Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1058

1 Thursday, 23 November 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case number IT-97-25-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Now, sir, you are still bound by the solemn

10 declaration that you took on the last occasion that you were here; do you

11 understand that?

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness at

13 all.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid your answer was not heard. I don't think

15 the microphones are -- can he be heard?


17 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. This is a voice distortion case,

18 isn't it? I'm afraid the technicians will have to sort this one out.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Can the interpreters switch to the right channel,

20 please.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The right channel is 7.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Could the witness please say some numbers or words

23 into the microphone, whatever you want to say.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood what you said.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, indeed.

Page 1059












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Page 1060

1 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you are taking your witness in chief.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

6 Q. Good morning, Witness.

7 A. Good morning.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. I'm sorry, I've forgotten. We are

9 in a different courtroom.

10 Mr. Krnojelac, are you able to understand the proceedings in a

11 language that you understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, indeed. Sit down, please, sir.

14 Sorry, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, when we -- when you started your testimony, you mentioned

17 that fighting stopped after a few days in Foca. Do you recall when it

18 stopped, what date it was?

19 A. Well, the attack on Foca started on the 8th of April. That lasted

20 for a few days, four or five days, and then it abated a bit.

21 Q. What did the Muslims do when the fighting stopped?

22 A. They started leaving Foca en masse. There were massive columns of

23 people across the bridge on the Drina River and in the direction of

24 Gorazde, for the most part.

25 Q. What happened to the Muslim houses in Donje Polje during the

Page 1061

1 fighting or after the fighting had stopped?

2 A. Most of the houses started burning, and throughout that time

3 houses were burning, Muslim houses.

4 Q. When you say "started burning," how did they start to burn? Was

5 it during the fighting activities or did they start to burn otherwise?

6 A. Both during combat operations and later, when things abated. They

7 were setting houses on fire.

8 Q. When you say "they," whom do you mean?

9 A. The Serbs.

10 Q. Did you actually see that?

11 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. I saw houses on fire, but I could not

12 say whose house was on fire, which house was on fire exactly, because I

13 didn't dare look back.

14 Q. But how, then, do you know that they were Muslim houses?

15 A. Well, I heard about it from these people in prison later. I heard

16 whose houses had turned down. We talked amongst ourselves.

17 Q. What happened to the 11 mosques in Foca that you mentioned?

18 A. Today there's not a single one left. All of them were either

19 burned down or mined.

20 Q. When the fighting ceased, did the people resume work?

21 A. No, no, they did not. Muslims did not work.

22 Q. And why?

23 A. Well, they didn't dare. They weren't allowed to get into the

24 company where they worked.

25 Q. Were there any general restrictions on movements?

Page 1062












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Page 1063

1 A. There were, out of fear, for the most part.

2 Q. Were there also any official restrictions, like announcements or

3 orders that did allow movements?

4 A. Well, they imposed a curfew in the evening. It would start in the

5 evening and you were not supposed to move about, at least that's what they

6 said on the radio.

7 Q. These restrictions, were they equally directed against all ethnic

8 groups?

9 A. Yes, probably.

10 Q. While you were at home, was it ever searched, your home?

11 A. While I was there, no, while I was in the apartment.

12 Q. Did you have a weapon?

13 A. Yes, I did. I had hunting weapons. I was a member of the hunting

14 association.

15 Q. Did you keep this weapon throughout the war?

16 A. No, no. Until the 15th of April it was at home.

17 Q. Yes. And what happened on the 15th of April?

18 A. On the 15th of April, a police car went through town, providing

19 information as follows: that everybody who had weapons was supposed to

20 bring it out to the plateau in front of the Ribarski Dom, and that all

21 Muslims and Serbs should go out to this plateau, to this square.

22 Q. And did you go there with your weapon?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what happened on this plateau?

25 A. On this plateau there were a couple hundred of men, women, and

Page 1064

1 children. Serbs and Muslims had to get out there. While we were waiting,

2 we saw from the direction of the army building, we saw some soldiers in

3 black uniforms walking down the street, armed with automatic weapons.

4 They were walking towards this group that had gathered in front of this

5 fish restaurant.

6 Q. And what did you do with your weapon, and what happened to the

7 other weapons?

8 A. We all had to put weapons down on the sidewalk; we had to line

9 them up. And when they came, they said, "Whose weapons are these?" and

10 then all of us who had permits said that it was us. And then they divided

11 the Serbs from the Muslims; Serbs on the one side and all the others on

12 the other side. They collected our weapons and returned their weapons to

13 them, I mean those who had brought them out, the Serbs.

14 Q. And when you say "their" and "them," you need to be more

15 specific.

16 A. They told the Serbs to take their weapons and to take them home,

17 but they took ours.

18 Q. Was anyone arrested on this occasion?

19 A. Yes. That's when they started taking some of the Muslims out of

20 that group. They took 15 men; they handcuffed them; they hit them; they

21 put them into some kind of a vehicle, a kombi van; and they took them in a

22 direction unknown to us.

23 Q. Can you tell us the names of some of these 15 men?

24 A. For example, Murat Crneta, Zulfo Veiz, Munib Veiz, Uzeir Aganovic,

25 Adil Krajcin, et cetera.

Page 1065












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Page 1066

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the witness has just mentioned

2 Munib Veiz, that is Schedule C-28; he mentioned Zulfo Veiz, that is C-29;

3 he mentioned Adil Krajcin, that is C-14; and Uzeir Aganovic is also on the

4 list. I forgot to note down. It's also from Schedule C.

5 JUDGE HUNT: He mentioned the other Veiz as well.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I have mentioned. Munib 28 and Zulfo

7 29.

8 A. Yes, Zulfo.

9 Q. Witness, was there a particular reason to single these 15 men

10 out? Could you see a reason why them?

11 A. No, no, I could not. Nobody could understand that, according to

12 which criterion they singled them out.

13 Q. Did you see these men again?

14 A. Yes. I saw them in prison down there. And they told me that they

15 were first taken to the prison Livade, called Solana [phoen], and they

16 beat them there, mistreated them.

17 Q. And when you say "they," who do you mean?

18 A. The Serbs. They beat Munib Veiz there at the plateau when they

19 first took him away and later when they brought him to Livade, and Zulfo

20 Veiz as well.

21 Q. Witness, were you arrested, and when?

22 A. I was arrested on the 23rd of April, 1992.

23 Q. What time of the day did that happen?

24 A. In the morning, around 10.00.

25 Q. And where were you arrested?

Page 1067

1 A. In the apartment.

2 Q. Does that mean at your home?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who arrested you?

5 A. Well, first, some four men in uniform came. Among them I

6 recognised only one. It was a Pipovic from the village of Celebic. He

7 used to go to high school; he was a student of mine. They came banging at

8 the door and asking whose apartment this was. My wife went out and said

9 whose apartment this was. And they asked where I was, and she said that I

10 was in the apartment.

11 I got out and they asked me, "Have you got any weapons?" and I

12 said that I had weapons with a permit and that I handed them over to the

13 so-called Serb military police on the 15th of April. "Have you got more

14 weapons?" they asked me, and I said, "Please search the apartment. If you

15 find any weapons, you kill me." And this Pipovic said that he knew me and

16 that he didn't want to go and search the apartment.

17 And I asked, "Would you like to have a drink?" and they said that

18 I should bring a drink out to them there in the staircase. I brought them

19 drinks, they had a drink, and they left.

20 I watched from the window, from behind the curtain. They got out

21 of the building, all four of them. And in the meantime, from the

22 direction of the army building, a few luxury cars appeared and on them it

23 said "Military Police." They stopped there in front of Ribarsko.

24 Dragan Cosovic, nicknamed Cosa, got out of the first car. Later

25 on I found out is that he was the commander of this military police. And

Page 1068

1 I saw that he called to these four guys who were at my place and said

2 something to them, and then two of them returned later, pointed at my

3 building, and two out of the four returned to my place again. They came

4 to my door and said, "We're sorry, but you have to come with us to give a

5 statement."

6 Q. And where did they take you?

7 A. They took me into a white Golf car in front of the entranceway,

8 and they said that they were taking me to the SUP, to the police, to make

9 a statement. However, when I asked whether I had to get ready, they said,

10 "No, no, you will be coming back immediately. You're just supposed to

11 make a statement and then you'll go straight back home." However, when I

12 got into the car, they did not go to the police at all, they did not go in

13 that direction. They went across the bridge.

14 I kept silent in the car. Then they took me to the KP Dom, to in

15 front of the KP Dom -- to the KP Dom.

16 Q. And how long did you stay at the KP Dom?

17 A. Two and a half years.

18 Q. Did they ever tell you why you were arrested?

19 A. You know the way it was. Everybody who was brought to the KP Dom

20 had to make a statement, some kind of a statement, had to be

21 interrogated. When I was brought, I was put into a room -- am I supposed

22 to tell you about that as well?

23 Q. I would like to know first. Have you ever been charged or

24 convicted?

25 A. No, no.

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Page 1070

1 Q. Let's now move on into the KP Dom. When you arrived, who received

2 you?

3 A. When we arrived in front of the entrance of the KP Dom, one of

4 these guys who was in the car got out and said to the driver - I mean both

5 of them were in camouflage uniforms - he said that I should stay in the

6 car until he went to the administration to see something. He stayed there

7 for about five minutes and then he came back and he ordered me to get out

8 of the car. I got out of the car. There was a group of men there at the

9 entrance in front of the front door. I noticed Cedo Skipin; he was

10 president of the court in Foca. And said -- he addressed me by my name

11 and he said, "How come you're here?" And I said, "Well, they brought me

12 to make some kind of statement." He turned to the other side, and then I

13 was taken through this detector.

14 I had two packs of cigarettes in my pockets, and I passed through

15 this other gate, the metal gate. A guard was there, the former guard of

16 the KP Dom, Veljko Kovac, and he told me to go there to the compound. He

17 opened the door for me and he said that I should report to Slavko Koroman.

18 Yes.

19 Q. Did you report to Mr. Koroman? And what did he tell you?

20 A. Yes, I did. When I got into this compound where these buildings

21 are for prisoners, I looked around. It's a big compound. And over there

22 in front of the dining hall I saw Slavko Koroman because I knew him. And

23 I started walking towards him. However, from both buildings people

24 started coming to the windows because as soon as they'd bring someone in,

25 people would gather around the windows to see who had been brought in. I

Page 1071

1 got lost then.

2 I saw this Koroman. I started walking towards him. He saw me

3 going there and then he started approaching me too, and he said, "How come

4 you're here?" and I said to him, "Well, yes, to make a statement." And he

5 said, "This is no good. This is no good that they've brought you here."

6 Q. Did he tell you why it would not be good to be brought there?

7 A. No, no, nothing. He said, "I have to put you up in a room." "What

8 kind of room?" He stood and looked at me and he said, "The best

9 would be for me to put you into Room 15. It's the sunniest of all."

10 That's the only thing he told me.

11 Q. Room 15, where was it in the building? Do you recall which floor

12 it was?

13 A. The third floor. It was on the third floor, in the first

14 building.

15 Q. When you say "third floor," do you mean the top floor?

16 A. Yes, yes. In that place, it's the highest one of them all.

17 Q. How long did you stay in Room 15?

18 A. I stayed until the autumn, sometime around October, I think.

19 Q. And where were you taken then?

20 A. Then the guard came once and told me to collect my things and to

21 go to this other building, to number 18.

22 Q. And Room 18, on which floor was this room; do you recall?

23 A. Second floor.

24 Q. How long did you stay in number 18?

25 A. I stayed there -- I think I stayed there until the summer 1993.

Page 1072

1 Q. Let me just clarify something. When you say "second floor," do

2 you mean the floor above the ground floor or do you mean the ground floor,

3 first floor --

4 JUDGE HUNT: We've got a bigger problem than that because this

5 building had something called the ground floor and then there was a floor

6 underneath it. It really should not be difficult to sort this one out

7 with a leading question, unless there's some real dispute about it. He's

8 been using what I would call the American system so far, if you count the

9 basement as the basement. But because the building -- how about a

10 photograph?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I'm having this photograph now and want

12 to put it to the witness so that he can show us all the rooms he was in.

13 With the help of -- oh, the usher is gone. It's the photograph

14 7512 of Exhibit 18.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Do you want me to leave it on the ELMO?


17 Q. Would you please look at the upper photo and show us first, where

18 was the Room 15?

19 A. Number 15 was over here, between the first and second building.

20 Over here on the corner. Here.

21 Q. So that means it's not the top floor, it's actually the third

22 floor counting the basement as the first.

23 A. Yes. The third floor, and then up here was the prison clinic, the

24 prison hospital, as it was called, up here.

25 Q. Witness, to clarify it, would you please put the pointer on Room

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Page 1074

1 15 so that we can see which floor you mean.

2 JUDGE HUNT: It's not a very good photograph for that, is it,

3 because it's behind a tree.

4 A. You can't see 15. You can't. It's in the corner here between

5 this other building and this first building. In the corner here, you

6 can't see those windows. It would be here.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, but I think it's clear that

8 he pointed on the second floor above the ground floor. And we don't

9 have -- actually, we don't have a better photo than this one. But I think

10 it's clear.

11 JUDGE HUNT: I understood him to be saying that Room 15 was on the

12 floor below the medical rooms. Now, if I've misunderstood it, perhaps we

13 better sort it out. But he was on -- not the top floor, but the one below

14 the top floor.

15 A. Yes, below. Let me show you here. In the basement was Room 12,

16 and then above it was 14, and above it was 15.


18 Q. Yes, thank you. Would you now point out to us where Room 18 was?

19 A. Over here.

20 Q. Would you please use the same photo, 7512. I think it's easier to

21 show it there.

22 A. It's over here.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The witness is pointing at the first

24 floor above the basement.

25 JUDGE HUNT: No, he's not. It depends on what you call --

Page 1075

1 A. No, no.

2 JUDGE HUNT: To me --

3 A. The basement is here.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, yes. You go ahead, sir.


6 Q. And into which room were you taken after being in Room 18?

7 A. After number 18, we were transferred here, to 16, and then 13. We

8 were then returned to this building again.

9 Q. And Room 16, that's directly below 18; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And the Room 13, you mentioned it's above 11; is that right?

12 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

13 Q. Okay.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We can put the photo away.

15 Q. When you arrived in Room 15, were there already other detainees

16 there?

17 A. Yes. The room was full.

18 Q. How many were there?

19 A. Well, that's a smaller room. Those are the smallest rooms, 14 and

20 15. There were about 40 men there.

21 Q. You say "men." Does that mean there were only male people in this

22 room?

23 A. Yes, and a five-year-old girl.

24 Q. How did the five-year-old girl get there, into KP Dom?

25 A. Well, they captured her father at home. He could not leave her at

Page 1076

1 home so he brought her with him.

2 Q. Was there enough space for these 40 people in the room?

3 A. Well, some of those who happened to be there took the beds;

4 others, on the floor. That's the way it was.

5 Q. What ethnicity did the people have in Room -- in your room?

6 A. All of them were Muslims.

7 Q. You mentioned already the little girl. What age were the people

8 in the room? Who was the eldest, for instance?

9 A. Well, she was five years old, and then up to the age of 70 or 80,

10 there were persons of that age.

11 Q. Did you know these people from before?

12 A. I knew most of them.

13 Q. Were these people civilians?

14 A. All of them were civilians. Civilians only. Not a single one was

15 a -- not a single one was a military man. I mean, nobody wore a uniform.

16 All were brought from their homes.

17 Q. What state of health were these people in? Were there any sick

18 people among you?

19 A. Yes, there were. There were. There were people they brought from

20 hospitals in pyjamas who were lying in hospital beds before that, and they

21 brought them there straight from there. Juso Cebo was a man who had a

22 lung condition and who had spent a long time in hospital, and that's the

23 way they brought him to the KP Dom. There were also mentally disturbed

24 people; there were disabled persons; there were elderly persons.

25 Q. You mentioned already that you could see when you arrived that

Page 1077












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Page 1078

1 there were other people in other rooms. Could you estimate how many

2 detainees were there altogether in the first few months?

3 A. Well, we could only count when we were going to the canteen, and

4 people would stand at the windows and count, although it was forbidden to

5 stand at the window. But people did it somehow and did the counting and

6 then made their calculations on a piece of paper. The number varied; it

7 was never the same. Some people were brought in; other people were taken

8 away. And when we did the calculations, there would be about 800 people.

9 Q. Did you know many of these people?

10 A. I knew a lot of them.

11 Q. And were they civilians, or were soldiers among them or fighters?

12 A. All of them were civilians, except in 1993, they brought one man

13 from Rogoj who had been captured there, and he was in uniform.

14 Q. Were there any women and children detained in the KP Dom?

15 A. Yes, there were, but they kept them there for only a short time.

16 Q. Beside the prisoner rooms you have mentioned, were also detainees

17 kept in other rooms?

18 A. Yes, in solitary cells, the so-called solitaries, as they called

19 them.

20 Q. Could you estimate how many detainees were kept in those isolation

21 cells?

22 A. Those who had been in isolation cells and were later released back

23 to their rooms would tell us that there had been 13 to 15 people in an

24 isolation cell at a time. They couldn't sit down; there was standing room

25 only. And there were people who had spent months in isolation cells.

Page 1079

1 Q. Were you ever taken into an isolation cell yourself?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What kind of detainees were kept in the isolation cells?

4 A. Well, usually when they brought people in just before dark, they

5 would keep them in isolation cells before they -- before taking a

6 statement from them.

7 Q. When you looked out of the window of Room 15, at what did you

8 look? What could you see?

9 A. Well, we could see the administration building where they took us

10 to the so-called interrogations, and we could see those rooms where they

11 took people and where we all had to go to those interrogations. From that

12 room you can see the entrance of the compound to the administration

13 building and the administration building itself.

14 Q. I would like to show you two photos; that is, photo 7477 first,

15 and I would like you to tell us if that was about the view you had.

16 If you look at the bottom photo, would that be the view you had

17 from Room 15, about? About.

18 A. Yes. That was precisely the view we had, and we could see this

19 part as well.

20 Q. When you see the three --

21 A. No, no, sorry. This is the warehouse.

22 Q. Just look at the bottom photo.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Microphone.


25 Q. Please look only at the bottom photo. These three windows that

Page 1080

1 you see on the ground floor next to this metal door, left from the metal

2 door, what kind of rooms were they; do you know? What kind of rooms were

3 they?

4 A. Before the war, those were visitation rooms used for visits to

5 inmates. And later this is where our people, the Muslims, were taken to

6 be interrogated and maltreated.

7 Q. We'll come to this later on. I would like you to look at another

8 photo now, and it's the photo 7472. Please have a look at this photo, and

9 can you tell us if -- from Room 15, could you see the Drina River, or were

10 you below?

11 A. No, we could not see the Drina.

12 Q. Yes, thank you. Witness, are you familiar with the KP Dom? Did

13 you ever visit it before the war?

14 A. Yes, I had been there several times in the administration

15 building, not anywhere else.

16 Q. Have you ever been in the room of the warden?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us where the room of the warden was? Which floor,

19 for instance?

20 A. I think it was the second floor. There is a ground floor, then

21 another floor, and this was on the floor above, the second floor.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

23 show the witness the floor plan 6/3. Can you put it the other way

24 around. Could you turn it. No, it's okay. Sorry.

25 Q. This is supposed to be the second floor. Can you show us the

Page 1081

1 warden's room?

2 A. This is it.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the big room --

4 JUDGE HUNT: The witness is pointing at the room that everybody

5 else has identified as the warden's room. I don't think that this is

6 really in dispute.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The only problem is that we sometimes have

8 witnesses who say they met the warden in a different room.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, yes, that's quite different to "What was the

10 warden's room?" Everybody, I think, has agreed that that is the warden's

11 office, if that is the right word for it.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Okay. Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, were there guards in the KP Dom while you were detained

14 there? And if so, who were they?

15 A. When I was brought there, only the former guards, security people,

16 of the KP Dom worked there.

17 Q. What did they wear and how were they armed?

18 A. In the beginning there was a great diversity - some were in

19 camouflage uniforms; some were in other uniforms; some were in civilian

20 clothes - but later they all wore police uniforms. And as to how they

21 were armed, they had automatic rifles, pistols; some of them carried

22 knives, and all of them had clubs, batons; some of them even had bombs on

23 them.

24 Q. And did you ever see a machine-gun in the KP Dom?

25 A. Yes, I saw a machine-gun on the -- at the window of the

Page 1082

1 administration building.

2 Q. Which part of the administration building, the right wing or the

3 left wing when you look at it from your room, number 15?

4 A. In the left wing.

5 Q. On which floor?

6 A. Second floor.

7 Q. Was the compound mined while you were detained there?

8 A. Yes, the entire compound was mined, and we saw them laying the

9 mines from the windows.

10 Q. When was that done, and who did it?

11 A. That was in May, the mining. I recognised three of the mining

12 squad; that was Miodrag Vracar, who earlier worked in the municipal

13 assembly; Zelimir Troje, who had been a lecturer in a school, in a

14 secondary school; and Bozo Sain, who was a mechanic in an auto repair

15 shop. And there were a couple of other people whom I didn't know.

16 Q. Were they soldiers at that time? Were they wearing uniforms?

17 A. Yes, they were wearing uniforms, soldiers' uniforms.

18 Q. Were only Muslims detained in KP Dom or people of other ethnicity?

19 A. There were others too. We had Croats with us, and in other rooms

20 there were Serbs as well.

21 Q. How many Serbs were detained in the KP Dom, and where were they

22 detained?

23 A. They kept them in building 2, and I don't know how many because I

24 don't know the number. Sometimes there would be a lot of them and

25 sometimes the number would be smaller.

Page 1083

1 Q. Were they kept separate from the Muslims and Croats?

2 A. In the room, yes.

3 Q. Do you know in which room the Serbs were kept, which number this

4 room had?

5 A. While we were in Room 18, they were in Room 21. And there was

6 only a staircase between us.

7 Q. And what kind of persons were these Serb prisoners? Were they

8 convicts or were they normal people?

9 A. There were civilians among them, but most of them were in

10 uniforms.

11 Q. What kind of living conditions did they have? Were you able to

12 tell?

13 A. As for accommodation, I believe their situation was similar to

14 ours, although they had more blankets and they had bed sheets; most of us

15 didn't. They would have more bedding in the winter than we. The food was

16 much better -- their food was much better. Our food was prepared

17 outdoors, in a big cauldron, and we would get our rations in small dishes

18 in which former inmates got their salads, and that was the amount of our

19 rations.

20 Q. How do you know that the Serbs got more -- the Serb prisoners got

21 more than you? Could you see it, or how do you know?

22 A. Well, I could see that. They prepared food for them inside, in

23 the kitchen, and even humanitarian aid would arrive sometimes. They would

24 unload the foodstuffs into the storage room. Below Room 16 there was a

25 big storage room there. Our people, Muslims, would be taken there to

Page 1084

1 unload. And food was prepared for them from the foodstuffs from the

2 humanitarian aid, and we would get cabbage. And everyone lost from 20 to

3 40 kilos in the first couple of months. I lost 31 kilos in that period.

4 I couldn't stand on my feet; I fainted several times.

5 Q. And when you say "we," you mean the detainees, the Muslims and the

6 Croats, and not the Serbs; is that what we have to understand?

7 A. Yes, that's what I mean.

8 Q. What about the conditions in winter? You already mentioned that

9 the Serbs had more blankets. How were the conditions of the other

10 detainees during the winter, especially the first winter?

11 A. It was terrible that first winter because there were no window

12 panes. Most of them were broken. For a long time we were in those rooms.

13 We were not able to get warm. They had taken away our blankets, all but

14 one thin blanket, and the winter was horribly harsh. Nutrition was bad.

15 People had very bad and little clothing. People started to get swellings

16 on their hands and feet that winter. And for awhile people started to cut

17 blankets to make pullovers and sweaters. They would hide them under their

18 sheets and make gloves. The guards found out about that and there was a

19 raid one day. Everyone who was caught having that sort of thing was taken

20 to isolation cells where the conditions were even worse.

21 Q. These conditions, did they --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


24 Q. These conditions, did they affect your health? Besides what you

25 have already mentioned, that is, the loss of weight and the swollen ...

Page 1085












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Page 1086

1 A. Until the war started, I was a very healthy man, I had never been

2 to see a doctor my whole life. But later, due to the fear and horrors

3 that I experienced in that prison, and the conditions, I got very sick.

4 I'm ill most of the time. I go to doctors and hospitals often.

5 Q. What kind of illness did you get?

6 A. Well, I got diabetes; inflammation of nerves in the leg and in my

7 back.

8 Q. While you were in the KP Dom, was medical care available to the

9 detainees?

10 A. Occasionally. A doctor would come from the hospital. People

11 would apply to the guards, but not everyone who applied could get to see

12 the doctor. In the beginning a gynaecologist would come, Cedo Dragovic;

13 and then after him a radiologist, Milovan Dobrilovic; then a general

14 practitioner, Biljana Stankovic; then also Slobodanka Perovic, and so on.

15 Q. Did anyone die due to the conditions in the KP Dom? Do you recall

16 anybody? I mean the living conditions, not the other things.

17 A. Yes. First, a group of people was brought in from Montenegro,

18 from Herceg-Novi where they were captured. Those people had fled from

19 military operations before the war, they had fled to Montenegro, and

20 that's where they were captured and brought a busful of them to the

21 prison.

22 Among them was a young man. His name was Esad Hadzic, whose ulcer

23 burst in his stomach. He had an ulcer perforation; he was in terrible

24 pain when he died. Then I also know that Juso Dzamalija hanged himself in

25 an isolation cell. Sefko Kubat died; Ibraham Sandal died. Omer Kunovac

Page 1087

1 died; he was deaf and mute and they kept beating him. Although he

2 couldn't speak, they wanted him to answer their questions, but he was deaf

3 and mute. I know about that.

4 An old woman died. She was isolated with two children and an

5 elderly man in Room 11, when it had been emptied, and they found them

6 somewhere, this old woman, two children, and a man, from somewhere in the

7 village of Godjeno, and that's where this woman died.

8 Q. You mentioned Esad Hadzic. When did he die?

9 A. He died in June 1993 -- 1992, sorry.

10 Q. And did he request medical help or did anyone request medical help

11 for him when his ulcer burst?

12 A. Yes. People from his room begged the guards to take him somewhere

13 or to give him medicine, but nothing -- nothing ever came of that and he

14 died in the room.

15 Q. You mentioned that woman. When did she die, and of what?

16 A. I don't know why she died, but she was a very old woman. And that

17 first winter, 1992/1993, she was in that huge room without heating. We

18 could see when food was brought to them in those small dishes. And one

19 day she was just wrapped in a blanket, put on a freight vehicle and taken

20 away somewhere.

21 Q. And Sefko Kubat, when did he die, and of what?

22 A. Well, for a long time he suffered from a stomach ulcer. He was a

23 thin man, but he worked the whole time, until he was in such pain that he

24 couldn't work anymore. Then he was taken to a hospital for a surgery, and

25 three or four days later he was brought back in the state in which he was,

Page 1088

1 and he died there.

2 Q. Do you recall when that was?

3 A. I think it was the summer of 1994, around that time. I can't say

4 exactly.

5 Q. And you mentioned Omer Kunovac. Of what did he die?

6 A. Kunovac. From beatings. People that were in the room with him

7 said that he died from the beatings, and he was completely deaf and mute.

8 Q. And when did he die?

9 A. In 1993.

10 Q. And you mentioned Ibrahim Sandal. When did he die, and why?

11 A. When he was brought into the prison, he was unable to stand on his

12 feet. He was black and blue and swollen all over his body. He would --

13 he never wished to talk about where he had been beaten and by whom. He

14 was unable to go to the canteen, although the guards would force him, and

15 he would go on all fours to the canteen; he had to. But he laid the whole

16 time. And one morning they came to wake him up to go to breakfast but he

17 was already dead.

18 Q. Yes, thank you. While detained in these two and a half years,

19 were you always locked in the room or could you also go out for walks in

20 the yard?

21 A. For ten months I couldn't get out of my room, they wouldn't let

22 me. For a full ten months I was able to go only to the canteen and back.

23 Q. Was that only you, or was that the general conditions for all the

24 detainees?

25 A. Some were taken out to work; some were in the labour platoon. But

Page 1089












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Page 1090

1 most of us were not allowed out of the room.

2 Q. Did you have family visits while you were detained?

3 A. Yes. Two or three times my wife came. By mid-May, that is when

4 visits were forbidden. In mid-May, all visits were forbidden.

5 Q. When your wife visited you, did she need to have permission? And

6 if so, where did she get it?

7 A. No, she didn't need a permit. It depended on the guards, whether

8 they would let her in and whether they would call me so we could see each

9 other. Mostly they would come to the gate. They would ask, they would

10 plead, they would ask whether they could see us. If someone would let

11 them in, then we could see each other.

12 Q. Do you know who made this decision? Was it just the guard?

13 A. I don't know that. It could have been the guard; it could have

14 been someone else. I'm not sure.

15 Q. Did you get letters from your family in these two and a half

16 years?

17 A. After a year and a half -- I mean during the first year and a

18 half, I did not know at all where my wife and children were, where my

19 mother was.

20 Q. What effect did that have on you?

21 A. Well, for most of us, had it not been for the iron bars on the

22 windows, half of us would have jumped out of the window. It killed us

23 psychologically.

24 Q. Were you beaten at KP Dom?

25 A. No, no, never.

Page 1091

1 Q. Did you see other detainees being beaten?

2 A. Yes, yes, I saw that. I saw that. In the room, two or three

3 times they would beat these detained persons, and in the rooms downstairs

4 in particular.

5 Q. Let me clarify. Do you mean in Room 15 itself?

6 A. Yes. I saw it there too.

7 Q. When did this happen? Do you recall when you saw detainees being

8 beaten in your room?

9 A. These were not any big beatings in the room. Usually they were

10 taken to the administration, into the solitary confinement cells; that's

11 where they did the big beatings. This was just beating in passing. If

12 somebody asked a guard something, then he'd hit him twice or three times

13 and then he'd go out and say, "No more talking."

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)? Is my house still there?" And then he beat him up.

17 Then Halim Corovic, an elderly man, was beaten, and then Ekrem Zekovic.

18 That's what I saw in the room.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the witness just mentioned the

20 beating of Smajo Bacvic, and it's Schedule A-1.

21 Q. Who else was beaten in your room? We're speaking now first about

22 beatings in your room. Was there anybody else?

23 A. Yes. Not in the room. Not in the room.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

Page 1092

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness just said

2 that there weren't any beatings but that these were just -- these were

3 just people who were sort of hit in passing, and the Prosecutor keeps

4 asking about beatings. And I think that the witness distinguished between

5 this.

6 JUDGE HUNT: The witness said there were not any big beatings in

7 the room, and he also said that there were just beatings in passing. I

8 don't see the problem of calling them beatings. We know what he means,

9 and the description of them will probably bear out that limitation. But

10 there's nothing wrong with the question.

11 You proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


13 Q. Do you recall any other particular incidents of beating of this --

14 let's call it lighter beating, in the room, in the prisoners' quarters?

15 A. I mentioned this Halim Corovic. He was also beaten up there in

16 the room. Then Ekrem Zekovic was beaten in the compound when we were

17 going out for lunch. Predrag Stefanovic beat him in front of all of us.

18 Q. Do you recall Halim Corovic - that's the incident Schedule A,

19 number 4 - do you recall who beat Halim?

20 A. I cannot recall now.

21 Q. Was a certain Muharem Cosovic in your room?

22 A. Yes, yes, in number 15.

23 Q. And did anything happen to him?

24 A. He was taken out of the room and beaten twice while his little

25 girl stayed with us in the room.

Page 1093

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is the incident, Schedule A, number 2.

2 Q. And do you recall when this occurred?

3 A. Well, it could have been the month of May 1992.

4 Q. And you said that that did not only happen in your room but also

5 in other rooms. How do you know that?

6 A. Well, I know because later people were mixed. I mean, they were

7 being transferred from one room to another and everybody talked about what

8 they had seen in their previous room, and the other people talked about

9 what they had seen in their rooms previously, and that's the way it was.

10 Q. You have already mentioned the big beatings, what you call the big

11 beatings. Can you describe what that was?

12 A. These guards, usually two of them or one of them would come into

13 the room and then we would watch them. As they would come from the gate,

14 when the metal gate would open, we would watch them, wondering what

15 building they would go to, because we were in great fear. When he'd enter

16 the building, he'd usually have a small list in his hands, and then we

17 kept watching, and every room was in anticipation, wondering which

18 building he is going to go into, which room. Let's say he first went into

19 number 12 or number 14 or number 13, and then he went from one room to

20 the another and called out persons' names. The main thing was that he'd

21 have a list of these people whose names he'd call out. Then people would

22 follow him. He'd lock up the room and then he'd take these people to the

23 gate. We would watch them and we would see them standing in front of the

24 gate. And then usually he would bring two or three into the

25 administration building and the others would remain in front of the gate,

Page 1094












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1095

1 waiting.

2 Soon after that, it would get noisy in these rooms, in these

3 visitation rooms. There weren't any glass panes on the windows. Whoever

4 had the courage to listen could hear what was going on; however, most of

5 us put pillows on our ears so we couldn't hear these cries and moans

6 and screams. Few people were returned to rooms after these tortures; most

7 were not returned.

8 Q. When you say "he," do you mean a particular guard who took the

9 detainees out all the time, or is "he" just meant for many guards?

10 A. They worked in shifts. It depended on the day who was on which

11 shift, and then that person would take people out. Whereas the others --

12 I mean, there were people there whom we noticed really took this out on

13 people. They behaved as if they could hardly wait to take them out to be

14 beaten. They would walk through the compound, you know, with their batons

15 like this. They would whistle and they would take people away that way.

16 They would carry these wooden legs of chairs, cables, all sorts of

17 things.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Can we have some description of what he was doing?

19 It was very difficult to see.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The witness was moving his hand as if

21 he had a baton in the hand and as if he --

22 A. Yes. I said, you know a baton -- for example, when they would

23 take a group out for this interrogation, then usually from the other

24 building or from the factory or from the dining hall where they were, then

25 these guards would probably -- most often withdraw and go towards the

Page 1096

1 administration building. And then I would say that -- then as I said, for

2 example, Milenko Burilo, who did horrible things there, he would usually

3 carry a wooden leg of a chair, and there was a leather band on it and he

4 would put it around his wrist, and then he would go to the administration

5 building and then all hell would break loose in those premises where they

6 took the people. There were some guards who really took it out on people,

7 and we had the impression that they could hardly wait to beat someone and

8 to beat someone up over there.

9 Q. Witness, you mentioned already the guard Milenko Burilo. Can you

10 tell us names of other guards who behaved in such a manner?

11 A. I can. As far as I could see, as far as we could see, Dragomir

12 Obrenovic was among them, Vlatko Pljevaljcic, Vitomir Micevic, Jovo Savic,

13 Predrag Stefanovic, Zoran Matovic, Radovan Vukovic, et cetera.

14 Q. At what time of the day were detainees taken out in this manner?

15 A. Usually in the afternoon, and it would last until the evening,

16 until 9.00 or 10.00.

17 Q. I know it's difficult to remember after such a long time, but are

18 you able to say at what hour in the afternoon?

19 A. Well, it depends. When we would hear a vehicle that had a

20 characteristic sound, it was a smallish kombi van, when it would arrive in

21 front of the administration building - and there was probably something

22 wrong with the exhaust pipe and they did this on purpose, they did it on

23 purpose - when we would hear this, then we would know that the beatings

24 and the severe beatings would start. And they always threatened us with

25 some kind of military police. If somebody would not admit something,

Page 1097

1 confess something that they were charging him with, then they would

2 threaten him with the military police, saying that if this person would

3 not confess, they would call in the military police, and that it would not

4 go well after that.

5 Q. Witness, but do you recall, was it in the early afternoon or late

6 afternoon that this happened?

7 A. Well, it depends. Sometimes earlier; sometimes later. It wasn't

8 specific.

9 Q. And you mentioned the list -- the guard had a list. Can you

10 describe the list, what it was, what it looked like?

11 A. Well, it was just a little piece of paper with people's names on

12 it. We could not walk up to him to see what it said there. We saw that

13 he had a piece of paper in his hands and that he was reading names from

14 it.

15 Q. You mentioned that you could hear these horrible noises from the

16 visitors' rooms, which you have previously pointed out to us. Could you

17 hear anything particular? So that you could, for instance, hear who was

18 being beaten or who was beating?

19 A. We could not come to such conclusions who was doing the beating,

20 who was beating these men. There was commotion, general commotion, and

21 there were cries, there were screams. You could not recognise voices.

22 Q. Could you hear anything that let you conclude who was being beaten

23 at that time?

24 A. We only heard once when they took Zulfo Veiz out, who had been a

25 policeman before the war in the city police, the town police, and we only

Page 1098

1 heard them say to him, "Well, Veiz, tell us now how many Serbs had you

2 beaten?" And we didn't understand anything after that. That's when they

3 started beating him. We could not discern anything else, because several

4 people were hitting him and the others. It wasn't that it was one man or

5 two.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the witness is referring to

7 Zulfo Veiz who is mentioned under C-29 [sic], Schedule C, and he's also

8 mentioned in the count of the indictment -- in the incident, 5.27.

9 Q. Witness, Zulfo Veiz, was he taken out only once or several times?

10 A. Several times. He was taken to the administration building

11 several times. And there was nothing noticeable on him, that he had been

12 beaten, until the last time when he didn't return after that. The first

13 few times he was taken out in the evening hours, in the afternoon hours.

14 Allegedly he said that some of his colleagues, his former colleagues,

15 Serbs, came to see him, and once he even mentioned some kind of exchange,

16 that he would be exchanged for some policeman in Gorazde and that he did

17 not want to accept that. Later they took him out, they started beating

18 him, and he never returned.

19 Q. Was he in Room 15, Zulfo Veiz?

20 A. Yes, he was. Yes, he was.

21 Q. You said that you could not see injuries on him when he returned

22 these several times. Did he tell you that he was beaten?

23 A. No, he never said that. It would have been obvious on him. He

24 said that they did not beat him then.

25 Q. And this last time, do you recall when you saw him for the last

Page 1099

1 time being led away and when you heard someone speaking to him?

2 A. I remember that. How could I not remember?

3 Q. No. I mean when. Do you know when that was, that last time when

4 he did not return?

5 A. Well, it was June 1992. I'm not that sure about the date.

6 Perhaps I'll make a mistake, but I can't -- I mean, July or August, but

7 it's July most probably. I can't be very accurate about this.

8 Q. These big beatings, did they last -- how long did they last

9 altogether? Over what period of time did they occur?

10 A. Well, that lasted from May 1992 until October, these severe

11 beatings and these exchanges of sorts. That is when most people were

12 victims, in that period.

13 Q. Was there any peak in this time period? Was there ever any

14 particular time when this occurred the most? Do you recall anything?

15 Maybe a month.

16 A. Well, for example, this Vidovdan, on the 28th of June, that is

17 when a large group was taken away. Then in September they were taken to

18 pick plums allegedly. Then also this big exchange on the 30th of August,

19 when they told us that there would be an exchange, when they separated

20 people from the bus and half of them went missing. Things like that.

21 Q. Witness, let's first stick with the beatings, and we'll come to

22 the exchanges later.

23 You said Vidovdan, the 28th of June, that was a particular day.

24 What did you see on this day? How many people were led away, and to which

25 part?

Page 1100

1 A. People's names were read out. They always brought some kind of

2 lists from which they would read people's names and surnames. And then

3 they would say to them, "Get your things ready, whatever you have, and get

4 out of the room." For example, from Room 15, they would take out five

5 people; from another room they would take ten people out. That's the way

6 it was done.

7 Q. Did you ever hear shots in relation to beatings?

8 A. Yes, yes, we heard them. When they took Zulfo Veiz and Kemal

9 Dzelilovic, Fuad Mandzo, people like that. Some people even listened in

10 the late evening hours, during the night, and they said that they heard

11 bodies dropping into the river. However, most people hid away, trying not

12 to hear this. We were never sure who would be next.

13 Q. Witness, I had asked you if you ever heard shots and you said yes

14 to this question. Did you --

15 A. Yes, we did.

16 Q. And did you ever -- do you recall how often you heard shots in

17 relation to beatings?

18 A. It wasn't often that one would hear shots.

19 Q. And you have already mentioned -- on one occasion you mentioned

20 Zulfo Veiz and Kemal Dzelilovic. That's the person on Schedule C, number

21 7. Do you recall who else was taken together with these two? Do you

22 recall anybody else?

23 A. Fuad Mandzo, the two Rikalo brothers, Mato Ivancic. I can't

24 remember it all now.

25 Q. But does that relate to the shots you heard?

Page 1101

1 A. We heard the shots when they took Munib Veiz out. Not Zulfo,

2 Munib. Who else was there? At any rate, five or six men were taken out,

3 they were beaten up, and later shots were heard.

4 Q. Munib Veiz, that's C-28 and B-29; and Fuad Mandzo is C-16.

5 After you heard the shots, do you recall anything else?

6 A. Well, that is when some people heard these thumps against the

7 water. It sounded as if they had been thrown from the bridge into the

8 Drina River.

9 Q. Do you recall who else was taken out from your room in this

10 manner?

11 A. From Room 15, that is the room from which the least number of

12 people was taken out compared to other rooms. However, Krajcin was taken

13 out. Before the war he was head of finance in the mine. Then --

14 Q. That's C-14.

15 A. -- Murat Crneta was taken out; he was director of a factory. A

16 boy from Gorazde was taken out, Said Kunduklija. A man from Srebrenica

17 was taken out who was arrested in Montenegro; he was temporarily working

18 in Montenegro. And there was this group of men from Srebrenica that was

19 brought in, and from amongst them, one of them was assigned to Room 15.

20 Things like that.

21 Q. Was Halim Konjo in your room, number 15?

22 A. No, he was not. He was in number 12.

23 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

24 A. He was also taken out. Allegedly he was killed immediately, on

25 the spot, when he was being severely beaten. We heard his cries, and he

Page 1102

1 never returned.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Halim Konjo, that is B-33 and C-13.

3 Q. Was Halim Konjo taken out only once and never returned, or did you

4 see him --

5 A. Yes. Yes, once. Once, once, I saw it once.

6 Q. Was Nurko Nisic in your room?

7 A. No. He was in number 12, in number 12, Room 12.

8 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

9 A. He was taken out several times and beaten, severely beaten. He

10 could not even turn around at all. He and Mustafa Kuloglija, a teacher,

11 they were beaten several times. Aziz Sahinovic as well. They never

12 returned again.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Nurko Nisic, that is the incident 5.27 and

14 C-19.

15 Q. Did you see Nurko Nisic return and did see what injuries he had,

16 or did you only hear about it?

17 A. We saw him from the window when they were returning him. He was

18 all swollen. He could hardly walk into the building from the gate. It

19 was hard for him to move. He was all beaten up. Later on they took him

20 out for this severe beating again and he was never returned.

21 Q. You mentioned Mr. Sahinovic, did you see him --

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's actually the incident 5.29, Your

23 Honours.

24 Q. Did you see him return, and did you see any injuries on him?

25 A. Yes. He returned once and he was all beaten up then. And then he

Page 1103

1 was taken out again, because before the war he worked in a bank called

2 Privredna Banka. He was an official in charge of some kind of foreign

3 exchange transactions. And he told us that they had accused him of having

4 taken some foreign currency. He said to us that he could not take it

5 because it was down there in the safes. And then the third time -- I

6 mean, the second time they took him over there to the bank, to where he

7 had worked before. Then the third time, in the evening, sometime in the

8 evening, they took him, sometime after 10.00 they called out his name, and

9 he never returned either.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, it's 11.00.

11 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn until 11.30.

12 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have found a mistake in the

15 transcript, and I probably misspoke. It's on page 3425 of the LiveNote,

16 and in relation to Munib Veiz, the incident in the Schedule is B-59 and

17 not B-29. That was a mistake.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


20 Q. Witness, you have already mentioned Mr. Kuloglija. That's in

21 Schedule C-15. What happened to Mr. Kuloglija? What do you know about

22 it?

23 A. I knew him for many years before the war. He was a teacher in a

24 primary school called Ivanko [phoen]. And he was said to have had a fight

25 with a Serb in the tavern before the war and the story circulated in the

Page 1104

1 town. He was then imprisoned in KP Dom, and he was taken out several

2 times and beaten. He came, beaten up, back to the room twice, and the

3 third time they took him away to another beating and he never returned.

4 Q. And you also mentioned Fuad Mandzo - that is number C-16 - what

5 happened to Mr. Fuad Mandzo?

6 A. He was in Room 14. This is a young man who was allegedly captured

7 in a village above the hospital. He was brought in, and I heard people

8 say he was accused of being a member of the SDA party, the Democratic

9 Action party, that he stood guard in the village of Donje Polje, where he

10 lived; that he protected SDA leaders. He stood guard; he was their

11 security, that is. They also beat him up and he never returned.

12 They took him away once and he never returned after that.

13 Q. Do you know if anything happened to another Mandzo in the KP Dom?

14 A. Yes. Emir Mandzo, he was on the medical staff in the hospital.

15 He was said to have been beaten up by mistake, they mistook him for

16 another Mandzo. They also took out Salko Mandzo also by mistake. They

17 told him it was a mistake, because the guard who came to pick him up, to

18 call out Fuad Mandzo, he just said, "Mandzo," and took out Emir Mandzo.

19 Salko Mandzo was also taken out by mistake, and only after that, the third

20 time, they specified it was Fuad Mandzo and took out, indeed, Fuad Mandzo,

21 who never returned after that.

22 Q. This Emir Mandzo you mentioned - that is actually B-36 and B-37 -

23 was he in your room?

24 A. Emir?

25 Q. Emir, yes.

Page 1105

1 A. No. He was in Room 16. After the beating they threw him outside

2 to the asphalt. They couldn't -- he couldn't stand on his feet because

3 they beat him on his soles as well. They just threw him out through the

4 gates. He fell down on the asphalt, and then he was later picked up and

5 taken to another building, to Room 16.

6 Q. And this Salko Mandzo - that's actually the incident 5.28 of the

7 indictment - was he in your room?

8 A. No. He was in Room 12. And when he returned after that mistake,

9 when he got beaten by mistake, we saw that he was bleeding below his eye.

10 We looked from the window. There was blood trickling from below his eye.

11 They told us that they had put a knife there, saying that they would gouge

12 out his eye. And he was also beaten up by mistake; he was beaten instead

13 of Fuad.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to show the witness now

15 Schedule C, that is, Exhibit 55.

16 Q. Witness, we have already discussed some of the people on this

17 list. I would like now to talk about particular persons on the list.

18 Do you know the person number 1, Alija Altoka?

19 A. No, I didn't know him.

20 Q. And the person number 3 -- we have already spoken about Bico

21 Salem. The person number 3, Abdurahman Cankusic, do you know this person?

22 A. I knew him. He used to work in a company called Hidrogradnja.

23 Q. Did you see him in KP Dom?

24 A. Yes, yes, I did see him there.

25 Q. When did you see him and when did you stop seeing him?

Page 1106

1 A. I saw him from the beginning until sometime in July or August.

2 I'm not sure about the month, but it was one of those two months. And

3 then he was taken away. And his brother Refik was taken away as well.

4 Q. Were they taken for beatings? Was that such an incident when you

5 heard beatings afterwards?

6 A. You mean for the two of them?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. The two of them were just taken away that day, beaten up, and they

9 never returned to the compound. And their father was also imprisoned in

10 Room 14 and listened all the time while they were being beaten.

11 Q. And now the person number 5, Enko Cedic, also referred to as

12 Ekinda.

13 A. He was in Room 11, I think, or perhaps 13. He too was taken out

14 repeatedly for beatings, and once they -- once they took him, never to

15 take him back.

16 Q. Witness, you have already mentioned Juso Dzamalija, and you said

17 that he committed suicide. Can you tell us when this happened and what

18 happened to him before he did that?

19 A. He was shop assistant in a shop before the war, and his son, Ahmo,

20 was deputy chief of police in Foca. And his son left Foca in those first

21 days and the father was beaten because of the son, allegedly. And he was

22 so badly beaten up, although I didn't see him myself, but I heard that he

23 was so badly beaten up that during the night, that was in the beginning of

24 May, I think, he hanged himself. And this nurse who was in my room, 18, I

25 think it was at that time, this Gojko Jankovic, he told me in prison that

Page 1107

1 he was summoned to take him -- to take him down in the isolation cell

2 where he had hanged himself.

3 Q. And number 8, Ramo Dzendusic, what can you tell us about him?

4 A. I knew him personally because he worked in the National Defence

5 Secretariat until he was retired. I don't know where he was captured. He

6 was kept in Room 16. We saw him being taken out and we heard him being

7 beaten, but he never returned. And there is no trace of him.

8 Q. And number 9, Adil Granov.

9 A. Yes. That was an electrical engineer, a youngish man, who was

10 also taken away one day and never returned. I didn't hear him being

11 beaten; we could not make that out. But the main thing is he never

12 returned and there is no trace of him, no word of him.

13 Q. And number 10, Nail Hodzic.

14 A. He was a driver in the electrical company, an elderly man. But he

15 was a member of the SDA, probably, and he was active during the

16 establishment of the party. He too was taken out, and we heard him being

17 beaten.

18 Q. And the next person, Mate Ivancic.

19 A. That was a Croat who was employed in the hospital as a medical

20 technician. He was brought from his workplace in the hospital. They took

21 him out. We didn't hear them beat him.

22 Q. And number 12, Esad Kiselica.

23 A. That was a man who worked in the electrical company, an

24 electrician, a sick man, youngish. He too was beaten and he never

25 returned.

Page 1108

1 Q. Now we can move on to number 17, Krunoslav Marinovic.

2 A. Yes. Also a Croat from Foca who had a private television repair

3 shop. He too was beaten. And during his arrest - I heard he was in Room

4 11 - I heard that before he was taken to prison, they broke his jaw so he

5 couldn't go out to eat. And I didn't hear about any other beating. But

6 in any case, he was taken away, never to return.

7 Q. And number 18, Omer Mujezinovic.

8 A. I don't know him.

9 Q. And number 20, Hamid Ramovic.

10 A. Yes. He was a farmer from Celebici whose brother was the first

11 victim in Foca, a policeman, Abid Ramovic, who was killed on the 7th of

12 April in Foca.

13 Q. What happened to Mr. Hamid Ramovic?

14 A. He too was repeatedly taken out, and we could hear him being

15 beaten.

16 Q. And did he disappear as the others?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the following three are all with the last name Rikalo. Can

19 you tell us something about them?

20 A. I didn't know them personally. But they were in Room 11, and they

21 were beaten on two occasions. After being taken out for the second time,

22 they never returned.

23 Q. All three of them?

24 A. Yes. None of them returned.

25 Q. And number 24, Seval Soro.

Page 1109

1 A. I don't know him.

2 Q. And 25, Kemal Tulek.

3 A. Before the war, he was a policeman in KP Dom. He was imprisoned

4 and taken away, but I don't know about beatings. His brother, Ekrem,

5 though, spent four or five months in an isolation cell and was transferred

6 to Room 15, and even his next-door neighbours couldn't recognise him.

7 Q. And number 26, Enes Uzunovic.

8 A. That was a fine young man, a medical technician, a youth activist

9 before this, president of the youth association in Foca. They beat him

10 several times. They kept him below the staircase in an isolation cell.

11 He was isolated down there, below. They didn't keep him in rooms with

12 other prisoners. And we heard him being badly beaten down there. We

13 heard his cries. He was taken away later, I didn't see when, but he is

14 missing. But he was beaten and abused several times.

15 Q. You said that he was kept in an isolation cell under the

16 staircase. Where was he -- what isolation cell in which building?

17 A. Building 1. Right after the entrance there is a staircase leading

18 to the first floor. An isolation cell was built there with four cots. I

19 peeped in once when there was no one around at a later stage. They kept

20 him there for the whole time before they took him away. They kept him

21 together with another man, Kemal Krkalic [phoen]. They kept them there

22 for a long time before taking them away.

23 Q. Witness, to clarify, when you say building 1, I rather would like

24 to show you now the floor plan 6/2, to point out where this isolation

25 cell was. First of all, was it on the ground floor or on a higher floor?

Page 1110

1 A. On the ground floor. Here you see the entrance to that building.

2 This is the entry room, this is Room 12, then 11. Then the staircase

3 leads to the first floor from here. Below the staircase, there is a

4 landing here from which you go diagonally, and here on the ground was the

5 isolation cell.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, the witness is pointing at a

7 spot where the staircase is indicated on this sketch, between the Rooms 12

8 and 11.

9 A. Yes. Here below the staircase.

10 Q. And the person number 27, Dzemal Vahida, if you look, please,

11 again on the list. Can you tell us something about Dzemal Vahida?

12 A. Dzemal Vahida, before the war, used to be a policeman in the town

13 police. We saw him being brought to the gate, and while other people were

14 being beaten, he stood at the gates waiting for his turn. And when he was

15 brought inside, he never returned. I knew him as well.

16 Q. Witness, from all these people on Schedule C that you have

17 mentioned and that you said they disappeared, did you ever hear anything

18 about them or that their bodies were found?

19 A. No, never.

20 Q. This -- you have mentioned at an earlier stage of your testimony

21 that you heard these screams coming from the visitors' rooms in the

22 administration building. Did you also hear such noises from other parts

23 of the administration building?

24 A. Yes. From the new wing, the so-called new wing of the

25 administration building, where, before the war, there used to be

Page 1111

1 rehabilitation officers' rooms. They also beat and abused people there.

2 Opposite Rooms 11 and 13, that's where these rooms are.

3 Q. This pattern of taking people out for beatings, how did this

4 affect you and the other detainees?

5 A. Well, that was insufferable to listen to. Only some people could

6 stand to stay by the windows and listen, while most of us hid deeper

7 inside the room, covered our ears with blankets. That was really

8 insufferable. Few people could stand being by the window the whole time

9 and listening.

10 Q. Did you fear to be taken as well for beatings?

11 A. Yes, the whole time.

12 Q. Were you interrogated while in the prison?

13 A. Yes, at my own request. Because I had spent there ten days

14 without being called to be questioned, and until I heard that those who

15 did not make statements would not be allowed any visits, I kept quiet.

16 But when I heard that, I started thinking and I realised I had been there

17 for ten days without being called to give a statement.

18 And once when I was standing there I heard -- I saw the warden

19 come out into the compound. I stepped out and asked the warden why they

20 had brought me in and were not calling me to be interrogated, and I heard

21 that visits would not be allowed to such people, and he answered, "We'll

22 see."

23 After that we were taken back from the canteen to our rooms, and

24 half an hour later, a guard came to pick me up and took me to the

25 administration building to give a statement.

Page 1112

1 Q. When you say "the warden," who was the warden?

2 A. Well, Milorad Krnojelac.

3 Q. And how did you know that at that time, when you approached him?

4 A. I knew. Everybody said when we would address the guards on some

5 issue, asking for some sort of assistance, of course we didn't dare

6 address all of them, but there were among them people whom we did dare to

7 approach and they would reply that they couldn't decide without the

8 warden. It was known that he was the warden. Everybody knew that.

9 Q. When you approached him and talked to him, did you address him as

10 Mr. Warden or did you address him with his name; do you recall?

11 A. No. I stepped out of the line, I approached him, and I told him,

12 "Mico, what's this all about? Why is nobody calling me?" I addressed

13 him by his name.

14 Q. Did he tell you why you were in the prison?

15 A. No, he didn't.

16 Q. Without giving any names now, were you the only person who

17 approached Mr. Krnojelac on this occasion?

18 A. On that occasion I was the only one who approached him. I don't

19 know about people from other rooms. But on that occasion I stepped out of

20 the line and approached him, because he wasn't very far away from us,

21 perhaps 4 or 5 metres. He was passing by. In fact, he was standing there

22 by a tree within the compound.

23 Q. Was he alone on this occasion?

24 A. No. There was his son there as well and a guard. I don't

25 remember which guard. But his son was there. And I approached him on

Page 1113

1 another occasion, because my mother and brother lived in Donje Polje and I

2 lived in the centre of town, and before, while I was at home, my telephone

3 was disconnected and I didn't know what was happening with my mother.

4 She's completely unable to move and almost blind.

5 So on that occasion when I saw the warden standing there, I

6 approached him and I asked him to allow me to go out and see if my mother

7 was still alive, because I didn't know what was happening in Donje Polje.

8 All the houses were burning or burnt down. I didn't know whether my

9 mother's house was still standing. And he told me to go to lunch and he

10 would see, that's what he said.

11 And later Slavko Koroman came to my room, Room 15, and asked me

12 out. So I went out and his -- that is, Milorad's son was in the car, in a

13 camouflage uniform, while Koroman was in civilian clothes. The two of

14 them drove me to my house where my mother and brother were; however, I

15 didn't find my mother there because she had been taken to hospital. I

16 found my brother at the neighbour's; he didn't dare stay in the house

17 alone. He told me that nobody came for him, that my mother had been taken

18 to the hospital. And both times I had asked to visit my home he made it

19 possible for me.

20 Q. This time when you approached him to get information about your

21 mother, when was that? Was it after your first approach to Mr. Krnojelac?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us when, when that was?

24 A. All of this happened in May, in early May, because I was taken

25 away on the 23rd of April. We still had visits at that time, so it was

Page 1114

1 the first half of May, because on the 15th of May, they banned all visits.

2 Q. And you said -- how often altogether did you approach

3 Mr. Krnojelac, two times or three times?

4 A. Only those two times. And later when I was transferred to work in

5 the furniture factory, he would come with some delegations who toured this

6 factory and we would just say hello when he passed by. No more than

7 that. You couldn't call that a meeting. I just saw him.

8 Q. You mentioned that his son was with him. Which son? The son

9 Bozidar that you have already mentioned, or another one?

10 A. I think it was Bozidar. I really don't know their names, but I

11 think that was the one.

12 Q. And what kind of a function did he have in the prison?

13 A. Well, the guards said he was his personal security, but I don't

14 know about that. In any case, he was wearing a camouflage uniform and

15 carrying an automatic rifle. He was very strongly built. I don't know

16 his real name.

17 Q. You said, "He was his personal security." Whose personal

18 security?

19 A. Of the warden.

20 Q. When you were interrogated, where did that take place, and who

21 questioned you?

22 A. After I addressed the warden of the prison, a guard came and

23 called my name out, as well as the names of two other persons from the

24 room next door. So it was three of us who were brought to the gate.

25 We entered the administrative building, and that is where these

Page 1115

1 inspectors were, these inspectors who were in charge of these

2 interrogations: That was Zoran Vladicic, Vojislav Starovic, Miodrag

3 Koprivica, and Petko Gasevic. They interrogated all these men who had

4 been in prison.

5 When the three of us were brought into this administration

6 building, Zoran Vladicic, a former investigator in the criminal police in

7 SUP before the war, he said to me at the door, "Where is your Boro

8 Kujundzic?" I was friends with this chief of police before; we visited

9 each other at home even. And I said, "How should I know?" and he

10 said, "You'll know. You'll know." And he cursed my mother, this Zoran

11 Vladicic did.

12 However, Miodrag Koprivica said to me, "You come with me," and he

13 took me through the hall of this administration building to a door. There

14 was a door where it said "Accounting." He took me in this room. Since I

15 knew him personally, I asked him, "What's this all about, Miso?" and he

16 said, "See what's happened?" I sat there.

17 He ordered me a cup of coffee and he let me light up a cigarette,

18 and he asked me sort of where I was those days until I was brought in,

19 from when the attack on Foca started until I was brought to prison, so

20 that I would tell him where I was during those days. I told him about

21 this a bit, and he typed this out on a typewriter. It was half a page or

22 a page. He let me read this text and I signed it in four copies. I read

23 it; I signed it. It was nothing terrible. I mean, he wrote it the way I

24 said it, where I was during those days. I signed it. He didn't give me a

25 single copy. They didn't give copies to anyone; they left all of them

Page 1116

1 there.

2 Q. And were you accused of anything particular?

3 A. Yes. He said to me that there was a report against me, and I

4 said, "What kind of report?" and he said that it said that I was shooting

5 from the court building. Since the building was near my building, I mean

6 this court was, it was as if I was shooting from there, and Zulfer Pjano,

7 the public prosecutor from that building - Zulfer Pjano was the name of

8 this public prosecutor - that he and I were shooting from the court

9 building at other buildings. And that public prosecutor had escaped to

10 Gorazde even before that. Throughout the war he was in Gorazde; he was

11 not there at all.

12 And I said, "Miso, how could I shoot? How could I be in the court

13 building?" and he said, "Zufer and you." Zufer I knew was in Gorazde.

14 (redacted). I know that he escaped with his wife and his child to

15 Gorazde. And he said, "Well, all right. Of course, I doubt that you did

16 it too," and that was not even recorded in this statement of mine. I

17 signed this statement in four copies, and he kept all four copies and sent

18 me back to the room, Room 15, that is.

19 Q. While you were interrogated, were other detainees interrogated in

20 adjacent rooms?

21 A. Yes, yes, these two who were brought with me. One was

22 interrogated by Vladicic, I guess, and the other one, by Starovic. The

23 one who was interrogated by Vladicic was the Halim Corovic I mentioned,

24 this elderly man. I heard him moaning that Vladicic had beaten him. I

25 heard these moans and cries from the next-door office.

Page 1117

1 Q. And what about the third man? Was he mistreated?

2 A. I don't know the third one. I don't know who the third one was.

3 I don't know. He was brought from another room. Out of this fear, I

4 couldn't ...

5 Q. But did you hear anything in relation to this third person? What

6 happened to him? Was he mistreated, or didn't you hear?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. These policemen who interrogated you and the other two, were

9 they -- how were they dressed?

10 A. Civilian clothes. They wore civilian clothes.

11 Q. You mentioned that Ekrem Zekovic was beaten in the yard on one

12 occasion. Did you ever see anyone else being beaten in the yard?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. Did you ever see detainees being beaten on the way or in -- on the

15 way to the canteen or in the canteen?

16 A. I heard that, that they were beaten. But from Room 15, we could

17 not see, because a group barged in. And another room was out for lunch,

18 and then as they were coming back from lunch, this group barged in and

19 then they started beating them as they were passing by them. But I didn't

20 see this.

21 Q. Did you see the group that barged in?

22 A. No, I did not.

23 Q. You have already mentioned that detainees were exchanged. Were

24 these detainees seen afterwards again or are they missing?

25 A. Most people who were taken for these so-called exchanges went

Page 1118












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Page 1119

1 missing. I know that because they did not reappear in the compound, and

2 until the present day, there's been no trace of them. I also see in the

3 papers that their families are still looking for them, until the present

4 day.

5 Q. Was your brother with you in the KP Dom?

6 A. Yes, he was. Two of them, actually.

7 Q. Were they together with you in your rooms?

8 A. (redacted)

9 Q. What happened to your brothers? Are they still with you?

10 A. One was exchanged together with me two and a half years later. He

11 was brought in to prison from hospital, from where he had worked, in his

12 white uniform. Seven doctors and seven medical workers were detained;

13 there were 14 members of the medical profession in the camp.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted). We were told that this group

16 was being taken away for a real exchange, and I was happy that at least he

17 was taken away to be exchanged. And it turned out that he's the one who

18 never reappeared again.

19 Q. How big was the group of people that were taken for exchange on

20 the 30th of August? Do you know that?

21 A. Fifty people were put on this bus. After I got out of this

22 prison, I found out that this group had been stopped somewhere near Niksic

23 and then they were returned to the KP Dom again. They spent the night

24 there and that is where they singled out a group of some 20 younger men.

25 They were taken away and there's been no trace of them since. This other

Page 1120

1 group of some 30 men was exchanged somewhere in Montenegro.

2 Q. Did you try to locate your brother? Did you search for him?

3 A. After getting out of this prison, I tried all around, through

4 different people, in Serbia, even in Pozarevac. A friend of mine looked

5 in that prison there, but there's been no trace whatsoever.

6 Q. And the brother you are talking about, is that the person who is

7 on the list in front of you, on Exhibit P401? Is that the brother you are

8 talking about who is missing?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. You mentioned that medical staff was also detained in the KP Dom.

11 Do you know a Dr. Aziz Torlak, and can you tell us what became of him?

12 A. Aziz Torlak, I knew him personally. He was taken away sometime in

13 1993 for some kind of an exchange, and he never returned again, nor does

14 his family know anything of him. I don't know what happened to him.

15 Everybody assumes that he's been killed.

16 Q. Do you recall that a detainee once escaped from the KP Dom?

17 A. Yes, I recall.

18 Q. When did that happen?

19 A. Well, this is the way it was: It was in the first half of 1993.

20 I don't know the month now but it was in the first half. This one group

21 of men, craftsmen, metalworkers, they were taken to this so-called metal

22 plant that was outside the confines of the prison. That's where they

23 worked. The rest were returned to the compound, and he escaped. This

24 went on for about three days, but then they caught him and brought him

25 back. They caught him somewhere on the road leading to Montenegro.

Page 1121












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Page 1122

1 Q. Did this escape have any consequences on the other detainees?

2 A. Yes, yes, it did. When they caught him and brought him back to

3 prison again, we were forbidden to work. Nobody could get out of the

4 room. There was torture those days until we were -- until he was caught.

5 They halved these small meals we were getting; they took away our

6 medicines, whatever we had. They hardly had anything to take away from

7 us. They forbade us to get out of our rooms. There were no medical

8 examinations. They carried out this raid, as they called it.

9 When they brought this Zekovic, they took us out of the room and

10 they lined us all up on the grounds. They brought him in front of this

11 line, and Savo Todovic talked to us there before the warden. He said that

12 no one should dare escape, that not even a bird was able to fly across;

13 that he was caught, he was not beaten, that's what he told us; and indeed

14 we did not see any traces of violence on his face, because he was not far

15 away from the line, 2 or 3 metres away from us. The warden was there,

16 Krnojelac, in front of us, in front of this line-up, that is. There was

17 Miro Prodanovic, commander of the guards, this guard service, and Savo

18 Todovic.

19 Q. What did Mr. Krnojelac do? Was he just standing there or was he

20 also addressing you?

21 A. He was just standing there. He was just standing there. He

22 didn't say anything. Only Savo Todovic spoke.

23 Q. You mentioned that you were forbidden to work when this happened.

24 So at that time you worked?

25 A. Yes, yes, most people worked. Some worked on the prison farm.

Page 1123

1 There were farms for chickens, cattle, cows; it was an agricultural farm,

2 what do you call it. Others worked in a mine; yet others worked in the

3 furniture factory; others worked on cutting wood; others were gathering

4 hay; others were repairing Krnojelac's house, things like that.

5 Q. I would like to know what you worked. What were your assignments?

6 A. After having spent ten months in the room, I could not take it

7 anymore psychologically. I asked a guard how I could get in touch with

8 the warden. He said to me, "Write a request. Write that you want to have

9 an interview with the warden," and that's the only thing I wrote: "I wish

10 to have an interview with the warden." And the guard took it, and two or

11 three days later a guard called me out of my room and he took me to this

12 small room at the entrance of building 2. Right by the entrance there's

13 this small room where a guard sat, during the night as well, and that's

14 where I found Savo Todovic. The warden did not want to see me. This Savo

15 received me.

16 When I got out, skinny as I was, I could hardly stand on my feet,

17 and he said, "What do you want?" "I want to go out and work." I pleaded

18 with him, even in that condition, just so that I could go and work. I

19 couldn't take it, being locked up in a room anymore. And he said, "What

20 are you going to do when you can't?" and I said, "Anything. Just let me

21 go out into the compound so that I get a bit of air. I'll go crazy," I

22 said. And he said to me, "Well, we'll see," and he returned me to the

23 room.

24 After that there was lots of snow. Lots of snow had fallen. A

25 guard called me and informed me that I was assigned to work on piling

Page 1124












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Page 1125

1 firewood within the compound and carrying it to the canteen, to near the

2 kitchen. I carried it for days and days, this frozen firewood, and I was

3 very lightly dressed. It was so hard for me to do it, I could hardly do

4 it, but it was only important for me not to be in the room. And this went

5 on until spring, until we ran out of wood. Some people were cutting this

6 firewood, and I was piling it there. And then I was assigned to the

7 furniture factory. In the meantime, I was taken from time to time to the

8 farm to work on the cornfields, and also to gather hay for the cattle.

9 But for the most part I spent my time at the furniture factory.

10 Q. Did you ever donate blood while in the prison?

11 A. Yes, once. Once. This was at the beginning, when this prison

12 medical official was going round the rooms, saying that blood should be

13 donated, that there wasn't enough blood at the hospital. There were

14 wounded persons there; there were Muslims, Serbs, children; there were

15 quite a few wounded. And over 40 of us signed up then. A team came from

16 the hospital, from this transfusion department, and we donated blood and

17 we were given a pack of cigarettes each, a pack of fruit juice, and a

18 sandwich, respectively, and then we were returned to our rooms. The other

19 time he asked no one signed up. People were so exhausted that nobody

20 dared do such a thing anymore.

21 Q. Let us now move to the command structure in the KP Dom. You have

22 already mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden. Why was -- do you

23 know why the former warden was replaced by Mr. Krnojelac?

24 A. I don't know why the previous warden was replaced. This is a man

25 I knew well. He probably thought that it was not the right place for

Page 1126

1 him. I think that's what he did. He was a smart man. Hardly anyone

2 would accept something like that, in my opinion.

3 Q. This former warden, what was his name?

4 A. Radojica Tesovic.

5 Q. Did he remain on the prison staff? Did he do something else

6 instead of being --

7 A. He was in charge of the farm. He was outside the compound.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Do we know what his ethnicity was?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I didn't hear you. I'm sorry.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Do we know what his ethnicity was?


12 Q. What was his ethnicity?

13 A. Radojica, what ethnicity? He was a Serb. A Serb from Celebici,

14 from Zavajt.

15 Q. Do you know who appointed Mr. Krnojelac in his position as a

16 warden?

17 A. I don't know who appointed him. I assume it was the SDS party.

18 Q. You mentioned that you approached him twice in the prison. Did

19 you see him more often in the prison?

20 A. From time to time, when he would come in. During the day we

21 worked in the factory. Perhaps he came in several times but I would only

22 see him when he came to the factory, to tour the factory.

23 Q. What was he wearing when you saw him in the prison?

24 A. He wore a military uniform, an officer's uniform of the former

25 Yugoslav army, that reserve officers had; without insignia, it was.

Page 1127

1 Q. Did he carry a weapon?

2 A. I did not see.

3 Q. When you saw him, you have already described that his son was with

4 him. Who else was with him?

5 A. You mean then, when I addressed him? Is that what you're talking

6 about?

7 Q. In general. When you saw him or when you approached him, who was

8 with him?

9 A. Then, when I approached him, his son was there and some of the

10 guards. I can't remember who. But as he was coming to the factory to

11 tour it, only the guards were there. His son was not there; his son did

12 not come in. There were other soldiers with him, some other soldiers --

13 some other guards who were on duty.

14 Q. When you said he toured the factory, what do you mean by this?

15 A. He would come with men unknown to me, probably buyers of this

16 furniture. I don't know who it was. But at any rate, they passed through

17 the factory; they looked at this furniture that we were making. We would

18 just say hello in passing and he would pass with them. He would not stop

19 to talk to anyone.

20 Q. You mentioned that you approached him twice. Do you know of any

21 other detainee who had conversations with him, with Mr. Krnojelac?

22 A. No, I don't know. I'm not aware of that.

23 Q. How long was Mr. Krnojelac the warden?

24 A. Until 19 -- until the half -- until mid-1993.

25 Q. And who replaced him?

Page 1128












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Page 1129

1 A. He was replaced by Zoran Sekulovic from Godjen -- the village of

2 Slatine, who was before the war employed in the Oslobodenje, a newspaper

3 company in Sarajevo, in the marketing department, I guess.

4 Q. Did the conditions in the KP Dom change after the replacement of

5 Mr. Krnojelac?

6 A. Yes. The abuse stopped and the attitude of the guards improved.

7 They were not so rigid as before. They gave us more bread, which is the

8 most important thing. And we did feel a change.

9 Q. Let me put to you at that point something that the accused says

10 about his position.

11 He said that the KP Dom, during the war, had two separate

12 sections, a military part and a civil part. The Muslim detainees were in

13 the military part and the normal convicts were in the civil part, and he

14 was only responsible for this civil part. Can you comment on this?

15 A. That is nonsense; that is not true. There was no military part

16 there whatsoever. All the people there were civilians. There was only

17 one man, and I mentioned him before, who had been captured on his position

18 and he was exchanged later with us. There was no other part. All of it

19 was civilian. So that is not true.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I don't know whether you're going

21 to follow it up, but he in that answer was dealing with the people who

22 were being detained there. I thought you had asked him about the people

23 who were running the place.


25 JUDGE HUNT: So I think you should follow that up.

Page 1130

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I intended to do that.

2 Q. Witness, it's not -- Mr. Krnojelac does not argue that you were

3 prisoners of war or involved in any military actions. He only says the

4 prison, as such, was actually two different compounds, a military prison

5 and a civil prison, and he was only dealing with the civil prison, that

6 is, with the normal convicts and not with the Muslims.

7 The question is: Was there such a division into a military part

8 and a civilian part?

9 A. As for the military, only Serb soldiers were locked up; in

10 building 2 they were kept. And there was no one from the Muslim army, no

11 military Muslims. And those people were kept there because they were

12 rowdy or drunken after being out all night. Those Serbs were kept down

13 there because they refused to go back to their positions. But he was

14 warden for the entire complex. Everybody knows that and everybody will

15 confirm it.

16 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest that you ask him directly: Were there

17 any military people who were running any part of the prison? That's what

18 we really have to know.


20 Q. Witness, you heard the Presiding Judge. Was any part of the

21 prison, whatever part, run by the military and not by the civilian staff

22 and Mr. Krnojelac?

23 A. I cannot know that, whether there was any military administration

24 over this prison, because from my position I was unable to find out; nor

25 have I ever seen any military officer enter the compound, ever.

Page 1131












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1132

1 Q. You have described to us Mr. Savo Todovic. What was his function?

2 A. Before the war, he was the so-called officer for employment of

3 former inmates, and later, at the time we're talking about during the war,

4 while we were there - I don't know what his position was called - but he

5 decided who would go to the mines to dig, who would go to other types of

6 work. Nobody could decide that without him; no guard dared to do anything

7 without his approval.

8 Q. What was he wearing when you saw him in the prison?

9 A. Well, sometimes he wore a military uniform; sometimes civilian

10 clothes. It depends. But he often wore some kind of military fur coat,

11 and that's the nickname he got, Bunda, which means fur coat. And when

12 people saw him, they knew there was going to be trouble; everybody was

13 afraid of him.

14 Q. Did he wear a weapon?

15 A. He often carried a pistol. You could see that.

16 Q. Did he beat detainees or abuse them otherwise?

17 A. Yes, he beat them. When Zekovic tried to escape, he interrogated

18 the people who had worked with Zekovic in this metal workshop, and he beat

19 most of them, as if they had known that he was going to try to escape and

20 as if he had planned the escape. That's what he tried to insinuate.

21 Q. Who was the commander of the guards?

22 A. The chief of the guards, that's what he was called, was Mitar

23 Rasevic, and he held that position even before the war.

24 Q. How did he treat the detainees?

25 A. As far as I could see, he didn't do any bad things then. He often

Page 1133

1 entered rooms, advised us not to try to do anything stupid. But I never

2 saw him beat anyone.

3 Q. Did you talk with him personally?

4 A. You mean Mitar? I did once, when a neighbour of mine, a woman,

5 brought me a shirt, some underwear, from my apartment. That's when I

6 spent some time with him, when he invited me to collect this.

7 Q. What did you talk about?

8 A. I asked him whether he knew how long this madness was going to

9 last, and he told me to keep quiet, to act normally, not to try anything.

10 He told me, "Nobody will hit you." That's what he told me.

11 Q. Did you talk with him about the bad living conditions in the KP

12 Dom?

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 Q. You said that you were detained until October 1994. How many

15 detainees were exchanged together with you?

16 A. Sixty-eight. There were 68 of us in that last group from the KP

17 Dom. And from Rudo, from Batkovici, there were people as well from those

18 places. It was a large exchange on that day. We were the last to get out

19 of the KP Dom.

20 Q. When did you meet your wife and your family again?

21 A. A month after the exchange.

22 Q. And when did she leave Foca?

23 A. She left in August, I think, August 1992. She was given an exit

24 permit from Dragan Gagovic allowing her to leave Foca together with the

25 children.

Page 1134












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1135

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

2 show the witness the exit permit which has the identification number in

3 the trial binders of 127 and 127A. I would like to show him the B/C/S

4 version.

5 You can have this one. Please do not put it on the ELMO because

6 the names are on there.



9 Q. Witness, when you look at this permit from the 27th of June, 1992,

10 is that the name of your wife and your children on it?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution would like to enter this

13 exhibit into evidence.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Those documents will be Exhibit P127 and P127A; they

17 will both be under seal.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

19 Q. Witness, do you recall that you gave a statement to the

20 investigators' office on one occasion and that you, on this occasion,

21 handed over a list with the names of the prison staff?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you made this list, did you make it from your recollection?

24 A. Yes, based on my memory.

25 Q. On this list you gave the name of -- the names of about 12 guards

Page 1136












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1137

1 that you mentioned that they stood out in brutality; do you recall that?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. And can you repeat for the Court the names of these particular

4 brutal guards?

5 A. I can. Maybe not all of them but I'll try. Milenko Burilo,

6 Dragomir Obrenovic, Vlatko Pljevaljcic, Vitomir Micevic, Predrag

7 Stefanovic, Jovo Savic, Radovan Vukovic, Milovan Vukovic, Zoran Matovic -

8 him especially, and Burilo as well, and so on. I can't remember any more

9 at this moment.

10 Q. Witness, you have described to us --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm sorry.

13 Q. Witness, you have described to us how you suffered while you were

14 there and that you also have some permanent results -- permanent physical

15 damage. Do you still suffer psychologically?

16 A. Yes. Often in the night I wake up screaming and I'm soaking wet.

17 It's very difficult for me to shake off this state. I tremble

18 frightfully. It's horrible.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are all the questions that

20 the Prosecution has.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Vasic?

22 Perhaps I should remind both you and the witness, when you're both

23 speaking in the same language, you do tend to get ahead of the

24 translators, so pause at the end of the question before the answer

25 commences, and pause at the end of the answer before the next question

Page 1138

1 commences.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

4 Q. I would like to introduce myself to the witness. I'm Miroslav

5 Vasic, one of the Defence counsel for Mr. Krnojelac.

6 Since you started your testimony on the 9th of November this year,

7 when you took the solemn declaration, and today is the 23rd of November,

8 can you please tell me where you spent this time between these two

9 sessions of the court?

10 A. At home.

11 Q. In this period, did you talk to anyone about the subject of your

12 testimony?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. In the first part of your testimony you mentioned

15 that, together with the accused, you were a member of the Territorial

16 Defence. You also said that he had a higher rank than you did. My

17 question is: In the army establishment, were you superior to Milorad

18 Krnojelac in the Territorial Defence?

19 A. No. The commander of the staff was his superior. (redacted)

20 (redacted). And he was a commander of a very large unit.

21 Q. Thank you. In view of your place there, your position in the

22 institution where you said you worked, are you aware that in 1994 [as

23 interpreted] there was a reorganisation in the unit which was, until then,

24 commanded by Milorad Krnojelac?

25 A. Yes. We went to drills after that and he continued for another

Page 1139

1 two years in that position.

2 Q. Do you know that he was replaced on that position by Mr. Radovic,

3 who became commander?

4 A. Radovic? No, I don't know.

5 Q. Thank you. Do you perhaps remember that you were at a drill in

6 1992 [as interpreted] together with the accused on the stretch from Zavajt

7 to Godjen Foca?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you please tell us who was the commander of that drill, his

10 full name?

11 A. You mean the drill?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. The commander of the drill was the then colonel from the district

14 headquarters in Sarajevo.

15 Q. What ethnicity was he?

16 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, please do wait. You're well and truly

17 ahead of the interpreters.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Can you please tell us what was the ethnicity?

20 A. You mean the colonel?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. A Muslim.

23 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, do you know where Milorad

24 Krnojelac's house was at the beginning of the armed conflict, in which

25 area of Foca?

Page 1140

1 A. I know. In Donje Polje, above the carpentry shop.

2 Q. Do you know that his house was burnt down?

3 A. Yes, I heard about that.

4 Q. Did you hear that some other Serbian houses burnt down in that

5 area?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, just to get the picture clearer, you

8 asked -- or at least you are recorded as having asked about this colonel

9 who was a Muslim taking over in 1994. Did you mean 1984? Was it before

10 or after the war?

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] 1984, yes, certainly, Your Honour.

12 A. 1982.

13 Q. I asked about the drill in 1982, who commanded that drill, and who

14 took over command of the detachment in 1984.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry, but I don't

16 see the transcript from where I'm standing now.

17 JUDGE HUNT: It's gone, and I don't have a laptop in this

18 courtroom, but it definitely said 1994, which seemed curious at the time.

19 You may or may not have said it; it may have been a misinterpretation or a

20 mistyping. But I thought I should get it cleared up. You are talking

21 about before the war, and that's all we need to know at this stage.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Can you tell us, was your house burned down during the military

24 operations?

25 A. No. It's still standing.

Page 1141












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1142

1 Q. And where is your house?

2 A. In Donje Polje.

3 Q. Thank you. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)?

6 A. (redacted)

7 Q. (redacted)

8 A. (redacted)

9 (redacted).

10 Q. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 A. Do I have to answer this? Well, in any case, you can see the

15 entrance --

16 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. There is a problem with the question

17 of identification. If you'd like, we can go into a closed session to get

18 the detail if you really need it. We've been redacting most of the

19 references to where he lives. But there have been references to him being

20 able to see the fish restaurant, and I understand that. If you want to go

21 into some detail, I think we should close the court for it.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I would kindly ask

23 that this be done, because this is important. It refers to the statement

24 of this witness. The position of his apartment is relevant; it's

25 important for us to know where it is and what can be seen from there.

Page 1143

1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, we'll go into closed session. It will

2 take just a moment.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, we're in public session now. Thank you.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. To the question of the Prosecutor, you said you gave a statement

22 to the investigator of the Prosecutor's Office.

23 A. I didn't really understand. Did I what?

24 Q. When asked by the Prosecutor, you said you gave a written

25 statement to the investigators of the Prosecutor's Office; is that true?

Page 1144

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you read that statement and sign it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. With that statement given to the investigator of the Prosecutor's

5 Office, did you also provide your manuscripts related to some staff of the

6 KP Dom and a list of persons employed in the KP Dom from 1992 to 1994?

7 A. Yes. I gave that only in order to clarify certain things.

8 Q. Thank you. In those manuscripts you gave then, did you write

9 about a person by the name of Savo Todovic?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. I'll now read out to you what you wrote, and you will tell me

12 whether you have, indeed, written this and signed this.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That is page 13 of your attachment. I will read slowly because I

15 think the interpreters don't have this text.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Should the witness have a copy of it?

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would like the

18 assistance of the usher.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.


21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The interpreters have this document and they

22 can read from it.

23 JUDGE HUNT: I should think so, yes. But that should not be an

24 invitation for him to speed up, though, please. Could somebody take it

25 across to the witness? Thanks.

Page 1145

1 You are showing him page 13, are you?

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

3 Q. On this page, I will start with the part following the basic

4 personal information about Savo Todovic:

5 "In the words of his associates, some of whom were inmates in the

6 camp, he stood out even then in maltreating former inmates. On the part

7 of the command of the Serbian army, he was appointed the man in charge of

8 Muslim detainees, which he constantly proved by his actions. He enjoyed

9 this role, and every time he appeared in the compound, that was fatal for

10 the majority of prisoners. He ordered people to be beaten, maltreated,

11 and killed, and he frequently participated in this himself.

12 "He also distributed prisoners to work in various places such as

13 the mine, the felling of trees, work in the factory or on the farm,

14 hay-cutting, clearing up the rubble, et cetera. He often participated

15 personally in the search of rooms and put people in solitary cells for

16 minor infractions. Without his approval, nobody could be released. He

17 frightened prisoners out of their wits."

18 Did you write this?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it is time to

21 break.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We'll resume at 2.30.

23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.



Page 1146

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Today you stated that when you came to the KP Dom, when you were

5 brought into custody there, that the guards were the former guards of the

6 KP Dom. Do you remember having said to the investigator of the

7 Prosecutor's Office that when you came to the KP Dom, that there were some

8 paramilitary forces there that came out of that region, out of Foca?

9 A. I don't remember. But there were some people. There were even

10 some former prisoners, Serbs. There were a few of them, actually.

11 Q. Thank you. Today you stated that some of the soldiers -- some of

12 the inmates made underwear out of blankets, made underwear. Was that

13 possible if everybody just had one blanket?

14 A. There was more than one blanket until they searched the rooms.

15 When they realised that people were cutting up these blankets -- I don't

16 know how they found out, but when they searched the premises, they took

17 everything away from everyone and left every person with just one blanket

18 apiece.

19 Q. Can you tell us when this was, please?

20 A. In the winter of 1992/1993, when we did not have any fire, when we

21 did not have any heating at all.

22 Q. During your stay at the KP Dom, did you get an infusion from the

23 doctor who was there also?

24 A. No, not from the doctor. When I lost consciousness three times,

25 then Gojko Jokanovic brought me an infusion in the evening, and

Page 1147












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1148

1 Dr. Amir Berberkic, our doctor who was detained in our room, put the drip

2 on.

3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me who Gojko Jankovic was?

4 A. Before the war, he worked at the KP Dom as an x-ray specialist,

5 and he retired in that position. But while we were there, he was the man

6 in charge of the clinic.

7 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us in which room Kemal Dzelilovic was, as

8 well as Fuad Mandzo, Zulfo Veiz, Munib Veiz?

9 A. I can. Kemal Dzelilovic was in Room 12; Fuad Mandzo, number 14;

10 Munib Veiz, in number 11; Zulfo Veiz, in number 15.

11 Q. Can you tell us -- I mean, you said that they were taken out.

12 When did this happen?

13 A. During the first months of our stay in prison.

14 Q. Were they taken out together when they never returned or

15 individually?

16 A. They were taken out individually. They were not taken out all

17 together.

18 Q. Do you know the time when each and every one of them was taken

19 out?

20 A. I can't remember the date right now.

21 Q. Were they taken out on the same day?

22 A. Zulfo Veiz and Munib Veiz, I think there were two or three days in

23 between.

24 Q. Can you tell us, Halim Konjo, whom you also mentioned today here,

25 when was he taken out and where was he taken?

Page 1149

1 A. He was taken to the administration building, and rumour had it

2 that he had been killed, that he had succumbed to the beatings. From

3 Room 12, he was.

4 Q. When you say "the administration building," is that the visitation

5 area that you mentioned?

6 A. Yes, yes, yes.

7 Q. What about the rest, the other prisoners? Were they taken to the

8 administration building, to that area for visits?

9 A. Do you mean for giving statements?

10 Q. No. I mean the beatings that you mentioned.

11 A. Most of them, yes.

12 Q. Does that mean to Munib Veiz --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the names. They

14 went very fast.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Did you get that message, Mr. Vasic, from the

16 interpreters? They said that you are speaking the names far too quickly

17 and they cannot really keep up with you. So if you could repeat the name,

18 or at least pause after each one. Thank you.

19 THE INTERPRETER: If counsel could just pause after the witness'

20 answer.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I did not

22 get this message, but I shall bear this in mind.

23 Q. So it was Kemal Dzelilovic, Fuad Mandzo, Zulfo Veiz, Munib Veiz,

24 Salko Mandzo; were they taken to these same premises for beatings?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1150

1 Q. Today you stated for Salko Mandzo that he was taken out of

2 Room 12.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you tell the investigators of the OTP that he was taken out of

5 your room?

6 A. No. No, I did not. I don't think I did.

7 Q. Thank you. So you are saying that he was taken out of Room 12.

8 A. Yes, out of Room 12.

9 Q. Today you talked about an exchange that took place when one group

10 of prisoners was taken to Montenegro and returned. Do you recall having

11 said to the investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor that this group

12 was separated in Niksic; that in Niksic the younger prisoners were

13 separated from the others, including your brother, and that they were

14 taken away from somewhere and that they are registered as missing?

15 A. I could have said so. Possibly I did, because I did not know the

16 truth. Only later, when I met some people from that group, they told me

17 how it all went.

18 Q. I shall now go back to the documents that you handed over to the

19 investigator of the OTP, that are handwritten by you, that is, document 7,

20 the list of Serb employees in KP Dom Foca.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Item number 1, you wrote -- actually, item 1 says: "Krnojelac,

23 Milorad - warden of the prison."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is that correct?

Page 1151

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Milutin Tijanic, deputy.

3 A. He was.

4 Q. Milan Vojevic, deputy. Very briefly. I heard that he left very

5 quickly.

6 Q. "Todovic Savo, officer in charge of work distribution, commander

7 appointed him to be in charge of camp inmates."

8 A. Well, that is what he told us when Ekrem Zekovic escaped, that he

9 was appointed by the military commander -- oh, what's this?

10 JUDGE HUNT: Please.

11 A. I do apologise. I do apologise.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Both of you, would you please wait until the

13 translators have had a catch up.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that the court reporters

15 cannot keep up with the speed of the interpretation.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I shall put my question again - thank

17 you, Your Honour - so that it would be in the transcript.

18 Q. Point 4: "Savo Todovic, officer in charge of work distribution.

19 The Serbian commander appointed him to be in charge of camp inmates."

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can I proceed now?

22 JUDGE HUNT: When you are reading, you do speed up quite

23 naturally. It's something which everybody does without realising it until

24 it's pointed out to you. So when you are reading something from there,

25 remember to keep your speed down.

Page 1152

1 Then please, sir, will you wait until -- if you can hear the

2 translation going in the background there, wait until you hear it stop

3 before you answer.

4 A. This same person said to us, when Enes Zekovic had escaped -- no,

5 Ekrem Zekovic. When we were lined up there, he said that the Serbian army

6 put him in charge, that he was to be in charge of the detained Muslims and

7 that he could kill all of us because he has 400 bullets for his automatic

8 rifle, and that he alone could kill all of us.

9 Q. Thank you. Item 5, it says: "Radojica Tesovic, director of the

10 Drina production unit."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us, from which date or from which time was Radojica

13 Tesovic director of this unit?

14 A. That I don't know. That I don't know. He was at the farm but I

15 didn't know. I didn't go up there then.

16 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you said that you saw Milorad

17 Krnojelac going towards the fish restaurant. Why did you not mention this

18 fact in the statements that you gave to the investigators of the Office of

19 the Prosecutor and the other statements that you gave to the Security

20 Centre?

21 A. I don't know why I didn't say that.

22 Q. In these same statements, why did you not say that you thought

23 that Milorad Krnojelac was a member of the SDS, but you did say that here

24 before the Court?

25 A. I can't remember why I didn't say that.

Page 1153

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has no further questions,

3 Your Honours.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

7 Q. Witness, Defence counsel read to you what you have written in your

8 summary about Savo Todovic, and also in your list, that he was in charge

9 of the camp inmates. What did you mean by him being in charge of the camp

10 inmates?

11 A. I meant that he's the one who said who would work where, which

12 room people would be transferred to, because guards brought lists in and

13 said that that is what he had ordered.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. No further

15 questions.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You may leave

17 now.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please say something else?

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, if you wish. If you want to sit down so it can

20 be heard properly.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. But, really, I did

22 not come here to bring charges against Todovic or even -- or Tesovic or

23 even Krnojelac. But after everything we've been through, I would kindly

24 ask this Court to find out where all these missing people are. There are

25 so many children who are orphans nowadays. There are hundreds of them.

Page 1154

1 Even until the present day, they've not found out where these people's

2 bones are. Can we at least bury their bones? The families don't know

3 until the present day. They hope that some of them might appear some day,

4 but I realise that all of them have been killed. But let's be told once

5 and for all where they were killed. Let this be investigated.

6 It is sad when I and the other people watch on TV

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina the warden of the KP Dom stating that he does not feel

8 guilty about any one of these counts. Let him say where all these people

9 are. He was the warden there; he should know where they were taken and

10 where they were all killed.

11 That is what I wish to say. I really do apologise to you.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, sir, I can tell you you are not the first

13 person who has expressed very similar sentiments to the Tribunal. We, of

14 course, are restricted to the issues which arise in this case. But what

15 you have said has been noted. We thank you very much for having expressed

16 your views, but we have to leave it there.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, is yours the next witness?

20 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon.

21 The next witness is Mr. Jussi Kemppainen. He is an investigator

22 at the Tribunal. Briefly, the evidence that he will be giving is evidence

23 as to the inquiries made as to the disappearance of individuals named in

24 Schedule C of the indictment, and also in relation to the interview of the

25 accused. He will be referring to a large amount of documentary material

Page 1155

1 which perhaps doesn't need to be referred to at length. But before he

2 comes in, if I can just identify the material that he will be using in his

3 testimony so that no confusion arises.

4 In relation to the inquiries as to the whereabouts of the

5 detainees at KP Dom, that material is contained in binder 3 of the

6 potential Prosecution exhibits. And that material, I would ask that that

7 be identified as Prosecution identification number 55/1. Originally the

8 binder was given the number of 55, but that Schedule in front of the

9 binder that relates to the indictment was given that exhibit number, P55,

10 just the Schedule. So if the binder could be referred to as 55/1.

11 JUDGE HUNT: The whereabouts or the inquiries as to the

12 whereabouts of all of these people, that's a matter that was raised during

13 the Pre-Trial Conference. As I understand it, the Prosecution is not

14 being put to formal proof, so that could just be tendered, could it not?

15 MR. SMITH: And that's what I -- that's, in fact, what I would

16 like to do rather than go through this file one by one and take an hour

17 and a half.

18 JUDGE HUNT: That's right.

19 MR. SMITH: There are just a couple of documents within that that

20 need a small amount of clarification, a couple of typographical errors.

21 So that should take a brief amount of time.

22 Similarly, with the interview, there's the videotapes, the

23 transcripts, and a couple of documents that were referred to in the

24 interview. That material is contained in binder 2 of the Prosecution

25 potential exhibits, obviously apart from the videotapes.

Page 1156

1 But just briefly, in relation to the material of 55/1, there's a

2 couple of extra investigator's notes that are provided to the Defence

3 today, and we've provided to the Court. The first investigator's note

4 relates to Salem Bico, which is number 2 on the Schedule, and that

5 simply is a replacement of the same investigator's note that appears in

6 binder 55/1 except it's been redacted. The details of the person that

7 gave the information, the phone number, et cetera, has been taken off. So

8 it's just a --

9 JUDGE HUNT: But that has been given to the accused?

10 MR. SMITH: That has been given to the accused this morning. This

11 is just three extra --

12 JUDGE HUNT: When you said "some material has been redacted," is

13 there an unredacted copy for the accused?

14 MR. SMITH: Well, it's been redacted for the purpose of taking

15 away the details of the phone numbers, of the current whereabouts of that

16 person.

17 JUDGE HUNT: I see.

18 MR. SMITH: And then that's a replacement. And then there's two

19 additional investigator's notes that should be placed in binder 55/1 and

20 that is in relation to Krunoslav Marinovic; he is number 18 on the

21 Schedule. Also an investigator's note in relation to Munib Veiz, and he

22 is number 28 on the Schedule. These two investigator's notes are the

23 only two notes that won't be reflected in the index at the front of this

24 binder, 55/1.

25 Also, this investigator has some materials which were provided to

Page 1157

1 the Defence and to the Court with an index attached to it, and they relate

2 to results of inquiries of the whereabouts of detainees that were not --

3 are not in Schedule C, not those 29, but six extra people that were in the

4 KP Dom, and those -- that information arose out of the particular

5 inquiries for these 29 individuals. And that packet of information, it's

6 about 20 pages or so, it has an index in the front of it, and that is

7 entitled, that index: "Inquiries as to the disappearance of other KP Dom

8 detainees not listed in Schedule C of the indictment," and I would ask

9 that that be marked 55/2.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Do you propose to amend the indictment?

11 MR. SMITH: No, Your Honour, we're not -- I think in the

12 indictment we've taken the position that we would prove the killings of

13 the 29 in the Schedule, but in the general wording of the indictment, I

14 think we also -- we also state that in addition to the 29 individuals

15 named, other individuals are also murdered at the KP Dom, or the KP Dom

16 was a significant contributor to the death of these individuals, and I

17 think we've kept it broad in that regard. We have specifically put

18 ourselves to 29, but there is, I think, wording in there that allows for

19 these other individuals.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Marinovic, by the way, is number 17, not number 18.

21 MR. SMITH: I apologise, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Bakrac, first of all, there's a replacement

23 for Salem Bico, and then there are the two additional matters. Have you

24 any problems in relation to those, the notes, the investigator's notes?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

Page 1158

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. And then there's the folder with the six

2 additional people in Schedule C -- I'm sorry, people not in Schedule C.

3 Have you any problem with that material?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no, since the Prosecutor

5 said that they are going to keep 29 persons, that they are not going to

6 amend the indictment accordingly. So we do not object.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I don't want there to be any misunderstanding

8 about that. What they're saying is that there's a general allegation in

9 the indictment which says the 29 people in Schedule C and some others they

10 have been unable to name. Well, now they are able to name some additional

11 ones. They are still relying upon the general allegation in the

12 indictment. So have you any problem in relation to this material which is

13 marked or identified at this moment 55/2?

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in that respect, we

15 would have to check this material out. We would have to check the

16 statements or allegations made. We would like to see whether this

17 document could be admitted into evidence as such.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. I understand that. Will you be able to have

19 those investigations completed by the time we resume at the beginning of

20 next year?

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I hope so, Your Honour. We have

22 enough time to try to investigate this. I cannot exactly envisage this,

23 but I should think that December should be sufficient for establishing all

24 of this.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Bearing in mind that you really take no issue, as I

Page 1159

1 understand it, with their death, you only take issue with the means or the

2 manner of their death, it should not be too hard for you to check.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, I would

4 like to add something to what you've said. You said "manner of their

5 death," but also place of their death, if you will.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Yes, I accept that.

7 Well, Mr. Smith, we might leave that one marked for identification

8 at this stage, but bearing in mind the way in which the others have been

9 dealt with, it's unlikely there will be any problem about it. I think the

10 Defence should be given the opportunity of making some investigation.

11 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: They may find somebody alive.

13 MR. SMITH: Yes.

14 JUDGE HUNT: All right, then. Well, then, the material which is

15 presently in the folder will be Exhibit P55/1, and the other material will

16 be marked for identification 55/2, at this stage.

17 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want to tender the transcripts and videos?

19 MR. SMITH: Well, this might be a quicker way of going about it.

20 JUDGE HUNT: I think so.

21 MR. SMITH: Yes. I would ask that the transcripts numbered 43,

22 46, 48, and 50 --

23 JUDGE HUNT: Wait a minute. 43.

24 MR. SMITH: 46, 48, and 50, which reflect the four days of

25 interview with the accused, that they be tendered. Copies have been

Page 1160

1 provided to the Defence.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, They're in the binders.

3 MR. SMITH: That's right, yes. And the videos -- the

4 corresponding videos, 44, 45, 47, 49, and 51, that they be tendered.

5 Videotape 44 and 45 relate to the first day of interview; that's

6 transcript 43.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Bakrac, the investigator is going to be

8 here for you to ask any questions of, but do you have any objection to the

9 tendering of that material?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no. The objective of

11 our -- of this interview has been to make it helpful, and there is no

12 reason for us to object.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, you've certainly managed to get in

14 everything that you've wanted, I think, having read most of it.

15 Well, those transcripts will be Exhibits P43, P46, P48, and P50,

16 and the videotapes will be Exhibits P44, P45, P47, P49, and P51.

17 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. And there was five documents

18 that were referred to during the interview: a map, which was marked by

19 the accused, which is a redacted map -- the map that, in fact, was marked

20 was not redacted of the Witness 12 who made the three-dimensional drawing

21 of the KP Dom, but we have a redacted version of that map with the marking

22 that the accused placed on it, and I would like that that be tendered as

23 well.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Has it got a number now?

25 MR. SMITH: It has no number now, Your Honour.

Page 1161

1 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection to that, Mr. Bakrac?

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit P402.

4 MR. SMITH: And then the list of the guards was referred to, but

5 that's in as evidence already as P3. But the three other documents that

6 were referred to are Prosecution identification number 53 -- sorry, 52,

7 53, and 54, and these relate to -- Prosecution identification number 52

8 relates to an Official Gazette regarding the treatment of captured

9 prisoners, issued by The Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated the

10 13th of June, 1992.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Is that an official title of some government

12 organisation, is it, The Serbian People --

13 MR. SMITH: That's what appears on the header of the gazette.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I see. Yes.

15 MR. SMITH: And then Prosecution identification number 53 which is

16 a letter from the Minister Ranko Nikolic, dated the 20th of April, 1992,

17 regarding the transfer of prisoners from the KP Dom to another place prior

18 to that date. And then Prosecution identification number 54 is a

19 document -- it's an order from Radovan Karadzic, dated August the 6th,

20 1992, and that relates to an order as to the treatment or as to the

21 Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Justice and

22 Administration to report on the treatment of prisoners of war by prison

23 guards, et cetera. It's a request for reports as to how they were

24 treated. And that was number 54. Because they're referred to in the

25 interview, I would ask that they be tendered and given those numbers as

Page 1162

1 well.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honour. Thank you.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. They will be Exhibit P52, P53, and P54.

5 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, therefore, the examination of this

6 witness is going to be quite short. It will just refer to a couple of

7 documents in 55/1, the Schedule C folder, and not too much more than that.

8 JUDGE HUNT: We're very grateful to counsel on both sides for

9 having managed to shorten what would have taken several days, I think.

10 Have you got your witness here?

11 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE HUNT: Take the solemn declaration, please, sir.

14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

15 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


17 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down. Thank you.

18 Examined by Mr. Smith:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kemppainen. You're an investigator at the

20 ICTY. How long have you been working here?

21 A. I have been working a little bit more than one year.

22 Q. And your experience, your investigative experience, prior to

23 coming to the Tribunal?

24 A. Prior I was senior detective in Helsinki police department for

25 about 12 years, and from that period I was a detective in the homicide

Page 1163

1 unit for more than 10 years.

2 Q. In relation to this particular case, what type of inquiries did

3 you make?

4 A. I interviewed the accused and I have made some inquiries relating

5 to some individuals who were detained at the KP Dom and who are listed in

6 Schedule C of the indictment.

7 Q. The results of the inquiries in relation to Schedule C - that is

8 now Prosecution Exhibit 55/1 - can you briefly tell the Court how those

9 inquiries were conducted and what types of materials are contained in that

10 folder?

11 A. So mainly we contacted the relatives and the friends of these

12 persons mentioned in Schedule C, and we asked them to provide the

13 documentation about these missing persons. And sometimes we contacted the

14 Bosnian government to provide documentation about these persons.

15 Q. And what are the basic type of documents that reappear throughout

16 this folder?

17 A. Quite often we got Bosnian State Commission for Missing Persons

18 certificates. Sometimes it was ICRC missing person confirmation and

19 certificates, death certificates, and municipal court decisions from

20 Bosnia. Sometimes it was newspaper articles and/or some other

21 certificates or documents as well.

22 Q. And you prepared an index for this documentation in relation to

23 the 29 individuals?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And that relates to the documents contained in --

Page 1164

1 THE INTERPRETER: Would you please pause between answer and

2 question. Thank you.

3 MR. SMITH: I apologise.

4 JUDGE HUNT: You suffer from the same problem. You are both

5 speaking the same language and you are leaving the translators behind.


7 Q. And that index relates to the documents contained in that folder.

8 A. Yes, it relates to the documents.

9 Q. I would now like you to turn to the first individual, Alija

10 Altoka, number 1 on Schedule C, and you'll see that there's an extract in

11 relation to the International Red Cross missing persons list.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That type of extract also appears for individuals number 17, 20,

14 and 28 of the Schedule.

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. But it doesn't contain a date, the date of when they were

17 registered as missing.

18 A. Yes, that's true.

19 Q. Do you know what that date is?

20 A. So I double-checked these individuals from the ICRC's missing

21 persons book which was issued on the 30th of June, 1998, and they were all

22 missing on that date.

23 Q. If I can ask you to look at number 5, an individual Enko Cedic,

24 and look at the investigator's note. There it states: "Relatives could

25 not have been contacted." Can you explain what was done in relation to

Page 1165

1 attempting to contact the relatives?

2 A. We tried to ask about him from the former detainees, our

3 witnesses, and also we requested information about him from the Bosnian

4 government, but we didn't get any response.

5 Q. And does that explanation also relate to the entries contained in

6 the investigator's notes of individuals 11 and 18 as well?

7 A. Yes, it does.

8 Q. I would now ask that you turn to the material relating to Esad

9 Kiselica, number 12 on the Schedule, and if you can look at the Gorazde

10 Municipal Court decision regarding the death of this person and look at

11 the date that appears on that translation as the date as to which the

12 person was declared dead.

13 A. Yes. There is a mistake in the translation. The right date

14 should be the 19th of September, 1992, and that's something you can check

15 from the B/C/S version, the original version.

16 Q. And that mistake appears in another way in the index, where it

17 states: "Died on the 19th of November, 1992."

18 A. Yes, that's true. So I picked the date from the English

19 translation, and the right date should be the 19th of September, 1992.

20 Q. I'd ask that you look at the documentation that relates to Dzemal

21 Vahida, individual number 27 on the Schedule. And if you can look at the

22 Bosnian government -- sorry. If you can look at the certificate from the

23 Department of the Interior, and I believe there's a mistake in that

24 certificate -- in the translation of that certificate.

25 A. Yes. On that certificate there is a date, the 23rd of December,

Page 1166

1 1992, and it's a mistranslation as well. The date should be the 23rd of

2 December, 1996.

3 Q. And what does that date relate to?

4 A. It's relating to the legal date of the death.

5 Q. Thank you. I've now finished with the folder 55/1.

6 You also made some further inquiries or received some further

7 information during your inquiries regarding the disappearance of these

8 29 individuals; is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And that further information, does that relate to the materials

11 contained behind the index of 55/2?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. And there -- did you prepare that index?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. And it relates to six individuals there.

16 A. That's true.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it would be

20 more purposeful to invite the witness, once we have completed our

21 investigation with regard to the six additional persons, so that we could

22 ask questions too. In view of the fact that these six persons are not

23 included in the exhibit, we think questions should not be asked in this

24 respect now.

25 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest that we do have the questions now but

Page 1167

1 you reserve your right for cross-examination, because it may assist you in

2 your inquiries to have this further information. If the material is

3 subsequently excluded, then this evidence can be excluded. But it would

4 save having the witness brought back later if you don't need him later.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. Thank you.

6 JUDGE HUNT: You're being fully protected on it, so it's quite all

7 right.

8 You go ahead, Mr. Smith.

9 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. In relation to this list, if you look at the first individual,

11 Miralem Altoka, can you look at the Sarajevo Municipal Court decision and

12 point out the translation that needs correction?

13 A. This document is stating, the English translation, that the

14 pursuant date of that is December 1992, and on the B/C/S version it's

15 1996. So there's a translation error.

16 Q. And if you look at the second individual, Halim Dzelilovic, and

17 look at the investigator's note relating to that person, I believe there's

18 a spelling error as to the name in point number 2.

19 A. Yes. It should be "Halim" not "Hamil," and that's something you

20 can check from the documents, the B/C/S documents, as well.

21 Q. And if you look at individual number -- the documentation relating

22 to individual number 3, Halid Konjo, there's a summary translation of an

23 on-site investigation with regard to the exhumation of bodies in

24 Podstolac-Ustikolina, on the 5th of November, 1997, identifying Halid

25 Konjo's body at that location.

Page 1168

1 A. Yes. On this summary translation, the name is "Halim" and it

2 should be Halid, and that is something you can check from the B/C/S

3 versions as well.

4 Q. And this is --

5 JUDGE HUNT: It may be easier for everybody if those names are

6 spelt. I see that there's a lot of "check" signs coming up, which is

7 understandable.

8 MR. SMITH: Yes.

9 JUDGE HUNT: There are two there that the witness has corrected.

10 Halim should be Halid is the way it's put. But if you can go back to

11 those questions, and then that one again.

12 MR. SMITH: The individual I'm referring to in 55/2 is Halid

13 Konjo.

14 JUDGE HUNT: H-a-l-i-d.

15 MR. SMITH: H-a-l-i-d, surname K-o-n-j-o.

16 Q. You've mentioned in the draft translation of the on-site

17 investigation documents that there was a spelling error as to Halid

18 Konjo's name. What was that error?

19 A. So in this translation, it was spelled H-a-l-i-m, and it should be

20 H-a-l-i-d, Halid.

21 Q. And can that be seen from the documentation, the original

22 documentation attached?

23 A. That's correct, yes.

24 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, are there any other names you'd like me

25 to go back to at this point, or can we just check with --

Page 1169

1 JUDGE HUNT: No, but any future one. It will certainly help the

2 court reporter, as well as the translators.


4 Q. Mr. Kemppainen, I'd now like to turn to the interview that you had

5 with the accused. I believe you had four days of interviews with the

6 accused.

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And during that interview, the accused marked a three-dimensional

9 sketch of the KP Dom; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. And you have a copy of that sketch there?

12 A. I have a redacted copy of that.

13 Q. And I believe that was Exhibit -- I've forgotten the exhibit.

14 It's P402. But if you can just place a copy of that map on the ELMO. Can

15 you indicate where the accused made a marking on that map as to his office

16 that he had at the KP Dom?

17 A. He made a marking here, in building 2, the top floor, indicating

18 the location of his office.

19 MR. SMITH: That marking is indicated by the witness.

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. But which floor is he marking? The pointer was

22 somewhere in between the top floor and the one underneath it.

23 A. So --


25 Q. Can you place -- was it the top floor you were pointing to or the

Page 1170

1 first floor?

2 A. It's the top floor, where you can see this line. He's drawn this

3 line, indicating the location of his office.

4 Q. Did he indicate in the interview whether that was the first

5 location of his office, or did he have an office prior to that?

6 A. No. He stated that at the first place, when he arrived at the KP

7 Dom, he had a place or an office on the ground floor in the same building,

8 building 2.

9 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Mr. Bakrac?

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have only two

12 questions.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

14 Q. The first one has to do with this additional material we have

15 received. It concerns the person under number 3, Halid Konjo. The last

16 document is an exhumation in Kostolac, the area of Ustikolina.

17 Can the witness please tell us, to whom does the territory of

18 Ustikolina belong? To which area does it belong? To which entity?

19 A. According to my knowledge, it is the RS side, the Republika Srpska

20 side, or ...

21 Q. You say it was located. What does that mean?

22 A. So about the exhumations, this is just the document I received,

23 and I think that the Prosecutor is going to have somebody else to testify

24 on these things.

25 Q. Does that mean that you cannot answer this question? You have

Page 1171

1 been invited here as a witness to give us an interpretation of these

2 documents.

3 A. I'm just giving the evidence in reference to those two names,

4 Halid Konjo and Murat Crneta.

5 MR. SMITH: Your Honour -- sorry.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith. Who is being called who can tell us

7 about the exhumations?

8 MR. SMITH: Mr. Ahmo Mazovic. We're attempting to call him. He

9 is the head of the State Commission for Missing Persons in Bosnia. This

10 material was received by this witness, and so perhaps Mr. Mazovic would be

11 the best person to give some more details on it.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I think, if I may say so, Mr. Bakrac, you gave this

13 witness more credit than he might be due. He has done the hard work of

14 checking all the names and things like that. You're going to have another

15 witness about the exhumations. But surely we can look on a map to see

16 whether this particular area is within the Republika Srpska or the

17 Federation. If you want to ask him something else, he may know. But he

18 started off by saying, "Within my knowledge, it is in Republika Srpska,"

19 so that's the best he can do for you.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Was.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, the transcript says "is."

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Just another question, Your Honours,

23 in this connection.

24 Q. Does this witness know who performed the exhumations, I mean these

25 two exhumations?

Page 1172

1 A. I don't have the full translations on the Bosnian language

2 documents, but I think in the following documents you can see the list of

3 people who were present on those exhumations. And Mr. Ahmo Mazovic is

4 mentioned there.

5 Q. Thank you. And another last question: You said the accused told

6 you in the interview that his office, in the beginning, was in a different

7 place. Are you sure that he referred to it as his office, or did he

8 perhaps mention another term?

9 A. I think I mentioned that office or place where he was during the

10 days. Not the office, the place.

11 Q. Thank you. You've clarified this.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

13 JUDGE HUNT: The transcript said that he indicated the location of

14 his office. It may or may not be important, but that's what the witness

15 said earlier. Is it not in the transcript of the interview at the time

16 when this document was shown to your client?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I only wanted to

18 hear this witness tell us whether the accused told him he had had an

19 office, or I was correct in my understanding of his reply, that it was not

20 an office but a place where he spent his time in the beginning.

21 JUDGE HUNT: I think that will be resolved by looking through the

22 transcript of the interview rather than asking the witness to say from his

23 recollection, assuming that the transcript from the interview is correct.

24 We've got the video. There are plenty of ways of checking it.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. I agree, Your

Page 1173

1 Honour. I only wanted to check this through one question. I wasn't sure

2 what the investigator meant. But, of course, we can check it through the

3 transcript and the video.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Anything else?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith?

7 Thank you, sir. You may leave.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution has a problem now. We did

12 not expect that it would be so brief with Mr. Kemppainen, and --

13 JUDGE HUNT: You have no more witnesses this afternoon.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. The two next witnesses, the victim

15 witnesses, they arrive this evening, and we just tried to approach

16 Ms. Manas through our e-mail, and she is obviously not in her office so

17 we cannot bring her here right now.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, well. We'll see you again then on Monday with

19 all the witnesses, we hope.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Will that be enough to see us through to the end of

22 Tuesday, those witnesses?

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We have two victim witnesses. The

24 first one, we think, will take quite some time, and we have then the

25 second victim witness, and then Ms. Manas.

Page 1174

1 JUDGE HUNT: We will adjourn now until Monday, at 9.30.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.38 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of

4 November, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.