Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24006

1 Monday, 15 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I would like to remind you you're

13 still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given already some time

14 ago at the beginning of your testimony.

15 Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.

16 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. May I mention one thing

17 which I just mentioned to the Prosecution, Your Honour? We would like, if

18 we may, that's Defence counsel, to have just a very brief opportunity to

19 see Mr. Krajisnik in the first break today to discuss practical team

20 matters, Your Honour, not -- naturally not anything to do with the

21 evidence, but from time to time there are such things.

22 JUDGE ORIE: From the body language of the Prosecution, I do

23 understand that if it's limited to practical team matters there is no

24 objection, so you're allowed to do so.

25 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 24007

1 Examination by Mr. Stewart [Continued]

2 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, good morning. We were looking on --

3 MR. STEWART: Oh, Your Honour, may I mention one other thing, just

4 thinking ahead?


6 MR. STEWART: We're going to come at some point to the 16th

7 session of the assembly -- the Bosnian Serb Assembly held on the 12th of

8 May and in advance of getting there, Your Honour, I just want -- try to --

9 wanted to head off any possible difficulty about different versions of

10 that document. The one that I'm proposing to work from is the one which

11 is exhibited as tab 612 to P64A of Mr. Treanor's evidence or --

12 exhibits -- or -- by Mr. Treanor, minutes and stenographic records, and

13 the ERN that I have for that is 00847711. So, Your Honour, I either now

14 or if at any point anybody alerts me that there's any difficulties about

15 that, we'll -- we'll investigate.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We have a different version in our bundle that we're

17 using at this moment.

18 MR. STEWART: The English translation -- the English translation

19 may have the number 01908511.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is very familiar to me. That at least

21 I've got in front of me. And we still hope that this is the translation

22 of that other document.

23 MR. STEWART: Good. Thank you for that, Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, we were looking at the minutes of the council

25 meeting of what was described as Council for National Security and the

Page 24008

1 Government of Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 22nd of

2 April, 1992, and I was coming to what's headed "Item 4, conclusions and

3 information." Do you see that heading? Thank you.

4 And then point 2, is that the government of, and I was just coming

5 to that and there was a certain amount of confusion, but government of BH,

6 and that must be Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, appoint a war

7 Presidency and war executive committees in all municipalities where

8 executive committees are not functioning.

9 Mr. Krajisnik, are you able from your recollection to cast any

10 light on what was the -- what you understood to be the state and level of

11 functioning of executive committees in municipalities in Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina?

13 A. In many municipalities the authorities were not really

14 functioning, if I can put it that way. There were no legal authorities of

15 government. The Executive Council, that is to say the government of the

16 municipality, and the Assembly were not operating due to war operations.

17 There was an idea that the government had and that has to do with yet

18 another document that was there before this document, if I remember well.

19 Q. That document being what?

20 A. Well, it was Mrs. Plavsic who signed instructions to the War

21 Presidencies before that decision was actually adopted. I have those

22 instructions here with me, I think, and the OTP has it too. This is

23 directly the prime minister and the ministers who talked to her as member

24 of the Presidency, and she signed these instructions without a proper

25 decision actually having been passed. As far as I can remember, the

Page 24009

1 decision was passed only on the 31st of May. I beg your pardon. This is

2 the first idea of this kind that came from the government, that something

3 like that should be introduced in municipalities while crisis staffs were

4 still in existence.

5 Let me just way one more thing. On the other side the same thing

6 existed. So -- how should I put this? It was like children in school.

7 They were copying things off each other. If one side had something, then

8 the other side would hear, "A-ha they have War Presidency, we need to have

9 them as well," then they would establish them. That's the way it went.

10 I'm sorry, there's something else I would like to say. In the

11 constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina a body of this kind that had been

12 envisaged, too, so that's probably what they had in mind.

13 Q. Now, there are -- there are three animals, if you like, here,

14 Mr. Krajisnik, that might have been under consideration. We've heard lots

15 of mention of Crisis Staffs. Here we see in item 2 a reference to

16 executive committees and the question of whether they're functioning, and

17 then we see war executive committees. I'm just going to leave War

18 Presidency on one side.

19 What -- what did you understand to be the differences in the

20 practical operation at this point between a Crisis Staff, an Executive

21 Committee, and a War Executive Committee?

22 A. I explained last time that a Crisis Staff is established. That

23 had already become a customary method when there would be a crisis, when

24 there would be a state of emergency. Then quite simply a group of people

25 gets together. Usually it's the most responsible from the area, and they

Page 24010

1 carry out activities aimed at resolving the crisis.

2 As for the municipal Presidency which comes up throughout this

3 case all the time, that should be a smaller body consisting of the top

4 people from the municipality. How should I put this? In a non-democratic

5 way but in a necessary way they would be guiding everyone through the

6 crisis. Crisis Staffs were established on the basis of inertia, whereas

7 this was based on a document, on the law, and people knew who it was who

8 was supposed to be on this Presidency.

9 As per the Executive Council, that is a body of the Municipal

10 Assembly elected by the Municipal Assembly, and it is a legal organ based

11 on the constitution. The Presidency is based on a decision passed by the

12 Presidency at the proposal of the government.

13 As for War Presidency, that is an invented name.

14 What am I trying to say? Since there was a war conflict going on,

15 then one had to adjust to the situation, and that terminology was,

16 therefore, used as well. Times of war, War Presidency, I don't know what

17 else. So people who wrote documents, minutes, and so on, did not directly

18 adhere to terminology, did not really try not to make any terminological

19 mistakes. But there was no such thing as a War Presidency. There would

20 not have been any such name, whereas in documents such a name is often

21 recorded.

22 Q. The -- is it -- is it correct as this minute seems to imply that

23 where there was a functioning Executive Committee in a municipality it was

24 considered at this point that there was no need to take the step of

25 establishing a War Presidency or a War Executive Committee?

Page 24011

1 A. Again, I'd like to draw your attention to something. I never

2 heard of a War Executive Committee of the War Presidency. This is the

3 time before the possibility of introducing a state of war was even looked

4 into. There was a crisis. A war conflict had broken out, an armed

5 conflict had broken out, so appropriate terminology was used. So this

6 name is inappropriate, this idea that the government appoint, et cetera,

7 et cetera. It wasn't done by the government. It was the Presidency that

8 passed this kind of decision later on. An act, as a matter of fact. But

9 this was the decision that was reached at the time. It was more of a

10 declarative nature.

11 What you are asking about, whether it was supposed to be

12 introduced where the government was actually functioning, no, it wasn't

13 necessary. But very often it was introduced. It was established because

14 people at local level did that for two reasons. One is that it -- that

15 it's much easier to work when there are only five people there, although

16 this is not exactly recommendable and not very democratic, rather than

17 convening Assemblies, executive committees, and so on.

18 The second reason was that there were poor communications. So

19 people thought that locally they should have presidencies, although there

20 were no war operations at local level. So legal organs could have

21 functioned normally.

22 There was yet another problem. Many people were at the front

23 line, so indeed there was a problem. It wasn't easy to convene municipal

24 Assemblies and to have these authorities operating. There were examples

25 when the Executive Committees were working in this Presidency, whatever

Page 24012

1 you call it. They both worked and then they would even clash. They

2 didn't know who was doing what. Quite simply, it was a state of bad

3 confusion and poor communications, although that's not the way it should

4 have been.

5 Q. And then the next item in these minutes is, "That the ministers of

6 the MUP and national defence were to submit daily reports on the situation

7 in the field on the establishment of possible accountability of the

8 measures taken."

9 Mr. Krajisnik, did you from this point onwards receive daily

10 reports on the situation in the field in accordance with this minute?

11 A. First of all, I don't remember. I could have received something

12 informally. I could have been informed by someone at that meetings, but I

13 could not have received reports and I did not receive reports. At any

14 rate, not quality reports. But I do not recall any reports, because these

15 ministers did not have information and, therefore, they could not have

16 provided any information further at this meeting which was called what it

17 was called. And I myself did not receive any such thing. Somebody could

18 have informed me at this gathering. But if I was informed at the

19 gathering, then that should have been in the minutes, whether everybody

20 was informed. Nobody had the report of right -- nobody had the

21 opportunity of writing reports and sending them out to people. There

22 weren't any proper communications, and quite simply these ministers were

23 cut off. This was an ongoing obligation, but an obligation that could not

24 have been carried out. Or at any rate, if somebody received such reports,

25 I don't know about that.

Page 24013

1 However, on the basis of all these indicators, I see that no one

2 received such reports and I certainly did not.

3 Q. And item 4 case under this heading "That the minister of the MUP

4 submit a daily report on the security situation in the territory of the

5 Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

6 Mr. Krajisnik, what -- what was the difference in practical terms

7 between a report on the situation in the field and a report on the

8 security situation?

9 A. I believe there wasn't any difference. In these minutes the

10 Ministry of the Interior is being dealt with separately - how should I put

11 this? - because they had a better infrastructure before the war. And it

12 was believed that they had better possibilities of obtaining information

13 in order to relay it further. Everything is the security situation, and

14 everything is the situation in the field. Nobody's interested in what's

15 going on in Pale or wherever, or what is going on throughout the

16 territory. This can best be seen through the correspondence between the

17 minister and his subordinates. At that time, he did not even have the

18 most elementary information about the situation in the field.

19 Q. Now, can we -- the minister of the -- the minister of the MUP, as

20 referred to in number 4, that was Mr. Stanisic, was it, rather than any

21 deputy of his?

22 A. Yes. Mico Stanisic.

23 Q. And the minister of defence as referred to in paragraph 3 was

24 Mr. Subotic, wasn't it, Bogdan Subotic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24014

1 Q. Is it possible to say, Mr. Krajisnik, which of those two, Stanisic

2 and Subotic, if one was better informed, appeared to you to be better

3 informed about what was actually happening in -- by way of conflict in the

4 field in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

5 A. I had the impression that neither of them were. This is

6 demonstrated by the information that from the 24th of April until

7 September at least 10 or 15 meetings were held by the government or the

8 Presidency dealing with the situation in the field and the situation

9 concerning prisoners or detainees. An appropriate answer was never

10 received.

11 At this time, the ministry of defence had the armed people, as I

12 already said, and the Yugoslav People's Army.

13 Now, what was the name of this? The Municipal Councils of

14 national defence. They, however, were not really linked up, and I don't

15 think that he had any information. So there was no information at this

16 meetings. The minister of the MUP had some infrastructure from before

17 because the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina had existed, but I saw here, and I

18 know indeed that when we attended these morning meetings sometimes people

19 would say sort of what they heard, what they knew in some way. But as for

20 high-quality information, we could not receive any.

21 I beg your pardon. One more thing. How should I put this?

22 Perhaps I'm going to use a very ugly word. There were a lot of lies

23 bandied about, and sometimes you'd receive some information that would

24 shock you, and then the following day you would see that this never

25 happened. So what they gave was on the basis of arbitrary receipt of

Page 24015

1 information rather than high-quality information. As far as I can

2 remember those times, later on the situation was improved but not very

3 considerably.

4 Q. Was -- were you able to form any assessment at this point on the

5 22nd of April as to whether the -- the war, and you have yourself said in

6 your evidence that the war had started by this time, whether the war was

7 going well or badly for you, the Bosnian Serbs?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, before the witness answers the question,

9 could we seek in his previous answer, he said there were no war operations

10 at the local level, and therefore there was no need to -- I'm just trying

11 to -- to better understand a question in which it's stated that

12 Mr. Krajisnik said that the war had started, and at the same time that he

13 says there was no war operations at the local level in his previous

14 answer. Sorry, yes?

15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wasn't -- didn't have in mind his

16 very recent answers. I had in mind --


18 MR. STEWART: -- answers he's given earlier, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Fine, but therefore I want to better understand what

20 his previous answer was.

21 MR. STEWART: Absolutely.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, in your previous answer, you said

23 there were no local war operations, and you said that -- explained why

24 there was no need for a -- let me just find your words literally.

25 You said "the people thought that locally they should have

Page 24016

1 Presidency although there were no war operations at local levels, so legal

2 organs could have functioned normally. So that suggests that there were

3 no war operations at local level, and at the same time, we have, as

4 reflected in the question by Mr. Stewart, that you accepted that the war

5 had started by then. Could you please explain to me what -- how I have to

6 understand this?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm a little concerned about

8 interpretation in that case. I said municipalities existed in which there

9 were no war operations. Deep into the territory, for instance, and local

10 authorities were able to function. So maybe somebody left out my sentence

11 where I said that there were municipalities where there were no war

12 operations and where government was able to function.

13 However, people from those municipalities went to other

14 municipalities, to the front line to defend the line, although the

15 distances are small. You remember Prnjavor and such municipalities where

16 there were no war operations going on locally. However, the unit from

17 that place would go 100 kilometres further to defend that area. So that's

18 why I said in Prnjavor the government was able to function. In Banja Luka

19 as well. Because in that particular municipality, there was no war.

20 However, people even from there went to the front line.

21 And war operations did go on. They were under way in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. You're absolutely right.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's good that I asked for clarification,

24 because that now, as you said, means that I had not fully understood that

25 previous answer, which I now understand to be that in some municipalities

Page 24017

1 there were no war operations, so there was no need, at least there, to

2 introduce any of these bodies, because the legal organs could have

3 functioned in those municipalities normally.

4 Thank you for the clarification.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, again I had a wrong

6 interpretation. You said in some operations there were no war operations.

7 You probably meant to say that in some municipalities there were no war

8 operations. I just want this to be known.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think by carefully reading and listening to

10 the answers sometimes inevitable mistakes, because I would not wish to be

11 in one of the booths and have to translate constantly the language spoken

12 by persons who now and then speak too fast. So, therefore, simultaneous

13 translation is -- is done excellently, but as every human effort is not

14 without mistakes, and therefore by carefully listening and reading, I

15 think we can identify what it is wherever there is any misunderstanding.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

17 MR. STEWART: They probably wouldn't want to do our jobs either,

18 Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, the question I was asking you a few moments ago was

20 whether on that footing any assessment was made at this time of whether

21 the war was going well or badly for you, the Bosnian Serbs.

22 A. I do not remember that any assessment was made. At any rate, the

23 only assessment could have been made in the area where we were in the

24 vicinity, like around Sarajevo.

25 We got very short, very brief unconfirmed reports from the ground,

Page 24018

1 so we were not able -- it was not possible to make an assessment. The

2 only thing that was known was in which municipality there were Muslim

3 armed forces, in which municipalities there were Serb armed forces.

4 That's the only information we were able to get. And we didn't think

5 about losses or whether we won or not. We only thought about how to

6 continue negotiations in order to find a solution. The only thing that

7 mattered was to save lives on the ground, and we were hoping for continued

8 negotiations.

9 Q. Now, these minutes, can we go right to the very end of these

10 particular minutes, Mr. Krajisnik, are shown as signed by Dr. Karadzic as

11 president of the council. Did the fact that they were signed by Dr.

12 Karadzic necessarily confirm that he had been at that meeting?

13 A. As a rule, that should be the case, but in a number of instances

14 it was established that he signed such and similar minutes, although he

15 had not been present and he signed them subsequently, because this was

16 supposed to be a pro memoria for a morning briefing of consultative nature

17 where all the parties would go to their job and this would be an

18 aide-memoire in case anybody had obligations arising from that, and they

19 should take care of that. But in several instances he signed minutes of

20 meetings that he did not attend.

21 Q. Can we move on, please. Could you be given --

22 A. If I may, just one little tiny comment. I want to draw your

23 attention to one passage.

24 Q. Please, Mr. Krajisnik.

25 A. On page 2, we find an explanation to the effect that an order was

Page 24019

1 given to limit the increase -- sorry, to limit withdrawals of cash. I

2 want to remind you that we heard witnesses here who had said that there

3 had been a law regarding how much money one could take out of a

4 municipality.

5 Concerning this issue, I just want to remind you that the

6 government discussed this matter in deciding the limit of cash one could

7 withdraw and take out of a municipality. Maybe it would be of assistance

8 to the Trial Chamber when they analyse the testimony they heard. This was

9 mentioned by Witness Radojko, if you remember.

10 That's all I wanted to say and I'm now at your disposal.

11 Q. Could we move on, Mr. Krajisnik, then to the minutes of the

12 meeting for the council of national security and the government held on

13 the 24th of April, 1992.

14 And that, Your Honours, is pound in P65A, binder 25, tab 684, and

15 the ERN is 01245302.

16 Do you have that, Mr. Krajisnik?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Just cast your eye over that sufficiently to be able to tell the

19 Trial Chamber whether you think you were at that meeting or not or whether

20 you can definitely say one way or the other.

21 A. I can only say that I believe that after this previous meeting we

22 discussed I attended all these other meetings. I believe I was at that

23 one too. I don't think I can confirm it absolutely, but the probability

24 is high that I attended.

25 Q. Now, if we look at the decisions that were taken -- you see the

Page 24020

1 heading "Decisions"?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the first one was a decision was passed on the formation of "a

4 TO Territorial Defence Town Staff from the former municipal TO

5 commanders."

6 Did that -- was that local to Pale, or was that something

7 affecting other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

8 A. May I just remind you, this only referred to Sarajevo

9 municipality, not only Pale. But I want to remind you that Mr. Karadzic

10 was in charge of coordinating this Territorial Defence. He was put in

11 charge of that at the previous meeting, so it was his obligation to

12 organise this through the organs of Territorial Defence.

13 Q. Were you involved in that task?

14 A. As far as I can remember, this decision was not adopted -- I mean,

15 it wasn't implemented. I wasn't consulted. It was only a discussion

16 about what should be done. It was decided that these armed people should

17 be put under control and some sort of organisation at town level should be

18 set up to coordinate, and a person was put in charge of that.

19 Q. Then a couple of items further on. You're specifically mentioned

20 as being in charge of contact with delegates from the Republic of

21 Macedonia. Was that -- well, was there such a visit by delegates from

22 Republic of Macedonia?

23 A. No. Now this reminds me. I don't remember attending a meeting

24 where something like that was entrusted to me. Maybe somebody put this in

25 subsequently. I don't remember. In any case, I didn't work on such a

Page 24021

1 decision -- on any such decision, nor was any such decision implemented.

2 Q. I note that I might have made an incorrect assumption that it

3 contemplated a visit to Republika Srpska from Macedonia, whereas it could

4 easily be the other way round.

5 MR. STEWART: But, Your Honours, in the light of the answer I'm

6 not proposing to pursue it anyway.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. The -- the last -- well, the last penultimate item on the English

10 but about four items down, after a reference to Dr. Aleksa Buha "A

11 decision was passed on the formation of a state commission for war crimes

12 and instructions were passed for the work of the commission." Do you see

13 that, Mr. Krajisnik?

14 A. Yes, yes, I see that.

15 Q. I can't say for absolute certain myself, Mr. Krajisnik, that

16 we've seen -- where there's a reference to war crimes in any of the

17 previous documents we've looked at. I don't recall it, but whether or not

18 that's absolutely correct, how had the matter of war crimes come onto the

19 agenda for this meeting?

20 A. Maybe you remember we heard witnesses here who said that a

21 commission had been set up to identify war crimes against Serbs, because

22 at that time the Muslim side also set up a commission to identify war

23 crimes against Muslims, and that commission was headed by Mr. Stjepan

24 Kljuic.

25 This decision speak -- speaks most eloquently, and it is obvious

Page 24022

1 that it is not a binding decision. It just identifies tasks that should

2 be performed. And if you remember one set of minutes from a government

3 session, the government later took that decision. We decided that that

4 should be done but that somebody else should do it, because it was in the

5 remit of the Presidency, not the government. And afterwards, such

6 decisions would be passed on to the Assembly if an Assembly session was

7 convened.

8 Q. Was it contemplated --

9 A. So this was actually set up at a session of the government.

10 Q. But at this meeting, as far as you recall, Mr. Krajisnik, was it

11 contemplated at this time that a state commission for war crimes would

12 look at war crimes only against Serbs or war crimes by whoever they were

13 committed?

14 A. As far as I remember, the purpose and the composition of the

15 commission was changed two or three times. You maybe remember that

16 Mr. Mandic was on that commission at one point.

17 This was actually a response to the move of the Muslim side, which

18 had covered the entire town with posters of war criminals. Everybody who

19 was at Pale at the time was a war criminal apparently. At that time, I

20 had still not resigned and I wasn't there, but I heard that a large number

21 of Serbs were being abused. So this was our response, and the idea was

22 for the commission to deal with the problems of the Serbs primarily, but

23 later it acquired another dimension, as mentioned by Mr. Trbojevic, namely

24 to investigate other crimes as well. However, it did not deal with crimes

25 against others or indeed against Serbs because there were five or six

Page 24023

1 places where that should have been done but nothing was done.

2 Simply this commission didn't work not only in terms of

3 investigating crimes against others but even in terms of it investigating

4 crimes against Serbs.

5 Q. At this time, 24th of April, had -- had you heard reports that you

6 regarded as reasonably reliable of war crimes having been committed?

7 A. I state here with full responsibility that the information that

8 reached me was only about crimes against Serbs. I now see that crimes

9 were committed against others, too, but all the reports that came to me

10 was about Serbs being abused, detained, tortured. And even those reports

11 were not official, through official channels, but more mouth-to-mouth

12 information. Nobody actually made any reports about crimes against other

13 ethnic communities.

14 Q. And then a couple of items on it says: "A decision --"

15 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue with that, could I ask one

16 question, otherwise it might slip out might have mind very quickly.

17 Mr. Krajisnik, the document -- the item just prior to the war

18 crimes committee says, and we've seen it a couple of times, a decision

19 to apply for admission into the conference on security and cooperation in

20 Europe.

21 We've seen that before, even in connection with recognition as a

22 state. I'm not familiar at moment with the exact terms of admission to

23 the members to the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe. I

24 don't know if you remember that time. Would you need to qualify as a

25 state to be admitted as a member? So whenever applications for membership

Page 24024

1 of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe are expressed,

2 that means a claim to be recognised as a state.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you are absolutely

4 right, and I can tell you why we were doing this. The expectation was

5 that talks and negotiations would continue and that Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina, which was completely divided by front lines, would be

7 admitted into the United Nations by fast-track procedure. So we wanted

8 just our voice to be heard regardless of being admitted into the CSE. And

9 we lacked support for such an action. We wanted both legitimacy and

10 legality. So this was sent as a declaration to make it known that there

11 are two or even three Bosnia and Herzegovinas, not just one. That was the

12 purpose of all activities at the time.

13 It's not that we didn't know what was required, but we just wanted

14 to show who the legitimate representative of Bosnia was, not only they.

15 We wrote Serb Republic of Bosnia. They used the name Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina. The third side was using Herzegovina. It's not that we

17 expected that somebody would recognise us and admit us into the CSE.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking you this question because I have to check

19 to see that exactly in time that I think that this is the third reference

20 to application of membership of -- of the conference on security and

21 cooperation in Europe. But I have to check that. It's my recollection

22 that you said there was no recollection about division at the moment

23 because we still accepted Bosnia and Herzegovina to be one state.

24 Therefore, I'm trying to reconcile these answers. At the one hand

25 accepting Bosnia and Herzegovina a being one state and therefore no

Page 24025

1 serious thoughts about division, and at the same time applying for

2 membership of organisations which would admit only states. That's the

3 reason why I'm asking.

4 And if you have any explanation at this moment, it would certainly

5 assist us.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll try to explain.

7 In Sarajevo, the only legitimate represent sir of Bosnia-Herzegovina

8 Mr. Izetbegovic was located. There was no Assembly, no government. All

9 members of the Presidency -- in fact, two members of the Presidency had

10 resigned, Serbs. Two Croat representatives, were Mr. Boras and Mr. Lasic.

11 Mr. Boras left. Lasic was replaced by Kljuic. Mr. Ejup Ganic lost his

12 grassroot support because there were no Yugoslavs left. Another one left

13 from Krajina.

14 So you have one man saying, "I am Bosnia-Herzegovina." And he

15 submits requests and applications and holds himself out to be Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina. So on the 7th of April, in response to that recognition,

17 which was unconstitutional, proclaimed the Serb Republic of Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina as an independent state. That was a political move. And you

19 will see from this first platform, the one before this, that we discussed

20 how we wanted negotiations and what was going on before to the effect that

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina was one.

22 But who was the real representative of Bosnia now, Mr. Izetbegovic

23 or Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Koljevic and I? We felt that somebody should

24 identify the legitimate representative of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Our

25 only objective was to continue negotiations. Not for a second did we wish

Page 24026

1 to divide Bosnia in practice.

2 When I said that Bosnia was divided, I meant by front lines.

3 That's what I meant. But, please, even from the platform of Mr. Karadzic,

4 that was before the session of that council, and on the 12th as well, we

5 kept saying let's transform Bosnia in order to arrive at a political

6 solution. All that we did was aimed at forcing the other side to continue

7 negotiations to find a political solution. There was absolutely no

8 mention of -- of a new platform that it should be an independent Serb

9 republic. These were just moves aimed at spurring the other side.

10 If there was any misunderstanding and -- in clarity, I really want

11 to -- to help you to understand this, because it's important to understand

12 it. You can see from the sessions of the Presidency that it was all like

13 I'm presenting it. There were no Assemblies and no governments in their

14 territories, and yet they were all and we were nothing.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the Presiding

17 Judge for having clarified this.


19 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, then there is a decision that was passed on making

20 a complete register of weapons. Do you see that?

21 A. Yes, I've brought it -- or, rather, I've found it.

22 Q. Weapons taken over from Faletici on determining the issuing and

23 storing of part of the equipment and weapons currently not being used,

24 Radovan Karadzic in charge." Were you involved in that issue?

25 A. I was not involved, but I know what this was about.

Page 24027

1 Q. What is it about?

2 A. Several witnesses testified here, so I would like to remind the

3 Trial Chamber. Faletici was on Muslim territory, practically on the very

4 boundary or on the separation line. That is where a big military

5 warehouse was.

6 Now, part of the weapons were taken by these Serb territorials

7 because there were several hangars there, as far as I understood things,

8 and another part was taken by the Muslims. Now, what the armed people

9 took was simply taken home. That's the information we received, that

10 people took this home. And then what was stayed was that was not

11 possible, that records have to be kept of this so that it would not be

12 used in an improper way.

13 So it's this weaponry from Faletici taken away by the Serbs that

14 is -- that is what is referred to here. And the part that the Muslims

15 took or the part that stayed there is what I don't know about because

16 that if an estimate remained in their territory. But during the first

17 part, the Serb territorials barged in and took these weapons.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, one additional question.

19 Just for my orientation, Mr. Krajisnik, Faletici is to be situated

20 at the front line, you said, but where approximately? Let's start from

21 Stari Grad. Would it be south, north, east, west?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] North of the old town, at the mouth

23 of the Moscanica river, or, rather the source of the river. That's where

24 this urban area -- rather, rural area. Well, Faletici, a Muslim

25 settlement. Well, there's a part that's Serbian -- well, that's where the

Page 24028

1 warehouse is. I can show this very easily on the map if you're

2 interested. So it's on that separation line. On no-man's land. That's

3 it was. But it's a Muslim as settlement.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So it must be a couple of kilometres from what I

5 still remember where the confrontation lines -- a couple of kilometres

6 north from Stari Grad.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Perhaps two kilometres. I

8 don't know, something like that. But it can be seen on the map.

9 JUDGE ORIE: No. That's clear enough. Please proceed.


11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, why -- why was Dr. Karadzic put in charge of this

12 particular issue?

13 A. Well, if you remember that as far as the coordination of command

14 over the Territorial Defence is concerned, and of the MUP, I think,

15 Mr. Karadzic was entrusted with that at the last meeting, I think. He

16 didn't have this function, but he was in charge of coordination. So of

17 course - how should I put this? - as he carried out this function, he was

18 supposed to coordinate this together with the minister of the MUP, with

19 the commander of the Territorial Defence, the minister of national

20 defence, probably, but he was in charge of coordinating command, those two

21 components, and they took the weapons. I mean, it wasn't somebody else

22 that took the weapons.

23 You can see that that was one of the decisions of the last

24 meeting. The last meeting or the one but last.

25 Q. And then the next item was that "a decision was passed stating

Page 24029

1 that the exchange of prisoners be handled by the Ministry of Justice after

2 the internal affairs organs finish their work." Were you involved in that

3 issue, Mr. Krajisnik?

4 A. I was not involved. But, as I already mentioned at the beginning

5 of this session, this was the first time that prisoners were being

6 discussed, that prisons are being discussed. It was the first time that

7 this problem was dealt with in minutes and records. And later, on several

8 occasions, that was an item on the agenda. As far as I could tell, on the

9 basis of these records. And I know -- well, there are prisoners on our

10 side and prisoners on their side, and all would be exchanged for all.

11 I would like to remind the Trial Chamber of an agreement that was

12 here when Mr. Mandic testified that was signed between Mr. Karadzic and --

13 no. Well, the Serb side and through the mediation of the UN that all

14 prisoners at that point in time should be exchanged, all for all. Muslims

15 signed this at a lower level. Later on this was not signed. This was not

16 realised. I don't know why. This was simply a big mistake and many

17 remained in prison, and then they were easy prey for many irresponsible

18 people in terms of abuse and - how should I put this? - grave

19 consequences.

20 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, we then come to heeding which says "Rulings." Do

21 you see that? It's a larger heading. And then underneath one issue a

22 ruling stating that Ministry of Finance is temporarily moved. Do you see

23 that?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, this refers to number of organs or offices

Page 24030

1 moving to various places, and at this point I'm going to ask you to look

2 at a map of Pale and give the Trial Chamber some information and

3 identification of what was where and who was there and so on.

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, this is a new map. Your Honour,

5 there's a coloured version of the map. It's a -- it's a map prepared in

6 the United States. It's a United States government map 1995, so it's

7 after this period, but -- but what we need is a good clear map,

8 Your Honour, for these purposes as a starting point. There's a -- it's in

9 colour. There's an enlarged black and white version of it which may

10 assist Mr. Krajisnik in identifying locations.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would be better.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, do you intend to have any marking done

13 on the map?

14 MR. STEWART: I was going to invite Mr. Krajisnik to -- freely to

15 mark, Your Honour, yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'd rather do that on the coloured one

17 because that gives more even -- if marking could be done on the ELMO, that

18 assists us in following what actually happens.

19 MR. STEWART: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And it is also better for the record. Marking to be

21 done in black, Defence markings.

22 Mr. Registrar, a number for this.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D191, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


Page 24031

1 Q. I suppose I ought to ask you first of all, Mr. Krajisnik, to

2 confirm that you are happy with this map as sufficiently accurate for our

3 practical purposes representing the layout and buildings in Pale in 1992,

4 given that this map is actually a 1995 map.

5 A. I would like to ask kindly for the OTP map. It's much better.

6 And I mean, I really cannot find my way here. Look at this map. It's

7 easier for me to find my way on this map. So can I put this one here?

8 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm --

9 JUDGE ORIE: If -- yes. First of all, of course, Mr. Stewart, I

10 leave it up to you how to deal with this. I'll expect a compliment to the

11 OTP by Mr. Krajisnik.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, could this map be placed

13 on --

14 MR. STEWART: Just either -- just not -- sorry, I'm simply not

15 clear myself which map it is, so since it's an OTP map no doubt they can

16 tell me.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Is it a map that has been admitted into evidence?

18 Then we should invite the registrar to find the original one.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Mr. Lakic testified, that's

20 when this map was brought in.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, are you in a position to -- oh, yes.

22 I remember the -- oh, that's the distances map. Yes, yes.

23 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I've come to the lectern for this

24 reasonable. I thought that this was the map that Mr. Krajisnik had said

25 during the course of Mr. Lakic's evidence, he didn't accept.

Page 24032

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least the Chamber has some problem with

2 accepting it, because I remember that on this map 2 times 0.6 kilometres

3 amounts to one and a half kilometres. So there are certainly some -- some

4 problems with this map.

5 MR. JOSSE: I checked last week, and I didn't think that that map

6 had in fact been admitted into evidence. I discussed it with both my

7 learned friends. I see Mr. Tieger's on his feet. Perhaps Your Honour

8 could ask Mr. Krajisnik whether the map that he just produced and is now

9 in Your Honour's hands is one that he accepts the accuracy of.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, with this map we earlier had

11 problems as far as distances are concerned. At least that's what the

12 Chamber had problems with. And I don't know whether it has been admitted

13 into evidence. I don't --

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, it was my understanding that it had not

15 been admitted into evidence. I rose to mention that my recollection is

16 that the issues concerning that map were at least twofold. One, the

17 distances as reflected in the key or the scale; and two, a problem with

18 the placement of at least one of the structures indicated on the map.

19 There may be more.

20 MR. JOSSE: That's my recollection too.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, we have some difficulties in asking

22 you to -- to work with this map which confronts us with several

23 difficulties. Could we -- could you please, nevertheless, try to look at

24 the other map and see the map just given to you by counsel and to see

25 whether, even if it takes a bit more time, whether you could find your way

Page 24033

1 on it.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Will you make it possible for me

3 just to make one comment here so I can help the Office of the Prosecution

4 and the Trial Chamber later?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

6 MR. TIEGER: Before any further comments, Your Honour, perhaps

7 it's useful to note that that map was marked as 11 -- P1119.

8 JUDGE ORIE: P1119.

9 MR. STEWART: It's -- well, Mr. Josse says he won't mind me

10 saying, it's coming back to, Your Honour, that it was a -- he says it was

11 a sort of compromise, that it wasn't exhibited but it was marked for

12 identification. I see Mr. Tieger nodding. It seems we're agreed on what

13 the compromise was.

14 MR. TIEGER: That's my recollection as well.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then, of course, I don't know to what extent

16 the problems we found, Mr. Stewart, would be of influence. Sometimes

17 distances are not the major issue but other matters are, so I leave it up

18 to you whether you insist on using the map you've just produced and then

19 we invite Mr. Krajisnik to use that one or that you'd say that the one

20 that Mr. Krajisnik prefers.

21 MR. STEWART: Well, I don't know whether insistence comes into it,

22 Your Honour. I had thought but life is never that simple, I had thought

23 that I had had a nice, clear map that we could at least start with. But

24 it's never quite like that.

25 But what I -- Your Honour, perhaps the better course might be to

Page 24034

1 use the blown up black and white version of this map.


3 MR. STEWART: It's just easier for Mr. Krajisnik.

4 JUDGE ORIE: If Mr. Krajisnik -- Mr. Krajisnik, would you please

5 have a look at the blown up black and white and see whether you can work

6 from that.

7 MR. STEWART: I had exactly the same inclination as Your Honour

8 about use of the coloured map, but it seems in the light of that exchange

9 that we should adapt.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may quickly correct the record on

11 one matter. It's correct that that -- when the map was originally

12 discussed it received the number 1119 for identification. It was

13 ultimately not exhibited, and that number was reused for another exhibit.

14 So there might otherwise be confusion.


16 MR. STEWART: That's wonderful, Your Honour. That's very helpful

17 information, because that keeps us on our toes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: All right. Let's have a look at this map.

19 Mr. Krajisnik, is this -- can you work on the basis of this map? Apart

20 from that at this moment I think south is to the right instead of nicely

21 to the bottom.

22 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour's absolutely right. This -- the --

23 madam --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please re -- put it on the map

25 in a way which would make south to the bottom even if it's -- and now

Page 24035

1 perhaps move a bit further up.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.


4 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like us to start. You are not only free but

5 actually being encouraged to -- to mark this map, to give a clear

6 indication. Can we start -- the Kikinda building was where these meetings

7 that we are looking at now and have been looking at took place. That's

8 right, isn't it?

9 A. Yes. That's why I wanted to show on that map that the Kikinda

10 building was marked erroneously, and it's very important. The government

11 went from there and that's why I wanted to explain all of that. It just

12 requires a minute.

13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, we can probably sort all this out again. At the

14 moment it's incorrectly marked on a map that's not in At the moment it's

15 incorrectly marked on a map that's not in evidence. So that's not the

16 huge problem immediately. But on the map that we are looking at perhaps

17 you could clearly and conspicuously mark where the Kikinda building is.

18 Perhaps a big letter K would be the best way of doing it.

19 Mr. Harmon seems to agree with that suggestion.

20 A. Kikinda should be here on this road, somewhere around here. There

21 are buildings here. Now, where is this? But it's portrayed quite

22 differently on the other side where the Kikinda building was not, and

23 that's why it said 0600. And over here it's over two kilometres. That's

24 is why in my opinion it is important to clarify that first and foremost.

25 So it's this road leading to Jahorina. That's where the Kikinda building

Page 24036

1 was, somewhere around here.

2 Q. Are you able simply to -- whatever deficiencies in the map,

3 Mr. Krajisnik, are you able to identify the spot where the Kikinda

4 building was and, therefore, mark it?

5 A. Well, I think, and I'm saying this with a reservation, I think it

6 is here.

7 Q. Okay. Put a big letter K against it, Mr. Krajisnik.

8 A. Yes, I will. Yes. That's it.

9 Q. Thank you?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Is there another copy of the large map, because all

11 sight is lost on scale for the Trial Chamber and, of course, it can't be

12 done on the ELMO I'd like to.

13 MR. STEWART: Yes, I appreciate that Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Even if it's not the same size but at least the whole

15 of the map.

16 MR. STEWART: We've got the map, Your Honour. Certainly it's not

17 the same size. It's the coloured version.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, probably that -- when the big one's

20 been marked it would be a good time to get some extra copies of it.

21 Q. And, Mr. Krajisnik, just -- I was just going on while everybody

22 was --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


25 Q. Sorry. Mr. Krajisnik, I was just going on while everybody's

Page 24037

1 absorbing, trying to absorb this map, to invite you to identify the

2 locations of these items referred to in the minute in front of us. It

3 says, "the Ministry of Finance has temporarily moved to the premises of

4 Famos cultural centre in Koran." Where is that?

5 A. I think this is Koran. Let me just a very look. Yes.

6 Q. And Famos cultural --

7 A. Where it says 3. That's the building.

8 Q. That's the Famos -- not sure whether it's Famos or --

9 A. Yes, this is Famos as far as I can tell. Yes, Famos.

10 Q. Perhaps a letter F for Freddy or Famos would be good there?

11 A. F you mean?

12 Q. Yes. F for Famos.

13 A. This is Greek and Serbian F.

14 Q. That's your entitlement, Mr. Krajisnik, I feel sure. Then the

15 Ministry of Defence was to go to the premises of the Municipal Assembly

16 where -- is that --

17 A. Municipal Assembly should be somewhere around here. I beg your

18 pardon. Somewhere around here. I'm sorry. Let me just have a look.

19 Q. Take your time, Mr. Krajisnik, to get it -- to get it absolutely

20 right.

21 A. I am sorry.

22 Q. I understand you're dealing with this map under protest,

23 Mr. Krajisnik, so take your -- take your time.

24 A. Oh, there is a great many things I don't like, but I just have to

25 deal with them. Let me just -- it's close to the football stadium.

Page 24038

1 Sorry. Sorry. I think -- this is the football stadium, as far as I can

2 see. Yes. Yes. So the Municipal Assembly could be this building here.

3 The Municipal Assembly, here near this stadium, although there were two

4 playing fields now.

5 Q. And then the ministry of agriculture, forestry, and water supplies

6 was to go to the premises of the Jahorina forestry company. Where's that

7 on the map?

8 A. Forestry. That should be -- I think it should be in this building

9 here. Here. I really do apologise. I did not live in Pale for a long

10 time. Perhaps I may make an omission too. I think -- well, this is the

11 road, so I think that forestry should be somewhere around here. Now, is

12 it this building or the other building? Are I think it's this building.

13 Yes, yes. This is UNIS, and this would be forestry.

14 Q. And then the Ministry of Justice to the premises of the institute

15 for the examination of formaldehyde. Some might unkindly suggest some

16 people that that was the right place for it. But, Mr. Krajisnik, where is

17 that?

18 A. I don't know. This is the first I hear of it. It can only be at

19 Famos. I don't think -- no. No. It can only be in Famos. But I don't

20 know what that is.

21 Q. And then the Ministry of Health to the Koran hospital. Can you

22 say where that is?

23 A. Well, if you remember, that was a problem, whether it was a prison

24 or a hospital.

25 Q. Well, its location won't be affected by that issue, Mr. Krajisnik,

Page 24039

1 will it?

2 A. It's important for me, because it was stated publicly here and no

3 one denied it. So, please, out of these two buildings I think this could

4 be the Koran hospital, out of these two buildings. Just a moment, please.

5 I beg your pardon.

6 This is Koran, so --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have on the ELMO the portion Mr. Krajisnik

8 is ...

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Out of these two buildings here, one

10 should be the Koran hospital. I think it's this building, the Koran

11 hospital.


13 Q. And the --

14 A. It was a hotel, the Koran Hotel, and then it was turned into a

15 hospital, re-oriented.

16 Q. And then the Ministry of Education -- sorry, Your Honour?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask, the legend of the map says exactly

18 at the spot indicated by Mr. Krajisnik that it was a military hospital.

19 Could we please -- Mr. Krajisnik, if you say it was a hospital, was it a

20 civilian hospital or a military hospital?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Civilian?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Because the map says military.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right. It used to be

Page 24040

1 the Koran Hotel, and during the war it was turned into a hospital,

2 primarily for soldiers. Right. That's it. Civilians received treatment

3 there, too, but most of the hospital population were soldiers.

4 You asked about --


6 Q. Well, I hadn't asked yet but I was about to. Mr. Tieger's got

7 a --

8 MR. TIEGER: Yes, very quickly, a small matter. If Mr. Krajisnik

9 could indicate with a bit more specificity what markings he's placed

10 Operational Group the map so the record will clearly reflect the

11 correspondence between what he says on the record and what appears

12 physically on the map.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a matter of fact, the marking on the

14 Municipal Assembly building is something like a P or a D, but it's not

15 entirely clear to me. Perhaps you could start there.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Cyrillic, SO for Skupstina

17 opstina, municipal assembly, and BK denoting the hospital, Bolnica Koran,

18 meaning hospital Koran. And Kikinda is K. And we had F for Famos.

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we agree a hundred per cent with Mr.

20 Tieger's observation. I had thought that -- that it probably would be a

21 good idea if at the end of today anyway if perhaps Mr. Sladojevic were to

22 have a look at it against the transcript and discuss with somebody on the

23 Prosecution side so we get it all absolutely clear.

24 Your Honour. I'm looking at the clock anyway, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll have a break now until 11.00.

Page 24041

1 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I put one question to the Prosecution first.

4 Is the location of the buildings in any way contested, so where was

5 Kikinda, where is Jahorina? Is that a contested issue?

6 MR. TIEGER: I think it came up as a -- it arose in a context in

7 which it appeared contested in its location on the map and I think that

8 was the subject of some dispute. But as I understand it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: But the substance -- apart from the maps we are using

10 is the substance contested? Is there any dispute between the parties?

11 MR. TIEGER: I don't believe so, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, do you believe it is?

13 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, we believe two things. First of

14 all, it was unlikely there was any significant dispute but secondly that

15 it was nevertheless important for the Trial Chamber to see where these

16 various buildings were.

17 JUDGE ORIE: That's great, and the Chamber wonders, addressing

18 both parties, the Chamber wonders why we are spending hours, I mean this

19 is not the first time we're dealing with it, why not sit together even

20 perhaps not on counsel level and say could we agree on where the buildings

21 are. We produce a map. It'd take us five minutes to say please,

22 Your Honours, that's Kikinda, that's where the Assembly was, that's where

23 Jahorina was, that's where the hospital was. It would have taken us five

24 minutes in court and we would have been aware of it. So the Chamber

25 really asks itself, especially since we are limited in our time why this

Page 24042

1 matter has not been introduced in -- as a matter that could have been

2 agreed upon. I mean, as you prepare for such testimony, looking at the

3 maps, et cetera, instead of spending half an hour or more on it in Court.

4 I would say ten minutes with the other party would have certainly paved

5 the way to a smooth introduction of what the Chamber do agree would like

6 to know what's where. Still there, the importance of it is -- is perhaps

7 not -- it's not the greatest issue at this moment but it could be

8 important. So the Chamber accepts that time is spent on it, but I would

9 have to -- and I'm not going even to take the time, how much time we spend

10 on these maps and what is where, but it certainly has been too much.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I accept the point. The more

13 general point, actually, is the weeks that would have been served if we'd

14 done a similar exercise in relation to loads of other material before the

15 trial even began. But Your Honour, so far as the map is concerned, this

16 is to some extent my fault because I had not appreciated that we had so

17 many different locations, and I then had to deal with the time when

18 Mr. Krajisnik is not available to me. So I certainly accept the

19 responsibility for that.

20 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, looking back at the -- Mr. Krajisnik, I -- there

21 was clearly some dissatisfaction on your part immediately before the break

22 in relation to where we were on maps. I might ask whether you are content

23 with the position as we now have it or whether there is some further

24 comment that you wish to make about maps at this point.

25 A. If you could just give me a minute to take that map that was

Page 24043

1 disputed concerning locations, because the location where we were and

2 where we stayed is important. Also in light of the witnesses we heard.

3 Just a minute. It would be of help to the Trial Chamber and to everybody,

4 because a lot of confusion has been created.

5 MR. TIEGER: I actually don't understand that suggestion, why we

6 would take a document that's no longer exhibited, declare -- now we'll be

7 reintroducing what appears to be the source of some confusion and then

8 trying to clarify it when we can obviate that by simply leaving it where

9 it stands, which is not evidence, I think.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

11 MR. STEWART: To a degree I accept what Mr. Tieger says. On the

12 other hand, Your Honour, I'm very anxious that my client does not proceed

13 at this point in his evidence feeling unhappy that he's got insufficient

14 opportunity to explain the position.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, which location would you like to

16 further clarify? Is it Kikinda? Is it -- what position you'd like to

17 further elaborate on, because some of the matters, I think on the basis of

18 this map, we know. Where Kikinda is, is clear, where the Koran hospital

19 or hotel is, is clear. What would you further like to deal with, which

20 building?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, Mr. President, precisely with

22 regard to Kikinda this is important, because you asked a question, namely

23 were we able to see people coming from Bratunac, were we able to see

24 refugees. It will take just a minute and it's a completely different

25 location.

Page 24044

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, it's clear the location where you put

2 Kikinda is more than one kilometre from what is the centre of town, more

3 or less. That's a distance and we see also elevation lines, and unless

4 someone comes up with clear photographs telling us that you could see it

5 from Kikinda, I think the Chamber will not at this moment assume that

6 there is any direct line of sight between Kikinda and the centre of the

7 city apart from -- even on this map we see the Vuc [phoen] et cetera. So

8 therefore don't be concerned about that. So if that's your issue, then

9 there's no need to go to it any further.

10 If there's anything else you'd like to point at, then please tell

11 us what building is this about.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, since obviously we don't need

13 to put back on the previous map, I travelled towards the little hall,

14 towards Panorama, in the evening at 9.00 p.m., and Mr. Karadzic went the

15 same way. He had some sort of weekend cottage there. We were not going

16 to Pale. Whereas Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic went on to Mount Jahorina

17 where they stayed the night. Only Mr. Djeric stayed here.

18 One could create an atomic -- I mean, anything could have been

19 happening here at Pale without us knowing what was going on. It was

20 completely out of the way. It's different with this location where

21 Kikinda is as shown before.

22 I wanted to explain that this location that had been explained

23 previously as Kikinda, nowadays it's the security service centre of

24 Sarajevo. It's written there. And in 1995, the government was located

25 there in prefab buildings. But in 1992 there was nothing. That's it.

Page 24045

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, we know where the Panorama is. It's

2 not marked on this map again, but on -- both Panorama and Kikinda are well

3 out of town and your evidence now is that you didn't pass through the town

4 when you went home. Yes.

5 MR. TIEGER: As it happens, Panorama is marked on the map itself.

6 Not by Mr. Krajisnik but it appears there.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We then immediately clarify that. On this map, could

8 you please look at where you think Panorama is. It says, "most likely,"

9 and I'm going to lead you on that, "there is a number 13" --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this is Panorama, this here.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please take --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We took this road. The other people

13 went up there, and nobody went to town. That's all I wanted to say.

14 JUDGE ORIE: If I would have to go from Kikinda to Panorama, I

15 would not cross town itself from --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Panorama has been marked now with a Cyrillic P, and

18 that coincides with number 13 on the map, which reads "Bosnian Serb

19 government administrative headquarters."

20 Judge Hanoteau would like to know if you go from Kikinda to the

21 road in a southerly direction where that would lead you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here. I'm showing it now. This is

23 the road --

24 JUDGE ORIE: But if you go that same road in southerly direction.

25 Do you end up in Jahorina? From Kikinda south --

Page 24046

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mount Jahorina is up there. So

2 Mr. Koljevic and Mrs. Plavsic went there, where as we were here, and it

3 was night. That's all I wanted to explain. And the people from Bratunac

4 were detained here. And that's where Kikinda is shown, 600 metres away.

5 It was just an error that I wanted cleared up. I don't think

6 anyone did it deliberately.

7 JUDGE ORIE: It's perfectly clear now. Please proceed.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. I just

9 couldn't find my peace until I've explained this.


11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, then in the minutes that we were looking at there's

12 a heading "Conclusions." Do you see that?

13 A. "A conclusion was adopted on finding adequate ways for

14 mobilisation in Sarajevo." You see that?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Were you involved in that exercise?

17 A. I probably have been there, but I don't remember this. It was

18 probably a problem that not many people were engaged and probably it was

19 debated that we needed to mobilise people, but I don't remember.

20 Q. And then "A conclusion was adopted on organising a meeting with

21 General Kukanjac." Are you able to add anything about meetings with

22 General Kukanjac from what you've already told the Chamber about that?

23 A. I don't know whether this was the purpose of the meeting with

24 Mr. Kukanjac or maybe the matter that I explained before when I said I

25 attended a meeting where various unrealistic proposals were made.

Page 24047

1 As for the meeting with Mr. Kukanjac, the point is that the

2 Yugoslav People's Army was supposed to be an armed force that would be a

3 mediator in defusing armed conflict in getting them to observe cease-fire

4 so that we could see what their plans were because we wanted to fit in to

5 their plans, because it was in our interest to defend the Serb people.

6 Mr. Kukanjac was from a different institution, and we wanted to talk to

7 him.

8 I am aware of this idea that we were supposed to get in touch with

9 him, but apart from this one meeting, I don't remember any more meetings

10 with him.

11 Q. Then continuing through these conclusions, I'm not going to ask

12 you anything about the next two. And then there's "A conclusion was

13 adopted on the urgent compilation of lists of police units and TO members

14 at the front line and on positions in the function of the Serb republic."

15 Do you see that?

16 A. Yes, I see that.

17 Q. Was there -- was there a single front line at that time,

18 Mr. Krajisnik?

19 A. Yes. Serb forces were on one side, Muslims forces were on another

20 side, and Croats were on a third side depending on the boundaries between

21 the parties. The army was neutral to a maximum at this time, and Mr.

22 Kukanjac was trying to mediate in this conflict. I'm not saying that some

23 people didn't get involved, I'm just saying what he personally advocated.

24 Q. Where was the front line?

25 A. The map was shown here yesterday depicting a front line as it was

Page 24048

1 established around Sarajevo on the 4th or the 5th of April, and apart from

2 shifts near Grbavica and Zabrdje, I think it remained in that place all

3 the time, because they took Pofalici, Zuc, and part of Smiljevici. That's

4 the map shown yesterday around Sarajevo. We had no other information at

5 that time. I mean, we had no information as to where the front line lay

6 in other areas.

7 Q. Then the next item, "A conclusion was adopted granting an official

8 trip for Mr. Pejic to Belgrade ..."

9 What was that for, Mr. Krajisnik?

10 A. I mentioned it yesterday. Mr. Pejic was the Minister of Finance

11 on the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and as far as I know, he was

12 deputy prime minister for finance on the government of the Serb Republic

13 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And he had good connections with the National

14 Bank in Yugoslavia. And since we shared the payment transaction system

15 and we shared the same currency, the dinar, he was entrusted to going to

16 Belgrade for two reasons, in order to see with the National Bank whether

17 we could still use the same possibilities as before the war for getting

18 certain funds from the primary issue. And the second point of his trip

19 was to try to settle the issue of premises in Belgrade where the bureau of

20 the Serb republic would be housed. And also, to settle the issue of the

21 so-called Vila Bosanka, which was a villa at the disposal of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina before the war, and indeed we did get the right to use that

23 building during the war. I think that was his mission.

24 Q. And Zukovic, Milojevic and Markovic going to Banja Luka. What

25 was that for?

Page 24049

1 A. I don't know how they were able to go Banja Luka, by helicopter or

2 something, because there was no ground communication, surface to surface I

3 mean, but obviously the purpose was to get information as to what was

4 happening in the western part of Republika Srpska that was cut off. It

5 was cut off from Pale, from the Presidency, the location where I

6 was too.

7 Q. And the next conclusion was, following the instructions for the

8 establishment of state authority, Simovic and Stanicic should travel to

9 the Bosnian Krajina, Dukic, and Djeric to Birac and Semberija, and Mandic

10 to Herzegovina.

11 Mr. Krajisnik, are you able to say what was the purpose or what

12 was were the circumstances which gave rise to those planned visits?

13 A. I see only now -- in fact, I'm sure now it was only a meeting of

14 the government. I don't even think that Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Koljevic and

15 I were present, because from the way they took decisions, we see that they

16 allocated tasks to members of the government who were potential members or

17 current members, and they were supposed to spread across regions, Birac,

18 Vlasenica, Bratunac, and so on. Semberija is Bijeljina, and Herzegovina

19 is Trebinje and Mostar, whereas Bosanska Krajina is Banja

20 Luka and that area. They were supposed to tour their regions to gather

21 information on the ground as to what was going on. Whether they indeed

22 went out into the field I don't know. I'm almost sure they didn't,

23 because the government session in Banja Luka followed soon thereafter.

24 Q. And then "a conclusion was adopted for a group of lawyers led by

25 Dr. Simovic to go to the School of Internal Affairs in Vrace and prepare:

Page 24050

1 An operative government plan, basic laws for establishing the legal

2 system," and so on. Was there some special issue or difficulty which

3 arose in Vrace.

4 A. I have to correct myself now. Now I remember that I attended that

5 meeting where it was discussed, because there is mention here of

6 Mr. Simovic. Excuse me.

7 Mr. Simovic was the chairman of the Ministerial Council, and he

8 was later replaced. He was deputy prime minister of the government of

9 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and he came to Pale for just one day. And at that

10 meeting of consultative nature, various people were given tasks, and he

11 was given a task concerning Vrace and the School of Internal Affairs.

12 They were supposed to decide how the Serb state would function. This

13 meeting did not take place because Mr. Simovic returned to Sarajevo and

14 became deputy prime minister in the government of Mr. Izetbegovic.

15 I remember we met then. We received our various tasks, after

16 which we went to Sarajevo, and nothing came out of this meeting as far as

17 I remember.

18 As to your question, there was no problem in Vrace. There was

19 just a police school, the school for internal affairs, a school where

20 special police was trained. It was a building owned by the government of

21 the Serbian Republic, and it was easier for them to work there. Mr.

22 Djokanovic, if you remember, was there with them on the same premises.

23 Q. I want to put those minutes on one side, then, Mr. Krajisnik, and

24 turn to the session of the National Security Council and government held

25 on the 27th of April.

Page 24051

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, this is found in P64A, binder 25, tab

2 697, and the ERN is 01245305.

3 Q. Now, these -- it's what's called a record -- in the English a

4 record of the National Security Council and the government, 27 April,

5 1992.

6 We see at the end, Mr. Krajisnik, it says it's signed by

7 Dr. Karadzic. Can you say whether Dr. Karadzic was at this meeting on the

8 27th of April, 1992?

9 A. I believe he was there, because the last day in April for us was

10 the 27th of April, because after that Mr. Karadzic, the late Mr. Koljevic,

11 and I travelled to Brussels to attend the conference on

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we were there until the 7th or 8th of May. No,

13 the 7th of May.

14 On the 8th, we returned to Pale, and that's when the meeting in

15 Graz was held, I think between the 5th and the 7th, with the Croatian

16 side. So I think that Mr. Karadzic was there. As far as I can remember,

17 this is the last one April. That is to say, the kind of meeting that we

18 could have attended.

19 Q. So at -- at around that time both you and Dr. Karadzic went off to

20 meet the -- Mr. Cutileiro, did you?

21 A. Yes. Yes, yes. We went to Belgrade. I think by helicopter. I

22 can't remember now. It doesn't matter. And then from there we went by

23 plane to Brussels or Lisbon or wherever. At any rate, we went to this

24 conference. I can check exactly in which city this conference was held.

25 I think it was Brussels.

Page 24052

1 Q. Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, that may or may not -- that may or may not be

2 corrects. You've invited checking. But you were -- as you said you were

3 away from Pale for a period of about 10 days. That's right, isn't it?

4 A. Well, I don't know. I know that after that we went to Brussels

5 and then to Graz, and then returned, and I know on the 8th of April we

6 went to Herzegovina, and I know that on the 7th there was this telephone

7 conversation that was recorded here from Vrace with me, because I said we

8 were travelling the following day someplace in Herzegovina. So that was

9 after the meeting in Graz. So after all, we were travelling all that

10 time.

11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, can we just try to get it straight then? You

12 were -- as you say, you were certainly away for more than just two or

13 three days, do you?

14 A. Yes. Yes. By all means. Even more than that. Perhaps five or

15 six days.

16 Q. And were you and Dr. Karadzic both away on that same trip for the

17 whole period?

18 A. Yes. The three of us were together all the time.

19 Q. With Dr. Koljevic as well?

20 A. Yes, the late Dr. Koljevic. Yes. I don't know whether there was

21 anyone else there, too, but the three of us were there for sure.

22 Q. To what degree, if any, Mr. Krajisnik, did you, and I'm talking

23 about you individually, keep in touch with Pale while you were away on

24 that trip?

25 A. Well, if I was there, I could be in touch with my family, but I

Page 24053

1 don't think I really talked to anyone. It was so dynamic. I did not

2 usually call anyone except for my family to see how my wife was and how my

3 children were. I had no reason to contact anyone else. So my answer is

4 that I am confident that I did not talk to anyone except privately.

5 Q. Did -- did Dr. Karadzic receive any reports or briefings from

6 Bosnia while you were away so far as you know?

7 A. Well, we got some information from the people who were present at

8 that conference. I think that Mr. Karadzic did not receive any

9 information either. Well, if he talked to someone, either he or

10 Mr. Koljevic, the late Mr. Koljevic, then usually it would be the

11 interlocutors who were asking about what was going on at the conference

12 rather than the other way round.

13 Q. Now, you met Mr. Cutileiro personally on that trip, didn't you?

14 A. Yes, by all means.

15 Q. Was Mr. Izetbegovic there?

16 A. As far as I can remember, he had promised -- the late Izetbegovic

17 promised he would come to the conference, but somebody else came, if my

18 memory serves me well, and we actually protested why he did not come to

19 the conference. Or maybe he was at the conference. I really cannot

20 remember.

21 Q. Was any sort of progress apparently made at that conference

22 towards resolving the crisis and the conflict?

23 A. Not significantly. Only small steps were made, and the conference

24 did not have any major success.

25 Q. And then at some point towards the end of April you were in Graz

Page 24054

1 in Austria; correct?

2 A. Yes. It could have been between the 5th and the 7th or, rather,

3 the 4th and the 7th of May. I testified about that here, that we were

4 encouraged to have contacts, bilateral contacts, among the parties, to

5 perhaps resolve Serb-Croat relations or Serb-Muslim relations then.

6 Perhaps that would have been easier. And then through some intermediaries

7 we agreed we would meet in Graz. The representatives of the Croats from

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina were there, and there was someone there, too, and I

9 cannot remember now, who represented Croatia at that meeting but I can't

10 remember who it was actually, I can't remember.

11 Q. Was any progress apparently made in Graz towards resolving the

12 crisis and conflict either as between Serbs and Croats or more widely?

13 A. Great success was achieved in terms of Serb-Croat relations in

14 Graz. We identified points that we had in common undeniably, the two

15 ethnic communities, that is, the Serbs and the Croats, undeniably. And

16 then we identified what was in dispute, and then we put aside that which

17 was in dispute or, rather, we decided not to discuss what was undeniable

18 but only to discuss the matters at that were in dispute. That's where the

19 corridor was discussed and some possible exchanges of territories. Then

20 Mostar was referred to, and the Neretva valley, and so on. We were

21 satisfied.

22 There was this press conference that was held on the 7th of May

23 where Mr. Karadzic and the late Boban made a joint statement in terms of

24 what took place at that meeting. I have that paper. If you're

25 interested, I can show it to you.

Page 24055

1 Q. Well, we'll look into that, Mr. Krajisnik. And you said that you

2 identified points you had in common undeniably. What were the main points

3 that you undeniably had in common between Serbs and Croats?

4 A. Well, there is a natural border between the Croats and Serbs in

5 the area of Livno. That is Western Herzegovina and Krajina. Then there

6 was the lower part of the Neretva River where there was no dispute. Then

7 Posavina was not in dispute either. Then we presented what our interests

8 were, that we have a corridor, and theirs were that they wanted to get

9 some concessions in the area of Kupres. Mr. Karadzic elaborated on that

10 at the next Assembly session on the 12th of May or something similar.

11 Then we established that as far as Mostar was concerned, there was

12 a certain degree of disagreement in terms of what the Croats wanted and

13 what we wanted, and in other areas, too. We brought this down to a

14 minimum of areas that were in dispute I even concluded that maybe own the

15 valley of the area near Mostar was debatable. If I can put it that way.

16 Of course, we were talking about what Serb-Croat relations were. Now the

17 Croats were supposed to talk to the Muslims in terms of where their points

18 in common were, and then the Serbs and the Muslims, and then we would

19 bring down to a minimum the non-controversial issues -- no, sorry, I meant

20 controversial issues. We would bring them down to a minimum and then we'd

21 discuss them only.

22 So this was a very useful meeting with the Croats thanks to

23 good -- the good relations between Mr. Boban and Mr. Karadzic because they

24 knew each other from earlier on, so they were the ones who set the pace.

25 Q. And the corridor that was being discussed, that you mentioned a

Page 24056

1 moment ago, that's the same corridor in Northern Bosnia and Herzegovina

2 which became the subject of strategic objective number 2, is it?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. If you could, then, turn back to that minute of the 27th of April

5 which is what we were looking at a moment ago. We hadn't started on the

6 content, Mr. Krajisnik.

7 Do you see -- it's about three or four items down. "It was

8 decided to conduct full-scale mobilisation ...." Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And in view of this "... every man aged between 33 and 55 strictly

11 forbidden to leave." To leave where, Mr. Krajisnik?

12 A. I'm sorry. Men aged between 33 and 55? You mean leaving

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Republika Srpska? Forbidden to leave?

14 Q. That's what I'm asking you, Mr. Krajisnik.

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Where they were forbidden to leave.

17 A. Yes. Well, they were forbidden to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina, to

18 leave the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. Right. And the next item, "It was decided to secure salaries for

20 members of the Territorial Defence in their," I'm not sure about the next

21 word there, "Enterprises." What's the next word there in Serbian,

22 Mr. Krajisnik, members of the Territorial Defence in their, something with

23 the help of municipal Assemblies?

24 A. Yes, that's what's written in Serbian.

25 Q. Could you read the passage, "The Territorial Defence in their,"

Page 24057

1 and if you could read that bit and then the next six or seven words.

2 A. "In their companies, whereas unemployed and the mobilised in the

3 newly established municipalities (according to the battalion commander's

4 lists) are to be paid by the army or from the budget of the Serbian

5 Republic."

6 Q. And at this point what -- what -- the army -- which army is being

7 referred to?

8 A. The Yugoslav People's Army is being referred to. They were

9 mobilised into the Yugoslav People's Army, that they were mobilised there,

10 and that they should be paid there or from the budget of the Serb

11 republic. I mean, this was added. But who was in the Yugoslav People's

12 Army was supposed to be paid there.

13 Q. And were there any discussions then as to how that -- how the

14 responsibility for such payments would in practice be divided between the

15 army and the budget of the Serbian Republic?

16 A. That is very clear, but I would just like to contribute, perhaps,

17 or, rather, to draw your attention to the following: You can see here

18 that all economic power is in the municipalities. So it says here that

19 the government does not have any resources but that they should pay these

20 armed people who had not been mobilised but are the Territorial Defence,

21 and the army should pay those who had been mobilised. And if something

22 exceptional happens, it was added that it would be the budget of the Serb

23 republic. It would be natural for the entire armed forces to be paid

24 through the ministry of the -- of national defence. However, there was no

25 money then to pay through regular channels, but this was adopted, and

Page 24058

1 that's the way it was done practically throughout the war, because it's

2 the municipalities that had resources whereas the government had - how

3 should I put this? - somewhat smaller possibilities to pay.

4 Q. And then do you see a main number 3, do you see a number 3 a bit

5 further down? "It was decided that the Serbian Republic shall cover the

6 expenses of the burial of four soldiers." That's the reference point.

7 I'm not going to ask about that matter. I just want you to find the

8 place. Do you see the reference to the burial of four soldiers from Novo

9 Sarajevo?

10 A. Yes. Mr. Stewart, it says here "A decision was passed that the

11 Serb republic should cover the expenses of the burial of four soldiers

12 from the municipality of Novo Sarajevo."

13 Q. That's right, Mr. Krajisnik?

14 A. I mean, I don't know.

15 Q. I'm not asking you about that, Mr. Krajisnik. If you go then

16 three items down the within I do want to ask you about says: "It was

17 decided to create commodity reserves."

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. "It was decided to create commodity reserves --"

20 A. Yes, yes, yes.

21 Q. Had anything done before this time that you were aware of to

22 create commodity reserves of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

23 A. I do not remember this part either, but I know that many later the

24 commodity reserves were established and the chamber of commerce, and that

25 they were not established before this time. I'm sure of that.

Page 24059

1 Q. Were they central commodity reserves or were those reserves in

2 different municipalities?

3 A. There were the republican reserves of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

4 there were the Yugoslav commodity reserves before the outbreak of the

5 armed conflict. And all of that remained in some municipality.

6 Now, what is being attempted here is to place this under the

7 authority of the government so that the municipalities do not this.

8 There can be this enormous warehouse on the territory of one municipality,

9 whereas another municipality would have nothing. And it's not municipal,

10 it's republican or Yugoslav. That is why this was an attempt to establish

11 a body which would work on the collection of these reserves or, rather, on

12 collecting data and placing them under one administration.

13 Q. And then if you go on a couple of items --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could I go back to the previous answer, Mr. Stewart.

15 Mr. Krajisnik, about payment of TO members, two short questions.

16 First, you said it was logical that most who were mobilised would be paid

17 by the JNA. Why was any government decision needed in that respect?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that's when the armed

19 conflict broke out. In order to distinguish in terms of who would be paid

20 where, a man who was in the Yugoslav People's Army would be 100 or 200

21 metres away from his house, and that's where he belonged. And he can come

22 in as a member, like the members of the territorial units did and say that

23 they wanted to receive payment. And then he can be told, You are the JNA,

24 you were mobilised, you should be paid there, whereas these armed people

25 did not belong anywhere, and then it says it is the municipality where

Page 24060

1 this was being done. In order to distinguish between the two so there is

2 no duplication because somebody is simply going to say, I'm not aware of

3 this distinction so pay me the same way.

4 There were persons who were under the control of the JNA and are

5 from that area. Perhaps its next door neighbours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you aware of any similar arrangements on

7 the other side of the conflict? So any agreement or any decision on who

8 should be paid on the Muslim side by the JNA?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. Mr. President, I mean it

10 is a fact that before the armed conflict all Muslims left the Yugoslav

11 People's Army, both Muslims and Croats. And they clashed, the Muslim and

12 the Croat ethnic communities, with the Yugoslav People's Army. That is to

13 say that they became enemies. I don't know what they did. I know they

14 established a Territorial Defence immediately in the beginning of April,

15 and later on they turned it into the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They had

16 nothing in common with the Yugoslav People's Army. They were only

17 enemies. This is already the war, the war conflict. Later on, columns

18 would be attacked, barracks would be sealed off, and so on.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.


21 Q. Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps we can go to an aspect of that. If

22 you go back in these minutes to the paragraph that I asked you about,

23 about the men aged between 33 and 55. You see that as a reference point.

24 And then the next point after that says "It was decided to secure

25 salaries --" I'm sorry. It's the point we looked at about the

Page 24061

1 enterprises. "It was decided to secure salaries for the members of the

2 Territorial Defence in their enterprises," and so on.

3 Then the next one we didn't look at specifically. "Salaries of

4 the reserve police should be equivalent ..." Do you see that paragraph?

5 A. Yes, yes, I see that.

6 Q. "Salaries of the reserve police should be equivalent to those of

7 the regular police, and those of the Territorial Defence in the newly

8 established municipalities with those of Territorial Defence members under

9 the command of the JNA."

10 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, so far as we're talking about the Territorial

11 Defence members under the command of the JNA, it's already clear from your

12 answers who you say -- how you say they were to be paid. So far as the

13 Territorial Defence in the newly established municipalities were

14 concerned, what was to be the source of their pay?

15 A. Let me just explain this a bit. In the municipalities that

16 existed until then in Bosnia-Herzegovina, there was the Ministry of

17 National Defence, which mobilised the Territorial Defence and placed them

18 under the JNA. The newly established municipalities did not have such

19 organs and did not mobilise the Territorial Defence and then place them

20 under the JNA, but there was a Territorial Defence.

21 Now, there has to be a distinction between the two. There weren't

22 any files in these municipalities. They were probably in some parts that

23 were not divided like Novi Grad and Rajlovac. Novi Grad was a

24 municipality or, rather, Rajlovac was new and there were no files because

25 they remained in Novi Grad.

Page 24062

1 The Territorial Defence from before the war that had been

2 mobilised before the war and placed under the control of the JNA, that was

3 one thing, and then the Territorial Defence that was the armed people

4 during the course of the war in the newly established municipalities where

5 there were no files. There was no command.

6 Now, that's the distinction, and that is why they are equating

7 this specificity with what had been legal and regular before that.

8 Q. But just to be absolutely clear then, Mr. Krajisnik, the

9 Territorial Defence that was the armed people during the course of the war

10 in the newly established municipalities where there were no files and no

11 command, at this point who was responsible for paying them?

12 A. I'm going to read this sentence and explain it. "The reserve --

13 the salaries of the reserve police should be equivalent to those of the

14 regular police." So that's quite clear. The reserve police and the

15 regular police. "The Territorial Defence in the newly established

16 municipalities." That's the armed people in the newly established

17 municipalities that were not mobilised by the Yugoslav People's Army. At

18 that moment, under instructions from the Presidency - how should I put

19 this? - under their own initiative -- well, not their own initiative but

20 they were established.

21 So this new Territorial Defence in the new municipalities under

22 the command of the JNA, and we saw that the territorials were supposed to

23 be paid by municipalities. We saw that earlier on. You see?

24 Municipalities. And then as far as I know also in enterprises and some

25 companies, well, in enterprises where they are employed. You can see it

Page 24063

1 here, a decision was passed with -- to provide salaries to the

2 territorials in their enterprises.

3 So in the newly established municipalities, they should also

4 receive it from the enterprises. They are simply being put in an equal

5 position.

6 Q. And if we go on to -- past where we looked before at the question

7 of commodity reserves, then about three or four paragraphs or points from

8 the end of this minute do you see, "It was concluded that comprehensive

9 instructions for Crisis Staffs should be drafted in which the manner of

10 political work on the ground and organisation of the functioning of the

11 authorities will be presented"?

12 A. Yes, I see it.

13 Q. And who was to take responsibility for drafting those

14 instructions?

15 A. All these are tasks put before the government. You remember one

16 set of instructions that was drafted and then withdrawn, and now a new

17 more detailed set of instructions was supposed to be drafted. However,

18 that didn't happen because Crisis Staffs were introduced and the

19 Presidency took over. All of this was the jurisdiction of the government.

20 Q. And then the last point in this minute says, "Minister Velibor

21 Ostojic is appointed a government commissioner for the organisation and

22 establishment of government in Sarajevo. The commissioner has to examine

23 the situation, make an assessment, and propose appropriate measures."

24 So is this right, Mr. Krajisnik, what was contemplated was some

25 sort of government office or headquarters of the Serb Republic of Bosnia

Page 24064

1 and Herzegovina in Sarajevo? Was it?

2 A. Well, I could almost say yes to that but not quite. That's not

3 how it was supposed to be. The government tried to introduce the

4 institution of commissioners who would be in charge of a number of

5 municipalities. However, on the 10th of June, it was settled when the

6 decision on commissioners was adopted.

7 You remember Jovo Miskin. In this case it's Mr. Ostojic who was

8 in charge of municipalities, of coordinating their work, of dealing with

9 their problems, receiving citizens. He was supposed to be an outpost of

10 the government and to report back to the government about his progress.

11 There is one conclusion in these documents where Mr. Ostojic and

12 Mr. Subotic were given the task to tour Sarajevo municipalities, which

13 means the government entrusted them with doing that.

14 Q. So can we put that document to one side, Mr. Krajisnik, and turn

15 to a meeting held on the 28th of April.

16 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, this is found at P64A, binder 25, tab

17 698. And the ERN is 01245307.

18 Q. Now, this -- this was on the 28th of April. Do you -- do you

19 think that you and Dr. Karadzic and Professor Koljevic were still in Pale

20 at that date?

21 A. Well, if I remember correctly, I said our last day was the 27th,

22 but if you give me a minute to look through these minutes, I will be able

23 to tell you whether I maybe attended on the 28th after all.

24 Q. Yes, please do so, Mr. Krajisnik.

25 A. No. Obviously I did not attend this meeting. One of the

Page 24065

1 indicators that this was later signed by Mr. Karadzic is this: It seems

2 to me that Karadzic and Djeric did not sign together. Karadzic signed

3 alone. And here we see that both Karadzic and Djeric are indicated at the

4 bottom. However, only Karadzic signed, which means he signed it

5 subsequently, after the fact, and I don't know exactly when.

6 I learned about most of these things later. All of this falls

7 within the jurisdiction of the government, and it could be in fact called

8 the government session.

9 Q. Then if you'd look at point number 9 in this minute, it says,"The

10 reports on the work of Crisis Staffs and municipal organs of government

11 were adopted. The reports by Ostojic and Subotic (particularly on the

12 state of government and security in Serbian Sarajevo)."

13 Do you know who -- who was -- it's not clear from this. Who was

14 reporting on the work of Crisis Staffs and municipal organs of government

15 at this point?

16 A. We see here that Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Subotic did tour Sarajevo,

17 and now they are reporting on how Crisis Staffs are functioning on the

18 ground, and they are reporting to the government. Therefore, it's not the

19 Crisis Staffs reporting to the government, it's Mr. Ostojic and Subotic

20 reporting about the work of Crisis Staffs from Sarajevo. This confirms

21 that Mr. Ostojic was in charge of Sarajevo, and he toured the city

22 together with Mr. Subotic, reporting back to the government later.

23 Q. So Ostojic, he was not engaged -- or, well, was he? Was Mr.

24 Ostojic engaged in this because he was Minister of Information or just

25 because he had been given responsibility for Sarajevo?

Page 24066

1 A. I am not the right person to speak about this, but from what I

2 remember, it's not that Mr. Ostojic was later in charge of Sarajevo.

3 However, he did live at Ilidza, and as a local person he toured the area.

4 He was not really a standing representative, although he had been

5 appointed. He simply reported to the government -- he was in charge of it

6 on paper, but I don't remember that he really took care of municipalities

7 around Sarajevo. He got that one mission. He completed it and reported

8 back to the government.

9 Q. At the end of April, at the time of this meeting as opposed to

10 necessarily specifically at this meeting, how much information were you

11 receiving from municipalities outside the Sarajevo area?

12 A. I don't remember anything at all, any reports from outside

13 Sarajevo. Maybe, as I mentioned, there were verbal reports, hearsay, but

14 I don't remember any official information that I received about any

15 municipalities outside of Sarajevo, and Pale of course. I didn't even

16 know that much about the area around Sarajevo.

17 Q. Point 16 of this particular minute, it says that, "A conclusion

18 was adopted on the work of the Foca Municipal Assembly president, Josif

19 Milicic and the need to replace him." Was there some specific problem

20 that had arisen in Foca?

21 A. This point tells me that I did not attend, because I know why this

22 man was replaced, and I know that I was not around at the time because I

23 wouldn't have agreed to this proposal.

24 The proposal came from this president of a municipality, who was

25 a Montenegrin, not a Serb. It all started with a difference of opinions,

Page 24067

1 some sort of antipathy towards some circles in Montenegro, and it all came

2 down on him like an avalanche, accusations that he had been in touch

3 directly with Belgrade or the General Staff or whatever, and then the

4 government decided to replace him. But I found about it only after it was

5 all over, when he was already replaced. There was nothing else to it.

6 Q. We can put that on one side, then, that document that

7 Mr. Krajisnik --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Stewart.

9 Mr. Krajisnik, could you perhaps please slowly read item 10, just

10 in order to see whether the original is --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not really a good copy. I'll

12 try to read it, however. "The suggestion about the need to better --

13 about the need for better reporting of Crisis Staffs concerning opinions,

14 proposals and reports available to the citizenry and reporting by Crisis

15 Staffs to the government has been adopted."

16 I think I've managed to read it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd very much like the parties to get together

18 and see whether in line 10 where it says in the provisional translation,

19 the reports on the work of -- no, "Suggestions on the use of the --" and

20 now it says previous reports. And I do understand from Mr. Krajisnik

21 reads the language as "better reporting, better reports," and that of

22 course is --

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. There is a better

24 way to translate it.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can correct myself. This can be

Page 24068

1 either "better" or "fuller" information.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but in both cases not "previous." Of

3 course, "previous" suggests that reports were sent in and that the

4 decision was about how to use these reports, whereas it seems that when --

5 in the way read by Mr. Krajisnik, it gets a different meaning.

6 The parties are asked to come together to see if they can agree on

7 how it should be read, what the words are, and if they do not agree then

8 they should report to the Chamber.

9 MR. STEWART: Good idea, with respect, Your Honour. Your Honour,

10 because it would only take a very short time, I wonder if we could -- in

11 light of the interpreter's comment just have one more read through by

12 Mr. Krajisnik now with Mr. Sladojevic being able to follow it as well. It

13 might speed up that exercise and enable --

14 JUDGE ORIE: At least then we could. The problem is that

15 Mr. Sladojevic can understand what Mr. Krajisnik says in B/C/S, and the

16 Prosecution might not be able to follow it, and that seems to be the

17 issue.

18 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, no, it wasn't -- it wasn't to put

19 the Prosecution at some immediate disadvantage or any disadvantage,

20 Your Honour. It was to try to help the process along. We -- we --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- Mr. Krajisnik, could you please again

22 without any further comment just slowly read mainly in order to establish

23 on how you decipher the words in B/C/S. Could you please slowly read it

24 again.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Adopted suggestion about the need,"

Page 24069

1 now comes the disputed word. It can be either "fuller," "earlier," or I

2 don't know what.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I asked you specifically not to

4 comment. Could you please just read number 10, and if there's any word

5 you can't read please tell us, and how it should be translated is a

6 different matter. Yes.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. "Adopted suggestion

8 about the need," comes a word I don't know. "Provide information to

9 Crisis Staffs on opinions, proposals, and reports available to the

10 citizenry and reporting to the government by Crisis Staffs."

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the parties could not agree on the word

12 Mr. Krajisnik just said he couldn't read, the Chamber would like to be

13 informed about what the possibilities are, what the suggestions are, what

14 it could be, so that we can have a look at it ourselves as well. It's

15 just a matter of deciphering letters rather than anything else.

16 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. We'll certainly do that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


19 Q. Yes. I was putting that on -- on -- asking you to put that

20 document on one side and the puzzlement for the moment, Mr. Krajisnik, and

21 we'll move on to the 1st of May meeting of National Security Council and

22 government, and that is found at P64A, binder 25, tab 700. The ERN being

23 01245309.

24 Do you have that, Mr. Krajisnik?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24070

1 Q. The prime minister, whether he's actually chairing, but -- its a

2 he not clear, but after the first three numbered items says: "The prime

3 minister," that was Mr. Djeric, "reported to everyone present about the

4 visit of the Mr. Colm Doyle to the government of the Serb Republic of

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina."

6 Were you one of the people who met Mr. Doyle when he visited?

7 A. No. No, I did not.

8 Q. Mr. Doyle was a representative of the European Community in regard

9 to the negotiations, was he?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And was the reason you didn't meet him because you weren't there

12 when he came to Pale or some other reason?

13 A. From what I remember, I was not at Pale, and I don't remember ever

14 meeting Mr. Doyle.

15 Q. Well, anywhere.

16 A. I can't remember it. I know who the man is, but I don't remember

17 talking to him myself.

18 Q. What was his role or responsibility at the time?

19 A. Mr. Doyle was a representative of the European Community. I

20 remember they were all wearing white suits, and the European Community

21 wanted somehow to have their observers, their monitors, on the ground at

22 the meeting of the representatives of the UNPROFOR. I mean, separately

23 from them. Mr. Doyle played an active part.

24 Q. Were there -- were there any concerns being communicated to you,

25 Mr. Krajisnik, whether directly or through your colleagues, about any

Page 24071

1 question of war crimes?

2 A. Could you be more specific? I don't understand.

3 Q. Perhaps I should be more specific about the time. I'm talking

4 about this time, the end of April, 1992. Had any concerns been

5 communicated to you, Mr. Krajisnik, either directly or through your

6 colleagues, by representatives of any international community or

7 organisations about war crimes?

8 A. I have said this already, but I'll repeat it. What I learned

9 concerned crimes against Serbs, and whatever was available to others

10 concerning reciprocity, namely crimes against others, was immediately

11 again said about another group that said it wasn't true. So at that time,

12 I didn't have any information about war crimes committed by Serbs, nor did

13 any foreigner tell me.

14 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps it's helpful to -- to you, maybe anybody

15 else, if I make it clear that you -- you will hear the same question

16 coming up from time to time, but please have in mind that it will come up

17 in relation to a different point in time. Obviously I'm not going to ask

18 you every day the same question, but I'm likely to ask you the same

19 question with suitable time gaps.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And I had some difficulties at all in understanding

21 your answer, Mr. Krajisnik. Did you say, "Whatever I knew about crimes

22 committed against Serbs would be denied immediately by the other side,"

23 and that's the way it was done the other way as well. So whenever there

24 were any crimes reported of crimes committed against Muslims and Croats

25 that we would deny that as well, because it sounds like that but it's not

Page 24072

1 entirely clear. So could you please clarify that answer.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said at that time I

3 knew only about crimes committed against Serbs. Perhaps if somebody

4 presented some sort of information about crimes committed by our side

5 against Muslims and Croats, I mean a Serb person, somebody would

6 immediately say that it was propaganda, it wasn't true.

7 The bottom line is that I didn't know about any crimes apart those

8 against Serbs. So all I heard about this would have been from foreigners

9 and other Serbs.

10 JUDGE ORIE: But there again, your testimony is, at least how I'd

11 understand, is that if someone would have blamed Serbs for having

12 committed war crimes, that somebody would immediately say that it was

13 propaganda. Have you examples of such a thing to happen?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I've told you about

15 some information that Mrs. Plavsic had about prisons and I don't know

16 what, and she gave an interview. And when she looked for an explanation

17 as to whether we had prisons where people were being abused, I don't know

18 whether she did it at this time or some other time, the reply would come

19 back, "It's not true. It's propaganda."

20 And that's the reply that she would repeat on behalf of the Serb

21 side. So I don't remember any such information. And if there had been

22 such information, immediately the response would come there are no Serb

23 crimes. Serb soldiers don't rape. We don't have any prisons.

24 So if such information had been received, and I don't know if it

25 had been received by the 1st of May, then it would immediately denied by

Page 24073

1 somebody. That's why I'm saying I didn't know anything about any crimes

2 committed by Serbs.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You give this example of Mrs. Plavsic who would say

4 it's all not true. It sounds, but again please correct me if my

5 understanding is wrong, that without paying too much attention to it, it

6 would just be denied or that the response would be this is not true.

7 On the one hand you give an example part of your answer says it's

8 more or less speculating. "I didn't know of any information coming but if

9 it would come then it would be denied immediately," which suggests again a

10 sort of action which was usually taken under those circumstances, or at

11 least you would expect under those circumstances. It's still not entirely

12 clear to me.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, every report, no matter

14 from whom it came, was checked and verified. You can see that.

15 Information would be requested through the Ministry of the Interior to try

16 to verify every report.

17 Mrs. Plavsic first denied everything, and then she said, "I

18 checked this, this, this and this." Concerning prisons, for instance.

19 Every indication, every report that crimes were committed somewhere would

20 give rise to the establishment of a commission or somebody would be

21 entrusted with the task of investigating it, but every time I would get a

22 report from that person saying it was not true. But we never said

23 outright, "This is a lie. We're if the going to deal with it."

24 You can see from any agendas we discussed investigating, inquire

25 into the matter of prisons, camps, prisoners, et cetera. I didn't do the

Page 24074

1 inquiring myself. Somebody else did that. And then whatever I would

2 learn would be along the lines that I have already mentioned.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik, to be clear, I

5 would like to know whether you received reports or indications about war

6 crimes committed by Serbs. Did you receive such information?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not, Your Honour. But please,

8 may I explain? May I give an example?

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So you are telling us that you

10 have never received any report or any indication about war crimes

11 committed by Serbs.

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I with respect invite us all to be

13 clear about the time. I had -- I had intended, I say indicated --

14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Interpretation.

15 MR. STEWART: Thank you for that clarification.

16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] We're talking about the 1st of

17 May and you are telling us that you never received any report. You never

18 received any indication. No one came to tell you anything. No one came

19 to warn you about war crimes committed by Serbs.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've said clearly that I did not

21 receive any information, but I'm asking you kindly to give an example, to

22 be allowed to give an example, by your leave.

23 Mr. Izetbegovic -- are you giving me permission? Mr. Izetbegovic,

24 through the United Nations, or through Mr. Doyle, familiarised our

25 representatives, say it was Mrs. Plavsic or Mr. Koljevic, who were in

Page 24075

1 charge for relations with the UN and the European Community, and that

2 person who received information about the prisons was Mrs. Plavsic. And

3 then she came and she provided information to the effect that there is

4 this information from Mr. Izetbegovic about such-and-such a matter. Now,

5 the comment at this gathering where I learned about this, the comment was,

6 "This was -- this is a lie. This is propaganda." But Mrs. Plavsic and I

7 did not stop at that point. The Minister of Information was entrusted

8 with the task by her, and he was supposed to investigate that, and then

9 after that she says, "This is right. This is not right," and so on and so

10 forth.

11 My knowledge was from the person who was in contact with the other

12 side or the third side or the fourth side. Nobody informed me directly

13 like them. That is the explanation for why I said this. But believe me,

14 even these indications that you referred to were all checked and given to

15 the government to see whether there is anything true in that. That's why

16 I said that I never received this kind of information, and I explained how

17 this went. That can be seen in all the transcripts.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If might be a good time for a break anyhow. We'll

19 have a break of 20 minutes. We resume at five minutes to one.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I just gently inquire if we are

24 going to hear something on that question of the CD?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Most likely tomorrow. We've planned to look at it

Page 24076

1 this afternoon.

2 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.



5 Q. Mr. Krajisnik -- Mr. Krajisnik, looking at these minutes, the --

6 there's an item -- well, in the introduction about the prime minister's

7 report. It talks about the attack on Ilidza on 22nd of April, 1992. Is

8 that the same attack that you were talking about the other day in your

9 evidence?

10 A. Well, there were several attacks, so I don't know whether it's

11 this one. I know that Mrs. Plavsic took part. It's probably this, but I

12 cannot say. Perhaps there was an attack earlier on, too, but there was

13 one on this day.

14 Q. All right. Moving on then, Mr. Krajisnik. Under heading 1, item

15 2, do you see a reference to "The decision on founding penal and

16 correctional organisations in the territory of the SRBH was debated and

17 adopted," do you see that?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. As far as you're able to see, Mr. Krajisnik, is that -- does that

20 relate to what one might call the normal domestic penal and correctional

21 organisations for people within Republika Srpska charged with ordinary

22 crimes as opposed to any form of war crime?

23 A. This is a decision to establish prisons, correctional facilities,

24 regular ones that would be for the civilian population. Let me put it

25 that way. Now, whether somebody else would be detained there, too, I

Page 24077

1 don't know. But the point is it is for the civilian population. That is

2 to say for those who are doing something wrong like in the pre-war times.

3 Q. That's what I was asking, Mr. Krajisnik. The -- and then under

4 the second --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I then please have some clarification, Mr.

6 Stewart.

7 Detention of others, could I say war -- directly war-related

8 detentions, was that -- was there a system already created or was there no

9 need to do it? I mean, you say this decision was about founding penal and

10 correctional organisations in the common sense, normally civilian. Was

11 there any structure already in place for these, I would say, other

12 war-related prisoners?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the way things were

14 according to the law. Prisons were supposed to be established. At that

15 time, there was a Bosnia-Herzegovina and there were prisons. Now, what is

16 said here is, where will prisons be set up?

17 Now, why did I say that there were others too? Why did I say

18 there were others too. How should I put this? There were these legal

19 prisons that could be used for prisoners of war too. This was done in

20 order to avoid the possibility of illegal prisons, those that somebody

21 would establish without resorting to the law.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but -- I now understand you to say these prisons

23 which were established according to legal proceedings or legal procedures,

24 I should say, there could be others there as well, but was there any

25 regulation of prisons or detention facilities which were primarily used

Page 24078

1 for or aimed at receiving prisoners which were directly war related?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know about

3 that because I was not involved in that. But through observation, I saw

4 that the military had their own prisons, but that is not my own testimony.

5 This is what I know from papers. This here are prisons that are

6 established by any state. That is to say regular prisons without military

7 prisons, if I can put it that way.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And where would you expect, I again use the word

9 war-related prisoners, to be detained, in regular prisons or in prisons

10 under the military prisons? Where would you expect them to be detained?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would expect war prisoners to be

12 attached to the military judiciary and military prisons. In practice, it

13 was a different matter.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I specifically used, and you're using perhaps a

15 different language, you said "war prisoners," which I understand to be

16 prisoners of war, and I specifically did not refer to prisoners of war but

17 to war related prisoners. That would include also those who might not

18 have been in the technical meaning of that word, "prisoners of war," but

19 prisoners taken in the course of a war. That could be civilians. That

20 could be -- well, I'm mainly referring to civilians.

21 Would you expect anyone who would not be specifically a prisoner

22 of war to be detained by the military if their arrest was, well, let's

23 say, characterised by or dominated by the war situation?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you, Mr. President, but

25 I cannot give you an answer. This has to do with legal grounds. I as a

Page 24079

1 layperson can say that such persons who are not prisoners of war or,

2 rather, war-related prisoners cannot be in prison. If somebody proclaimed

3 them guilty of something and put them away, well, all of that is

4 unregulated. But I as a person am not professionally competent to explain

5 who could have or should have kept someone somewhere.

6 All of this can be seen from all these papers. For me, women,

7 children, and I don't know who else who was not guilty of anything could

8 not be a prisoner of war or war-related prisoner. If they're not to be

9 claimed for the war, they shouldn't be sent to any prison, if that's an

10 answer.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, to the extent that you say it should not be,

12 whereas if we would believe some of the evidence that was given to us a

13 little bit later, but there were categories of prisoners who would fall

14 likely in the category of which you just said, that they should not be --

15 that they should not be sent to any prison. I mean, we later had the

16 categorisation, three different categories. You certainly remember that

17 evidence at least, I take it. So therefore, you say this should not have

18 happened. Nevertheless, if that evidence would be credible and reliable,

19 then at least, at least suggests that these type of prisoners were there.

20 And if we're talking about the 1st of May, I mean, we're talking about --

21 well, let's say after a few things this happened in Sanski Most. So

22 therefore, apart from what should have been, I'm asking whether any

23 regulation had been made for a category which may have existed, at least

24 on the basis of some of the evidence we received.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know when these regulations

Page 24080

1 were put in place. Mr. Mandic testified about that. But what I know is

2 that the area that you refer to, Sanski Most and the others, was not

3 under -- well, how should I put this? Somebody from the government could

4 not have known what was going on there. If people not guilty of the war

5 on any grounds were detained there, then that is baseless. But if persons

6 who were guilty were detained in an illegal prison which was not based on

7 regulations, again that is irregular too. I mean, it should have been

8 Banja Luka or something, not some improvised facility in Sanski Most. That

9 is why all these improvised, makeshift prisons, when they were learned of

10 were disbanded. And for some no one no how they were established and who

11 established them.

12 I'm telling you all this as a human being. Now, how this was done

13 and to what extent, I can't say. I can believe something to a higher

14 degree, of lesser degree, but anyway I didn't know at the time. So what

15 was attempted then was to set up proper institutions where people could be

16 detained. There cannot be a state without prisons.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


20 Q. Then, Mr. Krajisnik, the heading 2, item 4, do you see "The

21 decision to move the Government of the SRBH to Ilidza or Lukavica, and

22 have the MUP and Ministry of National Defence investigate conditions for

23 housing ..."? Do you see that?

24 A. Yes, I see that.

25 Q. This never happened, did it, Mr. Krajisnik? We know that. Was a

Page 24081

1 great deal of time and resources spent on investigating a possible move to

2 Ilidza and Lukavica?

3 A. Well, a commission had been set up. Mr. Bozidar Antic who

4 appeared here as a witness was on the commission. They were looking into

5 an area where the government could be located, the government from

6 Kikinda. I know that they did not find any proper premises, so

7 afterwards, after May, they moved to Jahorina. The records show when they

8 moved to Jahorina.

9 Q. Then towards the end of this minute under the main heading 3, it

10 says: "It was concluded that contact should be made with the Pale,

11 Sokolac, and Han Pijesak Executive Committees and point out to them to get

12 oil derivative installations working."

13 Mr. Krajisnik, were you aware of there being any Crisis Staffs as

14 opposed to Executive Committees in operation in any of those three

15 locations?

16 A. No, I was not aware of that. I knew that there was some kind of

17 authority, but whether it was a Crisis Staff or whether it was an

18 Executive Committee, I cannot remember and I don't know either. I assume

19 that this is correct, though, what they're saying here, but I don't know.

20 I cannot remember now.

21 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you could put these -- that document on one side,

22 then, and we can look at the meeting that was held, the same bodies,

23 National Security Council and government of Serbian Republic, on the 8th

24 of May.

25 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, this is P64A, binder 25, tab 696, and

Page 24082

1 the ERN is 01245311.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, this was the 8th of May. Were you in Pale --

3 well, we can take -- we can take it, can't we, that all these meetings

4 took place in Pale, didn't they?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you yourself in Pale on the 8th of May, 1992?

7 A. I'm sure I wasn't there because I was elsewhere. I was not in

8 Pale.

9 Q. Where were you?

10 A. I was with Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Koljevic in Nevesinje. We went by

11 helicopter after returning from Graz. I know because of an unfortunate

12 thing that happened there, and that's why I know that I was there on that

13 day.

14 Q. Is the unfortunate thing in any way relevant to this case, or is

15 it just something that enables you to know where you were at that time?

16 A. Well, I don't know if it's relevant. If you're interested, I can

17 tell you about it.

18 Q. Well, put it this way, Mr. Krajisnik, the Trial Chamber are

19 interested if it's relevant. What I mean, if it's -- however good or bad

20 it might be, if it's an individual personal incident, then we needn't

21 pursue it. It's like -- it's in that category, is it, Mr. Krajisnik?

22 A. No, it's not personal. Well, I'll tell you about it. I'll tell

23 you about it briefly.

24 Q. That's probably easier, Mr. Krajisnik, and then we can see.

25 A. On the 7th of May, Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Boban had that conference

Page 24083

1 relating to the Graz meeting. On the 8th of May, we took a helicopter to

2 Herzegovina, and over there, when we arrived in Nevesinje, we saw terrible

3 confusion. Four young men got killed, and all of them were only sons in

4 their families. So the late Mr. Koljevic said, without thinking, that in

5 Graz we agreed that Mostar should belong to the Croat side. And then

6 there was this popular revolt. "Look, our young men are being killed for

7 Mostar and you are betraying Serb interests." So that was most

8 unpleasant, although this statement was made when he was off guard and it

9 was not correct either. So I remember that date very well.

10 This went on for months. Karadzic and Koljevic were accused, and

11 everybody was accused -- well, I wasn't being accused, but that we were

12 betraying Herzegovina.

13 Q. Had anything been agreed with the Croats in Graz about Mostar or

14 Nevesinje?

15 A. I mentioned here that what we mind in dispute was the area of

16 Mostar itself. Below Mostar there was no dispute. I mean, below the town

17 of Mostar as far as Serb-Croat relations are concerned. But as far as

18 Mostar itself is concerned, there were some differences there, so nothing

19 was agreed on. But the late Mr. Koljevic said, caught off guard, "Croats

20 are saying that Banja Luka is Serbian, that Sarajevo is Muslim, and that

21 Mostar is Croatian." And we were talking along those lines.

22 So when people, since they were in pain, heard this, they

23 said, "You've sold Mostar." And there was a significant Serb population

24 there, 22 or 23.000 who had all been expelled from Mostar on account of

25 the war. So people felt that the Serbs had the right to Mostar, too, not

Page 24084

1 only the Croats and the Muslims.

2 Q. Yes. We might note in this context that on the map P211, it may

3 not be necessary to go to it, Your Honour, but on the map P211 the figures

4 given based on the 1991 census there were 35 per cent Muslims, 34 per cent

5 Croats, 19 per cent Serbs, and 12 per cent -- well, it's Yugoslavs is

6 the -- Yugoslavs and others.

7 What -- but going back to your going to Nevesinje, what was the

8 purpose of the three of you going there?

9 A. I know that there were some political differences between some

10 people. There was some sort of autonomous region, and then municipal

11 interests collided, and we thought -- in fact, Mr. Karadzic thought that

12 we should go to Mostar before we hold an Assembly session in order to deal

13 with the rumours that were starting to circulate, to prevent them and

14 refute them.

15 A particular problem were accusations targeting the president of

16 the Assembly, Mr. Branko Simic, a leading personality of the SDS, to the

17 effect that he had betrayed the Neretva valley.

18 So it was a very brief political visit, and if I remember

19 correctly, we went back the same day after a short meeting.

20 Q. Had the three of you, Dr. Karadzic, Professor Koljevic, and

21 yourself, since the war began in -- well, I'll rephrase that.

22 Since you had moved to Pale, had the three of you visited any

23 other municipality together?

24 A. I don't know when the meeting at Sokolac took place, but we were

25 at Sokolac when a delegation from Belgrade arrived. I had said that we

Page 24085

1 were at Ilidza. As for the rest, I don't remember going to any other

2 municipality save for Lukavica maybe, around Sarajevo. I mean, at that I

3 didn't go. And I don't know about them. With a slight margin of error, I

4 would say I didn't go. I'm not quite certain though.

5 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, this -- was this really in Mr. -- Dr. Karadzic's

6 view quite a serious problem down in Nevesinje that justified or required

7 a visit by the three of you?

8 A. I don't think it was such a big problem. It was more about using

9 this intermezzo prior to the Assembly to tour a location that was

10 accessible by helicopter from Pale. However, when we got there, we

11 realised the problem was a bit more serious than we had imagined.

12 Q. So essentially what was the problem and how serious was it?

13 A. It was not very serious. It concerned rumours of betrayal

14 regarding the Neretva valley and those intra-personal differences between

15 people that are common at any time. But that was the reason why we went

16 down there.

17 Q. You already said that there were accusations targeting the

18 president of the Assembly, Mr. Branko Simic. Is that Mostar or Nevesinje

19 Assembly?

20 A. I said vice-president of the Assembly and deputy to the Assembly

21 of the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina. One of the

22 vice-presidents and also deputy MP in the Assembly of the Serbian People

23 of BH.

24 Q. The vice -- the bit of the vice-president didn't come over in the

25 transcript, Mr. Krajisnik.

Page 24086

1 So -- all right. You said that Mr. Simic, the accusation was that

2 he had betrayed the Neretva valley. Could you be more specific? What was

3 he said to have done which amounted to betrayal, and who? Who had been

4 betrayed according to his accusations?

5 A. Well, when things go downhill on the ground, then people start

6 blaming each other, accusations fly. And the army was accusing the

7 civilian authorities and he personally, although he had no particular

8 authority. He didn't command the JNA or any other troops. As if he had

9 said to the people manning the front lines, "Come on, people, withdraw

10 now. Pull out." And it wasn't true.

11 There is a letter that I sent on the instructions of the Assembly

12 to the Main Staff asking them to investigate into the source of those

13 rumours targeting him, because he ended up being bad-mouthed for years and

14 falsely accused without any proper foundation.

15 Q. Was any constructive resolution or understanding achieved on that

16 visit to Nevesinje?

17 A. Nothing much. Things were cleared up, and all those present said

18 that it wasn't true. However, that did not put an end to the rumours

19 circulating among the people. So it was decided that Mr. Simic would go

20 with us back to Pale and help with the work of the Assembly, and that's

21 what happened.

22 Throughout the war he worked together with me at the Assembly. We

23 prepared Assembly sessions together, chaired them together, et cetera.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, you've indicated you weren't at this meeting

25 on the 8th of May. Nevertheless, I want to ask you about conclusion

Page 24087

1 number 5. Do you see on the minute in front of you the "The following

2 conclusions were adopted at the meeting," 1, 2, 3, 4, 5: "That the

3 Ministry of Justice propose how the state borders of the Serbian Bosnia

4 and Herzegovina should be marked (to decide on the dimensions of signs and

5 how to put them up, et cetera)."

6 Mr. Krajisnik, starting from the naive position that normally the

7 ministry of justice runs the courts and the ministry of transport do the

8 road signs rather than the other way around, what -- why was the -- can

9 you say, why was the Ministry of Justice being asked to decide on

10 dimensions of signs and so on?

11 A. Well, you can see for yourself right at the beginning of this

12 paper that it was a meeting of the government, and they had to assign this

13 task to somebody. They must have thought it was primarily a legal matter.

14 And as for the execution itself, namely who was going to put up a road

15 sign and where, that was a technical job that could have been done by any

16 worker, I suppose.

17 You can see right at the beginning that they were dealing with it

18 themselves. They were canvassing for ideas. There was nobody, just the

19 deputy prime minister.

20 Q. Was there, at this point, Mr. Krajisnik, in early May, 1992, was

21 there clarity about where the state borders of the Serbian Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina actually were?

23 A. No. It was supposed to be -- I know about this idea. There was

24 supposed to be a hoarding somewhere showing that there is such a thing as

25 Republika Srpska, maybe on the Drina River or at some other possible

Page 24088

1 location, because they thought it was a symbol. It should stand

2 somewhere. But it wasn't the case, certainly, that the territory was

3 clearly designated and that the borders were known. Certainly not. This

4 was designed to assert Republika Srpska, to indicate that it exists, that

5 it was doing something.

6 Q. Was there work going on within any of the government organs to try

7 to work out where the boundaries of Republika Srpska should be drawn?

8 A. Well, all right. We were all drawing some maps, including the

9 government, but it was more wishful thinking and background material. But

10 it was just underlying support to our proposals for conferences. I

11 guarantee wherever there was a front line, and that consumed four-fifths

12 of the entire territory, there was not a single hoarding except for the

13 area facing Croatia. But it was completely out of the question to put it

14 between Sarajevo and the central part of Republika Srpska, and that was

15 never done.

16 MR. TIEGER: Before Mr. Stewart moves on, perhaps it's a failing

17 on my part, but the word "hoarding" was used twice in a context I'm not

18 familiar - not the context, but I don't understand the meaning of that

19 word in that particular context. Don't know if it's a problem for anybody

20 else.

21 MR. STEWART: I thought I did understand it, but perhaps in at

22 that case it's much better to ask Mr. Krajisnik to explain.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said, Mr. Krajisnik, "I guarantee wherever

24 there was a front line, and that consumed four-fifths of the entire

25 material, there was not a single hoarding except for the area facing

Page 24089

1 Croatia."

2 The translation of the word you used, which is translated into

3 English as "hoarding," is not clear to Mr. Tieger, perhaps not even to

4 others as well. Could you please explain what you meant by the word,

5 unknown to me, in your own language, which is translated to us as

6 hoarding?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note Mr. Krajisnik cannot be of

8 assistance. Hoarding is British for billboard.

9 JUDGE ORIE: It's not American for billboard. I do understand.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, after that interpreter's comment,

11 perhaps I can say what I was very slightly hesitant to say. It was

12 perfectly clear to me and to Mr. Josse, as it happens, because, well,

13 we're English aren't we. We have that disadvantage and advantage. The --

14 this is a big board. For example, if anybody has travelled between

15 Sarajevo and Pale in the last year or so, they will come across such a big

16 board which I would call a hoarding. Mr. Tieger, does that help?

17 MR. TIEGER: Immensely. I'm grateful both to the interpreter and

18 Mr. Stewart.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The matter has been clarified now, Mr. Krajisnik.

20 MR. STEWART: They took our language with them, Your Honour, but

21 they didn't take all of it all the time.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, then item 7 was "To set up a state commission for

25 assistance to refugees at the level of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 24090

1 The commission should be attached to the Ministry of Health, work, social

2 security, and the family."

3 That was -- the minister was Dr. Kalinic, that minister, wasn't

4 he?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Sorry, I thought I heard somebody or something. The -- were you

7 involved in any way in the setting up or the work of that commission?

8 A. No, but I can assist by telling you what it was about.

9 Q. Yes. Well, please do, Mr. Krajisnik.

10 A. Humanitarian organisations kept visiting, and they wanted to have

11 a partner at a lower level in order to distribute that humanitarian aid to

12 refugees also on the Serb territory, and this is a precursor for the

13 commission for refugees. It was in touch with UNHCR, the International

14 Red Cross, fighting for our convoys, fighting for convoys to pass through

15 our territories towards the Muslim territory, assisting the supply of

16 humanitarian aid. The real name of this is the Commission for Refugees,

17 and that's the way it was written into law later.

18 Q. Did you personally have up-to-date information, as far as you

19 could tell, about the scale or extent of refugees in Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina at this time? 8th of May, 1992.

21 A. I think nobody had true information. But as for me, and I can

22 only speak in my own name, I did not have any information as to how many

23 refugees there were either in Republika Srpska or at the level of Bosnia

24 and Herzegovina as a whole.

25 Q. And Dr. Kalinic, how wide were his responsibilities?

Page 24091

1 A. Right at the outset of the armed conflict, Dr. Kalinic was a

2 surgeon at the military hospital in Koran. Since there was not enough

3 senior staff and there was another representative before him in the health

4 department, he was appointed minister. He had two areas of expertise,

5 health care and the social component, the refugees, the sick and the

6 infirm, et cetera.

7 On behalf of in Karadzic, he attended one meeting and signed an

8 agreement in Geneva under the aegis of the International Red Cross on the

9 Muslim side and the Croat side concerning that aid. Later that became two

10 Ministries. So at the beginning, he had very large jurisdiction, because

11 health care and refugees are two very big issues in a war.

12 He explained it very well in an interview that he gave to the OTP.

13 The Office of the Prosecutor is aware of all his work, because I got that

14 interview from the Office of the Prosecutor.

15 Q. We have that, Mr. Krajisnik. The -- then point -- a number of

16 suggestion were made, and this is towards the end of the -- this meeting.

17 Number 3, although there seem to be two number 3's, but the first number 3

18 is, "To prepare amendments to the constitution and call a session of the

19 Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina as soon as possible.

20 In this connection, a certain number of deputies should be elected as soon

21 as possible."

22 Were you personally pressing to have a meeting of the Assembly,

23 Mr. Krajisnik?

24 A. I think at these consultative meetings one of the leitmotifs was

25 to convene, by all means, an Assembly of the Serb people, and I certainly

Page 24092

1 was pushing for overcoming those territorial obstacles in order to hold

2 this session.

3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you can put that minute on one side as we, and the

4 next one --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, it's two minutes from quarter to two. I

6 don't know whether it makes any sense to start a new document at this very

7 moment.

8 MR. STEWART: I was hoping Your Honour would intervene because it

9 doesn't from my point of view either, so I --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I saw you already looking at the clock.

11 MR. STEWART: Well taken, Your Honour. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: This means that we will adjourn for the day.

13 Mr. Krajisnik, it's standard instruction not to speak with anyone

14 about the testimony already given and still to be given. You'll hear that

15 a few more times from me.

16 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44, to be

18 reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day

19 of May, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.