May I take it

15 that the previous one, the minutes you showed to the witness, was P65, tab

16 127? And I do understand also --

17 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- 129. But at least excerpts from the 16th

19 Assembly.


21 Q. And in your version, that can be found, Professor Kecmanovic, at

22 the bottom of the third page.

23 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honours, this is found at the top of page 4

24 of the English.

25 MR. JOSSE: Tab 23 did my learned friend say? This is -- I don't

Page 22512

1 know if I'm looking at the wrong bundle. This is an interview with

2 Mr. Tintor.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tintor.

4 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

5 MR. TIEGER: Then it would be the following tab, I believe, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have the following tab --

8 MR. JOSSE: I don't in my bundle, Your Honour.


10 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, it hasn't been -- become part

11 of the tab. It needs to be distributed as an addition.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I take it that it has been presented

13 already --

14 MR. TIEGER: That's correct.

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- with Witness D9, if I -- my memory serves me well.

16 MR. JOSSE: Yes --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mid-November.

18 MR. JOSSE: This has been exhibited, I'm fairly confident.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm even confident that it was with Witness

20 D9 --

21 MR. TIEGER: P853, Your Honour.

22 Q. Now, at this point in the interview, Mr. Krajisnik - and Defence

23 counsel will assist me if I'm wrong - was discussing that period of time

24 immediately before or just at the time of the departure of the Serbian

25 leadership from Pale. And he said at the portion -- at the pages I

Page 22513

1 indicated: "We always had at the back of our minds the division of

2 Sarajevo - so the Serbs to have their part and the Muslims theirs. This

3 is no secret. We consider that Sarajevo should be split into two cities -

4 twins. So in the best of possible scenarios those peripheral regions of

5 Sarajevo would be Serbian, while the centre would be Muslim."

6 Now, when Mr. Krajisnik says this is no secret that the Bosnian

7 Serbs always had in mind the division of Sarajevo, so that one part would

8 be Muslim and one part would be Serb, is this a secret from you?

9 A. If it were not for the last sentence you quoted, I would -- I

10 would have thought that the matter was actually opposite to what was

11 discussed at the meeting with Izetbegovic. When he mentioned that

12 suburban areas should go to Serbs and the centre of the town to Muslims,

13 Mr. Krajisnik was actually describing the factual situation, the situation

14 that prevailed before the war and during the communist regime, referring

15 to those peripheral regions of Sarajevo. That was the ethnic structure,

16 ethnic composition of Sarajevo as it had been at that time. The area of

17 the town of Sarajevo - and I assume this was probably mentioned during the

18 case - the area commonly referred to as Bascarsija, Muslims have always

19 lived there. They were always the majority population there. It was only

20 later on that I learned from some historical sources how it occurred. But

21 it was traditionally a Muslim area. It was of course not prohibited for

22 anyone else to buy property there - there were Serbs and Croats there as

23 well - however, historically speaking, it is true that the area actually

24 belonged to Serb and Jewish merchants. But as for the time I'm referring

25 to, the area was predominantly Muslim.

Page 22514

1 As for the suburb and peripheral areas, my memory is that those

2 areas were always predominantly Serb. So it was only a matter of

3 legitimising the situation as it was on the ground. That -- that is the

4 explanation that I can think of. As to what individuals thought of the

5 issue and what individual opinions were of the issue, this is not

6 something that you asked me about.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kecmanovic, if you say "that's not what you asked

8 me about," what did Mr. Tieger ask you? Isn't it that Mr. Tieger asked

9 you whether it was a secret to you at the time that Mr. Krajisnik was

10 heading for a division? Not whether that would be a logical division,

11 whether that would be a division which would be in contradiction to the

12 existing ethnic -- you are lecturing rather than asking -- responding --

13 answering questions. Please listen carefully to what Mr. -- Was it a

14 secret at that time that Mr. Krajisnik had a division of Sarajevo in his

15 mind?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As to what Mr. Krajisnik had in his

17 mind at the time, I don't know what his personal thoughts were. I'm not

18 aware of that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, you did not hesitate to explain

20 exactly to us what Mr. Krajisnik meant when he spoke those words. If I

21 take you to your testimony, you ... "Mr. Krajisnik was actually

22 describing the factual situation, the situation that prevailed before," et

23 cetera, et cetera. You're interpreting Mr. Krajisnik's words without any

24 hesitation, unsolicited to do so. So now your answer to this question is

25 that you do not know what was on Mr. Krajisnik's mind and whether it was a

Page 22515

1 secret, yes or no.

2 Mr. Kecmanovic, no one in this courtroom would expect that a

3 division of Sarajevo would take the form of giving Serbs control over

4 Muslim areas or Muslims over Serb populated areas. So this explanation of

5 logic ... This Chamber has heard quite some evidence also on Sarajevo.

6 So the answer to the question put to you by Mr. Tieger whether it was a

7 secret to you, that you say it was a secret to the extent that I would not

8 know what was in Mr. Krajisnik's mind. Yes? Is that your answer?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


11 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


13 Q. Professor, during the discussions of the Cutileiro Plan and during

14 your review of the document at tab 9, it was clear that the ethnic

15 division of Bosnia was squarely before the international community and

16 between the parties weeks and weeks earlier. Right?

17 A. Would you be so kind and repeat the question, please.

18 Q. The issue of the ethnic division, the effort to ethnically divide

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina was the central issue of the Cutileiro discussions

20 and was squarely before the parties and the international community weeks

21 before the conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Izetbegovic.

22 Correct?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And the record of those discussions that we looked at the other

25 day, not to mention other evidence that this Court has heard from sessions

Page 22516

1 of the Bosnian Serb Assembly and others, was that the position of the

2 Bosnian Serbs was that they couldn't live with Muslims. Were you aware of

3 that?

4 A. Not at that period of time. I can explain.

5 Q. No. You're saying you subsequently became aware of it but you

6 weren't aware of it at that time?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. And you never heard anybody say it during the course of your

9 involvement in the Cutileiro discussions and you never heard any Bosnian

10 Serb leader or Bosnian Serb representative express it before the time of

11 the meeting with Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Izetbegovic. Is that your

12 testimony?

13 A. It is possible that individuals spoke to that effect. I cannot

14 confirm either way, but I cannot rule out the possibility that there were

15 individuals expressing that at the time.

16 Q. And you certainly knew that the Bosnian Serbs were seeking a

17 division, an ethnic division, of Bosnia and Herzegovina; that is, a

18 division of that territory into Serbian, Muslim, and Croat entities.

19 Right?

20 A. From the out-voting in relation to the referendum, it was since

21 that time that the idea was circulated as the best solution or a

22 compromise solution that would satisfy all parties to the conflict.

23 Q. And now you're telling us that Mr. Krajisnik --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Again, Mr. Kecmanovic, the question was about what

25 the Bosnian Serbs were seeking. So if you would first answer that

Page 22517

1 question. If you would say others did as well, fine, but please focus on

2 the question.


4 Q. Do you want it repeated, sir? My question was: You certainly

5 knew, did you not, that the Bosnian Serbs were seeking an ethnic division

6 of Bosnia and Herzegovina; that is, a division of the territory into

7 Serbian, Muslim, and Croat entities.

8 A. Yes, of course, I knew.

9 Q. And -- but your testimony --

10 A. I'm sorry, but may I add something? Would you allow me to add

11 something?

12 Q. I'm not entirely -- it's not clear to me why anything needs to be

13 added, but proceed.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Kecmanovic.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a matter that was -- could

16 not be ignored. It was a topic of all public conversations. I

17 participated. I was part of the commission, Cutileiro commission, and

18 that's why the question is not specific enough. I would like you to refer

19 me to what specific -- what specifically you have in mind when you ask

20 this question. I just want to understand better your question and for us

21 to understand each other better.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, for better understanding perhaps 25

23 minutes of a break would help us. We'll adjourn and have a break,

24 Mr. Kecmanovic, until five minutes past 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

Page 22518

1 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Professor Kecmanovic, I want to take you back to one of the last

5 items you discussed during the course of your examination-in-chief by

6 Mr. Stewart, and that was excerpt from the book by Misha Glenny.

7 MR. TIEGER: And it may be helpful if the witness can have that

8 exhibit before him.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That was a Defence exhibit, yes.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: There's no translation yet, Mr. Tieger --

12 MR. TIEGER: Oh, that's right, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- you should be aware. Perhaps if you want to put

14 to the witness a certain portion, perhaps you could slowly read that so

15 that both the witness and Mr. Krajisnik can follow.


17 Q. Well, first of all, Mr. Kecmanovic, let me ascertain from you the

18 extent to which it will be necessary or helpful to cite the entire excerpt

19 that was the focus of the discussion earlier. First of all, generally I

20 take it you remember the excerpt and the discussion with Mr. Stewart.

21 And as I understand it, that was a reflection of a conversation

22 that -- between you and Mr. Glenny that you couldn't recall in its

23 entirety but recall generally certain aspects of?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Now, just to focus you on a part of the book that places it in

Page 22519

1 context, the passage that Mr. Stewart quoted began: "Nenad Kecmanovic

2 served for a short time ..." was a brief introductory passage that -- for

3 the benefit of the reader. But immediately before that and immediately

4 after that Mr. Glenny places the conversation in context, and let me

5 provide that for you.

6 So the paragraph immediately before said: "In the first phase of

7 the war, the world media focussed most of their attention on the plight of

8 the besieged capital, Sarajevo. There was no special reason why the

9 Bosnian Serb leadership channeled so much of its military effort into the

10 siege. While it was in their interests to cut communication links with

11 the Bosnian government strongholds to the north and west, the gratuitous

12 destruction of Sarajevo itself was merely an expression of hatred."

13 And then -- so that's the portion that precedes the description of

14 your conversation with Mr. Koljevic. And then -- of course, at the end of

15 the -- the conversation that he relates ends in the following way, with

16 Dr. Koljevic nodding his head sagely about being too personally involved

17 with Sarajevo and then adding absent-mindedly as an afterthought: "Of

18 course with everybody worrying about Sarajevo, it means that they don't

19 pay much attention to what's going on elsewhere."

20 And then Mr. Glenny continues in his book: "In early August,

21 however, the world did begin to learn about the bestial things that had

22 been happening in eastern and northern Bosnia." And explains that, "This

23 was largely due to some particularly courageous reporting ..."

24 Now, it's -- the point of that story and the point of Mr. -- of

25 Dr. Koljevic's afterthought that no one was paying much attention to what

Page 22520

1 was going on elsewhere, as indicated by Mr. Glenny, was that it deflected

2 focus -- that the attention to Sarajevo by the international community,

3 among others, deflected focus from what was happening in other parts of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Isn't that right, and isn't that how you

5 understood it?

6 A. As I've already said, as I said when Mr. Stewart was quoting this,

7 I remember that evening and the dinner I had with Koljevic and Glenny, but

8 I denied some concrete allegations as simply being incorrect. Now, as far

9 as this part is concerned, I said that I don't remember that that's how it

10 was, that I do know that I said that all of us in one way or another had

11 been occupied with Sarajevo, and it was logical for me because I spent the

12 whole of the war in Bosnia in Sarajevo. Now, as to the continuation, I

13 really can't say, I can't comment on that.

14 Q. First of all, I'd note for the record that your denial of some

15 concrete allegation as simply being incorrect, I'll remind you, was a

16 product of either a translation misunderstanding or the fact that you

17 didn't hear that Glenny, in his account, said that the reports that you

18 had fled Sarajevo for your safety and arrived in a very poor condition

19 were erroneous. You'll recall that, right? That he was saying those were

20 erroneous; we wasn't saying that that was true. And you began to deny it

21 and then you realised, in fact, that the two of you were in agreement.

22 Okay. I see you nodding your head, so I'll take that as an

23 affirmative response.

24 A. No, it is not an affirmative response. When we're talking about

25 allegations that I was beaten up in Sarajevo, that was too personal a

Page 22521

1 matter and too serious a matter for me not to have remembered that. Had I

2 been beaten up, I would have remembered that very well to the present day.

3 Now, when we come to certain quotes from a conversation during a dinner or

4 in the course of an evening, that is something I am less likely to

5 remember, and that's quite natural.

6 Q. Okay. Well, you made the point yesterday that Mr. Krajisnik was

7 fond of repeating one of his stories and told us how you jokingly used to

8 indicate you were prepared to leave the room if he was about to embark on

9 a similar account. And Mr. Koljevic, too, like, I suppose, all the rest

10 of us, was also, at least occasionally, prone to repeat some stories or

11 observations. Right?

12 A. What is linked to Mr. Krajisnik, they were regular sessions,

13 parliamentary -- our parliamentary parties, their leaders, and so on.

14 Q. Okay. Professor, if you say that -- let me just move on to the

15 issue I want to bring your attention to. I'd like to present you with

16 another conversation that Dr. Koljevic had on the same subject and see if

17 that refreshes your recollection about this conversation that you and

18 Dr. Koljevic had that you related to Mr. Glenny.

19 MR. TIEGER: And if I could have that presented to the witness,

20 please.

21 JUDGE ORIE: By the way, while doing so, Mr. Tieger, I'd like to

22 draw your attention to when earlier you referred -- I think it was 26 or

23 24, I'm not quite sure. The interview, when you said to the witness,

24 you're reported to say this and this and this. I noticed that the English

25 version does not have quotation marks where the B/C/S version has. Now, I

Page 22522

1 do not know what is the original, but someone has either left out or put

2 quotation marks in there. Now, the witness gave his testimony on the

3 matter, but I'm not very happy to see two versions of a -- one which seems

4 to describe just a situation, another where it's a description of the

5 situation is in quotation marks for the person interviewed. So could you

6 please try to find that out. I think it was one of the Tanjug, where you

7 started giving us the wrong one, and I think it was finally 24 or 26.

8 MR. TIEGER: I know which exhibit you're referring to, Your

9 Honour, and I'll be happy to, of course, check on that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please try to find out.

11 Then we go to the next exhibit.


13 Q. Professor Kecmanovic, this is an excerpt from another journalist,

14 in this case, Ed Vulliamy, out of a book entitled "Seasons in Hell." And

15 he relates a conversation with Dr. Koljevic in which the same subject was

16 discussed. And I'll read that.

17 "At this point of the war, the worst had been hidden from

18 eye-witnesses, and could be gleaned only after the event, from witnesses'

19 testimony. Unlike the siege of Sarajevo, which was there for all to see,

20 the ethnic cleansing programme was not for public consumption. Karadzic's

21 intellectual shadow, a Serbian member of the Bosnian Presidency Nikola

22 Koljevic, later admitted to me that Sarajevo was designated a piece of

23 violent theatre which could captivate world attention and draw it away

24 from the principal programme. Professor Koljevic, who has good English

25 and pedantically quotes Shakespeare to illustrate every point, chastised

Page 22523

1 me over tea and cakes in a smart Belgrade hotel: 'It amazes me that you

2 all took so long to get to the point.'" Now I'm indicating a quote from

3 Professor Koljevic: "It amazes me that you all took so long to get to the

4 point. Poor Sarajevo! That was all you could think about. The

5 crossroads of Europe! None of you had ever been on holiday in Trnopolje,

6 Ha Ha!"

7 Professor Kecmanovic, does that refresh your recollection about

8 the conversation with Dr. Koljevic and the point he was making about the

9 attention focussed on Sarajevo?

10 A. I would like to remind you of two things here: One thing is that

11 I lived in Sarajevo right up until the 5th of July, 1992. That's one

12 fact. And the second fact is that I was not a member of the Serbian

13 National Movement or the SDS. And you, during what you said yesterday,

14 quoted certain facts with relation to the Serbian Democratic Party and the

15 media, Serb media towards me, and you quoted --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kecmanovic, I'm going to stop you again. You're

17 not answering the question. The question was whether this quote from a

18 book of Ed Vulliamy, whether that refreshes your memory, that is, that

19 brings back into your mind, perhaps being of a similar nature, the

20 discussion you had with Professor Koljevic. Reading this, brings that

21 anything to you as far as your recollection of your conversation with

22 Mr. Koljevic is concerned? That was the question.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is no.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


Page 22524

1 Q. Well, without regard to the very specifics - and I know you're a

2 stickler for specifics, Professor - isn't it the case that what you

3 communicated to Mr. Glenny was that Dr. Koljevic had added as an

4 afterthought that the benefit of all the focus on Sarajevo was that it

5 deflected the attention of the international community to the events that

6 were happening elsewhere in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

7 A. That portion - and I have to repeat - as far as I remember, that

8 part of the conversation did not have any contents like that or that

9 meaning, to the best of my recollections.

10 Q. And you have -- do you have any explanation for why Mr. Glenny

11 understood you to be communicating that by your account of the

12 conversation to him?

13 A. I didn't understand you. Communicating what? My account what?

14 Q. From the excerpts in Mr. Glenny's book, does it not seem clear to

15 you that he understood that the focus of that comment by Dr. Koljevic and

16 the focus of bringing it to his attention was to note that the world media

17 had focussed its attention on Sarajevo and not its attention on what was

18 happening elsewhere in Bosnia but that it finally began to come out in

19 August?

20 A. The sense of my intervention that Glenny mentions - and as far as

21 I remember, that is correct that I did say that we were concentrating on

22 Sarajevo too much - the sense of that sentence of mine was this: That in

23 the conversation that we were having at the time, we were dealing with

24 Sarajevo exclusively. And my intervention went along quite different

25 lines; the sense of it was quite different. You must understand this: It

Page 22525

1 wasn't a formal, official conversation of any kind. We were sitting down

2 to dinner, Glenny, Koljevic and myself, we were having dinner, and we were

3 having a conversation. Koljevic asked about Sarajevo a great deal, and I

4 can repeat that part of his family -- his brother was in the city of

5 Sarajevo, he was down there, so we were discussing things like that. And

6 to the best of my recollections, this story, personal stories around

7 Sarajevo, was for this third person in our conversation at the dinner was

8 that we were too -- concentrating on Sarajevo too much, rather than the

9 political connotation that this seems to have.

10 Q. That's fine, Professor.

11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I have no more questions.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

13 Mr. Josse, any questions in re-examination?

14 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, my case manager reminded me

15 that the previous exhibit did not get a number.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's right. That's the newly provided --

17 THE REGISTRAR: The excerpt from the book entitled "Seasons in

18 Hell," Your Honours, will be given the provisional Exhibit number P1151.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. That's author Ed Vulliamy.

20 Yes, Mr. Josse.

21 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I spent most of the last break with

22 Mr. Krajisnik. I need to spend some more time with him. He has given me

23 a document which he would like me to ask the witness some questions about.

24 I really need to discuss that further. I also am far from clear that it

25 arises from cross-examination. So I may need to seek leave of the Court.

Page 22526

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. And you need more time for that?

2 MR. JOSSE: I do.

3 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need?

4 MR. JOSSE: Well, as much time as the Court is prepared to give me

5 realistically.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we would like to finish today, so what are we

7 talking about?

8 MR. JOSSE: Half an hour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Do you need -- then we make this half an hour the

10 second break, which means that we would restart at 12.00, which might also

11 limit our time for the remainder of the morning, but I think we would be

12 able to finish at approximately 1.30.

13 MR. JOSSE: Yes. As Your Honour is aware, the next witness is not

14 in this building.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No, but I do -- I do understand that you want to

16 start the examination of that witness tomorrow morning.

17 MR. JOSSE: Correct.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll have our next break for half an hour, and

19 then we'll resume at 12.00.

20 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

21 --- Recess taken at 11.32 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.09 p.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

24 MR. JOSSE: Well, thank you for the time, Your Honour. It is

25 arguable that what Mr. Krajisnik wishes me to ask about does, in fact,

Page 22527

1 arise, but in any event, with the Court's leave, I'd like to see how we

2 get on. The best I could do was, at the beginning of the break, provide

3 my learned friend with a B/C/S copy of the various documents that my

4 client provided me with overnight.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And he immediately started reading it, I take

6 it, Mr. Tieger. Well, that could cause us some problems, although that

7 has happened before on both sides, although more frequently on the Defence

8 side. Let's see what it is. I take it that you used half your hour to

9 try to get a language assistant in order to see what the document was

10 approximately about.

11 MR. TIEGER: That's completely correct, with the emphasis on the

12 "approximate."


14 Let's see what happens.

15 MR. JOSSE: I'm grateful.

16 Re-examination by Mr. Josse:

17 Q. Mr. Kecmanovic, you have before you the first three pages of this

18 short bundle which are the minutes of the Presidency of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina, dated the 20th of June of 1992. It's correct that if we look

20 at the first page, you were not present at that meeting.

21 A. Obviously, yes.

22 Q. We see that the meeting took place at 11.00 in the morning. Do

23 you know why you -- neither you nor Mr. Pejanovic were present?

24 A. I cannot remember what session this was. I don't know whether

25 this was one of those sessions where they "couldn't find us" from the

Page 22528

1 administration.

2 Yes, I see under item 2, "Draft decision to declare a state of

3 war," so it must have been one of those sessions. I think I actually

4 mentioned this one while I was examined by Mr. Stewart.

5 Q. Yes. Item 6 on the third page that I'd first of all like to ask

6 you about, and about halfway down the page we see a contribution from

7 Halilovic which relates, does it not, to possible population exchanges in

8 the Banja Luka area?

9 A. Excuse me. What paragraph are you referring to? Page 3, item 6?

10 Q. Middle of the page, a paragraph that begins "Sefer Halilovic ..."

11 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, could the paragraph be read first

12 so that we have a -- at least an impression of what the paragraph says.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. There's a small housekeeping

14 matter. I have the benefit of a portion that was highlighted thoughtfully

15 by the Defence, and so it is my suggestion that if it is going continuing

16 references to another paragraph - and that seems to be the case - Mr.

17 Josse should identify that and we can read them all out at once.

18 MR. JOSSE: Yes, that is correct. It's the next three paragraphs.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So there's the paragraph that starts with Sefer

20 Halilovic, with Fikret Abdic, and Alija Izetbegovic, is that --

21 MR. JOSSE: That's correct.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And then it continues until three lines from the

23 bottom, not including [B/C/S spoken] and something like 1300.

24 MR. JOSSE: That's right, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could we ask someone -- perhaps if anyone on

Page 22529

1 your team -- I know that it was always the task of Ms. Smeric, and we miss

2 her voice, but if there's anyone on your team who could slowly read it so

3 it could be interpreted.

4 MR. JOSSE: Could I have a moment, please?


6 [Defence counsel confer]

7 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, read it in B/C/S or read it --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Read it in B/C/S.

9 MR. JOSSE: Yes, of course there's no problem with that. It's

10 Mr. Sladojevic, and I'll --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Sladojevic, it would be highly appreciated

12 if you read on from "Sefer Hallilovic [B/C/S spoken]." And, please,

13 slowly so that it can be translated.

14 MR. SLADOJEVIC: [Interpretation] "Sefer Halilovic conveyed a

15 criticism of combatants with respect to the people who had fled Sarajevo

16 and Bosnia and Herzegovina in this war, stating that they should not be

17 given any function -- any functions, any offices. He further pointed out

18 certain objections that UNPROFOR was carrying Chetniks in their

19 vehicles --"


21 MR. SLADOJEVIC: [Interpretation] "He continued with objections as

22 to exchange of population with a view of creating ethnically pure areas or

23 settlements. Fikret Abdic requested that the government solve the issue

24 of electricity for Krajina (in Jajce) and informed about the war situation

25 in Bihac. Alija Izetbegovic informed the Presidency about the talks with

Page 22530

1 the president of the Zenica municipality, the issue of transfer of Muslims

2 from Banja Luka, emphasising in particular the threat that they would be

3 killed if they did not leave Banja Luka."

4 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Sladojevic has stopped there because that's the

5 passages that we had highlighted, and that's all.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.

7 MR. TIEGER: Well, I understand, Your Honour, but I don't have the

8 benefit of an English portion. What I see in the next paragraph is

9 something about [B/C/S spoken] --

10 MR. JOSSE: Of course, Your Honour, there's no problem.

11 MR. TIEGER: It could be relevant.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [B/C/S spoken], which comes close to words that we

13 heard before. So would you please -- we have the Banja Luka sentence.

14 There's one remaining up till the line where 1300 appears. So could that

15 last portion be read, as well.

16 MR. SLADOJEVIC: Yes, Your Honour, there are actually two

17 sentences.

18 [Interpretation] "Nonetheless, if that would be adopted, that

19 would lead to the creation of ethnically pure areas. Our country must not

20 accept the pressure for creating ethnically pure areas."

21 MR. JOSSE: Sorry, Your Honour, that should have been read,

22 Mr. Tieger is quite right, because it's highly relevant.


24 MR. JOSSE: To be fair, that wasn't in the marked passage that

25 Mr. Sladojevic had in front of him.

Page 22531

1 Q. Now, firstly, before I direct you to something else, this issue of

2 population exchanges being discussed at the Presidency, do you have any

3 information or knowledge about that?

4 A. I remember that during my time at the Presidency, that is, for

5 about one month, there were exchanges of population and that the issue,

6 because we were dealing with the exchanges between the Serb and the Muslim

7 side, that it was Mirko Pejanovic who was working on this -- on this

8 issue. And in light of our internal work division, I was dealing with the

9 pulling out of Serbs from local prisons in Sarajevo.

10 So it was Mirko Pejanovic who worked on this and who conducted

11 with the president, Izetbegovic, on the issue with Ganic as well, and I

12 don't know who else was on the Serb side, who was in charge of this

13 particular aspect. Certain individuals, smaller or larger groups of

14 people were in question. We're not talking about large groups of people,

15 but there were lists of people on both sides who were to be exchanged.

16 Q. When Mr. Izetbegovic says, "Our country must not accept the

17 pressure for creating ethnically pure areas," does that accurately reflect

18 what you understood to be his views at the time -- views and goals,

19 perhaps I should say, at the time?

20 A. I'd like to remind you - and you're probably aware of that -

21 before the election or during the electoral campaign and before political

22 parties were formed, and this is something that all parties were involved

23 in, I remember two large rallies of SDA, one in Kladusa in the area of

24 Cazin, and the other in Foca, in Eastern Bosnia. On that occasion,

25 Izetbegovic, while addressing the rally, mentioned -- or stated that we,

Page 22532

1 that is, the leadership of the SDS, that we were accusing them of wanting

2 to create an Islamic, Muslim, state. And then he asked a rhetorical

3 question: Brothers and sisters, do we really want an Islamic republic?

4 And much to his surprise, those who were gathered at the rally said: Yes,

5 yes, we do. And then he replied: No, it is much too early for that. We

6 will take as much territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina as we can control

7 with success. And this is something that was frequently quoted in Muslim

8 media with respect to Izetbegovic.

9 What I want to say is that Izetbegovic had a rather strange

10 position, and he often changed his view in relation to this issue. In

11 response to a question by a journalist, he once answered something to the

12 effect that in the morning he thought about one issue in one way and then

13 in the afternoon about the same issue in another way. And this is a --

14 something that has been often quoted ever since, first in Muslim media and

15 then in Bosnian media, as they're now called. But let me finish. On one

16 hand this practice is being criticised, but on the other hand they were

17 taking part in this issue and they were actually not condemning at the

18 time this practice.

19 MR. JOSSE: Could Your Honour give me one moment?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could ask the witness first ...

21 [Defence counsel confer]

22 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, the position is that the remaining pages

23 in this small bundle are extracts from the book "Cunning Strategy" by

24 Sefer Halilovic, part of which has already been exhibited in this case.

25 And if we turn to page 137 at the bottom, we see - of course in B/C/S only

Page 22533

1 - what amounts to Mr. Halilovic's commentary on the session that the

2 witness has just commented upon, the one of the 20th of June, 1992, at

3 11.00 in the morning. There are some parts of Mr. Halilovic's commentary

4 that we would like to put to this witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Before doing so, could we please seek a clarification

6 of one of the previous answers of the witness -- his last answer.

7 You said, Mr. Kecmanovic: "On one hand this practice is being

8 criticised, but on the other hand they were taking part in this issue and

9 they were actually not condemning it at the time, this practice."

10 First of all, what did you exactly mean by this practice which

11 they did not condemn?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had two -- or rather, three things

13 in mind. One is that exchanges of population were taking place also in

14 the organisation of the Presidency, but not to a great extent, and that my

15 colleague, Mirko Pejanovic, was involved as a representative of the Serb

16 community and was liaising with the other side on the issue. Izetbegovic

17 is -- represented the other community. What I'm trying to say is that at

18 that level there were organised exchanges of population in accordance with

19 specific lists. The Muslim side would ask for certain individuals to be

20 transferred to the Muslim territory, and the Serbs did the same with their

21 lists. So that's one, one thing.

22 Second, I mentioned that Izetbegovic --

23 JUDGE ORIE: I will already seek some clarification there. In

24 terms of numbers, are we talking about tens of names on those lists,

25 people being exchanged, or at least -- are we talking about hundreds or

Page 22534

1 are we talking about thousands? What should I understand to be the scale

2 approximately at that time?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're talking about numbers not

4 higher than 50, 50 individuals, on the one hand. On the other hand, it

5 was a continuing process. Occasionally there would be groups of 10 to 20

6 people, never more than 50. Pejanovic was in contact with Izetbegovic,

7 sometimes with Ganic regarding the issue constantly.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, with what frequency, approximately? Should I

9 think of ten lists a month, or five, or 25? Just -- I'm trying to gain an

10 impression of what we're talking about. Because if you say 10 to 20 never

11 more than 50, that would bring me to an average of anything; 25, perhaps

12 30, which would mean ten lists a month would be altogether --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On average, yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: -- 250, 300 people a month. Is that a -- although

15 not a very precise indication that could reflect the size of it at that

16 moment?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should now do some math, and I'm

18 not very good at it. It never went beyond 50, but it was a continuous

19 practice, and occasionally there would be two parallel activities of the

20 kind, but I was not involved in it so I couldn't tell you anything about

21 the details. The next thing I said in relation to that was that

22 Izetbegovic in various stages publicly advocated, even before the

23 elections, an ethnically separate part of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is,

24 the Muslim part, which -- later to become the Bosniak part. And I drew

25 the -- I wanted to draw your attention to his different views, different

Page 22535

1 stances that he took at different occasions.

2 And lastly, what I wanted to mention with regard to this issue,

3 the minutes that I have in front of me, one could perhaps gain the

4 impression on the basis of these minutes that these things were happening

5 continuously and that Izetbegovic criticised it regularly, that he

6 actually criticised something that happened at that time. At least, this

7 is how I understood it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask one clarification on the second point

9 you raised. You said that even before the elections, I take it the 1991

10 elections?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1990.

12 JUDGE ORIE: 1990. I'm sorry, I misspoke. Did Mr. Izetbegovic --

13 you said he -- "he advocated an ethnically separate part of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina." Now, that is not entirely clear to me because you could

15 say: I would like to have a separate part where a Muslim majority would

16 be ruling, and therefore we have to divide it a bit. Say, for example, we

17 make that province or one substate, whatever construction you would have

18 in mind, which is not the same as Muslim rule in an ethnically pure

19 territory, which means Muslim rule but no Serbs, no Croats perhaps even,

20 should stay in that territory. I understand from this portion of this

21 document that they were discussing -- and let me read it again because I

22 haven't got it on paper. I'm going to try to quote it literally. That he

23 said that: "If that would be adopted, that would lead to the creation of

24 ethnically pure areas. Our country must not accept the pressure for

25 creating ethnically pure areas."

Page 22536

1 Now, when you said that Mr. Izetbegovic publicly advocated

2 separate -- ethnically separate territories, would that include that the

3 areas should become ethnically pure or was it just about Muslim majority

4 ruling over that area? Because that seems also to be very much the main

5 difference between the Cutileiro Plan and what is -- at least seems to

6 have been discussed here, that you finally end up with an ethnically pure

7 area. So what did Mr. Izetbegovic advocate in this respect?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The occasion I mentioned, this rally

9 in Foca during the election campaign, he did not specify, he didn't go

10 into any details after he said that. So I'm inclined to believe that this

11 was exactly what you're talking about in the Cutileiro Plan and the plans

12 that were advanced by the parties during the war and the international

13 mediators, such as Vance and Owen. The idea of ethnically pure areas was

14 never advocated. They were talking about majority areas with the respect

15 of minority rights and autonomies. So these ethnic regions would not have

16 only been part of one single state, but the rights of the minorities would

17 also be guaranteed. And the principle of reciprocity would be applied;

18 the Western Bosnia would be the similar position as Eastern Bosnia, and so

19 on and so forth. I don't think that any side at any point advocated

20 ethnically pure, literally ethnically pure areas. I am familiar with

21 Banja Luka. I am a visiting professor at the university there and I have

22 Muslim friends there who have spent -- who spent the entire war in Banja

23 Luka and are now ministers in the government.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. This Chamber received quite

25 some evidence on -- specifically also on Banja Luka and how the

Page 22537

1 composition of the population there was during the war. Yes, that's clear

2 to me.

3 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I -- could I say -- I hope I'll be

4 forgiven for saying this, that in fact the very point that Your Honour has

5 been asking questions about when the witness said: "But on the other hand

6 they were taking part in this issue and they were actually not condemning

7 at the time this practice," that is exactly why Mr. Krajisnik wanted me to

8 try and elicit this evidence, and it does feed into the next document,

9 which is this extract from Mr. Halilovic's book.


11 MR. JOSSE: What I would respectfully suggest, although not ideal,

12 I know, is to invite the witness to read this one and a half pages,

13 summarise it for us, to comment upon it, and then of course we'll have it

14 translated in due course.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Josse, I'm a bit hesitant to ask the

16 witness to summarise this. We heard the witness's explanation on how he

17 operated as an expert and to say: Well, what I said as an expert -- it's

18 -- the witness would be gone once we receive the translation and then it

19 would be too late. I'm quite hesitant.

20 But, Mr. Tieger, if you have any --

21 MR. JOSSE: Well -- yes, of course. There are some passages that

22 we have highlighted, and we could go through the same process of

23 Mr. Sladojevic reading them out.

24 MR. TIEGER: It may be -- it may appear to be more cumbersome, but

25 I think it's the only possible -- reasonable way to proceed.

Page 22538

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course I asked Mr. Tieger -- I expressed my

2 hesitation. Of course, Mr. Tieger has had already the advantage of both

3 the text and a language assistant for some time, although as we said, only

4 to get approximately.

5 MR. JOSSE: Not for long, though. I'll come to his rescue on

6 that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore ...

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Reading and -- of course you may select the

10 relevant portions, and you should take care that the context remains

11 sufficiently clear.

12 MR. JOSSE: One moment, please.


14 [Defence counsel confer]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to say during the

16 break -- during this short break, if the Presiding Judge will allow me, to

17 say a few words. May I? Thank you.

18 I don't want you to gain the impression with what you said at the

19 end that you know about the changes in the population structure in Banja

20 Luka. I know about that, too, of course. And when I said that there are

21 many people whom I know, Bosniaks and Croats alike, who stayed there

22 during the war, I didn't mean to deny any changes by giving that

23 illustration. However, I have to remind you once again, as a man living

24 in Sarajevo, that that's where the greatest changes took place in the

25 ethnic population structure, precisely in the city of Sarajevo.

Page 22539

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm aware. We do not -- we try not to gain

2 just impressions of you. We try to listen as carefully as possible to

3 what you actually say.

4 Mr. Josse.

5 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Well, Mr. Sladojevic is going to read, Your

6 Honour, on page 137 from where it says [B/C/S spoken].

7 THE INTERPRETER: May we have a reference, please?

8 MR. JOSSE: Yes, a third of the way up the page -- beg your

9 pardon, a third of the way down the page. Sorry.

10 THE INTERPRETER: And that is page 137?

11 MR. JOSSE: 137, at the bottom.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's the beginning of the large last

13 paragraph of that page.

14 MR. JOSSE: He's also going to read the four lines in bold type at

15 the very top of that page.


17 May I remind you that reading goes very easily far too quickly.

18 Yes, could you please read slowly.

19 MR. SLADOJEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

20 [Interpretation] "Excerpt from a tape-recording of a session of

21 the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina held on the 20th of

22 June, 1992. The session commenced at 1100 hours, Alija Izetbegovic

23 presiding, president of the Presidency of the Republic of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 "Halilovic: And secondly, I should like briefly to inform you

Page 22540

1 about something that, in my opinion, is a very dangerous phenomenon which

2 has been happening on the territory of the Bihac Krajina region.

3 According to certain other information that we have at our disposal, this

4 is not an isolated phenomenon, unfortunately. This phenomenon is so

5 dangerous that it touches upon the basic political relationships within

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina and can have unforeseeable consequences, namely,

7 according to a report from the command of the regional staff of the

8 Territorial Defence of the Bihac region, Mr. Hajrudin Osmanagic, president

9 of the SDA Party for the Bihac region; Dr. Irfan Ljubijankic; and

10 president of the Bihac municipality, Nenad Ibrahimpasic held talks in

11 Bihac with a delegation of the SDS from Banja Luka who throughout the time

12 in Krajina were driving UNPROFOR vehicles. An agreement was also reached

13 on the exchange of population and their displacement from the Banja Luka

14 region, and the Serbs from these regions to be relocated to the Banja Luka

15 region. I think that this is a very dangerous phenomenon for our

16 struggle, and I would like you to take a stand on this very important

17 issue. In this way, we are directly playing into the hands of those whose

18 intention it is to create ethnically pure territories because, with the

19 relocation and displacement of the population, they are creating pure,

20 national entities, or units, which leads to the disintegration of the

21 Bosnian state and its ethnic division. One group of citizens of Muslim

22 nationality, Muslim ethnicity, in Banja Luka was given two or three hours

23 to pack up their personal belongings and they were expelled after that

24 from there. And they've already arrived in the Zenica region, whereas in

25 the area of Sanski Most, Prijedor, and Bosanski Novi, that activity, based

Page 22541

1 on reports received yesterday and today, is underway. In the Chetnik

2 ethnic cleansing of those areas, UNPROFOR is cooperating, which is even

3 bringing in buses taking in passengers and transporting them according to

4 some plan of their own. Two and a half thousand Muslims have already been

5 transported to Lika and Titova Korenica, where they have been given

6 temporary residence awaiting to continue their journey further. Since

7 after Lika and Titova Korenica their lives were brought into danger from

8 the areas of Cazin and Bosanska Krupa, 540 citizens of Serb ethnicity

9 asked to leave, which was agreed upon at a meeting in Titova Korenica

10 between Dr. Ljubijankic and Nenad Ibrahimpasic with an SDS delegation

11 under the auspices of UNPROFOR. This is a political but also very

12 important military question because it is in direct opposition to the

13 goals of our struggle and calls for a studious analysis after all the

14 necessary information has been gathered from the field. All the more so

15 as this phenomenon is not isolated, because SRNA has shown large numbers

16 of Serb nationals from Central Bosnia, the Neretva River valley on

17 temporarily occupied territory, and that: Nevesinje, Boracko Jezero, and

18 mostly in the suburbs of Sarajevo - Vogosca, Ilijas, Ilidza, et cetera.

19 They are in large numbers for us to be -- they are in such large numbers

20 that it is impossible to speak of individual cases. It is quite obviously

21 a broader action behind which stand the local structures and MUP. Just

22 for your knowledge, this action increases the blockade and siege of the

23 city of Sarajevo because it mitigates or does away with the problem that

24 the Chetniks have, and that is the lack of manpower.

25 "And finally, I should like to ask Mr. Jure Pelivan as president

Page 22542

1 -- as Prime Minister of the government, that through UNPROFOR he should

2 resolve the problem of energy -- electricity cuts through the Bihac region

3 by the Chetnik authorities from Banja Luka. Energy is used as a weapon

4 here, so the demands of our organs of power and authority from Jajce that

5 they cut off power in Banja Luka. The lack of electricity in Bihac is

6 causing many problems, and among others the radio and television network

7 cannot work, through which we transmit danger signals. And so yesterday

8 several shells fell and eight civilians and five fighters were killed.

9 The problem is an urgent one and calls for urgent action. May it be noted

10 that Muhamed Cengic, at one of the next meetings of the Presidency, was

11 appointed economic representative of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

12 and the Republic of Turkey, and the Presidency, on the population exchange

13 that I informed them about, never discussed or in any way reacted to this

14 phenomenon which, to a lesser or greater extent, appeared later on in

15 different parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for reading, and the interpreters were able

17 to follow you closely, I noticed.


19 Q. We heard at the very beginning of that extract, Mr. Kecmanovic,

20 that the session was tape recorded. Of course, you weren't at this

21 particular session, but were you aware that sessions were being tape

22 recorded?

23 A. Yes, yes. And actually, at first we were given some summaries of

24 that meeting, but not later on. And that was justified by the situation.

25 They said that the situation justified it when it was technically not

Page 22543

1 possible to do it in any other way because it was costly and so on.

2 Q. The words in italics on page 138 amount to a commentary on what

3 Mr. Halilovic had just described as taking place in the meeting. Is that

4 correct? Is that your understanding of it?

5 A. Yes. In fact, Halilovic --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I noticed too late that you're on your

7 feet.

8 MR. TIEGER: I -- I just think the witness will be commenting --

9 responding to the specific question, but there seems to be built in an

10 assumption that may not have been intended and that was that the earlier

11 portions of the -- of what was read out was a description by Mr. Halilovic

12 rather than a -- in any event, it was unclear to me which portions were a

13 description and which portions were a reflection of the tape-recorded

14 session. Maybe that needs to be clarified as well.

15 MR. JOSSE: Well, I agree with my learned friend.

16 Q. As best you can, Mr. Kecmanovic, what do you understand a

17 distinction between the parts that are in italics and those parts that are

18 not italicised?

19 A. As I understand it, this is it: What is written in normal letters

20 is some sort of -- well, it says here "Excerpt from the tape-recording of

21 the Presidency session." So there's no doubt that what we're dealing with

22 there is the tape-recording. Now, what it says as remark, or NB, it is

23 Cengic's comment, I would say, a comment which more or less coincides with

24 what I myself said on different occasions during these few days, and that

25 is that the Presidency functioned highly irregularly and that Izetbegovic

Page 22544

1 led it in a very arbitrary fashion. So not only as I, but Halilovic too,

2 was not able to attend some of those sessions, deprived of the opportunity

3 to attend. But until the situation of war was proclaimed, he was not

4 actually a member of the Presidency, he was just invited to take part in

5 what was called the expanded Presidency which had no form. It just had a

6 description. Various people were invited on various occasions. Sometimes

7 it would be Sefer Halilovic, other times it would be Doko, who was defence

8 minister, a Croat, let me mention in passing, and an HDZ representative.

9 So as far as I'm concerned, Halilovic here, after a proclamation of a

10 state of war, became a member of the War Presidency, a fully fledged

11 member with the right to vote. But quite obviously what happened to me

12 and Pejanovic happened to him; we were quite simply not included in

13 certain matters, so I have an explanation for that, if you're interested

14 in hearing it, why this was happening to Sefer Halilovic.

15 Q. Not at the moment. You said at the earlier part of the answer, or

16 at least the translation came across as Cengic's comment. This is clearly

17 Halilovic's comment, isn't it?

18 A. About Halilovic's comment of Cengic. Cengic's appointment as

19 representative to Turkey, and so on. That is linked to the remark that

20 those who left Sarajevo shouldn't be given any positions to occupy.

21 Muhamed Cengic was an important person in the hierarchy. He happened to

22 go Turkey, he was on business there, he didn't return, and then they asked

23 that he be given the title of ambassador or diplomatic representative or

24 something like that, and Halilovic was quite obviously opposed to that.

25 But subsequently it seems that he was accorded that position. That is to

Page 22545

1 say, Muhamed Cengic was accorded that position.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue.

3 Mr. Josse, I feel some need to have this part read again very

4 slowly because from the last answer of the witness I took it that

5 Mr. Cengic was not appointed economic president of the Republic of Bosnia

6 and the Republic of Turkey and the Presidency on the population exchange

7 that I informed them about, never discussed or in any way reacted. It's

8 unclear what positions Mr. Cengic now exactly was appointed.

9 MR. JOSSE: Could I, just to clarify the matter, say this, that

10 it's the second part of Halilovic's comments that the Defence are

11 concerned about, frankly.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the witness tells us about what happened

13 with Mr. Cengic, so if you say that's not relevant for us at this moment,

14 let's stop him there and put a specific question.

15 MR. JOSSE: I would say that. It's not relevant. It's the second

16 part of the part that is headed "Napomena."

17 Q. Can I ask you, Mr. Kecmanovic, to explain what you understand by

18 the word "napomena."

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may.


21 MR. TIEGER: Professor, excuse me --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we not ask the interpreters to tell us what

23 "napomena" means? Because it's a bit unclear in the translation where

24 "napomena" seems to stand on its own where it has become part of a line.

25 MR. JOSSE: Precisely.

Page 22546

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask the interpreters what "napomena" means.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour, "napomena" means "remark,

3 note, or NB, nota bene," one of the three.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. And then we -- I do understand that's

5 a note written by Mr. Halilovic in which he says something in reaction to

6 what -- to this transcript.

7 Mr. Tieger.

8 MR. TIEGER: It seems to me that we're engaged in and now pursuing

9 further an exercise which can only be deemed problematic from my point of

10 view, and that's that we've essentially re-opened the examination-in-chief

11 and not -- and now -- not by asking the witness to address issues that

12 were not sufficiently covered earlier that he knows about but by asking

13 him to comment on --

14 JUDGE ORIE: On the comments.

15 MR. TIEGER: Yes, correct.


17 Mr. Josse, put very specific questions to the witness in this

18 respect.

19 MR. JOSSE: Yes, Your Honour. I'm almost there.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

21 MR. JOSSE: This is the last question on this topic. Clearly, if

22 objection is taken to it, then no doubt the Court will hear about it.

23 Q. But the question is, Mr. Kecmanovic: Can you give any explanation

24 as -- assuming it to be correct, as to why the Presidency never discussed

25 this issue of population movement again?

Page 22547

1 A. I think that that is probably the essence of what Halilovic wants

2 to say, that although at the previous meeting he opened up the problem of

3 the population exchange, that the Presidency did not discuss it. Now, I

4 can confirm that there were no such discussions and -- at least, not when

5 I was present, but as you can see, I was not always invited to attend.

6 However, the explanation lies in the fact that the Muslim leadership had

7 two lines, and that has been the case to the present day. One line or

8 course or option advocated - I don't know what expression to use and not

9 to be misunderstood - some sort of federalisation of Bosnia, which is more

10 or less what the Dayton Accords did. So to continue along those lines and

11 assert that line. And another line or course to which Halilovic belonged

12 - and I can confirm that by quoting a number of other examples - he

13 advocated a sort of situation which was in the communist period -- sort of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina we had during the communist era, and that's why I think

15 Halilovic on several occasions advocated such a position was later

16 replaced by Izetbegovic and the leaders of the SDA.

17 MR. JOSSE: I'm going to move on to another topic, but I --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


20 Q. You were asked a number of questions about the division of

21 Sarajevo. The fourth variant that you talked about in the course of your

22 evidence in chief when Mr. Stewart asked you questions, did that envisage

23 - and it may be a matter of semantics - a division or transformation of

24 Sarajevo?

25 A. Division, transformation, regionalisation, federalisation; those

Page 22548

1 are all expressions, terms which were used in our political communications

2 on a daily basis. They intertwined, intermingled. There was no strict

3 differentiation and distinction as to what each of these words meant.

4 Now, in the third -- or rather, the fourth variant that was accepted by

5 both sides was that in the centre of town there should be an

6 extraterritorial area. That was the part of town with the joint

7 institutions, because we counted upon joint institutions on a state level

8 representing all three sides. The rest of the city of Sarajevo it was

9 planned to be a prolongation of ethnically territorial areas. Of course

10 not territorial pure territories but territories where the majority

11 population was one of the three ethnicities. And I remember well that

12 Bascarsija was mentioned, which is the Stari Grad municipality, the old

13 city municipality, which is where I lived, that that was predominantly

14 inhabited by Muslims and that that should be conjoined to the ethnic

15 Muslim area. Of course I would never have made such a proposal had that

16 implied ethnic cleansing because that would have meant that I would have

17 been expelled from my own flat. It was just a question of majority. We

18 were talking about majority population. And along the fringes of

19 Sarajevo, the outside suburbs, they were predominantly inhabited by the

20 Serbs. There's an exit to Sarajevo called Stupska Petlja, which

21 traditionally was inhabited by Serbs mostly, and that Stupska Petlja

22 junction was supposed to be a link to the entity canton or enclave or

23 whatever expression you like to use. We used the expression "entity" at

24 the time. But it was to be a link between that Croatian part and the town

25 itself, the town proper. So that was what that proposal was about, more

Page 22549

1 or less.

2 Q. My last area of re-examination also relates to Sarajevo. This

3 morning you were being asked about your knowledge of Serb shelling of the

4 city, and at one point you sought to elaborate on an answer that you had

5 just given, and you said: "If I might be allowed, just to say as an

6 illustration of the unclear situation from the Sarajevo sources. For

7 example --" and at that point you were stopped by the learned Presiding

8 Judge. Do you remember what you were going to say? And if so, could you

9 tell the Chamber.

10 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

12 MR. TIEGER: I mean -- there was a lengthy discussion. There were

13 questions asked that were focussed on particular areas. The witness was

14 stopped from continuing an elaboration of where he was going for a reason

15 by the Court. This seems to be nothing more or less than an attempt to

16 circumvent the Court's decision at that time.

17 MR. JOSSE: Well, my recollection was Your Honour said that he'd

18 been entitled to return to it in due course in any event. Your Honour --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if -- I told the witness that if there would be

20 any matter he would like to add to his testimony -- that's not the same as

21 what you're doing at this moment, Mr. Josse. You said: Please tell us

22 what you have on your mind. If you would have asked him at the end: Is

23 there anything you thought important enough, but let's not --

24 MR. JOSSE: Well, I submit strongly that I've done nothing

25 improper. What I've done is perfectly proper re-examination. My only

Page 22550

1 alternative --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's invite the witness to answer.

3 You're asked by Mr. Josse to -- when I interrupted you this

4 morning and when you said you would like to explain something -- where I

5 said if you would like to do that at the end you're entitled to do so,

6 please do so.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I don't remember whether

8 it was that or something else. It was -- the examination this morning was

9 rather taxing. It's difficult for me to find my way when it comes to

10 short answers. I think I was trying to explain a misunderstanding there

11 with the Prosecutor -- or rather, I felt that we hadn't understood each

12 other, what it means in the text when I say that Sarajevo was showered

13 with shells from the hills, and when on the other hand I mention a

14 superior artillery and then I say on the other side that I cannot compare

15 the forces and strength on the two sides and the effects of their power.

16 All I had was an insight into one side. I didn't know what the effects of

17 the firing from the town was and that I couldn't assess who had the

18 superiority and greater strength and power there.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kecmanovic, that's all what you said. I read to

20 you literally how it happened.

21 I said -- you asked: "If I might be allowed just to say as an

22 illustration of the unclear situation from the Sarajevo sources. For

23 example --" and then I interrupted you and I told you that if at the end

24 of your testimony there are matters which you thought important enough to

25 tell us, that you would be given an opportunity. So whether it will now

Page 22551

1 be this example you had in mind, an illustration, or whether it's anything

2 else, please tell it now but don't repeat what you said before because

3 we've carefully listened to it. Go ahead, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. With your help

5 you've managed to jog my memory and I remember what I wanted to say, and

6 it is this: I had in my mind the very controversial information that went

7 around town with respect to the events that were taking place. On the one

8 hand you had media sources on the Serb and Muslim side; that's one thing.

9 And secondly, you had the interpretations of different people who, with

10 the authority -- with authority and knowledge of the situation could tell

11 us something about what was going on behind the scenes. And I have here

12 in mind some military officials who were in the BH army, for example, and

13 some members of the paramilitary formations whom I as a person who grew up

14 in the town knew. Some of my friends from my street, the street I lived

15 in, and from my childhood days who had followed the wrong path and become

16 involved with these units. And so, for example, I had occasion to hear

17 later on that the shooting -- the firing at the rally in front of the

18 Assembly did not come from the Holiday Inn Hotel, for example, but as I

19 was told by these people, they -- you had specials shooting from Sarajevo.

20 And I remember the formulation. They said "and." So not "only" but

21 "and" was the word used. And many years later I came across in Belgrade

22 some newspaper from Sarajevo where this same man said something for the

23 Bosniak press, and he claimed that that information was very correct. And

24 he repeated what he told me privately as a man whom I trusted and whom I

25 knew very well. So that's just one example. There were many other such

Page 22552

1 examples.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

3 MR. JOSSE: Thank you for your perseverance, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you, Mr. Kecmanovic.

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE ORIE: First just the following. You explained to us that

7 the expanded Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina was actually -- took the

8 form of the Presidency being expanded by inviting guests. Could you give

9 us any legal instrument that defines this or where it, for example, says

10 the Presidency is allowed to invite non-Presidency members to its meetings

11 in a state of war or -- I mean, is there any legal instrument that -- yes,

12 Mr. --

13 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, but it -- I -- just mention

14 of the state of war may build in an ambiguity that is potentially

15 confusing since the witness of course mentioned the -- what he referred to

16 as an expanded Presidency before the state of war was declared and then a

17 War Presidency after that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have to check that. Then I have misunderstood

19 that.

20 Could you explain those guests being allowed to attend the

21 meetings of the Presidency in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Was that during a

22 state of war or was it even before that?

23 A. This was even before the state of war was declared. They were

24 never referred to as guests, but by titles. Prime Minister, Minister of

25 this or that. The composition varied, although there were certain

Page 22553

1 individuals who almost regularly attended. A moment ago I mentioned, for

2 instance, that on certain occasions the military was represented by the

3 defence minister, Mr. Jerko Doko. And on other occasions, still in the

4 same period, it was Mr. Sefer Halilovic. Some of the sessions were

5 likewise attended by the Minister of the Interior Alija Delimustafic, and

6 others not. At other sessions the police was simply not represented.

7 Prime Minister attended most frequently, then to a lesser extent the

8 president of the Assembly, and so on and so forth.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you explained exactly who were the guests. My

10 question was focussing on, which you may certainly have understood, where

11 we find this in constitutional terms, in terms of legal instruments that

12 create that situation, or was it just -- or was it just practice?

13 A. It is possible that a provision of that kind was contained in the

14 rules of the procedure of the Presidency. It is only my assumption that

15 it was specifically provided for, but it is also possible that it was just

16 practice, because some of the things could simply not be discussed in the

17 absence of the relevant minister. Later on when the situation changed,

18 those individuals became members in their own right, full members.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And that was when the state of war was declared?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 JUDGE ORIE: And do we have any legal instrument which indicates

22 what the number of the members of the Presidency would be after the state

23 of war would have been declared or to be recruited from where? Is that

24 also just practice or is it law?

25 A. As regards the composition of the War Presidency, I am almost

Page 22554

1 certain that this was provided for in a legal instrument, but it wouldn't

2 come amiss for me to mention that that kind of document -- the people in

3 the Presidency, with the exception of Mirko Pejanovic, were not really

4 familiar with such statutory provisions. The nuances, the differences

5 between the state of war and what preceded it were very fine. There was a

6 thin line between the two, and he was the one in the Presidency who could

7 lecture on the exact differences at various levels between two states. He

8 was the one who had been involved in these issues even -- even before,

9 from the political perspective. So he was familiar with the legal aspect

10 of it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Then another matter: You described

12 the information you had available when you were in Sarajevo. You could

13 follow the media on both sides and you got contradictory information. You

14 talked about radio. You were talking about sources of news. Radio was

15 there, newspapers were there in Sarajevo, from both sides?

16 A. Not newspapers from the other side. Only the radio.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Only the radio. Television from both sides?

18 A. When we had electricity, yes, we could watch television. During

19 the shortages, we could listen to the programmes from both sides on the

20 radio.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any international broadcasting you could

22 receive?

23 A. Occasionally, yes. People were particularly interested in

24 learning what was going on outside, outside Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Would that also include foreign television?

Page 22555

1 A. No. This was not possible. This had not even been possible

2 before the war in Sarajevo.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Not even satellite, no satellite antennas which, from

4 what I understand, was --

5 A. There were very few people who were able to use such equipment

6 before the war. Satellite telephone, for instance, was brought by Fikret

7 Abdic in the Presidency. He was the only one who had satellite telephone.

8 Others, including the president of the Presidency, did not have such

9 equipment.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Did the Presidency have access to satellite

11 television? I mean, there are a lot of public channels which can be -- I

12 would take it even be easier received than to use satellite telephone?

13 A. In the building of the Presidency, there was a meeting room where

14 press conferences were held, and this is where journalists often sat.

15 This was the location where they would normally gather and work, and this

16 is where members of the Presidency appeared before TV cameras, either

17 individually or as represented by one of us. One of us would be in charge

18 of informing the media of what was going on in the presidency on that day.

19 But because Stjepan Kljuic --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You are shifting now from receiving to

21 broadcasting, which is of course different. What I would like to know is

22 if there was any possibility in the Presidency building or at least in any

23 place accessible to Presidency members or assistants to have access to

24 CNN, whatever international --

25 A. No. No.

Page 22556

1 JUDGE ORIE: Then my next question would be -- no. One follow-up

2 question: The Chamber received quite some evidence, including you giving

3 evidence, on how this was a war in which the media played an important

4 role. Now, this was technically, from what I understand, not something

5 very spectacular, to receive satellite television. Could you explain how

6 the Presidency would ignore this, could I say, very vital point of

7 receiving information on how the ongoing conflict was perceived by the

8 outside world.

9 A. You're right. It does seem rather strange. However, the link

10 with the outside world were the members of UNPROFOR who were in Sarajevo

11 at the time, it was an unusual link, I admit, and it could not really

12 compensate for what you're asking about, but that's how it was.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you told us that when you were -- when you

14 arrived in Pale, that in that waiting-room, or at least in that room, you

15 said: "I wasn't sitting there waiting. I wrote, read all the newspapers

16 I didn't have an opportunity of doing in Sarajevo." Which newspapers did

17 you have in mind at that moment? So that's once you arrived in Pale.

18 A. I didn't say I had read all the newspapers, but the time that I

19 was supposed to spend waiting for my departure for Belgrade, I used that

20 time to read the papers. And it was quite refreshing, because what we had

21 in Sarajevo was reduced to a form of pamphlet or leaflets. And this was

22 an opportunity for me to get access to Belgrade-based media, because at

23 the time it was only Glas Srpski paper that was published in Republika

24 Srpska. But at any rate I had an opportunity to raid the Belgrade-based

25 papers which I had not read for quite some time, such as Politika, Daily,

Page 22557

1 and others, and Nin, the weekly paper.

2 JUDGE ORIE: No international papers?

3 A. No. There were no international newspapers. At least, I couldn't

4 find them there.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And later in Belgrade, could you tell us what the

6 situation was there as far as access to foreign press and foreign radio

7 and television.

8 A. The situation was much better there. The situation was peaceful,

9 after all, and I had lots of contacts with foreign diplomats who were

10 still in Belgrade at the time. I talked to people and I had access to

11 various sources because the situation was almost normal. The public

12 opinion, of course, was divided regarding the Bosnian war, but it was all

13 very inspiring in terms of exchange of thoughts and positions. I spent

14 the entire first week of my stay there in hospital, so I must admit that

15 initially I did not follow the media very much. I spent most of my time

16 with my family, but I tried to follow the events in Sarajevo as much as I

17 could because part of my family was still there.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take you back for one second to Sarajevo

19 again first, of my questions. Radio, you said, was there. Isn't it true

20 that on most of radio receivers you could easily receive whatever is

21 broadcasted by the BBC or by CNN radio programmes on -- not a -- I'm not

22 an expert, but perhaps not a medium-wave but on long-wave or short-wave.

23 I mean, you don't need any satellite, you don't need any special

24 equipment; you just tune in.

25 A. Yes.

Page 22558

1 JUDGE ORIE: Was this not done or ...

2 A. Paradoxically, I had had more opportunity to do that before I

3 became active in the Presidency. Once I became politically active, I

4 spent my entire day in the Presidency, from early morning to late in the

5 evening, and I didn't have enough time. So in a way, I was left -- less

6 informed once I joined the Presidency. Of course, I knew more about other

7 things. Generally speaking I was focussed on current affairs in the

8 Presidency, and I also had my family on my mind. I didn't have much time

9 for other things.

10 Technically speaking, you are right, it was possible at the time,

11 and my friends or members of my family would tell me from time to time

12 what they had heard, and this is something that I had done regularly

13 before I joined the Presidency. But you have to bear in mind that very

14 often in the evening we did not have electricity because of the blackouts,

15 so we could listen to the radio only on batteries and the sound was not

16 very good. And generally speaking, we did not have quality system of

17 information.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers. I have no further

19 answers [sic].

20 Any questions raised by questions by the Bench? Not Mr. Tieger,

21 not Mr. Josse?

22 Then this concludes your testimony in this court, Mr. Kecmanovic.

23 I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and to answer,

24 I could even say extensively, all the questions that were put to you by

25 both the parties and the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

Page 22559

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have a

2 small request. I'm leaving The Hague tomorrow and I will no longer have

3 access to the Detention Unit. May I say good-bye to Mr. Krajisnik?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 MR. JOSSE: I'm aware that I need to seek numbers for the two

9 documents I've just introduced.


11 MR. JOSSE: I would have thought two numbers would be --

12 JUDGE ORIE: The one number assigned to the extract from the book

13 "The Fall of Yugoslavia," the -- that was Ed Vulliamy, got D157. The next

14 one, that is the three pages of minutes of the Presidency of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina 20th of June gets D --


17 JUDGE ORIE: 158, Mr. Registrar. I take it then the last one is

18 the extract from Mr. Halilovic's book, would get D159.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me.


23 MR. TIEGER: Small housekeeping matter. "Fall of Yugoslavia," I

24 know you meant to say Misha Glenny.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, that's Glenny -- no, Vulliamy was only --

Page 22560

1 MR. JOSSE: Vulliamy was P1151, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was -- yes, yes. I'm confusing the

3 literature that is presented to this Chamber.

4 MR. JOSSE: Could I ask some clarification. P1148, the notebook,

5 is it the intention of either the Prosecution or the Chamber to exhibit

6 the whole notebook or only selected pages? If so, which pages so that we

7 can consider -- the Defence can consider the situation?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger?

9 MR. TIEGER: The whole notebook, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The whole notebook. Although we have seen only small

11 portions of it.

12 MR. TIEGER: I -- that's true, but first of all it -- well, it is

13 a document that should be received in its entirety. We had discussions

14 about the entirety of the Cutileiro Plan. I made reference to the general

15 contents of that notebook, and, believe me, had time permitted, we would

16 have spent time on quite a number of pages of that document. So it's --

17 the fact that we didn't refer to it repeatedly during the course of the

18 cross-examination is only an unfortunate reflection of an attempt to meet

19 the time constraints.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, would it be a practical solution that we

21 -- first of all, for your information, this Chamber does not start at

22 7.15, once we are out of this courtroom, to start immediately to read the

23 whole of the notebooks, and until now we have focussed on the portions

24 that were presented to us. We have quite a lot of things to do. Would it

25 be quite a good idea to see to what extent this notebook in the weeks to

Page 22561

1 come still plays a role and then delay the final discussion up to the end

2 on whether the whole of the notebook or only those portions that were

3 referred to have been mentioned? Because otherwise we might have repeated

4 discussions on this is relevant but also in relation to that, so therefore

5 that should be there as well but next week still another portion to come?

6 MR. JOSSE: Yes, Your Honour. I was going to ask that I be

7 permitted some time to consider the situation and discuss it with

8 Mr. Stewart. I'm bound to say that I've similar observations so far as

9 P1149 is concerned, where I -- which is the expert's report, where I

10 suspect that the Defence would like the whole document in, it now having

11 been referred to by the Prosecution. But again, let me speak, if I may --


13 MR. JOSSE: -- to Mr. Stewart, and perhaps we can return to this

14 issue.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because it's -- I can imagine it's -- I have not

16 read it yet, so it's -- then let's then go through the documents which

17 received numbers during the testimony of Mr. Kecmanovic.

18 We start with P1145. I'll go through them one by one. That's the

19 intercept; P1146, another intercept; P1147, article from Oslobodjenje,

20 there's no English version of that yet, Mr. Tieger. Is that correct? Or

21 is there -- or has it been provided? Let me just look in my bundles.

22 MR. TIEGER: I think you may be right, Your Honour. I'm sorry.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you please check whether there's an

24 English version.

25 MR. TIEGER: Yes, of course.

Page 22562

1 JUDGE ORIE: P1148 -- are we going to -- have you any suggestion

2 whether we say it's pending admission or whether we provisionally admit it

3 and give an opportunity to the Defence to make further submissions as

4 to --

5 MR. JOSSE: I would invite the Court to say it's pending

6 admission. It's --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that's P114.

8 MR. TIEGER: I think it's the same thing. It amounts to the same

9 thing, in essence, Your Honour.

10 MR. JOSSE: The reason, Your Honour, is that will remind the

11 Defence --

12 JUDGE ORIE: It will be on our list as pending, which is always --

13 MR. JOSSE: It's for our benefit, frankly, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber tries to get rid of as many pending

15 issues, but I do understand your position.

16 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then P1149, that's the expert report, that's also a

18 pending matter?

19 MR. JOSSE: I would suggest the same, please.

20 MR. TIEGER: I'm not seeking its admission, so I don't know in

21 what sense it's pending. That's the problem.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I thought you were. The expert report with

23 Dr. Kecmanovic.

24 MR. TIEGER: No, I presented the witness with excerpts from it,

25 which he verified. I think that's quite sufficient.

Page 22563

1 JUDGE ORIE: It's quite sufficient. So then it doesn't -- does it

2 need a number, then, portions being read?

3 MR. JOSSE: Well --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, the Defence was considering to -- what about

5 now establishing that the Prosecution did not seek to do any more than to

6 put to the witness a few quotes of that report without tendering the

7 report as such in evidence. So therefore, it doesn't need a P number, as

8 a matter of fact in that the Defence considers whether it should tender

9 it. Mr. Josse, you're --

10 MR. JOSSE: Well, I can't really argue with that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then P1149 now is available. At least,

12 Mr. Josse, you have the advantage that it's already copied and it's

13 already translated, so there's no problems in that respect.

14 P1150, interview with Kecmanovic, the Tanjug; P1151, that's the

15 Vulliamy excerpt.

16 So we then have already four -- we'll admit P1145, P1146, P1150,

17 P1151. 1147, 1148 pending. And the number 1149 becoming free again and

18 perhaps ever in the future getting a D number.

19 Then we go to D157, D158, and D159, the first being the extract of

20 the Glenny book, "The Fall of Yugoslavia"; the second one the pages of the

21 minutes of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina; and D159, extract of

22 Mr. Halilovic's book.

23 Any objections?

24 MR. TIEGER: No, except to note this, Your Honour: That with

25 respect to the re-direct examination and the admission or introduction of

Page 22564

1 those documents, it's -- it's obvious the handicap the Prosecution had in

2 that circumstance. Essentially Defence was good in accurately noting that

3 -- in asking for leave to open it up and then presenting documents that

4 we had only just seen that were in B/C/S. So I mention that because it

5 may turn out that there are other documents that bear on that and that we

6 may be presenting to the Court at a later stage that -- and I want to make

7 that clear at this point.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So D157 up till D159 are admitted into

9 evidence.

10 Mr. Josse, and if any further initiatives come from the

11 Prosecution due to the late disclosure of these documents, we'll see what

12 happens and we'll decide on the matter. Yes.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have to add to that, and Mr. Registrar so

15 kindly reminded me, that before we finally admit D158 and D159, of course

16 the translations should be there.

17 MR. JOSSE: I'd assumed that to be the position.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I was inadvertently not expressing that.

19 Yes, Mr. Tieger.

20 MR. TIEGER: There was -- excuse me, Your Honour. Very briefly,

21 there was a discussion with the registrar about the submission of the

22 requested Presidency sessions. They're here and they can be

23 constructively submitted at this point and then handed over, depending on

24 the time we have available.


Page 22565

1 Mr. Registrar, I did understand that they were received. Is there

2 a number now for -- no. I see that in the index the exhibit numbers are

3 reflected but not all of them have yet an exhibit number.

4 Mr. Registrar, do you have any suggestion on how to fill those

5 empty boxes?

6 THE REGISTRAR: We can give them the next numbers available, Your

7 Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Another way of doing it is to give the whole of

9 the bundle one number. Then we have some repetition, but I mean the

10 copying is done already so it doesn't help us out in that respect. The

11 only -- I think it would be best to give it one number and then always

12 refer to the date, and if there are more meetings on one date, but I see

13 already that there are not -- yes, there's only 1st of September, 1992, we

14 have two sessions. So the parties should clearly indicate then which one,

15 if it's about the 1st of September, and those two sessions have no number

16 yet. That's -- let's -- let me give it some thought. Let me discuss it

17 with Mr. Registrar so that we do not take the wrong decision. A number

18 will be later assigned.

19 Any objection to the admission of evidence, because there are some

20 new elements in it, Mr. Josse, so apart from the numbers it will get.

21 MR. JOSSE: I can't see how the Defence could possibly object.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

23 Then we'll adjourn until tomorrow.

24 Mr. Josse, I take it that there are no further problems in getting

25 the next witness here to testify?

Page 22566

1 MR. JOSSE: He is in the Detention Unit.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm aware of that.

3 MR. JOSSE: I've had access to him. I'm -- understand that I'm

4 going to have -- be allowed further access to him this afternoon and this

5 evening. I'm going to have to be ready to call him tomorrow morning, Your

6 Honour, it's as simple as that.


8 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00 same courtroom.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of

11 April, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.