1 Tuesday, 13 February 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the registrar.

10 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think the registrar said anything different

11 to what she's said every day, so you can just copy out what she usually

12 says.

13 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

14 WITNESS: FWS-71 [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

18 Q. Good morning, Witness.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. Witness, in relation to the second group that you described

21 yesterday, you mentioned that you did not watch again so closely as during

22 the first incident. Did you see all these people that you have mentioned

23 to us lining or only some of them?

24 A. I saw all the men who were lined up.

25 Q. You had started to describe to us the third incident, and you had

1 mentioned that Vahida Dzemal was involved in this and you have already

2 told us who he was. And then you mentioned that Fuad Mandzo was also in

3 the third group. Who was he?

4 A. Fuad Mandzo was a medical technician and he worked in the

5 hospital.

6 Q. Do you know how old he was? Was he a young man, an old man?

7 A. He was barely 25, if.

8 Q. And did you know him from before, from before the war?

9 A. Well, I did, but none too well.

10 Q. Do you know where he lived before the war?

11 A. He lived in the village of Mijakovici, not far from the hospital.

12 Q. And you also mentioned already Enes Uzunovic being in this third

13 group. Who was he?

14 A. Enes Uzunovic was also a medical technician and he worked in the

15 hospital.

16 Q. And you mentioned Nermin Hadzimusic. Who was that?

17 A. Hadzimusic had his coffee shop and lived at Brod.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we had already mentioned

19 yesterday that Vahida Dzemal was C-27, Mandzo Fuad C-16, and Enes Uzunovic

20 C-26. This Nermin Hadzimusic is not on the list.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23 Q. And you mentioned yesterday Adil Krajcin. Who was he?

24 A. Adil Krajcin was one of the commercial directors in the brown coal

25 mine in Miljevina.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this is person C-14.

2 Q. And you also mentioned Altoka. Is this one person or several

3 persons?

4 A. These are two persons, actually, Alija and Miralem Altoka, the

5 same last name, as far as I know.

6 Q. Were they both in the same group?

7 A. Yes, both were in the same group.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the person Alija Altoka is C-1,

9 and Miralem Altoka is not on schedule C.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

12 Q. Witness, you mentioned a person Ismet Karahasanovic. Who was

13 that?

14 A. Ismet Karahasanovic was taken away from the fourth group.

15 Karahasanovic was a forwarder.

16 Q. And you also mentioned a person Islambasic, Suad. Was he in this

17 third group?

18 A. Islambasic, Suad was in the fourth group. He was a car mechanic

19 and he had a job at the Ozren company at Brod.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour the last two mentioned persons

21 are not on Schedule C.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

24 Q. Do you recall anyone else when was in this third group?

25 A. I remember Cedic, Enko; Pasalic, Adnan; and Granov, Adil.

1 Q. Enko Cedic, who was he?

2 A. I did not know Enko Cedic.

3 Q. How then do you know the name? How could you recognise that he

4 was in this group?

5 A. Other people recognised him and they told me about it. They knew

6 him.

7 Q. Did they tell you about it while you were in the KP Dom, while

8 this actually was happening, or later on?

9 A. Yes, yes, yes, while I was at the KP Dom.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Enko Cedic, that's C-5.

11 Q. And you mentioned Adnan Pasalic. Who was he?

12 A. Pasalic, Adnan is from Godijen and he completed a secondary

13 vocational school, technical school.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This person is not on the -- on Schedule C.

15 Q. And you mentioned Granov, Adil. Who was he?

16 A. Adil Granov was an engineer specialising in PTT communications.

17 He was employed at the post office in Foca.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, that is C-9.

19 Q. Witness, you mentioned yesterday that Abdurahman Cankusic was also

20 taken away. Was he in the third group or the fourth group, do you

21 recall?

22 A. He was in the third group.

23 Q. And who was he?

24 A. He was a car mechanic employed in Hidrogradnja, Sarajevo.

25 Q. And he was -- is he a brother of Refik?

1 A. Yes. He was the brother of Refik Cankusic.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this is the person C-3.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

5 Q. You mentioned that the father was -- the father of the Cankusic

6 brothers was actually also aware of what was happening. What became of

7 the father? Did he survive the camp?

8 A. The father was exchanged.

9 Q. And did you meet him later on?

10 A. No, I never met him.

11 Q. Do you know if he is alive or is he missing?

12 A. I don't know. I don't know. Right now, I don't know whether he's

13 alive.

14 Q. Witness, did you see -- is there anyone else in this group or was

15 it those you just mentioned? Do you recall anyone else?

16 A. No, not from that group, I can't remember now.

17 Q. And did you see -- what did you see happen to this group of

18 people? What did you actually see yourself?

19 A. I saw the same procedure. They were taken into the KP Dom, one by

20 one. After that, the procedure was the same: beatings, screams.

21 However, that took place in the other rooms and you could only hear the

22 sound. You could only hear the moans and cries of the people who were

23 being beaten.

24 Q. And when you say "the other rooms," from -- could you locate from

25 where the sounds came from, from which part of the administration

1 building?

2 A. From the central part of the administration building, from the

3 ground floor.

4 Q. When you say "central part," what is for you the central part in

5 relation to the entrance door? To the left or the right or around the

6 entrance door? What would it be?

7 A. If you look straight ahead from my dormitory, it is to the

8 left-hand side of the entrance door, the building that was facing the

9 canteen from the entrance door.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if we are going to have

11 troubles - and obviously the witness does have troubles on this, these

12 questions of geography - should we have the plan turned upside down for

13 him?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Because I think that it may be important. It's a

16 little bit difficult even for me, with a plan in front of me now, to work

17 out where he's referring to.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. With the help of the usher, would the

19 witness please be shown the Exhibit 6/1? I have it here. And please put

20 it upside down, so this way.

21 Q. So, would you please have a look at it, and point to us from where

22 you could hear the sounds? Maybe you could first show us the entrance

23 door so that we know that.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Could we start with his dormitory?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, okay.

1 Q. Please show us your dormitory first, where you were, where you

2 were. Were you --

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the - well, I have

4 it the wrong way around - at the buildings Zgrada BR 1.

5 Q. Witness, were you still in Room 11 when that happened?

6 A. Yes, yes, I was in Room 11.

7 Q. Where was the Room 11? It was above the magazine?

8 A. Part of the windows by the wall could have been by the warehouse.

9 The other dormitory, I'm sorry, not mine.

10 Q. Witness, would you now point to us the entrance door to the

11 administration building?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the --

13 JUDGE HUNT: He's pointing at where the door is. I think we can

14 agree with that.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

16 Q. And where did the sounds come from? Could you point the

17 direction?

18 A. These parts here, these parts of the building, from the ground

19 floor.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the two rooms

21 called Soba 1 and Soba 2. Yes. Thank you.

22 Q. How long did the -- how long did you hear the sounds of beatings,

23 from this other part of the building?

24 A. These people were taken out around 6.00 and 7.00, and then it went

25 on until late at night.

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1 Q. Did you hear anything else after the beating -- the sounds of

2 beating had stopped?

3 A. The same procedure like for the previous two groups: One bullet

4 was fired per person, and then, of course, shaking off the truck.

5 Q. And did you see any of these people you just listed again, or did

6 you hear of them again?

7 A. I never saw them, nor did I hear anything about them.

8 Q. Did you have contacts with any of the relatives of these

9 detainees?

10 A. Well, from those groups I only had contacts with the family of

11 Adil Granov.

12 Q. And what did -- to whom did you speak from this family and what

13 did you learn from them?

14 A. The mother, the wife, and the sister. And I found out that they

15 did not know anything about him either.

16 Q. Witness, was another group of detainees taken out?

17 A. Well, from this fourth group that you mentioned, the following

18 persons were also taken out: Paco Ismet, Sofradzija Mehmed, Dzano Hasan,

19 Dzendusic Ramo. I think that that's it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Dzelil

20 Alija also.

21 Q. I forgot to ask you, in relation to the third group, I forgot to

22 ask you: Who of these people were in your room, Room 11, at that time

23 when they were taken?

24 A. Islambasic Suad was in my dormitory out of the third group, also

25 Karahasanovic Ismet, Granov Adil. Because practically, after he

1 disappeared, I remained in his bed. I don't think there was anyone else

2 from my room.

3 Q. You have mentioned Paco Ismet. Who was he?

4 A. Paco Ismet is a mechanical engineer -- was a mechanical engineer

5 and was one of the directors in Focatrans.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is not on Schedule

7 C.

8 Q. Was he in your room when he was taken?

9 A. No. No, he was not in my room.

10 Q. And you mentioned Sofradzija Mehmed. Who was he?

11 A. Sofradzija Mehmed was a legal officer at the Municipal Assembly of

12 Foca.

13 Q. Does this person have a nickname?

14 A. Mesa.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned not on

16 Schedule C but on Schedule B-52.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

19 Q. You also mentioned Dzendusic Ramo. Who was he?

20 A. Dzendusic Ramo worked in the secretariat for National Defence.

21 Q. Was he in your room, in Room 11, when he was taken?

22 A. No. No, he was not in my room.

23 Q. And Sofradzija Mehmed, was he in your room when he was taken?

24 A. Sofradzija Mehmed was in Room 22. He was detained by himself.

25 Q. How do you know that?

1 A. Because I saw him at the window of that room.

2 Q. And Ismet Paco, was he in Room 11?

3 A. No, not Room 11. As far as Ismet Paco is concerned, I really

4 don't know what room he was in.

5 Q. You mentioned a person Dzelil Alija. Who was he?

6 A. Dzelil Alija was an economist. He worked in the Perucica Trading

7 Company.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is not on Schedule

9 C. Sorry. Just a second.

10 Q. Witness, you mentioned a Hasan Dzano. Who was he?

11 A. As far as Dzano Hasan is concerned, the only thing I know is that

12 he was from the village of Josanica and that he was a farmer.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is not on Schedule C

14 but under B-18.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

17 Q. Witness, do you know a Cedik [phoen] Zaim?

18 A. There's something wrong with the sound. Do you mean Zaim Cedic?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Zaim Cedic, yes, I know him well. Zaim Cedic had a degree in

21 law. He worked in the Sutjeska-Tjentiste National Park.

22 Q. Was he also taken in any of these groups?

23 A. Yes. Yes. He was in that fourth group.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is not on Schedule C

25 but on B-11.

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

3 Q. Witness, do you know a Rasim Kajgana?

4 A. Yes, I know Rasim Kajgana. Rasim Kajgana was the manager of a

5 shop in UPI.

6 Q. And was he taken away in any of the groups? Do you recall?

7 A. Yes. He was taken out in the fourth group.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under

9 B-32.

10 Q. Witness, what did you see in relation to the fourth group?

11 A. The procedure was the same like with the previous group. They

12 were taken in one by one; the same cries, the same moans, the same sounds

13 from the rooms I mentioned a few minutes ago.

14 Q. Which rooms? You mean the room that you could look into or the

15 room that you mentioned was in the centre of the administration?

16 A. The rooms that were in the central part of the administrative

17 building.

18 Q. And did you see all of them lining in front of the entrance or

19 only some?

20 A. Yes, yes. I certainly saw all of those who were lining up in

21 front of the entrance.

22 Q. Did you see any of them return, or did you hear of them or meet

23 them later on?

24 A. Not a single one of them has returned, nor do I know of their

25 fate.

1 Q. And did you later on meet relatives of any of these people that

2 you just mentioned?

3 A. Yes, yes. I had contact with the wife of Mehmed Sofradzija; with

4 a daughter and two sons of Ramo Dzendusic; with Ismet Karahasanovic's

5 brother; with the mother of Suad Islambasic; with the father of Zaim

6 Cedic; and I don't think that I had contact with others.

7 Q. And what did you learn from the relatives that you just

8 mentioned? What did they tell you or ask you?

9 A. They asked me absolutely whether I knew what happened to these

10 people. I did not tell any of these people about anything that I had not

11 seen myself. I told them that I just know that they were taken out and I

12 know nothing else, and they replied to me that they didn't know anything

13 either.

14 Q. During the previous statements that you gave to the Prosecutor's

15 Office, that is to the Prosecutor of this Tribunal, you also mentioned a

16 person Kemo Dzelilovic. What can you -- do you know of such a person?

17 A. Yes. I know Kemo Dzelilovic very well. He was a teacher at the

18 Foca high school.

19 Q. Did you see him at the KP Dom?

20 A. Yes. I saw him when we came to get meals and when we were

21 leaving.

22 Q. Did you see what happened to him?

23 A. He was also taken out among the others who I mentioned before.

24 Q. And do you recall in which group he was?

25 A. I think it was the first group.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under

2 C-7 and also B-19.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

5 Q. In your previous statement, you also mentioned a Juso Dzamalja.

6 Who was he and what did you see happen to him?

7 A. Juso Dzamalja was a retiree. I saw him as he came for meals and

8 left. As far as I know, Juso Dzamalja hanged himself in the premises of

9 the KP Dom.

10 Q. Did you see him being taken for beatings?

11 A. I could not see that, no.

12 Q. And in your previous statement, you also mentioned a person Omer

13 Mujezinovic. Who is that?

14 A. Omer Mujezinovic is from Ustikolina. I knew him because he was

15 not a normal person. Let me put it very simply: He was crazy.

16 Q. And did you see him in the KP Dom?

17 A. Yes, I saw him at the KP Dom.

18 Q. Was he in your room?

19 A. No, he was not in my room.

20 Q. What happened to him?

21 A. There were a few persons similar to Omer. There was Hakan

22 Hajdarevic, then Bunda and Culum. All of these men had mental problems.

23 One day, they called out their names and they took them in a direction

24 unknown to myself.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour this person Omer Mujezinovic is

1 mentioned under C-18 and B-42.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

4 Q. Witness, you also mentioned a person Ismet Deleut. I don't know

5 if I pronounced it properly.

6 A. Yes, yes, yes, I know him.

7 Q. Who was he, and what happened to him?

8 A. Ismet Deleut, I know that he was a farmer from the village of

9 Mazetici. I also know that he was taken to the isolation cell once and

10 never returned.

11 Q. Witness, this pattern of beatings, how did this affect you

12 personally?

13 A. Absolutely unpleasant. To begin with, those screams and those

14 blows, so the fierceness, the noise. I was all shaken. At times, I tied

15 my ears with a towel or whatever rag I could find just not -- just so as

16 not to listen to it all.

17 Q. Did you see detainees being beaten in the canteen or in the

18 kitchen?

19 A. Yes. I saw it in front of the canteen.

20 Q. When was that?

21 A. It was sometime in August.

22 Q. And who was beaten by whom?

23 A. As we would finish the lunch, we would line up in front of the

24 canteen and there was a guard, Predrag Stefanovic with us, from the

25 canteen one of the last ones or perhaps the last one, Nihad Pasovic,

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1 called Pace, came out of the canteen, and the above-mentioned guard

2 approached him and simply started to beat him, first kicking him in the

3 ankle, then slap him in the face and use his fists against him.

4 Q. Do you know why this guard beat Pace?

5 A. No. I don't know. I never knew that and I don't know it today.

6 Q. You said it happened in August. Which year?

7 A. 1992.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this is the incident 5.10 in the

9 indictment.

10 Q. Did you ever see detainees being beaten in the yard by soldiers or

11 policemen? I mean outsiders, not staff on KP Dom.

12 A. Yes, I saw that.

13 Q. When did this happen?

14 A. It happened sometime around the 31st of October, 1992, when a

15 group of inmates was to be exchanged and go to Konjic. We -- no, sorry,

16 Room 18 was having lunch at the time. It was around 1.00, perhaps 1.20.

17 And then five soldiers wearing cowboy clothes walked in, of course, with

18 their rifles on their shoulders, and two more of them stayed in the door,

19 behind the door. And they approached the inmates column and all five of

20 them began to beat whoever they could lay their hands on. And it went on

21 for about half an hour, and then they ordered everybody to lie down on the

22 ground. Mitar Rasevic naturally watched it all from the window. And

23 about 15 minutes later, he turned up in the KP Dom's yard, stood some ten

24 or 20 metres away from the column, and watched it in silence. And the

25 guards who guarded us, who saw us go to the canteen and back from the

1 canteen, they also just watched it in silence. Nobody did anything. But

2 it so happened when they stopped all this beating, they walked towards the

3 gate, and then a group of men was taken away. That is those who were to

4 be exchanged, and they would be escorted by those. Later on, I heard

5 those were policemen from Trebinje but I learned that later when I was

6 exchanged. And among the exchanged, (redacted) was one of

7 them, and he told me all that happened to them as they were taking them to

8 the place of exchange, how this group of soldiers ill-treated them, I mean

9 this same group of soldiers who had come to the KP Dom.

10 Q. Where were you when this incident occurred? From where did you

11 see it?

12 A. I was in Room 20, and we were lined up in the passage facing the

13 front door, waiting for our turn to go to lunch.

14 Q. And do you know -- can you name any of the victims of this

15 incident? Do you recall who was beaten?

16 A. Well, once again, it was by mishap. Nihad Pasovic fared worst.

17 Q. Was this the only time that you saw such an occurrence, that

18 soldiers or policemen from outside beat detainees in the yard?

19 A. It was the only time that I could see.

20 Q. In your previous statement that you gave to the Prosecutor's

21 office, you described this incident, but you mentioned that it was in

22 August 1992, and now you say it was in October 1992. Can you explain

23 that?

24 A. Listen, it has to do with the place of exchange. Two groups were

25 taken in August. One was taken to the area of Konjic and the other one to

1 the area of Kalinovik. The group that I mentioned on the 31st of October,

2 Konjic. And I must have -- not must have. I simply made a mistake with

3 the date, with the group of the 31st of August and the 31st of October,

4 which also went to be exchanged in Konjic. Now I'm positive and I'm sure

5 it was on the 31st of October.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the incident is listed in the

7 indictment under 5.8, but it seems to be a mistake. It seems to be that

8 it's the same incident like 5.13.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that I understand. You mean the

10 description is of what happened in 5.13 --

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Point 8. But the date, the date is wrong,

12 obviously, and we have this incident twice in the indictment. That is, at

13 least, what it looks like at the moment.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

16 Q. Witness, when you arrived in the KP Dom, how many detainees were

17 there already?

18 A. There were 570 detainees in the KP Dom.

19 Q. How do you know that? It's a very precise number.

20 A. Very precise and accurate, because as of the first day when I

21 arrived in my dormitory, number 20, with an inmate, we counted every day

22 how many men went to have breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and how many of

23 them came back. We could not know if there were people in isolation cells

24 and how many, but at that time that was the accurate number, 570

25 detainees.

1 Q. When you left the KP Dom 29 months and 16 days, as you said,

2 later, how many detainees were left at that time?

3 A. Sixty-one.

4 Q. And when you left, did any Muslim detainees stay behind or were

5 you the last group?

6 A. We were the last group, except that I and the first 50 were

7 exchanged on the 6th of October; and there was a group of 10 -- that is,

8 11 men at Kula, and they were exchanged ten days later in Sarajevo.

9 Q. Were detainees exchanged before that, and do you know if they all

10 were actually exchanged?

11 A. Yes, absolutely. There were exchanges at various times.

12 Q. And you have already mentioned that some of these people - you

13 have mentioned some by name - disappeared in such exchanges. What is your

14 estimation how many people disappeared in exchanges all together?

15 A. About 450 men disappeared through these exchanges. Four hundred

16 fifty-seven, to be accurate.

17 Q. How do you know that? How did you come to this precise figure?

18 A. Because I had and have a list of all those detained when I was

19 there; not the names of all the exchanged, but I have the numbers and I

20 have the number of the missing ones, bearing in mind the figure of 570 and

21 it varied between that and 752, because some were taken away and some were

22 brought in - it was like a shift - and according to some indicia, or

23 rather according to what I was told by those who had arrived there before

24 me, because a large number had been turned over in the KP Dom before me.

25 Because it was set up on the 6th or 8th of April, 1992, and I was brought

1 there on the 25th of May, so there was a month before that and there was

2 plenty of time to have a considerable turnover of people in those rooms,

3 so that I have a figure that there were -- that more than 1.000 men had

4 been at some time or other in the KP Dom in Foca.

5 Q. Witness, we do not need to go into the details of exchanges, but I

6 would like to know: From the 21 people you came together with to the KP

7 Dom, how many disappeared in exchanges? Do you know? Could you say?

8 A. Well, I can tell you that of 21 of us, 4, maybe 5, were exchanged,

9 and those others were never exchanged. If you want me, I can give you the

10 names of those exchanged.

11 Q. When you say "exchanged," do you mean who were alive, who you met

12 later, or what do you mean?

13 A. Yes, quite. Those who survived, those who were exchanged.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, can we have the

15 witness shown and put in front of him again the sheet P426.

16 Q. Witness, yes, but before you give us the names of those who

17 survived, could you please check in the list first. So if you find a name

18 on the list, please do not tell us the name, but the number. Yes,

19 please. Tell us who survived besides you.

20 A. Person under 8, under 109. Person 162 was brought from the same

21 area but was not in my group. Then Munib Karovic also survived, Nezir

22 Krdzdic from Srebrenica. And there are no more survivors.

23 Q. You mentioned that -- in the beginning you mentioned that you were

24 arrested together with Mr. Kameric and Mr. Babic. What happened to them?

25 A. Kameric and Babic were taken for one of the exchanges. I don't

1 know where and I don't know what happened to them.

2 Q. Did you contact the relatives or did the relatives of these two

3 contact you, and what did they tell you or ask you?

4 A. As for Abdulah Kameric, I spoke to his wife - she is in the same

5 place where I live now - and she also confirmed to me that she absolutely

6 had no information about him, just as I don't know anything.

7 Q. Witness, you have already described to us yesterday that you had

8 to clean the room where beatings had occurred. Did you have to work in

9 the KP Dom on other occasions as well?

10 A. Yes, I had to.

11 Q. When did you start working, and what did you work?

12 A. I began working so as to -- well, in a way, to hide. I began in

13 the farm, then in the bakery, the furniture factory, within the compound.

14 Later on I looked after lawns, flower lanes, and went to fell wood in the

15 forest, and suchlike.

16 Q. Did you have to work permanently in 1992?

17 A. In 1992 I did not have to work all the time, but I'm telling you:

18 That work that I did, they were concealing me from the Red Cross.

19 Q. We'll come to this later. And in 1993, did you have to work the

20 entire year 1993?

21 A. I had to work throughout 1993.

22 Q. You said that you had to work. Does that mean you were forced to

23 work or did you volunteer?

24 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. I would have never volunteered.

25 Q. You said that you were hidden, hidden. Why hidden? What do you

1 mean by that?

2 A. Whenever the Red Cross came - and I never knew about them. I

3 never knew they were coming - they would single out a group of 22 men, and

4 it would all happen so quickly in the morning hours and they would take us

5 to the bakery and we would spend the whole day in its cellar doing

6 nothing, just staring at that dust and that product which comes out of the

7 bakery. And that is how they would keep us the whole day until the

8 evening, until somebody would tell them that the Red Cross, if it had come

9 to visit, had completed the visit and left.

10 Q. Did you ever talk with one of the prison staff about why you were

11 always taken away when the Red Cross came?

12 A. No, no. I did not -- nobody would tell me that.

13 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with a person Gojko Jokanovic?

14 A. I did, yes, several times.

15 Q. What did you talk about?

16 A. Well, sometimes we talked about family matters, family problems,

17 about our relations, about medicines which I needed, and suchlike.

18 Q. You mentioned that a particular group of people were hidden from

19 the Red Cross. Did these detainees in this group have anything in common,

20 that made them particular?

21 A. Well, I think, if I -- I dare say it was prominent citizens of

22 Foca. That was one common feature, I think.

23 Q. Did you ever speak with Gojko Jokanovic about your group being

24 separated from others?

25 A. Yes. We asked him that. We did ask him.

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1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do not know what is the purpose of

4 this question. First the question was whether the witness talked with

5 Gojko Jokanovic. The witness said he discussed family matters with Gojko

6 Jokanovic and medicines, and then the third question again is whether with

7 Gojko Jokanovic. That is, it is a leading question, trying to make the

8 witness say something. The question was whether the witness talked with

9 Gojko Jokanovic, and the witness said, "We talked about family matters and

10 medicines." And then again there was a question whether he discussed a

11 group of people with Gojko Jokanovic. This is a leading question.

12 JUDGE HUNT: No, it is not a leading question. It is an attempt

13 to refresh his recollection, as I understand it. If there is something in

14 the statement that he gave, then counsel could have simply shown him his

15 statement and say, "Does that refresh your recollection about something

16 else you said, too?" It's not a leading question. Certainly, the

17 Prosecution or any counsel has to ensure that the witness has exhausted

18 his recollection before seeking to refresh it. And if that is your

19 objection, we might ask the Prosecution to proceed to do so. But it is

20 not a leading question. A leading question is one which suggests the

21 answer, and that one does not suggest the answer. It's purely refreshing

22 his recollection.

23 Seeing there has been an objection taken, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it

24 might be better if you sought to ensure that he can recall nothing else.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

1 JUDGE HUNT: And if there is a statement with this in it, you can

2 show it to him.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall -- did you have a conversation with Gojko Jokanovic

5 in relation to your particular group of 22 people that you mentioned?

6 A. Well, listen, there were times when I talked to him and when we

7 asked him whether he knew why we were separated. As far as I can

8 remember, his answer was that we were being prepared for some kind of an

9 exchange for big fish, as they called it.

10 Q. When did this conversation take place? Do you remember that?

11 A. Well, I could go and see Gojko when I was sick, I guess. And that

12 was not permitted, and that was not possible, actually, until after

13 August, 1992.

14 Q. Yes. Let us now talk about the prison structure. Who was the

15 warden before the war?

16 A. Before the war, the warden of the prison, of the KP Dom, was

17 Radojica Tesovic.

18 Q. Do you know him from before?

19 A. Yes, I knew him, because he was my pedagogy teacher in school.

20 Q. Who replaced him during your time of detention?

21 A. He was replaced by Milorad Krnojelac.

22 Q. Did you know Mr. Krnojelac from before the war?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. How well did you know him? Can you tell us what your relation

25 was?

1 A. Well, I knew him relatively well. We said hello to each other.

2 We would meet each other in town and (redacted), et cetera.

3 Q. Was Mr. Krnojelac involved in politics? In particular was he

4 involved in the SDS politics?

5 A. I can only make assumptions. I'm not sure. I assume he was.

6 Q. Let me ask you: Did you ever see him with -- on SDS rallies?

7 A. Well, I did not attend SDA -- SDS rallies, but I saw him in the

8 company of persons who were in and around the SDS.

9 Q. Which persons did you see him with?

10 A. Well, a few times I saw him in the company of teacher Kasalica;

11 once or twice perhaps in the company of Matovic, Vujadin; Cicovic, Velko;

12 Stankovic, he's a teacher too, Vojko, I think, yes; Jovo Stankovic, Zarko

13 Vukovic. I don't know. Perhaps I could remember other names too but I

14 have enumerated quite a few, haven't I?

15 Q. Yes. You said that you saw him in the company of SDS members or

16 people around the SDS. Those you just told us, these teachers, were they

17 SDS members? Do you mean these people?

18 A. Them specifically, too.

19 Q. How do you know that they were SDS members or around the SDS, as

20 you said?

21 A. Veljko Cicovic I had the opportunity of seeing him in a group

22 where SDS meetings were held, and also Vojko Stankovic. As for teacher

23 Kasalica, he publicly stated that he was SDS and that was well known in

24 town. Even the children whom he taught knew that as a matter of fact.

25 Q. When you saw Mr. Krnojelac in the company of these men, what were

1 they doing?

2 A. Well, they socialised. They usually went for a walk on the right

3 bank of the Drina, from the municipality building, and then over the

4 bridge. Sorry, the left bank, when you cross the bridge, actually.

5 Q. Did you see them attend rallies together, or political meetings?

6 A. No, I did not see that.

7 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Krnojelac in the company of high-ranking SDS

8 politicians?

9 A. Yes. I had the opportunity of seeing him in 1991, 1992, the end,

10 either just before the new year or after the new year, 1991, 1992. When I

11 was leaving the Ribarski restaurant with my deputy director, I saw

12 Mr. Krnojelac with Vojo Maksimovic, Velibor Ostojic, and there was another

13 person whom I did not recognise. I guess he was the driver.

14 Q. Where were you when you saw them? What were you doing at that

15 moment?

16 A. I had just finished this visit with my deputy director. We were

17 walking downstairs and my deputy director said hello to Vojo Maksimovic

18 and Velibor Ostojic. So did I. And then we each went our own way.

19 Q. And where were they going, this group of people, including

20 Mr. Krnojelac? Where were they going?

21 A. They entered the Ribarski restaurant.

22 Q. Did you see them arrive together?

23 A. Well, I can assume that they did arrive together because they were

24 very close to the car that was supposed to be taken back in order to be

25 parked. This was just by the steps leading to the Ribarski restaurant.

1 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac have a function in the reserve army, do you

2 know?

3 A. Yes. I know that he was a reserve captain.

4 Q. How do you know that?

5 A. Well, I saw him earlier on in that uniform, and in 1990 I had one

6 of my last exercises. As we were finishing up parts of this exercise, we

7 were in the hotel, we were all having lunch together. Mr. Krnojelac came

8 there together with Mr. Cancar -- I beg your pardon. At that time, that

9 man was head of defence in Foca. Of course, everybody was eating, and he

10 came with Luka, and he said, "I'm satisfied, everything is fine, and the

11 commander is satisfied as well." And Mr. Krnojelac also nodded his head

12 and said, "I am satisfied." At that time, I believed that he held the

13 post of commander of Territorial Defence.

14 Q. You yourself, did you have a function in the reserve army?

15 A. Yes. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 Q. And the exercise that you just mentioned, you said in 1990. Can

18 you be more specific when in 1990?

19 A. It's September. It was a rainy day. I remember. (redacted)

20 (redacted).

21 Q. And you said that you saw Mr. Krnojelac in the hotel. What hotel?

22 A. The Zelengora hotel.

23 Q. What was Mr. Krnojelac wearing when you saw him?

24 A. He was wearing a military uniform, of course, with the insignia

25 belonging to the rank that he had.

1 Q. And you mentioned this other person who was with him.

2 A. Luka Cancar.

3 Q. And what position did he have? Was he the commander you

4 mentioned?

5 A. Luka Cancar was the secretary of National Defence, as it was

6 called in later times.

7 Q. A local secretary or from the higher level?

8 A. Well, that's a person who doesn't wear a uniform. He was in

9 charge of defence affairs in the town of Foca.

10 Q. And you said that this person referred to the commander being

11 satisfied. Who was the commander who was satisfied?

12 A. Well, I'm telling you approximately. I assumed that since

13 Mr. Krnojelac said, "I am satisfied, thank you, thank you, I am

14 satisfied," I assumed that he was commander.

15 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac in this kind of uniform on other

16 occasions before the war?

17 A. Yes, I did, when there were exercises and preparations. I also

18 had to respond to such call-ups. I saw him in the premises of the

19 National Defence secretariat. He wore the uniform and insignia of a

20 captain. And I also had an address book of persons who held certain

21 posts. However, I did not have the exact post of Mr. Krnojelac, whether

22 he was commander of the Territorial Defence or whether he held a higher

23 post than that.

24 Q. When you say "address book," what kind of address book do you

25 mean?

1 A. An address book of all the active persons in conditions of war and

2 any other conditions that have to be called first and foremost and with

3 whom contact had to be established. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted). That is the speciality I had, and that is what I

6 trained for when I did my military service in Topcider, in Belgrade.

7 Q. And until the beginning of the war, was Mr. Krnojelac still in

8 this address book, or was he taken off, for whatever reason?

9 A. The address book that I had, if you want me to tell you, I'll tell

10 you that I had this at home, because I was allowed to have it at home. I

11 think that his name was never deleted from the list of responsible

12 persons, military persons, who had to be called up in cases when there was

13 an imminent danger of war, any kind of emergency, et cetera.

14 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac in the KP Dom?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. What was he wearing when you saw him?

17 A. He was wearing a military uniform.

18 Q. Did you see any rank insignia on this uniform?

19 A. I could not notice that because I really did not show any interest

20 in it either.

21 Q. How often did you see him in the KP Dom?

22 A. Well, not very often, but when we went for breakfast, during those

23 days when he just came in in June 1992, perhaps for about seven or ten

24 days, and later they probably changed the premises where breakfast would

25 be served.

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1 Q. Did you ever speak with Mr. Krnojelac while you were in the KP

2 Dom?

3 A. I did not speak with him, but I did meet him.

4 Q. When did you meet him, and where?

5 A. In the month of July, in front of Room 11. I was working on park

6 maintenance. Mr. Krnojelac came in with three or four men and he was

7 escorted by a guard. They entered my building. While he was returning, I

8 was so close to him that I said hello and I asked him for a cigarette, and

9 he just waved me off and said, "Get lost."

10 Q. Could you see if he recognised you?

11 A. Well, I don't know what he'll say, how much he does know me or

12 doesn't know me, but I believe that he did recognise me.

13 Q. What makes you believe that?

14 A. Well, because we were never in any close contact or did we have

15 any close conversations. Whatever happened was basically that we would

16 meet in the street and say hello to each other.

17 Q. You said he was with three or four men. Who were they? How were

18 they dressed and what were they doing?

19 A. These were persons who were dressed in military uniform, and later

20 I found out, or rather the guard told me that this was a delegation that

21 had come because the premises of the KP Dom were supposed to be renovated,

22 so they were touring them.

23 Q. And you said that it was in July. Which year?

24 A. 1992.

25 Q. Did you -- you mentioned when you saw Mr. Krnojelac. Did you see

1 him during daytime and night-time or only during daytime?

2 A. That day I saw him during daytime, and there were occasions when I

3 could see him at the window in the late night hours.

4 Q. Do you know where -- what window are you talking about?

5 A. The window of his office.

6 Q. Where was his office?

7 A. His office faced my building, in the administration building.

8 Q. On which floor was it?

9 A. The first floor, if I disregard the ground floor.

10 Q. Let me show you a photo. It's the Exhibit 18 photo, 7472. There

11 is a part of the administration building.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We do not have -- not so focused, please.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is showing -- can we have the

15 full photo so that I can count the windows? Yes. The witness is showing

16 onto the second floor, not counting the -- counting the ground floor as

17 the ground floor, is pointing at the second window from the left.

18 Q. What are you pointing at? What is it that you point out?

19 A. This.

20 Q. Yes. And what is it? What are you showing us? The window, what

21 is it? Can you point --

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. What window are you pointing at? What room is it?

24 A. Second floor.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Now the witness is pointing on the first

1 floor, one window below.

2 Q. What are you pointing at? What -- do you want to point out to us

3 the room, Mr. Krnojelac's office, or what are you pointing at, Witness?

4 A. You keep confusing me. I'm trying to get my math right. First

5 floor, second floor, and for you this is the second floor. And in your

6 words, the office was on the second floor.

7 Q. No. We are asking you. We are asking you. On which floor --

8 JUDGE HUNT: It's what we've been calling the second floor.

9 A. Absolutely. It is this floor and that window.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The witness is now pointing at the

11 second floor, second window from the left. Yes, thank you.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think in the transcript it would probably be

13 better to also say that it was the window shown in the plan of the room

14 where a number of other witnesses have identified as Mr. Krnojelac's

15 office; otherwise, every time we have to pull the photograph out to look

16 at it.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, you said that you saw him at the window. What was he

19 doing when you saw him at the window?

20 A. On one occasion I saw him, the window was open. He was smoking by

21 the window. He was walking by the window and smoking.

22 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Krnojelac at night-time at that window?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How often did you see him?

25 A. Perhaps twice or three times. He was not alone. One could always

1 notice the presence of other persons as well.

2 Q. When you saw Mr. Krnojelac, did he ever carry a weapon? Could you

3 see it?

4 A. I could not see that.

5 Q. Was the inner compound of the KP Dom mined?

6 A. Yes, it was mined.

7 Q. And did you see when it was mined?

8 A. Well, the compound of the KP Dom was mined sometime in July 1992.

9 Q. And who did this? Who actually laid the mines?

10 A. A group for mining came, a group of soldiers, of course. I

11 recognised Milun Milanovic, commander of that group; and Trojer Zelimir, a

12 miner; and a miner, Sajin, nicknamed Saja. I knew his name too, but I

13 can't remember it now. I recognised him as well.

14 Q. Was Mr. Krnojelac present while this happened, while the mines

15 were laid?

16 A. Yes, Mr. Krnojelac did accompany that group.

17 Q. Did you see him with this group?

18 A. Yes. Yes, I personally saw him with that group.

19 Q. What was he doing, if anything?

20 A. He talked. That I saw for sure. He was talking with Mr. Milun

21 Milanovic. He was moving his hand. I don't know what these movements

22 were related to, but you could see it.

23 Q. When was Mr. Krnojelac replaced?

24 A. Well, he was there about a year, so it was 1993, was it, until the

25 6th or 8th of June, 1993, something like that.

1 Q. Who replaced him?

2 A. Zoran Sekulovic came.

3 Q. Did the conditions change after Mr. Krnojelac was replaced?

4 A. They absolutely did.

5 Q. For the better or for the worse? In which way?

6 A. For the better. For the better. Although I had work duty, the

7 food was of much better quantity and you could get more than you could

8 during Mr. Krnojelac's time.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 11.00.

10 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 11.30.

11 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, while you were detained in the KP Dom, did you see a

16 person Savo Todovic?

17 A. Yes. I saw an individual called Savo Todovic.

18 Q. Did you know him from before the war?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness come closer to the microphone,

21 please?

22 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you move up closer to the microphone.

23 They are having difficulty hearing you.

24 A. I apologise.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

1 Q. Do you know what he did before the war, what work he did?

2 A. Before the war, he worked as a guard for a while. After that, I

3 know he was a civil servant in charge of labour affairs.

4 Q. While you were detained in the KP Dom, what was his function?

5 A. I will mention two functions that I know he discharged: In charge

6 of labour affairs and deputy warden in the KP Dom.

7 Q. How do you know that he was in charge of labour affairs? Did you

8 have dealings with him while you worked in the KP Dom?

9 A. Yes, yes, I did, true.

10 Q. And how do you know that he was the deputy warden?

11 A. I simply heard it from guards who guarded us, and people who

12 learned about it in a direct contact.

13 Q. When you saw him in the prison, what was he wearing?

14 A. A military uniform.

15 Q. And how often did you see him in the prison?

16 A. I saw him very often; not every day perhaps but very often.

17 Q. How did he treat the detainees? And in particular, how did he

18 treat you?

19 A. Well, let me begin with how he treated me. A list would come to

20 the dormitory, a list of persons to go to work, and I was one of them.

21 And after enter -- when I would enter the interior of the building, I

22 would meet him, and he'd give the guards a list of people, and the work

23 assignments.

24 Q. Did he ever mistreat you?

25 A. No, he did not beat me. He did abuse me verbally.

1 Q. In which way?

2 A. Well, once, when I failed to turn up at the -- in the mine for

3 work, the next morning, when I was called out again to go to work, and I

4 was really ill, and I risked it, I risked not to go to work, a guard came

5 to fetch me and said, "Savo wants to see you."

6 Q. Yes. And did you see Savo, and what happened?

7 A. Yes. I tried to complain to him, to tell him that I was ill and

8 so on and so forth, and he said, "This is not your former time nor your

9 former workplace, to do what -- as you please. You're going to work,

10 period."

11 Q. When was that that you had this conversation?

12 A. This conversation was in 1993, about the time when I started

13 working in the mine. So it was October, 1993.

14 Q. You said that you risked not to go to work. Why was it a risk?

15 A. Well, it was a risk because afterward, he could take -- they could

16 take me to the isolation cell and beat me as likely as not, as it happened

17 to other people, and I suppose there is something even worse after that.

18 Q. Do you recall to which people that actually happened? Do you

19 recall anyone?

20 A. Well, first if somebody gave up or could not go to work for a

21 reason, then he had to go to a doctor, if there was a doctor, or rather,

22 the medical technician, Gojko Jokanovic. And going to a doctor, that is,

23 a nurse, he would then control why did the one who did not want or could

24 not go to work go to see the doctor [as interpreted]. And I know how

25 Dedovic -- and I remember his first name too. I know he was a house

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1 painter. He refused that on a couple of times and he was taken away and

2 beaten in the isolation cell. Yes, Fehim Dedovic.

3 Q. You mentioned Mr. Rasevic already. What position did he have,

4 Mitar Rasevic?

5 A. Mitar Rasevic was guard commander in the camp security, or, to put

6 it simply, commander, as they called him.

7 Q. Did you see him in the prison on a daily basis?

8 A. Why, yes, I did, quite often.

9 Q. What did he wear when you saw him?

10 A. In a military uniform too, although at times he would change it

11 and put on the former uniform of the KP Dom.

12 Q. How did he treat the detainees?

13 A. Well, let me tell you specifically, and I will begin with myself.

14 I had some contact with him, but not contact of a kind that he would

15 persecute me. I was not persecuted by him, and I do not know that he

16 persecuted others. I did not see that.

17 Q. What do you mean by "persecuted"?

18 A. Whether he persecuted, whether he was after other people, whether

19 he was the one who assigned or tortured or beat people, I do not know

20 that.

21 Q. Did you ask him for help and did he help you?

22 A. I did ask for help when I needed medicines when I contracted

23 pneumonia, and he answered, "You know well where you are. You know what

24 times are these and that medicines cannot be provided."

25 Q. The guards, were they the former prison guards?

1 A. Well, those whom I knew, and other people who knew them, yes,

2 absolutely, all the former guards of the KP Dom.

3 Q. And what did they wear? What kind of clothing?

4 A. Most of them wore military uniforms.

5 Q. Throughout your detention or did this vary?

6 A. Some of them would change into the old KP Dom uniform, but not all

7 of them.

8 Q. When did you leave the KP Dom? On what day?

9 A. On the 4th of October, 1994.

10 Q. Who was present when you left the KP Dom?

11 A. Mitar Rasevic was present, and a group of guards who searched our

12 affairs, our belongings.

13 Q. What were they searching for?

14 A. First we were told what we should not take out of the KP Dom, if

15 we had any books, if we had appropriated, taken something from the KP Dom,

16 and at times we made some ornamental boxes or cigarette holders, and they

17 would seize it all.

18 Q. You said when you left the KP Dom there were 61 people. Were they

19 all together with you? Did they all leave together with you the KP Dom?

20 A. Yes, they left with me, all of them, yes.

21 Q. And where were you taken?

22 A. They took us to a place called Kula, near Sarajevo.

23 Q. Did any of the camp staff accompany you on the bus -- on the

24 vehicle you went?

25 A. Yes. Mitar Rasevic came along and a policeman from the town

1 police.

2 Q. And how -- in which vehicle were you taken to Kula?

3 A. In a bus.

4 Q. The driver, what was he wearing? Do you recall?

5 A. Yes. I remember it very well. He had a military uniform.

6 Q. And were you actually exchanged on that 4th of October?

7 A. No. We were not exchanged on that 4th of October.

8 Q. What happened?

9 A. When we arrived, on the right, to the right, there was a police

10 outpost at Kula, and that was the first time for me to visit the area. On

11 the left-hand side were the premises where detainees were kept. And our

12 bus was to enter the yard of those premises, presumably to put us into one

13 of those rooms. However, no sooner did we stop on a platform in front of

14 those rooms, a police car arrived -- than the police car arrived with

15 three armed soldiers and threatened the driver and ordered, "Turn back.

16 Who ordered to do this without me?" And that is the real voice and his

17 real words.

18 Q. Who was that person who ordered --

19 A. I did not recognise him because he had a long beard, a beret, and

20 at that moment, I could not recognise him. So the bus turned round and he

21 sat in the police car with a driver and that other individual, and went in

22 front of the bus and took us back in the direction of Foca, to a place

23 called Miljevina.

24 Q. What did Mitar Rasevic do?

25 A. Mitar Rasevic was in the police administration. He had stayed

1 behind, presumably to negotiate our further fate or the exchange, and they

2 would not allow him to return on the bus. He just stayed behind.

3 Q. You said they would not allow him. Who would not allow him to

4 enter -- re-enter the bus?

5 A. This group that was in the police car. Three men.

6 Q. Where were you taken?

7 A. They took us in the direction, Trnovo, Rogoj, Dobro Polje,

8 Miljevina.

9 Q. How was this matter actually resolved?

10 A. And after a long wait, sometime around 7.00 or 8.00 in the

11 evening, it lasted until then, and the new warden of the KP Dom from Foca,

12 Zoran Sekulovic, came with a driver, and with the command of that

13 locality, because Miljevina is not much a town so I call it a locality.

14 So with the command of that locality, he conducted negotiations.

15 Q. And were you returned on the same day to Kula, after these

16 negotiations?

17 A. Yes. We were taken back to Kula, around 8.00 in the evening. We

18 left Miljevina.

19 Q. And when were you released or exchanged? On which day?

20 A. On the 6th of October, between half past 7.00 and 8.00.

21 Q. Your time of detention in the KP Dom, we have already discussed

22 the physical consequences of this. Did your detention affect your

23 psychological health?

24 A. Yes, indeed, very much so.

25 Q. In which way?

1 A. Because when I arrived to a place where I live in, I had to

2 undergo psychiatric treatment.

3 Q. What effects, what mental effects, did you notice on you? Why did

4 you go to a psychiatrist?

5 A. I did not feel up to making independent movements. At times my

6 thinking capacity was at a level of a child. I needed somebody to escort

7 me, to accompany me into the street. I could not move about

8 independently.

9 Q. How long did you -- were you treated for this mental condition?

10 A. Well, from, I should say, beginning of 1995 until the summer of

11 1996, I was under constant supervision, and even now I often have to ask

12 for a psychiatrist.

13 Q. Why do you still now need counselling? What affects you?

14 A. Frequent headaches and this lack of stability, that never stops.

15 Even now I have a problem. I cannot stand for more than 15 minutes or to

16 walk for one hour. It is simply too difficult for me.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, these are the questions of the

18 Prosecution.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Bakrac?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

22 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Mihajlo Bakrac and I am one of

23 the counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. I have to ask you something. It was much easier during the

1 examination in chief because my learned friend speaks a different language

2 so there was a time between the question and answer. But you and I speak

3 the same language and this could cause some problems. So will you please,

4 when you hear my question, wait a while for it to be interpreted, and then

5 to answer, to make the work of interpreters easier and to make it easier

6 for the Chamber to follow the cross-examination?

7 So, sir, are you still the president of the club of detainees of

8 the KP Dom in that place, in a state where you live in?

9 A. Yes, I am.

10 Q. And when did you become the president of the detainees

11 association?

12 A. In August, 1995.

13 Q. And between August, 1995 -- or when did you communicate -- did you

14 have contact with the detainees from the KP Dom before that date?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. Did you have contact with KP Dom detainees and discuss the KP Dom

17 and conditions there before you gave a statement to the OTP?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Are you quite sure? Did you, in your statement to the OTP, you

20 say that you communicated with people and discussed with them the

21 conditions in the KP Dom?

22 A. At the time when I gave my statement, I did not have an

23 opportunity to talk to -- to talk with detainees because I did not know

24 where -- I did not know their whereabouts.

25 Q. Then I will read to you an excerpt from your statement which you

1 gave to the Prosecution, that is to the investigators of the OTP, on the

2 20th of May, 1996:

3 "I maintain contact with other detainees of the KP Dom. We meet

4 from time to time to refresh our memories."

5 Is it true? Did you state that?

6 A. Yes, it is true, but I think the year is not correct, because in

7 1995 -- I think it was 1995 that I gave my first statement.

8 Q. But did you then give them yet another statement?

9 A. I cannot be sure about the time frame. And what I said in that

10 statement, it was all based on my recollection, absolutely.

11 Q. Sir, but I'm asking you: Did you give another statement or not,

12 in 1996? Did you give a statement to the OTP in 1996? The date does not

13 matter.

14 A. Yes, I did give a statement in 1996.

15 Q. Is it true that you said what I have just read to you, that you

16 were meeting other detainees from the KP Dom and that you were talking

17 with them? Is it true or is it not true?

18 A. I did meet and I did talk with detainees from the KP Dom, but I'm

19 quite sure I did not do that prior to the statement.

20 Q. But at the time when the statement was taken from you, you stated:

21 "I maintain contact with other KP Dom detainees. We meet from time to

22 time to talk about our memories." That is what you stated at the time

23 when you gave the statement.

24 A. Yes, and I stand by it.

25 Q. So a while ago you did not tell me the truth when you said you did

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1 not communicate before the statement. Now you tell us that you did.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Objection, Your Honour. The witness had, I

4 think, clearly said that when he gave the first statement in 1995, he did

5 not communicate with the other detainees, and he did not say that for

6 1996, so I think the Defence counsel has to be very specific.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Just let me look at the transcript. He said

8 that -- he's asked: "And between August 1995 - or when did you

9 communicate - did you have contact with the detainees from the KP Dom

10 before that date?" That's always 1995. And the answer is: "I did."

11 "Did you have contact with KP Dom detainees and discuss the KP Dom and

12 conditions there before you gave a statement to the OTP?" "No." "Are you

13 quite sure?"

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the witness is referring to his

15 first statement, but Defence counsel is referring to the second statement,

16 because he's reading from the statement from 1996.

17 JUDGE HUNT: There were so many dates being put to him, I'm afraid

18 I lost the thread of it.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission --

20 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. Well, Mr. Bakrac, I think the

21 complaint is justified, because when you put to him that he was not

22 telling the truth, you have not identified when. If you are saying that

23 he has said that he didn't communicate with them, you have to point out

24 which particular statement you're referring to, and that question of yours

25 does not fairly identify the particular statement you are referring to.

1 He said in the second statement, didn't he, that he had met from time to

2 time to talk about their memories, and that was in the second statement.

3 Why does that lead to a suggestion that he's telling lies, when he gave

4 his first statement he said he hadn't talked about these memories?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please allow me to

6 rephrase my question. The witness replied that he did not talk at all

7 when I mentioned the statement of 1996 to him. However, with your

8 permission, I'm going to make this clearer.

9 JUDGE HUNT: He said: "At the time I gave my statement," and at

10 that stage you're talking about the first one, "I did not have an

11 opportunity to talk with detainees because I did not know their

12 whereabouts." That's at the time of the first statement. And he then

13 concedes -- well, he states later on he has talked to them, in his second

14 statement, but his second statement is not inconsistent with the first.

15 Now, if you want to suggest to him that he has spoken to the others before

16 he gave his first statement, you go ahead and do so, but there is nothing

17 that he has said so far to suggest that he has.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let us not use too much

19 time for this. I'm sorry, but I can't look at the transcript as well, but

20 I think that I asked in terms of 1996. I didn't ask about the date. But

21 allow me to proceed, and let's try to clarify it some other way through

22 different questions. Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. (redacted)?

2 A. I cannot answer that.

3 Q. (redacted),

4 were you in contact with detainees?

5 A. In 1995 I did not have an opportunity to talk to detainees from

6 Foca, but I did talk to detainees from elsewhere.

7 Q. Is it correct that you gave your first statement on the 21st and

8 22nd of October, 1995?

9 A. I do not recall the date, but I did give a statement in 1995.

10 Q. Can I refresh your memory if I gave you your statement and if you

11 look at your signature and the date?

12 A. There is no need for you to give me anything. I absolutely

13 remember having given a statement in 1995, and the date doesn't matter to

14 me.

15 Q. It doesn't matter to you, perhaps, but it does matter for the

16 Defence. Do you agree that you gave it on the 21st and 22nd of October,

17 as it says on the statement itself?

18 A. I already mentioned that I really do not remember the date.

19 Q. It is correct, though, that in August 1995

20 (redacted)?

21 A. That's correct. I beg your pardon. Your Honour, may I just

22 clarify a minute detail? When I told you that (redacted)

23 (redacted), I told you that at that time I had

24 not had any data, nor did I have an opportunity to meet with detainees of

25 the KP Dom, because in that area of mine, at that time, I could not know

1 where they were, nor could I register them.

2 Q. When did you first see Safet Avdic?

3 A. That is my private affair.

4 Q. If I am going to mention other detainees to you, will that also be

5 your private affair? Let's not waste any time with that, then.

6 A. Absolutely. Safet Avdic is not in my area, so I saw him

7 privately.

8 Q. When did you make notes about what you remembered in the KP Dom?

9 When did you do this in writing?

10 A. December 1994.

11 Q. Is it correct that you said that you did this so that you would

12 not forget? Is it correct that then you remembered what had happened the

13 best?

14 A. Among other things, I made an outline of events so that I would

15 not forget them, and later on I complemented that outline with my

16 memories.

17 Q. The psychological problems that you have now, do they make it

18 difficult for you to remember some things or make it easier for you to

19 remember some things?

20 A. Absolutely they do not help me.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Both of you are forgetting to pause. Just give the

22 interpreters a chance, please.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise for the

24 interpreters and to you. I was the one who warned the witness and I was

25 the first to violate what I had said myself, but I'll try to pay

1 attention.

2 Q. Will you agree with me that in 1994 you recalled events from 1992

3 and 1993 better than you do today?

4 A. Well, in 1994, I could do it better than now, because this problem

5 is not present in my mind all the time, but then my memory could have been

6 better.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. I shall go back to the structure of the KP Dom

8 and your second statement given in May 1996. You talked about certain

9 persons who were employed, in your opinion, at the KP Dom. Is it correct

10 that you said the following concerning Savo Todovic:

11 "He was actually in charge of the camp. He commanded the guards

12 and issued orders to detainees. He lined us up in the prison yard. He

13 threatened us. He ordered us to work. Among the guards, there were some

14 who were more moderate and who talked to us. They told us that Todovic

15 was in charge of running the camp."

16 Is that what you stated?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Did you also say in another paragraph, referring to

19 the organisers of what had happened: "I think that the prison camp was

20 under military command"?

21 A. Yes. I found out about that from the guards who were employed

22 there.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you know a person called Gojko Jankovic?

24 A. I know Gojko Jankovic quite well.

25 Q. In the same statement, in the last paragraph -- or rather in the

1 last sentence of that paragraph that I've just quoted to you, did you say,

2 "On this occasion, Gojko Jankovic told me that nothing can happen to the

3 prisoners without the order of the military command"?

4 A. Yes. That is what Gojko Jankovic said.

5 Q. Thank you. When you left the KP Dom, or rather Kula, and when you

6 were exchanged, did you report to a doctor in Sarajevo?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you examined?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Are you sure about that?

11 A. 99.9 per cent.

12 Q. I'm going to read part of your statement that you gave to the OTP

13 in 1996. "In Sarajevo after I was released, I could not get any medical

14 care. There were too few doctors and they were too busy." Is that

15 correct, or is what you're saying now correct?

16 A. That is correct. And what's the problem with this?

17 Q. I'm putting a question to you and I'm asking you, did you receive

18 medical care? And you said a few minutes ago that you did get that kind

19 of care in Sarajevo, 99 per cent. Or what is true? Is that true or what

20 you said in your statement to the OTP in 1996?

21 A. I'm telling you that I got the medication that I had requested.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Please pause before the answer. You were well ahead

23 of the interpreters then.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You said to me that you were examined by a doctor and that you're

1 99 per cent sure of that. In the statement you said that there were no

2 doctors, that they were too busy, and that you could not get medical

3 care. So what is true out of these two options?

4 A. What is true is that I could not be examined in detail. As I told

5 you, I just got medication for the things that I complained about.

6 Q. From whom did you get this medication?

7 A. Of course I got a doctor's prescription.

8 Q. You were not examined but a doctor gave you medication? How did

9 he know what he was supposed to give you?

10 A. I think that it was sufficient for him when I told him about my

11 previous pneumonias.

12 Q. And the doctor, without having examined you, gave you medication

13 in response to what you told him, that you had had pneumonia?

14 A. If you really want me to give you a specific answer, this is a

15 doctor of my family.

16 Q. Why did you not mention him in your statement? You said that you

17 could not have been examined at all.

18 A. I did not consider that to be important at all.

19 Q. Thank you. When you came to (redacted)- oh, I beg your pardon. I

20 do apologise. I don't know whether --

21 JUDGE HUNT: Just go on. It will be redacted.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].

23 Q. When you went to the state and town where you live now, did you go

24 to see a doctor in 1994?

25 A. In 1994, I did not have an opportunity to do that because I came

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1 towards the end of 1994.

2 Q. In the statement that you said that you gave, you said the

3 following: "When I came to" -- oh, I'm sorry. I do apologise.

4 JUDGE HUNT: You are so enthusiastic, Mr. Bakrac, that you get

5 carried away. We understand your enthusiasm. We do wish you would try to

6 pause. Thank you.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do agree, Your Honour, and I do

8 apologise. I do hope that I have your understanding.

9 Q. "When I arrived" to the country where you live now, "in December,

10 1994, I went to a doctor so that he could examine me, but the doctor did

11 not find anything physically wrong." Is it correct that you stated this?

12 A. That is correct. That is correct. In December, in December, I

13 went to see a doctor because they suggested that to me in the institution

14 where I'm registered.

15 Q. When did you start seeing a psychiatrist professionally?

16 A. In 1995, beginning, mid-April, I think.

17 Q. Do you have records with your psychiatrist and do you have a

18 diagnosis?

19 A. The institution that is supposed to have it does have it.

20 Q. Does an institution have one or not?

21 A. Yes, yes. I do have a diagnosis.

22 Q. Can you tell us what this diagnosis is?

23 A. Believe me, I don't know how to translate this.

24 Q. You don't know what is your ailment -- what your ailment is?

25 A. I just know that these are psychological and nervous disorders.

1 Q. What kind of medication are you taking, sir?

2 A. I'm going to translate this for you in terms of the medicine that

3 is used in our country. Apaurin. That is normal type of medicine that I

4 use until the present day.

5 Q. Is that the only medication you are taking?

6 A. That's what I'm taking right now. But as for the medicine that I

7 received before, believe me, I can't remember. All of this is in a

8 foreign language and I do not know it.

9 Q. You said during the examination in chief, when you were questioned

10 by my learned friend, that you talked to Gojko Jankovic. Did you ever

11 mention that in your previous statements?

12 A. I think I did.

13 Q. Are you sure about that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you mention that you talked to him about what you remembered

16 just now, all of a sudden, that you were hiding in the bakery from the

17 International Red Cross?

18 A. I talked to Gojko Jokanovic about these things as well,

19 absolutely, about private matters as well.

20 Q. Did you mention that in the statements you gave to the OTP?

21 A. I think I did. I think I did.

22 Q. If I tell you that you did not?

23 A. Then I think my memory fails me.

24 Q. Thank you. When my learned colleague asked you about what you had

25 discussed with Gojko Jokanovic, you said "family matters and tablets."

1 How come you did not remember to say that you also talked about a group

2 being hidden from the International Red Cross?

3 A. I think that I mentioned that situation as well.

4 Q. No. The Prosecutor asked you what did you discuss with Gojko

5 Jokanovic. You said, "We talked about family matters and about tablets

6 that I should receive."

7 A. My present day -- that is my present-day memory, my memory of the

8 past few years, and that led me to know that I discussed these matters

9 with Gojko as well.

10 Q. Thank you. You also spoke, just before the cross-examination

11 started, about having seen the accused in 1990 in the Hotel Zelengora,

12 just after a military exercise. Where was this military exercise?

13 A. This military exercise was taking place in the territory of the

14 municipality, in the area of the hill of Preljuca, Godjen. At that time I

15 was stationed at the signals centre that was in the former Foca MUP.

16 Q. Does that mean that you were not out in the field?

17 A. Absolutely. My role and what I did at that time meant that I

18 should not be in the field.

19 Q. Were you in military uniform?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Are you sure that this was 1990?

22 A. I'm sure.

23 Q. What were you on the reserve force?

24 A. I was a first class corporal.

25 Q. What post did you hold?

1 A. (redacted).

2 Q. Within what?

3 A. (redacted).

4 Q. Within the Territorial Defence or what?

5 A. The Territorial Defence, absolutely.

6 Q. So you were -- you held that post and you don't know who the

7 commander of the Territorial Defence of Foca was?

8 A. I was never interested in that, nor did I have to know who it was.

9 Q. You are (redacted) and you were not interested in knowing who

10 the commander of the Territorial Defence was, and you did not need to know

11 that?

12 A. The address book, all priorities, all the establishment of

13 communications, all of this was done through the teleprinter men. And the

14 head, the commander, of the teleprinter platoon was the -- squad, was the

15 only one who owned -- who had that at the time. The head of the

16 teleprinter men at that time. I did not look at this ever, nor was I

17 interested in that.

18 Q. Do you know the name Sulejman Pilav?

19 A. Sulejman Pilav? I know that name.

20 Q. Is his name in your address book?

21 A. Sulejman Pilav carried out duties for the Territorial Defence

22 headquarters.

23 Q. What kind of duties for the Territorial Defence headquarters?

24 A. Military duties, of course.

25 Q. And which post did he hold?

1 A. I don't know whether he was called commander of the Territorial

2 Defence. This is not clear to me. But a person from the reserve force

3 who was commander of the Territorial Defence was absolutely a person from

4 the reserve force of the military.

5 Q. You say that in the address book, the name of Milorad Krnojelac

6 stood there. What else did it say by the name?

7 A. There was the name, surname, and also a secret sign.

8 Q. And what about the rest? What did the address book say?

9 A. Well, the same thing, also this secret sign, secret signal.

10 Q. You said that, as opposed to the others, you did not have the

11 details of Milorad Krnojelac.

12 A. I did have the name and surname.

13 Q. So what is it that you did not have?

14 A. I did not have the post that he held, and if I tell you that I

15 (redacted) for commanders only, he was absolutely on the list

16 of the commanding staff.

17 Q. And what about the others, then? You had additional data about

18 them, if I understand you correctly?

19 A. I don't know who the others are that you're referring to.

20 Q. You said that Milorad Krnojelac was in your address book but

21 without any other details being given. Was everybody else that way,

22 without any other details?

23 A. Sir, you did your military service, I'm sure. I don't know how

24 much you know about telephones and teleprinters. Everything that is done

25 in terms of telephones and teleprinters is done in Morse code or in codes

1 in general.

2 Q. I really do not see any relation between my question and your

3 answer. You made a distinction when you talked about the address book.

4 You said that you did not have any details concerning Milorad Krnojelac

5 but that his name was in the book. I'm asking you what else you had about

6 the others and how did Milorad Krnojelac differ from the others in your

7 address book.

8 A. The address book that I had contained the following details:

9 name, surname, address, and telephone number of the persons that were

10 supposed to be called in the greatest emergencies, and absolutely in that

11 address there was also Mr. Krnojelac's name.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, may I suggest that you try to speak a

13 little bit more slowly. You see, your last question was a very long one,

14 and the interpreters were having a terrible time keeping up with you. I'm

15 told that I speak too quickly as well, so we're on good company, but you

16 should really try to go more slowly, please.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I will. My

18 apologies to you, my apologies to the interpreters.

19 Q. So if I understand you, you only had Milorad Krnojelac's name,

20 that is, first and last name, and that was all, is it?

21 A. Yes. During the drill, with the secret code number.

22 Q. And tell us, did other people of Muslim origin participate in the

23 drill too?

24 A. Unfortunately, in my platoon there was only one Muslim and ten

25 Serbs.

1 Q. Do you mean that the Muslims did not make part of the reserve

2 force?

3 A. No, I can't say that, nor did I pay much attention to it at the

4 time, absolutely. But the specialities, the services at the time, it

5 simply turned out that that was the composition.

6 Q. Tell me, what rank did Mr. Krnojelac have in the reserve force?

7 A. A captain.

8 Q. And how do you know that?

9 A. I know it because I used to see him in a military uniform even

10 before that. And that day when we were at lunch, absolutely, the rank of

11 a captain, absolutely. I am very familiar with ranks.

12 Q. And you really remember, and it stuck in your memory what rank he

13 had in 1992. Why was it important to you?

14 A. It was important to me because it was the first time that my unit

15 participated in such a drill. Before that, I would only have a couple of

16 men with whom I underwent additional training in telephone operation.

17 Q. You mentioned Mr. Luka Cancar. If I understood you, he was the

18 secretary of the National Defence Secretariat, is it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What does the National Defence have to do with the Territorial

21 Defence? Will you explain it, please?

22 A. Luka Cancar attended all those drills, and he absolutely had to do

23 with it as the secretary of the National Defence Secretariat. I think

24 they were duty-bound to attend such activities.

25 Q. Tell us, who was your superior in the Territorial Defence system?

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1 A. My superior was the National Defence Secretariat.

2 Q. And who was the individual who was your superior?

3 A. My superior was Luka Cancar.

4 Q. Did he have a rank?

5 A. I would not know, because I never saw that man wear a military

6 uniform.

7 Q. We mentioned Sulejman Pilav. Did he have a rank?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Did you see him in a military uniform ever?

10 A. I did, but I don't know his rank.

11 Q. So you did not notice his rank, but you remember that in 1990 you

12 did remember Milorad Krnojelac's rank?

13 A. With Sulejman Pilav, I never happened to be in the company or near

14 Sulejman Pilav, so it wasn't interesting for me, nor was I curious to know

15 Milorad Krnojelac's rank, but I simply saw it and it stuck in my memory.

16 And as for Sulejman, I saw him -- I may have seen him in passing, meeting

17 him in the police station wearing a uniform, but I just never happened to

18 notice it.

19 Q. Thank you, sir, but did subordinate officers have to salute their

20 superiors?

21 A. Under normal circumstances when you do your military service, but

22 here I did not really see that it was really much of a duty.

23 Q. So you did not salute superior officers ever?

24 A. No, because I was not ever lined up or be part of a line-up. I

25 was in a situation when I would have to summon my men and work with my

1 men, and that was it.

2 Q. And do the subordinate ranks -- are the subordinate ranks

3 duty-bound to salute their superiors in passing?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. Did you, in the first statement that you gave to

6 OTP investigators, mention individuals, members of the SDS, and is it

7 correct that you then said that they attended meetings held in teacher

8 Svetislav Petkovic's flat? The teacher's nickname was Miso.

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. Is it correct that you mentioned Maksimovic, Ostojic, Cancar,

11 Stanic, Ivanovic, Stevanovic, Kovac, Gojko Jokanovic as members of the

12 SDS?

13 A. Yes, it is correct.

14 Q. Why, then, when you spoke about the SDS in their meetings at this

15 teacher's, you never mentioned Mr. Krnojelac, having seen him with one of

16 those men ever - wait till I finish my question and wait for it to be

17 interpreted - and why did you ever [as interpreted] mention that you saw

18 him in front of the Ribarski restaurant? These are your statements of

19 1995 and 1996.

20 A. On one occasion in 1991, Mr. Petkovic's flat, it was far from my

21 offices, some 50 metres, and I was coming back from breakfast. There was

22 a coffee shop in the immediate vicinity. And in front of Miso Petkovic's

23 apartment three cars stopped. It was 10 or 15 metres away from me. And

24 Vojo Maksimovic, Velibor Ostojic, Miro Stanic got off that car. In the

25 second car was the driver - I remember him. I knew him as a waiter -

1 Vreco Ivanovic, Gojko Jokanovic, and I went on my way and entered my

2 offices.

3 Q. That is what you stated, but I'm asking you: When you spoke about

4 this, you also spoke about Mr. Krnojelac, but you never once mentioned

5 that you saw him in front of the Ribarski restaurant in the company of SDS

6 activists.

7 A. This is my more -- this is what I remembered more recently,

8 absolutely.

9 Q. Thank you. Is it also correct that in your first statement you

10 said that you saw Milun Milanovic order soldiers to put mines around the

11 KP Dom?

12 A. Yes, it is true, since he was the chief.

13 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with the name of Radojica

14 Mladjenovic?

15 A. Yes, I am.

16 Q. Do you know what duty he held on the eve of the war?

17 A. He was the mayor of the municipal government -- he was the

18 president of the municipal government.

19 Q. Do you know if persons of Muslim origin were distributed weapons

20 in Donje Polje on the eve of the conflict?

21 A. I'm not aware of that.

22 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you said that in the KP Dom you

23 met Milorad Stevanovic, called Sumar. What was he doing in the KP Dom

24 when you saw him there?

25 A. He had been taken in as a detainee.

1 Q. Thank you. When you spoke about rooms that you had been in, you

2 said that there were 72 detainees in Room 11. How many detainees were

3 there in Room 20?

4 A. I think with figures in rooms I could be mistaken, absolutely. I

5 could be wrong. There could have been some 50 to 60 people in Room 20.

6 Q. Thank you. You said that persons of Serb origin were also

7 detained in the KP Dom. You also said that they were in the room above

8 your Room 20. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. And how many floors were there above your Room 20?

11 A. One.

12 Q. Will you agree that that is Room 22?

13 A. Well, if you follow some logic, if you have number 16 at the

14 bottom of the building and 18 on the first floor, my Room 20, then yes,

15 above me would be Room 22.

16 Q. Thank you. When you spoke about your arrest in Montenegro, you

17 mentioned that 25 individuals of Muslim origin were arrested in Bar. Were

18 some of them released?

19 A. Of 21, 22 individuals who were arrested in Pluzine, in the police

20 station, Remzija - I believe his last name is Dugonjic - stayed behind.

21 That is, he was released. He did not go to Foca with us.

22 Q. I will read to you what you said --

23 A. No, no, no, no, no. I have something else to say. And Sadik

24 Demirovic, from Trebinje. And about him I heard that he had left and was

25 to be exchanged in Montenegro for 50.000 marks.

1 Q. I will read to you only a small part of your statement that you

2 gave to the OTP:

3 "I was one of 25 Muslims who were arrested and brought to the

4 police station that day. I was in the police station between the 21st and

5 the 23rd of May. Only Ibrahim Celimovic [phoen] was taken for an

6 interview for five minutes. Then a policeman with a list came and called

7 out the following names: Abdulah Kameric, Ramiz Babic, Sefko Kubat, Sacir

8 Redzo --"

9 JUDGE HUNT: You're going too fast. If you could give the

10 interpreters the paragraph number or page number, it would help.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, let me just

12 explain. It was with the best of intentions. I'm trying to spend as

13 little time as possible, but it seems that we are spending too much time

14 because of all these warnings and repeated reading. So that I will do my

15 best to slow it down. It is page 4 in B/C/S, the statement of 21st and

16 22nd of October, 1995.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. "So Abdulah Kameric, Ramiz Babic, Sefko Kubat, Sacir Redzo and my

20 name. We were told that we would stay there and the others were

21 released."

22 Is that correct?

23 A. Yes. All of it is correct.

24 Q. Did you perhaps make some assumptions why all those others were

25 released and why only five of you were kept?

1 A. Well, my assumption was - and I believe I spoke about it - was

2 that those who were in that group of 25, that Mr. Stefanovic did not know

3 them sufficiently well, and that he picked out precisely those amongst us

4 whom he knew.

5 Q. And did you mention this reason to the OTP?

6 A. I think I did.

7 Q. You told the OTP that you thought you had been picked out as

8 prominent men whom they believed participating in the SDA activities in

9 Foca. That is at variance with what you told us today.

10 A. Yes. That fact is true.

11 Q. According to the examination in chief, you spoke about the food in

12 KP Dom, and you said that you believed that there was food in Foca. If

13 you left Foca for Montenegro on the 12th of April and were brought

14 directly from Montenegro to the KP Dom, where you were between the 25th of

15 May until October, 1994, all the time, how do you know what was the

16 situation with food supplies in Foca?

17 A. Well, I had the opportunity of going to the bakery to unload

18 flour, to spend sometime in the bakery, and from what I could see then,

19 there was -- well, if nothing else, then there was flour in sufficient

20 supply at the time. And apart from that, the shops that were still in the

21 town, reserves and all that, I think it was all in the hands of the

22 townsmen in Foca.

23 Q. Do you think that or do you know that?

24 A. Well, I think and I absolutely know it.

25 Q. How do you know it was in the hands of the citizens?

1 A. The period between the fall of Foca, between the 8th to the 12th

2 of April, not a single townsman of Muslim origin could take anything out

3 of Foca because Foca was under blockade at the time, by that time.

4 Q. So that is what you base your claim on?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. And with regard to the food that was given you in the

7 KP Dom, did you partake your meals with the KP Dom staff?

8 A. No, no. We had a separate room where we had our meals.

9 Q. And you never had your meals together?

10 A. No, never. They had their meals in a different room behind our

11 room.

12 Q. And where was this food prepared?

13 A. The food was prepared in front of the KP Dom in caldrons.

14 Q. When you say "in front of the KP Dom in caldrons," what food do

15 you mean, yours or theirs?

16 A. Well, I think it was prepared in the same caldrons, but then some

17 of it would be separated for us, and meat and other things were added to

18 the rest of the food for those men.

19 Q. Did you see that with your own eyes?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when did you see that?

22 A. I could see it best in 1993, when I worked in the yard chopping

23 the wood.

24 Q. What month of 1993?

25 A. I believe it was March and all those months, following months.

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1 Well, perhaps not every day but not less than three or four days a week, I

2 had to do that.

3 Q. Will you please be so kind as to tell us, this truck which brought

4 pasta and the rest, was it a civilian or an army truck?

5 A. I think it was an army truck -- no, I don't think. I know that

6 army trucks have their own registration plates and that was a truck from

7 Titovo Uzice. It was absolutely a civilian truck.

8 Q. Did you see the driver?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. And what was he wearing?

11 A. He wore civilian clothes.

12 Q. In the KP Dom during your stay, did you ever have any pasta on

13 your menu?

14 A. I did sometime in 1993.

15 Q. And marmalade?

16 A. Marmalade, once or twice in 1993.

17 Q. You said that that was what you had unloaded from that truck and

18 that you never had any of this in the KP Dom.

19 A. Well, when I say that I had it, it does not mean other people --

20 other detainees, because it so happened that Rasevic on those two

21 instances that I mentioned, the cook Rasevic, gave me a bit of marmalade.

22 Q. Sir, you mentioned today that after Krnojelac was relieved of his

23 duty - and you told us when that happened - that the conditions in the KP

24 Dom changed after that. Is that correct?

25 A. Oh, yes definitely.

1 Q. I shall now read to you the statement that you gave to the OTP on

2 the 21st and 22nd of October, 1995. "At the time before the International

3 Red Cross came, that was on the 10th of October, 1992, the conditions were

4 very bad."

5 Is it correct that on the 10th of October, 1992, the International

6 Red Cross came?

7 A. I don't remember the dates, believe me, when the red cross came.

8 What I do remember is various events. I could not see it because I was

9 simply taken out when the Red Cross came.

10 Q. But did the conditions improve after the Red Cross visit?

11 A. For a day perhaps.

12 Q. You spoke about how the dormitories had no heating. Were there

13 any stoves in living-rooms?

14 A. In living-rooms, there were stoves in 1993. They had been brought

15 by the Red Cross.

16 Q. And did you stoke them? Did you make fire in those stoves?

17 A. Yes, we did, in 1993 and 1994.

18 Q. When you say 1993 to 1994 --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- does it mean that you did not have any stoves until the winter

21 of 1993?

22 A. That is correct. We didn't.

23 Q. So the winter 1992, 1993, you were in Room 20, were you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you say that in the living-room of Room 20, there was no stove

1 fuelled by wood?

2 A. 100 per cent, in 1992, there was never a stove using wood.

3 Q. You said that you contracted pneumonia three times. Did you

4 have -- were you examined by a doctor?

5 A. Yes, where I live now, yes.

6 Q. Was there a physician in the KP Dom?

7 A. They came now and then.

8 Q. What physicians came, if you can remember?

9 A. Dr. Dobrilovic came. Dr. Vladicic came. Can't remember any

10 others.

11 Q. And those doctors whom you mentioned, did they see you?

12 A. What does it mean "see" and what does it mean "help"? They saw,

13 absolutely, and the medicines and what we asked for, they could not get.

14 Q. When you say "they could not get," what does that mean?

15 A. Well, listen, whenever the Red Cross came, there was a request to

16 supply the KP Dom with medicines, and we -- or rather people who spoke

17 with the Red Cross would inform that they had supplied the medicines

18 needed by the KP Dom. But these medicines, they did not give to those.

19 Q. Which means that you were not given any medicines in the KP Dom?

20 A. When I insisted with Dr. Dobrilovic. When I asked him, "What

21 shall I do with the pneumonia," I was only given two injections.

22 Q. What two injections? Antibiotics?

23 A. Yes, antibiotics, yes.

24 Q. You said that you talked with Gojko Jovanovic about what medicines

25 he should give you, what you were to take?

1 A. Yes. I went to seek his -- Dr. -- or rather Gojko Jokanovic's

2 advice. And I asked, because he was a seasoned nurse, an experienced one,

3 I asked him if there were some medicines that could help me. And his

4 answer invariably was, "There are no medicines, there are no medicines, no

5 medicines."

6 Q. But did Gojko Jokanovic ever give you medicine?

7 A. Yes, a couple of paracetamols.

8 Q. Was Gojko Jokanovic in the KP Dom every day?

9 A. I think so.

10 Q. You say that you had pneumonia three times. Who diagnosed it?

11 Was it you yourself or somebody else?

12 A. Well, if you feel pain and cannot breathe and have a fever, and if

13 you perspire, if you sweat, no, a doctor could not diagnose it. It was

14 absolutely my diagnosis, which was confirmed later on.

15 Q. And how did you then treat those three pneumonias?

16 A. I wonder about that myself.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Just a couple of seconds, Your

18 Honour, just a couple of seconds.

19 JUDGE HUNT: What, would you be finished in that time?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes -- no, no. Thank you, no. I

21 just looked at the clock and said I was running ahead a couple of

22 seconds. That's what I said.

23 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right. We will take the break now.

24 But before we do, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, have you picked some date,

25 have you, for this videolink?

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. We picked the 14th of

2 March. That is the first week after the break, the Wednesday.

3 JUDGE HUNT: And has that been checked out with the technical

4 people?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. It has been agreed upon.

6 JUDGE HUNT: They are able to do it within that period?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: It seems to be a fairly long way ahead. All right,

9 then. Well, we made the order this morning, as we promised, but it refers

10 only to a date to be confirmed. So we had better, I think, make another

11 formal order fixing the 14th of March for the videolink and also directing

12 the witness to attend on his summons on that day. Thank you.

13 We will resume at 2.30

14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Sorry for the late start. A small security problem.

3 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Sir, I shall continue with a few questions that I still have for

6 you. You said that detainees and employees of the KP Dom ate from the

7 same caldron, so to speak. Where did the Serb detainees get their food?

8 A. Serb detainees ate in the other part of the canteen.

9 Q. Was their food prepared in the same caldron where their food was

10 prepared? Was that for the other staff?

11 A. Yes, yes, the same pot. I mentioned that part of the food from

12 this pot was taken to us, given to us, and the rest received extra meat,

13 vegetables, spices, whatever else was needed in order to get a proper

14 dish.

15 Q. Did you see these Serb detainees as they were coming for

16 breakfast, lunch, and dinner?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Did you see what they were eating?

19 A. I could see that too, yes.

20 Q. Were those two rooms separated?

21 A. The entrance into my room and the room where the Serbs ate were

22 separate.

23 Q. Are these two rooms that were actually partitioned?

24 A. Between these two rooms was the kitchen, so they were absolutely

25 partitioned.

1 Q. How could you see what they were eating, then?

2 A. I mentioned this situation, that I worked within the compound,

3 that I chopped wood. I had the opportunity of entering these premises

4 when they were eating.

5 Q. When did you work on chopping wood in the compound?

6 A. In March, April, May 1993.

7 Q. Did you enter their canteen then?

8 A. I could and I did.

9 Q. Did you chop wood outside, outdoors?

10 A. Yes, outdoors.

11 Q. And what about the fire for the caldron? Was that fire outdoors?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 Q. So why did you go to their canteen, then?

14 A. Because when you enter the canteen, in the ground floor was the

15 laundry. I also knew the cooks who worked there. So it's not that

16 anything was forbidden to me that I could not enter there.

17 Q. What did you have to do with the laundry?

18 A. As for the laundry, our people worked in the laundry, so when I

19 would take a break, I would go down there to be with our people.

20 Q. So you were allowed to contact your people who were also detained

21 there?

22 A. With those who worked in the compound. It was absolutely

23 allowed. We would meet and we would also do certain things together.

24 Q. In order to get to the laundry, do you have to pass through this

25 canteen where the Serb prisoners ate?

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1 A. I passed by the main entrance door to that canteen.

2 Q. Did you have to enter the canteen in order to enter the laundry?

3 A. No, I did not enter the canteen.

4 Q. Thank you. You said that you would see Mr. Krnojelac with Mr.

5 Kasalica, Mr. Stankovic, Mr. Vukovic, as they went for a walk. Can you

6 tell me what the profession of these three persons is?

7 A. Kasalica is a math teacher.

8 Q. What about Stankovic?

9 A. He worked in the school called Donja Skola. Stankovic was a

10 teacher of math. Zarko Vukovic was the principal of the Veselin Maslesa

11 elementary school for some time. He's a teacher. I don't know which

12 group of subjects he teaches. Later he worked in the organisation in

13 charge of elementary education.

14 Q. So at the time you saw them taking walks together, he was

15 principal of the Veselin Maslesa elementary school; is that correct?

16 A. I cannot give you any guarantees to that effect.

17 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac work in that same school?

18 A. Yes, he did.

19 Q. You also mentioned Mr. Cicovic, Vujadin. What was he by

20 profession?

21 A. You mean Vujadin Matovic?

22 Q. I beg your pardon, Vujadin Matovic. What was he by profession?

23 A. He was a teacher of biology. He worked at the high school.

24 Q. You also mentioned Mr. Cicovic. What was he by profession?

25 A. Veljko Cicovic was also a biology teacher and he worked in the

1 high school.

2 Q. So those are the persons you saw Mr. Krnojelac taking walks with

3 along the right or the left bank of the Drina, as you said; is that right?

4 A. Yes. I saw them quite often.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. Is it correct that in the first statement you

6 gave to the OTP, you said the following? "The military police could enter

7 the prison whenever they wanted to. Usually, they would come to a cell

8 accompanied by guards, and then this guard would escort -- would unlock

9 the door and they would take prisoners out to beat them. Some of these

10 prisoners were never returned."

11 A. That is absolutely correct.

12 Q. Immediately after that, you talked about four groups that were

13 taken out, as you said, during the examination in chief, now, between the

14 12th and the 28th of June. In your first statement, you said that in the

15 first group there were nine persons who were taken out, namely: Nurko

16 Nisic, Mustafa Kuloglija, Zaim Rikalo, Hussein Rikalo, Mithat Rikalo, Nail

17 Hodzic, Esad Kiselica, Seval Soro, and Halil Konjo. Later on you

18 corrected yourself and you said that it was Halim Konjo.

19 During your examination in chief, you said that Munib Veiz was

20 taken out in the first group. You did not mention that in your statement

21 to the OTP. You said that Hussein Rikalo was taken out in the second

22 group. Also, you said that Krunoslav Marinovic was taken out in the first

23 group, but you did not mention him in this statement.

24 What is correct out of all of this?

25 A. What was said to you in this statement is quite correct.

1 Q. So Munib Veiz was not in the first group or was in the first

2 group?

3 A. He was.

4 Q. You did not mention him when you made a statement in 1995, though,

5 in connection with the first group, that is.

6 A. You -- I actually explained that at that moment I mentioned all

7 the persons who were mistreated or beaten, but I was not sure whether I

8 remembered that properly in that period, and whether I had put all the

9 people in the right groups. However, later, as my memory came back, I

10 came to that order which I told you about here and now.

11 Q. So your memory is better now, is it?

12 A. Well, the fact that I was called to testify here before this court

13 opened new vistas for me and refreshed my memory, better than it had been

14 over the past year.

15 Q. When you gave your statement, you said that were you prepared to

16 come and testify before this Tribunal, so you knew about that even then,

17 didn't you?

18 A. Absolutely, because I felt this was my duty.

19 Q. So you knew that when you were giving that statement. That cannot

20 be a reason for you to have a better memory now.

21 A. It is quite certain that I can remember better now than I could

22 then.

23 Q. In the statement that you gave to the OTP, you said that Nail

24 Hodzic, Esad Kiselica and Seval Soro were in your room, and next to their

25 names you say "my room." Now you said that Esad Kiselica -- or rather

1 during your examination in chief, you said that Esad Kiselica was not in

2 your room.

3 A. Esad Kiselica was not in my room. I think I made a mistake after

4 all.

5 Q. Also now during your examination in chief, you said that Nurko

6 Nisic was in your room and that Mustafa Kuloglija was in your room. In

7 1995, you did not say that to the OTP.

8 A. Yes, they were both in my room.

9 Q. As for the second group, sir, you said that the following persons

10 were taken out in the second group: Alija Altoka, Miralem Altoka, Ismet

11 Deleut, Juso Dzamalija, Adnan Pasalic, Zulfo Veiz, Munib Veiz, Dzemail

12 Vahida. That is what you listed in your first statement in 1995. Today

13 you said to us that the following persons were taken out in the second

14 group: Seval Soro, Mate Ivancic, Zulfo Veiz, Ekrem Tulek, Refik

15 Cankusic. With the exception of Zulfo Veiz, the other persons do not

16 correspond at all to those mentioned in your statement in 1995. How do

17 you explain that?

18 A. I explained that by the following. As concerns the group, I

19 concentrated not only once but several times, and I remembered with

20 certainty these persons, and when they were taken out.

21 Q. So you remember that now, didn't you?

22 A. No, no, absolutely not now.

23 Q. When did you remember?

24 A. I think that you are overdoing it now with this question. I can't

25 say exactly.

1 Q. Thank you. When you talked about the third group, in your first

2 statement given to the OTP, when you listed nine persons, you said that

3 Salem Bico was in the third group, Refik Cankusic, Abadurahman Cankusic,

4 Adil Granov, Mate Ivancic, Adil Krajcin, Krunoslav Marinovic, Kemal Tulek,

5 Enes Uzunovic.

6 In your examination in chief, you said that Vahida Dzemail was in

7 the third group. You did not mention him as being in the third group in

8 your first statement.

9 You also said that Mandzo Fuad was there. Also you did not

10 mention him in your first statement as being in the third group. Altoka

11 Alija, in your first statement you said that he was in the second group.

12 Hadzimusic Nermin, and you did not say in your first statement that he was

13 in the third group. Adil Krajcin, you said that he was in the second

14 group. Enes Uzunovic and Karahasanovic Ismet, and you did not say in your

15 first statement that he was in the third group. How come there is such a

16 difference?

17 A. Well, I'm telling you: These differences are caused by the fact

18 that finally I was in a position to remember all the events that took

19 place.

20 Q. Did other detainees help you in refreshing your memory?

21 A. No. No. Absolutely no one helped me.

22 Q. You said that you made typewritten notes on the basis of other

23 detainees' memories as well.

24 A. I made these notes in writing together with the other detainees.

25 As concerns dates, the dates of exchanges and other events, I was not sure

1 of; I wasn't sure of their dates.

2 Q. Sir, you said today that among these persons, and in this way, the

3 following persons were taken out: Karahasanovic, Islambasic Suad, Paco

4 Ismet, Sofradzija Mehmed, Dzano Hasan, Rasim Kajgana. In your first

5 statement given to the OTP you did not mention these persons as being in

6 any one of these four groups.

7 A. I think that in the first statement I could not remember all these

8 names, absolutely. That is why I mentioned them now, and I am sure that

9 they did experience what they did experience.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. On the 10th of October, 1994, did you give a

11 statement to the Public Security Station in Sarajevo?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Did you say on that occasion that a person named Dzendusic, Ramo

14 was taken away for an exchange and that his fate is unknown?

15 A. As for this statement that you mentioned is concerned, the one

16 given on the 10th of October, 1994, I just started giving that statement.

17 The man who was taking that statement from me was called Davidovic. He

18 was an ethnic Serb.

19 The next day I was supposed to come to give my statement, and he

20 just took my basic details - when I was in the camp, where I was brought

21 from - and this was just a few sentences. The next day I came, and he

22 said -- no, sorry. This was the way it was. He said, "You sign this and

23 I'll finish it myself. The story is the same like that of other people."

24 However, the next day when I came, at a particular time that was

25 agreed upon, when I was supposed to supplement my statement, I waited for

1 about half an hour asking whether the gentleman to whom I was supposed to

2 give the statement was there. I was told that regrettably the gentleman

3 had gone elsewhere. So I never gave the statement in its entirety, and

4 whether he compiled this on the basis of the other testimonies and the

5 other things mentioned by other persons, that I'm not sure of.

6 Q. Why are you telling me specifically that the person who took the

7 statement from you is an ethnic Serb?

8 A. I'm telling you that because he left that particular job and went

9 to Serb territory.

10 Q. When did he do that, and how come you are familiar with that?

11 A. Well, on the 11th of October, 1994, I was supposed to supplement

12 this statement; and when I came there, where I was supposed to give this

13 statement, to continue giving this statement, that's what I was told.

14 Q. So on the 10th of October, that person worked at the centre of the

15 Security Services in Sarajevo, which was, and is until this present day,

16 under the control of the Federation; and on the 11th, on the next day, he

17 went to Serb territory. Did I understand you correctly?

18 A. Yes, that is the information I received.

19 Q. And he did not take your statement in its entirety; right? You

20 say that you signed that statement earlier, before he took it from you.

21 A. Absolutely. I signed it earlier.

22 Q. Where did you sign it? On which part of a piece of paper? Where

23 did you put your signature?

24 A. As far as I can remember, at the bottom of a page.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Bottom of the page.

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1 Could the usher please help me and show you the statement.

2 Q. And could you tell me whether your signature is on the bottom of

3 the page, and where it is.

4 A. Before that I told you that I did not remember, that this was an

5 assumption I was making.

6 Q. We are checking your memory too as well over here. Tell me, where

7 is your signature?

8 A. Absolutely, this is my signature.

9 Q. Where is it? On which part of this sheet of paper? Is it in the

10 upper half of this paper or on the lower half?

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer of the

12 witness.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Sir, we need this for the transcript.

15 JUDGE HUNT: We've lost the answer, so ask the question again.

16 But may I suggest you get him to put a mark beside it - we can't put it on

17 the ELMO, obviously - put a mark beside where he says his signature is and

18 show it to him.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that I understood you

20 very well, Your Honour. The answer you lost - and the witness will

21 correct me if I'm making a mistake - was that now he saw the statement and

22 that it is clear to him where he signed it. And now I'm asking the

23 following: If it is sufficient, can he tell us now --

24 JUDGE HUNT: Just wait a moment. It's all very well for you to

25 tell us that that's what you heard, but the interpreters lost it because

1 you started to ask your question on top of it. And it is better if we can

2 get it from the witness rather than what you've heard. Now, the next

3 thing I suggested to you was: Get him to mark where he says his signature

4 is and the document will be handed back to you. We can't put it on the

5 ELMO, because it will reveal his name.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, you heard His Honour. I do not know if you want me to

8 repeat what His Honour has said. Will you please be so kind and mark the

9 place -- I think you have a marker. No, no, no. Don't use the marker.

10 Just use a pen and show -- mark where your signature is.

11 A. But you have my two signatures.

12 Q. I'm asking you about your signature in the third statement.

13 A. And what does this signature which is at the end of this paper

14 which I signed mean to you?

15 Q. Sir, if you want me to tell you now what the criminal procedure

16 act is, when you sign a statement, you sign at the bottom of every page.

17 I'm asking you if you recognise your signature on the third page, if that

18 is your signature, and will you please put a mark next to your signature.

19 These signatures can be analysed by a graphologist, so will you please

20 have a good look and tell us if that is indeed your signature or isn't

21 it.

22 A. The signatures are identical, absolutely, except that I don't

23 remember signing it twice.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --

25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: While this dispute was going on, the witness

2 actually lifted the first page of his statement and pointed out that that

3 was his signature on the bottom, and this is not reflected in the record.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. I could see him doing that myself. All

5 I'm trying to do is get him to mark it, but not anywhere over the top of

6 it - it has to be tested - so there could be no dispute what he says is

7 his signature. It's no good just pointing to it. We want it marked on

8 the document.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I should like to ask you to mark --

11 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. I'm waiting for the witness to do

12 it.

13 Now, have you marked your signature everywhere where it appears on

14 that document? And not with the coloured thing; with some sort of a pen,

15 and put a coloured cross beside it, but not on top of the signature

16 itself.

17 Is this an original document, by the way, Mr. Bakrac? Is this an

18 original document?

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] This is the document that we were

20 given by the Prosecution, with a translation. The statement given to the

21 public security station, we also have it in English, and it was given us

22 in B/C/S as an authentic document. It is marked ID135 in B/C/S, and 135A

23 is the translation's mark.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I didn't ask you whether it was an authorised copy or

25 anything or whether it was authenticated. I said: Was it an original

1 document? That can be answered yes or no. Is the document that the

2 witness has the original statement or is it a photocopy?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the photocopy

4 of the statement we were given by the Prosecution.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Thank you. All right.

6 Now, the witness, please, would you just put a cross beside your

7 signature wherever it appears in that document.

8 A. [Marks] There is yet another page.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Now, would you show that to Mr. Bakrac, please.

10 Have a look at the document, Mr. Bakrac, and then we'll all like

11 to look at it as well.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but ...

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, maybe I can help and solve this

14 matter. It looks that in the trial binder that everyone got, the second

15 page was on the backside of the original and was not photocopied.

16 Therefore, you probably have only two of the pages at hand, although from

17 the numbering on the page, you can see that one is missing, and the

18 translation itself has three pages. So the second page is in our evidence

19 vault and obviously not with Defence counsel at the moment.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Do you think that somebody could be asked to perhaps

21 ring up and get the document sent down? One hopes that the witness will

22 be finished with by this afternoon.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this will take a few minutes,

24 because our laptop doesn't work properly. We cannot access e-mail,

25 because it's down in our office, so my colleague has to go personally to

1 get it.

2 JUDGE HUNT: There is, in fact, no access to OTP e-mail on this

3 floor at all, unless you have something special.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. From our computer we can.

5 JUDGE HUNT: All right.

6 Now, Mr. Bakrac, I'm sorry. What did you want to say?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Nothing, Your Honour, nothing of any

8 consequence. I apologise.

9 JUDGE HUNT: That document is being obtained, the missing page,

10 and that can be shown to the witness then. Can you go on to some other

11 subject and come back to this in a few moments?

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour. Thank

13 you.

14 Q. Sir, you said that Mehmed Sofradzija was in Room 22 all by himself

15 and that you saw him through the window. You also said that Serb

16 detainees were in Room 22.

17 A. Mehmed Sofradzija was brought from the area of Herzegovina and he

18 was absolutely in Room 22 and he was alone there, and the Serb detainees

19 were there before him.

20 Q. Can you tell us when was it that the Serb detainees were there and

21 when was Mehmed Sofradzija locked in there alone?

22 A. In the rooms in the right wing of the building, on the second

23 floor, they vacated the rooms there and then distributed our men around

24 other rooms. Into those rooms, opposite from the room 20, they put

25 Serbs.

1 Q. I'm asking you about the time period when the Serbs were in Room

2 22 and when was it that Mehmed Sofradzija was kept there alone.

3 A. Well, roughly, I arrived there on the 25th of May, to Room 20.

4 Mehmed Sofradzija could have been brought sometime around the 8th or 9th

5 of June, and until the 6th or the 7th of June, not later than that, the

6 Serbs were moved out of those rooms because our men who had been in that

7 room, I'm telling you, they had moved to other rooms a couple of days

8 before that.

9 Q. Is Mehmed Sofradzija one of the individuals who were taken out?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what group was he taken out with?

12 A. The fourth group.

13 Q. Do you know the date when he was taken out?

14 A. I couldn't remember the date, so the time frame is 20th to the

15 28th of June, 1992.

16 Q. Witness, you said that you saw the beating of the first group of

17 people in one room and you showed it to us and you said that a lantern was

18 used, a lantern with gas was used. Do you know why?

19 A. Because at that time there was no electricity in the KP Dom.

20 Q. And what was that period of time that you're referring to?

21 A. Between the 12th and the 28th of June, 1992.

22 Q. It was that time that there was no power?

23 A. There was no power until September, 1992, in the KP Dom.

24 Q. You also said that some individuals were taken out even after 9.00

25 in the evening?

1 A. No. I did not say that they were taken out, they had been taken

2 out after 9.00, but they were taken out between 1800 and 1900, and that

3 the torture lasted until late at night.

4 Q. Does that mean that the last individual had to wait in front of

5 the metal door between being taken out between 6.00 and 7.00 and then had

6 to wait until 12.00?

7 A. Absolutely, yes.

8 Q. You said a while ago -- rather, during your direct examination,

9 that you tried not to hear those sounds and that you put towels over your

10 ears or a rag or a piece of cloth or something. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes. And it was after the second group was taken out.

12 Q. Then how could you hear what happened to the third and the fourth

13 group? And you tell us that they were taken away to a part of the

14 building which was farther away from you, that is from the central part of

15 the building.

16 A. Well, it was simpler, it was easier, it was more tolerable to

17 hear, because it did not happen in my immediate vicinity.

18 Q. But you say that you had your ears covered not to hear it, and

19 again it was further away from you than in the case of the first group.

20 A. Sir, you are trying to link this situation with the whole

21 situation of people who were taken out. I covered my ears at the time

22 when the second group was taken out.

23 Q. So you linked all those situations even if you did not hear that

24 situation?

25 A. I saw people being taken out and I knew what had happened to those

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1 first group, and I absolutely lacked the courage to listen to that again.

2 Q. So after the first group, you did not hear anything, it is merely

3 your assumption that the same thing happened as with the first group?

4 A. Absolutely.

5 Q. Thank you. In your earlier statements to the OTP and in the

6 public security centre, did you ever mention in any one of them that the

7 second, the third, and the fourth group were taken out to the central part

8 of the administrative building?

9 A. I don't think so.

10 Q. Why do you then mention it now for the first time?

11 A. Because earlier I stated that I listened to the torture and the

12 beating of the first two groups.

13 Q. But --

14 A. And I'm not sure if anyone asked me about the second one, that is

15 whether I was asked where they had been beaten.

16 Q. Do I understand you well, just a while ago you said that as of the

17 second group, you stopped listening?

18 A. You are making horrible mistakes, really. I did not listen to the

19 beating of the second group and I did listen to those others.

20 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You also mentioned that you had heard a

21 voice asking Nurko Nisic, "Nurko, where's your flag?" And you also said

22 that before he was taken out, Nurko had told you that his flag had been

23 found, that -- so then why should somebody ask him about his flag if it

24 had been found in his desk and seized?

25 A. The flag was allegedly found, and Nurko said that he did indeed

1 have a Croatian flag and the one who asked him that and what he -- and why

2 he asked him that, that is none of my business.

3 Q. You also said, sir, that -- or rather my question is: After which

4 group did you clean the room?

5 A. At the end of all the beatings -- groups, sorry.

6 Q. Did you also clean the rooms in the right wing of the

7 administrative building, looking from your room, or in the centre part of

8 the administrative building?

9 A. No. In the central part, I did not clean any rooms. I cleaned

10 the rooms in the right wing of the building.

11 Q. If you agree, and according to what you said, the first group was

12 taken out on the 12th of June; is that correct?

13 A. No. I did not say that it was the 12th of June.

14 Q. And so when was the first group taken out?

15 A. Between the 12th and some June, three or four days after the 12th

16 of June.

17 Q. And when was the last group taken out?

18 A. The last group was -- could have been taken out around the 25th or

19 6th, 23rd or 24th. Does not matter.

20 Q. But you told us it went on until the 28th, so it lasted until the

21 23rd or 4th, not the 28th.

22 A. No. It went on until the 28th. And I have the reserve

23 information that it wasn't on the 12th of June precisely, nor that the

24 last day was precisely the 28th. It was between those two dates.

25 Q. But if we accept what you are telling us now, which is different

1 from what you told us before, you said the 12th and then two or three days

2 later, and then you said the 25th, which is two or three days less, so

3 there is a difference of ten days. So they took to you clean those rooms

4 ten days later after what had happened.

5 A. I think you are not judging this correctly. I told -- I already

6 said that I cleaned those rooms in August. I don't remember the date.

7 Q. So it was two months after all this had happened?

8 A. Yes, correct.

9 Q. And what did you find in those rooms?

10 A. I found a couple of wooden handles and a metal rod.

11 Q. And what else?

12 A. And naturally, I also spotted blood stains, dried blood stains.

13 Q. Could you describe the rooms that you cleaned? On the photograph

14 you showed it behind a metal door, behind a metal bars. You pointed at

15 the first room on the right. How large was it and what was there in it?

16 Did you clean it?

17 A. Yes, I did clean it. It's not a large room. I cannot be very

18 accurate about its size. It could have been 3 by 2.5 or 3. It doesn't

19 matter. I don't know the dimensions. I never measured it. And I already

20 told you what I had found there.

21 Q. And what else was there in that room? I mean furniture, was there

22 any furniture?

23 A. No, it was completely bare.

24 Q. Did you clean the room next to it?

25 A. I cleaned it and sat in it.

1 Q. And how large is that room and what was in it?

2 A. It is a smaller room and there was a desk and a chair -- there

3 were a desk and a chair in it.

4 Q. When you say smaller, of a smaller -- how much -- how big was it,

5 roughly?

6 A. About 2.5 to 3 metres, roughly.

7 Q. Did you clean the third room again next to that one?

8 A. I don't think so. I think I moved on to clean the passage and

9 another person cleaned those rooms; that is, that third room towards the

10 staircase to the upper floor.

11 Q. And the room that you cleaned and which you first mentioned that

12 the first one to the right from the metal door, was that the first room,

13 the next room to the staircase leading to the upper floor?

14 A. No, not next to the staircase but next to the reception room, the

15 first room after the metal door.

16 Q. And in front of that door and that room, is there a staircase

17 leading to the upper floor of the administrative building?

18 A. The staircase is on the left-hand side.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, I have to look for a

20 photograph.

21 Could the usher help me, please, to show the witness photograph

22 8448?

23 Could I have it on the ELMO, please?

24 Q. Sir, now, if I understood what you said the metal door with the

25 metal bars are marked in yellow as 1, and it -- that is the room that you

1 cleaned first, that you pointed at?

2 A. Correct.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the first

4 room on the right-hand side behind the metal door marked with 1, marked

5 1.

6 Q. And the door marked 2, where does this door lead to?

7 A. You mean this here?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. I don't know anything about this door but I think that it was the

10 switchboard, the telephone exchange behind it.

11 Q. And door number 3, do you know where that door leads to?

12 A. No, no, I can't remember.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] When the witness spoke about the

14 door of the telephone exchange, the witness indicated the door marked on

15 the photograph with 2.

16 Q. In front of the door marked 2, and you cannot see this on the

17 photograph, but do you recall was there any other room here or not?

18 A. There shouldn't be.

19 Q. Is there a staircase in front of the door leading to an upper

20 floor or is it somewhere else?

21 A. There is a staircase on the left-hand side, next to the

22 receptionist's; rather, three or four stairs.

23 Q. Could you show to us on this photograph on which side do you say

24 the staircase leading to the upper floor of the administrative building

25 is?

1 A. You mean the upper floor of the administrative building?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Behind this metal door, on the left-hand side.

4 Q. You mean on the left-hand side?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So is the staircase which leads to the upper floor of the

7 administrative building, did it face the yard of the KP Dom or did it face

8 the street in front of the KP Dom?

9 A. As you enter to the left, you take the stairs to the right.

10 Q. No. What I'm asking you is: If the passage is in the middle, is

11 the staircase on the side of the building nearer the prisoners' quarters

12 and the KP Dom yard, the KP Dom compound, or is the staircase on the side

13 nearer the street?

14 A. The staircase is nearer the street.

15 Q. Thank you. Sir, when you were talking about the beatings that you

16 suffered in the KP Dom, in your first statement for the Office of the

17 Prosecutor you mentioned that you were mistreated twice. In your second

18 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1996, you said you were

19 physically mistreated three times. Yesterday and today, during your

20 examination-in-chief, you said that you were physically abused four

21 times. Please be kind enough and tell us which is correct.

22 A. The most correct version is that I was mistreated four times.

23 Q. Why didn't you tell the Prosecutor that in your first statement?

24 A. The period in July when I was abused, I didn't have any major

25 injuries or consequences, so I simply forgot about it.

1 Q. So you thought that the fact you were beaten up was unimportant

2 and you didn't have to tell the Prosecutor about it?

3 A. I wasn't beaten up seriously, and I didn't remember the date.

4 Q. You didn't remember the date, but you must have remembered that

5 you were beaten.

6 A. Yes, I remembered that I was beaten, and I repeatedly said it was

7 two or three times. Later on, when I concentrated and looked back closer,

8 I remembered it was four times.

9 Q. You said today that you were beaten when you made gloves and socks

10 out of blankets; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. In your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1996, you

13 said the following:

14 "All the time the prisoners were punished and put in isolation

15 cells for even minor offences. For instance, when Safet Avdic, Rasim

16 Hanjalic, Ibrahim Kafedzic made socks out of blankets, they were

17 punished."

18 You described a specific incident and you didn't say at all that

19 you too made socks and that you were punished and beaten up because of

20 it.

21 A. I didn't make socks, but socks were found on me, one in my hand

22 and another set on my feet. But the mentioned prisoners made the socks.

23 Q. So this is another detail that you've only just remembered?

24 A. Yes. I didn't remember it before.

25 Q. How come you didn't tell the Office of the Prosecutor about such

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1 an important incident?

2 A. I didn't remember this detail for a long time, that is, why I was

3 put in solitary confinement and mistreated. Then I linked up the

4 situation with the bread and then I remembered that it was because of the

5 socks that I was put in solitary confinement and mistreated.

6 Q. Sir, in the KP Dom, did you have any facilities for hygiene?

7 A. During the first year, no. We would sometimes be given a cake of

8 soap to wash our clothes, but in cold water.

9 Q. Is it true that in your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor

10 in 1995, on page 5, you said: "We were enabled to keep clean"?

11 A. That came later, when that year expired, that is, at the end of

12 1992 or in June 1993.

13 Q. Why didn't you say that to the Prosecutor? The way you spoke, it

14 appeared that throughout the period you did have the necessary sanitary

15 conditions.

16 A. Well, I have refreshed my memory now. I remember things much

17 better now.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, sir, whether the guards, during your

19 two-year detention, went to the front lines?

20 A. I think they did, because there were quite lengthy periods when we

21 were guarded and secured by a couple of people who did not change for up

22 to seven days, the same people for up to seven days.

23 Q. Sir, did you ever, earlier on, tell the Office of the Prosecutor

24 about the incident with a person surnamed Pasovic, also known as Pace, in

25 the yard of the KP Dom?

1 A. I think that I did describe that event once. Now I'm not sure

2 whether I mentioned his name.

3 Q. And you remembered his name now?

4 A. I don't know what you mean when you say "now." I didn't come here

5 with information that I recalled just before coming here.

6 Q. But the incident with Pasovic, known as Paco, was not mentioned in

7 any of your statements to the Office of the Prosecutor or the security

8 centre in Sarajevo.

9 A. Yes, but my recollection came later.

10 Q. In connection with this incident, you said that you were lined up

11 in front of the door to Room 20. Do you mean inside that room or outside,

12 in front of the room, in the corridor?

13 A. The inside of that room.

14 Q. Is that the central part?

15 A. No. In front of that central room, the corridor leading to the

16 entrance.

17 Q. Did that corridor have windows?

18 A. Yes, yes, quite big windows.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your permission, I

20 should like to go back to the statement that we received in the meantime.

21 So with the assistance of the usher, I should like the witness to mark his

22 signature on the document, which is now complete and has all three pages

23 to it.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Is this a completely fresh copy of it, is it, so you

25 want him to start again?

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It is the copy

2 that we were given by the Prosecution.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. So would you be kind enough, wherever you see your signature on

6 this statement, to mark it with a sign. You can mark it with a letter "X"

7 if you like, next to your signature.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, for your information, the

9 document that we have in the evidence vault is a copy that we received

10 from the Bosnian government. We do not have an original.

11 JUDGE HUNT: My concern was only about marking an original

12 document, that's all. That's why I asked. Now, should that document be

13 replaced in our binders? Are there copies for us?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

15 JUDGE HUNT: We'll deal with that later. Thank you. What is its

16 ID number? You did give it to us earlier.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: ID135.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Bakrac, is there any real issue now as to whether that is his

20 signature? It's the same signature on each page at the foot of the page,

21 complying with what you say is in your criminal procedure act.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. My question is for

23 the witness to tell us whether all three pages contain his signature.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. If, of course, you are seeking to use this in

25 some way, as you appear to be, threatening to launch some sort of

1 prosecution against him, he would have to be warned that he does not have

2 to answer the question. That's why I'm asking you.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission, I

4 will do that.

5 You are under oath, sir, and you're obliged to look carefully to

6 see whether that is your signature.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. I don't think you got the point that I

8 was seeking to make. It may be that I misunderstood what you said, but

9 when you warned him about the provisions of the statute, if you are

10 seeking to use or you are going to seek to use his answer to that question

11 in some way as the basis for some form of prosecution of him, he should be

12 warned that he does not have to answer that question because he's not

13 obliged to incriminate himself, just as your client was given that warning

14 on every occasion he was asked to say something.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's a

16 misunderstanding. I was asked by the witness. I said that according to

17 the law on criminal procedure of the country where the statement was

18 taken, every page has to be signed at the bottom. It wasn't any threat of

19 prosecution. I just answered a question put to me by the witness, which I

20 wasn't obliged to do. When he said that there was a signature on the

21 first page, I said that according to the law on criminal procedure, the

22 document has to be signed on every page, at the bottom of every page.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

24 Is all that noise that's going on outside something to do with the

25 security problem? Could anybody hear that?

1 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

2 [Trial Chamber confers with registrar]

3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, as long as our happy security service is not

4 having another rehearsal for clearing out the building in the middle of a

5 trial, we'll proceed until we hear to the contrary. Thank you.

6 A. I think my signature on page 3 is questionable.

7 Q. Do you mean that it is not your signature or that it is or that

8 you're not sure?

9 A. I'm not sure. It must have been copied.

10 Your Honour, may I address the court? Regarding the first two

11 signatures, I can confirm that they are mine. As for the third, I shall

12 try to establish the truth in the service in which I gave that statement.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, sir, thank you very much for that. Bearing in

14 mind they are photostats, there is always some difficulty in determining

15 whether or not the signature is the same, but if Mr. Bakrac wants to

16 proceed to have that checked, he can do so, as he did, in fact, threaten

17 earlier.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I have already said

19 that there was a misunderstanding. I just explained why there is a

20 signature on every page, according to the rules, and I told the witness

21 that his signature could be subject to handwriting expert opinion, but I

22 think any further comments would be superfluous. The Defence feels that

23 what we heard from the witness regarding these statements suffices.

24 Q. However, as my final question, I would like to ask the witness

25 whether now, while looking at his signatures, he also read the statement.

1 A. No. I haven't read it through. The first part does coincide with

2 what I said.

3 Q. Can you tell me now whether this statement is fully -- is entirely

4 incorrect, partly incorrect, whether you did say everything that is

5 written in it to the investigator, which part of it was erroneously

6 recorded? So will you tell us whether you made this statement or not?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Objection.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think before the witness can actually

10 answer this question, he needs time to read it. Otherwise, how would he

11 then answer this question now?

12 JUDGE HUNT: I think that's fair enough. He did say he hadn't

13 read it.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did ask him, and he

15 said he had read it partially, but not to be at fault for using too much

16 time, I was trying to speed things up. But, of course, let the witness

17 read it through.

18 A. Your Honours, may I address you?

19 JUDGE HUNT: Speed sometimes is dangerous, Mr. Bakrac.

20 Yes, sir, what do you want to say?

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I know, Your Honour, but you

22 cautioned me once that I shouldn't be too cautious, so I'm in a dilemma

23 now.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Now, sir what is it that you wanted to ask?

25 A. In a part of the statement - and you've already asked me about

1 that, sir - regarding Ramo Dzendusic, Adil Seco [phoen], Fadil Sevko

2 [phoen], somebody I don't know, I am certain, and I can guarantee 100 per

3 cent, that at least as far as Adil and Ramo, I could say every -- whenever

4 I was asked what happened to them, and what is written in this statement

5 is incorrect.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Sir, will you agree with me that in this statement, it says that

8 they were exchanged?

9 A. I will not agree, because they disappeared and they were never

10 exchanged.

11 Q. My question is, as you have read the statement: Will you agree

12 with me that this statement says that they were exchanged?

13 JUDGE HUNT: Have we got the original? I'm sorry, not the

14 original, the English translation?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's in the trial binder and it's 135A, and

16 the passage talked about is on the third page in the first paragraph.

17 JUDGE HUNT: And which binder is 135? You will see what I mean

18 about how difficult it is to find documents in these problems. I have now

19 found it. Page 3, did you say?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, first paragraph, the top paragraph, the

21 last two sentences of the first paragraph.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I wouldn't like this to depend upon the

23 accuracy of the translation. Have you seen this translation?

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: And it says there, "The following men were taken to

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1 be exchanged." Now, if you are suggesting there is some distinction

2 between that and "they were exchanged", it may be that the original is

3 ambiguous. There is a difference, I understand, between actually being

4 exchanged and being taken to be exchanged, but if there is one thing we

5 have learned during the course of this trial, the fact that people were

6 told they were being exchanged often meant they would disappear. And

7 that's all that the witness has said here.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is not the point,

9 with all due respect. I do apologise, but Dzendusic, Ramo, in the

10 examination-in-chief, and also in his statement, was described as a person

11 who was taken out as a member of a group that was beaten up in the KP Dom

12 and ended up in the way we were told. That is the point, because the

13 witness in his first statement says that this person was taken to be

14 exchanged, and here, in his testimony, he speaks about him as a person who

15 was one of the victims in the KP Dom, so two different accounts.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. I see now. You're suggesting that his evidence

17 was that he disappeared after being beaten up, and here he is saying

18 simply that they were not seen again after having being taken to be

19 exchanged. Can you put it to him in those terms rather than us poring

20 through documents? It's a valid issue for you to raise, but put it to him

21 directly.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have asked the

23 question about Ramo Dzendusic and then showed him the statement.

24 Q. Tell me, Witness, is Ramo Dzendusic the person who was among one

25 of the groups that were beaten up and killed in the KP Dom, as you said,

1 or a person who was taken away allegedly to be exchanged?

2 A. Ramo Dzendusic was in the fourth group of persons who were beaten

3 up.

4 Q. Would you agree with me that it says in this statement that he was

5 taken allegedly to be exchanged?

6 A. No, I don't agree with you.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence suggests the

8 admission of this statement into evidence, and we have no further

9 questions for this witness.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. What do you say about the admission of the

11 document, the statement into evidence?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objection, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, the B/C/S original will be Exhibit D-2, and the

14 English translation will be Exhibit D-2A.

15 Have you finished the cross-examination?

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. I

17 thought I had already said that.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I had not intended in any way a criticism in the way

19 I asked that. I just wanted to know.

20 Is there any re-examination, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, just a very few matters.

22 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

23 Q. Witness, you mentioned when asked by Defence counsel that Gojko

24 Jankovic said that nothing can happen to the prisoners without the order

25 of the military command. Did you hear him say that personally or did he

1 say that to someone else?

2 A. Gojko Jankovic said that first to the men who were working for him

3 in renovating his cafe.

4 Q. When did this person renovate the cafe? Was it a detainee or who

5 was the person who did that?

6 A. Yes, yes, Fehim Dedovic, and Hajric -- I know his nickname but I

7 can't remember his first name. A cafe was renovated of the former JNA

8 club. He probably took it over as his possession.

9 Q. And how did you get this information that Gojko Jankovic said that

10 to these two gentlemen? How did you learn about it?

11 A. They passed it on to us when they came back from town. They told

12 us about it, because they worked for him for about a month and longer.

13 Q. Did you personally speak with Gojko Jankovic about this issue?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. Defence counsel referred to this incident with Pace, and actually

16 as you have told us during the examination in chief, there were two

17 incidents involving this Pace. And you described to us that Pace was once

18 beaten by Predrag Stefanovic and where were you when he was beaten as --

19 when he was beaten alone?

20 A. I was lined up in front of him.

21 Q. And the second time, is that when you were lined up in Room 20?

22 A. Yes, indeed.

23 Q. And just one more matter that I would like to clarify with you.

24 You said that you saw and heard what happened to the first group, and you

25 said when the second group was taken out and taken into the building, you

1 covered your ears. Does that mean you didn't hear anything at all?

2 A. No. You can't put it that way, that I didn't hear anything at

3 all. Occasionally, I would remove my hands. So you can't say that I

4 didn't hear anything.

5 Q. You said that the second group was beaten in the same place as the

6 first group. How do you know that?

7 A. I know because other people were watching also. They had the

8 courage to peep through the window and see what was happening across the

9 way from us.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. No further

11 questions.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I should have added that that exhibit, D-2 and D-2A

13 are both under seal.

14 Thank you, sir, for giving your evidence. You are now free to

15 leave. I suggest you wait there for a moment because the blinds will have

16 to be brought down to enable to you leave the court without being seen by

17 the public. We will adjourn now until 9.30 in the morning.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

20 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14^th

21 day of February 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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