Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24607

1 Wednesday, 24 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

9 Mr. Krajisnik, not to your surprise, but I'll remind you that

10 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the

11 beginning of your testimony. And, Mr. Krajisnik, I did understand that

12 you had an opportunity to watch the DVD, at least the video, and that it

13 would cause you to make some additional comment or to add to answers

14 you've given before.

15 Mr. Stewart, I may take it that this is the right moment to --

16 MR. STEWART: Absolutely, Your Honour, yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, please tell us what we should know

18 about it.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I got this DVD. In addition to this

20 interview, there's another interview there as well, and I actually wrote

21 down where the beginning is and where the end is and where the

22 interruption is in this interview. Actually, this interview consists of

23 two different parts. I can tell you exactly what it is. The beginning is

24 at 37 minutes, 50 seconds, and the end, 54.09 -- oh, sorry, sorry. 5

25 minutes, 46 seconds. And 8 minutes, 23 seconds, that's the end. The

Page 24608

1 interruption is 7 minutes, 21 seconds, and I know exactly where it is.

2 It's where the second part of the more extensive interview starts. It can

3 be seen easily. I viewed it last night.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the parties, is there more on the DVD

5 than there is in evidence? If so, parties should consider whether ...

6 [Defence counsel confer]

7 MR. STEWART: Yes, the disk is -- contains one video clip, but

8 it's a compilation of a number of different interviews, as we understand

9 it. So it's one video file, as we understand it, but it does contain a

10 number of different interviews.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, of course what I'd like to know is

12 whether there's anything on it that is not evidence. If everything is in

13 evidence, then it seems that the relevant point is whether there is a cut

14 somewhere in the middle which could -- might explain what Mr. Krajisnik

15 says: I said more but that's not recorded, it's not broadcasted, at least

16 it's not on this video.

17 Another matter is whether portions of what now seems to be a

18 compilation of -- of interview or interviews, whether portions are not in

19 evidence and whether the parties would consider it of such relevance that

20 they would like to introduce that into evidence.

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the answer is I can't remember. It's

22 simply that this was played an awfully long time ago.


24 MR. STEWART: I can't remember, although P70.A.1, which, on the

25 list of exhibits, is described as the transcript of P70 is a very short

Page 24609

1 item, which suggests that there is a lot of stuff that hasn't been put in

2 evidence. But the Prosecution probably know better than us, Your Honour,

3 because it was their disk in the first place.

4 MR. TIEGER: It may have been our disk in the first place, but I'm

5 not sure what is on this particular disk. However --

6 JUDGE ORIE: The parties are invited to look into the questions

7 that I just raised and to consider that if there is anything on this disk

8 that is not evidence - there is a fair chance there isn't - whether both

9 the fact that there is an interruption somewhere and that it resumes

10 somewhere else, whether that fact and the remainder which is not in

11 evidence should be brought to the attention of the Chamber. Please

12 consider it. And Mr. Stewart is -- if, on this specific point, you would

13 now -- you would have to consult with Mr. Krajisnik. I expect that a

14 favourable decision would be given if you would apply for it.

15 At this moment you first have to look at it and then we'll further

16 see what decisions are to be taken or what further evidence we'll see and

17 hear.

18 Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.

19 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. We can probably get Mr.

20 Sladojevic to look at it straight away, Your Honour, if it is possible --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Fine.

22 MR. STEWART: -- I just need it handed back, Your Honour. Mr.

23 Krajisnik has got it.

24 JUDGE ORIE: It's the last copy -- it's the one and only copy?

25 MR. STEWART: Well, I thought we needed it.

Page 24610

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MR. STEWART: Excuse me.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you allow me, I can help you, Mr.

4 President. I viewed this, and we can resolve the problem very

5 expeditiously.

6 MR. STEWART: We've got it on the hard drive, Your Honour, it

7 seems, so we're all right.


9 Well, Mr. Krajisnik, I invited the parties to look at it. If they

10 say it is of no importance whatsoever and if you would say: I would like

11 to put an additional question to myself, that is to ask about that portion

12 of the video, then we'll hear from that.

13 Mr. Stewart.

14 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examination by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]

18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I want to ask you whether you know of anything of a

19 number of matters said to have involved Crisis Staffs. Do you, yourself,

20 know anything about a Crisis Staff decision to cut off the water supply in

21 the summer of 1992 to the city of Sarajevo?

22 A. No. I was not aware of any such decision by the Crisis Staff, or

23 others, for that matter.

24 Q. Do you know anything of any Crisis Staff in Bosnia and Herzegovina

25 evacuating the entire Serbian population in order to prepare for an armed

Page 24611

1 attack?

2 A. Everything I heard here before this Court are things that I never

3 knew about, the evacuation of the population that the Crisis Staff

4 participated in. And I do not recall a single case that I heard of later,

5 that the Crisis Staff did something like that. If there is a document of

6 this nature, I would be happy to comment on it. But I really do not

7 remember any such decision or any such case.

8 Q. Did you, during 19 --

9 A. Excluding Pale, though, I've already said that, lest there be any

10 misunderstanding.

11 Q. During 1992 - and I'm asking you about what you knew during that

12 year - did you have any knowledge of any Crisis Staff establishing any

13 detention centre?

14 A. Well, all documents show that we didn't know and that I didn't

15 know, except for what was going on around Sarajevo and except for the

16 decisions that we passed in terms of having prisons established as state

17 institutions. As for camps, I found that quite foreign; I mean these

18 prisons outside the law that are referred to here. I'm talking about the

19 period up to August, when the government report came in and when an

20 initiative was taken to have them disbanded. Until then, I knew nothing

21 of it, and there are even MUP reports that they didn't know about it. But

22 I don't want you to think that it goes for the whole year.

23 Q. During 1992, did you have any knowledge of Crisis Staffs anywhere

24 in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serb Crisis Staffs, ordering the arrest of

25 groups of people?

Page 24612

1 A. I did not know of any such thing, but I know that the Crisis

2 Staffs were the local authority, that they existed in municipalities.

3 That they did this, that I did not know.

4 Q. Your Honours, Mr. Sladojevic suggests that in the last answer,

5 which it shows on the transcript, the reference "there are even MUP

6 reports," Mr. Sladojevic suggests that that -- that might have been more

7 specifically qualified by Mr. Krajisnik, the reference to the MUP.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, where you said "and there are even MUP

9 reports that they didn't know about it," it's suggested that you said

10 something more. Could you tell us what, in addition to what I just read,

11 you said.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In mid-August -- or was it in July?

13 The MUP set up some commissions, and they went to tour the camps. They

14 received reports, and once these reports came in, it became obvious that

15 the MUP had not known about these camps earlier on. We discussed it then,

16 and it was after that that the camps were disbanded. My point was that up

17 until then, even the MUP did not know anything about this, which can be

18 seen from the documents about the camps.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

20 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, did you during 1992 have any knowledge of Crisis

22 Staffs authorising transfer of prisoners in and out of detention centres?

23 A. Detention centres and what was the other word? I didn't

24 understand it. No, I knew that there were commissions for the exchange of

25 prisoners.

Page 24613

1 As for the role of Crisis Staffs, I didn't know about that. I

2 didn't know that they had anything to do with the prisoners. As far as I

3 can remember, the commissions were in different corps. Every corps had

4 its own commission for the exchange of prisoners, and then there was this

5 central commission. At that time I didn't know of it, but later on I

6 heard about that, that is to say that I found out later in connection with

7 the government.

8 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, did you in 1991 or 1992 have any personal knowledge

9 of Crisis Staffs ordering non-Serbs to be removed from municipal

10 positions?

11 A. No, I did not know about that. When I'm talking about Crisis

12 Staffs, I'm saying that I did not know about that, and it would be very

13 important to look at a period or, rather, the period up until August and

14 the period after August, if we are talking about 1992. But as for all of

15 1992, well, first and foremost, they did not exist later. But I was not

16 aware of their activities of this kind.

17 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps you would explain to the Trial Chamber --

18 you've a couple of times today given answers which indicate a change in

19 your knowledge around August 1992 of a number of matters. Could you

20 perhaps make it clear to the Trial Chamber what change there was in August

21 1992, in that respect.

22 A. Thank you so much for this question. All the time, up until the

23 end of July or the beginning of August, the government tried to obtain

24 information as to what was going on on the ground in order to have

25 information. Rumours were coming in, and in respect of that, they formed

Page 24614

1 three commissions; one for Herzegovina, as far as I know; one for Krajina;

2 one for Semberija.

3 And some time in the month of August, they got these reports. The

4 reports were not exactly terrible, but certain irregularities were

5 established. There was a debate in the government and in the Presidency

6 in connection with these reports. I attended as a guest, and a resolute

7 order was issued then to have all the irregularities redressed to see who

8 the culprits are and to have appropriate measures taken. That can be seen

9 from all the records. I think this was the 6th of August, or something

10 like that, but until then the Presidency did not know about this, but I in

11 particular did not have any knowledge of any such thing.

12 I would like to remind you that on the 10th of August, the

13 Assembly was held in Banja Luka and an MP put a question concerning

14 prisoners. It was not on the agenda then, so it would be very important

15 for me to clarify why this was not put on the agenda then, because this

16 was actually held against the president of the Assembly then. Later on

17 prisons were disbanded and better conditions were created when

18 better-quality information was obtained. That is why I am saying that it

19 is important to distinguish between these different periods of time.

20 What I possibly did know had to do with the area around Sarajevo,

21 but as for these problematic prisons that were before this court, Sratke

22 [phoen], whatever, I didn't know anything about this. Kula is the only

23 legal prison that I knew of, that I thought this was something normal. I

24 did not think that there was anything irregular going on there, and after

25 all, this was not within the scope of my authority, but it was the

Page 24615

1 government and the appropriate ministries that were supposed to deal with

2 that.

3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, were you aware in 1991 or 1992 of Crisis Staffs

4 ordering the removal of non-Serbs from private employment positions?

5 A. I was not aware of that, although there were very few private

6 companies, but I didn't know about this.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like you to have, please, an exhibit which

8 is P529, binder 5, tab 221.

9 Now, this is a report on the work of the Municipal Assembly and

10 War Presidency from Bosanska Krupa covering a period, it says, of the 1st

11 of January, 1992, to 20th of April, 1993, and dated April 1993.

12 First of all, Mr. Krajisnik, did you at any time in 1991, first of

13 all, ever visit Bosanska Krupa?

14 A. I did not visit Bosanska Krupa. As a matter of fact, I never

15 visited Bosanska Krupa.

16 Q. Well, that answered my next question. Mr. Krajisnik, it's a

17 relatively long report, but one thing it does record, and that's on -- you

18 needn't worry too much, Mr. Krajisnik, about the specific passages unless

19 I ask you to. But on the English, at page 4 at the end of the long first

20 paragraph, first full paragraph, it says: "The Crisis Staff of the

21 Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa began its work at the beginning of

22 January 1992 as the situation was becoming increasingly complex."

23 It's a fairly simple sentence, Mr. Krajisnik, so don't worry too

24 much about finding the text. Were you aware in January 1992 that a Crisis

25 Staff had been established in Bosanska Krupa?

Page 24616

1 A. I was not aware of that. I was supposed to go to Bosanska Krupa.

2 I was invited to the opening of a church, but Mrs. Plavsic went. And I

3 know that I did not hear of information of this kind from her either.

4 Q. Did you, between - let's try and be specific - between January

5 1992 and the beginning of the war, hear anything about what was happening

6 in Bosanska Krupa?

7 A. I heard of two cases that occurred in that area. I don't know

8 when this was. One was the arrest of Milan Martic in Otoka. I think that

9 the municipality is Bosanska Krupa. And the other case was an excessive

10 incident, namely that the monument to Branko Copic, the bust of Branko

11 Copic, was ruined and there was this small conflict between the Serbs and

12 Muslims in Bosanska Krupa. I knew that indirectly, if I can put it that

13 way. And perhaps it was even a telephone conversation that I had with

14 someone, but now I probably cannot remember. This was a political problem

15 that was supposed to be resolved between the Serb and the Muslim side, and

16 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina took part in solving this problem as

17 well.

18 Q. Now, there's a paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik, that begins -- it's on

19 page 5 of the English. It begins: "The War Presidency made an assessment

20 of the situation..."

21 Excuse me.

22 [Defence counsel confer]


24 Q. I'll start reading it, Mr. Krajisnik, and we'll see it. It's on

25 page 4, it's the top paragraph on page 4. Do you see: "The War

Page 24617

1 Presidency made an assessment of the situation..."?

2 A. Yes, I see it.

3 Q. "The War Presidency made an assessment of the situation," and the

4 time period being talked about here, apparently from the document, is

5 certainly at the earliest April of 1992, "and took the only feasible and

6 appropriate decision at the time regarding the Muslim population that

7 remained in enclaves in the Serbian territory on the right bank of the

8 Una. First came the decision on the surrender of arms in all Muslim areas

9 in order to free some of the units of the Serbian Territorial Defence

10 which were maintaining a blockade of Muslim villages. This decision was

11 very poorly implemented. No agreement was reached in the Ostruznica and

12 Badic area. The weak response or total disregard of Muslims to the call

13 for surrender of arms and Alija's threat that Krupa must become green,

14 whatever the cost, forced the War Presidency of the Serbian municipality

15 to offer Muslims two options. They could organise themselves and, with

16 our guarantees and full protection, move out to the destination of their

17 transfer, or this would be done by military means. All Muslim villages in

18 the central regions accepted the temporary transfer, provided they could

19 take along all their movable property."

20 Mr. Krajisnik, first of all, there's a reference to -- there to

21 Alija's threat that Krupa must become green, whatever the cost, and we

22 know by now "what must become green" means, "green" for Muslim. First of

23 all, do you know or did you know in 1992 anything at all about a threat by

24 Mr. Izetbegovic - we take it it's him - that Krupa must become green?

25 A. I did not know that he made such a statement.

Page 24618

1 Q. Were you aware in 1992 of any similar types of threat or statement

2 by Mr. Izetbegovic in relation to any municipalities?

3 A. In 1990 there was an immoderate remark by Mr. Izetbegovic about

4 that area; but in 1991 I don't recall him making any statements about this

5 area.

6 Q. The immoderate remark in 1990, first of all, in what circumstances

7 was it made? Was it a -- on a media or was it in a meeting or where?

8 A. At an election rally in Velika Kladusa, which was held before the

9 elections, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic said that the Muslims would defend Bosnia

10 with weapons. He noted this in his memoirs, in his book. This was

11 immoderate because 1990 was the beginning; the situation was bad. The

12 reason it was immoderate was that this area was raw. It was a highly

13 sensitive area, because in World War II there had been a terrible conflict

14 there and genocide had been perpetrated against the Serbs. I learned what

15 the reference to the dead meant later on. Mr. Vjestica gave an interview

16 to the Office of the Prosecutor in which he explained that before

17 World War II the proportion of Serbs --

18 MR. TIEGER: That's okay. I'll ...

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that I was to say

20 everything I knew; that's why I was explaining this. He said that the

21 ratio of Serbs to Muslims was 75 per cent Muslims, 25 per cent Serbs,

22 whereas now it was the other way around. And he also explained what is

23 stated here because he was asked this by the Prosecution. He said that he

24 had two school friends who were Muslims who came to see him and asked him

25 for his assistance in moving out of the area. That's what I knew about

Page 24619

1 all this.

2 At the time I knew only what he said at the Assembly on the 12th

3 of May, and I cannot explain how I understood his speech. And it

4 corresponds to what he said to the Office of the Prosecutor. He is a

5 robust man, he's rather radical, but he's also a very warm and gentle

6 person; however, his speeches were quite belligerent. I'm referring to

7 Miroslav Vjestica, the deputy from Krupa. The Office of the Prosecutor

8 gave this interview to my Defence and my Defence showed it to me.


10 Q. Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, just moving on to the point here that's in

11 the text. It refers to the Muslims in Bosanska Krupa having been given

12 the two options to organise themselves and move out or it would be done by

13 military means. First of all, were you aware of any such option being

14 given to Muslims in Bosanska Krupa?

15 A. No, I was not aware of it at the time.

16 Q. Yes. In 1992 were you aware of any such option or a similar

17 option being given by Serbs to Muslims in any other municipality?

18 A. In 1992, on the 12th of May, I heard from Mr. Vjestica at the

19 Assembly that all the Muslims had left their areas. And I even understood

20 that they were "assisted" to leave and that their departure was not

21 completely voluntary. Later on he explained it differently, but I did not

22 hear anything similar from anybody else. I only heard about it at the

23 Assembly, and I can explain my understanding of it at the time. I'm

24 referring to the 12th of May.

25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I inquire why assisted -- perhaps

Page 24620

1 I missed something -- why "assisted" appears in inverted commas at line 18

2 of the transcript.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's because the translator said that that is what

4 Mr. Krajisnik said.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it.

6 MR. STEWART: I just want to be clear --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik said assisted between -- at least

8 that's how it was translated, and that's what I heard in English and that

9 is what --

10 MR. STEWART: That's fine, Your Honour, that answers my question.

11 I just noticed and wanted to be clear. Just an inquiry, Your Honour, to

12 be dealt with. Thank you.



15 Q. The -- Mr. Krajisnik, the -- you said that their departure was not

16 completely voluntary. What -- what did you understand as -- as being --

17 well, if you like, the -- what it was that made their departure not

18 completely voluntary?

19 A. In that area, as I understood him to say, the Serbs all went to

20 Serb territory and the Muslims all went to their own territory. And

21 nobody did this because they wanted to.

22 Mr. Abdic said, and it's in one of his newspaper interviews, that

23 everyone should return to his own home because this was artificial.

24 That's why I said "assisted." It wasn't because people really wanted

25 that, but he was not successful because they realised it wasn't realistic

Page 24621

1 at that point in time. But everybody was talking about everybody

2 returning to their own homes, and that's what the meeting between

3 Mr. Abdic, Mr. Vjestica, and the others was about.

4 Q. Did you -- no. Just leaving Bosanska Krupa as a specific

5 municipality for the moment. In 1992, did you know anything about any

6 Crisis Staff establishing anything going under the label of a travel

7 agency or an exchange agency which had anything to do with the movements

8 of Muslims out of municipalities?

9 A. At one point in time - and this was in the second half of 1992 - I

10 learned that there was an agency, either in Banja Luka or in Bijeljina.

11 This was not an agency run by the Crisis Staff; it was a privately owned

12 agency.

13 After the decision or announcement, and as I mentioned it was the

14 International Red Cross who also said that, people could leave certain

15 areas where there was a threat. There were many complaints about the work

16 of that agency, and I think that later on it was closed down because

17 people were working in their own personal interest. And I think that the

18 deputies objected to this at a session of the Assembly, but this happened

19 later, perhaps in the second half of 1992.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I ask one additional question?

21 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, when you said they were "assisted,"

23 what do you mean by that? Do I have to understand that to be that the

24 Serbs were more or less pressured to go to the Serb area and, if need be,

25 for that purpose, leave the places where they had lived until that moment

Page 24622

1 and, similarly, the Muslims? Or -- how do I have to understand the

2 assistance?

3 Mr. --

4 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, the transcript says: Do I have

5 to understand that to be that the Serbs were more or less pressured to go

6 to the Serb area and not --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

8 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And similarly the Muslims. I was talking about all

10 inhabitants.

11 MR. TIEGER: My apologies.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His Honour is a clever man and he

13 had put a very good question. Because there was reciprocity. Your

14 Honour, I understand all these questions. You see, when Mr. Vjestica was

15 explaining things, he was introducing a little bit his radical views and

16 his boasting. He said that he had been asked by his neighbours to go

17 over, but he was trying to make himself sound important. He had helped

18 them, in his view. But I didn't think that this was voluntary. People

19 were not just fleeing the war, but the Serbs "helped them." They didn't

20 really help them, but people wouldn't have left if there hadn't been a war

21 and if they hadn't been afraid. That's how I understood it and that's why

22 I said "assisted."

23 Your Honour was right, but I was speaking about Mr. Vjestica when

24 I said this and what my impression was of his statements.

25 JUDGE ORIE: To say it in simple words: They had no other choice

Page 24623

1 than to leave?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. You see, it was actually

3 established later that they asked to leave. To what extent this was

4 voluntary and to what extent there was objective fear, that's another

5 question. But nobody would have left the area had there not been a war

6 and were they not afraid. Whether they were intentionally intimidated,

7 that's a different matter, but those who "assisted," these people in

8 leaving were not sad because these people were leaving.

9 So the impression one gets is that this was not all proper. One

10 cannot amnesty it; that's why there was a meeting with Mr. Abdic about all

11 this. They were discussing what to do with the Serbs and what to do with

12 the Muslims. So that -- I tried to explain what my impression of all this

13 was.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 MR. STEWART: Excuse me one moment, Your Honour, there's something

17 on the transcript.

18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, was your -- when you were hearing about these

19 matters from Mr. Vjestica, was it your understanding that Serbs in his

20 municipality had been behaving in some way improperly towards Muslims?

21 A. Excuse me. I knew every deputy as well as I know myself, and when

22 one of them spoke, I knew whether he was bragging or telling the truth.

23 And I knew that what Mr. Vjestica was saying had to be taken with a big

24 pinch of salt. That was my impression. But if he hadn't explained it as

25 he had to the Prosecution, it would have appeared as if he had expelled

Page 24624

1 the Muslims. But he wasn't speaking the whole truth. He didn't say that

2 he had this meeting with Abdic.

3 When we establish the complete picture, as we are now able to do,

4 we can see that there were individual incidents of expulsion, but it

5 wasn't really expulsion. And I understood that -- well, there was a

6 wartime atmosphere, and he was boasting. And not everyone took what he

7 said to be a fact, because a huge number of Serbs was there on the other

8 side, so this problem was simply cancelled out. We didn't know what to do

9 with the Serbs from the Cazin area. But now the whole truth has come to

10 light. All the pieces of the jig-saw puzzle have come together, but this

11 is only 12 years later. My impression at the time was that he wasn't

12 telling the full truth and that he was simply bragging a little bit,

13 boasting.

14 Q. When you had made whatever adjustment you would make for the sort

15 of person Mr. Vjestica was and whether he was likely to be bragging and so

16 on, were you then left with any understanding that Serbs in his

17 municipality had been behaving in some way improperly towards Muslims?

18 A. No, I didn't see it that way. That wasn't my understanding,

19 because the way he presented it was the Serbs have come here, the Muslims

20 have gone there. These people can't go back there, and those people can't

21 come back here. And this was a vocabulary appropriate to war. He did not

22 say: We expelled all the Muslims and the Serbs have remained where they

23 were. He was speaking about a situation that existed at the time. The

24 river Una is a border, we are happy that way, there are no Serbs over

25 there, there are no Muslims over here, and that's a good thing. That's

Page 24625

1 what was in his mind.

2 I would have to have a discussion with him now and ask him what he

3 meant at the time, but that would take us away from our main topic. I

4 knew there was a meeting with Mr. Abdic and him, but we simply did not

5 interfere in these local affairs. We discussed this at the Assembly

6 session because we didn't believe it was just one-sided, that it was just

7 the Serbs who had expelled someone. Far fewer Muslims went over than the

8 number of Serbs who were expelled.

9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm -- I'd like to ask you a couple of questions to

10 get some, if you like, clear guidelines here.

11 You have mentioned, I think already in your evidence, there is a

12 situation, isn't there, where because there's a war on and because people

13 are afraid, they may have left where they lived with nobody telling them

14 to but the circumstances leading them, through fear, to go somewhere else.

15 You -- you understand, and if I've understood well your previous evidence,

16 you say that that did happen in Bosnia in 1992. Is that correct?

17 A. I am talking about the Krupa area where Mr. Abdic had a meeting

18 with both sides. It was established that the Serbs had fled from one area

19 and the Muslims had fled from another area. They wanted to return

20 everybody to their own homes. But they said there's a war on now, so it's

21 not realistic to do it at present. They all committed themselves to do

22 this once the war was over. And at the local level they even discussed an

23 exchange of the civilian population. We didn't know that at the time.

24 They said: Let all our people go, we will let all your people go, and

25 that way people will be safe. This is in the minutes of the Presidency of

Page 24626

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina when Mr. Sefer Halilovic informed them of this.

2 The aim was to save people because everybody wanted to go to the

3 other side, or to their own side. I mean "their own" under quotation

4 marks. That side where they were in the majority. I think it was on the

5 20th of June that this session of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina

6 was held where this was discussed. Afterwards there was no more

7 discussion of it.

8 There's -- the same thing is mentioned in Halilovic's book, but

9 it's also in the minutes of the Presidency meeting of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina. So there are descriptions as to how these events took place.

11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, was it your view in mid-1992 that for, let us say,

12 a Muslim to be forced at gunpoint to leave where he or she lived and go to

13 another municipality, forced by a Serb, was wrong, unlawful, not

14 acceptable?

15 A. The best way for me to explain it is if I tell you what I know.

16 In my view, every Serb was happy if he could leave a Muslim area

17 and cross over to Serb territory. Because I had this impression, I also

18 understood that the Muslims would be happy if they went over to Muslim

19 territory. I didn't know what the Muslims wanted, but I did know what the

20 Serbs wanted. Many Serbs went into Serb Sarajevo. The number of

21 inhabitants there tripled. People were terrified. They were fleeing the

22 war. Whether anybody "assisted" them, that's a different issue, but it

23 was their desire - I'm speaking about the Serbs now - to reach the free

24 territory where they would be in the majority and, therefore, I assume

25 there would be a similar sentiment on the other side. Nobody wanted to

Page 24627

1 remain a minority and wonder whether some criminal gang was going to come

2 along and kill them. That's why I thought the Muslims wanted this,

3 because I knew what was happening among the Serbs.

4 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, it's you answering the questions and I'm always

5 subject to the guidance of the Trial Chamber. I -- if I may, I'd slightly

6 encourage you not to keep putting words in inverted commas in your

7 answers, which I suggest is not helping to make things clearer.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if Mr. Krajisnik thinks that this clarifies the

9 language that he uses, he's free to do so, Mr. Stewart.

10 MR. STEWART: I'm in Your Honour's hands. I only had in mind that

11 the last time he -- or one of the times he did it, it gave rise to a

12 question from Your Honour to try to clarify it. And now he's used it

13 again. It really immediately provokes a need for a question to clarify.

14 That's all I had in mind, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I had in mind that Mr. Krajisnik, when he earlier

16 explained what he meant while expressing himself in this way, that we

17 should understand - but please correct me when I'm wrong, Mr. Krajisnik -

18 that we should now understand it in a similar way as you explained it

19 before. No. No correction, so therefore --

20 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour --

21 JUDGE ORIE: I have one additional question.

22 Mr. Krajisnik, one thing that strikes me is that you are

23 consistently making a comparison to say: Well, it was not one-sided. I

24 take it that for the Muslims it was the same for the Serbs. Nevertheless,

25 when you talked about what you discussed at the Assembly session and when

Page 24628

1 you said you didn't believe that it was one-sided, you said that it was

2 just the Serbs who had expelled someone. And then you added: "Far fewer

3 Muslims went over than the number of Serbs who were expelled."

4 You're using language there which suggests that Serbs were

5 expelled and that Muslims went over, or did you include in "going over"

6 that they were under a similar pressure as the Serbs, of whom you said

7 they were expelled?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was probably speaking fast, so the

9 interpretation was not good enough.

10 Your Honour, I am speaking a session of the Presidency of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina where Mr. Sefer Halilovic provided information to the

12 effect that in the Cazinska Krajina area where Bosanska Krupa is located,

13 on the local level the Serbs and the Muslims were negotiating among

14 themselves about an exchange of the civilian population. And at that

15 session, an exchange of Serbs from Zenica and Banja Luka was mentioned --

16 I'm adding this now. Mr. Halilovic commented on this. It was then that

17 we spoke about it; afterwards, it never came up again at a Presidency

18 session.

19 The second part of my reply, when I was drawing a parallel, it

20 wasn't a parallel between expulsions of Serbs and Muslims in order to

21 amnesty the Serbian side for expelling the Muslims, if it did that indeed,

22 but I said what my understanding was of the reason why the Muslims were

23 leaving their homes. I said that I had information about why the Serbs

24 were leaving Muslim areas. They were all happy to go to Serb territory,

25 and perhaps there were some "voluntary" departures, and I meant to say

Page 24629

1 that it was under pressure, but even so they were happy to arrive on Serb

2 territory. In Serb Sarajevo, there was so many Serb refugees that the

3 population practically tripled --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to stop you because you

5 don't answer my question. My question was not to explain all the

6 circumstances but to explain the language you used, which is that you used

7 the term "expelled" for Serbs and you used the word "went over" for

8 Muslims when you compared the situation of the two. I'm just seeking to

9 understand whether it was your intention to make a distinction to the

10 effect that Serbs who left were expelled and whether Muslims who left went

11 over, which is the Serbs being expelled, there is certain -- there is

12 pressure, there would be force -- well, the proper meaning of the

13 word "expelled," whereas the word "went over" is far more neutral, whether

14 you wanted to make that distinction by using this language, yes or no.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not what I said, Your

16 Honour --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then, we'll then check that on the basis of the

18 original -- I'll ask the --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just explain what I was

20 trying to say, please --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but please then concentrate on what I ask you

22 and not the whole of an explanation of the circumstances. I'm asking you

23 about the language you used. And if you say: That's not what I said,

24 please then say what you said and we'll check that then on the original

25 tape. So please focus on the language you used.

Page 24630

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I very focussed -- let me just give

2 you one further sentence in clarification.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbs who went over to the Serb

5 territory were happy that they had gone over. They did not feel that they

6 had been expelled; they felt happy. That's what I said. And because I

7 had this impression, I thought that the Muslims wanted the same thing;

8 that's the entire philosophy that I was trying to present here, what I've

9 been saying.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll check the original language you used.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps I can just very briefly say that you -- you

14 know that we have to finish on the Trial Chamber's current directions by

15 the end of tomorrow, don't you? Examination-in-chief --

16 A. Well, you know what? You know what? Please, let me just tell you

17 something. I am answering the way I can, completely. You asked me what

18 my impression was in terms of how the Muslims left; I don't know how they

19 left. I based my impression on what I saw in the case of the Serbs;

20 that's the whole story. I didn't want to say anything else. I assumed

21 that just the way the Serbs wanted to go over to the other territory, I

22 thought that the Muslims wanted to go to their territory, too. I cannot

23 explain it in any other way. It's easy for me to say I don't know, but I

24 wanted to be of assistance to this Trial Chamber.

25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, all I want to say is subject to our duties to the

Page 24631

1 court, the one thing that is quite clear is that Mr. Josse and I are on

2 your side; everybody recognises that. But the -- because we are finishing

3 tomorrow, it just -- Mr. Krajisnik, if you would please, when I ask a

4 question, try to avoid feeling that because of those pressures you've got

5 to include all sorts of other things in order to make sure they're said.

6 I would still, please, invite you, as far as possible, to go with your

7 counsel's questions.

8 A. Mr. Stewart, if you were putting the right questions to me, if you

9 understood the problem, it would be easy for me to answer, but you are

10 asking me to say something -- I mean, if I were to say that the Serbs

11 expelled the Muslims, it wouldn't be right because I don't know about

12 this. So I was just trying to explain what my impression was and I wanted

13 to be of assistance. And I think that's useful. I know exactly what

14 every situation was. There is just this problem of a misunderstanding:

15 You do not understand me. And now whether the interpretation is this way

16 or that way. I am telling you that I am saying the truth, the whole

17 truth.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to stop you. One of the

19 questions put to you by Mr. Stewart was whether it was your view in

20 mid-1992 that for a Muslim to be forced at gunpoint to leave where he or

21 she lived and go to another municipality, forced by a Serb, whether that

22 was wrong, unlawful, not acceptable. You did just not answer that

23 question. I can imagine that you say: I think it was wrong, but to my

24 knowledge it never happened. Okay, fine, that's two lines, and I think

25 you gave a clear answer to Mr. Stewart.

Page 24632

1 You come with a long story, but you do not answer. You were asked

2 about an opinion, and in that opinion of course there is a suggestion --

3 your opinion is what you thought at that time. That's even a fact, what

4 was on your mind at that time. To that extent, it's not an opinion,

5 although you formed it as an opinion, perhaps at that time. If you would

6 like to add that it never happened, fine, just add one line but answer the

7 question, please.

8 Mr. Stewart, I gave this as an example; I take it that that --

9 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, that's most helpful.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said 100 times that

11 I don't know anything about this. I mean hypothetically what can I say?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But give me concrete questions and I

14 will give concrete answers. I will tell you everything I know.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Krajisnik, this question, if you

16 say: I never thought about it at that time, so therefore I couldn't tell

17 you what my opinion was because I didn't give it ever any thought and I

18 had no knowledge that it ever happened, that would have been a clear

19 answer to a clear question. So please focus on the questions when

20 answering them.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, but I am focussed, Your Honour.

22 Please, I'm answering your question. If I would condemn any person who

23 wanted to expel another person at gunpoint, that is a crime, and I've said

24 that ten times. Who has the right to expel someone at gunpoint?


Page 24633

1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, that --

2 MR. STEWART: I think, Your Honour, that answers that question of

3 mine, I think.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'll cut to the chase of exactly where I'm going.

7 At one end of the spectrum there is somebody driving somebody away

8 at gunpoint, which you acknowledge is criminal. It's unacceptable. At

9 the other end of the spectrum is, however unfortunate and tragic it is,

10 the circumstances of war leading people, through fear, to leave, and

11 people can argue about how forced that is, but that's, if you like, at the

12 other end of the spectrum here.

13 My question, then, to you is: Can you give the Trial Chamber some

14 idea of what you in 1992 regarded as acceptable where the line was between

15 what constituted assistance, without inverted commas, if you like,

16 legitimate assistance to people to leave, and where it became something

17 which was not acceptable, that was, in some way, a forced and unlawful way

18 of getting people to leave. Could you -- do you see the question and

19 could you give the Trial Chamber an idea of where you drew that line.

20 JUDGE ORIE: If you did do that in 1992. Of course I don't know

21 whether it has been --

22 MR. STEWART: Even --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but even in your mind there are a lot of matters

24 that I have -- never thought over in my life.

25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour is absolutely right. If the answer is

Page 24634

1 there was no such line in your head, you had no idea, you can say that,

2 Mr. Krajisnik, of course.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in 1991, not in 1992, but

4 always. I was always against forcible expulsions of the population. I

5 only thought that someone had the right to -- a voluntary choice to leave

6 if they are in fear and if they want to leave voluntarily. I think they

7 have the right to do that. Everybody was afraid of the war. I gave an

8 example. Quite simply, not at any point in time did I think that anyone

9 had the right to expel someone else.

10 Q. Did you give consideration in 1992 to the question whether it was

11 acceptable to -- to interfere or to threaten to interfere with somebody's

12 property rights as a way of encouraging them to leave where they lived?

13 A. You know what the interpretation was like now? I didn't

14 understand any of what you were saying.

15 So if I understand what you're saying that somebody is taking

16 somebody's property away, if somebody is supposed to transfer his property

17 to someone else, well, no, nobody has the right to do that. And

18 Mr. Karadzic said that at the Assembly, too, that if you are doing that

19 kind of thing you will have to annul it, on the 27th of July, that's when

20 he said it. And you have that agreement reached in Pale only in terms of

21 safe-guarding property, but not taking it away. Look at the agreement and

22 you will see.

23 Q. Did you have knowledge in 1992 of non-Serbs being asked to sign

24 forms anywhere in Bosnia and Herzegovina saying that they were leaving

25 their municipality voluntarily?

Page 24635

1 A. I did not know that, but I heard that on the 27th of July, we were

2 in a hurry to get to the London Conference, that Karadzic heard that from

3 some MP and he objected to that. And that's in the stenographic notes,

4 but I didn't pay any attention to that because I was in a hurry to get to

5 the conference, and I was not aware of any individual cases. Because in

6 Pale, I mean people did that, they were safe-guarding each other's

7 property. You take care of my property, I'll take care of your property.

8 So that was quite a normal thing. We always said that after the war

9 everybody's private property would be returned to whoever it belonged to.

10 Look at the stenographic notes of the 27th of July and you will see it

11 written there.

12 Q. Were you aware in 1992 of Serbs in any municipalities taking steps

13 to ensure that Muslims who left that municipality would never return?

14 A. I was not aware of that. I was not aware of these insane ideas.

15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, were you -- I'm turning to a different topic now.

16 Were you --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I just ask you, you have gone

18 through a relatively long list of matters we heard here as evidence and

19 whether Mr. Krajisnik was aware of that. Could I add one item to that

20 list?

21 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, in 1992, well, let's say the summer of

23 1992, and I'll just take one example of which we -- on which we heard

24 evidence, were you ever aware of killings at a larger scale of Muslims not

25 in relation to any combat activity and just, to give you an example, for

Page 24636

1 example, the Koricanske Stijene event where men were taken from buses and

2 a large number of them being directly killed. You certainly remember that

3 evidence, I take it. Did you ever hear about such events --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do remember.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were you aware of this or other similar events

6 that had taken place?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as for that incident,

8 I heard of it here. But even if there were a smaller-scale incident,

9 whenever I was present there was an immediate response to check this out,

10 whether it was correct or not. Those were the orders issues and

11 investigations carried out. I know about that. And there -- if there

12 were any indications of crimes having been committed, at any meeting that

13 I attended measures would be taken. I can say now that at every meeting I

14 attended, if something like that was heard measures were taken.

15 As for Koricanske Stijene, I never heard of that.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


19 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, when -- when you were involved in international

20 peace talks and negotiations in May, June, July 1992, were there occasions

21 or even one occasion on which you and your colleagues, Dr. Karadzic,

22 Mr. Koljevic, offered in the course of those meetings any sort of

23 cease-fire?

24 A. As far as I can remember, there was a proposal for a cease-fire

25 that was on the table all the time. The 12th of May, after the 12th of

Page 24637

1 May - I'm talking about Assemblies now - we always asked for that. Not

2 only we, but the international community, too. We always called for a

3 cease-fire in order for the talks to continue.

4 Q. And in making that offer of a cease-fire in those talks, you and

5 your colleagues were making an offer that you were able to implement, were

6 you?

7 A. I was not making these proposals. This was the joint view of our

8 delegation. And practically, as a rule, it was initiated by the

9 international community, and we always accepted that. Except on the 12th

10 of May at the Assembly, I think, where we asked at our own initiative for

11 a cessation of combat activities, for a continuation of negotiations --

12 well, even if war operations were to continue.

13 However, most of this was mediated by the international community,

14 UNPROFOR, or the European Community. We accepted that, but everything was

15 done through the Main Staff to keep this up, and we always received

16 information. If the Serb side was being accused of something, we would

17 invariably be told that it was the other side that did that, and that that

18 is how the cease-fire was broken. There were these mutual accusations.

19 Q. And what was the chain of command by which any cease-fire would be

20 implemented, a cease-fire on the Serb side?

21 A. Mr. Mladic was commander of the Main Staff, and he did that

22 according to his own line, according to the organisation that was there.

23 He was supposed to receive an order, I don't know how this was, from the

24 Presidency -- or rather, directly from Mr. Karadzic. And that is what was

25 brought to him and what then went down to the lowest level.

Page 24638

1 Q. You see, Mr. Krajisnik, there is a -- a intercept of a telephone

2 conversation showing that Mrs. Plavsic made a call -- well, say "made a

3 call," she had a telephone call, we don't know who made it, with

4 Mr. Stanisic on the 14th of May, 1992 in which she ordered him to ensure

5 that the Bosnian Serb forces were to cease fire at 1400 hours sharp, not a

6 minute earlier, not a minute later. Were you aware in 1992, in May, of

7 Mrs. Plavsic giving such orders?

8 A. No. And I can explain that telephone conversation because I went

9 through it with Mr. Josse, and in relation to some of the things that were

10 going on at the time.

11 Q. Well, it probably -- leave on one side any conversations you had

12 with Mr. Josse. If you would, yes, would give the Trial Chamber your

13 explanation and your evidence about what you know about that telephone

14 conversation, please.

15 A. Mrs. Plavsic was in Sarajevo, and she was in contact with

16 UNPROFOR, with Mr. Doyl, and I don't know who else, and they insisted on a

17 cease-fire, and there were mutual accusations bandied about, whether the

18 police from Vrace was firing at the Muslims or were the Muslims firing at

19 the police. You heard a few of these telephone conversations in which the

20 police complained that they were being shelled by the Muslims.

21 Since Mrs. Plavsic had been appointed member of the Presidency,

22 member of the supreme command, on the 12th of May, she knew that. And on

23 the 14th of May, she called the minister of the MUP at Vrace,

24 Mr. Stanisic, and she said to him: I agreed on a cease-fire on our side.

25 I hold you accountable for abiding by this, even if they fire at you,

Page 24639

1 because the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina is going to order their own

2 forces not to fire at you. If they fire at you, let me know and I'm going

3 to inform UNPROFOR.

4 She said to him: I hold you accountable for that, and he was

5 saying that he cannot take the fire any longer because he's under Muslim

6 fire all the time. And she said: Well, even if that is happening, let it

7 be seen but do not respond to fire. She wanted the cease-fire to be

8 established on that day.

9 She went to UNPROFOR later, and UNPROFOR helped her go to Serb

10 territory. At that time, I did not know about this telephone

11 conversation, but I can interpret the conversation that is there and the

12 role of Mrs. Plavsic.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, could you tell me what exhibit number we

14 are talking about.

15 MR. STEWART: I can give you the reference, Your Honour. I'm

16 not -- I don't know what exhibit number it is, Your Honour, but it is --

17 no, Your Honour. I don't know what the exhibit number is, Your Honour.

18 It's the 14th of May, 1992, but we can --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

20 MR. STEWART: During the break, if we can --

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'll find it on the 14th of May.

22 MR. STEWART: I wasn't -- I just didn't want to stop and take

23 time, but we'll try and find it for Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, can we be absolutely clear what your evidence is as

25 to the capacity in which Mrs. Plavsic was purporting to give such an

Page 24640

1 instruction. You said she had been appointed a member of the Presidency,

2 a member of the supreme command; she knew that. Was it in one or both of

3 those capacities or in some other capacity that Mrs. Plavsic was

4 purporting to give that order or instruction to Mr. Stanisic?

5 A. Mrs. Plavsic was made in charge of relations with UNPROFOR at one

6 particular meeting. She was in Sarajevo and she was the target of

7 different gangs. She sought UNPROFOR protection and she had contact with

8 them. Then this idea cropped up -- or rather, this task. And she called

9 the MUP at Vrace and the minister answered the phone. She talked to him,

10 first of all as the member of the Presidency who was in charge with

11 relations with UNPROFOR, and she knew that she became a member of the

12 Presidency in Banja Luka, that that is how it became lawful. Now she is

13 trying to make him deal with this seriously, that he should observe this

14 at all costs, but I believe that she did that because she cared first and

15 foremost about the Serb side not being blamed for this and for having the

16 cease-fire observed.

17 Now, what she thought, whether she was doing this as a member of

18 the supreme command, which she was; or as a member of the Presidency,

19 which she was; or as the person in charge of relations with UNPROFOR,

20 which she was. What she had in mind then, I don't know, but on all of

21 these accounts she had the right to order Mr. Stanisic to do that. This

22 is how this conversation took place in order to have the cease-fire

23 observed.

24 Q. Did you know at the time of this telephone conversation or that

25 there was communication on this specific matter between Mrs. Plavsic and

Page 24641

1 Mr. Stanisic?

2 A. I do not remember that I was following these matters, and I

3 believed that at that time I did not know anything about this. But I did

4 know that she was in Sarajevo and in a very difficult situation, that in

5 fact she was a prisoner.

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, I'm about to hand over to Mr. Josse,

7 so I don't know whether Your Honours would want two minutes of Mr. Josse

8 or would need a break before him.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Although every minute from Mr. Josse is a pleasure to

10 hear, nevertheless we would first have the break. We will resume at 10

11 minutes past 4.00.

12 Yes, Mr. Josse?

13 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, simply this: Could Mr. Krajisnik be

14 handed -- could he be handed the double pension material look at during

15 the break?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's no problem with that. And in order to

17 prevent that Mr. Krajisnik has other concerns as well, I can tell him that

18 next Tuesday, between 8.00 and 9.00 to the dentist, has the full support

19 of the Chamber, which would mean for the parties that we would have a

20 start later, and it depends --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- how much Mr. Krajisnik will have to suffer,

23 whether it will be 10.00 or 10.15.

24 Yes, the material may be handed out to Mr. Krajisnik and I think

25 as I said before, there's a favourable inclination of the Chamber to have

Page 24642

1 it discussed with him and of course, that's okay.

2 MR. JOSSE: Well, I suspect I'll have to do that at the second

3 break, when he's had a chance to read it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, approval is given for that.

5 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 10 minutes past 4.00

7 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, it was announced that we would have the

10 pleasure of your examination now. Please proceed -- not to say that it

11 was any less of a pleasure when Mr. Stewart examined the witness, but

12 please proceed.

13 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour. Just -- both parties have

14 ascertained that intercept that was referred to, which as P64A, binder 7,

15 tab 221. That's the one between Mrs. Plavsic and Mico Stanisic.

16 Examination by Mr. Josse: [Continued]

17 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, I am going to try and tidy up a few matters

18 that have been left unresolved in the course of questions I have asked you

19 previously. We had got yesterday to the point where Mr. Tieger helpfully

20 made it clear that you hadn't answered a question that I had asked. The

21 question was: Were you aware of the presence of several hundred

22 paramilitaries in Pale in the spring of 1992?

23 A. No, I was not aware of any paramilitary formations at Pale at that

24 time.

25 Q. The last matter in relation to the Muslim population of Pale that

Page 24643

1 I want to ask you about is this: The same witness alleged that he later

2 learnt, after his own departure, that 12 Muslims remained behind in Pale

3 during the war and that they were all killed. From your own knowledge,

4 are you aware of any Muslims who lived in and -- in Pale through the war?

5 A. I know of one case. We have a statement by a Muslim woman who

6 spent the war at Pale, but I don't know how many of them there were.

7 Q. Do you know her yourself during the war?

8 A. No, no, I didn't know her. But there is a statement, so I know

9 it's there.

10 Q. Are you aware of any Muslims having been killed in Pale during the

11 war?

12 A. I don't know of any such cases. It was in the purview of the MUP,

13 and whether such things happened, I don't know.

14 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, we have redone the documents that were

15 handed out yesterday.


17 MR. JOSSE: They are on the bench.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I have seen them now without comments.

19 MR. JOSSE: We would like numbers attributed to them and --

20 JUDGE ORIE: One by one, Mr. Josse?

21 MR. JOSSE: Well --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps that's a better way of dealing with it

23 because it's --

24 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Well, perhaps the registrar could do that whilst

25 I continue the examination.

Page 24644


2 MR. JOSSE: And we could come back to it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And the first document you would like to --

4 MR. JOSSE: The first document might as well be the one that has

5 the A upon it, which is the one dated the 9th of April, 1992.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D197, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

9 MR. JOSSE: Does Your Honour want me to go through them one by

10 one?

11 JUDGE ORIE: No, I take it that you're putting questions about

12 these documents.

13 MR. JOSSE: I'm not.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You're not.

15 MR. JOSSE: I'm not.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the next one would then be B -- be Crisis

17 Staff document, 11th of April, 1992.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D198, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: D198. Then the third one would be?

20 MR. JOSSE: That's --

21 JUDGE ORIE: It is an article from Glas, 17th of April, 1992, the

22 date appears on the text. That would be?

23 THE REGISTRAR: D199, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The next one would be document D, which is a

25 document, an order, from the Pale Crisis Staff. Is that -- it sounds so

Page 24645

1 familiar. It's -- I think it's in evidence already, isn't it, these

2 telephone numbers that were cut off?

3 MR. JOSSE: The telephone numbers that were cut off is in evidence

4 already, that's correct.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we don't need D --

6 MR. JOSSE: I'm sorry, I should have spotted that. That's right.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then E is a document, the Municipal Assembly of

8 the municipality of Pale, at least the president of it addressing the SDS

9 secretary. That would be -- and that's 12th of June, 1992, would be,

10 Mr. --

11 THE REGISTRAR: D200, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: D200.

13 Next one would be F, which seems to be -- at least that's what

14 your explanation says, the minutes of the Pale Skupstina opstina Pale,

15 that's the Assembly of Pale municipality, 18th of June, 1992, would be?

16 THE REGISTRAR: D201, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: 201.

18 Next one would be G, which is a decision of the Pale Assembly

19 if -- dated the 19th of June, 1992, would be D?

20 THE REGISTRAR: 202, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: 202.

22 The next one would be H is a handwritten document described as a

23 request made by ten Muslims sent to the Pale Assembly, Skupstina opstina

24 Pale. And is it correct that it's addressed at Pale SUP, Mr. Josse?

25 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

Page 24646

1 JUDGE ORIE: So the SUP being the address used here to send

2 something to the Assembly. That would be D?

3 THE REGISTRAR: 203, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: 203. And, yes, that was the 22nd of June.

5 Next document --

6 MR. JOSSE: I notice the next document has an ERN number upon it.

7 I -- I'm afraid I don't know whether it's been exhibited.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Not on -- let me just see -- yes, because the -- what

9 we find after H, the first page, is a page also handwritten but in

10 apparently a different handwriting. And a stamp on the top of it,

11 Skupstina opstina Pale. It is dated the 22nd of June. Is that part of H,

12 Mr. Josse, or does it belong to I?

13 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Same topic, different document.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Same -- so we should then make the first one, that is

15 the 22nd of June, 1992, with 12 names on it is D203, perhaps A. And then

16 the next one with a list of 25 names on it, although it seems to other

17 persons are -- oh, no, I see already that's -- yes -- well, next one is,

18 you say, similar document. That would be 203B --

19 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- I would say.

21 Next one is I. You say there's an ERN number on it. Do we know

22 whether it's in evidence? Is there any way of searching very quickly?

23 MR. JOSSE: We've looked and we couldn't find any reference to it.

24 JUDGE ORIE: You couldn't find it. We'll assign a number to it

25 provisionally. It's a document --

Page 24647

1 MR. JOSSE: No, no. Could Your Honour give me one moment?


3 MR. JOSSE: P64A, tab 738.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check whether that's -- whether I have a

5 similar ...

6 MR. HARMON: There may be another number, Your Honour, P529,

7 Hanson tab 526.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the most important point is, at least, whether

9 it's in evidence, yes or no. 738. Yes. 25th of June, handwritten

10 0016092. Yes, that's in evidence -- at least perhaps under other numbers

11 as well, but 64A is 738, so it doesn't need a number to be assigned.

12 Then we have J, document J, that should be a letter of the Serbian

13 people from Radovica sent to the Skupstina opstina Pale, also dated the

14 25th of June, with -- and there I -- Mr. Josse, I see some handwriting on

15 it, but it's cut off at the bottom with a date on it, the 25th of August,

16 1992. And it's not clear to me whether that's -- has any relevance to the

17 documents. Could you please have a look at that?

18 MR. JOSSE: Yes. We'll check to see if we've got a better copy.

19 That's the best I can do.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we provisionally, then, assign the next

21 number. That would be, Mr. Registrar?

22 THE REGISTRAR: D204, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: 204.

24 K, document of the 2nd of July, says that it's a decision of the

25 MUP in Pale. Yes, that would be D?

Page 24648

1 THE REGISTRAR: 205, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: 205.

3 L is badly legible, but it seems to be an exchange contract

4 Crncalo --

5 MR. JOSSE: But it's clearly important. I fear it's going to be

6 sent back from the CLSS. Could it be given a number at this stage?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, provisionally we'll assign a number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: D206, Your Honours.


10 MR. JOSSE: We've already asked the CLSS to translate as much as

11 they possibly can.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if there would be any better copy, of course,

13 that would be preferred.

14 I take it that the next -- the -- is that the back of the

15 document? It seems that it's --

16 MR. JOSSE: Yes --

17 JUDGE ORIE: There's a stamp on it, and it --

18 MR. JOSSE: No, Your Honour's right.

19 JUDGE ORIE: -- and it's -- it gives same names, at least one of

20 the names -- no, two names on it -- yes, all the names of those who appear

21 on the -- on the front also appear on the back, as far as I can see.

22 Okay. That's -- we take it at this moment that that's the back of the

23 same page?

24 MR. JOSSE: That's what Mr. Sladojevic tells me.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then that is part of the document. It doesn't

Page 24649

1 need -- then document M is a list of registered contracts. No date on it,

2 although the entries often are of 1992, at least at the first page. That

3 would be, Mr. Registrar?

4 THE REGISTRAR: D207, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: 207. And it seems that the last -- may I just ask

6 you, Mr. Josse, it looks as if it's one page out of a register containing

7 the number 771 up to and including 775. The second page, I take it, is

8 the -- is the right-hand side of that same document. Is that how I should

9 understand it? Yes, it very much seems because we have --

10 MR. JOSSE: That --

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- columns 1 to 4 on the first page, and 5 to 8 on

12 the second one. And then finally we'd --

13 MR. JOSSE: We'd invite the Court to infer that.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then we have, finally, a last page with a

15 stamp on it which seems to be related to that, because it seems to be some

16 stamp of -- at least it comes from Pale. And the date, 22nd of February,

17 2005, is the date. So we take that to be part of document D207.

18 Then we go to the next one which is N, 6th of July, 1992, decision

19 of the MUP of Pale.

20 Mr. Registrar, that would be ...

21 THE REGISTRAR: D208, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Next one, document 6th of July, 1992, report of the

23 Pale MUP regarding the verification of place of residence of Muslim and

24 Croat citizens. Yes, that would be D ...

25 THE REGISTRAR: 209, Your Honours.

Page 24650

1 JUDGE ORIE: 209.

2 Next one being document P, 6th of July, 1992, conclusions of the

3 Pale Executive Committee. That would be D ...

4 THE REGISTRAR: D210, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me just have a look. Yes.

6 Mr. Josse, perhaps with the assistance of Mr. Sladojevic, I see

7 two signatures with what seems to be people with different -- from

8 different organisations, apart from, of course, their names being -- it's

9 described here as conclusions of the Pale Executive Committee. The first

10 seems to say something of the president of this and this and this, and

11 then the second is something like the commander of what seems to be this

12 staff, but not the usual Crisis Staff.

13 Could we just -- could I just check whether the description that

14 is -- these are conclusions of the Pale Executive Committee is --

15 MR. JOSSE: Would you like Mr. Sladojevic to read the B/C/S?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, to read slowly just the two -- the -- the two

17 lines, two times, in capitals above the names of those two signed it.

18 MR. SLADOJEVIC: [Interpretation] "President of the Executive

19 Committee. Commander of the staff of the civilian protection."

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then as a matter of fact, on the top of the

21 document it's -- from what I see it just says that it's the Serbian

22 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina opstina Pale, without -- no, I see

23 that -- and then there's one line under that which may identify the body

24 from which it -- could Mr. Sladojevic read that as well, which -- just the

25 third line from the top, under opstina Pale it reads --

Page 24651

1 MR. SLADOJEVIC: [Interpretation] "Executive Committee."

2 JUDGE ORIE: That has been clarified, so signed by two persons of

3 different bodies, but at the top the Executive Committee.

4 That, Mr. Registrar, would be D ...

5 THE REGISTRAR: 211, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: 211.

7 Next document would be under Q, date is 7th of July, 1992,

8 described as information of the Pale Executive Committee. Yes, we see

9 that's the same at the top. Sent to the Pale war commission to be handed

10 over to Mrs. Plavsic. That would be D ...

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, the number I just -- Mr. Registrar just gave

13 for the document which -- we find under P should be 210.

14 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And then under Q it would be 211, I take it,

16 Mr. Registrar?

17 THE REGISTRAR: 211, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: 211.

19 And then we go to what we find with an R on

20 it. We leave all the letters on it. They are added by the Defence,

21 otherwise we have to take them out again, but that's --

22 MR. JOSSE: That's right, they're purely there for identification.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So R would be ...

24 THE REGISTRAR: 212, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: 212. It's a document of the 10th of July, 1992,

Page 24652

1 described as a conclusion of the Pale Executive Committee.

2 Then under S we find a document, 14th of July, 1992, also from the

3 Pale Executive Committee conclusion would be D ...

4 THE REGISTRAR: 213, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: 213.

6 Then under T we find a document with the same description but now

7 from the 16th of July, 1992, would be ...

8 THE REGISTRAR: D214, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: 214.

10 Then under U we find a document dated the 10th of August, 1992,

11 from the Pale SO, stands for Skupstina opstina, I take it, yes, which is a

12 decision on giving -- of temporary use of free, deserted, and unlawfully

13 occupied houses. That would be ...

14 THE REGISTRAR: D215, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: 215.

16 And, finally last one under V is a document dated the 21st of

17 October, 1992. It again is a conclusion originating from the Pale

18 Executive Committee.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Josse --

20 THE REGISTRAR: That would be ...

21 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I forgot, Mr. --

22 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D216, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: D216.

24 I take it that translations will be provided as soon as possible?

25 MR. JOSSE: That's right.

Page 24653

1 JUDGE ORIE: And the Prosecution will have an opportunity to

2 object once we have received that. Fortunately here the availability of

3 the witness at a later stage might not be that much of a problem if any

4 further questions would be -- would have to be put to the witness in

5 respect of these documents.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


8 Q. The next matter I'd like to clear up, Mr. Krajisnik, is this:

9 Yesterday you mentioned a document or a report prepared by the government

10 of Bosnia and Herzegovina which dealt with comparative indicators of

11 population, and that is also on the learned Judges' bench. Could you be

12 given a copy of it, please.

13 If I may briefly explain the position. It's right, isn't it, that

14 this, in fact, is a brochure which you obtained through your own means.

15 It is a brochure that is in both B/C/S and English. We have only copied

16 the English part of it. No doubt you can make available the B/C/S part.

17 MR. TIEGER: We either do not have it or have insufficient

18 information to identify it. Perhaps we can have an ERN number or some

19 more specific --

20 MR. JOSSE: It has no ERN number. I've made arrangements for it

21 to be supplied to my learned friends by their office first thing this

22 morning.

23 MR. TIEGER: That helped, thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: From a distance, I see that it's the same document as

25 the Judges have.

Page 24654


2 Q. So, Mr. Krajisnik, it's right that we only have the English here,

3 and I suspect you haven't brought the original with you. There's no

4 reason why you should, because you didn't know I was going to deal with it

5 today. The reason I'm dealing with it today is you mentioned it

6 yesterday. What do you want the Chamber to use it for, please?

7 A. I want to draw attention to the fact that this was a brochure

8 issued by the official government of Bosnia-Herzegovina dealing with

9 movements of the population. It can be very useful when drawing

10 conclusions on the part of the Trial Chamber.

11 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could it have a number, please?


13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D217, Your Honours.

14 MR. JOSSE: If the Trial Chamber requires, at least for the

15 registry version, the B/C/S part of this brochure, I'll need to ask

16 Mr. Krajisnik to provide it to the Defence team and we will copy it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm also now looking at the Prosecution. We see that

18 we have a cover page which, even in a similar layout, gives the content of

19 it. Does the Prosecution wish this document to -- which is mainly a

20 matter of -- no, not all of it, so some text in it as well. The major

21 part of it are statistics, from what I can see, to receive that in B/C/S

22 as well? Yes?

23 MR. TIEGER: I think we can -- I mean, at the moment I can see no

24 reason why we would make that request, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Of course you'll have an opportunity to further -- it

Page 24655

1 may come as a surprise at this moment, this document. Well, let's say,

2 for whatever reasons, because you think that the English version does not

3 correspond with the original, could we hear from you, well, whether we

4 would say not any later than ten days from now?

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I can direct the Court's attention to

6 the portion behind the green page, I think that --

7 JUDGE ORIE: You have a green page, we do not have a green page.

8 MR. TIEGER: Okay. Then apparently we have a B/C/S copy.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You have the B/C/S? Then you have an opportunity to

10 see -- because otherwise it has to be copied again and it saves half a

11 wood, if you would be happy with the English.

12 MR. TIEGER: Well, I stand corrected, but my -- the original

13 position is maintained the -- what appeared to be a B/C/S version

14 contained a B/C/S cover page and the rest of the document appears to be

15 essentially the same. So nevertheless -- so one doesn't appear to exist,

16 but as I said before, at the moment I can't see that such a request would

17 be made.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Any wish should be presented within ten days.

19 Mr. Josse.


21 Q. Unless there is something particular, Mr. Krajisnik, you wish to

22 draw to the Trial Chamber's attention about this brochure, I'm going to

23 move on to the Davidovic documents --

24 JUDGE ORIE: At a certain moment, I take it, Mr. Josse, the

25 Chamber will better understand what it has to do with it because we will

Page 24656

1 not learn by heart all the numbers, and these are statistics which are --

2 well, not only about what has been the -- one of the subjects of the

3 testimony that is in the composition of the population, but also on a lot

4 of events that happened after the armed conflict, from what I see, such as

5 reconstruction of destroyed houses, et cetera, et cetera. So I don't know

6 exactly what we have to do with that at this moment, but we'll learn that,

7 I take it, at a later stage?

8 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


11 Q. Unless there's anything you want to add now, Mr. Krajisnik?

12 A. Yes. I'm really sorry I haven't brought the original brochure.

13 You have a copy and I have a copy. It would be quite in order if a copy

14 was given to the OTP and to the Trial Chamber.

15 Yesterday I spoke --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, it seems that everyone for the time

17 being accepts that there is a B/C/S original, which we can't read anyhow,

18 so please tell us what you'd like to tell us about it.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would be easier for me if I had

20 the B/C/S. That's the problem, but very well.


22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Krajisnik. I'm sure

23 Mr. Stewart will give me a few minutes tomorrow to return to this

24 document. So put it away. You can bring the original brochure and we'll

25 deal with this tomorrow. Okay?

Page 24657

1 JUDGE ORIE: And I take it that the untranslated parts that we

2 learn about that as well, so I see the word "sovozverno" [phoen] appearing

3 a lot of times, which I do not know what it is, some of the statistics.


5 Q. If you bring your -- the original, Mr. Krajisnik, tomorrow, I will

6 ask you some questions about it then.

7 Let's move on then, please, to the documents that have been

8 provided in relation to Mr. Davidovic. Could you be handed a bundle of

9 these.

10 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, the translations have been done by a

11 member of our team, not Mr. Sladojevic for what it's worth. We accept

12 these translations are not perfect, and if these documents are going to be

13 admitted into evidence, they're going to clearly need to go to the CLSS.

14 Now, Your Honour, we had got to the point in relation to this where there

15 was some discussion between the parties and the Trial Chamber as to what

16 to do with these documents in the light of how the cross-examination of

17 Mr. Davidovic had proceeded. It is the second document in this bundle,

18 which has 2 at the right-hand corner, the B/C/S original which is on the

19 other side of the page, on the back of it, so to speak, that I suspect

20 Mr. Krajisnik particularly wants to comment upon. I would invite him to

21 comment upon it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first see whether we have the -- we don't

23 have any 2 on it.

24 MR. JOSSE: 2 at the bottom of the page in the English --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, on the English. That's authorisation --

Page 24658

1 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- 17th of February, 19 --

3 MR. JOSSE: Precisely.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- apart from whether there would be any

5 objections at a later stage, Mr. Tieger, you're on your feet.

6 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. This document -- I believe this is

7 the document was the subject of at least some discussion between Mr. Josse

8 and myself. Mr. Josse indicated that he -- at that time he wanted to

9 consider the -- one way or another the possible introduction of this

10 document and that -- but we would at that point have -- possibly have

11 further discussion about it.

12 If, indeed, this is the document, I simply -- I'd like to know

13 that. There's no point in having a discussion about it with the witness

14 if the -- if -- and thereafter have a question -- a discussion about its

15 admissibility. So I don't want to put -- I don't think we should put the

16 cart before the horse, if indeed that is the document which has been the

17 subject of our discussion. I believe it is.

18 MR. JOSSE: Let me interrupt. I'm in no doubt that this is the

19 document that Mr. Krajisnik attempted to put to Mr. Davidovic and

20 Ms. Loukas commented on -- the passage in the transcript, Your Honour,

21 alluded to are referred to, in fact, a few days ago. I'm in no doubt

22 about that.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Without giving a final decision on whether the

25 Chamber will admit this document in evidence, yes or no, whether --

Page 24659

1 without giving any final decision on whether that, for example, would be

2 under the condition that the other witness would have to re-appear, we'll

3 consider that, but we do not stop at this moment, Mr. Josse, in

4 introducing the document with this proviso.

5 Mr. Josse.


7 Q. Before it's given a number, because it may in fact be better to

8 give the documents numbers in chronological order, comment on this

9 document dated the 17th of February, 1994. Why do you say it's

10 significant?

11 A. It's significant because it's linked to this first document.

12 Mr. Djurkovic was authorised in 1994 to carry out exchanges of the

13 civilian population and prisoners, as far as I can recall. The request

14 for this to be his work obligation is dated 10th of July, 1993. Before

15 that, he could not have engaged in this activity. The authorisation was

16 signed by the government commissioner of Republika Srpska and the state

17 commission for exchanges, people's deputy, Milan Tesic, and it bears the

18 government stamp. It also states that in the heading.

19 The next document from the same time period is signed by the same

20 person and bears the same stamp. So he couldn't have been doing that in

21 1992, but only after he got this work obligation. I wanted to show all

22 three documents to the witness, but first I wanted him to see this

23 authorisation and to say whether this is, indeed, the relevant document.

24 MR. JOSSE: Could those first three documents have numbers then,

25 please?

Page 24660

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That would be 218, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: 218 for the document dated the 10th of July, 1993,

4 yes.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document dated the 17th February, 1994, Your

6 Honours, would be D219.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. And then --

8 THE REGISTRAR: The third one dated 18th November, 1994, would

9 be D220.


11 Q. That takes us, Mr. Krajisnik, to the next document in the bundle,

12 which is dated the 4th of July of 1995. What, if anything, is of

13 significance of that? It's the one that's a request for Muslim

14 civilians --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- in the corridor of Tuzla.

17 A. This refers to the commission submitting a request to the corps in

18 Bijeljina, that is to say, to the Army of Republika Srpska, to its

19 commander, Novica Simic, for him to make it possible for them to allow the

20 civilian Muslim population to go from Tuzla to Bijeljina. There is an

21 explanation here and a signature -- or rather, signatures of the members

22 of the commission. So this is, by way of an example, as to how they

23 worked.

24 MR. JOSSE: Could that have a number, please?

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D221, Your Honours.

Page 24661

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


3 Q. And then we have, in fact, a document going back almost two years

4 in time, the 4th of September, 1993, which is again a transit document

5 signed by Colonel Tomic. What does that show?

6 A. Yes, that shows that at that time the central commission gave its

7 approval to the regional commission for a convoy to pass through their

8 territory. This does not directly relate to this Djurkovic, although that

9 is what is handwritten. But this is an example as to how this convoy

10 could go through the territory. The commission had probably existed even

11 before Mr. Djurkovic became involved in this work.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. JOSSE: Could that have a number?

14 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D222, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


17 Q. And finally, Mr. Krajisnik, there is a document in fact signed by

18 Mr. Davidovic dated the 30th of June, 1992. Is this a document you want

19 to bring to the Trial Chamber's attention?

20 A. Our investigators got this document from Bijeljina, I don't know

21 from who, and it gives an answer to a question that was put by the Trial

22 Chamber. It has to do with seized cars and how they were allocated. The

23 signature here is of Mr. Davidovic, that he, as chief of police of the

24 Serb MUP, that's what it says here, Milorad Davidovic, that he allocated

25 this seized car to be used for the needs of the Serb MUP of

Page 24662

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 This is very important. In June 1992, according to all available

3 data, he was not the chief; at least that's what he said. He was not the

4 chief in Bijeljina but he was, as he had put it, the representative of

5 Serbia. But here it says that he is the chief of the police of the Serb

6 MUP, who is giving his approval for this seized car. A scene-of-crime

7 technician had examined it and inspected it and probably thought that it

8 had been stolen or something like that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, where does the document say that it's

10 a seized motor car?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it says here: Report

12 of -- a crime technician's report on the examination of a car. It says on

13 the 30th of June, 1992, the chief of police asked for a criminal technical

14 examination of a passenger vehicle and to establish the type, make, the

15 number of chassis and so on. This is to say that if it was being

16 processed in this way that this had to do with a seized car that was of

17 unknown provenance. So all of this had to be established in order to know

18 what this was all about. He carried this out, and he, indeed, established

19 this what that was all about.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Whether that is true or not is another matter, but at

21 least the document doesn't say so, but it's your interpretation of this

22 document.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's my interpretation,

24 and that is what was stated by those who sent it out to us, but whether

25 that was actually the case can be established by some experts.

Page 24663

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

2 MR. JOSSE: Could that have a number, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: The document dated 30th of June, 1992, Your

4 Honours, would be D223.

5 MR. JOSSE: Could I just ask about translations. Presumably the

6 Trial Chamber would like these sent to the CLSS to be officially

7 translated?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it is to be preferred that we have an

9 official translation of these documents.

10 MR. JOSSE: We'll do that.

11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you can put those documents away; I'm going to move

12 to a completely different topic. And this relates to the departure of the

13 Serbs from Sarajevo after Dayton.

14 There was a witness who appeared before this Chamber who alleged

15 that you encouraged Serbs to leave, and this witness suggested you even

16 encouraged them to take their graves and traffic signs with them. What do

17 you say on this topic?

18 A. It would be a good thing if we were to place the map of Sarajevo

19 here to show where the lines are. It would be easier for the Trial

20 Chamber to understand. I have the map and I think you have it, too, what

21 Muslim Sarajevo was and what Serb Sarajevo was.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think there's one map in evidence giving the --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that would be good, yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know exactly which number it was, but it was

25 not long ago introduced from --

Page 24664

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Perhaps a few days ago.

2 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, it was the map that was used in

3 explaining to us what the roads were between Pale and Lukavica.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's right.

5 MR. JOSSE: I don't have an up-to-date Defence exhibit list.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's not the map I had in mind. It's --

7 Mr. Krajisnik, I think it was Mr. Krajisnik who had drawn these lines

8 which come close to Grbavica and the other road, the road through the

9 woods, which was more southerly. It was marked ...

10 MR. JOSSE: We think it might be D190.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- yes, that's the map. Could it be put on

12 the ELMO, and we ignore just for the time being the roads and just look at

13 the confrontation lines that were already on the map. So we --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is the central part of

15 Sarajevo. This is the part that was held by the Muslim forces. Around is

16 the periphery that was held by the Serbs. And the outskirts of the

17 central part of Sarajevo, that is what was called Serb Sarajevo.

18 This part, the northern part, is the part where many Serbs from

19 Central Bosnia came to. So out of 50 -- out of a population of 50.000,

20 this population grew to, say, 70.000. Most of the Serbs out of 130, and

21 at the plebiscite there were 180, were in the central part of Sarajevo,

22 here.

23 On the periphery there were less Serbs because these are villages.

24 And when Dayton came -- or rather, when the Dayton Agreement was signed,

25 we possessed the periphery. And the central part was actually under the

Page 24665

1 authority of Muslims. Everybody left Sarajevo, those who were under the

2 Muslim government and those who were under the Serb government.

3 The only thing that we advocated was that the Serbs who were in

4 the Serb part of Sarajevo should stay on because we did not have any

5 contact with the Serbs from the central part of Sarajevo, and we also

6 didn't know how they felt. A referendum was held in these peripheral

7 parts where people wanted to remain under their own government, their

8 local government. And that is why what some witnesses said is not true,

9 that any one of us called for the Serbs to leave.

10 Because this witness, who was a protected one, could have been

11 asked the following question: Well, you were there where 90 per cent of

12 the pre-war Serbs were. Why did those Serbs from your part of Sarajevo

13 leave Sarajevo? You received information today that on the entire

14 territory of Sarajevo there is 10 to 12.000. So we were not in contact

15 with these Serbs and we didn't stop them either. We didn't ask them to

16 stay in Sarajevo, but they left nevertheless. I said why the other ones

17 left. But in the central part there were about 100.000 Serbs there before

18 1992. They left because they wanted to leave Sarajevo at all costs, not

19 to be under the Muslim authorities, because during the war, as they said,

20 they experienced some terrible things.

21 I said that nowadays -- or rather, precisely today the Serb

22 representatives don't want to attend the Assembly meeting. They want a

23 commission to be activated, to activate a commission on the investigation

24 of what happened to Serbs during the war in this Muslim area. There is a

25 list of 3.000 missing Serbs from Sarajevo. And 10.000 are still being

Page 24666

1 looked for. I have exact information on who was taken away and how.

2 As for this part, Serb Sarajevo, those parts that were supposed to

3 come under the Muslim government, too, you have a video-recording here,

4 too, my press conference and of Admiral Layton Smith. We just asked for

5 an extension of time by six months so that people would feel safe, because

6 everybody actually wanted to stay on, but they asked to have a local

7 government of their own.

8 There is a document. Well, this all went slowly. Why? First

9 those who came from the central part of Bosnia-Herzegovina left, those who

10 came to this Serb part, and they were the first to leave as soon as Dayton

11 was signed. There were columns of people leaving, and we kept asking

12 people to stay on.

13 There was this conference in London that was attended by Mr.

14 Aleksa Buha. There is a document to that effect. He asked them to give

15 us a solution based on what was agreed upon in Dayton, before the final

16 solution, and what had been agreed on, that all of Sarajevo should remain

17 united, that it should be transformed and turned into a district. The

18 Muslim side didn't want to accept that. They wanted their own government

19 to take these parts urgently. Therefore, we did not meet with

20 understanding, so in order not to have someone say that we allowed the

21 Serbs to leave Sarajevo, the city Assembly had a meeting and adopted a

22 document. It is everyone's own free will as to whether they want to stay

23 or whether they want to leave, and the majority left Sarajevo.

24 That is why it is completely incorrect that any one of us

25 instigated the Serbs to leave.

Page 24667

1 Your Honours, it is being bandied about in the public that Momcilo

2 Krajisnik said: When you leave, even take traffic signs with you. That

3 is a pure fabrication.

4 In Hadzici, the president of the municipality, who reached an

5 agreement with Bratunac that the entire municipality would move to

6 Bratunac, said at a big rally: We are going to take even traffic signs.

7 When I was persuading the Serbs to stay on I said: Be patient,

8 stay on, things will get better. This is what this gentleman said,

9 Mr. Ratko Radic. As he said: When you leave you can take traffic signs,

10 I meant it figuratively, but don't leave, stay there.

11 So please, this map is important. That's where all the

12 intelligentsia was, all the intellectuals were. After Belgrade, this was

13 the major Serb intellectual centre, so the Serb National Council was here

14 that was headed by Mr. Mirko Pejanovic. They could have done whatever

15 they wanted to to keep people there, but everybody left except for a few

16 individual cases, a few percentage points, if I can put it that way. They

17 went to this side, this other side, and in Dayton we didn't want to have a

18 divided city; now the city is divided, unjustly, but there is this Serb

19 part, whereas all the rest is the Muslim part. And there aren't any

20 Croats or Serbs there. The city of Sarajevo is monolithic, except for

21 individual cases that they are presenting as show cases now in order to

22 show their multi-ethnicity in this way.

23 So this is an example, the Serbs had a choice: To stay or to

24 leave. They were not expelled by the Muslims, but they had some kind of

25 fear and you could not keep people there even theoretically. I don't

Page 24668

1 think that somebody expelled them from Sarajevo, because it would have

2 been 100 times better for them to stay on in Sarajevo rather than live, as

3 they do nowadays, as refugees, under difficult conditions.

4 So this is the whole truth. All these documents are there, so

5 please have a look at them.

6 You will see what the solution for Sarajevo was in Dayton as well.

7 I want to say for the sake of the truth that our delegation had agreed

8 with Mr. Holbrooke on a solution for Sarajevo, and one night it was

9 changed. And I don't think it would be right for me to talk about that

10 now, why this kind of solution was provided for Sarajevo.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, it was a very long answer. Could I have a

12 few precise questions.

13 You were talking about the plebiscite. What plebiscite held at

14 what time? No further explanation, just when approximately and what was

15 the subject.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the end of 1995, the Serbs from

17 the Serb part of Sarajevo expressed their views as to whether they would

18 stay or whether they would leave -- or actually whether they wanted to

19 have their own government. I don't know what the question was, but at any

20 rate they had a plebiscite. It was a kind of referendum.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's one.

22 And second, do I understand that those Serbs who were living in

23 Serb-controlled area were encouraged to stay? I understood that to be

24 irrespective of whether they had lived there all of their lives or whether

25 they were from other origin? And second, Serbs living in

Page 24669

1 Muslim-controlled areas were not encouraged to leave that area. Is that,

2 of course very brief, the bottom line of your answer?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had contact with Serbs in the

4 Serb part of Sarajevo, and we besieged them to stay on. We did not have

5 contact with Serbs in the Muslim part of Sarajevo, so we were not saying

6 that they should stay or that they should leave because we did not have

7 any contact with them. I went to different rallies, so I spoke to people.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.


10 Q. What about the suggestion Serbs removed the graves of their dead?

11 A. Well, this is a big sin in Christianity, to move graves. People

12 were carrying graves. They transferred them to Serb territory. My late

13 wife is still in the same grave that is behind Zabrdje.

14 If I were instigating someone to do that kind of thing, first I

15 would have exhumed my wife. It is still there with a broken tombstone,

16 broken by some irresponsible individuals. But every family -- or not

17 every family, many families exhumed their dead, especially the fighters

18 who got killed, and they transferred them to Serb territory. It's not

19 only my wife, but all the deceased Krajisniks are still there, except for

20 one person.

21 MR. JOSSE: Would that be a convenient moment, Your Honour? I

22 know it's a little early, but it would give the Defence a chance to

23 regroup, so to speak?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's no problem. We'll adjourn until quarter

25 to 6.00.

Page 24670

1 MR. JOSSE: I'm going to go and see Mr. Krajisnik about the double

2 pensions.

3 JUDGE ORIE: This is approved.

4 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

5 --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.


9 Q. I'd now like to -- you've something you'd like to say,

10 Mr. Krajisnik?

11 A. May I just add one thing in connection with Sarajevo, please, very

12 briefly? Excuse me, but this is a map of Bosnia-Herzegovina. By your

13 leave --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this part here was

16 given to the Serbs by Dayton. This part here to the Croats. After the

17 Dayton Accord, all these people moved, the Croats and Muslims, from here,

18 and the Serbs from here, the Serbs from Sarajevo, although the NATO pact

19 arrived. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

21 MR. JOSSE: This is the map from the brochure, D217, for the

22 record.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we recognise that.


25 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, I would like to turn to intercepts. Do you

Page 24671

1 still have your bundle of intercepts? And I would like to turn to the

2 intercept that bears the Defence tab number 193. It is P292, KID31469.

3 It's a conversation between you and Mr. Mandic on the 25th of June, 1992.

4 And on the second page in English, towards the top of the page, Mr. Mandic

5 says: "Mr. President."

6 You say: "Yes."

7 He says: "The first part has been mopped up. It was done today."

8 You say: "Did they leave?"

9 He says: "Yes, it's been mopped up."

10 You say: "Huh?"

11 He says: "The first part has been mopped up.".

12 Can you help the Chamber -- two regards, I'm going to ask two

13 questions, if I may, at the same time. First of all, what is he referring

14 to; and secondly, what does he mean when he used the word -- or the

15 expression "mopped up"?

16 A. This is military terminology, meaning that there had been some

17 fighting, and now he thinks that this has been mopped up; in other words,

18 that the opposite sides soldiers are no longer there. This is a little

19 bit mixed up. It's very hard for me to see this.

20 Q. On the 28th of September of 2004 --

21 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour, sorry before we go on.

22 I -- just for the record my interpretation of the intercept

23 indicates -- it lists -- it indicates clearly and specifically the word in

24 B/C/S and then the English is "mopped up" or "cleansed" to reflect the

25 possibilities for that translation. And I think the record should reflect

Page 24672

1 it that the intercept bears that translation.

2 MR. JOSSE: Yes. I'm afraid I don't have that, and I'm very

3 grateful to my learned friend, and clearly that's very important. Bearing

4 in mind that was the purpose of the question, I'm grateful to him.

5 Could -- I don't know if my learned friend's version is unmarked.

6 If it is, I would ask that it be put on the ELMO.

7 MR. TIEGER: I'm just going to double-check to make sure it is.

8 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could we just also zoom in first on the numbers at

10 the top of the page to see whether they are different? Could I please ...

11 MR. JOSSE: They are not different.

12 JUDGE ORIE: They are the same, but nevertheless there's a

13 different text, isn't it?

14 MR. JOSSE: It is a different text.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Now we have under the same number different

16 documents, which is not something I'm very pleased with. I would like to

17 check this is material that is already in evidence.

18 Mr. Registrar, could you provide us with P29 -- let me just check

19 what we have here --

20 MR. JOSSE: Could I give one other reference whilst that is being

21 done?


23 MR. JOSSE: Because I was going to do this anyway. It was played

24 to this court on the 28th of September, 2004, at page 6228 of the

25 transcript during the course of the evidence of Mr. Kljujic.

Page 24673

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but let's first see what we find in P292.

2 Please continue meanwhile, Mr. --


4 Q. Well, let me go on then, Mr. Krajisnik, because what Mr. Kljujic

5 said about this was -- he used it in some way to support the proposition

6 that you had knowledge that ethnic cleansing was taking place, placing

7 some reliance, as I understand it, on the word that is causing all the

8 difficulty. What do you say about Mr. Kljujic's proposition?

9 A. It would be a good thing to read out the entire intercepted

10 conversation, and I will reply.

11 What the Prosecutor said, this first part, "ociscen" before that,

12 I said: Has he gone, has it gone? Because the purpose of my conversation

13 with Mandic was to ask him whether he had done anything about the

14 departure of that family mentioned before, Savic, Milos, and so on. He

15 was talking to me about one thing, and I was talking to him about another

16 thing, and that was to save the people who had been imprisoned on the

17 Muslim side. I said "gone," he said "ociscen." I cannot connect what

18 he's talking about to what I'm talking about. I know the reason I called

19 him.

20 There's something here in code, and I'm thinking about what it is

21 he's saying. I'm intervening for the family of Milos Savic - he was the

22 secretary of the Assembly - here. I'm speaking to him all the time.

23 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I have no further questions on the

24 intercept, as such.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

Page 24674

1 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

2 Q. Could we go, please, to the last intercept in this bundle. This

3 is P389, KID31492. It's a conversation between you and your brother on

4 the 10th of July of 1992. As far as the Defence are aware, this has never

5 been played to the Court or, indeed, commented upon.

6 Mr. Krajisnik, on the first page in the English we see that you

7 ask your brother -- and I'm clarifying -- and I'm summarising here - about

8 the fact you've heard some corpses were -- had been found, Serb corpses.

9 You asked him: Where are they?

10 And he said: Well, the Miljacka brought that down the Bosna

11 estuary, some of it even into the Bosna and so ...

12 You asked: Have they found ...

13 And he said: Well, yeah, they found it. They allegedly went

14 there on a shooting. I didn't see that, but I heard.

15 What's that a reference to?

16 A. This is a reference to a small river called the Miljacka which

17 flowed to Sarajevo and flowed into the river Bosna in the Rajlovac area.

18 As it says here, several corpses floated down this little river up to

19 Rajlovac, which means that they had been thrown into the water. They were

20 dead. They had been killed, and the corpses came from Sarajevo.

21 Q. Over the page we see a reference to someone called Torana. Who

22 was Torana?

23 A. Torana -- Zoran you mean. Can you just tell me where this is --

24 oh, no, Tarana, Tarana. This is a typo, Torana. This was someone who had

25 a video camera. He was supposed to film something, and he was killed

Page 24675

1 during the war. I think he was working in SRNA for the television -- or I

2 don't know exactly where.

3 Q. There is some reference a few lines further on to Radovanovic, and

4 your brother is then giving you some information about Radovanovic. Who

5 was Radovanovic?

6 A. Miroslav Radovanovic was supposed to be the commissioner for

7 Rajlovac, Ilidza, and I don't know what other place. He was appointed as

8 such. This is about him.

9 Q. And your brother seems to be telling you various things about him.

10 Why is your brother having to tell you things surrounding and to do with a

11 commissioner?

12 A. There's a telephone conversation where my brother tells me we have

13 received the decision, but Radovanovic has not arrived. Can you get him

14 to come? And I said I'll try. And this Miro was there, and he wanted to

15 put me in contact with him because he was having some kind of problem.

16 And I said: Leave that alone now. Let's talk about other things. And I

17 spoke to Miro very briefly, as can be seen here, because -- about a

18 certain issue because my brother wanted to inform me about the following.

19 A delegation from Rajlovac wanted to come to Pale, and my brother says

20 now: Miro thinks they shouldn't come. And here let him in consult you.

21 And I said: Miro, you settle this, you're the commissioner, and that was

22 the end of the conversation. I wasn't talking to him as a commissioner, I

23 was talking to him because of the contact with my brother. And he was

24 there, and he wanted to hear my opinion as to whether this delegation

25 should go to Pale or not.

Page 24676

1 Q. If we go to the last page we see that you said, towards the

2 end: "Such an agreement would be good, even if it became public, you

3 know. That there's talk of the negotiations beginning and so ... That

4 would be good. That would be useful.

5 Mirko: Because the reason why I'm telling you is that there is a

6 good reason to light up the people here, petitions are being collected,

7 and so.

8 Momcilo: Yeah.

9 Mirko: Yeah.

10 Momcilo: All right. That's fine. You go on and make the contact

11 and talk. That is not a problem I need to speak to."

12 What negotiations was there talk of beginning?

13 A. UNPROFOR, because there's an airport at Rajlovac, wanted to have

14 their helicopters there. The population thought they were going to occupy

15 the garrison and drive them out, so a petition was being signed against

16 this. The late Mr. Nikola Koljevic was talking with General McKenzie.

17 And there's another conversation about this, it's about the

18 dissatisfaction of the people. A tense situation had arisen. My brother

19 says it would be a good idea to have an agreement with the Muslim side,

20 and their representative was this Semso, because on our side there are

21 various people who are inflamed, meaning they could do something reckless.

22 And what was very important for us was to have peace. Different people

23 were spreading this information, saying: We are at war with the Muslims

24 and we shouldn't have any kind of local agreement with them, we should

25 simply wage war. These were not numerous, these people, they weren't the

Page 24677

1 decision-makers, but they were there. And now this Semso turned up, and

2 you saw when Mr. Sinisa Krsman was testifying here that there was always a

3 line between the Muslims and the Serbs and that was this Semso. At one

4 point it had been cut off because of the military activity. And now Semso

5 was asking whether they wanted an agreement on the cessation of

6 hostilities. And although I was not authorised to do so, I told them: Do

7 this and publish it, so that everybody will see it's possible to have a

8 local agreement rather than fighting.

9 I don't know what they did later on, but peace was maintained for

10 a long time. And I can say that the local people at Sokolje would not

11 have fought the Muslims, but then another shift would arrive from

12 elsewhere. And the local people would even tell the people from Zabrdje:

13 Watch out because next week it will not be us standing guard but some

14 people from elsewhere. And that's how more than two-thirds of Zabrdje was

15 taken by the Muslims.

16 Q. I'm going to move away from the intercepts, and what I would now

17 like to do is ask you about a number of Prosecution witnesses. By reason

18 of time restriction, I'm not going to be in the position, for the most

19 part, to put to you what these various witnesses have said about you and,

20 in particular, against you during the course of their evidence. What I'd

21 like you to do, Mr. Krajisnik, is give the Chamber a thumbnail sketch of

22 your assessment back in 1991/1992 of these various people, and I'd like to

23 begin, first of all, with Mr. Djokanovic.

24 A. I'm glad you asked about Djokanovic first. I know everything

25 Djokanovic said here before this Tribunal, and I can answer every

Page 24678

1 question -- or rather, with respect to every question I can tell you why

2 it's not correct. And I can point you to a document which will confirm

3 this.

4 Mr. Djokanovic first said that on the 10th of June he arrived in

5 Pale, and then that he stayed at Pale for a day or two. And he knows who

6 the members of the Presidency are and he says I was one of them. He

7 couldn't have known this because he wasn't there before the 10th of June.

8 And then he went out into the field and visited six municipalities where

9 he set up commissions and he returned. And around the 15th or 16th of

10 June he came back. He had been to Sekovici, Vlasenica, Zvornik, Bratunac,

11 and Skelani. And there are decisions showing that he was the president

12 and the others were members. In Zvornik he ousted the president of the

13 municipality, and then Mr. Karadzic restored him.

14 When he arrived on the 15th or 16th of June - he doesn't know

15 precisely when - he says that he told the leadership that terrible things

16 had happened in Zvornik, and he said he had told me this, too. On the

17 15th of June, in the minutes of the government where there was discussion

18 of the situation in SAO Birac and a delegation was sent to investigate --

19 you can find those minutes.

20 On the 30th of June, Mr. Djokanovic met Mr. Karadzic and

21 Mr. Mladic in Zvornik. And, had anything happened, he could have

22 discussed it with them, but he says nothing was discussed.

23 In Han Pijesak and later on in Zvornik, there was the supreme

24 military court. He could have reported any incidents to that court. He

25 mentions the Assembly where there was a session a year later, and I can

Page 24679

1 point you to the precise place, where as a member of the government he

2 came into conflict with a deputy from Zvornik. This deputy said that he

3 had accused him of genocide. He said, very decidedly, that it was not

4 true that there had been a genocide and that it wasn't true that the

5 Serbian people are genocidal. You can see that in the Assembly where he

6 is a deputy.

7 If he had wanted to establish something or correct something, as a

8 member of the government towards the end of 1992 he had the opportunity to

9 investigate everything through the Ministry of Justice and the MUP. He

10 could have investigated everything and established the truth. I guarantee

11 that he never told me a single thing, nor do I know anything about this

12 visit of his. He said that on the 10th of June or as of the 10th of June

13 he was under my jurisdiction, I was in charge of him. From the 25th to

14 the 27th of June you have a document where the late Mr. Koljevic signed a

15 decision for Mrs. Plavsic appointing her. He was in charge of

16 commissioners at the time.

17 What is true is the following: A man from a family I know arrived

18 from new Sarajevo. His name was Radan. I knew him, and he came together

19 with him. And he was saying that there were problems in new Sarajevo. As

20 I knew the man and Djokanovic was there, Djokanovic said to me: Would it

21 be a good idea, as I hail from Novo Sarajevo, from Grbavica, for me to go

22 there and find out what it's about? And I said it would be an excellent

23 idea for the two you to go and see what's going on.

24 After that, you have a decision signed by Mr. Karadzic where it

25 says "commissioner." It doesn't say "Djokanovic," but "at the proposal of

Page 24680

1 Mr. Djokanovic," and there were members of the commission. Allegedly he

2 was the president of the commission.

3 You remember Mr. Radomir Neskovic who says he doesn't remember

4 when he arrived in Novo Sarajevo. That was my role. Those were my only

5 dealings with Mr. Djokanovic. And I had another meeting with him. He

6 came with somebody from abroad. I have noted it down somewhere. I was

7 sitting there, and there was a man who was an acquaintance of his, and he

8 had brought him to see me. I had no other contacts with him.

9 Before the war he closely collaborated with Mr. Karadzic, as

10 president of the party, and you have a number of telephone conversations,

11 but he never contacted me. During the war he contacted Mr. Koljevic.

12 Mr. Koljevic gathered young intellectuals around him in order to

13 carry on academic discussions with him, and I think they discussed those

14 topics more than they discussed commissioners. Mr. Djokanovic, as early

15 as October, became an advisor to the late Mr. Koljevic. And there are

16 some minutes of the so-called Presidency signed by Momcilo Krajisnik as

17 the chairperson on the 9th of October, where you can see my signature and

18 the Presidency is supposed to have been there.

19 On the same date, Mr. Koljevic signed a decision that at a session

20 of the Presidency Mr. Djokanovic had been appointed his advisor. So that

21 session where I signed as the chairperson was not actually a session of

22 the Presidency because that topic was not discussed at all.

23 My conclusion is the following: This is an immature person, I

24 have to say that, overambitious. He is a person who was scared that he

25 would be held responsible for something. So for reasons that are unclear,

Page 24681

1 he started trying to find a way out, because he was in charge of all those

2 municipalities where terrible things happened. And I can show you all the

3 evidence to substantiate this, Your Honours, because I have gone into a

4 deep analysis of all this.

5 Q. I'd next like to ask you about Milan Babic, please.

6 A. The late Milan Babic. He is deceased so I will try to choose my

7 words about him carefully.

8 I don't know whether I met the late Milan Babic two or three

9 times. I never sat down with him. He said something which is completely

10 untrue, and that's that in late 1992 I was in Novi Grad, that's

11 Bosanski Novi, at some kind of Assembly meeting when Mr. Seselj was there.

12 Why is this important? I was not in Bosanski Novi. Mr. Pasic

13 said that, too, and everybody knows when this Assembly was held. It was

14 only a year later that this Assembly was held. Seselj was there at the

15 time, but not at the Assembly, and it's true that there was a joint

16 Assembly of the Srpska Krajina and the Republika Srpska.

17 But why is this point in time in 1992 so crucial? It's as if he

18 wanted to say when ethnic cleansing was carried out, as he says, Momcilo

19 Krajisnik was in Bosanski Novi. Mr. Seselj arrived, and together they

20 supported ethnic cleansing. That's how I understood his malicious

21 intentions. I wasn't there in 1992, I didn't know about the Muslims going

22 there, I wasn't there with Mr. Seselj, and I met Mr. Babic only a few

23 times.

24 Why was Mr. Babic so bitter about me, if you could see that?

25 Because the Serb delegation, including me, the people from Banja Luka,

Page 24682

1 Pale, and so on, were in favour of implementing the Vance Plan, that was

2 in early 1992, and he was profoundly opposed to it. We agreed with it.

3 Later, he was dismissed, and he was constantly trying to separate

4 off the Bosnian Krajina and to join up -- join it up with the Serb

5 Krajina, which would have gone contrary to the Vance Plan. We would have

6 been in trouble with our people who wanted to join the Serb Krajina but

7 didn't understand politics, they didn't realise that they would be

8 contravening two agreements and that this would be very counter-productive

9 for them. I cannot give you any further details about him or say anything

10 else. I can only guess what he said.

11 He said another thing that is very important here. He said that I

12 tried to persuade him to have the Ekavsi, E-k-a, Ekavsi, or the Cyrillic

13 alphabet introduced. He said the Serbian people speak Ekavsi, E-k-a,

14 Ekavsi in Serbia, and Ijekavski, I-j-e, in other parts. And when

15 Yugoslavia collapsed, in Bosnia-Herzegovina the language was called

16 Serbo-Croatian, so it was both Serb and Croatian. The Croats said: We

17 have our own language, and we're not going to call it that anymore. The

18 Muslims who didn't have a language of their own but spoke Serbo-Croatian,

19 they called that language with some modifications the Bosniak language.

20 So all that was left for us to do was to call our language the Serbian

21 language, and this was at the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina when demands

22 were made that three languages should be used, and we laughed about it

23 because it's the same language within different nuances.

24 So we called it the Serb language, and we said that the Ekavian

25 and Ijekavian dialects would be equal and that the Cyrillic alphabet and

Page 24683

1 the Latin alphabet would be used pursuant to the law. And he made use of

2 this to say that I was in favour of some kind of separatism, and this was

3 very improper, because everybody else did the same before the Serbs called

4 their language the Serbian language.

5 I don't know whether he said anything else. We met only two or

6 three times.

7 Q. The next witness I want to ask you about is Boro Bjelobrk. Much

8 of his evidence dealt with his assessment of the SDS in the years, or

9 months perhaps I should say, leading up to the war. Of course, you have

10 dealt with that in some detail during the course of the questions that

11 Mr. Stewart has asked you. But notwithstanding that, what comments do you

12 have about Mr. Bjelobrk?

13 A. Although I don't like to speak badly of people, with full

14 responsibility I can say that Mr. Bjelobrk is a communist. He lived in

15 the communist system, and he was privileged in it. Ideologically he was

16 bitterly opposed to any national parties. Why was he not equally opposed

17 to the Muslim national party with the same vehemence? Because in the

18 former system there was a quota system, and if a Muslim was at the head,

19 then his deputy would have to be a Serb or a Croat. So the ethnic make-up

20 was always taken into account, in every commercial enterprise, in every

21 institution, everywhere. The posts that belonged to the Serbs, even

22 though, as he says himself, was a Yugoslav -- he calls himself a Yugoslav,

23 although he's from a Serb family, he always held the post reserved for a

24 Serb everywhere.

25 Now that the national parties had emerged, it suited him to have

Page 24684

1 the Serbs in a minority somewhere, because as part of a minority he would

2 be able to take up the Serb post. When the Serb parties arrived, of

3 course other people would be holding those posts.

4 One thing he said here which is very important is that

5 ideologically he hated the Serb Democratic Party and the national parties.

6 Unfortunately, I don't want to go into private matters and tell you who

7 he's married to, but he had this resistance.

8 Your Honours, I have shown you what his error was. Once I was

9 left on my own in parliament. The Serbs deputies had left, and I voted in

10 favour of an item on the agenda, and later on the vote was against and

11 they needed one more vote for their item to be put on the agenda. And I

12 voted in favour, so their item was included in the agenda, thanks to my

13 vote. I was the only Serb from the SDS.

14 When the discussion was over, we counted the votes. There were

15 130, and there was one vote missing, and I said: I give them my vote, the

16 131st. When their item on the agenda came up for voting, we counted the

17 votes and there were 134, so my vote was not necessary for their item to

18 be adopted. It was a benign item. And even though it was imposed by

19 force, I said: I will now abstain. There's no need for me to vote in

20 favour.

21 Well, now he describes this as my duplicity. And before that all

22 the SDS deputies had left that Assembly meeting. They were very upset

23 because something that had been agreed beforehand had not been respected.

24 Everything he says about these territories are his own hallucinations. He

25 is a man suffering from ideological blindness. He remained in the central

Page 24685

1 part of Sarajevo, and he's constantly jockeying for position because there

2 are few Serbs there, so he wants to be appointed to various posts. Before

3 he used to be in the trade union. He just wants to have a post and

4 privileges and, unfortunately, he does have that in the Muslim part of

5 Sarajevo.

6 I have had very little contact with him. They had another

7 president of the deputies club, also a Serb, Miro Lazovic, who is no

8 better than him; on the contrary, they're the same. But it was Miro

9 Lazovic I had contacts with. I rarely contacted with Bjelobrk in those

10 groups, so to say.

11 If Your Honours remember, he gave an example. I was the president

12 of the Assembly, and he brought a trade union delegation for me to

13 intervene in Yugoslavia, in Belgrade, to have an invoice of theirs paid.

14 This has nothing to do with president of the Assembly, and they say that I

15 was hostile. But he was bringing these dissatisfied trade unionists in

16 order to turn them against me, saying: You see, here is this Serb who is

17 representing this group and nothing he said is correct.

18 I have even prepared a CD for Their Honours with the dates of the

19 discussions, and showing how the discussions were led. He complained

20 because I had had prolonged sessions, but I was trying not to have the

21 Assembly divided. There were pauses and so on, but that was my goal, not

22 to obstruct the work of the Assembly.

23 Q. Just clarify this. The CD you have just referred to, what's that?

24 A. I think that the Honourable Presiding Judge and the Honourable

25 Judge Canivell remember when I handed over three CDs to you and then you

Page 24686

1 returned them to me when Mr. Bjelobrk was being discussed and you didn't

2 really look at it. And I did that before the Honourable Judge Hanoteau

3 came. So that was returned and all of that is mentioned on those CDs, but

4 this is a long time ago.

5 Q. The next person I'd like to talk -- turn to, please, is

6 Mr. Kljujic. I have asked you a number of questions about him, and put to

7 you during the course of your review of some of the intercepts in which

8 you were a participant, assertions by Mr. Kljujic, and you have dealt with

9 those. In fact, earlier today you dealt with his assertion, for example,

10 that you were fully informed about ethnic cleansing that was occurring in

11 Bosnia in 1992.

12 A. Mr. Kljujic was interpreting that telephone conversation, and he

13 says this shows that Mr. Krajisnik knew about ethnic cleansing.

14 I would like to remind you of the following now. Mr. Kljujic said

15 here that he was the president of the state commission for establishing

16 war crimes, that is to say, war crimes committed by all sides. So he

17 didn't establish any of these and he wasn't involved in that. Truth to

18 tell, he was a member of the Presidency until the end of 1991 and then the

19 Presidency replaced him with Miro Lasic. And then he was returned yet

20 again because of Miro Lasic, because Miro Lasic had left the Presidency,

21 that is.

22 Mr. Kljujic was president of the HDZ, the Croatian Democratic

23 Union. All communications before the war, up to the war, that is to say

24 during the election campaign as well, he carried out at the level of party

25 president. He confirmed that himself.

Page 24687

1 As for my own contacts with Mr. Kljujic --

2 Q. Can I stop you. Before we get on to that, clarification please.

3 You said, I quote: "Mr. Kljujic said here that he was president of the

4 state commission for establishing war crimes, that is to say, war crimes

5 committed by all sides. So he didn't establish any of these and he wasn't

6 involved in that."

7 That's the end of the quote. What did you mean by: "So he didn't

8 establish any of these and he wasn't involved in that"?

9 A. That's not the way I put it, but it was similar, though.

10 Mr. Kljujic stated here that he was president of the commission

11 for establishing war crimes -- the state commission, that is, the state

12 commission of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was in Sarajevo.

13 During that time, since he headed this state commission, he was

14 supposed to establish what kind of crimes were committed against all

15 ethnic groups. I'm just giving an example. Today we have a list of

16 missing persons, and I know that he did not establish any crimes that had

17 been committed against the Serbs, not even against the Croats. He only

18 worked on seeing what crimes were committed against Muslims, if he did

19 anything at all.

20 And I said that he was there only until the end of 1992. For a

21 while he was replaced by Miro Lasic, and I don't know what he did after

22 that. He was not a member of that commission. And I said that I did not

23 have much contact with him and I did not really contact him or talk to

24 him. And it's not true that that meeting was held in my office the way he

25 represents it, where Stanic was and others.

Page 24688

1 In my office, there was this one chair, and there were two chairs

2 on the sides. It wasn't that three plus three people could sit there, so

3 there was sort of the president and a table and these two chairs. So you

4 could not really have three Serbs and three Croats sitting there. Anybody

5 can establish that; that's probably the way it is to this day. So it

6 could not have happened there, and I do not know what he's talking about.

7 Physically it was not possible. Maybe somebody else had a meeting during

8 one of the breaks. I don't know about that, I'm not aware of that, I

9 don't remember that, but it certainly wasn't in my office.

10 Q. I'd next like to move on to Miroslav Deronjic.

11 Part of his evidence dealt with events within the SDS in October,

12 November, and December of 1991. Can I -- I'm not going to ask you about

13 that and don't really want you to comment on his assertions in that regard

14 because you have dealt with that in another part of your evidence. What

15 contact did you have with Mr. Deronjic in 1991 and 1992?

16 A. I cannot remember contacts with him. I mean, I knew of him, and I

17 had a very good opinion of Mr. Deronjic at the time, but I cannot remember

18 whether I had any contact with him at the time. I did not have any

19 contact with him as a member of the appointments commission because it did

20 not meet and work. I did not have contacts at the Main Board because

21 sessions were not being held. Possibly when there was some joint meeting

22 of all that he was present there, but I did not talk to him

23 specifically -- or perhaps I talked to him a minute somewhere, but I

24 cannot remember. His activities were primarily party-based, and he talked

25 to people who had duties within the party.

Page 24689

1 I can give comments regarding his statement, if you're interested.

2 Q. Well, I want to ask you specifically about something he did say in

3 the course of his evidence on the 19th of February of 2004 at page 1223,

4 and that related to the opening of a corridor between Bratunac and

5 Kravica. And he said that that would have to have been approved by the

6 top leadership of the Republika Srpska. And he said it was a Mr. Zekic

7 who gave approval. Can you comment on that?

8 A. I must say that I do not remember this particular wording, but I

9 remember that he referred to Zekic as his mentor and his main connection

10 between him and the leadership of Republika Srpska. That was to say that

11 he got some sort of message from the late Mr. Zekic that this action could

12 be carried through. I cannot confirm that. I cannot deny that, but I can

13 indicate something illogical that he said and that brings into question

14 the authenticity of his decision. He said that he was the connection for

15 A and B variants, Variants A and B, and that a Serb municipality of

16 Srebrenica was not established by Zekic because he was not organised.

17 But I would like to remind you of the document you have.

18 Mr. Grkovic's diary of the 20th of December, where it is written,

19 recorded, a decision came in on the establishment of the Serb Assembly of

20 Srebrenica. That is to say, that he did not even know that Zekic had,

21 before that, before these Variants A and B were there, that he had

22 actually established already this Serb municipality of Srebrenica.

23 I'm trying to say -- well, I have to make the following comment.

24 He said many things here in order to make his own situation easier,

25 especially referring to people who died or who he believes will never come

Page 24690

1 before this Hague Tribunal. Remember that he said that 50 kilometres from

2 the Drina left and right were supposed to be Serb territory. If it were

3 to be 50 kilometres, then the border would have to be by Tuzla. Only an

4 insane person could say that. It isn't even 50 kilometres from the Drina

5 to Tuzla. So half of Bosnia would have to be taken in order to have this

6 Serb belt.

7 You also saw the public denial of Rajko Dukic after his statement

8 here that he never talked to him about this, but I really cannot comment

9 on any other details. I mean, I'd have to engage in guesswork.

10 Q. When did you become aware of the massacre in Glogova that

11 Mr. Deronjic being part of?

12 A. During the war, I never knew of this crime in Glogova. I met him

13 and he never told me that there had been a massacre there. Quite simply,

14 as he had put it, Glogova had been liberated; everybody was saying that.

15 I had never heard of this story of his before. I don't know whether he

16 met anyone at that meeting, but I assure you that if any crime had been

17 committed, people concealed that and they didn't want to brag about it.

18 On the contrary. An investigation would have to be carried out in order

19 to establish whether somebody had done something or not. When I saw what

20 this was all about here, I was surprised as everyone else who was present.

21 I just have to tell you one more thing. There is a record here of

22 the court questioning him as an accused person. During the war, I got

23 this later, Zekic's father accuses him of having betrayed Zekic, and in

24 that record he talks about Glogova, about what happened. I got that only

25 the other day. That is to say, that somebody knew about that. He talked

Page 24691

1 about all of this that happened in Glogova during the war, but I -- or

2 someone else from our ranks -- well, I didn't know about it.

3 In that statement that he made during the course of the war, he

4 probably stated that to some municipal court or I don't know who.

5 I have this document here, I can present it. It was only the

6 other day that I got this document. I never had it before.

7 MR. JOSSE: I'm in the Chamber's hands, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it depends what -- Mr. Krajisnik, could you

9 briefly describe what that document is you're referring to. Is it a

10 statement? Is it -- first of all, from what date is it?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a record, Your Honour, of a

12 court hearing of the different parties involved. Perhaps I even have it

13 here with me --

14 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A record --

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- what's the date. Clear question. Please stop

17 explaining what the document is. If you know, please tell us; if you

18 don't know, I'll put my next question to you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, I'd have to look it

20 up. But I think it was during the course of the war.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please look it up, and if you have the dates tell us.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll look it up straight away, and

23 if I haven't got it here, I'll bring it in tomorrow.

24 MR. JOSSE: I was going to suggest that Mr. Krajisnik does this

25 overnight and --

Page 24692

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine.

2 Mr. Krajisnik, you're invited to do that overnight, and then it

3 will not take court time. So if you find it this evening, you could tell

4 us tomorrow in three lines what exactly it is.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

6 MR. JOSSE: Yes, I'd like to go into private --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You've got me so scared that I don't

8 know -- well, all right. I'll find it tonight and I'll bring it tomorrow

9 morning.

10 MR. JOSSE: I'd like to go into private session, please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 24693











11 Pages 24693-24697 redacted. Private session.















Page 24698

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Mr. Krajisnik, there's one small issue, I wouldn't say a very

11 important one, but which we'd like to address in your absence, you being

12 the witness at this moment. So therefore, I'd like to invite you to be

13 escorted out of the courtroom so that I can address the matter. Yes.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I just ask you something?


16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You said about this CD --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you were about to ask me something,

18 that's at least how it was. You said: "Could I just ask you something?"

19 And then I said: "Yes."

20 And then it was interpreted --

21 Could you please put your earphones on again? Mr. Krajisnik, at

22 this moment in the transcript I read that you said to me: "Could I just

23 ask you something?"

24 I said: "Yes."

25 And then your words were translated as: "You said about this

Page 24699

1 CD --" and there it stops. So if you want to ask us something, I wished

2 to give you an opportunity to do so, but I didn't hear any question there.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I looked at this CD -- or rather,

4 this DVD yesterday. It has to do with that interview of mine, but there

5 is another segment there that's -- that is important, and you said that

6 they should look at it in the meantime and that it should be admitted into

7 evidence here. It has to do with the Presidency.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I invited the parties to look at it and to

9 answer the question, so I take it that we -- we'll hear from either Mr. --

10 either the Prosecution and Defence or both by tomorrow. Would that be

11 a --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I just say something? It's

13 minute 49, seconds 15. It's going to make it easier for them to find it.

14 The 49th minute, 15th second states exactly what the members of the

15 Presidency are.


17 I take that that's --

18 MR. STEWART: Yes, we have no [indiscernible], Your Honours.

19 Your Honour, can I just say that this -- we're not intending to be

20 unnecessarily difficult. We don't know what the issue is. It's taken us

21 slightly by surprise that Mr. Krajisnik's being asked to leave. Your

22 Honour, we would just like to reserve our position formally in relation to

23 that, because it's something we don't --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's not a big issue.

25 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 24700

1 JUDGE ORIE: But nevertheless to be dealt with in the absence of

2 Mr. Krajisnik. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what you're going to say.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, the issue is -- it's -- I don't think it's

7 a very --

8 Mr. Josse, we have some of these informal translations of

9 documents which were introduced very quickly. We just wanted to let you

10 know that it's not entirely clear to the Chamber what purpose they serve

11 exactly. For example, if I just take one example, D223, which bears the

12 signature of Mr. Davidovic says something about a car which was inspected,

13 apart from -- even if we would follow what Mr. Krajisnik said, that it

14 must have been seized, although the document doesn't say that. We have

15 some difficulties in understanding exactly what the purpose of this is

16 when I do remember well Mr. Davidovic said something about vehicles which

17 were seized and then sold by I think members of the MUP or the SUP; I

18 don't know exactly what it was. Here this document tells us that the

19 vehicles should be registered for purposes of the Serbian MUP. I think

20 Mr. Davidovic never said anything of the kind, that those vehicles should

21 not be used for official purposes or whatever. He said something about

22 personal profit taken by -- by members of the MUP -- I think it's not all

23 clear in my recollection, but something that they sold them to their own

24 profit.

25 So, therefore, such a report is hanging, more or less, in the air.

Page 24701

1 To some extent, it would confirm what Mr. Davidovic said. If you would

2 interpret such a document as saying: Here you see that if they were later

3 on sold, that Mr. Davidovic himself contributed to that course, but that's

4 of course an interpretation.

5 We have not fully understood the -- the true meaning of these

6 documents and how we should interpret them. We just wanted you to -- to

7 let you know so that if you have to spend time on further examination, or,

8 Mr. Stewart, that you would at least be aware that it did not fully come

9 to an understanding within the Chamber. And we leave it up to you whether

10 it's important enough to pay further attention to or whether you would

11 say: Well, it's perhaps not of that vital importance for the case, that

12 even if we would not understand every single bit of this part of the

13 evidence, that it would not damage your case. We leave that to you, but

14 we did not want to say this in the presence of Mr. Krajisnik because it

15 might have caused him to explain a lot of things on which you, as counsel,

16 might think that there are other matters more important perhaps to deal

17 with.

18 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, speaking about it for myself without

19 speaking to Mr. Stewart --


21 MR. JOSSE: -- first of all, let me say I take Your Honour's

22 comments in the spirit in which they were clearly intended, i.e., to be

23 helpful, and I'm grateful.


25 MR. JOSSE: I'm bound to say it comes as great concern to me that

Page 24702

1 this has been done in Mr. Krajisnik's absence. I don't really follow why,

2 but perhaps we can think about this overnight --

3 JUDGE ORIE: The main purpose being --

4 MR. JOSSE: Because I'm not sure there is any provision for it

5 all. In a common law system, Your Honour, it would be quite impossible,

6 let me say.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, you know that we are not in a common law

8 system.

9 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, if finally there's nothing -- I think, as a

11 matter of fact, we just discussed whether it should be on the DVD that

12 Mr. Krajisnik receives tomorrow, but he will receive it, but at the end of

13 his testimony. What we wanted to avoid is that we get here a clash of

14 what is most important to use Defence time for.

15 MR. JOSSE: I see.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I certainly take the position that we'd rather not

17 have such a battle here and rather use the time as efficiently as

18 possible. And we still, as you may have noticed in the past, we still

19 think that counsel has an important, if not very important, if not a

20 decisive role in prioritising these matters.

21 MR. JOSSE: Well, I'm sure both of us take this, as I've already

22 said, in the spirit in which it is intended, and we're grateful to the

23 Chamber for these words.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If you find it important enough to make us further

25 explore the common law tradition in this respect, we are willing to do

Page 24703

1 so. We're not encouraging you to do so, not because we think it's

2 improper to do, but in view of the matter at stake and in view of how we

3 usually deal with matters in the presence of Mr. Krajisnik. I would be

4 surprised, but I can -- it could be a mistake on my side that it has not a

5 great bearing on what happens at this moment.

6 MR. JOSSE: With respect, I agree, but we will reserve our

7 position. I would like to talk to Mr. Stewart about what has just

8 happened.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. If there's any need, we'll hear from

10 you further.

11 I apologise to the technicians and the interpreters, where I

12 thought that I had improved my record in late finishes, I'm afraid that

13 this is a major fall back on that.

14 We'll adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, same courtroom.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.15 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of

17 May, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.