1 Wednesday, 14
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is IT-97-25-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.
10 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir.
13 Yes, Mr. Smith.
14 MR. SMITH: Witness, I would ask you to read the solemn
16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, are you ready to proceed?
17 MR. SMITH: Yes.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Stand up, would you please, sir. Would you make the
19 solemn declaration in the document which is being shown to you.
20 WITNESS: JUSO TARANIN
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir. Perhaps, Mr. Smith, what I
25 was waiting for was an application to amend the protective measures,
1 because this is the rather strange situation of having facial distortion
2 but no pseudonym.
3 MR. SMITH: It is a unique situation, Your Honour. He's quite
4 happy that his name be made known. It's for a particular reason that he
5 doesn't want his face shown on the TV.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then, as long as everybody is aware of the
7 situation. You proceed.
8 Examined by Mr. Smith:
9 Q. Witness, the protective measure in relation to your image has been
10 granted by the Court. Could you please look at a piece of paper in front
11 of you? It contains a name and a number alongside. If you would like to
12 refer to this individual in your testimony, could you please just use the
13 number and not the name? Do you understand?
14 A. Yes, yes, I do.
15 JUDGE HUNT: That document will be Exhibit P427 and it will be
16 under seal.
17 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Witness, what is your name?
19 A. Juso Taranin.
20 Q. And how old are you?
21 A. Sixty -- no, 71.
22 Q. And what ethnicity are you?
23 A. Muslim.
24 Q. Are you married?
25 A. I am.
1 Q. And you have three adult children?
2 A. Correct, yes.
3 Q. In early April, 1992, where did you live?
4 A. In Foca.
5 Q. Is that the town of Foca?
6 A. I beg your pardon? Yes, in the town of Foca.
7 Q. And in what neighbourhood did you live?
8 A. Gornje Polje, Branko Gagovic Street BB.
9 Q. And about how far from the centre of the town of Foca was that?
10 A. Well, some 600 to 700 metres maybe.
11 Q. Did you live in a seven-storey apartment block?
12 A. I did, yes, on the seventh floor.
13 Q. About how many apartments were in that apartment building?
14 A. Thirty-two perhaps. I'm not quite sure but I reckon that's how
15 many because there was a lift so I always took the lift. I never counted
17 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of the occupants in the building,
18 whether they were all Serb or all Muslim or 50/50, or some other?
19 A. Well, two, three, or four flights more is how many more Serbs were
20 there than Muslims before the war.
21 Q. The other group was the Muslim group, is that right, people of
22 Muslim ethnicity?
23 A. Muslims, right. Yes, Muslims.
24 Q. Were you living with your wife at that time?
25 A. I was.
1 Q. How long had you lived in the town of Foca by early April 1992?
2 A. Since 1960.
3 Q. You lived in a village in Foca before that; is that correct?
4 A. The village of Brusna, Foca municipality.
5 Q. In 1992 had you retired?
6 A. No. It was in 1987 that I was retired.
7 Q. Where did you work before you retired?
8 A. Maglic company, plywood and other timber products factory.
9 Q. You were a machine operator there; is that correct?
10 A. It is, yes.
11 Q. In 1992 were you a member of any political party?
12 A. No, no party.
13 Q. Were you assigned to any military unit?
14 A. No.
15 Q. At this time did you have a weekend house in Pilipovici in Foca?
16 A. I did.
17 Q. And that's a village in Foca. And about how far away from Foca
18 town is it?
19 A. It is a village, yes, about eight kilometres, thereabouts. I'm
20 not quite sure, but something like that.
21 Q. And is that on the main road between Foca and Gorazde?
22 A. Well, you could say that. It's not on the road directly, but you
23 can see it. It's on a slight elevation.
24 Q. And could you see the main road from your house, your weekend
25 house in Pilipovici?
1 A. I could. I could. Which leads to Gorazde.
2 Q. And approximately how many houses were in the village of
4 A. My house, my cottage was in the village, but there were very many
5 houses in the village. I don't know how many, because there were others
6 scattered, but many houses.
7 Q. And what was the main ethnicity of the people in the village?
8 A. Muslims, all of them.
9 Q. Was there also a JNA fuel depot in the village of Pilipovici?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And about how far from your weekend house was that JNA fuel depot?
12 A. Four hundred, five hundred metres, thereabouts.
13 Q. And in early April 1992 were you caused to leave the Foca town to
14 go to your weekend house in Pilipovici?
15 A. Yes. I was forced to go. I had reason to go.
16 Q. And can you explain to the Court why you left Foca town and
17 travelled to Pilipovici?
18 A. Well, the day before I left there was a lot of gunfire in the
19 town, and we were in that building. We went downstairs to the ground
20 floor. There were quite a number of us, both Serbs and Muslims. And that
21 night, during the gunfire, I would go out several times when there would
22 be a lull there, and go up to my floor, to the seventh, cast a look, see
23 that nothing is on fire, that one can see that anything had been set on
24 fire, but one could hear those huge detonations, and then I would go back
25 to the cellar again, that is, to the entrance. And that is how we spent
1 that whole night.
2 The next day, a man who was there with me set off down to
3 Ustikolina, and I left with him to that village of Pilipovici, and that's
4 where I was and nobody, nothing -- we left around 10.00 and there was
5 nobody. I couldn't see a living soul anywhere. Only a car passed by now
6 and then. And we went through when there was no gunfire at all. There
7 was no gunfire at all during the day. And I thus went to Pilipovici and I
8 got to my cottage in Pilipovici. And there I spent some time, 15, 10, 15
9 days. I don't know how many exactly.
10 Q. If I can stop you there, Mr. Taranin. Do you remember what time
11 this shooting and detonations started that night, the night before you
12 left, approximately?
13 A. Well, about 10.00, 9.00, 10.00 in the evening, and then it went on
14 all night.
15 Q. And about what time in the morning did it cease?
16 A. Well, when the day began to break.
17 Q. I think you said that you went out to the -- or you looked to see
18 where the shooting and detonations was coming from. Do you know where it
19 was coming from?
20 A. Well, mostly around the town. And in those parts where we were,
21 where I was, I could not observe any shooting near that building because
22 it was slightly on the side towards Brod, down the Drina.
23 Q. And what were the residents of the building doing, the Muslims and
24 Serbs? Were you taking -- were people taking cover?
25 A. Well, what I know, people worked. It was April. It was the
1 sowing season. And I also worked around my cottage, planting potatoes,
2 all sorts of vegetables, and people in around the village did the same
4 Q. Sorry, I'm sorry, I meant during the night whilst the shooting and
5 detonations were occurring. What were the occupants of the building
6 doing, the apartment building that you lived in, during the night?
7 A. During the night, those who were in the building, they were all
8 downstairs on the ground floor in that building of mine, or perhaps
9 somebody was -- if he was not afraid, perhaps he stayed in his flat. But
10 I think that those were few and far between.
11 Q. And why were they on the ground floor? Were they seeking cover
12 from any possible shooting or shelling?
13 A. Right, seeking shelter from shelling, from gunfire, and to see
14 that nobody entered the building. Men were in front of the building,
15 Serbs and Muslims both.
16 Q. And you said that morning that you left for Pilipovici. Had other
17 Muslims left your apartment building as well?
18 A. No, only that one and I, but there weren't many, no. I don't
19 know. Only the two of us left, and my wife, because the wife and children
20 of that other one were down there in Ustikolina.
21 Q. And you mentioned that a friend of yours took you to Pilipovici?
22 A. Yes, yes. That friend, that neighbour from the building.
23 Q. So as far as you know, you were the only ones that left. The
24 Muslims and the Serbs from the building stayed there?
25 A. Stayed.
1 Q. In the apartment building?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. And why did you leave that morning?
4 A. Well, I left mostly because of that -- all that gunfire and
5 because I had my cottage down there, so because I was afraid, because I
6 was fearful. I don't know.
7 Q. And before this night of shooting and shelling, did you notice any
8 political or administrative changes in the town of Foca, in terms of the
9 control of political or administrative facilities?
10 A. Well, yes, I did. I did notice that something was afoot, that
11 there would be a conflict. And then I listened to Radio Foca. The
12 parliament there was in session and they were negotiating and it was said
13 that they could not reach an agreement not to have a conflict. It was a
14 couple of days, a day, two days, before the gunfire started, and that was
16 Q. Do you know what date the gunfire started?
17 A. I wouldn't know that, no, I wouldn't. No. I did not think about
18 it at all.
19 Q. And before this night of gunfire, were there any changes in the
20 control of the radio station or the police station or other facilities?
21 A. It was said they had taken the post office, the police, the radio
22 station, Foca Radio, and that was that.
23 Q. And when you say "they," who do you mean by that?
24 A. Why, the SDS.
25 Q. And how did you hear this, this takeover of these facilities?
1 A. Radio Foca, Radio Foca, broadcast that -- because they took that
2 over immediately that evening, before the shooting started.
3 Q. And what was the relationship, the social relationships, between
4 Muslims and Serbs before the night of the gunfire, just generally?
5 A. Well, it depends. They were good -- I mean, they were quite all
6 right in my building. In my building, the relations were quite all
7 right. They were good.
8 Q. Before the night of the shooting, did you see weapons being
9 distributed to other people in your apartment building?
10 A. Yes. I saw weapons being issued to the Serbs before the shooting
11 started, before that night.
12 Q. And who was issuing the weapons?
13 A. I don't know, officers, but they came in a car and issued weapons
14 and clothes. I mean those military clothing, who wanted to take them, but
15 they did it by surnames.
16 Q. And where was this happening?
17 A. In the yard in front of the building.
18 Q. And were you with the group that were receiving the weapons or
19 were you in some other place? Were you in your apartment?
20 A. No, no, no. I was not there. I was not exactly there. I was in
21 the yard, on the other side of the yard. And in the entrance to the
22 right, a car came in and they stopped there. It was all organised,
23 distributed. They knew who to give them to by surnames. Never tried to
24 hide it.
25 Q. And about how many Serbs from your apartment building did you
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 receive -- did you see receive weapons?
2 A. Well, I wouldn't know the exact number but there were -- those who
3 were -- who stood guard with me, they all had weapons in the cellar.
4 Q. Can you give an approximate number of the people that you saw that
5 were receiving weapons? Not an exact number, but an approximate.
6 A. Well, I'm telling you: By and large, all those who were with me
7 had weapons with them. Whether they had all come there, I don't know, but
8 they were not hiding anything, anything. Well, what to say? There could
9 have been about ten men with some weapons in the building, I mean, in
10 front of the building.
11 Q. And was it -- did you see these ten men on that morning when the
12 vehicle pulled up distributing the weapons?
13 A. Not -- I didn't see those people really, because, you know, I
14 moved away not to look at those people, because, you know, it wasn't
15 simple. I mean, nobody tried to stop me, but I simply didn't feel like
16 looking. I just realised it wasn't -- things were not good.
17 Q. Do you know what type of weapons were being distributed that
18 morning, or that day?
19 A. Rifles mostly.
20 Q. And was it during the day or the night that you saw this?
21 A. Late afternoon, yes, but it was daytime, daytime. Yes, afternoon.
22 Q. You mentioned that after the night of shooting and shelling and
23 detonations, you went to Pilipovici and you stayed there for I think about
24 16 or so days. During that time what were you doing?
25 A. Yes. Well, I planted potatoes, onions, that sort of thing. I
1 went there and dug a little around my vegetable garden and looked around
2 me to see what was going on and trying to reckon what to do, where to go.
3 I watched people go down on the road, go past, and I saw them towards
4 Ustikolina. It was a column of the former detainees, former convicts, and
5 they were also passing in cars. People went by every day towards
6 Gorazde. They walked by from all the surrounding villages in Foca.
7 Q. And do you know what ethnicity these people were, or could you not
9 A. I can't -- I couldn't tell you that. I'm not sure. I couldn't,
10 because it was too far away, so ...
11 Q. And was there a constant flow of these people going towards
12 Gorazde over this period of time or was it sporadic?
13 A. Well, I didn't look all the time, and it was now and then, in
14 groups mostly. They would walk by in groups, and one could see women and
15 children, everybody.
16 Q. Were you receiving news as to what was occurring over this time in
17 other parts of Foca?
18 A. No. No. I didn't have a radio. There was no electricity,
19 nothing. I may have heard something from somebody. That was the only way
20 I could learn anything; otherwise, nothing, I mean, while I was in
22 Q. And after this time, did you decide to go to the JNA fuel depot?
23 A. I did decide that, yes, because I knew that officer and I decided
24 to go to him. I thought that the army, the former Yugoslav one, would
25 protect me, and that officer told me that I could be protected.
1 Q. Without mentioning that officer's name, does his name appear on
2 that page in front of you with the number 120? Don't say his name.
3 A. I don't know. 120, yes.
4 Q. And did your wife go to the JNA fuel depot as well for protection?
5 A. Now, there was trouble with the wife. She said she would come. I
6 left shortly before her and she stayed behind. She did not come.
7 Q. And do you know the exact date that you went to the compound or
8 the fuel depot?
9 A. I can't be sure about the date. I just know that it was Easter.
10 Q. And this was the Serb Orthodox Easter; is that right?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. And when you arrived at the depot, were there other people like
13 yourself seeking protection there?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And about how many were there?
16 A. Well, there were a lot, about 70 women, men, children; 60, 70,
17 something like that. I didn't count them, but it's somewhere around
19 Q. About how many of them were men?
20 A. Well, about 20 men, approximately, adult men, that is.
21 Q. And do you know what --
22 A. I don't know the exact number, but somewhere around that.
23 Q. And do you know what ethnicity this group was, this group of 70?
24 A. All were Muslims. There was only one Serb.
25 Q. And were there any JNA soldiers guarding the fuel depot?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that day that you arrived at the fuel depot, did some other
3 soldiers --
4 A. Yes. When I got in -- when I got in, there were soldiers inside.
5 Q. And these were JNA soldiers?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And later that day, was the fuel depot taken over by another group
8 of soldiers?
9 A. Later, when they attacked that depot, there were different
10 soldiers. They were the White Eagles and the Serb guard. There weren't
11 any more soldiers. I don't know where they were, but they were somewhere
12 around. At any rate, they were not in our depot where we were, the
13 civilians. These guys came in and they kicked all of us out, out of the
15 Q. When you say they kicked you out of the depot, did they kick you
16 out of a building that you were being protected in within this JNA depot?
17 A. Yes. Out of that hangar, warehouse, depot, whatever you call it.
18 It was a hangar, I guess, for vehicles. It was something like an
19 underground thing. And then when they kicked us out, we all went out.
20 They made us all line up and put our hands up. As for the women and
21 children, they returned them into this depot and they started beating us,
22 mistreating us. They forced us to sing. They searched us. They took
23 away whatever people had: money, gold. First they made us take everything
24 out of our pockets, then they searched us. So they mistreated us there
25 for about two or three hours, beat us. They even shot some people.
1 Things like that. Cursed us.
2 Q. How many people did they shoot?
3 A. I know the names of two of them, but they killed about five or six
4 or seven people, I believe. But I only know two. They were from a
5 village there. I did not know everybody who was there.
6 Q. And how were these people selected for the shooting?
7 A. An officer came and he pulled out some piece of paper, and then he
8 started calling out names. And then, when he would call out various
9 names, and then when he would ask, "Who is that to you?" And if this
10 person would say it was his son, then he would make him lie on the ground
11 immediately, on his stomach. When he would order that, when he finished
12 this roll-call, then they got these people up and then they took us about
13 10 metres away from us and they executed them. They shot them.
14 Q. After these people were shot, did you notice whether they in fact
15 had been killed?
16 A. No, I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't see that. All of them
17 lay there. I couldn't notice, and we didn't dare look either. "Hands
18 up," and we had to look at them only. It wasn't that there was one of
19 them only. There were about 20 of them, of these White Eagles, and these
20 members of the Serb guard. Because that's what it said on their arms.
21 Q. And these White Eagles, what ethnicity were they?
22 A. Well, judging by the dialect, it seems that they were from
23 Serbia. As far as I could see by their dialect, by the way they spoke,
24 you know -- you know what dialect is. When they curse at you, when they
25 cuss at you, when they say bad things to each other, I understand by this
1 dialect that they were from Serbia.
2 Q. And were you yourself personally mistreated?
3 A. Yes, yes, yes. Even put a knife to my throat. And he said to me,
4 "What are you going to do if I slaughter you now?" And I just looked him
5 in the eye, nothing else, and then he turned his knife around and he put
6 it back in.
7 Q. And after this shooting, you mentioned that you were at the depot
8 for about two or three hours. Were you taken to KP Dom in Foca that day?
9 A. Yes, yes, that day, that day. That day when they finished
10 whatever they had to do, what -- I mean this mistreatment, these killings,
11 how should I know? Then he ordered us to go in front of this
12 administration building where this officer was. He ordered us all to go
13 there. He said that a bus would come and if anybody would try to run
14 away, he'd be killed on the spot. Then we waited there for a while and
15 two buses came. They put us into one bus and they were in the other bus.
16 This other bus was for them and probably for those soldiers. I didn't see
17 all of this. I just saw our bus being loaded. One stood in front -- at
18 the front door and the other one stood by the back door. So there is an
19 entrance and there is an exit, so one stood in front and the other one
20 stood in the back, and that's how we left. But we did take about two or
21 three hours to reach Foca.
22 Q. And if we can just go back a moment, what were the names of the
23 two people that you knew were killed?
24 A. Salko Sehovic and Dedovic, Dedovic.
25 Q. If you can't remember the first name, that's okay. How old was
2 A. Meho, Meho, Meho Dedovic. He was an elderly man, pretty old, over
3 80, as a matter of fact.
4 Q. And Salko Sehovic, how old was he?
5 A. I don't know. I can't say. Probably my age or perhaps a few
6 years younger.
7 Q. And you mentioned that you all got on the bus, on one bus. Was
8 that all of the refugees --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- at this fuel depot, except for the ones that were killed?
11 A. Everybody, everybody, everybody.
12 Q. And on the way to the KP Dom, did you pass by a village named
14 A. A village of Paunci. It was all afire. All the houses were set
15 on fire.
16 Q. And was that a Serb or a Muslim village, do you know?
17 A. It was a Muslim village but there were two Serb houses as well --
18 no, three. Two or three Serb houses, but at the very beginning of the
19 village. I know when I went out for the week -- for weekends, I know that
20 I passed by them. There was also a servicing station for cars, for
21 repairing cars, something like that.
22 Q. And about how many houses did you see on fire in this village?
23 A. Well, how can I know? I mean, I just saw them on fire. How could
24 I know how many? Because what could I think about? I just thought, let
25 them kill me so that I don't suffer.
1 Q. And on the way to the KP Dom in Foca, did you stop at Velecevo
2 women's prison?
3 A. Yes, we did.
4 Q. And how long did you stay there?
5 A. Well, about half an hour, perhaps. I can't say for sure but we
6 were there for about half an hour.
7 Q. And do you know why you stopped there?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. And then after this half an hour, you were taken to the KP Dom in
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom or the entrance to the KP Dom, did
13 you see anyone else there outside of the prison?
14 A. We did not. It was night-time.
15 Q. And how many soldiers were guarding you on the bus?
16 A. Two. I saw two soldiers, one in the front and one in the back.
17 Q. And were they the soldiers that took over the depot at
19 A. No, no. I mean, it was these White Eagles and the guard.
20 Q. And the two people on the bus -- sorry, it was two members of the
21 White Eagles that -- or the guards that were guarding you on the bus; is
22 that right?
23 A. Yes, yes, yes. That's right.
24 Q. And when you got to the KP Dom's entrance, were you handed over to
25 anyone, to any other guards or police or soldiers?
1 A. They made us go out. They said the men should go out. They took
2 us out, they lined us up, and the police came out of the KP Dom and took
3 us over.
4 Q. These police that came out of the KP Dom, do you remember what
5 they were wearing?
6 A. Police uniforms, and they carried batons and pistols.
7 Q. And what colour were these uniforms?
8 A. What was that?
9 Q. What colour were the uniforms?
10 A. Well, the uniforms were bluish, greenish, I mean darkish. You
11 know, like they wore before, like policemen wore before, KP Dom
12 policemen. It was the same like that previous uniform, bluish, greenish,
13 sort of a petrol colour. Well, it would be hard for me to say with 100
14 per cent certainty.
15 Q. When you say "KP Dom policemen," do you mean KP Dom guards or
16 special police attached?
17 A. Guards, guards, guards.
18 Q. How long were you kept outside the KP Dom before you went inside?
19 A. Well, I thought there were -- it was 10 or 15 minutes, 15 at the
20 most, because this policeman said, "Had they been searched?" And they
21 said yes. And then he said, "Take them in there." And that was all.
22 Q. And were the women and children taken inside as well?
23 A. I did not see. I did not see. They drove us up -- they drove
24 them up there too, but they didn't come in with us.
25 Q. And you went inside with the other men, about 20, is that right?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. And once were you taken inside the building, what happened to
4 A. Nothing. The policemen -- I mean, the guards took us into a
5 building, the first building there by the entrance. Then we went
6 upstairs. He opened the door. We walked in and we found lots of
7 prisoners there.
8 Q. About how many prisoners were in this place where you were bought
10 A. There were a lot. I can't say for sure, but I think there were
11 about 100 of them, certainly; I mean, over there in that building, that
12 ground floor where they -- those ground floor rooms where they brought us.
13 Q. And was this a separate building to the building that you
14 initially went in when you first arrived?
15 A. Yes, there was a separate entrance. There was a separate
16 entrance, into the building, I mean.
17 Q. And when you went into this separate entrance, did you have to go
18 up any stairs or was the room that you were taken to on the same floor of
19 the entrance?
20 A. The building is a bit high up, higher than the entrance into the
21 KP Dom itself. There are some steps. So then when you enter the
22 building, there aren't any stairs, or at least I can't remember that there
23 were any.
24 Q. And when you went in that entrance, did you turn left or right to
25 go to this room where it was quite crowded?
1 A. The left.
2 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, if I can ask that P88 - it's the sketch
3 of the KP Dom - be shown to this witness.
4 Q. Witness, if you could point on that sketch, point to the building
5 or the entrance that you were taken to before you got to the room and
6 where you saw those large number of prisoners. Take your time to have a
8 A. I'm not very knowledgeable about these drawings and things like
9 that, but I'll try to show you whatever you ask.
10 Q. If you can look at the map. Does that look familiar to you in
11 relation to the layout of the KP Dom?
12 JUDGE HUNT: When you say "map," do you mean the sketch or is he
13 also meant to be looking at the plan, Exhibit 6?
14 A. It does look like it. It does look like it. Sketch, I'm not very
15 good at that kind of thing. I'm not very good at that kind of thing. But
16 if I'm not 100 per cent sure, I'll tell you. This is the entrance, here.
17 You walk by this building, this is where the entrance is, and then you go
18 here, and then -- and then you enter this building here, here.
19 MR. SMITH: Your Honour --
20 A. You turn to the left.
21 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, he indicates the entrance to building A
22 and had the pointer moving towards the left on the ground floor. I did
23 mean sketch, not map, and he's unfamiliar with the map, so that's why
24 we're using the sketch, Your Honour.
25 Q. And as you entered the entrance, you didn't go up any stairs; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes. Well, we came in front of the building, yes. But then when
3 we entered the building, no, no. I can't remember, perhaps, but there
4 weren't any stairs. Perhaps there were about two stairs, one or two, but
5 I can't remember. Because until then, I had never, ever in my life
6 entered that KP Dom.
7 MR. SMITH: Thank you. Thank you, Witness.
8 For the record, Your Honour, I believe the witness is referring to
9 Room 11 on the plan 6/2A.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'm glad you think so, or you believe so. It's
11 anything but clear, if I may say so. I don't suppose we need worry unless
12 there's some real issue taken about it.
13 MR. SMITH:
14 Q. And the people that were in this room, were they Muslims, that you
15 were taken to?
16 A. All were Muslims.
17 Q. How long did you spend in this room?
18 A. I spent two nights in that building.
19 Q. In this room were most people sleeping on the floor or on beds?
20 A. Well, I slept on the floor, but there were a lot on tables, on the
21 floor. I don't know. Those who came in first managed to get a hold of
22 the beds and then there weren't any beds left, so those who came later
23 slept on the floor or on tables. There were also some benches, so they
24 could sleep there too. But then we slept between the beds. That's where
25 we slept, depending on where each person found some room.
1 Q. And whilst you were in these two rooms - sorry - whilst you were
2 in this room over these two nights, did any people from outside of the KP
3 Dom come and question you about the conditions that you were living in?
4 A. No, nobody. Actually, two women came. Two women came when I
5 spent those two nights in that room. On the next day, two women came, and
6 one looked like some kind of a translator or something. You could see
7 this red cross. There was a red cross on their uniforms. And they asked,
8 "Is this the way you sleep?" And some people said, "Yes, that's where we
9 sleep, down here." A policeman brought them in, a guard, that is, and
10 then she told the policeman that he had to go out. And then he answered
11 back. He said, "You go out," and they had to go out and he went with
13 Q. And how long were they there for asking about the conditions
14 before they were told to leave?
15 A. Well, they were there for five minutes, not even that long. Five
17 Q. And after you were in this room for a couple of nights, were you
18 moved to another room?
19 A. Yes. The next day a guard came and transferred all of us, all of
20 us who had come from Pilipovici - and I don't know who else was
21 there - transferred us all to this other building right next to this one.
22 The same kind of room. The rooms that we were transferred to were just
23 like the rooms that we had been in.
24 MR. SMITH: And if P88 could be put in front of the witness again,
1 Q. Witness, can you just point with the pointer on the entrance that
2 you went into to get to the second --
3 A. From this building, we went to -- from that building we went to
4 this building here, here.
5 Q. Witness, if you could place the pointer on the entrance that you
6 went into, into that second building, on the sketch.
7 A. Well, I'm not really good at this. If I were there, I could show
8 you easily. But we came to this building. We moved to this building.
9 Now, is it this one? But it was the adjacent building. It was -- they
10 were right next to one another. We just came from this one and we walked
11 in a straight line and came to another building like this one.
12 Q. Did you go to the building that is marked B, the entrance to the
13 building marked B? If you can look at the sketch.
14 A. I could not say that, because I never gave it a thought, the
15 number of the building or anything, never paid any attention to things
16 like that, never. Whether it's B or C or D, never paid any attention, and
17 I really couldn't say.
18 Q. This second building that you went into, once you went into the
19 entrance of that building, was the room that you went into on the same
20 floor or on a higher floor than the entrance?
21 A. Again, a ground-floor room, a ground-floor room. As soon as you
22 enter the building, just as you enter the building, to the left, that's
24 MR. SMITH: Thank you.
25 We're finished with the map. Thank you. Sketch.
1 Q. When you were taken into this room, were there any other detainees
2 in that room when you arrived, other than the group you arrived with?
3 A. I suppose so. There must have been other detainees. Must have
4 been, because less than 55 of us moved house; and yes, we were 55 at the
5 time of the roll-call that evening.
6 Q. And just to be clear, the group that you left -- that you left
7 with from the first room, was that the group of 20 that you arrived with
8 at the KP Dom, approximately 20?
9 A. Well, yes. You could say that practically almost all of those
10 from Pilipovici who arrived with me, yes, they almost all of them came to
11 that building.
12 Q. And the total number, including this group, that you arrived with
13 was 55 in the second room; is that right?
14 A. Yes, in the evening, when they lined us up and then roll-called
15 us, each one of us.
16 Q. And what was the ethnicity of the group in this room, of 55?
17 A. Muslims, all of them.
18 Q. And about how long did you stay in this second room?
19 A. Ten, 15 days I was there, thereabouts. I'm not sure, but
21 Q. And you were released from the KP Dom after this?
22 A. Yes. I was taken for interrogation to the investigator, and I was
23 at the investigator's. And after two days, that is on the third day, I
24 was released.
25 Q. And who interrogated you at the KP Dom?
1 A. I've never -- I never saw that man whilst a civilian but the
2 detainees -- detainees told me that he was now -- what was it, Koprivica,
3 that was Koprivica, nice young man, quite young, but I never knew him
4 until that day. I never set my eyes on him. I don't know his first
5 name. The last name is Koprivica. And they said -- and I was told that
6 he was Koprivica. I didn't know him and he also said so when
7 interrogating me. He gave me his full name but I just didn't remember his
8 first name.
9 Q. And what questions were you asked by him?
10 A. When I entered, it was, "Good morning" -- "Good day," "Good day."
11 "Want to smoke?" "No, I don't smoke, thank you." "First name, last
12 name." And then he asked me, "Where is your weapon?" "Father's name."
13 He says, "Where is your weapon? What party were you a member of?"
14 "None." "Where is your weapon?" "Never had weapons in my life."
15 And so he went on for a while, and when I said Juso Taranin, then
16 he asked me, "And what is Mensa Taranin to you?" I said she was my
17 daughter. And then he changed his opinion about me and stopped provoking
18 me. He picked up the typewriter and wrote and said, "Is this okay?" "It
19 is." "Sign it."
20 Q. And did you sign it?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. And did you ask him for help to get you out of the KP Dom?
23 A. No, no, I didn't. All he said was, "Well, if I can help you, I
25 Q. And where were you interrogated? Which building?
1 A. That building that I went in when I was brought there. From the
2 yard, I went into it and then up those stairs, and I started upstream, the
3 Drina by passage, and I reached an office. And I had a guard because a
4 guard was with me all the time. And he came to the penitentiary, called
5 out my name, took me with him, and I followed him, and took me in front of
6 the office, and he told me to stand there and wait there, and he waited
7 too. And when this man came out, Koprivica, then I went into his office,
8 and the guard left.
9 Q. And did the guard take you back to your room after the
11 A. Yes, yes, he did. When I -- when my interrogation was over, the
12 guard came again and took me back to the same room.
13 Q. And what colour uniform was the guard wearing?
14 A. Like all the guards, they all had the same kind of uniforms. Like
15 the first -- like all the uniforms, they were not different uniforms, the
17 Q. What colour?
18 A. Oh, it was greenish-blue, something like that flag over there,
19 looks like it.
20 JUDGE HUNT: This is the United Nations flag, is it?
21 MR. SMITH: Can't see the green.
22 A. No, no, no. I mean the colour. The colour I mean. Looked like
23 it. Perhaps a bit lighter or perhaps darker. I'm not really good at
25 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps for all our memories, the record should
1 record that it is the usual United Nations sky-blue flag.
2 MR. SMITH: Thank you.
3 Q. Were other detainees interrogated like yourself whilst you were at
4 the KP Dom?
5 A. Yes, yes. Except I don't know if it was Koprivica. I did not see
6 who interrogated them, nor did we talk much about who interrogated you.
7 Q. About how many people from your room were taken for interrogation
8 every day, if it happened every day?
9 A. No, not every day. Not in my room. In my room, no, it didn't
10 happen every day. Two or three per day, now and then.
11 Q. When you say "two or three per day," is that two or three from the
12 whole detention centre, taken for interview, for interrogation, as far as
13 you knew?
14 A. I don't know, I don't know. I did not see other rooms. I could
15 see only who went from my room. Couldn't see anything outside.
16 Q. So you're saying that about two or three would be taken from your
17 room on certain days but not every day?
18 A. No, no, no, not every day, no.
19 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, did you see any detainees with
20 recent injuries on them?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And if you can think carefully, for the time that you were there,
23 about how many people did you see with recent injuries?
24 A. I saw some three or four men.
25 Q. Do you know the names of any of these men?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. I do know, yes. I know one. Rahman Taib.
2 Q. Rahman Taib?
3 A. Yes, Rahman Taib.
4 Q. What injuries did he have?
5 A. Oh, he had horrible injuries on his face and head and back, and we
6 used some damp, some wet rags to put on him. I don't know if he survived,
7 I don't know. But I was there. I wondered if he would live, but he was
8 still alive when I left.
9 Q. Can you describe what the injuries looked like?
10 A. He was all black. His eyes were all swollen.
11 Q. From his injuries, could you tell how he was injured?
12 A. Beating, blows with rifles, I mean rifle butts, batons, boots,
13 what do I know? On the back, we took -- we took his clothes off him and
14 then put wet rags on his back.
15 Q. Did he tell you or anyone else how he received those injuries?
16 A. No, no, no, no, no, did not say anything. He did -- no, nobody
17 talked. We were afraid that perhaps one of us might be a snitch, so
18 nobody talked.
19 Q. And do you know where he received those injuries, either inside or
20 outside the KP Dom?
21 A. I don't know. I don't know where.
22 Q. When you first saw him at the KP Dom, did he have the injuries or
23 did he not have them?
24 A. He did not have them. He did not have the injuries when I saw him
25 first in the KP Dom, the first time.
1 Q. And which room did you see him in? Was it the first room or the
2 second room?
3 A. The second room.
4 Q. And how long after the first time when you saw him with no
5 injuries did you see him the next time with injuries?
6 A. I don't know. I'm not sure. Two, three days before that.
7 Q. Was any medical treatment offered to him by the guards, as far as
8 you know?
9 A. Never. A guard never entered except when they wanted to take us
10 for breakfast or lunch or dinner. The guard never entered. And in the
11 evenings when they roll-called us.
12 Q. And apart from the treatment that other detainees from your room
13 were giving Mr. Rahman, was any other treatment given to him whilst you
14 were at the KP Dom, medical treatment?
15 A. No, nothing. Nobody entered while I was there. After that, I
16 don't know.
17 Q. Now, you mentioned that you saw about three or four people with
18 recent injuries. Can you describe any of the injuries on the other people
19 that you saw, these other two or three?
20 A. I know that one had his arm broken, and another one or two of them
21 were badly beaten, not like Rahman, but they were all -- but they had been
22 beaten, and that one had his arm broken and he always held it like that.
23 Q. Do you know the name of the person that had his arm broken?
24 A. I don't. I don't. I don't.
25 Q. And when you first saw him --
1 A. And even had I known it, I would have forgotten it by now.
2 Q. And when you first saw him at the KP Dom, was the arm broken or
3 was it normal?
4 A. Well, I did not see him before when his arm wasn't broken, but
5 what happened when he came, it was broken.
6 Q. Do you know how he received this broken arm?
7 A. No, I don't know how it happened. I simply could see that he
8 could not use it, that it was just like that. He could not use it. He
9 couldn't do anything with it. And he said that this bone here had been
11 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicated the left forearm
12 and placed it across the front of his body.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
14 MR. SMITH:
15 Q. Do you know whether he received this broken arm before he arrived
16 at the KP Dom or whilst he was there?
17 A. No, it wasn't broken before, when he arrived, when he went there
18 for interrogation or wherever. I don't know. You just don't know. I
19 mean, your name is called out and -- I don't know where he was, whether he
20 was -- he had been to interrogation or what. I don't know. All you see:
21 He's just brought into the room, called out, goes out of the room, and
22 that's it.
23 Q. And how do you know it wasn't broken before he arrived at the KP
25 A. Because I was in the room with him.
1 Q. Was any treatment given to him by the authorities at the KP Dom?
2 A. No. No. No, not while I was there.
3 Q. Did he do anything for his injury or did other detainees try and
4 give some treatment for the injuries? Do you know?
5 A. Well, he tore his shirt and wrapped it around and held his arm
6 like this.
7 Q. Was the skin broken on the arm or was it --
8 A. No. No. I didn't come close to look. No, I didn't. I didn't
9 come close at all. It was those young -- those who knew better, what and
10 how to do, it's they who did it. I didn't come close. And he slept in
11 the other corner of the room.
12 Q. Did you notice a man whilst you were at the KP Dom with a badly
13 injured head?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know that person's name?
16 A. I don't. I don't.
17 Q. Can you describe the injury to his head?
18 A. Well, you know, he was struck here on the head, and this blood
19 that was there, it was never washed off; it was never cleaned. I saw him
20 in the room. Later on, others, I mean detainees, cleaned it and put some
21 cloth over it to stop bleeding.
22 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicates the right rear of
23 his head and the right side of his face with his right hand.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
25 MR. SMITH:
1 Q. Did he say how he received that injury?
2 A. No. No.
3 Q. When you first saw this man at the KP Dom, did he have the injury
4 or not?
5 A. No.
6 Q. He did not have the injury when you first saw him?
7 A. No. No.
8 Q. And you mentioned that there were another two or so detainees that
9 you saw were beaten, but not as badly as Taib Rahman.
10 A. No, they didn't. Yes, this one with his broken arm, but nobody
11 was beaten like Rahman.
12 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom - I'll only ask a few questions on
13 this, Your Honour - but did you get enough food to eat?
14 A. The food was horrible. I don't know how those people who were
15 there longer managed it. I wasn't there long, but if the food was that
16 bad all the time, I doubt if I would survive.
17 Q. Did you lose weight whilst you were there?
18 A. I did. Yes, I did lose some weight. I did.
19 Q. Did you receive enough food whilst you were there? You stated
20 that it was horrible, but did you receive enough?
21 A. You get a cup of tea in the morning; at noon you get a small pot
22 like this, you get some pasta or some potatoes or perhaps rice; and tea in
23 the evening, and a slice of bread, one bite.
24 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicated with his hands a
25 cup-size area when he was describing the amount of food.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
2 MR. SMITH:
3 Q. Did you know who the warden of the KP Dom was whilst you were
5 A. I did not. I didn't.
6 Q. Were you informed by other detainees who the warden of the KP Dom
7 was whilst you were there?
8 A. They did.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness said that he did not know
12 who was the warden while he was there, and the next question is whether
13 other prisoners told you that. And the witness said that he did not know
14 while he was there.
15 JUDGE HUNT: He said that he did not know whilst he was there.
16 Now, it depends, I suppose, what the meaning of the word "know" is. But
17 he's then asked, "Were you informed by anybody else?" What's the
18 problem? He's actually answered it.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is what I'm
20 saying, that he did not know, and my interpretation of this is that he was
21 not informed, that he had no knowledge about the identity of the warden,
22 if he says that he didn't know.
23 JUDGE HUNT: That may be your interpretation, but the Prosecution
24 is not bound by your interpretation. That's what I said. It depends upon
25 the word "know." He's already answered it, and if this question was not
1 pursued any further, we would be left with a contradiction on the record.
2 That would be a nonsense, if I may say so.
3 You proceed, Mr. Smith.
4 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Did you have personal knowledge of who the warden was whilst you
6 were at the KP Dom?
7 JUDGE HUNT: Could he be asked: Did he see anybody or something?
8 This is what the difference is, is it not? You are relying upon the word
9 "know" as having from his own perceptions known. Well, why don't you ask
10 questions which are directed to that, and then we can go into the hearsay
11 part of it.
12 MR. SMITH:
13 Q. Did you see the warden whilst you were at the KP Dom?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were you told by other detainees who the warden was whilst you
16 were at the KP Dom?
17 A. They spoke about it. They said they knew who that was. I didn't.
18 Q. Did they tell you who the warden was or not?
19 A. They said it was some Kunarac, I don't know. I didn't see him. I
20 didn't know. And I don't know that man. I don't know him at all.
21 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest to you, Mr. Smith, that now that the
22 hearsay evidence is in, it is of so little weight that we should not waste
23 any further time on it?
24 MR. SMITH: I agree, Your Honour. And it is time.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, we will adjourn now until 11.30.
1 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.
4 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Witness, you mentioned after about 10 or 15 days after you arrived
6 in the second room at the KP Dom you were released; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who was the first to tell you that you would be released?
9 A. Nobody told me. When the guard took me out -- I mean, when I came
10 to where they were in the guards' hut at the entrance, Slavko Koroman - he
11 was a guard, policeman, whatever - he said that I was free to go, that I
12 was released, whatever, because I knew him from before, in the civilian
14 Q. And did Slavko Koroman used to work at the KP Dom before the war?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, he appears at number 32 on Exhibit P3,
17 which is the list of the guards.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
19 MR. SMITH:
20 Q. And what did he tell you?
21 A. He just said that I was free to go. And I said to him, "Where
22 should I go?" Because the entire town was in flames, so to speak. There
23 was shooting. And also when I went out, I saw some other prisoners whom I
24 knew from before. I saw them standing there in front of the building, and
25 then we went through town together, and I came to my apartment.
1 Q. Did he give you a certificate when you left the KP Dom, confirming
2 your stay there?
3 A. Yes, yes. He gave me a certificate, and I gave it to you. You've
4 got it.
5 MR. SMITH: With the help of the usher.
6 Q. If you can look at the certificate now.
7 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this is a copy of the certificate on
8 Prosecution identification number 94 -- sorry. In fact, it's the original
9 certificate but you have it as number 94 and 94A. We have provided some
10 extra copies to the Registry -- I mean not the Registry --
11 JUDGE HUNT: Assuming that it goes into evidence, does it have to
12 be under seal? Because it doesn't seem to reveal anything other than his
14 MR. SMITH: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection to the tender of this,
16 Mr. Bakrac?
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. No.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, the original of this document will be exhibit
19 P94 and the English translation will be P94A.
20 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. On that release paper, it states that you had to report to the
22 police station every day, the Serbian -- the police station of the Serbian
23 Foca municipality. Did you do that?
24 A. Yes, every day, every day. I reported to the police in the
25 morning, every day, because Slavko told me that I had to report to the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 police every day, and it says so here too. And when I would come to the
2 police, I would have to tell them the number, 15.
3 Q. Now, that certificate has the date that you were kept at the KP
4 Dom as the 18th of April until the 3rd of May, 1992. Do you know whether
5 those dates are correct?
6 A. No, no, no. They are not correct. I'm not sure, actually.
7 Q. Also on that --
8 A. And I really wouldn't know the dates, to tell you the truth.
9 Q. And do you recognise any signatures on that confirmation
11 A. I don't really recognise it, but in my opinion, it seems to me
12 that this last signature here is Koroman's, that Koroman. I'm not sure.
13 That is just what I think. Because I'm not that literate. I can't tell
14 signatures apart very well.
15 Q. Which signature are you referring to? Is that number 3,
16 underneath the authorised employees of the Serbian Foca Police Station?
17 A. Number 3, signature number 3. I mean, I'm not sure, and I can't
18 say for sure that it is his signature, but I guess it is.
19 Q. And you guess it's the signature of Mr. Koroman, is that right, or
20 is it someone else?
21 JUDGE HUNT: Is it really worth pursuing this, Mr. Smith?
22 A. Koprivica, Koprivica. No.
23 JUDGE HUNT: I mean, what's the weight of it? He's illiterate and
24 he can only say he's guessing. Now, what's the weight of that?
25 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, with all due respect, I think he said
1 slightly more than guessing, but --
2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but if you read his evidence as a whole, you'll
3 see that he's really guessing. Do you think we could move on to something
4 that he can give evidence about?
5 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Right.
7 MR. SMITH:
8 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, were you ever told why you were
9 detained there?
10 A. No, never. No, no one ever told me.
11 Q. You said you went back to your apartment. About how long did you
12 stay in the town of Foca at your apartment? For about how many months?
13 A. Well, I stayed from the day of my release until the 4th of July.
14 Q. And did you stay with your wife during this time in your
16 A. Yes, with my wife.
17 Q. Now, you mentioned that you reported to the police station daily.
18 Who in particular did you report to? Was there any individual that you
19 had to report to?
20 A. The duty policeman, the town policeman on duty.
21 Q. And what did you have to do when you reported? Was it sign a card
22 or was there something more involved than that?
23 A. Nothing. I just had to tell him number 15.
24 Q. So your reporting at the police station was only for a very short
25 moment every day; is that right?
1 A. As soon as I'd walk in and say "number 15," I could leave
3 Q. Were other people obliged to report to the police station?
4 A. Yes. Those who were released from the KP Dom had to report, all
5 of them, because those who came to the police station told me, in front of
6 the police station, that they were coming the same way that I was.
7 Q. And about how many other people did you know were required to
8 report to the police?
9 A. We came from various parts of town, so I can't really tell you how
10 many. Everybody tried to leave before there were many soldiers and
11 policemen in town. You wanted to go there and to come back as soon as
12 possible, as quickly as possible, so you couldn't really see very much.
13 The policemen -- a policeman, if he would see me, would always ask me why
14 I was going out, because Muslims were forbidden to go out. And then I
15 would show him this certificate and then he would always tell me, "The
16 faster you go, the better for you." And also he would tell me, "Take the
17 same route you took on your way out. Go back the same way."
18 Q. And what ethnicity were the police at this police station?
19 A. All of them Serbs.
20 Q. And the other people that were required to report to the police
21 station that you knew, what ethnicity were they?
22 A. The ones I know were Muslims, and those who I don't know, I don't
24 Q. Do you know of any Serb men that were required to report to the
25 police station during this time?
1 A. I don't.
2 Q. You said that as you were going to the police station or coming
3 back, a policeman once said to you that Muslims were forbidden to go out.
4 Had you heard that before, before that policeman said that to you?
5 A. I heard that before through this loudspeaker that was taken round
6 town on a car, where it said that Muslims were forbidden from going about
7 town and whoever would be caught would be punished severely. That was
8 repeated several times for several days.
9 Q. And who did that car belong to? Did it have any markings on it?
10 Who was actually making these announcements?
11 A. I don't know who was in the car. There was a man, though. But
12 the car belonged to the Foca radio station, if you look at it.
13 Q. Did you hear these announcements of Muslims not being able to
14 leave their house on the radio as well or not?
15 A. I heard it on the radio too, but this loudspeaker was separate
16 from that, because on the radio you could hear things only at a given
17 point in time. You would turn on the radio and you would hear certain
18 things at a certain time but -- in your apartment, but then this
19 loudspeaker you could hear it all over town.
20 Q. And do you know who was making these announcements on the radio?
21 Any particular individual?
22 A. I don't know. I don't know.
23 Q. And when did you first start to hear that Muslims were not able to
24 leave their houses? When did you first hear this car or these radio
1 A. When I got out of the KP Dom, we were allowed to move about for a
2 few days, four or five days, and then when this loudspeaker came up, and
3 also all of this that was heard on the radio, that was it. Whoever would
4 go out would be liquidated overnight.
5 Q. Did you hear that message that whoever would go out would be
6 liquidated overnight over the radio or from the car or is that your
8 A. The radio station. I heard them say that whoever is caught going
9 out will be punished most severely.
10 Q. And was that being referred to -- were they referring to Muslims
11 and Serbs or just one of the groups?
12 A. Over the radio, it said the Muslims only.
13 Q. And the Muslims that you knew that were in Foca at that time, were
14 they abiding by this order?
15 A. As far as I'm concerned, I abided by that, but I cannot guarantee
16 whether the others did or not.
17 Q. And was your apartment searched during this period, after your
18 release from KP Dom?
19 A. Yes, twice, the military police.
20 Q. And what was the reason for them searching your apartment?
21 A. They were searching for a radio transmitter.
22 Q. And was there one there?
23 A. Well, I didn't really know what that was, frankly speaking.
24 Q. Do you know whether other Muslim apartments were searched during
25 this period?
1 A. On my floor, there was a Muslim, and, yes, his apartment was
2 searched too.
3 Q. And what about Serb apartments? Were Serb apartments in your
4 building searched; do you know?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How did you get food during this time? Before you left Foca and
7 after you left the KP Dom?
8 A. Well, there was war and there was this inflation, and then for a
9 certain period of time, some of my Serb neighbours brought me things.
10 They offered things to me, and that's how we managed to survive. We
11 cooked in the apartment, and we saved up so that we could eat.
12 Q. And the food that you had during this period, was it different, in
13 terms of quality and quantity, to the food that you received at the KP
15 A. Well, it was different but, you know, it was far better. You
16 know, you could buy things if you had the money to do so, if you would
17 give money to, say, a Serb kid, a child, who would go out, then he could
18 get things for you at the shop.
19 Q. During this period that you were in Foca, how were you treated
20 once you were released from the KP Dom?
21 A. Well, as far as the building is concerned, there were some leaders
22 there in the building, so nobody -- I mean, they didn't come to see me
23 lately but they didn't treat me badly.
24 Q. Were the Muslims that were living in the apartment building before
25 the war, were they still living there when you were released?
1 A. No, no, no. Very few of them. Three or four families were there
2 in that entire building altogether.
3 Q. Do you know where the other families had gone?
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. Were the Serb families that were there before the war, were they
6 in the building when you were released from the KP Dom?
7 A. Yes, yes. They were all in the building.
8 Q. Were threats made to people of Muslim ethnicity to leave Foca
9 after you were released from the KP Dom?
10 A. Well, that there would be buses and that we'd have to leave.
11 That's what a Serb told me. A Serb told me not to tell anyone, though,
12 that there would be buses, but that I shouldn't tell anyone, that my wife
13 should go and get a certificate and that we should go to Montenegro.
14 Q. And did your wife -- did your wife get a certificate?
15 A. Yes, yes. She went to the police and they gave her this
17 Q. And what did the certificate say?
18 A. I can't tell, really. I don't know. I didn't keep it. I mean,
19 just for as long as I got out.
20 Q. And where did she get the certificate from?
21 A. From the SUP.
22 Q. Is that the police station where you reported?
23 A. Well, you know, my wife went, and I think there was some kind of a
24 special point where these certificates were given. But at any rate, they
25 were issued by officials who worked at the police.
1 Q. You mentioned that Muslims from your apartment building had left
2 when you were released from the KP Dom. Were Muslims from other parts of
3 the town leaving as well? Do you know?
4 A. Well, probably. Probably, yes, but I could not know that much.
5 Q. I think you mentioned that you left Foca on the 4th of July, 1992;
6 is that right?
7 A. Yes. Yes, I think so. Yes, for sure. We came on the 3rd and we
8 left on the 4th. We could not actually leave on the 3rd, because there
9 were no buses.
10 Q. And where did you go to leave? Was it the bus station?
11 A. There was a bus station.
12 Q. And were there other people trying to leave Foca at that time, on
13 the 3rd of July?
14 A. I think there were about a thousand of us there, and about 530 or
15 something like that, about 530 of us got onto these four buses.
16 Q. And these thousand, were they Muslims people or were they people
17 of mixed ethnicity?
18 A. Primarily Muslims. Only the town police was at the bridge by the
19 station, and also over there by the department store. These soldiers were
20 passing by us. They were shooting above us, cursing at us, things like
22 Q. And these soldiers, do you know which unit they came from?
23 A. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know where from.
24 Q. Do you know whether they were Muslim or Serb soldiers?
25 A. Serb soldiers.
1 Q. And then you travelled and you left Foca on the 4th of July, 1992,
2 and you travelled to another country; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, we did, to Montenegro, and then through Montenegro to Serbia,
4 and from Serbia to Macedonia.
5 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination. Mr. Vasic.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:
9 Q. Good morning, Witness.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. May I introduce myself. I am Miroslav Vasic and I'm one of the
12 counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac. I'd like to ask you first,
13 because we speak the same language, to make the job easier slightly for
14 the interpreters, so will you please pause after you hear my question so
15 as to avoid us speaking on top of each other. Thank you.
16 Today you answered my learned friend in response to his question,
17 and you spoke about the events in Pilipovici in 1992 and you said that
18 people had sought shelter in the army depot which was there. Could you
19 tell us if those were local people from Pilipovici there?
20 A. No, not all of them were from Pilipovici.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. They were people from Pilipovici and they were also people from
23 Foca, from the town.
24 Q. You also spoke about how White Eagles had come and taken you out
25 of the hangar and that on that occasion Mr. Salko Sehovic and Mr. Meho
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 Dedovic were killed. Could you tell me, if you know, why they were
3 A. I don't.
4 Q. You also mentioned that the members of that unit which had come
5 read out from some lists. What was on those lists? Do you know?
6 A. I don't know. Yes, they did read names of some people, but I
7 don't know why.
8 Q. Did you, in your statement to the OTP, say that you thought that
9 those lists contained the members of the SDA? Will you just wait for the
10 interpretation to end, please.
11 A. Yes.
12 THE INTERPRETER: And the witness said "probably."
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. And persons who were killed, were they related in some way or the
15 other to those people who were on the lists, allegedly members of the SDA,
16 as you say?
17 A. Yes, I suppose so. Maybe their children or something. I don't
19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, it is very important that you give more time to
21 the interpreters to catch up before you answer the question. Just wait a
22 little bit longer, and then the interpreters will be able to catch up.
23 It's always very difficult for them when you're both speaking the same
25 Yes, Mr. Vasic.
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps I could
2 suggest -- perhaps I -- because I can follow the interpretation in
3 English, perhaps I could tell the witness when he should answer, because
4 he does not speak English. Perhaps that will resolve the problem.
5 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know how you propose to do that, Mr. Vasic.
6 Are you going to flag him? Let's see.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I can say, "Yes, will you go ahead."
8 Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Sir, you said that on that occasion, people who were killed had
10 been taken some ten metres away. Could you tell us in what direction?
11 Were they taken behind the hangar or -- yes, go ahead.
12 A. Right behind us. To the right from us.
13 Q. Thank you. And on that occasion, did the members of the White
14 Eagles break your eyeglasses?
15 A. Yes, they took my eyeglasses.
16 Q. Will you wait, please, for the interpretation? I will tell you
17 "go ahead" when the interpretation is over.
18 A. Yes, fine.
19 Q. Can you tell me if you have any difficulty with colours, sir?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Go ahead.
22 A. Yes, I do have difficulties with that.
23 Q. That is, you cannot distinguish colours?
24 A. Well, I distinguish some. I know some and I don't others. It
1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me the [indiscernible] of your
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me -- you described today your detention
5 in the KP Dom. While you were in the KP Dom, were you ill-treated
6 physically, beaten?
7 A. Yes, before I arrived in the KP Dom, not in the KP Dom.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. Today, you spoke about the prohibition of
9 movement which applied to Muslims in the town when you left the KP Dom.
10 And you also said that the policeman had told you to take the shortest way
11 back home. Can you tell me if the prohibition was introduced perhaps to
12 protect the Muslims? Was it safe for Muslims to move about the streets
13 which were full of troops and police?
14 A. Strange question, strange question, that it was for our safety.
15 To kill people and you call that safety.
16 Q. Because you said that the policeman had told to you take the
17 shortest way back because it was not safe to move about the town; that is
18 why I asked you.
19 A. Well, it depended on so that I wouldn't see what was going on.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you tell the OTP investigator, at the time when
21 you made your statement in 1995, that Colonel Kovac was the chief
22 commander of the Chetnik Crisis Centre, of the police and the army?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was he -- who was his deputy, do you know?
25 A. Simo Stanojevic.
1 Q. And did you see that Simo Stanojevic was the commander of the
2 Territorial Defence of Foca before the war?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. Are you familiar with the name Sulejman Pilav?
5 A. I've heard it, but I don't really know the man.
6 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Sulejman Pilav was in the Territorial
8 A. I don't.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. You told us today that when you came to the KP
10 Dom, you noticed guards wearing the same uniforms as the guards before the
11 war. After that, you said that you had never been to the KP Dom before
12 the war. Can you then explain how do you know what kind of uniforms did
13 the guards in the KP Dom have before the war?
14 A. You know how?
15 Q. Will you please wait until the interpretation is finished? Yes.
16 Go ahead.
17 A. You know how I know? Because before the war, the guards bought
18 their uniforms like now during the war, and I knew it because they came up
19 there where I worked. That is, the detainees from the KP Dom came to work
20 there, and guards were escorting them, so I could see the difference
21 between the town police and the guards, because there was a slight
22 difference in their uniforms.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. You told us today about your arrival in the KP
24 Dom, how you arrived there in a bus escorted by soldiers who had brought
25 you from Pilipovici and how they turned you over to the guards in the KP
1 Dom. And you said that a guard asked, "Have they been searched?" And
2 then you said that somebody said, "Take them in." Can you tell us who was
3 it that said that?
4 A. That soldier who had brought us.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. During your detention in KP Dom, did you see any
6 soldiers in the compound or around the buildings?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You spoke about Mr. Taib Rahman today and you told us how you knew
9 that he had been injured because he was in your room. Could you tell me,
10 when was he taken out?
11 A. I can't, because --
12 Q. Can you tell us when was he brought back to your room?
13 A. Well, that same day, the day that they took him out, that same day
14 they brought him back.
15 Q. But did you see him being taken away and coming back?
16 A. I did, because the guard entered, called out his name, took him
17 out, and the guard brought him back.
18 Q. Do you know which guard was that?
19 A. I don't.
20 Q. You spoke about a detainee with an injury to his head. Could you
21 tell us, where did you see that detainee?
22 A. In the room, in my room, in the room that I was in.
23 Q. And what was his name? Can you tell us that?
24 A. No, I can't tell you that. I've forgotten his name. I did know
25 what his name was. It was a long time ago.
1 Q. Thank you. You spoke today about how you listened to the radio
2 and that, among other things, you heard on the radio that the Muslims
3 could not move about. Could you tell us if you also heard whether there
4 was a curfew in Foca at the time, for all townsmen, in the evening?
5 A. No, I didn't. Only Muslims were prohibited to go out. The radio
6 station explicitly said Muslims are prohibited.
7 Q. Thank you. You said today that flats owned by people of Serb
8 origin in your building had not been searched. Before that you told us
9 that you only went out to report to the police. Could you then explain it
10 to us how is it that you know that those flats were not searched?
11 A. Because I went past them to the police every day.
12 Q. And how long would it take you to go from your flat through that
13 building and to the police and back?
14 A. Well, as long as it took me to go down -- to walk down the stairs.
15 Q. Can you tell us how long did it take you?
16 A. Well, you know, the seventh floor. You can calculate it for
18 Q. And on the basis of that time that it took you to walk down and
19 walk up, you concluded on the basis of that that the Serb flats were not
20 searched, is it?
21 A. Well, of course they were not searched, because some Serbs,
22 neighbours, came to my place, and they told me, and that was what they
23 told me, that they had not been searched.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. Today when asked by my learned friend, you said
25 that you were not a member of the SDA. Is that correct, or were you a
1 member of the SDA?
2 A. No, I wasn't.
3 Q. Were you a supporter of the SDA?
4 A. Well, I didn't really know that much about their role either.
5 Q. And in the multiparty elections, did you vote for the SDA?
6 A. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. I don't exactly know.
7 Q. Did you tell the OTP investigator in 1995, did you tell him that
8 in the elections of 1991 you voted for the SDA?
9 A. I say, maybe I did, but I don't know. It was a long time ago. I
10 can't really say.
11 Q. I shall read to you the sentence from your statement that you gave
12 on the 4th and 5th of May, 1995, to the OTP investigator. It is ID93 and
13 ID93A, and it says, in the third line, that is, the third passage:
14 "I was not a member of any of the new political parties. In the
15 elections of 1991 I voted for the SDA."
16 Did you state this?
17 A. I suppose I did.
18 Q. Can you tell me: Since you were not an SDA member or supporter,
19 why did you then vote for the SDA in 1991?
20 A. I'd rather not answer that kind of question.
21 Q. Was it the national polarisation on both sides, amongst the Serbs
22 and the Muslims, at that time?
23 A. I'd also not answer that question either.
24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
25 Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.
2 Any re-examination?
3 MR. SMITH: Yes. Just one question, Your Honour.
4 Re-examined by Mr. Smith:
5 Q. Witness, you're not wearing glasses today. Does that mean that
6 you only use glasses for reading?
7 A. That's right, yes. I have them here. But only when I have to
9 MR. SMITH: No further questions, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. That is the end of your evidence.
11 We are grateful to you for coming here to give that evidence. You are
12 free to leave, but would you wait a moment whilst the blinds are being
13 lowered so that you can leave without the public seeing you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. What are the protective measures for the
16 next witness?
17 MS. KUO: Your Honour, the next witness is 146 and he has a
18 pseudonym and image alteration.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE HUNT: The pseudonym sheet will be Exhibit P428 and it will
22 be under seal.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration in the
25 document that you are being handed, sir.
1 WITNESS: FWS-146
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Excellency,
4 Your Honours. I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole
5 truth, and nothing but the truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. Please sit down.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Examined by Ms. Kuo:
9 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. In front of you there is a sheet of paper, and that is Exhibit
12 P428. On it you will see FWS-146. Beneath that, is that your name?
13 A. It is.
14 Q. After your name, is that your birth date?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Thank you, Witness. You no longer need to refer to that piece of
17 paper. Witness, in 1992, where did you live?
18 A. We lived in Rancici, Cajnice municipality.
19 Q. Were you married and did you have children?
20 A. Married, four children.
21 Q. What kind of work did you do?
22 A. I was a worker, blue-collar, in my firm.
23 Q. And what ethnicity are you, sir?
24 A. Muslim.
25 Q. Witness, in 1992, did you have a particular medical condition that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 required hospitalisation?
2 A. Yes. In 1990 I began to suffer from asthma.
3 Q. On April 1st, 1992, were you admitted to the hospital for asthma?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Which hospital was that?
6 A. Internal medicine ward, Foca.
7 Q. What kind of treatment did you receive?
8 A. They treated me super, and Dr. Milena had all the medicines, and
9 that is where I was admitted and treated.
10 Q. Were you required to stay overnight in the hospital?
11 A. Yes. I stayed there, and I was treated there for six months in
12 the Foca hospital.
13 Q. At the beginning, when you were admitted to the hospital, were you
14 told that you would be there for six months' treatment?
15 A. No. The doctor said, "We shall see if the ambulance from Gorazde
16 comes. Then we shall try to send you to Gorazde."
17 Q. Let me back up a little bit there. While you were receiving
18 treatment in Foca hospital, did the war in Foca start?
19 A. After seven days, the war started in Foca.
20 Q. Did the fact that the war started have an effect on the hospital?
21 A. No. I had medicines and I was treated. I'm telling you the
23 Q. Did people come to the hospital to seek shelter?
24 A. Yes. When there was this aggression, when the war broke out, the
25 hospital was practically full.
1 Q. The people who sought shelter at the hospital, what ethnicity were
3 A. It didn't matter. There were Serbs, there were Muslims. We were
4 all together. Somebody took a car, somebody fled from the hospital when
5 the war started.
6 Q. Did any soldiers come to the hospital?
7 A. I saw two kinds of soldiers when Foca fell.
8 Q. When did Foca fall?
9 A. Well, Foca fell -- I came on the 1st of April, so it was after
10 Bajram, around the 12th day.
11 Q. You said you saw two kinds of soldiers. What were the two kinds?
12 A. Well, in uniform, some kind of White Eagles. There were songs.
13 Then also the Foca Chetniks, and uniforms of the former JNA, and --
14 Q. Do you know what ethnicity the soldiers were?
15 A. Serbs.
16 Q. What did the soldiers do when they came to the hospital?
17 A. Nothing. They sang. They would carry a one-litre bottle of
18 brandy in their hands. They would walk around a bit and leave the
20 Q. Did the soldiers take over the hospital or set up anything at the
22 A. The hospital was blocked.
23 Q. What do you mean by that?
24 A. It was already taken. Basically, I wouldn't dare to move about.
25 There was shooting. Foca was on fire.
1 Q. I understand that you were not able to move about because there
2 was a war going on in Foca. Who was in charge of the hospital after Foca
4 A. I can't remember. I was sick.
5 Q. Did any soldiers set up any sort of artillery at the hospital?
6 A. I didn't see.
7 Q. Were you able to see any shooting coming from the hospital?
8 A. If I had been able to go to the terrace, I actually did go and I
9 saw that Foca was on fire, that there was shooting, and I went back to bed
10 because my health was the most important of all.
11 Q. Did you see a civilian or military truck get shot at?
12 A. Well, I just happened to go out on the terrace and I saw a kombi
13 van coming from the direction of Foca. It had set out for Gorazde. It
14 hadn't passed even a kilometre. In front of the hospital, there was a
15 machine-gun nest and they shot at the car from that nest, and I saw the
16 kombi van veer from the road, and it stopped there, and we heard moaning,
17 and then the ambulance came. There were some people who were wounded.
18 And then they were transferred to hospital. And I can't remember anything
20 Q. Could you tell whether the people in the van were wearing military
21 uniforms or not?
22 A. No.
23 Q. No, you couldn't tell or they were not wearing uniforms?
24 A. I couldn't see. It was far away.
25 Q. Was the kombi van itself a military vehicle?
1 A. No, civilian. These were civilians who had set out for Gorazde,
2 practically to flee. That's what I basically heard later.
3 Q. When you said the people inside that van were taken to hospital,
4 were they brought to the Foca hospital where you were?
5 A. The Foca hospital was where I was treated, where I lay, but I was
6 at the internal medicine ward and then there was this other building where
7 they took them in.
8 Q. During the time that you were in the Foca hospital, was the entire
9 medical staff -- did the entire medical staff stay working at the
11 A. Of course, the staff stayed there to work. I had medicine and my
12 treatment continued. I was still treated.
13 Q. The staff that continued to treat you, were they Serbs or
15 A. Serbs.
16 Q. Do you know what happened to the Muslim staff?
17 A. Well, cars came from Gorazde. They made phone calls, or people,
18 Muslim people, would cross the Drina on foot over the bridge, and they
19 would run away.
20 Q. My question was focused on the medical staff. Your description,
21 was that of the patients or of the medical staff, the Muslims patients or
22 the Muslim medical staff ran away?
23 A. As regards the humaneness of doctors and medical staff, they were
24 humane, they still treated us.
25 Q. Okay. Let me try to clarify this line of questioning. Witness,
1 you said that the staff that treated you were Serb. Right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you were first admitted to the hospital, were you treated by
4 Serb and Muslim doctors or at that time already were you treated only by
5 Serb doctors?
6 A. Please, I came to hospital on the 1st of April, 1992. I was
7 received by this lady doctor, Milena, at the internal ward where I was
9 Q. Do you know if there was a time when the Muslim staff and doctors
10 were arrested?
11 A. I didn't see.
12 Q. But do you know that they were taken away from the hospital?
13 A. Later I heard that there's no Muslim people, that they took some
14 from the hospital.
15 Q. What happened to the Muslim patients? You said you stayed at the
16 hospital. What happened to the other Muslim patients?
17 A. Yes. They worked for about a month or two, but then you would
18 just see all of a sudden that there were no Muslim patients and no Muslim
19 doctors in the hospital.
20 Q. How many Muslim patients were left with you?
21 A. Three.
22 Q. And you said you remained at the hospital for six months?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. During those six months were any attempts made for you to leave
25 the hospital?
1 A. Yes. The first time we were taken practically to Trnovo in the
2 ambulance vehicle that was used for kidney treatment. The three of us
3 were taken for an exchange.
4 Q. Do you know why you weren't released at that point?
5 A. The doctor said that if I were to be exchanged, that I should be
6 taken to Sarajevo, and if we were not to be exchanged, that we should come
7 back to the Foca hospital.
8 Q. You said you were taken almost to Trnovo. Did you actually reach
10 A. We came to Trnovo on the 27th of July, 1993.
11 Q. What caused you to turn around and go back to the Foca hospital?
12 A. We arrived in Trnovo. We got out. Another kombi van came. We
13 got into that kombi van and then we went back to Foca. We passed a
14 hundred metres and then we got into the water, into a stream.
15 Q. Did you return to the Foca hospital on that occasion?
16 A. No. We waited for orders until nightfall.
17 Q. And what happened at nightfall?
18 A. Then we got orders. They blindfolded us.
19 Q. And where did they take you?
20 A. Then they drove us for about half an hour. There was some kind of
21 a kombi van. We went out. There was some kind of headquarters, and they
22 put us into a garage.
23 Q. When you say "they," who are you referring to? Were they soldiers
24 or civilians?
25 A. Soldiers. Soldiers came out and they put us up at a garage.
1 Q. How long did you stay in that garage?
2 A. We spent the night in the garage. In the morning we got breakfast
3 and their doctor examined us.
4 Q. And what happened then?
5 A. Then they said to us, "It's all in vain. There is shooting around
6 Sarajevo." The people who were to be exchanged didn't come, so then we
7 were returned to the Foca hospital.
8 Q. Now, Witness, you gave the date of this as the 27th July 1993. Is
9 that the right date?
10 A. The 27th of July, 1993, the exact date. It was hot. I remember
12 Q. You were in the hospital -- are you talking about when you were
13 taken from the hospital?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You were in the hospital in 1992; isn't that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So did this happen in 1992 or 1993?
18 A. Oh, 1992 - I'm so sorry - I was taken from hospital.
19 Q. Was there another time when you were taken out of the hospital but
20 returned and not released?
21 A. Yes, when we were returned from Trnovo. About a month later, a
22 nurse came and told us that we should get ready because the last buses
23 were about to leave for Skopje.
24 Q. And were you taken to Skopje?
25 A. No. Again, the telephone, and they told us that we can stay,
1 because the buses were full. So we remained in hospital.
2 Q. And was there another time when you were supposed to be released
3 from the hospital but were not?
4 A. We were supposed to go to Montenegro, to Prijepolje, in an
5 ambulance vehicle that's used for kidney treatment, but the papers had not
6 been prepared, so we remained in hospital again.
7 Q. Did your family know that you were in the hospital during this
9 A. They knew that I went to Foca, because my doctor, Milan Tupesa,
10 from the company where I worked in, sent me to hospital on the 1st of
11 April, 1992.
12 Q. Do you know why you were not just released, like the other
13 patients, to go to your family?
14 A. Allegedly there was shooting, and the lady doctor said that if an
15 ambulance would come from Gorazde, then I could be transferred. However,
16 nothing came out of that.
17 Q. During the six months that you remained at Foca hospital, did you
18 hear shooting in Foca?
19 A. I did hear shooting. Foca was practically on fire. The villages
20 around Foca were on fire. There was fear, there was panic, uncertainty.
21 Q. Was there a time when Serb patients, a large group of Serb
22 soldiers, was brought to the hospital for treatment?
23 A. Six months later I saw a military man drying his uniform on the
25 Q. What did that indicate to you, that he was a patient there or
2 A. Nothing. He didn't ask us a thing. Of course, we thought that
3 patients were brought into hospital and that they were lying in bed like
4 the rest of us.
5 Q. In September of 1992, was there a group of about 35 Serb soldiers
6 brought to the hospital who had been injured?
7 A. When I could walk around and take a glass of juice, I saw there
8 were about 20 wounded persons. I don't know whether it was from mines or
9 because of the shooting. I don't know. I just saw wounded soldiers that
10 were being brought into hospital. I would hear sirens and there would be
11 killed and wounded persons, but I couldn't see what was happening on the
13 Q. You said this was at a point when you could walk around.
14 Approximately what month was that?
15 A. That was already the fourth month after I had recuperated,
16 actually, when I had been receiving drips and oxygen, and I could then
17 start moving about.
18 Q. So was it approximately September 1992?
19 A. I was in hospital, in bed, from the 1st of April until September,
20 for six months.
21 Q. What date were you finally -- were you taken away from the
23 A. On the 2nd of October, 1992, after the lady doctor came to see me,
24 and a Serb soldier came in. And there were three of us.
25 Q. Who was that Serb soldier? Did you recognise him or learn his
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
2 A. He spoke loudly. He had a beard. He followed the lady doctor
3 after she had come to examine us.
4 Q. Did you learn his name?
5 A. He said to the doctor, "Fuck you. Why you feeding balijas? If
6 you were a man, I'd kill you right now." And he grabbed his pistol.
7 Q. What did the soldier do with the pistol?
8 A. He pointed it at the lady doctor and she said, "Pero, may your
9 children be alive. I'm a doctor. And by the lives of your children,
10 these are patients, Muslims, who are very sick, and I'm a doctor and I'm
11 supposed to treat people."
12 Q. How did the soldier respond?
13 A. Then he used chairs and beat the three of us with -- and kicked us
14 too, and two of my ribs were broken and four teeth kicked out. However,
15 the doctor ran out of the room and phoned the police.
16 Q. Did the police arrive?
17 A. Police arrived. The nurse wiped the blood off us and offered --
18 and told us to get ready, as soon as possible, and to come with them.
19 Q. Where were you taken?
20 A. We got ready and started going downstairs. The two of them were
21 in front of me and I was behind them. I walked very slowly. I was in
22 pain. A Serb policeman hit me with a baton on the back. Had it not been
23 for the railing, I would have fallen.
24 Q. You said the policeman. Was this civilian police or military
1 A. An ordinary policeman. Later, he kicked me all the time too, on
2 our way out, all the way to the car. When we got out, I don't know what
3 he hit me with but I know that I fell and that my nose started to bleed.
4 The medical staff were outside sitting on the bench, smoking, and they
5 screamed, "Oh, what's happening to (redacted)?"
6 Q. When you gave a statement to the Bosnian authorities in November,
7 1994, you didn't mention that the police hit or kicked you when they took
8 you out of the hospital. Can you explain why you didn't do that?
9 A. I didn't dare. I was afraid, panic-striken. There was no one to
10 tell. There was a war on. There was panic. And then these two guys got
11 into the car. They sat in the car, whereas the police opened the trunk
12 and threw me into the trunk. Had there been a longer way, a longer ride,
13 from the hospital to where they were taking me, I would have suffocated in
14 there. There was dust, some kind of chains.
15 Q. After you were released in Sarajevo, two years later, you -- did
16 you tell the authorities then about being hit by the policeman? You
17 described being hit by the soldier but did you describe that the policeman
18 had mistreated you on the way out?
19 A. No, only Pero. Not two years; two and a half years. After two
20 and a half years, I was exchanged in Sarajevo.
21 Q. Can you explain why you did not tell -- did not say at that time,
22 two and a half years later, that the policeman had hit you in addition to
24 A. I didn't know the name, and I couldn't talk when I found out the
25 name, I mean about Pero, but I don't know about this other one. I don't
1 know the name of this man who was hitting me.
2 Q. Did you ever learn Pero's last name?
3 A. When I got out of the prison, my doctor sent me to Fojnica. I
4 went out to buy a newspaper, Dnevni Avaz, and I found a picture of this
5 Pero. I heard that he got killed. His people said in the newspapers that
6 he was a hero. Maybe you have that picture in that newspaper.
7 Q. Do you remember his last name?
8 A. Elez.
9 Q. Where did the policemen take you that day?
10 A. On that day, we were taken to the KP Dom prison from the hospital.
11 Q. Were all three of you taken, the Muslim patients who remained?
12 A. All three of us, after six months, we were taken to the Foca
13 prison, the KP Dom.
14 Q. Was your family ever notified that you had been taken from the
15 hospital to the KP Dom?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know where your family was during this time?
18 A. Caporancic [phoen], the municipality of Cajnice.
19 Q. Did you have any contact with your family while were you in the
20 hospital during those six months?
21 A. No.
22 Q. During the time that you were at KP Dom, were you allowed contact
23 with your family?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you learn later, after you were released, what your family
1 thought had happened to you during this time?
2 A. They thought, basically, that they'd never see me again.
3 Q. Did they think that you had died?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What happened when you arrived at KP Dom? Where were you taken?
6 A. They brought us to the gate, they handed us over to the guard.
7 The guard asked where we had been. He searched me. We had pajamas and
8 shaving kits. He took away my penknife, my pen, and registered all of
9 this, but as he was asking us -- asking us, and in front of me, there was
10 this man who was screaming because this other man was beating him, and he
11 was yelling, "Merhaba. Merhaba." I was really afraid.
12 Q. Where was this man being hit? In what part of the KP Dom?
13 A. At the entrance, at the gate, on the left-hand side, there were
15 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, when he said that this man was screaming,
16 "Merhaba," is that some identification matter that we have to concern
17 ourselves with?
18 MS. KUO: I was going to ask him what it meant.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. We have just got to get it done fairly quickly
20 so it doesn't go out in half an hour.
21 MS. KUO: Oh, no. It's not an identification matter.
22 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Thank you.
23 MS. KUO:
24 Q. Can you explain what the word you heard meant?
25 A. That is a greeting, a Muslim greeting, that we use, "Merhaba" and
1 "Selam Aleikum".
2 MS. KUO: Very well. It's 1.00, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. We will resume at 2.30.
4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.
3 MS. KUO:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. I'd like to return very briefly to the time when you were at the
7 Foca hospital. I asked you earlier whether there were Serb soldiers who
8 were brought to be treated at the hospital. I'd like to ask you now
9 whether there were Serb soldiers who died at the hospital, whether you
10 saw coffins or bodies of soldiers.
11 A. No, not in the hospital, but in front of the hospital there were
12 wounded and dead and coffins.
13 Q. Was there one particular incident in September 1992 when a group
14 of about 35 Serb soldiers were brought in dead or injured?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Were you later told by other detainees at KP Dom that there was a
17 group of people taken out to pick plums in September of 1992 that was in
18 retaliation for the death of a large number of Serb soldiers?
19 A. Yes, I heard about that, that they were killed. Whether it was
20 mines, I did not see, but our detainees were taken from the camp to pick
21 plums, and these people have not returned yet.
22 Q. Were you told what the relationship was between the soldiers who
23 were killed by mines and the group of detainees taken out allegedly to
24 pick plums?
25 A. I did not hear that. I was ill. I could not go out. I don't
1 know, and so I won't really talk about it.
2 MS. KUO: Thank you.
3 With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the witness
4 shown what has been placed in the trial binders as ID281. And for the
5 Court's reference, and Defence counsel as well, ID281 consists of three
6 separate documents. They are medical discharge forms, and the first one
7 is dated beginning 1st of April, 1992. We'll just start with that one and
8 I'll ask the witness to identify it.
9 Q. Is that the medical discharge certificate from the Foca hospital?
10 A. This is the discharge document certificate from the hospital of
12 Q. And you'll notice that the date that it says you were -- you began
13 your treatment at the hospital was 1st April 1992. Is that accurate?
14 A. It is.
15 Q. And then the date where it says you were treated until, there is a
16 typewritten date and then it's crossed out and something is written over
17 it by hand. Could you tell us what that typewritten date was?
18 A. I can. This was typed in, and when we returned from Trnovo, the
19 lady doctor, when she discharged me the second time, she changed this by
20 hand, in a ballpoint.
21 Q. What was the typewritten date? If it's not clear on the copy,
22 could you please let us know?
23 A. No, it's not clear. I can't see it on the copy.
24 Q. Do you have the originals of these discharge forms?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. Did you bring them with you to Court today?
2 A. No. I left them in my room.
3 MS. KUO: With the Court's indulgence, I think we may have a
4 better copy in our folders.
5 A. I think you do.
6 MS. KUO: I'd ask, with the assistance of the usher, that the
7 witness be shown this copy. I think it's a little bit clearer.
8 A. Yes. This is clearer. 1st of April, 1992, 24th of April, that is
9 when I was discharged from the hospital. And when I was brought back from
10 Trnovo, I was admitted again. When I again went to the prison, the doctor
11 changed the date that -- this was not the date when I left, and she used a
12 pen to write two 7s.
13 Q. So the date, 24th of April, was that the date that you were taken
14 to Trnovo?
15 A. No. I was taken to Trnovo on the 27th of July.
16 Q. Were you taken somewhere else, then, on the 24th of April, for
17 exchange, and then brought back?
18 A. We were -- they had prepared us to go to Skopje, but we did not
20 Q. Then the date that was handwritten in, the 7th of July, 1992, were
21 you taken away on that date?
22 A. No. On the 27th. That is when we were taken to Trnovo, on the
23 27th of July.
24 Q. So the 7 that is written in is meant to make what originally was
25 typewritten as 24 into a 27 July; is that right?
1 A. Yes, yes. The 27th of July, which the doctor changed by hand.
2 Q. Thank you. With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to show you
3 the second document in ID281. This one. This document shows that the
4 treatment began on the 9th of July, 1992 and lasted until the 15th of
5 July. Can you tell us about those dates? Were you admitted back to the
6 hospital on the 9th of July?
7 A. I was readmitted, yes. We were two, three times brought back to
8 the hospital. We went for exchange, were brought back again, and the
9 doctor wrote the discharge certificate again.
10 Q. And finally the third part of ID281. This one shows your
11 treatment beginning on the 9th of July and lasting until the 2nd of
12 October, 1992. Is that right? And you'll see that the 2nd of October is
13 also handwritten in over something else that was typewritten originally.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are you able to tell what was typewritten underneath the 2nd of
17 A. I can't see that but the doctor did it by her own hand.
18 Q. Were you supposed to have been released before October? And that
19 was the date that was written -- that was typewritten underneath?
20 A. Must have been like that because the situation was such, the times
21 were such, and the doctor, she prepared the discharge document because I
22 could not get out. It must mean that she changed those dates by hand,
23 using a ball-point.
24 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes that ID281, which
25 consists of three documents plus the English translations, be entered in
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P281 and 281A. And
5 it would have to go under seal, would it not?
6 MS. KUO: That's correct, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HUNT: And they will be under seal.
8 MS. KUO:
9 Q. Witness, when you were taken to KP Dom, you described before the
10 lunch break that you heard someone screaming and you started to describe
11 where that was. You said to the left of the entrance. You described that
12 there were stairs. Could you tell whether the sound was coming from
13 upstairs, downstairs, or the same floor as the entrance?
14 A. To the left from the ground floor, I heard screams and cries.
15 Q. Could you tell who was screaming or could you see?
16 A. I did not see.
17 Q. Did anybody tell you what was happening?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How did that make you feel when you came in and heard that?
20 A. Bad, illness, exhausted, and as a sick man sent to the KP Dom, to
22 Q. What room were you taken to in the KP Dom?
23 A. Number 15.
24 Q. Were the other two Muslim patients brought from the Foca hospital
25 with you taken to that same room?
1 A. To the same room. All three of us were together in Room 15. The
2 guard turned us over there.
3 Q. Could you tell us who those other patients were and what medical
4 conditions they were suffering from?
5 A. Abid Cocalic from Visegrad had a pacemaker built in, and Nezir
6 Cengic from Miljevina, the village of Rataj. They were together with me,
7 beaten, and together with me moved to the KP Dom, to the same room.
8 Q. Do you know what medical condition Nezir Cengic had?
9 A. The man came all black and blue, beaten. His face was black,
10 beaten, brought from Miljevina.
11 Q. Do you know for what reason Mr. Cengic was being treated in the
13 A. Beatings.
14 Q. When you were brought to the KP Dom, could you tell us what your
15 medical condition was? Were you able to walk?
16 A. Very difficult. When I left the hospital, they gave me medicines,
17 but I felt such pains in my rib cage that I could not barely walk from the
18 reception room to my Room 15 in the KP Dom.
19 Q. For the first few months in KP Dom, were you able to go to the
20 canteen and eat with the other detainees?
21 A. Not -- four months. They asked me. I was wrapped in a sheet in a
22 corner, because I could not walk on my own two feet.
23 Q. How did you get food?
24 A. At times my detainees would bring my lunch and at times guards
25 would do it.
1 Q. Did you lose weight during the time you were at KP Dom?
2 A. I was 72 kilograms when I arrived and I was 57 when I left. I
3 became shorter, smaller, and thinner.
4 Q. Did you receive any medical treatment while you were at KP Dom?
5 A. We had medicines. I reported and I was given the medicines or the
6 ambulance when I could not breathe. And they said to tell the guard when
7 I needed it so that they can bring me a physician who would give me an
9 Q. Did the guards bring you a physician to give you an injection?
10 A. Yes. Later on Dr. Aziz Torlak and Ibro Karovic came to my room,
11 and it was -- it became easier for me; that is, when I needed it, I had
12 the injections and they gave it to me.
13 Q. You mentioned the two doctors, Dr. Torlak and Dr. Karovic came to
14 your room. Did they come as detainees or as --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did they come as detainees or as working doctors?
17 A. The same like detainees. They were also detained and they worked
18 later on as doctors, helping both peoples, treating both Serbs and
20 Q. Were they detained in Room 15 with you?
21 A. No. They arrived before me. I don't know which room. And then
22 later on there were some exchanges and then they were brought to my room.
23 Q. When they were brought to your room - that's what I want to
24 clarify - were they brought to your room to be detained there or brought
25 specifically to give you treatment?
1 A. Detained.
2 Q. Did anybody try -- did either of those doctors try to secure your
3 release from the KP Dom for medical reasons?
4 A. I asked for a favour as a sick man, and they wrote some messages
5 to the prison warden and the deputy warden, twice, written documents, but
6 nothing came of it.
7 Q. Do you know what they wrote in the documents?
8 A. They wrote my full name, sick man from the hospital; if there is a
9 possibility, could he be exchanged before the envisaged time so that he
10 could go to Gorazde as quickly as possible. But nothing came out of it.
11 Q. You said that these notes were addressed to the warden and the
12 deputy warden. Do you know what the names were? Were they addressed --
13 A. I do not. I was ill. They did it all.
14 Q. You said that they were addressed to the warden and deputy
15 warden. Were they addressed using those titles or were they addressed to
16 specific named individuals?
17 A. They named it. They gave it to guards, and guards took it away.
18 But nothing came out of those applications, unfortunately.
19 Q. Did you know Milorad Krnojelac?
20 A. No. I did not leave the room. I did not work. I did not know.
21 I'm telling the truth.
22 Q. Did anybody tell you anything about him, whether he worked at KP
23 Dom, whether he had a function?
24 A. No. I heard from those detainees that there was a warden there,
25 that there was a deputy there. The name I didn't learn because I was ill,
1 and I have no way of knowing it.
2 Q. Did you hear the name Savo Todovic?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you -- let me ask you this. When you gave a statement to the
5 Office of the Prosecution in September 1998, you stated:
6 "I think that Savo Todovic was the head of KP Dom. I never met
7 him personally. I know that he had a deputy, but I forgot the name."
8 Do you remember making that statement?
9 A. I do, but that was a long time ago, and one can forget.
10 Q. Why or on what basis did you believe at that time that Savo
11 Todovic was the head of KP Dom?
12 A. Because of my applications to do something with that and to see if
13 I could be exchanged as quickly as possible, but nothing came out of it.
14 Q. Were the requests for your exchange addressed to Savo Todovic?
15 A. I think so. I think that both my applications were submitted, but
16 nothing came out of them.
17 Q. The question is specifically about Savo Todovic. Do you know
18 whether the applications were addressed to him by name?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Then on what basis did you believe, in 1998, that Savo Todovic was
21 the head of KP Dom? Did someone tell you that? Did you actually see
23 A. I suppose so. I did not see him but I heard that name mentioned.
24 Q. Did you ever have direct dealings with Savo Todovic, or indeed
25 with the warden?
1 A. No.
2 Q. With whom in the prison management or authority did you have
3 dealings? Was it just the guards?
4 A. Only the guards.
5 Q. Witness, you mentioned a doctor Aziz Torlak. Do you know what
6 happened to him?
7 A. He was in my room. He was taken away from my room in February or
8 March at 11.00, and he is filed as missing to this day. He treated me
9 because, when I received the fifth penicillin, I fell into a coma and he
10 took my medical card and put -- and stamped it with his monogram. And I
11 think it is on the basis of this monogram that he was registered as
13 Q. You said he was taken away. Who took him away?
14 A. Policemen opened the door and said, "Dr. Torlak, get ready, you're
15 to be exchanged." The doctor left and all trace of him has been lost
17 Q. And you gave the date as February, March. Would that be is 1993?
18 A. 1993, because it says in my health card, "Chief Doctor, Torlak,
19 Aziz Torlak, 20th of March, 1993." You can check it because you've got
20 the document.
21 Q. Witness, we don't need much details on this particular point, but
22 were you hidden? Were you part of the group that was hidden from the Red
23 Cross when they came to visit the KP Dom?
24 A. Yes. Thank you. I was in that room. The Red Cross came. They
25 took us to the bakery, yes, "Take him and hide him." And we were there
1 concealed from the Red Cross, and the Red Cross could not register us.
2 Q. Witness, among the people who were detained in the same room with
3 you, were there several members of the Cengic family?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know what happened to them? Were they taken out for
7 A. They were. What connection it was or what was it, we only noticed
8 in the room, "Get ready, you two, to be exchanged." And Cengic and his
9 nephew left my room.
10 Q. Were they taken out as a part of a larger exchange or were they
11 exchanged in a separate exchange, do you know?
12 A. Separate exchange, smaller exchange. It went through a
14 Q. Do you know what the connection was or who arranged for them to be
16 A. On the basis of what we heard from -- Nezir Cengic's son was in
17 the government in Sarajevo before the war and this son went to school
18 together with Milosevic, so then this connection came into play and then
19 they were exchanged from the KP Dom immediately.
20 Q. Did any of the Cengics ever tell you that any prison staff or
21 military commanders played a role in their exchange?
22 A. No.
23 Q. When were you taken out of KP Dom for exchange?
24 A. In the month of July, from the KP Dom, we were transferred to Rudo
25 for an exchange, 22 of us.
1 Q. Was that July, 1993?
2 A. I think it was July, 1993.
3 Q. What were you told was the reason you were being taken to Rudo?
4 A. What was that?
5 Q. What reason were you given for being taken to Rudo?
6 A. The reason was that we were going to Rudo from the KP Dom to be
7 exchanged. We did not realise what the situation was, that there were
8 Serbs from Rudo captured in Gorazde. And then by bus we were transferred
9 from Foca to Rudo.
10 Q. How long did you stay in Rudo?
11 A. Six months in Rudo in the prison there.
12 Q. Could you compare whether -- could you compare the conditions in
13 the Rudo camp and the KP Dom?
14 A. Well, the conditions were a bit poorer. The ground floor, no
15 water, one lavatory. Five of us would have to line up and go to the
16 lavatory. Bad conditions. Ground floor.
17 Q. And what you just described, was that at Rudo?
18 A. Rudo, yes. The cultural centre, ground floor.
19 Q. When you were at the KP Dom, were you ever beaten at the KP Dom?
20 A. No. I was only beaten at the hospital in Foca. I am telling you
21 the truth. I was not beaten anywhere else. Three prisons, two hospitals,
22 in two and a half years. There was only fear, illness. I suffered.
23 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, did the detainees there tell you
24 about beatings that had occurred before you arrived?
25 A. Well, they did say that at first there were beatings and that
1 there were people taken away. And when we came, we were told that we
2 would not be taken out and not beaten. However, there was this wild
3 exchange in my case. People were being taken out but they were not
5 Q. You said you were told that you would not be beaten or exchanged.
6 Who told you that?
7 A. The guard said so. Those requests of mine, the letters I wrote,
8 he said, "(redacted), nothing doing, nothing will come out of that." And
9 that's the way it was.
10 Q. Did anybody assure you that you would not be beaten? Did anybody
11 in authority say you would not be beaten?
12 A. No. I wasn't sure. I was afraid. I was panic-stricken. How
13 could I know what was happening on the ground?
14 Q. While you were at the Rudo camp, did you receive medical treatment
16 A. Yes. I was in prison for three months. My situation -- my
17 condition deteriorated. Everybody smoked. I don't smoke. This asthma.
18 And I was being suffocated and then I was taken to the hospital in Rudo.
19 Dr. Vera Rajak took me in and she treated me. They were humane. They
20 were good to me. I had medicine.
21 Q. Were you finally registered with the Red Cross when you were at
23 A. When we came to Rudo, on the next day the Red Cross came and then
24 I registered with them there. Then they allowed me to write a message to
25 my family saying that I was alive and where I was.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 Q. Was that the first time you were able to contact your family?
2 A. The first time after 22 months.
3 Q. From Rudo, where were you taken?
4 A. After six months of prison in Rudo, we were taken during the night
5 to Sarajevo Kula, the prison there.
6 Q. When was that?
7 A. After six months of Rudo, of the prison in Rudo. I do not recall
8 the date.
9 Q. When were you finally released from prison, that is from Kula?
10 A. I was in Kula in prison for three months. There was a
11 deterioration, in Kasindol I was also taken into hospital, two and a half
12 years later I was exchanged in Sarajevo.
13 Q. Did you receive medical treatment when you were released in
15 A. Yes. They asked me when they exchanged me, where I would go and
16 whether I had family in Sarajevo. I said, "No. I want to go to hospital,
17 to recuperate. I want to have my rib cage x-rayed to see whether
18 something would have to be done again and whether I would have to receive
19 further treatment." And that's the way it was. I was sent to the
20 hospital Podhrastova.
21 Q. Why did you ask to have your rib cage x-rayed? What did you
22 expect was the problem?
23 A. There was a problem. It hurt me. My ribs hurt me. However, they
24 told me that only two ribs were broken. However, when they x-rayed me, I
25 was in hospital for 15 days. And in the letter that was given to me when
1 I was released, it said that there were four ribs that were broken and the
2 fifth one was fractured a bit. You have this letter of release from
3 hospital in Sarajevo, and please take a good look at it.
4 Q. We'll get to that in a moment. The rib cage -- the rib injuries
5 that you described, were those as a result of being beaten by Pero Elez in
6 October 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Had you gotten an x-ray of those ribs at any point before you were
9 released in Sarajevo in October of 1994?
10 A. Yes. When I was in Kasindol, in the hospital, I was transferred
11 to Kula because I was ill. And a doctor saw me and he said, "(redacted),
12 tell me, quite freely: If they had beaten you, what is it that hurts you?"
13 And I told him that they had beat me in the ribs. And he x-rayed me and
14 then he sent me to hospital and I spent three months there on the second
16 Q. Let me ask you the question this way: While you were detained at
17 KP Dom, did anybody take an x-ray of your ribs?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you receive any treatment at KP Dom for the rib injuries that
20 you got on the 2nd of October, 1992, while you were at KP Dom?
21 A. No. No. I only got injections and medicines when I would be all
22 choked up.
23 Q. From your asthma?
24 A. Asthma, yes. Asthma, yes.
25 MS. KUO: Now, with the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have
1 the Witness shown ID282, and this is the medical record that you've
2 referred to.
3 Q. Is this the medical record of the treatment you received in
4 Sarajevo upon your release in 1994?
5 A. Yes, this is my letter of release.
6 Q. And this is also the document, is it not, that you referred to as
7 showing the x-rays of your broken ribs?
8 A. Yes. Please go ahead and take a look at this discharge
9 certificate from Sarajevo, and you can see all these things in it.
10 MS. KUO: Thank you. The Prosecution wishes to enter this exhibit
11 into evidence as P282 and 282A, the English translation.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P282, the other
15 document will be P282A, and they will be under seal.
16 MS. KUO: Thank you. Those are all our questions, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination. Mr. Bakrac.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Very briefly, I
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:
21 Q. I should like to continue along the lines of one of the last
22 questions that my learned colleague had put. However, first I would like
23 to wish the witness a good afternoon and I would like to introduce
24 myself. My name is Mihajlo Bakrac and I am an attorney at law, one of the
25 Defence counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. Sir, I will have to ask you one more thing. Please do not answer
3 my questions immediately, as soon as I put them, because we speak the same
4 language. It is necessary for the interpreters to interpret this question
5 first in order for everyone else in the courtroom to know the question
6 that is being put and what it was like.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I'm sorry to say so, but you came in so
8 far into that answer as it was still being translated that the
9 interpreters, I think, had to gallop very hard to keep up with you. So
10 you pause too, please.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will, Your Honour.
12 Q. Sir, you said that in the KP Dom you did not get anything for your
13 injuries except for injections and medicine. Did you complain to anyone
14 specifically regarding your rib injuries?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who did you complain to?
17 A. To Dr. Aziz Torlak. And it is only a wet sheet that could save me
18 and that would be bandaged around my ribs. I didn't have anything else to
19 help me.
20 Q. Did you go to the prison clinic?
21 A. No. I could not stand on my own two feet for four months. They
22 had to feed me.
23 Q. After four months and after you managed to get on your own two
24 feet, did you go to the prison clinic?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Who did you go to see at the prison clinic?
2 A. There was this little male nurse. I forgot his name. He took us
4 Q. Did you complain to him about your injuries?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What did he tell you in response to that?
7 A. He said that they would rather exchange a horse than me. What a
9 Q. Did you say how you sustained your injuries?
10 A. I did not dare speak about that, regrettably.
11 Q. Who gave you injections and medicines?
12 A. The male nurse. He brought them and our doctors administered them
13 to me when necessary.
14 Q. This nurse that you're speaking about, that you spoke of just now,
15 that's the nurse of the KP Dom?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. In response to my learned colleague's question
18 concerning your statement, when you said that Savo Todovic was warden of
19 the KP Dom, you explained this, and my colleague also asked you whether
20 Drs. Torlak or Karovic sent some requests to him. However, it is not
21 quite clear after that, so I have to ask you now whether it is correct
22 that in the statement that you gave to the OTP in 1998 you said the
24 "I know that on my behalf, Dr. Aziz Torlak and Dr. Ibrahim Karovic
25 wrote a request to Savo Todovic. They asked that I should be exchanged
1 because I was very ill."
2 Is that correct?
3 A. Correct. But nothing came out of this exchange.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me whether you also said that you were
5 spared of any kind of work.
6 A. Yes. As a patient, a sick person who had been beaten up, I was
7 given a certificate that I was not forced to do any physical labour.
8 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you also said that you knew the
9 names of two guards. One was Burilo and the other was Matovic, who was a
10 youngish man, medium height, with dark hair. He wore a military
11 camouflage uniform and he was armed. Is that correct?
12 A. I don't remember, given all that fear. I think they also had a
13 pistol along with this guard's uniform.
14 Q. So what you stated to the Prosecutor's office that this guard was
15 in military camouflage uniform, that's not correct?
16 A. I said "guard's uniform."
17 Q. Now, you spoke about the medical treatment you received. Do you
18 know the name of Milivoje Milic, a guard?
19 A. Yes. He is the only guard who let me open the window. He said,
20 "(redacted), when I'm on duty, you can stand by the open window. When I'm
21 on duty, I'll bring the nurse to administer injections to you," whereas
22 the others would say, "Jump off the third floor, you balija."
23 Q. So he even brought a doctor to see you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Today during the examination-in-chief, you explained
1 that you were beaten when you were leaving the hospital, going to the KP
2 Dom. You said that this was done by the police. Was this the military
3 police or some other police?
4 A. In hospital I was beaten by Pero Elez.
5 Q. Does that mean that nobody beat you except for Pero Elez?
6 A. Yes. The Serb police did. I don't know their names. When I was
7 leaving the hospital, as I was walking downstairs, he hit me with a
8 baton. And I held onto the railing. Had it not been for the railing, I
9 would have fallen down. Three days later it was all black and blue, the
10 place where he beat me with the baton, and he was kicking me in the ass
11 all the time as I was going down. And I also fell and there was blood all
12 over me. And he took a pistol and pointed it at me and he counted up to
13 10, and by the time he counted to 8, I came to and I managed to get up.
14 And the other -- and when we got to the car, he put those other two in the
15 car and he put me into the trunk, where there was dust and there were
16 chains. Gentlemen, had there been a longer ride to the KP Dom, I would
17 have suffocated all together.
18 Q. Why didn't you dare tell the police in Gorazde about this? Wasn't
19 this the Muslim police that you gave this statement to?
20 A. I said later that the first statement -- I mean, everything the
21 way it was, later in Sarajevo. I said, in connection with everything I
22 had to say -- please take a look at my papers. They're all there.
23 Q. Sir, my colleague from the Office of the Prosecutor who was
24 questioning you asked you why you did not talk about this incident in your
25 first statement given to the police in Gorazde, and you explained that you
1 were afraid to make such a statement. And now I am asking you whether, at
2 the security station in Gorazde, this was the Muslim police?
3 A. Yes, that was the Muslim police. And two and a half years later,
4 when I was exchanged in Sarajevo -- I mean, Rasevic took me to Gorazde, I
5 got some rest and then I made statements.
6 Q. You were not afraid to mention Pero Elez in this statement,
8 A. In Sarajevo, they asked me, "How do you know, (redacted), that Pero
9 beat you?" And I said I knew that Pero came after the lady doctor and
10 that he started beating me and she said, "Pero, in the name of your
11 children, I ask you to stop beating them." And then -- oh, I'm sorry I
12 even mentioned the last name.
13 Q. You said, "Later I heard about the last name Elez." How come?
14 A. When I was sent to Fojnica, I took the newspaper Dnevni Avaz, and
15 then it said as if he had been killed. And then his family put a notice
16 in Dvnevni Avaz, and I recognised him. I said this is the guy who beat
17 me, a big guy with a beard, and it said "Pero Elez". And there is his
18 father's name also. You can look at this document and you can see him.
19 Q. You said during the examination-in-chief that he was portrayed as
20 a hero.
21 A. You can read it. You can read it and you can see what he did
22 there and what he did in Foca.
23 Q. I'm just asking you because, in your examination-in-chief, you
24 said that he was portrayed as a hero.
25 A. Please, take a look at this document and read it.
1 Q. Tell me, just one thing. Dnevni Avaz, is that a Muslim newspaper
2 or is that a newspaper that is published in the territory Republika
4 A. This is a BH newspaper.
5 Q. I'm going to ask you once again, sir, about two policemen whom you
6 mentioned, that they came to take you from hospital to the KP Dom and that
7 they beat you. Were they military policemen?
8 A. Ordinary policemen in uniform. When the doctor phoned, they came,
9 and one of them kicked me and hit me with a baton.
10 Q. We heard about this, sir.
11 A. If I have to tell you about it, I'm going to tell you about it
12 right now. And you can go to Foca and you can go to the hospital and talk
13 to the doctor and she can tell you exactly the way this went. I want the
14 truth to be known and I came here to tell the truth.
15 Q. Sir, please. I am not bringing into question what you are
16 saying. I'm just interested in something else.
17 A. Please go ahead.
18 Q. I'm not challenging any of the things that you are saying. I'm
19 not saying you're not telling the truth. Just tell me whether they were
20 military policemen or not. I'm not bringing into question what happened
21 to you.
22 A. They were not military policemen.
23 Q. In the statement you gave in 1998 to the Office of the Prosecutor,
24 you said the following. I don't have to repeat all of this. You talked
25 about this incident with a certain Pero and you said, "When he beat us, he
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 did not have weapons." And then you say, "The doctor called the police.
2 Two military policemen came. Pero in the meantime left."
3 A. Pero went out.
4 Q. "Two military policemen came." And then at the next paragraph,
5 again you said, "The military policemen handed us over to the prison
6 staff." Is that correct?
7 A. The policemen handed us over, but that fear, I certainly could not
8 see whether they were military or whether they had ordinary uniforms.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. Thank you, too.
11 Q. You also said the prison staff that was present wore camouflage
12 uniforms. Is that also correct?
13 A. I did not say that.
14 Q. So you are claiming that what I read from your statement given to
15 the OTP, that the prison staff present there wore camouflage uniforms, you
16 say that that is not correct?
17 A. It's not.
18 Q. After Room 15, what room were you in, if you may remember?
19 A. Later, we were transferred to two rooms. I think it was number 30
20 and number 20. As people left for plum picking, others were brought in.
21 So during that year in the KP Dom in Foca, I was in three different rooms.
22 Q. First you said 15 and then you said 20 and 30. Room number 30
23 does not exist. Could you please focus a bit? Which room was it?
24 A. Well, you tend to forget. There was 25, 20, 18. Those were the
1 Q. Please tell us, from Room 15, were you transferred to the
2 right-hand wing of the prison complex?
3 A. The left-hand wing, if I remember correctly.
4 Q. And all the three rooms that you were in were in the left wing of
5 the prisoners' quarters?
6 A. Yes, left, up there with those birches.
7 Q. And the clinic and the prison hospital were in that wing?
8 A. Yes, but below.
9 Q. Are you familiar with the name of Safet Avdic?
10 A. He was in the same room, former director.
11 Q. Which room?
12 A. Fifteen.
13 Q. How long was he with you in Room 15?
14 A. About six months.
15 Q. So six months after your arrival on the 1st of October, 1992?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And after that?
18 A. He left to be exchanged.
19 Q. From Room 15?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Your Honours, I have
22 no further questions.
23 A. Thank you, too.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination, Ms. Kuo?
25 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. That is the end of your evidence.
2 Thank you for giving that evidence. You are now free to leave. I suggest
3 you wait a moment while the blinds are being lowered so you can leave
4 without being seen by the public.
5 A. Thank you, too. All the best to you.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Smith, we are up to 120, are we?
8 MR. SMITH: Yes, we are, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HUNT: What are the protective measures for this witness?
10 MR. SMITH: A pseudonym and facial.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration in the
14 document that is being shown to you, sir?
15 WITNESS: FWS-120
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.
20 Examined by Mr. Smith:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. In front of you is a sheet of paper. On
22 the top of that sheet of paper is a name and date of birth. Is that your
23 name and date of birth?
24 A. It is.
25 MR. SMITH: I tender that document, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Do you have copies for us?
2 MR. SMITH: We believe that we did have copies but the case
3 manager has just gone to make a few. We have copies now, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HUNT: I think that it's already admitted into evidence this
5 morning. It was when the witness came that had the name. It was on my
6 desk and I'm afraid I thought it was he, and I put it into evidence before
7 the witness came in and gave a different name and didn't realise it. So
8 it is already in evidence as Exhibit 427.
9 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, it is actually a different version
10 because it does have the date of birth of this witness.
11 JUDGE HUNT: All right, then. We will have another one. It will
12 be Exhibit 429 and it will be P429, and it will be under seal.
13 MR. SMITH:
14 Q. Witness, during and prior to April, 1992, were you a career JNA
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what was -- what is your ethnicity?
18 A. Muslim.
19 Q. (redacted)
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what was -- who was the fuel intended for? What was the
23 purpose of this fuel depot?
24 A. That -- there was no fuel in that depot. Preparations were under
25 way so that the fuel, which would subsequently fed into the cisterns and
1 used by the Muslim People's Army and the United Nations, their forces
2 which were in east Bosnia.
3 Q. And was this depot fenced?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what buildings and structures were in this compound area?
6 A. There was a prefabricated building housing the command for the
7 supply and feeding of fuel into cisterns, with an automatic system for the
8 loading, unloading, showing the exact state of fuel and the quantity
9 available in the depot. Then there were also storerooms which were dug in
10 and used for things such as oils, oil derivatives, oil derivatives which
11 were in cisterns, in barrels, in cannisters, and there was also an open
12 warehouse used to distribute fuel, that is to pour it into containers or
13 into smaller containers, from one to 20 litres.
14 Q. Thank you. I'd just like to clarify a matter. In your previous
15 answer you said that the fuel was intended to be fed into the cisterns
16 used by the Muslim People's Army. Did you say that or did you say the
18 A. JNA. Not the Muslim army; the Yugoslav People's Army.
19 JUDGE HUNT: The answer went on to say, "and the United Nations."
20 I don't know whether that was intended as well.
21 MR. SMITH:
22 Q. And you mentioned that the fuel was to be used for the United
23 Nations as well, as well as the JNA. Is that the case?
24 A. Yes, that is the case, because that depot belonged to the federal
25 agencies of the Federal Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia, which in
1 December turned it over to the Yugoslav People's Army.
2 Q. And where is the compound in relation to the main road between
3 Foca and Gorazde?
4 A. It is eight kilometres away from Foca, on the road to Gorazde, and
5 three kilometres from Ustikolina, towards Foca.
6 Q. And about how far was the command building within this compound
7 from the main gate?
8 A. The command was 10, maybe 12 metres away.
9 Q. And how big was the compound, approximately, the length and width?
10 A. It was about 800 metres long and the average width was 100 or, at
11 some places, 200 metres, depending, from the gate and then onward.
12 Q. And as of April 1992, how many soldiers did you have under your
14 A. I had 14 soldiers and 4 civilians, civilians working for the
15 Yugoslav People's Army. The soldiers were regular JNA soldiers doing
16 their regular military service.
17 Q. And were they of mixed ethnicity?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And when were you transferred to this fuel depot?
20 A. I was transferred after the first blockade of Sarajevo. It was on
21 the 6th of April. No. Excuse me. I was transferred in November 1991,
22 and that depot was the depot of the federal agencies. So they had begun
23 the process of turning it over, and on the 6th of April, after the
24 blockade of Sarajevo, the first one, I refused to go to work in
25 Ustikolina. But from my command, my command warned me that I had to go.
1 And no sooner did I talk to them on the phone than - with the men in
2 charge in my command - than the military police arrived to the house where
3 I lived. And after that, I went to the command, and for three days
4 attempts were being made for me to leave Sarajevo to get to Ustikolina. I
5 tried to reach Ustikolina, taking the direction of Trnovo, but it was
7 Q. Were you ordered to go back to the Pilipovici fuel depot?
8 A. I did not get an order. I was taken by force.
9 Q. And why did you intend not to go back to Pilipovici in April?
10 A. Because I had already sensed and heard in the media that the
11 situation had reached a critical point in that part of Bosnia.
12 Q. And in any event, you were escorted back to Pilipovici; is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you resumed your command position there?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At this time was there a JNA base in Ustikolina?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how far from Pilipovici is Ustikolina?
20 A. Three kilometres.
21 Q. And what was the function of this JNA base?
22 A. It was the third depot of ammunition and explosive devices. They
23 had their warehouses in two places, and the command in the centre itself
24 of Ustikolina, right next to the mosque. Its function, the function of
25 the depot, was the logistical supply of ammunition, mines, and explosive
1 devices, the supply for the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in compliance
2 with orders received from Sarajevo, from the 777th Rear Base of the 2nd
4 Q. Do you know how many troops were based at this warehouse complex
5 in Ustikolina, including the command centre and the two warehouses?
6 A. I don't know, because I was not directly subordinate to the
7 commander who was the commander in the 3rd depot. At no time did I insist
8 on getting a number of soldiers, because the formations in former barracks
9 were all a military secret.
10 Q. Even though you don't know the number of the troops, were the
11 troops of mixed ethnicity that were attached to this base?
12 A. Until January, there were regular troops of the Yugoslav People's
13 Army, and those were lads doing their military service. In January, in
14 addition to their number, a significant number of reservists of one ethnic
15 origin turned up.
16 Q. And what ethnic group was that?
17 A. Serb.
18 Q. And when you say "they turned up," what did they do when they got
19 there? Did they become part of the troops at that base?
20 A. According to what I could see and feel, some of them were -- that
21 is, those reservists who came to the barracks had been supplied with
22 clothing, footwear, weapons, and some of them stayed in the barracks and
23 others headed for other places on the basis of the assignments that were
24 not known to me; that is, I did not know their assignments and I don't
25 know where they went.
1 Q. And how did you know about the arrival of these extra men to the
2 JNA base in Ustikolina?
3 A. I know it because logistically I -- it was this depot which was to
4 support me logistically, and pursuant to the orders of the command in
5 Sarajevo, I was getting my food supplies, ammunition, weapons, and all
6 derivatives from that depot, so that I came practically every day, once or
7 twice even, depending on the situation there. And all the orders that
8 came from Sarajevo came to that depot, because they had a fax machine and
9 I didn't.
10 Q. Did you notice whether or not the Muslims that were attached to
11 that JNA base, whether they started to leave in January 1992?
12 A. They started to leave on the basis of somebody's orders. I do not
13 know whose. But by January the 15th, not a single Muslim reservist was to
14 be found in that base.
15 Q. And about how many Muslims left that base?
16 A. Whatever I tell you won't be the accurate figure, but quite a
17 number of them left. I wasn't really fully abreast of it all, but Muslims
18 did not turn up any more; that is, you call a man and you see that this
19 Muslim is not there, that those names are gone.
20 Q. And the command structure at the JNA base in Ustikolina in
21 January, do you know what ethnicity that was, if it was one particular
22 type, or was it mixed?
23 A. It was mixed. The commander was a Serb, and in depots there were
24 Serbs from Bosnia, Serbs from Serbia. But by and large, they were all
25 active military persons in the Yugoslav People's Army, and the structure
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 was determined by the command in Sarajevo.
2 Q. You said the command structure was mixed. Did Muslim commanders
3 stay in Ustikolina or did they leave, at this time in January?
4 A. Active-duty military did not leave, because they dared not,
5 because they would be brought before a court martial, as at that time the
6 Yugoslav People's Army was still in all the barracks in Bosnia-Herzegovina
7 and it had not yet been condemned by anyone as a monoethnic army.
8 Q. And the Muslims that were attached to this base that left in
9 January 1992, where did they go and why did they go?
10 A. According to stories which I heard from active-duty military down
11 there, they disagreed with the policy of the Yugoslav People's Army, and
12 they went to their native places and some of them organised groups and
13 groupings, and I do not have any detailed knowledge about those.
14 Q. In early April 1992, did any civilians approach you at the fuel
15 depot and ask you for some protection within the compound?
16 A. As early as the 8th of April, a large number of civilians began to
17 arrive from the direction of Foca, began to move from the direction of
18 Foca towards Ustikolina. And when arriving at the gate, people began
19 first to speak to soldiers, and then soldiers approached me directly to
20 see if we could accommodate the refugees in the depot because people still
21 trusted the Yugoslav People's Army, that there would be no killings and
22 that that army would provide them with logistic support, that is food in
23 the first place and perhaps a roof somewhere to sleep, so that they could
24 go on either to Gorazde or some other place, that is take some other road
25 which was still passable in Bosnia.
1 Q. And briefly, did they tell you why they left, why they left Foca?
2 A. They said because an attack had taken place on some villages
3 around Foca, and because these people had been expelled. And during the
4 war, it happened, if the news reaches you that somebody, some three
5 kilometres away, is coming to kill you and expel you, then everybody is on
6 the run so as to avoid finding themselves in the same predicament as those
7 that had been attacked already.
8 Q. I think you said that the first civilians that approached you was
9 about the 8th of April. Did the numbers increase throughout April?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And on the 26th of April, 1992, the compound was taken over by
12 other forces?
13 A. On the 26th of April, and that was Easter, the White Eagles
14 paramilitary formations took over the depot.
15 Q. And what was the maximum number of people that you had in the
16 compound prior to the 26th of April that were seeking protection?
17 A. Well, it depended on the night. Until the 26th, there were never
18 less than 300, and at times, it was as many as 500.
19 Q. And during the day, did a number of these people leave the
20 compound and then come back at night? Was that a pattern that was
22 A. Some went on towards Gorazde, and some, those who were nearest,
23 whose houses were nearest the barracks, they would go in the morning and
24 return at night-time because they thought it was safer for them to be in
25 the barracks at night than in their houses, in case of an attack.
1 Q. And did you know the ethnicity of these people that were seeking
3 A. The majority of them were Muslims, 99 per cent. However, one of
4 the first to seek protection was a man of Serb origin, and he was in the
5 depot together with all the other refugees throughout that period.
6 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, that's probably a good place to stop.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We will resume at 9.30 in the morning.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m., to
9 be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of February,
10 2001, at 9.30 a.m.