Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27209

 1                          Friday, 14 July 2006

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone on this last day in court

 6    before the recess.

 7            Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9    IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  May I first inquire of the

11    parties whether additional talks yesterday have resulted in anything the

12    Chamber should know?

13            MR. HARMON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Yes, they have.  We

14    have agreed upon the date of the 10th of August.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  That is for the -- to object to the admission of

16    pending exhibits?

17            MR. HARMON:  That's correct.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  10th of August.  And may I then take it that any

19    responses within two days from the 10th of August?

20            MR. HARMON:  That would be fine, Your Honour.

21            MR. STEWART:  Yes, Your Honour, that would be perfectly fine.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  And may I also take it that this

23    agreement includes acceptance of what the Chamber said earlier, that we

24    are not confronted at a later stage from this point, at least, that

25    further time would be needed to prepare for the final briefs.

Page 27210

 1            MR. HARMON:  That's correct.  That's my understanding,

 2    Your Honour.

 3            MR. STEWART:  Not on this point, Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I specifically said on this point.

 5            MR. STEWART:  Yes, I wanted to confirm that I registered that,

 6    Your Honour.  May ask then, inquire, it's a small point that's arisen.

 7    I'd like clarity just between Mr. Harmon and myself, we were not sure

 8    between ourselves whether the current date ordered for filing of the final

 9    briefs was now Thursday the 17th or Friday the 18th of August.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  I'll have to check that.

11            MR. STEWART:  Yes, I would be grateful, Your Honour, just to --

12    for us to be informed what's in mind.  Thank you.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  I meanwhile can inform the parties that the dates,

14    the 29th and the 30th and the 31st of August, where the Chamber had

15    difficulties finding a courtroom, that finally this has been settled so

16    that these dates are now firm.

17            The Chamber did not receive any other housekeeping matters to be

18    discussed at this moment.  And I checked until five minutes ago, so unless

19    I hear otherwise, I take it that there will be no further housekeeping

20    matters to be raised.  I have, however, to --

21            MR. JOSSE:  Well, Your Honour, there is just the issue of the

22    introduction of those --

23                          [Trial Chamber confers]

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25            MR. JOSSE:  Those two remaining exhibits.

Page 27211

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  I will deliver a decision on some exhibits right now.

 2    But I don't know whether --

 3            MR. JOSSE:  I would rather deal with those after the break but --

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, further argument on exhibits?

 5            MR. JOSSE:  It's not so much as argument, Your Honour.  There are

 6    two that the Defence wish to introduce, which is the bridge video in part,

 7    which has been agreed in principle.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9            MR. JOSSE:  And also there is the Islamic declaration.  There is

10    some discussion rather than dispute at the bar as to whether all 77 pages

11    that have been translated by the CLSS should be admitted or only portions.

12    In short, Your Honour, the Defence are simply seeking to put in a few

13    selected portions.  But frankly, if my learned friends say --

14                          [Trial Chamber confers]

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I apologise, Mr. Josse.

16            You said that was the Islamic declaration.

17            MR. JOSSE:  So in short the Defence simply are seeking to put in a

18    few selected portions.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20            MR. JOSSE:  But if the Prosecution would rather that the whole

21    document was admitted in the event the Defence is seeking admission of

22    part, then I don't suppose we are in a position to oppose that.

23                          [Trial Chamber confers]

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25            MR. JOSSE:  Perhaps better addressed after the break.  It's just

Page 27212

 1    that we are quite anxious to know what we need to provide the Court with

 2    at this juncture.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4            Mr. Harmon, Mr. Tieger, any clear position yet?

 5            MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I think the issue would merit some

 6    further discussions with counsel and then we -- we are anxious at this

 7    point to review the selections that have been made by the Defence and

 8    assess those selections in relation to the complete document.  We have not

 9    arrived at a decision yet on whether we agree that only select the

10    portions should be put in or the whole document.  So we would ask that a

11    decision, that further discussions take place, and that we -- Your Honours

12    defer a decision on that issue.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I take it that it would still be an option

14    that the Prosecution instead of insisting on the whole of the document

15    being admitted select their portions, which they find of importance, and

16    then this would be a way of limiting the material.

17            MR. HARMON:  That would be an option to that would be acceptable

18    to us then if we select portions we would share them with our colleagues

19    from the Defence.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21            MR. JOSSE:  I've got a practical suggestion, perhaps I can make it

22    at the break to my learned friend and we can return to the subject before

23    the court rises at the end of today.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25            MR. JOSSE:  Thank you.

Page 27213

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  I'm pleased that it was to some extent useful to

 2    briefly discuss it at this moment.

 3            About the -- which negotiations the video --

 4            MR. HARMON:  I can tell you where we are, Your Honour, we have

 5    exchanged translations.  The Defence has prepared translations of portions

 6    of that video.  This morning I had my language assistant assess that

 7    translation and whether it was complete or accurate, and I then received a

 8    copy of a -- some addition that is were made to that that had been

 9    submitted to me by the Defence, that translation, and I e-mailed it to the

10    Defence.  Again, I haven't heard from the Defence yet whether those

11    amendments are accepted or not but after the break I'm sure we can resolve

12    that issue as well.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, then --

14            MR. JOSSE:  I'm going to make the same practical suggestion in

15    relation to that and if that's acceptable, we will pledges to the Chamber

16    later.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Sounds very reasonable.

18            Then I'll read a decision on the request by the Defence for

19    additional time and evidence.  And meanwhile, I'll ask Mr. Usher to

20    already keep the witness standby.

21            The Chamber would like to deliver a decision on various requests

22    by the Defence for additional time and evidence and for excluding the

23    evidence related to Chamber Witness Mrs. Plavsic.  On the 30th of June

24    2006, the Defence filed a motion for time to call further Defence

25    witnesses, requesting an additional 57 and a half additional hours in

Page 27214

 1    order to call witnesses out of a list of 18 named individuals.  The

 2    Prosecution responded on the 10th of July 2006, and the Defence replied on

 3    the 11th of July.  The motion is denied and written reasons will follow in

 4    due course.

 5            On the 30th of June, 2006, the Defence also filed a motion

 6    pursuant to Rule 85 requesting additional time to provide information

 7    relevant to sentence, should the accused be found guilty.  In particular,

 8    the Defence seeks two full days to call viva voce evidence and present

 9    information as well as the possibility to submit, and I quote, "Written

10    testimonials."  The motion is denied in so far as it relates to viva voce

11    evidence.  With respect to written documentation, the Chamber is in no

12    position to make a determination until the proposed material is

13    identified.  The Chamber therefore allows the Defence, if it so wishes to

14    provide this material by the 31st much July 2006 and the Prosecution to

15    respond if it so wishes by the 4th of August.

16            If the dates are such that the parties could agree or would agree

17    on a similar date as for the other material, then the Chamber will

18    consider such a joint suggestion by the parties.

19            MR. JOSSE:  I don't want to interrupt save for the fact that the

20    practical problems that we've alluded two on these two occasions earlier

21    this week, apply so far as this is concerned, and it's essential, frankly,

22    from our point of view for that order to be remotely effective or for

23    there to be some sort of extension.  I see my learned friend is on his

24    feet.

25            MR. TIEGER:  In light of those problems of which we are aware and

Page 27215

 1    we have discussed before I'm confident we can reach an agreement similar

 2    to the one outlined in the court earlier.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  And I take it that especially in that respect, that

 4    the problems that would arise from this late filing would not create major

 5    problems for final briefs.

 6            MR. TIEGER:  Well, as the Court noted we haven't seen the material

 7    but we can't -- we don't anticipate such problems, Your Honour.

 8            MR. JOSSE:  I note that there are comments in the Prosecution's

 9    response to our motion, and frankly, we appreciate what is said,

10    appreciate what my learned friend has just said, and I can't imagine there

11    will be any problems either.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I'll continue with delivering the

13    decision.

14            Finally, on the 11th of July, 2006, the Defence filed a motion to

15    exclude all evidence related to the Chamber witness, Biljana Plavsic, and

16    for prospective witness, Branko Djeric, not to be called as a witness.

17            The Chamber dismissed the part of the motion related to Mr. Djeric

18    on the same day.  Due to the circumstances and the timing of the motion,

19    the Chamber will now issue an oral decision with respect to the testimony

20    of Mrs. Plavsic without having heard from the Prosecution.

21            That part of the motion is also denied.  Reasons will follow in

22    writing.

23            With respect to the exhibits related to the testimony of Mrs.

24    Plavsic, the Chamber has given the parties until - and I draw the

25    attention of the interpreters to the fact that the dates are not as

Page 27216

 1    written down - has given the parties until the 10th of August 2006, and

 2    that is on today's transcript, to object to the admission of all pending

 3    exhibits and until the 12th of August to respond to any objections from

 4    the opposing party.  This deadline applies to exhibits related to all

 5    Chamber witnesses including Mrs. Plavsic.

 6            There concludes the Chamber's decision on various requests,

 7    motions by the Defence.

 8            And the Chamber would now like to briefly address the parties

 9    regarding exhibits -- Exhibit D254 which is a video clip with an interview

10    of General MacKenzie played in court on the 19th of June 2006.  The

11    Chamber has been informed by the Defence that the parties have agreed that

12    court transcript of the 19th of June will suffice for their purposes in

13    lieu of an official English transcript from CLSS.  The Chamber accepts

14    this practical solution as well and does not insist on an additional

15    English transcript.

16            The Chamber was informed that meanwhile the video clip has been

17    provided to the registrar.

18            Lastly, regarding the documents and CDs which were provided to the

19    registrar by Mr. Krajisnik during his testimony, and here I'm referring to

20    those items which were not assigned any exhibit number, and not tendered

21    into evidence by either of the parties, the registrar is hereby instructed

22    to return these items to Mr. Krajisnik at the first convenient

23    opportunity.

24            This concludes the delivery of this decision.

25            MR. JOSSE:  My client might need a form for those in order for him

Page 27217

 1    to be readmitted to the Detention Unit.  I'm sure Mr. Haider will take

 2    care of it.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  The practicalities, I also assume they will be taken

 4    care of.

 5            MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, may I raise one point in connection with

 6    the exhibits?

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8            MR. TIEGER:  And I appreciate that the Court throughout the

 9    discussion of this issue has remained concerned about issues related to

10    the closing briefs and closing arguments and of course my comments have to

11    be made in light of the Court's anticipatory awareness of that throughout

12    but if I understand it correctly, now, the Court will be essentially

13    seized of the -- of any issues arising from that on the 12th.  The Court

14    is aware of the deadline dates for the final brief, and I think there was

15    an anticipation or expectation that the Court would be in a position to

16    respond to any such issues forthwith so that the parties would at least

17    have an opportunity to adjust, if necessary, in one way or another, to any

18    aspects that might be affected in connection with the final brief.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber will be here on these dates and

20    will be in a position to respond on shortest notice and the parties may be

21    aware that the Chamber sometimes is developing some speed in that respect.

22            Finally, final briefs are expected by the 18th of August.  18th of

23    August.  Yes.

24            MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Djeric

Page 27218

 1    into the courtroom?

 2            THE USHER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3                          [The witness entered court]

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Is there -- has the time further been discussed

 5    between the parties?

 6            MR. TIEGER:  It has, Your Honour, and in that connection I want to

 7    express my appreciation to Mr. Stewart.  The situation is this:  I will

 8    make every effort to conclude within the time also graciously allotted by

 9    the Trial Chamber, that is the 15 minutes.  Mr. Stewart has indicated,

10    however, that if another 15 minutes was needed that it wouldn't impact in

11    any way -- any adverse way on his cross-examination.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

13            Mr. Djeric, good afternoon.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to you, too.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djeric I'd like to remind you that you are still

16    bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

17    testimony, that is that you'll speak the truth, and I emphasise the whole

18    truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                          WITNESS:  BRANKO DJERIC [Resumed]

20                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

22            MR. TIEGER:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

23                          Examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

24       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Djeric.

25       A.   Good afternoon to you.

Page 27219

 1       Q.   On Thursday, the 13th of July, that is yesterday, you were asked

 2    some questions by His Honour Judge Orie concerning reports from

 3    Mr. Stanisic.  That began at the bottom of page 15 of the transcript and

 4    continued on roughly through page 16 and 17.  You indicated -- the Judge

 5    asked you at one point did you ever receive written reports on the

 6    security of people and property.  You said sometimes I did, sometimes it

 7    took a while, sometimes they would be detailed, sometimes they would be

 8    quite brief.  And His Honour asked you about the kind of information in

 9    those reports -- there is nothing to react to yet until I finish, please.

10    The Judge asked you approximately what kind of information was in those

11    reports, you said I really cannot -- I cannot remember, it was a long time

12    ago.  There were lots of strictly confidential, all these abbreviations

13    were used so I cannot remember.  There were some further discussion about

14    that.

15            In that connection, Mr. Djeric, I wanted to show you two items.

16    The first is found at tab 58 of the binders.  That bundle may not have

17    been distributed yet.  And the second should be distributed now.  We can

18    give those both numbers and the witness can have them both before him, in

19    the interests of time.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Are they already in evidence, Mr. Tieger?

21            MR. TIEGER:  Let me check, Your Honour, I believe they both need

22    numbers.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar?

24            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P1290, Your Honours.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  For tab 58, yes.  And, Mr. Registrar, may I take it

Page 27220

 1    that P1291 would be the other document, bulletin of daily incidents number

 2    73, strictly confidential, 24th of July 1992.

 3            THE REGISTRAR:  Indeed, Your Honours.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

 5            MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6       Q.   Now, Mr. Djeric, P1290 and P1291 are two daily reports or

 7    bulletins from the MUP, 1290 is from April 1992, the 22nd and 23rd.  P1291

 8    is from July 1992, the 24th of July to be specific, and I'd like you to

 9    take a quick look at those, looking first at P1290, the April report.

10    That reflects information concerning a number of municipalities, including

11    Banja Luka, Sanski Most, Trebinje, Gacko, Bijeljina, and Zvornik.  And

12    P1291, the July report, similarly contains information regarding a number

13    of municipalities, including quite recent activities as we see from the

14    second paragraph about 0400 and 0600 hours, this area, et cetera,

15    reference to the security -- the complex security situation in Rajlovac

16    and Vogosca, the complex security situation at the bottom of the paragraph

17    on page 2 and the page -- on page 6471 of your version, in Sekovici, and

18    the last paragraph of that section before the discussion about Trebinje,

19    reflects actions taken in Pale, Sokolac, Han Pijesak, and Rogatica, to

20    cleanse the remaining Muslim extremists, weapons being confiscated.  There

21    are -- there is information later in the report, as you can see, on other

22    areas including Srebrenica, Kotor Varos, Banja Luka, et cetera.

23            Mr. Djeric, are these -- do these -- are these the kinds of

24    reports that you were referring to in responding to the questions by

25    His Honour yesterday?

Page 27221

 1       A.   No, no.   I don't remember such documents.  Because these are

 2    documents that have to do with the military part, the part that has to do

 3    with weapons, and I have to tell you that the Ministry of the Interior did

 4    not have any such obligation vis-a-vis the government.  That part of the

 5    police and that work was under the president.  That is to say the military

 6    and the use of police in wartime was under the president.  You see that

 7    this is not addressed to the government.  It's simply not sent to the

 8    government at all.  This is the first time I see this type of report.

 9       Q.   You told His Honour -- I mean, the questioning yesterday was in

10    connection with reports on matters such as the security of people and

11    property.  Then you went on to the explanation about the frequency of the

12    reports and the detail of those reports.  What information did you receive

13    sometimes in detail, sometimes not, about the security of people and

14    property that differed from the kind of information contained here in

15    P1290 and 1291?

16       A.   Well, for the most part, these were reports that were related to,

17    well, the situation in the MUP, the needs of the MUP, I mean things like

18    that.  Supplies, equipment and so on.

19       Q.   I'm going to -- that may be -- all right.  Doesn't quite answer my

20    question.  My question was, you indicated yesterday that you received

21    reports, sometimes in detail, sometimes brief, with lots of strictly

22    confidential material about the security of people and property.  How did

23    the information you received about the security of people differ from the

24    kinds of information contained here which seems to be about that, at least

25    in part?

Page 27222

 1       A.   I mean, I cannot recall the details now.  Do you understand what

 2    I'm saying?  But I know that information was sought, for instance, about

 3    the situation in, I mean, well, the reception centres.  Well, that's what

 4    I meant.  I mean -- and sort of things like that.  Well, I mean, at any

 5    rate, I'm saying to you that the information that came to the government

 6    was of a different nature.  There information, as presented here, perhaps

 7    went to the president.  I don't know.  I mean -- or it was used within the

 8    MUP but I did not encounter this kind of information.

 9       Q.   You've made repeated references to the -- during the course of

10    your testimony to the information sought about the reception centres.  I

11    recall, for example, that on repeated occasions on the first day of your

12    testimony, which I believe was the 12th, in discussing the journalists'

13    reports about the camps, you referred to the -- your request for reports

14    about the centres.  That was at page 58.  Discussed it again on page 60.

15    You set up a commission to receive better information about the camps.

16    And again on I think page 73, and 76, you seem to allude to those reports.

17    Since I have very little time, let me discuss that with you briefly now.

18            The Trial Chamber's materials which it didn't -- earlier prepared

19    materials, I believe, contained D246, which is a letter of August 7th,

20    1992, that refers to a copy of reports on the situation in Manjaca and

21    Bileca prisons.  It's a letter to you from Dr. Karadzic dated the 7th of

22    August which, of course, is the same date as the press release that we

23    looked at yesterday and that the Court examined with you the day before

24    that.  If I -- at    this point, I'd like to present you with that letter

25    plus the report it refers to.  And those will need -- the D246 obviously

Page 27223

 1    doesn't need a number, Your Honour, but the report will.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the report --

 3            THE REGISTRAR:  Will be P1292, Your Honours.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's a report numbered 01456-92 dated the 7th

 5    of August 1992.

 6            MR. TIEGER:  Just to clarify, Your Honour, the situation we

 7    have -- for the record, the number the Court just resided appears on the

 8    letter from Dr. Karadzic which is P246 and I think this should -- might as

 9    well be exhibited in its entirety - that is the letter and the report that

10    is attached - but just so the record is clear, this initial letter, this

11    one-page letter on the top, is also D246.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So now attached to this letter, and perhaps we

13    have that letter in again under the new number, P1292.  We find behind it

14    a letter in which the International Committee of the Red Cross sends a --

15    sends its observations concerning the visit to Manjaca, to the president

16    of the Serbian Democratic Party.  Copies sent to Mr. Koljevic, Ms.

17    Plavsic.

18            Please proceed.

19            MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20       Q.   Mr. Djeric, you recall receiving the letter from Dr. Karadzic and

21    the report by the Red Cross?

22       A.   I do not recall.

23       Q.   Did you ever see -- all right.  Did you ever hear about the

24    substance of the findings of the ICRC from Dr. Karadzic, Mrs. Plavsic,

25    Mr. Krajisnik, or Mr. Koljevic?

Page 27224

 1       A.   No, no.  You can see that everybody dealt with different matters

 2    there.  You see?   You see President Karadzic, he's dealing with these

 3    issues.  These overall issues.  And usually I mean -- well, he used

 4    Kalinic for that and the Minister of the Interior, if security questions

 5    related to camps are concerned.

 6       Q.   Well, in this particular case, it seems that Dr. Karadzic at least

 7    prepared a letter to you and sent you this report but let's look quickly

 8    at the substance of the report and let me ask you this.  Do you recall

 9    hearing from any source, and in particular any member of the Bosnian Serb

10    leadership, that the ICRC had visited Manjaca camp in mid-July 1992, that

11    is the 14th through the 16th, and that during the course of that visit,

12    every one of the delegates who visited observed frequent and widespread

13    traces of recent and often severe beatings of the detainees?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Do you recall hearing from any source, including the ones I

16    mentioned, that many detainees showed marked weight loss, signs of anaemia

17    with severity often corresponding to the length of detention?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   And you knew nothing according to you about the many prisoners who

20    were suffering from chronic physical or mental illnesses in Manjaca camp

21    and Bileca camp?

22       A.   No, no.  I didn't know.  I'm talking in the context of these

23    letters, you know.  I mean, in the context of these letters.  I mean, the

24    world press is a different thing.  I told you about that already.  I told

25    you the other day.  As for these questions, you can see here, it was

Page 27225

 1    President Karadzic that dealt with them.  Then Kalinic dealt with this in

 2    some domains the minister the interior, too, so this was sent to them, you

 3    see?

 4       Q.   I recited some of your references to the commission reports, that

 5    is the government commission reports.  Were those commissions sent to the

 6    camps to determine whether allegations made by representatives of the

 7    international community, and representatives of the international media,

 8    were true and, if so, to remedy those conditions and to hold accountable

 9    those persons responsible?  Is that what those commissions were about or

10    were they for some other purpose?

11       A.   The purpose of those commissions was to tour the camps to improve

12    the situation, then further on, if necessary, to disband some and so on.

13    And I mean, well, a group would usually be formed from people from the

14    Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of the Interior.

15       Q.   And among the allegations of the international community and

16    international media was that prisoners and detainees were mistreated and

17    that civilians were held in those facilities.  Was there any effort

18    according to you by the government or any other body of the Bosnian Serb

19    authorities, to determine whether those allegations were true and to hold

20    accountable those persons responsible?

21       A.   You see, I mean, these groups were set up to tour and to provide

22    the government with information and within that context, we adopted some

23    conclusions; that is, to improve the situation, then that certain camps be

24    disbanded, all in keeping with the findings of those working groups.

25       Q.   This Court has had an opportunity to review the reports prepared

Page 27226

 1    by the government commissions.  You can have a chance to look at those now

 2    if you wish.  Those include the report by Vojin Lale and Mirko Erkic

 3    [phoen] on August 17th, I think, the report by Mr. Avlijas on August 22nd

 4    and the subsequent report on October 22nd, again, if I recall correctly,

 5    by Mr. Avlijas.  Those commission reports do not appear to reflect any

 6    effort whatsoever to investigate the issue of responsibility for

 7    maltreatment, responsibility for detention of civilians.  Are you aware of

 8    any other reports, and can you tell the Court what those are, that

 9    addressed those issues?

10       A.   You see, when it came to these issues, I was not informed in any

11    other way but through the working groups, through the feedback, but I

12    always put pressure on the ministries, the Ministry of the Interior and

13    the Ministry of Justice, I repeat, to work in the field on all of the

14    issues pertaining to their purview and to act in the way that the -- a

15    state with the rule of law should function, and amongst other things, this

16    was a constant problem in the functioning of the government.  But you see

17    from these reports, i.e., from the work of these groups, that we did work,

18    that we did send teams all the time.  I mean, that we did have information

19    about all that.  In other words, we were not passive.

20       Q.   I have no doubt you had information, Mr. Djeric.

21            MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I think I've used my time, thank you.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One additional question, Mr. Djeric, in this

23    respect.  You say look at these documents, you see it was Karadzic and it

24    was the others I think it was Kalinic and the others, they were addressed,

25    they dealt with the matter.

Page 27227

 1            But of course, one would be inclined to say, "Look at the

 2    documents.  You were addressed in a letter by Mr. Karadzic."  Do you see

 3    the problem we might have, that if you rely upon what is written down,

 4    that how could we do that if you say, well, what's written down to the

 5    extent that others were dealing with the matter, just look at the paper,

 6    and as far as the papers or this letter indicates that copies of the

 7    reports of the ICRC are sent to you, you say, well, don't know about it.

 8    Reports, including malnutrition, detention of insane people but also

 9    civilian detainees of which the ICRC says, "Release them."

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I mean, I don't see --

11    actually I do see that the Presidency did write to Mr. Samaruga, and then

12    it says here "the government," and it says we expect the government to

13    engage the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of the Interior and

14    undertake all the necessary measures.  And so on and so forth.  Pursuant

15    to all that, the groups were set up eventually.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me -- let me simply stop you there for a second.

17    I see a letter from the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of

18    Bosnia-Herzegovina with a signature and a stamp under it which suggests

19    that this letter was signed by Radovan Karadzic and it's addressed to the

20    government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

21    Mr. Branko Djeric, Prime Minister, first line being, "Dear Mr. Prime

22    Minister.  I hereby deliver to you copies of the reports of the situation

23    in Manjaca and Bileca prisons that I just received."  And then he tells

24    that he has sent a letter to Mr. Samaruga and Mr. Mladic.

25            So it seems that this report at least that is what this letter

Page 27228

 1    says, is directly sent to you, not to the government in general, but to

 2    the Prime Minister, Mr. Branko Djeric.  The report says that civilian

 3    detainees are recommended by the ICRC to be released.  So therefore, you

 4    say that you -- committees were supposed to tour the camps and you draw

 5    our attention to the fact, who was dealing with the matter.  But these

 6    papers, this letter, suggests that you were supposed to deal with these

 7    matters.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I mean, the government.  The

 9    government set up the working groups consisting of the ministries of

10    justice and the Interior so it was the government in other words.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was that caused by the receipt of this letter

12    and this report by Mr. Karadzic, the report by the ICRC and the letter

13    sent to you by Mr. Karadzic?

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the context -- I mean, I

15    don't remember the details of this.  I said there were the writings of the

16    world press and, simply put, it is possible that the ministers, since they

17    were in contact with the President Karadzic also were informed about all

18    this.  In other words, I don't remember the details thereof but I remember

19    that we acted urgently in order to deal with those issues, and exactly

20    certain ministers were required to tour, to see, to look at the situation,

21    and to see what they could do to solve the problem.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Was there ever -- was it ever ordered that civilian

23    detainees should be released immediately?  Which is a clear recommendation

24    of the ICRC.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that.  I don't know

Page 27229

 1    that.  This was not within my purview.  I did not have the means to order

 2    anything, to issue any orders.  In other words, I could not issue any

 3    orders to either the military or to the police or to any of those who held

 4    that.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart is it you or is it Mr. Josse who is going

 6    to examine the witness?  Mr. Josse comes in --

 7            MR. STEWART:  Fortunately it's me, Your Honour.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9            MR. STEWART:  For today's hearing, anyway, but I --

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11            MR. STEWART: -- hold my hand.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.

13                          Examination by Mr. Stewart:

14            MR. STEWART:

15       Q.   Mr. Djeric, good afternoon.  Mr. Djeric you were a member of the

16    government of Bosnia-Herzegovina back in early 1991 and onwards, weren't

17    you?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Who nominated you or put you forward or that position?

20       A.   The position as a member of government.

21       Q.   That's exactly the one I was asking about, yes.

22       A.   I was nominated by my party.  I was on the list of the party that

23    was represented by Karadzic and it was that party that nominated me as a

24    member of government.

25       Q.   But who as an individual, if you can remember, first approached

Page 27230

 1    you with a view to your possibly becoming a member of that government?

 2       A.   Believe me, I don't remember.  I don't know who it was who was in

 3    charge of the personnel policy.  I don't even think that that was

 4    organised in that way.  It was rather diffuse.  Everybody could nominate

 5    any candidates before the president of the party and then he will be the

 6    one who selected and proposed.  I remember that he invited me, I went to

 7    visit him, and thereafter followed the final nomination.

 8            Who was it who spoke to him about me as a possible candidate, I

 9    really can't tell you anything about that.

10       Q.   Your colleagues in that government included, didn't they, as Serb

11    members, Mr. Simovic.  Tell me if you remember this.  Mr. Simovic?

12    Agreed?

13       A.   Yes, yes.

14       Q.   Mr. Ranko Nikolic?

15       A.   I remember him as well.

16       Q.   Mr. Momcilo Pejic?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Mr. Miljivojen Nadezdin [phoen]?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Mr. David Balaban?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Velibor Ostojic?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Anybody else that you remember?

25       A.   Did you mention Bozo Rantic [phoen] at all?

Page 27231

 1       Q.   No, I hadn't.  So you remember him, do you, as having a government

 2    post?

 3       A.   He was also, yes.

 4       Q.   Do you know anything about who first approached any of those

 5    gentlemen to become members of the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 6       A.   I don't know, no.

 7       Q.   Was it, if you do know, was it the rather -- were they part of the

 8    rather diffuse process that you mentioned a few minutes ago, where

 9    everybody could nominate anybody and then the president of the party would

10    select and propose?

11       A.   I mean, that's how things were.  Different authorities proposed to

12    the president of the party, because everybody had some interest in

13    proposing people, and I really don't know how all this was organised, how

14    it all went.

15       Q.   Now, you were then subsequently a member of the Bosnian Serb

16    council of ministers, as it's called, from December 1991 onwards, weren't

17    you?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Can you remember how you became a member of that council?

20       A.   Well, simply pursuant to the decisions of the Assembly of the

21    Serbian People, I -- pursuant to the decision of the Assembly of the Serb

22    People of Republika Srpska, all the ministers that constituted the

23    government of Bosnia-Herzegovina were at the same time members of the

24    ministerial council of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25       Q.   So it was as simple as that, was it, Mr. Djeric?

Page 27232

 1       A.   Well, that's how it was, because the Serbian Republic was part of

 2    Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Therefore, these ministers were at the same time

 3    members of the ministerial council and members of the government and they

 4    attended the sessions of the -- both bodies.  It was vice-president

 5    Simovic, the vice Prime Minister of Bosnia-Herzegovina who chaired the

 6    meetings of the ministerial council.

 7       Q.   And you were the Minister of Development, weren't you?

 8       A.   Well, I was the same thing I was there.

 9       Q.   How active, if indeed it was active, was the council of ministers

10    from December 1991 through to March of 1992?

11       A.   I think that it was active.  I can't speak about that, but they

12    had to report to somebody.  I don't know who to.  I can only say that

13    there was a certain activity, that this body was active.

14       Q.   And were you an active participant?

15       A.   Truth be told, my position was without a portfolio so that I -- as

16    to the extent needed I was present.  My sector was not important because

17    not much was said about development at the time, we were facing a crisis.

18    The most important sectors was the interior, finances and some economic

19    sectors where there was money, like, for example, transport, agriculture,

20    forestry and so on.  A ministry without portfolio -- actually this was not

21    a ministry as such; there was just a minister.  In other words, I was by

22    myself in that ministry, with a secretary.

23       Q.   Can we just be clear, because it's certainly been suggested in the

24    course of the Prosecution case --

25            MR. STEWART:  And, Your Honours, I was looking at Mr. Treanor's

Page 27233

 1    report --

 2       Q.   That you were the minister of development.  Were you technically

 3    the minister of development or were you technically a minister without

 4    portfolio?

 5       A.   You see, I was a minister without a portfolio.  That was the

 6    official title, a minister without a portfolio, but I was interested in

 7    the issues of development.  And let me also tell you that before the war,

 8    I was the             head of a team that worked on the development of

 9    Bosnia-Herzegovina, that was a government programme, and this programme

10    was well received by all the factors, by all the three sides in

11    Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This was in other words my engagement.  That's where

12    my engagement was.  The government programme of development strategy which

13    was a well-received programme at the moment when it was drafted.

14       Q.   Now, when that council of ministers was replaced by the Bosnian

15    Serb government and we have seen that, you became the president or Prime

16    Minister, Mr. Pejic was the vice-president at first.  Were you content

17    with Mr. Pejic as your vice-president or Deputy Prime Minister?

18       A.   Truth be told, he was an invalid.  I don't know whether he became

19    vice-Prime Minister immediately.  I can't remember.  I believe it was

20    somewhat later.  In other words he had a severe handicap and a severe

21    disability, and he went to Belgrade very soon after that and he was there

22    in Belgrade in the office of the government.  In other words, he had a

23    disability.  He was disabled. And, of course, with him, I was not very

24    happy with him.  But the situation was what it was.

25       Q.   Well, can we be clear?  First of all, Mr. Pejic had been the

Page 27234

 1    Minister of Finance in the Bosnia and Herzegovina government, hadn't he,

 2    from January 1991 onwards?

 3       A.   Yes.  He was the Finance Minister.

 4       Q.   Now, apart from any difficulties such as you've just mentioned

 5    which might have affected his practical ability to do the work, were you

 6    otherwise content with Mr. Pejic as your deputy in the newly formed

 7    government?

 8       A.   Well, he wasn't in practical terms -- you understand, he was in

 9    Belgrade and the Minister of Finance was Petra Markovic and she worked in

10    the inner government.  In other words, I was not especially satisfied

11    because this person was ill, he had a disability, he was an invalid.

12       Q.   You've told us that?

13       A.   But simply put --

14       Q.   Yes?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   You told us about that, Mr. Djeric.  You were content with

17    Mrs. Markovic, were you, then, as the Minister of Finance?

18       A.   Well, she -- she was healthy and she did her job.  She was always

19    present.

20       Q.   And was it then Mr. Pejic's health difficulties that you've

21    referred to which led to him being quite quickly replaced on the 8th of

22    June, it appears, by Mr. Trbojevic as the vice-president or Deputy Prime

23    Minister?

24       A.   I think that it was not Trbojevic actually.  It was not Trbojevic

25    who was Deputy Prime Minister.  Let me put it simply.  In practical terms,

Page 27235

 1    the Prime Minister was helped with Deputy Prime Ministers in charges of

 2    certain sectors.  For example, Trbojevic could stand in for the Prime

 3    Minister if the issues at stake were in the interior.  I was absent.  But

 4    if the issues were of an economic nature then he couldn't do it.

 5    Trbojevic was in the inner government and he might have used that and that

 6    is a different issue.

 7       Q.   Well, Mr. Djeric, I'll invite to you consider, is that right?  It

 8    appears that from evidence that has been received in this case, that

 9    Mr. Trbojevic was quite clearly and formally appointed the vice-president

10    of the government by a decision of the 8th of June.  Does that ring a

11    bell, now I've put it that way?  Do you think that might be right?

12       A.   I mean, he was appointed the vice-president, but I don't remember

13    anybody ever mentioning a deputy.  Birus [phoen] also was vice-president.

14    There were two vice-presidents, in other words.

15       Q.   The -- it is quite correct and I've just -- you needn't I think

16    look at the document, Mr. Djeric, and probably nobody else has to

17    immediately, but 21st government meeting of Serb Republic of Bosnia and

18    Herzegovina held on the 5th of June, you chaired the meeting as president

19    of the government, and it said, also present, vice-presidents of the

20    government, Milan Trbojevic -- excuse me one moment, Your Honour.  There

21    may be a -- there may be a point on the original.

22                          [Defence counsel confer]

23            MR. STEWART:  I'll come back to that, Your Honour.  It's possible

24    there a simple misprint so rather than waste time on that I'll move on.

25       Q.   Mr. Djeric, you presumably were in the light of what you have

Page 27236

 1    said, you were content and in no unkind way, content that Mr. Pejic left

 2    the government, were you?

 3       A.   No, no, no.  I did not understand you properly, I believe.

 4       Q.   It was not -- as far as you were concerned, it was not a

 5    negative -- well first of all, Mr. Pejic did leave the government, didn't

 6    he?  Quite soon after it was formed.

 7       A.   Well, now, I don't remember whether he left.  I don't think he

 8    left.  He was still on the list as vice-president of the government, but

 9    his purview pertained to the job of the head of office of the government

10    in Belgrade.  So nobody took that away from him, as far as I can remember.

11    He just wasn't the Finance Minister.

12       Q.   Now, your colleague, Mr. Nadazdin, who was in the Bosnian Serb

13    government from May 1992 onwards, you had no problems with him, did you,

14    as one of those ministers who had been in the Bosnia and Herzegovina

15    government and continued into your government?

16       A.   Well, I just can't remember Nadazdin at this point somehow because

17    he was.

18       Q.   Minister of Agriculture forestry and water works, does that

19    trigger any memory?

20       A.   Well, I know that, and he joined somewhat later and then he

21    reported to the headquarters of the government and I don't know how long

22    he stayed.  This is what I'm saying.  I don't know how long he stayed in

23    the position as a minister.

24       Q.   And Dr. Aleksa Milojevic, do you remember what post he had?

25       A.   He was in the government, our government.  He was the minister

Page 27237

 1    that we called the minister without portfolio, minister for development.

 2    This is what he dealt in.  He dealt in the theoretical issues of

 3    privatisation and he also belonged to the government but just like Pejic

 4    he also stayed in Belgrade.

 5       Q.   What about Dr. Kalinic, do you remember Dr. Kalinic as being a

 6    member of your government?

 7       A.   Well, yes.  He was also a member of the government.  He was a --

 8    the minister for health, social policies, and so on and so forth.

 9       Q.   Was he effective?

10       A.   Well, I mean, he was there.  Well, he worked but he was also quite

11    close to the president and to the Presidency.  He was up there all the

12    time.  He liked being there.  But, I mean, he was in the ministry too.

13       Q.   You didn't have any special problems with Dr. Kalinic, did you?

14       A.   Well, I mean, well, special ones?  No.

15       Q.   What about Mr. Professor Zukovic, what position did he hold?

16       A.   He was minister of education, that is to say minister for schools

17    and education.  I mean, well, he dealt with education issues and questions

18    from that portfolio generally speaking.

19       Q.   And was he effective?

20       A.   Well, he displayed a certain industriousness in terms of

21    establishing laws or rather adopting laws, organising schools, well,

22    textbooks, and so on and so forth.  He worked.

23       Q.   Mr. Lajic, Nedeljko Lajic, do you remember his post?

24       A.   He was minister for transportation and communication.  And he was

25    always in the centre of the government.

Page 27238

 1       Q.   Was he effective, then?

 2       A.   Well, I mean, under the given circumstances, as they were, I mean,

 3    in view of all sorts of problems, and a breakdown in communications, in

 4    energy pipelines, and so on and so forth, under those circumstances, well,

 5    he did, well, he did, well, as I said, I mean, he worked and he did quite

 6    a bit under the circumstances.

 7       Q.   And Mr. Ostojic, of course, was carrying through the same basic

 8    job, wasn't he, as Minister of Information that he had had since January

 9    1991 in the Bosnia-Herzegovina government, wasn't he?

10       A.   Yes.  I mean, well, yes.  His field was information.  He was a

11    journalist otherwise.  That was right up his alley.  Yes.  Well, he was

12    sort of exposed.

13       Q.   He was the obvious person to take this post in the newly formed

14    Bosnian Serb government, wasn't he?

15       A.   Well, I mean, quite simply, he was a man who was trusted by the

16    party president.  He was a party man.  I think he was a member of these

17    uppermost organs of the party.  He was always in direct contact with the

18    party leadership and the Presidency.  Well, that is to say that in a way

19    he was more in the Presidency than he was in the government.

20       Q.   But when he became a member of the government, you had no reason

21    not to trust him, did you?

22       A.   Well, you know what?  I could not not trust him.  Do you realise I

23    was simply not in that position.  I had people made available to me.  I

24    mean, quite simply, that's the way it was out there at that time.  At that

25    time.  I mean, it's different when you have well-established states based

Page 27239

 1    on the rule of law; when it's different, when you have a Prime Minister

 2    designate who knows about people, who is aware of their CVs and so on.  He

 3    has various possibilities.  I had no such possibilities.  I got people who

 4    had been in the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The government of

 5    Bosnia-Herzegovina and, well, yes, in addition to the government, I mean

 6    people who had been nominated by the party.

 7       Q.   Mr. Djeric, when you accepted the position as president or Prime

 8    Minister of the government of the Bosnian Serb republic, we can take it,

 9    can we, that whatever misgivings you might have had here and there, you

10    were broadly satisfied with the group of people that you were being given

11    as your ministers.  Would you -- is that right?

12       A.   Well, quite simply, that issue was not even being raised.  It was

13    never opened.  A government was established out of ministers who had been

14    members of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I mean, well, in that

15    situation, I couldn't do a thing.  I could only later, when I saw that

16    some ministries were not functioning, I could simply, well, leave.  I

17    mean, at that time.  But at this point in time, well, it was about people

18    who were already members of the government.

19       Q.   Well, Mr. Djeric, I'm going to suggest to you one thing you could

20    have done because in your last answer you said you could simply, well,

21    leave.  At the very beginning, do you agree, if you had not been broadly

22    satisfied with the group of people that you were being asked to lead as

23    the Prime Minister, you could and would and should have simply said, "No,

24    I won't be Prime Minister."  Isn't that -- isn't that right?

25       A.   Well, yes, but I didn't know people.  You see?  Do you understand

Page 27240

 1    what I'm saying?  There were people there who I didn't know.  Well, I

 2    mean, later, when I got to know some of these ministers, I would not have

 3    worked with these people at any cost.  Another thing you have to know:  A

 4    person needs years and years to get to know someone.  And I knew these

 5    people only for a very short period of time, very short.  Some of them I

 6    practically did not know at all.

 7       Q.   Let's be very clear then.  Who are the people you would not have

 8    worked with at any cost if you had known what you came to know?  Let's

 9    have names, please, Mr. Djeric.

10       A.   Well, for instance, with Mandic, Stanisic.  I wouldn't work with

11    the two of them.  Well, I wouldn't work with Trbojevic either, and I mean,

12    well, the -- the minister for the military, I mean, well, quite simply, he

13    got into a clash with the military.  He was on the sidelines all the time.

14    I wouldn't work with people like that either.  I mean, how should we put

15    this?  If they cannot get to the right places, you can't work with people

16    like that either.

17            Then, with these sick people either, Pejic objectively speaking,

18    wouldn't do.  Now I'd really have to look at this individually from one

19    person to another.  I'm telling you -- well, I wouldn't work with those

20    people who very soon set out to Belgrade with their wives and were not at

21    the seat of the government at all.  This government worked only with part

22    of the ministers that were at the seat of the government.  I mean, say,

23    four or five of them.  The others were not there.  And always, well, they

24    were covered up for by the top political leadership.  They are in

25    Belgrade, they have this kind of work, that kind of work and so on and so

Page 27241

 1    forth.  That was the case with Buha.  That was the case with Milojevic.

 2    Well, yeah.  Pejic and so on.

 3       Q.   Do you think, on reflection, Mr. Djeric, that frankly, at this

 4    time, in these very difficult circumstances, this government in the

 5    Bosnian Serb republic just needed a tougher person at the head than you?

 6       A.   Well, you see, well, I mean, well, as far as I'm concerned, well,

 7    it wasn't up to me.  I mean, well, it's not me.  It's not the Prime

 8    Minister.  That's not the issue.  The issue is -- I mean, well, the issue

 9    is the question of the Presidency, because had the government not been

10    hindered from there and had it not been sidelined from there it would have

11    been a completely different government.  That has nothing to do with

12    anything.  Perhaps the resoluteness of the Prime Minister in persevering

13    along the lines of a state based on the rule of law was the reason for

14    well, I mean -- well, for these problems that the government encountered.

15            I keep telling you the government was sidelined.  You know, people

16    know where power lies.  People know when they go towards an office, they

17    know whether there is power in that office.  Then they believe in those

18    people who are in that office.  You know, I as Prime Minister did not

19    attend meetings with international factors, with UNPROFOR, with the

20    military representatives coming from abroad.  Then these people, well, I

21    mean, politicians and so on.  I did not take part in the peace

22    negotiations.  You can establish all of that.  I was thrown out, thrown

23    out, precisely because of my toughness and stamina.  How else can you

24    interpret this?  How can you think that I was fighting the president of

25    the republic?  How can there be that kind of concept if I'm not tough?

Page 27242

 1    How should I put this?  If I'm not someone who is capable of leading a

 2    government.  This has to do with certain people, certain ministers, who

 3    had support from the president of the party, from the party itself.  I

 4    mean, well --

 5       Q.   Are you saying, Mr. Djeric, you're -- let's get clear.  Your

 6    assessment of yourself and this time that you were in government and the

 7    circumstances in which you ceased to be Prime Minister, are that you were

 8    thrown out because you were too tough?  That's your assessment, is it?

 9       A.   Well, I'm not saying too tough.  I mean, I, well, I was asking for

10    a delineation of powers.  One should know what the executive, what the

11    judiciary and what the legislative branches of government are.  How should

12    I put this?  Karadzic thought this -- this was a presidential system.

13    That he was the government, that he was ruling.  And that ministers should

14    orient themselves towards him.  That's where they were -- well, I told you

15    about that yesterday.  The government was 12 kilometres away from the

16    Presidency.  Well, in the Presidency there was Karadzic, then the

17    president of the assembly and two members of the Presidency of the former

18    Bosnia-Herzegovina, Plavsic and Koljevic.  So they were - how should I put

19    it? - this nucleus.  The government and the Prime Minister were 12

20    kilometres away.

21       Q.   Mr. Djeric, your successor, your immediate successor as Prime

22    Minister, was Mr. Vladimir Lukic, wasn't he?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Do you know anything about how he came to be -- I'm not talking

25    about the formal voting.  We can leave that to one side.  Do you know how

Page 27243

 1    he came to be your immediate successor?

 2       A.   Believe me, I don't know very much.  I heard that at the proposal

 3    of Koljevic, he was nominated, appointed.  Now, is that correct, is that

 4    not correct?  I don't know.  Was it because he was from a different

 5    region, not the one where the seat of the government was, I don't know.  I

 6    really don't know the details.  Well, I'm saying what I heard, that

 7    Koljevic practically promoted him and spoke for him to Karadzic and that

 8    is how he was nominated.  Now, I don't know whether that's the way it

 9    actually was or whether it was not that way.

10            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, I'm looking at the clock and I've

11    finished that topic.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stewart just for our own information, we

13    have taken now approximately one hour and a half, we usually have a break,

14    half an hour, 25 minutes, half an hour, then have another session of

15    approximately one hour and a half and then have a bit of a shorter session

16    at the end.  If you would say, if I would continue for another ten

17    minutes, for example, and then have perhaps also a second session which is

18    slightly longer than one hour and a half, if you would say then we would

19    finish, because you know the last session will be shorter anyhow because

20    we have to finish at 6.30, then we could see whether we could do with one

21    break and two slightly extended sessions.  If you say no, that's not

22    possible, then of course we'll have a break now.  If you consider this to

23    be a possibility, I would like to hear.

24            MR. STEWART:  Well, I'd put right out of my mind, Your Honour,

25    that it does make a practical difference on our side of the court, whether

Page 27244

 1    we break before 4.00 or not but your leaving aside that small practical

 2    matter.  The fact is, Your Honour, I would expect to finish comfortably

 3    and with any questions that Your Honour is permitted to Mr. Krajisnik

 4    would expect to finish comfortably before the next break anyway if we just

 5    proceed in the normal course.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  In we have a break.

 7            MR. STEWART:  If we just proceed now according to the normal

 8    course, Your Honour, I'm confident.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  We will have a break now, and we'll have a break for

10    half an hour.  We will resume at 20 minutes past four past.

11                          --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.

12                          --- On resuming at 4.29 p.m.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

14            MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15       Q.   Mr. Djeric, I'm going to hand you a document.

16            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour we photocopied this for convenience of

17    all concerned.  It's P65 binder 12, tab 160.  There is an English and a

18    B/C/S version clipped together.

19       Q.   Mr. Djeric, while you're obviously very sensitive looking at your

20    the copy in your own language at the back, could you just take a minute to

21    familiarise yourself with that.  Let us know, please, whether you've had

22    that chance.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Now, is that first of all is that document at all familiar to you,

25    Mr. Djeric?

Page 27245

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   It's, as you can see, an order on applying the international laws

 3    of war on the army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, showing

 4    it's been signed by Dr. Karadzic 13th of June 1992.

 5            Can -- is it that you just don't remember about such a document or

 6    are you saying that you never knew anything about any such document?

 7       A.   To be honest with you, it wasn't sent to me.  I believe that he

 8    did that but I don't know anything about that.

 9       Q.   You have a --

10       A.   Because it may have gone to the Ministry of Defence and the

11    Ministry of the Interior but not to the government, and on this occasion,

12    I take the opportunity to remind you of the -- of the overall situation,

13    you know.  Anybody could take something from the president or the

14    Presidency and take that directly to their own ministry, bypassing the

15    Prime Minister in doing that.

16       Q.   Can we just be clear, Mr. Djeric?  Is it that you say of this

17    period 14 years ago that you are completely confident when you look at a

18    document like this that it was never sent to you or is it that you just

19    don't remember?

20       A.   Well, you see, I mean, I don't remember.  And by the nature of

21    things, these things did not have anything whatsoever to do with me and

22    they could have something to do with the war -- Ministry of the Interior,

23    in other words the police, and the military, and this may -- might have

24    gone directly to either of the two ministries.

25       Q.   There is nothing in this document which would have caused you any

Page 27246

 1    concern if you had known about it, is there, Mr. Djeric?

 2       A.   I did not understand you, sir.  I didn't understand your question.

 3       Q.   Well, you would have -- if you had specifically seen this

 4    document, you would have approved of it, wouldn't you?

 5       A.   Quite simply, I am not qualified to approve any of these

 6    documents.  It was up to the certain ministries, and subjects that those

 7    things applied to.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djeric, would you please carefully listen to the

 9    question.

10            MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Because the question was reading the content of it,

12    whether you are happy with it, if I may.

13            MR. STEWART:  Yes, I was going to rephrase in a similar way.

14    Thank you, Your Honour, yes.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  So looking at the content, do you say, well, this is

16    fine?

17            MR. STEWART:

18       Q.   It would have been the right thing, wouldn't it, Mr. Djeric?

19       A.   Please, I can talk only about the spirit of the document.  In

20    other words, my position is that one has to comply the rules of the

21    international law, in the spirit of the document, that is, and as for

22    certain details, I can't, about that I can't say anything about that.

23    This applies to the military personnel and the police officers.  As for

24    the spirit of the document, absolutely, strict compliance with the

25    international law, if I understood you correctly, that is.  And that means

Page 27247

 1    whoever violates the rules of the international law, those people have to

 2    be taken to task.

 3       Q.   I'm going to turn to a different topic, Mr. Djeric.  Did you

 4    sometime in -- and I'm going to suggest to you it was July 1992 -- receive

 5    any report relating to the treatment of Mr. Ostojic by a group known as

 6    the yellow wasps?

 7       A.   There were rumours that he was stopped somewhere on the Drina, and

 8    that allegedly he was forced to -- actually he was ill treated.  This is

 9    what I heard.  He was also a bit extremist himself.  It resounded quite

10    well.

11       Q.   Well, perhaps we can clear up, please, what you're saying there.

12    When you said he was also a bit extremist, himself, what did you mean?

13       A.   Well, in many things, he was extreme.  Firstly, in party terms,

14    his only concern was the party and so on and so forth.  How shall I put

15    it?  He was rather exclusive and he was always in conflict with

16    journalists and that are the reason for which I would never want to see

17    him in the government.  He was of extreme views with regard to many of the

18    things that the government fought for.  He was always against many things,

19    and he was the first among those who were against me when I resigned.  A

20    while ago you asked me about me being firm.  In your view, would I have

21    been firm if I had fought for pensions not being paid to the Muslims?  And

22    an at one point the party and the party leaders put a ban on that and I

23    had a host of problems to lift the blockade from paying pensions to the

24    Muslims.  Would I have been firm enough if I had organised parties across

25    the river Drina?  Other people did that.  I didn't do that.  Would I have

Page 27248

 1    been firm if I had not proposed that Muslims should be members of the

 2    government and judges?   I proposed those things at the beginning in May,

 3    June, when people were put forward for the municipal bodies.  I proposed

 4    Muslims and Croats everywhere.

 5            Unlike Ostojic and the likes of him, I did not want the apartments

 6    to be occupied permanently.  I was in favour of temporary decisions for

 7    the occupation of apartments.

 8            One had to have enough power and force to fight for that, and many

 9    used that and they related to some other concepts.  He had a different

10    opinion.  That is why there was always a hostility of the party and the

11    party leadership towards me.  And that animosity existed towards me.  In

12    other words, you have to bear that in mind.  It was a very difficult when

13    you have only one party, only one set of mind and the conditions such as

14    they were, it was very difficult to fight for some normal things.  One had

15    to have courage.  One had to have courage to resign and to leave at a

16    certain point.  Why did the others not do that?  I was not power thirsty

17    then, I'm not now.  If you can do things in a normal way, if you can find

18    normal solutions, fine.  If that is not the case, well, one of those

19    people was Ostojic.  He was -- I remember that there were rumours.  I

20    would not remember those rumours if they -- if he was not in the centre of

21    those rumours and if he had not been forced to graze grass.  I mean, that

22    is what lingers in my memory from those times.  It would not linger if he

23    wasn't the way he was, I mean, I have -- well, I don't know anything.  I

24    have just -- I don't know.

25       Q.   Mr. Djeric, we've heard evidence that Mr. Ostojic himself --

Page 27249

 1            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour the transcript reference is 26686,

 2    Judge, His Honour Judge Hanoteau asked some questions at that time for two

 3    or three pages.  I'll start again.

 4       Q.   We've heard evidence that Mr. Ostojic?

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, by any chance would you have the date.

 6            MR. STEWART:  Yes, I have.  It was the 4th of July an easy to

 7    remember date, I think.  Sorry, I didn't mean that at all rudely,

 8    Your Honour.

 9       Q.   Mr. Djeric, Mr. Ostojic -- there was evidence that Mr. Ostojic

10    told all the members of the cabinet, the government, about this incident

11    when he said he had been, quite badly in his view, maltreated by the

12    yellow wasps.  Is that right, that all the members of the government,

13    cabinet, including you, were told by Mr. Ostojic?

14       A.   I don't remember that he told that to the cabinet members.  I

15    heard it on the grapevine from those sources.  I know all that.  I don't

16    know that he told the story to the government.  I can't remember that at

17    all.

18       Q.   Can you say, again, whether you can be clear that he didn't tell

19    you directly or that you just don't remember whether he did?

20       A.   I mean, I don't remember.  Quite simply I don't remember.  But I

21    mean, I'm saying that I heard rumours about that.  I heard it on the

22    grapevine.  I heard about that event.

23       Q.   Were you yourself involved in any follow-up to that incident

24    involving the yellow wasps and Mr. Ostojic?

25       A.   No.  What do you mean when you say follow-up.

Page 27250

 1       Q.   Well, were you involved in any action in response to Mr. Ostojic's

 2    reported ill treatment at the hands of the yellow wasps?

 3       A.   I don't think so.  Quite simply, I don't think that would be

 4    something that I would deal with.

 5       Q.   Do you know what was done about it?

 6       A.   I don't know.  I don't know any details of that.

 7       Q.   Do you know about any actions of Mr. Davidovic in relation to

 8    yellow wasps?

 9       A.   I don't know.

10            MR. STEWART:  Would Your Honour give me a moment, please?

11                          [Defence counsel confer]

12            MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

13                          [Defence counsel confer]

14            MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've no further questions of Mr. Djeric.

15    But, Your Honour, I think it likely -- we have discussed the matter as we

16    always do and should.  I think it's nevertheless likely that Mr. Krajisnik

17    may ask Your Honours for an opportunity to put questions himself.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Krajisnik, would you wish to put any

19    additional question to Mr. Djeric?

20            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have only two

21    questions, if I may.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then before I give you an opportunity to put

23    those questions to Mr. Djeric, Mr. Krajisnik, you're instructed not to

24    introduce questions by referring to -- that is about misunderstandings or

25    these kind of things with certain inappropriate context, and so therefore

Page 27251

 1    you should refrain from that and you should address the witness either by

 2    his family name or, as -- so Mr. Djeric or Witness.  That's all fine.  It

 3    should not in any way get the atmosphere of people who know each other and

 4    know what one expects from one another.  That's -- you may put questions

 5    to the witness.  Please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik.

 6            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 7       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Djeric.

 8       A.   Good afternoon, Momo.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  I'd also like you to address Mr. Krajisnik as

10    everyone does in this courtroom, that's Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Krajisnik

11    addresses you as Mr. Djeric.  Yes?  Please.  Please, well, you exchanged a

12    good afternoon.

13            Mr. Krajisnik, put your question to Mr. Djeric, or your questions.

14                          Examination by Mr. Krajisnik:

15       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Djeric, did Mr. Djokanovic ever tell you

16    about some crimes that had taken place in Zvornik?

17       A.   I don't remember.

18       Q.   Very well, then.  With this regard --

19       A.   Why would he tell me anything?

20       Q.   Very well, very well.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  You don't remember.  And whether there would have

22    been any reason to tell you is not what Mr. Krajisnik asked you.  So if he

23    would like to know, he'll certainly ask you.  Yes.

24            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   I'm asking this because Mr. Djokanovic testified before this Trial

Page 27252

 1    Chamber and your answer, "I don't know," is satisfactory.  I just want to

 2    know whether you remember any such thing?

 3       A.   No I don't remember any such thing because Mr. Djokanovic spent

 4    most of his time down there.  You know that he was in Koljevic's office,

 5    in Radovan's office.  He was not in my office.

 6       Q.   Very well, then.  Second question:  Since you said that you know

 7    Mr. Davidovic, do you remember that Mr. Davidovic provided security in

 8    April and May, the government, on Mount Jahorina?

 9       A.   Don't remember that.  Mr. Krajisnik, I met Davidovic in Bijeljina,

10    in Bijeljina, when I had a meeting there.  He was there with a unit, I

11    don't know which unit that was, and he introduced himself to me and that's

12    how I got to know him.  I don't know anything about what happened to him

13    later.

14       Q.   These were the only two questions that I had.  Thank you very

15    much.  I'm satisfied with your answer.

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Thank you very much.  I

25    would like to thank the witness, Mr. Djeric.

Page 27253

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is there any need for -- the Bench has no

 2    further questions.  Mr. Tieger?

 3            MR. TIEGER:  No, Your Honour, no further questions.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djeric, this means that this concludes your

 5    evidence in this Court.  I'd like to thank you for having come to The

 6    Hague and for having answered questions from the Bench, Prosecution and

 7    Defence, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

 8            Mr. Usher would you please escort Mr. Djeric out of the courtroom?

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would also like to thank you

10    deeply and -- thank you.  I would like to thank you the auditorium as

11    well.

12                          [The witness withdrew]

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In order to keep matters as neutral as

14    possible, and also because I expressly asked the parties not to deal with

15    certain matters in this courtroom, it's my suggestion that we strike off

16    the record, although appreciated, the irrelevant remark from

17    Mr. Krajisnik.

18            Mr. Krajisnik, that does not mean that it's not in my ears any

19    more, it just means that it's not on paper any more.  Unless any of the

20    parties would disagree I would like to have page 44, lines 10 up to and

21    including 17 out, stricken from the record.  I see nodding yes.

22            MR. STEWART:  Yes, Your Honour, and I should say I apologise

23    perhaps it was remiss of me not have to have passed on your request

24    specifically to Mr. Krajisnik.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Let's not spend any more words about it.

Page 27254

 1            Yes.  Then I -- there are a few matters -- of minor matters, I

 2    would say, which I'd like to deal with.  The first one is we discussed

 3    earlier today the issue of tendering a selection from the bridge

 4    negotiations video.  Is there any agreement yet reached by the parties?

 5            MR. JOSSE:  What I was going to suggest, and I know my learned

 6    friends are agreeable to, is that the registrar assigns one number now to

 7    the bridge video, a second number now to the Islamic declaration, and that

 8    the parties abide by the timetable in relation to exhibits, to provide the

 9    relevant documentation, one to the Registry and two to the Chamber.  In

10    other words, no documents will be handed up at this moment but numbers

11    will be assigned.  That's our agreed suggestion.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13                          [Trial Chamber confers]

14            JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber follows the suggestion of the parties.

15    Mr. Registrar, you're invited to at this moment assign two exhibit numbers

16    although we haven't received the exhibit yet.

17            THE REGISTRAR:  The bridge video Your Honours will be given

18    exhibit number D259 and the document containing the Islamic Declaration

19    will be given Exhibit D260.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Then the parties were also

21    invited to agree upon a date by which any documentation or sentencing

22    testimonial would be filed.  Have the parties agreed on a date?

23            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, we would suggest the same dates as we

24    agreed on the other matter.

25            MR. HARMON:  That is acceptable, Your Honour.

Page 27255

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  And now I have to -- wasn't that the 18th of August

 2    to be filed and any --

 3            MR. HARMON:  It was the 10th, Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  The 10th, yes, and then the 12th for any objections.

 5            MR. HARMON:  Correct.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber accepts this proposal and reminds

 7    the parties what was earlier said about late filing and consequences for

 8    final briefs and final argument, that it should not later on become a

 9    reason not to follow the scheduling in that respect.

10            Then the Chamber informs the parties that, apart from what we made

11    minor mistakes which now and then causes the Registry to return decisions

12    to us because there are three different dates on it, things like that, but

13    that I signed a decision on exhibits today and it's expected to be filed,

14    a decision which would include a decision on briefly said the Karadzic

15    notebook and the Karadzic letter.  So the parties can consult and take

16    note of that decision which has been a written decision.

17            Is there any other practical matter at this moment to be raised,

18    apart from --

19            MR. HARMON:  Not on behalf of the Prosecution, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart.

21            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, just this.  Just briefly before

22    Your Honours came into court, Mr. Krajisnik had mentioned to me that from

23    the CDs which he had produced in the course of his evidence, he has in

24    mind about -- he told me about a dozen documents that he would like to be

25    put in evidence.  Your Honour, that's as much as I know because we haven't

Page 27256

 1    had a chance to discuss or consider specifically what they are.  So I pass

 2    that on, Your Honour.  Whether they would go in as -- whether they can

 3    constitute contextual documents.  It's a bit difficult for me to say,

 4    Your Honour, because I only know what I've just told Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Krajisnik, I take it that Mr. Stewart is well

 6    informed.  My question is:  Would there be a possibility for Defence

 7    counsel to find out, together with Mr. Krajisnik, before he returns

 8    perhaps to the UNDU, whether they are clearly identified because the first

 9    thing would be to identify what documents exactly we are talking about,

10    then it could be considered that the same time limits would be set for

11    both filing, perhaps these documents as tendered as contextual exhibits,

12    and that there would be another two days for the Prosecution to object to

13    any admission.

14            MR. TIEGER:  With the only caveat being the size of the documents,

15    the numbers appear to be --

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Then the other question, of course, would be whether

17    they are -- in what language they are.

18            Mr. Krajisnik, could you tell us, the documents you identified as

19    so important that you'd like to have them in evidence, are they in -- is

20    an English translation available?

21            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There are English translations for

22    many of them.  As for the due date, so to speak, if there are no English

23    translations then they don't even have to be admitted into evidence.

24    Those documents, I mean.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  May I then at this moment leave it to Defence counsel

Page 27257

 1    to seek contact with Mr. Krajisnik to see whether the documents can be

 2    identified and then select those documents already translated into English

 3    and to look after it that on behalf of Mr. Krajisnik these documents will

 4    be filed, or at least disclosed, not that this material is not yet

 5    disclosed to the Prosecution, but that the Prosecution knows and receives

 6    copies or at least such an indication that they can find the material

 7    either on the CDs so that they can consider whether they would like to

 8    object to admission into evidence of those documents, and -- one second.

 9                          [Trial Chamber confers]

10            JUDGE ORIE:  And keeping in mind that the recess might cause some

11    problems in finalising formalities, as far as filing is concerned, the

12    Chamber will not, for those purposes only, that is that formalities are

13    not finalised yet, will not for that reason decide not to admit the

14    documents.  So most important for the Chamber is that the Prosecution is

15    well aware by the 10th of August what these documents are, only documents

16    with an English translation, that the Prosecution then has a -- until the

17    12th of August to make any objections.  Of course, the Chamber will then

18    give a decision.  But if, for example, the formal filing would not have

19    been completed by the 10th of October due to practical problems which

20    might arise out of the recess, then the Chamber will not consider them as

21    of such importance that they should oppose the admission into evidence.

22            MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour did say October.  Clearly meant August.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It means that -- and that perhaps then is my

24    last point.  Unless there is anything else to be raised at this moment.

25    No further matters?

Page 27258

 1            MR. STEWART:  No, thank you, Your Honour.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  I wanted to say that this mistake clearly indicates

 3    that everyone needs perhaps a bit of rest, although it might not be a

 4    complete rest because counsel remain counsel even during the holidays.

 5    Judges remain judges even during the holidays.  Nevertheless, I wish

 6    everyone the rest they need at this moment.

 7            We will adjourn and we'll proceed in accordance with the

 8    scheduling as set by the Chamber before, which means that apart from

 9    filings, that we would be in this courtroom again on Tuesday, the 29th of

10    August, in the afternoon.  We then sit at Wednesday, the 30th of August,

11    in the morning, and on the 31st of August in the afternoon, always this

12    courtroom, for closing argument.

13            We stand adjourned.

14                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.07 a.m.,

15                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day of

16                          August, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.