Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22942

1 Tuesday, 25 April 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Before we start the testimony of you, Mr. Krajisnik, there are a

11 couple of procedural matters which, as I understood, the Defence

12 preferably would deal with prior to starting the examination of

13 Mr. Krajisnik as a witness.

14 Mr. Krajisnik, I take it that you are informed, although most

15 likely not in much detail, about a decision the Chamber has delivered

16 yesterday. There is one part which is of primary importance to you

17 personally, Mr. Krajisnik, that is the ruling of the Chamber on the matter

18 of contact between counsel and you then being a witness during your

19 testimony. And since you have not taken the oath yet and if there is any

20 need to briefly discuss the matter with counsel, we should rather give you

21 an opportunity now before having asked you to make the solemn declaration.

22 Communication is, as always with witnesses, communication is prohibited.

23 You should not speak with anyone with respect to the testimony you have

24 given then or you're about to give. And for that reason, your two

25 privileged communication telephone lines will be interrupted from the 25th

Page 22943

1 of April, that's today, until the end of your testimony.

2 But of course there could be an urgent reason that you would need

3 to contact counsel during the course of your testimony, so the Chamber can

4 then make an exception. But of course, you cannot address counsel to

5 apply for such an exception. Under the circumstances, if you wish to

6 initiate contact with counsel during your testimony, Mr. Krajisnik, you

7 should write a brief note addressed to the Chamber directly stating the

8 reasons for your wish to contact counsel. You can give that note to a

9 security officer, that -- whether you are in the Detention Unit or here at

10 the Tribunal. So that could be a security officer present in court.

11 These brief notes -- oh, there seems to be a problem with the translation.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a -- well, now we have many -- if

14 you would allow me to finish just this portion, then we'll briefly see how

15 we can resolve the technical problems.

16 So you are then supposed to write a brief note, give it to a

17 security officer, then it will be sent for immediate translation so that

18 the Chamber is informed right away on the content of that note.

19 Therefore, you are also invited to keep it as brief as possible because

20 the longer it is, the longer the translation will take. The original note

21 and the translation will be provided to us. The Chamber will then inform

22 the parties that the Chamber has received a request for communication,

23 although not revealing the content of this note. And then we will decide

24 on whether you will be allowed to communicate with the Defence team or

25 members of the Defence team, and we'll issue instructions concerning the

Page 22944

1 communication.

2 That's, therefore, Mr. Krajisnik, will be the procedure if you

3 need to be in touch with counsel.

4 Before I now continue, I'd like to see whether we can resolve the

5 technical problems. The French channel has some unpleasant -- yes,

6 there's quite some rumble on the French channel. And then Judge Canivell

7 has no -- has on his left screen no image.

8 The matter has been resolved by a -- not by a technician. The

9 rumble on the French channel is still there. It could be just one

10 headphone. If some attention could be paid to it that would be

11 appreciated. I'll just look at whether on my French channel it's -- must

12 be -- it's -- I have no problem on the French channel, so it must be --

13 okay.

14 All the technical matters having been resolved, I have a short

15 list of procedural matters. The parties have received a copy of my, I

16 would say, agenda, five items on it, procedural matters.

17 Before we start with that, is there any other matter to be added

18 to this short agenda? I see Mr. Harmon nodding no.

19 MR. STEWART: Not on that particular agenda.


21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Any other matter which you would like to prefer to

23 deal with first?

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I then deal before one moves on to

25 what I might call those housekeeping procedural-type matters in that list.

Page 22945


2 MR. STEWART: May I make a couple of submissions, Your Honour.

3 First of all, in relation to the order generally which we received

4 yesterday evening, we can see a number of points which will concern

5 Mr. Krajisnik which it is only sensible to have properly discussed between

6 him and his counsel before he starts his evidence. It's -- I don't know

7 exactly how long it would take in the nature of things, one doesn't know,

8 Your Honour. But it's bound to be more than just a very few minutes,

9 that's -- based on very long experience of discussions between counsel and

10 Mr. Krajisnik, that's bound to be the position, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that most of the issues, since they are --

12 well, I would say there are limited changes to the previous two after

13 that, you have anticipated a kind of decision going approximately in this

14 direction?

15 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, it's a mixture. We anticipated

16 some things, some things we didn't, and so on.


18 MR. STEWART: Some things we would have liked differently, so the

19 usual mixture.

20 JUDGE ORIE: But you would need some time?

21 MR. STEWART: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You say more than a few minutes?

23 MR. STEWART: It will be inevitably, Your Honour. We do -- after

24 all, we do --

25 JUDGE ORIE: 20 minutes?

Page 22946

1 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, certainly it can't be

2 significantly less than that, Your Honour.


4 MR. STEWART: I'm not asking for hours, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, on one particular aspect, and this is

7 the question of communication, just perhaps useful to make it clear so

8 that Mr. Krajisnik can hear this as well straight away. We had

9 anticipated this, but we'd anticipated wrongly as it happens.

10 We had discussed and specifically indicated to Mr. Krajisnik

11 yesterday how we thought he would communicate a need to talk to us. And

12 we had suggested -- after all, we had to answer the question from our own

13 common sense and anticipation. Your Honour, we had suggested that he

14 would simply say in open court in everybody's hearing if he wanted to

15 communicate with us and then would publicly say -- well, as little as was

16 necessary to indicate why he wished to communicate with us.

17 Now --

18 JUDGE ORIE: We have chosen this procedure, Mr. Stewart, in order

19 to give full respect to client/counsel privilege. It could be there is

20 some matter which should not be heard by the Prosecution; therefore, we

21 introduced this system in which the Prosecution of course is only aware

22 that there is a request. But if you would suggest if Mr. Krajisnik would

23 address us in open court and tell us: I'd like to have communication with

24 counsel for those and those reasons, of course it would come down

25 approximately to the same. So I'm -- I'm quite willing to consider with

Page 22947

1 the -- with my fellow Judges to see whether if Mr. Krajisnik has no

2 problems in giving information about the reasons why he wants to see

3 counsel or why he wants to speak to counsel, that we give him an

4 opportunity where it's immediately translated so that we don't have to

5 wait for the written translation. We'll consider that.

6 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, that may very well -- thank you

7 for that, Your Honour, because that may very well be an immediately

8 flexible, practical approach and save trouble --

9 JUDGE ORIE: It could be an alternative procedure.

10 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider that.

12 MR. STEWART: We -- we specifically, of course, reminded

13 Mr. Krajisnik that if we had adopted the procedure which I just outlined,

14 that it would be public, it would be communicated to the Prosecution, and

15 therefore he should bear that in mind in what he said.

16 Your Honour, perhaps one might bear in mind this, that so far as -

17 and no disrespect intended, Your Honour - but so far as Mr. Krajisnik, or

18 we on his behalf, had misgivings about what he should communicate to the

19 Prosecution, with the greatest respect, the same misgivings might apply in

20 relation communication to the Trial Chamber, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand.

22 MR. STEWART: We are not particularly happy, I do want to make

23 that clear on Mr. Krajisnik's behalf, with the aspect of the procedure

24 Your Honour outlined where a communication goes from Mr. Krajisnik to the

25 Trial Chamber and then according to the order which is made at the moment

Page 22948

1 is then kept between Mr. Krajisnik and the Trial Chamber and not

2 communicated to even the Defence.

3 So, Your Honour, most of the time, if Your Honours would approach

4 it in the flexible manner that has just been considered in the last few

5 minutes, most of --

6 JUDGE ORIE: We will consider that.

7 MR. STEWART: -- We would have a preference for Mr. Krajisnik

8 simply to make that announcement there and then in brief terms in court.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will consider that.

10 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- I will then move now to the short agenda.

12 First of all, we have the submission of the requested Nielsen

13 source material. After no agreement was reached by the parties regarding

14 the submission of that source material, this Chamber has on the 27th of

15 March has ordered the Prosecution to submit the communications received by

16 the Presidency. The Chamber informed the Defence that they would have two

17 weeks from the date of submission of these documents to raise any

18 objection.

19 Mr. Stewart, you've stated on the 11th of April that the two weeks

20 that I had indicated for a response from the Defence have expired, and I

21 announced that we would decide on the matter but we'll not receive that

22 material this afternoon, and that was on the 11th of April. The materials

23 were not yet submitted. The two weeks for the Defence to object have not

24 yet begun to run.

25 And, Mr. Harmon, I would like to invite you to submit the Nielsen

Page 22949

1 material and then remind the Defence that they have two weeks from today

2 to raise any objections.

3 Mr. Tieger.

4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. This was a matter addressed I

5 think at the last court session. At that time Prosecution indicated that

6 we had available the binders in question.


8 MR. TIEGER: We're prepared to tender them, but I think we ran out

9 of time. The Defence also has the materials -- has had the materials for

10 quite some time included in the three binders I believe which -- which

11 contain not only these materials but the additional materials to which

12 we've made reference during the discussions of this matter about this

13 matter. So we have the materials in court, we can give them to the Court

14 now --

15 JUDGE ORIE: We'd like you to submit them today and the two weeks

16 start from now on.

17 MR. TIEGER: Good. We'll provide them to the registrar at the

18 first opportunity.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have -- as the second item on our agenda, we

20 have the exhibits introduced during the testimony of Witness D24. We had

21 the minutes of two Presidency Sessions. These minutes were tendered by

22 the Defence on the 10th of April. That is Session 21C dated the 2nd of

23 August, 1992. And Session 32 dated the 29th of September, 1992.

24 These items, as far as we remember, have not been assigned exhibit

25 numbers. When these exhibits were tendered, the Defence has stated that

Page 22950

1 the documents were obtained by investigators working on behalf of

2 Mr. Krajisnik and promised that it would do its best to make inquiries as

3 to the provenance of the documents.

4 The parties also need to be given an opportunity to raise

5 objections to items introduced and to make submissions on which items, if

6 any, should be admitted under seal. The Chamber stated that it would

7 decide on matters of admitting under seal and referred specifically

8 to D170, which is a letter from Krajisnik and Mr. -- Mr. Krajisnik and

9 Mr. Karadzic to Ambassador Cutileiro.

10 First of all, Mr. Registrar, could you assign exhibit numbers to

11 the two Presidency Sessions minutes.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D174 for the August 1992, Your

13 Honours, and D175 for September 1992.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

15 Could the Defence inform the Chamber, meanwhile, by the provenance

16 of these documents apart from that they were obtained by an investigator

17 working on behalf of the Defence team?

18 MR. JOSSE: I can't provide any further information --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

20 MR. JOSSE: -- at this moment.

21 Your Honour, I wouldn't go so far as to say that I promised.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's --

23 MR. JOSSE: But we will continue to try and answer this particular

24 inquiry.

25 JUDGE ORIE: What is, in your expectation, would be the time in

Page 22951

1 which you could perform that task? I mean, if we leave you without

2 dead-lines, I know -- I'm just as human as you are. You know that --

3 MR. JOSSE: The answer to that question is -- if I focus my mind

4 on it I don't need very long, because I'm going to either get some help --

5 useful information or not. So a week would suffice, frankly. I -- as a

6 result of the e-mail exchange yesterday, I asked for it to be done again.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Should we give you time until Friday next week?

8 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Your Honour, this is a first of a number of

9 matters that might require discussion with our client. So that's the one

10 caveat. Let's assume that it doesn't and that we get the information from

11 the investigators and I feel I don't need to discuss it with

12 Mr. Krajisnik. If I do, I'll mention that to the Court. And it will,

13 frankly, have to wait. I hope that's satisfactory.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you first focus on -- I take it that

15 you know who the investigator is. We're just asking about provenance

16 without any further comments.

17 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Did you get it from whom and then you have the next

19 chain in the -- so but there are --

20 MR. JOSSE: There aren't many candidates, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then until next week Friday --

22 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- you have time to provide that information.

24 Then the next issue would be whether there are any objections to

25 exhibits and whether there are any submissions in respect of admitting --

Page 22952

1 admission under seal of those exhibits you've tendered through

2 Witness D24, Mr. Josse.

3 MR. JOSSE: Well, D170, I submit, does not need to be under seal.

4 JUDGE ORIE: D170 not under seal. Any other exhibits?

5 MR. JOSSE: The Court will have to excuse me. I don't have a list

6 in front of me.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. When could you get that information?

8 MR. JOSSE: Later today. I will not need to speak to

9 Mr. Krajisnik about that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We expect later today to give further -- to

11 receive further information as to whether there's any wish to -- for

12 protective measures in respect of any of these exhibits.

13 Mr. Harmon, as matters stand now, any objections? Or Mr. Tieger,

14 I don't know who to address.

15 MR. HARMON: We can defer, Your Honour, our objections, if any,

16 until we hear from the Defence further on this matter. I need to check on

17 one item on these --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, Mr. Josse will inform us by the end of

19 this day.

20 MR. HARMON: We will well --

21 JUDGE ORIE: You will inform us by tomorrow -- oh, you will inform

22 us by today.

23 Then perhaps no need to say that -- and of course we could not

24 expect any -- any positions to be taken by the Prosecution on documents

25 that were not yet translated, missing English translations for the Defence

Page 22953

1 are D171, D173, the two Presidency Session minutes which meanwhile have

2 received D174 and D175. And there's no B/C/S translation yet for D170 you

3 would like to be admitted under seal, Mr. Josse, is that --

4 MR. JOSSE: No, I said it doesn't need to be admitted under seal.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I'm -- I'm sorry, it's the beginning of the

6 week. Let's blame the beginning of the week for it. You said "not under

7 seal," but a translation is still not there. Is that --

8 MR. JOSSE: That's the position.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

10 Then for the Prosecution P1166 needs to be translated.

11 MR. HARMON: Yes, we're aware of that, Your Honour. It's being

12 translated as we speak, and we will have the translation, we hope, within

13 a week.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

15 MR. HARMON: Same applies, Your Honour, to D1168, which is noted

16 on the agenda.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- the transcript now says and I heard you also

18 saying "D1168," but it should be --

19 MR. HARMON: P1168.

20 JUDGE ORIE: P1168, yes. This is as far as the exhibits

21 introduced during the testimony of Witness D24 is concerned.

22 Then --

23 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I can deal with the matter now. The

24 registrar very efficiently has provided me with a list. I am very

25 grateful. The Defence submit that D171 and D173 should be under seal.

Page 22954


2 Then we'll hear from you, Mr. Harmon, about the confidential

3 character of D171 and D172 whether there's any objections.

4 MR. JOSSE: I said "173," Your Honour. 171 and 173.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I heard, and that's what I intended

6 to repeat but I misspoke.

7 Then Mr. Registrar has received the compact disk regarding the

8 Tuzla convoy but no number has yet been assigned. Mr. Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D176, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: D176. But we have not received yet any transcripts.

11 Are they being prepared or do they exist?

12 MR. HARMON: They do not exist, Your Honour. These are items that

13 were given to the Defence because the Defence felt these were important.

14 We don't believe the transcript is necessary.


16 What's the -- is it just the visual impression that --

17 MR. JOSSE: The position is as I previously stated and is rightly

18 summarised in the e-mail exchange of yesterday, namely, the Defence do not

19 consider it a worthwhile use of our resources to provide a transcript. I

20 regret to say the Chamber will have to watch this video in silence.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Well, that's not always bad to do

22 something in silence, Mr. Josse. We'll do that, so that means that

23 admission of D176 is limited to the images and does not include any sound.

24 It -- I'll not be tempted to do otherwise because I take it that it's not

25 understandable for me anyhow, so as it will not be for my colleagues.

Page 22955

1 Yes. Then the next issue is the double pension legislation. The

2 matter was raised during the testimony of Mr. Poplasen's testimony -- the

3 testimony of Mr. Poplasen. And we have requested the parties to submit

4 the text of the legislation from whatever side. On the 28th of March, the

5 Prosecution indicated that copies of two pieces of pension legislation had

6 been provided to the Defence, and we've given you - I think you it was

7 you, Mr. Josse - another week to discuss the matter with the accused. On

8 the 10th of April, you informally indicated that you were not ready yet at

9 that time to submit the legislation. And on the 17th of April, you

10 indicated that in a communication that you were translating relevant

11 sections of a different Republika Srpska statute and requested more time,

12 and the Prosecution has asked for the citation of this legislation. Yes.

13 MR. JOSSE: Well, more material on this subject arrived from

14 Bosnia last week. That, frankly, has not been looked at by any member of

15 our team for reasons which I hope are understandable. And I spent some

16 time, the earlier part of last week, discussing this with Mr. Krajisnik,

17 and I could -- I would be prepared to provide the citation of the

18 legislation that we believe is also applicable in the Federation. Having

19 said that, how far that will take matters, I don't know, and as I've

20 already just stated, the new material has not yet been looked at. I

21 repeat again what I said in my e-mail of yesterday, this is a subject

22 which our client takes a keen interest and would, no doubt, wish to

23 discuss with me.


25 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

Page 22956

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that you need more time. At

2 the same time, the Prosecution has provided some material.

3 Could we start by just deciding on the admission of the

4 Prosecution -- the material the Prosecution has provided. It's

5 legislation, it's not a very subjective matter, although, of course, it

6 needs interpretation. And let's also keep in mind that legislation and

7 pension benefits can have all kind of different reasons to be adopted.

8 I'm aware of pension legislation which not necessarily reflects a

9 situation of hard work, even if the period in time would be covered by

10 pension. So therefore, let's not make that perhaps the vital issue on the

11 matter. But of course we should look at it. But I then suggest that we

12 invite the Prosecution to submit whatever legislation they have and give

13 you some additional time to see whether the Defence would like to submit

14 other material on the same subject.

15 MR. JOSSE: Well, I've no objection to that, Your Honour. The

16 time-scale, though, is a difficulty, bearing in mind that Mr. Krajisnik is

17 going to be -- commence his evidence very shortly.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand, and perhaps that's one of the

19 issues you could briefly discuss with him.

20 At the same time -- first of all, in the interpretation of such

21 material of course you could say we could speak with Mr. Krajisnik at

22 length after he's finished his testimony. Of course you could ask

23 Mr. Krajisnik questions on the matter during his examination, even if you

24 would not be fully briefed we will hear what his position as far as this

25 legislation concerning this would be. So therefore without giving any

Page 22957

1 expectation as far as whether this would be such an expectational matter

2 which would create a need to discuss these kind of matters -- I mean,

3 we're talking about legislation, we're not talking about another witness

4 statement or testimony given at another moment or -- I mean, it's a piece

5 of legislation which is --

6 MR. JOSSE: I will try my best. As I already stated, I have no

7 objection to my learned friend's documents being handed to the Chamber.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon -- then as far as time is concerned, how

9 much time would you need to look at the new material? Would until the --

10 well, 9th of the May, would that be a suggestion to --

11 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.


13 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then the 9th of May is the dead-line given to the

15 Defence to submit any further material.

16 Mr. Harmon.

17 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

18 We have done the following. We have, based on Mr. Poplasen's

19 evidence referencing double pension legislation, we have gone to

20 legislation dealing with pensions in both the Federation and the

21 Republika Srpska.


23 MR. HARMON: They are extensive pieces of legislation. One

24 has 253 articles, one has 157 articles. We have not bothered translating

25 the complete set of legislation in both of the entities, nor have we made

Page 22958

1 copies of these. What we have done is we have identified the relevant

2 provision that was identified, first of all, by Mr. Poplasen in the

3 Federation legislation. And based on court inquiry during the colloquy

4 with the parties as to whether or not there was a equivalent provision in

5 the Republika Srpska legislation, we surveyed that legislation and

6 identified an equivalent, what we submit is an equivalent article, or

7 articles. So we have identified those, we have translated those, and we

8 will be prepared to submit copies of only those articles. If the Court

9 wishes, we can also make copies and submit untranslated the complete

10 legislations in both of the entities dealing with the pensions, but I

11 leave it to the Court.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then be very practical. The Defence has

13 received copies of the, in your view, relevant portions and the

14 translations?

15 MR. HARMON: Yes, that's correct.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then, also until the 9th of May, give the

17 Defence an opportunity to add any article of this legislation which in the

18 Defence's view would be relevant, then seek translation to be made so that

19 what finally will be received by the Chamber are those articles. So that

20 means the heading, law of this and this state, et cetera, et cetera

21 published there, there, and there. And then the relevant articles,

22 relevant both in view of the Prosecution and the Defence, and we would

23 like then to receive any suggestion for adding articles to the translation

24 also by the 9th of May, Mr. Josse. Yes.

25 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

Page 22959

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

2 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then next item on the agenda is the retranslation

4 of P824 and submission of Official Gazette.

5 We asked you, Mr. Harmon, to submit a retranslation of

6 Exhibit P824, tab 1, which is a decision of the Serb Assembly of Hadzici

7 municipality, and to submit, if it was available to you, the Official

8 Gazette number 11 of 1992 containing a decree on the return of the Serb

9 Republic -- to the Serb Republic of the people who moved out, which is

10 referred to in the Assembly decision and to provide that to us by the

11 30th of March. And as far as our recollection goes, we have not received

12 it. Could you update us on the matter?

13 MR. HARMON: I'm informed, Your Honour, that we will need one more

14 week to complete that process.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, is there any problem if we would grant an

16 additional week to the Prosecution to finalise this matter?

17 MR. JOSSE: Not as far as the Defence are concerned, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then you got the week you asked for, Mr. Harmon.

19 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- yes. There is a matter which has to be dealt

21 with in private session, number 5 on the agenda, Mr. Josse. I see you

22 nodding. I don't know yet whether it's yes or no, but --

23 MR. JOSSE: Well, for my -- our part it does not need to be dealt

24 with at this stage in this way.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll leave it as it is for the time being unless

Page 22960

1 you --

2 MR. JOSSE: I am basically agreeable with what Mr. Zahar has

3 suggested. If the need arises, then it will be revisited, as Your Honour

4 has indicated, somewhat later in the case.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that means that the three exhibits mentioned

6 here, that's P595, P596, and P597, will remain under seal, and we'll hear

7 from the Defence if there's any need to change that, and then we'll hear

8 that in private session and then we'll give a decision. But as matters

9 stand now, we leave it as it is.

10 MR. JOSSE: We don't need to spend any more time on it. I'm sure

11 about that.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

13 Any other matters?

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've got two matters. One tiny and one

15 not very big.

16 The tiny matter is this, Your Honour. In paragraph 15 of Your

17 Honours' order yesterday it doesn't happen everyday in this case, but I've

18 been given undue credit there, Your Honour. The detective work was not

19 done by me, it was done by my co-detective, Mr. Josse, who spotted the

20 error. I'm the person who brought it to your attention, yes, but I was

21 just the messenger. But the credit for that eagle eye belongs to

22 Mr. Josse.

23 The second matter is this, Your Honour. It may be helpful just

24 now for one moment before Your Honours adjourn. May I just show Your

25 Honour and the Prosecution and everybody else just very, very briefly what

Page 22961

1 we've done by way of presentation of material and the hyperlinking,

2 because then if Your Honours had any questions that occurred to you over

3 the short break, then it might be helpful. I've got Mr. Sladojevic beside

4 me. He can bring up on Your Honours' screen now a list of the various

5 folders.

6 Okay. Do Your Honours have it?

7 JUDGE ORIE: I have a practical problem, perhaps that's the first

8 question I would have, that my screen is -- and I see that the same might

9 be true for you, Mr. Registrar, that it's very vague, as a matter of fact.

10 It's almost impossible to read, and that seems to be a technical matter

11 rather than anything else, unless I could --

12 MR. STEWART: Well, it seems a good job that we are dealing with

13 this now then, Your Honour, so we can see whether we can iron out some of

14 these --

15 JUDGE ORIE: There must be something in the connection which makes

16 it a bit blurred rather than -- and now we have it right on our screens.

17 MR. STEWART: Yes. It's maybe a different button or something

18 like that, Your Honour.


20 MR. STEWART: Well, do Your Honours see now clearly, I hope --


22 MR. STEWART: And they're pretty self-explanatory. We've got --

23 well, it's about 17 files, because there's folders, there's A and B. The

24 matches that Your Honours will see 14, some have got an A and B number,

25 but 14 folders and then equivalent what are referred to as binders. And

Page 22962

1 if Mr. Sladojevic, for example, were to bring up any one would do,

2 actually, say 6A would do, Republika Srpska government sessions, Your

3 Honours will see the list there and the hyperlinking English and B/C/S.

4 For most of us in court it will be English, well, most or all of the time.

5 I'm not proposing -- it's not technically feasible anyway, actually, Your

6 Honour, not proposing that we double up by some of us using the English

7 hyperlinking and Mr. Krajisnik, for example, using the B/C/S hyperlinking.

8 That really won't work. But it won't matter. Mr. Krajisnik can be

9 provided and will be provided with hard copy of anything in B/C/S -- well,

10 it will be B/C/S in his case that you want to ask him about if there is

11 the need, as there is sometimes for Your Honours and everybody else to

12 look at the B/C/S document to see what it looks like, then we can bring it

13 up by hyperlinking in this way.

14 May I just add, Your Honour, that not a great deal of this

15 material is in evidence, quite a bit of it tucked away in the recesses

16 of P64, Mr. Treanor's 28 binders, and good luck to anybody that goes

17 foraging in those binders. But there's quite a lot of stuff that isn't in

18 evidence.

19 Your Honour, may we just approach it this way, that from time to

20 time we perhaps review what should go in evidence and what is not in

21 evidence. But we hope that this is -- Your Honour can see from the nature

22 of the material, we hope this is a practical help to all concerned in

23 getting through Mr. Krajisnik's evidence as efficiently as possible.

24 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that any material that's not yet in

25 evidence that we receive that in hard copy as well?

Page 22963

1 MR. STEWART: Any material that's not in yet evidence, Your

2 Honour --

3 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. That we receive it if it will be introduced

4 during the testimony. You may have noticed that now and then I try to

5 browse --

6 MR. STEWART: I have spotted that occasionally over the past two

7 years, Your Honour, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And I, in fact, continue to do that.

9 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed. I'm not asking Your Honour to break

10 the habits of a lifetime or two years.

11 Your Honour, yes, I just hope that -- excuse me one moment, Your

12 Honour.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's no problem. I'm always anxious to

15 preserve us from massive multiple copying jobs. But, in principle, yes,

16 of course, Your Honour, and we wish Your Honours to have that material in

17 usable form.

18 JUDGE ORIE: That looks promising, I must say.

19 MR. STEWART: Well, I hope the promise will be --

20 JUDGE ORIE: As a computer addict, but at least as someone who

21 sees the advantages of using electronical material so that you have quick

22 access to the material we have to look at.

23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'd like to acknowledge in advance the

24 extreme help from Mr. Sladojevic and other members of my team in putting

25 this together. That means they get the blame if it goes wrong, but that's

Page 22964

1 another matter.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any other matter, apart from this tiny one

3 and --

4 MR. STEWART: No, that's done, Your Honour, those two matters.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Assuming that it will be a possibility for you,

8 Mr. Stewart, and you, Mr. Josse, to confer with Mr. Krajisnik during the

9 break, we'd like to give you 37 minutes and re-start at 10.30.

10 MR. STEWART: Well, thank you, Your Honour, that's our break gone.

11 It's -- Your Honour, it -- well, that's our break gone. It's --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have during the last five weeks or six weeks,

13 I have never had a break without at least two or three meetings, so I'm

14 aware that --

15 MR. STEWART: Well, to make a point, Your Honour, I have a whole

16 team and, Your Honour, it's a reasonable request, actually. This has

17 been -- these have been pretty hard days for my team.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll start at 20 minutes to 11.00.

19 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 --- Recess taken at 9.55 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, is the Defence ready to call its next

23 witness which I do understand is Mr. Krajisnik?

24 MR. STEWART: Not quite, Your Honour. As a result of the

25 discussions which -- thank you for giving us the opportunity of having

Page 22965

1 with Mr. Krajisnik, there are a few points which the Defence wishes --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Would like to raise before --

3 MR. STEWART: Absolutely, Your Honour, absolutely.


5 MR. STEWART: And they -- some of them arise out of the order,

6 Your Honour.

7 Actually, may I deal with the tiny points first. Mr. Krajisnik

8 would like to take the -- this is not a big point, Your Honour, the

9 earphone with which he is familiar and comfortable, the one-ear earphone.

10 He would like to take that with him into the witness box. We don't see a

11 major problem about that, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Neither do I. I do not see any objection from my

13 fellow Judges.

14 MR. STEWART: Thank you. Your Honour, also Mr. Krajisnik in the

15 light of Your Honours' decision as it stands at the moment, Mr. Krajisnik

16 would like to have, if possible, the videotapes. Your Honours' order

17 refers to the audiotapes. He would like to have, if possible, the

18 videotapes which obviously includes the audio of his evidence each day as

19 quickly as they can be made available. On CD because that's the -- I

20 said "tapes," I'm using that rather loosely, Your Honour. These days they

21 come on CDs or DVDs that are playable.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider the matter. We'll look at how quickly

23 they can be produced, and we'll further consider whether there would be

24 any objection against it.

25 [Trial Chamber confers].

Page 22966

1 MR. STEWART: I just -- I may say, Your Honour -- sorry.

2 Your Honour, I just had in mind it seemed a clear implication of

3 Your Honours' order and the reference to audiotapes that they would be

4 provided as soon as practicable.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll -- the Judges have no problems but of

6 course we would have to inquire into technical possibilities.

7 Of course, one of the major advantages of DVD above anything else

8 is that you can more quickly go through the material and move forward more

9 easily and at the same time look at it.

10 MR. STEWART: Oh, indeed, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: If that would be possible, then we would certainly

12 support that request.

13 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. As I understand it,

14 Mr. Krajisnik doesn't have the facilities to view tapes, Your Honour, so

15 that's why that specific request.


17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the next matter is the matter of the --

18 Your Honours will recall the letter, the recent letter that Mr. Krajisnik

19 had delivered to the Trial Chamber on the question of witnesses and a

20 suggestion of interference with Defence witnesses.


22 MR. STEWART: And, Your Honour, it was returned.

23 The position, Your Honour, as far as Defence counsel are

24 concerned, Your Honour, is that we have no filing ready, prepared in any

25 sort of draft on that matter, and we have to inform the Trial Chamber and

Page 22967

1 Mr. Krajisnik that it is by no means -- and by no means sure that there

2 ever will be a filing on that matter by counsel on Mr. Krajisnik's behalf.

3 Mr. Krajisnik is, once again, insistent, that's his word, which I pass on

4 to Your Honours, he is once again insistent that he wishes that letter of

5 his to go to Your Honours.

6 Your Honour, I really can - and I hope Your Honours -- I really

7 can do no more than pass on that message.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand the discussion between counsel and

9 the accused have been finalised by now and we'll see what to do.

10 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

11 The last point, Your Honour, is a matter of very considerable

12 concern to Mr. Krajisnik, and therefore I also make this point from him.

13 He has had drawn to his attention and has considered what Your Honours

14 said in your order in relation to the timing of the final briefs, filing

15 of final briefs, where Your Honours said that -- the fact that counsel for

16 the Defence have not found time to work on the brief, that's during the

17 course of the case, may be due to Mr. Krajisnik's non-payment since the

18 start of the trial if his assessed contribution to his Defence fund, which

19 is a significant portion of the whole, and we informed him fully of that

20 paragraph and Your Honours' expressed view that you should not give the

21 Tribunal's precious time to compensate for his decision to keep his

22 Defence team underfunded. Mr. Krajisnik wishes me to communicate from him

23 to the Trial Chamber that he considers that he has met all the obligations

24 which he undertook from his discussions with the Registry at around the

25 time hat I came into the case in the summer of 2004. So he does -- well,

Page 22968

1 he rejects that point in Your Honours' order.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. But at the same time,

3 Mr. Stewart, you're well aware -- I do understand that you communicate to

4 the Chamber what Mr. Krajisnik's position in that respect is. It is more

5 or less commenting on the Chamber's decision, and you know what -- if you

6 do not agree either with the reasoning or the outcome of a decision what

7 is the proper way of doing that and that would be to consider whether it

8 would merit an appeal or not and rather not to give your -- to express

9 your feelings of unhappiness with the decision or the reasoning of it is

10 not a very common thing to do. But I do understand that you are at this

11 moment, which is the last moment in which you could do it for the time

12 being, that you're communicating to us the feelings of Mr. Krajisnik in

13 this respect.

14 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour understands very well.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and fully.

16 MR. STEWART: -- where we are on that.

17 Your Honour, in relation to -- and accepting what Your Honour has

18 said about the proper mechanism for certification appeal and so on, of

19 course we're fully aware of that --

20 JUDGE ORIE: To consider whether it merits, yes.

21 MR. STEWART: Yes. I -- yes, I didn't say anything different,

22 Your Honour. Agreed, Your Honour.

23 The -- so far as the -- I know Mr. Josse wants to have a word in a

24 moment, and I will ask for that opportunity in just a second. But so far

25 as the final -- preparation of final briefs are concerned, again it's for

Page 22969

1 consideration whether an application is made for certification of appeal,

2 and we have Mr. Krajisnik's view on that, Your Honour. He wishes us to

3 express now, though, his extreme dissatisfaction at a timetable which, for

4 practical purposes, he feels -- and on this, Your Honour, the Defence does

5 support this last point by way of submission, he won't have an adequate

6 opportunity to participate in the preparation of the final brief himself,

7 especially having regard to the language difficulties which, of course, in

8 relation to that particular item in that particular timetable are

9 especially difficult, to put it mildly. So we do -- we do make that

10 point, Your Honour.

11 May I have a moment? I know Mr. Josse wants to have a word with

12 me about something.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 MR. STEWART: No, that's it, Your Honour, for -- on all those

15 points.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then a question whether you're ready to call

17 your next witness, being Mr. Krajisnik, as I understand.

18 MR. STEWART: Mr. Krajisnik is my next witness, Your Honour, and I

19 do call him.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Krajisnik, yes, you would like to raise a

21 matter? You are raising your hand.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Honourable Judges, maybe I didn't

23 ask quite well, but I had asked Mr. Stewart to notify you that I wanted

24 him to appeal a decision as a precondition for an appeal based on the fact

25 that I didn't participate in my defence. So I wanted your decision on

Page 22970

1 which made conditional the submission of a motion. I wanted that

2 appealed.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid I do not fully understand. Are you saying

4 to us, Mr. Krajisnik, at this moment that you instructed Mr. Stewart to

5 appeal against the decision we delivered yesterday? Is that what you

6 are -- yes. Well, then, we'll hear from Mr. Stewart. Mr. Stewart

7 knows --

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only the part that concerns my

9 participation in the financing of the defence.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps I explained to you that -- you say the

11 reasoning is incorrect. I now fully understand that you instructed

12 Mr. Stewart to seek a certificate for an appeal focussing on that portion

13 of the decision that is the reasoning for not granting additional time for

14 preparation of your final briefs where it says that it may be due as well

15 to -- yes. I do understand. Since this is the very last moment that you

16 could express yourself on the matter in a communication with Mr. Stewart,

17 that you would like to emphasise that.

18 Mr. Stewart, I take it the matter is clear that Mr. Krajisnik told

19 us that he instructed you to seek a certificate for an appeal on this

20 specific matter, and we'll hear from you or in a -- in the near future

21 about it.

22 And of course, Mr. Krajisnik, I cannot make any assessment on what

23 could cause Mr. Stewart either to follow your instruction or to be

24 hesitant to do so. And if that would need further discussions,

25 Mr. Stewart or you will ask us for further communication on the matter

Page 22971

1 before Mr. Stewart will file the appeal. I can imagine that it's a matter

2 which needs further attention, but the Chamber stays out of it. But you

3 clarified what Mr. Stewart told us is that you did not only express your

4 dissatisfaction with that portion of the decision, but that it is your

5 wish that a certificate for appeal will be applied for. That is clear at

6 this moment.

7 Yes.

8 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. The Trial Chamber will be able to

9 see very well areas here arising out of this order and in connection with

10 this order which involve a distinct conflict of interest between counsel

11 and client.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm fully aware of that, yes.

13 MR. STEWART: Not conflict, but conflict of interest.


15 MR. STEWART: Although conflict of interest can, of course, lead

16 to conflict quite easily.

17 Your Honour, frankly, we were -- we were troubled by the timing of

18 this order. However it happened, the effect was that after having what

19 was going to be for the foreseeable future our last meeting with

20 Mr. Krajisnik yesterday at the -- yesterday afternoon at the Detention

21 Unit, that actually sometime later in the course of our evening's work

22 picking up the order, we've now had to deal - and thank you for the time

23 earlier, Your Honours - but we have now had to deal with an order

24 involving a number of different points which Mr. Krajisnik has not got in

25 translation, though we have very skillful interpreters on our team. I'm

Page 22972

1 concerned, Your Honour. Mr. Krajisnik and I, I'm happy to say, we parted

2 on very friendly terms yesterday evening when Mr. Josse and Mr. Krajisnik

3 and I and all concerned, we left the Detention Unit and that friendly tone

4 has persisted this morning. But I -- I'm -- I do not feel comfortable

5 about embarking on Mr. Krajisnik's evidence if there is, as there

6 sometimes is then, lingering tension, lingering misgivings on

7 Mr. Krajisnik's part, given that I as his counsel now have to examine him

8 in chief for some considerable time. Your Honour --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

10 MR. STEWART: What I'm asking for, Your Honour -- I'm sorry, I

11 didn't mean to interrupt.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No, not -- please proceed. I was about to interrupt

13 you.

14 MR. STEWART: No, I beg your pardon, Your Honour. Thank you so

15 much.

16 I would ask for a few more minutes with Mr. Krajisnik now.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, the -- and Mr. Krajisnik, the Chamber

19 has considered the matter. It's -- I mean, the potential conflict of

20 interest is there. Of course, if the matter could be resolved by a short

21 conversation, that would be fine; if, however, the apparent problem would

22 not be resolved, the Chamber is thinking more in terms of seeking advice

23 from a not directly involved counsel in the matter rather than anything

24 else. The Chamber is not inclined to allow any further delay of the start

25 of the testimony of Mr. Krajisnik.

Page 22973

1 MR. STEWART: May I ask for clarification, Your Honour. I've --

2 because --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the matter -- the matter whether a

4 certificate for appeal should be sought, yes or no, and for what reasons,

5 I mean there still is an opportunity to separate that more or less from

6 this case and seek someone to be involved who could advise Mr. Krajisnik

7 on the matter and then --

8 MR. STEWART: I beg your pardon, Your Honour, I'm so sorry. That

9 as the matter on which I sought qualification. A not directly involved

10 counsel. Mr. Krajisnik is to have advice from someone else, is he?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if there is -- I understand -- let's say it in

12 plain terms. I do understand that the matter of Mr. Krajisnik

13 contributing to his own defence, to the costs of his own defence, might be

14 a matter on which you have different views than Mr. Krajisnik has.

15 MR. STEWART: And different interests as well, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And different interests as well.

17 MR. STEWART: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, one could consider to provide -- to

19 provide, on a temporary basis, advice to Mr. Krajisnik by another lawyer

20 whose task would be restricted entirely to that matter.

21 MR. STEWART: To -- sorry, Your Honour, to which matter, to the

22 question of whether he should appeal?


24 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour -- sorry, Your Honour, that, with

25 respect, that simply won't work. We are his counsel. We conduct his

Page 22974

1 case. We either appeal on his behalf or we don't.

2 I must say, Your Honour, I think we're going down some road where

3 some other counsel involved starts lodging appeals on matters in a case

4 which we are conducting on Mr. Krajisnik's behalf where we have a -- I'm

5 sorry, Your Honour, I feel the need to see this through, but I'm just

6 wondering where on earth that goes. You see, it comes back --

7 JUDGE ORIE: It's an incident in a -- a smaller incident -- of

8 course the result is important both for you. You're seeking to have

9 additional time to prepare for the final brief, Mr. Krajisnik has an

10 interest to further time -- to seek further time for the preparation of a

11 final brief. But he is mainly concerned about the reasoning of the

12 Chamber, or at least a small part of the reasoning of the Chamber, and I

13 can imagine that one of the matters of concern would be that you would not

14 support entirely the criticism on that part of the reasoning.

15 MR. STEWART: It's -- it's quite a complex issue, Your Honour.

16 I should say that -- again, I don't believe for one moment there's

17 anything improper about me saying this. I wrote on Mr. Krajisnik's

18 instructions to the Registry on his behalf in relation to this matter

19 recently, but it has now been agreed between the Registry and me and --

20 the Registry and me in not any collusive way that it -- because of this

21 potential conflict it's not appropriate for me to continue that

22 correspondence. Mr. Krajisnik is free to correspond directly at any time

23 with the Registry and they of course with him, and on the particular issue

24 it's been understood that I really -- it is my suggestion that I really

25 needed to step aside from that.

Page 22975

1 But, Your Honour, there are -- there's -- I won't go into it, Your

2 Honour, but Mr. Krajisnik's assertions about his agreements and

3 arrangements with the Registry back in 2004, those are factual matters in

4 which I was not directly involved. I was, of course, very heavily

5 involved in the whole question of my coming into the case naturally and

6 all sorts of financial aspects, but they involve, if you like, factual

7 matters on which I have nothing to say because I wasn't there at

8 particular discussions. But they do give rise to a conflict.

9 But what also -- and, Your Honour, may I mention this. What also

10 causes enormous difficulty and a real conflict of interest between counsel

11 and client is that where Your Honours, for example, in this latest order

12 say that one of the reasons why we, counsel, haven't been able to work on

13 the final brief during the course of the case may be Mr. Krajisnik's

14 failure to make his contribution, we have already summarised this

15 submission before. The possibilities are all or any of a combination of

16 failure to make his combination, inadequate work by counsel, or excessive

17 pressures on counsel of the case. And the non-identification of which of

18 those ingredients contributes to the difficulty and an order in this form

19 which says that this may be a reason and then goes on to make an order

20 based on the footing that it is part of the reason puts me and

21 Mr. Krajisnik in a terribly difficult position.

22 And what I'm concerned about, Your Honour -- I said it not

23 cryptically, but I said I had Mr. Krajisnik's views on the question of

24 certification and so on. It's now clear what those views are. A, they

25 have to be very carefully considered; but B, the time for certification is

Page 22976

1 going to tick away, or an application for certification is going to tick

2 away, and it's going to expire in about seven days' time. So it's going

3 to expire right in the middle of Mr. Krajisnik's evidence. That's not

4 going to be easy, Your Honour, if Mr. Krajisnik is not happy with our

5 decision, let alone Your Honour's decision.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we -- of course we could extend the time-limit

7 if we want to.

8 MR. STEWART: That puts off the evil day, Your Honour, but that

9 doesn't solve the problem one tiny bit. It makes it worse, with respect.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well ...

11 MR. STEWART: Well, it does, Your Honour, because then it's

12 ticking away.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll discuss the matter for most likely

15 approximately 15 minutes at this moment. You have an opportunity to speak

16 to Mr. Krajisnik on the matter.

17 And one of the things --

18 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: -- I would just like you to consider as a

20 possibility, Mr. Stewart, is the following. I was at a point earlier to

21 explain to Mr. Krajisnik the difference between a decision, a criticism to

22 a decision, and a criticism to the reasoning of a decision. If you -- if

23 you say: I'm not happy with the reasons, that does not necessarily result

24 in another decision. Sometimes reasons can be replaced by other reasons.

25 We've really considered the matter, so that is a matter.

Page 22977

1 One of the things I could imagine - and that's perhaps I was not

2 very precise in my wordings, and I do agree with you that it's a complex

3 matter - one of the things I had in mind that if you're both seeking more

4 time, and if you find there are good reasons to do so and therefore you

5 would be inclined to seek certification of the -- for an appeal, and if

6 Mr. Krajisnik wants to go in the same direction, that as far as the

7 reasons for the appeal are concerned, one could imagine that you in your

8 request for a certification, you would write down all the reasons you

9 consider reasonable reasons for such an appeal and add to them, very

10 specifically, to say: I add to these reasons reasons I'm instructed by my

11 client to give for such an appeal, leaving apart whether I would or would

12 not fully support but I accept these reasons on the basis that he was

13 advised by a qualified lawyer on this matter and therefore I adopt those

14 reasons in my appeal. That's a way of manoeuvreing through the problems

15 which I would not consider at first sight to be inappropriate and I'd --

16 it doesn't have a great impact, I take it, on the way the appeal is

17 handled or the request for a certificate. I would just like you to

18 consider that possibility and perhaps, if you have considered it and if

19 you think it worthwhile, to discuss it with Mr. Krajisnik, to do so.

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we will certainly give it

21 consideration.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

23 We will adjourn for 15 minutes.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 12.04 p.m.

Page 22978

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, is there -- has your conversation with

2 Mr. Krajisnik changed anything compared to the position before we left

3 this courtroom?

4 MR. STEWART: Well, it -- it hasn't changed anything in substance.

5 We've -- we have discussed various points, Your Honour, and there's a

6 measure of agreement on some things and then there are other matters

7 unresolved. But what it has brought us to is this, Your Honour, and this

8 inevitably has to be an assessment by Mr. Josse and me as well as a

9 submission. But, Your Honour, we do not consider that Mr. Krajisnik is in

10 a state to begin evidence today. Mr. Krajisnik agrees.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Having consulted by colleagues -- first of all, is --

13 does the Prosecution wish to add anything to this?

14 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the Chamber decides that we will start in

16 a couple of minutes from now on the testimony of Mr. Krajisnik, which has

17 been prepared for such a long time.

18 Secondly, for a better understanding of our decision delivered

19 yesterday specifically on the subject matter of the dead-line for the

20 final briefs, the parties are informed that the reasons for denying the

21 time asked for preparing final briefs are found in paragraph 19 of that

22 decision. If a request for a certificate for an appeal would be filed,

23 whatever we'll find in that request the Chamber will in any case consider

24 what Mr. Krajisnik told us about his dissatisfaction on paragraph 20 of

25 the decision. This is the ruling of the Chamber.

Page 22979

1 Then the Defence is now requested to call its next witness, which

2 is Mr. Krajisnik, so that he starts his testimony.

3 MR. STEWART: I call Mr. Krajisnik, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you're invited to follow Madam Usher

5 to the stand.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I see that you have now your own

8 earphone with you. And before I'll invite you to make a solemn

9 declaration, I'd just like to inform you and inform the Defence as well

10 that we inquired into the possibility of providing you with a DVD. It's

11 possible to prepare a DVD so that you can review that, video DVD, but it

12 takes a bit more time. It would cause a delay of approximately one day,

13 so where an audio CD or DVD could be provided within -- well, let's say

14 within one hour, this would take 24 hours. So I take it that you still

15 prefer to have the DVD -- the video DVD. Is that correct? Yes, I see you

16 are nodding yes.

17 Then, Mr. Krajisnik, you're now in a different position, not only

18 I would say geographically, you're not anymore on my right-hand side,

19 you're just in front of me. That means you are in a different position.

20 You will now become a witness in your own case. And the Rules of

21 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

22 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The

23 text will now be handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I invite you to

24 make that solemn declaration.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 22980

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Krajisnik.

3 Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.

4 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please have some paper?


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examination by Mr. Stewart:

9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, what are your full names, please?

10 A. Momcilo Krajisnik.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, have you -- have you brought with you into the

12 witness box or in your case a copy of what you know to be a draft 89(F)

13 statement. It's 44 paragraphs and it's something which you have,

14 yourself, made some handwritten amendments to overnight?

15 A. I brought it. May I take it out of my brief-case? I have it here

16 with me.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it you want to submit it to the Court.

18 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, you are invited to do so,

20 Mr. Krajisnik.

21 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, the way -- and the Prosecution

22 have been informed of this, Your Honour. Because Mr. Krajisnik has made

23 some amendments overnight, there are quite a few of them, though they are

24 quite short, and as I did notify the -- an officer in the Trial Chamber

25 early this morning, we wish to have this read into the record. The

Page 22981

1 procedure I would propose to adopt, Your Honour, is that I would read from

2 the English, and I do know on which paragraphs Mr. Krajisnik has a change

3 to make, and I would then give him that opportunity paragraph by

4 paragraph.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And to add that in B/C/S so that it will be

6 translated and it will be in the record.

7 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. And then no doubt in due

8 course we can get something --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed on that basis.


11 Q. Paragraph 1, this is your statement which I'm going to ask you

12 whether you confirm in the end, Mr. Krajisnik. That: "I was born on the

13 20th of January 1945 in Zabrdje, a suburban community in the Sarajevo

14 metropolitan area. My father was Sretko, my mother, Milka. I have one

15 brother, Mirko Krajisnik, born in 1950."

16 Paragraph 2: "I attended elementary school in Reljevo not far

17 from Zabrdje. Then I attended economics middle school in Sarajevo from

18 1959 to 1963. I completed my studies at the faculty of economics in 1967

19 and took my degree on the 2nd of October, 1968. I completed my graduate

20 studies in 1975 in Sarajevo and later successfully defended my master's

21 thesis in 1980. My brother, Mirko, went to the same middle school and

22 later also was graduated from the faculty of economics in Sarajevo."

23 Paragraph 3: "As a student, I was not politically active on

24 campus, but I was a member of the youth organisation and the SSRN,

25 Socialist Alliance of Working People of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Those

Page 22982

1 organisations were created by the communist regime but had no independent

2 political weight and were under the control of the communist party. In

3 this way, I had the opportunity of representing the Zabrdje area. As I

4 was rated an exemplary youth, I was accorded the privilege of serving my

5 military duty in 1969 to 1970 in my native city of Sarajevo. After the

6 normal few months of boot camp, I remained in Sarajevo in the post of

7 commander of a unit which was training a new batch of raw recruits at the

8 reserve officers school educational centre. I was first employed on the

9 15th of October, 1968, at the Energoinvest enterprise in Sarajevo. I was

10 assigned to the financial services section of the company, Energobanka. I

11 was employed there until 1975 except for the 11 months I spent in military

12 service. Until I was called-up I was a clerk. After my release from the

13 army and two years of on-the-job training, I was promoted to director of

14 the financial services section. After Energoinvest was reorganised, I was

15 transferred to the TAT" --

16 A. Director of the service in a big sector.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they do not have the

18 text.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was director of a service.


21 Q. Promoted to director of the ...

22 A. A service, but a sector is high above that.

23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me, before Mr. Stewart continues

24 I don't know if he heard but perhaps it would be helpful to provide --

25 MR. STEWART: Yes, I did hear, thank you. And I apologise. I

Page 22983

1 thought it had happened. Do the interpreters want both the B/C/S and the

2 English?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, please.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Reading might take some additional time, so if

5 there's any way of copying -- if -- if any copies are available -- of

6 course we have an English version but not a B/C/S version.

7 MR. STEWART: Can I say, Your Honour, my apologies. I'd only like

8 to say that there have been terrible problems out there in the Defence

9 room today with broken-down photocopiers, printer not working, and so on.

10 I do apologise for that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if there's any need -- if that would instruct

12 any further problems, then I would invite those who are supporting

13 Chambers to make, quickly, copies as soon as we have received a B/C/S and

14 an English version. I take it that production will take --

15 MR. STEWART: Yeah, we can give a B/C/S version immediately, Your

16 Honour.


18 MR. STEWART: We have one.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And if the English copy is there as well.

20 The Chamber's support staff will take care that within a couple of

21 minutes copies will be there so that the interpreters will on from then

22 have no further difficulties.

23 MR. STEWART: My apologies, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please, if you would proceed then at

25 this moment at a low speed, as you had already, reading.

Page 22984

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. After Energoinvest was reorganised, I was transferred to the TAT

4 Termoaparati factory in Sarajevo which was an integral part of

5 Energoinvest. I was financial director of the factory. After TAT was

6 reorganised in" -- and I think you want to make a change to this bit,

7 Mr. Krajisnik. "After TAT was reorganised in 1977, I became one of the

8 vice-presidents of the business committee in charge of finance."

9 And you wish to make some change to that last sentence, do you?

10 A. I just wish to add something, that this reorganisation was carried

11 out. Now was it 1976 or 1977, I'm not sure, but your associates have

12 already entered the correction, that I was vice-president of the business

13 committee in charge of finance.

14 Q. Yes. So the -- it's just that the date -- it can read: "After

15 TAT was reorganised in 1976 or 1977," and then as the text stands?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 5: "In 1973, I married Milanka Micevic, who

18 was born in 1949. She was a teacher and worked at the Reljevo and

19 Brijesce elementary schools close to Zabrdje. My wife and I lived with

20 our children in our own house. I lived in Zabrdje from birth to the

21 beginning of the war in April 1992 when I moved with my family to Pale.

22 My wife and I had three children: Milica, born in 1974; Milos born in

23 1978; and Njegos born in 1982. All were born in Sarajevo. Milica, Milos,

24 and Njegos were all graduated in economics, the last being Njegos on

25 28 March, 2006. All three studied in Pale and are living there now."

Page 22985

1 Paragraph 6: "I first met Radovan Karadzic in 1983. At that time

2 I was employed at TAT while Dr. Karadzic was a psychiatrist at the

3 Sarajevo clinical centre. Dr. Karadzic was working part time at the

4 Energoinvest medical centre in downtown Sarajevo about 6" - sorry, my

5 mistake - "about 10 kilometres from the TAT main office which was in Stup

6 in the municipality of Ilidza. I met Dr. Karadzic by chance in 1983

7 through a mutual acquaintance. That acquaintance asked me to help a

8 friend of his, meaning Dr. Karadzic, by giving him professional advice on

9 how to obtain credit for the construction of an industrial facility."

10 And, Mr. Krajisnik, I think there may be a change at the very end

11 there?

12 A. Yes. This is a combined facility, business and housing.

13 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber, please, exactly how you would wish it to

14 read then, that sentence, Mr. Krajisnik.

15 A. To obtain credit for the building of a combined business/housing

16 facility. That is, a facility that is used for residential purposes and

17 for production, small-scale production.

18 Q. So, Mr. Krajisnik, if we add on at the end then that small

19 explanation, that is a facility that is used for residential purposes and

20 for production, small-scale production, and it can read in that way?

21 Thank you.

22 Paragraph 7: "The three of us, my friend, Dr. Karadzic and I, met

23 in a Sarajevo restaurant called Snack Bar in the Malta district. I

24 explained to Dr. Karadzic what types of loans were available from the

25 various banks. I was in a position to do that because as part of my job I

Page 22986

1 was dealing with most Sarajevo financial institutions on an everyday

2 basis. Dr. Karadzic was finally successful in obtaining a loan, but I

3 played no role in that nor were my further services required. I learned

4 of these further developments from the mutual acquaintance. As a few

5 months later, Dr. Karadzic began to work at the Energoinvest ambulance, I

6 began to see him from time to time."

7 And, Mr. Krajisnik, I think you do have some changes to make in

8 that paragraph?

9 A. Yes. After the word "Dr. Karadzic got a credit, obtained a loan,"

10 it should be added -- or rather, the following words should be added. "By

11 investing his own foreign currency." That was the easiest type of loan to

12 get.

13 And at the end of the paragraph: "He worked as a freelancer in

14 Vares or Breza," I don't know exactly which town," in addition to working

15 at the Energoinvest infirmary."

16 Q. Yes. Thank you.

17 Paragraph 8: "Through Dr. Karadzic I met Nikola Koljevic, as he

18 and Dr. Karadzic were long-time friends. These developments were taking

19 place immediately prior to the Sarajevo Winter Olympics in 1984.

20 Dr. Karadzic wanted to use the structure he had built to service Olympics

21 visitors, but that did not come to fruition. Later on in 1984

22 Dr. Karadzic moved to Belgrade and spent half a year or more there. Being

23 unable to resolve some personal issues, exchanging his Sarajevo apartment

24 for one in the capital and finding a job there for his wife, Dr. Karadzic

25 returned to Sarajevo to work at the same clinic where he had been employed

Page 22987

1 before."

2 And, Mr. Krajisnik, I think there may be a very small amendment to

3 be made somewhere in that passage. Is that correct?

4 A. I wanted the following to be added. For the apartment not to say

5 capital but to say Belgrade.

6 Q. Yes. So it just reads: "Exchanging his Sarajevo apartment for

7 one in Belgrade."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Then going to the last sentence: "I was unaware at the time that

10 Dr. Karadzic had moved to Belgrade or what the reasons were for that move.

11 There as no contact between Dr. Karadzic and me while he was in Belgrade."

12 Well, it wasn't the last sentence, but that's clear to you, that

13 paragraph, is it, is it, Mr. Krajisnik? Thank you. You nodded. Thank

14 you.

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Paragraph 9: "During our acquaintanceship Dr. Karadzic and I did

17 get together socially such as for family visits or for holidays."

18 Paragraph 10: "Until the first half of 1990, I had taken no part

19 in politics or in any of the activities of which I was unaware anyway

20 which led to the founding of the SDS party."

21 And again I think there may be changes to be made to that

22 paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik.

23 A. I think that something should be deleted. The part that's in

24 brackets should be deleted and the following words should be inserted:

25 "But on television and through the newspapers I followed, like any other

Page 22988

1 citizen, what was going on on the political scene."

2 Q. That's -- those are all the changes to that paragraph,

3 Mr. Krajisnik, are they?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 Paragraph 11: "My family had been living in Zabrdje and Rajlovac

7 over the previous 300 years. My father's property that Prosecution

8 investigator Mr. Jovanovic had identified in Rajlovac and Zabrdje had been

9 acquired by generations of Krajisniks. The only thing done by me

10 personally was to construct a home, but part of the land it was situated

11 on had been acquired by my parents."

12 Paragraph 12: "Other than the home and the land, I had no other

13 property in Zabrdje and Rajlovac. The property I held in Pale was

14 acquired on credit and continues to be under encumbrance."

15 Paragraph 13: "I first became involved in politics when I became

16 a member of the SDS at the time of its founding on 13th of July, 1990."

17 But, Mr. Krajisnik, you may have a change in that sentence? Which

18 is?

19 A. Yes. Instead of the 13th of July it should say the 12th of July.

20 Q. So continuing. "At that time the SDS was a broad Serbian national

21 movement which Serbs were joining en masse. I was not on the SDS founding

22 committee, nor did Dr. Karadzic insist that I join. I don't know why I

23 wasn't asked to join. It was probably because Dr. Karadzic was aware of

24 my aversion to active involvement in politics and because there were other

25 people who were involved whom Dr. Karadzic had known better and for

Page 22989

1 longer."

2 Paragraph 14: "Until late September/early October 1990, I was not

3 in any sense active in SDS politics. I did not attend a single SDS

4 election rally prior to the November 1990 elections. Specifically, I did

5 not attend rallies in any municipalities of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

6 including Sanski Most. Dr. Karadzic, Mrs. Plavsic, and Koljevic did

7 attend those rallies. The only political meeting I attended was in my

8 native community when the SDS candidates for parliament for Sarajevo were

9 being introduced to the voters."

10 And, Mr. Krajisnik, again I think you may have some changes to

11 that paragraph.

12 A. After Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic, the words "and others" should

13 be added.

14 Q. Is that the only change to that paragraph?

15 A. After Sanski Most the following words should be added, which was

16 stated by one of the Prosecution witnesses.

17 Q. What are the words, Mr. Krajisnik?

18 A. Including the municipality of Sanski Most, behind that the

19 following should be added: "Which was stated by a Prosecution witness,"

20 meaning Sanski Most, that I attended an election rally in Sanski Most.

21 Q. Yes. Under -- well, clear, as a matter of language surprising.

22 Thank you.

23 Paragraph 15: "I joined the SDS as a regular member, as many

24 Serbs did who saw the SDS as the only legitimate Serb political movement,

25 in response to the formation of the Muslim and Croat nationalist parties,

Page 22990

1 the SDA and HDZ, respectively. I had intended to devote myself to my

2 business responsibilities at TAT, where I enjoyed widespread support among

3 employees after my exoneration. I wanted to do my best for the enterprise

4 as a gesture of appreciation to the workers who stood behind me when I had

5 been charged and put on trial with Dr. Karadzic and others in 1985 and

6 finally acquitted about four years later."

7 Just to clarify, Mr. Krajisnik, when you talk about support among

8 employees after your exoneration, you are referring to that point in the

9 next sentence, are you, your eventual acquittal?

10 A. Yes. In 1984 proceedings were initiated. I was suspended from my

11 job, and towards the end of 1989 I was returned to the same job thanks to

12 the workers. And then I owed them, in a way.

13 Q. Then paragraph 16: "I also wanted to devote myself to my family

14 and sick wife."

15 Paragraph 17: "I first became actively engaged in politics

16 sometime in 1990 when I was asked by the SDS main office, not

17 Dr. Karadzic, to appear as an SDS spokesman in a Radio Sarajevo programme

18 to explain to listeners the SDS economic programme. Each political party,

19 SDA, SDS, and HDZ, was to have a representative on the programme. The

20 caller explained that the person originally scheduled to appear had pulled

21 out due to cold feet for fear of losing his job if he raised his political

22 profile. I accepted on the condition that I never be asked to perform a

23 similar favour again. Dr. Karadzic was unaware of my being asked to

24 appear on the programme."

25 Mr. Krajisnik, you may have changes, I think, to that paragraph.

Page 22991

1 A. In the second line. After the words that are under quotation

2 marks "SDS headquarters," the following words should be added: "I do not

3 remember who called me."

4 And finally at the end in the brackets where it says: "In order

5 to appear in the programme," the following words should be added: "At

6 least that's what I think," meaning that I did not know whether

7 Dr. Karadzic was unaware or not but I thought that he was unaware.

8 Q. Then paragraph 18: "A short time after that radio show, there was

9 another similar call asking me to appear on TV. The caller was Aleksa

10 Buha, whom I did not know at the time. Buha asked me to speak on the same

11 topics on television. I reiterated the condition under which I had agreed

12 to appear on Radio Sarajevo. Buha said that the organisers of the TV

13 debate had failed utterly and that the party were desperate to have a

14 competent spokesman to explain their position. I agreed because I did not

15 want the SDS to be unrepresented in the economic debate but said that this

16 would really be my last appearance. In fact, the SDS did not have much of

17 an economic programme and I mostly articulated my own views on the need

18 for privatisation and other reforms."

19 Paragraph 19: "After that TV show, Mr. Buha called me again

20 asking me to make another television appearance. This time I resolutely

21 refused his request on the grounds of our last agreement that the last

22 appearance would really be the last one and that I had a forthcoming

23 business trip on behalf of my company. While on my business trip, I

24 watched the TV programme that I had been asked to participate in, and to

25 my surprise there was an empty chair where the SDS representative should

Page 22992

1 have been sitting, which I felt guilty about."

2 Mr. Krajisnik, I think you may have changes to that paragraph.

3 A. Line 3. When it says "categorically" here -- or

4 rather, "resolutely," I think that should be deleted.

5 And this business trip to Trebinje. It was to Trebinje that I

6 went to. So I think that should be added, "to Trebinje."

7 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 20: "Upon my return to Sarajevo, I called

8 the SDS main office and spoke to Mr. Buha. He told me that the original

9 economic spokesman was still too frightened to appear. I felt bad about

10 this and told Mr. Buha that if ever the party needed someone to explain

11 its economic position they could count on me. After that, I was called

12 upon to be a guest in two or three TV debates."

13 21: "About a month before the elections, I was called by the

14 municipal committee of the SDS for Novi Grad, the most densely populated

15 district of Sarajevo. I attended a meeting that evening which turned out

16 to be the first meeting of the district SDS committee. There was a great

17 deal of dissension among those present and some heavy criticisms from the

18 representative of the SDS Main Board. I asked for the floor and addressed

19 those present with some conciliatory words which helped to reduce

20 tensions. To my surprise, at the end of the meeting Glavonjic took the

21 floor and proposed that he resign and that I replace him."

22 Mr. Krajisnik, you may have a change to that paragraph, I think?

23 A. After the word "chairman" it should be said is that this is the

24 chairman of the initiative board of the Serb Democratic Party of the

25 municipality of Novi Grad.

Page 22993

1 Q. And then paragraph 22: "I wholeheartedly rejected this suggestion

2 and it failed. I did not hear it at the time but later learned that

3 Glavonjic had said that it would be reconsidered at the following

4 meeting."

5 It's not clear to me, Mr. Krajisnik, whether you have any change

6 to that paragraph. Do you or not?

7 A. There is no need to amend this paragraph.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 23: "At the next meeting a day or two later, Glavonjic reiterated

10 his proposal. I was still firmly opposed to entering into politics.

11 After the meeting, I nevertheless consulted my wife and parents. As fate

12 would have it, the political fever was infecting most BiH citizens,

13 including my own family. Political broadcasts became the subject of

14 widespread interest which the public was following intensely. Neither my

15 wife nor parents opposed the idea. They left it up to me to decide."

16 Mr. Krajisnik, I think you will have a change?

17 A. After the words "wife and parents," the following text should be

18 added: "Whom I had promised that I would not become politically involved,

19 and if the situation would make it incumbent upon me to do that I would

20 ask for their consent regarding that decision of mine."

21 Q. Paragraph 24: "At the next SDS district meeting, approximately

22 one month before the November 1990 elections, Velibor Ostojic was in

23 attendance. I did not know Ostojic before then. Ostojic spoke calmly and

24 kept control of the meeting. He said that his mission was to make sure

25 that a local SDS chairman was elected. The consensus of those present was

Page 22994

1 that it should be me. I kept declining and even pointed out that I had

2 spent time in prison, which might damage the party's reputation. Instead

3 of concern, those present welcomed that fact and said that was a plus,

4 because it showed that I was a dissident who had been persecuted by the

5 communist regime."

6 Mr. Krajisnik, do you have changes to that paragraph?

7 A. I would like two amendments to be made. After the words in the --

8 in line 4, "control of the meeting," the following words should be

9 added: "As opposed to his predecessor." And at the end of this paragraph

10 the following text: "That is how I became the chairman of the initiative

11 committee of the municipality of Novi Grad" -- or rather: "The initiative

12 committee of the SDS of the municipality of Novi Grad for the period up to

13 the elections."

14 Q. Those are all the changes to that paragraph, are they,

15 Mr. Krajisnik? Well, you've waved --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You have to say yes. Thank you.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Paragraph 25: "Soon thereafter, the issue of candidates for the

20 two chambers of BiH legislature arose, the Chamber of municipalities and

21 the chamber of citizens. Since the chamber of municipalities candidate

22 had scant chances of electoral success because of the local ethnic

23 composition, which was only 27 per cent Serb, there was not much

24 competition for that candidacy, but disagreements did arise once

25 candidates for the other chamber came up for discussion. There were two

Page 22995

1 factions, one promoting myself and the other some other candidate. I

2 refused to stand and nominated somebody else. Views became polarised. My

3 suggestion that they should focus on nominating a good candidate for a

4 leading post in the Sarajevo municipal government did not ease the

5 tension. In order to calm passions, I finally agreed to be a candidate on

6 the metropolitan level. Unkovic was the first candidate, while I was his

7 running mate in the number two spot who did not have much chance of

8 winning."

9 Mr. Krajisnik, I think you may have changes for that paragraph.

10 A. Line 4, there was not much commotion. I think the

11 word "commotion" should be replaced with the word "discussion"

12 or "debate."

13 In the next line after that where it says one of them supported

14 me, it should read "supported my nomination." And after that where it

15 says: "The executive authorities of the Sarajevo municipality," it should

16 read: "The executive authority of the City Assembly." There is a

17 difference between the municipality and the Municipal Assembly or the City

18 Assembly.

19 Q. Yes. Can we clarify, Mr. Krajisnik, the -- what would -- for the

20 purposes of the English, apart from anything else, you said that in line 4

21 of your text that the word "commotion" should be replaced with the

22 word "discussion or "debate." What we have in English, I think that's the

23 passage you're talking about, was: "There was not much competition for

24 that candidacy." Are you saying that it should read: "There was not much

25 discussion," to choose one word, "there was not much discussion about that

Page 22996

1 candidacy but disagreements did arise."

2 Is that what you're saying?

3 A. That explanation in English sounds correct. There was no

4 competition and there was no great debate.

5 Q. I feel confident we can tidy that up, Mr. Krajisnik. Thank you.

6 Paragraph 26, therefor: "The two-candidate formula that was

7 agreed to was sent to the city SDS committee for approval. Throughout

8 this time I had no dealings with Dr. Karadzic or any other city committee

9 functionary. I have no idea who moved for my name to be placed on the

10 Sarajevo electoral list. Nobody had ever explained that to me.

11 In the end, my name was number six on the overall SDS list of candidates."

12 27: "In November 1990, I was on the list of deputies from the

13 Sarajevo region. I did not participate in a single pre-election rally

14 except for the one in my own village or town where I lived, Rajlovac, as

15 well as the final convention when all deputies' candidates for Sarajevo

16 gathered in the Vasa Pelagic Hall in Sarajevo. I also participated in one

17 radio show as well as about four TV broadcasts."

18 28: "In the first electoral round, the SDS gained five seats in

19 Sarajevo, which means that I was not elected. I made it subsequently when

20 electoral results were assessed according to a formula and parties which

21 failed to gain a minimum of votes were eliminated from consideration. In

22 that redistribution, the SDS gained an additional seat and that is how I

23 was elected."

24 29: "After the elections, the victorious parties divided up

25 political spoils and the post of president of parliament was allocated to

Page 22997

1 SDS. SDS was promoting the candidacy of Milan Trbojevic for that post. I

2 was present while Dr. Karadzic and Trbojevic were discussing it and was

3 aware that that was party policy. Dr. Karadzic conveyed that decision to

4 Trbojevic and Trbojevic accepted that position."

5 It's slightly ambiguous in English, Mr. Krajisnik. It's -- the

6 sense in Serbian must be - is this right - that Mr. Trbojevic accepted the

7 situation as Dr. Karadzic reported it to him?

8 A. Mr. Karadzic offered to Mr. Trbojevic the candidacy for the post

9 of Speaker of parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Mr. Trbojevic

10 accepted it. It should have been a done deal, at least that's what I

11 understood at that meeting between the two of them which I attended.

12 Q. I think I choose the position there, Mr. Krajisnik. I'm going to

13 move on.

14 Number 30: "I became a candidate for the chairman of the

15 Executive Committee of SDS for the city of Sarajevo. This time I did want

16 the position and accepted it willingly. I wanted to use it to help my

17 native communities of Zabrdje and Rajlovac which were rather neglected in

18 their development in spite of their central location within the

19 metropolitan area. No one told me that I was going to become candidate

20 for Speaker of the Assembly."

21 31: "Dr. Karadzic was pushing for a Sarajevo candidate and spoke

22 out strongly in favour of Mr. Trbojevic. When Trbojevic's candidacy

23 failed, a call was put through to me at home to attend an expanded meeting

24 of the Deputies' Club."

25 32: "Due to a misunderstanding with Mr. Ostojic, I barged into

Page 22998

1 the session of the SDS Executive Committee and then angrily returned home.

2 When I reached home again, I found a message asking me to return

3 immediately to the meeting I had just left."

4 33: "They directed me to the meeting of the Deputies' Club and I

5 found them engaged in a fierce debate about who should be the party

6 candidate for parliament president. Members of the SDS city committee

7 were rebelled against the official choice for parliament president. They

8 objected that Mr. Trbojevic would be just another Sarajevo man in high

9 office and that this would be unfair to the Krajina region since most

10 candidates had a Sarajevo background. There was an influential group of

11 deputies that demanded that Mr. Trbojevic's candidacy be rejected and that

12 he be replaced by a candidate from Krajina (i.e. a 'Krajisnik')."

13 Is there a change that you wish to make to that paragraph,

14 Mr. Krajisnik?

15 A. An addition should be made after the word "Sarajevo background,"

16 "on which point I think the deputies were right." That should be the

17 addition.

18 Q. 34: "I knew hardly any of those present except for Radovan

19 Karadzic. Dr. Karadzic came in and asked for the floor. He said - and

20 this is almost verbatim: 'Some of you want our candidate to be a Sarajevo

21 man, others want a Krajisnik, so I now give you a Krajisnik from

22 Sarajevo.' The deputies were perplexed and they started asking what my

23 name was. That is how I came to be elected, because of my surname and

24 place of residence."

25 Is there any change you wish to make to that paragraph,

Page 22999

1 Mr. Krajisnik?

2 A. After "Dr. Karadzic," I assumed there was someone else as well and

3 perhaps somebody else as well. I have -- I only saw Karadzic, but I

4 assume there was somebody else in addition to him.

5 Q. Where -- perhaps you could try and be precise about what words you

6 would wish to go into that paragraph and where, Mr. Krajisnik.

7 A. Line 1 should read: "I knew none of those present except for

8 Radovan Karadzic and maybe one other person who rose and asked for the

9 floor."

10 So the addition is actually: "And maybe one other person." I

11 knew very few people, but it wouldn't be true to say it was only Radovan

12 Karadzic.

13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, do you wish to leave in or take out the short

14 second sentence: "Dr. Karadzic came in and asked for the floor."

15 A. No. I only wish to say this: "Except for Radovan Karadzic and

16 one other person who came in and asked for the floor."

17 Q. 35: "Before that, no one, including Dr. Karadzic, talked to me

18 about this candidacy. That was a complete surprise for me, and I had no

19 ready response. I was elected first candidate to the post and then

20 president of BiH parliament."

21 Do you have some change to that paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik?

22 A. I had, but I gave up on that.

23 Q. The translation was "give up." You're positive you do not wish to

24 make any change?

25 A. I give up on the correction that I had indicated earlier.

Page 23000

1 Q. Paragraph 36: "Although the original plan was for me to be

2 elected member of the SDS city executive committee, I ended up president

3 of parliament without having played any role in the process. I formally

4 became parliament president at that body's session in November 1990."

5 Any change to that paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik?

6 A. Two changes, actually. In line 1: "Although the initial plan,"

7 instead of "original plan." And in the penultimate line -- sorry, line 2.

8 Instead of: "Member of the Executive Committee," it should

9 be: "President of the Executive Committee."

10 Q. 37: "I did not participate in the creation of the SDS at the BiH

11 level. Although I was then president of the Zabrdje SSRN (Socialist

12 Alliance of the Working People), I did take part in forming the local SDS

13 in Zabrdje and Smiljevic (two small communities) and I announced that my

14 mandate was about to expire due to the creation of the multi-party system

15 and the first multi-party elections. During this farewell meeting, it was

16 suggested to those assembled to express their views as to which party they

17 wanted to see formed. The people of Zabrdje and Smiljevic decided to

18 choose a party by voting. Due to the fact that almost 100 per cent of the

19 inhabitants of these two communities were Serbs, they opted for the SDS.

20 That party then became embraced as the movement of the Serbian people.

21 The decision was adopted after the SDS was formed on July 12, 1990. I do

22 not recall the precise date, but it must have been shortly thereafter."

23 Do you have any change to that paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik?

24 A. Yes. Behind the part of the sentence where it says: "Due to the

25 fact that almost 100 per cent of the inhabitants of these two communities

Page 23001

1 were Serbs," that should be corrected. Not all the people from Smiljevici

2 and Zabrdje were Serbs, but all the people or almost all the people at

3 that meeting, at that rally, were Serbs. That was the meaning.

4 Q. 38: "Citizens didn't elect the president of the organising

5 committee but, rather, asked me to set up another meeting, which I did,

6 thus helping them to form the Zabrdje branch of SDS. I was then invited

7 to take part in the work of the organising committee for the Sarajevo

8 municipality Novi Grad. I learned subsequently that the reason for this

9 invitation was the result of a disagreement in the Novi Grad SDS Municipal

10 Board. The parties in dispute literally forced me to accept the position

11 of the organising committee Presidency and to remain in this position

12 until the next elections, which I did. During my mandate, I didn't have

13 contacts with the party leadership. I didn't wish to get involved

14 politically, nor did anybody invite me to do so. What occurred was but a

15 conjunction of circumstances."

16 39: "Since the circumstances were different, I did take part in

17 SDS electoral preparations in Novi Grad. I was granted a special status

18 and treatment by members of the SDS Board because I was extremely busy

19 with work at my firm and because of my wife's illness. For those reasons

20 I was not involved to any great extent in the preparations that lasted for

21 about a month."

22 "After the signing of the Dayton Agreement, I headed the

23 commission for its implementation on the Serbian side.

24 "From 1996 to 1998 I was elected member of the Presidency

25 representing the Republika Srpska. In order to become a candidate for

Page 23002

1 this position, I was subjected to all of the checks deemed necessary by

2 international supervisors."

3 We're talking there, aren't we, Mr. Krajisnik, of the

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. 42: "While a member of the Presidency, I met with numerous

7 international representatives, including presidents of the most

8 influential countries in the world (former Prime Minister John Major,

9 Prime Minister Tony Blair, former President Bill Clinton, President Kohl,

10 President Jacques Chirac, Russian Prime Minister Chernomirdin, et cetera."

11 Paragraph 43: "After 1998 and until my arrest in 2000, I was in

12 private business.

13 44: "I was arrested on the 3rd of April, 2000 on the basis of a

14 sealed indictment."

15 The statement stops there, Mr. Krajisnik, and you have -- you were

16 brought straight away to The Hague and you have been detained here in the

17 United Nations Detention Unit ever since April of 2000. That's correct,

18 isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Mr. Krajisnik.

21 Your Honours, the sensible course seems to be for us to have that

22 typed up to reflect Mr. Krajisnik's changes. And then, if we may, when

23 that's done then give it back to him in that typed up form and then he

24 could, assuming he is then happy with all those amendments, he could then

25 sign that typed up version. Would that suit Your Honours and --

Page 23003

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that seems to be a reasonable course to follow.

2 So therefore you -- you will produce an amended version now in accordance

3 with the amendments made.

4 Mr. Krajisnik, the translation will be prepared and we'll finally

5 ask Mr. Krajisnik to sign that copy. Apart from that, it is already on

6 the record because it has been read out.


8 JUDGE ORIE: So even without signing the same would be true and it

9 could be admitted into evidence.

10 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. We're not trying to --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Even if one could wonder whether it's necessary at

12 all, since all the words have been read and all the amendments. But

13 perhaps it's good to have a document which reflects the original text and

14 all the amendments made by Mr. Krajisnik.

15 MR. STEWART: Well, thank you, Your Honour. It would seem to be

16 good practice.

17 Your Honour, since I -- well, I believe it's going to be necessary

18 to have a break between when we came back and when we finish. Would Your

19 Honours think this was the right point to have it?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the matter is whether we need another break.

21 I'm looking at the technicians and the interpreters. Because we had a

22 break 40 minutes relatively early. Then although I announced 15 minutes'

23 break, that took a little bit over half an hour, and as far as the tapes

24 are concerned, I think we could continue until quarter to 2.00.

25 MR. STEWART: May I remind Your Honour that we have all been here

Page 23004

1 all that time, that during what may have been a break actually most of the

2 people have actually been here all that time. I don't want to appear to

3 be weedy about it, Your Honour, but again it's the same point, both

4 Mr. Krajisnik and my team. The interpreters are entitled to their breaks,

5 but everybody will have gone a very long time by quarter to 2.00.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the first break was not 37 minutes but 47

7 minutes finally, upon your request, the second break was announced for 15

8 minutes. That makes a total of one hour and two minutes, which is more

9 than usual during the morning. I do understand that you are busy during

10 the breaks, where the -- I'll consult with my colleagues.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: The total of the breaks this morning will be one hour

13 and 12 minutes. We'll have a break of ten minutes.

14 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 --- Recess taken at 1.07 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 1.24 p.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.

18 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, do you recall that in May 1991 you were invited on

20 to a television programme in Sarajevo called Club 91?

21 A. I recall that.

22 Q. And that -- it was a one-to-one interview of you as the president

23 of the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina for quite a long time, an hour

24 and a half, something like that, political interview. Is that correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 23005

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --

2 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Krajisnik.

3 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, we have -- we've got a DVD of the

4 interview. We aren't for one moment suggesting that we play it for an

5 hour and a half. What we are proposing to do, Your Honour, is to play it

6 for just a very few minutes so that Your Honours can see it, can get the

7 flavour, and then of course we have the transcripts.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We have transcripts. You prepared transcripts of

9 those portions or ...

10 MR. STEWART: Of the whole programme.


12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we'll play only smaller portions. And I

14 take it --

15 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I wasn't even going to ask, but

16 of course I'm in the -- if the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution -- the

17 Prosecution have submissions or the Trial Chamber, I wasn't going to ask

18 even to play the portions that I wish to refer to. The Defence's position

19 is that it would be quite adequate for Your Honours just to see the first

20 few minutes, to see the format, the flavour, because it doesn't really

21 change, Your Honour, the --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And of course the -- if the Prosecution would

23 be of a different opinion, then of course if the atmosphere of the flavour

24 would be different than any other portions, they are free to play

25 whatever --

Page 23006

1 MR. STEWART: We have no resistance whatever, Your Honour, to

2 other parts being played if anybody -- but we do not propose that that's

3 necessary.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please then proceed.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]: "Dear viewers, good evening. This

7 is Club 91 and, as you have heard, our guest this evening is Momcilo

8 Krajisnik, president of the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Welcome

9 and thank you for coming to Club 91. You have a masters degree but we

10 rarely hear about it. You have a masters in economic sciences. Is that

11 so?

12 "Krajisnik: Yes.

13 "Presenter: You are a man who started his career in Energoinvest

14 where you worked for many years?

15 "Krajisnik: Yes.

16 "Presenter: "An Energoinvest man, old and loyal, I would say ...


18 "Krajisnik: Yes, both a loyal and old Energoinvest man.

19 "Presenter: You were not involved in politics before, at least

20 not in a very active way. Or were you?

21 "Krajisnik: Well, if you discount that I was a member of the

22 Socialist Alliance, an Assemblyman in the City Assembly, I was not

23 particularly involved in politics until this election as deputy in the

24 republican Assembly.

25 "Presenter: And now you are president of the Assembly of Bosnia

Page 23007

1 and Herzegovina, at this time. Tell me, what was your personal motivation

2 in accepting this exceptionally responsible and difficult post in these

3 difficult times?

4 "Krajisnik: Well, this is probably difficult to explain. It is

5 more to do with man and his nature, and I wanted in these difficult

6 moments to be a member of my people. And as things turned out, I wanted

7 to be only a member of the Serbian Democratic Party and simply to

8 participate as a human being as much as I would be able to help. And then

9 one thing happened after another, and I didn't want to be a deputy and

10 especially not the president of the Assembly, and everything happened more

11 or less suddenly and more or less against my will. But that is the kind

12 of man I am. So when I am committed to something and when I am elected by

13 someone, or when they show me confidence, then I want to justify that.

14 "Presenter: You are one of those republican officials who, it

15 seems to me, as far as I have contact with people and information about

16 that, who has been accepted by the public with quite a lot of

17 understanding and sympathy. And in that respect I think that there are no

18 particular national divisions about you. I think that your reputation has

19 been growing with the number of sessions that are broadcast which often

20 confuse the public, but few people refrain from complimenting you on your

21 patience in chairing these sessions. I am trying actually to ask you

22 this: Should the parliament look the way it looks? Is the criticism

23 justified that their discussions, not to say arguments conducted there are

24 pointless, or that that is simply a type of parliamentary debate that we

25 are not used to and which possibly prevails everywhere in democracy?"

Page 23008

1 "Krajisnik: Well, as regards your assessments" --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar, could a number be assigned?

3 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D177.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That would be for the video. And D177A for the

5 B/C/S -- do we have a B/C/S transcript?

6 MR. STEWART: Yes, we do, Your Honour. Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. D177A for the original B/C/S transcript and

8 D177A.1 for the English translation.

9 Yes.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, two minor matters or practical matters.

11 The transcript in English that Your Honours have, it does occasionally say

12 on it, there's an example at the very top of page 2: "Handwritten note in

13 the margin of the last paragraph in English: Election as deputy and

14 President of Assembly."

15 Do Your Honours see that?


17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the explanation of that is that this

18 was submitted for translation by our case manager who had made some

19 relatively modest notes on the document. So of course in the entirely

20 proper way the translation service translated -- if it doesn't move,

21 translate it, they translated everything. Your Honour, there are --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that the -- the copies you would provide to

23 the registrar, that this will be taken out, perhaps by a marker or

24 something like that. And then -- then you provide a B/C/S original

25 without these comments as well. And I don't think that there's any need

Page 23009

1 that it will be reproduced seven or six times. It's clear to us now that

2 whatever refers to any handwriting is work product which should not be

3 considered.

4 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour, that's very practical.

5 Your Honour is absolutely right, it is very clear actually where these

6 notes come up, and they're actually pretty harmless, it seems, but we

7 didn't want to be hiding them.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The registrar has not received yet the B/C/S

9 copy. Could it be provided to him later today or at this very moment?

10 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, we've got -- subject to any

11 photocopying difficulties in the back there, we can do that. No problem

12 at all.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

14 Mr. Registrar, you will be provided with D177A in B/C/S today.

15 Yes.

16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've done one other practical thing,

17 which we hope will have the Trial Chamber's approval, which we propose to

18 adopt quite frequently. In order, as quickly as possible, to go to the

19 relevant passage in the B/C/S version when I'm examining from the English

20 version, I have taken the liberty of numbering, and for my own private

21 purposes I do it on my copy, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, and

22 so on, the points which I'm going to go to, and so the B/C/S has just

23 numbers, Your Honour, at those points in the text in the margin with no

24 other comment, no other marking, just the number, so I that I would, for

25 example, say to Mr. Krajisnik: Can you find number 1 in the margin? And

Page 23010

1 that will take us quickly to that passage.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would then refer to us so that we can

3 add on our own copies in order to better be able to follow.

4 MR. STEWART: Of course.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And finally, for -- if it would ever come to that

6 point, if ever an Appeals Chamber would have to consider this evidence, I

7 would like you to add those numbers on the originals but not asking for

8 any further translation, though that's handwriting, but that should

9 remain.

10 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So that we have one copy and that it's easy for

12 everyone to identify the portions on which questions are put.

13 MR. STEWART: Yes. Your Honour, in practice it becomes

14 increasingly difficult to find copies without the numbers as time goes on,

15 so they --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That used to be a very handy instrument to get

17 rid of.

18 MR. STEWART: Yes. We will follow Your Honour's proposal there.

19 What I'm not a hundred per cent sure about now, Mr. Krajisnik, is

20 whether you have in fact got with you in the witness box that B/C/S

21 transcript with those numbers?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have them, Mr. Krajisnik? Yes, Mr. Krajisnik

23 is nodding yes.

24 Yes, Mr. Stewart.

25 MR. STEWART: Yes.

Page 23011

1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, if the system is working you should be able to find

2 the number 3 in the margin quite early on -- I'm sorry, the number 1, I

3 beg your pardon, a simple system, in the margin. You're nodding. You've

4 found that, have you?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, the --

7 JUDGE ORIE: And then for us, Mr. Stewart.

8 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, yes, indeed, straight away. It's

9 page 3 of the English, Your Honour.


11 MR. STEWART: And it's the first answer by Mr. Krajisnik right in

12 the middle of the page: "There will probably be viewers ..."



15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, do stop me straight away if you're not immediately

16 following exactly where we are in the -- in the text. But I don't think

17 it will be a problem for you.

18 So short question from the presenter. It says: "You came to this

19 post as a member of the SDS. It should and do you feel like the president

20 of the Assembly ... of all deputies?"

21 And then your answer, which I will read, Mr. Krajisnik: "There

22 will probably be viewers who will not believe that I truly feel ... not

23 that I am the president for everyone but that I do everything as if I am

24 the president for every citizen in this Bosnia and Herzegovina of ours, in

25 fact our Bosnia-Herzegovina people. That is to say, my activities are

Page 23012

1 that I do not want to do anything that is particularly against the

2 interests of any people. Because according to any principle, moral,

3 according to ... as our people say, according to local custom, to do an

4 injustice, that is, that is an evil which can feed only the person who

5 really in their sound like does not feel what it means to do an injustice

6 and what it means to have an injustice done to him. I therefore think

7 that a man cannot do the job of the president of the Assembly and be at

8 any post, any post in Bosnia and Herzegovina, if he does not eliminate

9 everything that is party-based and do his utmost," that's a misprint in

10 the English, Your Honours, it's got to be the single word: "Utmost

11 objectively for all the peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

12 And then we get one of those handwritten notes which should come

13 out.



16 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, in particular there your expression that: "A man

17 cannot do the job of the president of the Assembly and be in any post, any

18 post in Bosnia and Herzegovina, if he does not eliminate everything that

19 is party-based," did this approach, as you have described it there --

20 first of all, did that genuinely represent your position?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did that position of yours, as you described it there, gain

23 support from your SDS colleagues?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Then do you see the number 2, just further down, further along?

Page 23013

1 It should be very shortly after the number 1. Do you see that?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Stewart?

4 MR. STEWART: I beg your pardon, Your Honour?

5 JUDGE ORIE: For us where do we find number 2.

6 MR. STEWART: Yes. It's Krajisnik: "I'm of the opinion that at

7 all times" -- I'm not always going to read the question, Your Honour,

8 because it doesn't always help to do that and it speeds things along.

9 "I am of the opinion that at all times my position as president

10 of the Assembly must be clearly on the table, for any deputy to assess it

11 and can give an objective opinion about it to see if I am working in a

12 good way objectively, if I am president for everyone and so on ... Thus,

13 at that moment and in the future, I would never want to be president of

14 the Assembly if one of the partners primarily, was against, or if such

15 a ... such hostility was created, with the criticism that I am not working

16 in the way that God demands, is that right ... as for quality, I think,

17 that at all times there should be an interest in the party itself that

18 that be done by the person who knows how to do it the best. As for bias,

19 everyone must decide on that. It is very ruinous in this democracy if we

20 have in posts, any post in Bosnia and Herzegovina, people who think that

21 it is solely their aim to protect their people through the party,

22 exclusively without paying attention to some objective circumstances --

23 what is possible and what is just..."

24 And then there is another handwritten note that comes out.

25 Mr. Krajisnik, first of all, when you say about six or seven lines

Page 23014

1 into that answer you say: "I would never want to be president of the

2 Assembly if one of the partners primarily was against ..."

3 In referring to "the partners," who were you meaning?

4 A. Here I am primarily referring to the SDA and the HDZ, because I

5 believe that the opposition can be against things even if I'm working

6 properly. Because it is in the interest of the opposition to topple the

7 government.

8 Q. And when you say -- further on in the same answer you say: "It is

9 very ruinous in this democracy if we have in posts any posts in Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina people who think that it is solely their aim to protect their

11 people."

12 First of all, did you have in mind any particular people who did

13 at that time, in your view, think it was solely their aim to protect their

14 people?

15 A. At that time, as a rule, the representative of a party that was in

16 government would think that it is in his interest only to protect the

17 interests of his own people, his own ethnic group, not of all. But he

18 actually represents all the peoples, the Serbs, the Croats, the Muslims.

19 What I meant here was that it would be ruinous if somebody were to be a

20 candidate on behalf of the SDS or the HDZ or the SDA and protect only the

21 interests of that people or that party. Everyone should do their job

22 properly, and in that way they will protect the interests of all.

23 Q. Within your own party, the SDS, were there people who, in your

24 view at that time, thought it was solely their aim to protect their

25 people, the Serbs?

Page 23015

1 A. That question, in a way, requires a more extensive answer, perhaps

2 because it's somewhat equivocal. Every representative of the SDS thought

3 that it was the Serb people who should be protected, but the SDA protected

4 the Muslim people, the HDZ the Croatian people. However, in the SDS there

5 were some extreme phenomena, if I can put it that way. Let things be good

6 for the Serbs and let the others fare for themselves, but these people

7 were a minority. The absolute majority supported the line that I

8 advocated and that is referred to here.

9 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are close to quarter to 2.00.

11 Mr. Krajisnik, we'll finish for the day. I instruct you, as every

12 other witness, not to -- you could perhaps even speak the words yourself,

13 not to speak with anyone about the testimony you have given today and

14 you're still about to give, not the coming days but the coming weeks. So

15 that's the instruction, and we'd like to see you back then of course

16 tomorrow morning in this same courtroom at 9.00.

17 We'll adjourn for the day.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of

20 April, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.