1 Monday, 6 November 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case number IT-97-25-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith, you were examining Mr. Lojo.

10 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honours. Good morning.

11 WITNESS: DZEVAD LOJO [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Smith: [Continued]

14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Lojo.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. Last Thursday I asked you the question, when you arrived in the KP

17 Dom on the 19th of April, who appeared to be in charge. I said, "Was it a

18 civilian or military authority?" You answered: "At that time people were

19 just being brought in in numbers." The intensive groups which you'd

20 previously described as well-trained paramilitary groups from Serbia, and

21 to some extent joined by locals, were the ones who brought people in; and

22 after only about a month, the guard service had been established and

23 internal relations had begun to be organised.

24 Do you remember saying that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now, on the 19th of April, those first few days when you arrived

2 at the KP Dom, who were the guards inside the KP Dom? Were they the same

3 as the paramilitary groups that were bringing the Muslim detainees in, or

4 were they a different group?

5 A. In those early days when I was brought to the KP Dom, I think that

6 at that time the guard service had not been put in place yet, and we found

7 there some -- to begin with I said that one could often see so-called

8 guardsmen, but they were members of paramilitary units who kept bringing

9 in new prisoners all the time. And around the KP Dom, around the

10 penitentiary, which also has a very tall -- high wall, one could see there

11 some guards, and some of them even had dogs.

12 But I do not think that right at the beginning they were those

13 same guards who later on regularly performed their work duty. I cannot

14 say definitely when it was that regular guards came, but it was at an

15 early stage; that I am sure of.

16 Q. In any event, you've stated that the guard service had been

17 established within about a month or shortly after a month, and internal

18 relations were organised.

19 A. I think that is about it, yes.

20 Q. And when did the -- the paramilitary troops, when did they leave?

21 A. They left shortly after we came. I think they were there for

22 about a month. I cannot fix the date because I simply was not in a

23 position to follow their movements all the time. But be that as it may,

24 they left about a month after I was brought to the KP Dom, they just

25 disappeared. Or perhaps it could have been as much as two months, but I

1 don't think they were there longer than two months.

2 Q. When the internal relations within the KP Dom had been organised,

3 who were the guards? Were they local people from the Foca municipality?

4 Were they from outside? Who were they?

5 A. When the guards were organised, those were only those men who did

6 the same job before in the KP Dom. There could have been a new person

7 here and there, simply to replenish it to the strength and organise proper

8 the guard shifts.

9 Q. Do you know these guards as being people who worked at the KP Dom

10 before the war broke out, or did you learn that afterwards?

11 A. I did not know them because I never worked in the penitentiary.

12 But there were -- amongst us there were also guards of Muslim origin who

13 used to work for the penitentiary before the war, and one could see from

14 the way they behaved that they knew those guards very well, I mean their

15 fellow guards.

16 Q. And what did these guards wear?

17 A. Well, they had uniforms and I think that those were camouflage

18 uniforms, by and large. In the beginning they looked like military

19 camouflage uniforms rather than the police ones. The police camouflage

20 uniforms which were of blue/grey colours, they appeared later.

21 Q. And the colour of the uniforms that the guards wore, what was

22 that?

23 A. I think they were many-coloured, but I should say grey/green

24 combinations in a regular pattern.

25 Q. Do you know who the guards' supervisor was, their immediate

1 supervisor?

2 A. I assume it was a person whom we later on came to know very well

3 and who was the guards' commander, and his name was Mitar Rasevic. He was

4 the commander of the guards, the chief of the guards.

5 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I'd just ask that P18 be placed on the

6 ELMO. If the usher could do that, please. Prosecution Exhibit -- sorry,

7 Prosecution Exhibit 88; it's a sketch of the KP Dom.

8 Q. Mr. Lojo, do you know whether Mr. Rasevic had an office at the KP

9 Dom?

10 A. I don't, I really don't. All I know is he was somewhere here in

11 the administrative building.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

13 microphone. We could not hear the end of the sentence.

14 A. Perhaps you did not hear. I really do not know where his office

15 was exactly, but I guess it was in this part of the administrative

16 building.

17 MR. SMITH:

18 Q. Can you place the pointer on that part of the building again?

19 Thank you.

20 A. I'm not sure if it was in part 1 or part 2, but my guess is that

21 it was somewhere here.

22 MR. SMITH: The witness indicated buildings 1 and 2 on P88.

23 Q. At that time, about a month after you arrived at the KP Dom, did

24 you know who was in charge of the prison, of KP Dom?

25 A. I did not know it at that time. At that time, I didn't know who

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1 was at the head of the penitentiary. "At that time" is a rather vague

2 term, but I should say that until at least mid-May I was not aware of who

3 was the warden of the KP Dom.

4 Q. And after mid-May did you become aware of who was the warden at

5 KP Dom?

6 A. Later on, I did learn that Mr. Krnojelac had become the warden of

7 the KP Dom.

8 Q. And what is Mr. Krnojelac's first name?

9 A. I'm not quite sure right now.

10 Q. Did you know Mr. Krnojelac from before the war?

11 A. Yes. Yes, even though not closely. I knew him because he was my

12 teacher at school. And I knew some other teachers -- I knew them better

13 than him -- who were his fellow teachers. Some of these teachers were my

14 next-door neighbours.

15 Q. Are you aware of what he taught at school?

16 A. Yes, maths.

17 Q. Can you look around the courtroom today. Do you see Mr. Krnojelac

18 in the courtroom?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Please indicate Mr. Krnojelac to the Court. Can you point? Can

21 you point with your finger?

22 A. Mr. Krnojelac is over there.

23 JUDGE HUNT: That does not help very much.

24 MR. SMITH: No, it doesn't, Your Honour. Just for certainty.

25 JUDGE HUNT: But it still doesn't help to have recorded who it is

1 he's pointing to. He should be able to say whether he is standing or

2 seated or whatever the position is.

3 MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Mr. Lojo, could you describe where Mr. Krnojelac is in the

5 courtroom, who he's sitting next to, and what they are wearing?

6 A. Mr. Krnojelac sits on my left next to the window, if that is a

7 window. No. That is a booth. So next to the booths, between two

8 policemen. He is wearing glasses and a headset. He has a black suit and

9 a white shirt.

10 JUDGE HUNT: I think that records that he is pointing to the

11 accused. Thank you.

12 MR. SMITH:

13 Q. Did you ever have any meetings with Mr. Krnojelac at the KP Dom?

14 A. I met Mr. Krnojelac twice.

15 Q. When was the first meeting?

16 A. Once it was at my and my brother's request when we asked to speak

17 to him and announced our visit through the guard service because we wanted

18 to talk to the warden, Krnojelac. At that time, we discussed or, rather,

19 we tried to discuss if it will be possible for me and my brother to leave

20 the prison somehow and to go through Montenegro to Macedonia because

21 that's where our families were waiting. My family had been taken there --

22 had been taken there, and she was alone with four children, the eldest one

23 being 15. My brother's wife was also there, whereas his children were in

24 Sarajevo.

25 Q. Where was this meeting held?

1 A. We met here in a part of structure 3, building 3. No, no, no.

2 No, not 3, 2. Here on the ground floor there is an office which is

3 envisaged for those visiting prisoners, here, somewhere in this part but

4 on the other side.

5 MR. SMITH: The witness indicates building number 2, on the ground

6 floor, on Exhibit P88.

7 Q. When was this meeting was held? Do you know what month?

8 A. Well, that happened, I think, sometime in mid-June 1992.

9 Q. And you were --

10 A. Of course, I cannot be sure about the date, but as far as I can

11 remember, it was about then.

12 Q. How did you request to speak to Mr. Krnojelac? Who did you ask to

13 be able to meet with him?

14 A. Well, to meet him we had to ask guards for that, and write our

15 names on a piece of paper and then give it to the guard who then gave it

16 to the warden or somebody in the administration and then we waited to be

17 called in.

18 Q. And why did you specifically ask to see Mr. Krnojelac?

19 A. Well, because we thought that Mr. Krnojelac was an objective man,

20 a realist, that he would understand the situation we were in. My brother

21 is also a teacher, a lecturer, and I even think that Krnojelac was his

22 student. I'm not absolutely sure about this, of course, but I think he

23 was.

24 However, the chief reason was, of course, the precarious situation

25 in that camp. And we knew things that were going on. The situation was

1 very hard, and we thought we should try, if it were possible, to get on to

2 some exchange as quickly as possible. We knew that there were some

3 deportations for people. And because we did not want to take part in the

4 war, we simply wanted to get to our families as quickly as possible.

5 Q. Did a guard escort you to the place where Mr. Krnojelac was or did

6 you go there of your own accord?

7 A. He escorted us. We could not go there alone.

8 Q. And who was in the room with this meeting with Mr. Krnojelac? You

9 mentioned your brother and yourself. Was there anyone else with you

10 during that meeting?

11 A. An individual who at that time often supervised visitors, but he

12 perhaps entered only once in the beginning, but Mr. Krnojelac told him to

13 let us be, to have our discussion without him interrupting us.

14 Q. Who was this person? Was he a guard or was he some other -- did

15 he have some other role at the KP Dom?

16 A. I know that person very well because he was there throughout our

17 imprisonment. His surname is Matovic -- I don't think I mentioned his

18 name in my statement -- and I believe he was in charge of some security

19 matters.

20 Q. After Mr. Krnojelac told this person to let you be and to stop

21 interrupting, what did this person do? Did he stay or leave?

22 A. He left and closed the door. The door was shut after he left.

23 Q. What was Mr. Krnojelac's response to your request to your release

24 from the KP Dom?

25 A. Well, perhaps he was slightly nervous when he said, "Just leave us

1 alone. Don't interrupt."

2 If I may add to my earlier statement why we went there. One of

3 the reasons why we asked to be received was to express our condolences to

4 Mr. Krnojelac because we had learned that his son had been severely

5 wounded. So that was one of the reasons for our asking to see him.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours, but I'm not

8 quite sure that the transcript or, rather, what it says in the transcript,

9 I'm not sure that the witness answered the Prosecutor's question, because

10 in line 20, it says that Krnojelac -- no. Excuse me. "What did Krnojelac

11 answer?" That is the question of the Prosecutor. That is line 20. And

12 in 22 is that he was slightly nervous and said, "Leave us alone."

13 Now, it is not quite clear. Did he say that to the person who

14 entered the office? Because I understood that the Prosecutor was asking

15 what was Mr. Krnojelac's response to the request of the witness and his

16 brother. So could we have this clarified, whether this sentence was

17 addressed to the guard or, rather, that person who entered or was that

18 addressed to the witness and his brother.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Don't --

20 A. May I answer?

21 JUDGE HUNT: Just wait for a moment.

22 Mr. Bakrac, the question was: "What was Mr. Krnojelac's

23 response?" which is an imprecise word. And the witness was merely telling

24 us what I understood to be his reaction, not what -- his answer or what he

25 had said in answer to the Prosecution's question.

1 May I suggest, leave it to the Prosecution. They'll sort that one

2 out. If they don't feel it's an answer to their question, they can ask

3 again. But there is certainly no ambiguity in the answer. And the fact

4 that it may be a non-responsive answer does not mean that it is not

5 relevant to the case.

6 Now, Mr. Lojo, you wanted to explain your answer, did you?

7 A. Yes. I don't think there will be any logic in his doing so,

8 namely, after that individual entered the office to control it -- to check

9 it from time to time. I don't think there would be any logic in

10 Mr. Krnojelac saying that to us, that is, that he expected an answer from

11 us.

12 He told the individual who entered and he was bothering us in our

13 regular conversation. He told him, "Just leave us alone," and, "Close the

14 door when you leave."

15 MR. SMITH:

16 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I'd like to go back to -- sorry. Mr. Lojo, I'd

17 like to go back to Mr. Krnojelac's attitude to your request for release

18 from the KP Dom. What did he say in response to your request?

19 A. He said that as far as he knew, something was being done about an

20 exchange, that is, to have some detainees released through Montenegro.

21 And he even gave us some order of magnitude, that is, a busful, that is,

22 that there was this suggestion, which was under consideration, that a

23 busful of prisoners should leave the prison, that is, and go through

24 Montenegro.

25 Q. Was it your understanding that you may have been on that bus on

1 the basis of what Mr. Krnojelac said?

2 A. He did not promise anything to me directly, but that is how I

3 understood it. I thought it would be natural, seeing that I was the one

4 who was asking about it, that it would be only logical for me to be on

5 that bus too and to go to Montenegro.

6 Q. After this meeting was completed, were you ever taken for exchange

7 from the KP Dom before, obviously, you left in 1994?

8 A. On another occasion, and I think it was sometime in mid-July, I

9 was taken for some exchange or other, but it never took place.

10 Q. After this failed exchange, did you ever meet with Mr. Krnojelac

11 again?

12 A. Yes. I was summoned twice because of failed exchange; once by an

13 inspector, whose name was Koprivica; and a few days later, or perhaps ten

14 days later or so, I was also summoned by Krnojelac, together with Rasim

15 Jusufovic. I think -- I don't know if he will be a witness or not.

16 Excuse me, I do not have a list of protected witnesses in front of me;

17 perhaps it would be useful for me to have it. And so we talked;

18 Mr. Krnojelac wanted to know why the exchange had failed.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 JUDGE HUNT: We'd better have Exhibit P397, which the witness had

21 on Thursday.

22 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Who is Mr. Koprivica? You said he was an inspector.

24 A. Koprivica, yes, is one of the inspectors who interrogated

25 prisoners.

1 Q. Where was this second meeting held with Mr. Krnojelac?

2 A. I am not absolutely sure, but I think it took place in the same

3 place, that is, in structure 2, which I have already mentioned.

4 Q. You stated that you were summoned by Mr. Krnojelac. How were you

5 taken to the room in which Mr. Krnojelac was in?

6 A. One of the guards on duty came again with a piece of paper, read

7 out my name, and told me I was to go and see the warden.

8 Q. When you saw Mr. Krnojelac in that room, what did he say to you?

9 A. He asked me why did I think the exchange had been thwarted, and I

10 told him what I had heard from guards who had taken us for the exchange;

11 that the reason for it was that the Bosniak side from Gorazde did not want

12 to exchange military captives, prisoners of war, from the front for a mass

13 of civilians.

14 In the group in which I was for the exchange, there was also a

15 group of civilians rounded up from the youth centre or the Partizan

16 Physical Culture Club, and those were mostly women; there were also some

17 80-year-old men and lots of small children. They were on a separate bus

18 and we were on a truck, on a small truck.

19 Q. Was there anything -- sorry. Was there anything further promised

20 from Mr. Krnojelac after this discussion about the failed exchange or not?

21 A. It is possible. I mean, I repeated once again, "Well, is there

22 some possibility for us to go out?" I cannot remember it down to the last

23 word, but it could have been in that sense that some information was

24 exchanged.

25 Q. Was there anything further discussed at the meeting other than

1 this failed exchange?

2 A. Of course we tried to discuss food whenever we had some

3 opportunity to do so because at that time the quality of food was very

4 poor.

5 Q. And what was Mr. Krnojelac's response to that? What did he say in

6 relation to the food?

7 A. I think -- I believe he mentioned that he would try to see about

8 slightly increasing the quantity of bread, and in about half a month or

9 so, another slice of bread was added to our rations or, rather, half a

10 slice.

11 Q. Other than the food, was anything further discussed?

12 A. As far as I remember, no. It was a very brief conversation.

13 Q. Do you know what functions and responsibilities Mr. Krnojelac had

14 at the KP Dom, from what you observed or from what you heard?

15 A. On the basis of what I knew about the post of warden, he had very

16 high authority; he was even closely linked to the republican authorities

17 before. But how things were regulated at that time and what his powers

18 were at that time, I couldn't really say anything about that. These were

19 special times, times of war.

20 Q. You've mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden of KP Dom.

21 What led you to believe that? What was the basis of you concluding that

22 he was the warden of KP Dom?

23 A. Earlier on we had had information from the guards that he was the

24 warden. If anybody was to be spoken to, he was the only person who was

25 competent, who was in charge of dealing with certain requests, wishes, et

1 cetera. Had I not known that he was the warden, I certainly would not

2 have asked for a meeting with him, nor would anything like that have taken

3 place.

4 Sorry. Also, there would not have been any point in him asking me

5 to come and see him and asking why the exchange was not carried through.

6 This only meant that he was a person who did have certain powers.

7 Q. You've mentioned that you met Mr. Krnojelac on two occasions, you

8 had two meetings with him. Did you see him at the KP Dom other than those

9 two meetings throughout the weeks that he was present?

10 A. Yes, I saw him often, especially in the morning when he toured the

11 buildings, especially the kitchen, I guess; perhaps also the other

12 facilities. Perhaps he also went to the furniture factory. Often, I

13 think, he was accompanied by the other officials of the KP Dom, that is to

14 say, his associates.

15 Q. Who are some of the other officials at the KP Dom that you saw

16 Mr. Krnojelac with? If you don't know, just say "I don't know"; but if

17 you do, if you could state their names.

18 A. I can certainly remember one name or a few names. I mentioned the

19 commander of the guards, Mitar Rasevic. And I would also mention the

20 deputy, his deputy; that was Todovic.

21 Q. What did Mr. Todovic do at the KP Dom?

22 A. Todovic, I think, in my opinion, was in charge of direct contacts

23 with the prisoners and of the organisation of certain things that had to

24 be done. I think he was also authorised for the allocation of prisoners

25 in different cells. He would also set up working groups for certain

1 things that were to be done. He would also give lists to guards and tell

2 them that certain things had to be done. Of course, he did certain things

3 that I believe he should not have done; I am referring to matters of

4 security.

5 Q. Do you know Mr. Todovic's first name?

6 A. I think it was Savo. Savo Todovic. I've just remembered.

7 Q. And why did you think that Mr. Todovic was Mr. Krnojelac's

8 deputy? What led you to believe that? What led you to know that?

9 A. I think that we got that information from the guards too. If

10 persons were to see the warden, then they would not see Todovic. Todovic

11 behaved like a man who also had high authority, especially high authority

12 in respect of direct contacts with prisoners.

13 Q. What did Mr. Todovic wear at the KP Dom?

14 A. He wore different clothes. Sometimes he wore a camouflage

15 uniform, but a lot of times he wore civilian clothes.

16 Q. And when he wore camouflage, what colour was that?

17 A. I cannot specify that very accurately. Usually he had a military

18 jacket, green, but most of the time he wore some kind of civilian clothes;

19 or a combination of civilian and military clothes, something like that.

20 Q. Do you know what Mr. Krnojelac wore at the KP Dom?

21 A. I never saw Krnojelac in civilian clothes, only in a camouflage

22 military uniform.

23 Q. And what colour camouflage?

24 A. That is multi-coloured, green, white.

25 Q. Are you aware of whether Mr. Krnojelac had an office at the

1 KP Dom?

2 A. I directly did not know. I mean, that means that perhaps I was

3 not in his office, but it would have been normal, all things considered,

4 for him to have an office. A warden of a prison has the highest authority

5 there, and it is only natural for him to have an office. And around the

6 office, there should be other auxiliary rooms that are needed for meetings

7 with his collaborators, et cetera.

8 Q. But you do not know where that office was?

9 A. I know where this office was of the previous pre-war warden. It

10 was here in this building number 2, and it was somewhere upstairs. I

11 think it was perhaps on the top floor.

12 MR. SMITH: The witness indicates building number 2, top floor, on

13 Exhibit P88.

14 Q. You indicated that that was the place where the previous warden's

15 office was. Do you know whether that office was used by Mr. Krnojelac or

16 do you not know?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

18 JUDGE HUNT: He's already said that he doesn't know. Is there any

19 point in asking him again?

20 MR. SMITH: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Is that what your objection was, Mr. Bakrac?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

24 MR. SMITH:

25 Q. Do you know how long Mr. Krnojelac was the warden at KP Dom?

1 A. I don't know. I don't know exactly, but I believe for sure it

2 must have been all of 1992 that he was at the KP Dom, perhaps even part of

3 the beginning of 1993.

4 Q. Were you aware of Mr. Krnojelac leaving the KP Dom at some stage?

5 A. Yes. Yes, we knew. During one stage, he had simply disappeared.

6 Instead of him, I assume that all the duties of deputy warden were carried

7 out by Mr. Savo Todovic. As far as I can remember in terms of time, Savo

8 Todovic carried out these duties on his own perhaps for about ten months

9 or so, perhaps even a year, because later, a new warden came again.

10 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to ask you some questions about the

11 treatment of Muslim detainees whilst you were at KP Dom. I'd first like

12 to ask you by looking at an exhibit that will be put in front of you.

13 MR. SMITH: In fact, the exhibit that is in front of him at the

14 moment.

15 Q. If you look at the map on the ELMO. For the year of 1992 and

16 1993, what room did you stay in?

17 A. I was in Room 15, building number 8, on the top floor, to the

18 right from the entrance door. That is Room 15. That is where I spent

19 most of my time. However, first I was brought to this room here. I think

20 that was Room 13. Perhaps this was 11. The shape of the rooms is the

21 same except that they are one underneath the other.

22 I think that in my statement I said that this was Room 13, but it

23 is possible that it might have been 11 as well.

24 Q. Could you indicate Room 15 on that drawing by keeping the pointer

25 still on the map?

1 JUDGE HUNT: While he's doing that it should be alerted that he's

2 pointing at what we've just been describing as building A. It's not so

3 labelled on this document, unfortunately.

4 A. For me this is number 8.

5 JUDGE HUNT: It was not a criticism, Mr. Lojo. We have another

6 document where the building is labelled as "A", and the one on the

7 right-hand side [Realtime transcript read in error "left side"] is

8 building B, and it's the other document, I think, that we'll be referring

9 to.

10 MR. SMITH: On the ELMO, Your Honour, I see the figure "A" on the

11 left-hand side of the building. It's small.

12 JUDGE HUNT: It certainly is.

13 MR. SMITH: The witness indicated a room on the section of the

14 building adjoining building A and building B, on the top floor, and the

15 right-hand side window.

16 Q. How long did you stay in Room 15?

17 A. I think until mid-September. Something like that.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. I notice in the transcript that if I

19 am correctly reported, I had building A on the right and building B on the

20 left. I don't think I actually said that, but if I did, it should be

21 corrected. The building on the left is building A and the building on the

22 right is building B.

23 MR. SMITH:

24 Q. I'd like you to look at a photograph from P18. The number is

25 7472, and it's a picture of two buildings. Can you tell the Court whether

1 or not you're familiar with that view?

2 Mr. Lojo, if you look at the top photo, is that a view that's

3 familiar to you?

4 A. Yes. Yes. That is the view from my room, if I see this right.

5 This view is not directly from my room. This is perhaps from building B.

6 So this view is well familiar to me. This is the entrance or the exit for

7 guards and prisoners. That same exit or entrance is here. It's that

8 door.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo.

10 MR. SMITH: He indicates -- the witness indicates on the

11 photograph at the top of the page, 7472, the door underneath figure 1 as

12 the entrance.

13 JUDGE HUNT: And as the view from his room.

14 MR. SMITH: That's right.

15 JUDGE HUNT: The one below, he says, is probably from a room in

16 building B.

17 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. I will now ask you some questions about interviews and

19 interrogations that took place at the KP Dom.

20 Whilst you were in custody in the KP Dom, were you interviewed?

21 A. I was taken only for a short time to give a statement. I think it

22 was between the 24th and 25th of April, because I was brought on the

23 19th. I gave a statement at a very early stage. And it was supposed to

24 be signed as well. However, later, I was never taken for any interviews

25 or interrogations. Well, I mean, interviews, conversations, yes, but I

1 was never taken for an interrogation by a police officer, no.

2 Q. When you were interviewed, who were you interviewed by?

3 A. I was interviewed by Inspector Vladicic. I think his name is

4 Zoran, Zoran Vladicic.

5 Should I say what the contents of this interview was?

6 Q. If you can briefly state the contents.

7 A. This was a short statement confirming that I was brought to

8 prison, to the KP Dom. Inspector Vladicic asked me only whether I was a

9 member of the SDA, the Party of Democratic Action. He said, "Feel free to

10 say so. It's not important even if you are a member." And I said I was

11 not a member, as I was not. And that's how it all ended. I think that

12 the statement consisted of five to eight lines only. I signed it.

13 In the meantime, yet another one of the inspectors saw me, Petko

14 Gasevic. Since he worked in Maglic, in the laboratory, earlier on, I knew

15 him well. We worked together. He tried to ascertain my status over the

16 telephone. He was doing this in this other room. Judging by the

17 expression on his face, I came to the conclusion that I would not get out

18 of the KP Dom soon.

19 Q. During this interview, were you told why, why you were being

20 detained?

21 A. No. No. Nobody told me why I was detained.

22 Q. Were other Muslim detainees interviewed at the KP Dom?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You mentioned that your interview commenced on about the 24th or

25 25th of April. When were the other Muslim detainees --

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- when were they interviewed?

3 A. The other detainees were interviewed for a longer period of time.

4 I think until mid-July. They were being interviewed throughout that

5 period. Unfortunately, they were not interviewed as kindly as I was.

6 Q. You mentioned earlier that about 700 to 750 Muslim detainees were

7 present in the KP Dom around July 1992. Did you observe or did you

8 know --

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection. He said from 650 to 700.

10 JUDGE HUNT: That is my memory also, but I haven't got the

11 transcript open. Have you got a different page reference?

12 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I won't have the final version of the

13 transcript. It's not an important point. It's just that on my version of

14 the transcript it had been corrected to 700 to 750. Now, maybe this is

15 not the final version, but it's not the main point of the question.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Maybe you might like to put it at "about 700."

17 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. You mentioned the amount of Muslim detainees at the KP Dom in July

19 was about 700, 650 to 700. Of those detainees, do you know approximately

20 what percentage of them were interviewed, just from speaking to other

21 prisoners and from your own observations at the time?

22 A. I think that it is very hard to tell what the percentage was of

23 those who had been interviewed. If I were to try to give an estimate in

24 this regard, then I think that since the process of interviews went on all

25 the way up to mid-July, I think about 100 persons were interviewed. I

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1 could not really say anything more precise than that.

2 Q. Do you know who was doing the interviews at the KP Dom? You've

3 mentioned two men that interviewed -- or one man that interviewed you. Do

4 you know the names of the interviewers, the main ones?

5 A. I think that all inspectors carried out interviews. One of their

6 names was already mentioned, Zoran Vladicic. Then there was this Gasevic,

7 Petko Gasevic. There was Koprivica. And there was another one, one

8 more.

9 Q. How would detainees be called for interviews? What was the

10 general procedure?

11 A. Well, the procedure was the following: The guard who was supposed

12 to take a person out for an interview would come to the room with a small

13 piece of paper with the names of the persons that were being called for an

14 interview. At that time, we were all locked in. He would unlock the

15 room, walk into the room, read out the names, take them out of the room,

16 and take them for an interview.

17 Q. On what regularity would the interviews occur? Would they occur

18 on a daily basis, a weekly basis? Can you provide some -- do you know how

19 regular these interviews were?

20 A. Those interviews, the ones that went on until mid-July, took place

21 practically every day. Perhaps only on Saturdays and Sundays there were

22 less because those were not working days, but interviews did take place

23 every day.

24 Q. Who was selected for interviews? Was there a certain type of

25 detainee selected?

1 A. At that time of course, at least I could not come to see any of

2 the criteria according to which people were chosen; however, later, when

3 things can be analysed and when a definite mosaic is being made, then we

4 can see that the members of the Party for Democratic Action were in the

5 forefront. Then also policemen who were ethnic Muslims were also the

6 first on the line, so to speak.

7 Of course, there were many Muslim detainees, but not all were

8 Muslims. There was a symbolic number of Croats; perhaps three or four of

9 them.

10 Q. You said that some people, some detainees, weren't treated as well

11 as you were when you were interviewed. Do you know of any people that

12 were mistreated during their interviews?

13 A. Yes, I know. Unfortunately, I know of quite a few people who were

14 mistreated, and I must say that my experience of all these interviews was

15 quite dramatic. I was afraid that I would be called out too.

16 I remember, for instance, Zulfo was in my room; Veiz is his last

17 name. Then there was a Muharem Causevic.

18 Q. If you could just stop there, Mr. Lojo. Can you explain to the

19 Court what you know about Zulfo Veiz's treatment during an interview?

20 A. Zulfo Veiz. What I know is that in the late afternoon a guard

21 came to fetch him. He expected to be called out, because we had walked up

22 and down the room together and he really was worried. And it turned out

23 that his fears were justified, because in the evening he was called in for

24 interrogation - we could hear it from the room - and he was tortured

25 terribly; he was beaten so that he fainted. They poured water over him,

1 and we could hear calls, "Zulfo, answer. Zulfo, say something." And I

2 think that he was liquidated that evening with another three persons who

3 went for interviews that same evening. I believe they were liquidated

4 because that night I could also hear shots, among other things.

5 Q. Zulfo Veiz was in your room, Room 15; is that correct?

6 A. Fifteen, yes.

7 Q. Did you hear the beating of Zulfo?

8 A. Yes, him and others. One could hear it very well because the

9 administrative building is not far from us. Besides, they beat people so

10 forcefully that they also screamed forcefully.

11 Q. If you look at the map which is to your left, can you point to

12 which building you heard the beating coming from on that night?

13 A. I think -- I think it was from Room 1 -- no, not Room 1, building

14 1, and perhaps some from building 2; buildings 1 and 2. That is how the

15 sounds reached us, us who were in Room 15. Of course, needless to say, at

16 the exact source of that sound I couldn't really point.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. SMITH: The witness indicates building 1 and 2 on Exhibit

19 P88.

20 Q. You mentioned that on that same evening when Zulfo Veiz was

21 beaten, that three others were also taken and beaten as well. Do you know

22 those other three?

23 A. Some I did know very well; for instance, Kuloglija, him I knew

24 very well because he was a teacher at the elementary, at grade school.

25 And then of course I knew Causevic very well because he was in my room

1 too. But Causevic was not taken out that night, he was summoned for

2 questioning before that.

3 I don't have the list with me of some persons, and such a list

4 would be welcomed by me to jog my memory, to remember some men.

5 Q. You mentioned that on the night that Zulfo Veiz was taken out and

6 you heard the beatings, that you also heard shots; is that correct?

7 A. Yes. And I think that that evening four persons -- among other

8 people, four persons were taken away, tortured, battered, and finally - I

9 guess, of course; I didn't see - killed because I could hear four shots.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, the witness is asking for a list. Exhibit

11 P55 is Schedule C with the list, if that is --

12 MR. SMITH: We can go to the list, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Lojo, if you could look at the names on that list and tell the

14 Court if there are any individuals on that list that you knew that were

15 present at KP Dom, and also whether you knew what had happened to them at

16 KP Dom, if anything. If you could start from the top and work your way

17 down.

18 THE COURT REPORTER: Could the list please be put on the ELMO,

19 Your Honour.

20 A. Under 10, Nail Hodzic; 11, Mate Ivancic; 13, Halim Konjo; 15,

21 Mustafa Kuloglija; 17, Krunoslav Marinovic; 19, Nurko Nisic; 25, Kemal

22 Tulek; 26, Enes Uzunovic; 28, 29, brothers Veiz, Veiz brothers, Munib and

23 Zulfo. Other names, yes, I've heard them. I know the names but I didn't

24 know those people so well. For instance, Cankusic, I know there were two

25 sons and a father who were called Cankusic.

1 MR. SMITH:

2 Q. I'd like you to refer to the --

3 A. I think --

4 Q. Mr. Lojo, I'd like you only to refer to the individuals on that

5 list that you knew were at KP Dom. Now, you've mentioned a number of

6 names, and you've also mentioned names number 3 and 4. Were they at KP

7 Dom; do you know?

8 A. I am positive that there were two sons, but whether these are

9 their names, Abdurahman and Refik, I'm not sure; and their father. And I

10 know that they were all in Room 11, in the penitentiary. I know that they

11 were beaten very badly and that it was very hard on the father, because

12 the father could hear his sons screaming as they beat them.

13 Q. Excuse me. Abdurahman Cankusic, can you give us a few details

14 about him? Who was he? How old was he? What did he do?

15 A. No, I can't. I only know their father because he worked at

16 Maglic. He was in the semi-manufactures factory.

17 Q. And Cankusic, do you have any particulars -- personal particulars

18 that you know of?

19 A. No, no, no, I don't.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, I should be the last one to be critical of

21 anybody's pronunciation of Yugoslav names, but it would help everybody,

22 particularly the typists, I think, if you gave the number before you

23 referred to the name.

24 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. You're correct. I should do

25 in short course.

1 Q. You mentioned that the individuals on the list, numbers 3 and 4,

2 Cankusic, that they were in Room 11 and that they were beaten. How did

3 you know that?

4 A. I heard it from fellow inmates because they saw them being taken

5 downstairs for interrogation and listened to their torture.

6 Q. After those interrogations, are you aware from other prisoners

7 whether or not those people have ever been seen alive again?

8 A. Unfortunately, all that I learnt was that these people were among

9 the wanted persons. And I think that this list could be much longer than

10 this, because in the rooms we tried to keep a record, and we listed some

11 37 persons who had been taken for interrogation, beaten, and had never

12 come back.

13 Q. If we look at individual number 10, Nail Hodzic, what particulars

14 do you know about that person, what personal particulars, briefly?

15 A. I know quite a great deal about that person. He was a driver, a

16 bus driver, by profession. For awhile he worked at Maglic. I do not know

17 where he then went to work. In the KP Dom, I also know that he had been

18 assigned to drive a vehicle; that he went out at times evidently to

19 perform some jobs.

20 Q. Do you know what happened to Nail Hodzic?

21 A. I learnt -- I do not know what happened to him. What I do know is

22 that he is among the persons being traced.

23 Q. Did you hear anything through other prisoners about what may have

24 happened to Nail Hodzic?

25 A. No, no, I did not. I did not.

1 Q. If you look at the individual under number 11, Mate Ivancic.

2 A. Mate Ivancic, 19 -- no, which number did you say?

3 Q. Number 11.

4 A. Oh, yes, yes, 11.

5 Q. Was he in your room?

6 A. He was. Yes, I know him well and I remember him well, because he

7 once extended first aid to me on one occasion. I think that Mate was a

8 nurse; I think that that was his training. I remember how once when I

9 collapsed in the kitchen, when I fainted, he was the one who helped me

10 come to and recover. As a matter of fact, he extended first aid to me.

11 Q. Do you know of anything happening to --

12 A. Sorry?

13 Q. Do you know of anything happening to Mate Ivancic at KP Dom?

14 A. I do not know if anything happened to him in KP Dom, but as far as

15 I can remember, he was taken for exchange.

16 Q. Have you heard of Mate Ivancic being alive today?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Number 13, Halim Konjo, was he at KP Dom?

19 A. Konjo. Yes, he was in the penitentiary. I really did not know

20 him much. All I know is that he ran his own coffee shop in the old part

21 of the town. I know he was also taken out and beaten considerably.

22 Otherwise, in this war, people who had money and private capital, they

23 really experienced major tragedies.

24 Q. After he was beaten, do you know whether he was returned back

25 inside the KP Dom or not?

1 A. I do not think that he was returned, and I believe that he was on

2 that -- those -- on the list of those 37 persons that, as I've told you,

3 we've kept record of at that time who had been taken out and not brought

4 back.

5 Q. Do you know of Mr. Konjo being alive today?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. If you would like at number 15, Mustafa Kuloglija, was he at

8 KP Dom?

9 A. Yes. Yes, I know him well. I know that he was taken out several

10 times and beaten, thoroughly beaten. And I think he was one of those four

11 whom I mentioned that they had been taken away, beaten, and that at the

12 end of that I had heard some shots and I believe they were intended for

13 them.

14 Q. Do you know of Mr. Kuloglija being alive today?

15 A. I do not think he is. I have not heard from anyone that he was

16 alive. I know his wife well, but I did not see her.

17 Q. The individual number 17, Krunoslav Marinovic, was he at KP Dom?

18 A. Yes, he was.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... personal particulars,

20 briefly?

21 A. All I can say is that I know that he had a TV repair shop at the

22 old town market.

23 Q. Do you know what happened to him at KP Dom, if anything?

24 A. I don't know what happened to him. All I know is that he was

25 taken away rather early in the day.

1 Q. When you say "taken away early in the day," where was he taken

2 to?

3 A. Well, they took him for questioning or for exchange or something.

4 I don't know, but he was taken away from the KP Dom.

5 Q. Did you see that or did you hear that from other prisoners?

6 A. I did not see him being taken away, but it can be confirmed by --

7 I don't know. The man simply did not turn up again. We, the others, saw

8 each other, but we did not see him again.

9 Q. And do you know of Mr. Marinovic being alive today?

10 A. I don't. From what I heard from my colleagues was that he was

11 also missing.

12 Q. And the individual 19, Nurko Nisic, was he at the KP Dom?

13 A. Nineteen, you mean. I have him under 19, not under 18. It may

14 have been a slip, the interpreter's slip.

15 Q. Number 19, Nurko Nisic.

16 A. Yes, I know Nurko Nisic quite well. I know that for a while he

17 worked for the police, the Secretariat of the Interior, and that then he

18 worked for the Assembly. I know that he was taken out several times and

19 beaten. Once at the lunchtime, I know that somebody came and called out

20 his name and took him into the administrative building, and he returned

21 some 10 or 15 minutes later and here he had a huge blue bruise because

22 somebody had slapped him. And I also know that he is one of those who are

23 missing.

24 Q. And where was the blue bruise? What part of his body?

25 A. I think on his left cheek. I think that's where it was. The left

1 cheek.

2 Q. You said that he was beaten a couple of times. After --

3 A. Yes, several times.

4 Q. After being beaten on the last time, did you see him again at

5 KP Dom?

6 A. No. Never.

7 Q. Do you know of Mr. Nisic being alive today?

8 A. As far as I know, he's not alive.

9 Q. Individual 25, Kemal Tulek, was he at the KP Dom?

10 A. Yes, and beaten very badly, and spent in solitary confinement at

11 least three months. When he came out, he had a beard down to his waist.

12 What happened to him later. Well, later I heard that he was missing, that

13 he's among those whom people are trying to trace. And we related it to

14 the fact that his brother was a professional pilot and must have refused

15 to participate in the war and that that could be one of the reasons for

16 which he enjoyed special treatment.

17 Q. And do you know when he was beaten?

18 A. That was in the early days. And he spent a long time in solitary

19 confinement, I'm telling you, some three months. What happened to him

20 later, that is something that I don't know.

21 Q. Have you ever had of Mr. Tulek being alive today?

22 A. No. No one told me anything.

23 Q. Individual number 26, Enes Uzunovic, was he at the KP Dom?

24 A. If it is a person who succumbed because his ulcer burst, then,

25 yes, I know that he was there, and I believe that that was him. His ulcer

1 was perforated one day, and it took a long time to get one of the guards

2 to intercede and transfer him to the hospital. We could see how it was

3 very slow and very sloppy. And then we learned that he died on his way to

4 the hospital or in the hospital, if that is the person.

5 Q. And individual number 28, Munib Veiz, was he at the KP Dom?

6 A. Yes. They are two brothers, Munib Veiz and Zulfo. Zulfo was in

7 my room throughout and Munib was in 11. I know that from the first day of

8 their detention, both were beaten tremendously. And I -- about Munib, I'm

9 also sure that the last time that he went for questioning, that that same

10 night he was also -- well, either died of injuries or was shot from a

11 pistol or some firearm.

12 Q. And when was the last time that he went for questioning? Do you

13 know what month and year?

14 A. Zulfo Veiz, do you mean?

15 Q. Munib Veiz.

16 A. Munib. I cannot tell you exactly about Munib because he was in a

17 different room, in number 11. And Zulfo Veiz, I'm almost 100 per cent

18 sure it was on the 13th of July.

19 Q. How did you learn about Munib Veiz being beaten?

20 A. Well, because people saw him being taken away for questioning.

21 Q. And after being taken away to be questioned and beaten, did he

22 return to the KP Dom?

23 A. No, he did not. After the last time he was questioned, but he was

24 questioned on various occasions. He's one of those 37 persons or so who

25 did not come back to the room.

1 Q. Are you aware of Munib Veiz being alive today?

2 A. I don't think so.

3 Q. And the individual 29, Zulfo Veiz, are you aware of him being

4 alive today?

5 A. I do not think he is alive, as far as I know.

6 Q. From your room, Room 15, on about how many occasions did you hear

7 the sounds of beating from the administration building?

8 A. I suppose the simplest way to put it is daily or every evening,

9 because questioning and beatings would sometimes take all day, from the

10 morning until 12.00 at night. Sometimes perhaps less. Sometimes only

11 until 10.00 in the evening, but sometimes they would last until 12.00 at

12 night.

13 Q. You say "daily." Over what period of time are you referring to

14 these daily beatings, a month, two months, or can you state what period of

15 time that was the most intense period?

16 A. Yes. That was the most intense period, May, June, until the

17 middle of July.

18 Q. What sounds could you hear from the building, the administration

19 building, whilst these interrogations were being conducted?

20 A. Those were howls, screams. Of course -- excuse me -- I could, of

21 course, hear the voices of inspectors from time to time, or whoever,

22 trying to obtain some information, and he was trying to get it by

23 beating.

24 MR. SMITH: I believe it's 11.00 on that clock, 10.57 on the

25 transcript, but probably a time to break.

1 JUDGE HUNT: I think you'll find that probably every clock in this

2 building is different. We get quite used to it after awhile.

3 All right. We will adjourn now until 11.30.

4 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith.

7 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Mr. Lojo, before the break you mentioned the daily beatings that

9 occurred in the administration building and the howls and screams that you

10 heard from that building in your room.

11 I'd like you now to provide a few more details about the day that

12 Zulfo Veiz was taken out of your room. Do you remember what time of the

13 day he was taken out, whether it was during the day or in the evening or

14 late at night?

15 A. It was in the evening, on the 13th of July, 1992.

16 Q. Were you in the room when he was taken out?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember who took him out?

19 A. No, I do not recall. The duty guard came and took him away, one

20 of the guards who was on duty.

21 Q. Was he the only person taken out from your room?

22 A. Well, I think he was, I think he was the only one from our room.

23 Q. Did you take note --

24 A. I'm sorry. Perhaps the only one in the evening. But during the

25 course of the day, I'm not sure. Perhaps Muharem Causevic was also taken

1 out during the course of the day, but I'm not sure of that.

2 Q. Did you observe what happened to Zulfo Veiz after he was taken out

3 of the room? Did you look out of your window, or did you not observe any

4 further?

5 A. I looked through the window only for a short period of time, I

6 think, but I did not have the courage to look down or to listen. Usually

7 when people were beaten up, I would put pillows on my ears, on my head,

8 because this had a terrible effect on me. I was terribly frightened. I

9 just couldn't listen to all these screams and cries.

10 Q. After he was taken out, did you hear anything from the

11 administration building?

12 A. I heard him being beaten up. Some of the interrogators were

13 saying, "Zulfo," calling out his name, that is, "Zulfo, Zulfo, come to."

14 I think that they were asking him where some weapons were. As far as I

15 could understand from the context, they were looking for weapons. And

16 those were the words that were heard most during these interrogations:

17 "Where are the weapons?"

18 Q. How long did this beating go on for?

19 A. His beating probably went on for at least two hours. I cannot say

20 for sure, but it must have been at least two hours.

21 Q. If I can recall correctly, you said earlier today that shots were

22 also heard on this day.

23 A. Yes, yes, I'm sure of that.

24 Q. Those shots, were they heard before or after Zulfo Veiz was

25 beaten?

1 A. I think after the shots, I mean after 2300 hours.

2 Q. Where did those shots come from? From within the KP Dom or

3 outside?

4 A. Inside, in the building, because the sound was muffled, that is to

5 say, from the administrative building.

6 Q. After the shots were heard, did you hear or observe anything

7 else?

8 A. Often one could hear engines, motor vehicles being driven away,

9 something thrown onto a vehicle; however, you could not see that because

10 it was on the other side of the building.

11 Q. You say "often." But did you hear a vehicle on this particular

12 night, or was it on some other nights?

13 A. Yes, yes, yes, that night as well, yes. On several occasions, my

14 colleagues who were more courageous and who spent more time standing by

15 the window, they said that they saw a truck, a vehicle, transporting

16 prisoners towards the bridge, towards the river. And they even heard them

17 being thrown into the river; however, I did not have the courage to listen

18 to all of that.

19 Q. When did you learn this information about -- this particular day

20 when Zulfo Veiz was taken and beaten, when did you learn this extra

21 information from other prisoners? That night or the following day or at a

22 later time?

23 A. Most probably on the next day, immediately on the next day,

24 because it was late, around 2300 hours, 2400 hours -- 2300 hours most

25 probably. And some perhaps discussed it immediately. However, very soon

1 people would hear about it. If not that same evening, I would hear about

2 it immediately on the next day.

3 Q. You mentioned that you heard shots on this particular day at the

4 KP Dom coming from the administration building. Were there any other days

5 that you heard shots coming from the administration building or inside the

6 KP Dom or immediately outside of it?

7 A. Concerning the situation regarding the detainees, those who were

8 being interrogated and beaten up, I cannot say that I heard shots

9 earlier. However, that night I heard four shots for sure during these

10 late hours, around 2300 hours, between 2300 and 2400 hours; four shots

11 within a short span of time. I then came to the conclusion that four

12 persons were killed, were shot. I did not see this with my very own eyes,

13 but that is the conclusion I came to.

14 As regards shots on other days, the detainees who were with me in

15 the same room said that those -- I mean, those who would watch what was

16 going on more than I did, they said that they would hear shots from

17 outside the KP Dom at a distance from where the current railway bridge is

18 on the Drina.

19 Q. You mentioned earlier in your evidence that the most intensive

20 period for interrogations and interviews was May, June, and July in 1992.

21 A. The beginning, yes.

22 Q. During that period of time, did you discuss with other prisoners

23 about how many people were taken to be interviewed, interrogated, beaten,

24 and never seen again?

25 A. I already mentioned earlier that of course we were always in

1 contact. And I said that in my room we had recorded 37 persons who had

2 been taken away, mistreated, beaten up, and probably liquidated, because

3 they never returned to the room.

4 Q. When you say 37 from your -- in your room, are you referring to

5 37 people that were interrogated, beaten, and taken away from the whole of

6 the KP Dom, from all of the rooms, or are you just referring to 37 people

7 being interrogated, beaten, and never seen again from people that came

8 from your room? Does it relate to your room or the whole of the KP Dom

9 that figure?

10 A. That room, of course, does not relate to our room only. It

11 relates to all rooms, approximately, where detainees were.

12 Q. And where would you discuss with other prisoners to arrive at and

13 find out about how many people were believed to be taken out in that way?

14 Where would you communicate this information?

15 A. The rooms. It is in our room that we sort of kept this record.

16 One of the persons who kept pretty good records is a person who will be

17 testifying before this Court as well.

18 Q. Does that person's number appear on the sheet in front of you? If

19 it doesn't, don't mention his name.

20 A. Yes. Yes, number 86.

21 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to talk about some specific individuals

22 that were taken for interviews and returned, returned to the KP Dom,

23 returned to the rooms after the interview.

24 I would like to ask you about a few individuals that appear in

25 your statements, and the first person I would like to ask is Halim

1 Dedovic. Do you know him? Was he at KP Dom, and what do you know

2 happened to him, if anything?

3 A. Yes. Halim Dedovic was in the same room with me for quite some

4 time. It is not Room 15. At that time, I was together with him in Room

5 18.

6 Halim Dedovic was a barber. He was very busy giving people shaves

7 and haircuts, not only amongst us but also among the officials. Later on,

8 among the Serb prisoners as well.

9 As far as his fate is concerned, all I know is that this person

10 has not been heard from. And I've always wondered why this man, who did

11 so many services to both sides, why was he killed too? According to some

12 criteria or the other. Of course, all of it is strange, but I know that

13 he gave the higher officials and the guards haircuts, as well as prisoners

14 of Serb ethnicity. He was taken out for some kind of exchange, and his

15 fate is unknown or, rather, he is still missing.

16 Q. Do you know how he was treated at the KP Dom?

17 A. He personally told me that when he was brought to the KP Dom, he

18 recognised a guard called Burilo. As people were brought in -- this man

19 is very strong, very corpulent. I think that he weighs about 120 to 130

20 kilogrammes. As soon as he would hit someone with his baton, they would

21 pass out. That's what Dedovic said to me. "He hit me and I did not

22 fall." Then he was surprised and he said, "Wow, look at him. He didn't

23 even fall," and then he hit him again until he fell. That's what he told

24 me, and that has to do with the way in which he was brought into custody.

25 Q. When was he brought into custody? Do you know or did he tell you

1 that?

2 A. That's what he told me. I think that he was probably among the

3 first to be brought into custody. He was brought in from the garden, from

4 his own garden. He wanted to do something in the garden, and the Chetniks

5 came and one of them said, "I know that you are not to be blamed for

6 anything, but you're a Muslim and we have to take you in," and that's how

7 they took him in.

8 I know him well because I played chess with him very often.

9 Q. I would like you to refer to Avdo Mehmedspahic. Do you know him?

10 Was he at KP Dom, and do you know anything that happened to him there?

11 A. Yes. Avdo Mehmedspahic was also in the KP Dom. I'm not sure

12 exactly which room he was in. I know that he was beaten up terribly. I

13 know that he was so beaten up that he could not stand on his feet.

14 On one occasion, I saw him when I was going out for an interview

15 with one of the inspectors. He could not walk up stairs. I had to hold

16 him and help him. He was shaking something terrible. I had never seen a

17 person shake or tremble that way in all my life. Perhaps he was very

18 frightened of being beaten up that badly again.

19 Q. When did you see --

20 A. He is also among the persons who are still missing.

21 Q. When did you see him in that beaten-up state?

22 A. That must have been in the first half of July.

23 Q. And what type of -- were there any obvious injuries on him, to

24 you?

25 A. I could not see. He was dressed, of course, and he also had some

1 kind of footwear on his feet, some light footwear, but could I see that he

2 could not stand on his feet because of all the pain.

3 Q. Was he from your room?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did he say to you who caused him to be beaten up, who beat him

6 up?

7 A. No. I was not in a position to ask him. I encountered him only

8 at the staircase at the entrance in the administrative building.

9 Q. Do you know an Asim Mezbur. Was he at the KP Dom, and do you know

10 what happened to him?

11 A. Mezbur. Yes. He was in my room, number 15.

12 Q. Do you know what happened to him, if anything, at the KP Dom, in

13 terms of treatment? Was he well treated?

14 A. I think that he was not treated well. I think that he was beaten

15 up badly before he was brought to the KP Dom; however, during his stay in

16 my room, he was not taken out for beatings. He only went off on an

17 exchange. That exchange was, I think, sometime in the beginning of

18 September, or perhaps even earlier. Perhaps earlier. I can't say for

19 sure now.

20 Q. And Suko Misic, was he at KP Dom? And do you know if anything

21 happened to him there in terms of bad treatment?

22 A. If I understood the name and surname correctly, that is number 19

23 on the list, 55, Nisic, Nurko --

24 Q. If I can stop you there, Mr. Lojo.

25 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, it must be my pronunciation again. The

1 person I'm referring to is Suko Misic; S-u-k-o, surname Misic, M-i-s-i-c.

2 And he doesn't appear on any lists.

3 JUDGE HUNT: You can understand the problem.

4 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

5 Q. Do you know a Suko Misic from the KP Dom?

6 A. I don't remember. I think the name should be Zuko with a "Z". I

7 will like to see the name and surname written out.

8 On the list, I have a name that is Nisic, Nurko, and you say that

9 that is not it. I don't know of any Zuko Nisic. I haven't got any

10 information about such a person, and I think that I did not mention such a

11 person in my statement either.

12 Q. The last individual I'd like you to think about is Nurija Rahman.

13 Was he at the KP Dom? And do you know of anything that happened to him?

14 A. Yes, he was in my room; I think that at that time we were in Room

15 14. One day, together with some other detainees, he went out to pick some

16 plants that we used to prepare tea, some herbs; and sometimes we would

17 also put this into our food and mix it together. On that occasion,

18 somebody from the administrative building noticed him, called the guard,

19 and the guard took him to a solitary cell.

20 And in front of the solitary confinement cell, he hit him on the

21 head so badly - he was a very thin person; I think that he weighed less

22 than 50 kilos - that he passed out. I know that we had to try to bring

23 him to in the room. He also got a catheter; he couldn't go to the

24 toilet. Actually, he was paralysed after that, his left arm or right

25 leg. I can't remember now. We had to carry him. And we managed to help

1 him recuperate. Later he could stand on his own two feet, and he managed

2 to heal.

3 He was exchanged together with us on the 6th of October, 1994,

4 when this main group was exchanged.

5 Q. When did this beating occur?

6 A. It's hard to say. I think it was 1993, I think it was sometime in

7 mid-1993. I know that it was the guard named Pljevaljcic who hit him. As

8 for the others who were with him, he beat them up; they were beaten up by

9 a guard named Obrenovic.

10 Q. Who told you that it was this guard that beat him up?

11 A. We saw them being taken through the building. We saw these guards

12 taking them through the building. Rahman himself told us who had hit

13 him.

14 Q. From your room, Room 15, did you see Muslim detainees being

15 brought into the KP Dom for the first time, on their arrival?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are there any instances of bad treatment of these detainees as

18 they arrived?

19 A. Very often they were thrown into the compound as they were being

20 beaten, through the door that I showed you on the photograph.

21 Q. About how many times did you see this occur?

22 A. I cannot say exactly, but it was several times. I don't know

23 whether it was five or ten times, but I saw it at any rate.

24 Q. Who was doing the beating? Was it these paramilitary units that

25 you were referring to earlier, or was it some other people?

1 A. No. These were the guards, the regular guards, who had already

2 arrived.

3 Q. And when did you see these beatings take place? What month?

4 A. The first three months, of which I assert that they were the most

5 critical, the most dangerous, and the most cruel; that is to say, the

6 months of May, June, and the first half of July. Perhaps also part of

7 April, because I was brought in on the 19th of April. So perhaps a short

8 period in April too.

9 Q. Do you know the names of any of the guards that were doing the

10 beatings?

11 A. I personally think that everybody did the beatings at a given

12 point in time. I saw some of them beating people as they were being

13 brought in. However, during the so-called interviews, I think that all

14 the guards were beating the prisoners. It would often happen that a

15 prisoner would start moaning and screaming from the moment he would pass

16 through the door because they would start beating him immediately.

17 Q. I'm sorry. I'm just referring to the time that you saw guards

18 bring Muslim detainees into the KP Dom yard. When you were looking from

19 your window, did you know the names of any of those guards that were doing

20 those particular beatings on their arrival?

21 A. I cannot tell you exactly because people were being brought in all

22 the time. I think that all of them had their turn; I think that all of

23 them beat the people who were coming in.

24 Q. I'd like to ask you a few questions in relation to punishment at

25 the KP Dom. Were detainees punished for any reason at the KP Dom?

1 A. Yes, they were punished very often even for some trifles, and

2 there was even punishment for attempts to escape.

3 Q. In relation to the attempts to escape, do you remember the name of

4 one person who attempted to escape and people were punished for it?

5 A. Yes. His name is Ekrem Zekovic.

6 Q. When did he attempt to escape?

7 A. I think it was -- it was, I think, sometime around mid-summer.

8 I'm not sure.

9 Q. Is that in 1992 or 1993?

10 A. I think it was 1993. The first half, I think. He used to work

11 for -- in a mechanic's shop. That is the work group that worked in the

12 metal shop. And he seized a moment, got away and escaped somehow. I

13 don't know how. He reached a locality near Foca, some 4 or 5 kilometres

14 away, and was allegedly captured there and then brought back and placed in

15 solitary confinement.

16 We were all taken out into the yard to be told about how to escape

17 was prohibited. We were threatened, and we were told that he would not be

18 beaten. We do not know.

19 I think he will perhaps turn up as a witness in court, I think,

20 perhaps, but we were, all together, punished by getting less than

21 one-third of our rations, which were very meager anyhow. I know that at

22 that time I was so famished and my health was in such a poor state then

23 that I thought that if it goes on for another two or three days, I might

24 be in serious trouble, health trouble.

25 Q. So how long was this rationing in place as punishment for the

1 attempted escape?

2 A. I think it lasted for some 10 days or so.

3 Q. You mentioned earlier in your evidence that people were exchanged

4 or attempted to be exchanged from the KP Dom. When did those exchanges

5 start to take place in a significant way?

6 A. First there was this attempt of failed exchange. And I mention it

7 in my statement in part. That was sometime in early July, when we were

8 taken to Cajnice for exchange. But we learned that it had failed because

9 the Muslim side would not accept the exchange. And our guess was that the

10 Muslim side would not exchange military prisoners for civilians, because

11 amongst us there were some 30 or 40 persons from a smaller camp at the

12 youth centre, that is, the Partizan Physical Culture Club.

13 Q. When did the largest number of exchanges take place? You stated

14 in your evidence that there was about 650 to 700 people in the KP Dom in

15 July, and then you further stated that in December, it may have been down

16 to about 400, and then you further stated that perhaps in July 1993 it may

17 have been down to about 100 detainees at the KP Dom. When did the largest

18 amount of people leave the KP Dom under an exchange or a supposed

19 exchange?

20 A. The most intensive exchange was in August, in the latter half of

21 August, then in July, and then right up until December 1993. No, 1992.

22 That is, until the new year, smaller and larger groups were taken for

23 exchange. But I think the largest exchanges, in terms of numbers, took

24 place in the latter half -- in the latter half of August and in

25 September.

1 Q. From those exchanges, those that you've just mentioned, were you

2 aware that any of these people, those detainees that were taken for

3 exchange, were you aware of whether or not they had been seen again,

4 whether they had, in fact, been exchanged or whether they had disappeared?

5 A. Yes, of course I knew many prisoners who were taken for exchange.

6 In the -- at first, I had no information as to whether their exchange had

7 been successful or not. We received the first information about that

8 exchange after the Red Cross arrived, after the visits of Red Cross

9 delegations.

10 Q. Of the people that you knew that were exchanged, how many of them

11 do you know -- how many of them have never been seen again, to your

12 knowledge, of the people that you know?

13 Rather than give names, if you could give an approximate figure to

14 the Court.

15 A. As regards the missing persons in relation to the largest number

16 of prisoners in the prison, in my view, more than half of the people are

17 missing, that is, close to 400 people.

18 Q. Of the people that you knew personally, how many do you know to be

19 missing or do you believe to be missing?

20 A. Very many. The simplest way for me would be to look at the list

21 of prisoners and then tell you which ones I'm sure are missing.

22 Q. Can you give an approximate number of the people that you knew?

23 A. I knew very many people. Say, about 100 people. I mean, people I

24 really knew well and about who I'm sure are missing.

25 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about the general

1 conditions at the KP Dom. In terms of heating -- you said you were in

2 Room 15 for about a year after you arrived. Was that room heated?

3 A. No, as a principle. I can say that throughout our imprisonment,

4 the central heating, which did exist but it did not work -- and during the

5 last six, maybe eight months, we were given some stoves which we were told

6 had been sent by the Red Cross, and those were then installed in small

7 rooms and there was some heating and that is where we used to gather in

8 order to get warm. But until then, until those stoves arrived, there was

9 no heating in the KP Dom at all.

10 Q. And did the cold affect you at all or other detainees?

11 A. Well, of course it did, because we were not fed particularly good

12 food. So of course -- I mean, the intake of calories was low, and people,

13 of course, succumbed much easier because they were not fed properly.

14 Especially you could see swollen wrists or swollen ankles, swollen hands

15 and everything. You could see all the joints swell. And so those were

16 very frequent at that time.

17 Q. Was the cold uncomfortable or was it -- or was it comfortable?

18 A. I have to say that we tried to manage, anyway, which was

19 prohibited in order to combat this cold. We often used some improvised

20 heaters, which the prisoners call divers, to heat water. And then -- that

21 is, we fill a plastic bottle with water and then we use it as a heater.

22 I also must say that we had at our disposal an adequate number of

23 blankets to cover, but then it meant that we would have to spend in bed

24 all -- to just stay in bed. Well, that was not adequate, but it did help

25 quite a lot, considering the situation.

1 Q. How often were you able to wash?

2 A. In the beginning, we could not take any bath at all because for

3 security reasons it wasn't even advisable to move around the compound very

4 much. But later on -- and I think it was later on that the lavatories

5 were put in in order so that we could have a bath every 15 days or so.

6 Q. How much did you weigh when you first arrived at the KP Dom?

7 A. I was about 95 kilogrammes.

8 Q. And three to four months later, after being at the KP Dom, how

9 much did you weigh?

10 A. After three or four months, I lost weight. I lost more than

11 40 kilogrammes. I think I was 48 kilogrammes at some point, which means

12 that I lost between 34 and 40 kilogrammes.

13 Q. You lost a lot of weight over that period. Were other detainees

14 losing that same amount of weight or were you exceptional?

15 A. Everybody lost weight drastically. And I should say that it was

16 tactical exhaustion, emaciation of prisoners so that after they would be

17 exchanged they simply wouldn't be fit to go to fight.

18 Q. Did most people lose a similar amount of weight as you did or less

19 or more?

20 A. Well, about the same. About the same as I did. Naturally, there

21 were people who were -- who weighed less and, therefore, could not lose as

22 much as I did. But there were also some people who weighed more than I

23 did and could, therefore, lose more weight than I. For instance, Veiz,

24 whom we have already mentioned, I think he lost more than 50 kilogrammes,

25 because he used to weigh much more than I did.

1 Q. During this period, how many meals did you have a day? Say,

2 during 1992.

3 A. We had three meals a day.

4 Q. Can you briefly describe a typical meal or a typical day's meals -

5 breakfast, lunch, and dinner - and what you had at each of those times?

6 A. We usually had the same thing for breakfast, lunch, and dinner,

7 and it was mostly based on carbohydrates and water, that is, water and

8 very little carbohydrates. And I mean some pasta, some rice -- very

9 little rice, or perhaps even beans, but with insignificant quantities.

10 That meal, of course, is very deficient in terms of bodily needs,

11 of health, because it fell far short of the minimum needs of the human

12 body in order to reproduce strength.

13 I do not know if you want to ask me, but all you are asking me is

14 about those first three or four months, I guess. Later on, after that,

15 the food improved slightly.

16 Q. When did the food start to improve?

17 A. I think it was sometime towards the middle of 1993.

18 Q. Did you start to gain weight when the food improved?

19 A. Well, not right off. I think it was very difficult to gain some

20 weight; it was very, very slow. And I began to gain some weight only when

21 I moved to a so-called work room, that is, when I was sent to work in the

22 furniture factory.

23 Q. Apart from losing weight, what other effects did this lack of food

24 have on you and others, if any?

25 A. Well, it was accompanied by -- one lost strength, the resistance,

1 the body resistance dropped, and then diseases were evermore frequent

2 amongst the prisoners. I mentioned already those joints, that we

3 suffered; that was very conspicuous. But then bleedings became quite a

4 frequent occurrence. Many people fainted on their way to the canteen, and

5 then in the morning especially, when people would go to breakfast, they

6 would just faint out of the blue as they moved, as they progressed towards

7 this window in the canteen.

8 Q. Were there ways in which detainees could get extra food?

9 A. Only those who worked, were in the so-called working room, could

10 get some food, and they received a supplementary meal around 10.00 in the

11 morning.

12 Q. And that supplementary meal, was it the same as the other meals,

13 or was it something different?

14 A. Well, it was about the same, but it was -- quantitatively,

15 slightly bigger, but the quality was, yes, the same.

16 Q. Could people get extra food for giving blood?

17 A. No, not for quite some time. Perhaps only at the time when they

18 donated blood, they would get a symbolic meal or something. But no

19 additional food, no extra food, for donating blood, no.

20 Q. I'd like to ask you about a few individuals who had some medical

21 conditions at the KP Dom and whether or not they were treated, what

22 happened to them, and what access they had to medical help.

23 I'd like to ask you about Sefko Kubat. Did you know him, was he

24 at KP Dom, and did he suffer any medical problem?

25 A. Yes, I do know him. I believe he had serious problems with his

1 ulcer, because he had either a stomach or a duodenal ulcer. I know that

2 he underwent surgical intervention; I know that he recovered. But after

3 that he had a crisis and couldn't eat anything because he would simply

4 throw up everything that he would eat. And one day he died; he died in

5 his room.

6 Q. Did he get the ulcer whilst he was at KP Dom, or did he bring it

7 with him to KP Dom, as far as you were aware?

8 A. I really cannot say. As far as I know, ulcers are a long-lasting

9 disease. But in that particular case, no, I really don't know.

10 Q. Where was he operated on? In the KP Dom or outside of it?

11 A. The operation was performed in the hospital, in the presence of

12 guards. They guarded him during the operation.

13 Q. Was that in the KP Dom or at Foca Hospital?

14 A. The Foca Hospital, that is, the health centre, the medical centre,

15 in Foca.

16 Q. After the operation, was he brought back to the KP Dom?

17 A. Yes, he was brought back to the KP Dom, to his room.

18 Q. When was the operation?

19 A. I cannot really give you the date. If I try to think, it could

20 have been, for all I know, sometime in mid-1993.

21 Q. How long after he arrived back at KP Dom did he die?

22 A. I should say within about a month. I cannot be sure. But he was

23 there at least a month before he died.

24 Q. You mentioned another person whose first name was Enes in your

25 testimony earlier who also had an ulcer.

1 A. Well, he also suffered from the ulcer, and it perforated, it burst

2 one day, so he bled severely. Unfortunately, the intervention to help

3 him, that was done very sloppily and very slowly, and by the time he got

4 to the hospital, he simply bled to death. At least that is what we

5 learnt.

6 Q. And when was he taken to the hospital?

7 A. I cannot give you the exact date, but I think it was before

8 Kubat. Yes, I'm sure it was before Kubat.

9 Q. Was there a prisoner at KP Dom that had a mouth problem, a medical

10 problem with his mouth?

11 A. Yes. I think his name was Safet, and as far as I know, he came

12 from Cajnice. He was in Room 15 with my brother and others. And his

13 problem -- his complaint was that he could not intake food because that

14 whole apparatus was damaged, and he needed a major surgical intervention

15 to enable him to take in food. And because that was not done, I suppose

16 he simply starved to death.

17 Q. Where did he die? At KP Dom or outside of it?

18 A. In the KP Dom, in his room.

19 Q. Do you know how long he had this problem with his mouth before he

20 died?

21 A. Why, I think it must have been several months; perhaps two, three,

22 maybe four months that he suffered from that. And the very fact that it

23 lasted quite some time seems to say that some operation could have perhaps

24 saved his life.

25 Q. When did he die?

1 A. I cannot give you the exact time.

2 Q. Can you give the year, whether it was 1992 or 1993 or 1994?

3 A. No, not in 1992, I'm sure about that. 1993, could be. I think,

4 yes, 1993. I cannot really pinpoint it, but from what I remember, it

5 could have been the latter half of 1993.

6 Q. Do you know whether the guards were made aware of his problem, his

7 medical condition?

8 A. I'm sure they were.

9 Q. Do you know an individual called Ibrahim Sandal? Was he at the KP

10 Dom?

11 A. Yes. Ibrahim Sandal spent a long time in my room. I was moved

12 from that room to the work room -- no, not while he was there but later

13 on. He died practically before my eyes. He had some vascular problems,

14 and towards the end, he was poisoned somehow. He developed water. I

15 think he was some 150 kilogrammes when we tried to help him tremendously,

16 and he died one day. I'm quite sure that he would have survived had he

17 been administered adequate medical help on time. He was given some

18 medicines to improve his blood circulation at some point, but that

19 evidently was not enough.

20 Q. When did he die?

21 A. He also died in 1993, and I should say the second half, that is,

22 midway through the second half of the year, or perhaps sometime in

23 September/October. I cannot really be more precise.

24 Q. Were the guards aware of his problem, his medical condition,

25 before he died?

1 A. Well, I suppose they were, because he often went for examination

2 to the doctor, so they must have known. And there is no doubt that the

3 prison nurse, Gojko Jokanovic, was very much aware of his problem; and the

4 physicians who were in the prison must have also been quite aware of the

5 state of his health.

6 Q. I'd now like to ask you some questions about any labour that was

7 provided by the detainees in the KP Dom. Did you ever work whilst you

8 were in prison, in the KP Dom?

9 A. As for myself, nobody forced me to work, but I had to ask them to

10 allow me to work. Because when losing weight, I had dropped down to a

11 critical weight, I asked the deputy, Todovic, to let me do something just

12 in order to get that extra meal.

13 Q. Why did you ask Todovic for some work? Why did you go to him as

14 opposed to anyone else?

15 A. Because he was obviously the operations man, or, rather, he was in

16 charge of working with prisoners, and he assigned people to tasks.

17 Q. When did you start work at the KP Dom?

18 A. That was in the middle of 1993, and I think I worked there for

19 about a year, that is, until the very last day when we were finally sent

20 for exchange.

21 Q. And you worked in the furniture factory; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many others worked with you in the furniture factory?

24 A. Well, no. About eight, maybe ten people. If I had more time, I

25 could even write down their names. I don't know if you need that.

1 Q. That will not be necessary now. You said that you commenced your

2 work in August 1993. Had other Muslim detainees commenced work before you

3 in 1992 and/or the first half of 1993?

4 A. Well, prisoners -- depended on the group. Some of them began to

5 work very early, and they were assigned very early to various jobs. There

6 were all sorts of jobs. But those which required more training, they

7 started later. And it was first the furniture factory, which brought in

8 people who knew how to upholster things, then people were taken to chop

9 wood, mow grass. Later on, they also worked in the mine, the brown coal

10 mine.

11 The first ones to begin to work were those who were in the

12 mechanical shop. Some of the detainees had been trained as locksmiths or

13 car mechanics, so that very early in the day, they were summoned to repair

14 vehicles or do something in that mechanics workshop.

15 Q. So when did work first start in the KP Dom after you arrived there

16 on the 19th of April? When were you first aware that detainees started to

17 work?

18 A. Very quickly. I think that already in the first half of May some

19 people were first taken out to do certain things. Then I went also to

20 load wood or flour. Some went -- I mean, drivers were among the first who

21 were needed. So they went out to drive. And then also craftsmen,

22 especially those who were required in the mechanical workshop and then in

23 the furniture factory. Then also wood had to be cut. And that was a

24 long-term job. Enormous quantities of wood were needed. They used the

25 wood later for heating the rooms and also the kitchen used wood.

1 Q. Can you provide some figure of the amount of people that were

2 working, say, in July 1993 when you say that the Muslim detainees were at

3 their maximum in the KP Dom? Do you know how many people, approximately,

4 were working in July 1993, no matter what the task? Sorry, July 1992.

5 A. I do apologise. Right. That is a different story. At that time

6 in 1992, not many people worked. I think that it was only the locksmiths

7 who were working in the mechanical workshop. Also car mechanics from time

8 to time. Then the late Sefko. He went out to repair cars an endless

9 number of times, until he had these health complications. There were also

10 some people who worked on the maintenance of mechanisation in Miljevina,

11 about 12 kilometres away from Foca. Then Witness 78, who spent almost all

12 the time working in Miljevina on the maintenance of mechanisation.

13 Is this a full answer to your question? I think that you also

14 asked me about the number of persons involved.

15 Q. Yes. In July 1993 -- sorry -- July 1992, about how many people

16 were working at the KP Dom?

17 A. It is hard to say. I think a small number of people worked.

18 Perhaps up to 30 persons had regular jobs. And also, I forgot to mention

19 that there is a farm that is managed by the KP Dom. It's about 3 or 4

20 kilometres away from Foca. A certain number of persons worked there too.

21 I think that it could have been up to 50 persons who were working

22 during this initial period. I cannot say exactly.

23 Q. And by the end of the year of 1992, did the numbers increase or

24 stay the same or reduce? By Christmas in 1992.

25 A. There is no doubt that the number kept going up consistently and

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1 there were more and more persons who were engaged in various jobs. Also,

2 there were some seasonal jobs, temporary ones from time to time. Yet

3 there were jobs of a more permanent nature.

4 Q. When did the work in the furniture factory commence? Not your

5 particular work, but when did you hear of other detainees starting to work

6 in the furniture factory?

7 A. They started a lot before I did. I think that already in 1992,

8 September, something like that, that certain individuals started working

9 in the furniture factory.

10 First of all, it was the upholstery people who started working on

11 cutting the fabrics for upholstery and then later they were actually

12 upholstering the furniture.

13 Later on, the number went up further. Now I'm talking about 1993;

14 that is to say, people who were employed in the construction of furniture

15 and the upholstery of furniture and other jobs.

16 Q. And when did work start in the metal shop? Do you know? From

17 Muslim detainees.

18 A. The metal shop? Work started there very early. Perhaps already

19 at the end of May. The second half of May 1992. That's when work started

20 first.

21 Q. And when did work commence at the farm or at the farms owned by

22 KP Dom or managed by KP Dom?

23 A. That was also at an early stage. That was also at an early

24 stage. It was 1992 for sure, and the first half of 1992.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The witness might have meant 1993.

1 A. First a small number of persons and then the number would change,

2 things like that.

3 MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Can you just clarify? The work commenced at the farm in which

5 year, 1992 or 1993?

6 A. It commenced in 1992.

7 Q. Did you know of detainees being used to work in the mines at

8 Miljevina?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When did that work commence?

11 A. I think that that was also the end of the first half of 1993.

12 April, May. I can't say for sure. It was sometime around that.

13 Q. Are you aware of detainees being used to repair the house of

14 Mr. Krnojelac?

15 A. Yes. Some of the detainees were being used to repair the house of

16 Mr. Krnojelac.

17 Q. About how many detainees from the KP Dom were used to repair his

18 house?

19 A. I don't think it was a large number of people. These were

20 primarily people who were good masons. I think that they mostly worked on

21 the roof; carpenters.

22 Q. Do you know when this work commenced?

23 A. Commenced in 1992. That I remember. I remember that it was 1992,

24 but I cannot say exactly which month it was. I think it could have been

25 the second half of 1992. Maybe September or -- I don't know. But to the

1 best of my recollection, that would seem right.

2 Q. And do you know how long this work continued for?

3 A. I think that this lasted for about ten days, approximately. As

4 far as I can remember.

5 Q. Are you aware of people, Muslim detainees, being taken to work at

6 the Foca hospital?

7 A. Yes. Yes. These were primarily workers who worked on taking

8 waste materials out of the heating room. And then also there were

9 furniture workers who went to assemble some wardrobes at the hospital. I

10 think that some also worked on the installations. I don't know for sure,

11 but I do know that they were taken out to work at the hospital.

12 Q. And are you aware of people working at the Foca socks factory?

13 A. Yes. Yes, I'm aware of that too. They were involved in some of

14 the craftsmen's work or installations. Of course, they didn't work on the

15 actual manufacturing of socks. They worked on maintenance primarily.

16 Q. Do you know when this work commenced?

17 A. Quite early. 1992, at any rate.

18 Q. The work at the hospital, do you know when that commenced?

19 A. The same, 1992. Early in 1992. Perhaps mid-1992.

20 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac's house was repaired by Muslim

21 detainees. Were there any other destroyed properties repaired by Muslim

22 detainees in Foca?

23 A. I don't know about anybody's house in particular, but I do know

24 that they did carry out some craftsmen's jobs. They worked as painters,

25 carpenters, et cetera, at some places. And if we're talking about early

1 in 1992, it was not [sic] in that period. It was later in 1993, perhaps

2 even in 1994. These were temporary jobs. It was not a permanent thing.

3 Q. You mentioned that after July 1992, the numbers of workers began

4 to increase. Do you know what the maximum number of workers working at

5 the KP Dom was at any one time?

6 A. Let me try to add up all these numbers.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours. It seems to me I've

8 seen an error in the transcript. I think that the witness said that these

9 repairs of houses were not only in 1992 but were also in 1993, whereas the

10 transcript says that they did not take place in 1992. This is line --

11 JUDGE HUNT: I see what you mean, but he has already said earlier

12 that they did start in 1992.

13 I remind you the transcript is checked. This LiveNote version is

14 checked against the tape each evening before it's issued, and if there are

15 any errors like that, they should be picked up.

16 He has said that the building work took place in 1992 as well.

17 That was about a page ago.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 MR. SMITH:

20 Q. You're now trying to add up the numbers of Muslim detainees

21 working at the time when it was at its maximum.

22 A. I think 60 to 80 persons. I think that that was the highest

23 number. Or perhaps between 80 and 100. I cannot say for sure.

24 Well, let me put it more specifically. Eighty to one hundred

25 persons, to my mind.

1 Q. And that was at its maximum. What time period would that have

2 been about when people -- the most amount of Muslim detainees were

3 working? When was that?

4 A. Not everything was done at the same time. That's why it's a bit

5 difficult to say exactly when most of them worked at a given point in

6 time, all of them at the same time.

7 I think that in the beginning of 1993, the largest number of

8 persons was engaged in various jobs, regardless of whether it was the farm

9 or the furniture factory, the mechanical workshop, the mines, and other

10 temporary jobs. At any rate, I think the maximum was between 80 and 100

11 persons.

12 Q. Was this work paid or unpaid?

13 A. Of course we were not paid for this work. Nobody expected this

14 work to be paid for.

15 Q. You stated that you approached Mr. Todovic to work because you

16 wanted some extra food. Is that what normally happened? Did most

17 detainees approach either Mr. Todovic or someone else to work or were

18 detainees requested to work?

19 A. In my case specifically, I was the one who requested it. However,

20 I think that all the other workers were actually appointed by the head

21 officials, and they were called out. There were lists of their names and

22 they were called out.

23 Q. Did they have a choice, these people that were called out to

24 work? Did they have a choice? Could they say no, they didn't want to

25 work?

1 A. I think that it was risky to say that one refused to work.

2 Especially if someone did not have any serious medical reasons for

3 refusing, I think it would have been very risky to turn it down. I know

4 that there were also cases when the head officials made those who said

5 that they were ill on that day go out and work; they had to work

6 nevertheless.

7 Q. When you say that you felt that it was risky for people to turn

8 down or to refuse to work, what was the risk? What was the risk that you

9 felt that they would suffer if they refused to work?

10 A. Precisely it is this security/safety risk. I think that people

11 did not dare turn down work because a sanction would follow, either

12 solitary confinement or forced labour. But at any rate, it was very risky

13 to turn down work that was supposed to be carried out.

14 Q. You've mentioned a number of areas in which Muslim detainees

15 worked at the KP Dom. What was Mr. Todovic's involvement in those areas?

16 Was he the coordinator of that work?

17 A. From an organisational point of view, I don't know how this was

18 worked out among the top people. But as far as we were concerned,

19 Mr. Todovic was the operations person who decided who would go to do what;

20 he was in operational contact with us. How this division of labour took

21 place, or, rather, who would coordinate with the detainees, and how this

22 was organised among the top people of the KP Dom, that I'm really not

23 aware of.

24 Q. Do you know a Mr. Murat Islambasic?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Was he forced to work at the KP Dom?

2 A. Yes, yes, I think he was forced to work.

3 Q. What type of work was he asked to do?

4 A. He was a driver. As far as I know, at first he had to drive a

5 truck, most probably in order to have minefields destroyed.

6 Q. Could you explain that a bit more fully? How was the driver of

7 the truck --

8 A. I think he was forced to drive his vehicle across mines so that

9 mines would be destroyed, and that in that way a minefield would be

10 cleared.

11 Q. How did you know about this? Who gave you this information, other

12 prisoners? Or did you know from Mr. Islambasic?

13 A. I found out about that from other detainees because I was never in

14 the same room with him.

15 Q. Was he the only detainee involved in this type of work, or were

16 other detainees also involved with him?

17 A. I am not aware of that. Possibly one more man, I suspect that he

18 might have been chosen for these jobs too, but I'm not sure.

19 Q. What was the general working day that people were required to

20 work? How many hours were they required to work?

21 A. Eight hours, most of the time; of course there were some breaks

22 too.

23 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I've finished that topic. I have a few

24 follow-up questions which I would say would take about 15 minutes, I would

25 like to show the witness a couple of exhibits, and then that would be the

1 end of the examination-in-chief.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I was noticing that the witness has been giving

3 evidence for nearly the five hours that were estimated, so I was hoping we

4 were getting towards the end of it.

5 MR. SMITH: It has been a bit lengthy, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it was estimated for five hours. That does

7 seem a very long examination, but that's nobody's fault.

8 Very well. We'll take the adjournment now. I'm not sure which

9 clock is correct. The clock on the LiveNote certainly is not. I make it

10 two and a half to, so perhaps we'll take an early break.

11 At 2.30 we'll resume.

12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

3 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Lojo, I just have a few questions about some matters you

5 raised this morning. You mentioned when you were first interviewed by

6 Mr. Krnojelac that a guard took you to the office and there you

7 discussed --

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] He said that Mr. Krnojelac questioned

11 him when he talked to him or when he was brought in, not when he was

12 interrogated or questioned.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps I better read the question to you: "You

14 mentioned when you were first interviewed by Mr. Krnojelac that a guard

15 took you to the office and there you discussed --" and at that stage you

16 objected. It may have been the interpretation, but there is no suggestion

17 of interrogation in the question.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] In the translation, I heard

19 "interviewed" or "questioned."

20 JUDGE HUNT: Certainly the word "interviewed" was used but that's

21 not "interrogated," not in the sense in which that word is being used

22 here.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] He asked him questions.

24 MR. SMITH: Perhaps I might put it another way.

25 Q. When you requested to see Mr. Krnojelac the first time about your

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1 release, about requesting him to release you, how did the guard that took

2 you there, how did he address Mr. Krnojelac?

3 A. I can't remember how he addressed him in the office, but I know he

4 told me that I was to go to see the warden, Warden Krnojelac, to see him.

5 And I had already asked to see him. Or perhaps the guard didn't say

6 anything, the one who brought me in.

7 Q. In your discussion about your release, was the Crisis Staff ever

8 mentioned by Mr. Krnojelac in relation to your release?

9 A. I think he did mention the Crisis Staff, about how the possibility

10 was being discussed of deporting or, rather, of exchanging people in the

11 direction of Montenegro. I think that was something along those lines.

12 Q. In what context did he mention the Crisis Staff in terms of the

13 Crisis Staff's view or can you provide a bit more detail as to the context

14 in which the Crisis Staff came up in that discussion?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness has just explained how he

18 mentioned it and in what way. I think this is leading the witness to an

19 answer which would be different from the one he's already given.

20 JUDGE HUNT: It was a description in very general terms of

21 deporting or, rather, exchanging people in the direction of Montenegro.

22 Now, the next question is: "Can you provide a bit more detail as to the

23 context in which the Crisis Staff came up in that discussion." That may

24 be very important to demonstrate why that was mentioned. It may be

25 because he was asked about it or because he raised it himself.

1 No. The question, so far as I can see, is not a leading one.

2 Yes, Mr. Smith.

3 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Can you provide a bit more detail in how the Crisis Staff term was

5 used within that conversation?

6 A. The Crisis Staff was just briefly touched upon. There was no --

7 any proper discussion about it. I don't even remember if I did -- if I

8 mentioned the Crisis Staff the first time or the second time when I went

9 to see Mr. Krnojelac.

10 No. Now -- now it comes back to me. It was on the first time,

11 but no details were mentioned at all. It was simply -- it was -- the

12 statement about the Crisis Staff was glossed over in no time.

13 Q. You also mentioned this morning that you were going for an

14 interview with an inspector and on the stairs you came across

15 Mr. Mehmedspahic, and he was shaking badly and you'd never seen someone in

16 that sort of state before.

17 Where were you when you saw Mr. Mehmedspahic? Which steps are you

18 talking about?

19 A. Well, perhaps I could show it on that picture we just saw here,

20 but I can describe it. It is the staircase leading to the inspectors'

21 offices, and I believe it is building number 1, as far as I can remember.

22 If you could show the drawing of the KP Dom to me, I can show it, the

23 exact place.

24 MR. SMITH: If P88 could be placed on the ELMO.

25 A. Oh, sorry. It was upside-down and I could not see. Just a

1 moment.

2 It is this building 1, and then I was walking up the stairs to

3 what I think were inspectors' offices on the top-most floor, but I'm not

4 absolutely sure. But be that as it may, this is where I saw Avdo

5 Mehmedspahic, who was going to see one of those inspectors, presumably for

6 a discussion or an interview. And I went on to see another inspector,

7 also for an interview, but I would describe it as a practically private

8 conversation.

9 Q. Did you see Mr. Mehmedspahic on the ground floor, the first floor,

10 or the second floor?

11 A. I saw him somewhere -- somewhere on the stairs. We met on the

12 staircase, at the bottom of the staircase, and I helped him. I took him

13 by his elbow and helped him upstairs.

14 Q. Is that the staircase in building number 2?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for counsel. We cannot hear

17 him.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise to the witness. The

19 witness has just shown it and said "building number 1." That is what the

20 transcript says too.

21 JUDGE HUNT: That's so, Mr. Smith, at line 8, I think it is.

22 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: "It is this building 1, and then I was walking up the

24 stairs ..."

25 MR. SMITH: Your Honours, that was my mistake. It was after that,

1 at the point he went across to building 2 --

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

3 MR. SMITH: -- and I didn't remember the last bits of transcript.

4 JUDGE HUNT: The problem for us who are listening to an

5 interpretation is that the interpretation is running about half a sentence

6 behind what the witness is saying. So what he's pointing to is not

7 necessarily what we are hearing in the interpretation. But the transcript

8 made it very clear that he had said building 1 previously.

9 MR. SMITH: That was my mistake.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

11 MR. SMITH:

12 Q. Can you briefly give a description of how Mr. Mehmedspahic looked

13 at that time?

14 A. What struck me was that he had difficulty moving, that it hurt

15 him, that he could not -- that his legs would not support him because he

16 had evidently been beaten on his legs. He was shaking, but I think that

17 was fear, because I guess he was being taken again for interrogation of

18 sorts.

19 Q. Did he say whether he was beaten on that day that you saw him or

20 some previous day?

21 A. I think he was beaten before that. But otherwise, and I believe

22 many witnesses will confirm that, he was beaten several times. And when I

23 say "beaten," I mean beaten right and proper.

24 Q. And the interview that you were going to, who was that with?

25 A. With one of the inspectors.

1 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to show you a few exhibits, Exhibit

2 number -- sorry, Prosecution identification number 173 and 173A. And I

3 believe the Registry has some copies.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Can you tell us which volume they're in in the

5 papers?

6 MR. SMITH: At a guess, volume 6, Your Honour. I'm sorry, Your

7 Honour, in volume 5.

8 JUDGE HUNT: So far as I was concerned, you were right the first

9 time.

10 MR. SMITH: Sorry, it is 6. If the English could be placed on the

11 ELMO.

12 Q. Mr. Lojo, this is a certificate issued by the State Commission for

13 Exchange of War Prisoners, and it is issued in relation to you. Are the

14 details in that certificate correct as to your details and your stay at

15 the KP Dom?

16 A. Yes, this is all accurate.

17 Q. And you received a copy of that certificate when you arrived in

18 Sarajevo; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If you would now look at Prosecution identification number 172?

21 MR. SMITH: If that could be placed on the ELMO. Sorry, 172.

22 That's 175. No, that's a summary. It's actually the certificate that

23 Mr. Lojo is holding.

24 A. Is that it?

25 Q. Looking at the details on that certificate, it has your name and

1 some other details in relation to your registration with the Red Cross and

2 visits by the Red Cross. Do those dates accord with your recollection of

3 the visits of the Red Cross?

4 A. I remember that I was registered with the Red Cross before that.

5 This is one of those subsequent visits in August, the 30th of August,

6 which this mentions. I believe I was registered in May, because there was

7 one team of the Red Cross at that time.

8 Q. It was in May 1992 or 1993?

9 A. That was in 1992, yes.

10 Q. Did you receive this certificate --

11 A. But what it says down here -- may I? Excuse me. The date of

12 registration, it says, "Registered by ICRC delegate on the 23rd of June,"

13 and above it, it says, "Present on the 30th of August, 1992, in the place

14 KP Dom Foca." So that the above date was probably not put there by the

15 Red Cross, and after all, it doesn't say that either.

16 But even the 23rd of June, 1993 is something that I absolutely

17 cannot accept, because by that time I had already been in the penitentiary

18 for more than a year. But there was one registration which took place, I

19 think, in May when there was a team of the ICRC. This could be one of the

20 subsequent ICRC visits when they, perhaps, registered me again.

21 Q. Did you receive this certificate from the Red Cross?

22 A. I do have a certificate from the International Red Cross, from

23 Geneva, I believe, and it says that on the 30th of August, I was in the

24 penitentiary and that I was registered on the 23rd of June. But that's

25 the same.

1 Q. This particular --

2 A. The first time we were issued with some small cardboard pieces. I

3 might have it still at home amongst my personal documents, but I don't

4 have it on me.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, I don't understand what the problem is.

6 It says that he was notified as being present. He was notified by the

7 detaining authorities having been present on the 30th of August. Does it

8 matter whether he was actually registered on that date or not?

9 MR. SMITH: No, it doesn't, Your Honour. I'll move on to the

10 next. I'll ask that certificate number 175A be placed on the ELMO and

11 175B be given to the witness.

12 A. Oh, I see. This is a translation.

13 MR. SMITH:

14 Q. Mr. Lojo, you mentioned in your evidence that your wife and

15 family, when they left Foca, they needed a permit to leave, and this

16 permit was given to -- a permit was given to --

17 A. Yes, that is correct. That is correct. And that is the permit,

18 ID 175.

19 Q. Did your wife provide you with a copy of this permit?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want those entered into evidence?

23 MR. SMITH: I would like those last three exhibits to be entered

24 into evidence.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not hear at all.

2 Does the Prosecutor wish to tender it? I'm not getting the

3 interpretation.

4 No, no, no. I have no objections, no. Thank you.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Those documents will now become Prosecution -- I'm

6 sorry -- Exhibits P172 and 172A, 173 and 173A, 175 and 175A.

7 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, there's only P172. The translation is

8 actually on the original document itself.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. You're quite right.

10 MR. SMITH: And the other exhibits, P397, that's previously been

11 tendered. And P18-00407289/1, I believe, has previously been tendered as

12 well.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Exhibit 18 went in as a whole. When the

14 witness was marking the photograph, there was a discussion about it in the

15 transcript, and that one that he marked became whatever number it was /1.

16 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Cross-examination.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague Mr. Vasic

19 will undertake to cross-examine this witness.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I

21 should like to say good afternoon to the witness.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

23 Q. I'm Miroslav Vlasic, Witness, and I'm one of the counsel defending

24 the accused Krnojelac.

25 A. Good afternoon.

1 Q. At the outset, I should like to go back to the period of time

2 before the armed conflict and touch upon what you said in your statement

3 here, and that is that you were not a member of any of the

4 ethnically-coloured parties. However, I suppose since you were a manager

5 of a company that you had some responsible tasks, that you did keep

6 abreast of the political light in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time, didn't

7 you?

8 A. Is that a question?

9 Q. No. My specific question is: Do you know when the Party for

10 Democratic Action and the Serb Democratic Party were formed, which year?

11 A. To tell you honestly, I don't know. I was never interested in

12 that party, and I did not say only that I was not a member of

13 ethnically-coloured parties. I said that I was not a member of any party

14 and that I said that privately my sympathies lay with the Social

15 Democratic Party.

16 As for the precise date of the establishment of

17 ethnically-coloured parties, I really cannot give you a definite answer.

18 Q. No. All I was asking you about was the year, if you know.

19 A. Well, I guess that those parties were formed a couple of years

20 earlier. Then there were the elections, and those ethnically-coloured

21 parties then seized power. But that should have been, well, to my mind,

22 1990 at the latest, but I'm really not sure.

23 Q. Thank you. In your testimony, you told us about what you knew

24 about the organisation of the penitentiary or, rather, the function of the

25 warden before the armed conflict, that is, at the time when the KP Dom,

1 when the penitentiary functioned in peacetime.

2 Could you tell me if you know whether in that hierarchy there was

3 also a duty, a job which was the duty of the manager of the business unit

4 of the KP Dom?

5 A. I believe so. Whether that was the exact title or not, I don't

6 know. But there was definitely a person who was responsible for that

7 business unit.

8 Q. And would you know who held that post before the war?

9 A. I have to say that the internal organisation of the KP Dom was

10 something that I was not sufficiently familiar with. I knew that they had

11 a business unit and that there was somebody in charge of it and somebody

12 was in charge of the furniture factory. They had this metal shop,

13 metal-working shop which also worked. They also manufactured things for

14 the market. There was a maintenance unit. But who held what job, I don't

15 know.

16 I know that, for instance, Radojica Tesovic worked and that for a

17 while he was either the manager of the business unit or perhaps one of the

18 chiefs, one of the executives in the penitentiary, but I'm not sure.

19 Q. Thank you. But since you were a businessman, do you know if this

20 business unit of the KP Dom -- of the Foca KP Dom -- and it was called

21 Drina -- do you think if it was a profitable unit? Did they earn any

22 money for the penitentiary?

23 A. Well, what I can tell you is that it was a state-owned company of

24 particular interest, and I do not think that profits or any rate of return

25 came into question ever.

1 Q. Thank you. Now I should like to go back to the early days of the

2 armed conflict in which you said that first there was fighting with

3 infantry weapons. Could you tell me which -- who clashed?

4 A. I guess that it was only two adversaries. One was the Muslim side

5 and the other one was the Serb side.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Lojo, do pause before you give the answer so the

8 translators can catch up, will you?

9 A. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Then you also said that you saw directly -- that you recorded

12 directly the time when houses were set on fire in the part of the town

13 called Prijeka Carsija. You told us about some houses that had burned

14 down and which were owned by Muslims.

15 I should like to ask you now to tell me if you know about some

16 facilities in that area which were owned by Serbs and if you know whether

17 they also burned down or not on that occasion.

18 A. I do not think I gave any definite answer that it was only those

19 Muslim houses which burnt down. I was asked if there were any Muslim

20 outlets or businesses there, the outlets which belonged to Muslim

21 craftsmen.

22 Q. No, no, no. I did not say that you claimed that it was only

23 Muslim outlets that had burned down.

24 A. I say you -- that is how you put it. You said --

25 Q. No.

1 A. You said names of Muslims whose businesses had burned down, and I

2 said there were Muslim businesses in that area. I have no knowledge of

3 what businesses burnt down and what businesses survived and who they

4 belonged to.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, you recall that at the time this evidence

6 was sought to be led from the witness, I suggested to Mr. Smith that he

7 might move on to another point because the witness obviously was not able

8 to assist us. Now, you may get a better answer, but I suggest you move on

9 to another point as well, unless you really think you're going to get

10 somewhere.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. All I wanted

12 when I asked this question was to mention three or four buildings and to

13 ask the witness whether he knows if they had burned down, and if they

14 belonged to Serbs. That was my only question about that particular

15 subject.

16 JUDGE HUNT: You proceed, and we'll see how we go.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Now, do you know if Niko Sokolovic's tailor shop burnt down?

19 A. I don't know. I know, except I wasn't sure whether Niko Sokolovic

20 ran an active business there, because it was many years before the war

21 that I stopped seeing him. But I know the facility where he used to work,

22 that is, I do know. But at the time when the war broke out, who owned

23 that particular outlet at that time, I really don't know.

24 Q. Then a shop which sold calendars and candles and it belonged to

25 Radonja Ristovic. It was a various church -- it sold different types of

1 church objects.

2 A. I do not know where it was.

3 Q. Then Mile Perisic's business?

4 A. Milo Perisic, yes, he was a plumber, and I know the name. His

5 name rings a bell. I think that his plumbing shop was near Sokolovic's

6 business. But what happened to it, who owned that particular shop when

7 the war broke out, I really know nothing about that.

8 Q. Then the bakery shop of Vukosav Djurovic's?

9 A. No, I have no idea. And I don't say, I do not claim -- I don't

10 say whether it existed or not. I simply don't know.

11 Q. And a lawyer --

12 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, do you think you're getting anywhere at

13 all? Do you think you might want to get on to something else? This

14 witness does not know who owned the buildings at --

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. In your statement today you mentioned the exchange that you had

17 with a number of women and elderly people, who were taken from Partizan to

18 Cajnice for an exchange. You also said to us that this exchange went down

19 the drain and you told us what the reasons for that were, according to

20 what you had been told.

21 Could you just describe this to us, when you went for this

22 exchange and how? You said it was in July. Can you tell us which part of

23 the month of July this was?

24 A. I think this was the first half of July, the beginning of the

25 month, I think. And what was your second question?

1 Q. How were you taken there?

2 A. I was taken there by truck. I personally was on a truck with 11

3 more people, I think, on a small truck, and there were some wooden benches

4 in there, something like that. I know that it was a most uncomfortable

5 ride; I couldn't sit down for three days after that. We went via

6 Celebici, towards Pljevlja. At that time it wasn't even a real road, it

7 was just a makeshift passageway. I remember that for three days I could

8 not sit down; that's the kind of road it was.

9 As regards the persons who were taken from the youth centre, they

10 were in a separate vehicle - it was a small bus or something like that -

11 and the persons that I mentioned were there: women, old people, children,

12 for the most part.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

14 microphone.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. After the exchange went down the drain --

17 JUDGE HUNT: Just one second.

18 Mr. Lojo, could you bring your seat a little closer to the

19 microphones? The interpreters are having difficulty hearing you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I do apologise. I think I

21 wasn't being very careful, sitting that way.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Can you describe your return, that is to say, after the exchange

24 went down the drain, how you returned to the KP Dom?

25 A. Well, nothing special happened on our way back. We were returned

1 the same way; however, the checking at the entrance to the KP Dom was much

2 more rigorous than before.

3 Q. Who carried out these checks?

4 A. The guards of the KP Dom.

5 Q. Can you tell me whether the entire group that set out from the KP

6 Dom by truck was returned to the KP Dom as well?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Tell me, were there other exchanges in which the

9 people from the KP Dom mixed with women and children and other people who

10 were staying at other places before being exchanged?

11 A. I don't know about that. We were not in a position to know. We

12 only know about our people who were taken away. What happened outside and

13 who was taken by bus or by truck, I don't know about that, I'm not aware

14 of that.

15 Q. Thank you. You spoke about this first meeting with Milorad

16 Krnojelac which took place in the visitors' rooms. Can you tell us how

17 long this meeting, this talk, lasted?

18 A. The first talk, you mean?

19 Q. The first one, yes.

20 A. A maximum of ten minutes.

21 Q. During your interview with the investigators of the OTP, did you

22 say that such conversations were not allowed?

23 A. Possibly I could have said something like that; however, I mean,

24 it is only natural to assume that you could not talk to the warden any

25 time you wanted to.

1 Q. Let me clarify this. Did you tell the investigator of the OTP

2 that a person in camouflage uniform kept entering the room all the time,

3 saying that the meeting had to be over as soon as possible?

4 A. I don't remember whether I said "all the time," but it is quite

5 certain that a person, whose name I even mentioned today, did enter the

6 room and, in a way, made it clear that such a conversation was not

7 allowed, or that it should be cut short.

8 Q. Would it be helpful if I showed you your statement, the statement

9 you gave to the investigator of the OTP on the 2nd of December, 1998?

10 A. Well, I can take a look at it, but I know what I could have said.

11 Q. Very well. Thank you. Bearing in mind what you knew about the

12 powers of the warden of the KP Dom in peacetime, was it strange, in your

13 opinion, that a person in camouflage uniform, which was green, you said,

14 interrupted the warden and asked him to cut a conversation short?

15 A. Well, he wasn't that categorical, this person who kept entering

16 the room. Perhaps he put it gently, that such conversation was not

17 allowed.

18 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You said that you met Mr. Krnojelac on

19 another occasion.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Excuse me. There's just another thing I wanted to ask you in

22 connection with this first meeting you had.

23 You said today that you wrote a request, in writing, for this

24 first meeting, and it seems to me that you told the investigator of the

25 Tribunal that you asked Mr. Rasevic orally to take you to Krnojelac.

1 A. Since you've mentioned some kind of written request, I must tell

2 you that it's not a real request. A request should be a piece of paper

3 where it should say what the heading is, the name and surname of the

4 person who this is addressed to. This was just a little note, as we say,

5 this little piece of paper that we would give the guard, and he would give

6 that to the warden, just stating our name, and then he realised that we

7 wanted to talk to him. It's not a real document, you see.

8 Q. So did you do this in writing or orally, through Mr. Rasevic?

9 A. To tell you the truth, I'm not even sure of that. But I think

10 it's not of any consequence whatsoever, whether it was a little piece of

11 paper that I had handed over to him or to another soldier, or whether I

12 asked Mitar Rasevic orally whether I could go and see the warden.

13 Q. Let us go back to this other meeting. You said that ten days

14 after the exchange that failed, Mr. Krnojelac called you to ask you why

15 the exchange was not carried out.

16 A. I don't think I said precisely ten days.

17 Q. Well, all right, approximately. That's not even that important.

18 A. Well, you have to be more specific.

19 THE INTERPRETER: And could there not be any overlapping, please.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. I was just about to say, Mr. Vasic, you

21 too should wait at the end of the answer before you ask the next question

22 to enable the interpreters to catch up. Both parties, because you're

23 speaking the same language, it's very easy to overlook the fact that you

24 are being translated. So please give us a pause so that the translators

25 can catch up.

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. I'm

2 trying to follow the French interpretation, and I hear it in the

3 background, I have the headphones on. But I'll try to bear this in mind.

4 Thank you.

5 Q. In your opinion, is it strange that a warden, with the kind of

6 authority that you are familiar with from the pre-war days, asks you for

7 the reasons why an exchange failed almost ten days after this event took

8 place?

9 A. Why do you think that peacetime conditions and the new conditions

10 are practically the same?

11 Q. Thank you. Tell me, in these newly created conditions, wasn't it

12 strange to you that the warden of the KP Dom does not know why an exchange

13 was carried out, and ten days after this event took place, as I said?

14 A. I have to tell you that it was very strange to me. I even had the

15 impression that this exchange was just a publicity stunt, because in

16 Cajnice we had TV reporters, radio reporters, waiting for us. They

17 interviewed us; they interviewed me about something too. But again, I'm

18 not categorical about this. I'm not saying that the Muslim side did not

19 want to exchange prisoners of war for civilians.

20 Now you're asking me whether it's strange whether the warden,

21 according to the authority he had in civilian times, was asking me about

22 this. There were these newly created conditions in which a lot of things

23 were not known.

24 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, when you talked about the

25 interrogators, you mentioned the name of Petko Gasevic and you said that

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1 you knew him. Can you tell me whether he was an investigator of the

2 military police or of the regular police?

3 A. I do not know at all about the existence of investigators of both

4 the civilian police and the military police. I said that Petko Gasevic

5 had expressed interest in me and had asked somebody over the phone what

6 they should do to me. Let me be quite literal: It was my estimate,

7 judging by the look on his face, that I would not leave prison for quite

8 some time.

9 Q. Do you know who he talked to on the phone?

10 A. No, I don't.

11 Q. Thank you. In your statement today you talked about Savo

12 Todovic. Did you state to the investigators of the OTP that the authority

13 vested in Savo Todovic was extensive and that he behaved as if he had all

14 possible powers over military and security matters?

15 A. I think that I did not say "all powers over military and security

16 matters," but I did say that either he had extensive authority or that he

17 had given himself extensive authority.

18 Q. Would it be helpful if I showed you your statement, the one that

19 you gave on the 2nd of December, 1998 to the investigator of the Office of

20 the Prosecutor?

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Again, I would like to ask the usher

22 for his assistance. This is 171A.

23 Your Honour, I would like to quote the paragraph that starts with

24 the following words --

25 JUDGE HUNT: Can you give us the page number, please?

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Number 4.

2 THE INTERPRETER: We'd ask for the document to be placed on the

3 ELMO, please. We haven't got it.

4 JUDGE HUNT: You mean the English version of it?

5 THE INTERPRETER: We don't have any version.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, why haven't the translators been

7 given copies of these statements?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we did not identify it as a

9 document to be tendered into evidence by us, and therefore we didn't

10 submit it.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Surely you have learnt, as we have learnt, that

12 cross-examination is always dependent, to some extent, upon the statements

13 they gave to the OTP, whether they're tendered in evidence or not. It

14 would be preferable, I think, if the translators were given copies,

15 because we have this with every witness, where they are cross-examined on

16 some suggested inconsistency between their evidence and the statements

17 they gave the OTP.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we will do that in the future.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

20 Now, this is page 4 of the B/C/S version, is it, Mr. Vasic?

21 Remember that the English version is not similarly paginated so we have to

22 actually find the paragraph.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is page number 4 both

24 in B/C/S and in the English version, except that in the English version,

25 the last numbers are 6733.

1 JUDGE HUNT: How does the paragraph begin?

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] "When Krnojelac left this post." Your

3 Honour, the English version is on the ELMO right now.

4 JUDGE HUNT: You proceed. It's not the document that I've got in

5 my file of documents, but at least I can see it.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to read very slowly because

7 the interpreters haven't got the document.

8 "When Krnojelac left his post, he was replaced by his hitherto

9 deputy Savo Todovic, and his authority was extensive. Todovic behaved as

10 if he had full authority over military and security matters. He would

11 call out people's names and check on people at all times of the day. He

12 would personally interrogate people, beat them, and put them into solitary

13 confinement. I never heard that Krnojelac had used his authority to abuse

14 people in this way. On the other hand, I don't know what authority

15 Krnojelac had to prevent abuse."

16 The text continues about Todovic being warden then, and we already

17 heard about that from this witness.

18 I would like to ask the witness whether he did say this, whether

19 this is his statement, whether he signed it and whether he read it when he

20 gave this statement to the investigator of the Prosecution.

21 A. Yes. And I point out that I said "as if," "as if." He behaved

22 "as if."

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. When I said "as if," it means that he may not necessarily have

1 had that kind of --

2 Q. Thank you. That was my only question.

3 A. However, I fully abide by this statement.

4 Q. Thank you very much. When you talked about punishment that was

5 meted out upon detainees, you said that the reason for this were trifles

6 and attempts to escape. What about these trifles? Are you referring to

7 infractions in terms of prison discipline?

8 A. In most cases, yes.

9 Q. Thank you. You said that on one occasion you saw new detainees

10 being brought in and that the guards were beating them as they were

11 entering the compound. Could you tell us exactly where this happened and

12 where you were, in which room?

13 A. I said that there was a good view from my room, Room 15, of the

14 entrance gate. Exit gate too, but let's call it the entrance gate. When

15 detainees were being brought in, they were roughly thrown into the

16 compound and very often they were beaten as well.

17 Q. Could you just tell me whether they beat them within the

18 compound?

19 A. Yes. Within the compound, yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Did you say to the investigator of the OTP, on the

21 19th and 20th of November, 1995, that you had heard that a lot of Muslims

22 had been killed on their way to the KP Dom and that the members of their

23 families believed that they were in the KP Dom and that was actually not

24 the case?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Thank you. You talked about a prisoner who died, unfortunately,

2 because he could not take food since he had a problem with his mouth. Do

3 you know what kind of a problem this was that he had with his mouth?

4 A. I do not know exactly because I was not in his room.

5 Q. So you only heard about it?

6 A. Yes. I heard about it because we were in contact amongst

7 ourselves, and I heard that he had this problem.

8 Q. Who did you hear this from? Can you tell us that?

9 A. Somebody from that Room 15.

10 Q. Do you know the name?

11 A. I can give you a few names now of persons from that room if that

12 means anything to you.

13 Q. I think it would mean something to the Defence, because they are

14 the only persons whom we can ask about the problems that this detainee

15 had.

16 A. (redacted)

17 (redacted). Then there was --

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour?

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

20 A. I'm sorry, I'm afraid to mention names now because they might be

21 witness names. I have only three names here, I mean, with numbers, so I

22 don't know. Perhaps I will be mentioning a protected name. I don't know,

23 and I do apologise for that.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Is that your problem?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That is my concern.

1 JUDGE HUNT: Of course, if he mentions a name and somebody later

2 on is called as a witness, nobody is going to tie the two together if that

3 witness has got protective measures. But have you got a list of the

4 witnesses that you can give Mr. Lojo?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have produced a list, but we have only put

6 on is list the names that we expected he would say. Therefore, I have no

7 list at the moment to give to him except for the entire witness list.

8 JUDGE HUNT: But the point that I was making was that if he

9 mentions names, all we know is that they are detainees in the prison. We

10 don't know that they're going to give evidence. If they do give evidence

11 later and if they do have protective measures, there is no way in which

12 somebody else can tie the two together, surely.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, you're right, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE HUNT: So you proceed, Mr. Lojo.

15 A. I think that one of them was a witness recently and that's why I

16 paused.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps you better put that name down on a piece of

18 paper and it can be shown to the Prosecution. Then we'll know whether or

19 not it is a protected witness.

20 A. Well, give me a piece of paper, please. I haven't got a pencil or

21 a piece of paper.

22 I wrote the names of three persons. Is that enough?

23 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, also the name that the witness

24 did give, is that one that should be redacted?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The first name is actually the name he

1 mentioned, and it's actually the Witness 71, I think. Either 71 or 76.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well then, we'll have that one redacted. Yes.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next person he has written down is the

4 Witness 139.

5 JUDGE HUNT: So can you put the numbers beside it so he can have

6 the list back?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the third one is not a witness.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we hear the name of

10 the third person who is not -- who will not be testifying?

11 A. I'm asking if we know the two of them are witnesses and both

12 protected witnesses, then how do we go about this?

13 JUDGE HUNT: You use the numbers that are beside the two where the

14 numbers have been written, and you may use the name of the third one.

15 A. Right. So I will say person 71 and person 139.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] And the name of the third person, I've

17 already -- if Mr. Lojo would give us the name of the third person.

18 A. I'd rather not say.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Vasic, if the witness has some problem

20 about revealing his name, we perhaps could give you a look at the document

21 so that you know the name and it need not be stated in the transcript.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I have nothing against that. Thank

23 you very much, Your Honour. Yes, of course I agree. Thank you.

24 JUDGE HUNT: And the identity of that witness should not be

25 revealed by you to any person other than your client, of course. If you

1 use the person's -- if you want to use the person's name, you'll have to

2 refer to it by some other pseudonym.

3 Mr. Lojo, have you got any problem with counsel for the accused

4 seeing that name? It won't be made public though. It will be exactly --

5 it will put him in exactly the same situation as the other two names you

6 have in your list. Counsel for the accused know the identity of those

7 witnesses, but they're not allowed to use their names or to reveal their

8 names or their identity to the public.

9 A. Well, I was about to -- they're the only ones that I'd really

10 rather not show it or say it. Had I wanted this name to be mentioned

11 among people who have something to do with this case, then I -- and I do

12 not really see why you insist on this at all.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, at the present time, I would not be

14 disposed to order him to provide it to you. If you've got two names and

15 you want to make some further inquiries, you know who they are, you can

16 proceed. If you have some problem, you come back to us. But the document

17 itself should be marked for identification. It will be marked 2 for

18 identification.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours. Your Honours, excuse

20 me. May I have your leave?

21 These two persons are witnesses. One has already testified. We

22 have no means of checking except with the witness who is mentioned here,

23 and yet it's not a witness for the Prosecution. The only way we can check

24 what the witness is saying today is to check with that particular person.

25 The other two witnesses for the Prosecution or, rather, the witness for

1 the Prosecution and one of them has already testified.

2 JUDGE HUNT: The one thing that is clear is that the Prosecution

3 has no ownership of these witnesses. If you want to interview them, you

4 are entitled to do so. So you should not feel in any way reticent about

5 proceeding to talk to the Prosecution's witnesses.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I understand well,

7 these numbers and this name will be filed and will be kept in the file,

8 won't they? The Defence will try first to ask the witness, the witness

9 for the Prosecution who has not testified yet. So when his turn comes, we

10 shall try to ask him about this individual who had trouble with taking

11 food. And if we do not get the info -- necessary information, then we

12 shall request or apply to the Court to allow that the third name be

13 divulged to us so that we ascertain what happened to that man and how did

14 he die.

15 JUDGE HUNT: I should set one thing straight though. It will not

16 be filed. The document will be marked for identification. It will given

17 to the Prosecution to keep because it is their witness.

18 No doubt the Prosecution will speak to Mr. Lojo later to find out

19 the basis of his objection to anybody else seeing that name and it's a

20 matter we can come back to if we have to later on, but it is not an

21 exhibit and it does not go on the official court file.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, maybe I can even now help. The

23 third person is a very close relative to the witness, and I think this is

24 probably the reason that he doesn't want to say the name.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that may be so, but you can check up with that

1 later and that would be a very strong reason for not revealing it. But at

2 this stage, we don't have to rule upon it, and Defence counsel have every

3 right to speak to the Prosecution's witnesses of whom some identification

4 has been given by reference to the number, and they know their identity.

5 You can proceed, Mr. Vlasic.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. My question

7 to the witness is related to the KP Dom, that is, is the witness aware

8 that in front of the penitentiary is a road and does he know where that

9 road leads to?

10 Q. Can you tell us?

11 A. Yes, I know.

12 Q. So can you tell us?

13 A. Yes. It leads to the hospital. To the right to the hospital and

14 to the left into the heart of the town.

15 Q. Thank you. Does it pass in front of the entrance gate into the

16 KP Dom?

17 A. It's about 15 metres or so away from the entrance gate.

18 Q. Thank you. You testified today about a photograph in Exhibit 18,

19 which is a photograph, 7472, which you were shown by the Prosecution.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher please help me with

21 it.

22 Q. When you testified about this photograph, you said that in point

23 of fact, that was a view from the room that you were kept in. The upper

24 photograph, 7472.

25 A. Well, this may not be directly the view from my room, but at any

1 rate, something that you can see from Room 15. The room is probably

2 slightly more to the left. But I see no reason for this question. I

3 don't see the purpose of this question. I don't see the point.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness be

5 asked not to pass judgements on questions. The Defence knows why it asks

6 questions.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I was going to say much the same thing, but you've

8 said it now.

9 Mr. Lojo, you just answer the questions. If there is an objection

10 to be taken to it, it's up to the Prosecution to take the objection.

11 It is a fair enough question. It may be repetitious, that's all.

12 A. I agree with you, but I don't know. It's not mine to judge the

13 quality of the Defence, but it seems to me I haven't really heard a single

14 right question from the Defence. But, of course, I'm not a lawyer.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The Defence does not wish to comment

16 on this.

17 Your Honour, I'd like to ask the witness which -- in which wing of

18 the KP Dom is Room 15?

19 A. I think it will be best if I show it to you on the other

20 photograph, on that drawing.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness tell us if it's in

22 wing A or wing B?

23 A. It's neither wing A or wing B. I saw it on that drawing, and I

24 know which are the -- but Room 15 is between wings A and B.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Thank you. That is enough.

2 This view, that we see on the upper photograph, or, rather, the

3 entrance here, one can see it very well here, a very clear view of it, and

4 my question is if you can tell us in which rooms was he kept in and at

5 what periods of time. Because in this statement that he made to the

6 Prosecution, presumably by a slip of the tongue or because that was the

7 testimony, Room 12 is also mentioned, and today we heard from the witness

8 that he was not in that room. So could the witness tell us which rooms

9 was he in and at what times?

10 MR. SMITH: I object, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE HUNT: It is not for you to comment either, Mr. Vasic. If

12 that's the basis of your objection.

13 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE HUNT: If you don't want the witness to comment upon your

15 questions, you shouldn't comment upon his answers.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Now, you want him to tell you again which rooms he

18 was in.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] In which rooms he was in and the

20 times, from the beginning to the end of his detention, if he could tell us

21 that.

22 A. May I get the drawing of the KP Dom, or is it perhaps somewhere

23 here? It's easier for me. Perhaps it will be easier, it would be best,

24 if I can show it straight away.

25 JUDGE HUNT: There is both that perspective drawing, which has

1 been shown to the witness, and, if I may say so, the more useful document

2 which has the plan layout with the rooms on each floor, which is Exhibit

3 6/1, from memory.

4 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, if I can just interject here. This

5 witness seems to have more familiarity with the three-dimensional

6 drawings, and the 6/ drawings. They relate to particular levels of the

7 Muslim detention centre, wings A and B. So perhaps it might be more

8 useful to look at the 3-D drawing first and then go from there.

9 JUDGE HUNT: But when he has been pointing with the pointer there,

10 he's had to point behind a wing that comes out so that we can't really

11 see. If I may suggest, 6/1 is not all that difficult to follow for

12 somebody who sees it for the first time. It has each room with a number

13 on it, and each floor is indicated. Now, surely if we could have that, we

14 will all know what he's talking about rather than having to guess from

15 where he's placing a pointer, half a sentence of the translation from when

16 we're following it.

17 MR. SMITH: That may well assist more, Your Honour.

18 A. This is only the ground plan, of course.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. Just wait a moment. This should be

20 all of them. Hasn't he been given all of them? Give him the whole of

21 6/1, /2, /3, /4, and /5.

22 A. Here, on this drawing, we have the ground floor, the positions of

23 building 1, the storage room; building 2, as it says here. And this is

24 this part which juts out with rooms. Room 15 is in building number 1, in

25 this building here, on the top floor, roughly in this part here.

1 And you wanted to know which rooms I was in?

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. And when.

4 A. But we cannot see that. We can see that only on the

5 three-dimensional drawing. The ground plans of the rooms are practically

6 identical.

7 Q. Yes, but on them you have numbers of rooms.

8 A. But I have no reason for showing the ground plans because it's

9 much more useful to show the movement on a three-dimensional drawing.

10 JUDGE HUNT: All right. If he wants to use the three-dimensional

11 one, then let him use it. But so far as I'm concerned, if he has to point

12 behind a wall, it is very difficult to see. So if he could perhaps have

13 the other -- the plan drawings as well and work, first of all, from the

14 perspective drawing and then from the plans so that we can all follow.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] There might be a simpler solution,

16 Your Honour. I'd ask the witness to give us first the numbers of rooms

17 that he was in; then perhaps it will be easier for us to locate them.

18 A. I don't mind. I was brought to Room 13; that could also be Room

19 11 because they're one above the other. And when I was brought there, of

20 course, I knew nothing about the KP Dom or the distribution of rooms, so

21 it is very likely that I confused Room 11 and Room 13.

22 From that room I was moved to Room 15, two or three days later;

23 that is, I was brought to that room on the 19th of April, and three or

24 four days I was moved to Room 15. In Room 15 I spent quite a long time, I

25 should say, until the end of July, roughly, that is, end of August and

1 first half of September. And after these major exchanges, because there

2 were a lot of vacancies, a lot of empty rooms, I was moved to Room 18. I

3 think that I was once again, for a short while, I was taken to Room 21 for

4 two, three, maybe four days, and then taken back to Room 18.

5 From Room 18 I then got to Room 14, which is below Room 15, and

6 from Room 14 I was moved to the workers' room, number 13, where I stayed

7 until the end of my detention.

8 I often moved from one room to another. I mentioned that I stayed

9 in some only a short while, and it is possible that I was in yet another

10 room, or perhaps it just seemed to me that I'd been there. But be that as

11 it may, these were the rooms that I was in.

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we might save

13 time. The witness need not show us all those rooms because we can easily

14 find them on the ground plans that we have with us. So with your leave, I

15 should like to move on to my next question.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Please do.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. You testified today that the work group began to work in the

19 Miljevina mine sometime in April/May 1993. Are you sure that it was prior

20 to September 1993?

21 A. I am not -- I'm not sure.

22 Q. Thank you. I have just one more question for the witness and it

23 concerns Milorad Krnojelac's house.

24 Do you know where Milorad Krnojelac's house is?

25 A. More or less.

1 Q. So where is it?

2 A. It is in the area which was called Aladza. I don't know what it's

3 called now, but it is somewhere there. I could not really pinpoint the

4 place.

5 Q. Thank you. Do you know that his house was set on fire, and when?

6 A. I know that it was in the early days and that it was set on fire.

7 Q. When you say "early days," you mean the early days of the

8 conflict?

9 A. Yes, I guess so.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no more

12 questions. I should like to thank the witness. And we also wish to

13 tender the exhibit marked ID 171 and its version in B/C/S, 171A. We would

14 like to tender them as Exhibit D2. Thank you.

15 JUDGE HUNT: But, Mr. Vasic, you have got from the witness his

16 acceptance that the passage you read out to him was said to him by the OTP

17 Prosecutor. Why do we need the document? We went through this the other

18 day with the previous witness. We don't want documents just for the sake

19 of having documents. If there had been any dispute that he said it,

20 obviously the statement would have to go in. Do you really need it?

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The Defence wanted to tender it

22 because of one word, "a soldier in uniform who interrupted." The question

23 was whether he repeatedly interrupted them or not. So it was that one

24 word. But I believe you're right, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: I may be wrong, but I don't recall you putting to the

1 witness that there was an inconsistency between what he said in his

2 statement about that and what he said in evidence.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, there was no -- there were no

4 inconsistencies between the statement and the testimony. I asked him

5 about that military policeman who came in - I believe it's clear from the

6 transcript - and the answer was that it wasn't said all that categorically

7 as the question implied.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid I'm still not clear. Are you saying now

9 you do not need the document?

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, we shall not need that document.

11 We withdraw our suggestion. Thank you.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

13 Any re-examination, Mr. Smith?

14 MR. SMITH: Just two questions, thank you, Your Honour.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Smith:

16 Q. Mr. Lojo, you said that you moved out of Room 15 in August or

17 September, you think, at the end of August or September. Are you

18 referring to 1992 or 1993?

19 A. From Room 17? Did I hear it well? Or do you mean Room 15?

20 Q. Room 15.

21 A. I think I left that room and went to Room 18 sometime in the

22 middle of September. Not before that, at any rate.

23 Q. And which year are you referring to, 1992 or 1993?

24 A. 1992, of course.

25 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a question here. I have this

2 document and I believe it belongs to the Prosecution, regarding protective

3 witnesses.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Is that the document on which you wrote the names,

5 Mr. Lojo?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is, yes.

7 JUDGE HUNT: If you would hand that to the Prosecution as you

8 leave. You may leave now. Thank you for giving evidence.

9 Now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the next witness requires protective

10 measures.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, and it's image alteration

12 and pseudonym.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. So the blinds have to be brought down to bring

14 him in. I think we'll start tomorrow morning.

15 We'll adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of

18 November, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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