Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25378

1 Thursday, 8 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

9 Mr. Krajisnik, you provided us again with some documents. I think

10 most of them untranslated. I did the same as I did before; I distributed

11 them among the parties so that the parties can see to what extent they

12 think it useful for the Chamber to introduce them into evidence. If,

13 finally, nothing would be done, and if you have any very specific requests

14 to say this document is for this reason very important, you can do that at

15 the end of your testimony, after the parties have considered whether or

16 not to tender them and to introduce them into evidence.

17 Then I'd like to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn

18 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, and I would

19 like to give an opportunity to you --


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, excuse me. Yesterday I

23 took the two transcripts, the two records regarding Arkan's men. Those

24 are the first two documents that related to Arkan's men that I would like

25 to explain. They are not new. They are in evidence. And they have to do

Page 25379

1 with Panorama, which I realised when I reviewed them. There is one

2 document making a reference to Russian automatic weapons. Maybe they

3 don't need to be in evidence but I would like to explain. It's all in OTP

4 documentation.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, if you would like to say something

6 more, because yesterday, almost at the end of your examination, the issue

7 of Arkan's men residing in the Panorama Hotel was raised. If you would

8 like to add anything to your testimony in this respect, please do so,

9 because it appeared in two documents, both being reports, from what I

10 remember, of --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Here I have a

12 record of a government -- a cabinet session, dated the 29th of July,

13 1992. The last numbers are 462. It's the last page of that record,

14 speaking of Panorama. I will read. It's AB 25 -- or AD 25. If you don't

15 have it, we can put it on the ELMO.

16 JUDGE ORIE: It's not -- I don't know whether it's quite clear to

17 me what AB stands for, the numbering.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, it's an item in it. It's an

19 item in the record. It's an item of the agenda.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you tell us, if you have got it there,

21 unless one of the parties would mind if Mr. Krajisnik reads a portion of

22 the agenda of the -- of what I understand to be the cabinet meeting --

23 yes, cabinet session, 29th of July, and you tell us on the basis of what

24 you know that one of the items on the agenda, number 25, would be what

25 exactly, Mr. Krajisnik?

Page 25380

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has to do with the Panorama, and

2 it could shed some light on affairs related to Arkan's men.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you take it from a document, perhaps put

4 that on the ELMO so we can see what is in the document, because I also do

5 understand that you had no personal recollection of --

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, based on the ERN, we have been able to

7 locate the English translation. There are a number of ways of dealing

8 with that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Of this document?

10 MR. TIEGER: Yes.


12 MR. TIEGER: I think we can either send it -- it can either be put

13 on the screen electronically, I think, or it can be sent to the registrar

14 and be immediately printed and I leave it that to the Court.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps that's the best way of dealing with it. And

16 I do see that one of the documents Mr. Krajisnik has, he put something in

17 yellow. It should be in front of you. Let's have look at it.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I marked it. I highlighted certain

19 passages so you can see them.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please read slowly to us what it says under --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I then put it in front of me?

22 Because you have it.

23 JUDGE ORIE: If you can read it from your screen, it would be

24 better for the --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

Page 25381

1 MR. JOSSE: Let Mr. Krajisnik have our copy and then the other one

2 can be on the screen. That seems a good compromise.

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm told we can -- this can be sent to

4 the Chamber so you can be --

5 JUDGE ORIE: We have the originals. The B/C/S, not the English

6 translation.

7 MR. TIEGER: That's what I was referring to, that we could provide

8 the English translation immediately, if that's useful.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you have sent it already to Mr. Registrar or

10 not? Because what we then could do is to have, at 25, which takes only

11 one-third of the page, together with the translation, have that on the

12 ELMO.

13 MR. TIEGER: It has been sent and Mr. Registrar is waiting for the

14 receipt.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He's now printing it, and then Madam Usher,

16 once we have the English translation, could you please add the English

17 translation just above. So zoom out a little bit and have the English

18 translation on top of -- yes. Paper tray is empty. That's --

19 MR. JOSSE: While this is being done, do my learned friends know

20 whether this has been exhibited?

21 MR. TIEGER: Given the date, I'd say there is a strong

22 probability, but we'll check that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could already start if you just slowly

24 read agenda item 25. We are aware that the interpreters are now

25 translating just from this document, and of course that's different from

Page 25382

1 having time and having a possibility to look up whatever one wants to look

2 up.

3 Could you please slowly read, Mr. --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "It has been concluded that the

5 costs of accommodation and food provided in facilities Panorama and

6 Buducnost be paid for refugees and the wounded who are there for

7 convalescence after hospital treatment. It has also been decided to take

8 over facilities Panorama and Buducnost starting with the 1st of August as

9 assets for defence requirements, to conclude contracts with them providing

10 for payment of accommodation and catering with the proviso that an

11 obligation be imposed on the refugees to contribute to the costs of

12 accommodation and catering in an amount to be agreed. The costs of

13 accommodation and food for the wounded would be paid in full."


15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is also a record of a

16 Presidency session of the 3rd of July that is related to this document

17 from which we can see that the Buducnost facility housed the wounded

18 whereas the Panorama building was used for housing refugees.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just one additional question, Mr. Krajisnik, in

20 this respect. You were staying in the Panorama Hotel. Who else of, well,

21 let's say the persons whose names we have frequently heard, were there

22 apart from you? Any other government officials or -- I don't remember, as

23 a matter of fact, at this moment although it may have been said.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. There was a large number

25 of people there in addition to refugees from the Assembly, from the

Page 25383

1 government, and there are only 30 to 40 double rooms there, whereas this

2 is a reference here to 20 Arkan's men. They could have been in a

3 different building. These two only shared the same management, and that's

4 why I wanted you to see the record of that Presidency session, 3rd of

5 July. Here it is.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although, of course, the Presidency session

7 doesn't say anything about government officials in Panorama.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So-called meeting -- no, no, no.

9 Please, there are just two lines here, if you could read them.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I -- let me just -- yes. The only thing I'm

11 referring to is that apart from refugees and wounded, there is no further

12 specification given. It doesn't say refugees, government officials, or

13 government -- or refugees, paramilitaries, or refugees, soldiers. It

14 doesn't say anything. But let's -- you've drawn our attention.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the wounded were in

16 Buducnost building. It's written here. Whereas Panorama housed refugees.

17 Somebody just lumped it together.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But what I'm saying is that it does not mention

19 in any way government officials, which, as I understand, were residing in

20 Panorama as well. Yes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was there.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is this an exhibit at this moment or is it not?

23 MR. STEWART: Not absolutely sure it was an exhibit. It was among

24 all the hyperlinked material that we had in court during Mr. Krajisnik's

25 evidence. We can check that. Mr. Sladojevic can look on his list.

Page 25384

1 MR. TIEGER: The Court is referring to the Presidency session?

2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm now referring to the government session of the

3 29th of July in which this agenda item 25 appears. And as a matter of

4 fact, it seems that it is a -- yes, it's 29th of July. It seems to be the

5 43rd session of the government, yes.

6 MR. STEWART: We have got a complete English translation. Was

7 that the issue just now?

8 JUDGE ORIE: No, we have that as well.

9 MR. STEWART: With that ERN number. We've got a proper ET ERN

10 document.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We have it in front of us. If the parties would

12 please try to find out in silence whether it is exhibited. If it is, we

13 would like to hear the number. If it's not, the parties could -- perhaps

14 then it would be good that it would be -- become an exhibit because

15 Mr. Krajisnik has testified about this document.

16 Anything else at this moment, Mr. Krajisnik?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

18 I would just like you to see this other document showing that

19 Buducnost housed the wounded.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute? The report we saw yesterday

21 was only about Panorama. Is there any -- is there any dispute that

22 wounded people were housed in this other building, Mr. Tieger?

23 MR. TIEGER: None that I'm aware of at this time, Your Honour. I

24 would have no basis.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It has no relevance for you at this moment?

Page 25385

1 MR. TIEGER: I don't think so.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Is that different for the Defence? No, same. So

3 then we leave it to the Panorama at this moment, Mr. Krajisnik.

4 Yes, Mr. Tieger you may proceed.

5 Oh, yes, Judge Hanoteau has a question.

6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik, you were staying

7 at the Hotel Panorama. How many people stayed at the hotel at the same

8 time as you? Can you tell us?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 35 at the most. 45 rooms in two

10 pavilions. They were double rooms and it was full. Full of refugees. I

11 was a refugee myself.

12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And if the president will allow me,

14 I found one document showing that there existed Russian-made automatic

15 weapons. It's an OTP document, if I may show it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you've -- do you mean Russian-made automatic

17 weapons after the Second World War?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no -- yes, yes. Automatic

19 weapons, but from the period from 1949 to 1957. Those with the drum

20 barrels that I tried to explain, which is completely different from later,

21 modern automatic rifles.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes but -- no, Mr. Krajisnik. You were just

23 interpreting, without any specific knowledge, just on the basis of the

24 wording of what we found in this report, you were -- you were looking at

25 whether any inferences could be made, you made some inferences, which I

Page 25386

1 expressed some doubt as to whether there was an objective justification

2 for these inferences. In that context, I asked myself, and to that extent

3 of course you as well, whether Russian automatic weapons could be

4 automatic weapons produced later. I don't think that this was excluded,

5 and if we want to pursue that matter, we should do that thoroughly and

6 systematically and I leave it at this moment to the parties to see whether

7 we should give it any follow-up. Not as far as I'm concerned.

8 Therefore --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have any objective

10 knowledge or information, you are right about that. I was just trying to

11 give my interpretation, and thank you for allowing me that.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krajisnik.

16 A. Good afternoon, Prosecutor Tieger.

17 Q. I'd like to conclude our discussion or questions and answers about

18 Arkan and Arkan's forces. Yesterday you described the extent of your

19 familiarity with Arkan and Arkan's forces, and I'd like to ask you now,

20 then, to turn to tab 149, where we find P1021.1A. That's a portion -- or

21 a video footage from an interview of you in 1993, in May of 1993, I

22 believe, and it's a document we've seen before. And as you will recall, I

23 believe, there is a question from a viewer about Arkan's statement

24 regarding acts of deputies, and your answer was: "I think that Mr. Arkan

25 has many positive and significant credits when it comes to the Serbian

Page 25387

1 people. So when I consider his negative statements, the balance is still

2 positive."

3 Mr. Krajisnik, what were the many positive and significant credits

4 that Mr. Arkan had when it came to the Serbian people?

5 A. I don't know about any positive contributions by Mr. Arkan.

6 Q. And when you stated to the individual viewer and to the television

7 audience that you thought that he had many positive and significant

8 credits, to what, then, were you referring?

9 A. Well, after this, I inquired about the truth of the matter, and I

10 now know what it was all about. I found the documents. At that time, I

11 didn't know.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'd like to invite Mr. Krajisnik to

13 explain what the whole of the answer was about, but it's --

14 You said you inquired into the matter. I do understand that it

15 has got something to do with deputies banned to come to the parliament.

16 You say this is what did not happen. And it was about a statement by

17 Mr. Arkan regarding acts of deputies of Republika Srpska at all Serbian

18 Assembly and at the previous Assembly. Could you tell us which Assembly

19 he was referring to?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not about the Serb Assembly

21 but the Serbian Assembly, the one in Belgrade. Mr. President, I'll

22 explain. Right away. There was the Vance-Owen Plan on the agenda and

23 late Mr. Milosevic organised an all-Serb Assembly, inviting all deputies

24 from Montenegro, the Serb Krajina, Republika Srpska, and Serbia, and at

25 this enlarged forum, he wanted to force us to accept the Vance-Owen Plan.

Page 25388

1 We sent four men -- or rather, four people; Mr. Buha, Mr. Jovo Mijatovic,

2 Mrs. Plavsic, and I don't know who the fourth person was. At that

3 Assembly --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to stop you. Could you tell

5 us when that Assembly was held, approximately?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a document, although not

7 right here. I can show you. It was in 1993. January, maybe February,

8 1993. I don't know exactly but I have a document that I can show you. It

9 was published.

10 JUDGE ORIE: It gives us a time frame, although not very precise.

11 I don't know whether we need any more precision at this moment but at

12 least it's early 1993. Thank you.

13 Mr. Tieger.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Arkan was an MP in the Serbian

15 Assembly, and at this session, he stated that Mladic had banned the

16 deputies of Republika Srpska to attend this Serb Assembly. And then there

17 was this TV programme when I didn't want to increase the tensions with

18 Serbia. Whereas Arkan, as an MP, defended certain interests and passed

19 off certain stories as an MP, I said that he's a man who did some good

20 things because I didn't want to increase tensions with Serbia. They were

21 about to impose sanctions on us. Whereas Mladic had said that RS deputies

22 were banned from attending that Assembly. That's why I said that he did

23 something good, meaning he did it as an MP. And I wouldn't have said this

24 -- I wouldn't be saying this now if I hadn't inquired into it thoroughly.

25 I can show you all the documents.

Page 25389

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.


3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, we also discussed Seselj and Seselj's men

4 yesterday. Now, his groups included those --

5 MR. TIEGER: In that connection, Your Honour, if we could

6 distribute the next item.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I produce that document about

8 Arkan, Your Honour?

9 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to the parties whether there is any --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. I meant it only if it's

11 needed. If it's not needed, fine.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for offering it to us, Mr. Krajisnik.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I or should I not? I didn't

14 quite understand. It is from the Politika daily newspaper, has articles

15 and his statement.

16 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I'd encourage Mr. Krajisnik to hand the

17 document to someone, because of course the parties can't explore the

18 matter if they aren't given a copy of the document.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you're invited to pass a copy of the

20 document you had in mind to Mr. Registrar so that the parties can look at

21 it. Yes.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd do that tomorrow. I haven't got

23 it here today.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's fine.


Page 25390

1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, as I began to ask, it's correct that Arkan --

2 excuse me, that Seselj's groups included those led by Slavko Aleksic,

3 Mirko Blagojevic - both of those found at page 1 in the English of the

4 order and page 1 of your version as well - Branislav Gavrilovic, aka Brne,

5 found on page 3, and Jovo Ostojic, among others?

6 A. Yes. I mean, yes, we did meet.

7 Q. And indeed from time to time, Mr. Seselj himself met with members

8 of the Bosnian Serb leadership, including yourself, during the period 1992

9 through, let's say the first half of 1993?

10 A. Yes. Once we found it here, that he visited Pale after these

11 vojvodas were proclaimed. Now, was he with me? I believe he was.

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I believe although I indicated that the

13 document needed a number, I'm not sure we actually assigned one.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We didn't do so, Mr. Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1226, Your Honours.


17 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that Mr. Seselj supported the efforts

18 of the Bosnian Serb leadership and the Bosnian Serbs because he understood

19 from his meetings with the Bosnian Serb leadership that you were pursuing

20 objectives that he also sought.

21 A. Well, if his objectives were like ours, then all right. But there

22 is a certain degree of differentiation here. What do you consider his

23 objectives to be? He supported us in every period of crisis when the

24 official authorities from Serbia attacked us. That's when we needed

25 support.

Page 25391

1 Q. Well, perhaps we can look at tab 153.

2 MR. TIEGER: Which will need a number, Your Honour.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1227, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


6 Q. Which reflects in part the comments of Mr. Seselj in June, 1993,

7 the month following his meeting with you and Dr. Karadzic after the

8 vojvoda ceremony. And if we can turn to page 3 of the English and,

9 Mr. Krajisnik, to 02088799, the very bottom of the first column and the

10 top two paragraphs of the middle column, Dr. Seselj is saying, speaking

11 about a Serbian state, which could be called, for example, Western Serbia,

12 and stating: "That would finally resolve Serbian national issue or better

13 said, that would signify the realisation of the national interests and

14 goals of the current combat of Serbs western from Drina River. Western

15 Serbia must be --"

16 A. I beg your pardon. I took the other one but I haven't got it

17 here. I'm sorry. I hope it's not a problem for you. It's very hard to

18 see this because of the binding. "Ovations for Duke Seselj"? Is that

19 what you're reading from? This is the first time I see this, so I would

20 like to read it. If the subheading is "Ovations for Duke Seselj," then

21 that should be it. Is that what I'm supposed to read?

22 Q. Yes, it's under that portion, correct. And the portion I was just

23 reading from begins a little more than halfway through the second

24 paragraph, and as I say, it's found at the very bottom of the far

25 left-hand column, Mr. Krajisnik. And then we'll continue on to the middle

Page 25392

1 column.

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. "Western Serbia," Mr. Seselj stated, "must be equal federal unit

4 and in order to realise that as soon as possible, it is necessary to

5 completely liberate and mark Serbian territories in Republika Srpska. The

6 only thing left to do would be to take (liberate) Orasje, Srebrenica,

7 Gorazde and some parts of Serbian Herzegovina and Serbian Sarajevo, and

8 that job would be done."

9 He goes on to say that: "Then Muslims wouldn't have any option

10 but to accept the division ..." and then he continues on the next

11 paragraph, referring to his support for the SDS, including: "Serbian

12 Radical Party is again honouring Serbian Democratic Party, said Seselj,

13 and we shall never forget or deny the fact that SDS was the first one to

14 rise for the Defence of Serbian national interest and its dignity. They

15 organised and spiritually enlightened Serbian people and started the

16 combat for the creation of Serbian state on the territory of former Bosnia

17 and Herzegovina."

18 And he goes on, and I'll certainly read -- invite you to read that

19 paragraph. He goes on to talk about the war and the Vance-Owen Plan and

20 maps.

21 A. Yes, I've read it.

22 Q. All right. That's -- those remarks are a reflection of

23 Mr. Seselj's understanding of the uniformity of view on a number of

24 important issues and regarding events in Bosnia and Herzegovina and

25 Republika Srpska between him and the Bosnian Serb leadership.

Page 25393

1 A. Firstly, this is a programme of the Serb Radical Party that he

2 presented here in court as well. And the -- and the Presiding Judge,

3 Judge Orie, is going to try Mr. Seselj in this Court. This is what

4 Mr. Seselj is saying, but he was not in charge of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The

5 responsibility was that of the Serb Democratic Party. So if it were the

6 other way around, if the SDS supported what he was saying, then that would

7 be different, but this is, in his view, supportive of the good things, as

8 he believes, of the SDS -- things that the SDS did. We didn't ask anyone

9 to do anything, so it's not an identical programme. These are two

10 different parties.

11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik -- excuse me -- during the course of your

12 examination-in-chief, you had occasion to comment on the issue of the

13 shelling of Sarajevo, and in particular, on May 14th -- or May 24th,

14 excuse me, in connection with testimony during the Prosecution case on the

15 shelling of Sarajevo, you said, at page 88, line 2: "As for any other

16 assessments in terms of whether something like that happened or not, nor

17 do I know. There was this accusation all the time about Sarajevo being

18 shelled and there were exchanges of gun-fire, but I really cannot remember

19 anything special."

20 Now, another Prosecution witness, General Wilson, testified that

21 Sarajevo suffered a horrific bombardment on the 14th of May, 1992, when

22 something on the order of 5.000 to 10.000 rounds were fired into the city,

23 and he described it as extensive, indiscriminate, and disproportionate.

24 And in connection with the 14th of May, 1992, I'd ask you to turn now to

25 tab 55, and I don't know if those binders have been distributed yet.

Page 25394

1 A. The 24th of May or the 14th of May?

2 MR. TIEGER: Those materials will need to be distributed, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, in English, we find on the transcript,

5 and that's what I remember Mr. Tieger said, is the 14th of May.

6 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But before that, he said the 24th of

8 May, so I was wondering whether he accidentally made a mistake. I heard

9 the interpretation, and it said the 24th of May.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That's why I'm clarifying the matter. On the

11 transcript it appears in English that he said twice the 14th of May, but

12 that's at least what he meant to say.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the confusion may be that when I

14 referred to Mr. Krajisnik's testimony during the examination-in-chief,

15 that was the 24th of May.


17 MR. TIEGER: But the shelling in Sarajevo to which I'm referring,

18 and the date is the 14th of May, 1992.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was the 24th of May, 2006.

20 MR. JOSSE: Is there an index with this presentation?

21 MR. TIEGER: I believe there will be. I don't know if you have

22 the materials yet.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Tab 155 arrives but at this moment without an

24 index. I take it that you'll soon find it, Mr. Tieger, so let's proceed.

25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, this is an

Page 25395

1 intercepted telephone conversation between Mrs. Plavsic and Radmila on the

2 14th of May, 1992. The best information I have at this point,

3 unfortunately, is that it is in evidence but as P64A, and obviously it

4 needs more specific identification and we'll provide that for the Court.



7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, as you can see from the transcript of this

8 conversation, Mrs. Plavsic is speaking to Radmila, and when Radmila asks

9 her, "How are you?" Mrs. Plavsic says, "Listen."

10 And then Mrs. Plavsic says: "Can you do anything, do you know how

11 this building is being shelled?" And then she describes it as a horror.

12 A little further down: "It's a horror, are they thinking ... let

13 me tell you, it's a disaster."

14 And then on the second page of the English, and the second page of

15 your version as well, Mr. Krajisnik, Mrs. Plavsic states: "Tell me,

16 please, do they really have to shell civilian targets?"

17 And Radmila says: "I must not tell you anything, I was told not

18 to disclose any information over the phone ... we can't ..."

19 Mrs. Plavsic says: "Yes, yes. All right, all right."

20 Radmila: ... give today. The situation is such that one cannot

21 say anything about it, you know."

22 And further on, toward the end of the conversation, the brief

23 conversation, Mrs. Plavsic says: "... only, I was wondering if civilian

24 targets must really ..."

25 And Radmila says: "What is being done, had to be done, that is

Page 25396

1 all I can tell you."

2 Now, this conversation, Mr. Krajisnik, occurred at a time when

3 Mrs. Plavsic, as you indicated previously, was still in Sarajevo, correct?

4 A. As far as I can see, she was in Sarajevo, yes. The 20th of May,

5 the 22nd, the 24th, until when was she in Sarajevo?

6 Q. And can you tell the Court, please, who Radmila was?

7 A. I assume that that's a secretary in the MUP. I know that there

8 was some Radmila who was a secretary in the MUP in Braca.

9 Q. And that's the RS MUP, correct?

10 A. Yes, yes. If that's the person it is. There was this Radmila in

11 the Serb SUP -- MUP in Braca at that time.

12 Q. So as -- it's correct that Mrs. Plavsic was aware and Radmila was

13 also aware of the shelling that took place on the date testified to by

14 General Wilson.

15 A. Well, yes, but I can remind you that on the 13th of May, Mladic

16 talked to Unkovic and he said we have to observe the cease-fire, remember?

17 It was on our agenda yesterday. There was some reason here for this

18 shelling. I don't know. Mladic said that to Unkovic only a day before.

19 He was talking about Arkan's men. We have to observe the cease-fire, the

20 one-sided cease-fire agreed upon in the Assembly. We had proclaimed a

21 one-sided cease-fire.

22 MR. TIEGER: Just one moment, Your Honour, excuse me.

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]


25 Q. Can we turn next to tab 156, please.

Page 25397

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I believe this will need a number.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 156 will be P1228, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I heard this audio tape too.

6 I heard it here. You played it -- I know this conversation. From hearing

7 it here, I mean.


9 Q. Well, then, in that case we may double check about the number,

10 Your Honour, but meanwhile in any event, Mr. Krajisnik, this is a

11 telephone conversation between General Mladic and Mirko Vukasinovic on the

12 28th of May. And it begins with Mladic speaking and asking, "From where

13 does your artillery shoot the best?" And continuing to inquire about

14 where Vukasinovic suggested they shoot, talking about the number of

15 salvos, where they should fire, and then, about halfway down through the

16 conversation, General Mladic states: "Shoot at Velusici, and also at

17 Pofalici, there is not much Serb population there ... shoot there, around

18 Dobrovoljacka Street, up there around Humska ..."

19 And they continue further, Mladic: "Understood?"

20 Vukasinovic: "Yes, sir."

21 Mladic: "And apply artillery reconnaissance, so that they cannot

22 sleep, that we roll out their minds, drive them crazy."

23 Vukasinovic: "Yes, sir."

24 And then Mladic states: "Fire one more salvo at the Presidency."

25 And Vukasinovic says: "Yes, General sir."

Page 25398

1 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, isn't this another reflection of the extensive

2 shelling of Muslim areas by Bosnian Serb forces in -- during this period

3 of time, in roughly May of 1992?

4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, there is a difference involved. You said the 14th

5 of May and I focused on the 14th of May to explain what the situation was,

6 and this is the 28th of May, when the barracks were dislocated. Remember?

7 When the Muslims did not honour the agreement reached. But this is the

8 first place where I heard this conversation. I don't know about the 28th

9 of May. Well, if I'm supposed to explain, I can only relate this to when

10 the column was cut in two, when they were dislocating the barracks, and I

11 remember hearing the voice, but on the 18th of May, the agreement was

12 reached and then on the 20th, the column was cut off and they did not

13 honour the agreement. Maybe that was it. I don't know what the reason

14 was. And I didn't know that this was done.

15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you were asked about the massive bombardment of

16 Sarajevo during the course of your examination-in-chief and in response,

17 you said that you really couldn't identify such a thing although there was

18 talk about that. You were generally unfamiliar with that. Now, are you

19 telling the Court that now there was massive bombardment of Sarajevo of

20 which you were aware?

21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I'm afraid that either the interpreters are not

22 interpreting my words properly or you're twisting my words. I remember

23 exactly what I said. You asked me about one particular shelling that a

24 protected witness here talked about. You asked me about a testimony. And

25 I said that I do not remember what he said. I can't remember the exact

Page 25399

1 date when this was. I really don't. There is this particular conclusion

2 that states for political reasons do not shell or do not respond to

3 gunfire. I did not know about the shelling that was referred to here,

4 without a particular date that was -- without giving a particular

5 reference, a date. Now, that's what I'm talking about.

6 Now, are you asking me do I know whether Sarajevo was shelled? I

7 heard about that. I mean, heard about it. I heard about it from

8 foreigners who were telling me that Sarajevo was being shelled, and then

9 the military was saying we are just responding in kind. And we said, for

10 political reasons do not even respond because this is a hindrance to our

11 conference, because we kept getting that answer all the time, that they

12 are attacking us and that they are defending us. That is what our

13 military told us when this was a hindrance in the conference. But you

14 asked me only about one particular testimony, and that's the only answer I

15 gave. So I will answer every question you may have, but let us know what

16 we are talking about.

17 And I don't like it when people are trying to catch each and every

18 word that I say. We are serious people. I want to say the truth here.

19 I'll tell you everything. I did not say what you said a few minutes ago.

20 I said what I had to say about the testimony of a protected witness, and

21 let me not mention the person's name because you know who this is, that

22 was a witness who gave evidence about some kind of shelling that Mladic

23 had conducted.

24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm just going to let your examination-in-chief

25 stand. It's available to the parties, it's available to the Chamber, it's

Page 25400

1 available to you on tape as well.

2 But let me ask you this: You just heard an intercept with General

3 Mladic saying apply artillery reconnaissance so that they cannot sleep.

4 Drive them crazy. That's an intercept of May 28th, 1992. Before that

5 date, were you aware from any source, including General Mladic, that it

6 was his intention or inclination to engage in shelling of that manner?

7 A. No. And I said that when that witness testified. I said then I

8 wasn't there and I didn't know, and I said it when the witness was here.

9 When he said that allegedly Mr. Karadzic, Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Koljevic, and

10 I were there when Mladic said those words. I didn't know what he was

11 talking about. I was president of the Assembly. What am I to do with

12 him? I couldn't either order it or forbid it.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Krajisnik be asked to speak at a more

14 decent speed that lends itself to interpretation.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you're invited to speak at a lower

16 speed because the interpreters have difficulties in following your

17 velocity.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't go to see my dentist, Your

19 Honour. I forgot. They moved my appointment to Wednesday and I have

20 toothache now and that's why I'm a bit temperamental, but I'll try to

21 speak more slowly.

22 And they asked that you give me permission to make it to that

23 appointment, from 8 to 9 on Wednesday. That's what my doctors asked me to

24 convey.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We will then consider that. That would be --

Page 25401

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The week to come, yes.


4 Q. And Mr. Krajisnik, subsequent to May 12th, were you aware that

5 General Mladic or his forces were engaging in extensive, indiscriminate,

6 and disproportionate shelling of Sarajevo?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, whenever foreigners gave such reports, not to me

8 but to others, to the effect that we were shelling Sarajevo, and whenever

9 we asked the military, the military would always tell us that their

10 infantry was trying to break out through our defence lines and they are

11 responding with artillery. That was always the answer we got. Not I but

12 others. But I mean I was there when they talked. It was senseless,

13 otherwise, to spend so much ammunition and keep men engaged there if you

14 didn't want to take Sarajevo, if that was not your intention. It would

15 have been a waste. I was not responsible for it but I would never have

16 agreed to it.

17 Q. Well my first question, of the two I just asked, Mr. Krajisnik,

18 was about your awareness from any source, including General Mladic, that

19 such shelling and bombardment might be part of his tactical repertoire.

20 And in that connection, let me ask you to turn to the 16th session of the

21 RS Assembly.

22 A. I know that. I know what he said in Knin. He spoke in Knin and

23 people even applauded because they didn't know what that meant. They

24 thought there would be no war in our parts. I heard him speak for three

25 hours.

Page 25402

1 Q. Now, the first passage I want to bring your attention to is found

2 at page 47 of the English and page 8 -- 00847750 of your version,

3 Mr. Krajisnik.

4 A. Yes. I found it.

5 Q. And it's found toward the bottom of the page, about a dozen lines

6 from the bottom or so. And General Mladic states: "I do not want to

7 fight the war like that, to lose men, we will go 400 metres in front of

8 the tank so that the enemy cannot strike the tank with a Zolja or an

9 Osa ... The tank shell has a range of 3 kilometres, a 100 millimetre gun

10 of 3 kilometres, and his sniper can shoot at me from 600 metres. I will

11 put the infantry forward 400 metres in front of the tank to protect the

12 tanks, to protect the artillery. With artillery I will clear the path for

13 the soldiers, what do I care, I do not have to go down volunteer street.

14 I shell him until I have driven him crazy."

15 And one more passage, Mr. Krajisnik, at page 40 of the English and

16 the bottom of 7744 of your version in B/C/S.

17 A. 44.

18 Q. "If we want to make the Muslims surrender, 300 guns must be

19 densely planted around Sarajevo --"

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask, can you give us the

21 reference for that line, please?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very densely printed. I cannot

23 find the line.

24 MR. TIEGER: That will be starting at the very bottom.

25 A. Yes, yes, I found that.

Page 25403

1 Q. And very top of the next page.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I receive some B/C/S on the English channel. There

3 must be --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, Your Honour.


6 MR. TIEGER: And for the benefit of English speakers, it's found

7 at the top portion of page 40, approximately 8 lines down. Seven or eight

8 lines down. And again: "If we want to make the Muslims surrender, 300

9 guns must be densely planted around Sarajevo, of calibre ranging from

10 Zolja 40 to 64 millimetres to Orkan and P65 rockets. And Sarajevo, I

11 don't need any applause, mate. I am not doing it for that or for

12 recognition, I am just doing it to avenge the bones of my dead comrades."

13 And then he goes on to describe the actions he took in Zadar.

14 Mr. Krajisnik, you chaired that session of the Bosnian Serb

15 Assembly on May 12th, 1992, in Banja Luka and you heard General Mladic

16 describe exactly what he proceeded to do. Isn't it therefore correct,

17 Mr. Krajisnik, that General Mladic told the Bosnian Serb Assembly, the

18 Bosnian Serb leadership gathered there, precisely what he intended and was

19 true to his word?

20 A. Yes. Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't find the passage but if you read

21 the line here when he says, "It's genocide; we cannot do that," that's the

22 one I read. And I understood that he's not going to commit genocide.

23 As for the technique of his warfare in Knin, I didn't realise he

24 was going to wage that kind of war in our parts. Read this passage here

25 where he criticised one deputy who said that Muslims should be driven out.

Page 25404

1 And he spoke for three hours. I got tired of listening to him.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I think Mr. Tieger has drawn your

3 attention not to what was supposed to have happened in Knin but what

4 Mr. Mladic said about what he thought should be done for Sarajevo. So

5 would you please -- although now I do understand the last portion of your

6 answer, that you said you were tired of listening at him, does that mean

7 that when he spoke about Sarajevo, that you didn't listen because you were

8 tired at that moment?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I mean, Mr. President,

10 there was this long contribution by Mr. Mladic that got me tired, and my

11 attention was flagging. I don't mean to say that I'm not interested in

12 Sarajevo. I heard a lot of things, good ones and bad ones, but I didn't

13 think he would -- it sounded more like propaganda, it sounded like he was

14 speaking for the benefit of the media. That's what I was trying to say.

15 He said about -- he said what he had done over there and that he would

16 take some equipment and use it around Sarajevo, but eventually he didn't

17 do it. And I remember the passage when he said this is genocide and we

18 cannot do it that way. I remember that. And I remember the passage that

19 concerns Sarajevo, but I understood it all as his propaganda because we

20 were supposed to give him his appointment at that time. I didn't think of

21 it as his plan. He says, I don't need your applause, I want to avenge my

22 fallen comrades. That's what he said. Of course, if we could act with

23 hindsight ...

24 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau was a question for you.

25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik, in this document

Page 25405

1 we see that General Mladic says, and he's talking about the prisoners:

2 "We will capture him and let us not play the game of taking prisoners and

3 so on." [Interpretation] What he's saying all this in a very determined

4 way, and I presume that this must be quite heavy to hear, yes? Do you

5 think that you could intervene, as president of the Assembly? So I would

6 like to ask you the following question: When you are chairing an Assembly

7 session, could you say that you were against such thing? Could you go as

8 far as interrupting? And could you say that such and such things were not

9 bearable, for instance? Did you think that you could play this role?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, certainly, I could, but as far

11 as I remember - because I didn't read this - he spoke about mercenaries

12 that, according to Geneva Conventions, maybe killed. At least, in his

13 interpretation. I don't know where it is written, but I don't think he

14 was talking about Muslim prisoners. I would like to see that passage. I

15 think -- I mean, I'm sure that he was talking about mercenaries. Under

16 Geneva Conventions --

17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Could you please take the text

18 that was read by the Prosecutor. It is the line that follows this text.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't find it. I didn't find

20 that passage.

21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [In English] "I shell him until I have driven him

22 crazy. Once we have driven him crazy he will either flee of his own

23 accord, or, he doesn't even have to run away. Once we have approached we

24 will capture him, and let us not play the game of taking prisoners."

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's a different page. That's

Page 25406

1 why I couldn't speak about it.

2 Sorry, let me just try to find it.

3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, maybe you could

4 give us the number of the B/C/S page, please.

5 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, I should have done that. It's

6 00847750, and perhaps I can find the -- and it would be toward the very

7 bottom of that page.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had 44. He told me 44. That's

9 where I looked for it.

10 Yes. See here, he says: "Well done. Where is he? Do you want

11 me to send him over to you? Keep him there. What do I want him for?" I

12 remember well that he was talking about mercenaries from abroad even

13 though I was speaking from memory.

14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Excuse me but I did ask you a

15 question which was as follows: When you hear these kind of statements,

16 and these statements were quite heavy, and these statements are not the

17 type of statements that can reconcile people, I did ask you whether, as

18 chairman of the Assembly, you thought that you could be the person who

19 could intervene or could interrupt the session. Could you say that maybe

20 people could have -- could talk differently in order not to poison the

21 situation? I'm just asking you whether you thought, at the time, that it

22 was possible, whether they are talking about mercenaries or Canadian, the

23 fact is that they were talking about killing prisoners, so this is quite

24 heavy. I don't know how you went through this but you were the president

25 of the Assembly. Could you have intervened and said, "Please, I do not

Page 25407

1 want to hear such things, could you please talk in a different way"?

2 Could you do it?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, I couldn't do

4 anything. I could just not agree. I heard hundreds of heavier, worse

5 things at Assembly sessions because people seem to think that a democracy

6 is being allowed to tell whatever you please. It was such an atmosphere,

7 and what mattered really were conclusions. In times of war you cannot

8 tell a person, What are you talking about? Because he thinks it's his

9 right. He managed to convince me here - and I remember his speech - that

10 he had a right under the Geneva Conventions to kill a mercenary. I

11 personally would never approve of that. I would never allow him to kill a

12 man. But I remember the justification that he gave. But I neither agreed

13 nor was I able to forbid anything. We could just talk at that Assembly

14 and go our separate ways. All I could do was chair that Assembly and try

15 to come to a high quality outcome, because, you see, people had lost

16 family members - somebody lost a brother, somebody a mother - they were

17 just venting. They were talking all sorts of things. And whenever you

18 try to say anything in favour of the Muslims, they would accuse you of

19 defending them. What really mattered for me was to arrive at good

20 conclusions. I couldn't prevent anybody from doing anything. It's not

21 that I didn't want to. I was trying to lead a wartime parliament that

22 sometimes sounded as being full of warmongers. All I could say to him

23 was, "What are you talking about?"

24 JUDGE ORIE: I have one additional question to Mr. Krajisnik. You

25 earlier said it was language used by Mr. Mladic because he didn't need

Page 25408

1 applause, he needed to be appointed. So this is the kind of language you

2 considered to be promotional for being appointed? Is that how I have to

3 understand it, that this is the type of language you would consider to be

4 supporting a future appointment by Mr. Mladic?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he was not seeking appointment,

6 he was already appointed. But it was only propaganda. He was trying to

7 come across as a great military leader, and that's what his reputation

8 was. That's what he was trying to do. But he was also saying some good

9 things here, like that he went to his village and managed to reconcile

10 Muslims and Serbs. He said there should be no killing, there should be no

11 expulsions. He said good things and bad things. It's a very long speech.

12 You can read it. There are a lot of things lumped together.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Mr. Krajisnik said one

14 thing at the end of his previous answer that we did not manage to

15 pronounce - he speaks very fast - and that is Mr. Mladic was a legend, and

16 if I had said something to him he could have responded with a "What the

17 hell do you know?"

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


20 Q. Could we turn next to tab 157, please.

21 MR. TIEGER: This will need a number, Your Honour.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1229, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, this will have to be read aloud; I see

25 there is no translation. I should also indicate to the Court in

Page 25409

1 connection with the newspaper articles of yesterday from December, 1991,

2 and January, 1992, that the translations promised have been provided to

3 the Court and we will endeavour to do precisely the same -- or that we

4 have them here for distribution and will endeavour to do the same with

5 respect to this.

6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, P1229 is an outgoing cable from UNPROFOR in

7 Belgrade dated 30 May, 1992, and it is a summary of a meeting with

8 President Milosevic held on 30 May, 1992, at 1200 hours. And I'll

9 summarise it quickly for you and then read out slowly any -- any

10 particular passages to which I want to bring your attention.

11 First paragraph indicates that the meeting was requested by

12 UNPROFOR to convey to President Milosevic the Secretary-General's message

13 and that Morillon, MacKenzie and Auger were there on behalf of UNPROFOR.

14 In the second paragraph, it reflects General Morillon's advisement

15 to President Milosevic about the Secretary-General's action in response to

16 the appeal of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the request to

17 President Milosevic to use his influence with General Mladic to stop the

18 bombardment of Sarajevo. President Milosevic expressed his complete

19 disagreement with General Mladic's action, indicated that they had done

20 their utmost to persuade him to stop the bombardment, and then it states:

21 "While he could understand fighting in self-defence, there was no

22 justification for the continued bombardment of the civilian population of

23 Sarajevo. This was moreover not in the interest of Yugoslavia nor of the

24 Bosnian Serbs."

25 President -- and then the third paragraph, and it's the last one

Page 25410

1 I'll turn your attention to: "President Milosevic indicated also that he

2 had been trying to contact Mr. Karadzic to see if he could use his

3 influence to stop the 'bloody, criminal' bombardment." And that is

4 "bloody, criminal" bombardment. "He had so far not been able to do so.

5 At our request, he promised to inform us of the outcome of his

6 conversation with Karadzic when he is able to contact him."

7 Mr. Krajisnik, this is a reflection, is it not, of the fact that

8 the bombardment of Sarajevo was continuing through May and was known not

9 only to those in Sarajevo but indeed outside the borders of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina?

11 MR. JOSSE: In my submission, Mr. Krajisnik needs to read the

12 whole of this document. I've had a chance to scan it; it needs to be read

13 in context.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock. Would it be a good idea if

15 we would give an opportunity for Mr. Krajisnik to do that during the

16 break? Mr. Krajisnik --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is in English. I can't read

18 it.


20 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm told we can secure a

21 B/C/S version in short order so that Mr. Krajisnik can have it at the

22 break.

23 JUDGE ORIE: If we then can have this printed out, if it's -- as I

24 do understand, it's sent to Mr. Registrar, then we'll give Mr. Krajisnik

25 the opportunity to read it in the original.

Page 25411

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know anything

2 about this report or this bombardment. I could only interpret it not much

3 better than you could. I don't know what I could possibly say in comment.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, Defence counsel of the accused has

5 asked that you as a witness could have a look at this document as a whole

6 and therefore questions will be put to you by Mr. Tieger, and the Chamber

7 is following the suggestion of Defence counsel. So therefore, you as a

8 witness get an opportunity to read this document in B/C/S.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

10 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, one other observation: We are firmly of

11 the view that Mr. Krajisnik also needs a good break. It is --

12 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand.

13 MR. JOSSE: It's a subject we may return to, in fact, after the

14 break, but we make that observation strongly at this juncture.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You did not know how long a break I had in

16 mind, Mr. Josse. I was intending to extend it for three minutes so that

17 Mr. Krajisnik would have both his break and time to read. Therefore,

18 Mr. Registrar, if you could give the B/C/S document to Madam Usher, and so

19 that the B/C/S version is given to Mr. Krajisnik so that he can read it,

20 and we'll have a break until 20 minutes past 4.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 4.32 p.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I was informed that you wanted to address

24 the Chamber.

25 MR. JOSSE: I'll make this brief, Your Honour. Could I first of

Page 25412

1 all emphasise the matter I'm about to raise has not been discussed with

2 Mr. Krajisnik at all. It's this: The Defence team contemplated what I'm

3 about to say overnight. We were concerned yesterday about our client's

4 general condition, demeanour, his ability to concentrate, and quite

5 frankly, the quality of his answers. We decided as a team to see how he

6 got on during the course of the first session today. In our submission,

7 the situation has not improved. If anything, it's got worse. We had no

8 idea about the toothache that he mentioned during the course of his

9 evidence earlier. We note the comments on at least two occasions from the

10 interpreters about the speed of his answers. He has been unable to find

11 the place that he's been taken to, generally, with great care by my

12 learned friend, with regularity; i.e., unable to find the place with

13 regularity. Again, the general quality of his answers give rise to real

14 concern.

15 To state the obvious, Your Honour, the ordeal of being in the

16 witness box for many consecutive days, save weekends and two bank holidays

17 is physically exhausting and draining. That is compounded, in our

18 submission, manyfold when the witness is the accused and that accused

19 faces charges such as those that Mr. Krajisnik faces in this courtroom.

20 The matter is further compounded by the hours of after-court work

21 that Mr. Krajisnik clearly does in relation to his own case and his

22 testimony.

23 The Defence ask, in effect, for the Trial Chamber to weigh these

24 various factors up and not sit tomorrow. As I say, Your Honour, I kept

25 these submissions short. Mr. Krajisnik is not aware that I was going to

Page 25413

1 say these particular matters, but we do have genuine concerns about the

2 matter, and putting it colloquially, we submit that he really is flagging,

3 and it's not surprising bearing in mind the ordeal that he's going

4 through.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before I give an opportunity for the Defence --

6 for the Prosecution to make whatever observations they would like to make,

7 first I'm addressing you, Mr. Krajisnik. You've heard that Mr. Josse said

8 that they -- the Defence team got the impression that your condition was

9 such that we should not sit tomorrow and there was a general concern

10 expressed about your condition, both physically and mentally. I would

11 first like to know from you yourself, since of course there was no

12 opportunity to discuss this with you, whether you consider your own

13 condition such that a break in your testimony, at least for the day asked

14 for, I'm not -- because that's the only thing at this moment Mr. Josse

15 asked for, whether you would consider this to be a measure the Court

16 should take. And just to tell you what approximately the criterion would

17 be is that this Chamber wants to proceed, but if there -- if it would be

18 inappropriate to proceed tomorrow because of your condition, we have to

19 consider not to proceed tomorrow. But therefore it's not a question of

20 whether it's more convenient or whether it is -- because the Chamber fully

21 understands that testifying for so many days in your own case is certainly

22 asking a lot from you. To some extent, of course, this is the consequence

23 of your choice to testify in your own case, but that would be

24 approximately where we have to strike a balance, but I would first like to

25 know whether, first of all, whether you have any observations to make in

Page 25414

1 respect of your own condition at this moment, that is physically and

2 mentally; and second, whether what consequences your observations in

3 relation to your condition, in your view, should have, as far as sitting

4 tomorrow is concerned. Could you please try to answer this rather long

5 question, or these two questions.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am struggling for

7 freedom here, and for my honour. I'm not even interested in my health or

8 in my life. I'm interested in my honour and freedom. I'm annoyed when

9 somebody does not believe something that I am saying as the truth, and

10 probably my Defence saw that. I'm making an effort and I'm asking to be

11 able to explain so that I could convince the Trial Chamber and others, and

12 if I'm not allowed to do that, then I'm going to be upset any other day

13 too. I swore to you and to God almighty that I would tell the truth. So

14 that's the point.

15 Fatigue has taken its toll, yes. Perhaps I could focus had I not

16 testified for so long, but when something remains unfinished, and when

17 something can be interpreted against me and I know that is not correct,

18 that upsets me and angers me terribly. That's what I said.

19 What I am like, all of you can see that better than me because

20 people are partial, aren't they? And, of course, when I work late every

21 night in order to gather all this material, then that does have certain

22 effects. But I want the trial to be over as soon as possible. Of course,

23 I don't want to meddle with these professional duties because lawyers and

24 you see this much better. If a break is necessary, then all right. But

25 the effect is that when I cannot show this thing about Russian automatic

Page 25415

1 weapons and Arkan's men and whatever, then I get really upset because I

2 feel that there is something hanging in the air and I know it's not

3 correct. And I cannot correct all of that at the end of my testimony.

4 Then I'd need five days.

5 I am not guilty and that is why I'm struggling. So it is up to

6 you and the Prosecutor to decide what you feel is best.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger?

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you have not pointed at specific

10 physical difficulties you are at this moment experiencing. You explained

11 to us what makes you upset now and then during your testimony. One very

12 specific question: Earlier today you were talking about your toothache.

13 Would that, because it's the only specific complaint about physical not

14 feeling well, would that cause you to ask for a further delay? I'm just

15 now concentrating on this.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll have a toothache tomorrow and

17 the day after tomorrow, all the way up to Wednesday, Your Honour. On

18 Wednesday I go to see the dentist. I want to be set free as soon as

19 possible, and when I'm free, then I can see the dentist any time I like.

20 Here I have to wait for a fortnight before I can see a dentist, for

21 instance.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You share that fate sometimes with some other

23 people in the Netherlands, as I'm aware of. But my question, listening to

24 your answer, I do not understand your answer to be that the toothache is

25 such that you would prefer for that reason not to sit until you have

Page 25416

1 consulted the dentist. Is that a correct understanding?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The toothache will be there Monday,

3 Tuesday, then that would mean that I shouldn't work on Monday or Tuesday.

4 I know that I have this medicine inside and until that is removed and the

5 crown placed, I know that I'm going to have a tooth problem. Perhaps it

6 also results in some psychological problems, as my lawyers can see. I

7 cannot see that because I'm partial.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you inform us about the medicine you get

9 for your toothache. If you want to do it in private session, of course,

10 then --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. This was treatment of

12 the nerve. The nerve was extracted and then this medicine was put in, and

13 now that should be taken out and a crown placed.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you know what the medicine is? Do you know

15 a name or --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honour. The nerve is

17 no longer there. It was opened, this canal, and then they put this

18 medicine in, and I don't know what this medicine is, and then they treat

19 it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You'll understand the reason why I'm asking,

21 Mr. Krajisnik, is because the Chamber wants to be satisfied that this

22 medication does not influence your ability to testify, but since you do

23 not know exactly what this medicine is --

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, does the Prosecution want to make any

Page 25417

1 observations in relation to what Mr. Josse said and what Mr. Krajisnik

2 told us?

3 MR. TIEGER: Well, of course, Your Honour, the Prosecution is not

4 in a particular position to make an assessment of Mr. Krajisnik's physical

5 or mental condition that would be of particular utility to the Court

6 beyond what the Court has been trying to seek from Mr. Krajisnik and

7 perhaps beyond the observations of his counsel who have worked with

8 him before. The Prosecution just wants to make sure that it's -- that we

9 are clear on what the issue is and what the answers are. Mr. Josse seemed

10 to raise the issue of Mr. Krajisnik's fitness to proceed based on his

11 observations. I know the Court tried to inquire of Mr. Krajisnik to get

12 as much of a definitive response as possible. I understood

13 Mr. Krajisnik's response to be in large part used as an opportunity to

14 express views related to other things. He did make some allusions to

15 fatigue or his condition or to deferring to the judgement of his Defence

16 counsel, so I just want to make sure that the Court is clear on whether

17 Mr. Krajisnik's view is that he's in a suitable condition to proceed or

18 not. I don't want to see a situation where he's in a position to later

19 say, well, I thought I mentioned that my -- that I was tired or that I'm

20 -- and in the course of a longer answer that wasn't directed solely to

21 that issue. So that's my only observation at the moment.


23 Mr. Krajisnik, you've heard what Mr. Josse said. You were given

24 an opportunity to make your own observations. You've now heard what

25 Mr. Tieger said. Is there anything you would like to add at this moment

Page 25418

1 to what has been said so that the Chamber can take that into consideration

2 when it will consider the matter?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't wish to say anything. Thank

4 you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I see you're on your feet.

6 MR. JOSSE: Very briefly, Your Honour. I, with respect,

7 appreciate entirely the inquiry that has come from the Bench in relation

8 to Mr. Krajisnik's physical condition and the medication that he is

9 taking. And that's a proper inquiry to make and one that we fully

10 support. However, the thrust of my submission was more in relation to

11 general demeanour and, to use Mr. Krajisnik's word, fatigue. And

12 Mr. Krajisnik said, "Fatigue has taken its toll, yes. Perhaps I could

13 focus had I not testified for so long." And that is the primary point

14 that we on his behalf were making in the submission earlier. And that's

15 our primary point.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. The Chamber will consider the

17 matter and most likely we'll come back to it after the next break.

18 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.


21 Q. First, Mr. Krajisnik, did you have an opportunity to review the

22 document that was referred to shortly before we took the break?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, as I indicated in my earlier question, that document reflects

25 that the ongoing bombardment of Sarajevo was known to many people and even

Page 25419

1 those outside not only Sarajevo but the borders of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 First of all, did you -- well, let me ask you more directly: Were you not

3 aware of this ongoing bombardment of Sarajevo at that time?

4 A. Today I said when the shelling took place I didn't know that there

5 was shelling on the 28th of May, and when the witness was here I did not

6 know that that was the date that the witness was talking about.

7 Q. Are you suggesting that there was just one date on which Sarajevo

8 was shelled?

9 A. I'm telling you about this shelling, the one that you're talking

10 about, the 28th of May. Today, I found out that on the 28th of May there

11 was shelling. We discussed shelling at a later session. We talked about

12 shelling. And the first session of the Presidency was after the 12th of

13 May, it was on the 31st of May. You saw that, a consultive meeting. And

14 then on the 2nd or 3rd of June we discussed shelling and there is some

15 conclusion about that. Mladic attended that meeting as well.

16 Q. We'll get to that, Mr. Krajisnik. You said two things, in

17 particular, during the course of your examination-in-chief. You said on

18 the 23rd of May, at approximately page 69: "I can't identify any major

19 shelling, particularly not with regard to Sarajevo's division."

20 And you also said on the 24th of May, as I indicated earlier, in

21 responding to testimony about the shelling of Sarajevo: "... whether

22 something like that happened or not, nor do I know. There was this

23 accusation all the time about Sarajevo being shelled and there were

24 exchanges of gun-fire, but really I cannot remember anything special."

25 A. Yes. That's exactly what I said and that's exactly what I think.

Page 25420

1 When there was this discussion at the consultative meeting, it wasn't

2 about any kind of large-scale shelling. It had to do with the complaints

3 of the international community, and Mr. Koljevic talked about this and we

4 wanted to have observers next to every one of our artillery pieces. You

5 can find that in all the records of the Presidency.

6 Q. Well, let me ask you to look at the next exhibit and see if that

7 constitutes something special. That would be found at tab 159.

8 MR. TIEGER: These are two video clips, Your Honour, with the

9 accompanying transcript. And the dates can be seen on the transcript;

10 June 7th and June 9th.

11 Perhaps -- Your Honour, the transcript and the video clip will

12 need numbers.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The first one, Your Honours, dated 7 June, 1992,

15 would be P1230A; and the other one, dated 9 June, 1992, will be P1230B.

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, whenever the Court is ready.


18 MR. TIEGER: Then if we can proceed.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, we will need to start again, I think. I

21 don't know what you're receiving. I can see it on this monitor but not on

22 the -- now I see it. If we could begin once more.


24 [Videotape played]

25 "It was the symbol of modern Sarajevo. Now of its destruction.

Page 25421

1 Flames tear across the floors and up into the highest storeys, showering

2 debris onto the streets at the heart of the Bosnian capital. The

3 disintegration of one of the city's UNIS towers reflected in the broken

4 windows of its twin.

5 "300 metres on, across the road, the parliament of this newly

6 independent state is also struck.

7 "It doesn't burn but the nearby Marshal Tito barracks do. Since

8 its evacuation two days earlier, it's being systematically destroyed.

9 Every night in Sarajevo you think it can't get worse, but it does, making

10 a mockery of attempts of mediators to bring peace to this city which is

11 enfolded in war. Less than 24 hours earlier, the Serb commanders had put

12 their signatures on yet another agreement affirming a truce never adhered

13 to, and their readiness to reopen the airport. Now, the Serb gunners in

14 the hills show where their true commitment lies. Under a sickle moon, the

15 city rocks to the explosions, lit up by fire and the mass of glowing

16 sparks that drift across its roofs."

17 MR. TIEGER: Next will be P1230B.

18 [Videotape played]

19 "Sarajevo is burning, in its heart and in its suburbs.

20 "Suddenly on Sunday night the whole city becoming the target, no

21 district spared. All shaking as every ten seconds the rocket shells and

22 mortars land. The fire so heavy, so incessant that the deadly streams of

23 light criss-cross each other."


25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you said you couldn't recall anything special with

Page 25422

1 regard to shelling that occurred. Was what we just saw such a regular

2 event that it no longer struck you as special?

3 A. I was not following this shelling of Sarajevo at all, this one of

4 the 7th and the other one of the 28th. Through Mrs. Plavsic and

5 Mr. Koljevic, I heard that there were complaints that Sarajevo was being

6 shelled. That's what foreigners told them. And there are sessions of the

7 Presidency that show what we concluded. That is what I know. Pale, where

8 I was, is 30 kilometres away from Sarajevo.

9 Q. So the action taken --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Excuse me, Judge Hanoteau has a question.

11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Excuse me, sir. You've use the

12 worked "foreigners" twice. What does that mean exactly in your mind? You

13 used this same word twice today, this afternoon. What do you mean by

14 that? What does "foreigner" mean when you use that word?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, representatives of the

16 UNPROFOR, General MacKenzie. MacKenzie met with Koljevic.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


19 Q. When did you first hear complaints by foreigners about the

20 shelling of Sarajevo?

21 A. I don't remember any complaints that I received myself, but I got

22 news from Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Koljevic and Mrs. Plavsic, news of such

23 meetings. I believe I attended one meeting with General Morillon, with

24 Mrs. Plavsic, but we discussed other topics, such as humanitarian

25 organisations, but I never met with General MacKenzie. I never talked to

Page 25423

1 him. I know that we sought a UN observer to stand next to every soldier

2 of ours because our military were telling us that we were only returning

3 fire and we demanded from the UN that they place their observers. It's

4 somewhere on record. I remember reading it. Because we were convinced

5 that what the military were telling us was the truth.

6 Q. Now, you referred to action taken by the Presidency. If you turn

7 to tab 160, please. It's a document that has been seen before. These are

8 the minutes of the 4th Expanded Meeting of the War Presidency of the

9 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 9th of June, 1992. Present

10 at that session are Dr. Karadzic, Dr. Plavsic, Dr. Koljevic, yourself,

11 Mr. Djeric, and General Mladic, Gvero and Tolimir are also there. After a

12 briefing by General Mladic in detail about the overall situation, and a

13 briefing by General Gvero on the situation in the area of the Banja Luka

14 Corps, the Presidency concluded a number of things, including that the

15 heavy artillery fire on the town be halted.

16 Now, that's a decision by the Presidency to cease the bombardment

17 of Sarajevo on that date; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, yes. Correct. There are items here and I can explain all of

19 them. Well, that's exactly what I wanted to explain, and I can go through

20 this item by item to tell you what transpired. This is the record that I

21 had referred to earlier.

22 Q. Well, at the moment, Mr. Krajisnik, as you can see, I'm not asking

23 you to go through item by item. I'm focusing on the third conclusion,

24 that the heavy artillery fire on the town be halted.

25 A. Yes, correct. Because the military said, as it's written up here,

Page 25424

1 that there is command out of control, or uncontrolled command, and all

2 this is geared at putting all command under control and stopping the

3 shelling of the city. And they were telling us, We were just returning

4 fire. That's what the entire discussion was about. And you will see that

5 if you read this record, that everything focused on this point, the four

6 barracks, et cetera. This is the record of the Presidency session that I

7 meant.

8 Q. Before that time, Mr. Krajisnik, had you or any other of those

9 present, other than General Mladic and General Gvero and Colonel Tolimir,

10 made any effort to determine the extent of the bombardment and the extent

11 of the ordnance that was being dropped on Sarajevo, from the May 14th

12 bombardment that Mrs. Plavsic complained about to Radmila, all the way

13 through to the continuing bombardment referred to by Mr. Milosevic, and

14 the bombardment that we saw on the video?

15 A. There were people in charge of cooperation with the UNPROFOR, as

16 far as I remember. Primarily it was Mr. Koljevic who contacted with

17 Mr. MacKenzie. Mrs. Plavsic handled one part of the coordination

18 concerning humanitarian affairs. Not all of us were in contact with the

19 UNPROFOR. And what probably happened was that a complaint was received

20 and, when the military representatives came, we had a discussion and they

21 gave their reasons why that was being done. I don't remember anything

22 about intensity or exact amounts, but I remember that this discussion was

23 initiated by complaints made to our side by foreigners. And if these

24 conclusions had not been adopted, I'm sure I would have rebelled against

25 this, because if any shelling is being done, that's a crime, and it's not

Page 25425

1 only that it's a crime, it's that it's politically damaging, as

2 Mr. Milosevic said, for both sides, independently of the crime that is

3 being committed.

4 And there is another record where it said that observers should be

5 brought in to control it, to act as verifiers, and we agreed to all of

6 that.

7 Q. Thereafter, Mr. Krajisnik, that is after the 9th of June, the

8 bombardment was resumed, wasn't it?

9 A. I don't know. I'm telling you, if it's on record, then of course

10 complaints must have been made. Bring the record here. Of course, there

11 must have been complaints through the usual channels, and we adopted the

12 same conclusions. I know that we made a request for UN observers to be

13 placed next to every artillery piece because our military was constantly

14 telling us that they are only responding to fire from Muslims.

15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik --

16 A. You can find that record. I don't know which one that is.

17 Q. Turn, please, to tab 161.

18 MR. TIEGER: This is a statement by the Secretary-General to the

19 Security Council on 26 June, 1992, Your Honours. It will need a number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1231, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


23 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, as indicated, this is a statement to the Security

24 Council by the Secretary-General on the 26th of June, 1992, stating: "I

25 regret to inform the Council that the situation in Sarajevo has

Page 25426

1 deteriorated considerably today. The Bosnian Serb forces have increased

2 their bombardment of the area of Dobrinja, a suburb of Sarajevo close to

3 the airport. UNPROFOR has reported that tank and infantry attacks were

4 carried out and heavy artillery has been used against the civilian

5 population. While the forces of the Presidency of the government of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina have retaliated with attacks on two Serb-held areas,

7 UNPROFOR has no doubt that the primary responsibility for the current

8 bloodshed lies with the Serb forces, who are clearly pursuing their

9 attempt to capture Dobrinja. This is occurring despite an agreement made

10 public yesterday by the Serb side to stop shelling civilian areas and to

11 abide by a unilateral cease-fire."

12 First of all, Mr. Krajisnik, do you or do you not recall that

13 bombardment in the latter part of June, 1992, in the area of Dobrinja?

14 A. I remember the armed conflict around Dobrinja. Not shelling,

15 though. I remember fighting around Dobrinja. I don't know if it was

16 exactly on this date, but I do remember.

17 Q. And that fighting, in the area of Dobrinja, was an effort by

18 Bosnian Serb forces to consolidate the areas that they already held into

19 one portion, correct?

20 A. Well, Dobrinja is a settlement on the outskirts, an urban

21 settlement, held by Muslims. There were Serbs there but consolidation was

22 out of the question there, and it remained in Muslim hands after the war,

23 with a very small piece held by Serbs. It was a suburb. It was just

24 fighting in that suburb. I don't know who started it and I don't know who

25 did what.

Page 25427

1 Q. What do you mean "it was just fighting"? Just people fighting for

2 reasons completely unknown to you, without any purpose, without any

3 tactical objective?

4 A. I'm saying that fighting went on throughout the war, in which one

5 side would attack, the other side would defend itself, always on the line

6 of separation, of demarcation. One thing is certain: Each time one side

7 wanted to take control of one territory, the other side wanted to defend

8 it. Of course everybody had their own different objectives.

9 Q. The Secretary-General's statement makes reference to a unilateral

10 cease-fire, and you made reference earlier today to cease-fires.

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Why was that cease-fire broken?

13 A. The best thing to do is to take this video and the statement of

14 Mr. MacKenzie where he said that there were 19 cease-fires, all 19 of them

15 broken by Muslims. We saw it here. I don't know who violated

16 cease-fires, but we have his statement on tape. If there is anything else

17 about it, tell me. I saw that video clip and I reviewed his statement in

18 prison. There were 19 cease-fires, and all 19 were violated by the

19 Muslims, according to him, and he was the Commander-in-Chief.

20 Q. Did you ever hear or express any views about the purpose and use

21 of cease-fires by Bosnian Serb representatives, either in the Assembly or

22 elsewhere?

23 A. I don't remember, but I don't rule it out. We always wanted

24 cease-fires in order to continue negotiations. Of course, there were

25 probably talks. If you have a specific example, let's discuss it. But

Page 25428

1 let me not answer the question: We can hear what General MacKenzie said.

2 We have the video clip.

3 Q. Well, at the moment, Mr. Krajisnik, we are determining --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, Mr. Krajisnik is referring several times

5 to a statement of General MacKenzie. I hope you'll forgive me but I don't

6 have it just on the top of my mind what he's referring to. I take it that

7 it is in evidence. Or is it not?

8 MR. TIEGER: I don't have a specific recollection at this moment

9 either, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we please try to find out so that we can

11 properly assess the importance of Mr. Krajisnik's testimony in this

12 respect.

13 Mr. Krajisnik, do you remember whether it was ever played here in

14 this courtroom, the statement you're referring to?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That's why I gave

16 you my DVD, and that statement of his is on that DVD. I first saw it when

17 in prison.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If copies are made of the DVD, if there is any

19 transcript of any statement of General MacKenzie, the Chamber would like

20 to look at it.

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've got all the CDs, DVDs on my hard

22 drive. If Mr. Krajisnik just makes it clear whether he's talking about

23 today's or yesterday's, then that would help.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is it the last series you gave us this morning,

25 Mr. Krajisnik?

Page 25429

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I ask, was it one of the five from

3 yesterday, was it?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Was it yesterday or don't you remember exactly when

5 you gave it?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think yesterday, certainly not

7 today. I keep giving ever-new CDs, so I'm not sure. I think it was 11/1.

8 MR. STEWART: We will find it, Your Honour. If it's there, we'll

9 find it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like to ask you,

11 Mr. Tieger talked about, from what I understood, a unilateral cease-fire

12 when he put a question to you, and said why was it violated? And then you

13 said you should ask -- you should look at Mr. MacKenzie's cease-fire.

14 That may well be. I take it that Mr. MacKenzie has referred to any

15 cease-fire which was violated by the Muslims. That means that the Muslims

16 committed, either unilaterally or through an agreement, to a cease-fire

17 which then, as you said, Mr. MacKenzie said that they violated. But here

18 if we are talking about a unilateral announced Serb cease-fire, then it

19 needs an explanation why this unilateral cease-fire was violated. Do you

20 know? If so, please tell us. If you don't know, please tell us as well.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know but I can guess.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let's stay out of guessing.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I had asked you whether or not you were aware of

Page 25430

1 the Bosnian Serb view about cease-fires and how they might be used, and I

2 think you said at that point, well, if there is such a statement, let's

3 look at it.

4 Let's turn, then, to -- back to the 16th session of the Bosnian

5 Serb Assembly on May 12th.

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if we could turn to page 22 of the

7 English and 00847730 of the B/C/S.

8 Q. You'll find the portion, Mr. Krajisnik - I'll wait until you get

9 to the page - at the top half of the page, about ten lines down from the

10 top.

11 This is Dr. Kalinic speaking. After saying: "In other words, we

12 must limit ourselves to what is militarily achievable. Also, I do not

13 understand fully this statement, and I want it to be clarified here in

14 this Assembly, what would the proclamation of a unilateral cease-fire mean

15 for us. The reason stated was that by doing this, we would demonstrate to

16 Europe that we are in favour of negotiations and a peaceful solution, but

17 please, since we are in a closed session of the Assembly, let us make it

18 clear: if we need a unilateral cease-fire to consolidate our armed forces

19 and military forces, and I suspect that this may be the case, it should be

20 made clear that this is just a statement for external public use. This

21 statement may easily confuse our people, may inspire a certain degree of

22 desertion, which would imply that we are slowly giving up on the warriors'

23 military solution."

24 A. Yes, please. I read it. Go ahead.

25 Q. That was an expression of the tactical use of an announced

Page 25431

1 cease-fire for external political reasons which would allow Bosnian Serb

2 forces, knowing that it was just used for that purpose, to consolidate.

3 Isn't that right?

4 A. No, no, Mr. Prosecutor. I have to remind you of the statement of

5 Mladic of the 13th of May when he said, in talking to Mr. Unkovic, we

6 simply have to observe the cease-fire. Mr. Kalinic was saying this in

7 resignation. He also said things like, We have to go to war, we have to

8 win. I commented on this earlier. Find that conversation and you will

9 see what Mladic meant when he talked to Unkovic on the 13th of May 1992.

10 He said we have to observe unilateral cease-fires. It was just a day

11 later. And that was our pure intention, to keep negotiating even while

12 the war was going on. Negotiations were very important to us. Whatever

13 people may have said here, negotiations were very important to us, and we

14 didn't need any war to go on while we were negotiating. Although the

15 matter of individual cease-fires is something different, I agree.

16 Politically, the conference that was interrupted at this time on the 12th

17 of May was necessary.

18 Q. Did you, in light of what you have just said about its importance,

19 did you after Dr. Kalinic's remarks, say to the members of the Assembly,

20 "No, Dr. Kalinic is wrong and don't be misled into thinking that the

21 announcement of a cease-fire is for external purposes only. We really

22 mean it and intend to abide by it," or words to that effect?

23 A. I have already said, to esteemed Judge Hanoteau what the role of

24 the speaker of the Assembly was. You know the example of that first

25 session of the Assembly. People came with war on their minds from all

Page 25432

1 sides to that first session. And if I had said to each of them what I

2 could have said, like, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're

3 wrong, I would have been speaker for 24 minutes only. Maybe I was

4 pursuing tactical tactics. This man had family trapped in a basement.

5 His wife was missing. Maybe he regretted it later, but that's what he

6 said then, as an SDS party member, as an MP from the SDS. I didn't say

7 anything, but of course I didn't think it justified. I didn't think it

8 justified of anybody. I know it's incomprehensible to you because you

9 live in peacetime, but this was war. In war it was very difficult to play

10 arbitrator.

11 Q. Please turn to page 49 of the English and page 37 of the B/C/S,

12 Mr. Krajisnik.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat the number of the page

14 in B/C/S.

15 MR. JOSSE: Not certain if Mr. Krajisnik said Mr. Kalinic was or

16 was not an SDS member. Perhaps that could just be clarified.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Did you say that Mr. Kalinic was an SDS member or

18 that he was not?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wasn't. He was from the

20 Reformist Party, the reformist forces.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then there is a double mistake because the transcript

22 now reads, "That's what he said then as an SDS party member, as an MP from

23 the SDS," but I do understand that we have to understand this reference in

24 our transcript as being a member of the Reformist Party. Is that --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right, yes.

Page 25433

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.


3 Q. The page reference is 00 -- from the B/C/S, 00847752. It's in

4 almost the precise middle of the page, Mr. Krajisnik. You are speaking,

5 addressing the -- and summarising the discussion thus far. And you state

6 - it's also in the middle of the page, at page 49 of the English: "A

7 unilateral proclamation of a cease-fire, in political terms it is quite

8 useful to have the Assembly of the Serbian people adopting, saying, there,

9 we want to do it, see, we are letting the world see, we announce a

10 cease-fire, we shall only defend ourselves, it's not our fault that the

11 Serbs are always under attack, after all it is just an option."

12 First of all, Mr. Krajisnik --

13 A. May I just be allowed to read what I said here? Only briefly.

14 Because this is a summing up.

15 Q. By all means.

16 A. Please go ahead.

17 Q. First of all, Mr. Krajisnik, that is a reflection of or a response

18 to or an acknowledgement of Mr. Kalinic's comments; correct?

19 A. No. Look at the previous sentence when I said Mr. Kalinic is

20 proposing military action, whereas we have to stick to politics. I know

21 exactly what I said to him. I just read it. That is my answer to

22 Mr. Kalinic.

23 Q. Well, we will address the entirety of your remarks, but just above

24 what this, the remark we just referred to, you say, "Although in my heart

25 I believe that Mr. Kalinic is right, because we will surely go to war."

Page 25434

1 And then, shortly afterwards, you raise again the issue of a cease-fire,

2 and at that time, Mr. Krajisnik, you did not, did you, tell the political

3 and military representatives of the Bosnian Serb people that Dr. Kalinic

4 was dead wrong in proposing that cease-fires be used for cynical advantage

5 and for external consumption?

6 A. No. I said the opposite. And that's what is written here. And

7 I'll explain it all. And everything I said is opposite to what you think.

8 And I'll explain all of it. I did not support Kalinic. On the contrary,

9 in a very nice way, I said that those who want to take other people's

10 territories are in favour of a war option. That's what I said. Well, the

11 fact that this is politics is a completely different matter, so if you

12 take things out of context, you can give them a completely different

13 meaning.

14 Q. Page 51 of the English, Mr. Krajisnik, page 38 of the B/C/S, page

15 -- top of page 51.

16 A. Is it the same on the top of my page? Sorry?

17 Q. For you, Mr. Krajisnik, that would be the bottom -- the beginning

18 of about the bottom quarter of the page at 00847753. Approximately a

19 dozen lines from the bottom or so. "We are at war, and it will be

20 possible to solve this thing with Muslims and Croats only by war."

21 A. Yes. Please go ahead.

22 Q. That sounds like a war option, Mr. Krajisnik. Isn't that what you

23 were saying?

24 A. No, no, no. It does not sound like a war option. I am saying --

25 well, we are at war. There is a war on. And I'm saying that politics is

Page 25435

1 going to be an instrument for bringing it to an end. War had already

2 broken out. I am trying to summarise this by way of a conclusion that

3 would be rational, and I succeeded in doing that. On the basis of all the

4 belligerent statements made. This is not a conclusion. I am trying to

5 keep people away from this war option and to say that politics will work

6 this out. And that's the way it was.

7 Read it to the end. Politics was an instrument for bringing this

8 to an end. I don't know if I included all of it but I would like to ask

9 you, before we bring all of this to an end, to adopt -- but I would like

10 to ask you, before we bring this to an end, to adopt this and let us not

11 compete amongst ourselves as to who is a greater Serb. See. That is what

12 is what I said to him. Those who love the Serb people should be rational

13 Serbs.

14 Q. I'm just reading on: "Please, if we acquire the territories which

15 we agree on and have conceived of today, plus the corridor we get up

16 there, we will have done, this generation will have done so much for the

17 Serbian people that this debt will be impossible to repay. What will

18 happen in reality, we will leave that to time, but it will be easier to

19 achieve this now, once we establish the Serbian army, which we could have

20 done earlier."

21 A. Well, yes. It was the establishment of the army that was our

22 agenda. So a war was being waged without an army. So that's what I was

23 trying to say. And before this, Mr. Kalinic says Kljujic and Jerko

24 declared that the Muslims had already established the TO. That is to say

25 that they already established a Muslim army. The item on the agenda was

Page 25436

1 the establishment of the army.

2 Q. And, of course, there is no connection between one sentence and

3 the other where you say, Please, if we acquire the territories, and It

4 will be easier to achieve this now once we establish the Serbian army?

5 Those, Mr. Krajisnik, according to you, are utterly unlinked; is that

6 right?

7 A. Well, they are linked. We have a territory. If no one defends it

8 and others attack it, we are not going to safeguard that territory. It

9 says here that we are to defend the territory that is - how should I put

10 this? - that is Serb. It was not established for us to attack. That's

11 what I said. We are not taking what belongs to others. There is a

12 sentence here stating that. We don't need the war option to take what

13 belongs to others. I said here that we were in favour of the political

14 option, not the war option, and that those who want to take the territory

15 belonging to others are in favour of the war option. That's what I said

16 here in the conclusions.

17 Q. No, not what belongs to others, Mr. Krajisnik, just Serbian ethnic

18 territory, including those territories in which Serbs were a minority

19 because of the genocide of World War II, right?

20 A. This sentence, that's written here, that's what I said. That's

21 what I said then. I said those who are in favour of the war option want

22 to take what belongs to others. Whereas we just want our own. That's

23 what it says here. If you want to discuss these other things, then I

24 agree, but what I said is what is written here. If you want to, I will

25 read it out to you.

Page 25437

1 Q. Before the break, Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to go back to our

2 original discussion about the cease-fire, which as we saw from the

3 Secretary-General's statement, was broken on June 26th during the course

4 of operations around Dobrinja. And if I could ask -- well, first of all,

5 those operations, Mr. Krajisnik, were offensive actions, weren't they?

6 Those actions by the Bosnian Serbs.

7 A. No, no. Possibly. I don't know. Probably. I don't know. I

8 don't know what these actions were like. Possibly.

9 Q. Let's look at a document that indicates that in fact you did know,

10 Mr. Krajisnik. That would be tab 167, Your Honour.

11 Tab 167 are the minutes of the 12th session of the Presidency of

12 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is P64, P65, tab 171,

13 Your Honour.

14 At this session of the Presidency, Mr. Krajisnik, as you will see,

15 present were Dr. Koljevic, Mrs. Plavsic, Dr. Djeric, and you.

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. And if we look at item 3 on this session that was held on June

18 27th --

19 A. 27th?

20 Q. 27th.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. We see that on this date, the Main Staff was ordered to cease all

23 artillery and infantry operations in the suburb of Dobrinja, the order is

24 given to dig in and move from offensive to defensive positions.

25 A. Yes, yes. Then we said that all shelling should be stopped

Page 25438

1 because Mr. Koljevic received this kind of information from MacKenzie and

2 he insisted, as far as I can remember, or Mrs. Plavsic -- although, well,

3 this meeting did not have the right to give orders, but it was sort of a

4 warning to the Main Staff, because this was a complaint that came from

5 Mr. MacKenzie. And that's what we did. Quite simply, we reacted. It

6 doesn't have to mean that it was offensive. Only the information received

7 said that it was offensive. Well, maybe it was offensive. I don't know.

8 And what is written here is exactly what you said; that is to say,

9 to move from defence to offence, and so on and so forth.

10 Q. So the chronology is there was a cease-fire declared, it was

11 broken in order to launch offensive operations against Dobrinja, to

12 consolidate the Bosnian Serb hold in that area, there were complaints so

13 significant that the Secretary-General went to the Security Council, and

14 then the Presidency ordered, in response, that the army move from those

15 offensive operations to defensive positions.

16 A. This was a consultative meeting. Mr. Koljevic had had a meeting

17 with Mr. MacKenzie -- or was it Mrs. Plavsic? I don't know exactly. They

18 conveyed what he had said about Dobrinja. And the recording clerk

19 probably wrote down everything he said, and we said that this action had

20 to be ended urgently, if that is what was concluded, and it was concluded

21 this way. I don't even know who began, who started this, and I was not

22 with MacKenzie, I was not on the spot. I don't know. But this was done

23 just in case, because this was politically damaging to us, even if the

24 Muslims had attacked us. This is what it says here, just fire if -- in

25 cases of absolute necessity, because that is what was being said all the

Page 25439

1 time. To this day, this is what soldiers are claiming, that they fired

2 only when attacked.

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I know the Court may have a

4 question but I was watching the clock for the last five minutes. I didn't

5 want to overextend the Court's indulgence.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I had no question at this moment.

7 We'll then have a break until five minutes past 6.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, it has been brought to our attention

11 that you would like to refer to a publication from May, 1993, which you

12 deem relevant in respect of the answer you've given on a Banja Luka

13 television broadcast portion which was put to you by Mr. Tieger. I've

14 asked to have this put on the ELMO so that we -- I hope we can read it.

15 If you would please slowly read, starting just a little bit above the

16 yellow highlighted portion, where we see that a portion is singled out.

17 Can the interpreters see it on the screen? Would you please very slowly

18 read it, Mr. Krajisnik.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "After him, Zeljko Raznjatovic,

20 Arkan, spoke. 'I hope that we will lower tensions and play things down,

21 because I see that there is bad blood between socialists and radicals,'

22 said Raznjatovic, adding that 'Serbs don't need this.' He asked for a new

23 agenda and for every MP to be given the right to speak, because otherwise,

24 MPs nominated by citizens' groups would not have a voice, since they do

25 not belong to any Deputies' Club. 'I'm sorry that the deputies from

Page 25440

1 Republika Srpska did not come, probably because General Mladic forbade

2 them, just as he forbade them in Bijeljina and threatened them against

3 voting as they wished because they all declared themselves, as in old

4 communist times, unanimously against the Vance-Owen Plan,' said

5 Raznjatovic, and asked for a break with the practice of quarrelling and

6 insults and also asking for somebody smart to come up and suggest an

7 agenda."

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that you wanted to draw our

9 attention to this publication because it confirms what you said about that

10 Arkan blamed Mladic for trying to keep people off from attending this

11 Assembly. Is that well -- is that correctly understood, Mr. Krajisnik?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I only made one mistake: It

13 was on the 15th of May, 1993.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all we have now, I think, a better

15 time frame for this television. At the same time, I think, but I might be

16 wrong, that the issue raised by Mr. Tieger was not mainly on what was the

17 reason why Arkan spoke and whether it had got something to do with Arkan

18 blaming Mladic, but he mainly put the question to you, and I think that

19 was the core of the issue, is where you in this television broadcast said

20 something positive about Arkan, what positive you had in mind. I think

21 that was the issue, and I did not, at least not at that moment -- at this

22 moment, understand from Mr. Tieger's questions that he was disputing what

23 had been said by Arkan, as far as blaming Mladic for keeping people off

24 from -- so therefore, let's concentrate on the core of the issue, and this

25 is not the core. The core was a different matter. Yes, okay. Let's

Page 25441

1 proceed at this moment.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. President, you have

3 misunderstood this completely. My explanation, that is.

4 JUDGE ORIE: What I see is that you draw our attention at this

5 moment to a document which supports what you told us about what the issue

6 had been on which you commented at the time, and I -- you have an

7 opportunity at the end of your testimony to add anything to that.

8 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

9 MR. JOSSE: Could I just ask what's going to happen to this

10 newspaper article?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was about to -- it has been read at this

12 moment. It seems to me not be of such vital importance. It's most

13 importantly, I think, is that we have a time frame. Mr. Krajisnik said

14 this was -- I said May, and whether it was 15 or 18, is to me not entirely

15 clear, but that's also not, I would say, a vital issue. So therefore,

16 this portion having been read and therefore being on the record, I would

17 not insist at this moment on having it tendered into evidence. But if any

18 of the parties would take a different view, of course, we'll then decide

19 on admission into evidence.

20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, for that purpose it would be helpful to

21 know the name of the publication and date.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it was --

23 MR. JOSSE: Could I ask that it be marked for identification at

24 the moment, please, Your Honour?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, as a matter of fact, it seems very much

Page 25442

1 to be Politika. Politika, and then whether it's 15th or the 18th of May

2 is not entirely clear to me but it seems at least to be May, 1993, which

3 -- no, it's the 15th of May. It appears from the cover page. It can be

4 marked for identification. Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

5 THE REGISTRAR: D249 MFI, Your Honours.

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, two quick additional matters before they

7 escape my attention. First, the document referred to at the commencement

8 of the session, 01245462, is not in evidence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it needs a number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P12 --

11 MR. TIEGER: It's a document -- it's a D number, document produced

12 by Mr. Krajisnik at the beginning of the session.

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D250, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- could someone remind me exactly on what it

15 was? It was the --

16 MR. TIEGER: I think I understood it to be a session of the

17 government on July 29th, 1992, but I may be wrong about that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Now I do remember. That is the -- yes,

19 that's the -- yes. I've got it here. It is -- it's the cover page and

20 the 9th page of the 43rd session of the government, 29th of July, 1992,

21 and I think we were provided with a translation.

22 MR. JOSSE: There is a translation.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Of the whole of the document or just of the pages?

24 MR. JOSSE: Of the whole of the document.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I take it the whole of the document is there as well

Page 25443

1 so that, if need be, we can look at it in a contextual way rather than

2 just page 1 and page 9.

3 MR. JOSSE: The registrar now has electronically the whole of the

4 document in English. He very helpfully provided me with a hard copy. And

5 as Your Honour knows, well, the Defence have got the whole of the document

6 in B/C/S, as of course do the Prosecution.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So then perhaps better admit the whole -- if it's

8 nine pages, that's -- yes. Then Mr. Tieger, thank you for this

9 information.

10 MR. TIEGER: And one more quick matter in addition, Your Honour.

11 If it wasn't -- the translations have been provided -- from yesterday, of

12 those two newspaper articles, have been provided to the registrar.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like to turn your attention next to a number of

16 intercepts that you addressed during the course of your

17 examination-in-chief on May 17th and May 18th of your testimony. Those

18 are the intercepts involving Mr. Garic, and that will be found at tab 142,

19 Mr. Karisik and Ninkovic, tab 141. And Mr. Milinkovic on -- that's found

20 at -- been distributed, I think.

21 I know you're already familiar with those because you discussed

22 them at some length during your examination-in-chief. And those were

23 intercepts -- at least the -- those were intercepts from April 21st, 1992.

24 And in the course of discussing those intercepts and their significance,

25 you were asked, for example, on the 17th of May, at page 45, beginning

Page 25444

1 line 10: "Mr. Krajisnik, who is Mr. Garic?" You explained: "Mr. Garic

2 is a man from Vraca, that is to say from Novo Sarajevo, whom I knew."

3 Explained that he was an acquaintance. I think you said that Mr. Milenko

4 Karisik was a policeman you knew, at page 47 of May 17th, at lines 5 and

5 6, and indicated that you couldn't recall Mr. Milinkovic's first name or

6 face, but he was a "wonderful, very fine man." And that would be at page

7 61 of May 17th, at lines 1 through 4.

8 And generally you explained that you wanted to know, on a personal

9 basis, what was going on and so contacted people you knew from Sarajevo to

10 satisfy your curiosity. And as stated, more specifically on page 47 on

11 May 17th, at lines 15 through 16: "My communication with these people was

12 on a personal basis."

13 Now, I wanted, Mr. Krajisnik, to clarify some aspects of the

14 conversations on that date. And perhaps we can begin with Mr. Garic, whom

15 you said was a man you knew. In fact, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Garic was a

16 member of the Crisis Staff for Novo Sarajevo, I believe, and more

17 specifically, he was the person as reflected in tabs -- excuse me, in

18 additional items which I shall distribute now -- who was assigned certain

19 significant positions within the Crisis Staff.

20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, those items are in evidence. The Crisis

21 Staff meeting of December 23rd, 1991, is P529, tab 378. And the minutes

22 of the Crisis Staff meeting held in Lukavica on January 29th, 1992, is

23 P529, tab 260.

24 Q. And as we can see, Mr. Krajisnik, from the document of 23rd

25 December, 1991, after -- during the course of assignments made following

Page 25445

1 the discussion of materials received from the SDS BH main board, first

2 degree. Mr. Garic, in item 9, was assigned Territorial Defence

3 responsibilities, and as we can see in the -- from the record of the

4 meeting on January 29th, 1992, item 10, he was assigned the task of

5 ensuring that all battalion commanders be called to the Crisis Staff

6 meeting.

7 So Mr. Garic, Mr. Krajisnik, was not simply any neighbour of yours

8 in Sarajevo; he was an SDS member, with some -- in fact a local leader

9 with some significant responsibilities within the SDS.

10 A. I did not know what position he held at that time. I was not

11 aware of these assignments of his either.

12 Q. And when you called him on April 21st, 1992, you simply called him

13 as a neighbour who might have some idea of what was going on rather than

14 as an official who was involved with the operations of that day?

15 A. I called that number that I got, and I got him on the phone, and

16 since I knew him, I asked him about what was going on there. Had somebody

17 else been on the line, I would have asked him too, but then since he

18 happened to be on the line, I talked to him.

19 Q. Well, so you weren't calling Mr. Garic as a private personal

20 matter, you were calling him for some specific reason, and he happened to

21 be the person who was functioning in that capacity. What was that reason?

22 A. There are two telephone conversations here with Mr. Garic that

23 were interrupted. I wanted to know what was going on in Vraca because

24 there was an area I was interested in. Now, did I call him or did he call

25 me? I think I was the one who called Vraca and then he answered the phone

Page 25446

1 and I knew him and I asked what was going on there, and it was private, of

2 course, because I knew the man. I cannot even remember what he looks like

3 now but I knew him then.

4 Q. Mr. Karisik, he wasn't simply a personal acquaintance, he was a

5 head of the RS special forces for the MUP, right?

6 A. He was commander of the special unit, the special Serb unit, when

7 the special unit of the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina split up. And he

8 was located in Vraca.

9 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at what was going on that day,

10 Mr. Krajisnik, to see how personal these calls were or how operational

11 they were. First of all, if we could look at an item we'll distribute

12 now.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, this is P623.

14 Q. It's a conversation between Mr. Garic and Zoka in April, 1992.

15 And as we can see from the first page, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Garic says:

16 "They don't want, you say. Who does not want?"

17 Zoka: "Well, his, screw it, that is that ..."

18 Garic: "They don't want, do they?!"

19 Zoka: "This group that go with, with Brno."

20 Garic: "They don't want, do they?!"

21 Zoka: "Yes! He'll come with his eight."

22 And then further on down, Garic: "No, he isn't. Well, do

23 something, bring in the reinforcement over there ..."

24 Zoka: "Who can in bring in, damn it?"

25 Garic: "... Brne, as much as possible."

Page 25447

1 Zoka: "But, whom can I bring in?"

2 Garic: "I don't know. But, does anyone know who those 25 ...

3 are, I mean, how many? 17 of them refused ..."

4 And on the second page, we see that Mr. Garic wants to know what

5 Tomo said in the meeting. And a couple of lines later, says: "Listen,

6 you should see about it with Vojo, up there, Milinkovic. There are more

7 of these men."

8 And if we turn to tab 140, you'll see Mr. Garic again.

9 MR. TIEGER: This needs a number, Your Honour.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1232, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


13 Q. Garic calling, wanting to know if it's Ilidza. Velibor says --

14 and I should indicate for the record that's an intercepted conversation on

15 21 April, 1992. The response is: "No, it isn't. It's the Serbian

16 municipality of Ilidza, fuck it."

17 Garic: "It's Momo. Is that Velibor?"

18 Velibor: "It is."

19 And then Garic goes on to say: "How can you assist us with

20 manpower as soon as possible?"

21 Velibor: "In manpower?"

22 Garic: "Yeah."

23 And Garic further on down the page: "They are coming from all

24 sides. The army won't use tanks, nothing."

25 Velibor: "They won't even move the tanks?"

Page 25448

1 Garic: "No, no, no. By God, Velibor, do you have anything?"

2 Velibor: "Come on, call Prstojevic, down there."

3 And Garic, at the bottom, says: "If you make it, gather those

4 fellows and send them to Vraca, please."

5 So this is a reflection, Mr. Krajisnik, unless you have

6 information to the contrary, that Mr. Garic is seeking reinforcements as

7 aggressively as possible for an operation, correct?

8 A. I don't know anything about this, but may I just draw your

9 attention to this point where he says, "They are coming on from all sides.

10 And the army won't move their tanks." That could mean that they were

11 under attack. I don't know. I cannot comment. It's obvious that he's

12 asking assistance from Ilidza, but this remark, "They are coming all from

13 all sides," it sounds as if he's defending himself, whereas the army won't

14 move. They won't move their tanks, they won't do anything.

15 Q. Okay. Now, look next at an intercept in which Mr. Garic in fact

16 calls Mr. Prstojevic.

17 MR. TIEGER: That will need a number, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1233 [Realtime transcript read in

20 error "P1223"], Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

22 MR. JOSSE: The transcript has got the number wrong.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please repeat the number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: P1233, Your Honours.


Page 25449

1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

2 Q. Here, we see Garic asking first to speak to Danilo, and then he

3 explains further on Veselinovic, and asking, "Is Prstojevic there?" and

4 indicating he's calling from Novo Sarajevo. That's all on the first page.

5 Then as we continue, the second page Garic wants to know from

6 Prstojevic: "How can you help us as soon as possible?"

7 And Prstojevic asks: "Yes, but where, what is your location?"

8 Garic says: "In Vraca. We need some men in Vraca urgently,

9 please."

10 And after some specifics about that, Prstojevic asks: "Wait a

11 second Garic, are you at the pass and further on up the right side,

12 towards Vrace?"

13 And Garic says: "We went down to the town all the way to the

14 Miljacka river, but they're too strong there, they are encircling us and

15 the army refuses to move."

16 And he continues, about six lines down: "How can you help us? I

17 also called Velibor in Nedzarici and he will try to do something, but that

18 is not enough. That is not enough."

19 Prstojevic: "All right. What are the Special Forces doing?"

20 Garic: "They refuse to leave the barracks area. The Special

21 Forces refuse to leave the barracks area. That's it. The reserve police

22 force also promised to do everything they can but they went back."

23 And finally, on the second-to-last page, in the middle, Prstojevic

24 asks: "Where are you fighting exactly, where exactly are you ..."

25 And Garic says: "Vrbanja, Grbavica, Ivan Krndelj, all the way to

Page 25450

1 Elektroprivreda."

2 So Mr. Krajisnik, I had those -- presented those intercepts to you

3 so we could see the situation on April 21st, 1992, the date you had your

4 conversations with Mr. Garic and others. And in that connection, I'd now

5 like to turn to the intercepts you discussed in your testimony.

6 If we could turn first to tab 141. We can see at the beginning

7 this is a conversation -- this is P67, tab 30, Your Honour. Conversation

8 on 21 April, 1992, with Mr. Ninkovic, Milenko Karisik, Mr. Krajisnik, and

9 Nikola Koljevic. Now, the call is initiated by Branko who, as we can see

10 about midway through the first page, is calling in order to put you on the

11 phone. And he's -- and he states: "We are calling from the headquarters

12 in Vraca." Then he goes on: "Hold on, please. Speaker Krajisnik is

13 here." Now this is one of those calls that was made -- one of those

14 personal calls, Mr. Krajisnik. Is it just coincidental that you happened

15 to be in the headquarters in Vraca at the time you're making it?

16 A. I wasn't at Vraca. Karisik was at Vraca. I was at Pale with

17 Mr. Koljevic.

18 Q. Well, then the call must be being transferred through. In any

19 event, Branko puts you on the phone and says, indicating that President

20 Krajisnik is there.

21 A. No. Mr. Branko says, "Here am I, calling from Pale." It's a

22 mistake that I was there.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, that -- it's also not clear to me whether

24 the phone -- whether the telephone conversation had been put through,

25 because Branko -- yes, he says -- as a matter of fact, he says two

Page 25451

1 different things.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Two opposite things. I don't

3 even know who this Branko is.

4 JUDGE ORIE: It could even be, Mr. Tieger, I don't know whether

5 you have considered or whether it should be checked in the original, that

6 the line starting with Branko, "We are calling from the HQ in Vraca, who

7 am I talking to?" that --

8 MR. TIEGER: The answer is: "This is Branko here."

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that Branko is one line too far up.

10 MR. TIEGER: I hear Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That might be an explanation where Branko said

12 earlier, "I'm calling from Pale" at the previous line.

13 MR. TIEGER: M'hm. And I'll look at it again, but that certainly

14 makes sense. And we have Mr. Krajisnik's testimony on where he was at the

15 time the call was made.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there is any need to have it corrected, then

17 we'll hear from you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. But I understood that

19 I called from Pale, because Karisik was at Vraca, he wasn't at Pale.

20 MR. TIEGER: I understand.

21 Q. Then you indicate, it's Momo Krajisnik here. What's going on down

22 there? And Ninkovic says, well, Karisik can explain better.

23 It continues on the next page, with Karisik offering his

24 explanation in response to your -- well, you tell him: "Tell me, what's

25 the situation like down here -- down there? I hear there is chaos there."

Page 25452

1 And Karisik said: "Well, there is lots of shooting down there.

2 The members of the TO are engaged."

3 That was a portion you discussed during the course of your

4 examination-in-chief and that prompted some questions by the -- by His

5 Honour the Presiding Judge.

6 But further on down the page after Karisik says: "It's mainly

7 members of the TO who are engaged ..." you say: "Yes, yes. It's chaos

8 and the army can't engage because then we would have real problems. Can

9 you make contact with them just so we know how they are doing? I need to

10 know this, damn it."

11 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, "I need to know this, damn it," from the

12 president of the Assembly who has initiated a call in the middle of these

13 kinds of -- this kind of operation, to the head of the Special Forces,

14 doesn't sound like a personal call. Can you tell us what's personal about

15 that?

16 A. Well, in Sarajevo, you received news that somebody launched some

17 sort of adventurous operation and that there are casualties, and you are

18 curious to know what is going on. So you call people you know to get more

19 information. That's what it's all about. Doesn't matter that I'm speaker

20 of the Assembly. I called Garic, Milinkovic. It's the 21st of April,

21 just a few days after my arrival in Pale, which was on the 18th. Or maybe

22 the 20th, I don't know.

23 Q. Now, you actually spoke with Mr. Garic multiple times, or a number

24 of times that day. If we look quickly at tab 143, another conversation of

25 April 21st --

Page 25453

1 A. Please, Mr. Koljevic is also involved in this conversation. He

2 was expecting members of the European Union for a meeting. Maybe that's

3 another reason why I called. Karisik was at a meeting. I don't remember

4 this conversation, although it probably happened. I mean, I know that I

5 called regarding that problem, whether I called him or somebody else, but

6 it says Koljevic here. The representatives of the European Community were

7 interested.

8 Q. You testified about Dr. Koljevic's part of that conversation

9 during the course of your examination-in-chief, but perhaps the nature of

10 these phone calls can be made clearer if we look at other phone calls made

11 on that same day. That's why I directed your attention to page -- to tab

12 143, which is a conversation between yourself and an unidentified male on

13 21 April, 1992. That's P625.

14 And there, you ask is Momo Garic there and whether that's the

15 Vraca Crisis Staff and are told this is the Vraca local community. You

16 identify yourself and indicate that Garic just called you from somewhere

17 and asked, "Is he with you? Do you know where he just called me from?"

18 And you're provided with a number, and on the next page you say:

19 "All right. Tell me, what's new? What's the situation like down there?"

20 And are told: "Well, one part is withdrawing."

21 You say: "Our men?"

22 Answer: "Yeah."

23 Your question: "Can they withdraw?"

24 Answer: "Well, they've tried. They went down there to try to get

25 those men out of encirclement."

Page 25454

1 And we heard in an earlier intercept that was the nature -- at

2 least, part of the nature of the problem that day.

3 And then if we look at tab 142.

4 A. 142, you said?

5 Q. Yes, P67, tab 29, a conversation between you and Mr. Garic,

6 someone calls on your behalf. This is a conversation you also looked at

7 during the course of your examination-in-chief. And here you obviously

8 reach Mr. Garic after the interruption and after the phone call in which

9 you obtained his number in the previous exhibit, saying on the top of the

10 second page: "Hey, Momo! Something interrupted us."

11 And you say: "What is it? Tell me, what's the situation like?"

12 Garic: "Well, there are some little problems. Can you receive me

13 up there for a brief meeting?"

14 You say: "Well, sure, no problem."

15 And then further down: "All right, Momo. What's the situation up

16 there?"

17 Garic: "Well, it's all right for the time being. We've had some

18 casualties and many wounded."

19 You say: "You did? Well, are our men withdrawing from up there?"

20 Garic: "No, no, but the cooperation here is not on a high level.

21 I don't know why. They're ..."

22 You say: "All right. Momo, come here, let's not discuss this

23 over the phone."

24 And finally, Mr. Krajisnik, if you'll turn to tab 144. That's

25 P625, Your Honour. Conversation on -- again on April 21st between

Page 25455

1 Mr. Prstojevic and an unknown male. Mr. Prstojevic identifies himself and

2 asks: "Is Garic there?" And is told Garic went to Pale. And is asked to

3 whom he's speaking and told by one of Garic's associates.

4 Prstojevic: "All right. This is Prstojevic speaking, commander

5 of Crisis Staff Ilidza."

6 He indicates further down that he sent the help and manpower over

7 there, that they continue talking about the situation.

8 Then the unknown male says, about ten lines down from that:

9 "Well, yes. But that's not very organised. The police doesn't want to

10 come out and do their job. One part of the territory is already taken,

11 but the police doesn't want to come out, so the people ... I don't know

12 what to tell you, we have problems, there."

13 Prstojevic: "Tell me how far will they go? Did you come to the

14 left bank of the river Miljacka?"

15 And the unknown male says: "Yes, this part is taken almost to the

16 Miljacka river but the upper part, Ivan Krndelj Street, that is still not

17 taken."

18 Prstojevic: "And did you cut through Vrbanja?"

19 And the male says: "Yes."

20 Prstojevic: "And you are in control there?"

21 And the male says: "Well, we are for the moment, but the police

22 still didn't come out, so the civilians are holding that, fuck."

23 Prstojevic: "Territorial Defence members?"

24 And the unknown male says: "Well, yes."

25 Prstojevic: "All right, but the police should come out."

Page 25456

1 And the unknown male, Mr. Garic's associate, says: "Of course it

2 should, but it's not and that's the problem. So Krajisnik called him and

3 he went up there so they can agree on them doing their job, and if they

4 don't want ... fuck it, they are not doing anything for the last 20 days."

5 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, having now had an opportunity to look at the

6 conversational exchanges that took place on that date, in which men were

7 encirclement after having taken territory down to or almost down to the

8 Miljacka, and the police weren't doing their job, and Garic calling you

9 for -- to resolve that problem, isn't it the case that this was -- that

10 your conversations on that date were anything but the curious inquiries of

11 some neighbourhood busybody who was interested in what might be happening?

12 A. I have already responded, when I said that I was interested in

13 what was going on there, but from these conversations I see that Garic

14 first called me and then we got interrupted, we got disconnected, and then

15 I called him back. And this end person, this unidentified person, says

16 that Garic was asking to see me. He was asking to be received by me. And

17 that was on a purely personal basis, a person who wanted to tell me what

18 was going on. I wasn't calling Petrovac or Banja Luka. I was calling the

19 area where I was living. That's certainly the long and short of it.

20 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, the fact is that in the middle of a battle which

21 was -- in the middle of an operation, I should say, an offensive

22 operation, in which things weren't going well, you made a series of phone

23 calls to determine the status and Mr. Garic went to see you to resolve the

24 critical problem which was that the police were not doing what he wanted

25 them to do. That's the fact of these conversations --

Page 25457

1 A. No. You are completely, completely, you are completely wrong.

2 Please, the operation was finished. It ended unsuccessfully at the point

3 when I found out something, and I was trying to find out how many dead

4 there were. And after it was all over, he was asking how to get people

5 out. People were encircled and they needed to be pulled out. I heard

6 about that tragedy, probably. Djeric, Koljevic and I, all of us who were

7 up there were interested in finding out. You have the intercepts. You

8 can see. How would I not be interested in what was going on there after

9 hearing such news?

10 Q. My last question, because I know we are pressed: Mr. Krajisnik,

11 these reflect your hands-on knowledge of operations in Sarajevo at the

12 time they were happening. All of this was happening on April 21st. You

13 were calling to find out what was happening and they were -- and the

14 people most intimately involved in those operations, and most responsible

15 for those operations, were advising you and coming to see you.

16 A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, you've read here that Garic first called me

17 to tell me the news. Then we got disconnected. Then I called him back to

18 ask what is going on. Then he asked can I come and see you? And he

19 called Prstojevic and all the other men afterwards. I had nothing to do

20 with it. Just I heard about the action, I heard about the unfortunate

21 event, and all the people who got killed. If he did come later, he must

22 have told me. I was interested in what is going on with those people who

23 were encircled. You see that I had to ask who started that operation. If

24 I had known, I wouldn't have had to ask who started that operation and got

25 people killed, if there was anybody else involved there. It's all on --

Page 25458

1 in these papers. I don't know how you draw the conclusion that I was

2 abreast of this operation.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock. We are far

4 beyond the time already. But I still owe a response of the Chamber to

5 your request, Mr. Josse. The Chamber has carefully listened to what you

6 submitted. Mr. Josse, we have also carefully listened to Mr. Krajisnik's

7 own submissions in this respect, and the Chamber has come to the

8 conclusion that there is no reason not to sit tomorrow. So therefore,

9 we'll sit tomorrow.

10 There is another matter, but we might not be able to resolve.

11 Mr. Krajisnik we learned that you have another appointment with the

12 dentist next Wednesday. Is that again at 8.00 in the morning?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. On Wednesday. 8.00. I just

14 found out today.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we'll have to consider whether on

16 that Wednesday, we could have a late start or whether we would swap for

17 the afternoon but of course the first question will be whether the

18 treatment you will undergo at that day allows at all for that day to sit.

19 I've got no clue yet on what exactly the treatment is, but perhaps we, and

20 you as well, or the Defence, might gain further information as to whether

21 the treatment is such that it would prevent us from sitting that day.

22 MR. JOSSE: I understand the Chamber to be saying that

23 Mr. Krajisnik can definitely have the treatment that morning.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if it takes you a week to get an appointment, I

25 mean, otherwise, we can't say until the end of the Defence case you cannot

Page 25459

1 be treated by a dentist. So --

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we will further look on our agenda

4 and see whether -- but as a matter of principle, if there is an

5 appointment made with a specialist, especially when it's part of an

6 ongoing treatment, which we do understand, so it has started already, we

7 are inclined to agree with that. So we'll further look at how to deal

8 with it, and of course if it would, for example, if we would -- if there

9 would be a splendid solution to have the treatment done on Tuesday or

10 Thursday without losing any day in court, then of course we would suggest,

11 if possible, that the appointment with the dentist would perhaps then move

12 to Tuesday or Thursday. So this is not a final yes but a yes in principle

13 that everyone who needs treatment by a dentist will receive it in due

14 time.

15 MR. JOSSE: One other brief matter. Is the Chamber making any

16 inquiry, either through one of its Legal Officers or through the Registry,

17 as to the medication Mr. Krajisnik is presently taking or does the Chamber

18 want the Defence to do that?

19 JUDGE ORIE: We have not done that although we have taken some

20 initiative to find out whether Mr. Krajisnik can have at his disposal I

21 would say the ordinary painkillers which we all use now and then, like

22 Aspirin, which in all our experience does not affect our normal daily

23 ability. So we set out a request to be informed about that, but perhaps,

24 Mr. Krajisnik, you could tell us, if you need an Asprin or something like

25 that as a painkiller, are they available to you, in your experience?

Page 25460

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I just explained what this

2 was all about. The nerve was removed and then the canal is treated. I

3 don't know what it is inside. So I just need to get this job done. Oh, I

4 don't need Asprin, no, no. I have three different Asprins that I take,

5 for allergy and all sorts of things.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we'll further inquire into what

7 actually -- what medication is taken, although Mr. Krajisnik seems not to

8 be very worried about it and does not seem to indicate that at this moment

9 it's something that he didn't used to take.

10 MR. JOSSE: I'm just anxious to know if the Chamber are going to

11 do this, because if they are not, the Defence will undertake some

12 inquiries, but clearly we don't want to inundate the Detention Unit with

13 requests --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please liaise with Mr. Zahar, perhaps

15 tomorrow.

16 MR. JOSSE: I'll do that in the morning, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And then we will adjourn and with the

18 apologies to the interpreters and the technicians for the very late finish

19 today. And we will resume tomorrow afternoon at quarter past 2.00 in the

20 same courtroom (sic).

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.14 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Friday, the 9th day of June,

23 2006, at 2.15 p.m.