Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24981

1 Wednesday, 31 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

8 number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, yesterday we have not always

11 assigned numbers to documents that were new which were not already in

12 evidence. I think there are three or four of them. I would like to

13 invite Madam Registrar to just briefly mention them and to assign numbers

14 to them. Madam Registrar. If you need more time for preparation, we'll

15 do it at a later stage.

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I appreciate that opportunity.


18 MR. TIEGER: I think there may be a few more than that, in fact.

19 I think the -- quite a number of the excerpted Assembly -- post-1992

20 Assembly sessions I think may need a new number as well.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the whole of the -- of the minutes of those

22 sessions are not in evidence yet?

23 MR. TIEGER: Correct.

24 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Acquaviva had produced a very useful schedule

25 which Madam Registrar could use. She very helpfully distributed it to the

Page 24982

1 parties. It could be done at a later stage, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We could do it at a later stage.

3 Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by

4 the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony, and

5 Mr. Tieger is invited to proceed.

6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. And in connection with the

7 issues just raised we'll try to liaise with the registrar as well to make

8 sure that all of those items are included.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes -- Mr. Krajisnik, you had some maps I think

10 you were talking about yesterday, and I think I invited you to bring them

11 and to give them to the parties so that they can see to what extent

12 they're useful to -- Madam Usher, let's see how many copies we have, and

13 may I have a look at it as well. But they should be distributed to

14 the ...

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I had three assignments

16 and I wanted to say something.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. Let's first, perhaps, look for

18 one second at the maps. I think some of them, but I'm not quite sure.

19 They look all very familiar. I take it that the parties will compare

20 these maps with -- at least map 9 with -- and I'm now talking from my

21 memory, D7 I think it is or -- and compare them and see whether -- see

22 whether it brings any new elements and to see to what extent it's -- would

23 assist the Chamber in receiving them and having them available as

24 evidence.

25 Mr. Krajisnik, this was the one, this was the maps. Second one?

Page 24983

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These maps were supposed to be our

2 response reflecting that we had accepted deviation from the factual

3 situation; that's the assignment you gave me. And from these maps you can

4 see to what extent we accepted to deviate from the factual situation;

5 that's why I brought this map from 1993, the time of that discussion to

6 which the questions of the Prosecution relate. And second, a statement of

7 mine, an ugly statement about Muslims, was presented here and you gave me

8 the transcript to review it. I found the contribution in which that was

9 mentioned before mind, and I wanted to present this because it really

10 sounded different from what it actually was like and created confusion

11 here. But it would be useful for everyone to take the transcript of the

12 24th Session dated the 8th of January, 1993.


14 Yes, Mr. Krajisnik, please. You said you'd like to draw your

15 attention to a certain portion of the minutes of the tape-recording of the

16 24th Session. Please do so.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let us begin from my statement, my

18 contribution, 29th page, the last numbers are 934. Let us just look at

19 what I said, and then we will see what it relates to, if you allow me to

20 read it.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, 934 appears to me to correspond to the

22 bottom of page 78 and page 79 of the English.


24 We've got it in front of us, Mr. Krajisnik.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here: "Here we had a

Page 24984

1 suggestion here. For us to say that it's a religious sect of Turkish

2 orientation because then we would create a rift or that would create a

3 rift in the Muslim world. That means that I picked up somebody else's

4 idea to name it a religious sect." And even further on you can see that I

5 am repeating other people's words and then it goes on.

6 For instance, Saudi Arabia and some other Muslim countries believe

7 that Turks are newly fangled Muslims who eat and drink the same things as

8 others. And let me draw your attention to one more thing. Mr. Kupresanin

9 spoke before me for the second time and he spoke after the conclusions

10 that we had drawn from those deliberations. He also introduced a new

11 topic, namely that Muslims are not a nation, but instead they were Serbs.

12 That was very dangerous because his meaning was that all of Bosnia was

13 Serbian. All the territories taken by Serbs that were formerly Muslims'

14 belonged to Serbs. And I'll tell you exactly the page where somebody else

15 said the same thing. Page 18, and the last numbers are 922. That's the

16 contribution of Kupresanin -- I'm sorry, I gave you the wrong reference.

17 Sorry, it comes a little before that. Page 15, 021149219, Mr. Savo Corda.

18 I'll give you the first -- the last two lines. He says: "We also know

19 that Muslims are no nation. No way. I would always stress in

20 negotiations that they are not a nation. Europe should know that. They

21 are no ethnic community. They are our outcasts on which we cannot agree

22 and we cannot reconcile with it."

23 And then he goes on saying some ugly words that I won't repeat.

24 You can read for yourself. That comes long before the conclusions. It's

25 completely outside the discussion about the Geneva paper.

Page 24985

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

2 MR. TIEGER: The Court seems to be following that reference based

3 on the numbers given, but I can't find it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm trying to find it. What I see is that Mr.

5 Krajisnik was referring to the B/C/S version. I could follow it to that,

6 but I have not found yet the corresponding pages in --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll wait. I'd rather wait. I

8 think it is very useful to read this.

9 MR. TIEGER: I think that's page 60, Your Honour, in the middle of

10 the page: "We also know that Muslims are not a nation. I would always

11 stress that during the negotiations. They are degenerates," et cetera.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think the first reference to what Mr. Savo Corda

13 said might not be -- oh, that's -- yes, I apologise for -- yes. We found

14 it.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's line 10, approximately. Let me

16 just tell you that he mentioned it was a creation of the communist party,

17 that we were the oldest nation, et cetera, or one of the oldest nations.

18 18th page. The last numbers of the ERN number are 922, Kupresanin

19 speaking.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That would be on page 64 and on from the bottom, I

21 take it?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right. On this page, it's the

23 second full paragraph when he says: "We didn't need the war in Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina ..." or "the war was not necessary in Bosnia and Herzegovina."


Page 24986

1 MR. TIEGER: No, in fact he's addressing himself to: "We say that

2 the war was not necessary in Bosnia and Herzegovina ..." And then he

3 says: "The war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was necessary ..." And then he

4 continues to explain why.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right. That is so. I want to point

7 out that his contribution was completely contrary to the subject under

8 discussion and it was very dangerous. I don't want to bother you with it,

9 but he says that all of it is Serb land, that Muslims were a minority,

10 that a war needs to start in Serbia. I'm trying to go through it as

11 briefly as I can. And then I stress, please go to page 24, the last

12 numbers are 928.

13 MR. JOSSE: If there's another version of the 23rd Session that's

14 available, we'd be very grateful because I've handed mine now to

15 Mr. Sladojevic in trying to assist and find the place rapidly. If there

16 isn't one, don't worry.

17 MR. TIEGER: It's the 24th Session, and let me look very quickly

18 to see if I can assist.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It looks -- let me just have a look.

20 MR. TIEGER: Just a coincidence, but here it is.

21 MR. JOSSE: Very grateful. Page 72 is what Mr. Sladojevic tells

22 me in relation to this last extract.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we found that. Page 72, Mr. Krajisnik.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am speaking here. Let us just

25 look at one thing in the second paragraph.

Page 24987

1 Since there were misunderstandings a moment ago concerning the

2 press release, let me give just one explanation. During the session of

3 the club of deputies, we intended to make a break and adopt the

4 conclusions which would be adopted at the session in Geneva. I just want

5 to say that there was a club of deputies session that also deliberated

6 about these things. That's why I said there were several references to

7 this. And conclusions are presented here related only to the continuation

8 of the Geneva negotiations, about the Vance-Owen Plan. And when I

9 finished, it's again on page 23 and 24, the last number is 9929, all of it

10 is in the vein that the conference to which most of the MPs were opposed

11 should continue.

12 And now towards the end of the page when we were about to vote --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps first I indicated in the B/C/S original we

14 find two pages 24. So the numbering of those pages is a bit confusing.

15 So when you said, Mr. Krajisnik, that you refer to 23 and 24, you are

16 referring to 24, 1, and 24, 2. Please proceed.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right. I saw that last

18 night, too. Until page 29. When I was about to present the conclusions

19 for voting, and it was with great effort that we agreed on those

20 conclusions to be put forward at the Geneva Conventions, because everybody

21 was against accepting any kind of talk about the Vance-Owen Plan,

22 Kupresanin comes up again with his insistence that Muslims are not a

23 nation, that all the territories we had taken away from them are Muslim

24 [as interpreted] anyway. So I say: All right. There were all sorts of

25 suggestions. Let us decide whether Muslims are a nation.

Page 24988

1 In fact, the Assembly is not competent to decide whether Muslims

2 are a nation or not, but I didn't want to deny it. I just wanted those

3 conclusions to be ready for the conference. Read here, please. He says

4 that this issue had been discussed at various sessions on many occasions,

5 and it was completely preposterous for the Assembly to decide whether

6 Greeks are Greeks, whether French are French or not.

7 MR. JOSSE: Page 78 and 79 in the English.


9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So there were two theories. One,

10 that Muslims are Serbs, and the other one that Muslims are not a nation,

11 both of them being dangerous. So at this point I just said: Come on,

12 vote. Are Muslims a nation or not? But those are not originally my

13 words. You will see that all of this had been said at some Assembly

14 session by somebody else or maybe at sessions of the club of deputies.

15 And it was with great effort that we finally adopted those conclusions

16 with which to go to the meeting in Geneva.

17 I reviewed this for the first time. I don't have in my possession

18 any transcripts after 1992. You can see from what I said that I was

19 actually angry about those proposals and about this totally inappropriate

20 theory that we should decide whether Muslims are a nation or not. But it

21 all had to do with maps. It had to be done before the maps.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you are, as a matter of fact,

23 responding to something that has not been said, and that's not for the

24 first time, therefore I draw your attention to it. No one said that you

25 invented those words; it's only -- your attention is drawn to the fact

Page 24989

1 that you spoke those words, not that you were the first one to speak them.

2 Second, no one has suggested that what you did, that the Assembly was

3 competent to do what it did.

4 I think, Mr. Tieger, that you put questions and you confront Mr.

5 Krajisnik with what the Assembly did. I have not heard any suggestion in

6 your questions that they were competent to do so, so therefore you are at

7 this moment responding to what you consider perhaps dangerous or whatever.

8 But you are more or less engaging in a discussion with an unknown

9 interlocutor who said you invented those words and you spoke them. Only

10 the second portion that you spoke those words, and you did not deny that

11 in your testimony, and now you explain that it was not you who was the

12 first to speak those words or to come up with these ideas. That is, as

13 far as I am concerned - and I'm looking to my colleagues - that is not in

14 evidence. No one ever asked you, no one ever has drawn your attention to

15 you being the one who came up with these ideas or invented them. The only

16 thing that was asked of you, the only thing our attention was drawn to,

17 was that you spoke those words.

18 And, Mr. Tieger, unless I'm mistaken, let's -- let's move on at

19 this moment because you are -- you are entering into --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- a debate which, perhaps it's not a clarification

22 only. You are responding to what has not been suggested, until now at

23 least. Of course, if Mr. Tieger comes with any quotation which tend to

24 establish that you are the first one to invent these words, then of course

25 it would be different.

Page 24990

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, please. It was my

2 understanding yesterday that --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Fine what you've drawn. You've drawn our attention

4 to it at this moment. I'm just telling you that it's important not to

5 have a kind of an internal debate. Yes. One more line and then I'll give

6 Mr. Tieger --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say what the assignment

8 was that you gave me?

9 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't give you any assignments. You said: I

10 would like to draw your attention to --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

14 It was my understanding that that is what I had said and that that

15 was my opinion. But it's not my opinion. I said something that somebody

16 else had said, that's the only difference, and it's a big difference,

17 Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you repeat the words, Mr. Krajisnik, and if

19 you do not refer to that: This is the opinion of someone else, people

20 might think what you expressed, and if you say, "you're right," that

21 that's your opinion. Because it's difficult to understand otherwise that

22 you're expressing at that moment your opinion about what someone else

23 said.

24 Let's continue now, Mr. Tieger.

25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 24991

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger has now an opportunity.

2 I see that we received the B/C/S version of the -- of a statement

3 of Mr. Karadzic.

4 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Krajisnik has provided that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Is that a different one --

6 MR. JOSSE: Well, I'm going to check that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: It looks very much as if this is a conversation

8 between Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic.

9 MR. JOSSE: Your --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. It's a statement, the one

11 from yesterday, the one that was in dispute, its integral version of the

12 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I would like it to be admitted into

13 the agenda and could the OTP please give me the statement made by

14 Mr. Filipovic? I would like that to be admitted into agenda -- oh, sorry,

15 not the agenda but the evidence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Krajisnik, we'll have a look at that.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: First we'll leave it to the parties. If the parties

19 think it of any use to have something in evidence, if they think it would

20 assist the Chamber in making its determinations, they'll do so. If,

21 finally, the Chamber would like to see certain documents, then we'll ask

22 for it.

23 Mr. Josse, it's not in evidence. I can't read it anyhow, apart

24 from that it says [B/C/S spoken]. I leave it to you --

25 MR. JOSSE: We will investigate that at the next break. Could I

Page 24992

1 just briefly mention the map, Your Honour --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

3 MR. JOSSE: Before it gets --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Before you finish with that. When I said would you

5 please check whether it's not 7 -- 7 or 7 (B) -- of course, I now notice

6 it is 1993, where 7 and 7 (B) are of 1992, a part of the Cutileiro

7 discussions, whereas it seems that these maps have been introduced as

8 preparing maps for the Vance-Owen Plan.

9 MR. JOSSE: I think that's right and we have checked very quickly.

10 I'm in Your Honour's hands as to whether Your Honour wants that map from

11 Lord Owen's book to be given a D number.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll first wait for the parties whether the parties

13 think it of any use to give us details on what happened in 1993. If the

14 parties think it's not important, then of course during the examination of

15 the witness it could be that the Chamber gets interested in receiving

16 that.

17 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

23 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, when we adjourned yesterday we were discussing

24 Dr. Karadzic's speech at the Bosnian Assembly in mid-October 1991. I had

25 suggested to you that -- three things. That Dr. Karadzic was threatening

Page 24993

1 the Muslims with physical extinction, with annihilation, that

2 Mr. Filipovic understood that to be the case, and that finally you were

3 aware that that was what Dr. Karadzic had in mind. We dealt with

4 Mr. Filipovic's view on that yesterday. I'd like to turn this morning to

5 what Dr. Karadzic meant.

6 Now, we have in evidence, Mr. Krajisnik, four intercepted

7 conversations involving Dr. Karadzic during the course of that session

8 which ran from, as I understand it, about 10 October to 15 October. Those

9 are conversations that took place on October 12th, two of them; October

10 13th; and October 15th. I'm going to draw your attention in particular to

11 one of them, but before I do let me mention three of the others. On

12 October 13th, in a conversation with Momcilo Mandic, that's P64A, P154A,

13 and P92 part, Dr. Karadzic said: "And that is the way Croatia took

14 appeared we know what is going to happen here. That has got nothing to do

15 with Karadzic's or anyone else's decision. We know exactly what is going

16 to happen" --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down, thank you.

18 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Mandic said: "Definitely, that is clear to

19 people in Belgrade."

20 Dr. Karadzic: "In just is a couple of days Sarajevo will be gone

21 and there will be 500.000 dead. In one month Muslims will be annihilated

22 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Number of Serbs will be reduced and Croats

23 will be the only ones to profit because they will keep their

24 municipalities."

25 Mr. Mandic: "They asked for it."

Page 24994

1 Dr. Karadzic: "They, they."

2 MR. Mandic: "They started all this."

3 On the 12th of October, Dr. Karadzic had a conversation wan

4 unidentified man, that's P64A, P154A.

5 Therefore -- and it's part of what Dr. Karadzic said: "Therefore

6 the Muslims know what it is. It is hell of which 5, 600.000 of them will

7 disappear. I've just spoken to my wife. Our estimation is that there

8 were between 40 and 60.000 dead in the war in Croatia" --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- do they have the same numbers I'm just

10 checking. Because you two times referred to 154A. It could well be the

11 case. Let me just find them.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would be a good thing if I had

13 those documents and if I could look at them.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll first -- or is this a series of --

15 Mr. Tieger, I am a bit lost as far as the numbers are concerned, but I

16 must admit on my computer I've got only P64A, 154, but A then stands for

17 the -- usually for the transcript and .1 stands for the English

18 translation. And P64A, 154, I've got a conversation between Mr. Karadzic

19 and Mr. Vukic.

20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I have those available in tabs.


22 MR. TIEGER: We can look at the particular item.


24 MR. TIEGER: If the Court wishes. The first conversation is found

25 at tab 30.

Page 24995


2 MR. TIEGER: And of course we will try to more specifically

3 identify the pre-existing exhibit number.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, since you promised us more or less

5 yesterday, an index to the later parts of the -- that might assist, but --

6 if we are now talking about tab 30, if you say it's an unidentified

7 person, is that what you said? At least it was identified by the name of

8 Momo.

9 MR. TIEGER: Right. I think the second one I mentioned was the

10 unidentified one, Your Honour, from October 12th.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The first one is -- yes. And the second one we find

12 under tab?

13 MR. TIEGER: The second one I mentioned with Dr. Karadzic, an

14 unidentified man, is at tab 29.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Tab 29, thank you.

16 MR. TIEGER: And particular references are with respect to the

17 conversation on October 13th found at tab 30 at page 2 of the English, the

18 last -- toward the bottom, approximately the fifth box from the bottom.

19 And in the B/C/S at 03219653 at the top. And the reference at tab 29, the

20 conversation of October 12th between Dr. Karadzic and an unidentified man

21 is found in the English at the third page, approximately the sixth box

22 down. And in the B/C/S at 03219989, approximately the fifth box from the

23 bottom.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

25 MR. TIEGER: And I'd like to address Mr. Krajisnik's attention to

Page 24996

1 one more intercept on the same subject and direct him to particular

2 portions of that intercept. That's found at tab 28, a conversation

3 between Dr. Karadzic and Gojko Djogo on 12 October 1991.

4 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, the first reference I'd like to bring your

5 attention to is found at page 3 of the English and 02128923 of the B/C/S,

6 second page of the intercept. Dr. Karadzic says: "Well, he's craze --

7 they're totally crazy, you know, they".

8 Djogo says: "Where... what's he thinking, to start a war in

9 Sarajevo? Is he crazy?"

10 Dr. Karadzic: "He's, I think that they, exactly, they should be

11 thrashed if they start a war, they will ... they ... they'll disappear."

12 "There will be rivers of blood."

13 Karadzic: "They will disappear, that people will disappear from

14 the face of the earth if they start now. Our offer was their only

15 chance. Even that was too much, what we offered them, but ..."

16 The next reference which I'd like to bring your attention is found

17 at page 7 of the English and at last four pages 8428 in the B/C/S at

18 approximately the middle of the page.

19 Dr. Karadzic: "No. They don't understand... that the Serbs are

20 at a boiling point, that Serbs are slow to ignite, but that they burn for

21 a long time, they don't have a clue, they ... I can't tell our, I mean,

22 our Muslim partner, for crying out loud, don't you understand that Serbs

23 will fight for their state, not to lose their state, down to the last

24 man."

25 And then he continues about seven boxes down: "They -- they have

Page 24997

1 to know that there are 20.000 armed Serbs around Sarajevo. That's insane.

2 They will -- they will disappear" --

3 A. I haven't found it, 28 -- I'm so sorry.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Neither did I, Mr. Tieger, apart from the fact that

5 the transcript says 8428, where we are in the 89 series.

6 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, I thought I read 89, Your Honour, I'm

7 sorry.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know, just to correct. I do not see any

9 reference to the 20.000 there.

10 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry. That's my apologies. It's 8927 and in

11 the middle of the page.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There we find the 20.000. So you started --

13 yes.

14 Mr. Krajisnik, have you found it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, thank you very much.


17 Q. "Uh-huh, they have to know there are 20.000 armed Serbs around

18 Sarajevo. That's insane. They will -- they will disappear. Sarajevo

19 will be a karakazan /black cauldron/, where 300.000 Muslims will die.

20 They're not right in the head. I don't know -- now I will have to talk,

21 to talk to them openly. People, don't screw around. There are 3, 400.000

22 armed Serbs in BiH. What are you thinking of? Plus there's the army and

23 the hardware and everything. Do you think you can just secede like

24 Croatia? And they are literally going. Yesterday they told us that these

25 negotiations of ours between the Assembly session, that a sovereign Bosnia

Page 24998

1 means an independent Bosnia, if Yugoslavia doesn't."

2 And finally the last reference I want to bring your attention to

3 in that intercept it's found at page 9 of the English and page 8928 of the

4 B/C/S, just slightly lower than the middle of the page. It's the -- it's

5 that portion, Mr. Krajisnik, where Dr. Karadzic speaks and immediately

6 afterwards Djogo says: "Da, znam."

7 Dr. Karadzic speaking: "We will not force them to do anything but

8 they don't have a way to carry out a secession. I think that this is

9 clear to the army and clear to everyone. It will be a real bloodbath.

10 This time the army won't use only two planes anymore of the 500 it has.

11 It will use 20 for each assault and that would be it then. If Bosnia goes

12 up in flames, Sandzak will follow and Kosovo, you know."

13 Djogo: "Yes, I know."

14 Dr. Karadzic: "No, there will no longer be."

15 Djogo: "No, no."

16 Karadzic: "He's talking about with Europe."

17 Djogo: "It will be terrible."

18 Karadzic: "Europe will be told to go fuck itself, not to come back

19 until the job is finished."

20 And perhaps one more, with the Court's permission. At the middle

21 of page 8 in the English and the -- 8927 in the B/C/S.

22 Dr. Karadzic says: "We're not banning them from establishing

23 certain," "certain," it looks like.

24 Djogo: "And then in the end they'll enter Banja Luka" --

25 And then Karadzic says: "Yes, to Ozren, to Doboj, anything. He

Page 24999

1 can rule over half of Sarajevo, Zenica, and half of Tuzla and that's it.

2 It's finished. Gracanica and the small -- but he -- they don't understand

3 that they'd be up to their in their necks in blood and that the Muslim

4 people would disappear. The poor Muslims would disappear who don't know

5 where he's taking them, or at least taking the Muslims."

6 Mr. Krajisnik, do you dispute that Dr. Karadzic, in addressing --

7 in making his address at the Bosnian Assembly in mid-October 1991 was

8 warning the Muslim people or threatening the Muslim people that if they

9 move forward on plans for independence, that they would face physically

10 annihilation?

11 A. Mr. Karadzic was rightly cautioning the Muslim people. The words

12 are too strong. Now, whether they can constitute a threat is something

13 that only the Muslims can feel. I understood this to be a cautioning and

14 a plea for them to give up on independence. You're right. The emphasis

15 was that the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina in an unconstitutional way

16 can lead to grave consequences, and he used these words that the Muslims

17 can disappear. Not biologically, I don't know, but that's the way he

18 spoke, meaning that as a people, as a nation -- well, psychologically they

19 will be broken.

20 I cannot interpret the psychology either of the Muslims or of

21 Mr. Karadzic. I can just tell you how I took this speech. I am

22 confirming to you that, yes, this was a warning that was strongly worded

23 and that had to do with the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina in an

24 unconstitutional way. But there is a correction here. Maybe you didn't

25 notice. Sorry about that. You said here 02 --

Page 25000

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not catch the number; it

2 was too fast.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And Karadzic says: "We do not

4 prevent them from setting up detachment," "odred," but it's not "odred,"

5 it's "odredje," which would be "odredjene," except if the word was not

6 fully printed out, it would be "odredjene," which is certain something, a

7 certain this, a certain that. "Odredj" is a military formation,

8 detachment, but the word he actually wanted to use here was "odredjene."

9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat the page number because the

10 interpreters could not hear it. The last three digits of the B/C/S would

11 do, Mr. --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 8927, where Radovan Karadzic is

13 speaking, as quoted by the Prosecutor. That is one, two, three, four,

14 five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, box number eleven. "We, we

15 are not preventing them from setting up 'odredj' ..." I assume he was

16 saying "odredjene teritorijas," certain territories, it couldn't be

17 "odred," detachment.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's not of vital importance at this moment,

19 although it's a detail, Mr. Josse. If there's any reason to revisit this

20 matter, then we'll hear from you.

21 MR. JOSSE: Absolutely.


23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


Page 25001

1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you were aware before Dr. Karadzic made this speech

2 that he believed that the threat of devastating -- well, the threat of

3 Serb action in response to Muslim moves forward independence was something

4 he was contemplating telling the Muslims? In other words, as a way of

5 deterring the Muslims from moving forward toward independence, Dr.

6 Karadzic was considering saying to them essentially what he said on

7 October -- in mid-October 1991 and what he said to the interlocutors in

8 his telephone conversations around the same time.

9 A. Yes, he talked to me and he used that word. And I said to him:

10 You shouldn't say the Muslims are going to be annihilated. Everybody's

11 going to be annihilated, we'll all be annihilated, exactly, in this

12 telephone conversation. You can find that telephone conversation.

13 Q. Actually, the telephone conversation's in front of you if you need

14 to look at it. But let me just ask you a question or two about what you

15 just said.

16 A. I know my own conversation, that's why I'm saying he said that to

17 me in one telephone conversation: They will disappear. And I said don't

18 say they will disappear, we'll all disappear. It was in this one

19 particular telephone conversation. But I did not think that he would

20 speak this way at the Assembly meeting. I can tell you why I think he

21 spoke this way, in case you're interested. I think it was wrong. He

22 shouldn't have put it this way. I agree, and I think that he himself

23 repented that -- about that later.

24 Q. Well, I had thought you already told us what you knew about

25 that -- about Dr. Karadzic's remarks in the mid-October Assembly during

Page 25002

1 the course of your examination-in-chief.

2 A. No, no -- well, perhaps I didn't say it, but it would be very

3 useful to you. Only 15 days before that, at this same Assembly, we

4 reached a conclusion that no one will impose any solutions on anyone, and

5 Mr. Karadzic was terribly angry one all of a sudden they wanted to impose

6 a solution in an unconstitutional way. I understood his statement as a

7 warning, but it was not a good thing at the time, and certainly it was not

8 exactly well measured and he shouldn't have spoken that way. That's what

9 I think. I think if somebody asked him about it now, if he's to be honest

10 about it, that is what he'd say. But that's it, any other people, too.

11 Q. Well, I wasn't focussing on the extent to which Dr. Karadzic's

12 remarks were well measured, but let's be plain about this. Dr. Karadzic

13 was upset and angry about what he considered to be continuing moves by the

14 Muslims toward independence, and he told them in no uncertain terms: You

15 continue to do this and you face annihilation at the hands of the Serbs.

16 That's it in a nutshell, isn't it? Whether it was well measured or not.

17 A. I don't think that's the point, with all due respect,

18 Mr. Prosecutor. He was scared and angry, and he used big words, totally

19 baseless as they were, but he didn't speak about annihilation, as I

20 understood it. It was not a good statement, like many other statements

21 were not good. But we had reached an agreement with the other side before

22 that, and when that agreement fell through, then he said what he said in

23 resignation using words like: You will disappear, et cetera. At that

24 session, the commission had worked five days to develop that agreement,

25 the agreement was accepted and then fell through. I'm just telling you my

Page 25003

1 impressions with the best intention of telling the truth, and of course

2 everyone is free to interpret what they read.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, this brings me to a point of course

4 everyone is free to interpret matters as they want. I mean, we now for

5 quite some time are now discussing what interpretation should be given to

6 certain words. And to be honest, to go into a long debate again and

7 again, it's clear now that Mr. Krajisnik often takes a more favourable

8 interpretation, more favourable in terms of whether there were any bad

9 intentions, yes or no, and it doesn't come as a surprise that the

10 Prosecution interprets these speeches differently. To use too much time

11 on that -- of course, it's good to establish that Mr. Krajisnik had a

12 different interpretation, saying he didn't use the words "annihilation,"

13 but it's also clear that there's also a lot of words about bloodshed, et

14 cetera, and if Mr. Krajisnik says: Of course this is not about biological

15 annihilation, then I don't know how to interpret "blood" anything else

16 than in biological terms. Of course you can say it's exaggerated and no

17 one will, I think, deny that emotions go higher and higher people are now

18 using words which they would not have used if they were less emotional at

19 that time. But so -- it's only of limited use to do this exercise for all

20 of the sessions we still have in front of us.

21 MR. TIEGER: That's not my intention, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

23 MR. TIEGER: And if I may say, with respect. First of all, I take

24 the Court's words to mind, of course, and it's not surprising, as the

25 Court noted, that in many instances I can anticipate Mr. Krajisnik's --

Page 25004

1 the interpretation that he will offer. But what can also be relevant, of

2 course, is the interpretation that is offered in the context of the events

3 at the time and in the face of all evidence.


5 MR. TIEGER: And in some instances the Prosecution seeks to do

6 that. I fully accept the Court's guideline.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me give you a one-liner. I hate to do it, but a

8 lengthy discussion on whether it was a warning or a threat is not

9 something that really assists the Chamber. We have one very factual

10 question on tab 30.

11 Mr. Krajisnik, you were -- it was put to you that there was a

12 conversation between Mr. Karadzic and Momo on the 13th of October, 1991.

13 That is a Momo who seems to have just returned from Belgrade, where he

14 wanted to visit his son; a Momo who says that he went to Han Pijesak on

15 Friday and that he had a meeting with the armies, the federal SUP,

16 Gracanin was there. Is that you or ...

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not me, it's Mandic. There was

18 Mandic, Zepinic, Delimustafic there, and the others. It's the MUP of

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina and Delimustafic and Zepinic were there.

20 JUDGE ORIE: So this conversation at tab 30, Momo is Mandic and

21 not you?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Before I make my comment,

24 I'll indicate to the Court I'm moving on from that topic.


Page 25005

1 MR. TIEGER: But just to make it clear and I'm sorry if there was

2 any ambiguity about that. This is not a debate or was not a -- the point

3 was not focussed on any distinction between warning or threat, which I

4 can --

5 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. I just gave it as an example of

6 how, while interpreting, you can spend a lot of words on matters that --

7 that would not really clarify much.

8 MR. TIEGER: I agree and that certainly wasn't intended to be the

9 focus.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, at the risk of one-liners.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honour, just add

12 something in relation to this question? I am not Mr. Karadzic's lawyer,

13 and I don't want to defend him, and it's not my job. I just want to say

14 that we had the entire text of his statement where he says: "Please, I'm

15 warning you." That's how I understood it. I'm not saying he didn't say

16 the Muslim people wouldn't disappear --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, the only thing you're now doing is to

18 continue what I just explained as being not very useful and not very

19 helpful.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, during the course of your -- during the course of

23 your examination-in-chief you were asked about, among other things, the 18

24 October 1991 meeting of the Deputies' Club at which Dr. Karadzic advised

25 the assembled members that a team made up of the leading men of the party,

Page 25006

1 the government, and the Political Council has been working day and

2 night. "I have decided to impose a state of emergency in the party.

3 Please inform the others that the party is working in emergency

4 conditions."

5 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, that state of emergency that Dr. Karadzic

6 announced he would impose three days after the remarks to which we've just

7 directed our attention was, in fact, imposed and the cadres of the SDS

8 were duly alerted. Correct?

9 A. I've explained this already in one of my responses, but I can

10 repeat. Specifically, it was Novi Travnik, Zepce, and some other places

11 where the state of emergency was introduced, but it boiled down only to

12 duty service, as far as I know. And Mr. Karadzic said what he said in

13 response to Mr. Djokanovic, who said that we should go to war. He said it

14 to calm the tempers of the audience who heard that. That's what I said

15 previously. You can check it on the transcript. There's a response from

16 Novi Travnik and the SDS describing what they had done in response to his

17 call, et cetera.

18 Q. Well, first of all, Mr. -- well, let me develop that a little

19 further. First of all, at the time of the Assembly session at which --

20 which we've been speaking about, as a general matter the party was in a

21 state of alert and people were calling in to find out if there were new

22 instructions arising from the situation. That's generally true, right?

23 A. Yes. All personnel of Serb ethnicity, whether members of the SDS

24 or not, were anxious to know what they should do because the memorandum

25 and the platform that had been adopted illegally were a terrible shock to

Page 25007

1 the Serbs. You're right.

2 Q. Okay. And like Mr. Tintor, found at tab 37 --

3 MR. TIEGER: And I think we'll need a number for that,

4 Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

6 MR. JOSSE: Well, wouldn't it be better, Your Honour, to do that

7 after the last --

8 JUDGE ORIE: We could do that and then have a chronological order

9 rather than anything else.

10 Madam Registrar, you're invited to include this on the list you

11 are preparing for assigning exhibit numbers.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.


14 Q. On the first page on the English at the bottom and the second page

15 of the B/C/S, Mr. Krajisnik, you'll see the portion to which I want to

16 direct your attention. This is Mr. Tintor calling the SDS party asking

17 first for doctor -- for the doctor, who's not in, and then indicating at

18 the portion I just indicated: "Fine. All right. I just want to see if

19 there are any new instructions. So nothing then."

20 So like Mr. Tintor in this intercept, it's correct that not only

21 people were, as a general matter, anxious to know what they should do

22 because the memorandum and platform, according to you, had been illegally

23 adopted but were calling in to the party to find out what steps, if any,

24 should be taken at that point?

25 A. I did not witness that, but I can confirm that the entire

Page 25008

1 infrastructure on the Serb side was there, members and nonmembers

2 discussing what to do because it was a dangerous moment that Serbs were

3 frightened of. It was not a simple, regular step, the memorandum and the

4 platform, it was completely unconstitutional, and that has been proven.

5 Q. And then Dr. Karadzic prepared and had disseminated the state of

6 emergency. If you'll turn to page 40 -- tab 40, excuse me. And on the

7 first page beginning slightly below the middle in the English and further

8 toward the bottom in your version, Mr. Krajisnik, Dr. Karadzic, after

9 saying earlier: "Put it like this: Send to all the committees, the

10 municipal committees," states or begins to apparently dictate or direct

11 the text of this.

12 "In view of the statutory authorisation, I hereby declare the

13 state of emergency."

14 A few lines down: "I hereby declare the state of emergency of the

15 SDS."

16 And then continues on to the -- in the middle of the second page

17 in English and the second page of your version at about -- for you,

18 Mr. Krajisnik, about three-quarters of the way down: "Besides other

19 measures, you will be informed about the measures of the state of

20 emergency on a daily basis. And the first measure is," and Miljana

21 says: "Go on."

22 "Permanent sessions, everyday sessions, everyday sessions of

23 municipal committees and 24 hours a day, duty hours."

24 Mr. Krajisnik, you have no reason to assert, do you, that that was

25 not -- that Dr. Karadzic had said anything other in this conversation than

Page 25009

1 to ensure that the state of emergency was prepared and made known to all

2 SDS municipal committees?

3 A. He practically informed everybody that he had introduced the state

4 of emergency, specifying what it consists of. So you're right. He

5 dictated this paper that was to be sent to all boards, all committees,

6 introducing state of emergency, round-the-clock duty service, and

7 indicating that other instructions would follow. Whether, indeed, any

8 instructions followed, I don't know, but you're right. He specified hear

9 what the state of emergency consists of.

10 And one more thing. State of emergency, because of what happened,

11 not because of what was about to happen, not because the Assembly would be

12 proclaimed but because of what happened on the 14th of October.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, for the benefit of the registrar, this

14 is an intercept of -- the mentioned item was an intercept of October 17th,

15 1991, between Dr. Karadzic and Miljana. That's found at tab 40 and we'll

16 need a number as well.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It will be added to the list Madam Registrar is

18 preparing.


20 Q. And turning quickly to tab 45, Mr. Krajisnik, this is a

21 conversation of 19 October 1991, between Jovan Tintor and Mr. Krunic. And

22 at the fourth page of the English at the bottom, and the last page of your

23 version, Mr. Krajisnik, in B/C/S, Mr. Tintor states: "Well, we need to --

24 the situation is now -- I can tell you it's -- the state of emergency is

25 declared, you know, in the party also and all that."

Page 25010

1 Krunic: "Yes, I know, this guy told me yesterday."

2 Mr. Tintor: "Yes, we should work on regionalisation with the" --

3 And Krunic says: "Yes, sure."

4 First of all, Mr. Krajisnik, that's a reflection of the

5 dissemination of the state of emergency beyond the two municipalities you

6 mentioned earlier - correct - that you mentioned Zavidovici and Travnik?

7 A. No, no, I said that this was an example of responses from those

8 two municipalities as to how they understood the state of emergency. They

9 introduced round-the-clock duty service and they were waiting further

10 instructions, but here I see what Mr. Karadzic had dictated and it's

11 certain that everybody received it -- or maybe somebody didn't receive it.

12 Q. And in terms of what the municipalities understood, by way of the

13 declaration of the state of emergency was, as noted by Mr. Tintor, that

14 regionalisation should be intensified or moved forward, among other

15 things?

16 A. I assure you, I guarantee, that everybody at the level of

17 municipality understood this as they pleased, as it suited them. And

18 everybody interpreted this instruction from Mr. Karadzic according to

19 their specific situation. The instructions were not even necessary, if

20 you take into account how shocked people were by what happened on the

21 14th. I know that the surprise of the people was enormous and it was a

22 great problem. Every municipality did whatever they thought best. People

23 were scared out of their wits.

24 Q. Well, in terms of the information and instructions being

25 disseminated from the top levels of the SDS to the cadres below, you had

Page 25011

1 an opportunity to discuss during the course of your examination-in-chief

2 the 26th October Sarajevo SDS order. You looked at the during the course

3 of your examination, but it is found at tab 49, if we need to look at it.

4 And if I understood you correctly you suggested that it might have been

5 Mr. Brdjanin extrapolating from or expanding on what Dr. Karadzic had said

6 at a meeting, rather than reflecting the position of the SDS leadership

7 and the actions that Dr. Karadzic wanted to see taken?

8 A. Yes, I said that. That's what I thought. I don't know what they

9 were saying, but I assumed that he expanded. There are lots of illogical

10 things said here that were not eventually done, and they were absolutely

11 not appropriate to the moment.

12 Q. There was a speech given by Dr. Karadzic in November of 1991

13 concerning the plebiscite. That's found at tab 3.

14 A. I don't have tab 3, I'm sorry.

15 MR. TIEGER: Could that be provided back to Mr. Krajisnik then.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I took some things back

17 yesterday, and I am afraid I've left them there.


19 Q. Let me quickly bring your attention to a couple of the things

20 Dr. Karadzic said and ask if you recall that speech. At page 6 of the

21 English and page 00270634 of your version, Mr. Krajisnik, Dr. Karadzic

22 says: "I'm telling you whatever Bosnia we have one day, no Muslim

23 foundation shall ever be laid in Serb areas and Serb villages whether or

24 not you import Turks because we will instruct Serbs not to sell land to

25 Muslims."

Page 25012

1 He goes on to address that issue further down the page.

2 A. Can you tell me at which line I can find that?

3 Q. I believe you can find the portion I just read to you at --

4 A. Just a minute, please.

5 Q. Sorry. That portion actually begins at the bottom of page 0633.

6 A. Oh, yes.

7 Q. And continuing on to the next page of your version but the same

8 page in English, page 6.

9 "The world will understand when we tell them that we will not

10 allow the demographic picture to change, either naturally or artificially.

11 No way. Our territories are ours. We may be hungry, but we will be

12 there," and then he continues a couple of sentences later.

13 "You must not sell land to Muslims, you must not, because this is

14 a fight to the finish, a battle for living space."

15 First of all, my question first, Mr. Krajisnik, is if you recall

16 your presence at this speech of Dr. Karadzic in Sarajevo shortly before

17 the plebiscite. And I can indicate that your name and Mrs. Plavsic and

18 other Bosnian Serb leaders are mentioned throughout the speech.

19 A. I attended also one meeting discussing how to preserve the

20 country. I don't remember attending this might, but I can respond to your

21 question regarding these words of Mr. Karadzic. I am familiar with this

22 position.

23 Q. I'm not directing my -- the reason I brought that to your

24 attention is to see if you have any specific recollection of your

25 attendance at this -- during the course of this fairly lengthy speech of

Page 25013

1 Dr. Karadzic --

2 MR. JOSSE: I don't know whether my learned friend has any idea

3 where this speech was delivered. That might help the witness.

4 MR. TIEGER: I indicated Sarajevo. That's as specific as I can

5 be.

6 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]


9 Q. And I asked you that, Mr. Krajisnik, because if you'll look to the

10 last -- latter portion of the speech at page 9 of the English and page

11 0637 of your version --

12 A. Yes, I found the page. Could you just tell me which line it is,

13 if that's not a problem, because it's barely legible here.

14 Q. You'll want to look to the -- what would roughly be the beginning

15 of the last third of that page and see the name "Brdjanin" mentioned.

16 A. In one place I see: "Everything that Brdjanin wrote," is that

17 what you mean?

18 Q. That's precisely it.

19 Dr. Karadzic says: "You -- you, presidents of municipalities, you

20 have to do this job. You and especially if the army instructs you to do

21 it, no one else, no official. You and no one else. Because you are

22 presidents of the National Defence Councils and you are commanders of your

23 towns. And also in Krajina, especially where the war is going on,

24 everything that Brdjanin has written for you. Usually there are forgeries

25 but this is not a forgery. All that Brdjanin wrote to you, apply

Page 25014

1 everything. We are at war. They are attacked us. We are at war."

2 So there Dr. Karadzic is making clear that the -- well, first of

3 all, do you have any doubt that what Dr. Karadzic is referring to in

4 connection with what Brdjanin wrote to you is the 26 October Sarajevo SDS

5 order that Brdjanin signed?

6 A. At that time -- well, I mean, if I were listening to these words

7 now I wouldn't know what Brdjanin wrote and I could not react. And I

8 don't know whether that's it or whether it's something different. But I

9 can put this together, what you showed a few minutes ago and what Brdjanin

10 signed is probably what this refers to. But even now if I were to look at

11 it and if I were to hear it, I couldn't say when I didn't attend a

12 meeting. It would be hard for me to interpret why some things were

13 referred to there, when in fact the war was still far away from us. He is

14 saying here: We are at war, but he is referring to Western Slavonia;

15 that's Croatia.

16 Q. Okay. And he's urging all the assembled people, and especially

17 the presidents of municipalities, to implement what Brdjanin has provided

18 to them. Correct?

19 A. Well, as far as I can see, that's what's written here, but I

20 really don't know whether it pertains to that or something else. It was

21 probably this, but I don't know. I didn't know about this Brdjanin

22 document then, so I couldn't say. But I saw it when I came here, to The

23 Hague Tribunal or, rather, The Hague prison. And when I reacted to this

24 thing by Brdjanin, I hadn't read this, so I could not realise why it was

25 written the way it was. And that is why I said what I said.

Page 25015

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock.

2 At the same time, Mr. Krajisnik, the question was quite clear and

3 simple: Was he referring to the document we just saw. Your answer is

4 also quite simple: I don't know because I had no knowledge at that time

5 of that document. Then the next line, from what I understand should have

6 been: If I would make an inference, and then it's clear to us already

7 that there are no facts, that you find it probable that the reference was

8 to that document. Three, four lines, that's all, and we spent ages on it.

9 Mr. Tieger, you're also invited to perhaps put questions in such a

10 way that we get the short answers. It's also a matter of technique of

11 questioning.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you are absolutely

13 right, and you know how hard it is when you sit here and you get carried

14 away. I'm so sorry. I tried to explain something. I wished for you

15 never to be in a position to sit here and to try and explain things. I'm

16 so sorry. I'm trying to be of assistance; it's not that I'm trying to get

17 things even more complicated. I'm so sorry.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not blaming anyone; I'm encouraging to have this

19 examination --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- more efficient.

22 We stand adjourned until 11.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

Page 25016

1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like to turn next to the 3rd Session of the

3 Bosnian Serb Assembly, which you discussed at length with Mr. Stewart

4 during the course of your examination-in-chief. That was the -- that was

5 held on December 11th, 1991, and as you described in your

6 examination-in-chief, that was the session at which there was discussion

7 about both the establishment of ...

8 A. Is that the 11th of December. Right?

9 Q. Correct.

10 A. Thank you.

11 Q. As I was indicating, that's the session that you discussed in some

12 detail earlier at which there was discussion about both the establishment

13 of Serbian Municipal Assemblies in Serb minority municipalities and

14 discussion by various deputies about regionalisation. You recall that, I

15 take it?

16 A. Yes, I recall this session. Please go ahead.

17 Q. And you had a -- you answered some questions by His Honour Judge

18 Hanoteau about what the deputies were proposing and what was radical about

19 it, and you described the distinction between the establishment of Serbian

20 municipalities in Serb minority -- Serbian Assemblies in Serb minority

21 municipalities and regionalisation.

22 The -- and in addition, your counsel pointed you to and you

23 described various portions of the Assembly session when the discussion

24 turned to the proposal to establish Serb Assemblies in those minority

25 municipalities and when the discussion turned to regionalisation. Your

Page 25017

1 position was that you advocated the establishment of Serb Assemblies in

2 Serb minority municipalities in contrast to and in opposition to the

3 radical efforts by some of the deputies to promote and further

4 regionalisation. Is that essentially it?

5 A. All of what you said is right. Just a small correction, please.

6 The item on the agenda was the decision on establishing Municipal

7 Assemblies in areas where Serbs were a minority, and then the question of

8 regionalisation was inserted by different people into that same item and

9 that was a completely different issue. It was not radical, it was

10 something that was quite different from the item that was actually on the

11 agenda. But it is true that some people did advocate regionalisation.

12 You're right, yes. And they were challenging this decision. They didn't

13 want to accept this decision on the establishment. First there was this

14 decision, and then there was a recommendation.

15 Q. Well, were you for or against the -- what you described as the

16 radical attempts by the deputies to advance regionalisation?

17 A. Well, my opinion was that we were talking about an item on the

18 agenda that had to do with this recommendation to establish municipalities

19 where Serbs were a minority. And now if you're asking me if I was in

20 favour of regionalisation as a political response at that point in time,

21 yes, I was in favour of that, because that was a response to the

22 unconstitutional conduct of this - what do you call it? - the Muslim side.

23 So as a political response, yes, but that was not the item that was

24 actually on the agenda. And I can just remind you of one more thing. On

25 the 25th of January --

Page 25018

1 Q. No, no, no --

2 A. Sorry, I'm sorry.

3 Q. And in fact during the course of that discussion various people

4 assured those who were talking about advancing regionalisation during the

5 course of the discussion on the establishment of Serb Assemblies, that

6 those two things in fact complemented each other and were not in

7 complicate. Correct?

8 A. Well, some people were saying that but I don't think they

9 persuaded anyone but later on we passed a decision or a recommendation to

10 establish municipalities because people were confusing the establishment

11 of municipalities with establishment of Assemblies and these are two

12 different matters all together. When you establish a municipality,

13 that's regionalisation, but when you establish an Assembly, that is not

14 regionalisation. So territory, that's a municipality, and the Municipal

15 Assembly is a body. And the recommendation is to establish Municipal

16 Assemblies. That is what I said then by way of distinction.

17 Q. Yes. The distinction you're drawing is fully understood,

18 Mr. Krajisnik. What I also want to be understood is that you were

19 assuring the deputies that there was no conflict between the two and that

20 the establishment of Serb Assemblies in minority municipalities was not

21 in any way in conflict with regionalisation, which would continue.

22 A. Yes, yes, it does not impede regionalisation in any way; you're

23 quite right. The establishment of Serb municipalities where Serbs were a

24 minority does not impede the continuation of regionalisation if we opt

25 for regionalisation because these are two different notions.

Page 25019

1 Q. Okay. So you weren't upset with any of the deputies were

2 promoting the idea of regionalisation; you just wanted everything to be

3 done in the particular order of the agenda and you wanted everything

4 focussed on one item at a time. That's basically it.

5 A. I wanted to work on the basis of the agenda. You're right on

6 that. To discuss this decision which later turned into a recommendation

7 to establish Municipal Assemblies where Serbs were minority, not to mix

8 apples and pears, not to mix regionalisation with that question.

9 Q. And in fact, regionalisation was underway and was being pursued

10 at the time of that Assembly. Correct?

11 A. Well, if you look at the record you will see that it was not

12 underway and that the main argument of the opponents of this

13 recommendation was that we hadn't even completed regionalisation and that

14 it's not functioning and that we're doing that, we should be doing that

15 now, not to give recommendations to establish Municipal Assemblies.

16 That's what it says in the minutes. It was there on paper and there were

17 attempts, too, but it did not actually operate in the field except in the

18 Krajina up to a point. That is in these minutes. Mr. Kasagic said that.

19 Q. The SAOs, the autonomous regions, had been verified at the 2nd

20 Assembly Session on November 21st, 1991. Correct?

21 A. You're right. That's right, yes. Yes. It was only then that

22 they had been verified.

23 Q. And although, as you indicated, there were people who were

24 dissatisfied with the progress of regionalisation, there were those who

25 had been more active and more successful. For example, at page 15 of the

Page 25020

1 English of this session and page SA024952.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That was one of the occasions on which you were trying to clarify

4 for the deputies that you wanted to deal with these issues one at a time.

5 And you said: "Only municipalities where Serbian delegates are a minority

6 should form Assemblies, as this republic Assembly of ours is, so as to

7 exercise certain rights. I think this is the source of the

8 misunderstanding. Veselinovic spoke about regionalisation, the

9 rounding-off of territories, like Mr. Vjestica and others are doing."

10 And that was a reflection of your understanding that Mr. Vjestica

11 in Bosanska Krupa had been making more progress than some of the others?

12 A. My position here was, as far as what Vjestica was saying is

13 concerned - now whether he actually did this or not, I don't know - but I

14 was trying to explain to Veselinovic that that was what regionalisation

15 was. I was trying to say before this session on the 21st that in fact he

16 carried out some referendum and reached decisions on the annexation of the

17 regionalisation. Annexation is something different from regionalisation.

18 So I took this example and wanted to explain it to Veselinovic who wanted

19 regionalisation, he didn't want the recommendation.

20 Q. Another example of that annexation could be found in the comments

21 of Mr. Kupresanin at page 26 of the English and page 39 of the B/C/S. And

22 I think -- who said the following: "In Bosanska Krajina we have the

23 following situation. We have vast territories, special in Prijedor where

24 over 70 per cent, even up to 80 per cent is Serb territory. The

25 plebiscite has shown us accurately which territory is ours and in

Page 25021

1 accordance with the plebiscite we have to annex this territory. The

2 situation is similar in Bosanska Krupa also, where there are few Serb

3 inhabitants, but about 80 per cent of the territories belong to the Serbs.

4 We must include that territory, too, and form a Serb municipality."

5 And that's a similar example, Mr. Krajisnik, isn't it?

6 A. Yes. He's talking about municipalities, to establish Serb

7 municipalities, not Assemblies. Well, I can say that Mr. Kupresanin

8 invited Bihac, Cazin, and everybody else to join them in the Krajina.

9 There was this article about that. He wanted to have the entire Krajina

10 to be complete, and that includes Muslim municipalities, and I can

11 document that for you if you wish.

12 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour.

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I hadn't mentioned previously

15 that the formatting of the cover page sometimes created a problem. I

16 didn't know if --

17 JUDGE ORIE: It's always minus one, Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER: Okay.

19 Q. And in fact, Mr. Miskin, at that same session, gave a lengthy

20 address about regionalisation. And I think you'll find that at page 30 of

21 the English and page 024980 of the B/C/S, SA024980. It begins, continuing

22 for quite a while --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, now you are adapted to the new system

24 because minus one gives us a problem, though. Please proceed.

25 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. That may have been one of

Page 25022

1 the instances where they are actually not precisely one page off, or,

2 you're right, I may have adapted earlier.

3 Q. And at page 36 of the English -- excuse me. Page 32 of the

4 English and SA024983, Mr. Miskin indicates after a discussion of what

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina would look like if it stayed within Yugoslavia

6 notes that: "If Bosnia and Herzegovina divided into regions and if it

7 were to cease to exist as a single republic, then the autonomous regions

8 would comprise the territory of the republic."

9 And he finally ends after his lengthy description of how

10 regionalisation was progressing and its purpose at page 36 of the English

11 and SA02 --

12 A. 51? 51, towards the bottom of the page?

13 Q. No, if you -- oh, you're looking at the particular pages. I'm

14 referring you to --

15 A. No, no, the interpreter was wondering.

16 Q. SA024988 and at page 36 of the English Mr. Miskin indicates,

17 following his address: "The principle is known, so there you are,

18 gentlemen, get to work."

19 And that was both the efforts undertaken by Mr. Miskin to prepare

20 his address, the presentation of his remarks to the Assembly, and his

21 concluding comments were a reflection of the ongoing role of

22 regionalisation. Is that right?

23 A. Yes, yes. This is a report of the commissions. That's a second

24 item on the agenda, and he was president of this commission that dealt

25 with regionalisation. So this is the second item on the agenda.

Page 25023

1 Q. Now, at the same page Mr. Miskin made the following remarks. And

2 it's page 36 of the English, as I have it here, and for you,

3 Mr. Krajisnik, found at SA024989.

4 "Given the conditions of war in the country and the very

5 precarious situation in BiH, we believe that in all the regions and in the

6 entire BH detailed contingency plans should be elaborated in the event the

7 Serbian people has to defend itself against various enemies."

8 Now, in fact, Mr. Krajisnik, such detailed contingency plans and

9 preparations were prepared, weren't they?

10 A. I'm not aware of this plan except for what Mr. Kapetina testified

11 here, if that's the same thing, but I'm not aware of that plan. This is a

12 report of Mr. Miskin as to what should be done in December 1991. Maybe a

13 plan was proposed, but I'm not aware of it.

14 Q. Well, perhaps this is a good time to talk about the Variant A and

15 B document which you testified about on the sixth day of your testimony.

16 A. It would be good to have this document before me, if possible.

17 Q. Well, I'm not going to ask you about the details of the document,

18 Mr. Krajisnik.

19 A. All right then.

20 Q. At least not at this moment. But I do recall that you indicated a

21 general lack of familiarity with the document, suggested that the document

22 was not important in any way, and noted in particular with respect to

23 Mr. Cizmovic's explicit reference to the instructions at the 6th Session

24 on January 26th that you "simply didn't note [Realtime transcript read in

25 error "know"] it" because you were focussed on the main topic of that

Page 25024

1 day --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, could you help me. The tenth day of

3 Mr. Krajisnik's testimony --

4 MR. TIEGER: The sixth day.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The sixth day, then I understood it wrongly.

6 MR. JOSSE: Could I ask my learned friend to repeat the words in

7 inverted commas.

8 MR. TIEGER: Yes, "simply didn't note it."

9 MR. JOSSE: Yes, n-o-t-e.

10 MR. TIEGER: Correct.

11 MR. JOSSE: It was mistranscribed, and is important.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The transcript now reads "know" where the words

13 were "note."


15 Q. So I thought it might be helpful, Mr. Krajisnik, to actually focus

16 the Chamber on the backdrop to the succession and to Mr. Cizmovic's

17 involvement in events up to time as well as your own and the events that

18 followed. Now, we've heard considerable testimony, of course, about the A

19 and B document, and in particular its distribution around the time of the

20 4th Bosnian Serb Assembly Session on the 21st of December, 1992. You also

21 testified about that session and events that occurred during the course of

22 that session. That was a session at which the Council of Ministers was

23 established, the individuals ministers were selected and the ministerial

24 council itself was established. Correct?

25 A. No, the ministers were not selected. The ministerial council was

Page 25025

1 formed instead from the ministers on the government Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina, just as Serb assemblies were formed for Serb assemblymen in

3 the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And if you want to know about

4 Cizmovic, I can give you a separate response about that.

5 Q. I'll be asking you specific questions so there won't be any

6 confusion about what I want to know about. In terms of the selection of

7 persons for the ministerial council, it wasn't simply the case, was it,

8 that persons who were -- who occupied a ministerial or a specific

9 ministerial post in the joint government became -- took an equivalent

10 position in the Bosnian Serb Council of Ministers. There was also some

11 concern about Mr. Zepinic expressed and you resolved that concern yourself

12 by proposing that Mr. Stanisic become a minister without a portfolio on

13 the Council of Ministers. Correct?

14 A. I don't remember, but I can give an explanation in response to

15 your question whether they held any positions or not. I don't remember

16 having explained about Zepinic. Maybe I did. If it's written there, then

17 I probably did, and I can explain why.

18 Q. Well, I was simply focussing, Mr. Krajisnik, on your suggestion

19 that the ministerial council was established exclusively by the existing

20 positions occupied by those individuals in the joint government. I

21 appreciate that that was generally how it worked, but I wanted to point

22 out at least this exception and that the establishment of the ministerial

23 council at least had some discretionary element. That's fair. Correct?

24 A. No, there were more and I can explain; however, my first answer is

25 accurate.

Page 25026

1 Q. Okay. And --

2 A. But maybe you want to know why my first answer is accurate.

3 Q. Your first answer being that for the -- that -- being that persons

4 who occupied a ministerial post in the joint government became members of

5 the Bosnian Serb Council of Ministers in an equivalent position. Is that

6 it?

7 A. That would not be a complete answer. Maybe I said that, but in

8 fact Serb personnel in certain ministries, maybe they were not ministers,

9 maybe they were assistant ministers or clerks at the ministry, in any case

10 that person was included in the ministerial council. Those were Serb

11 personnel in the ministries, not necessarily all ministers. And they were

12 all taken into the ministerial council, and I can explain about Zepinic in

13 particular.

14 Q. No, I appreciate that clarification. And I think, as you noted,

15 the discussion that took place in the Assembly addressed that issue or

16 reflects that issue.

17 A. Yes, yes. It was as item number 2 or maybe 3.

18 Q. Okay. And in addition, the Council of Ministers included a

19 coordinator for the autonomous regions, Mr. Cizmovic, and he was selected

20 as a member of the Council of Ministers in that post. Is that right?

21 A. He was elected coordinator either of the ministerial council or

22 coordinator of autonomous regions. We can check that in the papers. I

23 think he was coordinator of autonomous regions. Anyway, it was a

24 coordinating position. He may have been on the ministerial council, but I

25 think he was coordinator of autonomous regions.

Page 25027

1 Q. We'll look quickly at page 34 and 35 of the English and --

2 A. I'm sorry to give you so much trouble.

3 Q. And you'll find that at SA025131 through 5133 of the B/C/S,

4 Mr. Krajisnik.

5 A. Just a minute. Yes, I found it, if that's Jovo Mijatovic about

6 the commission.

7 Q. Mm-hmm. And he's reciting the decision on the appointment of

8 coordinators of activities of the executive bodies of the Serbian

9 autonomous regions and the Autonomous Region of Krajina on the -- at the

10 bottom of page 34 --

11 A. 34, yes.

12 Q. -- you indicate that the Assembly accepts the appointment of

13 Mr. Jovan Cizmovic as the coordinator of the governments of the Serbian

14 autonomous regions. And then on the following page in English and at --

15 A. Excuse me. It's really not on page 34. I really need to find it.

16 Q. Your page -- sorry, Mr. Krajisnik, I understand the confusion.

17 Your page is probably 5132. Just --

18 A. All right.

19 Q. And then on the subsequent page, there's simply a list of the

20 members of the Council of Ministers, including Jovan Cizmovic, coordinator

21 of activities of the governments of the Serbian autonomous regions.

22 A. Yes. Correct. Number 18.

23 Q. Okay. And I think you indicate at page 36, the following page,

24 just after the list of those persons and after Mr. Bjelosevic, and

25 Mr. Saric, and Mr. Knezevic speak, you explain, again at the bottom of

Page 25028

1 page 36 of the English and page 5136 of your version, Mr. Krajisnik, that

2 the Council of Ministers should be a kind of executive body of the Serbian

3 Assembly.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in connection with our earlier discussion you'll see if you

6 just read down slight --

7 A. I didn't find it. What I meant to say was that you are right. It

8 was, indeed, the function, the purpose, of the ministerial council.

9 Q. Okay. And just -- in connection with our earlier discussion about

10 Mr. Stanisic, you'll see at your page SA025136, the second -- well, that

11 first and second paragraph end at -- beginning at page 36, at the bottom

12 of the English. "If you agree, I would like to propose that we include

13 Mr. Mico Stanisic as well. Additionally I think we should emphasise that

14 all appointments and dismissals, including my post in the last

15 backbencher, excuse me my language, can be subjected to debate of an

16 accession. This is my proposal and I would like you to accept it."

17 So that's the -- at least one of the points in the session that

18 reflects Mr. Stanisic's selection to the ministerial council?

19 A. Yes. An MP proposed Stanisic instead of Zepinic or instead of

20 somebody else. I don't know. And he was on the city MUP of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina. So I proposed that this should be adopted, but there were

22 also suggestions to change a lot of other things, whereas we wanted this

23 pattern to remain, that only people in positions in Bosnia and Herzegovina

24 be included in the Council of Ministers.

25 Q. Now, on that same day, December 21st, you had a conversation with

Page 25029

1 Dr. Karadzic about the Council of Ministers and about Mr. Cizmovic. And

2 in that connection if we could turn to tab 59, and if we could look at

3 the -- at the bottom of page 2 of the English and in the B/C/S,

4 Mr. Krajisnik, at the top of 02079288.

5 A. Yes, I found it.

6 Q. And during that conversation you said: "But what do you ...

7 Here, you know what? They told me that the people from Krajina are

8 dissatisfied with that Cizmovic ... I don't know that" --

9 Dr. Karadzic says:" All right. That's until the new year, the

10 Serbian new year. Then we'll see."

11 And you say: "But I don't understand this. How did the idea come

12 up that we should coordinate this?"

13 Dr. Karadzic: "You know what? Who will implement what we issued

14 last night?"

15 And you say: "This Council of Ministers."

16 And Dr. Karadzic says: "But they can't run from municipality to

17 municipality."

18 Krajisnik: "Huh?"

19 Karadzic: "They can't run from municipality to municipality and

20 say do this or do that."

21 Krajisnik: "But he won't run either."

22 Karadzic: "But he must run."

23 What was it, Mr. Krajisnik, that Mr. Cizmovic was supposed to run

24 from municipality to municipality to ensure that "what we issued last

25 night," as Dr. Karadzic said it, was implemented? What was he supposed to

Page 25030

1 implement?

2 A. If we look at this carefully, Karadzic says that his term of

3 office is until the Serb new year. And it concerns a decision to form the

4 Republic of Serb People by the Serb new year, that that should be

5 discussed, and you will find this deadline. So we had autonomous regions

6 and they needed to be coordinated. Plus there is other background

7 material that is assigned. If these are instructions A and B, then it

8 applies to the eventuality of war; it doesn't apply just to the Serb new

9 year. I spoke to Cizmovic because the grassroots were opposed to it. He

10 just mentioned this deadline, the Serb new year, because we said we would

11 form the Serb republic if they go through with their independence. We

12 discussed their decision to seek recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And

13 we said: If you go through with this referendum concerning independence,

14 then we'll proclaim the Serb republic, and the deadline is Serb new year.

15 Q. And if they don't go through with it, if they withdraw the

16 memorandum, if they back off of their intention, that is the Muslims back

17 off of their intention to become independent, then the state wouldn't be

18 proclaimed, then the -- and there would be no longer any need to take the

19 preparatory steps represented from Variant A and B because the problem,

20 from the Serb point of view, would be solved. That's what that refers to.

21 Right?

22 A. No, not A and B. Look here. The draft decision to proclaim the

23 Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In the draft that I provided on

24 that DVD, so it was a contingency decision, saying that if Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina is recognised as independent, then the decision comes into

Page 25031

1 force. At the session itself, MPs deleted the "if" and "when." So it was

2 formulated that the Serb republic would be proclaimed by the 13th of

3 January because they had already decided to go through with independence.

4 I don't dispute that the paper existed but it has nothing to do with this.

5 Q. Let's be clear on one thing. At that point, the reference, as you

6 pointed out, to the new year was a reference to the contingency that you

7 describe. That is, the proclamation of the state was contingent on

8 whether or not the Muslims move forward, which was essentially --

9 A. No. Please, you can find this in the documents. It says

10 precisely: We are going forward with preparations for proclaiming a Serb

11 republic because Muslims had already applied for recognition of

12 independence. That was supposed to be done by the 13th of January. And

13 the draft envisaged that our decision would only come into force if and

14 when they get it, because they had only just applied. A and B is a

15 contingency plan only in case of war; that's how I understood it. This

16 was just a preparation. Please, look at it. This decision concerned

17 only preparation, and it was promulgated on the 9th of January instead of

18 on the 13th.

19 Q. Dr. Karadzic, and you, both repeatedly warned people that war

20 would come about if Bosnia -- if the Muslims in Bosnia continued to

21 pursue their move toward independence. Right?

22 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know how many times I've said this. The

23 smallest child in Bosnia and Herzegovina felt that Bosnia and Herzegovina

24 was going into war because not only a crisis had been created --

25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, excuse me --

Page 25032

1 A. -- but -- do you want me to answer or not?

2 Q. I do want you to answer, and that's why I'm refocussing you on the

3 question. Didn't Dr. Karadzic repeatedly say that war would happen if the

4 Muslims in Bosnia continued to pursue their move toward independence?

5 A. Yes. Not if they continue, but if Bosnia and Herzegovina is

6 proclaimed as an independent state, war could start and, in fact, war

7 would start. That was the prevailing opinion. On that point, you are

8 undoubtedly right. And it happened, people knew it.

9 Q. Now, the same --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question because it's not entirely

11 clear to me.

12 Mr. Krajisnik, it seems that Mr. Karadzic, that's at least what I

13 read as being his suggestion, that for the implementation of what was

14 issued last night, one would need to run from municipality to municipality

15 and tell them: Do this, do that.

16 That's what he suggests would be necessary for implementation.

17 Now, please explain to me if this was about the promulgation, as you said,

18 early January of the -- it was the promulgation of the -- let me just

19 check --

20 MR. TIEGER: I think of the declaration of the state, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, declaration of the state.

22 Could you tell me why you would have to run from municipality to

23 municipality and instruct people what to do. That's not entirely clear to

24 me.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Cizmovic was

Page 25033

1 coordinator of autonomous regions, where it had been noted that many of

2 them were not actually operating. He says he would go from municipality

3 to municipality, and I tell him: Well, we have the ministerial council.

4 It was elected at the Assembly. It has nothing to do with the A and B

5 variants. And then he says: Then I won't be running anywhere either.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you -- at least that's how I understand it

7 where we are talking about the proclamation of promulgation of a

8 declaration of a state. When I ask: What would be the purpose of running

9 from municipality to municipality and tell the people what to do in

10 preparation of the declaration of a state, and in your answer you focus on

11 regionalisation and you are not talking anymore about what I ask you, that

12 is what would be the purpose of such activity as a preparation for the

13 declaration of a state.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, autonomous regions have a

15 purpose. Only -- I mean, once the Serb republic is proclaimed, they are

16 no longer necessary, and the deadline was the 13th of January. So he will

17 work until they are established, because it was noted here that they did

18 not actually exist for any practical purpose. I was against any efforts

19 to coordinate on his part. What business does he have to go from Assembly

20 to Assembly? And it says here, it is written, that the regions had not

21 been established, and he was their coordinator.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I tend to agree with your answer, if it is just to

23 tell them that once the state had been declared that there was no need

24 anymore for regions, but that's -- apparently is not what Mr. Karadzic has

25 in mind. Mr. Karadzic has in mind that you have to run from municipality

Page 25034

1 to municipality and to tell them what to do. From what I understand from

2 your answer it is just waiting until whether the state will be proclaimed,

3 yes or no, because then there is no need for them to further function

4 anymore. But it's still unclear what exactly this "running from

5 municipality to municipality, tell them: Do this, do that," how that

6 could play a role in the preparation of the declaration of the state in

7 early January.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Will you allow me to explain,

9 Mr. President?

10 Mr. Cizmovic was the coordinator for autonomous regions, and that

11 has nothing to do with the proclamation of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina, not the state, according to the Cutileiro Plan. At this

13 session there were two issues: The end of regionalisation, that's why

14 they put him there in the first place. As for the preparations for the

15 establishment of the Serb republic, Karadzic says: Up until the 13th of

16 January his action will go on; after that, we don't need him because he

17 thinks that by then the Serb republic will be proclaimed because that was

18 the deadline. Up until that point, there should be these regions that are

19 not functioning. Just look at the instructions. There is not a single

20 action that he should carry through. Everybody was there at the

21 gathering. If they received Variants A and B, why would Cizmovic have to

22 tell them? Karadzic could have told them and he had nothing to do in the

23 field anymore, nothing.

24 JUDGE ORIE: You're now focussing on the person rather than what

25 was, in Mr. Karadzic's view --

Page 25035

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- needed to implement what was issued last night that

3 would require to go from municipality to municipality and to tell them

4 what to do. And that's still a puzzle, but let's proceed. We'll try

5 to -- yes.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll explain, I'll explain. Just a

7 bit more, please, Mr. President. As far as I understood it then, as far

8 as I understand it now -- well, I don't have to explain, but I thought if

9 it was not clear I should explain it. So I'm trying to interpret this.

10 Mr. Karadzic said that the 13th of January was the deadline.

11 Mr. Cizmovic was in charge of coordinating autonomous regions that had not

12 actually started functioning yet. On the 13th of January, the Serb

13 republic was supposed to be proclaimed. He could only work on the

14 coordination of the unestablished autonomous regions. That was his task.

15 Had he received a task for Variants A and B? Well, I don't know what he

16 said to him, but this is my understanding then and this is my

17 understanding today. So -- and I said: Let the ministerial council. Why

18 would Cizmovic have to do that?

19 Well, that's about it. Sorry about that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


22 Q. The same day, Mr. Krajisnik, Dr. Karadzic had a telephone

23 conversation with Mr. Cizmovic, which we'll find at tab 60. And if we

24 could turn to page 2 of the English and the second page of your version,

25 Mr. Krajisnik.

Page 25036

1 Dr. Karadzic says: "The most important thing now in this very

2 moment is that those papers, those ..."

3 And Cizmovic says: "To the realisation."

4 Karadzic: "Right, right."

5 Cizmovic: "Fine."

6 Karadzic: "This is now the most import ..."

7 Cizmovic: "The most important."

8 Karadzic: "You have full authorisation to visit those

9 municipalities, even those where there is no ... and all those there who

10 are ours."

11 Now, Mr. Krajisnik -- take a moment if you want to look at that.

12 A. Let me just have a look at the whole conversation, just for a

13 minute, please.

14 Yes, please go ahead. I have read it. I have read the important

15 parts.

16 Q. So when Dr. Karadzic and you were talking on December 21st about

17 implementing "what we issued last night," and having Cizmovic do it,

18 "that's a reference to," as Dr. Karadzic says in his conversation with

19 Mr. Cizmovic, "those papers."

20 A. Well, it says so right here. Look. This is just an announcement

21 that we're going to proclaim the Serb republic. See? It's right after

22 that, and it -- that's what it says here. And then he talks about

23 Bosanska Krajina that wants to be on its own. I really don't know what

24 other papers. Perhaps there were some papers that I was not aware of, but

25 this is what he's saying here. I read it. Right here. I'm sorry, please

Page 25037

1 have a look.

2 "Well, no way. They will be independent but they will have to be

3 in a unified Bosnia." He's talking about the autonomous regions. That

4 was my understanding -- that is my understanding. I don't know. But not

5 unified Bosnia, you know? They were afraid that there would be a unitary

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they kept wanting to create the Bosanska Krajina

7 into a state because they were afraid of a unitary Bosnia-Herzegovina and

8 that they would stay there. So what papers? I don't know. Cizmovic

9 left. He did not see Karadzic before he left.

10 Q. Well, if the question --

11 A. Sorry, sorry, Mr. Prosecutor. Let me just help you. Cizmovic

12 says:" All right. Tell me, shall we act as a shock absorber in terms of

13 these actions of theirs for independence."

14 See, that's what he's saying about the people of Krajina who want

15 to create an independent republic.

16 And Karadzic says: "Yes, yes, by all means, yes.

17 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, if you're raising the question of what papers we're

18 talking about, let's turn to tab 63 in a conversation between Mr. Karadzic

19 and Miroslav.

20 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, just one moment.

21 Sorry, my apologies.

22 Q. If you turn to page 7 of the English and the -- and page

23 03244715 --

24 A. I don't have any page numbers, so do you mind if I just read it?

25 Q. It's the -- Mr. Krajisnik, you'll see very small page numbers

Page 25038

1 about two-thirds of the way down each page.

2 A. Oh, yes, yes. Yes, yes. I'm sorry.

3 Q. There Dr. Karadzic tells Miroslav: "No, it's not a time for

4 science. It is time to take over real functions, real functions. This,

5 this, and this real function and chop-chop. And there isn't any ... In

6 the sense of that paper ... I don't know. That paper of ours, level one,

7 level two."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That's a clear reference to Variant A and B, Mr. Krajisnik, isn't

10 it?

11 A. I can assume that that's what it is, what I'm reading here, but

12 the entire content here has to do with the community of municipalities,

13 the government being established, all of that, the autonomous regions, and

14 Karadzic is saying to take over power, in fact, not to work only on the

15 basis of declarations. See what it says here: "We're going to do this

16 declaratively," but it says level one, level two which is referred to in

17 Variants A and B. I did not know about this. But he's adding the point

18 here, "this paper," "I don't know this paper here of ours," et cetera.

19 MR. JOSSE: Could I make one suggestion, Your Honour. This is the

20 second intercept that, according to the index that's been provided, has

21 previously been exhibited. Could I invite my learned friend to read out

22 the exhibit number when he asks the witness about the particular

23 intercept, because otherwise we're all going to get rather confused when

24 we come to review this in the future.

25 MR. TIEGER: A very fair request, Your Honour, and I appreciate

Page 25039

1 that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it then that we just looked at P529, tab

3 376?

4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

5 MR. JOSSE: That's right, and for the record then the tab 59,

6 which was a conversation between the witness and Dr. Karadzic was P64A and

7 also part of P64A and P529, tab 383.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's still a mystery what tab that would be

9 under P64A, and we quite a large choice.

10 Please proceed.


12 Q. Now, the conversation between Dr. Karadzic and Miroslav took place

13 shortly before the first Council of Ministers meeting on January 11th.

14 Let's turn first, if we can, to a conversation between you and

15 Dr. Karadzic found at tab 64 on January 10th.

16 A. 64? The last one I have here is 63.

17 Q. Then we'll have to distribute tabs 64 and the ones thereafter.

18 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, and I'd like actually, first, to turn to

19 65, if we can.

20 Q. That's a conversation between Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Cizmovic. And

21 beginning at the first page, Mr. Krajisnik, and it will certainly be the

22 first page of your version as well, where it begins: "Simovic called me

23 about this tomorrow ..."

24 Do you see that? It's about seven lines down from the top.

25 A. Yes, yes, I found that.

Page 25040

1 Q. Cizmovic says: "Simovic called me about this tomorrow."

2 Karadzic: "Yes."

3 Cizmovic: "What should I do?"

4 Karadzic: "It's better for you to be here, because executive

5 matters will take place here" --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, in the English, I read: "Simovic called

7 me about this tomorrow."

8 I mean, if this sentence would not end there, it would just

9 suggest that it was something else and it was interrupted, then I have no

10 problems. But "tomorrow," if someone calls tomorrow, I would have

11 expected him to have called yesterday, but not today, but not tomorrow.

12 Could we just check on the -- perhaps someone could read the -- which

13 seems to be the -- the eighth box. Perhaps --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to read it,

15 Mr. President?

16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just wondering whether you could slowly read it

17 to see if it makes sense, yes.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Simovic called me about this thing

19 tomorrow."

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The mystery is the same. Please proceed.

21 MR. TIEGER: I don't think so, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, do you understand that to mean, and I'll ask you

23 this, that Mr. Cizmovic is referring -- is saying that Simovic called him

24 and the subject matter of the call was something that -- this thing that's

25 going to take place tomorrow?

Page 25041

1 A. Yes. Yes. For something that's going to take place tomorrow,

2 yes.

3 Q. Dr. Karadzic says: "Yes."

4 Cizmovic: "What should I do?"

5 Karadzic: "It's better for you to be here, because executive

6 matters will take place here, and I think that Leovac and Najdanovic will

7 go over there."

8 And then further down the page in the middle of the English on

9 page 2 and again on page 2 of your version: "They should let them solve

10 it by themselves," says Cizmovic.

11 "Actually, only the mandators will be appointed here tomorrow, the

12 mandators, formally speaking, because they must be reduced to executive

13 council ..."

14 Karadzic: "That's clear; that's right.

15 Cizmovic: "... of the government. However, this sound good to

16 them, like this ..."

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you're reading very fast.

18 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Thank you.

19 Q. And finally, Mr. Krajisnik, if you could turn to the last page --

20 actually, it's the bottom of the second-to-last page, the very last

21 comment by Dr. Karadzic on the second-to-last page of your version and the

22 bottom of page 4 in the English.

23 "They will be guests and you are needed here because there will be

24 specific tasks tomorrow," says Dr. Karadzic.

25 Now, the next day was January 11th, and as we've seen before

Page 25042

1 January 11th was the first meeting of the Council of Ministers, which can

2 be found at tab 68.

3 A. Yes. I believe that was the case. I know that there were two

4 meetings in January.

5 Q. And you and Dr. Karadzic attended both meetings, correct,

6 Mr. Krajisnik?

7 A. If that's what's written here, then yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: There may be a misunderstanding on my side, you see

9 68 it is the second meeting, not the first one.

10 MR. TIEGER: You're right, Your Honour. It should be tab 66. I'm

11 sorry.

12 JUDGE ORIE: 66.


14 Q. And turning to page 2 of both the English and B/C/S versions under

15 the heading "execution of tasks resulting from the declaration of the

16 promulgation of the republic of the Serbian People of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina," we see first that it reflects the discussion of issues

18 regarding the execution of tasks resulting from the declaration and that

19 you and Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Dukic and Mr. Savic participated in the

20 discussion alongside the members of the ministerial council. And then it

21 indicates: "It was concluded that the priorities springing from the

22 declaration included" --

23 MR. JOSSE: I don't think Mr. Krajisnik's got the place, I'm

24 afraid.

25 MR. TIEGER: I indicated it was page 2 of his version as well, and

Page 25043

1 I --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But it's not on the other page.

3 That's it. The minutes were adopted, and then the provisional rules of

4 procedure. That's what's on the other page.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I find on page 2, item 2, there's an item 2 on page 1

6 as well, but on page 2 you have underlined in the becoming version, which

7 deals apparently with the -- it says: "The declaration," I take it, from

8 the Republika Srpska -- of the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 You found that, Mr. Krajisnik?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are we talking about tab 68?

11 MR. JOSSE: Yes, that's the problem --

12 JUDGE ORIE: We are talking about 66. It has been corrected.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, well --

14 JUDGE ORIE: At the top of the page, the page --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. I looked at 68 a few

18 moments ago; that was the mistake.

19 I'm so sorry. Could you tell me what the question was.


21 Q. Okay. Just focussing your attention to the second paragraph of

22 item 2, "execution of tasks," which reads: "It was concluded that the

23 priorities springing from the declaration included the defining of ethnic

24 territory, establishment of government organs in the territory, and the

25 economic disempowerment of the current authorities in the socialist

Page 25044

1 republic of BH."

2 And then the next paragraph states: "During discussion it was

3 especially stressed that the ministerial council's function, and the

4 executive organ of the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina, must be taken as a starting point in charting the council's

6 work programme."

7 So these reflect the priority items emerging from the first

8 session of the ministerial council held on the 11th of January, 1992. Is

9 that right, Mr. Krajisnik?

10 A. Yes, that's what it says here and that's correct, yes, after the

11 establishment of Republika Srpska.

12 Q. Now, you and Dr. Karadzic had a telephone conversation prior to a

13 meeting of the Council of Ministers, and that is found at tab 64. And on

14 the first page of the English and the first page of the B/C/S, just

15 slightly below the -- just slightly -- the beginning of the bottom half of

16 the page you say to Dr. Karadzic: "And another thing, we have a Council

17 of Ministers today. Don't know at what time. At 17 I think."

18 Dr. Karadzic says: "Uh-huh."

19 And you say: "Here. Then I'll manage. There's some meeting, but

20 before that I will talk to them to get them to make some decisions and

21 then we'll see."

22 What -- what decisions did you want members of the ministerial

23 council to make, that is what decisions were you referring to in this

24 conversation?

25 A. I do not remember what decisions, but I can tell you what the

Page 25045

1 activity was at the time. That's probably it.

2 Q. Okay. Do you mean what generally you were focussed on at the

3 time? Well, please go ahead, and hear -- the activity at the time?

4 A. Yes, I mean what the ministerial council should do. We started

5 engaging in activities that were envisaged by the Cutileiro Plan, as

6 opposed to the Muslims who were working for independence. And let me just

7 tell you --

8 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, no, let me stop you. Please, if you want to tell

9 us about concrete activities that were underway, please do so. If I want

10 to know why those activities were underway or what the Muslims were doing

11 or not doing, I'll also ask you that.

12 A. You didn't have the patience to hear me out, and that's the

13 sentence that I wanted to finish.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please tell us about concrete activities.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this time preparations started

16 for drafting the constitution of Republika Srpska, thoughts along those

17 lines, and so on and so forth. The constitutional commission already had

18 talks about this and, as I said, all of this was in the context of the

19 Cutileiro Plan, which was proven by the draft itself.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm aware of the clock, talking about

21 concrete activities. Perhaps you should have a break for 20 minutes

22 and -- unless this would be an unsuitable moment for you.

23 MR. TIEGER: I think that's a suitable moment, Your Honour. Thank

24 you for asking.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until ten minutes to 1.00.

Page 25046

1 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we'll have a short session until 25

4 minutes past 1.00.

5 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour, Your Honour. We have been

6 advised.

7 Q. If I could ask the Court and Mr. Krajisnik to turn to tab 67.

8 That contains a conversation between Mr. Cizmovic and Dr. Karadzic on the

9 16th of January, 1992.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, that's P529, Hanson tab 385.

11 Q. And if we could turn to page 7 of the English, and that begins,

12 Mr. Krajisnik, if you'll see again the small ERN number at the bottom

13 third of the page to the right, 03244902. Mr. Cizmovic indicates to

14 Dr. Karadzic: "There's no discord in Prijedor anymore."

15 Karadzic: "Miskovic can do good work. Right?"

16 Cizmovic: "Yes. Prijedor is resolved."

17 And then further halfway down the page in English and at the

18 bottom of your page in B/C/S, Mr. Krajisnik, Cizmovic: "I've talked to

19 Bijeljina."

20 Karadzic: "To who?"

21 Cizmovic: "Bijeljina."

22 Karadzic: "Uh-huh."

23 Cizmovic: "They are prepared for full cooperation. It's the same

24 case with Northern Bosnia. I've prepared a small questionnaire for all of

25 them."

Page 25047

1 Karadzic: "Uh-huh."

2 Cizmovic: "What have they managed to do? How far circulate they

3 come?"

4 Karadzic: Mm."

5 Cizmovic: "Are they prepared to implement the first level of the

6 instructions? What are the problems? What do they need help with? I am

7 even prepared to form a sort of team with your help, a team that would

8 possibly give them professional help with anything they find problematic."

9 So as we can see from this intercept, Mr. Krajisnik, between the

10 first and second sessions of the Council of Ministers on January 11th and

11 January 17th, 1992, Mr. Cizmovic was going to various municipalities to

12 determine the extent to which they had implemented the first level of the

13 Variant A and B instructions. Right?

14 A. Despite my best intentions, I cannot make the connection with the

15 instructions because the autonomous regions have nothing to do with the

16 instructions in peacetime. Maybe they did something quite outside of

17 that. He did tour regions. I can tell you what he did in Prijedor, in

18 Banja Luka. All of that has nothing to do with instructions. I do not

19 dispute that that paper existed, but I can tell you what he did in those

20 towns, in Prijedor and Banja Luka.

21 Q. What he did when in Prijedor and Banja Luka? At this period of

22 time?

23 A. There was a recurrent problem, namely that there were rifts on the

24 municipal level even after the establishment of the republic. And there

25 was constant talk about the new leaderships being always worse than the

Page 25048

1 previous ones. Then they wanted to join this Krajina. I know exactly

2 what he did in Banja Luka and in Prijedor -- or rather, not what he did

3 but what was going on. He himself is from Banja Luka, Mr. Cizmovic, and

4 he says he was touring regions here.

5 Q. Well, is it your position that you do or you don't know what he

6 did in Prijedor and Banja Luka?

7 A. I don't know what he did. I know what happened, what was going on

8 in Prijedor and Banja Luka and what it might have been about. He didn't

9 report to me about his visits to Prijedor and Banja Luka.

10 Q. Well, whatever else was going on in Prijedor and Banja Luka, it's

11 clear that Mr. Cizmovic was going to various municipalities with his sort

12 of questionnaire in an effort to ensure the implementation of the first

13 level of the instructions. Right?

14 A. Mr. Prosecutor, he toured regions. You see, it's written here

15 that he toured regions, Northern Bosnia, and the rest. I don't know what

16 polling papers he distributed, what questionnaires. I know he was in

17 charge of autonomous regions, but what, if anything, he did outside of

18 that, I don't know. I don't know if he had any instructions. He was not

19 in charge of that. He was the official representative of the republic.

20 He was no secret agent; that's what I think, at least.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Tieger.

22 Again, I'm very much trusting that -- let's stick as much as we

23 can to facts rather than anything else.

24 Mr. Krajisnik, are you aware of any document which contains

25 instructions split up in a first level and other levels which was at that

Page 25049

1 time a -- playing a role? You told us already that you're not aware of

2 the A and B variant document. Is there any other document containing

3 instructions divided in different levels?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know of any other

5 documents.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any clear reference to any non-written

7 instructions split up on two levels or more levels?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that either.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then stay out of further speculations.

10 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

11 MR. TIEGER: If we could turn next to tab 68, Your Honours, where

12 we'll find the minutes of the second session of the Council of Ministers

13 held on 17 January 1992. That's P64, P65, Treanor 7, tab 82.

14 Q. And if we could turn to page 5 of the English and also page 5 of

15 the B/C/S, SA010905, which reflect at item 8 "the realisation of the

16 conclusions reached at the first meeting of the ministerial council of the

17 Assembly of the Serbian People of BH."

18 "The ministerial council expressed the view that the conclusions

19 of the first meeting of the council had been put into effect. More

20 emphasis should be put on the intensification of the activities aimed at

21 coordinating the work of the governments in all SAOs in which the most

22 important task is that of Jovan Cizmovic."

23 Now, again, at the first page of these minutes, Mr. Krajisnik, it

24 reflects your attendance and Dr. Karadzic's attendance, among others. So

25 it's correct then that by the time of the second meeting of the

Page 25050

1 ministerial council, the conclusions from the first meeting had been put

2 into effect, that is those conclusions were underway and progressing?

3 A. Yes, it's written here. I suppose it's a conclusion.

4 Q. Okay. And that would include, as we discussed earlier, the

5 defining of ethnic territory, the establishment of government organs in

6 the territory, and the economic disempowerment of the current authorities

7 in the socialist republic of BH?

8 A. Yes, that was supposed to be included, but it was never finalised.

9 That was Mr. Cizmovic's task, but it was not completed, which means that

10 they drew the wrong conclusion here.

11 Q. When you say "they drew the wrong conclusion," do I take that to

12 mean you mean they hadn't -- the conclusions hadn't been fully perfected

13 or completed by that time. That's your -- is that what you're saying?

14 A. I didn't say that I drew the wrong conclusion; I said they drew

15 the wrong conclusion here. They formulated the wrong conclusion because

16 not all of the underlying activities had been completed, such as taking

17 over power, et cetera, assuming ethnic territories, taking control, et

18 cetera. Also, Mr. Prosecutor, the sixth point was important as well, and

19 I would like to explain it for the record.

20 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, with -- you were given a great deal of time to

21 explain a great many things. Unless this bears directly on the questions

22 I'm asking, I prefer to move on to my next questions about the subject

23 we're addressing now. So although I know you have an interest always in

24 expanding answers, I'd like to stay focussed on the subject we've been

25 addressing for the last session and pursuing now.

Page 25051

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, at the very end of the

2 cross-examination, if important matters have been left out which are

3 directly relevant for the questions put to you, you'll have an opportunity

4 to add.


6 Q. I'd like to turn next to tab 69. That's a conversation between --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I go back for one second --

8 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- to this because otherwise it slips out of our

10 minds.

11 Mr. Krajisnik, when we earlier talked about what was the need of

12 going to the municipalities and tell them what to do and -- one of your

13 explanations was that the whole issue of the regions, once the state would

14 have been declared, was -- there was no need for them anymore. Now I see

15 in this point 8 we just looked at, that "more emphasis should be put on

16 the intensification of the activities aimed at coordinating the work of

17 the governments of all SAOs in which the most important task is that of

18 Jovan Cizmovic."

19 That's, at least at first eye, seems to contradict what you

20 earlier explained that there would be no need anymore for this

21 regionalisation and that that explained the portion of the telephone

22 conversation about running around, telling what to do, on the issue that

23 was -- I think it said delivered or something, what was issued yesterday

24 evening. I have not in my mind anymore what the exact wordings were.

25 MR. TIEGER: Implement, Your Honour.

Page 25052

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, implement yesterday night or last night. You

2 said: There was no need anymore, and that was part of your explanation.

3 Here it, however, seems that even one asks for -- a more intensive

4 approach of this matter. I have difficulties in reconciling the two.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll explain. I spoke about the

6 telephone conversation between Karadzic and me when I ask him: Why do we

7 need that? And he said: Until the new year, until the proclamation of

8 Republika Srpska. So his job would not be necessary anymore because it

9 had to do with coordination. I objected to that new post. I said: Why

10 do we need him? I was just explaining the telephone conversation between

11 Karadzic and me, and Karadzic replied that he would be in that position

12 only until the new year. Eventually it turned out differently. He

13 continued after the new year as well.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, tab 68 contains a telephone

16 conversation on January 22nd, 1992, between Mr. Cizmovic and Dr. --

17 MR. JOSSE: Not 68.

18 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, 69.

19 Between Mr. Cizmovic and Dr. Karadzic, and that will need a new

20 number, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It will be put on the list prepared by Madam

22 Registrar.

23 MR. TIEGER: Yeah.

24 Q. Now, here, Mr. Krajisnik, we see Mr. Cizmovic and Dr. Karadzic

25 talking about five days after the second session of the Council of

Page 25053

1 Ministers. And if we turn quickly to page 5 of the document in English

2 and pages 5109 and 5110, we see references to Mr. Cizmovic's contact with

3 Doboj, Bijeljina, Birac, Romanija, Herzegovina. And then if we can turn

4 to page 6 of the English and page 03245111 of your -- well, it actually

5 begins 5110 and on to 5111 of your version.

6 Mr. Cizmovic says: "Because, we should not interpret all these

7 movements that are going on here as some kind of a secession, or as some

8 defections."

9 Karadzic: "Yes, yes."

10 Cizmovic: "They should be understood only as ..."

11 And Karadzic says: "An alternative."

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I think in order to guide Mr. Krajisnik,

13 this starts at 5110, then we now are at the top of 5111, the alternative.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


17 Q. And Cizmovic says: "... of a situation, in a need to react

18 everything should be ready on stand-by ..."

19 Karadzic: "So we could react within two hours."

20 Cizmovic: "Correct."

21 Karadzic: "That's right."

22 Cizmovic: "We have formed a Crisis Staff tonight, which is to

23 operate in such cases when we cannot gather anybody, so they can gather

24 first."

25 Karadzic: "Excellent."

Page 25054

1 Cizmovic: "So, the thing is functioning. Because a purpose has

2 to be fulfilled, and instruction has to be fulfilled."

3 Karadzic: "Yes, I agree."

4 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, does this reflect Mr. Cizmovic's efforts

5 toward the intensification of the implementation of the conclusions of the

6 first meeting?

7 A. You mean ministerial council?

8 Q. Correct. Sorry --

9 A. No, no. This is a completely different, separate meeting where

10 Mr. Ivanovic attended. You see it here where the communities of

11 municipalities of Krajina gathered. You see that from the text above, and

12 they say: "Let's not treat this as secession. They even attacked

13 Najdanovic over there." This is nothing to do with the conclusions of the

14 ministerial council; it's just a session of the community or union of

15 municipalities.

16 Q. And what about Mr. Cizmovic's continuing efforts with such places

17 as Doboj, Bijeljina, Birac, Romanija, and Herzegovina? Isn't that a

18 continuation of his effort to ensure the implementation of the ministerial

19 council's conclusions?

20 A. Mr. Cizmovic was a Montenegrin and so was Mr. Karadzic, and he was

21 a confidant of Mr. Karadzic and he kept him informed. You see, Milakovic

22 and Janjic here, people who were making plans, all of them, for the

23 secession of Bosnian Krajina. Those were not the conclusions of the

24 ministerial council. You see that in the text above. It's all written

25 there.

Page 25055

1 Q. And in the short period before the break, Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going

2 to turn quickly to --

3 MR. TIEGER: Well, perhaps not so quickly, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, would it help you if you -- we would give

5 you a few hours to find your next question?

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm absolutely confident that as soon as

7 we break it will be found.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Then you have the whole of the night to

9 think it over, but it's really the next question you'd like to put to

10 Mr. Krajisnik.

11 We will adjourn, Mr. Krajisnik, but not until after I have

12 instructed not to speak with anyone about the testimony already given or

13 still to be given. We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 10.00, same

14 courtroom, and if you would allow me to add that I wish you a lot of

15 strength tomorrow morning with the dentist because that's not what people

16 like most in their lives, although perhaps it's a minor inconvenience.

17 We stand adjourned.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.25 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of

20 June, 2006, at 10.00 a.m.