Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2756

1 Monday, 12 February 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor

7 versus Milorad Krnojelac.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Now, there are a few things we can sort out before we

9 start the evidence this morning. First, there is some problem about the

10 protective measures, I gather, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. The next witness, the

12 witness 71, has obviously misunderstood the possibilities and --

13 JUDGE HUNT: I can understand that there could be mistakes, but we

14 seem to be getting an awful lot of them. Who is responsible for the

15 protective measures applications? Is it the investigators or is it the

16 team?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's the investigators and the language

18 assistants who always talk with the witnesses, but because of the language

19 issue, there may be problems in this regard. That caused this witness to

20 misunderstand the situation and he thought he could only ask image

21 distortion or pseudonym and not both together, and so that is how the

22 confusion started here.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, have you got any problem with adding the

24 pseudonym, by which we've known him anyway all through the case?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. We do not have any

Page 2757

1 objections, and I really see not much purpose in saying it because

2 requests for applications for protection always arrive at the very last

3 moment, so that --

4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, thank you. Now, the next matter is this --

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there is just another -- I'm

6 very embarrassed now, but it's another witness who also asked in the last

7 minute protective measures, and that is the Witness 15, who comes next.

8 This witness did not request any protective measures at all and now he

9 requests image alteration because he has property in Foca and intends to

10 go there and take care of the matter in Foca, and he's concerned that if

11 his face is published, he may be placed under some risk from individuals

12 with nationalistic resentments. And he also requested it only now during

13 the conference here with the witness.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, he seeks only facial distortion?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, only facial distortion.

16 JUDGE HUNT: You say he's the next witness. He's the third

17 witness in the list.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. It's number 15, witness number 15.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, Mr. Bakrac, you will complain, I

20 know, and you will have justification for complaining about it being late,

21 but what about the merits?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Nothing, Your Honour, nothing new.

23 All witnesses seem to be protected, either their faces or their names.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. In relation to FWS-71, we will

25 amend the order for protective measures to add that he shall use the

Page 2758

1 pseudonym FWS-71. For FWS-15, we will order protective measures that his

2 face -- he be given facial distortion. It always sounds a little grim.

3 Now, the next matter is this videolink. We have now got your

4 additional material, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. This is for the witness that

5 both sides want called. Has there been anything further that you want to

6 add?

7 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I'll handle this matter.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, Ms. Kuo.

9 MS. KUO: That's fine, Your Honour. There's nothing to add to

10 what we filed.

11 JUDGE HUNT: What's your attitude about that one, Mr. Bakrac?

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. If I

13 understand, it's (redacted) RJ. Is that him?


15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The Defence agreed with the

16 examination of this witness and we also intended to call him. But on the

17 basis of the information that we received in the motion and after talking

18 to the accused, we realised - and from what we received from the

19 Prosecutor - we understand that the doctor is worried about this witness'

20 testimony - that is, testimony as such, not coming here to The Hague and

21 appearing before the Chamber or by videolink but the testimony

22 itself - because it will bring back memories of that time, and this might

23 impair his health. That is why we are not insisting to call the witness.

24 And we repeat: Yes, the Defence would like to have that witness

25 examined. We spoke to the accused. The accused knows the witness. They

Page 2759

1 worked together. But from what we were told by the Prosecutor, we

2 concluded that the fact of testimony itself might prejudice his health,

3 and that is why we decided to insist on examining this witness, and that

4 includes both the protection that was requested and the videolink

5 conference. We do not object against the videolink. With regard to the

6 videolink, we have our principled attitude that you know about, but in

7 view of the state of the witness' health and that the fact of testimony

8 could prejudice his health further, we think that this witness should not

9 be called.

10 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that I understand the stand you take.

11 What the Prosecution is seeking is to have him give evidence, but by way

12 of videolink and in a closed Court, so that when his evidence is being

13 brought to the Tribunal by way of videolink it will be a closed Court here

14 and nobody else will see it. The witness himself has said that he wants

15 to give evidence, but apparently he seems to understand that if he's

16 allowed to give it in his hometown, his health should not suffer as much

17 as it would if he had travelled. Now, when you say you don't want him

18 called, do you mean you don't want him called here or you don't want him

19 to give evidence at all?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we understand and we do

21 not have any objections against videolink testimonies or in a closed

22 session, but from what we received from the Prosecution, the Defence and

23 the accused understand that the testimony as such, in whatever form, by

24 videolink or his appearance before the Court, might affect his health.

25 That is how we understood what the Prosecution gave us and from their

Page 2760

1 application to the Chamber. And we are concerned about this. We do not

2 want his testimony to affect his health, and that is why the Defence does

3 not insist on examining this witness; that is, it doesn't really matter

4 whether the witness will be coming here or testifying by videolink. From

5 what we have received from the Prosecution, we understood that

6 any -- whatever form his testimony took, it could nevertheless affect his

7 health.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I think I'll have to ask you for a specific answer to

9 yes or no. Are you objecting to his evidence being received by the

10 Tribunal in any way?

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, we do not object against his

12 testimony in whatever form, but we believe we were duty-bound because the

13 order said that the Defence was requesting the testimony of this witness.

14 The Defence does not insist anymore on calling this witness.

15 JUDGE HUNT: All right. We'll note that you no longer insist, but

16 you don't object to the videolink or to the closed Court; is that right?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is right, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. All right. Well, then the

19 Trial Chamber will make the order sought in the motion.

20 When is it likely -- is it going to be today that we have this

21 witness? It's again you, Ms. Kuo.

22 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. In discussions with the technical

23 people, we understand they need two weeks, so this witness will probably

24 have to -- we would ask that the summons be altered so the date is

25 changed, but we'll arrange a date and file an additional motion.

Page 2761

1 JUDGE HUNT: We'll make the order without a date and make it for a

2 date to be fixed.

3 MS. KUO: Thank you.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Now, is that all the housekeeping matters we

5 have to deal with?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: From the Prosecution side, yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Is there anything that you want to raise,

8 Mr. Bakrac? You have promised us a few things: Photographs from the

9 various rooms; you are to state whether the materials which are presently

10 identified as P55/2 may be admitted into evidence; and you were going to

11 tell us where the Defence has taken issue with the Prosecution case that

12 the Muslim prisoners received less food than the Serb prisoners. So there

13 are three things there.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as regards the

15 photographs, we went to the place and we've brought the photographs and

16 are waiting -- and then had them developed. However, the shots of some

17 rooms have failed, so we'll have to do that again.

18 But another matter, and that is in Room 20 [as interpreted], what

19 we had mostly challenged here, that was Room 23 and view from there, and I

20 have these photographs, but the Defence will keep them and will show them

21 to witnesses when the matter arises of what the witness could see from

22 that room and what he couldn't. If I'm wrong, if that is not how things

23 should be, then I will produce the photographs and show them.

24 As for Exhibit 55/2 --

25 JUDGE HUNT: Let's deal with them one at a time. You have an

Page 2762

1 obligation under the Rules to put those photographs to any witness the

2 Prosecution calls who says that they can see something on the bridge, so

3 that you would have to put it to the witnesses, whoever is called, who

4 give that evidence. It may be the Prosecution will want to recall some

5 witnesses - I don't know - once they've seen the photographs. But that's

6 your obligation. If you think that it may save time, it would be

7 perfectly appropriate for you to show the photographs to the Prosecution.

8 You're not obliged to. But certainly the first witness that now is called

9 who gives evidence of what they saw in relation to the bridge from

10 somewhere on the top floor of the KP Dom, then you are obliged to show

11 them these photographs so they can deal with them.

12 Now, the second matter, P55/2.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe I said so. I

14 have nothing as regards photographs. We can show them to the Prosecutor,

15 we can show them to the Chamber, and whichever witness tackles the matter,

16 we shall be showing them.

17 As for the second matter, we do not object against the admission

18 of Exhibit P55/2.

19 JUDGE HUNT: The next matter is where the Defence has taken issue

20 with the Prosecution case that the Muslim prisoners received less food

21 than the Serb prisoners.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies but the

23 Defence was concerned with presenting its case when it starts, presents

24 without any delays, so that we seized the opportunity given us by this

25 break to go to the ground, speak to witnesses, see which one of them --

Page 2763












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2764

1 which ones of them are seeking protective measures and whatnot, and we

2 spent all the time on the ground. But until we establish if this should

3 be challenged, the Defence will, at its own risk, in the course of this

4 week, check once again the transcripts, from the first to the last

5 witness, and if we come across a situation where this is challenged, then

6 we shall approach the bench, the Court, with your permission.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, it's probably a very long time since I

8 was counsel appearing in a case, but I have never forgotten the amount of

9 work which counsel has to do in order to keep up with the trial, so I

10 understand completely myself the problems you've had in seeing your

11 witnesses, and I would not expect you to do this task or undertake this

12 task whilst you're getting ready to cross-examine witnesses during the

13 week. But I think that with Friday off and the weekend off, by next

14 Monday we must have those transcript references because we are trying

15 desperately to keep the issues which are -- the matters which are in issue

16 identified, and it's sometimes a little hard. So we will give you until

17 next Monday for that.

18 Is there anything else you want to raise now that we are back at

19 work? When I say "back at work," back at work on this case.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much for

21 your understanding. Rest assured we shall do it by next week. We do not

22 have any other matter.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. Now, we will have to have the

24 blinds lowered to bring the witness in.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but Your Honours, I think there is one

Page 2765

1 matter open still and I thought it would be addressed but it was not.

2 When we heard the evidence of Ms. Manas, we talked about the rubble in

3 front of the KP Dom being part of the Aladza mosque and the defence

4 counsels wanted to check if this is conceded or if we need to have a

5 historian here to testify. And I thought this was also sought out last

6 week by Defence counsel. That is at least my understanding.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I confess I had overlooked that because I had put

8 those photographs away in the exhibit folder instead of my court folder.

9 Have you discussed this matter, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Before the break we discussed it, and he said

11 he would go to Foca and find out and give his opinion on this today.

12 JUDGE HUNT: And you have not had any response directly from him?

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Bakrac, what about the rubble?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I expected the OTP to

16 raise the matter and that is why I did not bring it up. Yes, my learned

17 friend is quite correct. We spent the whole break on the ground going

18 into all these matters, and we do not challenge, that is we do not have

19 any -- we are not objecting against admitting this documentation as

20 evidence and confirming that these are indeed the remains of the Aladza

21 mosque.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I was

24 waiting for this to be interpreted but since we are talking about various

25 issues, and my learned friend has reminded me, we also talked about a

Page 2766

1 witness for whom -- the witness is 05. That witness is very important for

2 the Defence and it was mentioned that we would find a way to have him

3 testify, either by videolink or in some other way. We discussed it with

4 the OTP before the 15th of January. That is at the beginning of the last

5 session, which began on the 15th of January. We still have not heard from

6 the OTP what they think about the testimony of Witness 05.

7 If you remember, the Prosecution applied for the introduction of

8 documents through this witness but these documents were introduced or

9 presented through another witness, and when I objected, you said, Your

10 Honour, that those documents had nothing to do with Witness 05 and

11 therefore could not serve as exhibits along with Witness 05, and we still

12 have not heard from the Prosecution but we insist on calling Witness 05,

13 because in his statement, he said something which is of great relevance

14 for the solution of the case.

15 JUDGE HUNT: I won't deny that I said something about documents

16 but I have absolutely no recollection. I remember there was a discussion

17 about the difficulties in getting FWS-05. Well, what is the situation of

18 05, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I met the witness recently and he is in a

20 very bad shape so he will not -- we will not go for him the videolink

21 testimony. We would rather drop the witness. But I think we should

22 discuss it further with the Defence counsel if we have other ways to get

23 his testimony in. We were actually thinking about a 92 bis proceedings.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that I know what 92 bis is. I was

25 thinking of a -- depositions are 71, aren't they?

Page 2767

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. We were actually thinking of putting in

2 his statement as he gave, as a document, like a 94 bis.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, 94, yes, one of the new ones.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. That's what we were thinking. But the

5 problem is it's, of course, not in the form that it needs to be, but 94

6 bis (C) allows for putting in other statements.

7 JUDGE HUNT: But 92 bis -- it is 92 bis, you are right, but there,

8 of course, it would be subject to cross-examination if the Defence

9 requests it and we order it.


11 JUDGE HUNT: So it may not cure the problem. But if there is some

12 document that can be proved only through this witness, there may be some

13 agreement about that.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We were actually thinking about using 92 bis

15 (C), that is a written statement not in a form as prescribed by paragraph

16 B may be admissible but, however, the threshold for using, let's say, an

17 ICTY statement is quite high. It says: Subsequently died or no longer

18 with reasonable diligence be traced or by reason of bodily or mental

19 conditions unable to testify orally.

20 JUDGE HUNT: There is also a very important part of it, that the

21 Trial Chamber must be satisfied that the circumstances in which the

22 statement was made and recorded, there are satisfactory indicia of its

23 reliability.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, and we therefore thought we

25 rather drop the witness altogether, including the documents that he could

Page 2768

1 provide.

2 JUDGE HUNT: And that, too is subject to (E), as I understand it,

3 that we may do so only if the witness appears for cross-examination if we

4 are satisfied that it is necessary.


6 JUDGE HUNT: So you have a number of things, but may we leave that

7 one perhaps for counsel to discuss?


9 JUDGE HUNT: It's not very convenient to be dealing with it in

10 court, and we will come back to that. I don't remember which document it

11 was that was the problem.

12 Well, then, the document which is presently marked for

13 identification P55/2 will be Exhibit P55/2.

14 Were those photographs that we were given of the rubble admitted

15 into evidence or were they merely given a number?

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: They were admitted into evidence. It was

17 just kept open what relevance they had.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I see. Right. Thank you very much. All right.

19 Well, the matter that is yet to be determined is that relating to FWS-05.

20 Can we have the witness now?

21 The pseudonyms document headed FWS-71 will be Exhibit P426 and it

22 will be under seal.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration in the

25 document which has been handed to you, sir?

Page 2769

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, sir. And we apologise for having kept you

4 waiting whilst we were dealing with some other matters.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you Your Honour.

9 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

10 Q. Good morning, witness.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. Witness, you have in front of you a sheet of paper with the number

13 71, FWS-71 on it, yes?

14 A. Yes, yes, I have that.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour I apologise for

16 interrupting my learned colleague but the witness just took out yet

17 another piece of paper where it says something, and the Defence doesn't

18 know what this is.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Do you know what it is, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness had some notes for his memory, to

21 help his memory, but I would rather think he should put them away. I

22 don't think that he would need them now, and if the matter arises we could

23 come back to what he has pulled out.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Very well, then.

25 A. Please, I would like to put a question. Notes can be made

Page 2770

1 available to the opposing party as well. There is nothing secretive in

2 them.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. If you feel that you need to refer

4 to the notes, then a copy will have to be given to the Defence, but I

5 suggest you put them away for the moment. If you need to use them, by all

6 means, say so.

7 Before you start Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I would like some assistance

8 from the booth. My laptop is not operating.

9 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you get underway.

10 Q. Witness, your number 71 is your pseudonym. You were granted your

11 request for a pseudonym. When you look at the sheet in front of you,

12 there is a name under the number 71. Is it your name?

13 A. Yes, that's my name.

14 Q. And the date next to the name, is it your birth date?

15 A. Yes. The date is accurate.

16 Q. And on this sheet you also find a lot of other names and pseudonym

17 numbers, so in case you want to refer to these witnesses, please say the

18 number and not the name.

19 Witness, where were you born?

20 A. I was born in Danicici, in the municipality of Foca.

21 Q. What is your ethnicity?

22 A. Muslim.

23 Q. Are you married?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you have children?

Page 2771












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Page 2772

1 A. Yes. Two.

2 Q. Where did you live before the war?

3 A. I lived in Foca.

4 Q. In which part of the town?

5 A. The centre of town, (redacted)

6 Q. Was it a house or did you live in an apartment building?

7 A. It was an apartment building.

8 Q. What profession do you have?

9 A. (redacted).

10 Q. Where did you work before the war? And please do not tell us your

11 exact position, just your office.

12 A. I worked in the employment office of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the

13 Foca office.

14 Q. In your work, did you get to know many citizens of Foca?

15 A. My job made it possible for me to meet quite a few citizens of

16 Foca, and I did know quite a few citizens.

17 Q. And when you say "quite a few," what do you mean? What does that

18 mean?

19 A. Well, I can give you a very approximate percentage, but let's say

20 that I knew 75 to 80 per cent of the population of the town.

21 Q. Were you a member of any of the newly formed political parties?

22 A. No, I was not.

23 Q. Were you involved in politics before the war?

24 A. The former League of Communists, yes.

25 Q. But in the years 1991, 1992, were you involved in politics?

Page 2773

1 A. No.

2 Q. When the war broke out in Foca, did you participate in the

3 fighting?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. Did you have a weapon?

6 A. No.

7 Q. When the war started, where were you?

8 A. I was in the apartment.

9 Q. And did you leave Foca after the --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When did you leave?

12 A. On the 12th of April, 1992.

13 Q. Why did you leave?

14 A. Because that part of town had been free of war danger.

15 Q. Did anyone suggest to you to leave the town?

16 A. Yes. Suggested and helped.

17 Q. Yes. And without saying the name, who was that, from ethnicity?

18 A. A Serb, my next-door neighbour.

19 Q. And why did he suggest to you to leave?

20 A. Because we were together in premises where it became obvious that

21 the situation was such that nobody could guarantee anybody's life, and the

22 Serbs had already taken a part of town; actually, that part of town where

23 I lived.

24 Q. Did this person help you out of Foca?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2774

1 Q. Did you need this help of a Serb neighbour or could you have gone

2 without any help?

3 A. It was absolutely necessary, because I had no other way out.

4 Q. Why was it necessary for -- was it necessary for anybody or was it

5 necessary for Muslims to get help by their Serbian neighbours?

6 A. Absolutely all Muslims required the help of their Serb neighbours,

7 those who happened to be in that part of town that was falling at the time

8 of the fall of Foca.

9 Q. Why, and what kind of help?

10 A. Help in terms of getting out there and saving your life, because

11 your life was jeopardised. The soldiers were already in town, of course,

12 with rifles in their hands. What else could you expect but death?

13 Q. Where did you go?

14 A. I went to Montenegro.

15 Q. Were you arrested while you were in Montenegro?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When?

18 A. On the 21st of May, 1992.

19 Q. What time of the day did it happen?

20 A. In the morning, around 8.00.

21 Q. And where were you at that time?

22 A. I was asleep in a room at the place of this man where I was

23 staying.

24 Q. And in what town in Montenegro were you?

25 A. The town of Bar, the neighbourhood of Pecurice.

Page 2775

1 Q. Who arrested you?

2 A. The police of the Bar MUP.

3 Q. And what happened on that morning? How did this happen, this

4 arrest?

5 A. A police patrol came, three or four policemen. They came in a

6 police vehicle. One of them came into the room where we were asleep and

7 he called out my name, as well as the name of two of my neighbours who

8 were staying there with me.

9 Q. The two neighbours, who were they? Can you tell us the names and

10 their ethnicity?

11 A. Yes. (redacted). They're also Muslims.

12 Q. Were they also from Foca?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. These policemen, did they tell you why you were arrested?

15 A. We were just told that we would be taken for interrogation.

16 Q. Were you illegally in Montenegro, or do you know why you were

17 taken for interrogation?

18 A. The first day I arrived in Montenegro, I had to register with the

19 police authorities and the Red Cross.

20 Q. How was the atmosphere towards Muslims in Bar? The local

21 population, how did they treat you?

22 A. During the first ten days one couldn't notice anything. However,

23 on one occasion when I was at the Red Cross, I came for some aid. One

24 could feel certain provocations.

25 Q. What kind of provocations and why were there provocations?

Page 2776

1 A. Well, first by the employees of the Red Cross, those of Serb

2 ethnicity.

3 Q. Did they accuse you of anything? Did they -- why were there these

4 resentments? What caused it?

5 A. Well, actually, they kept saying to us, "This is not an

6 institution for you. This is for our Serb brothers."

7 Q. Where were you taken when you were arrested? To which place?

8 A. We were taken to the police station in Bar.

9 Q. Besides the three of you that you mentioned, were there other

10 persons arrested and taken to the police station in Bar?

11 A. Yes. The police station in Bar, in a big room there, I found

12 Kubat Sefko and Redzo Sacir tied to chairs.

13 Q. Who were they?

14 A. They were citizens of Foca, Muslims.

15 Q. Did you see any officials from Foca in the police station in Bar?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who?

18 A. Miodrag Stevanovic, nicknamed Mico.

19 Q. Did you know him from before?

20 A. Yes. Sorry, nicknamed Sumar. Yes, I knew him from before.

21 Q. What was he doing in Bar, in the police station?

22 A. He was in charge of arresting people all over Montenegro.

23 Q. Did you know that at that time?

24 A. Well, I knew on that day, when I was brought to the police

25 station, because I saw him there.

Page 2777

1 Q. But his authority to arrest people all over Montenegro, did you

2 know that already at that time or did you learn that later on?

3 A. Later, absolutely. That's when I found out.

4 Q. And how did you find out?

5 A. I found out later at the MUP in Herceg-Novi.

6 Q. How did you -- what did you find out there?

7 A. I found out from people who had also been arrested and who were

8 staying in the area of Herceg-Novi who were put up as refugees there.

9 Q. What was Mr. Stevanovic wearing when you saw him in Bar and later?

10 A. Well, of course he was wearing jeans and some kind of a leather

11 jacket.

12 Q. Did you speak with him in Bar at the police station? Did he

13 interrogate you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did anyone else from your -- from the other people arrested, from

16 the other Muslims, did anyone else speak with him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who, and what was said? Do you know?

19 A. Redzo Sacir and Cerimovic, Ibrahim had the opportunity of talking

20 to him.

21 Q. Did they tell you what he had said?

22 A. Redzo Sacir told us who was down there as soon as he came back and

23 why he had come.

24 Q. Yes. And why? What did Redzo learn from Mr. Stevanovic?

25 A. He introduced himself as a MUP inspector, as an inspector with the

Page 2778

1 Foca MUP. He said that he came with the intention of talking to people

2 from Foca who were in the territory of Montenegro.

3 Q. Did he say anything else?

4 A. I can't remember exactly. I think he did say something in

5 addition to that.

6 Q. Did he tell you why you were arrested or did he tell the other two

7 gentlemen you just mentioned?

8 A. Are you referring to the arrest in Montenegro, whether he told me

9 about it on the spot or some other occasion?

10 Q. Yes, on the spot. Did you learn on the spot why you were

11 arrested, either from him or from your colleagues?

12 A. Oh, yes. Yes. We were absolutely told that we were arrested,

13 because there was such propaganda over Radio Montenegro and the other

14 media that in Montenegro there were Green Berets that had appeared, the

15 so-called balijas.

16 Q. The Green Berets, what would that mean? What is that?

17 A. At that time I didn't know either. I guess these were some kind

18 of armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I don't know. A platoon, unit,

19 whatever you call it.

20 Q. Did you later meet Mr. Stevanovic in Foca?

21 A. Yes. I saw him within the compound of the KP Dom.

22 Q. And did he tell you anything on this occasion when you met him in

23 the KP Dom?

24 A. Yes. He said that he had to do what he did, it was sort of, "What

25 could I do about it?"

Page 2779












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Page 2780

1 Q. And did he tell you who ordered him to arrest you?

2 A. He didn't tell me that.

3 Q. Did you ever find out why you were arrested?

4 A. No, I never found out.

5 Q. Were you interrogated in Bar or later on, on your way, in Herceg

6 Novi?

7 A. No. I was never interrogated.

8 Q. In the police station in Bar, how many Muslims were taken there

9 and detained there?

10 A. Twenty-one.

11 Q. In Bar, already in Bar?

12 It's not enough to nod. You have to say yes or no, because we

13 have to have it on --

14 A. Yes, sorry, 21. I apologise.

15 Q. Were also Serbs arrested, Serbs from Foca?

16 A. That happened in Herceg Novi, when we were transferred from Bar to

17 Herceg Novi.

18 Q. How long did you stay in Bar in the police station?

19 A. From the 21st until the 23rd.

20 Q. You said that you were taken to the police station in Herceg

21 Novi. Were all Muslims kept in Bar taken to Herceg Novi?

22 A. No, no. I was taken to Herceg Novi on the 25th of May -- sorry,

23 the 24th of May. There was a group of 21 persons who were brought to the

24 police station in Bar. They singled out me, Kameric, Abdulah; Babic,

25 Ramiz; Kubat Sefko. That was the 21st.

Page 2781

1 Q. And why were you singled out? Does that mean the other Muslims

2 were released in Bar?

3 A. Yes. The others were set free. I don't know why they singled out

4 the persons whose names I just mentioned.

5 Q. How long did you stay in Herceg Novi?

6 A. From the 24th until the 25th, two days.

7 Q. And where were you taken from there?

8 A. At 3.00 on the 25th, we were put onto a bus together with 25

9 Serbs.

10 Q. How many Muslims were on the bus?

11 A. Twenty-one.

12 Q. Where did they come from? Were all of you from Foca or also from

13 other areas in Bosnia?

14 A. No. We were not all from Foca, there were also people from

15 Srebrenica, Gorazde, Sarajevo, Trebinje.

16 Q. And these 25 Serbs, where did they come from?

17 A. I personally did not know them. These were people who were from

18 the territory of Bosnia.

19 Q. And do you know why they were arrested and taken to Foca?

20 A. Well, they were arrested because they thought that they had fled

21 the war, and then they wanted to return them so that they would go to the

22 front line, of course.

23 Q. Who escorted you to the border? Who was on the bus and were there

24 any other vehicles accompanying you?

25 A. On the bus, there were two policemen from the Herceg Novi MUP.

Page 2782

1 Q. When you arrived at the border, did you carry on in this bus or

2 did you switch buses?

3 A. In the town of Pluzine we waited for an hour. A bus came from

4 Foca and then we switched buses.

5 Q. The bus from Foca, was it a civilian bus or a military vehicle?

6 A. A military bus would have been painted accordingly, I guess, so

7 this was a civilian bus but probably used by the military.

8 Q. Why do you think it was used by the military?

9 A. The driver who drove us wore a military uniform, absolutely.

10 Q. Who guarded you on the bus? Was there -- were there policemen or

11 soldiers on the bus with you, except for the driver?

12 A. There was one policeman.

13 Q. From Herceg Novi or from Foca?

14 A. No, from Foca, from Foca.

15 Q. Did you also have an escort in a different vehicle following or in

16 front of the bus?

17 A. After about 10 or 20 kilometres, a police vehicle met us and

18 turned around and then escorted us to the KP Dom.

19 Q. Those in the police car, could you see what they were wearing?

20 Were they police or military?

21 A. I could not discern it, believe me. It was night-time already.

22 At 7.30 or 8.00 in the evening, it's already dark. You can't see. And I

23 sat in the middle of the bus so I couldn't really see that.

24 Q. When did you arrive at the KP Dom, at what time?

25 A. I arrived in the KP Dom on the 25th of May at half past nine in

Page 2783

1 the evening.

2 Q. How long did you stay in the KP Dom?

3 A. I was there very long, 29 months and 16 days.

4 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, who received you?

5 A. We were received by a group, by a platoon, one might say, of

6 soldiers or rather uniformed individuals.

7 Q. And how many soldiers were there, about?

8 A. Well, eight, maybe ten, at least.

9 Q. Did you recognise any of them?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who?

12 A. I recognised Radomir Matovic.

13 Q. Who is he?

14 A. Radomir Matovic, if you want me to tell you, (redacted)

15 (redacted). That is number 1.

16 Q. Yes. And what was his job?

17 A. He worked in the kitchen of the KP Dom. That is, he was the

18 chief, the head of the kitchen.

19 Q. Was he there before the war?

20 A. Yes, before the war, he worked in the restaurant of the KP Dom.

21 Q. And during your detention in KP Dom, was he also working there?

22 A. Yes, all the time.

23 Q. And when you saw him on your arrival, was he in military uniform

24 or did he have his kitchen clothing?

25 A. He had a military uniform and had a rifle.

Page 2784

1 Q. And these other soldiers, did you recognise anyone else or would

2 you know which unit they were?

3 A. No. I really could not recognise those others.

4 Q. Were you mistreated or abused on your arrival?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us what happened?

7 A. As we were getting off the bus, they beat us one by one. They

8 were lining us up against the wall of the KP Dom and would strike each one

9 of us with the rifle butt, searching us and then kicking us and hitting

10 us. I mean, they hit us with whatever.

11 Q. Were you kicked and hit?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How often were you kicked and hit?

14 A. Well, a number of times, but I really could not count them right

15 then.

16 Q. Were you injured on this occasion?

17 A. Well, logically, I felt the effects later on.

18 Q. What kind of effects did you feel?

19 A. In -- around my right shoulder, and in the lower back on this side

20 here.

21 Q. Yes. Does that mean you had pain in these regions or did you also

22 have -- could one see something on the skin?

23 A. Right shoulder, on my right shoulder, one could see a bruise from

24 the rifle butt for five or ten days. And then, of course, the pain in the

25 rib cage and around the rib cage, and in the shoulder area.

Page 2785

1 Q. Were you beaten by just one soldier or by several soldiers, do you

2 know?

3 A. I think it was several of them. No, I don't think; I'm sure it

4 was several of them.

5 Q. And what about the other Muslim detainees? Were they beaten as

6 well on this occasion? Did you observe that?

7 A. Same thing. Same thing. We all went through the same torture

8 programme.

9 Q. Did the soldiers say anything to you while they were beating?

10 A. Yes. They were using expletives, dirty language.

11 Q. What happened to the Serbs on the bus? Were they beaten as well?

12 A. Yes. They took them into the KP Dom first, of course hitting them

13 with their hands and feet and telling them, "Here you are, Serb

14 traitors."

15 Q. Were they beaten as severely as the Muslims? Was it all alike?

16 A. Oh, no. Oh, no, it was not.

17 Q. So what was the difference? Can you describe how they were beaten

18 and how the Muslims were beaten?

19 A. Well, those who received them in the doorway, they did not go in.

20 They merely pushed them in by hitting them and kicking them from the back,

21 and that is how they would enter.

22 Q. Were regular prison guards present when this happened?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who was present, and where were they?

25 A. At the entrance into the KP Dom building there was Slavko Koroman,

Page 2786

1 Zoran Mijovic, and Milenko Elecic.

2 Q. Slavko Koroman, who was he?

3 A. Before the war he was a policeman, or rather a guard in the KP

4 Dom. And on the eve of the war he was retired, as far as I know.

5 Q. And during your detention?

6 A. And during my detention I was told later on that he was hired on

7 again as the guard commander.

8 Q. And Zoran Mijovic, who was he?

9 A. Zoran Mijovic was a driver for the KP Dom.

10 Q. Was he there before the war and during the war?

11 A. He was a driver too, and during the war I would see him drive a

12 vehicle, but not all that often.

13 Q. And Milenko Elecic, who was he?

14 A. Milenko Elecic was a guard before the war; and during my stay

15 there, guard again.

16 Q. Were they also beating the detainees or where were they?

17 A. They were in front of the entrance, in front of the front door

18 into the KP Dom. I've told you that. And the prisoners would go between

19 them, would go in, passing between them. And then, when we entered, they

20 searched us, seized our identity cards, money, jewellery, watches.

21 Q. Could they see from the entrance, could they see what was -- that

22 you were beaten, being beaten?

23 A. Yes. Yes, we could, because they were next to us, that is, next

24 to that section of the wall where the people had been lined up.

25 Q. How far from the entrance where they were did this happen, that

Page 2787












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2788

1 you were lined up and beaten? Could you say how many metres?

2 A. From the entrance, the length - well, I don't know - fifteen

3 metres. How much space do 21 men take?

4 Q. What did they do while you were being beaten? Did they react in

5 any way?

6 A. No, they did not react. They somehow looked to me as a guard of

7 honour. They did nothing.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the witness has just described

9 the incident 5.4 of the indictment.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


12 Q. Witness, you said that you handed in your identification card.

13 Were you registered by Mr. Koroman or Elecic? Were your particulars taken

14 down?

15 A. No, they did not take down any particulars, unless they took them

16 over from the Herceg-Novi police, because they did have an envelope with

17 them when we were on the bus together.

18 Q. Did you see that this envelope was handed over to one of the KP

19 Dom staff?

20 A. No, I did not see that.

21 Q. Where were you taken in the KP Dom?

22 A. Inside the KP Dom, and then I was taken to Room 20.

23 Q. Room 20, where was it in the building? Just the floor.

24 A. It was on the second floor.

25 Q. In which of the buildings? In the left or the right wing?

Page 2789

1 A. The right wing.

2 Q. From your Room 20, could you see the Drina River?

3 A. I could see the Drina River, its up-flow, where Cehotina flows

4 into the Drina.

5 Q. Could you see the river right in front of the KP Dom, especially

6 the bridge over the Drina, from Room 20?

7 A. No, I could not.

8 Q. How long did you stay in Room 20?

9 A. In Room 20, I was there until the 12th of June, 1992.

10 Q. How many detainees were together with you in Room 20?

11 A. In the early days, that is, when I was brought there, 21 of us

12 were in that room for three or four days, and then some 50, up to 60

13 people were brought to that room.

14 Q. From which areas did they come, these other people?

15 A. They distributed them from other rooms.

16 Q. Yes, but from which area did they come originally? Were they from

17 Foca or other places?

18 A. Foca and neighbouring villages.

19 Q. What ethnicity did these people have?

20 A. They were all Muslims, all of them.

21 Q. These detainees, all of the detainees in Room 20, were they all

22 civilians or was there a soldier among you?

23 A. Not a single soldier was there among them.

24 Q. Were sick people among you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2790

1 Q. Who?

2 A. In Room 20, Esad Hadzic was the most serious case at the time.

3 Q. What did he have?

4 A. He had an ulcer. He was an ulcer patient from before. However,

5 during a day or two, he still had medicines he had been issued in Ulcinj.

6 Q. And were the medicines --

7 A. And when he used the medicines all up, then he began to feel

8 pain. His ulcer burst on the 6th or the 8th of June, I believe.

9 Q. Did he inform the guards that he needed medicine?

10 A. Well, as he was running short of medicines, of course, he was --

11 he tried to prepare himself for this and, yes, he did ask for medicines,

12 but to no avail.

13 Q. When he asked for medicines, did you see how the guards reacted to

14 this request?

15 A. Since he was really very ill, he simply could not stand up any

16 more, so we risked on his behalf -- we opened the window, and asked the

17 guard to help, to either take them -- take him somewhere or come to the

18 room and help him.

19 Q. Do you recall which guard was addressed?

20 A. Dragan Obrenovic was in the compound yard. Then when people came

21 to the window to inform him, they called to him, "Guard, guard," and he

22 pointed the rifle at them and shouted, "Shut the window or I'll shoot."

23 And we had to obey the orders, and so we shut the window.

24 Q. You said that Mr. Hadzic died on the 8th of June. How did he

25 die?

Page 2791

1 A. Sometime on the 6th, his ulcer perforated and he bled

2 intensively. He ran a high fever. We applied cold compresses and gave

3 him water to drink all the time. And then on the 7th of July, a male

4 nurse came to see him, realised that nothing would come out of him, and

5 then they took him to the clinic.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, he said "July" there. I'm not

7 sure that was intended.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I just wanted to clarify.

9 Q. You said "July." Is it June or July?

10 A. June, June, definitely, June.

11 Q. Yes. And you said he was taken to the clinic. Do you mean the

12 hospital -- Foca hospital or what clinic?

13 A. The clinic in the KP Dom compound, the surgery.

14 Q. And you said he died. Where did he die?

15 A. He died in the hospital.

16 Q. The Foca hospital or the clinic?

17 A. In the Foca hospital, in the hospital in Foca. He died the same

18 day.

19 Q. And how do you know that?

20 A. His uncle Hadzic was with me in the same room, his father's

21 brother.

22 Q. Yes. And how did Mr. Hadzic get this information that he had

23 died?

24 A. Because he went with him to the hospital.

25 Q. And how did you learn that he died? Did Mr. Hadzic, the uncle,

Page 2792

1 tell you when he returned? Or how?

2 A. Well, natural, I learned it from Munib Hadzic who came back and he

3 said, "Nothing will -- nothing will come out of him," and he brought along

4 a jacket or something that he had with him. And from him it is that I

5 learned.

6 Q. Where were you taken after the 12th of June?

7 A. I was taken to Room 11.

8 Q. And in -- where was Room 11?

9 A. Room 11 was on the ground floor of the left wing of the building.

10 Q. Why did you have to switch to this Room 11, do you know?

11 A. I don't -- I didn't know it then and I don't understand it now.

12 Q. How long did you stay in Room 11?

13 A. In Room 11, I stayed, I think, until the 18th, maybe 19th -- 18th

14 of July, July.

15 Q. How many detainees were together with you in Room 11?

16 A. Seventy-two.

17 Q. And how can -- did you know them from before, these 72?

18 A. Yes, most of them.

19 Q. And what ethnicity did these detainees have in Room 11?

20 A. In Room 11, of 72 detainees, two were Croats, Mate Ivancic and

21 Kruno Marinovic, and the rest were Muslims.

22 Q. Were sick people among those 72?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You mentioned the Serbs arrested in Montenegro. How long did they

25 stay in the KP Dom?

Page 2793

1 A. I saw them for three or four days, not longer than that. I mean,

2 in the KP Dom.

3 Q. And do you know what became out of them? Did you see them being

4 taken away?

5 A. They were taken away at night so that I could not see that, but my

6 guess is that they were taken to the front line.

7 Q. Besides them, were other Serb prisoners detained in the KP Dom,

8 during your detention time?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Where were they kept? Were they kept separate?

11 A. Yes. They were kept in the right wing of the building, Room 21 or

12 whatever they were called, in that building, and above Room 20.

13 Q. Did you see them in the compound?

14 A. I did, yes.

15 Q. Were they soldiers or civilians? How were they dressed?

16 A. Most of them had uniforms, military uniforms, on.

17 Q. Witness, I would like to clarify something in relation to the

18 detainees in Room 11. You said that there were no sick people among you.

19 A. In Room 11, I found some sick people. I found, and yes, there

20 were some people who were ill in Room 11.

21 Q. And do you recall who was ill?

22 A. I remember Mujo Murguz, Ibrahim Ovcina, Hamdija Mandzo, Aziz

23 Sahinovic, Ismet Pasovic, and so on.

24 Q. And let me just go from one to the other. Mujo Murguz, what

25 did -- what kind of sickness did he have?

Page 2794

1 A. He was a mental case simply. Very -- a man very tense,

2 aggressive. I mean, I am not a specialist but those were the signs, the

3 visible signs.

4 Q. And did he get treatment for his mental condition?

5 A. No, no. He was not treated.

6 Q. What became out of him? Was he released from the KP Dom, do you

7 know?

8 A. I think he was taken for exchange once, but one does not -- it is

9 not known if it ever took place.

10 Q. Does that mean he's missing?

11 A. It does, yes.

12 Q. And how do you know that? Did you have contacts with his family?

13 Or how did you find out that he's missing?

14 A. From the family, and acquaintances, and the survivors from the

15 camp, definitely.

16 Q. And you mentioned Ibrahim Ovcina, what did he suffer from?

17 A. He also had psychological problems.

18 Q. Did you observe anything particular?

19 A. Well, when you see a man eat a cake of soap, you can see for

20 yourself what state of health -- what his state of health is.

21 Q. And what became of him?

22 A. He was also taken for exchange, and all trace of him was lost.

23 Q. Did you know these two persons from before the war?

24 A. I did know Ibrahim Ovcina, because he had also come from the

25 teachers school and we were peers. We were all of the same generation.

Page 2795












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2796

1 Q. Was he mentally disturbed before the war?

2 A. No, never, as far as I know, not before the war.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, it's 11.00.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Just before we leave, is it going to be

5 necessary to sign a redaction form for that reference to his occupation?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour. He said that he was a

7 teacher from the beginning, so...

8 JUDGE HUNT: Did he?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. There is no problem with that.

10 JUDGE HUNT: You told him to not to say what he was doing, and I

11 had thought he had complied with that.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. The position that he had, not his

13 profession.

14 JUDGE HUNT: All right, then.

15 My recollection has been refreshed, by looking at the transcript,

16 as to Mr. Bakrac's problems with Witness FWS-05. That discussion arose

17 when you had Witness 182 here, and you tendered an exit permit in the name

18 of Witness 05. It was made very clear at the time that that was no

19 evidence in relation to Witness 05. It was just the form of document that

20 we were interested in, and that it would be no evidence at all in relation

21 to any exit permit being granted to Witness 05. If that's the problem, I

22 don't know whether it still exists, but when you speak to Mr. Bakrac about

23 05, there was a very clear reference to this. It is at page 1610 of the

24 transcript. And I think that that may resolve the problem between you.

25 If there is some other problem, we will have to deal with it at

Page 2797

1 some later stage.

2 We will adjourn now until 11.30.

3 --- Recess taken at 11.01 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness, before the break we spoke about those in Room 11 that

8 were sick, and you mentioned Hamdija Mandzo. What did he -- what kind of

9 sickness did he have?

10 A. Hamdija Mandzo, I know from before the war that he was a

11 tuberculosis patient.

12 Q. And did the living conditions at KP Dom affect his health? Did

13 you see anything? Did you notice?

14 A. Absolutely. The shortage of food and of basic hygienic

15 conditions.

16 Q. And in which way did his health deteriorate? What did you see?

17 A. I could see his weakness. For some time he was bedridden; he

18 couldn't even get up.

19 Q. And did he survive the KP Dom?

20 A. He was exchanged. He survived.

21 Q. And how do you know that?

22 A. Well, I know from quite a few citizens who saw him.

23 Q. You also mentioned Ismet Pasovic. What did he suffer from?

24 A. Ismet Pasovic, before the war he was also a serious heart patient.

25 Q. And did the living conditions in KP Dom affect his health

Page 2798

1 condition?

2 A. Absolutely, yes.

3 Q. In which way?

4 A. A shortage of medicine, absolutely, which he probably had to use

5 all the time; also poor nutrition, psychological problems. Absolutely.

6 Q. And do you know what became of him? Did he survive?

7 A. I know that he did not survive.

8 Q. How do you know that? What happened to him?

9 A. I know that he was taken away in a group of 23 inmates towards

10 Montenegro, towards the town of Pluzine, to be precise.

11 Q. Yes. And?

12 A. And that group of people had never been exchanged, nor do I know

13 of them being alive at all.

14 Q. And did you speak with his relatives, or how do you know that he

15 is missing?

16 A. I know because his wife called me personally. She asked. Also

17 his friends, definitely.

18 Q. And I forgot to ask you in relation to Mr. Ovcina, Ibrahim

19 Ovcina. How do you know that he disappeared? Did you speak with

20 relatives or how do you know?

21 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Ibrahim's family asked me about what had

22 happened to him, how come he disappeared.

23 Q. You mentioned Aziz Sahinovic. What did he suffer from?

24 A. Aziz Sahinovic, he had a bad psychosis. He was a psychiatric

25 patient, basically.

Page 2799

1 Q. And how did you see that? What did you see him do that you saw

2 that he has a psychosis?

3 A. When I came to Room 11, Aziz Sahinovic's bed was opposite my bed.

4 During the first few days I came to the conclusion that the man was not

5 doing well, that he was gone, psychologically speaking.

6 Q. What do you mean by that? Could he not talk to you properly, or

7 what do you mean?

8 A. That too, yes, normal conversation. And also his behaviour. He's

9 a man I knew before the war, and then I saw for myself what had happened.

10 Q. I just want to clarify one point. You said that in the Room 20,

11 you were -- the group of you, the 21 from Montenegro and some 50 or 60

12 more, and you said in Room 11, you were 72 people. But do you recall that

13 you gave previous statements to the Prosecutor's office?

14 A. I said, and I think that that is right, the 21 persons stayed in

15 that room for three or four days and then later, when everyone was

16 relocated from other rooms as well, then this room was filled up, in the

17 sense that it reached the number that I had mentioned.

18 Q. Yes. Now, I just want to clarify: 72, you mentioned the number

19 of 72. Were there 72 in the Room 11 or in the Room 20?

20 A. Maybe there has been a confusion of numbers. I'm sure that in

21 Room 11, there were 72 persons.

22 Q. Witness, we do not need to go into the details of the living

23 conditions. That was done with other witnesses. But I would like to know

24 from you, do you know if the living conditions, especially the food

25 rations, were deliberately kept so low?

Page 2800

1 A. Absolutely, yes. This was done deliberately, all of this that had

2 to do with meals.

3 Q. How do you know that?

4 A. I know, in that period, and perhaps a year before that, there was

5 enough food in the area of Foca.

6 Q. How do you know that? What do you mean? Were there food

7 reserves?

8 A. Absolutely. All military reserves, flour, food, all of that was

9 in the hands of the people of Foca, the town of Foca and the people who

10 lived there.

11 Q. And do you know what happened to the -- what became of the food

12 reserves? Who used them?

13 A. Absolutely, it was the Serb population of Foca.

14 Q. Is that your conclusion or did you see anything related to that?

15 A. It is primarily my conclusion.

16 Q. Did you see the food that was available to the staff?

17 A. You mean the staff who were detained or the staff who was doing

18 the serving? You mean the personnel who were doing the serving?

19 Q. The staff of the KP Dom. Did you see if they had food available

20 to them?

21 A. They had much better food. Actually, they had normal meals. They

22 were not in a situation to eat what we had to eat or what we could eat, or

23 rather which we had to eat.

24 Q. And how do you know that? Did you actually see them eat in the

25 canteen?

Page 2801

1 A. I saw it and, absolutely, our people who worked in the kitchen

2 could tell us about this.

3 Q. Do you know -- did you observe food deliveries arriving in KP

4 Dom?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you -- when did you observe that?

7 A. Once I had the opportunity. It was in August, July or August,

8 when a truck full of food arrived from Titovo Uzice. Actually, the truck

9 had licence plates of Titovo Uzice.

10 Q. When you say August or July, what year?

11 A. 1992.

12 Q. And what happened when the food-- the truck arrived? Was it

13 unloaded? And who did that?

14 A. I personally unloaded it. Vujicic was the man who worked at the

15 warehouse. There was sugar, marmalade, pasta, salt, oil. That's what was

16 there then.

17 Q. You said you personally unloaded it. Who ordered you to unload it

18 and where did you have to take it?

19 A. I was ordered by one of the guards. I can't remember now which

20 one it was.

21 Q. And where did you -- where was the food then stored, these

22 deliveries?

23 A. It was stored at the warehouse, that is by the stairs that lead to

24 the dining room where we had our lunch, our meals.

25 Q. And did the detainees get this food? You mentioned some of the

Page 2802

1 food deliveries. Did the detainees get it, do you know, at least parts of

2 it?

3 A. As for what I had unloaded, we never got any such thing on our

4 table.

5 Q. Do you recall that a TV crew once entered the KP Dom?

6 A. Yes, I recall.

7 Q. And when was that?

8 A. I don't know whether my time is going to be very accurate now. It

9 was July, I think. I don't know about the date for sure. A CNN crew

10 came.

11 Q. And when you say "July," what year?

12 A. 1992.

13 Q. Did you know in advance that a TV crew was coming or was it a

14 surprise when they came?

15 A. I did not know. It was a surprise.

16 Q. Did the KP Dom look different on that day when the crew was there,

17 the TV crew, or was it like usual?

18 A. Well, the room where I was then, Room 11, was not any different.

19 Q. Do you know about the other rooms?

20 A. I don't know, because the crew came from the right part of the

21 building, and I don't know whether they had been to see some other rooms.

22 I'm not sure about that.

23 Q. Did you get -- on this day, did you get the same amount of food or

24 was it different?

25 A. Well, look. I have to clarify something. What happened was that

Page 2803












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Page 2804

1 a TV crew came twice, or rather one crew and one TV crew. And now I'm

2 just saying that I saw a TV crew of CNN that came to a place underneath my

3 windows. And the crew that came to see the canteen and probably to film

4 whatever was going on there, normal life or -- whether it was normal or

5 not, that's a different question, but that was a different crew.

6 Q. When was this other crew there, this different one?

7 A. This crew came sometime around the beginning of August 1992.

8 Q. And where did they come from? From which station?

9 A. No, it's not a TV station. This is a crew headed by Mr. Mitar

10 Rasevic. They simply happened to come as we were having lunch.

11 Q. So you mean it was just journalists, a delegation of journalists,

12 or what do you mean?

13 A. I don't know what delegation this was or whatever. I just know

14 that the lunch was a bit more festive that day, or rather the meals were a

15 bit more plentiful.

16 Q. On that second occasion in August 1992 or on the first occasion?

17 What do you mean?

18 A. August 1992.

19 Q. Did the KP Dom staff prepare in any way for this second crew to

20 come in?

21 A. Well, we who were detained there carried out preparations for

22 about a day or two. We were ordered to clean all the premises: the

23 kitchen, the rooms, the compound, the yard. That was it.

24 Q. Did you yourself suffer any physical results from the lack of

25 food?

Page 2805

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What?

3 A. Well, over a brief span of time I lost about 24 or 25 kilograms.

4 Q. Did you suffer any other physical results from the living

5 conditions?

6 A. Yes. Three times I had pneumonia.

7 Q. When was the first time?

8 A. The first one was sometime around November 1992.

9 Q. And what caused it?

10 A. Well, the cause is absolutely the shortage of normal quantity food

11 and the conditions under which I lived: the cold and the shortage of

12 medication.

13 Q. And when did you get the second time pneumonia?

14 A. The end of December, 1992, and it lasted for about 15 days. I

15 mean, I'm trying to tell you that it spilled over into 1993 as well.

16 Q. And what caused it? Do you know? Was there anything particular?

17 A. Well, what was particular was that in that period I was taken to

18 an isolation cell, in December 1992.

19 Q. And why were you put into an isolation cell? What had you done?

20 A. Because at that time I made a heater for heating water.

21 Q. And how were the conditions in the isolation cell at that time in

22 regard of coldness?

23 A. Well, the ground floor, two by two metres, hardly any light, one

24 blanket. You can imagine what such conditions are like.

25 Q. And how cold was it? Can you describe it to us that we

Page 2806

1 understand?

2 A. 1992 was a cold year anyway in the territory of Foca. At that

3 time, the temperature was between minus 18 and minus 20.

4 Q. When did you get pneumonia for the third time? And what caused

5 it?

6 A. In 1993, October, it was caused by my work in the mine.

7 Q. How did this cause pneumonia? What was it? What were the

8 conditions that caused you to get sick?

9 A. You work among a lot of dust and water. You get out of the mine

10 all wet. You take a cold bath. You sit in an open truck. And of course,

11 when you take this 12 kilometre ride from Miljevina to the KP Dom, that is

12 what follows.

13 Q. And did you develop any long-lasting physical conditions due to

14 the living conditions in the KP Dom? Do you still suffer anything in

15 relation to that?

16 A. Yes, absolutely. I have problems. If I have even a bit of a

17 cold, my lungs suffer, and also my bones, naturally.

18 Q. What is wrong with your bones? Do you have -- did you develop a

19 disease?

20 A. Well, I'm not a medical expert but this is pain in the bones

21 accompanied by rheumatism.

22 Q. Witness, while were you detained in the KP Dom, were you beaten?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How often were you beaten?

25 A. Three to four times.

Page 2807

1 Q. When were you beaten for the first time, do you recall when that

2 was?

3 A. On the 11th of July, 1992.

4 Q. In which room were you at that time?

5 A. I was still in Room 20.

6 Q. You said just said number 20, but if I'm not mistaken, you said

7 that you were in the Room 11 until the 18th of July.

8 A. I apologise. My mistake.

9 Q. And where were you beaten? In which room? In Room 11 or

10 somewhere else?

11 A. On the ground floor, the corridor in front of Room 11.

12 Q. And who beat you?

13 A. Dragan Obrenovic and Zoran Matovic.

14 Q. Zoran Matovic, who was he?

15 A. He was an unemployed craftsman. He was recorded as an unemployed

16 person. I know him well. And I knew what had been going on with him. I

17 realised that he got a job as a guard at the KP Dom.

18 Q. And Obrenovic, who was he?

19 A. I knew Dragan Obrenovic quite superficially. Well, I actually got

20 to know him pretty well at the KP Dom.

21 Q. What was his position? Did he have a position at the KP Dom, a

22 function?

23 A. I think he was just a guard.

24 Q. And how did they beat you? Did they just slap you or did they use

25 objects? How severe was it? Can you describe what happened?

Page 2808

1 A. Well, the beating lasted for some 15 minutes. They kicked me, in

2 the chest, around the kidneys, and Zoran Matovic once slapped me in the

3 face.

4 Q. And did they use objects?

5 A. No, not on that occasion.

6 Q. And why were you beaten? What was the reason?

7 A. I never found that out, and I shall never understand why.

8 Q. When the two were beating you, what did they wear? What kind of

9 clothing did they wear?

10 A. Both wore camouflage military uniforms.

11 Q. And did they have weapons on them?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What? What did they have?

14 A. They had semi-automatic rifles.

15 Q. When they beat you, were you injured?

16 A. Well, only when I cooled off I felt it. At that moment I did not

17 feel anything, but a couple of days later I began to feel the

18 consequences. But I was so emaciated that, yes, definitely I did feel the

19 consequences.

20 Q. How did it feel? Was it painful? Did you have bruises? Can you

21 be more specific?

22 A. Well, bruises you could not see. Only here above the right kidney

23 I was slightly blue, but -- and in the chest, well, nothing. Lungs. It

24 simply hurt.

25 Q. And how long did it hurt? How long did you feel these

Page 2809

1 consequences?

2 A. Well, it must have been at least 10 or 15 days.

3 Q. And after this beating were you taken back to your room, or where

4 were you taken?

5 A. On that occasion they took me back to my room.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the witness has just described

7 the incident 5.16 in the indictment.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


10 Q. But I forgot to ask you, Witness: At what time of the day did

11 this happen?

12 A. It happened after lunch, and the lunch would finish around 1.00,

13 perhaps half past.

14 Q. When were you beaten for the second time? When was it?

15 A. In October 1992.

16 Q. Where were you beaten?

17 A. They beat me in the rooms in front of the isolation cells, that

18 is, in the area of Room 20.

19 Q. The isolation cells, on which floor were they and in which

20 building?

21 A. On the ground floor, that is, next to the entrance to Rooms 18,

22 20, on the left-hand side, in the right wing, on the ground floor.

23 Q. And why were you beaten on this occasion?

24 A. After the lunch my brother and I were ordered to take the refuse

25 which was in front of Room 22, and we were assigned by Zoran Matovic and

Page 2810

1 Dragan Obrenovic.

2 Q. And what did you have to do with the refuse?

3 A. To take it to the dump site and bring back the bin, of course.

4 Q. Yes. And did you do that?

5 A. We did.

6 Q. And?

7 A. We passed by the bakery, and my brother saw in the doorway the

8 cook, whom he knew. But he did not dare ask bread for him, but this one

9 moved away from the door and he entered the bakery and took two loaves.

10 Q. Was that observed?

11 A. Yes. The cook observed it and reported to the guards.

12 Q. And what happened?

13 A. Well, since a new guard shift had arrived, we returned to the

14 dormitory, of course. And then the next day, when he was back on the

15 shift again - I mean Zoran Matovic and Dragan Obrenovic, when they were

16 back on the shift - at 7.00 in the morning he walked into the dormitory,

17 took us out of the dormitory and to the area in front of the isolation

18 cells, and began to beat first my brother - both of them, both Obrenovic

19 and Matovic - with their hands, with their feet, slapping him. And then

20 my turn came, and it lasted for more than half an hour.

21 Q. Witness, when you look on the sheet in front of you, your

22 brother -- please look at the sheet. Your brother, is it the number 76 on

23 this sheet?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How were you beaten in particular? Were you beaten with objects

Page 2811












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2812

1 or just with hands and feet?

2 A. Only with hands and feet.

3 Q. Did you sustain any injuries?

4 A. I did.

5 Q. What?

6 A. I had difficulty breathing, my lungs hurt. And besides, after

7 that I was put in an isolation cell, and it, of course, contributed to the

8 deterioration of my health.

9 Q. What about your brother? Was he also taken into an isolation

10 cell?

11 A. He was, yes. He was also taken to an isolation cell. But let me

12 also say that at that moment, two more inmates were brought, inmate number

13 08 and Dzevad Cosovic, because they had also seized the opportunity to --

14 that same day, in the afternoon, to ask the guard to take out the refuse

15 from Room 20. Because when they saw that we had come by bread, they

16 decided to do that because of course it was an indispensable item. And

17 that same morning, they took them down to those rooms at the same time

18 with us, and they went through the same torture as we did. After that,

19 they put in the isolation cell me and Dzevad Cosovic and in another

20 isolation cell person coded as 08 and 76.

21 Q. And did you actually see the other two men being beaten or did you

22 only hear it?

23 A. No. I saw it. It all happened before my own eyes.

24 Q. And who beat the other two?

25 A. The same two guards, Zoran Matovic and the other one, Dragan.

Page 2813

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the witness has just described

2 the incident 5.20.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


5 Q. How long did you stay in the isolation cell on this occasion? How

6 long did you have to stay?

7 A. I stayed there some ten or maybe 11 -- 12 days on that occasion.

8 Q. And how were the conditions in the cell on this occasion regarding

9 coldness?

10 A. Well, listen, two persons under one blanket, and nothing else.

11 You didn't have another bed or you didn't have another blanket to put

12 under. That blanket served for everything, like the sheet and the blanket

13 and all.

14 Q. And how long was this Dzevad Cosovic with you in the cell, the

15 entire time?

16 A. Yes, all the time.

17 Q. And what about your brother and the other gentleman? How long did

18 they have to stay in the isolation cell? As long as you or a different

19 period?

20 A. They stayed as long as we did.

21 Q. Who released you from the isolation cell?

22 A. Mitar Rasevic came and released us.

23 Q. While you were in the isolation cell, was anyone else mistreated

24 there, in either -- any of the other isolation cells or in the corridor?

25 Did you hear anything?

Page 2814

1 A. Yes. I heard something, but it was a citizen of Serb origin.

2 Q. What did you hear?

3 A. Blows, screams, a quarrel. Must have been pijancuga.

4 Q. Do you recall that you gave statements to the investigators of the

5 Prosecutor's office in the past?

6 A. Sorry, which Prosecutor's office do you mean?

7 Q. This Prosecutor's office, here.

8 A. Oh, I see, yes.

9 Q. Yes, did you give statements?

10 A. Yes, yes, I did.

11 Q. In your statement from October, 1995, you mentioned that this

12 particular incident that you just described to us happened in February,

13 1993, and not in October, 1992. Can you explain that?

14 A. Well, I can explain it. I suppose the first time I gave the

15 statement I could not recall the date. I was not mentally up to it. And

16 I suppose I wasn't really aware of the dates. I did try to draft this

17 when I arrived where I am now, and there I think that in 80 per cent of

18 the cases, I managed to recall the accurate dates of various things that

19 happened in the KP Dom.

20 Q. And are you now sure that it was in October, 1992?

21 A. The incident that I just told you, I'm quite sure that it was in

22 1992.

23 Q. And how can you be sure now?

24 A. Well, I can, because in October, 1992, for the first time, to my

25 dormitory, number 20, Witness 76 was brought. It was then that he came

Page 2815

1 there for the first time, and I was with him together when we were

2 tortured and so on.

3 Q. When were you transferred to the Room 20? You mentioned to us

4 that you were in 20 first -- in Room 20 for the first days and then in

5 11. When were you transferred to 20 again?

6 A. After transfer from Room 11, I was in Room 16 for three or four

7 days, and after that, was taken back to Room 20. I was something of a

8 tennis ball. I really had a privilege of being in all the rooms in the KP

9 Dom. Not only me, sorry; of course, there were others too.

10 Q. And your brother, when did he arrive? How many days before this

11 second beating occurred? How many days before did he arrive in Room 20?

12 A. I'm telling you in October, when that beating happened, he could

13 have arrived only one day before that, because it was my first

14 encounter -- meeting with him, the first day. The next day, this

15 incident which I have just described took place.

16 Q. Can you describe to us this third beating that you experienced?

17 When was it?

18 A. The third beating, November, 1992.

19 Q. Where were you beaten?

20 A. They beat me in front of the isolation cells, in the same area in

21 which the previous incident had taken place.

22 Q. And why were you beaten on this occasion?

23 A. On that occasion, they beat me because they found on my hands and

24 feet socks which we had sewn from blankets which were frayed and torn.

25 Q. And who beat you?

Page 2816

1 A. I was beaten by -- Momir is his first name. Just a moment, I'm

2 not sure I can recall his last name. Momir, Momir, he was a guard.

3 Q. You do not need to struggle. It's enough for us to know that it

4 was a guard, actually. And who else? Was it only this Momir?

5 A. Yes. Two guards, two guards. Two, two guards.

6 Q. And who was the other one?

7 JUDGE HUNT: Is this one of the incidents in the pleading?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE HUNT: So we don't need their names.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, we don't need their names.

11 Q. So if you don't know now, it's not important. Thank you.

12 And were you injured on this occasion?

13 A. There were less consequences. I wasn't injured much.

14 Q. And were you kept in an isolation cell after this beating?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. And for how long?

17 A. Six or seven days.

18 Q. Who released you?

19 A. Mitar Rasevic released me.

20 Q. You said that you were beaten three to four times. Do you recall

21 any fourth beating?

22 A. I think I've told you. July, October, November, and December

23 1992.

24 Q. Yes. What happened in December 1992?

25 A. In December 1992 -- I described it to you. I told you it had to

Page 2817

1 do with the heater which I made to heat water with.

2 Q. You told us that you were locked into the isolation cell because

3 of this having built a heater, but you did not tell us if you were beaten

4 on this occasion. Were you beaten?

5 A. Yes, quite. Yes. I was slapped a couple of times by Zoran

6 Matovic.

7 Q. And how long were you kept in -- oh, you told us already that you

8 were kept in the isolation -- no, I don't know. How long were you kept in

9 the isolation cell on this occasion?

10 A. It was the 27th of December, 1992, and I stayed 12 days in the

11 isolation cell. Every morning I insisted, I urged, I requested from the

12 guards to allow me to go to the doctor, to see the doctor, or rather the

13 nurse who at that time worked in the clinic.

14 Q. And did you see -- were you taken to the nurse and did you get

15 treatment?

16 A. No. They did not take me there until Mitar Rasevic came and said,

17 "You can go to the clinic, and then we'll see what to do with you."

18 Q. And while you were in the isolation cell on this occasion, did

19 you -- were there other people as well locked together with you or in the

20 adjacent cells?

21 A. In the -- there was somebody in the adjacent cell, somebody, a

22 man.

23 Q. Do you know who he was? Was it a Muslim?

24 A. I could not really guess, because he was afraid and I was afraid.

25 And you know how we communicated in those cells by knocking on the wall or

Page 2818

1 something, or shouting, but we did not communicate until they came to take

2 him.

3 Q. Who came to take him?

4 A. One of the guards. I could not see him.

5 Q. And did you find out who he was then when he was taken? Could you

6 see anything?

7 A. All I could do was hear that it was a Muslim name. Whether it was

8 Omer or Osman, I simply do not remember that name being called out and

9 asked to follow.

10 Q. While you were there in the isolation cell on this occasion, did

11 you hear anybody being beaten?

12 A. Yes. I already mentioned when a Serb was beaten. But on the

13 other side of my cell there were also other isolation cells. I was in the

14 left one, but to the right there were also isolation cells, and from those

15 cells one could hear screams very often, but I could never identify who

16 that was.

17 Q. Were you interrogated while you were in the KP Dom?

18 A. No, I was never interrogated.

19 Q. Do you know why you were not interrogated? We have heard from

20 other witnesses that they were interrogated. Why were you not?

21 A. I don't know. I can only make some guesses.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I mean, unless he was told by

23 somebody, it's not of any use to us. With all due respect, he may have

24 good reasons for guessing, but it doesn't assist us.


Page 2819












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2820

1 Q. Were you ever charged or convicted of any offence while you were

2 there?

3 A. No, I was never charged and never convicted.

4 Q. While you were in Room 20 - let's first talk about your time in

5 Room 20 - did you see detainees return to your home with injuries?

6 A. Yes, I did see that.

7 Q. When was that?

8 A. In early June 1992. Room 20. From the area Marinkovici, eight

9 citizens were brought there from, and they were Latif Hasanbegovic, Halim

10 Seljanci, Haskovic, and somebody -- and one Krso were brought on that

11 occasion.

12 Q. This Marinkovici, where is it? In which municipality is it?

13 A. It is Foca municipality, and more specifically, the area of

14 Tjentiste.

15 Q. And Halim Seljanci, who was he?

16 A. Halim Seljanci is of Albanian origin and has lived in the area for

17 20 years or so.

18 Q. And how old was he, approximately?

19 A. Fifty, fifty-five, sixty.

20 Q. And when you saw him, did you see injuries on him?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What kind of injuries?

23 A. On the face he had a visible injury around the chin, and later on

24 I had the opportunity to see that he had suffered various injuries.

25 Q. And do you know where he sustained these injuries and how?

Page 2821

1 A. As they were arrested in the area where they were, that is, in the

2 area of Marinkovici, I mean, he and those others who were brought told us

3 that they had been beaten and ill-treated by the group who brought them to

4 the KP Dom.

5 Q. And this Hasanbegovic, Latif, who was he?

6 A. Latif Hasanbegovic was a farmer. I met him in the KP Dom. I

7 didn't know him before.

8 Q. And how old was he?

9 A. Sixty-ish, sixty-five.

10 Q. And what injuries did you see on him, if any?

11 A. Those were men -- once they were brought to the dormitory and they

12 just collapsed right next to the door because they could not stand on

13 their feet. Then later on, when they were in the dormitory, we

14 established contact with them and we saw -- or rather, they began to pull

15 their sleeves up and show us bruises and swellings and so on.

16 Q. And Aziz Haskovic, who was he?

17 A. Aziz Haskovic was also a farmer from the area of Marinkovici. He

18 was about 70, 71 years old.

19 Q. Did you see also the same injuries on him, like on the others?

20 A. Not the same but almost the same.

21 Q. And this Krso?

22 A. Krso had bruises all over his face and over here, here. He said

23 that he had been hit by a metal bar, over here. He had a bad laceration

24 on his right shoulder.

25 Q. Yes. The witness was pointing on the right shoulder.

Page 2822

1 Were these -- you said that when you saw them, they had been

2 beaten. Were these men taken out and beaten while in the KP Dom, do you

3 know?

4 A. Three or four days later, the guards called out their names and

5 they were called in order to give statements.

6 Q. What time of the day was it?

7 A. This happened sometime before lunch, 11.00, 11.30.

8 Q. And did they return to the room on the same day?

9 A. Yes. They returned to the room afterwards, after we had finished

10 lunch. They came about 3.00 or 3.30.

11 Q. In which state were they when you saw them returning?

12 A. First they were noticed when they entered the room where we were,

13 and the guards escorted them. They were practically on their hands.

14 Q. Did you see any fresh injuries on them?

15 A. Their bodies were black and blue from their previous injuries.

16 Before that they had been beaten so badly. But then this time you saw

17 that they simply couldn't get up. They couldn't get up to eat at all. So

18 they were really beaten badly.

19 Q. And did they tell you where they were beaten or who beat them on

20 this occasion within the KP Dom?

21 A. They did not tell us. They just told us that they were beaten on

22 the orders of the investigators.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the victim Halim Seljanci,

24 that's B51. Hasanbegovic Latif that's B25. And Aziz Haskovic is B26.

25 And the fourth person is not in the schedules.

Page 2823

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


3 Q. What became of Halim Seljanci? Did he survive the KP Dom?

4 A. As far as I know, none of them survived the KP Dom.

5 Q. What happened to them? Were they taken away?

6 A. He was taken out for one of the exchanges, after which no one

7 heard of him.

8 Q. Did you speak to any relatives of this, of Mr. Seljanci, or how do

9 you know that he's missing?

10 A. Halim Seljanci has a daughter who lives in the same place where I

11 live, and when I came to live there, she came to see me, to seek

12 information concerning her father.

13 Q. And Hasanbegovic Latif, do you recall when he was taken away and

14 to whom you spoke about him?

15 A. As for the exact date, I have it written in my notes. If I may

16 look at my notes, I can tell you the exact date, but now I can't

17 remember. His son Ejub also asked about him and I also said that I had no

18 information as to what had happened to him.

19 Q. We do not need the exact date but when -- was he taken away in an

20 exchange?

21 A. Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

22 Q. And Mr. Haskovic?

23 A. He was also taken out for an exchange.

24 Q. And did you speak with any relatives of him?

25 A. Well, with relatives, yes, but not his wife or brother, somebody

Page 2824

1 like that, but I did talk with one of his relatives in the area where I

2 live.

3 Q. Was a certain Ibrahim Sandal together with you in Room 20?

4 A. Yes, he was with me.

5 Q. And when did he come to the KP Dom?

6 A. It's August, the second half of August, sometime in the second

7 half of August, 1992. He was brought from the area bordering on

8 Montenegro, the area of Celebici Zavajt.

9 Q. And was Mr. Sandal beaten while he was in the KP Dom, do you

10 know?

11 A. He came to the KP Dom after having been beaten up already.

12 Q. Do you know where he was beaten up? Did he tell you?

13 A. On the road between Zavajt and the KP Dom.

14 Q. And was he beaten in the KP Dom as well, do you know?

15 A. He spent only a short period of time in my room. He spent about

16 ten days in Room 20, and then he was transferred because he kept insisting

17 that he did not feel very well. He insisted that he should be somewhere

18 near the clinic. And then he was transferred to Room 15.

19 Q. And do you know what became of him?

20 A. He was taken out. I know that he was taken out to the

21 administrative building of the KP Dom, and certainly this was not done

22 with good intentions in mind. I don't know whether he was beaten up a

23 second time. I'm not aware of that. I just know that he died as a result

24 of the beating that he had suffered.

25 Q. And how do you -- when did he die?

Page 2825

1 A. He died sometime in 1994, March, April.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this person Ibrahim Sandal is

3 mentioned in the indictment under 5.25.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


6 Q. You have already mentioned Aziz Sahinovic, that you saw him in the

7 KP Dom. Who was he?

8 A. Aziz Sahinovic was a normal citizen of Foca. He was employed at

9 the Privredna Banka, a bank in Foca. I knew him well. And it so happened

10 that we slept in the same room.

11 Q. And which room was that? I think you mentioned it already.

12 A. Room 11.

13 Q. And in -- you have already mentioned that he suffered mentally and

14 he was disturbed. In which state was he physically when you met him in

15 Room 11?

16 A. Aziz Sahinovic was a corpulent man before. He was hard-working.

17 When I came to Room 11, there was only half of him left.

18 Q. Did you see any injuries on him?

19 A. Absolutely.

20 Q. What kind of injuries, can you describe it in more details,

21 please?

22 A. He had bruises on his face and he also had a big laceration in the

23 area of his backbone, and his entire body was black and blue.

24 Q. Did he tell you how he received these injuries?

25 A. Yes, he told me.

Page 2826

1 Q. What did he tell you?

2 A. He told me that they had beaten him before that and that time, he

3 told me that these were the consequences of his beatings.

4 Q. Beatings. Did he tell you where he was beaten? Was he beaten in

5 the KP Dom or somewhere else?

6 A. In the KP Dom premises.

7 Q. Did he tell you who beat him?

8 A. No, no. He never told me that.

9 Q. And did he tell you what he was accused of or why he was beaten?

10 A. Yes. He told me why they were beating him. Actually, he worked

11 with foreign currency, 36.000 Deutschemarks went missing from the

12 Privredna Banka treasury and they kept telling him that he was the one

13 that had taken that money.

14 Q. Was Mr. Sahinovic taken out of Room 11 when you were in Room 11?

15 A. Yes. A few days after I had been there, the guards came to get

16 him. He wasn't there for three or four hours, then he returned to the

17 room again. He could not utter a word. He just kept saying, Money,

18 money, money, money.

19 Q. Had he been beaten again or why was he so disturbed? Could you

20 find out?

21 A. Out of fear, because of the contact he had with these people who

22 had taken him out, but he had not been beaten on that day.

23 Q. Was he taken out on another occasion?

24 A. They took him out sometime around the end of July. They took him

25 away. And then I was transferred to another room. After the 18th of July

Page 2827












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2828

1 he never returned to Room 11. After the 18th, after I had left that room,

2 I saw him being returned by a guard to the room, all beaten up, which is

3 to say that he had been in an isolation cell.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this person is referred to in

5 the indictment under 5.29.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


8 Q. Witness, we do not need to go into the general pattern of beatings

9 that occurred at the KP Dom. Other witnesses have told us already about

10 that. But during your previous interviews, you spoke about four groups of

11 detainees that were taken out during four separate incidents, and I would

12 like to concentrate on these incidents. Do you recall that you described

13 four incidents, four groups that were taken away for beatings, in your

14 previous statements?

15 A. Yes, I remember that well.

16 Q. When did -- these four incidents, when did it happen?

17 A. Those four incidents occurred in the period between the 12th and

18 the 28th of June, 1992.

19 Q. How do you know that it was this period? Because in your previous

20 statement you mentioned June or July 1992. How can you be sure about this

21 period?

22 A. Well, as I think back -- my thinking was absolutely wrong the

23 first time. I mean, I got the date wrong. Because everything that

24 happened, happened in that period of mid-June, the latter half of June, so

25 now I'm sure that it happened in that period.

Page 2829

1 Q. When was the first group called out? This first group that was

2 called out, at what time of the day were they called out?

3 A. Since there were four groups, I could not think of the exact date,

4 so I took this period between the 12th and the 28th of June. And it is

5 accurate. From the 12th of June until the first group was taken out,

6 there wasn't a long period really; it was only a day or two. I don't

7 think it was more than that.

8 Q. How long had you been in Room 11, approximately, when this first

9 group was taken out?

10 A. I said previously that I was staying in Room 11 from the 12th of

11 June until the 18th of July.

12 Q. And was it at the beginning of your stay in Room 11 that this

13 first group was called out, or more to the end?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. I had asked an alternative question, so was it in the beginning of

16 your stay in Room 11 or at the end, more to the end?

17 A. At the very beginning of my stay there, a day or two after I was

18 brought into Room 11.

19 Q. And what time of the day were these detainees taken out?

20 Approximately, not the exact hour.

21 A. 6.00 or 7.00 in the evening.

22 Q. And how many were called out?

23 A. Nine on the first day.

24 Q. Do you recall who called them out?

25 A. Well, it's hard for me to remember which guard it was.

Page 2830

1 Q. Was it a guard?

2 A. Yes. Yes. Guards would come and call out people's names.

3 Q. Who was called out? Do you recall who?

4 A. In the first group I remember there was Nurko Nisic, Munib Veiz,

5 Mustafa Kulaglija, Zaim Rikalo, Mithat Rikalo, Halim Konjo, Kruno

6 Marinovic. I can't remember now. I don't know if I gave you all the

7 names. I should know all the names.

8 Q. As we go from name to name, you will see; you will probably

9 remember. Nurko Nisic, who was he?

10 A. Nurko Nisic worked as a clerk in the municipal authorities.

11 Q. Was he in Room 11 when he was called out?

12 A. Yes. Yes, he was in Room 11.

13 Q. And when you came into Room 11, was he already there?

14 A. Yes. Yes, he was there.

15 Q. And when you saw him after your arrival in Room 11, in what state

16 was he?

17 A. He was in a rather bad condition. First of all, he had lost quite

18 a lot of weight. He told me that he had been beaten up beforehand, and he

19 was suffering the consequences of these beatings. I mean, he had pain.

20 Q. And did you see injuries on him?

21 A. No, but I could judge by his movements, that were very slow, that

22 he was in bad shape.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this person is on schedule C-19

24 and also is mentioned in 5.27.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 2831


2 Q. You mentioned Halim Konjo. When you arrived in Room 11, was he

3 already there?

4 A. Yes. Halim Konjo was there too.

5 Q. And in which state was he when you saw him?

6 A. Well, Halim Konjo, in addition to having lost weight and having

7 lost his normal appearance, I don't know whether he had been beaten

8 before. I don't think he had.

9 Q. And who was he?

10 A. He had a cafe of his own.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under

12 C-13 and B-33.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


15 Q. You mentioned Munib Veiz. Who was he?

16 A. Munib Veiz was in charge of a shoe shop.

17 Q. And when you saw him in Room 11, did you see any indications that

18 he was beaten before that, before you arrived in the room?

19 A. I could not notice anything, and he did not tell me that he had

20 been beaten either.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this person is B-59 and C-28.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


24 Q. You mentioned Rikalos. Who were they and how many were they,

25 Rikalos? How many were in this group of people who were taken away?

Page 2832

1 A. In this first group there were two Rikalos: Zaim and Mithat.

2 Q. Yes. And who were they? Were they related?

3 A. They were brothers.

4 Q. Do you also know a Husein Rikalo?

5 A. Out of the three of them, I only knew him well. I just know that

6 the other two are his brothers.

7 Q. And was he also taken, this Husein Rikalo, was he also taken in

8 this first group of people?

9 A. No. He was taken out in the other group.

10 Q. And when you saw them -- I forgot to ask you. Sorry. It was an

11 oversight. Halim Konjo, was he in Room 11?

12 A. Halim Konjo was in another room. He was not with me.

13 Q. Do you know in which room?

14 A. He was in a room opposite mine, 15, 16, 14. Believe me, I'm not

15 very good with actual numbers of these rooms anymore. First he was in

16 Room 12 and then he was transferred upstairs, to a different room upstairs

17 in that same building.

18 Q. And Munib Veiz, was he in Room 11 with you or also somewhere else?

19 A. Munib Veiz was in Room 16.

20 Q. And the three Rikalos, were they together with you in Room 11 or

21 were they somewhere else?

22 A. No, they were not with me. They were in different rooms.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Rikalos are mentioned under C-21 to 23

24 and P-45 to 48.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 2833

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Did you see them being taken on other

2 occasions than the one you are just describing?

3 A. Out of this group of nine I did not see any one of them being

4 taken out before that, except that Nurko Nisic told me that he had been

5 taken out.

6 Q. And you mentioned Kuloglija, Mustafa. Who was he?

7 A. Mustafa Kuloglija, he was a teacher by profession. He worked in

8 the so-called SIZ.

9 Q. And was he in Room 11?

10 A. Yes. He was with me.

11 Q. And you mentioned Krunoslav Marinovic. Who was he?

12 A. Krunoslav Marinovic was a radio/TV mechanic who had his own

13 business.

14 Q. Was he a Croat?

15 A. An ethnic Croat, yes.

16 Q. Was he in your room?

17 A. Yes, yes. He was in my room.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This person Mustafa Kuloglija, that's C-15,

19 and Marinovic is C-17, Your Honours.


21 Q. Do you know Nail Hodzic?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. Who was he?

24 A. Nail Hodzic, I know him well. I can't hear you. Yes.

25 Q. Can you hear me now?

Page 2834

1 A. Not very well. Now I can, yes. Now I can, but the microphone

2 doesn't seem to be working.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think it's time for a break anyway, and we

4 could fix it.

5 JUDGE HUNT: It's certainly working, sir. We will take a break

6 now until 2.30.

7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.



















Page 2835












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 2836

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, just before the break, we had already mentioned Nail

5 Hodzic, and I had asked you who this person was.

6 A. Nail Hodzic was a driver for Elektrodistribucija, for power

7 distribution company, and he went into retirement just before the war.

8 Q. Was he in your room?

9 A. Yes, he was in my room.

10 Q. And was he among these first group of detainees who was taken away

11 for beatings?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this is number C10 in the

14 schedules.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


17 Q. Witness, do you know a person named Esad Kiselica?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. And was he also in Room 11?

20 A. No, he was not in Room 11.

21 Q. Do you know in which room he was?

22 A. I can't really remember.

23 Q. And who was he? Did you know him?

24 A. Yes, I did know him, and he was an electrician, also employed with

25 power distribution company in Foca.

Page 2837

1 Q. And was he also in one of these groups taken?

2 A. Yes. He was in one of those groups.

3 Q. And do you know in which group he was?

4 A. I think it was the first one.

5 Q. And this group of people, when you saw them being taken, where

6 were they taken? What did you see?

7 A. They were lined up in front of the entrance into the KP Dom, on

8 the inside.

9 Q. You mean in the compound?

10 A. Yes, yes, in the compound.

11 Q. And did you see them standing there lined up?

12 A. Yes, I saw them lined up.

13 Q. And were they taken into the administration building at a point in

14 time and, if so, in which way?

15 A. No. They were taken in individually, one by one.

16 Q. Did you see who took them inside?

17 A. I could not see that, because they would only come to the door and

18 call out one by one.

19 Q. And did you hear anything after one of them -- one by one, these

20 people were taken in?

21 A. Well, first what I heard if one person had been taken in, one

22 could hear definitely noise, screams, painful cries, blows. One simply

23 could hear those blows, lots of noise.

24 Q. When this noise died down, did you hear anything else?

25 A. After the noise, not long after that, a pistol shot was heard.

Page 2838

1 Q. How do you know that it was a pistol shot? Are you so familiar

2 with the sound of weapons?

3 A. Well, not all that familiar but I guess it was a pistol.

4 Q. Did you hear a single shot or did you hear several shots?

5 A. After those screams and when they lasted, but then would stop, one

6 would hear only one shot.

7 Q. You mentioned that these people were taken in one by one. Did you

8 always hear beating afterwards and then a single shot, or how was it?

9 A. Yes. I would first hear the beating, definitely; and after the

10 beating, then shots would come.

11 Q. Did the shots come at the very end when all beating had stopped or

12 was it a single shot after each separate beating?

13 A. After each separate beating.

14 Q. After you heard -- after the shots, you heard the shots, the last

15 shot, did you hear anything else on that same evening?

16 A. The same evening one could hear a truck being unloaded.

17 Q. What do you mean by "unloaded"? What kind of a sound was it?

18 A. Well, quite simply, the noises that reached us, one could hear the

19 truck quite loudly and then something falling off it, that is, some

20 freight, stone, I mean, or whatever element they were bringing in from

21 destroyed structures in the town.

22 Q. And could you estimate from where in the building or outside of

23 the building you could hear the shots?

24 A. At the time when I listened to that, it was difficult to say,

25 because there was an echo within the KP Dom too, so that I really was not

Page 2839

1 able to identify the direction it came from, and it is my assumption that

2 it all happened in front of the entrance into the KP Dom.

3 Q. And the sounds of unloading a truck, where did they come from?

4 Could you make that out?

5 A. One could make an estimate that it was happening somewhere in the

6 immediate vicinity of KP Dom, and that was something that one could really

7 judge by ear, that it was quite close to the KP Dom.

8 Q. You described these people being taken one by one and these

9 screams that you heard afterwards. How long did these beatings last? For

10 one person, not all together; one person. How long was one person being

11 beaten?

12 A. Well, it did not take the same time to beat every one of them. I

13 didn't have a watch, so I couldn't really measure it, but it must have

14 been more than half an hour per person.

15 Q. Could you hear who was being beaten or could you understand

16 something that the beater said?

17 A. Yes, I could hear it.

18 Q. What did you hear?

19 A. When somebody would be taken into the in-premises of the KP Dom,

20 or specifically, Nurko Nisic, when he was taken in, from my window in

21 Dormitory 11, from which I could see something, and the nearness, and that

22 room was 10, 12, maybe 15 metres away from the room where beatings took

23 place. And when I said that I was able to hear about Nurko Nisic, one

24 could hear a voice. First there were blows, beatings, his scream, all

25 these painful cries. Then one heard a voice, "Nurko, where's your

Page 2840

1 rifle?" And he could barely speak, but he answered, "I haven't got one."

2 And it happened again: "Nurko, where is your rifle?" And again answer,

3 "I haven't got one." And naturally these were followed by further

4 beatings. "Nurko, where's your flag?" "I don't know," would be Nurko's

5 answer. And that is what I could hear.

6 Q. This reference to the flag, what does that mean, "Where is your

7 flag?" Do you know what that meant?

8 A. Well, in Mr. Nurko's desk there was a Croatian flag and it was

9 found there, and I suppose it meant something bad.

10 Q. How do you know that there was a Croatian flag in Mr. Nurko's

11 desk?

12 A. Because Nurko told me so himself while we were together in the

13 same room.

14 Q. Could you identify the voice of the person who was actually asking

15 Nurko for the rifle and the flag?

16 A. Yes. One could recognise the voice very clearly.

17 Q. Can you tell us which voice it was?

18 A. Milenko Burilo's, a guard in the KP Dom.

19 Q. Did you know Mr. Burilo from before?

20 A. Well, I've known him for 15, 20 years even.

21 Q. Did you speak with him before the war or during your detention so

22 that you would recognise his voice?

23 A. Yes. I had an opportunity to be with him in a company, because he

24 was a close friend of my brother's. They worked together.

25 Q. You have described to us what you heard. Could you also see the

Page 2841

1 victims after they had entered the administration building?

2 A. Any victim who went into that administrative building, one could

3 see them, and I did see them.

4 Q. Where did you see them?

5 A. I've already said so, on the inside entrance into the KP Dom.

6 Q. But could you see them after they had been taken through that

7 metal door? Could you see them in the administration building itself?

8 A. Yes, yes, I could see.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

10 show the witness the photo 7476 of Exhibit 18.

11 Q. Witness, you --

12 JUDGE HUNT: It's upside down, isn't it?


14 JUDGE HUNT: It's just not very clear on the screen.


16 A. No, it's all right.

17 JUDGE HUNT: The light's on now. Thank you.


19 Q. When you heard these sounds of beating and when you saw what

20 happened in the administration building, at which window of Room 11 were

21 you standing? Can you point that out to us?

22 A. This window here.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the second window

24 from the left, yes.

25 JUDGE HUNT: The third window from the left and the second window

Page 2842

1 from the right.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, sorry, yes. Sorry, yes. Thank you.

3 Thank you.

4 Q. And now I would like to show you a photo, another photo, that's

5 the photo 7470. That is this one. Witness, do you know where that is,

6 what this room is, and where the arrow, this yellow arrow, is pointing

7 at?

8 A. This room is behind the guards' reception room, guards who were

9 here, to the right as you go in down the passage.

10 Q. Is this, this door where the arrow is pointing at, is that the

11 metal door to the compound? Do you recognize it?

12 A. No, not here.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Just another photo I would like to show.

14 That's the photo 7473. That's this photo. It has to be slightly

15 different so that we can see. Yes. Do you see the building with the

16 number 1? Do you see the metal door on this -- now you have to, it has to

17 be slightly different. We have to see the metal door. Yes. Do you see

18 this door at the left-hand side of the photo?

19 A. Yes, I see.

20 Q. Is that the entrance door where -- in front of which the detainees

21 were lined up?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you point out from which window you could -- which window

24 belonged to the room where the beatings occurred? Is it on this photo at

25 all?

Page 2843












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2844

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the first window

2 from the left-hand side.

3 Q. Witness, let me show you --

4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have the left -- the

6 first window on the left side, but we don't know which floor because it's

7 not in the transcript.

8 JUDGE HUNT: It was the ground floor and it's just around the

9 corner from the door into the building.


11 Q. Witness, let me just clarify a matter with you. I think we can

12 see it on this here. Would you please look at the position of the metal

13 door and this window? Is what you saw -- did it happen in the hall where

14 the detainees were taken in to get into the building, right after the

15 metal door?

16 A. No, no, no. It did not happen in the passage behind the door.

17 Q. Where did it happen? In which room?

18 A. In the first room as you -- if you see this first window, in this

19 room with the first window, unless there is something new there. Perhaps

20 there have been some reconstruction or some works.

21 Q. Let me show you again the photo so that we do not get confused.

22 Let me show to you again the photo 7470. That is the -- according to the

23 other witnesses that we heard, at least some of them, this is actually --

24 the yellow arrow is pointing at the metal door to the compound and there

25 is a window in this hallway. Do you recall that there was a window? Does

Page 2845

1 that look familiar to you at all?

2 A. Well, as for the entrance door, there was no window above that

3 door. There was only a metal door.

4 Q. Yes. And this window, this big window right to the left from the

5 door, was it -- do you recall that there was this window?

6 A. I don't recall this window. There is a passage there but I just

7 don't remember this window.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

9 show to the witness now the photo 7474. That's this. We have to see all

10 windows of the administration building. That's the focus of it. Yes.

11 Thank you.

12 Q. If you look at this photo, and if you have in mind that the window

13 on the left-hand side is the window to the hallway where the metal door

14 was, can you --

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness never said -- this is a

18 leading question. If you have in mind that the window on the left-hand

19 side is the window to the hall, the witness did not say that. The witness

20 said he could not remember that window. And now the Prosecutor leads him

21 that there is this hallway. Now, if --

22 JUDGE HUNT: Are you disputing that that's the window that is

23 behind the hall?

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am not challenging

25 that, but the witness did not say that, and now he's being led. The

Page 2846

1 Prosecutor is leading him and says, "If you have in mind that the

2 left-hand window is the window over the passage." The witness never said

3 that. The witness does not remember any windows in the passage, in the

4 hallway.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no windows in the

6 hallway.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I'm just looking for the transcript of a few minutes

8 ago. He was asked this question: "Would you please look at the position

9 of the metal door and this window. Is what you saw -- did it happen in

10 the hall where the detainees were taken in to get into the building, right

11 after the metal door?" That might have been a leading question, but

12 nevertheless, it wasn't objected to. And his answer was: "No, no. It

13 did not happen in the passage behind the door."

14 Now, I suppose that was a situation where the witness could have

15 accepted or denied the proposition which was explicit in the question:

16 That window was behind the hall. I'm not sure why we're concerned about

17 this. Is this of some importance?

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is important because

19 other witnesses indicated other rooms and other floors --

20 JUDGE HUNT: Of course --

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] -- in relation to the same incident.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Of course they have. That's why Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff

23 is rather desperately trying to get the witness to look at a different

24 part of the building. But the fact that that question is a leading one,

25 which everybody agrees is accurate, doesn't seem to me to be of very great

Page 2847

1 importance here. The mere fact that you ask a leading question doesn't

2 mean that it's not relevant; it's only if there is some prejudice, and I

3 can't see any prejudice to your client here at all. That's not what

4 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff is trying to overcome. She's trying to overcome

5 something quite different to that.


7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. If I only

8 may finish what I wanted to say. But if we say -- if we bear in mind that

9 the first window is in the hallway, we've eliminated this window, and the

10 witness pointed at the previous photograph from behind which window he saw

11 the incident. And if we tell him now -- if we agree that the first window

12 is the window to the passage and before that he said that things did not

13 happen in the passage, then it is suggested to the witness that it is not

14 that window. And before that, he very clearly pointed at this particular

15 window. And if we ask him in the next question, "Well, if this is the

16 window that -- on the passageway," then this is leading the witness and

17 telling him, suggesting him, that that is not it.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I myself fail to see the

19 problem. It was certainly a leading question --


21 JUDGE HUNT: -- but I fail to see the problem with it. May I

22 suggest that your way around it is to ask the witness whether the door,

23 which we could at one stage see on the left-hand side of the

24 photograph - if the photograph could be moved we might see it

25 again - whether he recognises that door.

Page 2848


2 JUDGE HUNT: And then --

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I had already asked him that.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I know that, but taking it step by step. Then ask

5 him what the window is beside it and then proceed from there.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Okay. I thought it was not in dispute,

7 so -- yes.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Well, my only concern is: I know it was a leading

9 question. I've asked Mr. Bakrac to tell me what the prejudice arising

10 from it is. I don't understand what he's seeking to put, and it seems

11 simpler to me if you'd just ask a question which wasn't leading, we'd

12 get over the whole problem.


14 Can you move the photo a little bit so that we can see the metal

15 door?

16 Q. So you see this metal door. Where does this metal door lead to,

17 the metal door on the left-hand side?

18 A. The metal door on the left-hand side leads directly into the

19 hallway.

20 Q. And you see a window next to it, the first window on the left

21 side. What window is that? Is that where you saw the beatings?

22 A. If we look at the window here, that wasn't the window. Look at

23 the structure of the windowsill and everything. The position of the

24 window leads to the hallway. This is new for me, absolutely. It confuses

25 me. The first corner from the very entrance, from the metal door, I know

Page 2849

1 that room, and that is the room that I saw and that is where what I told

2 you about what happened, or rather that's where I heard it from.

3 Q. If it is not this window, the first window next to the metal door,

4 can you point to us the window, then, that you meant, if it is on -- if

5 you can see it?

6 A. [Indicates]

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the second window

8 from the left.

9 Yes, thank you.

10 And I would like to show the witness the sketch 6/1. Would you

11 please put -- yes, please. Okay.

12 Q. Would you please orient yourself on this sketch.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can I lead the witness slightly, because --

14 so that he knows at least which is which?

15 JUDGE HUNT: First of all, asking him whether he can identify that

16 as a plan -- it's not the sketch; it's the plan of the building.


18 Q. When you look at this plan, does it look familiar to you? Is it

19 the plan of the administration building and the prisoners' quarters? Can

20 you orient yourself?

21 A. Well, I can orient myself as far as the position of my building is

22 concerned and building 1, where Room 11 was, and I see the warehouse that

23 was underneath.

24 Q. Yes. Can you point that out to us.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 2850

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The witness is pointing at the word

2 "magazine" in the sketch.

3 Q. Can you now show us the metal door, the metal door that led into

4 the administration building?

5 A. Excuse me, but could I just please ask you, this is an internal

6 sketch of the administration building, is it?

7 Q. This is a floor plan. Can you recognise what it is? It's a floor

8 plan seen from the street in front of the KP Dom.

9 A. This is the entrance door into the KP Dom.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the entrance door,

11 in the middle of this building.

12 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest you next ask him where is the door that

13 goes out from that building into the yard?


15 Q. Where is the entrance door to the yard, this metal door?

16 A. You mean the yard of the KP Dom?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. I think it's this door here.

19 Q. Maybe we turn -- let's turn the photo around, the floor plan the

20 other way around, so upside down. Let's put it upside down. Now you have

21 the view from room 11. Can you now point to us this entrance door to the

22 administration building from the compound?

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the -- yes, at the

24 entrance door, the first room to the second part of the administration

25 building.

Page 2851












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2852

1 Q. And can you now point to us the room where you heard and saw the

2 beatings? Are you able to show this to us on this floor plan?

3 A. In this part here. This was part of the hall, the first window of

4 this part here.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the first room

6 where there is indicated the staircase on the sketch. Yes. Thank you.

7 With the help of the usher, I would like to show the witness the

8 photo 7448.

9 Q. Does this look familiar to you? Would you be able to tell us what

10 you see?

11 A. This is the entrance into the hall of the rooms where the beating

12 took place, the one that I mentioned.

13 Q. Would you be able to point out the room to us where the beating

14 occurred?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the first door

16 after the metal door in -- right in the middle of the photo with the

17 number 1. It's the corridor with the number 1 on it, and he's pointing --

18 JUDGE HUNT: On the right-hand side.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: On the right-hand side, yes.

20 Q. Could you tell us what is indicated -- which door is indicated as

21 number 2 on this photo? Where would this door lead to, do you know?

22 A. This door leads to the telephone exchange that was near the

23 reception.

24 Q. Yes. Thank you. Witness, when you looked out of the window onto

25 the administration building, did you look -- where the beatings occurred,

Page 2853

1 did you look straight ahead or did you have to look to the left or the

2 right, turning your head?

3 A. I had to look a bit to the right.

4 Q. Which part of the room could you see? Could you see the entire

5 room?

6 A. The entrance door and almost half of the room.

7 Q. Do you mean the entrance door leading into the corridor that you

8 just showed us?

9 A. Leading into the room, the room where the beatings took place.

10 Q. And could you see the persons in that room? Could you see the

11 entire persons?

12 A. I could not see all the persons. I recognised Milenko Burilo and

13 Slavko Koroman.

14 Q. Were they in the room when the beatings occurred on this first

15 occasion that you described?

16 A. The beating of Kuloglija Mustafa and of Nurko Nisic. That was the

17 first beating.

18 Q. And -- yes. What did you see Burilo and Koroman do? What were

19 they doing in the room?

20 A. I already said that Burilo was recognisable by his voice. As for

21 what was happening concerning the beating, it is only the movements that

22 could be discerned. You could not recognise who was doing what.

23 Q. You said that you recognised Burilo's voice but did you also

24 recognise his image, he as a person? Could you see clearly enough?

25 A. Clearly enough, quite clearly enough. At the entrance, at the

Page 2854

1 door leading into that room.

2 Q. Did you see him coming through the door or did you also see him in

3 the room doing something?

4 A. He was in the room when Mustafa Kuloglija specifically was being

5 brought into the room. And then, of course, he left that particular

6 place. He then went into action. When I say "went into action," I mean

7 he went into the action of beating.

8 Q. And what did you see Slavko Koroman do? When did you see him?

9 A. These were brief moments. As soon as the beating started, they

10 were in that room too, and they took part in the beating probably. No,

11 not "probably". For sure.

12 Q. Did you recognise any other persons in the room, any others who

13 joined in -- were involved in the beating?

14 A. No, although other persons told me about others, but I do not

15 accept that unless I've seen it myself.

16 Q. Did you see the victims, or one of them?

17 A. I could see Halim Konjo.

18 Q. And what was he doing? Was he standing? Was he lying? What

19 could you see?

20 A. He was standing, and he had a cut up here in this part of the

21 head, because you could see traces of blood on the yellow T-shirt that he

22 was wearing.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the left side --

24 left back side of his head.

25 JUDGE HUNT: I think it was of his neck more.

Page 2855


2 JUDGE HUNT: Down here.


4 A. Oh, yes, absolutely, yes, the upper part of the neck.


6 Q. Did you see any of the victims leave the room after the beating?

7 A. Well, after the beating, of course they left the room.

8 Q. But could you see how that happened? How -- in which condition

9 they left the room? Could they walk on their own or how?

10 A. I doubt they could walk on their own feet. They were mistreated

11 and beaten so badly that I really doubted that any one of them could have

12 stood on his own two feet, let alone walked on his own.

13 Q. The question is: Did you personally see them leave the room, in

14 whatever manner?

15 A. No. I personally did not see them, but I assume, because I saw

16 when the blankets were thrown in, the door was open, and two men appeared,

17 quite unknown to me. I could not recognise them. They left the blankets

18 by the wall and they withdrew through the door.

19 Q. At what point in time were blankets thrown into the room?

20 A. The blankets were thrown in sometime after the second beating,

21 after the beating of Nurko Nisic.

22 Q. How were the conditions in regard of the light when this

23 happened? Was the light in the room? Was it still daylight? Do you

24 recall that?

25 A. I already started that this began around 6.00 or 7.00 and during

Page 2856

1 the first beatings, it is natural to have daylight, say, by 9.00.

2 Q. And when, as the evening progressed, was there light in the room?

3 A. Yes, there was, but --

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether the

5 translation was right but the question was: Was there still light in the

6 room? And if I understood the witness correctly, he said that this

7 started around 6.00 or 7.00, and that there would be daylight until 9.00.

8 He didn't say that there was light in the room. He said that there was

9 daylight until 9.00. And then the Prosecutor asks after that, since there

10 was light in the room, et cetera, in the room.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I think that the week off has given you

12 greater impetus in taking minute points. The evidence goes this way:

13 "How were the conditions in relation -- in regard of the light when this

14 happened? Was the light in the room? Was it still daylight? Do you

15 recall that?" Then the witness answered: "I already stated that this

16 began around 6.00 or 7.00, and during the first beatings it is natural to

17 have daylight, say, by 9.00."

18 Then the next question was: "And when, as the evening progressed,

19 was there light in the room?" Not "still light"; "was there light?"

20 What's wrong with that? It's not a leading question. It's a perfectly

21 normal question. It's not contradictory to anything he said.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the translation I got,

23 because I'm following the interpretation here, I got that kind of

24 translation and I reacted in order to be able to respond as soon as

25 possible, but I didn't manage to look at the transcript and to see what

Page 2857

1 the transcript said. I heard the interpreter say, "Was there still light

2 in the room?"

3 JUDGE HUNT: At this stage, I'm afraid, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I have

4 no recollection of what you did say, but the translation looked perfectly

5 correct - I'm sorry - the transcript looked perfectly correct to me when

6 the objection was first taken. Did you say "still"?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. I said a light, because I was actually

8 referring to other sources of light, like electricity.

9 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I thought you were meaning too.

10 Well, Mr. Bakrac, I think that you -- if that's the interpretation

11 you got, well, then, your objection was fair enough, but the translation

12 itself was clearly wrong. There was no reference to "still." My reaction

13 to the question was "electric light," and that's clearly what she's

14 after. So your objection is overruled, and I'm sorry that you were misled

15 by the translation you received, if that was indeed what was said.

16 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. You proceed.


18 Q. Was electric light in the room after darkness had fallen?

19 A. No, no, there was no electric light.

20 Q. Was there any other source of light in the room after it was dark,

21 after 9.00?

22 A. A torch light was used; a gas torch light, actually, was used in

23 order to give light.

24 Q. And the window, was the window open?

25 A. The window was broken. There was an ordinary wooden board that

Page 2858

1 was -- that covered half of where the window pane was supposed to be, so

2 the window was half open.

3 Q. Did you ever enter this room you were talking about?

4 A. Yes, I did, in the month of August 1992.

5 Q. Why did you enter this room?

6 A. I entered the room because I was told to clean part of the hallway

7 with Mujo Dudic, another inmate, and all the other rooms along there, and

8 I had this ugly honour of doing that.

9 Q. What did the room look like when you had to clean it?

10 A. Well, there were traces of dried blood on the floor and on the

11 walls, and I found a few wooden batons and a metal one.

12 Q. How did these tools, this metal one and the wooden batons -- did

13 you see anything on them?

14 A. Well, on the wooden batons I could see that there was blood.

15 Q. Do you know when, approximately when you cleaned the room, when in

16 August? Do you know that?

17 A. I think it was around the 8th of August, I think. I have it

18 written down, but I think it's the 8th of August.

19 Q. You have mentioned -- you have named several persons that were

20 taken on that occasion. Do you know what happened to these people? Did

21 any of them ever appear again? Were any of them ever seen alive?

22 A. No, none of them have ever been seen alive since.

23 Q. Were you in contact with any of the relatives of these people, or

24 even all of them?

25 A. Well, I did not really have an opportunity of being in contact

Page 2859












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2860

1 with all of them, but with most of them I did have contact: relatives,

2 family, people like that.

3 Q. Did you have contact with the family of Nurko Nisic, and what did

4 they tell you?

5 A. Yes, I had contact with his wife directly and his daughter. They

6 were inquiring as to whether I knew anything about him. It was hard for

7 me to tell them what I saw and what I knew about Nurko.

8 Q. And Halim Konjo?

9 A. Yes. Halim Konjo's wife also called me, and his daughter-in-law

10 or sister-in-law.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that it's an ambiguous

12 word.

13 A. I said that -- I told them what I knew.


15 Q. And the --

16 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. The interpreter has drawn our

17 attention to a problem we have had before about the ambiguity in the B/C/S

18 language about in-laws.

19 THE INTERPRETER: This word is snaha, s-n-a-h-a.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


22 Q. Is it the daughter-in-law or the sister-in-law? How were they

23 related?

24 A. Sister-in-law. His brother's wife. When I say "snaha," I'm

25 referring to his brother's wife.

Page 2861

1 JUDGE HUNT: Sister-in-law.


3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


5 Q. And Nail Hodzic, did you have any contact with Nail Hodzic's

6 relatives?

7 JUDGE HUNT: We've lost the microphone.

8 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness.

9 JUDGE HUNT: The usher had better press the microphone again. One

10 moment. No, no. He obviously knocked the button. I've done it myself,

11 to the horror of the interpreters. It was the button that was pressed.


13 Q. Did you have any contacts with the relatives of the Rikalo

14 brothers?

15 A. No, none with them, because I have no idea where his relatives are

16 or what they are doing. Or rather, I once spoke to his father-in-law.

17 Q. Whose father-in-law? Which of the Rikalos?

18 A. Husein's.

19 Q. And Kuloglija Mustafa, did you contact the relatives or did they

20 contact you?

21 A. No. No, I did not communicate with his family, with his

22 relatives.

23 Q. And Krunoslav Marinovic's family?

24 A. No, I do not know his relatives. He was married to a woman from

25 Foca, but I don't know his family.

Page 2862

1 Q. And Esad Kiselica?

2 A. Yes, I did talk to Esad Kiselica's wife.

3 Q. Are they still missing, do you know, from your contacts? Are they

4 still missing? Were their bodies ever found?

5 A. No, they have not, not yet.

6 Q. You mentioned that several groups were taken away. When was the

7 next group taken away? Between the incident that you just described, when

8 was the next group taken out?

9 A. It was four or five days later, at intervals of four or five days.

10 Q. And how many were called out on this occasion?

11 A. Nine again.

12 Q. And do you recall who was called out?

13 A. Seval Soro, Mate Ivancic, Zulfo Veiz, Ekrem Tulek, Mandzo -- no,

14 not Mandzo. Cankusic, Refik. I'm not sure I can remember all of them.

15 Q. You have already mentioned that Husein Rikalo was in this second

16 group. You told that already in your testimony today and you have already

17 said who he is. Zulfo Veiz, who is that?

18 A. Zulfo Veiz was a policeman in the former police station in Foca.

19 Q. Was he in Room 11 when he was taken out?

20 A. No. No.

21 Q. Do you know in which room he was?

22 A. I think he was in Room 12.

23 Q. And you mentioned Mate Ivancic. Who was he?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Zulfo Veiz, Your Honour, I forgot to say, is

25 C-29 and 5.27.

Page 2863

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

2 A. Mate Ivancic was a medical technician, a laboratory assistant. He

3 worked in the hospital, a Catholic.


5 Q. When you say "a Catholic," does that mean a Croat?

6 A. Yes, his ethnicity, yes. Yes, yes, a Croat, a Catholic.

7 Q. And was he in Room 11?

8 A. No, he was not.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-11.

10 Q. You mentioned Refik Cankusic, that's C-4. Who was he?

11 A. I know his elder brother and his father better than I know him. I

12 know he was trained as a locksmith, but that is about all.

13 Q. You mentioned Soro Seval. Who was he?

14 A. Seval Soro was an electrician and he worked at Electrodistribucija

15 Foca, that is, power distribution company in Foca.

16 Q. And I forgot to ask you, Refik Cankusic, was he in your room, in

17 Room 11, or was he somewhere else?

18 A. No. He was in Room 13.

19 Q. And Soro Seval, was he in Room 11?

20 A. Soro Seval was with me in 11.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's the person C-24.

22 Q. You also mentioned a Tulek. Who was he? Tulek, Kemal, who was

23 he?

24 A. Kemal Tulek was a guard in the KP Dom before the war.

25 Q. And was he in your room?

Page 2864

1 A. No, no, he was not with me.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This person is C-25.

3 Q. Do you know a Bico Hamid, nicknamed Salem?

4 A. I think it's a mistake. There is no Hamid Bico. His name is

5 Salem Bico.

6 Q. And who is he? Who was he?

7 A. He was a policeman in Foca for a while, and then two or three

8 years before the war, he started his own cafe.

9 Q. Was he in your room, in Room 11, or somewhere else?

10 A. No, no. He wasn't in my room.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this is C-2 and B-5.

12 Q. Was Salem Bico in this group of people who were taken as the

13 second group, or was he in any of the groups?

14 A. Yes, yes, he was in the second group.

15 Q. Do you know a Vahida Dzemal?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who was he?

18 A. Dzemal Vahida was also a policeman in Foca.

19 Q. And was he also taken away in one of the groups, and if so, in

20 which; do you recall?

21 A. I think he was with a third group, with Altoka. I think it was

22 the third group.

23 Q. And was he in Room 11?

24 A. Yes, yes, he was in my dormitory, yes.

25 Q. You have already mentioned Fuad Mandzo. In which -- was he also

Page 2865

1 taken away in that manner and, if so, in which group?

2 A. Yes. Fuad Mandzo left with the third group.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Fuad Mandzo, that's C-16.

4 Q. When this second group was led away, were they -- what happened

5 to -- what did you see happen to them?

6 A. Well, I became too afraid to look through the window, as I did in

7 the first group's case. I simply -- my nerves were frayed and I dared not

8 look at him any more because those screams that reached us were horrible,

9 same beatings, same torture.

10 Q. Did you see these people line up in front of the metal door?

11 A. Yes, yes, absolutely, same treatment as the first group, except

12 that I wasn't at the window to watch directly what went on. But I would

13 cast a look now and then and see people going in or coming out.

14 Q. When you -- you mentioned that -- when you described to us Refik

15 Cankusic, you mentioned his father. Was his father also in the KP Dom?

16 A. Yes. His father was in the same room with me.

17 Q. When his son Refik was taken away, how did this affect the father?

18 A. His father had a heart condition from before the war, so he fell

19 into a coma and we had serious problems with him because we had no

20 experience with -- we did not know how to help him. We did not have any

21 tablets that could help him. So for two or three hours, we really had a

22 lot of problems until we managed to bring him back, more or less.

23 Q. Why did he fall in a coma?

24 A. Well, when Refik was taken inside - and before that, he had heard

25 the screams of others - he naturally assumed that the same thing would

Page 2866

1 happen to his son, and simply he, I suppose, did not have enough strength,

2 enough courage, to listen to this, and he simply collapsed.

3 Q. After this second group had been beaten, did you hear anything?

4 A. The second group was beaten in the same area that I described in

5 the first case, so I absolutely heard it. I absolutely could not sleep

6 until it went on. And it went on until late into the night.

7 Q. And after the beating had stopped, did you hear anything else?

8 A. Same procedure. One shot, as many shots as the number of

9 persons. And again, the same sounds of a truck unloading in front of the

10 KP Dom.

11 Q. Let's -- did you hear of any of these people you just mentioned?

12 Did you hear from them again or was anybody found, or the bodies of any of

13 the victims?

14 A. No, I did not hear about that yet. I heard about one victim, and

15 that was the body -- I forgot to say that. It was Halim Konjo's body.

16 Q. And how did you hear this?

17 A. Well, I heard it from my sister's daughter.

18 Q. And were you in contact of the family -- of any family members of

19 this group of victims that you just mentioned?

20 A. Well, of them, I communicated with Salem Bico's family, Zulfo

21 Veiz's. And with others, no, I did not. I didn't have an opportunity.

22 Q. You've already mentioned the third group, and that Vahida Dzemal

23 and Mandzo Fuad belonged to this third group. When were they taken away?

24 How much time elapsed between second group and third group?

25 A. The third group was taken three or four days after the second

Page 2867












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2868

1 group.

2 Q. And do you recall who, besides Mandzo Fuad and Vahida Dzemal, was

3 in this group?

4 A. I remember two Altokas, but I don't know the first name of the

5 other one. I can't remember it, that is. Nermin Hadzimusic, Adil

6 Krajcin, Enes Uzunovic, Ismet Karahasanovic, and Suad

7 Sulabasic [phoen] -- No, excuse me. He was in the fourth group.

8 Q. Would it help you to look into your notes or can you -- can we

9 continue like we do now? Is it --

10 A. Yes, absolutely, it would go much quicker if I could look at my

11 notes, at least some of the names that you are asking me about.

12 Q. Before we do that, I would have to ask you some questions. When

13 did you make the notes?

14 A. In KP Dom, I kept my private diary, and when I was exchanged, the

15 diary was taken away from me and it was about a thousand pages long.

16 However, yes, I'd really like -- I miss that document. I'd really like to

17 have it. Now, when I arrived here -- well, not the first day, but when I

18 left during the first month, I just jotted down something so as not to

19 forget the events, things that happened to me and others, and I had those

20 notes. Of course, it was all handwritten. And later on, I typed some of

21 it out.

22 Q. And the handwritten notes -- the notes that you have with you

23 today are typed notes, the typed notes or the handwritten ones?

24 A. They are typed on a typewriter.

25 Q. And when did you type it? You said first you had handwritten

Page 2869

1 notes, but when did you type them?

2 A. Well, I did it perhaps two years ago.

3 Q. And when you made these typed notes -- were all the dates and all

4 the names in your notes, are they from your memory or the events? Is it

5 your personal memory or did someone help you make your notes?

6 A. I primarily relied on my memory, and also, when I communicated

7 with other people, they helped, because we searched and found the dates

8 that were interesting and correct.

9 Q. In which --

10 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. It's not clear,

11 to me, at least, when the first handwritten notes, of which these are the

12 typed copy, were compiled. He said after he'd first been here. I assume

13 that's when he was first interviewed by the OTP.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. I understood -- but we can clarify it.

15 I actually understood that he made them the first month after his release,

16 but we have to find out.

17 Q. When did you make the first handwritten notes?

18 A. The first notes I put down in 1994, in December, and I was in the

19 place that I am living now.

20 Q. And why did you make the handwritten notes?

21 A. Well, I realised that I might need them sometime, and simply to

22 write down something so that generations to come would know what happened

23 to me and my people.

24 Q. These handwritten notes, did they base on your memory only or did

25 you already consult?

Page 2870

1 JUDGE HUNT: I think he's made that clear, that where he couldn't

2 remember something, he spoke to other people, and it's a collective

3 record -- sorry, it's a record of a collective memory.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I understand that to be right for the typed

5 notes. I was wondering --

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, perhaps I shouldn't have interfered. Reading

7 the transcript, it seemed reasonably clear, but if it's not clear to you,

8 then we had better get it straight.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: To me, it was not clear.

10 Q. The handwritten notes, did they base on your memory, or was it

11 also already after consultation with other people?

12 A. My personal memory, my memories from the KP Dom.

13 Q. And when you made the typed notes, you said that it is the

14 collective memory, you consulted others. Whom did you consult?

15 A. With people who were in the camp with me.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The witness had shown us this document

17 and we have made copies, but of course they are in B/C/S. We didn't have

18 an opportunity to read it or translate it. It's just for his -- for

19 helping him.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Well, he needs to see them, and Mr. Bakrac needs to

21 see them. He can read B/C/S, so it seems to be perfectly appropriate we

22 should proceed. But you had better, I think, have the document marked for

23 identification.


25 JUDGE HUNT: A copy for the translation booth as well. That

Page 2871

1 document -- yes, Mr. Bakrac.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, with

3 your leave, the Defence does have an objection. We're against reading

4 this document because we were given a typed document. We do not know

5 where is that handwritten document on the basis of which we could verify

6 its authenticity. All we have here is a typed document which is the

7 product of collective memory, as he explained to us, and we object against

8 using such a typed document during this witness' testimony.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Are you objecting simply because the handwritten

10 notes made after he had been released have not been produced or are you

11 objecting generally?

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we saw here notes which

13 accompanied some of the exhibits which the witnesses had written, and we

14 did not object against them. But the statements of this witness did not

15 have any notes as an annex or something. All we were given were sketches,

16 were his drawings, the drawings of the KP Dom done in his hand. Now, the

17 question arises: If he had those sketches, then he must have had also

18 those handwritten notes. This is the first time we are given a document

19 which was typewritten, which was typed, and its source could be

20 questionable, to say the least. Besides, the witness says that the

21 handwritten document was the product of collective memory, what he also

22 discussed with other people and what he knew himself, and that was what he

23 wrote down.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I see no point in the second part of the objection,

25 but I still want to get a yes or a no answer. Is the basis of your

Page 2872

1 objection that he has not produced the handwritten notes that he wrote

2 himself after he was released, or is it to any assistance to his memory at

3 all that you are objecting?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my objection is that

5 his notes have not been produced in evidence, his handwritten notes which

6 he wrote himself after he left the KP Dom.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I be given the

8 floor?

9 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, sir.

10 All right. Now I understand it.

11 Now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you will have to tell us at least what's

12 happened to the handwritten notes. Their absence may not be fatal, but

13 we've got to know what's happened to them, because they are obviously an

14 earlier version, of which the typed version is not just a typed copy of

15 them but with additional material.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we actually have to ask the

17 witness, because we did not see the notes, the handwritten notes, and not

18 the typed notes either, so I have to ask the witness.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Nevertheless, there is a gap in the description of

20 how these typed notes came into existence, so I suggest you ask that.


22 Q. Where are the handwritten notes? Do you have your handwritten

23 notes with you?

24 A. No, I don't have them here. I have them at home, where I live

25 now.

Page 2873

1 Q. And why did you make these typed notes?

2 A. Because I didn't put the sequence of events all right and my

3 handwriting is not very legible. And what I wrote here, this is all taken

4 from my notes, all just the way that I did it in my handwritten notes,

5 except that I consulted some people who were -- who had been with me as

6 regards the dates. So the only question here which could arise is dates,

7 which I complemented here, I mean complementing the notes which I had

8 written by hand.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, you now know the course in which it's

10 come out. You maintain your objection, I assume, on the basis that the

11 handwritten notes are not produced. Is that so?

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Does that not just go to the weight of them rather

14 than the right of the witness or the permission that could be granted to

15 the witness to refresh his recollection from this document? The document

16 itself is not being tendered; he is simply being asked whether he would

17 like to refresh his recollection as to certain dates.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are quite right, and

19 I agree, and I fully trust the Chamber and their ability to assess the

20 weight, but the Defence could not but raise objection. I also think that

21 this brings into question the probative value of the testimony. And the

22 Defence is satisfied, but I thought it my duty to object to this form of

23 testimony, because I also think it is a contribution to the evaluation of

24 the probative value of this witness' testimony.

25 JUDGE HUNT: The document will be marked for identification 6.

Page 2874

1 Now, if I may say so, Mr. Bakrac, if only to make you feel happy,

2 if in a common-law country a witness had said he wanted to refresh his

3 recollection from notes, the cross-examiner would not be permitted to see

4 that document unless he undertook to tender it in evidence, so the fact

5 that you're being given a copy of it gives you a great advantage over what

6 you would have got from anywhere else. Nevertheless, we understand, I can

7 assure you, that the weight to be given to the witness' evidence will

8 depend to some extent upon our view about this document, if the dates

9 become of importance.

10 Now, before we adjourn, I should tell you that next Tuesday,

11 that's the 20th, tomorrow a week, the judgement of the Appeals Chamber in

12 the Celebici case is being given, and I have to be there because I was the

13 Presiding Judge in the Appeals Chamber, and it is being delivered at 3.30

14 next Tuesday afternoon. Bearing in mind that there are a number of

15 accused to be brought in and there is going to be some degree of public

16 interest in the proceedings, it does not seem as if we will be able to sit

17 that afternoon. So from the point of view of what witnesses you bring

18 next Tuesday, you may assume we will not be sitting on Tuesday afternoon.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn now till 9.30 tomorrow.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.01 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of

23 February, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.