Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1522

1 Tuesday, 16 January 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case number IT-97-25-T, the

7 Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Who is it who wishes to raise something?

9 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution would like to --

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry, I haven't got

12 any interpretation.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Can you hear me now in a language which you

14 understand? You are not the accused. It's all right.

15 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, after discussion with the

17 Defence yesterday, we have several matters solved.

18 First of all, the Prosecution would like to tender into evidence

19 some documents related to Witness 33. These documents are actually in the

20 trial binder, but it has to be officially handed over. It is in the trial

21 binder, it is -- first of all, the transcript of this witness, in the

22 trial binder, it's ID 106. That's the transcript of Witness 33's

23 testimony.


25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: During the testimony, several documents were

Page 1523

1 discussed with this witness. First of all, there was a map the witness

2 produced, a map of Foca, and this is in the trial -- it is in the trial

3 binders. The document, let me just see, is 99, ID 99. And we have the

4 documents provided by the witness, the exit permits for herself and the

5 family. Those are the documents with the identification number ID 100 to

6 ID 104A.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. 100. What's the next one?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 100 to 104A, that is, 100 and 100A, 101,

9 101A, 102, 102A, 103, 103A, and 104, 104A. These were the exit permits.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Just let me get that right. There's 100, 101, 101A,

11 102, 103, 103A, 104, and 104A.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: There are also 100A and 102A. All these

13 documents, 100 to 104, have also a translation which is A.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Right.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Those documents go in under seal, as well as

16 the map because the map also shows the name of the witness.

17 The last exhibit that came in was the witness statement, the

18 previous witness statement to the Prosecutor's Office. That was tendered

19 also under seal from the Defence. It is document ID 96.

20 We would like to enter these documents now.

21 JUDGE HUNT: No objection, Mr. Bakrac?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, those documents will be Exhibit

24 P106 --

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour.

Page 1524


2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm so sorry. I just have to be

3 sure. Document 96 is a statement given to the Prosecution or, rather, the

4 investigators of the OTP in relation to this witness; right?


6 JUDGE HUNT: And it was tendered into evidence in the other

7 trial.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: By the Defence counsel, actually, and it's

9 discussed in the transcript at various points.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Then there are no objections

11 whatsoever.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I just want to mention that in the testimony

14 of this witness, several videos were shown. We did not enter them here

15 because the videos were actually discussed intensely during the testimony,

16 and the contents of the video are to be seen from the testimony itself.

17 So it's just not necessary to do that.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Those will be Exhibits P106, and then the

19 following ones are under seal: P99, 100, 100A, 101, 101A, 102, 102A, 103,

20 103A, 104, 104A, and 96.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 We have also discussed the matter of summoning of this one

23 witness, and the Defence and the Prosecution agree that the witness should

24 be summoned like it is requested but not for the 26th of February but at

25 an earlier stage, that is, the 13th of February.

Page 1525

1 JUDGE HUNT: So the summons is issued by consent. Can you provide

2 us with a document to sign?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, we can do that. Yes. I don't have it

4 now.

5 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, but if you have it during the morning, then

6 it could be signed.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. We'll do so.

8 We have also reached an agreement on the Witness 96, but we will

9 come back to this at a later stage. We will have to strike some of the

10 parts of it and we have to agree on this first.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Very well then.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I wonder if the motion of the Defence should

13 be discussed now with the request for examination.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid that I have not yet received any document

15 identifying the precise issue. It may be lost in the Registry's

16 interstices, but they certainly have not been supplied to the Trial

17 Chamber yet. So I think we better wait until we see that.

18 Anything else before we bring the witness back in?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Anything else, Mr. Bakrac?

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Let's have the witness, please.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 WITNESS: FWS-86 [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 1526

1 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, Witness.

2 Yes, Mr. Smith.

3 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours.

4 Examined by Mr. Smith: [Continued]

5 Q. Good morning, Witness. Witness, I just have a few more questions

6 to ask you this morning, and as we discussed yesterday, if it -- it would

7 be appreciated if you could specifically listen carefully to the question

8 and specifically answer the question, and if any extra further information

9 is required another question will follow, but listen very specifically to

10 the question that's asked. Do you understand?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Yesterday you gave some evidence that Zulfo Veiz was taken out of

13 your room at about 9.00 and taken down to the administration building, and

14 then you heard some beatings and some screaming coming from that building

15 about ten minutes after he was taken out. You said that the beatings and

16 the screamings lasted for about half an hour to an hour. Then I asked

17 you, "Did you hear anything else after this beating or screaming?" And

18 you said that was one of the last things that happened.

19 Following the screaming and the beatings, did you hear anything

20 else that was connected to this particular incident?

21 A. I heard that very late in the night, between 11.00 and 12.00 at

22 night. I mean, between 2300 and 2400 hours. I heard the squeaking of

23 brakes or, rather, wheels, and bursts of gunfire from weapons.

24 Approximately about ten minutes later a loud sound was heard, the thump of

25 something falling into the Drina. This could be heard well because it was

Page 1527

1 about 200 metres away as the crow flies, and the silence was such we say

2 that it was as silent as in a cemetery or in the grave.

3 I had the impression that I could see all of this although I could

4 not see it. I could hear and feel that this could have been his end. I'm

5 referring to Zulfo Veiz.

6 Q. And how many bursts of gunfire did you hear?

7 A. Well, usually these were intermittent shots, two or three,

8 depending on how many persons there were for that night.

9 Q. After this night, after Zulfo Veiz was taken out, have you ever

10 seen him again?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Have you ever heard of him being alive since that night?

13 A. No. But people who were with me in the camp from that room asked

14 one of the guards, "What's up with Zulfo?" The guard said, "He's been

15 transferred to another camp."

16 Q. You also mentioned that this type of incident that occurred to

17 Zulfo Veiz occurred to a number of other detainees who were taken out over

18 a one- to two-month period from the dormitory and taken to the

19 administration building. You said that some people were taken three or

20 four times a week and sometimes it was just once a week, and you said you

21 had to place a pillow over your ears to block out the screams. Is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes, correct. Within about two months' time, what happened to

24 Zulfo Veiz happened to many others, whether it's 40, 50, 60, whatever.

25 But these people were usually taken before night would fall, at 6.00,

Page 1528

1 7.00, or 8.00, and after that, such terrible screams and moans could be

2 heard from that direction that I would take a sponge instead of cotton

3 wool to put into my ears. And even that couldn't keep the sound out. I

4 even had to put my pillow over my head so that this would not reach my

5 ears and so that I would not be so ill because of all those screams.

6 Q. Now, you mentioned, after Zulfo Veiz was taken to the

7 administration building, that there was gunfire and then the thump of his

8 body into the -- the thump of what appeared to be a body into the river.

9 Did gunfire occur after other beatings that you've just referred to, or

10 was it just in relation to Zulfo Veiz?

11 A. The same happened to the others who were taken out for beatings

12 and the same procedure was involved, approximately the same; the squeaking

13 of brakes or, rather, wheels, then a very short trip. And in a relatively

14 short period of time, it depended on how many people had to be finished

15 off, there were intermittent bursts of gunfire that lasted longer, in

16 relation to Zulfo, that is. On the assumption that this night between the

17 20st and 21st of August, as far as I can remember, Zulfo was taken away in

18 the evening, and four, five, six times, a loud splash could be heard, loud

19 splashes of something falling into the water.

20 Q. About how many people were taken to the administration building

21 over this period that you've just mentioned and appeared to be beaten in

22 this way? Can you give an approximate number?

23 A. Well, that lasted for about two months. As far as that period is

24 concerned, I haven't got any precise records, but 40, 50, or even 60

25 people finished in that way.

Page 1529












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Page 1530

1 Q. When you say "finished in that way," you've stated that 40 or 50

2 or 60 people were beaten in that way. How many of those people came back

3 into the KP Dom after those beatings?

4 A. No one did.

5 Q. Do you know who generally was committing these beatings? Who was

6 doing -- who was committing these assaults in the administration centre?

7 A. I don't know. But according to information previously received,

8 it was the military police that contributed to this the most.

9 Q. These particular people that were taken out and beaten in the

10 administration building, were they selected for any particular reason over

11 and above other detainees?

12 A. Well, for the most part, to the best of our knowledge, "special

13 treatment" was accorded to members of the SDA, persons who worked in the

14 municipal authorities, persons who had worked in the police before, as

15 well as persons who were organised in some kind of SDA logistics. At

16 least that's what people said.

17 Q. How well known amongst the prisoners, amongst the detainees, was

18 this practice of beating and subsequent hearing of shots?

19 A. Well, everybody heard it. Part of the detainees would see them

20 leave but no one would see these men return. Ninety-nine per cent of all

21 detainees could hear these screams.

22 Q. This practice of people being taken out and beaten and never being

23 seen again, what effect did that have on you whilst you were in prison?

24 A. Very hard. I don't know what the right term for this would be,

25 but it was horror.

Page 1531

1 Q. Other than these people that you mentioned were taken into the

2 administration building and beaten, were there other detainees that

3 appeared to have disappeared from the KP Dom whilst you were there?

4 A. Yes. That was, as they say, "legal," under quotation marks.

5 Certain groups would go to pick plums or to do other things in groups of

6 10 or 15, which later did not return at all, nor did we receive any

7 information as to what had happened with them. But only later it turned

8 out that they were out on a road of no return.

9 Q. Other than the detainees that you've mentioned that were beaten in

10 the administration centre, how many -- can you put a number as to the

11 amount of detainees that were at the KP Dom whilst you were there and were

12 never seen again afterwards? If you're unable to say, just say so.

13 A. According to our records -- records were kept every day because we

14 went in the direction of the restaurant for about 100 metres, and I said

15 in my statement that sometimes one or two groups would be brought together

16 as they went out. We knew every day how many people there were within the

17 camp. We also knew how many people were in solitary confinement.

18 In my assessment, between 700 and 800 people had passed through

19 the camp.

20 Q. In the time that you were there, did you have any assessment as to

21 how many people were missing after being in the camp? Only from the time

22 that you were there.

23 A. In that period about 100 persons disappeared. Perhaps 110 or 115

24 even, but around 100.

25 Q. And does this include the people that were beaten in the

Page 1532

1 administration building in the evening or is that number on top of that?

2 A. No. That is the total number.

3 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I just ask that the witness be given

4 P55. Not to go through it in any detail but just --

5 JUDGE HUNT: Schedule C.

6 MR. SMITH: Schedule C. It's just to clarify one name that was

7 there yesterday.

8 Q. Witness, I just ask that you look at the piece of paper in front

9 of you and look at number C17. The person's name is Krunoslav Marinovic.

10 A. Number 17.

11 Q. Did you know that person at the KP Dom?

12 A. I knew him from before. He had a workshop of his own, a repair

13 shop for radio and TV sets, but I saw him at the KP Dom on the 19th and

14 20th. His face was totally distorted.

15 Q. The 19th and 20th of which month?

16 A. April. April 1992.

17 Q. And we discussed this person yesterday; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. SMITH: Just for the record, Your Honour, the person was

20 discussed as Kresimir Martinovic, which appears to be probably a

21 pronunciation problem on my part.

22 A. Yes. Yes.


24 Q. This person, he received injuries to his face. Did he receive

25 them in the KP Dom or before he arrived there?

Page 1533

1 A. He came back with these injuries.

2 Q. He came to the KP Dom with those injuries?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And did you know what happened to him after you saw him on the

5 19th or 20th of April?

6 A. He said to the people around him -- I mean, I personally did not

7 ask him, but it was Ostojic's escorts who had beaten him so badly that

8 they had trouble bringing him to the KP Dom. They mutilated his face. He

9 was treated with cold compresses only.

10 Q. Now, I'd just like to ask you just a couple of questions about

11 your attempted exchange whilst you were at the KP Dom and then your final

12 exchange when you left.

13 I think it was on the 17th of June, 1992, about 12 to 15 prisoners

14 from KP Dom were taken to or near to Cajnice.

15 A. True.

16 Q. Is that date correct or could --

17 A. Well, in mid-July. I don't really remember whether it was the

18 17th or the 18th, but it was the middle of July 1992.

19 Q. And you were taken there with a van full of women and some

20 children and some elderly males; is that correct?

21 A. No. We were taken. There were six from Gorazde and there were

22 about ten of us from Foca, so about 12 to 16 altogether. We rode in a

23 lorry, and children, two old men of about 80, and two or three women of

24 about the same age came there, and there was also a rather young nurse

25 there and about ten children between the ages of three and six or seven.

Page 1534

1 Q. These children, the two or three women and the two old men, where

2 did they come from?

3 A. The second night -- the first night we spent in a school at

4 Miljevina, and the second night, after the failed exchange, we were

5 transferred to the school at Luke. That night we were lying on benches on

6 the upper floor, we were all together there, and I learned from that nurse

7 that they had been transferred from an auxiliary camp called Partizan and

8 brought there for exchange.

9 Q. Did that nurse tell you how they were treated at the Partizan

10 camp?

11 A. Yes. It was a story that I simply could not believe because it

12 defied imagination. Soldiers would go there from time to time, take those

13 women away and do most despicable things to them. The most despicable

14 things are those which are physical, without any emotions, and which end

15 in a lifelong trauma for those women.

16 Q. Are you talking about rapes?

17 A. Quite so.

18 Q. Now, this exchange failed and you were taken back to the KP Dom,

19 and the women and children were taken back to Partizan; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, indeed.

21 Q. Who notified you that you were going to be exchanged on that

22 occasion? Was it guards, was it soldiers, or was it someone else? When

23 you were first taken out of the KP Dom.

24 A. A group had arrived from, I guess, the military part of Cajnice,

25 and they tried to use us to retrieve their own men who were in prisons or

Page 1535

1 perhaps in an area, to have them exchanged for those of us who were in the

2 Gorazde territory. The one who was in charge of that organisation - I

3 don't know him; I never knew him - he told us that he used to be a school

4 teacher in Cajnice.

5 Q. Were you taken from your room at the KP Dom by guards and then

6 delivered to soldiers at the front of the KP Dom, or did soldiers come to

7 your room? Who escorted you out through the KP Dom on your way for this

8 attempted exchange?

9 A. Our guards first searched us in two places to see if we were

10 carrying something and they searched us very thoroughly, from head to

11 feet, so that we could not really take over anything of any suspicious

12 nature, even in a written form, let alone an object. We were turned over

13 to men from Cajnice in the building itself, and then they told us to begin

14 boarding a lorry. There was also some Vojvoda from Cajnice who

15 immediately started to threaten us.

16 Q. Then if we can move to the 29th of August. I think about 55

17 detainees from the KP Dom, including yourself, were taken towards Niksic;

18 is that correct?

19 A. It is. In the morning of the 28th, the guard Obrenovic came to

20 the door and had a list with him, and I was one of those on the list so I

21 was called out last. We were both happy and unhappy. But we heard from

22 him something that we did not believe right away, because he told us we

23 were going to the free territory of Yugoslavia. We did not know because

24 some men were picked out from every dormitory. This selection usually

25 meant either youth or very advanced-aged men with some health complaints.

Page 1536

1 On the 28th of August, that is, that same day, we were transferred

2 to a room and there we waited for about ten hours for a bus which did not

3 turn up. We were then taken back to Room 12.

4 Q. Were you told that you were going to be exchanged or released?

5 A. We were told that we would be released.

6 Q. Were you given a choice as to where you were going to be released?

7 A. No.

8 Q. The following day, the 55 of you headed off in the bus. On that

9 journey, did you come across a Pero Elez?

10 A. That day, when we started off in a bus, we waited a long time in

11 front of various institutions which were to give us a green light, that

12 is, issue us different papers allowing us to move on. So after several

13 such stops, we set off, after some harassment on the border with

14 Montenegro. Along the way, we were also harassed up to a certain point by

15 the army of Republika Srpska; not those escorting us but those who stopped

16 us. We were all merry to have passed through all that, and arrived some 5

17 or 6 kilometres from Niksic. Niksic is in Montenegro.

18 In Montenegro, the driver automatically stopped and said, "We have

19 to go back." What happened? Pero Elez, whom they called Vojvoda, turned

20 us all back to the KP Dom.

21 Q. What function did Pero Elez have at the KP Dom? Was he involved

22 in the KP Dom at all? Was he in the army? Do you know what role he had

23 at this time?

24 A. Well, he was one of the important Vojvoda in the territory of

25 Miljevina, and as such, I suppose he wielded a lot of influence, had an

Page 1537












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Page 1538

1 important say with the Crisis Staff and other officials. He and another

2 one turned the bus back, and you can well imagine what authority he

3 enjoyed.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, we've heard an awful lot about Pero Elez

5 in various cases, but I've never heard that phrase "Vojvoda" before.

6 Could we get some understanding what it is.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, excuse me. Before we

8 move on, the witness said, "Can you imagine what kind of military

9 authority he had," and it is not in the transcript. I think it is very

10 important. I know that it will be checked the next day, but it is rather

11 important, so I wanted to make a point of that now.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. But can we find out what that phrase

13 means, what that word means, please?


15 Q. You said that Pero Elez was an important Vojvoda in the territory

16 of Miljevina. What do you mean by the term "Vojvoda"?

17 A. "Vojvoda" is a title which dates back to old times, to the

18 historical times in the history of the warfare of these people. A person

19 with this title, I cannot say exactly what rank, that means in military

20 terms, but it is a military rank, and it ensures -- it vests that person

21 with authority in a particular setting.

22 May I add? In that place in Serbia where I was finally fetched up

23 from the International Red Cross and Crescent, I received something

24 similar. Pero Elez, Vojvoda of Miljevina, took a freight, that is a

25 passenger, that is, a car from the International Red Cross, and all the

Page 1539

1 documentation, including the record of us all, towards the end of April

2 and the beginning of May.

3 Q. So Pero Elez was in the Bosnian Serb military in the Foca area at

4 that time; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, you said the driver said that the bus had to go back to the

7 KP Dom. Was the driver from the KP Dom or was he a soldier from --

8 A. He wore civilian clothes and was very decent. No sooner had we

9 crossed the border when he addressed us warmly, "Well, you need not be

10 afraid any more. We are in a different republic." But that proved to be

11 a mistake. He used to work earlier for a shipping company as a bus

12 driver.

13 Q. Pero Elez caused for the bus to go back to the KP Dom; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Did you hear why he caused the bus to go back to the KP Dom?

17 A. No, because we did not communicate with them, with him. He

18 ordered the driver to turn the bus back and that is how it happened.

19 Q. And the bus arrived back at the KP Dom, and were 20 people from

20 that bus segregated from the 55?

21 A. We were turned back, and we were offered then, because we had not

22 eaten, to eat something. So we went to the restaurant and returned from

23 the restaurant all together to Room 11. Half an hour later, a guard came

24 and he had a list with him, and he called out -- he started calling out

25 and called about 20 men. I was not among them. I thought that those that

Page 1540

1 he was calling out perhaps had some advantage. So I ran up to them and

2 the guard says, "What do you want? What are you waiting here?" And I

3 said, "Well, am I not there?" And he said, "Just beat it."

4 Q. And what happened to these 20 men? Where did they go?

5 A. After that, some 20 minutes perhaps, half an hour later, the same

6 guard came and told us to get ready quickly. We did get ready quickly and

7 then the same procedure started all over again. And again the same

8 procedure through one gate, through another gate, search, no particular

9 problems, and we boarded the same bus once again.

10 It just happened so that I turned to the right across the River

11 Drina and I saw a bus full of people. Assumption, my assumption, is that

12 those people had either taken the old road towards Miljevina or the road

13 to Gorazde, that is, Ustikolina.

14 Q. And which people are you referring to? Are you referring to the

15 20 that were selected whilst you were in the KP Dom?

16 A. Yes. Yes, I am referring to them. I had an intuition that it

17 could only be they, even though I could not, of course, recognise them at

18 that distance. But there was some intuition that those men could have

19 been them.

20 Q. Did you see those 20 in fact being taken out of the KP Dom or

21 not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it --

24 A. I mean, they were taken from the room. I saw them go through this

25 second door which leads into the main lobby of the administrative

Page 1541

1 building, and after that we lost them from sight, which means they had

2 left the facility. I could see them go through the door which is used

3 under normal conditions.

4 Q. Do you know the names of any of these individuals that were in

5 this group of 20?

6 A. Well, I was particularly close to, and on the 28th I spent most of

7 my time with him while we waited in the bus for those eight hours, and we

8 talked if we left whom to communicate, how to find people, because one

9 doesn't really think very much if he gets out to the free territory whom

10 to find and how. So it was Ismet Pasovic who was particularly close to

11 me. At that time, he was close to 70.

12 Q. Was he in that group of 20 that was selected?

13 A. Yes, he was.

14 Q. Do you know the names of any other individuals that were in that

15 group of 20 that were selected by the guard?

16 A. Well, I did sort of register it somewhere. But, I mean, there was

17 a Granov who used to be a social worker and worked for the same company as

18 I did. There were some from Gorazde. A man who -- there was Esad

19 Nezbur. There was that other one from Gorazde who hoped that his wife

20 might be able to get him out of there because she had some rather good

21 connections.

22 Q. Do you know what happened to these 20 individuals that were taken

23 out?

24 A. Well, later one learnt, naturally, that a man cannot sleep easily

25 unless he pursues truth. But to come by such information, to learn what

Page 1542

1 happened to whom, that is very difficult, very difficult. But at the same

2 time, after all this time, I committed myself to it, both wishing to help

3 those who had remained behind me. So I tried to do what I could. I could

4 not come by any information about what happened to them. They are simply

5 not among the living anymore - that is something that I know for certain -

6 because to this day I have not received any indication that they are still

7 alive.

8 Q. Now, you've stated to the Court that you were detained at the KP

9 Dom for four and a half months, and you've stated to the Court what you

10 saw there and how you were treated. How has that affected you today

11 psychologically?

12 A. Like many others, I experienced some hard moments after I came out

13 because freedom was highly hazardous wherever. I received treatment in a

14 number of hospitals. I also went to different institutions, from physical

15 therapists to psychologists, and I was also received in different health

16 institutions so as to allay, as much as I could, the trauma that I still

17 feel. I'm still under medical observation by specialists in psychology

18 and other institutions which want to help me.

19 As time goes by, it becomes ever harder because one does not see

20 any chance for one's personal future or the future of one's family, and

21 that leaves a very deep mark on my soul. I see no future and no money, no

22 money, no property which could, as we say it in Bosnia, "rahatluk," give

23 us peace which we enjoyed before the war broke out. Everybody was looked

24 after; everybody had his plans and thought about his future.

25 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you, Witness. I have

Page 1543

1 no further questions.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Cross-examination?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

5 Q. I wish you good morning, Witness. My name is Mihajlo Bakrac, and

6 I'm one of the defenders of the accused Milorad Krnojelac. Good morning.

7 A. Thank you.

8 Q. Is it true, Witness, that you told the investigators of the

9 Prosecution, on the 13th and 14th of November, 1995 and on the 27th and

10 29th of May and the 4th of June, 1999, your statements?

11 A. Yes, it is correct, if I remember the dates correctly.

12 Q. Did you make those statements of your own free will, and did you

13 sign them?

14 A. I did, yes.

15 Q. Is it correct that in your statement of the 27th and 29th of May

16 and the 4th of June, 1999, on page 5, passage 7, you stated the following,

17 verbatim:

18 "Krnojelac was de jure the commander/warden of the KP Dom, but

19 the power de facto was in the hands of Todovic, Rasevic, and the military

20 police."

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, Mr. Bakrac.

23 Witness, when you are answering a question asked of you by

24 Mr. Bakrac, you must realise that because you are both speaking in the

25 same language, the translator has a little bit of trouble keeping up with

Page 1544

1 you. So would you please pause before you answer to enable the

2 translators to catch up with the end of the sentence. Just a short pause

3 and then they will be able to pick up the whole of your answer. So far

4 they have been very short answers; but if you give a longer one, it may be

5 difficult to keep up with you if you go on straight away.

6 THE WITNESS: [In English] Okay.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So what you said in your statement to the Prosecutor, that is, to

9 the Prosecutor's investigators, and which we have just read, is quite

10 true.

11 A. [Interpretation] It is, yes.

12 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in one of those statements you also

13 said that on the 3rd of May, 1992, a delegation of the International Red

14 Cross, which included two Swiss citizens, registered you as a prisoner in

15 the KP Dom?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So I pronounced the date, the 3rd of May, 1992, ten days or so

18 after your detention.

19 A. Well, I cannot really be sure if it was the 3rd of May. But as

20 far as I can remember, that was the very end of April and the beginning of

21 May. But to the best of my recollection, it could be -- I don't know if

22 it is important, but it could have been on the 30th of April or perhaps on

23 the 1st. It was then that those people from the International Red Cross

24 came with two girls who were interpreters.

25 Q. So we can agree that it was about ten days or so after your

Page 1545












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Page 1546

1 detention.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it also correct that in one of your statements you said that on

4 the day when you last talked to Milorad Krnojelac, at the end of that

5 conversation, Savo Todovic said to you that you should go and give a

6 statement to the press?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Oh, it is correct?

9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. So it is correct that it is not the accused Krnojelac who directed

11 you to do so but that it was Savo Todovic who told you to go and speak to

12 the press, give a statement to the press?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Witness, please be so kind as to tell me the following: You said

15 here before the Tribunal that you had four contacts with Mr. Krnojelac.

16 Can you remember whether these are the last -- the only moments when you

17 saw Mr. Krnojelac at the KP Dom?

18 A. No, these are not the only moments. Like all the others, I saw

19 him through the window, I saw him passing by through the yard, because

20 that was the only way to go from the exit to the furniture factory or,

21 rather, the restaurant and also to the area where the cooking was done.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness. Tell me, please, is it correct that you said

23 to the investigators of the OTP that you saw Mr. Krnojelac during regular

24 working hours, until about 4.00 in the afternoon?

25 A. Well, to the best of my recollection, I think that Krnojelac was

Page 1547

1 there, for the most part, during working hours.

2 Q. When you say "during working hours," what period is this?

3 A. Well, I don't know whether it's four or three or five, but that

4 was what their working hours were, and the guard shift was around 6.00.

5 Q. You spoke about the main leaders of the Serb Democratic Party.

6 Can you tell me who the main leaders for the SDA in Foca were?

7 A. Well, I could say that in 1991 a certain differentiation had

8 already started in terms of the presentation of candidates on the part of

9 parties. I think Taib Lojo was appointed president of the municipality by

10 the SDA. I think they held certain functions, certain posts in that

11 sense.

12 In 1991 or perhaps even earlier - I wasn't very well-versed, to

13 tell you the truth - they divided certain posts, certain offices, the SDA

14 and the SDS did, but I know that in Foca, Sahinpasic, nicknamed Saja, was

15 in charge of Republican activity and he was a Republican MP. As for the

16 others, quite frankly, I had work to do, to tell you the truth, so I was

17 not very much involved in who was doing what and how.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness. It's a bit strange to me. You are very

19 well-versed in the leaders of the SDS, and when I speak about the leaders

20 of the SDA, you were very busy, you were not interested. How come that's

21 possible for you to know so little about the leaders of the SDA?

22 A. As a citizen, I was 100 per cent neutral. I did not belong to any

23 party. I -- I mean, at that time it was relatively normal to belong to

24 the League of Communists. At that time, sometime in 1989, I stopped being

25 a member of that organisation, and from then onwards, I did not belong to

Page 1548

1 any political party.

2 For those reasons, I can say who the members were, but quite

3 frankly speaking, I cannot say whether such-and-such a person was a member

4 of the SDA and what post he held. However, I can say who held which

5 office. Reuf Tafra was director of the regional medical centre. Whether

6 he belonged to the SDA or whether it was the SDA that appointed him to

7 that position, I cannot go into that at all, for example.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness. Please be so kind as to say whether you know

9 who was commander of the Territorial Defence just before the conflict

10 broke out in Foca and what was his ethnic background?

11 A. As far as I can remember, it should have been Sulejman Pilav.

12 Q. What is he ethnically?

13 A. He's a Muslim, a Bosniak.

14 Q. Thank you. You mentioned Mr. Sahinpasic, nicknamed Saja.

15 Yesterday you said that Serbs were arming themselves but Muslims were

16 too. Do you know that Sahinpasic stated in parliament and the newspapers

17 that already in 1991 and 1992 he was arming Muslims in Foca?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know at all of him doing that? Are you familiar with

20 that?

21 A. It was only when I came to a certain country, republic of the

22 former Yugoslavia, that I found out about the activities of that man. It

23 was very negative in terms of persons of Muslim ethnicity.

24 This man you mentioned, Saja, it is true that he was a MP, but I

25 did not know anything about the arming of the Muslim part of the

Page 1549

1 population.

2 Q. Thank you. You mentioned in your statement yesterday that you

3 were present at the SDS rally which was held at the stadium in Foca, if

4 I'm not mistaken.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it correct that before this rally, a rally of the Party of

7 Democratic Action was held in Foca.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You said that on the stage, when we are talking about the rally of

10 the Serb Democratic Party at the stadium, you saw the main people from the

11 SDS at republican level. Can you tell us who was on the stage together

12 with them from Foca?

13 A. Originally from Foca it was Ostojic, Maksimovic, as far as I can

14 remember. My visual memory is relatively good, so I go through this

15 reconstruction quite a different way. Then there was Stanic. There was

16 someone else too, but that -- that image comes back to me from the second

17 row. I cannot reconstruct that part of the image. Cancar. Yes, Petko

18 Cancar.

19 Q. Thank you, Witness. Yesterday, you said when you came to the

20 KP Dom -- you said that when you came to the KP Dom that a person

21 nicknamed Cakani registered your name in the logbook there and that you

22 cannot remember his last name. Would you agree if I said that that

23 person's last name is Dobnik and that he is an ethnic Croat?

24 A. I know that -- I mean, I'm sure that he was Nedjo Klaric's brother

25 or son-in-law, brother-in-law or son-in-law, but I would not have known

Page 1550

1 that he was of Catholic ethnicity. I know that he worked there as a

2 corrections officer, but, quite frankly, I never gave much thought to his

3 last name. But I know 100 per cent that he was Nedjo Klaric's son-in-law

4 or brother-in-law.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note the word is ambiguous in the

6 original, whether it's "son-in-law" or "brother-in-law."

7 JUDGE HUNT: You may not have heard what the interpreters said

8 there. There is an ambiguity in the word which the witness is using as to

9 whether it means his brother-in-law or his son-in-law. You may or may not

10 want to follow that up.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.

12 Q. When you used this word "zet," is that the man's sister's husband

13 or the man's daughter's husband? You heard what was said by the

14 Honourable Judge.

15 A. In our jargon, it means that he got married to Nedjo Klaric's

16 daughter.

17 JUDGE HUNT: So it's son-in-law. Thank you.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. I'm just reading from the list of staff members from the KP Dom,

20 and I'm asking you whether you would agree that the person nicknamed

21 Cakani is that person, that is, Aleksandar Dobnik, father's name, Rudolf,

22 born in 1944. He worked in security.

23 A. I cannot say for sure whether that's his name and surname

24 officially, but I know 100 per cent sure that his nickname was Cakani. He

25 had great respect for me. That day, when he registered all my details, he

Page 1551

1 offered me a cigarette and he also gave me a pack of cigarettes without

2 the filter. The brand is Niska Morava.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness. When speaking of medical care, you said that

4 at first, once a week, and later, once in 15 or 20 days,

5 doctors/physicians came from the medical centre of Foca. Is it correct

6 that in the KP Dom, Gojko Jokanovic, a male nurse, was there every day,

7 and isn't that what you said in your statements to the OTP?

8 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I stated that, but I'm sorry that I did not

9 state - I remembered this later - that instead of a doctor, instead of a

10 general practitioner or an occupational medicine specialist, we had a

11 gynaecologist coming in to see us. I'm not saying this was every day, but

12 almost every day, in the KP Dom building, Gojko Jokanovic was there. He

13 retired as a medical technician, as a male nurse, from the KP Dom, and he

14 was reactivated when the concentration camp was set up in Foca.

15 Q. Is it also correct that a dentist, Boban Kostovic, was also at the

16 KP Dom?

17 A. That's correct, once or twice during my period. Let me add one

18 more thing. He did not have any chance of intervening in any way, not

19 extracting a tooth either, because these premises were devastated. He

20 only gave Aspirin.

21 Q. Is that what you know about this or is that what you say was the

22 case for sure?

23 A. I assert that that is the way it was, 100 per cent sure.

24 Q. Speaking of medical care, do you know that someone in your room

25 received an infusion?

Page 1552

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. But semilegally.

4 Q. Yesterday you said that you were present when there was a clash

5 between Mr. Krnojelac and the commander of the Uzice Corps, let's call it

6 that; when Krnojelac, in your opinion, phoned the Crisis Staff and, in

7 your opinion, talked to Stanic.

8 Do you allow for the possibility that, on that occasion,

9 Mr. Krnojelac talked to Mr. Radojica Mladzenovic, President of the

10 Executive Council?

11 A. I cannot assert what the name was and I cannot say whether this

12 was the commander or the commanding officer. But I know that he had some

13 kind of high authority, order-issuing authority over Krnojelac, the one

14 who insisted that he, Krnojelac, use that number to make a phone call.

15 According to my visual memory, that's the way I recorded it. Now,

16 how accurate this was, I don't know. I remember the number as being

17 570041. Perhaps it's my tragedy that I have this visual memory. Although

18 this time distance is so long, I tried to record this earlier. I think

19 that the name could be Stanic, because he was President of the SDS.

20 Stanic could also be President of the Crisis Staff. So I'm not claiming

21 what the name was exactly, but I do claim that it could be the Crisis

22 Staff.

23 Q. Yesterday you spoke of a cafe that was in the family home of

24 Mr. Krnojelac. Did you ever go there? Did you ever spend any time in

25 that cafe?

Page 1553












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Page 1554

1 A. When his son designed the interior - he did so himself, his son

2 did - he put in some kind of decorative objects. I dropped in then, and

3 if I'm not mistaken, I was invited for a drink one more time as a

4 neighbour, of course. I must tell you that I was pleased that such a man

5 did quite a few things like that by himself. I was even surprised.

6 But let me tell you quite frankly, in terms of my job, the job I

7 had, I was supposed to communicate with quite a few persons from the

8 business community, so I was kind of fed up with restaurants and cafes.

9 This is an unwritten rule, that business people go out to eat and drink

10 together after business meetings. I never went to restaurants and cafes

11 except on exceptional occasions. I was not interested in that, regardless

12 of who the owner was.

13 Q. So when you say that nationalist, chauvinist songs were sung in

14 that cafe, you had never actually entered it.

15 A. I did not listen to it, but I heard from neighbours in that street

16 that, late into the night, songs were sung of a nationalist content.

17 Q. Witness, do you know that right next to that cafe, about 30 metres

18 away, there is a cafe with a live band owned by Grujicic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that these nationalist songs were

21 heard precisely from that locality?

22 A. Well, I said a few minutes ago, I was not the one who listened to

23 these songs. So if the neighbours say that that's the way it was, my ad

24 hoc reaction was to accept that, which is not to say that something like

25 that did not happen in the next-door cafe, the Grujicic family place.

Page 1555

1 Q. Since you did not come to the cafe that was held by

2 Mr. Krnojelac's son, do you allow for the possibility, or were you told by

3 the neighbours that, just before the conflict broke out, persons of Muslim

4 ethnicity also came to that cafe?

5 A. Well, I should not be telling you all of this because I assume

6 that you were one of the persons surrounded by various members of the

7 population and various friends. It would be illogical for me to say that

8 they did not come. They did come.

9 Before the conflict broke out, all ethnic groups socialised,

10 especially young men. It would be an idiocy, undoubtedly, to deny that,

11 that they did not come to see each other.

12 Q. Thank you, Witness. When we are talking about ethnicity, do you

13 know what is the ethnicity of Mr. Krnojelac's wife, the mother of his

14 sons?

15 A. I'm not saying I'm right, but as far as I can remember, his wife

16 is a good mother, a good worker, and I think that she is from a Catholic

17 family, as far as I know.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Perhaps this would be a good point to

20 take a break. I have a few more questions. I'm not going to be very long

21 but ...

22 JUDGE HUNT: Certainly. Thank you very much.

23 We'll adjourn now until 11.30.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

Page 1556

1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

2 MR. SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour. If I could just have a brief

3 word. During the break, the interpreter advised me that the witness had

4 difficulty hearing the interpretation, so I asked the usher if he could

5 turn up his volume. So hopefully there should be no problems now.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

7 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. Witness, yesterday in your testimony you mentioned some people and

10 told us that they had been battered. Could you now, if you can tell me,

11 and I shall give you names one by one, which rooms were they kept in?

12 Mr. Munib Veiz.

13 A. Mr. Munib Veiz was in Room 11 when he arrived. Whether he arrived

14 on the 18th or the 19th, but I saw him there. On the 19th it was

15 Room 2 -- no, excuse me, Room 11, which included -- in department 11,

16 which included four rooms.

17 Q. Thank you. And Mr. Nurko Nisic.

18 A. Mr. Nurko Nisic was not in our department, in number 19. He was

19 also in the Room 11, but it happened later. And other things also

20 happened later when many of those who had been in Room 11 and 12 and 15

21 left to another facility, an adjacent facility under the same roof but

22 with a different entrance.

23 Q. Witness, to make it quite clear and quite precise, at the time

24 when they were taken away, which room were they taken away from and which

25 room were they returned to?

Page 1557

1 A. They were taken from Room 12 and brought back to Room 12, that is,

2 the department. That is what we called it. But those departments had

3 several rooms.

4 Q. Yes, yes. I understand that. Thank you. When you say taken away

5 and brought back to Room 12, it concerns Mr. Munib Veiz and Mr. Nurko

6 Nisic, does it?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mustafa Kuloglija.

9 A. Mr. Mustafa Kuloglija - you pronounced it wrongly as Kologlija but

10 he's Kuloglija - he was in that same facility with the common entrance,

11 and he was in Room 12. That was the quarantine.

12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mandzo.

13 A. He was in the other facility. At first there was a collective,

14 that is, all the prisoners were in one facility with one entrance, but as

15 their number grew, as the number of inmates grew, other rooms were opened

16 with another entrance which could not be properly controlled, that is, one

17 could not see who came in or out. When he returned, Mandzo was in the

18 same facility as I was. I don't know which room.

19 Q. To make it quite clear, tell us, during the relevant period when

20 they were coming back from beatings, what room were you in?

21 A. I was in 15, a somewhat smaller room than other rooms. There were

22 seven or eight people, depending on the number of beds that could fit in.

23 Q. Thank you. And finally, Mr. Konjo, what room was he taken from

24 and brought back to?

25 A. Mr. Konjo was in Room 12, which was called the quarantine.

Page 1558

1 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you told us and today you were asked by the

2 Prosecutor specifically that Mr. Krunoslav Marinovic had been brought

3 beaten to the KP Dom. My question is to try to clarify it. When you

4 spoke about Mr. Nail Hodzic, was he also brought to the KP Dom beaten?

5 A. I don't know whether he was brought there beaten, I mean, Nail

6 Hodzic.

7 Q. And Omer Mujezinovic, had he also been beaten already when he

8 arrived in KP Dom?

9 A. Omer Mujezinovic. I don't remember. Perhaps Uzunovic. It could

10 be a mistake.

11 Q. Do you know an individual called Omer Mujezinovic?

12 A. No. Perhaps by sight.

13 Q. And Omer Mujezinovic, was he beaten at all? Do you know him?

14 A. I can't really say whether I know him or whether I don't know

15 him.

16 Q. And Mr. Zulfo Veiz. Was he also brought to the KP Dom beaten?

17 A. Yes, less.

18 Q. Does that mean he arrived beaten at the KP Dom?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yesterday you testified that there was a room from which you heard

21 the sounds of beating and that that room had window panes painted over; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were the windows open or closed when that went on?

25 A. The windows were shut, but one could glean the outlines of people,

Page 1559

1 silhouettes, through those shut windows.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Now I should like to ask the usher to

3 help us to give the witness the ground plan, and I'd like to ask the

4 witness to show us the room from which those sounds reached them.

5 A. It should be the ground floor, a relatively large room, and I

6 claim that that is so.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript, I

8 shall try to explain what the witness showed. On the ground plan, ID 6/1,

9 the witness is pointing at the right-hand part of the administrative

10 building, the fourth room marked as "Sala," as "hall." S-a-l-a. Thank

11 you.

12 Q. Now, the same ground plan, could you show me where is the room

13 that you were in and on what floor is that room.

14 A. This is the ground plan. So the Room 15 was about this size, and

15 it had an entrance in front of the lavatory, then another door which was

16 roughly this size of the common room and the whole length like this.

17 There were about 25 to 30 beds, and here in this part there was a room

18 with two windows with six, seven, eight beds.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 JUDGE HUNT: As he was pointing, although on document 6/1, if you

21 look at 6/4, he was identifying Room 15.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very

23 much for your assistance. That, I believe, quite suffices to identify,

24 please, the things shown by the witness.

25 Since Room 15 actually included four rooms, I will now ask the

Page 1560

1 usher to take Exhibit 6/4 and then the witness can show us which one of

2 those four rooms he was in.

3 A. I've forgotten. I was in -- I was in -- rather, I slept, I had a

4 bed in this room here, and it had windows here and here. It had a

5 fantastic view; that is, if you wanted to look through the window at this

6 part, and then you could go to here because it also had two windows in

7 front of the lavatory, and you could see this side. So this drawing is a

8 caricature of a drawing because the view was much better from here. So

9 this is not a good drawing because it should have been like this.

10 This is one dormitory, this is the third dormitory, and then

11 between that one and next to this one, there was a common room, and then a

12 wall. Then in this part, there was another room, 5 by 6 metres or about a

13 20- or 30-metre area, and then the entrance into the dormitory. So a room

14 in front of the lavatory, then a common room; then from this common room,

15 one entered this room with some 25 to 30 beds and this smaller one with

16 two windows which had seven or maybe eight cots.

17 This one overlooked the walls, and this one, four or six windows

18 altogether, with a view of this area here, like this. So from here, we

19 could see as far as this, and here they had the power generator. We could

20 also observe this part here. We could not see this here, that is, the

21 entrance into the canteen. So we could directly see what went on from

22 here, that is, in this direction, and everything around the gate.

23 I think this explanation suffices. And you should correct this

24 drawing.

25 JUDGE HUNT: The room which he pointed to was the right-hand

Page 1561












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Page 1562

1 bottom room within the group of rooms described as Room 15.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your

3 help. I was about to specify it for the transcript.

4 Q. My next question is as follows: Today you told us that you spent

5 four and a half months in the KP Dom, and that on various occasions when

6 you heard beatings, you also heard bursts of fire. Were those the only

7 times when you heard a shot or shots in the vicinity of the KP Dom?

8 A. No. In daytime, when they would be coming from the battlefield, I

9 guess, there would be some gunfire but very little. At night there was

10 hardly any other gunfire except this one, at least in the vicinity.

11 Therefore, I'd need, perhaps, a little more time to paint for you

12 that picture of what it looked like. Between the exit, as they call it

13 chronologically, it happened as of 6.00 or 7.00 p.m. until about 12.00 or

14 half past twelve or 1.00 at night.

15 If the Court permits and if the Chamber wants me to, I can, I

16 believe, describe very graphically the cries of pain, screams, dull blows,

17 with intermittent bursts of fire around half past eleven, 12.00, half past

18 twelve. Screeches, whether it was a Lada car, and I know the sound of the

19 engine, or whether it was a Golf. But one of those two vehicles, I'm 100

20 per cent sure, took away those half-dead people from the administrative

21 people in the direction of the bridge. I did not see that, but I have,

22 I'm certain to this day, I have this 100 per cent clear image as to how

23 these things happened.

24 If you want me to explain further, I can do that.

25 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Please tell me, how far is it from

Page 1563

1 the main gate of the KP Dom to the bridge on the Drina?

2 A. I cannot give you it down to the last metre, but I can tell you

3 that it could be about 70 or maybe 80 metres from the main gate, or even,

4 I would allow, perhaps 100 metres. It's more difficult to say, as the

5 crow flies. But from our room, it could not have been more than 100, 120,

6 or I'll allow 150 metres, as the crow flies, to the beginning of the

7 bridge.

8 Q. Thank you. Will you agree with me that the Drina is a mountain

9 river and that one can hear it, that it has its own rumble?

10 A. I don't know how familiar with geography you are, but I guess you

11 are not particularly familiar with geography. If the Drina were a

12 mountain river, people would never be able to swim in it. The Drina was a

13 major magnet for people from the continent to come and swim in it.

14 Q. Are you aware that the investigators simulated the throwing of

15 bodies from the bridge and that it could not be heard in the KP Dom? Are

16 you quite sure that what you heard was the throwing of bodies into the

17 river?

18 A. Well, simulation or no simulation, but, sir, had you been in my

19 shoes, had you been in my place, you would have also created in your mind

20 an image such as the one that I am describing. You wouldn't have had a

21 slightest doubt if it was simulation or reality.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

23 questions, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination?

25 MR. SMITH: Just a couple of questions, Your Honour.

Page 1564

1 Re-examined by Mr. Smith:

2 Q. Witness, you mentioned to my learned friend that in a previous

3 statement made to an investigator at the Tribunal, that you described

4 Mr. Krnojelac as having de jure power and Mr. Rasevic and Mr. Todovic as

5 having de facto power. Were they the terms that you used?

6 A. They are.

7 Q. Can you describe what you mean by de jure power, Mr. Krnojelac's

8 de jure power?

9 A. De jure means legally; de facto means in reality. So, and that is

10 my opinion, he was the warden who performed those duties which were within

11 his jurisdiction; but de facto, in reality, larger powers in the discharge

12 of certain duties were vested in those two that I mentioned.

13 Q. Do you know who vested those powers in those two people that you

14 mentioned, Mr. Rasevic and Mr. Todovic?

15 A. I think - I cannot, of course, say that this is indeed so - but I

16 think that it was the type of organisation, that it was simply a form of

17 organisation in which the Crisis Staff, which was on the outside but

18 nevertheless had a major influence, and also the military police played a

19 major role. So, organisationally speaking, the functioning of all that,

20 those two had more control than a man who was the warden.

21 Q. In that sense, are you saying that they exercised the power of the

22 warden? Is that what you're saying, or is it something else?

23 A. Yes, I think it's something along those lines. I cannot really

24 say for certain what the internal organisation was. But I'm referring to

25 people who were carrying out not the policy but what was to be done with

Page 1565

1 inmates, whether it was in the organisational sense of the word or perhaps

2 some other - security, maltreatment, solitary confinement, so on and so

3 forth. But I think that those two were carrying out the tasks that had

4 been given them. Who had given them, I cannot say.

5 Q. And you stated that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden. What

6 responsibilities did he have? Do you know?

7 A. I'm not aware of his responsibilities or powers. I know that he

8 was the warden of the prison.

9 Q. It's the Defence case that Mr. Krnojelac was only in charge of the

10 economic facility and not in charge of the detention of the Muslim

11 detainees. Do you have an opinion on that?

12 A. I don't think that was the case. He was the warden of the KP Dom,

13 of the penitentiary, and it was within his jurisdiction, was the KP Dom as

14 an entity, and there was only one man who acted as its warden. There were

15 several so-called work units, work units or department or whatever they

16 called them, and which before the war functioned as, say, a Work Unit

17 Drina, and it was responsible for organising furniture production. It had

18 its farm, it had its catering unit, it had its fishpond, and so on and so

19 forth. It had different departments, but all of them were under the

20 jurisdiction of the KP Dom warden, and they were all funded by the

21 Republican budget through the Ministry of the Interior.

22 Q. Thank you. And one last question. You were asked about your

23 meeting with Mr. Krnojelac when you were washing the carpets in the prison

24 yard, and you mentioned in your evidence that you spoke to Mr. Krnojelac

25 about -- with concerns about your uncle. My friend then asked you a

Page 1566

1 question: "Later that same day, did Mr. Todovic" --

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe I'm putting the

3 cart before the horse, but I do not think that such a question can be

4 asked in redirect. But I see that my learned friend has -- is using it as

5 an introduction to the next question, which was my question during the

6 cross-examination. So perhaps I should wait for the question to be

7 asked.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I think that might be a good idea.

9 You proceed with the evidence, Mr. Smith.


11 Q. When you spoke to Mr. Krnojelac in the yard about your uncle, was

12 Mr. Todovic there at that time?

13 A. Todovic was not there at the time. He arrived some 10 or perhaps

14 15 minutes later.

15 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Witness. You may now leave.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour, please.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Witness, you may now leave, but will you

19 wait until the blinds have been pulled down, when you'll be escorted from

20 the courtroom.

21 Is Witness 182 the next one? We'll have to wait for that witness

22 to be brought in. Apparently he or she has to be brought from some

23 distance.

24 MR. SMITH: I am unaware, but my friend may be able to assist.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is here in the house and just has

Page 1567

1 to be brought in from the witness room.

2 JUDGE HUNT: The usher warned me that it may take a few minutes,

3 that's all.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE HUNT: The usual list of pseudonyms to which the witness

6 will be referred to, headed "FWS-182," will be Exhibit P406 and it will be

7 under seal.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE HUNT: Will you please make the solemn declaration in the

10 document that's being shown to you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, Witness.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

17 Q. Good day, Witness.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up.


20 Q. Would you speak a little bit louder so that the interpreters can

21 hear your voice.

22 A. Very well. Very well.

23 Q. Witness, you have been granted the protective measure that you had

24 requested, and you have a sheet of paper in front of you. No?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can the witness please be given the Exhibit 4

Page 1568

1 or 6.

2 Q. This sheet in front of you, you see a number on top of it, the

3 number 182. That's your pseudonym. Below this number there is a name.

4 Is that your name?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the date below this name, is that your birth date?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Witness, on that same sheet you have three more names, and

9 whenever you would like to refer to these people listed there, would you

10 please not say the name but the number because these are also protected

11 witnesses. You understand that?

12 A. Very well.

13 Q. Witness, where were you born?

14 A. Foca.

15 Q. What is your ethnicity?

16 A. Bosniak Muslim.

17 Q. Are you married?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you have children?

20 A. I have two children.

21 Q. Where did you live before the war?

22 A. In Foca.

23 Q. And in which neighbourhood?

24 A. In the centre of Foca, the very centre.

25 Q. What was your profession before the war?

Page 1569












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1570

1 A. I was a technical producer in a particular organisation.

2 Q. And when you say "producer," that means you just have to do the

3 technical matters related to the job or were you also a kind of reporter?

4 A. I worked as a journalist for a different organisation and also for

5 this organisation that I worked for from time to time.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: [Previous translation continues] ... session?

8 I just wanted to ask, because I just wanted to ask him where he worked.

9 JUDGE HUNT: It would be quicker, would it not, if we just had it

10 written down?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but it's just one particular question.

12 JUDGE HUNT: All right. We'll go into private session.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1571

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE HUNT: We're now in open session.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Were you a member of any political party before the war?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What kind of party was it?

10 A. The Party of the Reformist Forces.

11 Q. Was this in an ethnically mixed party?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did it cooperate in any way with the SDA or the SDS?

14 A. No way.

15 Q. Why do you say so vehemently, "No way"?

16 A. Because it was not a nationalist party. It was a party that

17 brought together the reformist forces. It was a party that focused on

18 economic programmes. It is the party of the former Prime Minister of

19 Yugoslavia, Ante Markovic who managed to bring about a recovery of

20 Yugoslavia in an economic sense.

21 Q. And why did your party not want to cooperate with the other two?

22 A. Because pre-election rallies of these nationalist parties were

23 already being held, it so happened that I followed these rallies of these

24 parties. They wanted to make their own ethnic groups homogenous.

25 However, we were multiethnic, so to speak. There were Serbs, Croats,

Page 1572

1 members of all ethnic groups in our party.

2 Q. Did you attend any party meeting or assembly of the SDS?

3 A. In view of the job I had, I was duty-bound to do so from time to

4 time and I did so, of course. Yes, I did attend the meetings of these

5 parties.

6 Q. What was the main position of the SDS towards other ethnic

7 groups? Could you describe it?

8 A. First of all, they wanted to homogenise the people, so to speak,

9 at these pre-election rallies; they wanted to organise the people in that

10 way. They were blaming the communists, the reformists, the Bosniak

11 people. They were saying that they had to take power because they were

12 being threatened, that they faced the threat of being exterminated. Those

13 were the major overtones. There was warmongering. It was like that, sort

14 of.

15 Q. When you say "they," you mean the Serbs were threatened, the Serb

16 people were threatened?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Do you recall any particular things they said, and who said that?

19 A. I remember at one such pre-election rally where Mr. Karadzic was

20 present, Mr. Maksimovic, Mr. Ostojic, the late Koljevic, Mrs. Plavsic,

21 Mr. Kilibarda, they spoke in such a tone. One professor from Foca,

22 Krunic, asked what the generals in Montenegro will do. He asked Professor

23 Kilibarda.

24 Q. What is the importance of asking for the generals of Montenegro?

25 What does it mean?

Page 1573

1 A. I was a bit frightened by that because if they didn't manage to

2 take over power completely through the elections, they would use other

3 means too. That's how I understood it. When they said "generals," I was

4 a bit frightened already at that point. I understood "other means" as

5 meaning force, something like that. That was my understanding.

6 Q. When you heard this being said, what year was it or what

7 particular time was it?

8 A. Pre-election, 1990.

9 Q. And when they addressed -- at meetings, the SDS, when they

10 addressed the Muslims, the group of Muslims, how did they address them?

11 Did they use particular terms?

12 A. They said, "Alija wants his own Dzamahirija. They want an Islamic

13 state. They are balijas. They have not lived there for centuries. It is

14 where Serbs always lived. It is their own old Herzegovina from way back.

15 They want to return all of that. They want it to be their own," things

16 like that.

17 Q. When you say they wanted it for their own, does that mean that

18 they wanted to -- what did you understand? Physical separation, or just

19 to have the power?

20 A. Separation, physical. If they do not succeed by political means,

21 then they would resort to all means, as I said a minute ago.

22 Q. Did they regard or express in their speeches that the enemy --

23 that the Muslims were the enemies of the Serbs? Did you hear anything of

24 this?

25 A. Inter alia the Muslims and the communists then. I remember now

Page 1574

1 that some would say -- Mr. Kilibarda, because in Foca there were some

2 members of the Montenegrin people there as well, he sort of addressed them

3 to a greater extent. Mr. Koljevic, the late Mr. Koljevic, was talking

4 more about the former Yugoslavia, the communists, the reformists.

5 Mrs. Biljana Plavsic spoke more about the Muslims. It was in that sense

6 that they were enemies, communists, reformists, and Muslims.

7 Q. We have already heard -- other witnesses have explained to us the

8 position of certain politicians. But Mr. Kilibarda, what was his

9 position? Who was he?

10 A. Radical, as far as the Bosniak people and Bosnia were concerned.

11 At that time, Mr. Kilibarda, Professor/Dr. Kilibarda, was the leader of a

12 party in Montenegro, the peoples' party, the radical party. I really

13 cannot remember now. Mr. Kilibarda is in Sarajevo now. He is the

14 representative of Montenegro in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 Q. How did the ordinary, local people, the inhabitants of Foca,

16 respond to such speeches? Did they affect their daily life?

17 A. Well, those that I was in contact with got to be afraid. At least

18 the people I was in contact with, they were frightened.

19 Q. As a consequence of these speeches and this atmosphere in Foca,

20 did the local people arm themselves?

21 A. Believe me, it's hard for me to say. Later - by later, I mean

22 during 1991, I mean after the elections, when the nationalist parties had

23 already won the elections - it seems to me that it started then. It was a

24 public secret, so to speak, that it had already started. We had heard

25 over the media that some trucks with weapons had already been stopped, and

Page 1575

1 the impression we got on the basis of this information, and it turned out

2 to be so, was that these weapons were going to the Serb people, the Serb

3 forces.

4 Q. When did you work for the last time before the war?

5 A. I have to say that I worked regularly on the 4th of April,

6 regularly. I went one more time but that was, well, voluntary; but I was

7 escorted too.

8 Q. Why did you stop working?

9 A. You couldn't get to work anymore physically.

10 Q. You mean the war broke out and that is why you stopped?

11 A. In a legal sense, the war hadn't started yet. But after two or

12 three days, it did start. There were some forces in Foca already, some

13 military forces.

14 Q. Do you recall when the war broke out in Foca, what day it was?

15 The actual fighting.

16 A. I don't know if I'll be making a mistake if I say that this was

17 between the 7th and the 9th of April.

18 Q. Before the 7th or the 9th of April, the institution you worked in,

19 was it taken over; if so, by whom?

20 A. Yes, they did. It was taken over by the locals in uniform and

21 with masks, those socks over their faces. They were also in uniform.

22 Soldiers in uniform with an emblem stating the Serb Voluntary Guards.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

24 microphone.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Witness, would you pull those microphones a little

Page 1576

1 closer to you so that you are being heard, and speak into the microphones

2 because the interpreters are having difficulty hearing you. Thank you.


4 Q. Witness, when the war, actually, the fighting broke out, did you

5 participate in this fighting at any point in time?

6 A. Not at any point in time.

7 Q. Did you have a weapon?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. Did you ever use it?

10 A. Never.

11 Q. When the war broke out, did you try to leave Foca?

12 A. I tried. I didn't succeed.

13 Q. Why was that? Why didn't you succeed?

14 A. Because already by the 15th, one could not leave Foca, and

15 actually, I was arrested already on the 14th.

16 Q. When you say 15th and 14th, you mean April, April 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The fighting in Foca, did it occur all over Foca or did you

19 observe certain parts to be under attack?

20 A. Since I was not in my apartment, I was in my neighbour's

21 apartment, I could see where the shells were coming from. This was from a

22 hill outside Foca. That neighbourhood is called Sukovac or Siste or

23 something like that. It's between the Zabrana and the Drina.

24 Q. And these neighbourhoods you just mentioned, are these Muslim

25 neighbourhoods?

Page 1577












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1578

1 A. Those are Muslim neighbourhoods towards which the shells were

2 going.

3 Q. And the shells, where did they come from? Could you observe

4 that?

5 A. In my estimate then, it could have come from Zabrana above Foca.

6 Zabrana is what it's called. Then there is also this neighbourhood called

7 Cerezluk, Cerezluk. That's where the shells were coming from.

8 Q. What kind of neighbourhoods are these, ethnically speaking?

9 A. Cerezluk was, it seems to me, at least 90 per cent Serb whereas

10 Zabrana was a mountain lodge. It wasn't a neighbourhood. Actually, we

11 heard that there were cannons dug in there even before the war, in

12 February.

13 Q. Where did you go after the initial fighting?

14 A. I went to the outskirts of Foca with my father and aunt, to my

15 sister's place.

16 Q. Does that neighbourhood have a particular name, and where is it

17 situated in Foca?

18 A. The neighbourhood is called Zubovici. It is between Foca and an

19 industrial neighbourhood called Brod on the Drina.

20 Q. Why did you go there?

21 A. It was no longer safe. Everybody started running away from Foca.

22 My neighbours told me. They all started fleeing. We stayed there on our

23 own. And I said, "Let's go up to my sister's. It's probably safer

24 there." So that's where we went for safety, security reasons.

25 Q. When you came to your sister's, were you the only people going

Page 1579

1 there, taking shelter there, or were there other people already?

2 A. I saw -- I saw about ten more people. There were women and

3 children. About ten people that I saw there and whom I did not know.

4 Q. And how long did you stay at your sister's?

5 A. Until the 14th of April.

6 Q. While you were in your sister's house, did you take part in any

7 discussions with the local Serbs or did you learn about it?

8 A. No. I did not talk to them directly, but local Serbs did come to

9 see my sister's husband to -- took over something, because it was the time

10 when the guards -- there were some guards even before the war and

11 everybody seemed to look after their interests, after their houses. I

12 mean, both sides, Bosniaks and Serbs too, of course. I saw there were

13 some people with some hunting rifles, some other barrels, and those who --

14 that is, Serbs, neighbours who came. They came to talk it over, to see

15 that they did not attack one another but to look after one another.

16 Q. Some of the people in your sister's house had their hunting

17 rifles?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the Serbs that came to the house, did they come in an official

20 capacity or were they just neighbours?

21 A. It was always a delegation of sorts. I remember them. Ilija

22 Calasen, Angel Stamenov; Krunic, whose first name is Vojislav. I can't

23 remember. Krunic. But they knew one another, and they came several

24 times. They were saying that they should not attack one another, to look

25 after one another. The next time they came and asked for weapons to be

Page 1580

1 handed over. That is how I realised that they were a delegation of some

2 organisation or other.

3 Q. Did they tell -- why -- who requested this surrender of weapons?

4 I mean, in which name did they come?

5 A. I think they came on behalf of the SDS.

6 Q. What made you think that?

7 A. At that time, the SDS had already seized the power. It was the

8 leading party, and they were members of that party.

9 Q. While you were at your sister's house, did you get any information

10 of what was going on in other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

11 A. We could hear it on the radio and other media, but we listened to

12 the radio, naturally, and we could hear what was going on in Zvornik, for

13 instance, or Visegrad. Horrible things were happening there too.

14 Q. What was happening there? What did you hear?

15 A. In Zvornik some tanks had already arrived there. Arkan's men had

16 arrived there. In Visegrad too. They were taking away people. Ugly

17 things were happening.

18 Q. When you say they were taking away people, what kind of people?

19 From the --

20 A. Bosniaks.

21 Q. You said that you were arrested on the 14th or 15th. What time of

22 the day did this happen and how?

23 A. I'm sorry. It was the 14th. I mentioned the 15th in relation to

24 something else. But if I may, I will go back just because why I mentioned

25 the 15th. I'd like to explain. Because allegedly the authorities in Foca

Page 1581

1 had said that one could leave Foca by the 15th towards Gorazde, not

2 towards Tjentiste. That is what we had heard.

3 Q. What exactly did you hear about leaving Foca? Who announced

4 what?

5 A. That who wanted could leave, that is, go across the bridge, the

6 one that was demolished, that people could go towards Gorazde if they

7 wanted, but that nobody could go towards Tjentiste, that is, Herzegovina

8 and other places, and that the 15th was the deadline, that on the 15th,

9 they would close it down and nobody would be able to leave after that.

10 Q. Who announced this and how? Was it on the radio or how else?

11 A. We heard it while I was at my sister's. One could still go down

12 to Foca; that is, some could go down to Foca and then come to us and bring

13 us news.

14 Q. And which body announced this? Do you know? Which institution?

15 A. The SDS, I guess, because they were already ruling the town.

16 Q. Yes. Would you please now tell us how you got arrested.

17 A. Since those men with rifles had left, run away, or what do I know,

18 there were four or five men left behind in our house. Five men with their

19 women and children were left behind, so that we were alone in that house

20 and we were hiding in a room. Then fire started around the woods there;

21 that is, we could hear those projectiles hitting the roof and tiles being

22 broken.

23 Then a group of them, of about 20 wearing olive-grey uniforms

24 came, and the neighbour knocked. He also had a house nearby. He knocked

25 and they took us out into that yard. Wife, children, and more people

Page 1582

1 arrived from some other villages, and there were about 20 of us men and

2 there were women and children too.

3 Q. You said a neighbour came -- neighbours came to take you out in

4 the yard. What neighbours? The ethnicity and how they were dressed,

5 could you tell us?

6 A. Yes. He was Bosniak, wearing civilian. May I give you the name?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 Q. These soldiers with weapons and uniforms, who were they?

11 A. I did not know them.

12 Q. What ethnicity did they have?

13 A. I believe they were Serbs.

14 Q. To which army did they belong when they were soldiers?

15 A. They had olive-grey uniforms, and that was the uniform of the

16 former JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.

17 Q. You said you were taken into the yard. Where were you taken then?

18 A. We were taken to Brod Na Drini, which was an industrial locality,

19 an industrial area, to the premises of a company called Ozren.

20 Q. Did the soldiers tell you why they took you away from the house?

21 A. They singled out men; left women and children behind. They said

22 it was for safety's sake.

23 Q. Safety from what? Whose safety? Your safety?

24 A. Our safety.

25 Q. But how was this safety -- your security threatened at that time?

Page 1583

1 Did they explain why you needed to be taken somewhere to be safe?

2 A. At that point, I understood it to mean that worse people were

3 coming and that they would kill us all. That is how I understood it.

4 Q. The other men who were taken to Ozren with you, who were they?

5 Can you tell us their names? The Bosniaks, I mean.

6 A. (redacted)

7 (redacted), and those who were with me; that is, (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted), and I can't remember. It was a long time ago.

10 Q. How long were you kept at Ozren company?

11 A. Three days. Three days.

12 Q. During these days, were you able -- could you have left the

13 premises or were you actually detained there?

14 A. Detained and guarded by guards.

15 Q. Those few people that were taken there together with you, were

16 they the only people being detained there or were there more?

17 A. We were the first ones to arrive, but then women and children,

18 more men arrived. Some had already been beaten, I can put it freely that

19 way, because one had broken ribs. We were about 45 in that room.

20 Q. These people in the room, these 45, what ethnicity did they have?

21 A. Bosniaks, all of them. And there was a lady whose first name was

22 Ankica and who was married to a Bosniak.

23 Q. Any of these people, if you can tell us, were any of them involved

24 in fighting, or were they all civilians?

25 A. They were all civilians.

Page 1584

1 Q. Did the soldiers mistreat you, or any of the other people in

2 Ozren?

3 A. They took out some for examination, and some did not come back or

4 came like this one who had been beaten up. They did not ill-treat me

5 bodily but, yes, they did mentally. This guard would come, put the barrel

6 of his weapon against your forehead and threaten to kill you, so that was

7 a kind of ill-treatment. And also because we had nothing to eat. In

8 three days, they only gave us some stale bread, nothing else.

9 Q. Where were you taken after these three days?

10 A. We were taken to a room. It was the depot of the former reserve.

11 It was called Solana, salt storage. But this is on the other side of

12 Foca, at the other end of Foca.

13 Q. What is the name of this other end? What is the name of this

14 place you were taken to?

15 A. Livade is what they called it.

16 Q. Were all the detainees from Ozren taken there or only some?

17 A. Not women and children, they were not brought from Ozren. And

18 some of those who were taken did not come back. But at any rate, the

19 whole room at Ozren was vacated.

20 Q. When you arrived at Livade, were there already other persons

21 there; if so, how many?

22 A. Yes, there were other people there. My father was there too

23 because he was detained before me, perhaps a day or two before me. There

24 were many other people, 30 or maybe 40. They sat shivering. Now when I

25 remember what they looked like, their faces had been deformed. I

Page 1585












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1586

1 recognised some by their voices but I could not recognise their faces.

2 One of them had his mouth somewhere here. You know, it was horrible to

3 look at them.

4 JUDGE HUNT: At the time the witness said that, he was pointing

5 near to his right ear.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness, do you know the name of this person who had his mouth

8 actually on the other side of the face?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. What was the name?

11 A. Kruno Marinovic, a Croat.

12 Q. How long did you stay at Livade?

13 A. Between two and three hours, something like that.

14 Q. Where were you taken next?

15 A. We were put on trucks in the evening and then we arrived at KP

16 Dom.

17 Q. Which day was that, then?

18 A. Well, it could have been the 17th or maybe the 18th.

19 Q. Of April?

20 A. April, yes.

21 Q. Were all the people who were kept in Livade taken to KP Dom with

22 you? Was Livade vacated?

23 A. In this room where I was, that is, at the salt storage, I think

24 so, yes. Because there were several truckloads, there were quite a number

25 of them, and I think that we all arrived, yes.

Page 1587

1 Q. How long did you stay at the KP Dom?

2 A. Twenty-eight months, that is, until August 1994.

3 Q. Those who took you there, did they tell you why you were taken to

4 the KP Dom?

5 A. No, they did not.

6 Q. Did you ever find out why you were detained in KP Dom?

7 A. Because I'm a Bosniak, a Muslim.

8 Q. Were you ever charged or convicted afterwards, while you were in

9 the KP Dom?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. Do you know if any of those who were arrested together with you

12 were ever charged officially with whatever crime?

13 A. Never.

14 Q. When you arrived, who received you at KP Dom?

15 A. It was night-time so I could not see, but there were some

16 uniformed, camouflaged individuals. But there were all sorts of people

17 and they immediately put us in one room, in the quarantine. It was

18 raining and dark so that I could not see. I could not see the faces; I

19 could not recognise anyone.

20 Q. Were you searched when you arrived in the KP Dom?

21 A. We were searched only after we arrived in that room. That was the

22 quarantine, that is, Room 12, where they searched us. There I saw that I

23 did not know those men, and I realised from their speech that they were

24 not locals, that they were not from our town, because one could hear a

25 Montenegrin accent and some of the accents from Serbia.

Page 1588

1 Q. You said there were these people -- these people had all sorts of

2 uniforms. Were they soldiers?

3 A. They had weapons. Some had camouflage trousers; some wore leather

4 jackets; some had bandannas. Some of them, I guess, were soldiers; some

5 could have been mercenaries or something like that.

6 Q. Were you mistreated on your arrival, or any others from your

7 group?

8 A. Not at the arrival but during our stay in that room. We were

9 about 45 there, on some beds which had only the springs and nothing else.

10 It was cold, I remember.

11 Q. When you arrived, could you tell who was in charge of the prison

12 at that time?

13 A. No, I cannot.

14 Q. Were you registered when you arrived or any time later?

15 A. Later, yes. At that time, no.

16 Q. Who registered you and when?

17 A. The first attempt to register us was in April, and it could have

18 been the 25th of April or thereabouts, 26th. They came from the

19 International Red Cross. I remember the name of the lady who introduced

20 herself to us, Ms. Hady [phoen]. And they described the room that we were

21 in, and there were 40 of us, and they went to other rooms to register

22 them.

23 We learned later on that they had stopped the registration and

24 turned them back, turned them away. And I later on learned that they had

25 seized their documentation and their car.

Page 1589

1 Then the second time was in 1993, mid-1993.

2 Q. When you say they stopped -- they stopped the ICRC, who is

3 "they"? Who is "they" who stopped the registration?

4 A. The guards stopped them. At that time, the locals, that is, the

5 former guards of the penitentiary, they had already begun working there

6 again and they were the ones who stopped them.

7 Q. Witness, when I asked you if you were registered, I was not

8 actually thinking about the ICRC, but I would like to know if you were

9 registered by the KP Dom authorities at a point in time.

10 A. No, never, never.

11 Q. You mentioned that you were in Room 12, the so-called quarantine.

12 Where was that room? If you tell us the floor where it was.

13 A. It was the ground floor. The first entrance, ground floor, on the

14 right-hand side.

15 Q. Was there any other room on the left-hand side, and if so, which

16 room, which number?

17 A. Yes, there was. Room 11.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think this clarifies the

19 matters enough, and I don't think there is any dispute what the witness is

20 talking about, and I don't want to show him the floor plan. I don't think

21 it's necessary. But if the Defence dispute him being in 12 and 11 and

22 knowing what he's talking about ...

23 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest you wait and see if there is a dispute

24 and if there is, you can come back to it by leave if necessary. We don't

25 want to do this with every witness.

Page 1590

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. That's what I thought.

2 Q. How long did you stay in Room 12?

3 A. In Room 12 I spent about three days there, three days.

4 Q. How many detainees were with you in that Room 12?

5 A. I just said it. About 40, 45 detainees. While -- excuse me.

6 While we were there they kept bringing in more people, just throwing

7 people in, not taking them in but throwing them in. I know that one is

8 Mandzo. I can't remember his first name. Salko, I believe. He had a

9 bloody bruise under his eye. (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted). And they brought our physician, our

12 physician who had also been detained, to dress these wound that he had.

13 That was in that Room 12 that I was in.

14 Three days later I was -- rather, I had asked the man who had

15 brought in some bag of stale bread, I asked to be taken to Room 11 because

16 I had seen my father there. He did indeed take me -- transfer me to

17 Room 11. I believe it was on the third day.

18 Q. The person you asked and actually allowed your transfer to

19 Room 11, was it a regular guard or was it one of these soldiers? Who was

20 he?

21 A. He was a uniformed man, an olive-grey uniform. People used to

22 call him Uco, "Teach." He spoke with a Montenegrin accent, but I didn't

23 know him otherwise.

24 Q. How long did you stay in Room 11?

25 A. For about two or three days, perhaps, thereabouts. Two or three

Page 1591

1 days.

2 Q. And how many detainees were with you in Room 11?

3 A. Well, if I say between 80 and 100, of that order.

4 Q. Where were you taken next, into which room?

5 A. We were taken to Room 15.

6 Q. And Room 15, where was it in the building? Do you know the

7 floor?

8 A. Well, if we count the ground floor as the first storey, then it

9 would be the first storey.

10 Q. Do you know why you were taken from Room 11 to 15? Did anything

11 happen before you were moved?

12 A. We all had to go for interrogation, for examination, and I went

13 too. I was interviewed by Koprivica, by investigator Koprivica. He also

14 interviewed my father. He said that he was vouching for us and that he

15 would send us to a room which would be safer and where some select people

16 would be kept.

17 Q. Did you know Mr. Koprivica from before the war, and who was he?

18 A. Yes, I knew him well. He also used to work for the same

19 organisation as I did for a while and then had moved over to the Ministry

20 of the Interior. But we were friends, close friends.

21 Q. Did Mr. Koprivica indicate why Room 15 would be safer?

22 A. Well, something like safer, but the gist of it was -- I'm not

23 trying to offend anyone, but just to have some town dwellers, people that

24 he knew, people who were urban dwellers. That is how I understood that.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 11.00.

Page 1592

1 JUDGE HUNT: It's actually 1.00. We will adjourn now and resume

2 at 2.30.

3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.























Page 1593












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1594

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, you have told us before the break that you were in Room

5 15. How long were you in this room; do you recall?

6 A. I think until August. The 29th of August or the beginning of

7 September, something like that.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

9 microphone again.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Witness, can you move up again towards the microphone

11 so that you can be heard.


13 Q. And which year?

14 A. 1992.

15 Q. Were other detainees brought to your room after you came -- to

16 this Room 15 after you were taken there?

17 A. I don't know about that period, but afterwards I was returned to

18 Room 15 again.

19 Q. Yes. What was the highest number of detainees in Room 15 at that

20 time, this time from April to August 1992?

21 A. Somewhere between 40 and 45.

22 Q. Did you know these detainees from before the war?

23 A. I knew many.

24 Q. What was the ethnicity of the detainees you met in all these

25 rooms? I mean Room 11, Room 12, Room 15. What was the ethnicity of these

Page 1595

1 people?

2 A. Bosniak.

3 Q. And what age? What was the variety of age of the people you met

4 there in these three rooms?

5 A. From 14 to 80. In our room -- I'm sorry, the sound is bad. There

6 is an echo in my headphones.

7 JUDGE HUNT: That's a matter which can only be cured, I think, by

8 the technical people. Try it again.

9 A. From 14 to the age of 80, with one exception. In our room, number

10 15, there was a little girl who might have been about seven years old.


12 Q. Were these people all civilians? Could you tell?

13 A. All were civilians. All were civilians.

14 Q. Were sick people among you?

15 A. There were sick people too.

16 Q. You yourself, were you actually as well a sick person?

17 A. That's right. In addition to myself, there were patients who had

18 tuberculosis, who had TBC. They were brought from the local hospital.

19 They also had lice; they had been infected by lice. There were people who

20 also had heart problems, asthma. There were lots of health problems so we

21 even separated them in a room so that we would not all be in touch.

22 Q. What did you suffer from?

23 A. I had an ulcer on the duodenum.

24 Q. Was your condition serious so that you needed medical treatment?

25 A. In every respect, because I could not eat all kinds of food. This

Page 1596

1 is a stomach problem; it requires a special diet and it also requires

2 mental rest, psychological rest. But we didn't have any of that. So in

3 the -- within one month's time, I was in very bad shape. I was really in

4 a critical condition.

5 Q. Did you do anything to get this -- to get medical treatment?

6 A. I tried and many others tried. We tried through the guards there

7 to get in touch with the warden. Some succeeded, others didn't. I

8 managed to get in touch with the warden. I managed to because I did it

9 through a guard whom I knew. We wrote about our wish to be seen by the

10 warden, and this guard took me there so that I could seek medical

11 assistance and help for my father.

12 Q. Who was the warden?

13 A. The warden was Mr. Krnojelac.

14 Q. How do you know that?

15 A. They told us that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden. The guards told

16 us you had to report to the warden. You hear about everything.

17 Everything is known.

18 Q. Was there a particular guard who told you that Mr. Krnojelac was

19 the warden?

20 A. No. We heard it just like that.

21 Q. And to get in touch with the warden, what did you actually do?

22 Did you write kind of a written request to see him?

23 A. Yes. Many wrote them. I said a few minutes ago that I also wrote

24 at the insistence of this guard whom I knew. He once took me to see the

25 warden.

Page 1597

1 Q. The guard whom you knew, who was that?

2 A. (redacted), Milenko Elcic. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 Q. Does that mean he's about your age or do you even know his birth

5 date?

6 A. (redacted), but I don't know his birth date.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, to help you find a reference, we

8 have this list of stuff that is Prosecution Exhibit P3, and number 34 in

9 this list, that is actually the person Milenko Elcic.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


12 Q. When you wrote this written request to see the warden, did you

13 actually write to see the warden or did you write to see Mr. Krnojelac?

14 Do you recall that?

15 A. The warden. The warden.

16 Q. When did you write this request, and when did you see the warden?

17 A. It was in mid-June, June. That's when I saw Mr. Krnojelac, the

18 warden.

19 Q. You said that the guard Elcic took you to the warden. Where was

20 it that he took you?

21 A. He took me to the administrative building which was opposite where

22 we were staying. The room is in the ground floor. It's one of the rooms

23 on the ground floor.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, please.

Page 1598

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

2 show the witness Exhibit 6/1A.

3 Q. Would you please point the room out that you were taken to and

4 where you met Mr. Krnojelac. On the map, please, not on the monitor.

5 A. This is building number 1, Room 15. I already said a few minutes

6 ago it was the second floor, and this was the administrative building and

7 these are the rooms. I can't remember exactly which one it is. It's one

8 of these rooms here.

9 That room only had a chair -- two chairs, a table. I mean, it

10 looked like a waiting room, as if it were used like a waiting room.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, the witness was pointing at

12 the three rooms on the ground floor called - I don't have my glasses -

13 "office." "Soba." It says here "soba." "Soba." At least that is what

14 I can say. It says "Room 1" and "Room 2." That is where he is pointing

15 at.

16 Q. Thank you. That's enough. Thank you.

17 When you arrived in that room, was Mr. Krnojelac already in the

18 room?

19 A. Yes, he was.

20 Q. Was there anyone else in the room or was he alone?

21 A. He was alone, Mr. Krnojelac.

22 Q. What was he wearing?

23 A. As far as I can remember, he wore a coat, blue coloured. As far

24 as I can remember. It's a bit hard for me to say, but I think it was a

25 blue coat.

Page 1599

1 Q. Was it a military or a civilian coat or a police coat?

2 A. I think it was a police coat.

3 Q. What was said between you and Mr. Krnojelac? What did you tell

4 him? What did he tell you?

5 A. I asked for medical assistance for myself, of course, because I --

6 my weight had already dropped to about 50 kilograms, and not only mine,

7 everybody's. We had all lost weight. And I didn't feel well, so I sought

8 medical assistance, and I asked him to have me transferred to the hospital

9 because I saw that things would not go well with me and I thought I was

10 dying.

11 Q. Did you tell him that you felt you were dying and that you needed

12 urgent help?

13 A. I think that Mr. Krnojelac knew that even beforehand about me, the

14 way I was, and I'm sure I told him during this contact we had, but I think

15 he knew even before.

16 Q. And how did you -- how did he respond to your request to be

17 brought to the hospital?

18 A. He said to me only that he would see what he could do.

19 Q. Did he indicate to you if he would need approval or if he could do

20 it on his own decision, transfer you to the hospital?

21 A. I only remember that he said to me, "I'll see what I can do."

22 That's what I really remember. I don't remember anything else really

23 because we only talked for about two or three minutes.

24 Q. While you talked to him, did you address him with his name or did

25 you address him with his title as the warden?

Page 1600

1 A. Only his title "Warden."

2 Q. Why did you do that?

3 A. Because we were told that he was the warden. We all knew that he

4 was the warden.

5 Q. Did you know Mr. Krnojelac from before the war?

6 A. Yes. Yes. Only by sight. I hadn't had any contact with him

7 before the war. Perhaps in passing. But I knew his face.

8 Q. Do you know where Mr. Krnojelac's house is situated in Foca? And

9 did you ever go there?

10 A. I don't know exactly now what the name of the street is but I know

11 the place, approximately. It is between the centre and Donje Polje. His

12 son, Spomenko, had a cafe in that house, right next to the house. I went

13 to that cafe.

14 Q. Did you go to this cafe until the war started?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was it a place that Muslims, Croats, and Serbs frequented all the

17 time, even until April 1992?

18 A. Not exactly all the time. Already in April 1992, in Foca, there

19 were these groupings. Different ethnic groups went to different cafes. I

20 didn't. But when these nationalist parties started organising their

21 election rallies and when there were already conflicts, I didn't go there

22 anymore.

23 Q. When did you stop going there?

24 A. I really cannot remember exactly right now. 1990, 1991.

25 Q. Were you actually -- after having had this conversation with

Page 1601












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1602

1 Mr. Krnojelac, were you actually taken to the hospital?

2 A. No.

3 Q. How did you survive, then, your serious medical condition?

4 A. Thanks to some external connections, I managed to get some of the

5 medication I needed. Primarily my external connections.

6 Q. What were these external connections? Who helped you get

7 medication?

8 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want their name?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

10 Q. Or if you don't want to say the names, just say the category, if

11 you have a problem with the names.

12 A. My former friends, my friends whom I associated with before the

13 war, Serbs, they helped me for some time. And then later, when the

14 International Red Cross came and when there was medical care, then they

15 helped me too. So I managed to pull through a bit.

16 Q. This external help, did that have to be done secretly or was

17 everybody aware of that?

18 A. Only secretly, and that was far from easy either.

19 Q. Did you try to approach the accused Krnojelac again to get medical

20 help and treatment?

21 A. I did on a number of occasions, but I was never received again

22 through guards.

23 Q. Did you ever try to approach him when he was in the yard?

24 A. I couldn't come close to him because I was kept in a different

25 dormitory, not in number 15 anymore. When I saw Mr. Krnojelac enter the

Page 1603

1 building, that is, the other building, the other entrance, I was waiting

2 at the window to see him come back so as to approach him and ask him to

3 help me.

4 Q. Where were you when -- in which room were you when you tried to

5 approach him?

6 A. It was a room with another entrance. It was either 16 or 18.

7 No. Sixteen, I think.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think it's easier when we use a photo now.

9 I would like to show the witness Exhibit 18, photo 7512.

10 JUDGE HUNT: While that's being done, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, this is

11 not, as I understand it, a voice distortion case. You can leave your

12 microphone on.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's what I thought, Your Honour, but I got

14 this little remark here from the usher who asked me to turn it off. I was

15 a little bit surprised. I thought maybe this was from the echo, because

16 of the echo. But I think it's easier for me to leave it on and we can

17 try --

18 JUDGE HUNT: Let's see how we go.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I think it's the -- yes, the bottom

20 photo.

21 Q. Could you point out in which room you were when you saw

22 Mr. Krnojelac.

23 A. This room. That was the room.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the ground floor

25 room on the left-hand side of the photo.

Page 1604

1 Q. Where did you see Mr. Krnojelac? Where was he?

2 A. You can't see it very well. There is a window on this side here.

3 This is one wing that I'm showing you. Here there is a room, and this is

4 where I was waiting for him to pass. It's right next to the door.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing, again, at building

6 2 and was pointing to the last window on the ground floor, right-hand

7 side.

8 Q. But Mr. Krnojelac, where was he going? Can you show us where he

9 was going? I think we have to use the bottom photo.

10 A. I saw him enter, that is, take the stairs here, near the window

11 where I was, and then he went up. I was waiting for him to return, taking

12 the same route, to stop him then and ask him.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the somewhat

14 hidden entrance to building 3 on the photo.

15 Q. And it's hidden behind the bushes; is that correct?

16 A. It is.

17 JUDGE HUNT: When you say number 3, you mean the photograph where

18 there appears a number 3 on a yellow sticker. It's building number 1.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I just wanted to point out this number

20 3 on the sticker.

21 Q. Witness, what did you do to get Mr. Krnojelac's attention?

22 A. I called to him, I said, "Warden, could you receive me? I'm in no

23 shape at all," and he merely turned, cast an angry look at me and just

24 went on, didn't say anything.

25 Q. What was he wearing when you saw him on that occasion?

Page 1605

1 A. An olive-grey uniform, a military -- an officer bag, and a pistol

2 on a wide belt, in a holster.

3 Q. When did this happen, this incident when you called him without

4 getting a result?

5 A. It was -- I moved from Room 15 to 13 on the 30th of September. So

6 it could have been in early 1993, in the beginning of 1993.

7 Q. Do you know what he was doing in this building he went into?

8 A. For a while locals, local Serbs used to come here, that is, to be

9 detained. They were civilians and uniformed, and when they would come,

10 they would be kept in that part of the building. So I suppose he went to

11 see them.

12 Q. Who was with him when you saw him? Was he alone or was he

13 accompanied by someone?

14 A. Alone.

15 Q. Did you see the accused on other occasions in the KP Dom?

16 A. On another occasion when a colleague tried to escape from the

17 camp. At the time, I was in solitary confinement, and I could merely get

18 a glimpse of the platform where they had lined up other detainees, and I

19 could see him only out of the corner of my eye.

20 Q. When was that? Approximately.

21 A. 1993.

22 Q. And what was he wearing on that occasion?

23 A. A uniform again.

24 Q. Does that mean you saw him only three times altogether or did you

25 also see him on other occasions?

Page 1606

1 A. Only three times.

2 Q. You said that about 45 or 40 people were staying together with you

3 in Room 15, and you also mentioned your father. How long did your father

4 stay with you in Room 15?

5 A. Until the 3rd of May.

6 Q. Was he then released?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who released him? How did that come about?

9 A. A guard came, senior guard came into our room and called out

10 the -- read out the names of people who were to go out and that is how my

11 father left.

12 Q. Was he the only one who left on the 3rd of May or others as well?

13 A. No, there were other people. I can't remember. I really don't

14 know. I know that Dedovic Ramic was released. Hasan Pilav was released.

15 He had a heart condition. My father was the oldest one in the room, and

16 there are other elderly men. Except Osman Radovic, who was my age, that

17 is, born in the early 1950s, 1950 perhaps.

18 Q. And when we speak about the 3rd of May, it's 1992 or another

19 year?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Did anything happen before the 3rd of May that may be connected to

22 this release?

23 A. I tried to say that. When the International Red Cross came for

24 the first time in April, around the 25th of April, they then had the names

25 of those men who were in our room. So that could have been the reason

Page 1607

1 perhaps. That is my guess.

2 Q. Did your father get any release papers? Do you know? Did you

3 ever see anything on him?

4 A. I could not see anything at that time. Afterwards, my father

5 showed me a certificate releasing him and saying that he has to report to

6 the police station at regular intervals. He had such a piece of paper.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

8 show the witness the document identification number 65 from -- Your

9 Honour, this actually is a document that refers to the Witness 05, but I

10 would like to have the witness look at it and tell us if he saw a similar

11 document in his father's possession.

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Do you have the redacted version? Yes? Can

14 we please put it on the ELMO, only the redacted version.

15 A. May I add something? My father still has this document.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: At least I have a redacted version.

17 JUDGE HUNT: 65A is the number on it.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 65A. That's the translation, actually. I

19 would like to --

20 JUDGE HUNT: It is redacted.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, it's redacted, yes, but I would like

22 to -- yes, we can put it on. Yes. The translation is fine, yes.

23 Q. If you, Witness, look at the original, please, and can you tell us

24 which organisation produced this certificate? When you look on the top --

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. The witness has to look on the document,

Page 1608

1 on the original document.

2 Q. Can you read Cyrillic?

3 A. I can, yes. The Crisis Staff.

4 Q. And when you look at the bottom of the document, you see some

5 signatures. Can you tell us, first of all, the body, who these people who

6 signed it belonged to? Is it the "Authorised employees of the Serb police

7 station Foca and representatives of the military command"? Do you see

8 that on the document? That's on the --

9 A. I cannot see. I cannot really say anything about the signatures.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Above the signatures, Witness.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Above the signatures.

12 Q. I just read to you the "Authorised employees of the Serb" --

13 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes.

14 Q. And on the right-hand side you see "Crisis Staff of the Serb

15 municipality of Foca," and there's also a signature. Would you know whose

16 signature it is?

17 A. No. I do not recognise any of them. I could try now to decipher

18 them, but no, I didn't know them.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution would like to

20 enter this document into evidence and also the translation of it, although

21 it's actually related to a different witness. But as we have heard from

22 this witness, his father has something -- such a document as well. I

23 wonder if it is possible.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'll hear what Mr. Bakrac has to say, but you

25 are tendering it only as a document which the witness has said is similar

Page 1609












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1610

1 to that which his father still has. You're not tendering it for any

2 purposes in relation to Witness 05.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, exactly.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Bakrac, have you got any problem with

5 that?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do object because

7 this paper, this document, was part of our discussion between the Defence

8 and Prosecution about its admission into evidence. Either the Prosecutor

9 tenders it -- the reason does not matter because this document will be in

10 the evidence and will serve as evidence, and this document was one of the

11 reasons for which we met to discuss the testimony of the Witness 05. That

12 is one thing.

13 Secondly, the witness says that his father is in possession of

14 such a document. Why doesn't the Prosecution then try to get this

15 document from the witness, rather, the witness' father and then produce

16 that as an exhibit? That is why we object to the admission of this

17 document into evidence for the time being.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I don't think that you have heard what I

19 said and with which the Prosecution agreed. It is not being tendered in

20 any way in relation to Witness 05; it is being tendered solely as a

21 document similar to the one which this witness' father still has, in other

22 words, an exit permit. It's not being tendered as proof of anything in

23 relation to Witness 05. Now, when you say it's in evidence, that may be

24 technically correct, but it's not going to prove anything in relation to

25 Witness 05 at all.

Page 1611

1 Now, do you still object to it?

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, not anymore. Thank you.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that will be Exhibit P65, and that one will be

4 under seal, and Exhibit P65A, which need not be under seal.


6 Q. Witness, besides the rooms you have mentioned before, were the

7 detainees also kept in the isolation cells?

8 A. Yes, they were. And I was in solitary confinement on several

9 occasions. Many, many people went through solitary confinement cells.

10 Q. What kind of persons were kept in the isolation cells? Was there

11 a particular category of persons who were taken there and even kept there

12 for longer?

13 A. At the very beginning, that is to say, when we came and some, I

14 don't know, 20 or so days after that, people were taken to isolation

15 cells. I know some of them and I think they were members of the SDA.

16 Afterwards, that is to say, during 1992 and until mid-1993, there

17 weren't any rules. Whoever broke any one of their rules, house rules, the

18 law, then they were taken to solitary confinement. I'm saying that

19 because while I was there in Room 15, at the very beginning, a man came

20 from an isolation cell. His name was Ekrem Tulek. He was there for 112

21 days. He was in the same room with me. Since that was July, then he must

22 have been in solitary confinement from the month of April.

23 Q. And Mr. Tulek, who was he? Was he such a member of the SDA that

24 you just mentioned?

25 A. I can't say, I'm sorry. Avdo Mehmedspahic was in solitary

Page 1612

1 confinement at first. He was in solitary confinement for a long time. I

2 think he was an SDA supporter.

3 Q. You yourself, you said you were taken there several times. Could

4 you please tell us when you were taken there for the first time, and why?

5 A. I was taken to solitary confinement for the following reason:

6 They found a radio set in our room, and once they searched the place, the

7 whole place - I was actually hiding that radio set so that we could listen

8 to the news and things like that - then they realised it was there. They

9 knew that I was the one who had the radio and then I went to solitary

10 confinement.

11 Q. When was that?

12 A. That was in 1992, sometime in July or August.

13 Q. Who sent you? Who made the decision that you had to go into

14 solitary confinement?

15 A. I don't know who made the decision but I know who took me. About

16 four guards got into the room and started searching it. They searched the

17 beds and everything. They started looking for that radio. I didn't want

18 to admit to that, and then one of my acquaintances, a guard, said that it

19 was better for me to say that it was there and where it came from rather

20 than not say, because otherwise they would kill me. I handed over that

21 radio.

22 They took me to Savo Todovic, to an office in the administrative

23 building on the ground floor. Miro Prodanovic was also there. Savo was

24 interested in hearing who had brought me the radio in the first place. He

25 thought that somebody had brought it through external connections.

Page 1613

1 However, it was my father who brought me that radio when he came to visit

2 me the last time.

3 Q. How long were you in solitary confinement on that occasion?

4 A. I know that it was the entire weekend, and it was nine days

5 altogether, I think.

6 Q. While you were there, were you mistreated? Were you beaten or

7 abused otherwise?

8 A. I was mistreated by the fact that I was in an isolation cell. I

9 did not have a blanket or anything. We only had some water, whatever they

10 brought, a slice of bread for the entire day.

11 Todovic made me write something, write some kind of statement. He

12 wanted me to be a stool pigeon, to write down what was being said and

13 things like that. I didn't want to do that. He came to see me in the

14 isolation cell a few times and said that I would die there, that I would

15 never get out. He also kicked me a few times.

16 Q. The second time when you were in isolation, when was that?

17 A. I can't say exactly but I was there for ten days again, and

18 Todovic sent me to the isolation cell then. He said to one of the guards

19 to take me there. It was Milic who took me there. The procedure was the

20 same as in the first case; all of it was the same.

21 Q. And what had you done that they sent you there?

22 A. Among other things, we made that thing that you use for

23 cigarettes, cigarette holders, and we made them for guards also. We had

24 already started smuggling tobacco a bit with them, and then we made

25 bread. Todovic did not allow that. He saw me giving one Serb this

Page 1614

1 cigarette holder and he sent me to solitary confinement straight away.

2 Q. Were you mistreated then, on this occasion? Were you beaten or

3 kicked?

4 A. No, except that when a guard took me out of the solitary

5 confinement cell, there was this man Milutinovic who hit me really bad.

6 Q. Do you recall when you were taken in again to isolation?

7 A. It was the third time when Zekovic, this colleague, tried to

8 escape. I mean there were lots of us in the room. I was in one of the

9 solitary confinement cells with one person, and there were others in other

10 cells. There were 20 or 30 men in isolation cells, in the plural, a lot.

11 There were two other men in my isolation cell with me. We stayed there

12 for three days.

13 Q. Why were you taken there? Did you have anything to do with this

14 escape of the one detainee?

15 A. I had nothing to do with it. However, I knew the man. We were

16 friends before the war, the man who tried to escape and I, and also during

17 our stay at the camp.

18 Then Savo Todovic first called me into one of the guard's huts and

19 Stefanovic, Predrag Stefanovic, was with him. They asked me what I knew,

20 whether he told me that he would be escaping. I didn't know that he would

21 escape so I couldn't say anything. He hit me with a rifle butt, the butt

22 of an automatic rifle, a few times. Todovic hit me a few times there and

23 then he sent me to an isolation cell.

24 Q. Do you know about these other persons that were also locked up in

25 isolation cells on that occasion? Why were they taken there? Did they

Page 1615

1 have anything to do with the escapee?

2 A. I can't say. In their estimate, probably. And these persons,

3 they're -- I really can't say. I can't, really.

4 Q. Witness, you have already mentioned that there were some Serb

5 prisoners in the KP Dom in building 2. Can you tell us how many and when,

6 at what time periods, they were there? From the beginning or only later?

7 A. Already in 1992, it was the locals. I mentioned there were

8 civilians and there were some in uniform. I knew many of those who were

9 there. And they came, I think, not every day, but somebody kept coming

10 and going all the time and others were coming in, so I don't know exactly

11 how many there were. But at any rate, it started in 1992.

12 Q. Right from the beginning?

13 A. Yes. No. No, sorry. Sorry. You mean from April onwards?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. After July, I think. After July they started, I think.

16 Q. And these Serbs, would you know if they were convicts or for

17 whatever reason they were there? Would you know?

18 A. I don't know the actual truth, but we had information to the

19 effect that somebody didn't want to go fight in the war, others were

20 stealing or looting.

21 Q. Were you able at that time and can you tell us now how the living

22 conditions of these Serb detainees were compared with the living

23 conditions that you yourself and the other Muslims had? Could you tell us

24 what the living conditions were in regard of food, you and the Serb

25 detainees or prisoners?

Page 1616

1 A. The difference was drastic. At first -- if we are to compare this

2 period -- I mean, I think, it was perhaps July. Perhaps we had 100 grams

3 of bread per day. We also had some kind of a meal like a bit of soup but

4 not a very good strong soup or anything like that. For breakfast we'd

5 get, for example, an egg or sometimes a pate, a small tin to be shared by

6 two persons. That's the way it went on and on and on and on, while these

7 detainees could even receive packages, parcels. They had a different

8 entrance altogether. They could receive visitors. They could get bread.

9 They had enough bread, whereas I, regrettably, had to steal bread, to take

10 it from various garbage cans, containers. I mean, the difference was

11 really drastic.

12 Q. When you compare the hygienic conditions they lived in and the

13 Muslims or the Croats lived in, could you compare these?

14 A. I could not go to their rooms, but I can say that our hygienic

15 conditions were basically non-existent. We could not change the bed

16 linen, we could not take a bath. It was cold, wintertime. We didn't have

17 any heating or anything. At some moment, we all got lice. I don't know

18 whether you have a word for that kind of thing. We had only cold water.

19 We had to use cold water to wash, in the toilets. That was it.

20 Q. And we do not need to go into the details -- into more details of

21 the living conditions because we have already heard other witnesses giving

22 us a lot of details in regard to this, but you have already mentioned that

23 due to the lack of food, you had very serious problems with your ulcer.

24 What about the coldness? Did you suffer any physical results due

25 to the coldness and due to the sanitary conditions you lived in?

Page 1617












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Page 1618

1 A. I think that the cold affected my fingers the most. That's when

2 my fingers started getting stiff very rapidly. Now it's abated a bit. As

3 for all the rest, it is due to starvation. Hygienically, I tried to be

4 disciplined and to do whatever was possible.

5 Q. How did the living conditions affect you mentally?

6 A. Well, that's a different question altogether. I noticed -- I

7 noticed that I was really down and even more so, and then I thought I was

8 dying. I thought a lot about myself. I even thought of the very worst.

9 It is very hard to remain sane under such conditions. An empty stomach

10 puts no questions. It seems I'm hungry until the present day. I can

11 never have enough bread it seems.

12 Q. Did you become suicidal at a point in time?

13 A. That's what I said a few minutes ago, the worst thoughts.

14 Q. And what was it actually? Could you say what actually caused this

15 being suicidal? What was it?

16 A. This situation that I could not change for myself, my gradual

17 dying, suffering. I couldn't bear to see myself that way any more.

18 Everybody knew that, the guards and everyone. Everyone kept asking,

19 "Haven't you died?"

20 Q. Did someone actually die of an ulcer while you were there, and if

21 so, who was it and when did that happen?

22 A. In the beginning. Was it May? April, May. At the very

23 beginning, an acquaintance of mine in a room, I think it was Room 18 or

24 16, he was there first, or in an isolation cell, I'm not sure, but I

25 remember seeing them carrying him in a blanket to the gate. Eso Hadzic.

Page 1619

1 He was a taxi driver, and later on he was a driver in a company. His

2 ulcer had perforated, he bled, he was not helped, and he died.

3 Q. Witness, you have already mentioned that you were interrogated,

4 and you said that Mr. Koprivica interrogated you. What did he want to

5 know from you? Were you accused of anything particular?

6 A. Well, he didn't really interrogate me. He only wrote down on a

7 piece of paper and said that I would be out in no time, that he would

8 vouch for me, that everybody knew who I was and what I was, so that I did

9 not have any dialogue with him then.

10 Q. Was this the only time that you were interrogated or on other

11 occasions as well?

12 A. By officials, by official investigators, except that Savo Todovic

13 came and asked questions, who will smuggle cigarettes to me, who gets

14 other things there, and things like that. But as the officials, Koprivica

15 or others, Starovic and others, no.

16 Q. While you were interrogated by Mr. Koprivica, could you see if

17 other detainees were interrogated as well at the same time?

18 A. Yes. We could see that even before I went to see Mr. Koprivica,

19 that others were going for interrogation. Every detainee had to go for

20 interrogation in the beginning at the time when they started distributing

21 us around rooms.

22 Q. And these interrogators, were they policemen or soldiers?

23 A. I know that Koprivica had already worked as an investigator for

24 the police, and Vladicic too. Vladicic, I know about him from before, and

25 Koprivica; this is, they work for the police.

Page 1620

1 Q. When you, for instance, were interrogated, was Mr. Koprivica

2 wearing a military uniform or just civilian clothes or a police uniform?

3 A. When he interviewed me, when he interrogated me, he was in

4 civilian clothes.

5 Q. And did you have to sign a written statement?

6 A. Yes. I signed and my father did.

7 Q. Do you recall in which capacity Mr. Koprivica interrogated you, as

8 a military police officer or a police officer? Could you make that out

9 from the written statement? Could you see, for instance, what it said on

10 the header?

11 A. All I remember is the following: "I personally guarantee that

12 so-and-so," my name, "has never caused any trouble and that I know his

13 father personally, and I personally," that is, he guaranteed.

14 As I said, we did not really have any conversation. He never

15 interrogated me.

16 Q. You have already mentioned that Savo Todovic kicked you and struck

17 you once, that he and Stefanovic hit you with a rifle. This

18 Mr. Stefanovic, was he a guard, a guard of the KP Dom?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were these the only occasions where you were hit or beaten, or

21 were you beaten on other occasions as well?

22 A. I told you before, when I was in solitary confinement, but that

23 was kicking me. He did not hit me in the face or as when Milutinovic

24 slapped me in the face, no.

25 Q. This incident with Milutinovic, when did he slap you?

Page 1621

1 A. Milutinovic was another guard, and he slapped me when I was in

2 solitary confinement and spent two nights there. As he was taking me out

3 of that cell, that is when he did it.

4 Q. Did you see other prisoners being beaten?

5 A. On one occasion, I watched a senior guard, Slobodan, Boban was his

6 nickname and I think his last name was Pejic or Pejcic -- Pejic, rather, I

7 think. As we were returning from the canteen to our rooms, escorted by

8 the guard, on one occasion as we were entering the building, then he

9 called out, "Celik --" I think he said Celik, yes, he did, Celik, and a

10 man came down the stairs again and this one started hitting him with a

11 baton and telling him, "Why are you laughing? Is that a way to look at

12 me? How dare you look at me like that. How dare you laugh," and he

13 struck him two or three times like this with a baton.

14 Q. Were such beatings a common occurrence in the KP Dom?

15 A. We could hear it, and that was also in the beginning, that is,

16 April, May, and the first half of June. Perhaps June. From the room in

17 which we were kept, we could hear both blows and screams from many of

18 those who had been taken to the administrative building. I could hear

19 those sounds and I think they came from that direction. Many did not

20 return from those beatings on a number of occasions, and those things

21 usually happened at night. It was quiet so that one could hear very

22 well.

23 Q. You mentioned the months from April to June. Are you sure about

24 the months, or could it also have been somewhat later?

25 A. Well, June, throughout June perhaps. I can't really -- believe

Page 1622

1 me, I can't really remember. But it went on. But I think that May, June,

2 that is the time when there was the largest number of people -- the

3 largest number of people were taken away and beaten. I can't really

4 remember.

5 But I know when they took away a colleague who sat next to me on

6 the bed, and whenever the door opens, we wait -- as you go into the

7 compound, then we try to see whether they will head for this entrance or

8 that entrance.

9 Once a senior guard came; I think it was Stefanovic again. He

10 started upstairs and we wanted to see which room he would open, and we

11 were all there waiting for the door -- to see which door he would open.

12 So once the door to our room was open, then we waited to see whom he would

13 call out. They called out Zulfo Veiz, who, at that time, was sitting next

14 to me. I had a black vest which a guard had brought my father -- my

15 father had left to me, so he left it to me. They took Zulfo away, after I

16 gave him this black vest, and then we could hear the blows on that vest.

17 He did not let a sound out. But the irony was that I was happy when they

18 took him rather than me away. And there were many such ...

19 Q. How did that make you feel? You felt you were lucky that they

20 took him and not you. How did that make you feel?

21 A. Well, it was just a fleeting moment. But at that moment, I felt

22 happy, I felt joy. After that I didn't, of course.

23 Q. When you said the guards came to call out detainees, did they have

24 any piece of paper or even a written or typed list from which they called

25 out detainees?

Page 1623

1 A. I remember that. There was a small green piece of paper, small

2 piece of green paper that Stefanovic had, and that is what they used to do

3 when they take somebody away and then bring him back again with a similar

4 piece of paper. But this small paper always came from the administrative

5 building; that is, a guard would always come from the administrative

6 building with such a piece of paper.

7 Q. You have already mentioned that you heard the sounds of beating

8 and screaming. Could you make out from which part of the administration

9 building these sounds came from?

10 A. From that same part which I indicated when I showed you where it

11 was that Mr. Krnojelac saw me, received me.

12 Q. Could you ever hear from the voices you heard who was beating a

13 detainee? Did you ever hear something so specific that you could be sure

14 who was beating?

15 A. I'm 100 per cent sure about one particular case; about others,

16 no. But on that one occasion, I heard a voice which I knew very well and

17 which I'd often heard before. It was the voice of Rajko Cicmil, and I

18 believe he died meanwhile. I did see him once in the compound, once in a

19 uniform with an officer bag and pistol, and he had a cap. Not the

20 officer's cap but a different kind of cap. I knew him because while I

21 worked for a different organisation, he was my assistant for three years.

22 Q. This Rajko Cicmil, was he a guard or was he a soldier?

23 A. Military, he had a military uniform, same as Mr. Krnojelac when I

24 saw him on that occasion, the first time.

25 Q. What did you hear him say or shout?

Page 1624

1 A. He said, "Confess. Own up. Own up better or we'll kill you,"

2 shouted at him, and that was it. "Own up. Tell us where it is or --"

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure.

4 A. "-- we'll kill you." That is what stuck in my memory.


6 Q. Could you hear whom he was beating? Did you hear from the answers

7 or from the voices who was actually the victim of Mr. Cicmil?

8 A. The victim could only moan and cry for help, and not very

9 distinctly. Obviously, it must have been painful. His cries, his

10 screams, you can't really distinguish -- I mean, of course you

11 distinguish, you know what a scream is, you know what a cry of pain is, of

12 course you do, but ...

13 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you better have a look at the

14 transcript. You'll see a passage there at line 18 -- 17 where the

15 interpreters had some difficulty in understanding precisely what it was

16 the witness was saying.


18 Q. Witness, you have mentioned what you heard Mr. Cicmil shout, and

19 we have in the transcript -- we lack a part. It says, "Own up. Tell us

20 where it is or," and then the interpreters have lost you. What did you

21 hear Mr. Cicmil shout?

22 A. That is what he said, "You'd better own up where they are or else

23 we'll kill you." "Better tell us where they are or else we'll kill you."

24 Q. Yes, that clarifies the matter.

25 You have already started to tell us about specific victims. Now I

Page 1625












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1626

1 can't see the transcript but I think you spoke about Zulfo Veiz, or am I

2 mistaken? I can't see that now. Yes, I think you have already mentioned

3 Zulfo Veiz, who was with you in your room, yes?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's Schedule C, number 29, and

5 also in the indictment, it's 5.27, the incident.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


8 Q. Witness, how often was Mr. Veiz -- Zulfo Veiz taken out? Was it

9 only on this one occasion, or was he taken out and returned?

10 A. Zulfo was taken out on several occasions and brought back. But

11 then once when he was taken away, he did not return again.

12 Q. When you saw him return, what did he look like? Could you see any

13 injuries on him?

14 A. No, I did not see any injuries. No. He told us then why he had

15 been called out. Zulfo Veiz used to work for the police before the war,

16 and it was his fellow policemen who had come and were telling Zulfo's wife

17 where he was and what his children were doing, and that is what Zulfo told

18 us. He did not -- at least we couldn't see any injuries, any

19 aftereffects.

20 Q. Did he tell you that he was beaten or did he keep quiet?

21 A. I just said, he told us -- well, on at least one occasion he told

22 me, not only me but everybody who was sitting around us, that his

23 colleague had come to tell him, as I have told you, about his family.

24 Q. Do you recall any other specific person that you remember that was

25 taken out in this manner and was beaten or even disappeared?

Page 1627

1 A. I remember those who were with me when we were arrested. And when

2 we were arrested, I did not see it then because at that time I did not

3 know that we were arrested by Gojko Jokanovic. I didn't know his name

4 then; I learned it later. So that Halim Konjo, he had been with me at my

5 sister's. Uzunovic was another who arrived with me and never returned

6 then.

7 Q. Let me finish one after the other. You said Halim Konjo. What

8 can you tell us about him? Was he taken out once or on several

9 occasions? Did you see him being beaten?

10 A. Halim had been taken out even while we were at Brod, and he was

11 with me at Brod too. They had taken all his money. He was quite

12 well-off. They took all his money, and that is what happened while we

13 were at Brod. Then they took him - at least that's what he told me - they

14 took him to the army club in the town, that that is where they took him,

15 but at that time there was a military or perhaps paramilitary police, I

16 don't know, and that they also took him there and beat him. His nickname

17 was Spona. Selimovic, I believe, was his last name, Spona, and they took

18 him there together.

19 Q. I would like you to tell us what happened to these persons in the

20 KP Dom, not so much before they arrived there but in the KP Dom.

21 Was Mr. Halim Konjo beaten while in the KP Dom?

22 A. We did not share the same room, but once he left, he never came

23 back, Halim, so that I cannot tell you anything else.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This Konjo Halim, that's C13. And he also

25 mentioned B33.

Page 1628

1 Q. Do you know or can you tell us what happened to Halid Konjo while

2 in the KP Dom? Not before.

3 A. Halid Konjo. We lived there until exchange, and then he was taken

4 for exchange and he did not come back. At least that is what we were

5 told, that people who were being taken for exchange, unfortunately many of

6 those who were taken for exchange are missing. But I do think that he was

7 sent to pick plums or something. It was September or October, and he did

8 not come back again.

9 Q. You mentioned already a detainee with the name Enes Uzunovic.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours this is Schedule C26, and also

11 the incident 5.29.

12 Q. What about Enes Uzunovic in the KP Dom? Was he taken out for

13 beatings? Did you see him there?

14 A. Yes, I did see Uzunovic. He was badly beaten. After what I told

15 you about that salt storage, that is how he looked too. He was all black

16 and blue. And I saw him then on the stairs. He could not walk. That was

17 the last time I saw him. That was, I think, sometime in late May. That

18 is Uzunovic.

19 Q. You said you saw him on the stairs. What does that mean? You saw

20 him return from the administration building, on the staircase, or what do

21 you mean?

22 A. From the administrative building --

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The witness

24 did not say where he was coming back from. This is a leading question,

25 whether he was returning from the administrative building. He only said

Page 1629

1 he saw him on the stairs, and the next question was whether he saw him on

2 the stairs as he was returning from the administrative building. That is

3 a leading question. So presumably the question should be whether the

4 witness saw him, where he was coming back from, and what stairs.

5 JUDGE HUNT: I think that unless you heard something that the

6 translators didn't hear, there is no reference to the administrative

7 building there in the transcript, so you should ask him that question

8 again. The damage may well have been done, but I think you should ask it

9 again.


11 Q. Witness, you mentioned that you saw him all black and blue, and

12 you saw him on the stairs. Which stairs and where was he coming from?

13 A. Sorry. Stairs -- it is from that small garden. There are a

14 couple of stairs, and this is right next to the administrative building.

15 Ten metres -- no, perhaps 5 metres from the administrative building there

16 is a slightly raised platform and there were stairs, and that is where one

17 could see him very well on that corner. He simply was not able to walk

18 any more.

19 Q. Did you see where he was coming from?

20 A. No, I did not see that. I saw him sitting down. But I did see

21 people go through the door -- come out of the door, that is, he was

22 pushed. The door opened, that is, that entrance into the administrative

23 building. Mandzo, I think his name was, and I believe he was a male -- a

24 lab assistant. I saw him. He was practically down on his knees and hands

25 because he could not walk. They must have beaten them on the soles of his

Page 1630

1 feet. And he once went through there and he barely made it.

2 Q. But this is Mandzo that you mentioned you saw coming from the

3 administration building?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But the other one, this person we spoke about before, you did only

6 see him on the stairs and you do not know where he came from. Did you

7 see --

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Did you see him -- before you saw him on the stairs in this bad

10 condition, did you see him go somewhere before that? Did you see him

11 being led somewhere?

12 A. No. No.

13 Q. Whom else do you recall belonging to this group of people who

14 disappeared in this time period that you mentioned?

15 A. I recall Matovic, a Croat, male nurse; Nail Hodzic; Nurko Nisic;

16 and, yes, other people too. Some I knew by sight and some I knew better.

17 Q. You mentioned Nail Hodzic. That is number C10. What did you see

18 happened to Nail Hodzic?

19 A. I did not see anything. I only saw him being taken away, that is,

20 when he went out of the room.

21 Q. And the Croat Matovic that you mentioned, what did you see?

22 A. Yes, him too. He did not come back again.

23 Q. And Nurko Nisic. You mentioned Nurko Nisic.

24 A. Nurko I did see as he was coming back from the administrative

25 building. He had some sports clothes on him, some sweatsuits or

Page 1631

1 something, and he was beaten up. He walked with difficulty, and he went

2 by, but where he went -- and later on I heard that he was taken to

3 solitary confinement and then out of there, taken again somewhere, but I

4 don't know where.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, that is C29 and the incident

6 5.27.

7 JUDGE HUNT: That may be enough. There are a couple of matters I

8 wanted to raise with you before we adjourn.


10 JUDGE HUNT: Now that the Defence has filed a supplement to their

11 motion, you may want to deal with that. Could you deal with it overnight

12 so that we've got the opportunity tomorrow to deal with it finally?

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but actually, we are also prepared to do

14 that now, but whatever you prefer.

15 JUDGE HUNT: I think the translators have had a pretty hard day

16 today, but if you'd like to state what your attitude is. Do you still

17 object to the medical examination?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry, I didn't understand what you said.

19 JUDGE HUNT: This is the motion that the Defence has put on to

20 have their client examined, and you took the point, which was a good one,

21 that they had never identified the issue to which the examination would be

22 relevant. They've now done so. The question is: Do you still object to

23 the appointment of an examiner? If you don't, do you want your own

24 examiner appointed as well?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Actually, we want to oppose it in the way as

Page 1632

1 it stands for the moment, because what they are actually requesting from

2 you is to order a very specific and detailed examination, even giving the

3 scope of the examination, and I think this has to be clarified because --

4 JUDGE HUNT: Look, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I don't want to have to

5 debate it here. If you want to put this in writing, then they can deal

6 with it in writing in reply or they may be able to deal with it in the

7 morning orally, but I think it's not the time to be going into detail

8 about it. If you oppose it, let's see why you oppose it.

9 The other matter was have you prepared that summons for the

10 witness that both parties want to have brought in?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It is being prepared at the moment. It will

12 be presented to you tomorrow.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Very well then. We will --

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn now until 9.30 in the morning, but

16 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, would you please discuss your problems about this

17 medical examination with counsel for the defendant so we can try and get

18 some agreement.

19 The Trial Chamber is minded to grant any such application provided

20 there is a sufficient identification of an issue. If you are concerned

21 about the examination which is sought, my own view -- I haven't discussed

22 this with my colleagues, but my own view is it's better to have more than

23 less. If you'll remember, there was a very similar examination made in

24 the last trial. The result of it was quite extraordinary in many ways,

25 but, nevertheless, it saved having to have more than one.

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1 So I suggest that you should not take too great an issue about

2 that. If you want your own doctor to examine the defendant, that's a

3 matter which the Defence counsel will have to consider, but we would

4 certainly look favourably upon such an application. It can't be done only

5 one way, in other words, if it's going to be a Tribunal examiner.

6 All right. 9.30 in the morning.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.04 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of

9 January, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.