Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1414

1 Monday, 15 January 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. This is case number

7 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Krnojelac, we're in a different courtroom. Are

9 you able to hear the proceedings in a language which you understand?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. Please sit down.

12 Now, there are a number of matters which the Prosecution have

13 raised which we've got to deal with at this stage before the witness comes

14 in. Just a moment while I find my papers.

15 I think the Prosecution's application for videolink would be the

16 first to deal with. Is that yours, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. We filed this motion, and

18 we have explained in the motion the details, why we want this motion to be

19 raised -- this decision be made. However, there is one change. The

20 Witness 115 does not testify at all. So that leaves us only with the

21 Witness 49, and this witness is of special relevance, and, therefore, we

22 still hold to our motion because this witness actually is a witness the

23 accused himself refers to in his interview he had given to the

24 Prosecutor's Office, and how this person got released, and why he was

25 released and who was involved in it is of special relevance to the

Page 1415

1 Prosecution case, and, therefore, we would like to keep this motion.

2 JUDGE HUNT: In relation to 49 only.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, in relation to 49 only.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Does the Defence have any objection to that

5 application?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, we have no

7 objections. Of course, it would have been better to have the witness

8 testify here, but if that is impossible, then we accept that he gives his

9 testimony by videolink.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Is this the one that needs face distortion,

11 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff? It's not, apparently. That caused a few technical

12 problems, I understand.

13 Very well. Then we'll make the orders sought by deleting from the

14 draft the words "and FWS-115." If you need it in writing, it can be

15 amended and presented for signature later on today.

16 Now, that videolink is sought for a particular day, but it's not

17 in the order. What date was it?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The day is the 30th of January.

19 JUDGE HUNT: 13th.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 30th of January.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. That's the first matter.

22 Now, both parties have apparently spoken to the legal officers

23 about the issue of what they call scheduling. I'm not sure that

24 "scheduling" is the right word. There is a schedule that simply tells us

25 what hours we're sitting. I don't think it's appropriate to have

Page 1416

1 scheduling orders identifying precisely when there will be breaks. That's

2 a matter that can be dealt with quite informally.

3 Anybody who's had any experience in appearing in a criminal trial

4 will realise that you cannot run a long trial day after day after day

5 without having some time for preparation for future matters and to clean

6 up messes that have been made in the past. So the Trial Chamber is very

7 alive to your need.

8 What we would prefer to do is to have it dealt with informally.

9 If you speak to the legal officer, it can be dealt with between you, and

10 if it can't be agreed, then we will have to determine it.

11 We, of course, have other obligations to perform. Last year I

12 remember it was very difficult to fit in a couple of Appeals Chamber

13 matters into the one week that we had scheduled not to sit, and for that

14 reason only, I would not agree to having that actually scheduled in

15 advance. But the Trial Chamber does have some obligations in the week of

16 the 5th of March. So that will be one week which we will suggest to you

17 should be a break for both parties to be preparing matters for the

18 future.

19 How that fits in with the Prosecution's request for the week of

20 the 19th of February, I'm not sure. If you had a break halfway in between

21 that, it would be the week of the 5th of February, I think. Would you be

22 able to make your investigations and go along to exert your persuasive

23 influences upon these recalcitrant witnesses during the week of the 5th of

24 February?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. We need just one week,

Page 1417

1 whenever it is. The 5th of March would be too late because we think we

2 would already finish then with our Prosecution case.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. But how about the 5th of February?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The 5th of February would be fine.

5 JUDGE HUNT: In case there's some problem, which you can raise

6 with Mr. Roberts, it looks as though we will have those two weeks off for

7 you to do work outside court. But anyway, you talk to Mr. Roberts and get

8 it sorted out between you.

9 Now, the next matter, Mr. Bakrac, if you remember, you reserved

10 the situation in relation to the investigator's evidence, Mr. -- the

11 Finnish gentleman, Mr. Kamppainen, I think his name was. You'll remember

12 he introduced some further names which were not on Schedule C, and you

13 said you wanted to use the Christmas break to investigate those. Have you

14 finished those investigations?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, part of the team which

16 is on the ground in Yugoslavia dealing with this, we did check one part of

17 it and I believe we shall be able to round it off until the next break. I

18 believe that the situation will be quite clear by that time. So we would

19 prefer, we would beg you to allow us to give you our opinion at the end of

20 this part of trial, that is, right before the next break.

21 Besides, Your Honour, I'm not quite sure I understood it quite

22 well, but it would be the week between the 5th of February and which other

23 date that you envisage a break in this trial?

24 JUDGE HUNT: What I was suggesting was the week commencing the 5th

25 of February, the whole of that week, and the week commencing the 5th of

Page 1418

1 March, the whole of that week. So there will be four weeks now where we

2 sit, a week off, three weeks, and then another week off. That's the

3 proposal that I've put up, and I'm happy to hear anything that you want to

4 say to Mr. Roberts about it. I just don't want to deal with it in court,

5 that's all.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that is what I

7 discussed just before we started. I do think that the matter can be

8 resolved with Mr. Roberts and I do not really wish to insist on that

9 topic. I have nothing else to add. During the break, we shall talk to

10 Mr. Roberts about this long break in the trial.

11 JUDGE HUNT: The point that I want to clear up or, if necessary,

12 reserve is whether you want the investigator to be produced for further

13 cross-examination, and there's the status of the document which was

14 marked, from memory, 55/2. Those were the names which would otherwise

15 have been part of Schedule C to the indictment but are being added by the

16 Prosecution because they now have the names. They did not have them

17 before.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Perhaps there was

19 some misunderstanding. I have asked, since we shall have a break and then

20 the Prosecution's case will be resumed, then we would appreciate it if, by

21 the end of that week in February, we can answer whether we shall need the

22 investigator for the cross-examination, so that he could then come after

23 the break.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Certainly that seems to be appropriate, but that

25 would be, I think, the last possible opportunity you will have to

Page 1419

1 investigate it, and after that it will go into evidence.

2 Now, the Prosecution have indicated they want some protective

3 measures for one of the witnesses coming up this week; 182, I think it

4 is.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.


7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This witness is a displaced person and lives

8 in the former Yugoslavia, and he has requested a pseudonym and image

9 alteration because he fears -- his status is quite unclear where he lives,

10 and he fears that he has to return to Foca in the very near future. At

11 the moment, a lot of displaced persons within Bosnia are pressured to go

12 back to Foca, and he fears retaliation for himself, his family, especially

13 his children.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I don't recall the precise details of that report

15 that has been in evidence in another case, but I think I am right in

16 saying that Foca was one of the areas where there has been a problem of

17 people returning.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. And we have explained also

19 the reasons in our motion when we requested the protective measures for

20 the other witnesses, and it's simply a similar case.

21 JUDGE HUNT: The same. Yes, thank you.

22 What's the attitude of the Defence to that, Mr. Bakrac? This is

23 Witness 182. They want a pseudonym and face distortion -- facial

24 distortion.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, very briefly, we hold

Page 1420

1 an identical view as with regard to other witnesses for whom protection

2 was sought. Not to repeat it, we have the same objection as in earlier

3 cases as regards the possibility of the Defence to check it all. But, of

4 course, it is up to the Chamber to decide.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think you'll find that the result will be the

6 same. But may I warn you that when you seek some protective measures for

7 your witnesses, the Prosecution may come back with your argument.

8 Very well. Those orders will be made in relation to Witness 182.

9 Now, Mr. Bakrac, you have sought an order that the Trial Chamber

10 have your client examined, and the Prosecution has taken the point, which,

11 if I may say so, is a good one, that you have not identified to what issue

12 such an examination would be relevant. Are you able to identify that

13 issue for us now or would you like to put it in writing so that we can

14 consider it later on in the week?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can do so right now,

16 but we have already written a brief, and I believe that the Chamber will

17 receive it in the course of this day. In it, we gave our reasons in

18 detail why we are asking for it. If you wish me, I shall explain it to

19 you now verbally.

20 JUDGE HUNT: If we can deal with it today and we've got it in

21 writing, don't worry. We won't waste time here. If there is any need for

22 any argument upon it, then we can call upon you.

23 Now, there's also some discussions between the parties about

24 witnesses being called or the transcript of their evidence in the Kunarac

25 trial being tendered. And I'm not sure, Mr. Bakrac, from your response

Page 1421

1 whether you are objecting to the mere transcript going in or whether you

2 are saying that provided you can cross-examine the witness, you do not

3 mind the evidence that he gave or -- he or she gave in the Kunarac case

4 being tendered as if it had been the evidence given in this trial. Which

5 is it that you're saying?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we accepted the

7 Prosecution's proposal which concern three witnesses. We accepted the

8 proposal regarding the FWS-33, that is, that the transcript of that

9 witness's testimony in the Kunarac case be admitted as evidence in this

10 case provided the Prosecution agrees that the testimony of a Defence

11 witness from the same case, (redacted), be -- that is, that the

12 transcript of his testimony be admitted as evidence without

13 cross-examination because they both testified to the same -- about the

14 same circumstances. The subject is the same. So we've decided that we

15 can accept the transcript of Witness 33 if the transcript of the testimony

16 of this other witness is also accepted, that is, Witness 33.

17 As for the other two witnesses proposed by the Prosecution, we

18 think we are of the opinion --

19 JUDGE HUNT: Can I just check with you? It's Witness DC you want

20 to have as the quid pro quo. I'm sorry if that doesn't translate. You

21 will accept 33, provided the Prosecution accept DC, without further

22 cross-examination?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Is that correct, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE HUNT: 96 and what looks like 5 --

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. Perhaps

Page 1422












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Page 1423

1 the interpretation was wrong. We accept the FWS-33. We agree that the

2 transcript be admitted without cross-examination, but we are also asking

3 the Prosecution to accept the transcript of the Witness DC, again without

4 cross-examination. That was a Defence witness in that same case.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, now, there are two other witnesses that

6 the Prosecution want to have their evidence tendered, the transcript of

7 their evidence tendered, and that's 96 and 5.

8 If you say you want them to be cross-examined, they will have to

9 be produced for cross-examination. That's the usual course. But I think

10 what we're trying to do is to save the time of them having to give their

11 evidence again. So that the transcript of their evidence in Kunarac will

12 be tendered, but they will be produced here for you to see them and

13 cross-examine them.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. As regards these

15 two other witnesses, we insisted that we cross-examine them, so to call

16 them to come here. At a Pre-Trial Conference we agreed that these

17 transcripts be admitted as evidence, but also with the possibility of

18 cross-examining them. But we have decided that we do not need to

19 cross-examine Witness 33. But as for these other two witnesses, we insist

20 on their cross-examination.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

22 Well, now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, what about the quid pro quo? Are

23 you happy to accept DC as a witness on the same basis?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, we do.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, those two, the evidence can be entered at

Page 1424

1 the appropriate stage. In relation to the other two, you want 96 and 5,

2 it is accepted that provided that their evidence is tendered, their

3 evidence from Kunarac is tendered, and they are produced for

4 cross-examination. Are you happy with that?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, in relation to the Witness 96,

6 she -- I would -- we would rather prefer to have the witness not here, and

7 I was wondering if I can make another suggestion.

8 My understanding is that the reason why you want to cross-examine

9 her is the part where she mentions Mr. Krnojelac. Is that the part that

10 you want to cross-examine her on?

11 I mean, we would also be willing to say we can strike this part of

12 her testimony, because what we want to avoid is actually to have this very

13 old lady, and she is also in a bad health condition, we would like to

14 avoid to have her travelling here. And if that is an option for you, that

15 we strike this portion of her testimony where she refers to the accused,

16 we would be fine with that.

17 And in relation to the Witness 05, this witness would have to

18 be -- would have to testify through videolink. He's a very sick person.

19 He has tuberculosis, and would we would have to go to the country where

20 this person is living and would have to have a videolink conference. We

21 tried to avoid it. That is why we also didn't want 33. And we would even

22 be willing also to drop the other witness, the Witness 02, because this is

23 also a candidate for videolink in that same country because of his

24 ill-health, and we would be willing to drop this person knowing that

25 videolink is a complicated and a time-consuming matter.

Page 1425

1 JUDGE HUNT: I was going to ask you that. This country where 05

2 is living, is there any problem with the videolink from there?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I do not think so, but we have three

4 witnesses. These three witnesses, 33, 05, and 02, in this country, and

5 they live in different parts of the country. So that would mean two

6 videolinks now.


8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the only reason actually why we would

9 have -- we find 05 very important is that this person was very briefly in

10 the KP Dom and he was released, and he got release papers showing who was

11 making this decision. It's actually the release papers that are of the

12 special relevance for the Prosecution case.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Are they signed?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, they are signed. Therefore, we actually

15 asked to put in these papers without having the witness testify.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Are they signed by Mr. Krnojelac?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, they are not signed by Mr. Krnojelac.

18 They are signed by the Krizni Stab who made this decision.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Did 05 give evidence by videolink in Kunarac?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HUNT: But something has happened to his health since, is

22 that what you're saying?

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. The witness was not a witness in

24 Kunarac. We have only a witness statement given to the Prosecutor's

25 Office, and we say we can -- we can simply drop the witness. We don't

Page 1426

1 need necessarily to produce his evidence, his verbal evidence, but we want

2 to put in the documents he provided to the Prosecutor; that is, the

3 document ID 65 and ID 66.

4 JUDGE HUNT: What is the significance, if I may ask you, of the

5 identity of the person who made the decision to release 05 from custody if

6 it's not Mr. Krnojelac?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But it shows the -- who was above the

8 institution KP Dom, who was actually the superior of Mr. Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I see. Right. Well, has there been some discussion

10 with Mr. Bakrac on this basis? I, frankly, do not want to be trying to

11 persuade one party or the other to accept something. If we have to make a

12 ruling, we'll make a ruling. But it seems to me that if that's the only

13 issue upon which you want to call the witness and if there can be no real

14 dispute about the identity of the person who signed it, there is no need

15 to call the witness, but that's a matter for some discussion between

16 counsel, I think, before we have to rule on it.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, I think we will need -- we

18 will use the break to discuss it further on.

19 JUDGE HUNT: That's very good.

20 Now, in relation to this correspondence that has passed between

21 the parties, we are very grateful that the parties are actually talking to

22 each other in this way. But if they want us to have a look at this

23 correspondence in any way as argumentative material, it should be filed.

24 In relation to the letter from Mr. Bakrac and Mr. Vasic of the

25 26th of December, there's a reference to the name of a witness who I think

Page 1427

1 actually Mr. Bakrac did mention this morning too and it has had to be

2 redacted from the transcript. Please, when you are talking to each other,

3 use the pseudonyms so that if they do have to be filed, it's much easier

4 rather than having to have them redacted even to file them. But,

5 Mr. Bakrac, you did mention this name this morning, I gather, so do be

6 careful.

7 All right. Is there anything else we can dispose of before we

8 continue with the witness that was partially heard?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution has requested a summons for

10 one witness --

11 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, yes.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- for one particular witness, and we also

13 left an alternative to this. We actually want this witness to testify in

14 the Prosecution case and therefore we would need the summons. But on the

15 other hand, the Defence, as we know from this witness, also wants to have

16 this witness testify in their own case. That is at least the

17 understanding of the witness. Now, we wonder --

18 JUDGE HUNT: Does it matter?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. We only wondered if this is actually an

20 opportunity to have a witness summoned as a Court witness.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that raises a number of very interesting

22 problems. Has it ever been actually done?

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think in other cases there were some Court

24 witnesses, but they were heard after the parties had concluded their

25 cases. Therefore, we rather would prefer it the other way around, that

Page 1428

1 is, the witness testifies in the Prosecution case.

2 JUDGE HUNT: If you are talking about Blaskic, there were orders

3 made which the witnesses were happy to comply with for the mere fact that

4 they had been made. But looking at it, I see a number of problems which I

5 think we're going to have to sort out.

6 What is the difference between a subpoena and a witness summons?

7 That's the first thing. You've asked for a witness summons. A subpoena

8 is an order to a witness to give evidence under pain or penalty if he does

9 not. If we issued a subpoena, and there's a bit of law discussing this,

10 we would then have to be in a position to, in some way, punish him or her

11 if the witness does not attend in accordance with the order, the

12 subpoena.

13 I'm not quite sure how we would do that. We can't send somebody

14 in to arrest him like you do in domestic jurisdictions. What we would

15 have to do, I suppose, is to make an application to the country where he

16 is residing for them to arrest the witness and to produce the witness to

17 us. If the country doesn't do it, we would have to report them or have

18 the Tribunal report them to the United Nations, which I think by the time

19 all that's done, the case will be over.

20 A witness summons, if it is something different from a subpoena -

21 I'm not quite sure what the difference is - it may be that there is no

22 penalty if they do not turn up. I'm wondering whether that is something

23 you really want here. Many witnesses, of course, have said they will turn

24 up, provided that they can produce something to their employer to say they

25 are required to attend. We have issued many orders along those lines but

Page 1429

1 without any contemplation of having to enforce them if they do not comply

2 with them.

3 Now, have you investigated any of this?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We actually wanted to avoid the problems that

5 the subpoena would cause, and therefore we requested a summons. What we

6 hope is that when the summons is actually produced to the witness, that

7 this witness then is willing to testify. That is actually also a reason

8 why we wanted this break in February, to do that. We hope that the

9 witness would then be willing to come.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if you want to use it solely as some sort of

11 legal justification for the witness to say, "Well, I'm now obliged to

12 attend," I suppose we can do that. But I really am concerned should you

13 seek to have it enforced in some way.

14 When is it that you propose to call this witness? It's not until

15 sometime in February, as I understand it.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We wanted this witness to be summoned

17 for the 26th of February.

18 JUDGE HUNT: And both parties want him to be here, as I understand

19 it. I'm not sure what the difference would be except one party will have

20 the right to cross-examine and the other one will not, or may not. So it

21 would probably be, from the accused's point of view, better for the

22 Prosecution to call the witness, and if necessary, you may have some

23 certain rights to cross-examine, but then the Defence can cross-examine

24 him. Has there been any discussion between the parties in relation to

25 this?

Page 1430

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Not yet, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, perhaps you might take the opportunity at one

3 of the breaks during the hearing today or tomorrow to discuss this, and

4 then if necessary, we can consider it so we know precisely the basis upon

5 which you want it. That's what I'm concerned about.

6 All right. Is there anything else?

7 Well, we had part heard Witness 162. Witness 162 has protective

8 measures so we'll need to pull the blinds down while the witness comes

9 in.

10 Ms. Kuo, you were taking the witness and you had finished, as I

11 understood it; is that so?

12 MS. KUO: That's correct, Your Honour. The witness is just for

13 cross-examination.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 WITNESS: FWS-162 [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE HUNT: Now, sir, you are still bound by the solemn

18 declaration which you took last year, the last century, the last

19 millennium; do you understand that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, sit down, please, sir.

22 Who's taking this witness? Mr. Vasic?

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

25 Q. I would like to wish the witness a good morning and introduce


Page 1431












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Page 1432

1 myself. My name is Miroslav Vasic, I'm an attorney-at-law, and I'm one of

2 the Defence counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac. Let us start with

3 the cross-examination.

4 In your statement, in response to the questions put by my learned

5 colleague, you said that when the commodities were taken from the

6 warehouse of your company, you said that you informed the director of the

7 directorate about this. Could you tell us about the ethnicity of this

8 person? What was he?

9 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the answers.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Can you tell me, in 1992, at that time, who was the commander of

12 TO Foca, if you know, and what was his ethnicity?

13 A. I think he was a Serb. I'm not sure but I think he was a Serb. I

14 know that if the Chief of Police is a Muslim, then the other person would

15 be a Serb. That was the procedure usually. I'm not sure but --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could something please be done with the witness'

17 microphone.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic, the interpreters did not hear the

19 answer to your first question so we'll have to get that answer. If you

20 heard it, if you could give us what he said. But there's also a problem

21 with the microphone somehow. It may not be close enough to the witness.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall

23 repeat the previous question.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Are you able to tell us what the answer to the first

25 one was? He gave an answer. It was, what was the ethnicity of the person

Page 1433

1 who had taken the commodities away?

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes. The witness said that the

3 director was a Muslim.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Can we get this microphone put up closer

5 to the witness?

6 You can proceed, Mr. Vasic.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. In the statement that you gave to the Public Security Service in

9 Sarajevo, did you state that the commander of the TO was Sulejman Pilav?

10 A. You're right.

11 Q. What ethnicity was he?

12 A. Muslim.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. It's been a long time. It's been eight or nine years. I've

15 forgotten.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 A. May I just say one more thing? There were two types of reserves,

18 you see. There were municipal reserves and republican reserves and some

19 federal reserves. Where there were TO warehouses, there were federal

20 reserves. I think there was macaroni there, and these resources were

21 depleted. It was a man called Milojica/Radojica who was in charge of

22 these reserves. He was the only one who gave instructions to have these

23 commodities, these reserves, issued, and he's the only person who could

24 have issued such orders.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 1434

1 THE INTERPRETER: There is a problem with the witness'

2 microphone.

3 JUDGE HUNT: One moment. We still have a problem with the

4 microphone. Is it you can't hear or is there some interference with it?

5 THE INTERPRETER: It is as if the witness' microphone were not on

6 at all. It is as if we hear a different kind of sound from the courtroom

7 without the microphone at all, as if it's being picked up by another

8 microphone or something.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's something technical.

10 [Technical difficulty]

11 THE REGISTRAR: The technician is coming to the interpreter's

12 booth to have it checked. Also, we are having voice distortion at the

13 moment.

14 JUDGE HUNT: That may mean another channel, I'm not sure. But I

15 can hear the witness if I turn up the volume on the microphone.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please say something? We have

17 one of the technical persons in the booth now.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you just give us your name -- sorry, not

19 your name. If you could repeat your pseudonym, 162, please, so that the

20 technician can check your microphone.

21 A. 162.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Does that mean that you can now hear the witness?

23 From the interpreters' booth, can you now hear the witness?

24 THE INTERPRETER: If the witness could say something, then we

25 can --

Page 1435

1 JUDGE HUNT: Would you repeat it again, please, sir.

2 A. 62.

3 THE INTERPRETER: It has been fixed apparently.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

5 You may proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. In your statement, you said that after being detained in the

8 KP Dom Foca, you gave a statement to the investigations commission or,

9 rather, the investigators from the investigations commission. What are

10 you referring to, to the KP Dom?

11 A. No. It lasted for about 15 minutes. Not longer than that.

12 Q. You talked about the investigations commission. Was this a

13 military investigations commission?

14 A. No. No. The president was there and I also said who the

15 president was, Vladicic and there were two other members.

16 Q. And the statement that you gave in 1997 to the investigator of the

17 OTP, did you say that Vladicic, Starovic, and Koprivica were members of

18 the military investigations commission for detained persons?

19 A. I don't know. They did not wear military uniforms at any rate,

20 but possibly they were because later, when I was told or, rather, when he

21 asked me why I went down there and all that, about 10 or 15 minutes I was

22 with them, and I said why I went there. Then he took this piece of paper

23 out of the typewriter and threw it into the wastepaper basket as if he

24 said to me it was the military command that was supposed to talk to me.

25 It was to that effect.

Page 1436

1 Q. Thank you. Did you state to the public security services in

2 Sarajevo that Colonel Kovac personally came to take out the detainees

3 named Cengic and that he took them out of the KP Dom?

4 A. No. No. He was in the warden's office, this man Kovac, when the

5 two Cengics went out for an interview. And he introduced himself by the

6 name of Kovac. He said, "I'm Kovac."

7 Q. This Colonel Kovac, did he take these persons away?

8 A. No. No. It was late. It was late on that day. I think it was

9 the 15th of January. It was quite cold. And he said, "It's late this

10 time, but tomorrow a car will come to pick you up at 8.00, I think." And

11 exactly the next day at 8.00, Milutinovic, a guard, came and took them

12 away.

13 Q. Who said that? Who said that, that a car would come to pick them

14 up the next day? The warden?

15 A. No. No, not the warden. Kovac did.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. He said that he personally got orders from Milosevic to take them

18 to Belgrade.

19 Q. Did you say to the investigators of the OTP, in the statement that

20 you made, that conditions of accommodation, rather, that accommodation in

21 the KP Dom was acceptable in view of the situation that then prevailed?

22 A. Exactly.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. You're welcome.

25 Q. In the statement that you gave to the public security station, did

Page 1437

1 you state that together with you in Room 20 there were some eminent

2 citizens of Foca?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was Mr. Safet Avdic in that room also?

5 A. Yes. For a certain amount of time, yes. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. Actually, in the later period, Safet was with us in that room.

8 This was this one room where we were singled out. There were 12 to

9 15 persons in that room, and we were never reported to the Red Cross.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. You're welcome.

12 Q. You said here that you were physically abused, and in response to

13 my learned colleague's question, you said that you did not state that to

14 the public security station or the investigators of the Prosecution; is

15 that correct?

16 A. If I remember correctly, I said, either in Sarajevo or I don't

17 know where, that I was mistreated once. However, I did not consider that

18 to be evil because I fared quite well compared to my colleagues. I

19 thought that everything was fine. I was alive.

20 Q. When you made your statement to the public security station, were

21 the members of your family present?

22 A. No, they were not.

23 Q. Can you explain to me then, how did you think that your children

24 would find out about this event if you state this to the public security

25 centre? Because in response to my learned colleague's question in terms

Page 1438

1 of why you didn't state this earlier, you said that you were afraid that

2 your children would find out.

3 A. Yes, I said that. I had a family, and I had my brothers and

4 sisters in Gorazde, and my daughter was in Sarajevo. I was afraid.

5 Gorazde was under siege. Sarajevo was under siege. It was shelled every

6 day. And also when I was being exchanged, they told us in one sentence,

7 "Be careful what you're saying because you may come back here." That was

8 one of the motives.

9 Q. Yes, sir, but that is a statement that you gave to the police of

10 the Federation. What do you mean? How can this be interpreted to your

11 children? The Defence believes that this is not very logical, especially

12 to have this statement interpreted to the Serb side.

13 A. No. No. It seems to me that I said in one sentence that I was

14 mistreated once, and I think that took care of that. Also, in Sarajevo,

15 when I gave my statement, there were shells that were falling, and I

16 didn't know where I was. I was still obsessed. I still thought that I

17 was in the camp. Shells were falling. The siege of Sarajevo was still

18 on. I wanted to give this statement as soon as possible, and I wanted to

19 leave because I was sick.

20 Q. Witness, even if that were so in 1994, why didn't you say that in

21 1997 to the investigator of the OTP when you knew that you would come to

22 testify before this Tribunal, when you said so?

23 A. You know why? In 1997, I was in Sarajevo. I was visited by

24 friends from Foca to came to visit me, and they said that they knew

25 everything, everything that happened to me, that this man who beat me, who

Page 1439

1 was not in the KP Dom at all and all of that. After that, when they said

2 to me that they knew about it, I sort of thought, well, why shouldn't I

3 talk about it too then? That was the only reason, nothing else.

4 Q. Why didn't you say this to the investigators when you decided to

5 speak up?

6 A. That was after the investigators.

7 Q. It was after the investigators. And before that you thought that

8 you would keep silent about that part?

9 A. Well, I didn't think that I would keep silent. I don't know.

10 I -- I didn't want my children to know about it. I didn't want them to be

11 traumatised and things like that. I mean, the suffering I experienced in

12 the KP Dom is something that I did not want to transfer to my children.

13 Q. Nevertheless, you decided to talk about this in front of the

14 Tribunal here.

15 A. Yes. Yes. Well, if these people in Foca know, so why wouldn't

16 these people know too.

17 Q. Is it for the same reason that you spoke up only here in your

18 testimony for the first time about details related to throwing bread away,

19 taking bread out of the containers? You did not say this at the public

20 security station or to the investigator of the Prosecution.

21 A. Well, this was discussed in detail here, what the food was like,

22 et cetera. I said that I would be the happiest man alive if I would have

23 a kilo of bread in my hands. That's the way it was. We ate whatever we

24 could. We did not put any questions as to where the bread came from and

25 all that. We just needed a bit more bread.

Page 1440












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1441

1 Q. In your previous statements you also talked about food, but this

2 detail about Serb prisoners throwing food, throwing bread out of the

3 windows was not mentioned. Is that for the same reason why you did not

4 say you were physically abused before?

5 A. No. No. I just forgot that detail. I didn't think it was that

6 important.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. You're welcome.

9 Q. You said that you know that Munib Veiz, a prisoner, was taken out

10 and was never returned. Can you tell us from which room he was taken out,

11 when, and how come you know about this?

12 A. I don't know which room he was taken from. This was a different

13 building, the one where he was, but prisoners told me about this. And his

14 father was with me in the same room, Veiz's father.

15 Q. Do you know when he was taken out?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. On which day?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. You don't know any closer details about this?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no

23 further questions for this witness in cross-examination. Thank you.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Any re-examination, Ms. Kuo?

25 MS. KUO: Just very briefly, Your Honour.

Page 1442

1 Re-examined by Ms. Kuo:

2 Q. Witness, you were asked about Mr. Sulejman Pilav being the

3 commander of the TO. Do you remember, do you know if he remained the

4 commander of the TO once the war started?

5 A. No. No. Everyone got away. No. Some kind of Crisis Staff was

6 established then and there were other people there, in Ustikolina. They

7 had actually withdrawn to Ustikolina, 12 kilometres away from Foca.

8 That's where it is.

9 Q. Did you see Mr. Pilav in Ustikolina then?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 MS. KUO: No further questions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You may leave.

13 Just wait for the blinds to be pulled down on that side of the room for

14 you to leave the courtroom.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, you have the next witness, do you? Is it

17 a protected measures matter?

18 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I do have the next

19 witness and protection measures have been granted, a pseudonym and image

20 distortion.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Right.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE HUNT: Please take the solemn declaration, sir.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 1443

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

5 Usher, we'll need the microphones changed again.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

7 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Examined by Mr. Smith:

9 Q. Good morning, Witness. I know you're very anxious about giving

10 your testimony this morning and I know you have a heart condition. So if

11 you would like a break, if you could just ask the Judges for a break if

12 you require it.

13 A. Thank you.

14 Q. There is a paper in front of you and it contains a number, the

15 number 86, and it also contains your name below it and your date of

16 birth. Are those details correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, you've been granted protective measures of your name so we'll

19 only refer to your name as "86," and also the protective measure of image

20 distortion; do you understand?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Also, there were two other names on that piece of paper with

23 corresponding numbers on it. If you refer to those names in your

24 testimony, could you refer to their number and not their name?

25 A. [In English] Okay.

Page 1444

1 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I ask that that piece of paper be

2 tendered as -- I think it's 405, Prosecution Exhibit 405.

3 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit 405.


5 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, thank you.

6 MR. SMITH: For the Court's information, this witness appears in

7 Schedule D, at number 22 of the Schedule attached to the indictment.

8 Q. Witness, what is your ethnic background?

9 A. [Interpretation] I am a Muslim, a Bosniak by ethnicity.

10 Q. When did the conflict in Foca occur in 1992? What date?

11 A. In my assessment, there were certain overtures, but as far as I

12 can remember, the actual shooting started on the 7th/8th of April, 1992.

13 Q. And who was the shooting between?

14 JUDGE HUNT: Surely there is no dispute about any of this,

15 Mr. Smith. If you want him to go to a particular part, then lead him to

16 it.

17 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. We'll move a bit faster then.

18 Q. At the time that the conflict occurred, you lived in the town of

19 Foca; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you lived in the suburb of Deova Mahala.

22 A. My parents lived in Mahala and I lived in a residential block in

23 the very heart of the town. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1445

1 (redacted)

2 Q. You were living with your wife at the time, and your children were

3 away, living outside of Foca.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At that time, you held a (redacted) position at the Maglic

6 company; is that correct?

7 A. It is, yes. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 Q. And the main political parties in Foca at that time were the SDS

10 and the SDA; is that right?

11 A. In addition to those two chief parties, there were other parties.

12 The reform party. But these two were the leading parties, the SDS and the

13 SDA. There was also SDP, which was the reformist party, but its

14 importance was symbolic compared with those two others.

15 Q. Who were the main political leaders of the SDS party at a local

16 level in Foca?

17 A. The chief political figures in the SDS at the time were Stanimir

18 Stanic -- no, Stanic -- yes, Stanic. Miro, that's what they called him.

19 He was the President of the SDS.

20 Q. And he lived in Foca at that time?

21 A. He did, yes.

22 Q. And who was Petko Cancar?

23 A. Petko Cancar, as far as I can remember after all this time, was a

24 member of the SDS, a member of its Main Board. But he also had a

25 reputation of an important political figure in republican authorities,

Page 1446

1 with their headquarters in Sarajevo, and enjoyed major prestige among

2 those elected to the Assembly of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He

3 truly enjoyed very high prestige in the SDS in the town of Foca or,

4 rather, the municipality of Foca.

5 Q. And Velibor Ostojic?

6 A. Velibor Ostojic was the Minister for Information in the

7 government, in the Assembly, that is, the government of the Republic of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was born some 30 kilometres away from Foca and had

9 a particular weight in the SDS. I considered him one of the most

10 responsible people for what happened in Foca.

11 Q. Prior to the conflict, did he live in Sarajevo?

12 A. Yes, quite. Prior to the conflict, he frequently came to Foca but

13 he resided in Sarajevo.

14 Q. And Vojislav Maksimovic, who was he?

15 A. Vojislav Maksimovic was a high-ranking political figure. He was

16 the President of the SDS club in the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

17 also enjoyed high prestige and pulled a great deal of weight and played a

18 major role during the events which preceded the conflicts and then during

19 the conflicts themselves.

20 Q. He lived in Sarajevo prior to the conflict; is that right?

21 A. Yes, yes, he lived in Sarajevo, but he came to Foca quite often

22 because he also had a brother who lived near Foca, who worked there. His

23 father's name was Jovo, and he had quite a number of friends on all sides,

24 especially among Muslims.

25 If you need it also, he was nominated for the parliament and a

Page 1447

1 large number of Muslims had voted for him. But, of course, it turned out

2 subsequently that they had made a major mistake, all those Muslim voters.

3 Q. In 1992, did either Mr. Maksimovic or Mr. Ostojic make any

4 speeches, public speeches, in relation to the conflict that subsequently

5 followed?

6 A. Everywhere, as far as I was informed, various promotional

7 activities were taking place everywhere; that is, they were bringing

8 together, rallying, their own peoples. One of those activities was at the

9 stadium in Foca. When the SDS was established, there was this assembly

10 and I attended it as a citizen. One wants to know certain things so as

11 not to be misled, so on and so forth. I remember it very well to this

12 day. There was Karadzic, Plavsic, Ostojic, Kilibarda, Maksimovic, Stanic,

13 and others who came along with them.

14 Q. What night was this rally at the stadium, or what year?

15 A. Well, that was in 1991, and quite a number of things began to

16 change as of then. Certain things changed very quickly. Many normal

17 people couldn't really understand.

18 Q. What was the main idea put forward by the SDS representatives at

19 this rally in 1991? What was the main platform?

20 A. The platform, from what I remember, it mostly had to do with the

21 historical context, and its main purpose was a chauvinistic, a

22 nationalistic incitement so as to create a nucleus, to create a core in

23 the very being of the Serb people who did not want to be under the rule of

24 Turks, because history knew that it was their turf, that it was their

25 heritage and that they would not tolerate what they tolerated during the

Page 1448

1 Turkish rule. That was the basis. They identified the Turkish rule with

2 their neighbours who were of a completely different ethnicity but with

3 whom they, nevertheless, lived as good neighbours, good friends, good

4 fellow workers. And that was very, very hard to understand.

5 Q. If we could move to March and April of 1992. Did any of these SDS

6 politicians which you've mentioned make any nationalistic statements in

7 1992, around March or April?

8 A. Maksimovic, Ostojic, and others used to come very frequently, and

9 other politicians from the SDS came too. Fortunately or unfortunately,

10 (redacted), above the offices, where some of

11 these activities were taking place, that is, meetings. And everybody, the

12 SDA, SDS, reformists -- so that I had the opportunity -- so that I could

13 see very many people go into those offices. I had a feeling that

14 something happened every day with information which reached us through the

15 local Foca radio station, and it was then transmitted to municipal

16 authorities. The SDS had certain requests, that is, to split Foca into

17 the Serb and Muslim part. Those were the demands.

18 But then sometime in early April, there were daily meetings. They

19 voted to finding/devising a peaceful solution. According to some who

20 attended them, Zijo Ajanovic and others, who were members of the local

21 board, the municipal government, from one minute to the other, these

22 demands changed and they felt that it was all orchestrated by Ostojic.

23 But they pursued such policy requesting complete disarmament of

24 all Muslim individuals if they had any weapons.

25 Q. Thank you. And what was the SDA leadership's response to these

Page 1449












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1450

1 intentions of the SDS leadership to split Foca into two?

2 A. Normal people simply could not conceive that, to build a new

3 Berlin wall where there is no possibility for that. That was an imbecile

4 thing for normal people. But the policy they wanted to put through

5 resulted in some incidents, armed incidents. And as far as I can

6 remember, the right-hand side, the whole right bank of the Drina was

7 covered by paramilitary forces, heavy weaponry, and semi-heavy weaponry,

8 and it began sometime around the 7th or 8th or 9th. Those were the three

9 days which, as I remember, were crucial, when fire was opened on citizens

10 in the town.

11 Q. Do you know which ethnic group these paramilitaries belonged to?

12 A. SDS had the possibility, and I remember it personally, they

13 brought in semi-heavy artillery, and they transported those weaponry

14 through the town in the late hours of the night, and they deployed that

15 weaponry around the town.

16 The SDS had all the weaponry of the Territorial Defence and all

17 the other materiel and all or, rather, almost all of them were dressed in

18 olive-grey JNA uniforms.

19 Now, was that lawful or semi-lawful or paramilitary? But I,

20 nevertheless, believed that it was their lawful army as proven by the fact

21 that they lined up such men in front of the Ribarski, and that both

22 Maskimovic and Ostojic, among others, were those who saluted them. Those

23 who would not respond, and I saw that with my own eyes, those who would

24 not respond, that is, those from Serb families who had failed to respond,

25 who would fail to put on their uniform, and many had escaped to various

Page 1451

1 places, to villages and other places, they were subsequently subjected to

2 special treatment.

3 Q. If I can stop you there. Just prior to the conflict, was there

4 any part of the population that seemed to arm themselves prior to the

5 conflict in April 1992, in the months preceding? Was there a significant

6 increase in arms in the Foca municipality?

7 A. Well, it would take some time to explain it properly. All I can

8 say is that in 1992, in late 1992 and especially 1993 and the beginning of

9 1993 -- no. Excuse me. In 1991, that is, early 1992, owing to an

10 incident which was a kind of an introduction to the solution of financial

11 problems of the SDS, and they tried to resolve their financial problems by

12 an incident called Focatrans, which was a trucking company. They formed

13 their monoethnic company, and later, owing to their connections in the

14 Maglic company and other companies, by so-called compensations in sawn

15 timber, in exchange for that they brought from Serbia weapons and

16 ammunition.

17 There is information from stories that I heard that weapons, light

18 weapons, were distributed on a large scale among the Serb population.

19 Those weapons -- people took those weapons home. And the signal was to

20 light a candle, which would be placed on the window. And an incident

21 happened when by accident a Muslim man lit a candle and a Serb brought him

22 a rifle by mistake. I remember well that story and the man when that

23 happened. That was in January or perhaps February 1992.

24 Q. Thank you. Were the Muslim inhabitants of the Foca town or the

25 Foca municipality arming themselves at the same rate as what the Bosnian

Page 1452

1 Serbs were doing?

2 A. According to information, some Muslims were also armed, but not as

3 fast and as much as in the case of the SDS.

4 According to some information, I personally did not see that but I

5 heard from quite a number of people, that they, that is Muslims, who

6 wanted to have a rifle could pay 1.000 or 2.000 marks and buy a rifle from

7 some people who had reportedly organised a paramilitary force in the SDA.

8 And they were really comic situations; that is, there were some guys of

9 Serb ethnicity who sold rifles for 50 marks, that is, as among pals or

10 when they were short of money. That is what I also heard from different

11 sources, and I should say that there was quite a lot of truth in that.

12 Q. Thank you Witness. You stated that you believe the conflict

13 occurred on the 7th of April, 1992. How did it start and where were you

14 when it started?

15 A. Well, the -- it was on the 7th or perhaps the 8th, but I know it

16 was Monday. My office was quite close to where I lived, and when I got

17 there there was a policeman at the door. I asked the man, whom I knew,

18 "What's up?" He said, "The radio station was taken last night. Last

19 night some changes took place in the post office. Nobody can go there.

20 And these key facilities have already been put under the control of the

21 SDS."

22 Q. Stop there for a moment. Did you see any violence on that day, on

23 the 7th of April, any destruction or killing?

24 A. No. Nothing happened that day of that particular nature, but

25 later on I was able to go and buy newspapers, and one could see that there

Page 1453

1 had been some shooting that day or that night in front of the -- in front

2 of the army club or the army centre. There were some fired casings, which

3 means that that night, between the 7th and the 8th, there already had been

4 some armed incidents.

5 Q. After the conflict commenced in Foca, you were arrested some time

6 later and taken to KP Dom; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what date was that?

9 A. [Microphone not activated] ... remember. It's not easy for me to

10 think about that. The 19th of April, 1.00 p.m.

11 Q. And where were you when you were arrested?

12 A. With my wife and at times also with my neighbours. I was in the

13 flat all the time, and I told you where that flat was. So until then,

14 until about the 15th or 16th of April, I was in the flat. And I could not

15 stand it any longer because there would be three or four strong groups -

16 and I can't remember really - which would come to that flat - I don't know

17 how many times - from early morning to the night, and then physically

18 ill-treating us. They tried to slaughter me with a knife.

19 They took me from one door to the other to show them who lived

20 where, and in that way -- and they also had an automatic rifle and would

21 fire at the door or, rather, at a lock so as to open the door, and to have

22 me enter the flat first and see the situation there, whether there was any

23 danger or not so that they could go in and take whatever they were

24 interested in. And I went like that from one door to the other several

25 times with an automatic pointed at me. And we could not stand any --

Page 1454

1 stand it any longer, and I then asked by telephone, because it worked, I

2 called Jovo Milosevic to take us into their doorway because there were

3 more Serb families there and they could perhaps have more influence and

4 see that nothing happens to us.

5 On the 15th or 16th, perhaps, after all my imprecations and after

6 I implored him, he allowed us to move into the doorway. Then we moved

7 into Dr. Zijo Ajanovic's flat, and we were sheltered there to a point.

8 Then the 19th -- that is, we were also ill-treated there but much less.

9 Later on, on the critical day, on the 19th, a group came and they

10 took out all of us who were of Muslim ethnicity and took us to the

11 KP Dom.

12 Q. Who was in that particular group that took you to the KP Dom?

13 A. In that group were two brothers, (redacted). In

14 the same car a man called Cosa drove us. I don't remember. I don't think

15 I -- I don't think I ever saw him before, but I just heard that they were

16 calling him Cosa. Me and Nezir Coric. And that day he only told us that

17 he was taking us so that we could give statements, and he would bring us

18 back.

19 At their urging and trusting them, I left in another man's

20 slippers and another man's sweater. It was cold. It was April, but it

21 was very cold and it was as if it was the middle of winter.

22 Q. Thank you. Who was with Cosa? Who else was with Cosa that

23 arrested you and took you to KP Dom? How many people arrived at the

24 flat?

25 A. Four. They were from Foca and there were also others from --

Page 1455

1 what's it called? Uzice, Uzice Battalion that played the main role in all

2 that.

3 Q. Uzice is in Serbia?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Were you able to identify anyone else from that group, apart from

6 Cosa, by name?

7 A. That day I saw two other armed men who were kind of helping, and

8 it was Veljo, son of Vukadin. And I remember whether he used to work for

9 the plywood and veneer factory, but I'm not quite sure. And there was

10 another one, a yellow one. He looked yellow. And he was armed, and he

11 was an electrician. I mean, I didn't know quite a number of those people

12 because I moved in a completely different circle. And this influx, that

13 is, SDS involved quite a number of outsiders, all those who were

14 registered with all sorts of courts, the biggest criminals.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness.

16 MR. SMITH: I think that is an appropriate time to break, Your

17 Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: When you see that the witness is going to refer to

19 someone on your list, you better draw his attention to it because he has

20 mentioned one of them already. The name has been redacted.

21 We will adjourn now until 11.30.

22 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

25 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 1456

1 Q. Witness, just before we start, I know it's an anxious moment for

2 you giving evidence in the court, but I would just ask if you could

3 confine your answers to the specific question that I ask and then I will

4 follow up with other questions, just so that we can get the most important

5 points out as testimony to the Court. Do you understand?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You mentioned earlier that when you were in your apartment on

8 about the 15th or 16th of April, 1992, there were some strong groups that

9 came to your apartment, and on one occasion you were threatened with a

10 knife. Where did those strong groups come from? What army?

11 A. Those groups came -- I mean, they were paramilitary forces, the

12 White Eagles. They introduced themselves as such. And also there were

13 Arkan's men. They were also accompanied by one of the members of the SDS

14 from the town of Foca itself.

15 Q. Arkan's men and the White Eagles, do you know which ethnicity they

16 were? Were they Bosnian Muslim or Bosnian Serb or Serb or some other

17 ethnicity?

18 A. They introduced themselves as such. Judging by their accent, I

19 saw that they came from Serbia. Later on on several occasions, they even

20 said themselves that they lived somewhere around Titovo Uzice.

21 Q. When they came to your flat, what did they do? What was the

22 purpose of their visit?

23 A. The purpose of their visit was, first of all, to search us to see

24 whether we, as the Muslim population, had any weapons. They searched our

25 apartments thoroughly to see whether we had any weapons. In my case,

Page 1457

1 there weren't any.

2 Q. On the last occasion, on the 19th of April, you were taken to the

3 KP Dom. When you arrived at the KP Dom, what did you see outside of the

4 facility? Were there any other soldiers, any other men there?

5 A. Yes, yes, there were. Outside the building and in the part of

6 that street that leads to KP Dom, I saw quite a few destroyed and burned

7 buildings. But I also saw quite a few men in uniform who were in that

8 area around the KP Dom, where there was a lot of outside security.

9 Q. Now, the destroyed or burned buildings, do you know which ethnic

10 group they belonged to, the owners? Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Muslim, or some

11 other?

12 A. This is the main street, the main artery that leads to the KP

13 Dom. What I saw were, for the most part -- no, not for the most part, all

14 of them, I mean these were mainly Muslim houses that were burned. But

15 there were also other buildings that were burned that belonged to -- well,

16 there were restaurants, like the Cafe Bor and other buildings that were

17 used as restaurants. There were also some shop windows that belonged to

18 Muslims. Some of the shop windows were broken and they belonged to shops

19 belonging to Muslims.

20 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, the men that you saw in uniform,

21 do you know which group they came from, which army or which ethnicity they

22 belonged to?

23 A. Well, on that critical day, when I came and when they threw us out

24 in front of the door of the KP Dom, then one of the men had rank insignia

25 of a Yugoslav army officer, but according to his accent, he was a member

Page 1458












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Page 1459

1 of the Montenegrin people. He hit me and said, "If they are

2 fundamentalists, kill them immediately; if they are not, let them go

3 home."

4 Q. How did he hit you? What did he hit you with?

5 A. He hit me but he hit me with something, I mean so hard that I

6 didn't have time to see. But my right arm and shoulder blade were black.

7 It was hit so hard I couldn't even use my right hand to eat.

8 Q. The soldiers, did they come from Foca, the ones that were outside

9 of the KP Dom, or did they come from another area?

10 A. According to certain information, this was the Uzice Battalion,

11 the active and reserve force. As they returned from Herzegovina, they had

12 the task to take, together with the SDS, certain localities that were from

13 the direction of Herzegovina to the direction of Foca, Gorazde, Rudo,

14 Visegrad, Cajnice, Rogatica, et cetera.

15 Q. Were there any local residents outside with these Serbian soldiers

16 that seemed to be working with them?

17 A. Yes. They were the ones in charge, I mean in charge of pointing

18 things and people out, having them taken away. At first they were helped

19 by these paramilitaries or, rather, reservists of the Yugoslav army.

20 Q. About how many soldiers were present outside the KP Dom when you

21 arrived?

22 A. Well, they were deployed in this part of the street from the

23 bakery onwards, and the bakery is about 150 to 200 metres away from the

24 main entrance. I can't remember now. There were groups of 15, 20, 30,

25 whatever. I wasn't really interested. They drove us pretty fast so that

Page 1460

1 we would get to where we were going. But there were some groups of

2 soldiers that were controlling the entrance to the KP Dom.

3 Q. You were taken inside the KP Dom. Were you registered? Were your

4 details taken by anyone inside the KP Dom when you first arrived?

5 A. I entered together with those three neighbours of mine, and at the

6 main gate or, rather, the entranceway, on the left-hand side there was a

7 reception. At the reception was a man who had this main logbook where he

8 registered persons by their name, surname, father's name, address, place

9 of birth.

10 After that -- I mean, there was an escort all the time of two or

11 three armed soldiers. They escorted us through the halls to the other

12 building.

13 Q. And the person that was taking the details in the registration

14 book, was he a local from Foca or did you not know him?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And what was his name?

17 A. Yes. His nickname was Cakani. But people know, everybody in Foca

18 knows, but they used his nickname Cakani more than his name and surname.

19 Everybody in Foca knew who that was.

20 Q. Did he work at the KP Dom before the conflict broke out?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. As you were arrested and taken into KP Dom, did either this man

23 Cakani or anyone else advise you why you were being detained there?

24 A. No. No. He was not in charge of that. He was just in charge of

25 the entrance. We were treated like commodities and it was as if

Page 1461

1 commodities as entered.

2 Q. Do you remember which room you were taken to on the first day that

3 you arrived at the KP Dom?

4 A. Yes. Yes, I remember very well. From that gate, or, rather from

5 that reception when they took us through the halls to another gate, a

6 metal gate, an iron gate that goes into the yard where the other buildings

7 of the KP Dom are, then at the other gate we were registered once again by

8 a man who belonged to the reservists of the Uzice Battalion. They called

9 him Pisar, and he registered us again and he took all our personal

10 belongings, our lighters, cigarettes, everything that belonged to us.

11 Then he said, "If there are fundamentalists here they should be taken to

12 number 12, to the quarantine, and if not to the left. The left, that is

13 where they belong then." That was number 11 in that case.

14 Q. And what room were you taken to?

15 A. They just put us into an area in front of the toilet. Later, as

16 we were waiting for statements to be taken - that's what they said - we

17 saw an hour or an hour and a half later, after having waited for an hour,

18 an hour and a half, we saw that nothing was actually going on. And

19 accidentally a door opened and one man got out and wanted to go to the

20 toilet, and he saw us, and he said, "What are you doing there? Why don't

21 you go inside?" and then we went inside. And lo and behold, it turned out

22 that in those rooms, according to some counts, there were about 170

23 persons. Ninety per cent of them were Muslims. There were three or four

24 Catholics too.

25 Q. Thank you. Which room did you sleep in on the night of the 19th

Page 1462

1 of April? Do you know the number of it?

2 A. That was an area that consisted of four rooms or, rather, a fifth

3 one too that was used while -- before the war, this was a normal prison.

4 That room was used as a sitting room for watching television as well,

5 which was quite normal. Those four rooms were different in size, and they

6 also had different kinds of equipment or, rather, places where you could

7 lie on.

8 JUDGE HUNT: You were being asked what number the room was, if you

9 know it. That was what the question was. Do you remember what number it

10 was?

11 A. Eleven.

12 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. On the inside of the KP Dom when you first arrived, who appeared

14 to be in control of the detainees? Were they locals from Foca or are

15 these army members, these soldiers from Uzice which you said you saw out

16 the front or someone else? Which group appeared to be in control?

17 A. Well, at first I had the impression that all of this was organised

18 by those reservists of the Uzice Battalion and that they were the ones who

19 were in charge.

20 Q. At sometime later -- sorry, I withdraw that. At that time when

21 you first arrived, did you see any local people from Foca, local civilian

22 guards inside the KP Dom or not when you first arrived?

23 A. On that day when I arrived, I saw some men who were wearing

24 military uniforms, civilians, and these were the beginnings of -- I mean,

25 I think, of the guard service. That's when they were initially

Page 1463

1 organised. However, my feeling was that there was quite a bit of anarchy

2 then and that the sole persons in charge were the reservists from the

3 Uzice Battalion and the SDS provided certain services to them.

4 Q. And did the soldiers from the Uzice Battalion leave at any stage?

5 Did they leave KP Dom at some date later?

6 A. I cannot recall the exact date, but I think that this went on

7 possibly for 7 days or possibly 15 days. Ten or 15 days approximately

8 that all this went on, until a service was established which then

9 continued to function as such.

10 Q. And when you say a service was established, who was in control of

11 the detainees once this service was established? Were they locals from

12 Foca? Were they people that worked at the KP Dom before or were they

13 someone else?

14 A. For the most part these were people who previously worked in

15 certain services of the KP Dom, that is to say, before the conflict broke

16 out or, rather, they were assisted by certain solutions provided by the

17 SDS, that were imposed by the SDS.

18 Q. Were you interviewed at any stage whilst you were at the KP Dom?

19 A. Yes. I remember that as if it were today. It was the 20th of

20 April, 1992, sometime around 11.00.

21 Q. And who interviewed you?

22 A. I was escorted by a guard. My name was called out by a guard. I

23 was taken to the administrative building where there were persons who were

24 in charge of interviews, the so-called investigators or investigation

25 inspectors who had also worked as inspectors in the SUP or at that time

Page 1464

1 already the MUP.

2 Q. Do you know the names of the people that interviewed you?

3 A. I do. Let me say straight away that this was a man I knew from

4 the same company. He was a technician in the timber processing industry.

5 He worked in Iverica for some time. His name was Petko Gasevic. And

6 Zoran Vladicic actually interviewed me.

7 Q. What did they ask you basically?

8 A. As far as I can remember, the statement contained several details

9 of mine rather than what the main subject of the interview was supposed to

10 be. The subject was whether I had any weapons at home, whether I

11 purchased any weapons, if I purchased any weapons, who had I purchased

12 them from, do I know who was selling weapons, et cetera. That was it. My

13 answers were negative.

14 Q. And then that was the truth; is that correct? You had no weapons

15 and --

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. -- you weren't a member of any military force or military group

18 prior to being arrested?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did they tell you why you were being detained?

21 A. No.

22 Q. How long did this interview last for?

23 A. That interview lasted for either 30 or 40 minutes. It was not

24 longer than that, at any rate.

25 Q. And that was recorded on a typewriter; is that correct?

Page 1465

1 A. No. It was typed on a typewriter that used the Cyrillic

2 alphabet. Since I had to sign it, I saw that it was in Cyrillic. As far

3 as I can remember, it said in the heading, "The Serb Republic," et

4 cetera. That was the heading. All of it was according to the ideas of

5 some of their leaders about the establishment of their state.

6 Q. Whilst you were being interviewed, did someone enter the room whom

7 you knew?

8 A. It is with great surprise that he entered and I was even more

9 surprised when I saw my neighbour, my parents' neighbour, Milorad

10 Krnojelac, nicknamed Mico. I saw that he was very surprised too.

11 Q. Do you see him in court today? If you look around the courtroom,

12 do you see him here?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you point him out to the Court and describe what he's wearing,

15 please.

16 A. In a grey suit; he's wearing glasses. Grey suit and glasses.

17 Glasses.

18 MR. SMITH: I submit the accused has been identified.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, I'm sure he has been. Was it really necessary,

20 though?

21 MR. SMITH: More procedural than anything, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Let's get on.


24 Q. You said that you had great surprise when you saw him. Was there

25 any conversation with him whilst you were being interviewed?

Page 1466

1 A. As far as I can remember, the whole conversation boiled down to

2 the following: When we finish, that the guards should escort me to his

3 office.

4 Q. Did a guard escort you to his office?

5 A. One guard escorted me to his office.

6 Q. Where was his office? Can you describe?

7 A. The KP Dom consisted of several buildings. At the very entrance

8 was the administrative building. As far as I can remember, I gave

9 statements upstairs in a biggish room. I went downstairs. As far as I

10 can remember, that is the room where Mico Krnojelac had his office. That

11 was the first one on the left-hand side when you enter the hall, the first

12 one on the left-hand side. It's about 20 to 25 square metres.

13 MR. SMITH: I'd just ask that the usher place Prosecution Exhibit

14 61/A before the witness.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Is there really any issue left about this at this

16 time that that was the room which Mr. Krnojelac sat in, Mr. Bakrac?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would appreciate, in

18 view of the explanation that is given by the witness, we would like the

19 witness to show this room, to point it out on the diagram, because it

20 seems that the witness is talking about a room that is different from the

21 one that was mentioned earlier.

22 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, let's see it.


24 Q. Witness, can you point to the office that you were taken to when

25 you had your conversation with Mr. Krnojelac, after the interrogation?

Page 1467












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1468

1 Just take your time.

2 A. It was an office here. Here, ground floor, but a rather high

3 ground floor.

4 MR. SMITH: The witness indicates on 61/A the office in the

5 administration building with the word "Office" labelling it.

6 Q. Thank you. You can sit down now, Witness.

7 What did Mr. Krnojelac say to you when you spoke with him in the

8 office?

9 A. He offered me a coffee, a brandy, and cigarettes, and told me to

10 sit at his desk in that office. As far as I can remember, there was some

11 other furniture in that office, a small table with two armchairs. To the

12 left, there was a window and there was a kind of a glass case on the other

13 side from which there was this brandy which he had offered me and coffee.

14 That conversation was interrupted a number of times because people

15 were coming in and going out very often. I mean those armed -- those

16 uniformed men kept coming in and going out.

17 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac say what he was doing there at the KP Dom?

18 A. He told me -- I asked him, "What are you doing here?" and he said,

19 "They appointed me as the warden here."

20 Q. What else was discussed with Mr. Krnojelac?

21 A. It is very difficult to reconstruct some things the way that I'd

22 like to do, because the major part of our conversation came down to why --

23 mostly came down to why all those things were happening. My feeling was

24 that he was not for those events, that he did not support those things

25 that were happening to people of Muslim ethnicity. That was my

Page 1469

1 impression. But some men kept coming in and going and so it obstructed

2 our conversation, got in the way of our conversation.

3 Q. Did he say -- you've stated that he said, "They appointed me as

4 warden." Did he say who "they" was?

5 A. No, no.

6 Q. These soldiers that were going back and forth into the office,

7 what did they appear to be doing? Were they there to see Mr. Krnojelac,

8 or did they have some other business in that room?

9 A. At some point in time while he was present there, they asked

10 Krnojelac to have somebody taken out of the KP Dom. There was quite a

11 heated debate between him and that man, whom I did not know but who seemed

12 to be from that Uzice Battalion, kind of a commander or something.

13 Q. Did this commander state who he wanted to be taken out? Did you

14 hear the names?

15 A. No, I did not hear any names. But it was more like a pretty

16 heated debate, I should say, a pretty heated argument, could turn into a

17 conflict. He insisted that an individual be called by telephone, and I

18 could assume that it was somebody from the Crisis Staff, to be allowed to

19 take out two men. But I did not know their names at the time.

20 I learnt from a postman who came in the evening that that day,

21 around 1.00, two Green Berets had been killed, and it turned out that

22 their names were Selimovic and Isanovic.

23 Q. You mentioned that this commander insisted that somebody -- an

24 individual from the Crisis Staff be called. Did he say who should be

25 called?

Page 1470

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, sir.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection. I understood the witness

4 to say that it was the warden Krnojelac who insisted to call somebody from

5 the Crisis Staff, not that that commander -- although the commander -- the

6 transcript says, "He insisted." So perhaps the witness should clarify who

7 insisted on calling somebody from the Crisis Staff rather than have the

8 Prosecutor interpret it. The transcript says, "He insisted." We do not

9 know who the witness has in mind so that the question is a leading one.

10 JUDGE HUNT: I remind you what the evidence was: "And there was

11 quite a heated debate between him and that man and whom I do not know but

12 who seemed to be from the Uzice Battalion, kind of a commander or

13 something."

14 Now, the question here:

15 Q. You mentioned that this commander insisted that somebody

16 -- an individual from the Crisis Staff be called.

17 Now, all we want to know is not who the commander was because he

18 doesn't know but whether it was he who asked for an individual from the

19 Crisis Staff be called. Is that a leading question? I don't think so.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness said --

21 yes, you read out the part of the transcript where he said that there was

22 a debate between that commander from the Uzice Battalion -- Corps and the

23 accused Krnojelac, and after that the witness says "he insisted" to call

24 somebody from the Crisis Staff, but we don't know who "he" is. And the

25 Prosecutor now asks a question and says the commander from the Uzice Corps

Page 1471

1 insisted that somebody from the Crisis Staff be called, and yet we do not

2 know which one of the two of them called because he said only "he." We do

3 not know who "he" is.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think there is any doubt when you read the

5 transcript that the "he" that he's referring to is the commander.

6 Question was:

7 Q. Did this commander state who he wanted to be taken out?

8 Did you hear the names?

9 A. No, I did not hear any names. But it was more like a

10 pretty heated debate, I should say, a pretty heated

11 argument, could turn into a conflict. He insisted ...

12 Now "he" there must be the commander. There is no leading nature

13 to this question.

14 You proceed, Mr. Smith.

15 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac call someone on the telephone?

17 A. To resolve the dilemma, the commander -- let's call him that,

18 because he obviously had a relatively high-ranking post -- he insisted and

19 requested Krnojelac -- requested from Krnojelac to call somebody in the

20 Crisis Staff. Krnojelac then dialled a number, and after that

21 conversation, and I suppose having received an answer or perhaps an order

22 from the other side, and who else could be in the Crisis Staff but the

23 president of the Crisis Staff, that is, Stanic.

24 Q. Did you know that he was speaking to Mr. Stanic or is that your

25 assumption?

Page 1472

1 A. It was my guess, but I think it is a highly educated guess because

2 he was the principal person whenever it came to different types of

3 decisions, and I think I was confirmed in my belief when I heard what

4 other prisoners had to say.

5 Q. And why did the argument develop with this commander from the

6 Uzice Brigade? You said the commander wanted two men to be taken out.

7 Did Krnojelac say no, he wouldn't allow that, or how did the argument

8 develop?

9 A. I remember, and I believe my memory serves me - those were very

10 hard moments for me - he insisted that two men be allowed to come out, and

11 as far as I could judge, Krnojelac said, "I am responsible here inside, in

12 the KP Dom," and he did not want to give any of the men until he received

13 a document presumably from somebody, and that somebody could be the Crisis

14 Staff. In a document, in a paper that was shown to him was, according to

15 him, after the telephone conversation that paper was only initialled, that

16 Krnojelac wanted the paper to bear full signature, that is, full name of

17 the person. And he said, "I don't want -- I don't want no initials. I

18 want proper signatures."

19 Q. Who was he saying that to? Was he saying that to the commander

20 before he rang this individual or was he saying it to the person he was

21 speaking to on the telephone?

22 A. He said it to that person with whom he spoke on the telephone.

23 Q. After the telephone conversation, do you remember if there was

24 a -- was there a discussion with the commander again, the one who wanted

25 to take the two people out?

Page 1473

1 A. Nothing. Later on when that one said, "I guess that paper was

2 valid," then Krnojelac agreed with that and acted accordingly.

3 Q. And what paper are you referring to? How did Krnojelac get the

4 paper?

5 A. That paper which that commander had shown him.

6 Q. Did you see what was on the paper?

7 A. No, I did not see anything myself, but I saw that commander

8 proffer that piece of paper on which I suppose the names of those men

9 should have been written, and he gave it to Krnojelac. I was at least

10 3 metres away from that paper so that I could not see or read anything.

11 Q. After this soldier left the room did you have a further discussion

12 with Mr. Krnojelac?

13 A. My task then was, my wish, as a matter of fact, because (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted).And during those days, I simply could not find out, because the

16 telephones were out of order, so I couldn't find out whether he was still

17 alive. I seized the opportunity to ask Krnojelac to enable me, if

18 possible, to go and see my uncle, just to see whether he was still alive.

19 Q. And what did Mr. Krnojelac say? Did he allow that to happen?

20 A. He did allow it, but this authorisation was not valid because he

21 had to ask some -- somebody from the Uzice Battalion units. Later on,

22 that man came and said I could, provided that his men escorted me and his

23 son who gave me a ride.

24 Q.When you first requested Mr. Krnojelac to visit your uncle (redacted)

25 was there anyone else in the office? Was there any other soldiers in the

Page 1474

1 office when you made that request?

2 A. Only his son.

3 Q. And what was his son wearing, and was he armed?

4 A. Yes. He had an automatic -- well, whether it was -- well, he had

5 a weapon. No. It was an automatic rather than automatic rifle.

6 Q. And when you say that Mr. Krnojelac did allow it but his

7 authorisation was not valid because he had to ask somebody, didn't

8 argument occur with one of the soldiers in relation to this incident or

9 not?

10 A. In the beginning it was very difficult, but later on, that

11 commander, that authorised official, mellowed. He must have had some

12 responsibility, and he allowed that with the escort of two of them, that

13 is, Milorad's son and that one from Uzice Corps, a postman, if I remember

14 well. That's how he introduced himself. They took me in a Lada car to

15 the house in which my uncle lived.

16 Q. And this commander you're referring to, is that the same commander

17 you were referring to who asked that two men be taken out of the KP Dom or

18 is it someone different?

19 A. Another man. That was the only time I saw him, both of them. The

20 first and the last time.

21 Q. And you said in relation to the request it was -- in the beginning

22 it was very difficult but later on the commander, the authorised official,

23 allowed it. Was there an argument between Krnojelac and this commander

24 about you going to see your uncle?

25 A. Well, yes, they argued, and he said, yes, I could visit my uncle

Page 1475

1 if his men accompanied me. And he told that man of his, "At any sign that

2 he has some ill-intention, shoot him."

3 Q. That was the commander said to the soldier that was escorting you

4 to shoot you if you had some ill-intention; is that right?

5 A. That's right, yes.

6 Q. So you went to see your uncle with this soldier that was

7 authorised by the commander and Krnojelac's son; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. You went to (redacted) house and then you returned to

10 the KP Dom that same day; is that correct?

11 A. It is.

12 Q. Did you ever meet or have a conversation with the accused at some

13 later time, at the end of April?

14 A. I did, yes.

15 Q. At the end of April, you were staying in Room 15; is that

16 correct?

17 A. It is, yes.

18 Q. How did you know that Mr. Krnojelac -- did you want to see

19 Mr. Krnojelac or did he ask for you?

20 A. That day he spoke on the telephone, while telephones were still in

21 working order, and he spoke to my brother and he asked him to help me, if

22 possible, to get out of the camp.

23 Q. How were you told about this phone call? Where were you when you

24 discovered that this phone call had occurred between Mr. Krnojelac and

25 your brother?

Page 1476












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Page 1477

1 A. I did not know that there was this telephone conversation. I

2 found out about that later when I came to the office, where there was this

3 telephone in Krnojelac's office, because a guard came to fetch me and took

4 me to the office with a telephone. It was then that I had the opportunity

5 to see Krnojelac. And I remember how then my wife had, by accident, also

6 come, trying to bring some cigarettes and perhaps some food for me.

7 Q. Was the guard a civilian guard or a soldier?

8 A. The guard was in uniform. He wore a penitentiary uniform and also

9 had the patches of the penitentiary, of the KP Dom. At that time, the

10 guard services were gradually taking shape as before the war, because

11 almost all of them were of Serb ethnicity. And those who used to work at

12 the penitentiary as guards before the war had been issued -- had been

13 ordered to go on with that work.

14 Q. Just to be clear, Mr. Krnojelac asked for you, through the guard,

15 rather than you asking to see Mr. Krnojelac; is that correct?

16 A. It is.

17 Q. Do you know the name of the guard that took you to Mr. Krnojelac's

18 office?

19 A. As far as I can remember, it could be -- because he was the one

20 who was usually in touch with us, and his last name was Obrenovic. As far

21 as I can remember, it could have been Obrenovic.

22 Q. Where were you taken to? Were you taken to the same place that

23 you had your first conversation with Mr. Krnojelac on the 20th of April,

24 or were you taken to a different office?

25 A. Same place, same office.

Page 1478

1 Q. Did you speak to your brother on the telephone?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac speak to you before you spoke to your brother,

4 or did you go immediately to the phone?

5 A. Immediately, I spoke immediately on the phone.

6 Q. Just to be clear, your brother said to you that he would like you

7 to be exchanged; is that right?

8 A. Yes, it is right. My brother was a prominent businessman and also

9 was involved in political life in Sarajevo --

10 Q. If I can just stop you there. Perhaps if you don't give any

11 further details about your brother, but just explain what he actually said

12 to you about the exchange. Provide some more details, if you can.

13 A. As far as I can remember, the conversation revolved around the

14 exchange. Krnojelac also insisted on this: that (redacted) should try to

15 find somebody to swap for me.

16 Q. Did Krnojelac assist you any further in how you could do this, in

17 how you could organise this swap, or was it simply the idea he gave you?

18 A. It was the idea which he suggested to my brother and myself. I

19 was helpless; my brother did stand a chance. But I did not want it.

20 Q. When you say you did not want it, what do you mean by that? You

21 did not want to be exchanged?

22 A. Correct, because my motive, my reasons were that I had never

23 harmed anyone, that I had never done anything wrong, that I had never

24 wronged anyone, and that I was always trying to help people as much as I

25 could, regardless of his ethnic origin.

Page 1479

1 Q. Was your brother offering himself for an exchange or was he

2 referring to someone else to be exchanged for you?

3 A. The gist of it was to find my brother in Sarajevo or somewhere,

4 doesn't matter where, to find a Serb of some merit, a relatively

5 high-ranking Serb, and then I was swapped.

6 Q. You told your brother you didn't want this to happen.

7 A. Correct. That is what I told my brother and what I told Krnojelac

8 too.

9 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac take this matter any further after you told him

10 you didn't want to be exchanged?

11 A. No, I don't know what happened next.

12 Q. Did you have another meeting with the accused whilst you were at

13 the KP Dom?

14 A. Yes, I did. My main concern was my uncle; I was worried about my

15 uncle. He did not have anyone to help him. He was sick and old. I

16 insisted, through these guards, that I get in touch with the warden.

17 Q. Do you remember which guards you asked to speak to Mr. Krnojelac?

18 Do you remember the names of the guards?

19 A. Well, usually, three or four policemen, for the most part, were in

20 contact. I mean, we were staying in Room 15, and then from the park

21 upwards they would call out our names if there were any calls for us.

22 Sometimes they would come to the door too and call our names out, but

23 usually it was from down there in the yard that the name of a person would

24 be called out, that is to say, a person who would have the opportunity of

25 seeing the warden. That could be Obrenovic once again.

Page 1480

1 Q. How many times did you ask the guards to see the warden before you

2 actually did see him? How many attempts had you made before you finally

3 saw him, in relation to your uncle?

4 A. Well, I can tell you that it was very difficult to get in touch

5 with the warden. If one went through the guards, the guards always gave

6 some kind of negative information, that he was absent, that he was here or

7 there. So a person wouldn't even feel like asking any more whether one

8 could establish contact with him.

9 Q. Which uncle are you referring to that was old and sick?

10 A. Yes, yes, (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. Did you finally get to see Mr. Krnojelac about your uncle?

15 A. Yes, yes, once.

16 Q. Where did you see him?

17 A. Once I saw him -- yes, yes.

18 Q. Where did you see him?

19 A. I saw him. I was invited to rooms at the same level. This room

20 was biggish. It was like a meeting room.

21 Q. Was that on the ground floor of the administration building?

22 A. The ground floor of the administrative building.

23 Q. When was this? When was this meeting?

24 A. Well, I cannot say exactly which day it was, but it could be

25 around the end of June or beginning of July. Something like that. The

Page 1481

1 end of June.

2 Q. Were you escorted there to the room where Krnojelac was or did you

3 go down there of your own accord? How did you get there?

4 A. I was escorted by the guard who had called out my name. He

5 brought me into the room and told me where I was supposed to sit in that

6 room.

7 Q. And what was your discussion with Mr. Krnojelac? What did he say

8 and what did you say?

9 A. Well, as far as I can remember, the subject of the conversation

10 was precisely my uncle. At the same time, for purely human reasons, I

11 asked him, "Mica, what do you need this for? Why don't you go and do your

12 own job?" That is to say that the conversation focused on my uncle. But

13 by the way, I said to him, as far as I could remember, that he should

14 leave that job that he held, that he should turn to his job.

15 Q. And what did he say when you suggested to him that he should leave

16 his job?

17 A. I think that there was no answer.

18 Q. Why did you say that to him? Why did you say that he should leave

19 his job at the KP Dom?

20 A. Well, he was a teacher of mathematics by profession, and it would

21 have been much smarter for him to stick to his own job rather than do

22 something that he was not qualified for. I said it with good intentions,

23 as to a neighbour who I know well.

24 Q. How long did this conversation last for with Mr. Krnojelac?

25 A. Relatively short. Relatively short. Perhaps it was about 20

Page 1482

1 minutes. Not longer than that. As long as possible. I even got coffee

2 then, as you can well imagine. These were two small cups, so the time

3 that it took me to take this little cup of coffee, that's how long the

4 conversation lasted.

5 Q. You said that you were concerned about your uncle. That's why you

6 originally went to see him. Did Mr. Krnojelac say he would do anything in

7 relation to your uncle?

8 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. He promised me that he would do whatever he

9 could. Since his house was burned during the first onslaught, his chances

10 were lesser in terms of helping me. I had heard that he went somewhere

11 else to live, but he promised that he would help.

12 Q. Did he say what he would particularly do?

13 A. Well, food was what was primarily borne in mind then.

14 Q. Now, this conversation with Mr. Krnojelac doesn't appear in your

15 previous statements or the diary that you've written and was published in

16 the newspaper. This conversation was told to the Prosecution office for

17 the first time the other day. Why is that? Why hasn't it appeared in

18 your statements or your diary in the past?

19 A. Well, since I'm a citizen of Foca, I was born in Foca, I have

20 quite a bit of contact with persons who are familiar with what happened

21 there. In context of the current developments, in terms of the refugees,

22 the return of refugees to their homes, what is often discussed are my

23 memories of those days.

24 As I leafed through my memory, so to speak, I remembered that I

25 had such a conversation which I could not register anywhere on paper in

Page 1483

1 order to make it the subject of my previous statements.

2 Q. And did you have a further conversation with Mr. Krnojelac at some

3 later time about your uncle?

4 A. Sometime around mid-July, at the insistence of one man who was in

5 the room with me. It was some kind of carpets that were supposed to be

6 cleaned, because rumour had it that the Red Cross or the Red Crescent

7 would be coming in to inspect everything. So then the whole place had to

8 be cleaned inside and outside, everything that had to do with everyday

9 life. However, I was cleaning -- I was cleaning the carpeting in the

10 hallway or, rather, washing it with this other fellow. Krnojelac passed

11 by and said hello to me, offered me a cigarette. He had set out in the

12 direction of the kitchen, the restaurant. I don't know. Somewhere in

13 that direction. This lasted for about five or six minutes. Then again I

14 drew his attention to my uncle and asked him about him.

15 Q. And what did he say when you expressed your concern about your

16 uncle?

17 A. Well, the information that was reaching the KP Dom only came from

18 new prisoners; that is to say, if a new prisoner were brought in, then he

19 would bring in information. It is very interesting to note that such

20 information would go throughout the building very quickly. There were no

21 walls in that sense, so to speak. We knew about lots of things that were

22 going on, about the anarchy in town, that is to say, the killings, the

23 atrocities committed against the Muslims who had remained in town.

24 Q. If you can just refer your mind to the particular question. What

25 did Mr. Krnojelac say when you asked about your uncle, when you spoke to

Page 1484

1 him whilst you were washing the carpets?

2 A. I had to say this, what I said just now, because if I have some

3 kind of information, for what it was worth -- I mean, he asked me, you

4 know, like if he were to be killed or to die, where he would be buried.

5 Q. Was he referring to your uncle?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Was the meeting a long meeting or a short one?

8 A. Very short. Perhaps five or six minutes.

9 Q. You mentioned that there were civilian guards at the KP Dom after

10 the changeover, after about seven or ten days. Who was in charge? Who

11 was responsible for those guards? Who was the supervisor?

12 A. In the pre-war period, I had contacts, relatively speaking, with

13 this KP Dom, but in an economic sense. I never knew anybody practically

14 by name and surname, I mean, these guards. Even these people who were

15 with me, they were from a different environment and they knew practically

16 all the guards. After about ten days or so, a different setup was

17 organised in the KP Dom. This different organisation primarily had to

18 deal with the very same people who worked before this war. They wore the

19 same uniforms, they had the same guard commander, Mitar Rasevic, who was

20 the commander-in-chief of the guard before that as well.

21 Q. And did you know a Savo Todovic whilst you were at the KP Dom?

22 A. Before the war, I knew Todovic. I mean, I knew some Todovics, but

23 I did not know this Savo Todovic before the war. It was the first time

24 that I saw him, I mean, at the KP Dom. That's when I first saw and met

25 Savo Todovic.

Page 1485












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1486

1 Q. And what was Todovic's role at the KP Dom, do you know?

2 A. According to some indications, and indications are quite

3 different, I mean, in terms of what I can know, he could be, within an

4 organisational schematic, the person in charge of security inside and

5 outside the facility, including people. He's the one who said who should

6 do what if anything was to be done.

7 Q. And what are you referring to there? Is that in relation to work

8 that's done at KP Dom or is it in relation to things generally?

9 A. When I said inside and outside security and assigning what was to

10 be done inside and outside the KP Dom, Savo Todovic was the main person

11 who was responsible and who was in charge.

12 Q. Whilst you were in the KP Dom, did you do any work, any physical

13 labour?

14 A. Luckily, no. During my stay at the KP Dom, I was not mistreated

15 physically, nor did I have any jobs except for what I mentioned earlier,

16 cleaning those carpets. But that was, at that time, a chance to get out

17 of the building and to relax.

18 Q. Whilst you were there -- sorry. If I can ask you, when did you

19 leave the KP Dom? What date did you finally leave?

20 A. From the KP Dom, if my memory serves me well, I was supposed to

21 leave on the 28th. We were familiarised with a piece of information, very

22 secret. The propaganda was such that you could not believe a thing that

23 was being said.

24 Q. I'll ask you a few questions a bit later about how you left. But

25 what date did you leave the KP Dom for the last time, if you can remember?

Page 1487

1 A. The 29th and 30th of August.

2 Q. In that four-and-a-half-month period that you were detained at the

3 KP Dom, were other detainees performing work duties whilst you were there?

4 A. Yes, yes, they were.

5 Q. Just being very brief, if you could just state the types of

6 activities these detainees were doing. Just the types of work that were

7 being undertaken by them whilst you were there.

8 A. There were several groups. One group, 10 or 15 persons, worked in

9 the furniture factory. Another group, a few of them worked in the

10 kitchen, cleaning and serving there. There were also a few who worked on

11 cleaning the premises. There was also a group in the mechanical workshop,

12 about ten of them who went outside the building; they worked in this

13 sense.

14 And one of the biggest groups was the construction group, which,

15 for the most part, consisted of some 20 men. In this period, I can't

16 remember whether it was May or June, I remember that they were taking the

17 roof off the elementary school in the very centre.

18 There were also jobs that came up occasionally, from time to time,

19 at the very beginning; the transfer of flour from the silos in Ustikolina

20 to Perucica, to Gornje Polje, to the warehouse there. There were groups

21 that had been formed for working in sawmills -- a sawmill, rather, at

22 Brod, et cetera.

23 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, did you know a Zdravko Begovic?

24 Zdravko Begovic.

25 A. Zdravko Begovic belonged to a part of the Crisis Staff for

Page 1488

1 logistics. He was usually seen in the buildings where certain looted

2 things were supposed to be stored, that is to say, the transport of such

3 goods to warehouses, certain warehouses. He handled not only these looted

4 goods but also the procurement of goods for the very existence of the

5 population in town, through legal means. He also played a very important

6 role in logistics in the SDS staff.

7 Q. Were any of the detainees involved with the looting of goods with

8 Zdravko Begovic?

9 A. Well, they participated in the loading and unloading of goods.

10 There were certain private shops that had their own workshops for car

11 repairs, mechanics, the making of furniture, carpentry, et cetera. All

12 these machines were brought to the yard and warehouse of the KP Dom. What

13 was usable, like flour and other supplies, according to the stories told

14 by the men who were doing the loading and unloading, were put into the

15 warehouses of the former enterprise of Perucica.

16 Q. Now, you said that whilst you were at the KP Dom, apart from some

17 carpet cleaning, you weren't involved in any other type of labour. So I

18 assume that you heard about this labour through other prisoners; is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes, yes. This was not only one day, they did that practically

21 every day. They always talked about what they saw, who they saw, and what

22 they did, because every piece of information, for us who were locked up

23 for practically 24 hours, who did not even dare go to the window to look,

24 was food for us. I mean every piece of information was some kind of joy.

25 Well, I can't really put it that way, but it was food for the soul when

Page 1489

1 you would find things out from persons who had seen something. If they

2 saw some Serbs who we thought were not extremists or some Muslims, et

3 cetera, we were -- well, it's not that we were joyful, but we were glad to

4 hear about that.

5 Q. About how many people worked at the KP Dom whilst you were there?

6 In terms of the detainees, I'm talking about.

7 A. Well, not every day. But at first it was every day. Later,

8 less. It could have been about 50 people who were involved, in my

9 estimate.

10 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I think now might be a good time to

11 break.

12 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 2.30, then.

13 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.













Page 1490

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

3 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. There's a couple of questions I'd just

5 like to clear up in relation to your meetings with the accused,

6 Mr. Krnojelac. You mentioned to the Court that you had conversations with

7 him on four occasions, one on the 20th of April, one at the end of April,

8 one at the end of June, the beginning of July, and another one towards the

9 end of July. During those meetings, do you remember what clothes he was

10 wearing? Was he wearing civilian dress or military dress?

11 A. As far as my memory serves me, in the beginning he was in

12 civilian, but later on he began wearing military dress, and I remember

13 well that meeting, that occasion when I washed carpets. That is when I

14 saw him in military clothes.

15 Q. When you met him in the hall in the administration building when

16 you originally asked about your uncle at the end of June, beginning of

17 July, do you remember whether he was in military or civilian at that

18 time?

19 A. Inside during all those meetings, as far as I can remember, he was

20 in civilian. And when I saw him outside, that is when he wore military

21 dress.

22 Q. And what colour was that and what style was it?

23 A. It was the standard military clothes, that is, olive-grey military

24 army colour. We called it SMB, which means grey/olive-green.

25 Q. Did you notice whether he had a weapon on his uniform at that

Page 1491

1 time?

2 A. No. At that time I did not see it. I did not. But to be quite

3 honest, I really wasn't interested. All I was looking for was a

4 possibility to talk to him in the manner that I wanted to.

5 Q. At your meeting in the hall at the end of June, you asked

6 Mr. Krnojelac to organise some food for your uncle who you were concerned

7 about who was in Foca town at that time. Do you know whether he in fact

8 did deliver to your uncle or organise that food he got to him?

9 A. No, I do not know. I never had any feedback information.

10 Q. Is your uncle still alive today, the uncle that you asked

11 Mr. Krnojelac to assist?

12 A. No, he isn't. But it was only as late as 1996 that I learned that

13 he had been buried in a common grave.

14 Q. And when did he die?

15 A. It is my guess that it could have been August 1992.

16 Q. Do you know how he died?

17 A. There are several versions, that he was killed and that he starved

18 to death. There are some indicia that he was killed, as I told you

19 before.

20 Q. You also mentioned that on the 20th of April, when you had the

21 meeting with Mr. Krnojelac about going to visit your uncle that day, his

22 son was present, Mr. Krnojelac's son was present in uniform. Can you

23 explain what type of uniform that was?

24 A. Yes. He wore a camouflage military uniform.

25 Q. And did he have a weapon with him?

Page 1492

1 A. He did, an automatic.

2 Q. That was an automatic gun?

3 A. An automatic. I mean, that was, I think, his personal weapon.

4 Q. And do you know that son's name?

5 A. It escapes me. I know him well but the name just escapes me at

6 the moment.

7 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac say why he was there with him?

8 A. In that -- during that conflict between that man who, in a way,

9 threatened him concerning the delivery of those men, then as far as I can

10 see, and I also remember that he said, "My son is the only one I trust."

11 And after all, he was also his bodyguard.

12 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac's son stay his bodyguard after you saw him that

13 day; do you know?

14 A. I think he did, but I don't know how long. Not too long, though.

15 Q. You mentioned that you knew Mr. Krnojelac from before the war.

16 Can you give a little bit more detail of how well you knew him and how you

17 knew him?

18 A. Krnojelac taught mathematics in the elementary school, Veselin

19 Maslesa, which my daughters also enrolled in and completed.

20 Secondly, I know him well -- well, relatively well. He was a new

21 neighbour. He had just built a house near my parents and my uncle; he had

22 built it together with his brother. At that time, we had very proper

23 neighbourly relations.

24 Q. Would you have classified him as a good friend or an acquaintance?

25 A. Well, it's difficult to explain. I don't know. All I can say is

Page 1493

1 as neighbours, not as a friend, because we did not really socialise.

2 Acquaintance, no, rather as my parents' neighbour rather than as an

3 acquaintance. Even though we knew one another, we did not have much in

4 common so we didn't have much to discuss, because he had, of course, his

5 friends and I had mine. So that he, as a neighbour, was decent, was quite

6 all right, and in that regard, I cannot say anything bad about him.

7 Q. Do you know whether he was involved in politics in 1992?

8 A. No. I mean I don't know, and that is why I was so surprised when

9 I saw him down there or, rather, when he found me in the KP Dom.

10 Q. Do you know whether he had a cafe at his house?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And was that operational before the war, in 1992?

13 A. It was.

14 Q. Do you know whether a particular type of people would go to that

15 cafe, any ethnic group in particular or any people that were affiliated to

16 a political party, or was it just a regular cafe where people of all

17 different groups would go?

18 A. As far as I can remember, in the beginning -- in the end of 1991

19 and beginning of 1992, quite a number of coffee bars became known as

20 monoethnic coffee bars, and that coffee bar was also one patronised by

21 young men who belonged to one and the same ethnic community, as far as I

22 could see. It did happen now and then - I did not hear that but I heard

23 it from my close relatives - that at night, one could hear many songs, the

24 contents of which was not quite proper, rather, which were highly coloured

25 by jingoism and which were historically destructive.

Page 1494












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1495

1 Q. And which ethnic group would frequent that coffee bar?

2 A. Of Serb ethnicity.

3 Q. You said the songs were historically destructive. Can you be more

4 particular? Destructive to any group of people or to the country in

5 general?

6 A. Well, it was at that time that fascist songs, Chetnik songs began

7 to emerge, those that were sung in 1941, 1942, 1943, when Draza Mihajlovic

8 played a main role, and his name was most frequently mentioned in those

9 songs. They brought Fascism back to life, and that is why I say it was

10 historically, jingoistically destructive singing of those songs with very

11 heavy words and contents, and in the period of -- which reflected the

12 Turkish times or the Ottoman times or in the time when the monarchy's

13 Draza Mihajlovic was there, when he was their commander.

14 Q. Just to be clear, are you saying that you were told that the songs

15 emanating from the cafe were derogatory to Bosnian Muslims or people of

16 Bosnian Muslim descent?

17 A. Yes, correct.

18 Q. I'd like --

19 A. Not only that. Most of the coffee bars there had a similar

20 program, and most young men who patronised those coffee bars, because

21 madness this already set in, a sickness which spread among the youth.

22 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to go back to the topic of labour at the

23 KP Dom, labour performed by detainees.

24 You mentioned earlier that about 50 people seemed to be involved

25 in the performance of labour at the KP Dom whilst you were there, and you

Page 1496

1 listed a number of groups and the type of labour they were involved in.

2 Do you know whether some prisoners were forced to clear mines?

3 A. Yes. It was tragic to watch one of them who drove a lorry every

4 day in front of the column or a part of transport or men, according to the

5 information, a lorry, a truck, which was used as a deminer. There were

6 three of those men, as far as I can remember, and I can especially single

7 out one who perished rapidly, who in about 15 or 20 days time, he could

8 not walk without a stick any longer so he quickly withered. I can give

9 you his name if you want me to.

10 Q. Yes, the name of that person and also the name of the other two.

11 A. This person that I just mentioned, his nickname was Hrusco, and

12 his last name is Islambasic, and it was both funny and sad to look at how

13 he was physically fading out. Another one was Hamed Celik. Hamed Celik.

14 And the third one was Gosa Kukavica. That was his last name.

15 Q. Do you know the first name of Islambasic? Not his nickname but

16 his first name?

17 A. It escapes me. I know that the other one was Hamed Celik, and

18 Islambasic is -- no, I simply can't. I know where he works to this day in

19 Sarajevo.

20 Q. And is it your evidence that these three men were asked to drive

21 lorries to clear mines in front of some other vehicles?

22 A. I -- we know. We heard from them what they did because they told

23 us what they had to do, and that is why I said and I underlined how

24 horrible that job was. It wasn't difficult to drive the lorry, but the

25 uncertainty, whether they would survive. And it was this psychological

Page 1497

1 and physical torture that he -- that his withering away was so conspicuous

2 that he eventually had to use a cane, a stick.

3 Q. Who were they clearing the mines for?

4 A. As a rule, according to their story, they would drive a lorry

5 empty and would move in the direction towards those places which had been

6 the sites of the -- scenes of conflict or fighting between the BH army and

7 the SDS. So those were -- that was the way to clear the mines, to demine

8 the infantry or anti-tank mines, to have a lorry go first, and if it comes

9 across a mine then it blows up and the area for others is clear, I mean,

10 for those behind the truck. They have then a clear area in front of them.

11 Q. And on about how many occasions were they asked to do this? On

12 how many occasions did they drive these lorries to clear the mines?

13 A. I don't know how many times, but the feeling I have is that they

14 did it every day.

15 Q. Did these three men tell you about this or did you hear this

16 through other prisoners?

17 A. I heard it from them personally. It was straight from the horse's

18 mouth while I was in the camp.

19 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the individual Kukavica is E38 on the

20 Schedule; Hrusco Islambasic could be E28 or E29, it's unclear; (redacted)

21 (redacted) on the Schedule.

22 A. (redacted). Correction, Hamdija Celik, not Celic but Celik,

23 "k".


25 Q. My pronunciation hasn't been the best throughout this case. In

Page 1498

1 relation to the labour that these 50, this group of 50 had to perform over

2 this four and a half -- over this period that you were at the KP Dom, in

3 the main was it voluntary or were they forced to do it?

4 A. There was some voluntary work and there were -- and some were

5 forced to do it, but most people were forced to do it because in that way

6 they earn the right to a double portion, to a double ration. So that was

7 motivation for them to get yet another slice of bread or perhaps something

8 else.

9 Q. And apart from this double portion, this extra slice of bread or

10 extra food, was there any payment for the work that these people

11 undertook?

12 A. No. No.

13 Q. And the fruits of the work of these detainees, the people that

14 moved the flour, the people that helped in the furniture factory, where

15 did product go? For whose benefit was it? Was it for the people of the

16 Foca town? Was it for the prison's benefit? Was it for the army effort,

17 the SDS military effort? Do you know?

18 A. Some I do know but some I don't. Foca is a part of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which is, in a way, an impasse, a blind alley, in

20 terms of a road network or possibility of communication, a dead-end. And

21 at that time, I know that some of the commodities which the furniture

22 factory was finishing, that that was transported to Serbia or Montenegro

23 in exchange for foodstuffs. The rest, I don't know where and how the food

24 was distributed or how it was purchased.

25 Q. Who was in charge of the working groups overall, the allocation of

Page 1499

1 people to different particular groups? Was there one person in charge of

2 this programme?

3 A. Well, I was present when one of those men who earned a second

4 helping, a piece of bread, when one of those reported. I volunteered, and

5 I know that the one who was assigning them refused to take him. But

6 according to what we talked about, Savo Todovic was the one who looked

7 after the need for labour for various jobs.

8 Q. Was it common knowledge amongst the detainees that people -- that

9 these people were working whilst you were there, or did only a select few

10 know about this work?

11 A. Everybody knew about it. Everybody, down to the last one in the

12 camp, everybody knew where other people went. Well, perhaps not 100 per

13 cent, but -- and if not the first day, that is, the day of the arrival,

14 but everybody tells something to somebody else so that one could learn

15 about the whereabouts of everybody, about what he'd heard about somebody,

16 what he'd done or what somebody else had done, or where he'd worked, and

17 so on.

18 Q. I'd now like to move to your health whilst you were in the KP

19 Dom. Is it correct that whilst you were in the KP Dom you had a heart

20 attack?

21 A. I had an infarction in the KP Dom. I also had an inflammation of

22 my left jaw; I also suffered from testicular inflammation. And my right

23 side of my body was blocked. After the beatings, it deteriorated so that

24 after I was released, I went straight to the hospital for several months

25 and then went back to the hospital several times after that.

Page 1500

1 Q. When you say "after the beatings," you mentioned earlier that you

2 were hit prior to going into the KP Dom by one of these soldiers from

3 Uzice. Was there any other time that you were beaten?

4 A. As for the physical ill-treatment that I experienced, it was all

5 outside the KP Dom. Within the KP Dom, nobody harassed me physically.

6 Q. Going back to your heart condition. Did you have a heart problem

7 before you entered the KP Dom?

8 A. No, never. I never -- during my 30-year-long career, I have never

9 had a day's -- a day of sick-leave.

10 Q. Where did you have your heart attack in the KP Dom? How long did

11 it last? Did people assist you? Did you complain? Did you ask for

12 medical treatment?

13 A. One of the inmates -- among some of the inmates, there were some

14 who had had two bypasses. A number of them had had two infarctions and

15 they had certain medicines with them. So when it happened to me, I, quite

16 by accident, happened to be near such a man and he gave me an Aspirin of

17 sorts and it helped me to no end. I suffered pain here and here, under

18 the armpit.

19 When I had the first occasion to see a doctor in the KP Dom, I

20 then complained. But that pain was minor. He then listened, using the

21 stethoscope, and on the basis of those symptoms and others that the

22 physicians know, he told me that I had survived a heart infarction.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, it may or may not be important, but the

24 first indication that he showed of the pain, he held his hand somewhere at

25 his chest. I couldn't see because of the screen in front of him. Are you

Page 1501

1 able to tell us where he put his hand?

2 MR. SMITH: I thought he put it in a different place than it is

3 now, but perhaps I'll ask the question again.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. On the left chest. Actually, I thought he had

5 it a bit higher but that doesn't matter. We know that it was in the area

6 of his chest, on the left-hand side.

7 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. After you had the heart attack, who was the first person that you

9 let know that you had it, in terms of the guards or a doctor?

10 A. Well, quite a bit of time had gone by. Look, in those rooms where

11 we slept, everyone was concerned about himself. Nobody felt like

12 communicating with the others. There was no chance of anyone helping

13 you. How could anyone help you, and with what?

14 However, it so happened that I had one of these men who gave me

15 this Aspirin because he was using this Aspirin too, and that reduced the

16 pain. I don't know whether it was after five or seven days that the pain

17 diminished altogether. Then I told the doctor about this. Then the

18 doctor said, on the basis of these symptoms - he examined me too with a

19 stethoscope - he said, "You have survived a heart attack." Whether it was

20 of lesser or greater intensity, that I don't know. I do know that I found

21 out, when it was first possible, that there were scars. X-rays and other

22 sophisticated equipment showed this, and then they told me that I had

23 suffered a heart attack, an infarction.

24 Q. After you had the heart attack, you asked to see the doctor

25 yourself; is that right?

Page 1502

1 A. The doctor had -- I mean, we had the chance of seeing a doctor

2 about seven or ten days -- no, no. Every seven or ten days a doctor came

3 to see us, and he examined us formally.

4 Q. I'm referring to this specific case. After you had your heart

5 attack, did you ask to see the doctor? When did you ask to see him or

6 her? Was it that same day or a day later?

7 A. I think this was a few days later. We did not have the right to

8 inform any one of the guards about our illnesses. We did not have a

9 chance, we did not have a theoretical chance, we did not have a

10 possibility of giving anyone information about ourselves, about being ill

11 or whatever. Only if someone had died. If somebody would die, then

12 everybody would have to know.

13 Q. So did you ask for assistance direct to the doctor five or seven

14 days later, or did you ask a guard after those couple of days?

15 A. No, no. I only asked the guard to put me on the list for

16 examinations by the doctor when my turn would come and when the doctor

17 would come, whenever he would come, in 10 or 15 days, whatever. But I

18 should be on the list, that was the point, the list for examinations.

19 Q. Was there a possibility to see the doctor earlier than that?

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. Once you saw the doctor, did he give you -- did he treat you for

22 your heart condition?

23 A. Yes, yes. Aspirin.

24 Q. Did he say that you should have some further medicine over and

25 above Aspirin, or did he believe that Aspirin was the right treatment?

Page 1503












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Page 1504

1 A. He said that he didn't have the opportunity, nor did I, nor did

2 anyone, to get the necessary Aspirin. But in that pharmacy that belonged

3 to the KP Dom, there was not any medicine, not that kind either, any

4 medicine that could be used by us, the prisoners.

5 Q. How is your heart today? Has your condition improved back to

6 normal since you were at the KP Dom, or do you still have problems with

7 your heart?

8 A. Living conditions, time, everything related to that. Of course I

9 have problems until this very day. I cannot walk very much; I get tired

10 easily. I cannot bend forwards; I feel faint immediately. And many other

11 problems that I have, not to mention that I lost quite a few teeth there,

12 that I did not have a chance to have my teeth done afterwards. I have

13 problems until the present day with my urinary tract. Until the present

14 day, I've been to see a physical therapist over 30 times for a part of my

15 body and for my arm. It is hard for me to do certain things, and that is

16 probably part of the consequences.

17 Also, perhaps my life has just been spent. The greatest tragedy

18 of all is that I see no light in this tunnel that is my future and my

19 health.

20 Q. Just going back to the inflammation of your jaw and losing teeth,

21 did something happen in the KP Dom to make you lose your teeth or was it

22 just a natural occurrence?

23 A. I already said that at first the doctor would be present every

24 seven days or so. Later on, once in 15 or 20 days. You could not get

25 your turn for any kind of intervention no matter what you were sick of

Page 1505

1 because it was the guard who decided whose name he'd enter in the list,

2 and there were quite a few requests. It's not that the guard decided on

3 the degree of -- on the basis of the degree of illness involved but on the

4 basis of the names of persons. Then he would decide who to put on this

5 list to go see the doctor.

6 Q. Do you know why you lost your teeth whilst you were at the

7 KP Dom?

8 A. Probably the lack of vitamins and no means of hygiene and no

9 dental care.

10 Q. You said you had a stiffened arm. How did your arm become stiff?

11 What was the cause of that?

12 A. Well, when they brought us into the camp, before that I had

13 suffered some physical mistreatment, but one of the most severe blows was

14 when they kicked me, as we say in Bosnia, here in the right-hand side. We

15 say that a man can see all the stars in the sky when hit in this way.

16 Later on, when you cannot treat it properly, then, since there was

17 no intervention by a doctor or something, my entire right side went

18 stiff.

19 Q. And when were you kicked, before you arrived at the KP Dom?

20 A. Before entering through the main door. One of these Uzice

21 reservists, especially when this superior of theirs said, "If they're

22 fundamentalists, kill them immediately. If they're not, take them home."

23 Q. Then in relation to your heart attack, why were you not taken to

24 the Foca hospital?

25 A. It would take quite a bit of time if I would tell you that the

Page 1506

1 most serious patients from the hospital were taken to the KP Dom if they

2 were of Muslim ethnicity. Therefore, there was no one in the KP Dom, even

3 if he suffered from the greatest possible illness, who had a chance of

4 being transferred to the regional medical centre. The most serious

5 patients, in terms of their age and the degree of their illness, were

6 brought to the KP Dom. People suffering from tuberculosis, people who

7 were wounded, women, children. I don't need to go into all that now, but

8 if I were to tell you about it in detail, it would take all day.

9 Q. We won't take all day with it, but just a number. About how many

10 patients from the Foca hospital were taken to the KP Dom, just a number,

11 and detained there, approximately, whilst you were there?

12 A. Well, I know about 50.

13 THE INTERPRETER: "Fifteen." Interpreter's mistake.

14 A. I don't know all their names, but I know some of their names.

15 Some are dead now. Some died in other countries.


17 Q. I'd now like to ask about the food you received. On the day that

18 you went into the KP Dom, about how much did you weigh?

19 A. I weighed 76 kilograms. According to certain standards, that

20 was more than what would be required. However, when I got out of the

21 KP Dom and after being treated medically in Serbia, in a certain place

22 there, I weighed 46 kilograms.

23 Q. Did you receive enough food when you were at KP Dom? Were you

24 hungry whilst you were at KP Dom, on a consistent basis, or do you feel

25 you received enough food?

Page 1507

1 A. If I tell you that until the present day bread is the most

2 wonderful cake for me and that my eyes are hungry and that I have the

3 feeling that I'll die hungry for bread, this is not symbolical. This is

4 the truth. That's how much bread we had.

5 If I were to illustrate this further, it is sufficient if I say

6 that I -- let me start with myself -- went to relieve myself only 22 days

7 later that I could not pass a stool because there was nothing to get it

8 from for 22 days, and on the 22nd day, with the assistance of special

9 aspirins which create momentary pain in the stomach, a man is in pain and

10 then discharges the kind of droppings that a sheep has. There were some

11 who were constipated for 30 days, not passing a stool for 30 days.

12 Q. From what you heard or from what you could see from visitors that

13 may have come to the KP Dom, say from your wife, with the amount of food

14 that people were getting at the KP Dom, was that the same or was it

15 substantially less than what people were getting in the Foca town

16 generally?

17 A. Foca was a town that had a Muslim population as well. For some

18 time it was difficult, but sometimes there were some Serb Orthodox

19 neighbours who would help. It was very hard to help.

20 From the KP Dom we could not get any information as to what was

21 going on outside in terms of food, but in the beginning, if we look at the

22 organisation and if we look at the feelings of the Serb population, all of

23 a sudden this hatred was created. I can't understand how come there was

24 so much hatred. If a child had a Muslim name, people had the feeling that

25 such persons would even kill a child. That's the kind of hatred that

Page 1508

1 cropped up.

2 Q. If I can ask you the question directly. Were the people in the KP

3 Dom, the detainees, getting a lot less food than the rest of the

4 population in Foca, as far as you knew?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness already answered they did

8 not have sufficient information as to what was going on outside, and it is

9 a question who brought who food. The witness already said that they at

10 the KP Dom did not have sufficient information as to what was going on in

11 town in terms of food.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you are luckier than I am, Mr. Bakrac. I don't

13 see that particular interpretation in what the witness has said. I really

14 don't think he's answered the question that was asked of him at all.

15 I'm just looking through it again to see if I can interpret it the

16 way you have.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 82, line 23.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I have the passage you're relying on. He said, "From

19 the KP Dom we could not get any information as to what was going on

20 outside in terms of food." But what counsel for the Prosecution has asked

21 him was whether he had got any information from those who came to the

22 KP Dom, say from his wife, with the amount of food that people were

23 getting.

24 Now, I think that the Prosecution's entitled to get a clear

25 answer. I agree with you, but I think they're entitled to get a clear

Page 1509

1 answer. "Are you able to tell us what the people were getting outside the

2 KP Dom?" I think the answer will be no, he can't, but it's not clear,

3 anyway, from that very long answer. He has been asked a number of times

4 by Mr. Smith to answer the question. I realise he's having difficulty

5 with that. But I think the Prosecution's entitled to have an answer to

6 that question directly.

7 But, Mr. Smith, perhaps you would ask him specifically was he ever

8 told by his wife or by anybody else who came from the outside the amount

9 of food they were getting. Now, he can say yes or no to that; we'll know

10 where we are.


12 Q. Were you ever told by your wife or other visitors to the KP Dom

13 how much food they were getting relative to how much you were getting in

14 the KP Dom?

15 A. We did not. I did not have a chance. This could be the beginning

16 of May. Until then, the situation was very bad. It was either the 4th or

17 5th or 6th of May. One could have contact but with great difficulty, and

18 only if one had strong connections one could have contact with one's

19 wife. I had the opportunity of having such contact with my wife once.

20 And there was lots of control on the part of the police, the guards. He

21 came to see me once -- she came to see me once and she gave me two packs

22 of cigarettes and --

23 JUDGE HUNT: I think we've gone far enough. The answer clearly is

24 he's unable to tell us.

25 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1510

1 Q. I'd now like to ask you some questions about any beatings that you

2 may have seen or you may have heard or you may have been told by other

3 detainees that occurred at the KP Dom. I think you stated in your

4 evidence that whilst you were in KP Dom you were not beaten; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes. I was not beaten by anyone at the KP Dom.

7 Q. Now, I'd like you to answer these questions specifically. Did you

8 see any other detainees from the KP Dom injured as a result of the

9 beatings, as a result of any beatings that may have happened?

10 A. According to certain perceptions and certain things I saw with my

11 own eyes, there were several. Some were brought in and beaten very badly,

12 beaten up. Some were so beaten up that their bodies were deformed,

13 especially their faces. People who wanted to help them helped them in a

14 very simple way by using cold water and a towel.

15 Q. Now, I'll ask you in a moment about whether or not there was a

16 pattern of beatings that occurred in the KP Dom. But at the moment, I

17 would just like you to answer whether you saw any particular individuals

18 that you can name that had been injured as a result of a beating at the KP

19 Dom. Can you think about any particular individual that you saw with any

20 sort of injury? And we'll just go through each of those individuals one

21 by one.

22 A. I recall Nurko Nisic. Nurko Nisic was interrogated, interrogated

23 I don't know how many times. He made "statements." I know also very well

24 that I saw him once with his face all bloody; that was the first time.

25 Then I saw him again covered in blood, and that was after lunch, sometime

Page 1511

1 around 2.00 or 3.00. I did not speak to him, but through certain

2 individuals, we learnt, they said, "This is nothing that you see, what I

3 look like. If only you knew what they did to my testicles." And shortly

4 afterwards, he disappeared; he was taken away and never came back.

5 Q. Did you hear from --

6 A. I saw --

7 Q. Did you hear from the other inmates about who did this to him?

8 Did anyone tell you which particular individual injured him or beat him,

9 or not?

10 A. The signals that came, by and large, were about those who

11 interviewed them, and all the guards, all the guards had a part in the

12 beatings of the inmates. Perhaps two or three -- perhaps I could say that

13 two or three of them did not take part in this. But they say number 1.

14 Q. Are there any other detainees that you saw at the KP Dom injured,

15 that you personally saw?

16 A. I saw Munib Veiz with my own eyes. His back was not blue, it was

17 black. Black. When the blue colour goes into -- turns into black, then

18 you get gooseflesh all over. And people treated him with wet compresses,

19 cold compresses.

20 Q. Did he or someone else tell you who gave him those bruises?

21 A. He transmitted -- no. Well, as a matter of fact, it was known it

22 was the military police and Arkan's men and White Eagles, that is, the

23 military police from the town together with the White Eagles and Arkan's

24 men. And they were also lent a hand by some neighbours.

25 Q. Were there any other individuals that you saw injured at KP Dom,

Page 1512












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Page 1513

1 with your own eyes?

2 A. I saw some. I don't know their names. But, for instance, some

3 Kuloglija, he was a teacher. He came with blood all over his head, and he

4 was also taken away shortly and never returned.

5 And something which is a tragedy and a comedy alike, a tragedy for

6 the one who disappeared and a comedy for those who survived, two relatives

7 Mandzo, but they looked different, but those who were looking for him did

8 not identify them properly. So by mistake one came in straight at the

9 main gate, and a baseball bat was used -- a kind of a baseball bat which

10 was made out of a table leg. He was hit on the head. He fainted then and

11 then they proceeded to beating and battery, and he merely lost

12 consciousness.

13 Less than half an hour later, he was taken back by mistake,

14 because they were not looking for him but for a relative of his. And that

15 one was taken away later and did not come back. But this one survived, he

16 was fortunate enough to survive, and the other one was unfortunate not

17 to. And yet he was beaten very badly. He was quite a big man but he

18 looked small; he was all lost and crouching after all that beating.

19 Q. This Mandzo that you referred to that survived, did you see his

20 injuries?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What injuries were they?

23 A. On the head, and he had difficulties with walking. I did not see

24 who hit him where, but I could see blood on his head, and I saw how he

25 returned and was all bent, as if he was playing karate.

Page 1514

1 Q. Are there any other detainees that you actually saw injuries on as

2 a result of beatings?

3 A. I did. I did. Uzunovic, before the war, he was the president of

4 the youth and then joined the SDA, and as such was subjected to special

5 treatment. All those who were members, especially if they were board

6 members or something, they enjoyed the "priority" when it came to

7 treatment. And him I also saw with my own eyes through the window, all

8 covered in blood, and he was also taken away shortly.

9 Q. Do you know his first name?

10 A. Uzunovic. He was the president of the youth organisation sometime

11 in 1989/1990. That's enough. The Foca youth organisation. A young man.

12 Q. Anyone else that you witnessed injuries on that arose out of

13 beatings?

14 A. I saw Konjo. That was quite interesting. There were two Konjo

15 brothers, two brothers Konjo, and they belonged to a special Muslim party

16 called MBO. But I wondered why the Serbs disliked them so much if the MBO

17 leader cooperated and communicated with Milosevic, desirous of achieving a

18 peaceful solution in Yugoslavia, that is, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. Did you see one of those Konjo brothers with injuries on them?

20 A. Yes, the younger one. The elder one was ill; I don't know what he

21 suffered from but he was quite ill. And I saw the younger one. He was

22 tall, young, a nice young man. Oh, my God. Oh, the tragedy. They took

23 him away. But I saw him battered and he disappeared, he was taken away.

24 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom for that four and a half months,

25 about how many people do you know were beaten within that time?

Page 1515

1 A. Well, in the early days, there were no beatings; that is, only

2 those who were undisciplined were beaten and they were taken to solitary

3 confinement. However, subsequently, they began with a selection and they

4 began to take away people to beat them, to batter them. Some were brought

5 back again. But at all hours people would be taken out and away without

6 returning or some would be taken and brought back, mutilated, with their

7 faces badly hurt, and then again taken away and not brought back.

8 As a rule, we would understand something. If you were told to

9 take your affairs with you, then you stood a chance to survive, but that

10 was a mistake. Those who were not told to take anything with them, we

11 knew that they were being taken for beating, for murder, and for -- to be

12 thrown over the bridge into the river. And the uncertainty, the lack of

13 certitude was the worst disease.

14 Q. Do you know an individual at KP Dom during the time that you were

15 there called Avdo Mehmedspahic.

16 A. I did. Yes, I know him. I know him personally. He worked for

17 Velefarmacija, and he was brought one day. I say I did not see him right

18 then, but I heard that he was -- that he had been brought. But how had he

19 been brought. For a month, friends inside treated him with different

20 compresses, with water - what do I know - so he could stand on his own two

21 feet. Because one of the specialities of the Serb military police was to

22 beat people on the soles of their feet so that one couldn't run, one

23 couldn't flee, one couldn't walk. And for about a month, what little food

24 he was entitled to had to be brought to him because he was prostrate.

25 Q. Was he beaten inside the KP Dom?

Page 1516

1 A. He was brought in that bad shape, but he was also put in solitary

2 confinement. I don't know why.

3 Q. Do you know a Kresimir Martinovic?

4 A. Kresimir Martinovic. I knew him personally. He was a TV

5 repairman, and he had found a job in Zagreb, come back to fetch his wife,

6 and was captured by the Serb police especially because he knew Velibor

7 Ostojic. That is what he told us when he recovered a little. And his

8 bodyguards beat him so badly, so terribly that his facial traits were

9 completely changed. And people also tried to treat him with those cold

10 compresses, and he also disappeared after a short while.

11 Q. And do you also know a Nail Hodzic detained at KP Dom whilst you

12 were there?

13 A. Nail Hodzic used to work for the same company as I did for a while

14 and then moved over to Focatrans and drove a bus for that company. But at

15 the same time, according to some information that I learnt there -- I had

16 no previous knowledge about that -- that he used to be a treasurer for the

17 SDA.

18 He was also beaten, and yet only a few days later he was taken

19 away and never returned. After the beating he was taken away. Ten days

20 later he was taken away and never came back.

21 Q. Did you see any injuries from that beating or just heard about

22 it?

23 A. In Room 12 -- no, sorry. In Room 11. And it was the same

24 entrance, the same doorway, so that usually at mealtime we would go to

25 another building, and that was our only opportunity to communicate with --

Page 1517

1 to communicate with the guards. The guards would say, "Room 12 goes for a

2 meal with room such-and-such," and then, "Room such-and-such goes with

3 room such-and-such," because that was the best way they could control the

4 discipline and our conduct in the restaurant.

5 Q. So you didn't see his injuries. You heard about it through other

6 prisoners?

7 A. Heard, I heard it from him, because we knew one another quite

8 well.

9 Q. And Omer Mujezinovic, did you know him while you were at the

10 KP Dom? Omer Mujezinovic?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. And Habib Subasic?

13 A. Yes. Him I --

14 Q. Was he beaten whilst you were at KP Dom?

15 A. He came beaten. He was badly -- they beat him badly first and

16 then they brought him. But then, and why I don't know, he spent quite a

17 long time in solitary confinement. Excuse me. Because many of those who

18 were beaten lacked courage to say who had beaten them, who had done it to

19 them. In the camp, in the prison, don't ask -- don't ask from people too

20 much. Don't insist on people telling you who beat them.

21 Q. And Zulfo Veiz, did you know him whilst you were at the KP Dom?

22 A. I used to know him before that.

23 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, did you know whether he was

24 beaten?

25 A. He was beaten when he was brought there together with Munib Veiz

Page 1518

1 but less than Munib Veiz. And he was in the same department where I was,

2 that is, in Room 15, which had two wings. And he also frequently

3 communicated with some of the Serb police because whilst a civilian, he

4 also served as a policeman.

5 Sometime around the 20th or the 21st, but I'm positive more that

6 I'm telling you now it was the 2100 hours, and we were smoking some grass

7 or other, and he looked through the window - it was dark - and he said,

8 "Here they come to take me away," and that's how it was. He sensed that

9 he would be taken away, that he would be the one that they would take away

10 out of 30 of us.

11 Q. Which month was this? You said the 20th or the 21st.

12 A. The 1st of August.

13 Q. You say the 1st of August.

14 A. The 21st of August. The 20th or the 21st of August.

15 Q. And you were in the same room as him, and he said that he was

16 going to be taken out. This is Room 15? Is that correct?

17 A. It was the department of Room 15, and there was one big room with

18 some 30 beds and a smaller room with -- with 8 beds. And there was also a

19 third room, which was sort of an anteroom, with about 10 benches, and

20 there was also a small area in front of the lavatory.

21 Q. And you said, I think, at 9.00 he was taken out of your room. Is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is. At 9.00 in the evening, at 2100.

24 Q. And who was he taken out by?

25 A. I-- was it Obrenovic? And I really don't know them well.

Page 1519

1 Pljevaljcic, Obrenovic, Kali [phoen], Ivanovic and so on. I can't really

2 remember who it was. But I fled immediately from that anteroom in which

3 we were when they came after him, and he said, "Here they come to take me

4 away," and I went to my room so that I did not see who that was. But next

5 day they asked not me, others, they asked, "Where's Zulfo?" And the

6 answer was, "He's been sent to another camp."

7 Q. Since that day that he was taken out of that room, has he ever

8 been seen again, to your knowledge?

9 A. That same evening, ten minutes later, one could hear screams,

10 cries of pain, beating, blows, and we were unfortunate enough to be able

11 to see directly the room in which this was going on, this beating and

12 killing went on.

13 Q. Which room was this in, which building?

14 A. It was on the ground floor of the administrative building. If you

15 look from Room 15, straight ahead -- you see straight ahead where roughly

16 is that office with the darkened window panes.

17 Q. This beating and screaming, how long did that last for, how many

18 minutes?

19 A. From half an hour to an hour.

20 Q. After that beating and screaming had stopped, did you hear

21 anything else?

22 A. Well, it wasn't, but that was one of the last things. But the

23 things that I'll tell you now, they were about -- it happened three or

24 four times a week, usually when they would be taken away as of 6.00 and

25 then a beating would ensue, blows. And you can believe me when I say that

Page 1520

1 I took this sponge from the pillow to plug my ears and then put that

2 pillow over my head just so as not to die because of those screams,

3 because of those cries of pain, because of those sobs which resounded so

4 loudly through the night.

5 Q. Where were these beatings taking place? In the same place where

6 Zulfo Veiz was or in some other place?

7 A. All of the beatings took place on the ground floor of the

8 administrative building. Almost all of them. But from inmates, from the

9 detainees, I also heard that it also took place in special rooms which

10 were used during that Yugoslavia to beat people; that is, in those rooms,

11 there were also beatings. But what went on in this part, this part which

12 we could directly see from our dormitory, not even a man with a heart of

13 steel, I think, would be able to keep his sanity after hearing all those

14 screams.

15 Q. About how many weeks did this continue for, these beatings in this

16 building? You say about three or four times a week people were taken out

17 and beaten. For how many weeks did this occur?

18 A. Well, I should say about two months, close to two months. But not

19 every day. But it would happen twice a week, once a week, three times a

20 week, and it went on for about two months. It wasn't evenly distributed.

21 I suppose it depended on the selection of people who were to be killed.

22 Q. And which two-month period was this whilst you were there? Was it

23 your last two months, your first two, or the middle two?

24 A. That was roughly the end of July, end of August. I think that

25 is -- I think that Veiz was around the 20th, 21st of August.

Page 1521

1 Q. Are you 100 per cent sure about these dates?

2 A. Ninety per cent. After all this time, after all this time, I

3 cannot be 100 per cent sure. But my rough estimate is that it was late

4 June, late August, the 20th, 21st of August, and Veiz was the last one.

5 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I think that I have about 20 more minutes

6 and I think now might be a good time to finish.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. We will adjourn now until 9.30 in the

8 morning. If there are any matters to be dealt with that will take any

9 time, we should deal with them in the morning, that is, matters arising

10 out of the discussions this morning. If you've got anything resolved,

11 just let us know. Otherwise, we'll deal with them and get them out of the

12 way before we proceed with the witness.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of

15 January, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.