Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1298

1 Tuesday, 28 November 2000

2 [The accused entered court]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [Open session]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case number IT-97-25-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Thank

11 you.

12 WITNESS: FWS-111 [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]

15 Q. Good morning, sir. I think that the last thing we were discussing

16 yesterday was the population of the town of Foca and the municipality of

17 Foca, the actual number of inhabitants.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The witness' microphone is not on.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment, Mr. Bakrac. We better check we have

20 the right channels.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The channel is number 7, apparently, but we

22 can't hear anything.

23 JUDGE HUNT: The interpreters can't hear on channel 7. If the

24 booth could do something about that.

25 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we can't hear the Judge now either.

Page 1299

1 JUDGE HUNT: I was merely asking the deputy to do something.

2 THE REGISTRAR: The technician is working on that.

3 THE INTERPRETER: No, we can't hear him.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I think it may be best then if we take a short

5 adjournment whilst the technicians sort it all out. We better have it

6 right from the word go. We'll adjourn for a few moments.

7 --- Break taken at 9.45 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 9.52 a.m.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I cannot resist remarking, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, that

10 voice distortion does cause terrible problems. However, I believe that

11 everything is right.

12 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. So I would kindly ask the witness to repeat once again the number

15 of inhabitants of the municipality of Foca and the town itself.

16 A. Yes. I think that the census of 1991 showed that there was a

17 total population of 22.000. In percentage terms, Bosniaks accounted for

18 about 52 per cent; Serbs accounted for about 48 per cent, including 3 per

19 cent Montenegrins; and about 2 per cent did not declare themselves in that

20 way. All of these figures are tentative, I think.

21 Q. If I understand you correctly, sir, that means that in the area of

22 the entire municipality of Foca, there were some 12.000 to 13.000

23 Muslims.

24 A. In town itself, in terms of the total population, there was 13.000

25 people. But if we take the municipality as a whole, I already said.

Page 1300

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Perhaps I got a bit confused with these numbers. I'm not trying

3 to say anything very emphatically. Perhaps I've got this confused with

4 the figure of 48.000. I'm not too sure about this.

5 Q. When you say 48.000, are you speaking of the total population?

6 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's -- I mean, these figures go back a long

7 way, don't they. I didn't mention them since.

8 Q. Sir, the exact number is not important. You've given me an

9 answer.

10 Let us now go back to the SDA rally that you spoke about. You

11 said there were 100.000 persons present there. At that time, was there a

12 Muslim flag, a green one, and a Croat flag with the chessboard sign; were

13 they linked together? Was that the case there?

14 A. No, no. That happened in Sarajevo.

15 Q. Bearing in mind the fact that the SDA rally in Foca was the first

16 one held and attended by 100.000 persons while the entire municipality of

17 Foca has a Muslim population of about 20.000, didn't this lead to anxiety

18 on the part of the Serb population as well as the feeling of a lack of

19 safety and security; and you said that it was the other way around, that

20 the Muslim people felt unsafe and things like that?

21 A. No, I never said that any particular ethnic group was threatened

22 until then, or devalued in any way. Always some reasonable, tolerant

23 solutions were found. On the basis of subsequent events, we can draw a

24 conclusion as to who had what in mind.

25 Q. Sir, if we look at the entirety of the municipality of Foca, you

Page 1301

1 will agree with me that this was one of the biggest municipalities in the

2 former Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it has a population of 20.000 Muslims, and

3 it brings together 100.000 persons at a rally of a national party. You as

4 an intellectual can tell me, do you think that this is a signal, a sign

5 for anxiety, concern, a lack of safety and security?

6 A. No. No way. Not a single speech or anything could have led to

7 such an evaluation, nor should have that been a signal of that kind.

8 Sir, if you want me to give you an answer, it is certain that

9 other signals were more dominant for the opting of Serbs for war.

10 Q. You said that you did not attend the rally of the SDS. Do you

11 know perhaps whether at that rally, which was held at the city stadium,

12 whether Radovan Karadzic attended?

13 A. I can't remember that, and I don't know that really.

14 Q. You said to us yesterday that the policy of the SDA was to pursue

15 a policy that suited all persons, all persons only?

16 A. Yes, yes. All should enjoy all rights equally. All the rights

17 that are enjoyed by one ethnic group should be enjoyed by all other ethnic

18 groups, national minorities, everyone else. That was the only programme

19 that was there. After all, the then leadership of Bosnia-Herzegovina from

20 the ranks of the Bosniaks advocated for a long time the existence of

21 Yugoslavia; however, a Yugoslavia which would comprise both Croatia and

22 Serbia, but not an asymmetrical Yugoslavia. Bosnia and Herzegovina has

23 three ethnic groups, and if Bosnia-Herzegovina were to remain without one

24 of the three dominant ethnic groups, that would certainly disrupt the

25 balance in those terms.

Page 1302

1 Q. Sir, you said that the Party of Democratic Action was in favour in

2 Yugoslavia. Since you were involved in politics at that time, I cannot

3 but ask you whether there was a plan by Cuellar, and do you remember that

4 Radovan Karadzic signed it? It was an independent Bosnia subdivided into

5 Cantons, and this same option was refused at the same moment by Alija

6 Izetbegovic, and he refused to sign it?

7 A. I did not remember that really because I did not have enough time

8 to deal with the Cutiliero plan that extensively in terms of all of those

9 who were in favour of keeping a Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, I'll remind you. Please pause until the

11 translators have caught up on the question before you commence your

12 answer. If you have no way of hearing what the interpreters are doing,

13 perhaps you'll find the screen will help you. You will see that the

14 typing finishes, and when the typing finishes, then you may start your

15 answer. Thank you.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that the witness' monitor

17 is not on. We see that it's not on.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

19 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You said that you do not remember, and you just corrected me that

22 it wasn't Cuellar's plan, it was Cutiliero's plan. It seems that you

23 remember this very well, doesn't it?

24 A. I remember the name. It's imprinted in my memory because it was

25 repeated so many times. And I also could have slipped with the name in

Page 1303

1 terms of pronouncing the name.

2 Q. You said, sir, that the SDA made every effort to pursue a policy

3 that would suit all people. What about the Serbs who were almost 40 per

4 cent of the population of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Did secession suit them or

5 not?

6 JUDGE HUNT: All right. If you just watch the screen, you'll see

7 the typing finishes when the translation is finished. Now you may

8 answer.

9 A. Could you please clarify this? In what sense are you referring to

10 the secession of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Did the Serbs vote in the referendum on the secession of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina from Yugoslavia, yes/no?

14 A. No. No. The Serbs voted no.

15 Q. Isn't that in contradiction with the programme of the Party of

16 Democratic Action? You say that it pursued a policy that suited all the

17 citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 A. Sir, however, until then, for months and even a year perhaps,

19 negotiations were held already, first at the level of the former republics

20 or, rather, the presidents of the republics, later at the level of the

21 leadership of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Many agreements and discussions in

22 which people from elsewhere in the world participated in the desire to

23 help us, all these plans simply went down the drain because of the Serbs,

24 because the Serbs would not accept anything. They simply found it hard to

25 agree on anything. It was very difficult to reach agreement with them on

Page 1304

1 anything.

2 I shall remind you of their referendum in November 1991, when they

3 all voted in favour of having all the Serbs living in one state.

4 Q. Sir, does that mean that I'm not saying the truth when I say that

5 Radovan Karadzic accepted the Cutiliero plan?

6 A. No. I can't say whether you're saying the truth or not. Others

7 will decide on that. However, you are putting questions which are

8 arbitrary, in my opinion, at this point in time.

9 Q. Sir, yesterday you said that the situation in Bosnia or, rather,

10 in Foca, specifically before these conflicts broke out and before these

11 ethnic-based parties were founded, was harmonious, that the relations

12 between the Serbs and Muslims were more than satisfactory, and then the

13 Serbs wanting to live in one state all together, if I can put it that way,

14 disrupted all of these harmonious relations. Weren't the Serbs already

15 living in one state?

16 A. Yes, sir. If we look at the former Yugoslavia, I don't know

17 exactly when the Republic of Croatia voted in a referendum to separate

18 from the rest and Slovenia did it even before that, and then came the

19 referendum where the people of Bosnia-Herzegovina voted, to a large

20 extent, in favour of an independent state because the Serbs did not want

21 Croatia to remain within the framework of Yugoslavia.

22 I don't know what period you are referring to when you say that

23 the Serbs lived in one state. Yes. In the former Yugoslavia, yes, it was

24 one state. And now in this newly established state, there would be a part

25 which was that way before as well.

Page 1305

1 Q. Would that mean separating them from the rest of the Serb people

2 because they already lived in one state?

3 A. What do you mean?

4 Q. Would the separation of Bosnia-Herzegovina separate them from the

5 rest of their people living in another federal unit?

6 A. Yes. Yes. That meant that they would accept Bosnia-Herzegovina

7 as their state with certain links that would later be determined with this

8 other republic.

9 Q. You said that most of the people in Bosnia-Herzegovina opted for

10 an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you mean the Serbs when say this or only Croats and Muslims?

13 A. I mean Muslims, Croats, and probably some Serbs also thought

14 differently. Sir, not all Serbs opted in that way. A large number

15 certainly did. But may I prove this by saying that in all the big towns,

16 from the beginning of the aggression and war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

17 Serbs remained there and they live a normal life together with all the

18 rest of us, even nowadays.

19 Q. Sir, I have one more question for you in relation to the political

20 situation, the situation before the war conflict broke out. I am actually

21 guided by what you've said here. You said that you heard that Radovan

22 Karadzic, in one of his speeches, threatened that one people would

23 disappear. Am I making a mistake when I say that you are taking this out

24 of context? Do you remember that he said that, "If there is violent

25 secession, I'm afraid that one people will disappear"?

Page 1306

1 A. No. You are taking things out of context. He was issuing a

2 threat to have what the Serbs were proposing in parliament be accepted,

3 and that is why he was as categorical as I said yesterday.

4 Q. Do you remember what it was that the Serbs were proposing in

5 parliament?

6 A. At all levels, ever since the multi-party system was established,

7 all accommodation of views with Serbs were ever difficult on the

8 republican and federal levels. They were all obstructing things,

9 obstructing them and obstructing them. I think they were just trying to

10 gain in time so that people could get armed, so that all military

11 formations could be deployed properly, and so that they could do what was

12 done.

13 Q. Sir, could you please tell me, since you were a member of the

14 Democratic Action Party, was there a Crisis Staff of that party?

15 A. No. At the local level in Foca there was no Crisis Staff because

16 that would mean automatically something was not normal.

17 Q. Did I understand properly that there was something not normal at a

18 higher level?

19 A. Well, I don't know whether there was a Crisis Staff at the

20 republican level. You know that Mrs. Plavcic when she was forming the

21 presidency was in charge of the people's defence in the former presidency.

22 Q. Did the interrogators in KP Dom ask you whether there was a Crisis

23 Staff, and what did you tell them?

24 A. Yes, they asked me, and I told them I don't know. I asked them

25 also whether they know where their Crisis Staff is, and they didn't say

Page 1307

1 anything to that.

2 Q. But you didn't say that there was no Crisis Staff, but you said

3 that you didn't know where it was?

4 A. Well, this implies that it does exist. Who would be comprising

5 this Crisis Staff when all of the Muslim population was totally

6 disorganised, they were fleeing, they were fearing capture or getting

7 killed and so on. So in a state of chaos like that, who would be able to

8 form some Crisis Staff, and what would such a Crisis Staff mean? Nothing.

9 Q. Are you telling me that Muslims did not organise themselves before

10 war broke out?

11 A. Absolutely. This is a fact. Not at the level of Foca, but at the

12 level of Bosnia and Herzegovina, because if the Muslim people had the

13 potential or the option of defending themselves, perhaps the suffering in

14 the war would be less and the war would not have lasted so long. Of

15 course, if we rule out the help of Serbia and Montenegro as well, which

16 was evident.

17 Q. I didn't understand you quite properly: If the Muslims were armed

18 the war would not last as long.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Well, this is not logical since they were not armed and the Serbs

21 had help from Yugoslavia, probably this war would be shorter?

22 A. Well, the war would have been shorter if the forces were more or

23 less equal, and by logic everybody then would be more cautious in

24 attacking. How can you then justify that 250.000 people went through

25 camps, and 200.000 Bosniaks were killed?

Page 1308












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1309

1 Q. Are you quite sure about the fact that you have just stated?

2 A. Well, yes, this is a rough estimate. We could be talking about a

3 difference of 5.000 in the figure, but this is not so important.

4 Q. Is it true that you told the security centre in Sarajevo in your

5 statement that Muslim forces held Donje Polje from the 4th of April to the

6 16th of April, 1992, and also stated precisely from the street of Ivan

7 Goran Kovacic to KP Dom?

8 A. Yes, that's true. This is a small area, while the rest of the

9 town area and the rest of the municipality was in the hands of the Serbs.

10 Q. Is it true that Muslims in that period also held KP Dom?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Do you know a person called Senad Sahinpasic called Saja?

13 A. Yes, I know him. I never got on well with him in any thinking in

14 our views and in anything else.

15 Q. Why did you disagree with him?

16 A. Simply, I had no opportunity to convince him of a different way of

17 thinking. Time did not permit me that or the nature of my work, and so

18 on. Also, his education and his view of things was completely different

19 to mine. He was uneducated. It was difficult to persuade him or convince

20 him of some logical things.

21 Let me just mention one thing: The stage or the podium where the

22 promotional gathering was held, for example, he sold that to another town

23 without asking anyone. And I know that many meetings were held in order

24 to question why -- question him why he did that on his own initiative.

25 And there were so many irrational meetings held by the SDA which I

Page 1310

1 considered irrational, and that is why at the end of 1991 I withdrew from

2 such irrational meetings.

3 Q. Do you know, and is it true, that after the war, Sahinpasic became

4 a politician in the assembly or in the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. Before the aggression he was also a member of the parliament in

6 the multiparty elections, and later as well, that is true; but it's true

7 that he never made any public speeches.

8 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that the same gentleman stated in

9 the public media as well as in parliament and confirmed when and how he

10 started to arm the Muslim population of Foca?

11 A. No, no. I really don't know anything about that statement of

12 his. I didn't hear it, and I didn't read it.

13 Q. Sir, can you tell me if you know whether the house of Milorad

14 Krnojelac -- well, you've already told us where it is exactly, but is it

15 true that it belongs to the Donje Polje neighbourhood?

16 A. Yes. If we look at the street of Ivan Goran Kovacic up to KP Dom,

17 I think that is all part of Donje Polje.

18 Q. We will now come back to KP Dom. Would you please tell me, you

19 mentioned here that on the 18th of April, two guards talked amongst

20 themselves about the fact that Milorad Krnojelac was appointed as warden.

21 Can you please tell me the names of those two guards because you mentioned

22 that you know them?

23 A. Yes. One of them was called Elcic, and the other -- I can't

24 remember the name of the other one. The other one, I didn't recognise

25 because I listened to that conversation through the door.

Page 1311

1 Q. You mentioned a certain person called Babic. What is his

2 ethnicity?

3 A. A Muslim from the Cohodor Mahala neighbourhood where many

4 Bosniaks, Bosniak civilians were killed.

5 Q. You mentioned here that after Room 12 you were transferred to Room

6 23. Do you remember that you told investigators from the office of the

7 Prosecution that you were transferred to Room 21 in the statements that

8 you gave?

9 A. It's possible that I confused the numbers. It's a fact that this

10 was at the top of building 2, and that's Room 23. But I don't rule out

11 that later, while changing, while the police made me change my rooms, I

12 perhaps spent some time in that room as well.

13 Q. Could you please tell me what is true, that you went to Room 23

14 after Room 23 [sic]?

15 A. Yes. After Room 12 I went to Room 23.

16 Q. Was it in the left or right wing of building 2?

17 A. If you look from the yard, then it was in the right wing of

18 building 2.

19 Q. Sir, you told us here yesterday that you lost 40 kilograms in

20 KP Dom.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do I need to remind you that you told the investigators from the

23 OTP that you lost 20 kilograms in KP Dom?

24 A. Excuse me, but if I probably had weighed 64 kilograms and then

25 when I was weighed in the infirmary four years later I had 44 kilos, then

Page 1312

1 we know our maths. Perhaps yesterday I made a mistake in the number. So

2 this is actually -- we're talking about 20 kilograms, and I apologise if

3 yesterday I stated that I had lost 40 kilograms.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. We've cleared that up now.

5 You also stated that at the time that you were transferred to Kula

6 or were supposed to be transferred to Kula that you were getting more

7 food, one more slice of bread, but you also mentioned that the number of

8 detainees dropped from 600 to 70.

9 A. To about 85.

10 Q. You also said that you think that bad food was given on purpose.

11 Isn't it logical for food to improve when the numbers drop drastically and

12 that it doesn't make sense that this is done deliberately because then

13 they would also continue to provide bad food?

14 A. No. No. The way this was all done, making our life more

15 difficult, to have a certain number of people die of natural causes, die a

16 natural death. And this was also stated for me, so that on the separation

17 line, Serb soldiers distributed flyers where there was my name, my first

18 name and last name, and it was stated there that I had died. My parents

19 received this news there, 86 years old now, and also my brother heard

20 about that.

21 So this was the objective of those who were doing this, reduce our

22 food and then to have a certain number of people go to their death in a

23 different way.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I don't like to have to keep on interrupting, but you

25 really are not assisting the translators, sir. If you would watch the

Page 1313

1 screen and wait for the typing to finish before you answer the question.

2 That very long answer of yours there came in well before the translators

3 had finished. Now, you are making it very difficult for them and for us.

4 So please do watch the screen.

5 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. If that is so, sir, why then when the number dropped would they

8 improve the food, if that is the objective, as you say? That is not

9 logical.

10 A. Well, I didn't understand you.

11 Q. You said that the purpose was to starve people. That was the

12 plan. Why did the food improve when the number of detainees dropped?

13 A. They saw that we were quite endangered. There was different

14 thinking about this. They were left with a lot of sick people.

15 I would want to mention -- I mentioned a sort of trick by a

16 medical technician who went out with a police officer to all the rooms to

17 write down what different people were ailing from, stating that these sick

18 people would be exchanged. This was in September 1992. But they stayed.

19 I will mention a man who was suffering from palsy, and he had to

20 use crutches to walk. That person stayed, and he was then exchanged for a

21 Serb fighter.

22 Q. Sir, you mentioned a person called Kunovac yesterday. Can you

23 tell me how much time passed since the time he was brought to KP Dom to

24 the time of his death?

25 A. From 20 to 22 days.

Page 1314

1 Q. This is the person you said died from internal bleeding. You

2 diagnosed that.

3 A. Yes. This was an assumption based on the fact that my colleague

4 performed a more detailed examination which indicated that this could be

5 the cause. And also his clinical picture, the paleness of his face, of

6 his -- the whites of his eyes, exhaustion, his inability to stand up

7 straight also pointed to such a diagnostic assumption.

8 Q. In that period of those 20 days did anybody beat him?

9 A. No. While he was in the room with us he was not beaten.

10 Q. Yesterday you mentioned that the brothers Konjo were beaten. Can

11 you tell us where this was done?

12 A. This was done in the administrative building or in the corrections

13 building that we mentioned many times yesterday. So on the ground floor

14 of that building.

15 Q. You mentioned yesterday that on the ground floor of that building

16 there was a room with a kind of column and also items for tying the

17 extremities. Did you know about that room?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You spoke about Esad Hadzic and Esad Kiselica yesterday, but I

20 don't think it was quite clear, so I would like you to explain. Esad

21 Hadzic, what was his profession and what happened to him? And also Esad

22 Kiselica, what was his profession and what happened to him later?

23 A. Yes. I'm glad you asked that question so we can clarify that

24 today. Esad Hadzic worked in the automobile society. He was a driver and

25 also a craftsman there. Esad Kiselica worked in the electrical utility

Page 1315

1 company. The first person, we explained how he died early, and the second

2 one was taken out in one of groups and killed.

3 Q. Do you know that he was killed or is it not known what happened to

4 him later?

5 A. I use that term "killed" because people cannot live eight years

6 after that under the ground or in the air. You have to accept something

7 that is objective, something that is already a fact.

8 Q. Sir, for your information, the Defence here does not contest the

9 fact that these people are no longer among the living. We're only

10 interested in the manner and the place where this happened, and I'm asking

11 you the following: Did you see this? Do you know where this murder was

12 committed or not?

13 A. No. No. I couldn't see that. I was surrounded by high walls

14 that had barbed wire on the top, that are surrounded by minefields. This

15 crime was carried out in a very organised way, in a very skilful way. Out

16 of the 400 people that were taken away, nobody managed to escape, and this

17 is -- this really confirms in the best way how organised this whole act

18 was.

19 Q. You said yesterday, sir, that certain persons were taken out and

20 that since they were not heard of after that, you asked the guards what

21 had happened to them because you hadn't heard from them. Could they

22 actually get in contact with you from outside?

23 A. No. People who would be exchanged to the front line could send

24 messages. The police would find out that somebody had remained alive, had

25 been exchanged, and this led to hope on our part, but it also confused

Page 1316

1 us. If it was said, for example, that two persons were mentioned, then we

2 wondered what happened to a large number of others.

3 Q. Are you trying to tell me that anybody could have gotten in touch

4 with you?

5 A. No, no way.

6 Q. But how could you say, then, that you were wondering why they did

7 not get in contact with you later?

8 A. Well, it was logical that we would be registered with the Red

9 Cross and that messages could follow, because wasn't that necessary?

10 Mr. Bakrac, you answer me now.

11 Q. No, sir. I'm the one who puts questions here, and you're the one

12 who gives answers.

13 Sir, could you please be so kind as to say why you went to Livade

14 via Prevrac?

15 A. Well, it was really up to the group of armed men who were taking

16 us. And perhaps I could explain that it was risky to take us along the

17 main road because Aladza dzamija was a target then. So as we were moving

18 along the hillock of Prevrac, shells could be heard as they hit the Dom of

19 the Aladza mosque.

20 Q. Does that mean that you would pass through Muslim checkpoints or

21 forces en route if you were to take the shortest route?

22 A. No, no. That belonged to Livade. There was no resistance there.

23 Q. Does that mean that the route that you took was the shortest one?

24 A. No, no. But this was planned by the army that took us there.

25 Q. So why did they make that kind of plan, to take a much longer

Page 1317

1 route?

2 A. I don't know. Ask them.

3 Q. Sir, did I understand you correctly that apart from this first

4 incident when one of the members of the guard corps slapped you in the

5 face and the other one hit you on the back with his baton, that you were

6 never physically mistreated again?

7 A. No, I was never physically mistreated again, and I said that

8 yesterday. In this camp, in this camp. I was in Kula, though.

9 Q. You mentioned a person whose name and surname I think I can

10 mention, Dr. Aziz Torlak, was he physically mistreated or was he hurt in

11 any way in KP Dom in Foca?

12 A. Yes, as far as I know, and we were together often. He had a sharp

13 discussion with Pero Elez which led to great fear on his part. He put a

14 knife to his throat. He went to take the documents related to his car

15 which had remained within the hospital compound, and that's how it ended.

16 Q. So as far as you know, that is the only thing that happened to

17 Dr. Aziz Torlak in Foca to the best of your knowledge?

18 A. Yes, yes. And as we said yesterday, he was taken away on the 7th

19 of July. After him, other prisoners from the camp in Foca were brought to

20 Kula, and they brought me there. And they asked, "Where is Aziz Torlak,"

21 and I said that he never came here.

22 Q. You said yesterday, sir, that you asked the guards when you heard

23 who the warden was to ask the warden to release you from the isolation

24 cell. How many days later did that happen?

25 A. After four days and four nights that I spent in that cell.

Page 1318

1 Q. Is it correct that you stated to the investigators of the OTP that

2 the members of the guard corps were those who decided who would go to

3 isolation cells and who would not?

4 A. No. No, that's not what I said. I only said that I was taken to

5 the isolation cell by the members of the guard corps. As for people who

6 were in other cells in building 2, others decided about that: the police

7 and those who were in contact with the police.

8 Q. Since you've given me this answer, I'm going to read to you now

9 what it says that you stated to the investigators of the OTP.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Bakrac please slow down.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, once you start to read, you do speed up.

12 Please show down.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Can we have a reference also, please, as to

14 where he is reading from.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, sir. I just wanted to

16 read a short sentence, and that's why I did this.

17 JUDGE HUNT: It's still being read very quickly. The interpreters

18 would also like to know what the document is because they would like to

19 follow it if they have it.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I already

21 mentioned that it is a very simple question, and that is why I did not

22 give any references. This is the statement made on the 20th of October,

23 1998, given to the investigators of the Tribunal. It is page number 2,

24 the last line in the last paragraph.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 1319












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Page 1320

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. "One guard from Uzice was deciding on who would be placed in

3 isolation cells."

4 A. However, it does not say precisely there which period is being

5 referred to. I was referring to the period when I was in Room 11, those

6 two days.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.


9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The original document is in English, was in

10 English, and it's a different text in the English. It says in the English

11 version, "A guard from Uzice made the decision that I was to be put in

12 solitary confinement." That is the original.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but you're suggesting, are you, that the

14 statement was made in English? It wasn't, was it?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. It's the statement of the

16 investigators of the Tribunal, and it was made in English.

17 JUDGE HUNT: You mean this is not the witness's statement?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, it's a witness. It's the witness

19 statement.


21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But it was --

22 JUDGE HUNT: And the witness statement would have been made in

23 B/C/S, translated at the time into English, and he signed the English

24 document, but it was originally given by him in B/C/S.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, that's true, Your Honour.

Page 1321

1 JUDGE HUNT: That's true. Well, you then provide a B/C/S version

2 of it to the Defence, don't you?


4 JUDGE HUNT: Which is not the same, necessarily the same B/C/S

5 version that the statement was given in, in the first place.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I only want to mention --

7 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, but I'm trying to get you to face up to the

8 problem here. The witness gives his version in B/C/S. It's translated

9 into English, and recorded in a document. He signs the document. You

10 then have somebody else translate, or maybe the same person, translate the

11 English document back into B/C/S to serve on the Defence.


13 JUDGE HUNT: And as we have discovered in other cases, they are

14 sometimes quite different because it's been through two processes of

15 translation.

16 Now, what, as I understand it, Mr. Bakrac is reading from is the

17 third of those documents or the third version, the one which had been

18 given to them as a B/C/S version of the English translation of what the

19 witness originally said in B/C/S.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, he is entitled, is he not, to rely upon

22 the document which you've given him as the true, correct B/C/S version,

23 which may or may not be correct, but is he not entitled to rely upon it?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, yes, Your Honour, but I --

25 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, why are you drawing our attention to

Page 1322

1 another version of it?

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Because this is actually the original version

3 of the document as it was and as it was signed.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think we've been around this one before. You

5 are in grave difficulty in every case when you try to say that what was

6 said is in the document which was signed. We all know the way in which

7 the statements were obtained. It is a faulty process, as I have said

8 before, and you cannot, if I may say so, say that the English version is

9 necessarily the correct one.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, your remarks about the process

11 are right.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Unfortunately. Very unfortunately.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes. But the only thing that I wanted

14 to point out is the signed version of the document, the English that was

15 signed, is slightly different from what the Defence had, and, therefore, I

16 just wanted to mention this.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if I may say so, that will be very interesting

18 later on, but I don't think you can criticise Mr. Bakrac for relying upon

19 the document that was given to the Defence. That's all I'm saying. So

20 may I suggest you raise it later.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, but I just wanted to say I

22 didn't want to criticise Mr. Bakrac, I only wanted to give this to your

23 attention. It was not a criticism.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Then really it is a matter for later on.

25 You proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

Page 1323

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Sir, how did you conclude this? Because you said in the same

3 statement that since you were transferred from the isolation cell after

4 four days, you thought that the authority of Mr. Krnojelac was

5 considerable. Isn't it logical, if he had such authority, that you would

6 be transferred from the isolation cell immediately?

7 A. Yes. He had absolute authority over everything that was happening

8 in the camp. I believe that there is no contest with regard to that. Why

9 he did not let me out earlier, I can make no comment about that. I mean,

10 before I made a request myself.

11 Q. We are not talking about this. We are talking about the period

12 from when you made your request until you were released, which is a

13 four-day period. You know exactly that he was the one who said that you

14 should be released?

15 A. Yes. The policeman came and said, "Please go out. The warden

16 gave his permission." We asked whether we could be taken back to Room 11

17 where I was taken out of originally, and he said, "No. You will now be

18 taken to Room number 12."

19 Q. Why didn't you say this in any one of the statements that you made

20 to the investigators of the Tribunal, and why didn't you say this

21 yesterday when you were testifying about these facts?

22 A. Yesterday we did not discuss these facts that precisely, because

23 we cannot go on forever like this. We tried to focus on important

24 matters. Although, this is important, it seems to me, for you. I said

25 what is important.

Page 1324

1 Q. Sir, tell me now who this policeman was, the one who told you

2 that.

3 A. I told you a few minutes ago that his name was Elcic, because

4 right at the entrance into the building there is an area where the

5 policeman on duty is.

6 Q. No. A few minutes ago, to me you said that Elcic talked to

7 someone else on the 18th, that the warden --

8 A. Yes, but when I was released four days later, he was on duty again

9 at that particular place of work.

10 Q. Tell me, sir, you said yesterday that when Nurko Nisic was

11 injured, that you assisted him and that he was in your room. Which room

12 was this exactly?

13 A. Room 12.

14 Q. Is it also correct that you stated to the investigators of the OTP

15 that Zelenovic, nicknamed Zelja, came to the KP Dom and that he was a

16 military policeman?

17 A. Yes. Yes. He beat the late Nurko Nisic. He repeated that

18 several times, Nurko, when he was coming back from this torture.

19 Q. Sir, when you spoke about the guard Elcic, is this Milenko Elcic?

20 A. Yes. Yes. You just said his name now.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to show

22 Prosecution exhibit -- this Prosecution exhibit which shows that Milenko

23 Elcic assumed his duties in the KP Dom on the 23rd of April, 1992. The

24 number is 34.

25 A. Yes. It says Elcic, Vasilije Milenko, number 34, his date of his

Page 1325

1 birth, year of his birth, 1951. This other date, the 23rd or 24th, there

2 is no heading for this particular column, what this relates to, whether

3 that is the date when he assumed his duties.

4 If I said that I was released from solitary confinement on the

5 23rd, 24th, after four days, this really fits in. The time of his stay

6 fits into the time when I was released from there. But that doesn't mean

7 that this date is that precise in terms of his return to work or, rather,

8 when he joined. The question is when this document was actually

9 established or, rather, when these files were being kept on the guards.

10 Q. Sir, it's true that you said that on the 23rd or 24th - so four

11 days later - you were released from the isolation cell, but you also said

12 that on the 18th of April you heard how Elcic, with another guard, was

13 talking about who was appointed warden, and this documentation, it was set

14 up later according to the information of when certain guards began their

15 work and when they finished it. So this is proof that was given to the

16 Defence by the Prosecution.

17 A. Yes. You gave a correct answer regarding this. This document was

18 set up later. So Mr. Elcic could have been, on the 18th or the 19th, on

19 this job, doing these duties that we described.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Just one minute. I'm sorry, I did not see you

21 standing up.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Objection, Your Honour, because that is not

23 what the witness said yesterday. The witness said yesterday he came to

24 the KP Dom on the 17th. He stayed in Room 11 for two days. Then he was

25 in the isolation cell and there he --

Page 1326

1 JUDGE HUNT: For four days.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And he heard, when he was in the

3 isolation cell - that means after the 19th - that the guards spoke about

4 Mr. Krnojelac being the warden from the 18th onward. He didn't hear that

5 on the 18th.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. I think that's right, Mr. Bakrac. But I'm

7 wondering where this is getting us, this cross-examination. The witness

8 has got a very clear view of it. He asked your client to be released and

9 he was not released immediately. Now, how can he say why he was not

10 released immediately? You're putting to him it was because your client

11 had no power to do so. He disputes that.

12 Now, we've been around and around and around that issue in this

13 cross-examination. Where are we going, except in circles?

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we're checking the

15 credibility of the witness with this question. If you permit me just a

16 minute, I will find this section that we were just talking about now.

17 That's one thing.

18 The other thing is that the witness is drawing conclusions from

19 the facts that he really doesn't know. So --

20 JUDGE HUNT: I think you really should leave us to worry about

21 that. We can understand that he's drawing conclusions. The questions

22 that he is being asked invite him, in many cases, to draw conclusions.

23 You have been asking him to draw all sorts of conclusions all morning

24 about politics and all sorts of things, and I don't think that the witness

25 can be blamed for expressing his conclusions to you in answer to these

Page 1327

1 current questions.

2 We can understand he's drawing conclusions. His conclusion may be

3 right, it may be wrong. But the issue here, so far as this witness can

4 give evidence, is that his perception was your client was the warden and

5 had complete power.

6 Now, you can argue with him all day and all night about that, but

7 that's what his perception was at the time, unless you can produce some

8 evidence to the contrary. And it's his perception is all that the

9 Prosecution is putting him forward for. And they have put forward a

10 number of witnesses and no doubt will put forward some other witnesses to

11 say that their perception was the same. In the end, we have to determine

12 whether that perception is right or wrong on the actual facts of the

13 case. But you're not going to get very far, if I may say so, if you argue

14 with each as to whether or not they had the means of knowledge.

15 By all means, challenge them on it, suggest to them they really

16 didn't know what it was. If you've got some other particular matter to

17 put to the witness, do so, but you are trying to persuade the witness that

18 he was wrong and that's not going to help us very much. What you've got

19 to do is persuade us that he's wrong. I put that as a question of onus, which

20 is wrong, but you have to suggest to us that he is wrong. You don't have

21 to convince the witness himself that he's wrong. Do you see the

22 distinction?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see the difference,

24 and I think that his understanding and his views of the factual questions

25 posed by the Defence can help the Court. So I do not wish for the witness

Page 1328

1 to draw conclusions for himself but for the Trial Chamber so that we could

2 assess the value of these conclusions. I also think the Defence has the

3 right to ask the witness to give conclusions to questions that are

4 relevant for the Defence, not only for the Prosecution.

5 JUDGE HUNT: That is so, Mr. Bakrac, but you cannot complain when

6 you have spent over an hour this morning asking him to draw conclusions,

7 asking him specifically to draw conclusions about political matters and he

8 continues to draw conclusions in relation to your following questions.

9 That's all I'm pointing out to you.

10 And your present cross-examination, so far as I can understand it,

11 is more directed to persuading or attempting to persuade the witness that

12 he's wrong. Now, all I'm saying to you is that will get us nowhere. It

13 really won't. But if you want him to answer questions without drawing

14 conclusions about a matter, then we will direct him not to draw

15 conclusions but just tell him what he knew.

16 Sometimes witnesses don't understand the distinction. It is a

17 difficult one, even for some lawyers to understand, but we will attempt to

18 do so. But you have, if I may say so, attempted to have it both ways in

19 your cross-examination, so the witness is understandably in a difficult

20 position.

21 Well, it's two minutes two. I think we might take the break, and

22 we will resume at 11.30.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

Page 1329

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I only have

2 a couple of questions more for this witness, and I hope we will be through

3 quite quickly.

4 Q. Before the break we talked about the guard Elcic. Is that the

5 guard that you asked to take you to the warden of KP Dom?

6 A. No. I asked to be released through this guard, but I can't

7 remember which guard took me to talk with the warden which took place a

8 few days later.

9 Q. Sir, perhaps we didn't understand each other well enough. I

10 didn't ask you who took you to the warden, but did you ask the guard Elcic

11 that the warden received you?

12 A. No. I can't remember whether I asked him or someone else. I did

13 ask him to be released from the isolation cell.

14 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in a statement to the office of the

15 Prosecutor, to an investigator, of the 20th September 1998, in paragraph 6

16 you stated -- excuse me, paragraph 7, "I don't know whether Krnojelac had

17 any kind of function in the former JNA. When I met him in the camp

18 between the 18th and the 20th of April, 1992, he was decent towards me.

19 He didn't say that he was the commander, the warden." Is it true that you

20 stated this?

21 A. These first two questions are correct. The third question, that

22 he did not tell me that he was the commander, I didn't ask him, nor did I

23 dare ask him that.

24 Q. Sir, I'm asking you whether you signed, read, whether you gave a

25 statement to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor on the 20th

Page 1330












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Page 1331

1 of October, 1998?

2 A. Which part do you mean, which part of the statement?

3 Q. First of all tell me whether you did give this statement that I

4 just mentioned.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In paragraph 7, the last sentence, "He did not say he was the

7 commander," does that mean that you did not state this?

8 A. I have just told you that I did not ask him, nor could I ask him,

9 nor did he give me a question to that effect -- an answer to that effect.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, the answer couldn't have been clearer.

11 He is simply saying that he was never told by your client that he was the

12 commander, and he's repeated that here. What is the point of this?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I don't have any more questions like

14 this, Your Honour. He just stated he didn't see him, and that he did not

15 tell him.

16 JUDGE HUNT: That's right, and he said it twice now. But you've

17 given two different dates of that statement, you've given the 20th of

18 September and the 20th of October. Can you just tell us which one it is?

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. This is

20 the 20th of October, 1998.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Is it true that in this same statement that I quoted from just now

24 you've stated in paragraph 6, the last two sentences on the same page,

25 page 2: "I don't know whether Krnojelac became a member of the SDS before

Page 1332

1 the war. I did not see him at any of the rallies of the SDS before the

2 war"?

3 A. Yes. I did not see him at meetings of the SDS, but just the very

4 fact.

5 Allow me to clarify your question. The fact itself that he was

6 appointed to a very responsible post makes it clear that he was a member

7 of the SDS. So this is beyond dispute, because the SDS would not appoint

8 somebody that they did not trust.

9 JUDGE HUNT: That's a very good example of the witness drawing a

10 conclusion, but I think that we've already got that point. He gave that

11 evidence in chief, and I remember at the time thinking, well, that's a

12 conclusion which may or may not be a fair one, but it's, nevertheless, a

13 conclusion.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't seek such an

15 answer. I do not wish to interrupt the witness, but if you permit me, I

16 can interrupt the witness. I'm only interested in whether he's stated

17 what I have just quoted, but his conclusions, I didn't ask for that. I

18 just wanted to know whether it was true, what I just quoted.

19 A. Can I say something else relating to this question of yours, in

20 view of the nature of the work, of my work, and that was a primary thing.

21 The secondary thing was my activity in the party.

22 Do you think that I was able to follow whether this or that person

23 attended a meeting of the SDS or not? Primarily, I had no other problems

24 regarding this. This is something that wouldn't bother me at all.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether we

Page 1333

1 need to continue with these conclusions. I have already asked my question

2 and I have received an answer.

3 JUDGE HUNT: You ask your next question.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Is it true that in the same statement that I'm quoting from, on

6 page 4, paragraph 3, the third sentence, you stated: "I never saw

7 Krnojelac there where they were holding us"?

8 A. No. I don't remember making such a statement. That cannot be

9 so. This is unfounded if that is what it says. I stated yesterday when I

10 saw him, on which occasions. I saw him several times moving in the prison

11 complex with his associates and from the rooms that I was transferred to.

12 Q. You didn't understand me. Did you ever see him in buildings 1 and

13 2 where you were accommodated?

14 A. No. He didn't come into these buildings. A commander would not.

15 Q. Thank you for this answer.

16 A. Let me clarify. He had subordinates who would come and get the

17 inmates.

18 Q. Sir, can you please tell me whether the name Muhamed Kameric means

19 anything to you?

20 A. I knew that man and I knew that he disappeared, nothing more.

21 Q. Where did he disappear? Where did he disappear from?

22 A. I think he disappeared from the camp, in one of those groups that

23 were mentioned.

24 Q. Do you remember --

25 A. Excuse me. Excuse me. I am -- I have mixed him up with Abdulah

Page 1334

1 Kameric.

2 Q. Do you know Muhamed Kameric?

3 A. Muhamed Kameric called Meca.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. He is known by his nickname.

6 Q. Did you see him shortly before you were taken to Livade, and where

7 did you see him?

8 A. Yes. Yes. He was also captured by the Serbian Territorial

9 Defence, and he was taken to the medical centre.

10 Q. What was his he ethnicity?

11 A. Bosniak.

12 Q. What did he wear? What did he wear?

13 A. I can't recall, because often they put me into the cellar when

14 they would talk to him.

15 Q. Does that mean you didn't see him at all?

16 A. Oh, yes, I did see him. I saw him at one moment.

17 Q. What was he wearing since you saw him one moment?

18 A. I really cannot recall. I think he had some kind of dirty

19 clothing on. Perhaps I should clarify this a bit more, his case. Would

20 you like me to do that?

21 Q. No thank you. I'm just going to remind you of the following, the

22 statement that you gave to the security centre in Sarajevo: That you saw

23 a person named Kameric, Muhamed in an olive-green camouflage uniform, with

24 two grenades, and he was brought to the health centre and escaped from

25 there.

Page 1335

1 A. Yes. Yes. That is not very different from the answer I gave a

2 few minutes ago.

3 Q. Thank you. So what I quoted to you now is correct, right?

4 A. Yes, it is correct. And also what I said a few minutes ago.

5 There is no meaningful difference.

6 Q. Is it correct that in your statement given to the investigators of

7 the Tribunal - oh, I beg your pardon - the OTP on the -- in 1996, that you

8 said, on page 8, the first paragraph, the sentence starts as follows:

9 "Kovac was commander of the Hercegovina Corps. I don't know what

10 happened to him. I know that he originally came from the village of

11 Mazoce and that he was an officer of the former JNA. I heard from Nezir

12 Cengic, Fehim Cengic, and Hilmo Cengic that Kovac was a short man and

13 strict. They spoke to him at the KP Dom sometime in April 1993. After my

14 complaints, minor changes occurred. Nothing special, but at least it was

15 a bit better." Is what I just read out to you correct?

16 A. Your question is too long. Let's take this one thing at a time.

17 Part of this is correct, that I did say that Mr. Kovac commanded the

18 Herzegovina Corps which brought together in that period all the military

19 formations from Foca to Trebinje, and that he is from that village that

20 you mentioned, that that's how the mentioned Cengics described him.

21 Part of your question was whether something had gotten better. I

22 don't understand that very well. Could you reformulate your question,

23 please?

24 Q. Very well. I'm not going to formulate any questions; I'm going to

25 read what you stated. "They spoke to him at the KP Dom sometime in April

Page 1336

1 1993. After my complaints, some minor changes occurred. Nothing special,

2 but at least it was a bit better."

3 A. No, this last thing, I cannot remember that. Well, it's possible,

4 but I think that at this point in time it is insignificant. Whether it

5 was January or February, as I said yesterday, when these people went to be

6 exchanged, or whether it was April which you are mentioning right now, I

7 cannot be very precise about that, either. At any rate, everything else

8 is correct.

9 Q. Thank you. Tell me something else: Is it true that you stated

10 that on Radio Foca you heard general mobilisation being proclaimed for all

11 Serbs between the ages of 17 to 65, and a large number responded?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination?

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You may now

18 leave.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE HUNT: Is 162 the next witness?

21 MS. KUO: Yes, it is, Your Honour. And he does not have voice

22 distortion, so I think the microphones need to be exchanged.

23 JUDGE HUNT: That won't take a moment to switch it all off.

24 I see the estimate is three and a half hours in chief. Do you

25 think we're going to finish today?

Page 1337

1 MS. KUO: We hope so, Your Honour.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE HUNT: Would you take the solemn declaration, sir.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Sit down, please.

9 Examined by Ms. Kuo:

10 Q. Good morning, sir.

11 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher --

12 A. Good morning.

13 MS. KUO: -- I'd like to have this witness shown Prosecution

14 Exhibit 404, which should be under seal.

15 JUDGE HUNT: You mean the document which is identified as 404

16 which you will then tender as an exhibit?

17 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. We wish to have this tendered as an

18 exhibit.

19 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit P404, and it will be under seal.

20 MS. KUO:

21 Q. Witness, do you see the letters and number FWS-162?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And under that, do you see your name?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Under that, is that your birth date?

Page 1338

1 A. Exactly.

2 Q. Witness, you have been granted protective measures so that your

3 name will not be used during the course of the trial. Instead, we will

4 refer to you throughout by that witness number, 162. Do you understand?

5 Yes? Thank you.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sir, are you married?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you have any children?

10 A. Two.

11 Q. Are they -- is that a son and a daughter?

12 A. Yes, a son and a daughter.

13 Q. What ethnicity are you?

14 A. Muslim. Bosniak, as it's called nowadays.

15 Q. I see that you're a little bit nervous. Did you --

16 A. No, no.

17 Q. Okay. You can relax and just answer the questions, okay?

18 Before the war, where did you live?

19 A. In Foca.

20 Q. And before the war, what kind of job did you have? You don't need

21 to tell us the name of the company you worked with, but what was your --

22 what type of work did you do?

23 A. Manager of a company.

24 Q. When did the war in Foca start?

25 A. On the 8th of April, 1992.

Page 1339

1 Q. Before that date, did you have any indication that a war might be

2 coming?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you have any indication that certain parts of the population

5 were leaving Foca?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell us what you saw?

8 A. Well, I simply saw that my neighbours were taking their children

9 away. There were no children playing around the building where I lived.

10 Also in my company, half of the women didn't come to work; they took their

11 children away. I mean, outside Foca.

12 Q. Was there a particular ethnicity that was taking their children

13 out, or was it a mixed group?

14 A. A mixed group, both one and the other.

15 Q. Did you move your family out of Foca?

16 A. I did four or five days before. But I came to work, I came to

17 work, eight kilometres away.

18 Q. Why did you move your family out of Foca?

19 A. Well, it's simple. My son was disabled, and that's what my wife

20 suggested, that we should get the child out. I did not have any other

21 reason.

22 Q. What were you afraid of?

23 A. Well, what can I tell you? I was hoping that this war would not

24 happen and that all of this would not happen. However, I saw that there

25 were no children to be seen around town. Then I decided that, yeah, well,

Page 1340

1 they could go to our weekend cottage for a few days.

2 Q. Did you see on television or read or hear in other media about

3 attacks?

4 A. On television. I watched it on television, and I read about it in

5 the newspapers.

6 Q. What did you see and read?

7 A. Well, I saw, for example, when they entered Bijeljina, Arkan's

8 men, these units, when they got into Bijeljina, when they were burning and

9 killing and things like that.

10 Q. Was that before or after the 8th of April?

11 A. Before the 8th of April.

12 Q. Where did you move your family?

13 A. Suba, eight kilometres away from Foca. That's where it is

14 approximately.

15 Q. Now, you mentioned that you continued to come to work. Why did

16 you do that?

17 A. Yes. Well, I had obligations in my company.

18 Q. Were there particular obligations that you felt responsible for

19 during this time?

20 A. Yes, these were reserves, the republican and municipal reserves,

21 and I was responsible for them. They were in warehouses.

22 Q. When you say reserves, what kind of reserves do you mean?

23 A. Oil, sugar, flour, salt, detergent, soap. Those are reserves that

24 practically every country has.

25 Q. What were they being kept in reserve for?

Page 1341












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Page 1342

1 A. In case of war. Those are reserves that have a military purpose.

2 Q. Now, I understand that your company was keeping these reserves,

3 but who were the authorities in charge of deciding how and when these

4 reserves would be distributed?

5 A. The Republican Directorate for Reserves and the executive council

6 of the Municipal Assembly.

7 Q. Were you given any instructions before the war about what to do

8 with these reserves, any instructions in case of war?

9 A. Yes, there are instructions. There are instructions that are kept

10 secret, very secret.

11 Q. Were you told that the war would start on April 8th of 1992?

12 A. No.

13 Q. On the 8th of April, 1992, did you go to work?

14 A. Yes. Yes. On the 7th of April, I went there, and on the 8th, I

15 returned.

16 Q. I'm sorry, my question is about the 8th of April, whether you went

17 to work that morning.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How did you go to work?

20 A. My own car.

21 Q. Were you able to enter Foca?

22 A. No. No. I was stopped at the entrance into Foca, by the

23 warehouses in Livade.

24 Q. Who stopped you?

25 A. It was a military checkpoint. There were two young men in

Page 1343

1 military uniforms.

2 Q. Were you told why you were being stopped?

3 A. No. They didn't say anything. They have just said, "You can't

4 take the car into town, you can only walk."

5 Q. Can you tell under whose command these soldiers were?

6 A. I don't know. I don't know. I really don't know that.

7 Q. What did you do?

8 A. I left my car there. The man who was with me, a neighbour who

9 worked in the same company, he returned over there to Suba. Then I came

10 to the house on foot. I shaved, got ready, and went to work.

11 Q. And when you say your "house," you mean the house that you lived

12 in in Foca before you moved your family out?

13 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, my apartment.

14 Q. When you went to work, could you see what was happening in Foca at

15 that time?

16 A. When I went through Foca, I saw there was shooting, right in front

17 of me, practically speaking. This was falling -- what do you call this?

18 Well, bullets. Bullets were falling. Then by the former JNA building, I

19 saw two soldiers in uniform. I knew there was a radio transmitter there,

20 and I thought that it was because of the radio station.

21 Q. Could you tell who had taken over the radio station at that time?

22 A. I saw people in military uniforms.

23 Q. Could you see who was shooting?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you able to arrive at work that morning?

Page 1344

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were there other employees there?

3 A. No.

4 Q. There was nobody else there at all?

5 A. Some of the people who worked for me or with me.

6 Q. So there were some people there but not all the employees were

7 there; is that right?

8 A. Exactly.

9 Q. Did your company employ security guards?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were there security guards on duty that day?

12 A. A number of them did not come.

13 Q. When you saw that not all the employees were at work, did you

14 notify anyone?

15 A. I had my colleagues.

16 Q. Did you call anybody to find out what was going on?

17 A. Yes, the people who worked with me.

18 Q. And what did they tell you?

19 A. I was surprised. I said, "What's going on?" I don't know. I was

20 a bit restless. They kept assuring me that nothing would happen, that a

21 war would not break out. They told me that the JNA was there if anything

22 were to happen.

23 Q. What did you do when you heard this?

24 A. We continued working.

25 Q. The colleagues of yours whom you called and who reassured you that

Page 1345

1 nothing was wrong, what ethnicity were they?

2 A. Serbs.

3 Q. Did your Muslim colleagues react differently?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How long did you continue working that day?

6 A. Well, I worked until 2.30, I think.

7 Q. What happened at that time?

8 A. Then I went with this colleague who was the director of the

9 wholesale department. I went home.

10 Q. Did somebody come and take over the firm that day?

11 A. Well, that day, around 2.00, the company was taken. There were

12 two unknown men there. They were masked. They had stockings pulled down

13 over their heads, their faces.

14 Q. What were they wearing?

15 A. Military uniform, SMB, olive-green/grey.

16 Q. How did they take over the firm?

17 A. They entered through the wire fence, they disarmed the guards, and

18 a few times they shot with their automatic weapons. Then from this

19 external area, they entered the inner area. They went all the way to

20 where the cashier's department of the company was. Then there was another

21 porter there.

22 Q. What happened at the cashier's?

23 A. They disarmed the guard.

24 Q. Did you go to see what was going on?

25 A. No. I left the company with my colleague, this Serb. He

Page 1346

1 suggested to me that we go home. I set out, and in the meantime -- I

2 mean, the cashier's department was on the first floor. In the meantime,

3 we heard a burst of gunfire. They shot it.

4 Q. By "they," who do you mean?

5 A. Those two armed men, masked.

6 Q. Could you tell under whose authority those two armed men had come

7 into the compound?

8 A. I don't know that. I really don't know that.

9 Q. Did you ever hear those two men say anything, make any threats or

10 say anything else?

11 A. When we were passing by them, they told us that we should go fast,

12 otherwise, they would shoot at us.

13 Q. When you went home, did you notify anybody about what had

14 happened?

15 A. Well, during the course of the day, I informed the president of

16 the municipality, ex officio - it was my duty to do so - that the reserves

17 were taken over.

18 Q. What did that person tell you?

19 A. He told me that I should not mind this, that it was not my problem

20 anyway.

21 Q. Was that person a Serb or a Muslim?

22 A. Muslim.

23 Q. Did you notify anyone else?

24 A. The next day, I had to inform the director of the republican

25 directorate in the course of my official duty.

Page 1347

1 Q. What did that person tell you?

2 A. The other person told me not to worry, that the 6th Fleet was in

3 the Adriatic.

4 Q. What did you understand that to mean?

5 A. How should I know? I couldn't understand that. Probably that the

6 war would be stopped, that they were supposed to be some kind of

7 protectors, I guess.

8 Q. During the next few days after the war started, what did you do?

9 A. I spent all the time in the basement.

10 Q. And this is the basement of your home in Foca?

11 A. Yes. Yes, that very entrance.

12 Q. Were your neighbours there with you?

13 A. Yes, yes, my neighbours, yes.

14 Q. Did you organise any sort of defence?

15 A. Well, we agreed not to let anyone in through the door, regardless

16 of who would try to come in, that we did not allow anyone to get in.

17 There were two entrance ways, actually.

18 Q. Did you stand guard?

19 A. Yes, yes. I stood guard about two hours, yes.

20 Q. And did your neighbours do so as well?

21 A. We worked together.

22 Q. What kind of weapons did you and your neighbours have?

23 A. I didn't have any weapon. They had weapons. They had rifles.

24 Q. When you say "they," who do you mean?

25 A. My neighbours the Serbs.

Page 1348

1 Q. Do you know where they got their rifles?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Did there come a time when you left Foca?

4 A. No [sic]. I left Foca, it was a Sunday, the 12th or 13th. I

5 can't remember that, but I know it was a Sunday.

6 Q. What prompted you to leave Foca at that time?

7 A. My two brothers had left Foca and gone to Gorazde the day before

8 that, and they telephoned me.

9 Q. What did they tell you?

10 A. That I should go urgently, that Arkan's men were coming in and

11 that they were killing everyone.

12 Q. During this time, had you heard in the media either reports of

13 this happening or statements by politicians about inter-ethnic relations?

14 A. Well, those days I didn't really get to see any newspapers or to

15 hear any news. I was just in the basement.

16 Q. As a result of what your brothers told you, what did you do?

17 A. Well, on that day a person who worked with me there, he was a

18 director, he called me and he said, "let's go." And I said we should wait

19 for a while. However, after having talked to my brother -- I had my car

20 parked in the yard there in front of the building.

21 Q. And did you drive out of Foca then?

22 A. Yes, I drove to Ustikolina.

23 Q. At that time did you think that you would be leaving for a long

24 time, or did you think it was going to be for just a short while?

25 A. A short while. I didn't even manage to get anything from the

Page 1349

1 basement, I just left in my working clothes. I thought I'd come back.

2 Q. How long did you stay in Ustikolina?

3 A. I stayed in Ustikolina for about three days, I think. I was

4 waiting for my wife to see whether she'd be able to come from the weekend

5 cottage where she was with our son.

6 Q. From Ustikolina, where did you go?

7 A. To Gorazde.

8 Q. How long did you stay in Gorazde?

9 A. Well, my two brothers were there. I stayed three days.

10 Q. Were your wife and son able to join you in Gorazde?

11 A. No, no, no. They went on foot across mountains and hills to

12 Pljevlja. That's about 70 kilometres. That's what I heard from my

13 daughter who was in Sarajevo, that her mother and brother were in

14 Pljevlja.

15 Q. Pljevlja is in Montenegro; is that right?

16 A. Yes, Montenegro, yes.

17 Q. When you learned of this, what did you decide to do?

18 A. Immediately on the next day - I mean my daughter had telephoned me

19 in the evening - I proceeded to Pljevlja.

20 Q. How did you get there?

21 A. With great difficulty.

22 Q. What was your means of transportation?

23 A. My own car.

24 Q. And when you say with great difficulty, can you explain to us what

25 you mean?

Page 1350

1 A. You know what? I did not have any documents on me. I only had my

2 driver's license, which was an old one, and you could hardly discern what

3 it said.

4 Q. Did this cause problems for you on the way?

5 A. Yes, it did cause problems for me because I did not have any other

6 documents. Luckily enough, they let me pass through all these

7 checkpoints.

8 Q. How many checkpoints were there?

9 A. I think I passed seven checkpoints.

10 Q. Could you tell who was in charge of those checkpoints?

11 A. The first checkpoint at Ustipraca was held by the police.

12 Q. Were these all military checkpoints or civilian, or could you --

13 A. Military, military checkpoints.

14 Q. Were you able to tell whether they were Muslim or Serb

15 checkpoints?

16 A. No, no. I could not tell.

17 Q. When you reached Pljevlja, were you able to find your wife and

18 son?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where did you stay there, or did you stay there?

21 A. With some friends of my sister-in-law's.

22 Q. How long did you stay there in Pljevlja?

23 A. About four or five days. I think I stayed in Pljevlja for four or

24 five days.

25 Q. Why did you leave?

Page 1351

1 A. At that time there were a lot of refugees from Foca in Pljevlja,

2 so there was lots of commotion. I had friends in Titograd, and I went to

3 Titograd, therefore.

4 Q. Among the refugees in Pljevlja, could you tell whether they were

5 Serb or Muslim?

6 A. There were Serb refugees, and there were refugees of ours as well.

7 Q. When you went to Titograd, did you register with anyone?

8 A. Unfortunately, I did to the Red Cross, and this was a key mistake

9 of mine.

10 Q. Why do you say it was a mistake?

11 A. Because the Red Cross gave me away by my address. They gave away

12 the place where I was accommodated.

13 Q. How do you know that?

14 A. Well, I know. Everybody had the same thing happen to them that

15 was registered with the Red Cross.

16 Q. Tell us what happened to you.

17 A. You mean in Titograd?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. I was one month and five days in Titograd, and during that time I

20 was staying with friends, Serbs, because my best man at my wedding is a

21 Serb from Titograd.

22 Q. When you registered with the Red Cross, did you give this friend's

23 address as the place you were staying?

24 A. Yes. Yes. That's where we were registered.

25 Q. Did someone come to look for you at that address?

Page 1352












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Page 1353

1 A. Yes. After a time, a couple of men came in a white Yugo car, and

2 they were not in uniform.

3 Q. Did they identify themselves?

4 A. Yes. They introduced themselves as inspectors from the SUP.

5 Q. Were they looking for you specifically, by name?

6 A. Yes. They named me personally.

7 Q. Do you remember what date that was?

8 A. The 27th of May, 1992.

9 Q. Did they say why they were looking for you?

10 A. They said I should go to give a statement, that I would be back in

11 half an hour.

12 Q. Did you go with them?

13 A. I did. I had to.

14 Q. Where did they take you?

15 A. They took me to the police station in Titograd.

16 Q. What happened to you there?

17 A. As soon as I arrived there, the police officer on duty said, "Take

18 out everything that you have in your pockets, your belt, and put

19 everything here on the table."

20 Q. And did they take a statement from you?

21 A. No, never.

22 Q. What did they do instead?

23 A. They placed me in a cell right away.

24 Q. How long were you in that cell?

25 A. I was there from 12.00 noon until 7.00 in the evening.

Page 1354

1 Q. What happened at 7.00 in the evening?

2 A. At 7.00 in the evening, they came. They opened the door. This

3 police officer said, "Come with me."

4 Q. Where did he take you?

5 A. They took me to the reception area. They gave me some kind of

6 order to sign, and I saw that it said on that order "Foca," "KP Foca," and

7 I knew what that meant.

8 Q. What did you know?

9 A. Well, to go to Foca.

10 Q. Where did the men take you after that?

11 A. They handcuffed me, put me in a vehicle, and took me towards

12 Pruzine.

13 Q. What happened to you in Pruzine?

14 A. I spent the night in Pruzine.

15 Q. In what kind of accommodation?

16 A. It was not very good accommodation. It was some kind of basement,

17 cellar.

18 Q. Was it also a police station or something like that?

19 A. Yes. Yes, it was a police station.

20 Q. During this time, was your wife looking for you?

21 A. Yes, my wife looked for me. She went to the SUP in Titograd to

22 bring me my coat because I just went in a shirt, and the officer on duty

23 said, "He won't be cold. He'll be warm."

24 Q. Was she able to contact you at all during that time?

25 A. You mean during that time, those two days. No. No, she didn't

Page 1355

1 have any connection with me.

2 Q. After you spent the night in Pruzine, where were you taken?

3 A. The next day, the police came with a car from Foca.

4 Q. Were these police officers from the Foca police department?

5 A. Yes. Yes, this was the Foca police.

6 Q. Were you taken alone or with other people?

7 A. No. I went from Pruzine with an old man from Sutjeska. I was

8 placed in the car with this man.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name of this

10 person.

11 A. He was an old man. He said he was 83 years old.

12 MS. KUO:

13 Q. You mentioned his name but the interpreter didn't hear it.

14 Perhaps you could repeat it for the interpreter, the name of the

15 83-year-old man.

16 A. It's his last name. Humic.

17 Q. Did anyone else join you in the car?

18 A. Yes. On that day, we were joined by another man in Scepan Polje.

19 Q. What ethnicity were those two men?

20 A. Muslims. This man was called Fehrid Sabanovic.

21 Q. Did you see how Mr. Sabanovic was placed in the car with you, what

22 the circumstances were?

23 A. Yes, I saw. His daughter was crying. His daughter was with him.

24 She was crying.

25 Q. How young was his daughter?

Page 1356

1 A. Perhaps 12, 13, something like that.

2 Q. What happened to the daughter when her father was taken away?

3 A. She was left behind at that place, at that control point where she

4 was.

5 Q. And just to clarify it, when Mr. Sabanovic was placed in the car

6 with you, was he standing on the street or --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- was he already in someone's custody? Could you tell how he was

9 arrested and put in your car?

10 A. He was standing at this control point where the Montenegrin guards

11 were, the Montenegrin police.

12 Q. And what happened?

13 A. Then we went straight to Foca.

14 Q. I just wanted to clarify a point so we can complete the picture.

15 Mr. Sabanovic was standing with the Montenegrin police. Your car drove up

16 with the two police officers from Foca.

17 A. Yes, we came by.

18 Q. And did the police officers from Foca do something to get

19 Mr. Sabanovic in the car or how was it that he came to be in the car? Who

20 put him there?

21 A. Well, these people, our people, put him inside.

22 Q. The Foca policemen you mean?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How far did you have to drive from Pruzine to Foca?

25 A. I think, if I remember rightly, that it's 25 kilometres from

Page 1357

1 Scepan Polje to Foca.

2 Q. But the whole trip from where you spent the night in Montenegro,

3 how far is that to Foca?

4 A. I came there in the evening to Pruzine, to the police there, at

5 10.00 p.m. in the evening. I spent the night there, and then the Foca

6 police officer came to get us maybe at about 3.00, 2.30 or 3.00. I don't

7 remember.

8 Q. I just wanted to get -- to give the Court a sense of how far you

9 had to travel to get from Pruzine to Foca. How many kilometres is it?

10 A. I don't know. It's 25 kilometres to our border at Scepan Polje,

11 so I don't know if it's maybe 15 kilometres more to get up to Pruzine.

12 Q. During that trip, how did the two Foca police officers treat you

13 and the other two men?

14 A. They forced us to sing songs. They asked me for money. Do I have

15 German marks?

16 Q. What kind of songs did they force you to sing?

17 A. From Topola to Ravna Gora, all the guards belong to Draza

18 Mihajlovic's guards and so on.

19 Q. Were these Serb military songs?

20 A. Yes, these are old Cetnik songs.

21 Q. You say they forced you. How was it they were able to force you

22 to do this?

23 A. "Sing, you have to sing."

24 Q. Were they armed?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1358

1 Q. Did they threaten you at some point?

2 A. In one place they stopped the car, and they asked me if I had

3 German marks.

4 Q. What did you tell them?

5 A. I said I don't have any money. I had 10.000 German marks; I had

6 sold my car. And I said I deposited that in the bank, and I said, "You

7 can go and check that," and I named the person that I had sold my car to.

8 That person was an ethnic Serb.

9 Q. What was the reaction of the armed men -- or of the policemen?

10 A. Nothing. Then this other person said, "Well, let's continue. Let

11 him go."

12 Q. Did they threaten to throw you off the bridge at some point?

13 A. Yes, yes, they did at one point. They had stopped.

14 Q. When you got to Foca, where were you taken?

15 A. To the police station.

16 Q. What happened there?

17 A. We were in the car. They went out; one of them stayed with us.

18 Then he came back in two or three minutes and said, "They should go to KP

19 Dom."

20 Q. Were you taken to KP Dom?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Were you told why you were being taken there?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you ever told while you were being detained at KP Dom?

25 A. No, never.

Page 1359

1 Q. When you arrived at KP Dom, were you registered? Did somebody

2 take down your name and things like that?

3 A. Yes, the officer on duty received us. We left all the things that

4 we had with us.

5 Q. And where were you taken then?

6 A. They took us to Room 20.

7 Q. Were there already people in Room 20?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Approximately how many?

10 A. About 60.

11 Q. Could you tell in the course of the next few days how many

12 detainees were being kept at KP Dom at that time?

13 A. I think the figure is about 600. Perhaps there was 700, but at

14 the time that I arrived there, there were about 600 people.

15 Q. On what basis do you reach that number?

16 A. The number of the sleeping rooms and then we multiplied, and so

17 on.

18 Q. And of the 600 that you mentioned, were those all Muslim

19 detainees, or does that include Serbs?

20 A. At that time, I think there was one section with Serbs, but this

21 figure does not include the Serbs.

22 Q. And I forgot to mention, among the non-Serbs, I said Muslims, but

23 were there also Croats?

24 A. Yes, I think there were two or three Croats.

25 Q. Were there also Serb detainees or prisoners being kept at KP Dom

Page 1360

1 during the time that you were there?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Did you have any contact with them?

4 A. Just in passing. Those that we knew, we would just greet by

5 nodding our heads.

6 Q. Do you know why the Serb prisoners were there?

7 A. I know one man, why he was there. He killed two Serbs, two

8 soldiers.

9 Q. Was that before the war?

10 A. During the war.

11 Q. Do you know why any of the other Serbs were being kept at KP Dom?

12 A. I think also because of murders, because they committed murders,

13 and also because of desertion.

14 Q. Were you able to find out what their living conditions were

15 compared to yours?

16 A. They had better conditions.

17 Q. Can you explain to us what you mean by that?

18 A. They had better food. They had television. I think their

19 accommodation was also better than ours. Their doors were not closed;

20 they went out.

21 Q. Now, you said they had better food. How do you know that?

22 A. I'll tell you how. Our canteen was first. In between us was the

23 kitchen, and then after -- behind that was the Serb dining room, and then

24 we could see that they had as much bread as they wanted. They took it

25 they could also have as much stew as they wanted.

Page 1361

1 Q. What did the non-Serb detainees get for food?

2 A. We would get tea in the morning and one piece of bread. During

3 the day we would get a small bowl of soup and one piece of bread.

4 Q. Were you able to get as much bread as you wanted or were you

5 limited the one piece?

6 A. Only one piece. We all lost weight. At that time, I had lost

7 about 26 kilos in those couple of months.

8 Q. In addition to your weight loss did you suffer any physical

9 consequences of insufficient food?

10 A. Yes, my body, on the whole. I'm completely ill now.

11 Q. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

12 A. My whole nervous system is shot and so on.

13 Q. Were the non-Serb detainees able to get some, let's say, extra

14 food or leftovers?

15 A. I don't know about that.

16 Q. Did you ever see the Serb detainees throwing out food?

17 A. Yes. They were throwing bread.

18 Q. Where were they throwing it?

19 A. They brought bread into the rooms where they slept and then they

20 threw it out of the window.

21 Q. Do you know why they were doing that?

22 A. They had probably had enough to eat.

23 Q. What was the reaction of the non-Serb detainees when you saw

24 that?

25 A. Well, what can I say? Nobody reacted.

Page 1362

1 Q. Did the non-Serb detainees sometimes take food out of the garbage

2 can?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness said that nobody reacted

6 and this is a leading question now.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I must confess I didn't see the relationship

8 between them.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

10 JUDGE HUNT: The previous question was: "What was the reaction of

11 the non-Serb detainees when you saw that?" that is, that the --

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The throwing away of food.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. When they saw that, which was the throwing of

14 bread. Then he said, "What can I say? Nobody reacted." Then the

15 question was, I thought, quite distinct from that. "Did the non-Serb

16 detainees sometimes take food out of the garbage can?"

17 You mean the bread? Is that what you're worried about?

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Ms. Kuo, I suppose if there is a link between

20 the two it is a leading question.

21 MS. KUO: There's no link. It's a different issue.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I must say that's the way I understood you to

23 be asking the question. If you assure us that there is no suggested link,

24 then the question is a permissible one.

25 MS. KUO:

Page 1363












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Page 1364

1 Q. Witness, I'll repeat the question. Did the non-Serb detainees

2 sometimes take food out of the garbage can?

3 A. No. Why would they do that?

4 Q. Do you know whether there was a food shortage at this time? You

5 mentioned that you had access to the war food reserve. Do you know if

6 there was a shortage?

7 A. I think there was.

8 Q. But did you see -- was everybody starving the way you and the

9 other non-Serb detainees were?

10 A. No, of course not. Of course they were not. They had bread. We

11 did not have any.

12 Q. Were you ever interrogated at KP Dom?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When was that?

15 A. After I was brought in. I think about a month later.

16 Q. Who interrogated you?

17 A. Commission. Zoran Vladicic, Koprivica, and Starovic.

18 Q. When you say "commission," what commission do you mean?

19 A. I mean a commission for interrogation.

20 Q. Were these three individuals that you named employees at KP Dom or

21 did they come from the outside?

22 A. No, they were not employees of the KP Dom. Zoran Vladicic worked

23 in the SUP before. I think that Koprivica also worked there, because he

24 had a degree in law. This other one worked as an inspector in the SDK,

25 the public accounting service, Starovic, I mean.

Page 1365

1 Q. What kind of questions did they ask you?

2 A. The first question was -- Zoran Vladicic was putting questions to

3 me. He said, "Tell us what reasons led you to go to Titograd."

4 Q. Did you answer their questions?

5 A. Yes, I answered. Zoran said to me immediately, "We know that you

6 don't belong to the SDA and everything, but please explain to us how come

7 you were in Titograd."

8 Q. Did they mistreat you in any way during that interrogation?

9 A. No. That interrogation possibly took place for about 15 or

10 20 minutes.

11 Q. Was there ever a time when you were beaten while you were at

12 KP Dom?

13 A. Yes, once.

14 Q. When was that?

15 A. On the 13th of June.

16 Q. Could you tell us how that happened? Where were you beaten?

17 A. Well, the policeman on duty came to get me to go to the

18 administration.

19 Q. When you say the "policeman on duty," do you mean a guard?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when you went to the administration, was that the

22 administration building, a separate building?

23 A. That's the gate where the officer on duty was.

24 Q. What happened when you were taken there?

25 A. Well, as soon as they opened the door, this one who was to hit me

Page 1366

1 was standing there and said, "Where's your sniper?"

2 Q. Are you able to identify that person by name?

3 A. Slavko Drakul, that is.

4 MS. KUO: For the Court's information, this is the person named at

5 number 8 on Prosecution Exhibit P3.

6 Q. What did he mean by that? Do you understand -- did you understand

7 what he meant by that when he hit you?

8 A. Well, I have no idea why he had to do that.

9 Q. What did he hit you with?

10 A. His hand.

11 Q. Did he say anything else to you?

12 A. He cursed my mother. He said that I was a sniper from

13 such-and-such a building, and I said, "No, never." When I left the army

14 in 1960, never took a gun or a pistol into my hands since and I don't even

15 have anything like that.

16 Q. How long did he hit you or how many times?

17 A. Three times. Two or three times. He hit me and then this

18 policeman took me. He told the policeman to take me. This was a few

19 metres away. It was like a cell.

20 Q. And again when you say policeman, do you mean a guard or a

21 policeman from the outside?

22 A. A guard.

23 Q. Can you identify him by name?

24 A. Let me tell you one thing, that this Slavko was not in the police

25 of the KP Dom. He was in military uniform, so he probably belonged to

Page 1367

1 this town force.

2 Q. Do you know the name of the guard who took you to the cell?

3 A. The one who beat me? Vukovic, I think Dragoljub was his first

4 name. I think Dragoljub.

5 Q. What was he wearing?

6 A. He wore a police camouflage uniform, but he was wearing trainers.

7 He had trainers on his feet. That's how we recognised him.

8 Q. What was the cell that he took you to? Can you describe it?

9 A. It's a cell very close to this room by the entrance.

10 Q. What did it look like inside?

11 A. Inside? A regular cell. I can't remember now. It's something

12 for the feet sort of, you know, like, like handcuffs and, you know, for

13 tying feet up. It's a room of the KP Dom from before for, I guess, tying

14 up prisoners who did not respect the rules.

15 Q. So there was something in there already for tying somebody up; is

16 that what you mean?

17 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, I mean it was there for a long time. It was

18 in the KP Dom previously as well.

19 Q. Just so we have a clear idea of this, was it a chain or metal

20 rings or straps? What can you describe about what was being used?

21 A. Some kind of leg irons. It was in the corner. And over here

22 there was some kind of a chain. That was in the middle, sort of.

23 Q. And what happened to you when you were brought to that cell?

24 A. In that cell I found a man from Gorazde. His name was Uglesa. He

25 was a sick man. He was brought there from hospital.

Page 1368

1 Q. What was he doing in the cell?

2 A. He was there. They had beat him. He was already bleeding.

3 Q. What happened to you?

4 A. Immediately after me, Vukovic came in. I think he had an M-48

5 rifle. I think that's what that rifle was.

6 Q. What did he do?

7 A. He hit me a few times with a baton, then after that with this

8 rifle on the back.

9 Q. Where did he hit you? What part of your body did he hit you with

10 the baton?

11 A. The back, the back. Ah, the baton, you mean. On the shoulders

12 and on the head.

13 Q. How long did he hit you?

14 A. Well, about two or three minutes. He hit me once in the stomach

15 with the rifle. I mean with that lower part.

16 Q. Did he say anything while he beat you?

17 A. No, he didn't say anything to me. My dentures had fallen out, the

18 upper one, actually. I couldn't catch my breath. I mean, I simply

19 stopped breathing at that point.

20 Q. Were you restrained while he beat you; in other words, did he put

21 you into those leg cuffs?

22 A. No. No, no, no, no.

23 Q. How long did he beat you?

24 A. About two or three minutes, something like that. The last time he

25 hit me, I mean when he got all the air out of my body.

Page 1369

1 Q. What happened after that?

2 A. Somebody said, I don't know, I can't remember who said it at that

3 point, somebody said, "Enough, enough, leave him alone."

4 Q. Were there other guards present when you were being beaten?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know who said that's enough?

7 A. I don't know. I heard that. I heard somebody shouting "enough,"

8 and he really stopped.

9 Q. Where were you taken after that?

10 A. The isolation cell.

11 Q. Were you in there by yourself?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Who else was with you, or how many other people were with you?

14 A. Three more, three more men.

15 Q. How long did -- and was this an isolation cell that was built for

16 one person or for two, 'cause we know there are different types?

17 A. I know. I think there was one bed there, so I imagine it was for

18 one person.

19 Q. How long were you kept in the isolation cell?

20 A. Do you want me to tell you who the people in there with me were?

21 Q. Not necessary. How long were you in the isolation cell?

22 A. Three days, three days. I was there for three days.

23 Q. What kind of injuries did you get as a result of the beating?

24 A. On the forehead I had two or three sort of bruises. It healed

25 afterwards.

Page 1370

1 Q. Were you in great pain?

2 A. Well, I'm happy that it ended with that only.

3 Q. Did you receive any medical treatment for those injuries?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. Now, when you spoke in 1994 to the state Security Centre in

6 Sarajevo, did you tell them about this incident when you were beaten?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Why not?

9 A. I didn't want to. At that time I just got out of the KP Dom.

10 Part of my family was in Gorazde. I didn't want the children to know

11 about this. I think it was all right. I survived; I'm satisfied with

12 that.

13 Q. Why didn't you want your family to know about it, this particular

14 incident?

15 A. Well, I didn't want the children to have remaining traumas.

16 Q. In June of 1997 when you spoke with investigators from the

17 Prosecutor's Office, did you tell them about this incident?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What made you able to describe this incident for the first time?

20 A. It pained me, perhaps I should put it that way. You know what?

21 My friends, Serbs from Foca who I met for the first time, "We know about

22 that man, and he is the scum of the earth for having done that."

23 Q. Whom do you mean by that?

24 A. I mean the one who hit me.

25 Q. What has made you able today to describe this incident?

Page 1371

1 A. It's simple to say it.

2 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I see it's 1.00. Perhaps we can take a

3 break.

4 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 2:30.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.





















Page 1372

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 [The witness not present]

3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Kuo.

4 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. I've asked that the witness be held

5 outside the courtroom for a few minutes while I ask the Court permission

6 to ask two questions, and I thought it was best to have the matter

7 discussed outside the presence of the witness. Both of them pertain to

8 prior testimony.

9 The first is the question of the taking food out of the garbage

10 cans. I don't wish to belabour the point, but I've been told by two

11 people individually, independently, who understand B/C/S that it's

12 possible the witness heard "Serb detainees" rather than "non-Serb"

13 detainees, especially because the answer he gave was, "No. Why would they

14 do that?" And it's -- I suspect that that may be the problem because in

15 our proofing and indeed in the statements previously given, which the

16 Defence has, there was mention made of how Muslim detainees did take food

17 out of the garbage.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Have you got a statement from him saying that?

19 MS. KUO: Let me find it. Hold on.

20 JUDGE HUNT: What page was the evidence? Have you got a note of

21 it?

22 MS. KUO: Yes. That was page 60, line 22 and 24.

23 Your Honour, I have to correct myself. The statement that he gave

24 to the investigators does not contain this detail. It's information that

25 I received during our proofing session.

Page 1373

1 JUDGE HUNT: But you say that that's what he said to you.

2 MS. KUO: He said that Muslim detainees who were working outside

3 sometimes found food in the trash cans and they would take that back.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I see. So the point you're making is when you

5 repeated the question "Did the non-Serb detainees sometimes take food out

6 of the garbage can?" he may have understood in B/C/S that you were saying

7 "Serb" and not "non-Serb."

8 MS. KUO: Yes. And I don't mean that it was a translation error

9 but there's just such a small "Serb/non-Serb," and based on his answer, it

10 gives the impression that what he thought the question was "Serb," and I

11 simply want permission to ask the question using "Muslim detainees," and,

12 of course, I'll live with the answer, but I think that that may be the

13 misunderstanding, because I was surprised by the answer.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I rather gathered that, but his answer's: "Why would

15 they do that?" I must say it didn't impress me that he was talking about

16 somebody else, but, nevertheless, if you've had this in conference, we'll

17 hear what Mr. Bakrac wants to say about it.

18 What was the other matter you wanted to raise though?

19 MS. KUO: The other is the identity of the guard Vukovic. This

20 witness, at page 63, line 24, said, "I think Dragoljub was his first

21 name," and he repeated, "I think." Again, during the proofing session he

22 used the name "Radovan Vukovic," and we think this is significant because,

23 in fact, Radovan Vukovic is listed as an employee at number 52 on your

24 Exhibit 3. The witness was not given the exhibit, so he wouldn't have

25 known that. He gave us the name "Radovan" on his own. And I wanted to

Page 1374












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1375

1 find out a way to ask the question without it being too leading. I could

2 simply put the name to him and ask him if that, in fact, is the name he

3 meant, or if Mr. Bakrac can come up with a better solution of giving him a

4 bunch of different names for him to choose from, that would be acceptable

5 as well. But I wanted to make that correction because we believe, based

6 on our prior discussions with this witness, that that is the incorrect

7 name and he himself indicated uncertainty.

8 JUDGE HUNT: How many Vukovics are there in the list, bearing in

9 mind the evidence we've had on another case about the number of Vukovics

10 that lived in Foca.

11 MS. KUO: There are two on the list.


13 MS. KUO: One is Radovan Vukovic at number 52, and the other one

14 is Milan Vukovic at 45.

15 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Is there anything else you want to add to

16 that?

17 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, taking the second one first, my

19 suggestion would be that he be shown the list, it's got two Vukovics in

20 it, and say does he recognise either of the two names.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I accept your

22 suggestion. I am worried, however, by something else. This is the second

23 time that the Prosecution follows the witness, and the witness remembers

24 certain things in the corridor, and then he's being asked to remember

25 certain things and to come back to them. So I don't know whether we will

Page 1376

1 have this witness that we have already finished with has to come back to

2 correct certain things. I think that in the, the cross -- the re-cross,

3 the Prosecution does have a chance to clarify certain things and to

4 question him additionally, but not when things like this happen, when they

5 say, "Well, it's not familiar."

6 I'm not sure where these things are happening, as far as the

7 Defence is concerned, where these conversations with the witness have

8 taken place.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I have not understood there to have been any

10 suggestion that there's been a conference with the witness during the

11 lunch hour, if that's what you're suggesting. The Prosecution, as the

12 Defence, are under a standing instruction not to speak to witnesses, once

13 they're witnesses, without permission.

14 Was this a conference over the lunch hour?

15 MS. KUO: Absolutely not, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I understood it to be before the witness gave

17 evidence. And it's not a question for re-examination - you may not deal

18 with it in your cross-examination - it's a question of getting the

19 evidence out in chief.

20 The witness may always be asked to refresh their recollection

21 from, for example, a statement. If they are having trouble with a name

22 and having exhausted their recollection, they can have their recollection

23 refreshed from a statement. Well, they don't have a statement, but it was

24 something said in a conference before he gave evidence. So I myself don't

25 see any particular problem about the name.

Page 1377

1 The other matter, what do you suggest should be done about that,

2 the reference to the bread? You are familiar with the language. Is there

3 some similarity between Serb and non-Serb?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, well, my most sincere

5 answer to that is that I think that the answer of the witness was quite

6 clear and quite correct. I'm quite surprised because the way I understood

7 it -- even before this question, there was my objection. So the way I

8 understood it is he had already replied that Muslim detainees did not

9 react, and then the question came, "Did they take food out of the garbage

10 cans," and I then had stated my objection, and I thought that that was

11 quite clear.

12 JUDGE HUNT: That, if I may say so, is not the issue here. The

13 issue is not whether his answer was clear, it's whether he understood the

14 question. And the suggestion that is being made now is that he may have

15 misunderstood the expression "non-Serb," whereas if it's put to him

16 "Muslim detainees," we may get a better and more accurate answer.

17 If a witness has said something in conference, that means you can

18 usually rely upon them giving evidence in accordance with what they've

19 said. The conference, obviously enough, was over the weekend because we

20 were told they were arriving on Friday to be interviewed by the OTP.

21 You can take whatever benefit you can out of the fact that he had

22 to be prompted as to the weight to be given to it, but I don't see that it

23 would be unfair to you to enable the Prosecution to obtain from the

24 witness the evidence which they confidently expected he would give because

25 he had told them that only over this last weekend.

Page 1378

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I of course respect

2 your opinion, but I still stand by my claim that the question was

3 formulated clearly. The very mention of taking food out of garbage cans

4 could have reminded the witness. If he had said something like that on

5 Friday, he could have said, "No, you are wrong. It wasn't the Serbs who

6 were taking the food, it was the Muslims," if something like this had been

7 discussed, i.e., the taking of food remnants from a garbage can.

8 So it would have been enough for him to refresh his recollection

9 if something like this had been happening. He could have said, "No, it

10 wasn't the Serbs who were doing that. There was no need for them to do

11 that. The Muslims were doing that." But the witness didn't say this.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I can only assume, Mr. Bakrac, that you have

13 understood what I've put to you, and I can only say that what you have

14 said is no answer to what I've put to you.

15 It's not a question of the leading nature of the question that you

16 objected to. That has got nothing to do with this. It's a question of

17 whether he answered -- I'm sorry, whether he understood what was being

18 asked of him. Now, I've given you the opportunity. If you can't deal

19 with that, then let us get on with it.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will continue with

21 the process because I think it's obvious that we don't understand each

22 other. I think that it was obvious that the witness had understood the

23 question, and I remain by that.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Kuo, let's just get it very clear before we

25 make a ruling what it is you're asking to do. You want to ask him a

Page 1379

1 question again about the food and use the expression "Muslim detainees"

2 rather than "non-Serb detainees"; and then you want to show him the list

3 of employees and ask him whether he recognises either of the Vukovics, and

4 what can he tell us about them or something like that?

5 MS. KUO: Yes.

6 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Just one moment.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE HUNT: The Trial Chamber is of the view that as you are

9 still in chief, that would be a permissible way of dealing with it.

10 Could we have the witness, please.

11 I think though, Mr. Bakrac, I want to make it abundantly clear

12 that when the witness is taken away from the courtroom, he's taken to a

13 place -- he or she is taken to a place that is well away from anyplace the

14 Prosecution is, where we are, or where you are. There is a room that they

15 are kept in quite remote from this, and they are taken out well before

16 people from the courtroom.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

20 Yes, Ms. Kuo.

21 MS. KUO:

22 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. I'd like to continue with examination this afternoon. My first

25 question to you this afternoon is: Did the Muslim detainees sometimes

Page 1380

1 take food out of the garbage cans?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. Can you describe --

4 A. It's these people who were working outside. They would take a

5 little bit of bread from out -- from the container.

6 Q. What would they do with the bread that they found in the

7 container?

8 A. We ate it if we could get some.

9 Q. Do you know where that bread came from, how it ended up in the

10 containers?

11 A. From the canteen. They would throw it out. The garbage can was

12 right outside.

13 Q. Was it inside the compound of the KP Dom?

14 A. Yes, inside the compound, but they would also throw it from the

15 windows. So if we were outside walking, and then if we saw a piece of

16 bread, then we would run and take it.

17 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the

18 witness shown Prosecution Exhibit P3.

19 A. I'm sorry. I have to get my glasses.

20 MS. KUO:

21 Q. There are a list of names, and I would like to draw your attention

22 to two names in particular. The first one is at line 45 and the second

23 one is at line 52.

24 First at line 45. Do you see that name and do you recognise who

25 that person is?

Page 1381

1 A. Forty-five, Vukovic Milovan.

2 Q. Did you know him or have any contact with that person?

3 A. I don't know. There were two Vukovics. One of them was from

4 Josanica and the other one's from the village of Zecevo above Celikovo

5 Polje. So there were two guards named Vukovic.

6 Q. Looking at the person named at 52, that is also a person named

7 Vukovic, Radovan Vukovic. Do you know that person?

8 A. Fifty-four. I have Novovic Acim.

9 Q. I may have misspoken. It's 52.

10 A. Fifty-two, Josip Simovic. Josip Simovic is not a police officer.

11 He's a veterinarian, as far as I know. Simovic, Josip. He worked in the

12 Drina Economic Enterprise.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, sir. Have you got the right

14 number?

15 MS. KUO: Yes, I do.

16 A. Forty-two.

17 MS. KUO:

18 Q. No. No, please. Fifty-two, 5-2.

19 A. Fifty-two. Vukovic Radovan.

20 Q. Yes. Do you know that person or did you have any contact with

21 him?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. Thank you. I'd like to turn now to the other detainees, Muslim

24 detainees, who were kept with you. Were any of them also beaten?

25 A. Yes, a certain number of them that I know of.

Page 1382

1 Q. What period of time were detainees beaten? What months in

2 particular?

3 A. June, July, and August. That was the most frequent time.

4 Q. Of what year?

5 A. 1992.

6 Q. Was there any --

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting, but I

10 would return to the question. I apologise to the Prosecution and to the

11 Trial Chamber for interrupting.

12 Before the witness came in, we talked about whether they were

13 taking garbage from the -- food remnants from the garbage container, but

14 the additional question asked by the Prosecutor was something else that we

15 didn't talk about. It was throwing food from the window. On page 59,

16 line 14 -- no. Excuse me. Lines 15 and 16, it's clear that the witness

17 already replied about the bread being thrown from the window. Nobody

18 reacted.

19 I apologise. It's from line 15 to line 24.

20 JUDGE HUNT: I don't understand what your objection is. We're on

21 to something quite different now, are we not?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, we are on to

23 something different now, but I needed a little bit of time to return back

24 to the place in the transcript on my laptop, so we've been talking about

25 something else in the meantime. But we had gone back to a question to

Page 1383

1 which he had responded differently before the break.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's something you can use in your addresses

3 or whatever have you, but the question that was asked here, "Question: Do

4 you know where the bread came from it, how it ended up in the containers?

5 Answer: From the canteen. They would throw it out." That's from the

6 canteen. "The garbage can was right outside. Question: Was it inside of

7 the compound the KP Dom? Answer: Yes, inside the compound, but they

8 would also throw it from the windows. So if we were outside walking, and

9 then if we saw a piece of bread, then we would run and take it."

10 Now, that was perhaps a non-responsive answer, but, nevertheless,

11 it was an answer that was available to the witness to give. If it's

12 something contrary to what he said before, that's a matter you can deal

13 with in address or in cross-examination if you wish, but I don't

14 understand what you're objecting to.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I apologise

16 for interrupting, but simply questions are being repeated to which we're

17 getting a different answer after the break, and this is something that

18 worries me.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I won't say it more than once more. The question was

20 not the same question but the answer that he gave may be different. I

21 haven't gone back to check. And that's a matter which may or may not go

22 to his credit, but it is not a proper objection to the question.

23 You proceed please, Ms. Kuo.

24 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Was there any kind of pattern to the beatings of the detainees

Page 1384

1 during these three months?

2 A. I don't know what kind of a pattern you mean.

3 Q. Did the beatings occur during the daytime or in the night-time?

4 A. At night.

5 Q. How were the detainees taken out to be beaten? Were they taken

6 out from the cells or - I'm sorry - from the rooms?

7 A. They were taken out from the rooms.

8 Q. Where were they taken to?

9 A. They would take them to the -- to the guards' entrance and exit,

10 the place where you would leave the compound, the yard.

11 Q. Who would take the detainees there?

12 A. The guards.

13 Q. Did you see the detainees being taken there?

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer of the

15 witness.

16 MS. KUO:

17 Q. Could you repeat your answer, please? The interpreter did not

18 hear you.

19 A. Yes, I did see. I did.

20 Q. Could you see what happened to the detainees after they were taken

21 to that gate?

22 A. I couldn't see them because they were further away. They went to

23 other rooms.

24 Q. Were you able to hear anything regarding what happened to them?

25 A. Yes. We heard screams and cries.

Page 1385












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1386

1 Q. Were people returned to the rooms after they were taken out in

2 this way or not?

3 A. A number of them did come back, and a number of them did not come

4 back. We never saw them again.

5 Q. I would like to ask you if you remember any specific incidents of

6 beatings that occurred in this way. Do you remember specific individuals,

7 their names, who were taken out like this?

8 A. Yes. I remember Nurko Nisic, Kiselica, Rikalo, and Kiselica.

9 Q. You mentioned Nurko Nisic, and you said Kiselica?

10 A. Yes, Kiselica, Esad. Reko -- no, not Reko. Rikalo.

11 Q. What was the first name of Mr. Rikalo?

12 A. Halim Rikalo, called Husko.

13 Q. And you mentioned Kiselica again. Did you --

14 A. I made a mistake. His name was Esad Kiselica.

15 Q. Were there only those three people that you named, or was there a

16 fourth?

17 A. Four people, I mentioned four people, just one moment. I'm

18 sorry. Nurko Nisic, Rikalo, Kiselica, and Frasto, a taxi driver.

19 Q. What was Mr. Frasto's first name?

20 A. I think it was Emir. I think that was his name.

21 MS. KUO: For the Court's reference, Nurko Nisic is listed as

22 C-19, and he's also mentioned, although it's not clear whether it's this

23 particular incident, but he's mentioned in the indictment at paragraph

24 5.27. Husko Rikalo is at C-21 and also listed as having been beaten at

25 B-46. Esad Kiselica is at C-12, and Emir Frasto is mentioned in an

Page 1387

1 incident in B-21.

2 Q. Witness, do you remember when these four men were taken out?

3 A. When we went to dinner at 6.00 they were in front of the gate.

4 This was in the month of July.

5 Q. Who was in front of the gate?

6 A. All four of them were there when we went to dinner.

7 Q. Did you see what happened to them?

8 A. Afterwards I came back to the sleeping room, and I heard Nurko's

9 cries.

10 Q. How did you recognise them as being Nurko's cries?

11 A. I recognised his voice, and the other three were outside. He had

12 gone inside. I was in the room. I was in Room 18, which is on the 2nd

13 floor, and it was very close to them.

14 Q. Did you know Mr. Nisic before the war so that you would recognise

15 his voice?

16 A. Yes, yes, I knew him, of course. He was the deputy chief of

17 police.

18 Q. What did he hear him say?

19 A. He said, "Please, Zelja, don't beat me."

20 Q. Did you hear anything in addition to Nurko Nisic's cries?

21 A. He said, "Zelja, please don't." And the other guy said to him,

22 "Well, now you'll see how we beat."

23 Q. When you say "the other guy," whom do you mean?

24 A. Not the -- no, he asked Zelja, "Don't beat me any more."

25 Q. And the reply you heard was what you said, right? "Now you'll see

Page 1388

1 how we beat," that --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell who was saying that?

4 A. Nurko asked Zelja, "Zelja, please don't beat me." And then he

5 replied, "Now you'll see how Zelja beats."

6 Q. Did you see this happening, or you're only telling us about what

7 you heard?

8 A. I only heard that.

9 Q. How long did you hear the sounds of beating or anything like that?

10 A. Well, Nurko, about half an hour, and all four of these, it lasted

11 about two hours. I couldn't listen to it any more. I was so shaken by

12 this. I and a number of other people went to another room, and in this

13 same room -- there were these other rooms, I mean facing the hill, you

14 see, so you can't hear anything over there. I couldn't listen to it, so I

15 went there to this other room, which is in this same number 18.

16 Q. While Nurko was being beaten in that half hour, was there any

17 change in his cries?

18 A. He stopped. After that you couldn't hear a thing.

19 Q. Did you see any of those four men again after this?

20 A. I did not. Never.

21 Q. Do you remember any other specific beatings?

22 A. The one who came with me, Ferid Sabanovic, he was with me in the

23 same room for a while, they beat him; and he was in an isolation cell for

24 ten days, about ten days it was, I think. After that, he came to our room

25 again.

Page 1389

1 Q. What did you see, if any, injuries on him?

2 A. He did have injuries.

3 Q. Do you remember what they looked like, these injuries?

4 A. Black and blue all over his body.

5 Q. Did he tell you how he got those injuries?

6 A. He said that this neighbour of his, this Vukovic Dragomir,

7 Dragoljub, whatever his name -- I think that was his name, that he had

8 beat him. Dragomir? Allegedly, that was his neighbour from the same

9 village.

10 Q. Was Sabanovic taken out in the same way that you described, in

11 these nighttime beatings, taken to the gate?

12 A. No. He was taken out during the day.

13 Q. Was he taken out by himself or in a group?

14 A. No, by himself for interrogations.

15 Q. You remember when that happened?

16 A. In June, the end of June it was.

17 Q. And the person that you said he said beat him, you gave the same

18 name as the person who beat you. Was that your understanding, that it was

19 the same Vukovic?

20 A. Yes, yes, exactly, exactly, exactly. The one who has big feet.

21 They couldn't find shoes for him, so then he wore these real big trainers.

22 It was the same man, yes.

23 Q. Do you remember any other incidents of beatings, specific

24 incidents?

25 MS. KUO: Before we move on, Your Honour.

Page 1390

1 Q. Sabanovic, what was his first name?

2 A. Ferid, the one who came with me.

3 Q. Is there another Sabanovic with the first name of Hajro, or is

4 that the same person?

5 A. No, there is a Hajro Sabanovic who lived in Gornje Polje and who

6 worked in Maglic. He's a blacksmith; that's his occupation. I know that

7 one.

8 Q. Okay. Any other incidents of beatings that you remember?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know if anybody was ever beaten in the solitary cells?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you remember who?

13 A. I remember one case. He was an Albanian from a ship -- from

14 Brod. They called him Sabovac.

15 Q. What happened to him?

16 A. We were transferred to this other place, was it 17 or 23? I can't

17 remember exactly, but it's that side. It was sometime in July, it was

18 warm, and we heard his screams.

19 Q. What did you hear him screaming?

20 A. He was screaming, "Burilo, please don't." This was Burilo

21 nickname Bure. He was begging him, "Bure, please don't beat me."

22 Q. Did you know Burilo, who he was?

23 A. A policeman before that in the KP Dom. That one was one of the

24 most extremist policemen.

25 Q. You often use the word policemen at KP Dom. Do you mean that they

Page 1391

1 were guards working inside the KP Dom, or policemen from the outside?

2 A. No, no, that's the way people talk in our parts, you know, police.

3 Police, we call them the police. But these were the policemen who were

4 with us in the compound, you know. Let's clarify it straight away.

5 Q. And you mentioned that this was in July. What year was that?

6 A. 1992.

7 Q. Did you see any other detainees brought back to your room or the

8 rooms while you were there, what kind of injuries they had?

9 A. No, let me just say one thing. This other one never returned

10 again. He went to be in exchange, this so-called Sabovac. I didn't see

11 the others.

12 Q. So after you heard him being beaten by the solitary cells you

13 never heard him again; is that what you mean?

14 A. Yes. Yes. That's what I mean. And he went for an exchange. He

15 didn't return to the room.

16 Q. Were you able to see what effect beatings had on the detainees who

17 were beaten, either physical or psychological effects on them?

18 A. I think that this psychological thing was more important than this

19 other thing that you mentioned. I think it had more of an effect on

20 people that way.

21 Q. Could you describe for us what the psychological effect was?

22 A. You know what? When a guard comes in, opens the door and reads

23 who is to be exchanged, and then you think that you're there, that you're

24 on that list.

25 Q. How did that make you feel?

Page 1392

1 A. You stay there and you wonder why it's not me. You're sad. You

2 don't know about your own nearest and dearest for seven or eight months or

3 whatever. Everybody felt down, real down. Then those people who would be

4 taken to isolation cells, then you think it might be you, that you'll be

5 taken again. That's the way it was.

6 Q. And the effect of hearing the beatings of people and the

7 uncertainty about whether you might be taken out and beaten, what effect

8 did that have on you and the other detainees?

9 A. Oh, it was hard. It was really hard. Now that I mentioned it, I

10 start shaking all over. It's unimaginable.

11 Q. Did you sometimes hear gunshots inside the KP Dom?

12 A. Gunshots? When I just came, that was the 28th of May, and it went

13 on for about a month, a group of these policemen, these guards, in the

14 evening when it would already get dark, then you would hear gunshots. You

15 would hear this for about five or ten minutes. You would hear this fire.

16 We didn't know what it was, but we realised it was intimidation. We

17 thought that they would be firing at us, and we would lie on the floor.

18 Q. Why did you think it was intimidation?

19 A. I don't know why else they would shoot.

20 Q. Did you hear them say anything while they were shooting?

21 A. No. No.

22 Q. Could you see if they were shooting at anything in particular?

23 A. They were shooting into the air.

24 Q. Did detainees ever die at KP Dom?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1393

1 Q. Can you tell us about those that you remember?

2 A. In my room, there was this deaf mute. In 1993, in May 1993, they

3 brought him into my room. He was from Ustikolina.

4 Q. Do you remember his name?

5 A. Kunovac was his last name. I don't know his first name.

6 Q. What happened to him?

7 A. He had come in May, and sometime in June, by the end of June, he

8 died in our room.

9 Q. Do you know why he died?

10 A. Since we had a surgeon in our room, an exceptional expert, (redacted),

11 he said that it was the man's stomach. He kept complaining about his

12 stomach, actually pointing at his stomach. And even before (redacted) could

13 examine him, he realised that the pain was in his stomach and that he had

14 to have surgery performed on him so they could see what it was.

15 Q. Was surgery ever performed on him?

16 A. No. No. Regrettably not. He passed away. One morning -- I

17 mean, I said that these rooms consist of two or three rooms, and he was in

18 another room where people slept. It's the same room but this is a

19 different part of that room. And they told us that Kunovac had died.

20 Q. Do you know if the doctor told the guard that Mr. Kunovac needed

21 surgery?

22 A. The doctor went to see this physician of ours, this male nurse,

23 this medical technician, Jokanovic, who was in charge of us, and he gave

24 him some kind of tablets. He brought him these tablets, but, regrettably,

25 he did not manage to survive.

Page 1394

1 Q. Do you remember anyone else dying at KP Dom?

2 JUDGE HUNT: Before you go on, Ms. Kuo, perhaps it's only the

3 second time that we've heard that story, but there was no issue taken with

4 it at all, as I understand. We don't want to have the same story told by

5 every witness unless there is some real need to add to the story or there

6 has been some suggestion that it wasn't true. But it's up to the accused

7 to take issue with it if it's going to be in issue. Nobody took issue

8 with the doctor about that particular evidence, as I recall.

9 MS. KUO: That's fine, Your Honour. We -- as you mentioned, this

10 is the second time, and we are not completely sure how much we need to

11 reinforce it, but if the Court tells us that once is enough, then that's

12 how we'll proceed.

13 JUDGE HUNT: I'm happy to let you have the second time, but I

14 thought I should remind you that we said at the very beginning that we

15 don't want to hear this from every witness. There will be some cases,

16 obviously, where you will have to produce some supporting evidence, but in

17 that case, as I recall, there was no cross-examination about it at all and

18 we had a very detailed piece of evidence from the doctor.

19 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. We'll take that into consideration.

20 We're mindful of the weight to be given evidence if it's corroborated and

21 so forth, so that's why we're doing that, but --

22 JUDGE HUNT: But do you need to corroborate evidence where on the

23 face of it it is a straightforward story and it has not been challenged?

24 That's the point I'm making.

25 MS. KUO: Yes. That's a point well taken.

Page 1395

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

2 Q. Witness, do you remember any other person dying at the KP Dom?

3 A. Yes. Not in my room. Sandal died in this other room, Sandal, an

4 elderly man. He was probably 75. He managed to escape, and they found

5 him in Pljevlja and returned him to Foca. He was in the police station in

6 Pljevlja for about ten days. They beat him there. He told us the story.

7 He said it was terrible.

8 Q. How did he die?

9 A. He died -- he died in the room where he slept also.

10 Q. Do you know of what cause?

11 A. I'm not aware of that.

12 Q. Do you remember anyone else who died?

13 A. Yes. I remember a driver who died two days before me [as

14 interpreted]. His name was Esad Hodzic. They told me about this. He had

15 a job as a driver in the automobile association.

16 Q. What did he die of?

17 A. He had had an ulcer. He felt sick in the evening. The other guys

18 asked the guards to take him to hospital. They didn't want to. They

19 said, "Let him wait until the morning."

20 Q. In the morning he was dead?

21 A. No. I think that in the morning when he was so exhausted he was

22 taken to hospital but it was too late by then.

23 Q. Do you remember anyone else who died?

24 A. I remember -- I can't remember his name now. This was this one

25 man who hanged himself in a solitary confinement cell. Juso Dzamalija was

Page 1396












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Page 1397

1 his name.

2 Q. Do you personally know why he hanged himself?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Were there detainees who were taken away and never returned?

5 A. Yes, of course.

6 Q. Do you remember any of their names?

7 A. Well, there are quite a few names.

8 Q. Why don't you tell us the ones you remember.

9 A. May I look into my notes to have them remind me?

10 Q. If you have notes -- are you able to give the names without

11 looking at your notes or not?

12 A. Ismet Pasovic; Hajro Sabanovic; Saban Durak; Emin Nesbir and his

13 brother; Tulek, the two Tulek brothers.

14 Q. What were their first names?

15 A. Their last name was Tulek. One worked as a policeman in the

16 KP Dom before that and the other one worked in Maglic.

17 Q. Do you remember their names, their first names?

18 A. The name of one of them is Kemal.

19 MS. KUO: That is C-25, Your Honours.

20 Q. Do you remember anyone else?

21 A. Dzemal Palic, Murat Crneta, Hasan Dzano, Aziz Hasikovic, Halim

22 Seljanci.

23 Q. How were these people taken out?

24 A. They were taken for an exchange. They were picked up and taken

25 for an exchange.

Page 1398

1 Q. Do you know if they were actually exchanged?

2 A. I don't know. Dr. Torlak from my room went for an exchange. Then

3 also from that room (redacted) as well, he went to be exchanged.

4 Dr. Berberkic.

5 MS. KUO: Why don't we do it this way? Perhaps we can have the

6 usher show the witness P55, Schedule C, and we can go through it.

7 Q. Witness, what I'd like for you to do is go through this list of

8 names, and only for the names where you know, where you know the person,

9 what happened to the person at KP Dom, tell us about it. So just start at

10 the top, and then as you go through it, stop and tell us what you know.

11 A. Number one, you mean?

12 Q. Yes. Only the ones that you know what happened.

13 A. Juso Dzamalija is the one I said hanged himself. Dzelilovic

14 Kemal, he was a teacher at the school centre. Dzendusic Ramo, he was a

15 clerk in the municipal assembly.

16 Q. Let me stop you. When you said Dzelilovic Kemal, did you see him

17 at KP Dom?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Do you know what happened to him there?

20 A. I don't know [Realtime transcript read in error "I know"].

21 Q. And Dzendusic Ramo, did you see him --

22 A. Yes.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter notes that the previous answer was I

24 "don't know" because the transcript says "I know."

25 MS. KUO: Okay.

Page 1399

1 A. Hodzic Nail.

2 MS. KUO:

3 Q. What happened to him?

4 A. They took him out in the evening. They took him out of the room

5 where he slept.

6 Q. And what happened to him?

7 A. I have no idea. He was taken to the gate, and what happened to

8 him, I don't know.

9 Q. Did you see him taken to the gate?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And after that, did you ever see him again?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Ivancic Mate, do you know what happened to him?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Kiselica Esad you've already told us.

16 A. Yes, the number four I told you about.

17 Q. And continuing down the list, who was the next person that you

18 recognise?

19 A. Konjo Halim.

20 Q. What happened to him?

21 A. I know that he was at the KP Dom.

22 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Krajcin Adil?

25 A. Krajcin Adil was a manager for commercial affairs at the mine. I

Page 1400

1 know him very well. He was taken out one afternoon.

2 Q. Where was he taken?

3 A. To the gate.

4 Q. What happened to him?

5 A. I don't know. They told us that he was going to be exchanged.

6 Q. Did you ever see him again?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Continue down the list, please, and tell us who you know.

9 A. Kuloglija, I don't know. Mandzo I don't know. Marinovic

10 Krunoslav, I don't know him. I think he was some kind of a journalist. I

11 don't know whether it's him, actually. I don't know. Mujezinovic, I

12 don't know. Nisic Nurko, I told you about him. That was that policeman,

13 the deputy commander. He was retired, though, in 1992.

14 Q. Rikalo Husein you've told us about?

15 A. Ramovic -- yes, I told you about the Rikalos. Husein is the one

16 who had a nickname, Husko. Everybody called him Husko. Husein is his

17 real name.

18 Q. And I'm sorry, I interrupted you, did you know Mr. Ramovic?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Are you able to recognise any other names?

21 A. Kemal Tulek was the policeman I told you about who had worked at

22 the KP Dom before. And his brother, the one I told you about, I can't

23 remember his first name, I found him in the solitary confinement cell when

24 I was there for three days.

25 Q. You found Kemal Tulek, or his brother?

Page 1401

1 A. No, his brother.

2 Q. You recognise any other names?

3 A. I know Munib Veiz and Veiz, Zulfo. This one was the manager of a

4 vegetable store, Munib Veiz. His father was in the same room with me.

5 Q. What happened to Munib Veiz?

6 A. Munib was also taken out, and he never came back.

7 Q. You said his father was in the same room with you. What was his

8 father's name?

9 A. Yes, his father arrived in August. He had already left the camp,

10 his son. His father's name is Edhem.

11 Q. Was Edhem Veiz ever beaten?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How?

14 A. I heard that he was.

15 Q. Did you see him injured?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What happened to Zulfo Veiz?

18 A. Zulfo Veiz was also there. I heard that he was beaten as well,

19 but I don't know what happened to him.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. KUO: This exhibit is no longer necessary for this witness.

22 Q. Do you know who the warden of KP Dom was during the time you were

23 there?

24 A. At the time that I was there, Milorad Krnojelac, called Mico,

25 everybody called him Mico, was the warden.

Page 1402

1 Q. Did you know Mr. Krnojelac from before the war?

2 A. Yes, of course. We would meet almost every day. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 Q. When you said you would meet, were you on friendly terms, on

5 social terms?

6 A. We would greet each other. We didn't socialise, but we would

7 always greet one another.

8 Q. How did you know that Milorad Krnojelac was the warden of KP Dom

9 at this time?

10 A. Everybody called him "warden," from the police officers, the

11 cooks. And if we had to complain or make a request, then we would have to

12 announce ourselves for him to see us.

13 Q. Did you ever request to see him?

14 A. Well, I thought about it several times, but I didn't have the

15 courage to request it.

16 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac at KP Dom?

17 A. Of course.

18 Q. How often did you see him?

19 A. Perhaps once a week.

20 Q. Was this during the daytime or at nighttime?

21 A. During the day.

22 Q. What would you see him doing?

23 A. He would usually walk through the yard or the complex, so we would

24 meet sometimes.

25 Q. When you said, "We would meet sometimes," what do you mean?

Page 1403

1 A. Well, in the complex, I would see him; also from the window of our

2 room, because our windows looked directly onto the yard.

3 Q. What was he wearing when you would see him?

4 A. He always had a military dress on.

5 Q. When you say military dress, can you describe it more

6 specifically? Was it the olive-green uniform? Was it camouflage? What

7 kind of uniform?

8 A. It was the plain one.

9 Q. The olive-green, you mean?

10 A. Yes. The uniforms, the light ones that the, that the army used to

11 wear before. The olive-grey was the winter uniform. This was the summer

12 uniform.

13 Q. Do you remember if -- seeing him with a firearm, or not?

14 A. Well, as far as I know, I wasn't able to see.

15 Q. When you saw Milorad Krnojelac in KP Dom, was he alone or with

16 other people?

17 A. I would often see him alone. Sometimes I would see him with the

18 cooks. So he would be in the company of his people from the furniture

19 factory, the craftsmen, so usually this would be the company that I would

20 see him in.

21 Q. Did you see him with other prison staff?

22 A. Which staff? Which prison staff do you mean?

23 Q. For example, the deputy warden or the commander of guards or --

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. This is a

25 disputed question, so why not ask, for example, with the cook? Why is the

Page 1404

1 question with the deputy, and so on?

2 JUDGE HUNT: I'm at a loss to understand what your problem is.

3 Are you saying it's a leading question?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I believe that it is, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well then, if you say that, we'll hear what Ms. Kuo

6 has got to say.

7 MS. KUO: I tried to ask a non-leading question, Your Honour, but

8 the witness wanted more specifics. He wanted --

9 JUDGE HUNT: I know that, but Mr. Bakrac is nothing if not anxious

10 to ensure there are no leading questions in this case, sometimes

11 unreasonably so, but this time I think there is some reason to it.

12 A very simple question would be: Did you ever see him with any

13 senior members of the staff?

14 MS. KUO: Very well, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, did you ever see Milorad Krnojelac with any other senior

16 members of his staff?

17 A. I saw him once with Petko Cancar and Vojislav Maksimovic.

18 Q. Are those two people employees at KP Dom?

19 A. No. No. Petko was the president of the municipality, and I don't

20 know what post Maksimovic held.

21 Q. Was Maksimovic a politician?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know why these two individuals were with Mr. Krnojelac in

24 the KP Dom?

25 A. At that time, Foca was getting a medical faculty, so they went to

Page 1405

1 the furniture factory. According to what the people who worked in the

2 furniture factory said, there was some question of cabinets for the

3 medical faculty, for the school of medicine.

4 Q. Now, the -- in answer to an earlier question, you said that

5 Mr. Krnojelac was sometimes with his people at the furniture factory.

6 What did you mean by that? Who was "his people"?

7 A. Well, his people who worked with our people, the craftsmen. They

8 were probably qualified carpenters and other craftsmen.

9 Q. Were those craftsmen detainees?

10 A. No. No. These were people who previously worked at KP Dom, the

11 craftsmen. This was called the Drina Economic Unit.

12 Q. As far as you could tell, was there any separation between the

13 economic unit and the rest of the KP Dom in terms of its administration or

14 did it function as a whole unit?

15 A. If that's what you're asking me, I think that before it was one

16 unit and it wasn't separated, and it was called an economic unit. I don't

17 know whether during the war they separated the farm, the economic part,

18 from the furniture factory. I don't know how this worked as a whole. But

19 I know that before it was called Drina Economic Unit. They would produce

20 eggs, milk. They would also then produce furniture there and so on.

21 Q. Let me ask you this directly: As far as you could tell, was

22 Milorad Krnojelac the warden of the entire KP Dom or only of the economic

23 unit?

24 A. I can't tell you whether he was the warden or he managed the

25 economy there as well, but I know that there was an earlier warden of

Page 1406

1 KP Dom at the economic part. His name was Raso.

2 Q. My question is only the time that you were there. Was there a

3 separation of the economic unit of which Mr. Krnojelac was warden only or

4 was he warden of the entire KP Dom?

5 A. I don't know that. I really don't know.

6 Q. Did there come a time when there was a new warden brought to

7 KP Dom?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you remember when that was?

10 A. I remember -- I think it was October when they came by. The new

11 warden, his name was Sekulovic, who worked in the marketing at

12 Oslobodjenje in Gorazde. He was accompanied by the former warden of

13 KP Dom, Raso, and Mr. Krnojelac. So it was the three of them.

14 Q. How did you know that he became the new warden, Mr. Sekulovic?

15 A. Me and Professor Husein Lojo were working. We were sorting

16 through the beans in front of the kitchen and that's the way they were

17 passing on their way to the factory.

18 Q. Did anyone tell you that there was a new warden?

19 A. Raso came up to us. All three of them came up to us, to the

20 table, and they talked to us. And Raso, the former warden, knew

21 Mr. Sekulovic. He knew him like I did. He said, "This is" -- oh, he was

22 introducing him to me. He said this is (redacted). And when we were on

23 reserve and when it was a critical matter with oil and sugar, I gave that

24 to the KP Dom because the reserves that we had and the regulations

25 managing those reserves, when there is a shortage of supplies in the

Page 1407












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Page 1408

1 hospital, in the KP Dom, and also when there are some natural disasters,

2 we would be allowed to issue these goods. I had the right to issue them.

3 And because there was a major shortage of oil and sugar, I gave them to

4 the KP Dom on condition that they return the same quantities of those

5 goods to us. And this is what he said to this warden, to Sekulovic. He

6 told him about my small contribution in the past to KP Dom, that I had

7 given help.

8 Q. When you had given help, that was before the war, right, or was it

9 while you were --

10 A. Yes. Yes, before the war.

11 Q. Did Mr. Sekulovic say something to you?

12 A. Yes, he did.

13 Q. What did he say?

14 A. He told Raso that he knew me. He said, "Perhaps (redacted) didn't

15 remember me." But I remember. I went with that journalist. That

16 journalist was a friend of mine, Radisic from Gorazde, and whenever he

17 came to Foca he would visit me at my office.

18 Q. Were you told anything about being released?

19 A. Yes, he did say something. Sekulovic told me quietly, "You will

20 be exchanged within 15 days." This was the happiest day for me.

21 Q. During that conversation, did Mr. Krnojelac say anything?

22 A. No. He was with Raso, right next to the table where we were

23 sorting through the beans.

24 Q. Were you, in fact, released within 15 days?

25 A. No. A couple of days passed and I told the professor, I told him,

Page 1409

1 "Nothing will come of this exchange," and we laughed. But on the third

2 day, Milutinvic was coming from the exchange and he called me, because we

3 were outside. We were cleaning the beans outside at the table. And he

4 called out to me and he said, "(redacted) get ready in 10 minutes. You will

5 be exchanged." And I laughed and I said, "It's not possible." And he

6 said, "Yes, yes. It's true." So I got ready in ten minutes.

7 At the gate, the police officer on duty, it's his duty to search a

8 person. He said, "What do you have? What are you taking out of the

9 KP Dom?" And also, it is their obligation to return to a person those

10 things that they left there once they were brought to KP Dom.

11 Q. Where were you taken when you were taken out of KP Dom?

12 A. When I took all of my things, the police chief commander Rasevic

13 returned my driver's licence to me, and I don't know what else. And then

14 this police officer escorted me to another door. There was a Golf vehicle

15 waiting outside. One person, I think his name Elez - I don't know his

16 name, I don't know that he worked at the post office - and in new warden.

17 Q. Did they tell you where they were taking you?

18 A. Yes. They told me, "You're going to be exchanged." Elez even

19 said to me -- he whispered. He said, "You're going to be exchanged for my

20 son."

21 Q. Where were you taken?

22 A. To Kula, the Kula camp.

23 Q. And what kind of camp is Kula?

24 A. That was also an economic unit. It was some kind of prison but it

25 belonged to the Sarajevo region. It was a part of the central prison of

Page 1410

1 Sarajevo. They also had an economija, economic unit for the production of

2 eggs, fruits, and vegetables, and so on.

3 Q. Who was being detained at Kula camp during this time, do you

4 know?

5 A. At that time, I saw (redacted) from Foca there and also

6 another person. I can't remember his name. He had crutches. Hadzimesic,

7 Hadzimusic Ahmo. They left Foca before I did. (redacted), I think, left on

8 July 5th, and this person left -- the other person left on August 15th to

9 be exchanged, this Ahmo. So I saw them in Kula.

10 I was surprised when I found them there because when I arrived

11 there, they told me at the entrance the warden was there. He just

12 happened to be on the steps of the Kula camp.

13 Q. Was the Kula camp also being used as a detention centre at this

14 time?

15 A. Yes. Yes. About 250 people were there.

16 Q. Were the 250 people Muslims or Serbs?

17 A. One sleeping room was occupied by Serbs. The rest were Serbs and

18 Muslims. Later, they brought women and children from Rogatica so that one

19 of the sleeping rooms were older people, children. There was a baby as

20 well. It was six months old.

21 Q. When were you taken from KP Dom to the Kula camp?

22 A. I left KP Dom on the 15th of November, 1993.

23 Q. How long did you stay at the Kula camp?

24 A. I stayed seven and a half months at the Kula camp. So on the

25 27th of July, I was captured in Titograd, and on the 27th of July, I was

Page 1411

1 exchanged. So that means that I was there for 26 months in total.

2 Q. I'm sorry, you said you were captured in Titograd on the 27th of

3 July; is that right? Because earlier you said May.

4 A. The 27th of May. I apologise, it was the 27th of May.

5 Q. What, as a result of the time that you spent in the KP Dom, what

6 physical effects do you suffer?

7 A. I have pains in my back. I have psychological trauma. If I see

8 any of these details in the evening, I get very upset, the mass

9 exhumations and so on. I try to shield myself from that. I'm irritable.

10 I use medication.

11 MS. KUO: Those are all the Prosecution questions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, or Mr. Vasic?

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It's five to

14 four. I don't know if the Defence should start with the cross-examination

15 in view of the fact that we only have such a brief time left.

16 JUDGE HUNT: If you'd prefer not to, we're happy to give you five

17 minutes.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that we could

19 only cover the initial questions, and that wouldn't really help us too

20 much.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] And Mr. Bakrac also has a request for

23 the Trial Chamber. Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE HUNT: But we don't need the witness any more for the

25 moment? Perhaps you better wait there for a moment, sir. It will save

Page 1412

1 some time.

2 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, for now, yes. Your Honour, I

4 apologise for the misunderstanding, but the question is not connected with

5 the witness, so there's no need for the witness to stay. Perhaps we can

6 release him.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Thank you, sir. We will be seeing you

8 again early in the New Year when we resume. The Victims and Witnesses

9 Unit will be able to explain it all to you.

10 Thank you for your attendance. We shall see you next year.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 [The witness stands down]

13 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, Mr. Bakrac, I thought it might have been

14 about the witness. Yes?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you very much. I

16 wanted to ask one question. Perhaps it's better to say, to make a request

17 to the Trial Chamber.

18 I understood that the trial will continue on January the 8th,

19 2001. So because we have the Orthodox holidays later, so the Orthodox and

20 New Year's holidays are on the 7th of January, I wanted to make a request,

21 if this didn't interfere too much with the Trial Chamber's schedule, if

22 possible to resume the proceedings one week later, if this is possible.

23 JUDGE HUNT: It seems very reasonable, Mr. Bakrac. Yes,

24 certainly. I can assure you we will be very busy at that time trying to

25 polish up our judgement of the preceding trial, so it's not as if we will

Page 1413

1 have nothing to do.

2 Is there any problem from the Prosecution's point of view?

3 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we will resume, then, on the 15th, that will

5 be, 15th of January, 2001, at 9.30, and I hope you have a very happy

6 Orthodox Christmas.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.

8 Thank you very much for granting my request, and I, of course, wish a

9 happy Christmas to everybody in the courtroom and also the New Year's

10 holidays.

11 MS. KUO: Your Honour, very, very briefly. The Deputy Registrar

12 has asked us to put this on the record.

13 We now have the full translations of a number of exhibits that

14 were introduced by Ms. Thapa, and we would like to distribute them so they

15 can be put in officially on the record. It is 2A, 4A, 5A, and 38A, and we

16 have copies for everybody.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much indeed. Well, they will be

18 entered as exhibits with those numbers and letters, someone I hope will

19 put them into my folders. We will see you all again next year.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3:59 p.m., to

21 be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of January,

22 2001, at 9:30 a.m.