Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24253

1 Thursday, 18 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

10 I take it that the parties have also received a set of documents

11 provided by Mr. Krajisnik this morning.

12 MR. JOSSE: No, Your Honour. I don't think they've been

13 distributed. I think that -- I think the habit --

14 JUDGE ORIE: They're about to be.

15 MR. JOSSE: I think the habit of the court staff, the registrar,

16 and the legal officer - and I don't blame them for this at all - is not to

17 distribute documents like that without the leave of the Court.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's a correct approach.

19 MR. JOSSE: Could I make one observation in addition to this? We

20 prepared a short bundle of documents last night. I got those to

21 Mr. Tieger fairly late yesterday afternoon and had a chance to discuss

22 them with him. With his agreement, they were given to Mr. Krajisnik about

23 ten minutes ago, and Mr. Krajisnik has indicated, through the usher, to

24 whom we're very grateful, that all bar one of the documents that we have

25 selected are in his bundle. I hope that's a useful starting point.

Page 24254

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And -- so that means that the bundles are more

2 or less of the same content apart from one document?

3 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Krajisnik's bundle clearly has additional

4 documents.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What I suggest is the following: First of all

6 that we check whether the documents are in evidence. When I looked at the

7 first one this morning, just first page, I thought that it looks very

8 familiar to me, and with the great assistance of the registrar, he is now

9 able to give me P272, which is the document which we find as the first one

10 in Mr. Krajisnik's bundle. So what we first should do is to see whether

11 these documents are already in evidence. At least the first one is,

12 that's the order to the post office in Pale to disconnect some telephone

13 numbers, P272. So therefore, the parties are invited - and I think to the

14 extent the registrar could assist us, he will certainly do so - to find

15 out whether this is material already in evidence, yes or no.

16 Second step would be for the material which is not yet in

17 evidence, the parties try to identify what kind of documents we have in

18 front of us. I'll leave that at this moment to the parties, and I'd like

19 to find out whether the parties would use those documents in their -- in

20 the examination of the witness, because if so, we don't have to

21 specifically pay attention to that at this stage as something added by

22 Mr. Krajisnik which was not envisaged by the parties to deal with. And

23 then, of course, if there's any -- if there are any remaining documents,

24 that means not yet in evidence, not intended by the parties to be covered,

25 then of course we should pay attention to the remainder and see whether

Page 24255

1 with -- whether the Chamber would invite Mr. Krajisnik to explain what

2 these documents are and why he has drawn the -- our attention to it. But

3 then perhaps they should be first translated -- or at least that we should

4 consider to have them translated, perhaps on the basis of what the parties

5 tell the Chamber is approximately the content of these documents. So

6 without giving a full explanation but say: This is a decision by the

7 Crisis Staff which deals with so-and-so matters. And then we can decide

8 whether there's any need at that moment to have it -- to have a full

9 translation and whether to address the documents, yes or no.

10 Mr. Tieger.

11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the Prosecution is happy to facilitate

12 this process in any way we can. I should mention that the -- at least one

13 of the Court's suggestions seems to presuppose a degree of cooperation

14 with the Defence that has -- that doesn't precisely exist. Mr. Josse and

15 I had contact yesterday in anticipation of what I understood to be his

16 intended use of these documents so that he could simply indicate the

17 documents, provide the Prosecution with some brief summary to the extent

18 he could of the portion of the document he intended to focus on and the

19 general substance of the document. That's as far as our discussions have

20 gone. Therefore, if we were to move on to the next phase of the process,

21 that is the proposed submission of documents without translations, we

22 would be utterly at a loss and certainly not prepared to deal meaningfully

23 with such a submission.

24 So at this point, as indicated, we're more than willing to

25 exercise as much flexibility as possible to assist the Defence in

Page 24256

1 presenting its evidence in a reasonable manner, but the limitations should

2 be clear, and we really don't know much about these documents and we are

3 -- we have a responsibility to understand the document in full before we

4 can respond to submissions or before we can be prepared to cross-examine

5 about them.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So there is a clear reservation as far as the

7 OTP is concerned, but we'll then hear from you if it comes to that.

8 MR. JOSSE: My position, I think, is this, Your Honour: That I

9 was ready to continue with the examination of my client on this particular

10 topic, based on the documents that we had selected. Bearing in mind there

11 are additional documents here, I think the prudent course would be for me

12 to move to another topic and come back to this, frankly, on another day.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that was more or less my suggestion as

14 well, to first identify whether we have them already, and then of course I

15 would not expect you within five minutes to say the others are vital or

16 not vital or are going to pay attention to it and whether you would want

17 to have them introduced without having a full -- full translation. Yet,

18 of course, it also very much depends on what kind of documents we're

19 dealing with. If it's a document which -- no, we'll leave it to the

20 moment when you come back to that.

21 I take it, Mr. Tieger, that you would at this moment not object to

22 the proposed way of proceeding by Mr. Josse? Okay. Then let's proceed.

23 Mr. Krajisnik, after I have reminded you, again, that you are

24 still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of

25 your testimony.

Page 24257

1 Mr. Josse, you may proceed.

2 MR. JOSSE: I hope that everyone now has the intercept that was

3 erroneously not in the bundle yesterday. This is the conversation between

4 the witness and Ratko Mladic, dated the 24th of May, 1992.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has it.

6 MR. JOSSE: It bears the exhibit number P154, tab 33, and as I

7 observed yesterday, as far as the Defence are aware this has never been

8 played and I would like it to be played at this point, please.

9 [Intercept played]

10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:

11 "Yes.

12 Hello.

13 Yes, please.

14 Good evening.

15 Good evening.

16 Mr. Krajisnik's office.

17 Yes, please.

18 Is General around?

19 It's me.

20 One moment, please.

21 Yes.

22 Mladic.

23 Good evening, General.

24 Good evening. Can you hear me?

25 Perfectly. Can you hear me?

Page 24258

1 I hear you, but be careful, there is -- between us ...

2 I know, I know ...

3 ... mediator.

4 ... I understand everything.

5 Okay.

6 Has Minister Mandic arrived down there?

7 He was here today, but, I don't know, it seems that he left.

8 He will come down there.

9 Okay.

10 And we should ... I will find him.

11 Okay.

12 I have to give him some information.

13 Okay.

14 And now I will try and see if there is a guy with a jeep here.

15 Okay.

16 And please, when he arrives ...

17 Okay.

18 A piece of information that he conveys is related to this

19 information.

20 Okay.

21 We should do that no matter what it takes.

22 Okay.

23 So I will try and find him now, and if I don't find him ...

24 Okay.

25 ... I'll send someone with a jeep to bring it to you in the

Page 24259

1 morning.

2 Okay.

3 Because, I believe you have other things to do tomorrow, regarding

4 this relocation. Right?

5 No problem.

6 If it wasn't late, you would see it now, because this is a serious

7 piece of information that I've got.

8 Okay.

9 Okay. I'll try and find someone, but please, when he comes, if

10 there are any problems, I'm quite sure you'll agree upon that.

11 No problem.

12 But this information has confirmed that the problem is even more

13 serious than I thought.

14 Okay. This is what we'll do, up there, at my place, there is ...

15 Yes.

16 At Milovanovic ...

17 Yes.

18 ... if that's not possible, if the weather's nice tomorrow

19 morning, it should be transported with that device ...

20 Yes, yes.

21 That Milovanovic went by ...

22 Yes, yes.

23 He will come to my place, he's already on his way, just call

24 him ...

25 Is he on his way to your place already?

Page 24260

1 No, no, but he can deliver it on his way.

2 Of course.

3 Milovanovic, has he been with you today?

4 No, he wasn't here.

5 He wasn't?

6 And it would be good if you're in touch with him, he could come by

7 and I could give him this for you.

8 No, no, he's not going to be coming here... it's not a problem if

9 it comes to me in the vehicle.

10 Okay. Anyway, you'll receive this, this evening or tomorrow

11 morning.

12 No problem.

13 Okay.

14 Otherwise, how are you?

15 Well, I'm fine, I'm just a little bit concerned about certain

16 things, I think everything's fine.

17 Everything's going to be just fine, don't be worried ...

18 The God willing, General, right?

19 That's right, ha, ha, ha.

20 Ha, ha, ha.

21 The God willing and if we do it.

22 No, no, I know that, sometimes God can use a little help.

23 That's right, we should help him.

24 Thank you very much.

25 Let me tell you, this thing went fine today, these here were fair

Page 24261

1 mostly, they've been breaking my nerves the whole day, and I don't think

2 I'll be able to manage until they ... we start in the morning, and the

3 relocation is being carried out in the evening.

4 Such problems I've had this evening.

5 Because of what?

6 Our people came here, asked me questions about the drivers that

7 came back.

8 Aha, don't you worry about anything ...

9 But I tried like a real politician, and I could hardly convince

10 them.

11 Just tell them it's better that way, we care for lives.

12 Yes, yes.

13 And we'll take care about everything else.

14 Yes, of course. Very well.

15 Everything's going to be all right, President, don't you worry.

16 Okay.

17 We offered them peace, and they accepted it, I can see that

18 they're doing it the way they should now, had they done it like this

19 before, none of this would have happened.

20 I know, it would sure be better than the other way.

21 Don't you worry about anything, President ...

22 Okay.

23 Everything's going to be all right, don't you worry. We'll take

24 care of those things that we have talked about, you know, dislocation.

25 Yes, yes.

Page 24262

1 And speaking about mine -- it will have to wait.

2 Yes, yes.

3 I will have to stay longer, I feel great here.

4 No, no, [Realtime transcript read in error, "New York City"] I

5 completely agree, it's all right.

6 Here by Miljacka.

7 You know that.

8 Everything's all right next to Miljacka.

9 Yes. I received information about those up there doing a great

10 job. I'm sorry about today, the line was bad, but I think it's good over

11 there in Lisbon.

12 Is that right?

13 Aha. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

14 Okay, thanks, bye.

15 You're welcome, bye.

16 Say hello to everyone.

17 Thanks a lot, bye.

18 Bye."


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examination by Mr. Josse: [Continued]

22 Q. What is the serious piece of information that you had before --

23 no, wait.

24 I'll repeat my question, Mr. Krajisnik. What is the serious piece

25 of information that you had for Mr. Mladic?

Page 24263

1 A. I do apologise, but I don't understand. Here it says "New York"

2 where it should say Lisbon in the text. You can take a look for

3 yourself.

4 Q. It says "Lisbon" in the English.

5 A. Yes, yes, I heard Lisbon, but on the monitor, on the screen, it

6 came up as New York. Perhaps I'm wrong.

7 JUDGE ORIE: It was translated as Lisbon, it appears in the

8 writing in Lisbon, and the -- usually the transcripts are corrected during

9 the evening hours to take out any mistakes.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. Very well.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was -- I was at Pale, and

13 Mr. Mladic was in Lukavica. At the time he was already commander of the

14 Main Staff. He helped the representatives of the Yugoslav People's Army

15 in the dislocation of barracks, moving of barracks, the barracks of the

16 Yugoslav People's Army, that is, which had still not been moved to a

17 different location because of the blockade, the siege laid by the armed

18 forces of the other side, that is to say the Muslim side. And at the time

19 the Muslim side demanded that a certain quantity of weapons be given them

20 by the Yugoslav People's Army, for them to be able to enable these members

21 of the Yugoslav People's Army to leave the barracks. And this convoy of

22 weapons was supposed to arrive from Belgrade via Pale going on to

23 Sarajevo. I received information to the effect that the citizens, that is

24 to say the population, the inhabitants, for the convoy to be able to pass

25 through had learnt about this exchange, that they were angry, and that

Page 24264

1 they could attack the column. Because I had provided this information to

2 Mr. Mladic, they chose a different route and handed over the weapons at an

3 UNPROFOR building in Sarajevo. They handed over the weapons to the -- the

4 representatives, that is, of the Yugoslav People's Army and the General

5 Staff from Belgrade. Now, I'm, telling him, I'm saying to him that

6 Mr. Mandic will bring him that information because the government has

7 charged some sort of coordinator in the name of the government to receive

8 -- for Mr. Mandic to receive this information, although his role was none

9 other than to try and collect up the necessary information so that people

10 knew what they had done. And today, I handed over two contracts, the ones

11 that you sought yesterday, about the relocation of barracks. You have the

12 exercise book that I handed over to you this morning.


14 Q. Now, is that in the binder that you handed to everyone this

15 morning?

16 A. Yes, that's right, that's right. The binder, the two contracts

17 between the Yugoslav People's Army and the Presidency of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is at the end. It's the first document from

19 the end; that's how I put the binder together. One is dated the 10th of

20 May, the other is dated the 18th of May, 1992.

21 MR. JOSSE: In fact, Your Honour, Mr. Tieger and I had some

22 discussions on this topic as well yesterday. Neither of us, on a cursory

23 glance of the exhibit list, were able to identify the matter -- the

24 documents as being there. That's not to say they aren't there. I hope I

25 speak for both of us fairly in that regard.

Page 24265

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It might be a document that -- since the

2 Chamber asked whether it was in evidence, yes or no, to have this one be

3 translated with urgency because the Chamber would like to have a look at

4 it.

5 MR. JOSSE: Well, Mr. Sladojevic has identified the two relevant

6 documents from the bundle and has extracted them for me. Well, Your

7 Honour, I'm anxious to deal with this at this juncture. I don't think I

8 can put this subject off as well. Could I hand these two to

9 Mr. Krajisnik? They're from our bundle, but it's an easier way to do it

10 if any --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have that here.


13 Q. Extract them, Mr. Krajisnik, because we want to identify them,

14 want numbers given to them, please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall we put it on the ELMO so you

17 can follow?


19 Q. That would be a good idea.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be, Your Honours, D193 and D194.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In your binder this is the first

23 document from the end. I can read the title and tell you who signed.


25 Q. Do that, please, slowly.

Page 24266

1 A. "Contract on the departure of commands, units, and institutions of

2 the JNA from garrisons-barracks, column, Zenica, Travnik, Konjic, and

3 barracks and institutions in Sarajevo done on the 10th of May, 1992, in

4 Sarajevo at the offices of the UNPROFOR. Contracting parties: 1,

5 Presidency and the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina; 2, representatives of

6 the JNA; 3, EC monitoring team; 4, personal envoy of Lord Carrington,

7 Mr. Doyl." And it would be important for you to see who signed at the

8 bottom.

9 We see two stamps here. The first is the stamp of the command of

10 the 2nd Military District, I believe, and the second, it says: "Republic

11 Secretariat for the National Defence, Sarajevo." That means the

12 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. On the left-hand side, number 1, "for

13 the Presidency," signed by Fikret Abdic and Stjepan Kljujic. 2, "for the

14 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina," signed by Jerko Doko. 3, "JNA

15 representative, Major-General Milan Akentijevic." On the right-hand side,

16 number 4, EC monitoring team, Mr. Antonio Nanes; and number 5, personal

17 envoy of Lord Carrington, Mr. Doyl, Kolm Doyl.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you said that you see a stamp of the

19 2nd Military District. Could you tell me which one of the two stamps that

20 would be. I don't any reference to military districts.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Forgive me, please. I made a

22 mistake. It's the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina, Sarajevo. That's the first stamp at the top. And the other

24 one is the Republic Secretariat for National Defence, Sarajevo. So both

25 stamps are of Sarajevo.

Page 24267


2 Q. Could I just ask you, Mr. Krajisnik, looking at the first page of

3 this document, we see some manuscript in the left-hand margin. Do you

4 know whose handwriting that is?

5 A. I've already tried to decipher it. This document was prepared and

6 then the representatives concerned made corrections and initialled it on

7 various pages. And we see handwritten notes on the margins; we see that

8 on the screen. But further below in the document, there are other

9 corrections that have been initialled. These here are just notes on the

10 margin that I cannot decipher.

11 Q. So as far as you are aware, these are parts of the original

12 document; they're not notes that you or anyone that you know had added

13 subsequently?

14 A. No, no. You're right. This document was found at Pale on the

15 premises of the government, and I think the OTP didn't take the document

16 at the time because they were not interested then. But all those

17 documents were at the disposal of the Office of the Prosecutor. And

18 later, going through the documents, we found this one. And I received it

19 from my Defence team just after arriving at the Detention Unit. I didn't

20 think originally that it would be important to us, and that changed only

21 yesterday when the Presiding Judge sort of assigned me to find these two

22 documents.

23 Q. Let's look, if we may, at the one that bears the date of the 18th

24 of May. Again, perhaps if you read the title, we might be able to work

25 out the difference.

Page 24268

1 A. Could I just give a brief explanation before I do that? The first

2 contract we saw was the general one, and this is a contract of a more

3 specific nature. I'm reading now: "Contract on the evacuation of

4 commands, units, and institutions of the JNA from the Sarajevo garrison

5 done on the 18th of May, 1992, in Sarajevo on the premises of the


7 "Contracting parties:

8 "1. BH Presidency and government.

9 "2. The Yugoslav People's Army.

10 "3: UNPROFOR."

11 And although perhaps the entire document is important, it would be

12 a good idea to look at the signature because there are also certain

13 additions made, all of them initialled.

14 "Signed:

15 "1: For the Presidency of the Republic of BH."

16 Two names typewritten: Fikret Abdic and Stjepan Kljujic."

17 There is one signature I cannot decipher which means that not both

18 of them signed this.

19 "2: For the JNA: Colonel Branko Cadjo.

20 "3. For the UNPROFOR: Colonel K. Hoglund."

21 This concerns the relocation of barracks from Sarajevo.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse and Mr. Tieger, I hardly can imagine that

23 such a document would have been signed on behalf of UNPROFOR without an

24 English translation, unless Mr. Hoglund was mastering the -- what we now

25 call the B/C/S language. Could we try to find out whether a translation

Page 24269

1 does exist, either made at the time or made later.

2 MR. JOSSE: I'll -- we will -- we will make an inquiry of such

3 people as we have in Pale. Limited as that is, frankly, that's all we can

4 do, but we undertake to do that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

6 MR. TIEGER: That effort is underway, I believe, even now and I

7 will confirm it by e-mail immediately.


9 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


11 Q. Mr. --

12 A. Excuse me. I am producing here what I received.

13 JUDGE ORIE: No need to apologise. You are kind enough to -- to

14 find the documents. I'm addressing counsel to see whether they have any

15 translation.

16 Please proceed.


18 Q. Going back to the intercept, it may be obvious but let me ask you

19 anyway: Why was Mr. Mladic continually telling you not to worry during

20 the course of that conversation?

21 A. Because at that time a significant difference appeared between our

22 interests, the interests of Republika Srpska, and the interests of the

23 Yugoslav People's Army, because many people on our side failed to

24 understand. The Yugoslav People's Army and the General Staff wanted to

25 pull out, at all costs, both civilians and recruits and women and children

Page 24270

1 from the garrisons under siege, and I personally believed it to be

2 completely justified. They were being blackmailed, in a way, into handing

3 over a certain amount of weapons, and our people find -- found it hard to

4 swallow, this handover of weapons. Mr. Mladic was then commander of the

5 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, but at the same time he was

6 assisting the representatives of the Yugoslav People's Army who were

7 holding a lot of things back, even from him, because he was formerly on

8 the other side. When we had this problem of a group of unhappy people who

9 came bent on creating an incident, I was afraid that something might

10 happen that would result loss of life, and I was telling him constantly

11 that there could be a problem so that he should know.

12 There was this meeting with us that he attended, and we talked

13 about enabling the JNA to leave. We had to be neutral, but the least we

14 could do is not make it harder for them, and that's why he was saying:

15 Don't worry. We'll keep it all under control.

16 Our role was to be bystanders. We could not be involved, and even

17 Mladic could not get involved, and you will be able to see that from the

18 series of conversations that he, Mladic, had with Fikret Abdic. All this

19 was orchestrated by the JNA from Belgrade.

20 Q. When you talk about the Chamber being able to see that from the

21 series of conversations that he, Mladic, had with Fikret Abdic, you're

22 referring to other intercepts that you have seen, are you?

23 A. Yes. I apologise, but Mr. Josse and I reviewed a great number of

24 intercepts that we received from the Office of the Prosecutor, and I am

25 now saying that there are a lot of conversations intercepted between

Page 24271

1 Mr. Fikret Abdic and Mr. Mladic other than this one.

2 Q. Let's move on, if we may, to the next conversation, which was

3 three days later. This is P67, tab 32, and also P292, KID31423.

4 MR. JOSSE: It's been played twice already, Your Honour; in the

5 course of Mr. Treanor's evidence at 1740 of the transcript, and in the

6 course of Mr. Kljujic's evidence at 6093. But, frankly, it's of such

7 importance that the most sensible way for me to proceed is for it to be

8 played yet again.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On your list, on your cover page, it is what

10 number?

11 MR. JOSSE: 186.

12 JUDGE ORIE: 186, thank you.

13 [Intercept played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: The English interpreter hasn't found the text.

15 We are very sorry.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could we stop it? Could we stop it so that the

17 English interpreter first finds the text. You've got the bundle. It's, I

18 would say, just before half, approximately, and the cover page of that

19 specific intercept bears as the first number 186.

20 THE INTERPRETER: We have got it now. Sorry, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the -- could we restart playing the --

22 MR. JOSSE: From the beginning?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we missed some of it, so that's -- we

24 can play it.

25 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Thank you.

Page 24272

1 [Intercept played]

2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:

3 "Hello.

4 Hello.

5 Ratko MLADIC: Good morning. This is Mladic, the general here.

6 Good morning.

7 Ratko MLADIC: Is Momo there?

8 Yes, would you hold on a sec, please.

9 Ratko MLADIC: Please put him on. I need to speak with him

10 pronto.

11 All right. Immediately.

12 Ratko MLADIC: Hello. Yes.

13 Here, the Speaker is on his way. Hold on, please.

14 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

15 Ratko MLADIC: Good morning, President.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good morning.

17 Ratko MLADIC: How are you?

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well, okay. Did you sleep well?

19 Ratko MLADIC: I slept well. Look, I need to tell you. We have

20 done our part of the airport deal totally, so it should be publicised.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right.

22 Ratko MLADIC: There are some individual shots there. They opened

23 fire, but we don't fire back.

24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I'm doing that immediately this morning.

25 Ratko MLADIC: Yes. Momo is on his way down there.

Page 24273

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

2 Ratko MLADIC: With these Boskovic and the others and they will be

3 doing their job down there. Yeah. Hello?

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes, I can hear you.

5 Ratko MLADIC: I'm going further, as planned, and tomorrow I'll

6 stop by to get new instructions.

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Excellent.

8 Ratko MLADIC: So we'll arrange for that for what we should do

9 next.

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right.

11 Ratko MLADIC: I have given Tolimir some instructions at France

12 and elsewhere. Mm, all right. Here. I still don't have exact

13 information on the area towards Ivan Sedlo but I hope we'll somehow manage

14 somehow to --

15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We have consolidated that Trovrh a bit, so

16 that, too, is excellent.

17 Ratko MLADIC: That's excellent. I told Manojlo to strengthen it

18 a little.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: You know we have a kind of situation here.

20 Ratko MLADIC: Yes.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: It doesn't matter. It's just that this

22 doesn't befit the Serb people. It can say much.

23 Ratko MLADIC: Yes.

24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We are having a grand robbery of cars down in

25 Vogosca.

Page 24274

1 Ratko MLADIC: Let's not talk about that. Oh, yes, yes, you

2 should prevent that from happening.

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes, yes, but let me just tell you.

4 Ratko MLADIC: Yes?

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We have to send our military police there to

6 arrest those people.

7 Ratko MLADIC: No, no, military police is not to be used like

8 that.

9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: It's not, is it?

10 Ratko MLADIC: Don't, no, no. You have civilian police and let

11 the civilian police do their job.

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right.

13 Ratko MLADIC: There's also this --

14 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: These people doing --

15 Ratko MLADIC: In Zunovnica, Momo.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

17 Ratko MLADIC: In Zunovnica they steal military equipment and sell

18 it to the Muslims.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No, if we do things like this, we will fail.

20 Ratko MLADIC: That's right.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No way, nor can these misdeeds be done by

22 honest people. There it's --

23 Ratko MLADIC: There. Civilian police should take care of this.

24 I told the same thing to that guy in Vogosca. They told me the other day

25 that people from the Ministry of the Interior should take control of this.

Page 24275

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right, deal.

2 Ratko MLADIC: This ministry and the judiciary should do their

3 jobs.

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: General, every people that has a general like

5 you like this is lucky.

6 Ratko MLADIC: Let me ask you.

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes?

8 Ratko MLADIC: What do you think I give a brief interview up there

9 and call on younger pensioners to join the mobilisation?

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That would be excellent for the homeland,

11 defensive war.

12 Ratko MLADIC: Excellent.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There. No problem.

14 Ratko MLADIC: Deal.

15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There will be a man up there who will join you

16 as planned. Up there at Sokolac.

17 Ratko MLADIC: Excellent. But let him come to that centre.

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He knows. He knows where, too. You will be

19 at the same place and he will be at Sokolac, you know.

20 Ratko MLADIC: All right.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Deal.

22 Ratko MLADIC: All right. Cheers.

23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Bye.

24 Ratko MLADIC: Bye."


Page 24276

1 Q. What was your concern about the grand robbery of cars?

2 A. Information came -- was coming in that this storage place for

3 vehicles in Vogosca was exactly on the separation line where there was

4 only a fence between two sides and those cars are being looted on a large

5 scale. People were just driving them away. We had heard about that and

6 it was discussed at this consultative meeting, and I thought since the

7 army was down there I should tell him so that he can send military police

8 to protect the location. And he tells me here that it's not the job of

9 the military police, that the MUP should take care of that. As it

10 happens, he was wrong, but I was just asking him to do something about it,

11 to stop it.

12 Q. He pretty clearly refuses to help you out in the way you ask. How

13 did you feel about that?

14 A. Well, you can see here that this conversation took place in the

15 morning. I would always get to work on time. And, as I said,

16 Mr. Koljevic and Mrs. Plavsic were at Jahorina and then they would come in

17 a little later, as would Mr. Karadzic. So, most probably, before that he

18 had asked to speak to Mr. Karadzic, although that's not on the tape here.

19 And then, since I was there, he is then referring to something that we

20 discussed at a meeting all together and where he presented these problems.

21 So the essence of this is the following: If you recall, there was a

22 protected witness who testified here, and when he asked him whether it was

23 possible - he was a military man - whether it was possible for a general

24 on the 12th of May, 1992, who was appointed general should say in his

25 speech that he knows who his supreme commander is and that he had some

Page 24277

1 sort of dilemma whether I was part of that supreme command. The clear

2 answer was that he did know this and that we were talking here as two

3 individuals, each having their own functions. So not all the conclusions

4 were correct of those who attempted to represent this as being a

5 conversation between the civilian command, myself, and a -- somebody

6 subordinate in the army. Because here we can say that he -- see that he

7 refers to me by name, and we would refer to each other by name in familiar

8 terms. So Momcilo Krajisnik had no competencies there; he was fully aware

9 of that. And from the 12th to the 27th, when the Presidency was elected,

10 he knew who each member of the Presidency was. So the substance of this

11 conversation was as if you would be talking to anybody occupying a

12 responsible function and asking him to help solve a problem down there in

13 Vogosca, because we're all on the same assignment, after all. And you'll

14 be able to find that, or find the transcript of what the protected witness

15 said. I asked him that. I asked him the question. And I can tell you in

16 private session who the man was, who the witness was. And that's how it

17 was. In the 12th of May speech, he said quite clearly: My supreme

18 commander is such-and-such. The law on constitution is quite clear, and

19 in 15 days' time, he couldn't have thought that I was the supreme

20 commander, which led to an erroneous conclusion on the part of those who

21 did not link up all these events. So that's the substance of it.

22 It was morning. I was there always on time. I don't know where

23 Mr. Djeric was; he lived nearby. But the others didn't live nearby in

24 Kikinda, and Mr. Mladic is saying this -- well, from up there, so that

25 means it wasn't in Lukavica. I don't know where this other place was.

Page 24278

1 Q. In a moment's time I'm going to put to you what a number of

2 different Prosecution witnesses have asserted about this conversation, but

3 just before I do that, at the very top of the second page in the English,

4 Mr. Mladic says to you: "I'm going further, as planned, and tomorrow I

5 will stop by to get new instructions."

6 What did you understand by that remark and from whom was he going

7 to get those instructions?

8 A. I have already explained that we were all in Kikinda and, most

9 probably, in that common room a consultative meeting was held, attended by

10 Presidency members and myself and Mr. Mladic and the rest. I was abreast

11 of what he was supposed to do, if I can put it that way. I believe I was.

12 And this was probably related to the relocation of the barracks and what

13 his role ought to be in that respect. And he, quite simply, tried to

14 explain what he could do from his position when we have Mr. Boskovic

15 there, a general from the JNA, and representatives -- other JNA

16 representatives. And this can be -- best be seen later on. So, most

17 probably, referring to the fact that I had attended that meeting, that he

18 would come pursuant to instructions, not from me, but that he come there,

19 he behaved in a very military fashion there and put it that way, although

20 what he said he said as an independent, autonomous person, with full

21 authority, because as a soldier he knew how to do this better than

22 civilians who were now -- who now didn't know what their role was nor

23 could they contribute to the commanding of a professional officer, to give

24 him any instructions or orders or anything like that. When I say that, I

25 mean the Presidency and the supreme commander.

Page 24279

1 Q. To some extent you have dealt with some of the assertions that I'm

2 about to read out, but if there's anything you want to add, this is an

3 opportunity, Mr. Krajisnik. Mr. Treanor said that this intercept was

4 significant because it shows you dealing directly with Mr. Mladic on

5 certain issues, particularly coordination with the Ministry of Internal --

6 MR. TIEGER: As requested before, page reference numbers, please,

7 if possible --

8 MR. JOSSE: Yes, I -- the reason I didn't do that is I had given

9 that earlier, but the answer is 1740.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And would you, by any chance, have a date?

11 MR. JOSSE: Yes. The 27th of February, 2004.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.


14 Q. I'm going to have to repeat that question, Mr. Krajisnik.

15 Mr. Treanor said the intercept is significant because it shows you

16 dealing directly with Mr. Mladic on certain issues, particularly

17 coordination with the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

18 A. Well, I wasn't in contact with Mr. Mladic here; he was in contact

19 with me. He contacted me. He called Kikinda and asked to speak to me. I

20 assume he didn't find any of the others. He knew that I had attended this

21 meeting, probably the one where he was talking about in the presence of

22 Presidency members. And, quite simply, he wanted to talk to me although

23 all this conversation is an empty conversation. He was a newly appointed

24 general at the time. He just wanted to ring up and talk to someone, and

25 he might have given fuller information to somebody else, or maybe not

Page 24280

1 because it was an open line. But anyway, he -- Mr. Treanor is quite wrong

2 there on that score. And you'll see that another witness overrides what

3 he said. He was a protected witness, he was a military man, and he quite

4 clearly said there is no general -- there is no general who does not know

5 who his supreme commander is, from a meeting from the 12th to the 27th of

6 May. And he attended the meeting and knew what position I held, so that's

7 quite logical. And you will find what Mr. Mladic said at the meeting of

8 the 12th of May where he states quite clearly who his supreme commander

9 is. There's no dilemma on that score. It's quite another matter that

10 Mr. Treanor, because he was harbouring a delusion, had a different thesis

11 and tried to back it up and justify it. So this was a conversation as if

12 I was talking to anybody, any other member of the Main Staff.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

14 MR. TIEGER: Again, I am very reluctant to interfere in any way

15 and want to see as much latitude as possible, but characterisation of

16 witnesses as harbouring delusions -- I mean, Mr. Krajisnik is obviously

17 blending in some argumentation with the presentation of facts. I

18 understand that's inevitable and I haven't risen, but I just want to keep

19 it within bounds.

20 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I don't accept that objection at all.

21 It's quite permissible, in my submission, for Mr. Krajisnik to comment on

22 a Prosecution witness by saying that that witness is harbouring delusions.

23 There's nothing wrong with that remark, it's quite proper, and the

24 objection is most improper.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 24281

1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber's decision is that you can continue the

2 examination and that there's no specific reason to say that this was

3 improper.

4 At the same time, Mr. Krajisnik, the Chamber mainly listens to

5 what it sees and might not follow strong wordings, but at the same time

6 does not prevent you from expressing in the way you did.

7 Please proceed.


9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, unless you --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but may I be given

11 some instructions, please? May I ask the Court something for guidance?

12 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, you're a witness, so it seems that you

13 think that Mr. Treanor was wrong. There's no problem in telling us that

14 Mr. Treanor was wrong and that you even strongly oppose against his views,

15 so there's no problem. The Chamber will look at what Mr. Treanor said and

16 the reasons why you disagree perhaps more than the language you use in

17 order to explain that to us. Is that clear enough?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, might I just be

19 allowed to be given clear-cut guidelines by you so that I can tell you and

20 you can tell me whether I'm right in --

21 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, may I make a remark?


23 MR. JOSSE: I am concerned about this because later on, probably

24 today and certainly in the course of the next few days, I'm going to go

25 through with Mr. Krajisnik the evidence in outline of a number of

Page 24282

1 witnesses and he may well make some rather robust remarks about those

2 witnesses' veracity.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll try to explain.

4 Let me give you an example, Mr. Krajisnik, if that would guide

5 you. If you really disagree with what someone said and you find that not

6 only wrong but very wrong, you could explain to us that it's totally wrong

7 what he said and totally unacceptable. You, of course, could also say

8 that he's an idiot. Well, the one might come close to the other. If you

9 explain to us why he's wrong, what his misinterpretations were, then

10 whether you add to it that it was an idiot or not an idiot does not

11 perhaps assist the Chamber very much. It's, rather, the explanation you

12 give that we are able to follow. And if you add to that that someone, for

13 example - I'm just giving an example - would be an idiot, then of course

14 the Chamber is aware that what your emotions are when hearing that

15 testimony or how you understand that testimony to be. We're not keeping

16 you off from doing it; at the same time, you should be aware of what you

17 are expressing at that time. Of course the Chamber is primarily

18 interested to know why you consider it totally wrong, what the witness

19 said, and if you find it important for us to express some of the emotions

20 it brings to you by using such kind of language, we'll not stop you from

21 doing it, but please be aware for yourself what you're conveying to the

22 Chamber. Yes.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I need to be given

24 some instructions. I seem to be making mistakes, but I'm -- I don't feel

25 that I'm making mistakes. So can I just be allowed to explain why I said

Page 24283

1 what I said? I understand what you're telling me, but I would like to add

2 something, if I may.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We feel no need that you add anything. It's not held

4 against you that you use these words, otherwise we would have stopped you,

5 but I hope that my guidance was sufficient. Let's proceed.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.


8 Q. If I may say, Mr. Krajisnik, I think what the learned Judge said

9 is clear, and just bear in mind what he said.

10 A. Very well.

11 Q. I would like to move on to Mr. Kljujic's assessment of the

12 intercept that we've just heard. He said that it took place in the

13 context of the subordination of the political and military leadership of

14 the Bosnian Serbs, that it's indicative of your authority through informal

15 channels, and that you knew a lot about the situation on the ground.

16 That is at page 6093 on the 27th of September, 2004.

17 A. Mr. Kljujic was not well-versed in this matter and explained it

18 quite erroneously. Now, what I want to explain now is something that

19 would probably be outside my domain, so I'm going to be handicapped on

20 that score. I don't know whether I can say what I want, that's why I

21 wanted to clear this up a moment ago.

22 Q. Please say what you want, exactly what you want. That's what the

23 learned Judge has just said.

24 A. Mr. Kljujic and all the witnesses that you enumerated, witnesses

25 who -- some were expert witnesses, some were witnesses who had a certain

Page 24284

1 amount of authority. Anyway, I wanted to indicate certain evidence and

2 logics in order to substantiate my own statement because we don't have an

3 expert witness that would be presented as a counterpart to Mr. Treanor and

4 be able to provide an explanation. That's why I asked for a little

5 leeway; thank you for your understanding. Because it is my aim to help

6 you, to assist the Court, to have as many arguments as possible, because

7 you can't have just one brain, there's no one brain that can pull all this

8 information together.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Just give your explanation, please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Kljujic signed -- well, I said

11 that Mr. Kljujic was not right and that he wasn't informed about the

12 matter, and I can guarantee here and now that he signed the contract on

13 the relocation of the barracks, which means he said something without

14 having the necessary knowledge and said that I was the commander. He

15 doesn't know that the Assembly meeting took place, he doesn't know who the

16 commander was, Mr. Mladic; he knows nothing but he wants to say something

17 anyway. He is quite incompetent in the matter. I don't want to say

18 anything bad about any man; that wouldn't be proper. But the truth is

19 that he didn't have the knowledge as to who the supreme commander was and

20 who was subordinate or superior to whom. And I can state quite definitely

21 that the text was as I had explained it to you. Had I been his commander,

22 he wouldn't have addressed me as "Momo." He didn't say "Supreme

23 Commander." And when he said "President," when he referred to me as

24 "President" or "Speaker," it would be like me saying to him "General."

25 It's according a title out of decency and proper conduct, if you like.

Page 24285

1 Manners.

2 Q. Mr. Brown, at page 16220 --

3 MR. JOSSE: I'm afraid I don't have the date, Your Honour.

4 Q. -- when asked about this intercept, said that it would seem to be

5 that a senior member of the Bosnian Serb leadership was able to speak to

6 Ratko Mladic and give him instructions, and that would seem to show that.

7 A. Well, there we go. It's the same example. Let me explain. I'll

8 explain why Mr. Brown is not correct on that score. It's not right.

9 Mr. Brown does not know which premises I was on. He doesn't know that

10 Karadzic was late. He doesn't know that Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic

11 were at Mount Jahorina. He doesn't know that an Assembly was held 15 days

12 prior to that. He doesn't know that we enacted a law on defence, because

13 Mr. Mladic proposed the law and he knows who the supreme commander is. He

14 does not know that Mr. Mladic at that time worked to help with the

15 relocation of the barracks. He knows none of these facts, and he doesn't

16 even know what this "Momo" means and what the reference to "President"

17 means or "Speaker" means, whereas he's trying back up his point of view,

18 his thesis.

19 Now, I would have asked him these questions had I been in a

20 position to do so, but I wasn't. And of course my Defence counsel weren't

21 able to ask him that because we hadn't prepared for those kinds of

22 questions and answers. But as I say, his conclusion is quite erroneous.

23 It was by some inertia that he was moved to make these erroneous

24 conclusions. He was just swayed that way.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I'd like to make one brief comment. That

Page 24286

1 is the following: Mr. Krajisnik, when you're still sitting there, I think

2 this Chamber has never denied you any request to consult with counsel for

3 additional questions to be put to a witness. I leave it to that for the

4 time being.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to move away from the intercepts for a

8 little while. I'm going to begin the witness exercise. Some may think

9 this a strange choice, but I'm going to begin with John Wilson and I'm

10 going to begin with him because it has some bearing on the military

11 matters to which you have just been referring to. He said of you at page

12 13064 that you were central to the negotiations regarding the airport;

13 that you were quite clearly, by the group dynamics, involved; clearly

14 consulted; involved in discussions to decide when there were breaks; and

15 quite central to the final agreement that the airport could be handed over

16 to the UN.

17 What do you say about that?

18 A. I do not recall a single meeting which I attended when there was a

19 discussion about an airport. Not a single meeting of that kind. I don't

20 remember ever having seen Mr. Wilson until I was sitting here in court,

21 which does not exclude that I happened to be at a meeting when he was with

22 one of the representatives of the Serb side and put in charge of the

23 matter of the airport. It was Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Koljevic who were in

24 charge of the airport. And on behalf of the government, it was Mr. Mandic

25 and I don't know who else, to assist. And on the 27th, or perhaps the

Page 24287

1 28th of June, the airport was handed over. That was Vidovdan, St. Vitus

2 Day, and on that day I was at Ilijas and it was Mr. Koljevic and

3 Mr. Karadzic who were at the airport, because that was when the airport

4 was handed over. Before that, and as far as I remember, at that time the

5 president of France, Mr. Mitterand, was visiting, so that gives you a

6 rough idea of the time and events. They discussed the conditions, and for

7 a time there was Mr. Mladic, for a brief period, and Mr. Ostojic included

8 in the negotiations, but I was never there myself, not one single time.

9 So I don't know how come Mr. Wilson mentioned me as having attended a

10 meeting and someone having consulted me.

11 I even attended meetings where resolute demands were made of

12 Mr. Koljevic to explain under what conditions and why the airport was

13 handed over in the first place, and I know that there was a government

14 session which I did not attend where the members asked to be informed

15 about how this handing over of the airport came about. So what Mr. Wilson

16 said I completely deny because I don't ever remember ever having seen the

17 man, and whether I had any meetings with him in some other circumstances,

18 I really don't know. But this is possibly why he arrived at that

19 erroneous conclusion.

20 If he had a meeting in Lukavica, for instance, and if I happened

21 to be in Lukavica in some other office on some other business while he was

22 having talks there with someone, he might have thought that they were

23 stepping outside to consult me. But the fact of the matter is as I have

24 explained it to you, connected to the airport. There are telephone

25 conversations, there are many arguments which testify to who the

Page 24288

1 participants in the airport negotiations was. You have the SRNA news

2 agency reports as to who signed Mr. McKenzie and the others, but the name

3 Momcilo Krajisnik is nowhere mentioned because it was just not my job to

4 do things like that. So I don't exclude the possibility of my having been

5 perhaps at Lukavica and he might have been in some other office and

6 thought that someone was leaving the office to consult me, but that's just

7 not true. I had nothing to do with the whole airport issue at all. The

8 airport was handed over in two stages; one for humanitarian purposes and

9 the second time permanently to the UN forces and their use.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, my apologies for not listening better when

11 you said, "I am moving away from the intercepts." I have two very small

12 informative questions about the last intercept played.

13 Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Mladic is speaking about the area towards Ivan

14 Sedlo. I have got no idea where that is. Could you tell me where it is.

15 Not in detail, but is it in Sarajevo area or is it somewhere else?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's as you go from Mount Igman

17 towards Mostar. That is to say south of Sarajevo, down there in

18 Herzegovina.

19 JUDGE ORIE: At a distance of approximately, from Sarajevo?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's maybe as much as a

21 hundred kilometres away. It's not close, anyway. I don't know what he

22 was actually talking about there. Probably he had given out some

23 information or received some information the day before and then continued

24 along those lines.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said: We have consolidated at Trovrh

Page 24289

1 a bit. I have got no idea what that is. Is that a place, is that ...

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a repeater station at Zepa

3 where a unit was destroyed. The Muslim forces had taken control of it and

4 then we were informed that the situation had been put right, although he

5 probably knew that already. I do apologise. Just a moment, please.

6 There refers more to the climate and general mood at Pale that prevailed

7 around this Trovrh because it was a forerunner to what was to happen later

8 on.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Repeater station, that's radio communication

10 used for public broadcasting?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, both radio and television

12 repeater stations, or station. It wasn't operative; it was just a point

13 that had been damaged. And it's referred to as Trovrh because it is the

14 dominant elevation, but there was a repeater station there anyway and

15 something was damaged, I can't remember exactly what. But it is this

16 Trovrh where you have the relay station. Whether it was operational or

17 not, I really don't know.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say the Muslim forces had taken control of

19 it, but the situation had been put right. Does that mean that Serb forces

20 had re-taken control or -- or that you, by any other means, by any

21 diversion, got those radio signals where they would have to go?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. This has to be completely

23 -- this was completely separate from the radio signal. I'll tell you

24 what our interest in this was. Some people had come and reported that

25 there were some civilians besieged at some sort of platform encircled by

Page 24290

1 the Muslims and nobody knew anything about their fate. And it was

2 probably about those people who were the crew of this retransmitter. I

3 must have been talking about them. They were encircled by the Muslims,

4 and I don't know how this was resolved. But the whole problem was about

5 those people, who could easily get killed, and some did get killed, as far

6 as I know. I didn't mean that some military action had been taken. I was

7 just talking about dealing with the problem, saving those people. It must

8 have been an operation that had nothing to do with Mladic because

9 obviously he didn't know anything about it either.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, needless to say that you raised the issue

11 during a telephone conversation with Mr. Mladic, Mr. Krajisnik.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik.

13 Yes, Judge Hanoteau has a question.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik, I just wanted to

16 know how you were informed. How were you informed about what was going on

17 at a hundred kilometres or 150 kilometres from where you were?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Trovrh, which means

19 three-point summit, is in the Romanija area, Mount Romanija. It is

20 connected territorially with Pale. How I received that report, I don't

21 know, I can't remember anymore. Maybe there was a telephone line or maybe

22 somebody had come to tell us. In any case, all the news, good and bad,

23 spreads very fast. But it happened in that area that wasn't severed from

24 us, it was accessible. You could travel on the ground as well. There was

25 a duty officer there in Kikinda, and he must have received this report

Page 24291

1 during the night. And there was also the reports and information sent

2 that was operating. In any case, I don't remember how, but I received

3 this report that morning when I came to work.

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I don't think I'll finish General Wilson

6 off before the break.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then expectation should come through, so we have a

8 break now. We'll adjourn until 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.13 a.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, please proceed.


13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, there's been some discussion in the break amongst

14 the Defence team about the learned Judge, Judge Hanoteau's question, and

15 in particular where Trovrh is. If I give you a clean map of Bosnia, could

16 you mark it?

17 MR. JOSSE: Yes, the Madam Usher, very helpfully, suggests on the

18 ELMO. Could Mr. Krajisnik be provided with the relevant-coloured marker.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Which is the black one. And could we zoom in a bit

20 so that we ...

21 MR. JOSSE: That's it.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Trovrh should be somewhere on the

23 boundary between Pale and Gorazde, if I remember correctly. It should be

24 written -- the name should be written somewhere.


Page 24292

1 Q. We have not been able to locate it.

2 A. I think it should be somewhere there, but I really can't make out

3 what this says. It should be here where I'm pointing, but I'm not sure

4 because I can't make it out. I think that it's here on this stretch, but

5 I'm not sure because I don't see it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: What we see, perhaps, on that map is an elevation, I

7 think it is at so many and then 74 metres where the text comes close to

8 what we find in the -- okay. Well, you have situated that.

9 Mr. Krajisnik, then perhaps, since we have the map in front of us, then

10 Ivan Sedlo as well, please, if you could find that.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ivan Sedlo should be somewhere

12 between Sarajevo and Mount Jablanica. It could be here. Let me just have

13 a look. It's near Konjic, which means it could be a bit further below.

14 Right here. That's where Ivan Sedlo is, somewhere.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then for the record, the marking south-east of

16 Sarajevo is Trovrh, and then the marking -- overmarking further to the

17 west is Ivan Sedlo.

18 MR. JOSSE: Does Your Honour want that exhibited?


20 Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

21 THE REGISTRAR: D195, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I would like to have a closer look at the

23 exhibit. Could it be put from the ELMO, and could it be given to us?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One more reservation. I cannot be

25 accurate because I cannot identify it exactly, but it should be somewhere

Page 24293

1 there.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Parties are invited to verify the correctness, and if

3 there's any serious doubt about it, to report to the Chamber what in

4 their, preferably common, view is the location of these two places.

5 Please proceed.


7 Q. I'm returning to the evidence of Mr. Wilson. He made some -- what

8 are very general observations about an important aspect of this case -

9 some would say to put it mildly - and that is the relationship between the

10 political leaders of the Bosnian Serbs and General Mladic. He was asked

11 about this, of course, in the context of the airport negotiations, and he

12 said: "It seemed to be a very comfortable relationship. They were

13 relaxed in each other's company. There was a free exchange of

14 information. General Mladic was not afraid to disagree with members of

15 the political leadership, but in the end he claimed that he was

16 subordinate to the political leadership and followed their direction."

17 This was at page 13066.

18 A. I believe Mr. Wilson gave what was a true picture at the time,

19 because the handover of the airport was within the jurisdiction of the

20 civilian authorities, and although Mr. Mladic as a soldier was involved in

21 a way, it was within the jurisdiction of Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Koljevic and

22 some other personalities. I know there were a lot of participants who

23 were members of various commissions that were involved in the handover and

24 take-over of the airport, but I personally wasn't.

25 Q. One final aspect of Mr. Wilson's evidence. He described meeting

Page 24294

1 you at the International Peace Conference for the former Yugoslavia in

2 Geneva at the end of 1992/the beginning of 1993. He was asked about your

3 role as he observed it, and he said: "Mr. Krajisnik did not have a lot to

4 say. I assume this is because he didn't speak English, but certainly he

5 was very carefully consulted by Mr. Karadzic. He sat at a central part of

6 the table, and he seemed to be a very important member of the delegation."

7 This was at page 13077.

8 A. I don't rule out the possibility that Mr. Wilson attended that

9 meeting because the representatives of military authorities -- military

10 representatives were frequently part of the teams from the international

11 community and the European Community. On our side it was usually

12 Mr. Mladic and Mr. Tolimir who were military representatives. I remember

13 the name "Wilson," but the Wilson I remember was a general from England.

14 I met with him several times, but it was at a later stage. I simply

15 couldn't place this man as if I had never seen him before. I never

16 discussed the airport with him, and he doesn't look to me like the person

17 -- like the Wilson I knew. The Wilson I knew was not in Geneva; he was

18 close to the top man on the ground. I think it was a Belgian general. I

19 can't remember his name.

20 Excuse me, as for my role, if I understood your question

21 correctly: Our delegation, Karadzic, Koljevic, Krajisnik, and, most

22 frequently, Buha, always sat at the main table, and the other three

23 parties sat opposite us; international representatives, Muslim, and Croat

24 representatives. We were the negotiators, we were the negotiating team.

25 And those who assisted - if that's what he means - usually sat behind us

Page 24295

1 or sometimes didn't even attend. As for my role, it is true that

2 Mr. Karadzic chaired the talks as head of delegation, but we simply talked

3 about all the issues. He consulted others, not only me. He always wanted

4 to consult all the other members of the delegation because he was one to

5 say more people know more, and he was always looking for a shared opinion

6 rather than imposing his own. When necessary, he consulted us, and at

7 other times he would simply table his ideas and proposals for discussion.

8 I didn't speak mainly because I didn't speak English, and if that was the

9 procedure, if that was in order, I was able to say something to

10 Mr. Karadzic. The interpreter usually sat next to me, and the

11 conversation was in English and I had no time or opportunity to say much.

12 But most importantly, I am not denying that I took an active part in those

13 talks aimed at establishing peace, but the way that he interprets that and

14 his conclusion that I had a strong influence is a wrong impression because

15 we worked as a team, and we were absolutely committed to finding the best

16 solution.

17 Q. I'm now going to move on to a completely different topic and a

18 very different witness, and I'm going to ask you about the evidence of

19 Milorad Davidovic. Before I do that --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, before you continue, I noted that in

21 relation to these meetings questions were put to Mr. Wilson as far as

22 confronting the delegation with accusations of ethnic cleansing were

23 concerned. You have not dealt with that. May I take it then that at

24 least you do not expect any further information from this witness on the

25 matter?

Page 24296

1 MR. JOSSE: I'm afraid I don't follow Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, some questions were put as to what was put to

3 the other delegation also in terms of --

4 MR. JOSSE: I understand that bit. It's the very last remark of

5 Your Honour. You do not --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

7 MR. JOSSE: It's those words I don't follow, "any further

8 information."

9 JUDGE ORIE: As it stands now, the witness has given his comment

10 on the influence he would have. He has not given any -- no questions were

11 put to him in relation to whether in this respect the testimony of

12 Mr. Wilson is contested. And to be quite honest, I don't remember exactly

13 what was asked in cross-examination, but of course it is a matter which is

14 not without importance.

15 MR. JOSSE: Well, may I make two remarks?


17 MR. JOSSE: First of all, I'm working from some potted notes, and

18 for what it's worth - and I'm not criticising the person who has prepared

19 these for me - that isn't within the notes that I'm reading.


21 MR. JOSSE: Secondly, what I am very aware of is, of course, time.

22 We are certainly at some point going to deal with Mr. Krajisnik's

23 knowledge of events --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I just wanted to -- perhaps you can understand

25 this as -- but you seem to be aware of that, that knowledge. And this is

Page 24297

1 of course, since we specifically deal with this portion of the evidence,

2 that knowledge is -- is part of that evidence.

3 MR. JOSSE: Could I make this observation?


5 MR. JOSSE: There are, of course, certain upsides in doing things

6 in the way that I am now doing it, namely dealing with specific witnesses.

7 There is also a downside. The downside is it all becomes jumbled

8 chronologically.


10 MR. JOSSE: And we are aware of the advantages and disadvantages,

11 and to some extent, as best we can, we are trying to weld these two

12 completely different approaches to Mr. Krajisnik's evidence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear to me. Please proceed.


15 Q. I'm going to move on, as I've already said, to the evidence of

16 Mr. Davidovic, but before I do that, I don't think, to the best of my

17 recollection - and I'll be corrected if I'm wrong - you have yet been

18 asked about your knowledge of events in Bijeljina in early April, 1992,

19 and in particular, Mrs. Plavsic's visit there and her dealings with Arkan.

20 So perhaps you could begin by telling the Trial Chamber what you know of

21 those events.

22 A. The events in Bijeljina came under the competence of the

23 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the delegation at one point in time

24 was a BH government delegation visiting Bijeljina, and on another occasion

25 it was a delegation of the Presidency, which we heard about here, which

Page 24298

1 included Mrs. Plavsic. Now, as far as what Mrs. Plavsic said and

2 recounted is quite a different picture. She said it publicly at a press

3 conference, and it was - how shall I put this? - much more positive,

4 without placing the blame on anyone, compared to the picture depicted by

5 the Presidency and put out publicly as to why it sent its delegation, its

6 own delegation. I did not consider it to be in my remit to deal with

7 this, nor did I do so, but I knew about the problem, I knew about the

8 issue. What I did do, however, is this: I called a deputy to come to

9 Bijeljina when these things were going on. I was in the offices or

10 cabinet of the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this man's name was

11 Mr. Novakovic, and I asked him what was going on. And he said: I can't

12 tell you over the phone, and somebody snatched the receiver away from him,

13 and I heard the voice of a man who says: While you're sitting down over

14 there, we're doing your work for you. And who was that? That was

15 Mr. Mauzer. So I didn't learn know anything more than that nor did I know

16 anything more than that. Afterwards, as some sort of power and authority,

17 he interrupted the telephone conversation, put down the receiver, and I

18 didn't make an effort to learn anything more about that. But all the

19 knowledge and all the actions were very far from being within my

20 competence, nor did I deal with matters of that kind because I considered

21 that legitimate legal organs of Bosnia-Herzegovina existed on the one side

22 and the Yugoslav People's Army on the other, who were supposed to see to

23 that unfortunate event, as we referred to it, but then we later on saw

24 that this was a much more serious problem, in fact.

25 Q. So what did you learn of Mrs. Plavsic's visit there?

Page 24299

1 A. I didn't learn anything about it from her because she was in the

2 Presidency and I was in the Assembly, but I heard, in listening to her

3 press conference, I heard her say that it was not correct and that even

4 Mr. Abdic said that it was -- that what Mr. Izetbegovic dramatically --

5 how he dramatically presented the situation just wasn't correct. So,

6 quite simply, they shut themselves up in the Presidency, and then another

7 delegation went to Brod and then Kupres, and they would send out

8 delegations in this way to try and deal with the situation which was a

9 pre-war situation, in fact.

10 And I can tell you of what story I heard later on as to what

11 happened in Bijeljina, but that is second-hand, hearsay information. But

12 this was, anyway, several years later and I think it was presented here

13 and that story was told here by someone, if I remember correctly.

14 Q. Mr. Davidovic alleges that he was involved in a number of

15 conversations in Bosnia and Belgrade, where both you and Mr. Karadzic were

16 present, and that Frenki and Arkan attended and you spoke to them. More

17 specifically, he said that one of these took place in Bosanska Villa. He

18 went on and said: "Whilst we were sitting down, there was a kind of

19 preparation for us in -- and the federal SUP and the units of the state

20 security service that Frenki was in charge of would be sending down, and

21 Arkan came in with his people. And his people were there as well in the

22 course of those talks and we all talked together and there was a

23 distribution of tasks being decided, who was supposed to do what." And

24 clarification was sought on the issue from the learned Judge, Judge Orie.

25 And he, Mr. Davidovic, said both you and - as he called him - President

Page 24300

1 Karadzic were there. This is at approximately page 14256.

2 What do you say about all that?

3 A. Never in my life have I seen Mr. Davidovic. As far as I'm

4 concerned, he is somebody I do not know, and it is quite incorrect that I

5 ever sat down at a table in that way. I didn't even know Mr. Arkan

6 before. In 1995, I happened to come upon him by chance in Bijeljina for

7 three minutes. I didn't know what the man looked like before that. So

8 what Mr. Davidovic is saying - and I followed his testimony closely - he

9 corrected his impressions of the meeting later on. It would appear that I

10 and Karadzic were in the hallway, whereas they were sitting down at a

11 table and preparing the matter. You can check that up, but I remember him

12 saying that afterwards. Now, whether somebody was sitting at a table

13 while we were in the same villa, perhaps, at that time, I cannot exclude

14 that. I can't rule that out. But it is quite erroneous, absolutely

15 incorrect, that I was sitting down at a negotiating table with him.

16 Neither did I sit with Arkan or Stanisic or the other Stanisic or Frenki

17 or anybody else, nor did I attend that meeting, nor did I know about this

18 action he was to launch. You can find that portion, and you'll see that

19 later on he corrected himself and said that we were in the hallway,

20 corridor, while they were sitting at a table somewhere. I remember that

21 well. I remember him correcting himself on that score. But as I say, I

22 don't remember him at all. I didn't utter a single word to him. We never

23 spoke at all.

24 Q. He said a couple of pages earlier in his evidence -- he was asked:

25 "What was your source of information that Mr. Karadzic knew about Arkan?"

Page 24301

1 And he said: "Well, Mico Stanisic informed me of that, and a

2 number of occasions I was in Sarajevo and Pale and Vrace when contact was

3 established and the people I was with spoke about this."

4 Can you comment on Mico Stanisic's relationship and knowledge of

5 Arkan?

6 A. I don't know what their relationship was, but I do know about the

7 relationship between Karadzic and Stanisic, and I can assert that it was

8 normal and that Mr. Stanisic could talk to Karadzic. As for Arkan, I

9 really don't know whether he knew him, what their relationship might have

10 been, if at all, or anything like that. I do believe that he made a

11 statement about that, we can check it out. He was here, he can probably

12 confirm it.

13 Q. Sorry, who are we talking about?

14 A. We're talking about Stanisic. Stanisic was here in the Detention

15 Unit, and I assume he made a statement, but that can be checked, too,

16 whereas I don't know myself. I can't say.

17 Q. You mean before he was given provisional release?

18 A. That's what I assume. He was in another area of the unit. I

19 assume he had to make a statement and was then released; I don't know that

20 for a fact, of course.

21 Q. In his witness statement, which is P764, Mr. Davidovic said that:

22 "Mico Stanisic, who at this time was stationed in Bijeljina, came to see

23 me whilst I was in Bijeljina and said that he had a request from the SDS

24 leadership that something be done about the gang that was out of control

25 and running around Zvornik. Mico Stanisic told me that Radovan Karadzic

Page 24302

1 and Momcilo Krajisnik had told him that they were sick and tired of the

2 problems with Zvornik."

3 What do you say about that, Mr. Krajisnik?

4 A. I knew that there was someone -- or rather, that there was an ugly

5 situation going on in Zvornik. And at the consultative meetings that we

6 had, Mr. Stanisic was very often criticised and said -- and told that this

7 had to be settled because people couldn't act arbitrarily and do what they

8 liked over there. So that's as far as my knowledge goes.

9 Your Honours, you have the minutes from a government meeting where

10 the government is giving Mr. Stanisic an assignment to go to Bijeljina and

11 see the matter through, and he went after that. Now, I have read those

12 minutes, the record. So the government made it incumbent upon him, after

13 the consultations held, to go there. Now, whether he was there with

14 Mr. Davidovic or not, I really don't know, I can't say. But judging by

15 all he indicators, it does seem that he did have some sort of contact with

16 him.

17 Q. In the same witness statement, he said that: "Mico Stanisic had

18 advised that these paramilitaries were not under the control of the army,

19 that they had allegedly arrived in Bijeljina, and were still under the

20 control of Mauzer and Arkan. Colonel Ilic told me that these

21 paramilitaries apparently had the full support of the SDS in Bijeljina,

22 that they were exclusively SDS members, and they also had the support of

23 Karadzic and Krajisnik."

24 What do you say about that assertion?

25 A. As for the situation and any support from Momcilo Krajisnik, there

Page 24303

1 can be -- there was absolutely none of that. That's completely incorrect.

2 I didn't know at the time about his conflict with the leadership of the

3 SDS - and I'm thinking of Mr. Davidovic. He wasn't somebody that I

4 thought about. And Mr. Mauzer, that is true, was -- there was a special

5 unit from Bijeljina. And people from Bijeljina saw them as being an elite

6 unit. That's true, but not the SDS but all the citizens from Bijeljina.

7 At that time when this was going on, what the relationship was with Arkan

8 and what role and links Arkan had with Mauzer, I really don't know. It

9 was something that was completely alien to me. But Mauzer was not

10 negatively assessed by the leadership, as far as I knew, the leadership

11 from Bijeljina. Not the SDS but anybody who meant anything in Bijeljina,

12 prominent people in Bijeljina. As far as Mr. Davidovic is concerned and

13 their links and Mr. Arkan and their links and relationships, that's

14 something I know nothing about. I had absolutely no need to meddle in any

15 of this, nor did I lend my support to Mr. Mauzer, nor did I, at the back

16 of my mind, ever think that I should lend my support to somebody, nor was

17 that necessary. He had support because they were proud of these Panthers

18 of his. Later on all this changed, of course.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I seek one clarification, Mr. Josse.

20 You said, Mr. Krajisnik: "But Mauzer was not negatively assessed

21 by the leadership, as far as I knew, the leadership from Bijeljina, not

22 the SDS."

23 Could you tell us: Who were the non-SDS members, if any, in the

24 Bijeljina leadership?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said not only the

Page 24304

1 leadership but the whole people from Bijeljina. It was the generally

2 accepted view. Now, who was in the leadership there I cannot remember.

3 But, for example, to quote an example, people in power in the SDS, if

4 that's what you're interested in, but I meant that it was the general

5 opinion in Bijeljina, the prevailing opinion in Bijeljina.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's what it says first where you said: "And

7 people from Bijeljina saw them as being an elite unit, that's true, but

8 not the SDS but all the citizens from Bijeljina," which I understood to be

9 not SDS, people excluded from that. However, a few lines later it says:

10 "Mauzer was not negatively assessed by the leadership, the leadership

11 from Bijeljina." And then it reads in our transcript, "not the SDS," but

12 I do understand that in that respect you also said the whole of the

13 leadership, the SDS not excluded from them. Is that a correct

14 understanding? That would be in line with your earlier -- with the

15 earlier part of your testimony.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The leadership -- who was

17 in the leadership? Probably mostly members of the SDS, but not because

18 they were members of the SDS, not by that virtue, but because they were

19 leaders in Bijeljina. So it was from those positions that they lent their

20 support, and it was an elite unit.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did they ever express that -- do you have any

22 knowledge of them expressing that they said: Once we assess Mr. Mauzer in

23 such-and-such a way, this is not a party view, but this is just our view

24 as -- I don't know exactly what leadership would then mean, but from other

25 positions -- is that distinction which you make now, was that ever, as far

Page 24305

1 as you know, expressed by those who made assessments of Mr. Mauzer?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me help you out here,

3 Mr. President. Mr. Mauzer, very soon, took control of the police station.

4 He did something bypassing the leadership, so their inclinations towards

5 him changed. Now, which leadership? The president, the Executive Board,

6 the president of the Assembly, that's what I mean, if I can term that to

7 be the leadership. So I don't exclude the representatives of the SDS

8 either, the key people. But the key people in Bijeljina who meant

9 something is what I mean when I say when I think about the general concept

10 of leadership. Perhaps they were members of the TO or commanders. So I'm

11 speaking in general terms, not specifically. I know that there were none

12 of these prominent personages who had anything negative to say about him

13 at that time.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And would you -- when you're talking about these

15 prominent personages, could you give any example of someone who was not an

16 SDS member who expressed himself in such a way that it could not be

17 understood to be a negative expression?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I cannot quote an

19 example here and now. I can't quote the example of a statement by

20 such-and-such. All I know is the prevailing opinion at that time and the

21 impression one gained, or perhaps somebody had conveyed what the situation

22 was like. But if I were to be concrete and say it was the president of

23 the Executive Board or the Assembly who said this, then that would be

24 guesswork on my part. But the general impression I gained - and I think

25 it was the right impression - that all the people over there, both your

Page 24306

1 ordinary citizen and some functionaries as well, considered him to be the

2 commander of the elite unit of Bijeljina and they were proud of him. So

3 that was the general impression that I gained and I'm almost certain that

4 that was the prevailing opinion at that time.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm trying to find out to what extent that

6 impression or that assessment was shared by all -- by all ethnicities in

7 Bijeljina. That was the reason for my questions. If you could add

8 anything -- yes?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said I'd tell the truth. I

10 contacted with the Serbs, so there's no question of me contacting the

11 Muslims, for example. I would probably have received a different answer.

12 I'm talking about the leadership with whom I had some sort of contact.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, that clarifies the matter. Thank you.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


16 Q. Moving on to a different aspect of Mr. Davidovic's evidence, and

17 this relates to his suggestion that he saw a document signed by yourself

18 that authorised the resettlement of people in a humane way. He said that

19 he was shown this document by a man called Djurkovic from Bijeljina, and

20 that Djurkovic said that he shouldn't be obstructed in his work. And it

21 said: "The president of the Assembly" in the heading of the document, and

22 your signature was upon it. Later on --

23 MR. JOSSE: That, Your Honour, was at 14318.

24 Q. In cross-examination at 15282, he was asked about the document.

25 He said: "In the upper left-hand corner it said 'president of the

Page 24307

1 Assembly.' There was a signature. I can state with certainty that it was

2 him." And then he describes why he wasn't able to get hold of the

3 document at the time.

4 Any truth in this allegation, Mr. Krajisnik?

5 A. Well, there's not even one-thousandth of a part of the truth

6 there. Let me repeat: I never issued a document like that, a document to

7 Mr. Vojkan Djurkovic - there's a mistake in the name here - nor did I have

8 any contacts with him. And let me remind the Trial Chamber here, that

9 when I asked Mr. Davidovic a question, wanting to show him a document

10 which resembled what he might have seen at the time -- well, I wasn't

11 successful in that, I didn't succeed in doing that. So my answer is: I

12 had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with that. And I think that it

13 was not that he was not telling the truth, but he was under an illusion,

14 although some thing in certain cases he was not telling the truth.

15 Q. Well, I will come later on in my questioning to his motivation for

16 saying these things. But dealing with this in a bit more detail, he said

17 -- this is Mr. Davidovic, that he spoke to Dragoljub Micic and said: "I

18 can't confront that. I'm familiar with that very same document." And he,

19 Dragoljub Micic, apparently had asked you about it and you told Mr. Micic

20 not to meddle in the matter.

21 MR. JOSSE: Now, I see my learned friend saying it's Mr. Mandic --

22 MR. HARMON: No, no, no. Could I just have a page reference, Your

23 Honour?


25 MR. JOSSE: I think this is at 14318 or thereabouts.

Page 24308

1 Q. In the transcript originally it said Mico Mandic. That was later

2 corrected to Dragoljub Micic. This definitely involves -- the allegation

3 involved your dealings with Dragoljub Micic; there's no doubt about that.

4 What do you say about that, Mr. Krajisnik?

5 A. That is invented, something that's been invented. And when

6 Mr. Davidovic testified, our investigators contacted Mr. Micic, and he

7 made a statement which was confirmed and which you have in which he

8 explains that he never talked about this to Mr. Davidovic. So I'd like to

9 have you show the statement or perhaps call -- no, you can't call him

10 because he's just suffered a heart attack. But there is a statement that

11 was certified by the Court where he denies those allegations. We also

12 have Mr. Djurkovic's statement certified in the same way. You have all

13 those documents and you can see for yourselves. You have Mr. Momcilo

14 Micic's statement when he replaced him, what he said about Vojkan

15 Djurkovic, but he never contacted Mr. Davidovic. You have those

16 statements in your possession, and they were certified by the Court. So

17 -- well, he even said that Micic presented this before the Assembly.

18 Now, you have records from all the Assembly meetings. That issue was

19 never on the agenda. He heard about that somewhere and then just

20 recounted it further. And as I say, I'm sure you'll be showing the Trial

21 Chamber that document in due course, the one I wanted to show them, so

22 that they could see what this was about. A document does exist but not

23 Momcilo Krajisnik's document.

24 Q. I'm going to ask you some specific questions and try to give a

25 specific answer. Who was Dragoljub Micic?

Page 24309

1 A. Dragoljub Micic was a deputy from Bijeljina. He was together with

2 me in the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Serb Assembly as well,

3 and he is Momcilo Micic's brother, Momcilo Micic being the man who

4 testified here.

5 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, this implicates a matter that was

6 raised yesterday - I believe it was yesterday - in connection with the

7 introduction of -- it was a discussion about statements or documents and

8 the distinction between the two, the 92 bis implications, and so on. We

9 discussed that in reference to the submission of statements that hadn't

10 met the requirements of 92 bis. The Court is aware of our objection, and

11 that issue was tabled for consideration by the Defence, presumably. In

12 light of our position, that should not be circumvented by the -- by

13 eliciting testimony about those statements in lieu of simply submitting

14 them; it's the same problem.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, it seems that it would not be hearsay

16 evidence but see-say evidence.

17 MR. JOSSE: Well, two observations: The first is that I didn't

18 invite that answer to the question, and Mr. Tieger didn't suggest that I

19 did. Indeed, yesterday he was at pains to point out that that wasn't the

20 purpose behind my question. But secondly, it's really in relation to Your

21 Honour's observation, and that's this: There is certainly an argument --

22 it's quite a big topic and perhaps now's not the time to argue it, so to

23 speak. But there is an argument that it is hearsay, like any other bit of

24 hearsay. This Chamber allows witnesses to say what they've read in a

25 book, what they've heard from other people. What, I ask rhetorically, is

Page 24310

1 he material difference between that and a witness in this case, who

2 happens to be the accused, who says: I've read a witness statement, and

3 the witness statement says X, Y, and Z. But I'm not encouraging the

4 Chamber to hear argument on that at this stage.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, first of all, there are no other specific

6 rules on telling from what you read in a book, where there are specific

7 rules on the admission of statements. I mean, Rule 92 bis, of course,

8 gives a full set of -- I would say a set of guarantees, what could be in

9 such a statement to be admitted, what would not be -- whether that witness

10 would have been warned that giving a false statement would be contempt, et

11 cetera. I mean, there's a whole set of rules about that; there's no set

12 of rules about what one read in a book.

13 But I -- until now, I think our present witness said that this

14 could be confirmed by reading statements, et cetera, and we have not heard

15 any details about it. I also noted that you said that you were not

16 eliciting this kind of evidence from the witness at this moment. So for

17 the time being, if that would not change, then it's a mere statement that

18 in another -- the mere testimony that in another statement it is confirmed

19 or it is not confirmed without giving any opportunity as it stands now,

20 since that statement is not available for us to verify that. That, of

21 course, would -- might have some consequences, since there are clear ways

22 of introducing written statements. But as it stands, for now we just

23 proceed. And I well understood that it is -- this is not the moment that

24 you would like to fundamentally raise the issue, which I would expect you

25 to do if you would go any further on this route. Please proceed,

Page 24311

1 therefore.


3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik - I hope the learned Judge will permit me to say

4 this to you - it is apparent and obvious to everyone in this courtroom

5 that this is a subject that you feel strongly about. For my part, by all

6 means, give a robust answer to the question. But it's really your views

7 and your knowledge that the Chamber want to hear about, rather than what

8 other people either said to you or, alternatively, what you've read in

9 statements or, indeed, elsewhere. It's your knowledge of these matters

10 that I'm asking about and, I suspect, the Chamber would like to hear

11 about. Okay?

12 A. I'm sorry, but my knowledge is nil. I heard charges leveled

13 against me by Mr. Davidovic. The investigators have investigated it. Why

14 don't you produce the documents for us to see who's right? I heard it for

15 the first time from Mr. Davidovic, and I'm telling you it's not true.

16 That's why investigators went to see every one of those persons and to

17 take statements, according to Rule 92 --

18 Q. Right --

19 A. -- as according to procedure. It's not hearsay; it's first-hand

20 evidence.

21 Q. Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, once you are in a position again that

23 you can consult with counsel, of course you can discuss this with

24 Mr. Josse whether there would still be any chance to introduce any

25 additional 92 bis statements on the matter, so it's not excluded. But at

Page 24312

1 this moment reference to such statements, as Mr. Josse explained to you,

2 is not what he asks you about. And as a witness you should answer the

3 questions. You're -- temporarily you're in a different situation.

4 Of course, any further submissions of 92 bis statements,

5 Mr. Josse, will be considered if it comes to that, and then we'll hear

6 from the Prosecution whether there are any objections, whether there

7 should be cross-examination, et cetera. But this is not a moment in which

8 we could hear such matters. Please proceed.


10 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, I've got quite a lot more to ask you about

11 Mr. Davidovic, but we -- in many ways what I've just put to you was his

12 central allegation; namely, he had seen a document which you had signed,

13 authorising the removal of people. What I would like you to comment upon,

14 if you can - and let's not beat about the bush - what do you estimate his

15 motivation for lying in this way to be?

16 A. He wasn't lying. He had seen a document but a different kind of

17 document; however, he was angry with the SDS and the leadership and he

18 spoke about the wrong document. Let the Judges see the document and they

19 will see that he was -- he was deluded, that he was confused.

20 Q. Stop there. This is important. Tell the learned Judges which

21 document you had signed which you say he was, in fact, alluding to.

22 A. It's not I who signed, but there is one document signed by an MP

23 from Bijeljina, Milan Tesic, as the government's commissioner, whereby he

24 is authorised to conduct exchange of prisoners. And there is a stamp of

25 Milan Tesic. It says: Government of the Republika Srpska, et cetera, et

Page 24313

1 cetera. And he confused the two. Since Tesic was an MP, he thought it

2 comes -- it came from me. That's why he had said so resolutely that he

3 had seen the document. I don't understand why we can't produce this

4 document here so that everybody can see what it's all about.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, let's -- that's a procedural matter.

6 I would not -- you assume that it could not be shown.

7 If Mr. Krajisnik is in possession of a document which he thinks

8 Mr. Davidovic saw and he is misrepresenting, Mr. Josse, you know how to

9 introduce such a document.

10 MR. JOSSE: Absolutely.

11 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you a leading question, let's see if there's

12 any objection to it. So don't answer this until we hear from our learned

13 friends. Did you attempt -- did you personally attempt to put that

14 document, during the course of your cross-examination of Mr. Davidovic, to

15 him?

16 JUDGE ORIE: I hear no objection, so, Mr. Krajisnik, I would

17 answer the question.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. You can find the

19 transcript when I wanted to find that document to ask him whether it was

20 the document, and you can see that from the transcript of Mr. Davidovic's

21 evidence. However, there was a procedural problem, and I couldn't show it

22 to him.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, if you would be in a position to guide me

24 to the relevant page on the last portion of the --

25 MR. JOSSE: I -- I will be able to do that at the break.

Page 24314

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. We'll then give it a follow-up. Of

2 course, then the -- I take it from your last answer that that document

3 that -- that it's in your possession, Mr. Krajisnik; is that a correct

4 understanding? Or at least in the --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the Defence team should have

6 it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll see what Mr. Josse will do or will not do

8 with it.

9 Yes, please proceed.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time I wanted to produce a

11 lot of other things as well, but there were procedural problems. I wanted

12 to produce statements and everything.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


15 Q. Now, what do you say about Mr. Davidovic's motivation for saying

16 that you had had this conversation with Dragoljub Micic which I previously

17 asked you about and you said didn't take place?

18 A. I have met people who love me a lot, and I have met other people

19 yet who have never met me either but who seem to harbour a pathological

20 hatred against me. I don't know this Mr. Davidovic, but he seems to have

21 a terrible disaffection for all the leaders of the SDS. When he was

22 replaced, he could have gone to the federal SUP to complain, but I have

23 nothing to do with that man and I can't understand for the life of me what

24 he has against me. And when he says that he hasn't seen me do a single

25 positive thing, all right. That's his opinion.

Page 24315

1 As for Mr. Tesic, this MP from Bijeljina, that's an honourable

2 man, and I don't believe that he could be lying when he says that he had

3 never talked to him. I can't understand what his motivation could be,

4 apart from the fact that he is ideologically opposed to the SDS. I

5 wasn't, after all, even a leader of the SDS, for that matter.

6 Q. I'm next going to turn to his allegations against you and others

7 in relation to what I will call the appropriation of money. At -- in his

8 witness statement, P764, he alleged that you, your brother, Radovan

9 Karadzic, Radovan Karadzic's brother, Sarga Karadzic, were involved in an

10 import/export business dealing with Serbia and other countries, usually

11 Greece and Macedonia, which controlled all of the goods being brought into

12 the RS. Profits in these ventures were huge, mere monopoly on the import

13 of these products. And summarising, he said that you and your brother

14 issued licenses on the goods that were destined for both the Republika

15 Srpska and the Federation, and he was aware of this by implication because

16 businessmen frequently met in Bijeljina to complete the trade and

17 exchange.

18 A. Really, I don't see how I can answer such fabrications. I kindly

19 request the Trial Chamber to request from the authorities in Republika

20 Srpska, or maybe Bosnia and Herzegovina, to investigate whether there is

21 any truth in this. I had nothing to do with it. My brother even less.

22 Nobody had any cooperation with Greece or any foreign country, nor could I

23 have given any orders or instructions. It can only be pure gossip that he

24 overheard and believed, but there is not a grain of truth in any of this.

25 I hope the Trial Chamber can bind the authorities in Republika Srpska to

Page 24316

1 send the appropriate documents to prove what I am saying, or Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina or whatever. I never approved any of these deals. I was

3 never involved in any of these deals, never had any monopoly. When I have

4 to listen to all these things, I'm embarrassed by the sheer fact that it

5 is being said in public, although I know it's not true.

6 Q. Mr. Davidovic also alleged that you and Radovan Karadzic directly

7 profited from the looting in Bijeljina of homes owned by Muslims, that

8 that was facilitated - and I'm summarising here - through the offices of

9 Drago Vukic, the local secret policeman; Predrag Jezeric from the

10 Bijeljina SUP; and that money was effectively channeled via Vojkan

11 Djurkovic to you and Radovan Karadzic through your respective brothers.

12 What do you say about that?

13 A. All this is made up. There is a certified statement by Mr. Vojkan

14 Djurkovic --

15 Q. I'm going to stop you because Mr. Tieger is about to object.

16 Mr. Krajisnik, I - and I hope the Trial Chamber - can understand your

17 frustration. Please answer the question: Is what Mr. Davidovic is

18 alleging against you, is it true? That's what this Chamber want to know.

19 A. No, it's not true.

20 Q. Again, I've asked you once, I'll ask you again: What's his

21 motivation for saying these things; do you know?

22 A. I can say, by the same token, that during the war there were

23 ideological opponents of the former communist regime who passed off all

24 sorts of fabrications that were later subjected to financial expertise of

25 the Registry. There was a man, an investigator, who searched for my

Page 24317

1 alleged villas, apartments, real estate, et cetera. All this is

2 fabrication, and the only thing that can absolve this man was that he may

3 have heard it from somebody who was really ill-intentioned and

4 deliberately circulated misinformation. The only money transaction that I

5 can remember is giving 5.000 Deutschmarks to a young man who needed a leg

6 prosthesis. I am not a Defence witness of Mr. Karadzic, but I know about

7 this contribution for a -- for an orthopaedic prosthesis because

8 Mr. Karadzic was involved in it and there was a document about it.

9 Q. Listen to my next question carefully. Would you have any reason

10 to suppose that Vojkan Djurkovic would say to Mr. Davidovic - or, indeed,

11 apparently used to say it publicly - that he was taking money to Pale to

12 you and Mr. Krajisnik -- you and Mr. Karadzic, I beg your pardon.

13 A. Maybe he was trying to hide behind the broad back of some

14 authority, but I don't think that's the reason. I think that

15 Mr. Davidovic was simply not telling the truth, because this man, Vojkan

16 Djurkovic -- I can't say that he made a statement, but he denies, at any

17 rate, that he had ever said anything like it to Mr. Davidovic. I have as

18 much to do with all of that as anyone else in this courtroom.

19 Q. He alleged in -- that after the period of the indictment, in 1994,

20 that he learnt that a motor car had been confiscated, he said, by the

21 Bijeljina SUP from his son, that that car was given to Jovan Tintor, and

22 that lists of cars confiscated by the SUP was sent to you and

23 Mr. Karadzic, who then gave the vehicles to whoever you wanted, mainly

24 people close to you, presumably as some sort of gift, political or

25 otherwise. Any truth in that allegation?

Page 24318

1 A. None, none at all. I can only repeat what I said before: This

2 idea that I disposed of cars, or Mr. Karadzic, for that matter, that has

3 no truth in it. The MUP had commodity reserves. But I had actually

4 forgotten about this allegation. I remember all the rest he said, but I

5 had forgotten about this one.

6 Q. Other evidence has been heard by this Chamber of cars being

7 confiscated by different groups in Bijeljina, Zvornik, in 1992,

8 paramilitary groups perhaps, other groups. Did any of this get back to

9 you in Pale? We've seen your reference to some concerns to Mr. Mladic

10 about events of this sort in Vogosca. Can you help the Chamber on this

11 topic?

12 A. The thing with Mr. Mladic concerned new vehicles produced by the

13 German-Bosnian company TAS. Those were unregistered new vehicles stolen

14 by various people, whereas this case concerns cars, passenger vehicles,

15 intercepted by all sorts of groups, seized, re-registered, and resold. So

16 those are two different types of crime. As for the testimony of witnesses

17 we heard here, they spoke about this other -- the second type of offence,

18 when licence plates on a car are changed. I don't know who did it during

19 the war, but MUP intercepted such vehicles many times, excluded them from

20 traffic, and did I don't know what. I had information that that was going

21 on, but who did that, why, for what purpose, I don't know. Simply,

22 policemen would stop a vehicle in the street, check the papers, and

23 realise the car had been stolen. I knew about such cases.

24 MR. JOSSE: Yes --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I'm looking at the clock, but before we

Page 24319

1 take a break perhaps I inform you that the procedural issue on whether or

2 not to admit any documents or whether or not Mr. Krajisnik was allowed to

3 put certain documents to the witness, that was on the 27th of June, and

4 you'll find it -- well, on from page 15 thousand approximately 240. The

5 Chamber at that moment inquired into when these documents were received by

6 the Defence, which was already some two weeks before that date. That was

7 on the 12th of June, 2005, where the witness left The Hague on the 13th of

8 June and then returned to be further cross-examined on the 27th of June.

9 The documents were then put in the hands of Ms. Loukas. And even an

10 opportunity was given to Ms. Loukas to decide whether she would give it a

11 try, to cross-examine the witness on those documents although not

12 translated yet, although not under all circumstances we have disallowed

13 questions on documents which were not translated. I then take it that

14 these documents remained in the hands of Ms. Loukas at the time. That's

15 now almost one year ago, and it would certainly need some explanation on

16 how they could be introduced at this moment where no questions were put to

17 the witness at that time, and then even without a translation at this

18 moment. Also, if it would have been a very important matter, of course

19 one wonders why the matter had not been raised earlier, since the -- it

20 was perfectly clear at that time what the issue was and what Mr. Krajisnik

21 wanted to do is to confront the witness with - at least that's how I

22 understand it certainly now - with a document -- another document which

23 the witness Mr. Davidovic may have had in mind when he testified about a

24 document signed by Mr. Krajisnik.

25 Some questions were put to the witness in relation to -- or at

Page 24320

1 least with -- in the back of the mind, I take it, of Mr. Krajisnik. The

2 other document, for example, it was again asked to him who had signed that

3 document, where he, I think for the second time, answered it was

4 Mr. Krajisnik who had signed that document. One of the reasons why

5 Ms. Loukas I think refrained from further questions to the witness was

6 that she -- I think that's what she expressed, that it was -- the document

7 was not from within the indictment period. And the witness at that time

8 was asked when he saw that document. He said in 1993 without any further

9 details. Whether that was early 1993, that might have made a difference.

10 But that's just for your information at this moment what the procedural

11 issue was at the time and where you can find it.

12 We'll adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, you may proceed.

16 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I'm not desperately anxious to enter the

17 fray over this issue of this document. We have been unable to locate it

18 here. It is conceivable that it is in our other office, which is in

19 another part of The Hague. For my part, bearing in mind Your Honour's

20 comments, I'm not seeking to adduce it. But, Your Honour --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

22 MR. JOSSE: -- I am painfully aware that I am trying to represent

23 Mr. Krajisnik's cause here, and he thinks this document is important. He

24 perhaps needs some guidance as to what will happen if he brings it here.


Page 24321

1 Let me first ask, if it's mainly for the purpose of easily

2 retrieving the document, would the Prosecution oppose if Mr. Krajisnik

3 would give a copy of the documents he had in mind again now to Mr. Josse

4 if, perhaps, out of a thousand documents Mr. Josse is not able to find it

5 at this moment the documents which were given to Ms. Loukas at the time?

6 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour, we would have no objection to that.


8 MR. TIEGER: Obviously there may be a variety of other issues

9 arising in relation to --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand, but at least Mr. Josse is

11 handicapped at this moment because he doesn't even have access to the

12 document itself so he can't develop any thoughts about it.

13 Mr. Krajisnik, if you would have copies of those documents and if

14 you consider it important to provide them to counsel so that counsel can

15 consider whatever he wants to do with it, in full awareness of all the

16 procedural aspects related to it, the Chamber will allow you to give them

17 to Mr. Josse.

18 Mr. Josse, that --

19 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


22 Q. We're going to move on to another aspect of Mr. Davidovic's

23 evidence, and that relates to the Vance-Owen Plan and his assertion that

24 sometime in 1993, I think it was, he attended a meeting one evening on

25 Mount Jahorina at the Hotel Bistrica and that he was involved in some sort

Page 24322

1 of security function there and that he actually attended a meeting of the

2 SDS Deputy Club, where you said you didn't want that plan to be accepted.

3 What do you say about that?

4 A. The role, as described by Mr. Davidovic -- well, he came as a

5 forerunner -- he became before a number of officials; the late

6 Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Cosic, Mr. Miso Takic. So his role was to see what our

7 thoughts were with respect to the Vance Plan. I do not exclude the

8 possibility that he was at Pale and that he was there in the place where

9 we meet, in this Deputies' Club. He might have just been -- I exclude the

10 fact that he was in the hall. As a foreigner he wouldn't have been able

11 to come into the hall, but I'm sure he could have found ways and means of

12 hearing what was going on. You have listening devices and different

13 things of that kind. Now, whether he was there or not, I really don't

14 know, I can't say, but he could have been in the vicinity because it was a

15 mobile state.

16 Now, as far as the Vance-Owen Plan is concerned, I can say that I

17 was against the adoption of the Vance-Owen Plan. So he's right on that

18 score. And I can explain why I was opposed to the Vance-Owen Plan. But

19 in the most democratic way, everything else was put through. So you

20 can't blame me. I was just against the Vance-Owen Plan as an individual.

21 But as to the Deputy Club, he's not right that I exerted any influence on

22 the deputies themselves.

23 Q. I'm not going to ask you now about the stance you took in relation

24 to that plan; that's a topic that can perhaps be dealt with at a different

25 point in your evidence. He also - this is Mr. Davidovic - in the course

Page 24323

1 of his witness statement attributed, in part, to your door his removal

2 from some of his activities. He said that you and Mr. Karadzic were close

3 to Mauzer, that you and Mr. Karadzic complained to Mauzer about

4 Mr. Davidovic and wanted him removed.

5 MR. TIEGER: Page, please.

6 MR. JOSSE: Witness statement.

7 Q. Yes, you can answer the question, please, Mr. Krajisnik. The

8 question is: Any truth in that?

9 A. No. I never knew about any issue of that nature. And for

10 purposes of illustration, you have a decision by the Bijeljina Assembly

11 where he was replaced. You also have the records, the minutes, and you

12 can see that this was not on the agenda. Now, I never knew about the

13 Davidovic case, nor was I close to Mauzer at all. Quite the contrary.

14 Q. He asserted in the same statement that, in fact, he, Davidovic,

15 was discussed at an Assembly session in September of 1992. The issue of

16 his removal was discussed there. Any recollection of that?

17 A. I have looked through all the Assemblies -- Assembly meetings.

18 Perhaps Mr. Micic might have mentioned him. You have the minutes, you can

19 look for yourselves. I did not come across anything like that, and even

20 if he had mentioned him, that would have referred to some local problem,

21 it wouldn't be something that was discussed. But in the stenogram, no

22 mention is made in the stenographic notes that anybody mentioned

23 Mr. Davidovic at that Assembly meeting. I don't remember. We didn't

24 discuss it. Perhaps he heard from somebody or somebody told him that this

25 was discussed in the Assembly, but I don't remember that we discussed it,

Page 24324

1 nor do we have it in any of the minutes, because I checked, I looked

2 through them, to see.

3 Q. Finally, perhaps I should ask you this: Were you aware of his

4 activities in suppressing and rounding up the White Eagles?

5 A. You mean for Zvornik?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. The information that I received at the time was this: That the

8 special MUP unit had resolved the problem, the MUP of Republika Srpska.

9 No other information reached me. And from the papers later on, I saw that

10 he took part. But at the time, I didn't know about any of this.

11 Q. What does "later on" mean?

12 A. I mean here, when I came here, and when we discussed this in

13 court. But before that I'd never heard of Davidovic having taken part

14 anywhere. It wasn't something I noticed. It wasn't something that stuck

15 in my mind or had any reason to do so.

16 Q. And let's be clear. I know your evidence began on this topic, but

17 let's go back to it. Until you were arrested, were awe aware of Milorad

18 Davidovic at all?

19 A. No, never. And when his name was put forward as a witness, I just

20 couldn't understand who this was about, because there's a man called

21 Davidovic from Montenegro, so I thought maybe that would be the person. I

22 didn't know what witness they meant.

23 MR. TIEGER: Just very quickly. Can I have the particular page

24 reference to the suppressing and rounding up of White Eagles?

25 MR. JOSSE: That's a general proposition that comes from

Page 24325

1 Davidovic's evidence, which is supported by KRAJ 682.

2 MR. TIEGER: My recollection was that there was discussion about

3 Yellow Wasps, but I don't have a specific recollection about White Eagles.

4 MR. JOSSE: Sorry, sorry, I'm sure that's right. Thank you very

5 much.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The two colours are close. The animals are

7 not.


9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, that's my fault. Does that change your answer at

10 all? It was the Yellow Wasps Mr. Davidovic was involved in, so to speak,

11 in suppressing and rounding up, and that 682 dealt with, not the White

12 Eagles. Does it change your answer at all?

13 A. I understood you to mean the Yellow Wasps when I answered, so that

14 would be it. And let me just add that I just heard about Zuca, not the

15 Yellow Wasps. It was only here that I mentioned -- I heard mentioned the

16 term the Yellow Wasps. It was Zuca at the time who was the leader of all

17 of these paramilitary formations, and he was the head of the yellow wasps.

18 THE INTERPRETER: "Zuca" meaning "yellow," interpreter's note.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But, yes, you're quite right. My

20 answer is the same, the same answer that I gave a moment ago.

21 MR. JOSSE: I'm grateful to Mr. Tieger.

22 Could we move into private session, please?

23 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted).

Page 24326











11 Pages 24326-24338 redacted. Private session.















Page 24339

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

19 Mr. Krajisnik, I repeat my question to you, which is where you

20 said the only money transaction that you could remember is about the 5.000

21 Deutschmarks for the young handicapped man. What did you mean by "only"?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the war all sorts of

23 humanitarian aid came in, and it was in the -- within the province of

24 other people. A man from Australia brought 5.000 Deutschmark - I have no

25 idea why - gave them to me, and I put them in the safe. And I still have

Page 24340

1 receipts to prove how that money was spent. I was trying to say that

2 that's the only money I received during the war, those 5.000 Deutschmark,

3 speaking of money, and it was for humanitarian purposes. I know that man,

4 he was a native of Pale. It wasn't only humanitarian aid; other people

5 dealt with humanitarian aid and they were in charge of distributing it,

6 but I never received any amount apart from that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Major financial transactions, would they continue --

8 well, let's say, in 1992 or was the situation such that no major financial

9 transactions would be done by you privately? I mean, when I'm talking

10 about major, that's -- well, let's say above 10.000 euros or so.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll give you an example, Your

12 Honour. For instance, two men came from the United States, bringing maybe

13 20, 30.000 dollars as aid. It was filmed by television. They brought

14 this aid officially, and this was a different thing. This man just came

15 to see me, I put it in the safe. Other people came to give money, too,

16 but minor amounts. People would put that in the safe because they would

17 initially bring the money to somebody who turns out to be absent, and then

18 the money would be put in the safe. I didn't receive any other

19 humanitarian aid on behalf of Republika Srpska without forwarding it, let

20 alone the amounts that this witness mentioned.

21 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I understand that Mr. Krajisnik said the

22 Assembly safe.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The Assembly safe.

24 That's what you said, Mr. Krajisnik? When you were talking about

25 the safe, it was the Assembly safe?

Page 24341

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the National Assembly of

2 Republika Srpska, its treasury, and that's where the money was paid out

3 from. A little girl had leukemia and needed prosthesis. I don't remember

4 anymore, but I have an itemised receipt how the money was spent. It is

5 still in safekeeping over there.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's of course -- or I specifically asked about

7 private money, but you are referring to other transactions. Any private

8 transactions of major importance during 1992? I mean buying or investing

9 or -- I mean I'm talking about operations of a larger scale.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To avoid all misunderstanding, Your

11 Honour, I don't remember whether it was at the beginning of the war or

12 later, I bought some land in Arandjelovac. That was a private transaction

13 with my private funds. I don't remember anything else. But as for the

14 subject of that discussion concerning import and business deals,

15 absolutely out of the question. I had nothing to do with that and neither

16 my brother or I were ever involved in that, apart from that land I bought.

17 I bought part of it and didn't buy another part of it. It was paid for

18 by my private money, if that's what was referred to. I don't know.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just asking you: Do you remember what amount was

20 involved, approximately?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether it was 20 or

22 30.000 or maybe 15.000 Deutschmark. It was very cheap land.

23 Mr. Jovanovic found that transaction. Maybe it was in the beginning of

24 April. I don't know when I made that purchase, but it was before the war.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No transactions of a similar size in 1992; investing,

Page 24342

1 buying, whatever, so outside of the daily household expenditures on cars,

2 gasoline, food?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never. I had no investments, nor

4 did I receive any money, even on account of humanitarian aid, nor did I

5 invest anything. I don't remember. I found some money from humanitarian

6 aid towards the end of the war and I bought a weekend cottage for my

7 parents, but in 1992, nothing, nothing, nothing.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

9 Mr. Krajisnik -- Mr. Krajisnik, you exactly guessed what I had in

10 mind to say to you. I see that there's not even a need to remind you that

11 you should speak to one about the testimony already given or still about

12 to be given, so I'll not remind you about it because you know.

13 We'll adjourn until tomorrow, same courtroom, 9.00.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day of

16 May, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.