Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3185

1 Monday, 19 February 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, your first witness today is

10 FWS-73; is that right?

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With your leave, you gave us some

14 homework for the weekend, to verify something. So I don't know if this is

15 a good time or perhaps should I do it later, in relation to the transcript

16 and what you told us to find.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Now we've got the witness in court, I think it might

18 be better to deal with it later, after one of the breaks.

19 The witness's pseudonym document will be Exhibit P430, and it will

20 be under seal.

21 Now, sir, will you please stand up and make the solemn declaration

22 in the document which is being given to you. Are you able to hear the

23 proceedings through your earphones?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 3186

1 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

7 Q. Good morning, Witness.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak up, please, and come

9 closer to the microphone.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, the interpreters are having difficulty hearing

11 you. Could you move your chair closer to the microphones and speak up

12 slightly.

13 Would you try again, please, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

15 Q. Good morning, Witness.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. Witness, when you look at the sheet of paper in front of you, you

18 see a number on it. It's number 73. That is your pseudonym in these

19 proceedings. Below this pseudonym there is a name and a nickname. Is it

20 your name and your nickname?

21 A. It is.

22 Q. Below the name, there is a date. Is it your birth date?

23 A. It is.

24 Q. Below your birth date there is the name of a private enterprise.

25 Did you own this enterprise before the war?

Page 3187

1 A. I did.

2 Q. And on the sheet of paper, there are several other names of other

3 protected witnesses. So in your testimony, if you want to refer to these

4 people, please do not tell their name but use their code number. Do you

5 understand that?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Witness, where were you born?

8 A. In Foca.

9 Q. And what is your ethnicity?

10 A. I'm a Muslim.

11 Q. Are you married?

12 A. I am.

13 Q. And do you have children?

14 A. Two, two children.

15 Q. Where did you live before the war?

16 A. In Foca.

17 Q. And in which part of the town did you live?

18 A. The old town centre.

19 Q. Was it a Muslim neighbourhood or mixed?

20 A. It was mixed.

21 Q. Did you live near the Careva mosque?

22 A. Yes, I lived near the Careva mosque.

23 Q. Was this mosque destroyed during the war?

24 A. That mosque and all the mosques in Foca were destroyed.

25 Q. Did you see the destroyed mosque after it was destroyed?

Page 3188

1 A. When it was -- when the mosque was set on fire, I was at home and

2 then, when they made me do forced work and as we were returning from Brod,

3 I saw it -- or rather, even its foundations had become unrecognisable by

4 that time.

5 Q. Does that mean you saw that while you were detained, the remains?

6 A. While I was detained.

7 Q. Did you live in a house -- in a house or in an apartment

8 building?

9 A. I lived in my house.

10 Q. Was this house destroyed during the war?

11 A. That house, first the roof tiles were taken off, then windows and

12 everything that could be taken away was taken away. I watched it as I

13 walked to Brioni to work, three kilometres away, and I could see my house

14 and I could -- every day when I went to work, I could see them remove the

15 roof, the window frames and the rest.

16 Q. The private enterprise that you owned, did Serbs come to your

17 enterprise before the outbreak of the war?

18 A. Yes, Serbs did come to that enterprise on various occasions, and

19 they even provoked - teased - us before the war. They fired from the --

20 from a neighbouring restaurant, from a neighbouring coffee bar, (redacted)

21 (redacted). We reported them to the police before the war, but they could

22 do nothing.

23 Q. How much time before the war; just a few days before or even

24 longer?

25 A. On the eve of the war or perhaps a month before it broke out.

Page 3189

1 Q. Those who provoked you, who were they? What kind of people were

2 they?

3 A. Those who provoked me and the rest of the citizenry were people of

4 orthodox ethnicity who at that time, on the eve of the war, already were

5 out and they were under the instructions of Maksimovic, Ostojic, Cancar.

6 Q. Those persons that you just mentioned, were they SDS politicians?

7 A. They were politicians of the SDS, or should I say extremist

8 politicians of the SDS.

9 Q. And how do you know that these people were in charge of those who

10 provoked you?

11 A. I was born in the town of Foca so that I frequently patronised a

12 fish restaurant which is on the bank of the Drina, and the waiters there

13 were of different ethnic origins, and they told me -- and I would see them

14 with my own eyes when they met at Ribarski, so that all people of Muslim

15 ethnicity had to vacate that place, had to leave when they would meet.

16 Q. And when you say "they," do you mean these politicians you just

17 mentioned?

18 A. The politicians. These politicians that I have just mentioned.

19 Q. Were you a member of any political party before the war?

20 A. Not a single one, neither before nor during nor after or now.

21 Q. Were you involved in politics in any way?

22 A. In no way whatsoever.

23 Q. Why then did you become a target? Why was your enterprise

24 targeted with provocations and even shots?

25 A. Everybody who owned a business in Foca was the target of these

Page 3190

1 people who -- of the agents provocateurs, of these agents. They wanted to

2 destroy those private businesses with their provocations and to drive us

3 away, everybody who owned a private business.

4 Q. When you say "everybody," do you mean all owners of enterprises,

5 regardless of their ethnicity?

6 A. No, only Muslim businessmen. They were the target of attacks.

7 Q. When the war broke out in Foca, did you participate in the

8 fighting?

9 A. When the war broke out in Foca, I was in my enterprise and it was

10 just to open or, rather, we had just begun work. Then I saw crowds of

11 people coming out, and I thought it was a strike because there had been

12 such occurrences before. So I was at home in my enterprise, unaware of

13 the war or anything that was going on.

14 Q. And did you stay in your home during the fighting?

15 A. I spent nine days at home, in hell, in fear. Nine days later, to

16 my -- Seselj's men, Arkan's men came to my house, and there were all sorts

17 of Chetnik formations. Those were young men from Foca. I knew them all.

18 And they came to my house.

19 Q. And those young men from Foca, did they have weapons?

20 A. They were all with weapons, so that I cannot describe it to you

21 now. After all the gunfire, after all the shooting, I thought that was

22 the end of me, my wife, and the woman who worked for us.

23 Q. Did you ever see weapons distributed to young men in Foca or

24 anything related to this?

25 A. On the eve of the war, just before it broke out, cars brought

Page 3191

1 people, young men, with their car boots full of weapons, and in one

2 enterprise, I saw it, how they took them out publicly without -- in the

3 open. I saw that, but I never thought that something like that would

4 begin.

5 Q. Where did this happen? You mentioned another enterprise. What

6 was it?

7 A. Well, it happened -- it happened -- I cannot tell you about it

8 now - I believe the Court knows that - where I could see it all with my

9 own eyes from my enterprise.

10 Q. The Court does not know what you have said previously. You have

11 to tell the Court now and today. So do you know the name of this

12 enterprise where you saw weapons being unloaded?

13 A. I saw it (redacted).

14 (redacted), and I could see directly how weapons

15 were being taken out and other similar things.

16 Q. Your own enterprise, was it ever looted or destroyed?

17 A. You mean before the war?

18 Q. No, during the war, while you were in your home.

19 A. During the war, during the war, that same day, all that was in it

20 was looted even by those people who used to work there, and everything was

21 broken down, completely destroyed by those people, I mean, of the Orthodox

22 ethnicity. That same day, everything was broken, destroyed, and taken

23 away.

24 Q. You said that you were arrested after nine days. What day,

25 actually, was it?

Page 3192

1 A. When this group of Seselj's men, Arkan's men, as they sat at my

2 place, I had to offer them drinks which I had in my cellar, which was, as

3 a matter of fact, outside beyond that shop, and we sat there for about two

4 or three hours. I asked them if they could let me go, leave Foca, and

5 they said no.

6 Three hours later, they sent two armed men, and my wife and I were

7 thus taken under custody to the concentration camp in Foca. That was

8 around the 17th of April. So it began on the 8th. Nine days later, on

9 the ninth day of the war which they were waging, when they were killing

10 and torching, nine days later I was taken to the camp, my wife and I.

11 Q. And those who arrested you, you spoke about two men. What did

12 they wear? What clothing did they have?

13 A. They wore civilian clothes, I knew them by sight. And there is a

14 village called Livade near Foca. I did not know their names. One had a

15 long beard. They knew me. I did not know them except by sight a little.

16 And they used foul language, they said, "You want sovereign Bosnia, do

17 you?" And things like that. And we kept silent. We dared not speak out

18 because had we said anything, they would have killed us on the spot.

19 Q. And did they tell you why you were arrested, except for these

20 remarks related to the sovereign Bosnia? Did they tell you why?

21 A. Before the war, they all distanced themselves from us, and we who

22 were there, we naturally all socialised, Muslims and the orthodox, and

23 they all parted company with us and naturally started provocations as they

24 had been taught by Karadzic: "If need be, there will be no more

25 Muslims." And with a group like Maksimovic, Ostojic and others, went by

Page 3193












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3194

1 that.

2 Q. Witness, I had asked you if these two men who arrested you and

3 took you to the camp, did they tell you why, why they take you and your

4 wife and where?

5 A. They said -- they did not tell us where they were taking us but

6 they did say, "Muslims" -- and over there they call them balijas. So they

7 said, "Balijas, you will see who we are and what we are." And they took

8 us in an unknown direction. We did not know where they were taking us.

9 Q. And you said that you and your wife were taken to the camp. Do

10 you mean the KP Dom?

11 A. Before the war, it was called the KP Dom. It was the

12 penitentiary, reformatory, one of the largest in Yugoslavia perhaps, but

13 this KP Dom had been converted into a camp.

14 Q. And when did you arrive? At what time of the day did you arrive

15 at the KP Dom?

16 A. We arrived in the KP Dom where -- on a cloudy day. It looked to

17 me as if it was late afternoon, but it could have been around 2.00 or

18 3.00.

19 Q. And how long did you stay in the KP Dom after that?

20 A. For -- I was there two years and six months, that is from the

21 beginning to the end of the exchange.

22 Q. And how long did your wife stay in the KP Dom?

23 A. My wife was there one day, two or maybe three, not more than that,

24 because I was so completely lost that I did not know where I was, let

25 alone my wife. I was scared out of my wits. And there was another woman,

Page 3195

1 a female under 33, and I saw the two of them. They let go my wife, that

2 person stayed behind, and that was that.

3 Q. You refer to the witness 33 on your sheet, right?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. This short period that your wife was in the KP Dom, was she with

6 you in the same room?

7 A. Same room, same room, or rather we had the same anteroom or what

8 do you call it. There were four or five rooms, but in a set of rooms.

9 They were all one next to the other. There were two larger and two

10 smaller, and we were all there in the same place.

11 Q. When you arrived at the entrance of the KP Dom, who was present?

12 A. When we arrived, when they threw us out, those two Chetniks, the

13 warden - that is, we later found out he was the warden of the camp - he

14 was in front of the building, at the entrance, and whether there was one

15 policeman or two policemen, but there was somebody with him. On this side

16 there was this policeman, Cancar; we know that. We remember that. And we

17 said, "What's this?" And they said, "Go in and you'll find out what's

18 that." And they sort of shrugged their shoulders to show, I mean, that's

19 nothing.

20 Q. You mentioned a policeman Cancar. Was that a prison guard or was

21 it a policeman from SUP?

22 A. Prison.

23 Q. And you said the warden was there and --

24 A. Yes, the prison guard, a prison guard. And I think he was a

25 prison guard in the KP Dom even before the war.

Page 3196

1 Q. You said that the warden was there, but that you did not know that

2 he was the warden at that time. Who was there?

3 A. We did not know. We did not know that that was the warden.

4 Q. And can you tell us the name of the person you saw there that you

5 later found out was the warden?

6 A. Just a moment. I remember that moment when we entered. We were

7 frightened. I still again feel that fear, that I cannot really guess at

8 who was the warden, and I simply wonder at myself, because we were so

9 beaten up, so ill treated, that when I even think of it, I feel like

10 killing myself.

11 Q. Witness, as we go through this very slowly, so don't worry. Whom

12 did you see? If you tell us the name of the persons that you saw when you

13 arrived. You have already mentioned Mr. Cancar. Who else did you see

14 that you knew?

15 A. I -- Milorad Krnojelac, Milorad Krnojelac.

16 Q. Where was he when you arrived? Where did you see him?

17 A. He stood in front of the -- by the entrance with two more perhaps,

18 at the entrance into the camp.

19 Q. What was he doing there? Could you see? Was he simply standing

20 there or did he do anything?

21 A. He stood in front of the entrance because, since we knew him from

22 before, we said, "Hello. What is this? Why are they bringing us in?" not

23 knowing what he was. I mean, we knew him but did not know what his role

24 was. And all those who were at the entrance had their roles.

25 Q. When you said hello to them and said, "What's going on?" what did

Page 3197

1 he say, if anything?

2 A. He behaved very casually. Butter would not melt in his mouth.

3 But he said, "Nothing. Nothing. You will be interrogated, interviewed

4 for two or three days, and then you will be set free."

5 Q. And did you continue talking to him on that occasion?

6 A. They immediately pushed us through the gate, through the iron gate

7 of the camp. There was no conversation, just a very short conversation, a

8 fleeting conversation, and we were immediately driven into the camp.

9 Q. Do you recall what Mr. Krnojelac was wearing when you saw him at

10 the gate?

11 A. I remember he wore civilian clothes. And only this policeman was

12 in his old police uniform that they wore before, and Krnojelac was in

13 civilian clothes.

14 Q. Did you see any soldiers on your arrival at the KP Dom?

15 A. When we entered the KP Dom, there were soldiers, that is, not

16 professional soldiers but as we called them, riff-raff, brought from

17 neighbouring villages in Serbia and neighbouring places in Montenegro.

18 They wore reservist uniforms and they were right there at the beginning

19 when we were there.

20 Q. And why did you call them riff-raff?

21 A. Some of those who were there, I mean, of the guards, no matter

22 what instructions they received from the administration, they told us

23 every detail, and they said, "We've asked for reinforcements." They

24 thought that we would resist, that we would fight against them, and they

25 had brought reinforcements. And these told us, those selfsame guards -

Page 3198

1 not all of them but individuals - that they had brought people from

2 prisons, from Serbian prisons in Serbia, so that they could slaughter over

3 here, torch, and that -- so that everything they conquered would become

4 theirs. That was what the local ones had ordered.

5 Q. And these sort of soldiers, how long did they stay in the KP Dom?

6 A. Well, what I've been telling you, as far as dates is concerned, is

7 not very accurate. My memory is very poor, especially has been since I

8 left camp. But perhaps a month, something around a month. I really don't

9 know. They weren't there very long.

10 Q. When you say your memory is very poor, you mean in relation to

11 dates?

12 A. Dates, dates.

13 Q. You said that Mr. Krnojelac was at the entrance. Did you know him

14 from before the war?

15 A. I did know him before the war because Foca is not really a very

16 big town. So all of us who live there knew each other.

17 Q. Did you know where he lived?

18 A. I knew where he lived.

19 Q. Did you ever go to this house?

20 A. I personally did not visit him at home, but I came to his cafe,

21 rather, the cafe that was opened by his son. So I stopped by there, say

22 around two or three times, before the war, that is.

23 Q. And do you know which of Krnojelac -- who of Krnojelac's sons was

24 running the cafe? Do you know his name and who he was?

25 A. The names? No, I don't know his sons' names. They are young

Page 3199

1 people.

2 Q. Was Mr. Krnojelac involved in politics before the war?

3 A. Everybody from Foca, from street cleaners to professors, doctors,

4 judges, everybody was a member of the SDS.

5 Q. Did you actually see Mr. Krnojelac on SDS functions, rallies,

6 meetings?

7 A. I didn't pay attention. When they went to Ribarski, that's where

8 they held their meetings. However, as soon as he took the job of warden

9 of the KP Dom, he was with them non-stop. Perhaps some of them did this

10 surreptitiously whereas others did it publicly before the war.

11 Q. Does it mean that it's your conclusion that Mr. Krnojelac was in

12 the SDS because he got this function in the KP Dom?

13 A. Only if he had been a member of the SDS could he have become a

14 person to hold that position and other similar monster-like positions.

15 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac have a function in the reserve army? Do you

16 know?

17 A. I found out that he was a Captain before the war, a reserve

18 Captain, that is.

19 Q. How did you find out?

20 A. There were reserves, so there would be this reserve of a week, ten

21 days, a month, and after that reserve, even those who had a bit more rank

22 would not even take off their uniforms. So then you could see who was who

23 because there were quite a few of them, both Serbs and Muslims.

24 Q. And did you see Mr. Krnojelac wearing uniforms at these exercises

25 that you mentioned?

Page 3200

1 A. Yes. Saw him after these exercises, promenading through town in

2 this uniform.

3 Q. Did you see any ranks on the uniform, or how do you know that he

4 was a Captain?

5 A. I saw those little stars, you know, at that time. There were

6 three or four stars and that meant Captain.

7 Q. When did you see him in this uniform? Can you estimate how much

8 prior to the war that was, that you saw him last?

9 A. A lot, a lot before the war, because just before the war, the

10 reserves were over and everything else was over. I can't remember the

11 dates exactly. Just before the war, there were no such exercises, you

12 see. I mean these reserves.

13 Q. You said when you saw him at the KP Dom, you did not know that he

14 was the warden. When did you learn that he was the warden?

15 A. When these military extremists left the KP Dom, then people knew

16 who the warden was and everything else, because all of these people who

17 worked there from the very outset, in spite of what they were told, that

18 is that they would be killed as well if they talked to us about anything,

19 if they discussed anything with us, but I can say that there were some

20 people who told us everything, at the very outset, who was what in the KP

21 Dom, in the camp, I mean.

22 Q. Yes. And did -- who told you that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden?

23 A. If I had the numbers here -- I mean, this is pretty difficult for

24 me because there are still extremists over there until the present day and

25 although everything is protected around here, I wouldn't like to give any

Page 3201

1 names, the names of these persons, no.

2 Q. But --

3 JUDGE HUNT: The best thing would be -- if they are not on the

4 list already, is to let him write them down.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. Can the witness have a

6 sheet of paper?

7 A. Those two, you see.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, these are not witnesses and

9 they have no witness numbers. These are actually two staff members of the

10 KP Dom. We should maybe assign --

11 JUDGE HUNT: Are they referred to in that document we have? I

12 have forgotten the exhibit number.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, they are.

14 JUDGE HUNT: They can be referred to there.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. A second, please. While my colleague

16 is finding out the number, I think I can continue, or shall we first get

17 this --

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Mr. Bakrac, we will show you the document in a

19 moment once they have got the number of the exhibit.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That is

21 precisely what I wished to say, that the Defence is very curious. We

22 would really like to have a good look at this document.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Certainly.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We just add the numbers and then I will

25 hand this over.

Page 3202












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3203

1 Q. Those you just wrote down, did they actually talk with you and

2 mention that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden?

3 A. They talked to me and what they said was who were all the people

4 who meant anything over there. To them, I mean. They didn't mean a thing

5 to us, but they said to us the following: "Such and such a person is the

6 main person there and this other one is his assistant." They told us

7 everything. I mean, well, that's what they told me. That's what they

8 told me personally. But I don't know if they told other people about this

9 as well. So from the very beginning, I knew who was who over there.

10 Q. And when you said that one was the -- one was the main person and

11 there was one -- one was the assistant, who was the main person and who

12 was the assistant? What did they say?

13 A. The warden of the KP Dom, of this camp, was Milorad Krnojelac, and

14 the deputy was Savo Todovic.

15 Q. Witness, I would just like to give back this piece of paper to you

16 in case you know the first name of the second person. Do you know the

17 first name, then? You would have to add it. Or do you know just simply

18 the nickname?

19 JUDGE HUNT: It would be best still to have it written down, Ms.

20 Uertz-Retzlaff.


22 JUDGE HUNT: If the document can be handed back to the witness, he

23 can have a look at it. If he can give us any further identification of

24 that particular person, it would be helpful.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The two persons are on the list.

Page 3204

1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, can we have a reference in the transcript to

2 their numbers in that particular exhibit number?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry, I've given it to --

4 JUDGE HUNT: I thought that is what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff was doing.

5 I'm sorry, could you give it back to counsel, please? Just give it back

6 to counsel, thank you.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The numbers are already on the paper, so I

8 just --

9 JUDGE HUNT: Let's just have them recorded in the transcript.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The first name is 119 from the list and

11 the other name is 102.

12 JUDGE HUNT: And what is the number of the exhibit?


14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. This document will be marked Exhibit

15 P431, and it will be under seal.

16 You've seen this document, have you, Mr. Bakrac?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


20 Q. These two persons whose names you have written down, did they talk

21 to you only once about the position of Mr. Krnojelac and Mr. Todovic, or

22 on several occasions?

23 A. This was on several occasions. Not only them but the others.

24 Q. What do you mean, "Not only them but the others"? Do you mean

25 additional prison staff members spoke about that to you as well?

Page 3205

1 A. There were. There were other members too.

2 Q. Did a brother of Mr. Krnojelac work in the prison?

3 A. He did work at the KP Dom. He was a driver. On one occasion, he

4 drove us to his village, the village of Zavajt. We were loading wood at

5 that time, so I saw him. He personally drove us there. Also before that,

6 he was a driver too while this was really a KP Dom.

7 Q. And when you say, "He drove us," who else was -- which other

8 detainee was with you? If it is someone from the list, please say the

9 number.

10 A. Number 77 is one of them, was there too, that is.

11 Q. Did you talk with the brother about Mr. Krnojelac, about

12 Mr. Milorad Krnojelac, or did you hear anything?

13 A. When we had set out for that village of Zavajt, we went to a man

14 who made barrels. We loaded a barrel on, onto the truck, and then he

15 unloaded it in front of his house. There was a man from that village

16 there too. He talked to him, and he said, "I told my brother not to take

17 that duty." We heard that with our very own ears.

18 It was strange to us. They were still killing and torching, and

19 we were wondering why he was saying all of that.

20 Q. When you heard the brother of Milorad Krnojelac talk about Milorad

21 in this way to this neighbour, where were you?

22 A. We were there, three or four metres away. We had unloaded this

23 barrel, and we were waiting to board the truck again because we had to

24 drive for an additional kilometre or so to the place where we were

25 supposed to load the wood.

Page 3206

1 Q. You said that you're not remembering dates very well. Can you

2 tell us when this was, approximately? Was it after the replacement of

3 Mr. Krnojelac or during his time as the warden?

4 A. While he was still warden.

5 Q. And can you say which year this happened, that you heard that, or

6 maybe the season?

7 A. The season might have been the month of July or August, whatever.

8 As for all of these things that we did, when we were allowed to go

9 out and do that, well, it could have been a year or two that had elapsed,

10 something like that. Perhaps a year or two after the war had started. I

11 can't remember whether it was autumn or summer.

12 Q. Yes. But you had already been quite some time in the KP Dom; is

13 that what you mean?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Do you know who was supervising Mr. Krnojelac and the prison staff

16 from outside? Who was above them -- who gave them the orders? Do you

17 know that?

18 A. All the orders that they received, they received from these

19 extremist groups led by Maksimovic and Ostojic. However, however, they

20 pretended, when they were talking to us, that it was some third party

21 telling them what to do.

22 Q. Who spoke about a third party?

23 A. There were some of our people from the camp who were beseeching

24 them to let them go out because they had lost such a lot of weight, and

25 they were sick, and they were asking to be released in every possible way

Page 3207

1 because they had done nothing wrong. They had done nothing as such.

2 Their only mistake had been that they were Muslims. And the answer they

3 invariably got was that now it is not these local people who are in

4 charge, that there is some kind of third party who came to run the show.

5 So it's not that there were these local people who were in charge,

6 but even when the local people were in charge, there was killing and there

7 was destruction of property, et cetera, et cetera. So actually, they were

8 deceiving them.

9 Q. You mentioned that Ostojic, Maksimovic, they were giving orders.

10 How do you know that? Is that your conclusion from their position?

11 A. All of Foca saw, on the eve of the war, Ostojic, Maksimovic,

12 Cancar when they met, when they were calling upon the Serb population to

13 join them, to rally together. This was public. We all saw them. There

14 was not a single person from that town who had not seen that.

15 Also we knew while I was at home, until I was taken prisoner, that

16 is, Chetnik soldiers said -- when they started torching and when they

17 started killing, they were giving the names of the persons who had ordered

18 them to do what they were doing. That is to say, those same names of

19 persons who we saw meeting in Foca. And they even stood guard all night

20 so that nobody would attack them, although there was no war there from the

21 Muslim side. They said the names of the persons whom they were guarding.

22 They did not conceal anything.

23 Q. You were talking about the time before the war. Did you ever see

24 any of these politicians you just referred to? Did you ever see them in

25 the prison, in the KP Dom?

Page 3208

1 A. I saw Maksimovic. There was this working part of the KP Dom that

2 functioned as a furniture factory, and now the previous convicts who had

3 not finished making this furniture left some of that furniture behind. So

4 then our people who were detained in the camp were told to finish this

5 furniture. Maksimovic came and he took away some of that furniture. Of

6 course, he was with the warden.

7 Q. Did you see him actually with Mr. Krnojelac?

8 A. Yes. Yes, I did. Yes, yes, yes.

9 Q. Where were you when you saw them?

10 A. I worked at all the places, from the easiest to the hardest one.

11 At that time, I was chopping wood, and that was five metres from the

12 factory, inside, in the yard.

13 Q. [Previous translation continued] -- they pass you, Mr. Maksimovic,

14 and --

15 A. We usually tried to get out of the way, to avoid attracting their

16 attention to -- we tried to hide, not to be seen.

17 Q. Yes. Witness, let us return a little bit in time to the beginning

18 of your detention. When you came into the KP Dom, were you mistreated or

19 abused, either on the way to the KP Dom or at the entrance?

20 A. On the way to the KP Dom, I was so frightened, I was so afraid of

21 those young men, that I thought they would slaughter us, because when I

22 saw and heard torching, gunfire, we thought that was the end. And they

23 ill-treated us so badly that we kept wondering, what's all this? What's

24 it? And when I arrived in the KP Dom, those who, as they called

25 themselves, soldiers - and we know they are killers and thieves from

Page 3209

1 Serbian and Montenegrin prison - they, on the orders of the local

2 Chetniks, took out young men to a hallway. If you open the door, there is

3 the hallway where we are and the like.

4 Q. Witness, let me stop you here. We are coming to these beatings

5 and mistreatment within the camp just a few minutes later. You said that

6 you were ill-treated on the way to the KP Dom. In which way? Were you

7 beaten?

8 A. As we went, with their hands and feet and, "Balijas, what do you

9 want?" and things like that.

10 Q. Were you searched when you entered the KP Dom?

11 A. Searched from A to Z, as the saying goes.

12 Q. Were you registered? Were your particulars taken down?

13 A. They took down our names. I think Cancar was the one who did it,

14 policeman Cancar.

15 Q. Where were you taken within the KP Dom? Into which building and

16 into which room?

17 A. When we arrived in the KP Dom, there was a room in the first

18 building on the ground floor, and when we got there, they put us there,

19 and we saw there beaten people. We could barely recognise them. It was a

20 Croat. I think he was a TV mechanic. Another one was -- worked in a

21 shop. I could not recognise them. And there were sobs and crying. At

22 first, we were all put there, and I heard that allegedly the camp had been

23 opened that day and as they would bring people from their homes, they

24 would put them there.

25 Q. Do you know the number of the room?

Page 3210

1 A. Believe me, numbers and dates, because I know it was the first

2 building, the first building as you enter, and the ground floor. I mean,

3 it is slightly above the ground, there are some stairs there where they

4 brought us, but it is the ground floor where they brought us, a room on

5 the ground floor. There were several rooms there.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

7 show the witness Exhibit 18, the photo 7512. It's this one.

8 Q. Witness, please have a look at the photo, and if it is possible,

9 point out the room where you were taken in. You said a building 1, and

10 can you --

11 A. This here room, this one here. That's it. That's the room.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness, Your Honour, is pointing at --

13 A. As you walk up these stairs and turn.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you. The witness was pointing at

15 the building 1, ground floor, the room to the left side, this left wing.

16 And I think we can say it's Room 11. I think there is no --

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


19 Q. How long did you stay in this room?

20 A. I cannot be absolutely sure about dates or so, but I'd say it was

21 less than a month. We, four of us, were immediately transferred to the

22 kitchen and those other people stayed there and we were isolated in that

23 other building, number 2.

24 Q. And how many detainees were together with you in this first room,

25 approximately?

Page 3211












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3212

1 A. In the first room, it wasn't only one room. It was several rooms,

2 but the same passage and the same entrance. So that by day and by night,

3 more and more people were getting in. It was overcrowded. When I was

4 there, it was simply overcrowded. It was absolutely overfilled with

5 people.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you're letting your voice drop every now and

7 again, and the interpreters are having difficulty hearing you. Could you

8 pull the microphone more directly towards you and lean slightly forward?

9 A. Sorry. I am sorry. Sorry. Do you want me to repeat what I've

10 just said?

11 JUDGE HUNT: I think they have heard you, thank you, this time.


13 Q. You have not yet mentioned how many -- you said a lot of people

14 were there and it became more and more. What was the highest number of

15 detainees in this room, in this set of rooms?

16 A. Well, would it be 70, 80, I don't know, because I did not count

17 them. And new people kept coming in.

18 Q. Yes. And you mentioned that you were -- after some time, you were

19 taken into the other building, in the building number 2, into which room,

20 on which floor?

21 A. Ground floor again, ground floor again. I think, yes, the first

22 storey.

23 Q. Yes. And do we still have the photo there? Yes. Would you point

24 this room out on the photo as well.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness pointed out the ground floor, the

Page 3213

1 ground floor of this wing number 2, and I think we can be -- we can say

2 that it is Room 16.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. That's okay.

5 Q. How long did you stay in Room 16 or in this other -- in this

6 second room?

7 A. Not very long either, because near us there could have been

8 several Serbs who were prisoners in the KP Dom and for some reason or

9 other had not left. And those men did not want them to talk to us or

10 communicate with us or something, so that we didn't spend much time

11 there.

12 Q. So that means you were transferred to other rooms as well within

13 the KP Dom?

14 A. Yes, again inside, because after awhile, more people were detained

15 and the rooms downstairs would simply be too crowded. There would be one

16 over the other. So they began to put people in other rooms.

17 Q. The detainees that you met in the first room and other rooms, were

18 they all civilians?

19 A. Down to the last one. Civilians, all of them. They were all

20 brought from their homes. Now, of course, I cannot vouch for those who

21 arrived from the vicinity, but those who were from the town, I can vouch

22 for them, and there were quite a number of them.

23 Q. Yes. In the initial period of your detention in the first room

24 you were in, was anyone called out and beaten?

25 A. In this room where we were in the beginning, they called out --

Page 3214

1 called a last name Cedic, last name Isanovic. And in the hallway, which

2 was a metre away from the door that you used to go into our rooms, they

3 would batter those young men.

4 What does it mean, "batter"? Beat them up fiercely so that they

5 screamed. And we were so silent that you could hear a fly there. Then

6 they would be brought back into our room again.

7 Q. Who took them out of the room?

8 A. On the orders of local Chetniks. The forces that had come for

9 them, those murderers and thieves, they killed them -- I mean, beat them.

10 But the orders came from our local ones because they did not know who is

11 this and who is that one. It was as those others told them, that they

12 took them out and beat the daylights out of them.

13 Q. Let's stick to what you actually saw and heard. These soldiers

14 who called the two men out, did they call their names? Did they call them

15 out by name?

16 A. Last name. Last name, surname. We were so many that they didn't

17 have the slightest who is who and what is whose name. They would call

18 out. They would say, "Who is this one? Who is that?" And he would, of

19 course, say, "I'm the one. That's me." Last names.

20 Q. Was any guard, a normal prison guard, with them on these occasions

21 when they called out these two men?

22 A. Always. Always, invariably, because he is the one who brings the

23 order for ill-treatment, for battery and the like.

24 Q. And you said they were taken into a room or a corridor or hall.

25 Where? Next to the room where you were or where?

Page 3215

1 A. Right there by the entrance. There is a small anteroom, and into

2 the entrance into our rooms there is an anteroom. Like this door here.

3 Right behind it is a door and that is the anteroom, before the entrance,

4 the same building.

5 Q. And what did you hear? What did you hear when they were taken

6 there?

7 A. We heard they immediately began to beat them, and those young men

8 began to scream and wail. After awhile, they brought those same young men

9 back into those same rooms where we were and they were beaten up.

10 Q. Did you see injuries on them, and if so, what kind of injuries?

11 A. Only a short time later, they were all swollen. We could see

12 bruises, but after some time, we could see how their faces were swollen.

13 And we asked, "Where?" and they said, "All over," but faces you could

14 see.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: When the witness was telling, he was pointing

16 at his face.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


19 Q. And you said one of them was a certain Isanovic. Do you know his

20 name or nickname?

21 A. One was Isanovic. And there was another Isanovic who had been

22 brought beaten up, and he was near our room, separately.

23 Names I don't know because they're quite young. I know their

24 surnames, I know them by sight, but they were much younger than I so that

25 I don't know their names, only their surname.

Page 3216

1 Q. Witness, do you know a Kemo Isanovic?

2 A. Kemo. You're right. That's it. Kemal Isanovic. Yes, his name

3 is Kemal Isanovic, and he was beaten up alongside this Cedic. Yes, Kemo,

4 Kemal. Okay. That's right.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the person Kemo Isanovic is on

6 Schedule B, number 30.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


9 Q. You said he was a young man. Do you know where he was from?

10 A. He's from a locality called the Cohodor Mahala, which is part of

11 Foca. A young man, a very young man, a lad.

12 Q. When you say "a very young man, a lad," what do you mean? Around

13 how old was he?

14 A. He could have been not more than 25, I don't think. Twenty-seven,

15 22. I can't say really. Well, which is relatively young.

16 Q. And this person Cedic, can you tell us anything about him? How

17 old was he? Where did he come from?

18 A. He was also from Cohodar Mahala, from the same locality as

19 Isanovic. He looked even younger to me, younger than Isanovic.

20 Q. Do you know a Zaim Cedic?

21 A. I know a Cedic. He was a lawyer at Tjentiste. He also arrived

22 all beaten up. We asked him how, where? He said, "They beat me non-stop,

23 then non-stop they forced me to eat salt." "I ate pounds of salt," he

24 said.

25 Q. This lawyer Cedic, that is not the Cedic you meant? This is not

Page 3217

1 the young man you just referred to?

2 A. No, no, no. No.

3 Q. What became of these two young men? Did they survive the KP Dom?

4 A. Those two young men were beaten and then taken away and killed.

5 And you will wonder how is it that we know that they were killed. Because

6 everything that went on inside and outside we learned from those men of

7 ours. I can say "our men," because had all the Chetniks been the same,

8 we'd all have disappeared. And through this Court, I can, if anybody asks

9 my opinion to mention them openly, but the time has not come yet to

10 mention them because there are still extremist groups on the ground there.

11 Q. Does that mean you got this information from prison staff or other

12 Serbs outside?

13 A. Naturally. Off the staff, off the prison staff.

14 Q. And you said these two young men, this Cedic and Isanovic, they

15 were beaten up and killed. Does that mean they were taken out again and

16 beaten?

17 A. Again, again. And when those extremists from Montenegro and

18 Serbia had left, they continued to beat them and take them away so that

19 they are missing. They were taken away several times more. But I could

20 not see that because, at that time, I had already left that room. But I

21 heard it from other people, from other people who were in those rooms, and

22 it is 100 per cent true.

23 Q. You also mentioned another Isanovic. Who was that and what

24 happened to him?

25 A. This Isanovic had a coffee shop where I saw, and as much as I

Page 3218

1 told, perhaps it was one of the best coffee shops in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 And after the war had broken out, those same who had come to my room, when

3 they came, they said, "We are sorry," presumably. They always said, "We

4 are sorry." I say made as if they were sorry. And, "We are sorry but we

5 set this place of his on fire." And one of those Seselj's men said,

6 "Well, I've been there with my girlfriend a hundred times or more and I'm

7 really sorry that we had to torch it." And this Adnan Isanovic was beaten

8 up, he bled, and he was in the room next to ours.

9 Q. And was he taken out of the KP Dom in this initial period?

10 A. In the initial period, he was taken away as if to have him

11 examined in the hospital, which is beyond comprehension because they are

12 killing, they are torching, and we couldn't understand how is it that they

13 take our man to have him examined by a doctor. And later on we learned

14 that Adnan Isanovic, one Selimovic, who had his car repair shop, and

15 another one whose name I cannot remember, that they were all taken out by

16 the hospital and killed. And we were also immediately told that.

17 Q. Who told you? And how did you --

18 A. All the staff of the camp. That is, there were several men who --

19 whom I've mentioned, and the like.

20 Q. Did you also hear about their fate on radio?

21 A. Just a moment. Yes, thanks for reminding me. A journalist, Semso

22 Tucakovic, had. I can say certain things in public. A woman of Serb

23 ethnicity who told him about everything that went on in and around the

24 camp, so that these extremist groups thought that Semso Tucakovic was in

25 Foca, and they searched all the cellars and basements and everything again

Page 3219

1 because he reported the truth and the like.

2 Q. Witness, let me interrupt you. We just want to stick to certain

3 victims that you mentioned and that you saw, and just finish these -- the

4 questions related to them. Did you hear on radio that they were killed?

5 A. Yes, we also heard it on the radio. But that information, we hear

6 the same thing within an hour in the camp, and also on the radio, the

7 transistors which we hid very well because they were not accessible to us,

8 and we listened on them -- we listened to them.

9 Q. You mentioned that there were also Serbs in the KP Dom. Where

10 were they kept? Were they always kept separate from the Muslims and the

11 Croats?

12 A. Later on, a few months later, they began to detain Serbs. They

13 were in the next building, in the adjacent building, in this other

14 building, on an upper floor.

15 Q. And who were they? Why were they in the KP Dom? Did you hear

16 that?

17 A. Serbs detained in the KP Dom. There was one among them, and I'm

18 100 per cent sure that he refused to join that Chetnik formation. And

19 others, when the spoils are split up, when they loot, when they rob, when

20 they pillage, and then when distributing their booty, they cannot decide

21 who will get -- who will take what and they simply pull out their pistols

22 and their automatic weapons and kill each other.

23 Q. Those Serb detainees that you saw there, how were they dressed?

24 Were they civilians? Were they soldiers? What did they wear?

25 A. Some of them came in those many-coloured uniforms and some wore

Page 3220












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3221

1 civilian clothes.

2 Q. And this one person that you said you knew and you were sure that

3 he did, he refused to join formations, who was he?

4 A. If -- shall I write his name, please, on a paper? I'd rather not

5 pronounce it loudly because, I repeat, there are still extremists down

6 there who had not been caught. So that until one experiences it, one

7 cannot simply grasp what it means.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, if there is no problem with that, can

9 the witness have a sheet of paper?

10 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it might be better if you dealt

11 with that during the short adjournment, by finding out whether it's on the

12 list of the other exhibit.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's not. It's a Serb citizen. And it can

14 be shown to the Defence counsel, and the only question I have in relation

15 to this and then we should have the break.

16 Q. This person, did he personally tell you that he refused to join

17 the army?

18 A. No. He did not tell that to me personally. I was told by

19 detainees in the camp who came from the same institution that he had

20 worked in, and they went to mow grass. And all the Chetniks who were

21 there spoke about that person, that he was ready to clean all of the loos

22 or anything but that he would not take up arms.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

24 JUDGE HUNT: That document will be Exhibit P432, and it will be

25 under seal.

Page 3222

1 We will adjourn now until 11.30.

2 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Witness, did you have to work in the prison?

7 A. In prison, you had to work. Whenever orders came in, no questions

8 were put. You had to do whatever these orders said you had to do.

9 Anything, anything, anything that you were ordered to do, you had to do.

10 Q. Who ordered you to work?

11 A. Orders were transferred by Savo Todovic. If Savo Todovic was not

12 present, then he would order these guards, and we had to even call them

13 officers.

14 Q. Did Savo Todovic personally give you some tasks? Did he

15 personally call you out for certain labour?

16 A. He got orders from the administration, and he transferred those

17 orders to us over there.

18 Q. My question was: Did he personally give you tasks? Did he

19 personally speak to you?

20 A. Well, he did personally, and the guards did. They had lists.

21 Q. When did you start to work?

22 A. Not even a month had gone by before I started working, on orders.

23 Q. What did you have to do first? Can you give us the tasks in

24 order, in the way -- chronological order?

25 A. At first, I worked in the kitchen. I worked there for a few

Page 3223

1 months. When I watched the prisoners who were the same as I was, when I

2 saw them fainting from hunger, I tried to give them a little piece of

3 bread on the sly so that nobody could see, guards and the kitchen staff.

4 When they saw what I was doing, then I got expelled from the kitchen.

5 Afterwards they called me back into the kitchen. The same thing happened

6 again because I could not take it. I was in the same position as they

7 were, and I could not watch my fellow citizens fainting from hunger. Then

8 I was expelled again.

9 After that, I was forced to do all kinds of jobs that had to be

10 done within and outside the KP Dom. That included chopping wood, also

11 felling trees and loading wood. And they said that this was for their

12 veterans. And the Chetniks who killed the most and slaughtered the most

13 were called veterans by them, and we had to provide wood for them.

14 After loading wood, then I had to go and cut grass for hay.

15 However, since I didn't know how to cut grass for hay, at least I could

16 load it if nothing else.

17 After that loading, we also worked up there at the farm which was

18 within the KP Dom before. We were also digging, doing lots of

19 agricultural work. We were cleaning kitchen coops, pigsties, et cetera.

20 We were digging holes for the swine that perished and things like that.

21 So I was forced to do all these different kinds of jobs.

22 When I last worked at the central workshop, I could not take it

23 any more. On orders, somebody's orders, Savo Todovic was forcing me to

24 work all the time and things like that.

25 So those were the jobs that I did while in the camp.

Page 3224

1 One of the jobs also was when they forced four of us to dig a

2 grave for this mechanic who was an ethnic Muslim. This was at a later

3 stage.

4 All kinds of jobs. As I said, we did all sorts of things. I had

5 all these different jobs. And there were many things that had to be done,

6 and whatever had to be done, we did.

7 Q. Did you ever dare to refuse to work?

8 A. Well, if you would dare to refuse -- I dared once and I know that

9 immediately they would beat you, throw you into an isolation cell and then

10 no one knew how you would end.

11 Q. Did this actually happen to you when you refused to work?

12 A. I refused to work, and then Savo Todovic came to the room where I

13 was and then he kicked me all the way to work, and he was cursing my

14 balija mother and saying all sorts of things he shouldn't have said. And

15 maybe I could even be his father, in terms of age, but that's the way he

16 treated me. That's what happened. So, no way, theoretically even, you

17 could not refuse anything.

18 Q. Were you paid for your work in any way?

19 A. Oh, come on. No way. You couldn't even think of any pay. I

20 don't know how to express myself really. We were Muslims whom they had

21 underestimated to such an extent that they killed them, they beat them.

22 There was no law that was in force. Nothing. We could not discuss pay

23 even theoretically.

24 Q. Did you get extra food when you worked?

25 A. Well, I worked -- I mean, I was in the kitchen when extra food was

Page 3225

1 given. That was a small extra slice and some water. So, for example, if

2 we wouldn't get that, the next day we couldn't move. I mean, to do that

3 same thing.

4 Q. You have listed the various works you did, especially the farm

5 jobs and the agricultural jobs. Was it hard work?

6 A. Just a minute, please. Among all these different jobs that I was

7 forced to do, I was also forced to work in the mine. I didn't tell you

8 about the mine. These were jobs that were hard, even for people who were

9 free men, let alone for us malnourished prisoners. And I forgot to

10 mention that we also unloaded flour for the bakery. When we would pick up

11 a sack of flour, we would fall. However, you'd have to do everything.

12 They would say, "Well, you will get a bit of bread," and we broke our

13 backs. We were falling. Some people literally fell. I fell too because

14 the sack of flour was so heavy. And can you imagine working in a mine?

15 In the mine in Miljevina, when they took us there, that's a mine that's

16 not even protected or anything. I don't know how they worked in that mine

17 before the war too. So that was death, death. It was death to go and do

18 that kind of thing.

19 Q. Did you ever work on the house of the accused Krnojelac or the

20 cafe in the house?

21 A. I worked in the cafe of Mr. Krnojelac with another young man who

22 was a plumber. After the cafe, I also worked in a shop, Krnojelac's

23 shop. The cafe was Krnojelac's while this shop had actually belonged to a

24 Muslim.

25 Q. Let's first stick with the cafe. How often did you have to work

Page 3226

1 in the cafe and what did you have to do?

2 A. In the cafe, I was with this plumber, and we were doing things

3 with water pipes. He wanted the water to be in another place as compared

4 to where it had been before that. I don't know. We were there for about

5 two or three days. However, we were doing that when the warden had

6 already been replaced. That's when we were doing that particular job. I

7 mean the warden of the camp.

8 Q. And when you were -- when you went to this cafe, who took you

9 there and how?

10 A. We were personally taken by Warden Krnojelac in his car.

11 Q. Was -- were you guarded while you were doing the work? Were there

12 additional guards there?

13 A. There was no one there. There were no guards.

14 Q. And you said there was a plumber with you. Who was that? If the

15 person is on the list, just say the number. Otherwise you can say the

16 name?

17 A. Hajric is his last name. His last name. And his nickname is

18 Zenga.

19 Q. And he was a detainee in the KP Dom as well as you?

20 A. Yes, also a prisoner.

21 Q. And you said that you had to work in a shop. Whose shop was it

22 before the war?

23 A. That shop was Saja Sahinpasic's. He had bought it just before the

24 war.

25 Q. And who took you there for doing work?

Page 3227

1 A. Also the warden, the previous warden. By then there was already a

2 new warden, but then it was the former warden. I don't know how he was

3 replaced and what happened, but at any rate, he took us, yes.

4 Q. How often did you work in this shop?

5 A. Well, we worked there for about an hour or two.

6 Q. This shop, you said that it was of Mr. Sahinpasic, from before the

7 war. Who is now the owner of the shop? Do you know that?

8 A. Yes. During the war, all privately-owned businesses were taken by

9 extremists, as we call them, those who made a name for themselves by

10 torching, killing, and slaughtering. So all private businessmen who had

11 shops, all of them were killed.

12 I personally heard the Serb radio when we were working up there at

13 Brioni. Brioni is three kilometres away from Foca. And that belonged to

14 that previous KP Dom and now it was taken over by the camp. And we were

15 listening to the radio that such-and-such business premises were up for

16 rent, and they would be rented by the veterans, as they call them, and

17 then these veterans, who had made a name for themselves by killing and

18 looting and slaughtering, would take them over, and that is well known in

19 Foca until the present day.

20 Q. Who took over Sahinpasic's shop; Mr. Krnojelac himself?

21 A. Mr. Krnojelac --

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] This is an absolutely leading

25 question. "Who took over the shop? Did Krnojelac personally do it?"

Page 3228

1 JUDGE HUNT: It certainly looks like it, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. Is

2 there some previous evidence of that fact, that he had taken it over?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't think that he did. I only asked the

4 witness because he said, "He took me there."

5 Q. Therefore, I would like to know, do you know who actually took

6 over Sahinpasic's shop?

7 JUDGE HUNT: You've rather destroyed the value of any answer by

8 asking the question, I hasten to add, but the objection is upheld. You

9 can ask that question.


11 Q. Do you know who took over this shop, Sahinpasic's shop?

12 A. This is what I have to say: Sahinpasic's shop was taken over by

13 Warden Krnojelac, who handed that shop over to his son. There is proof of

14 that. There was proof of that then, and there is proof of that until this

15 present day. I don't see anything in that that cannot be understood.

16 Q. Was the son of Mr. Krnojelac present when you did your task

17 there?

18 A. He was present, both in the cafe and in the shop. And it was said

19 that since Krnojelac's son fought at the front line and stepped on a

20 mine - there was no fighting there or anything like that - and both his

21 limbs were blown away; since he had other sons, he decided to give this

22 shop to this son and he would be working there.

23 Q. When you were working there, you said Krnojelac's son was

24 present. Was he handicapped at that time when you worked there, and if

25 so, what did you see?

Page 3229












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3230

1 A. Yes. He -- he had no legs, in the cafe, and then -- had no legs.

2 Q. Let me clarify. Did the son who had lost his legs take over the

3 cafe or the shop or both?

4 A. He took over the shop. Warden Krnojelac has other sons. He told

5 me that one would work at the cafe, whereas this other one who had lost

6 his legs would work in the shop, that he would sort of supervise things

7 and that his wife would actually be working and that he would look after

8 it as if it were his own shop.

9 Q. Which son took over the cafe? Would you know who?

10 A. The name? I don't know the name of either one of them. I just

11 know their last names because they are his sons. I was with them, both

12 sons, and one of the sons actually drove me when we were -- drove us,

13 rather, when we were supposed to go for an exchange, and then he said that

14 he was the son. I mean, he was on the bus, sort of escorting it.

15 Q. And when you -- where did you work first, in the cafe or in the

16 shop?

17 A. At first we worked at the cafe, and then when we finished at the

18 cafe, then they told us that they had some little things that had to be

19 done at the shop. So after the cafe, we went to the shop to take care of

20 that as well.

21 Q. When you say "they," whom do you mean?

22 A. Well, this son who had no legs was always there too. He was

23 always there. He would sit there, and he was supervising us, watching

24 what we were doing. Although these others came every now and then, he

25 spent more time with us.

Page 3231

1 Q. Who else was present besides the son who had lost his legs? Was

2 Mr. Krnojelac present?

3 A. Mr. Krnojelac was also present.

4 Q. Did you talk to each other? I mean, you and Mr. Krnojelac, did

5 you talk?

6 A. I talked.

7 Q. About what?

8 A. I talked -- well, here is one subject. I'll describe it very

9 briefly. You know Hajric -- I mean, Krnojelac actually treated me to a

10 brandy too. His son was sitting opposite us, and this Hajric, this Hajric

11 had really had it, both mentally and physically. And I kept telling him,

12 wherever we went to work, "Please don't say anything, because they might

13 kill us." Hajric said he wouldn't talk. Then all of a sudden, he jumped

14 up and he pointed at Krnojelac's son and he said, "Was this necessary?"

15 And I thought that his son would immediately take a gun and kill all of us

16 there. However, we were lucky. So we talked, sort of said, "What is

17 this?" But Krnojelac said, "This will come to an end as well." But all

18 of these were just stories, just stories, whatever was said in the KP

19 Dom. These were false stories. That's what I'm trying to say. When we

20 saw how many people had lost their lives and everything, there was no

21 story that we would believe, that it was not about here or there or

22 wherever. And that proved to be the truth as well.

23 Q. Witness, I did not really understand what you were referring to.

24 Did you talk about -- with Mr. Krnojelac, about the war? Or did this

25 other, this plumber, refer to the war when he said what -- "Was this

Page 3232

1 necessary?" Is that what you mean?

2 A. The plumber did not say, "Was this necessary?" He pointed to his

3 son. He said, "Was this necessary?" He didn't use the plural. Like,

4 "What did we need all of this for?" It was sort of like, "Was this

5 necessary, this?"

6 Q. But what is "this"? I mean, what did he refer to?

7 A. "Why was this necessary?" What he meant was that a young man had

8 lost both legs and these young men, under the leadership of these older

9 men, were forced to torch and kill. That is what was meant.

10 Q. Yes. And how did Mr. Krnojelac behave towards you? How did he

11 treat you?

12 A. Krnojelac, how he treated me, well, what he did seemed so kind,

13 and it would mean kindness if hundreds and hundreds of beaten and killed

14 persons had not been in that camp. Those who did the beatings were also

15 so kind when you would be with them, and then hundreds and hundreds of our

16 men went missing. I mean, have I explained this sufficiently to you?

17 Q. Did he in any way refer to what had happened in the KP Dom or to

18 the fate of the Muslims? Did he apologise, for instance? Did you speak

19 about it in any way?

20 A. None of them talked about that, those who were in the group with

21 Maksimovic and Ostojic. What else do I want to say? Those who were

22 obedient and those who obeyed orders, they --

23 Q. Witness, just answer my questions, because we come to these other

24 things later on. When -- this son that lost his legs, did you ever see

25 him in the KP Dom?

Page 3233

1 A. I saw him. He came to the KP Dom when he had both legs. He had

2 an automatic rifle. He behaved so badly, as if he were conquering the

3 world. He was so haughty. No one dared go out. I don't know what he

4 would have done with any person if he came across him. I worked in the

5 kitchen, you see. Well, he'd never speak to you or something like that,

6 say anything. Not even say hello or anything, no.

7 Q. What was he doing in the KP Dom?

8 A. He came to the KP Dom to visit his father. He was the warden of

9 the KP Dom and, also, he wanted to show how high and mighty he was.

10 Q. Witness --

11 A. As if he were, I don't know what.

12 Q. So you don't know what exact function he had in the KP Dom, if

13 any?

14 A. In the KP Dom, no, he did not have any post in the KP Dom, but he

15 did outside the KP Dom, because he was with all those extremist groups.

16 And even outside the KP Dom, when the Chetniks such as Arkan's or others,

17 I don't know, Seselj's men, they said that they went around neighbouring

18 villages, and whatever, old men or a child, they found in these buildings

19 and they would set them on fire. And they were in all those groups. One

20 cannot say. Whoever took up arms, he was with them.

21 Q. Witness, I simply asked you what his role was in the KP Dom.

22 A. None.

23 Q. When was he wounded, do you know that, and how he was wounded?

24 A. We heard. When he and perhaps two or three others, when they went

25 up to Tjentiste and in that truck, they came over a mine. And the news

Page 3234

1 spread immediately. Everything that happened outside, we learned about it

2 within a day or two.

3 Q. And how did you learn such news from outside? Who told you about

4 it?

5 A. I've pointed out several times, everything that happened outside

6 we heard it on the transistor radio, but we did not have radios any more.

7 They were abolished and seized and so on. But the staff who worked - now

8 I say "staff" because I can't say about those staff, that they were staff

9 indeed. They were the ones who told us that this has happened, that has

10 happened. Whether to me or to somebody else, I don't know, but I knew

11 about it in any case, and I transmitted it all. I never hid it.

12 Q. Do you know the -- the persons Saban Karup and Muharem Alikadic?

13 A. Alikadic. I know both of them personally, Saban Karup and Muharem

14 Alikadic. One of them, that is Saban, drove a truck for a company and

15 that one was a hauler in his own right. They took them away to be as the

16 vanguard. Chetniks followed them and they were in the trucks in front of

17 them, so that if there was a mine somewhere, or something like that, they

18 would perish and those others would then not take the same road. And

19 after completing that job, they were put in isolation cells so, at that

20 moment, he could not tell us anything about where they'd been, why they'd

21 been there or anything.

22 Q. Wait for my questions, please. So these two persons were detained

23 in the KP Dom. Were they always kept separate from the -- from you, the

24 other detainees?

25 A. No, not always. They were kept for a while, and they would be

Page 3235

1 released. They did not stay non-stop as they thought that it would be a

2 secret. They were also released into rooms. And one of them worked, made

3 the furniture. The other one did the kitchen or the bakery or something.

4 Q. How did you -- did you meet them in the rooms and did you learn

5 from them that they had to drive in front of Serbs? Or how do you know?

6 A. From them, from them personally, is how I learned. From them.

7 Q. Did you actually accompany them once on their drives?

8 A. I went personally to Slatina which is a village near Foca, to

9 bring in hay for the farm, hay for the livestock. It was cold and so on.

10 And our truck for the first time entered Slatina and that truck was driven

11 by Saban. And we were detainees, like Saban, in the truck, and we were

12 followed by Serb Chetniks.

13 After we passed through, we learned why we were going first. We

14 learned at that very same moment, because we realised, as soon as we were

15 alone and had no escort with us, we realised that we were to drive in

16 front of them. So on that one occasion I was there.

17 Q. Do you recall when that was?

18 A. I cannot say. I was there for two months and six months, but that

19 was the first time I entered that village. I cannot really, no. I know

20 it was quite cold, and we went to fetch that hay for the livestock up

21 there at Brioni.

22 Q. Were you afraid while you were driven in this first vehicle in

23 front of the Serbs?

24 A. Of course we were frightened. But you know, as we rode -- and

25 after that I was frightened. At that particular moment, I really did not

Page 3236

1 care. Death or anything, I was not afraid at that moment. I thought,

2 Well, if I get killed, never mind.

3 Q. This driver, Saban, was it for him the first drive of that sort or

4 had he already done that before?

5 A. I think he did it before, but I don't really know whether before

6 he went to the isolation cell or afterwards. I think it was after the

7 isolation cell that he undertook another such ride. I think it was after

8 that. Because he was a driver. There was one or two. There was nobody

9 else who could drive it. There was this Muharem and perhaps -- well, and

10 that's it. I don't know if there was another professional driver around.

11 Q. What became of these two drivers that you just mentioned? Did

12 they survive the camp?

13 A. Both drivers survived the camp.

14 Q. You said that you worked in the kitchen. Did you ever see

15 Mr. Krnojelac in the kitchen or in the canteen?

16 A. I saw him in the beginning. I wish to mention, in the beginning,

17 the way he behaved, I thought, This is all great. I shall be out soon.

18 But as the time passed by, six months later I saw him -- it was the first

19 time the Red Cross was allowed to come to Foca, because they would not

20 allow them to put their foot there. So six months later, when the Red

21 Cross came and when they saw people, how emaciated they were, and the Red

22 Cross interpreters were Serbs, and even they could not -- but they were

23 not from Foca. They could not see how people had lost weight, how

24 emaciated they were. So that we asked the Red Cross to improve the

25 quality of food.

Page 3237

1 And I was in the kitchen when Krnojelac, with an interpreter and

2 people from the Red Cross, that is, interpreters were saying to improve

3 food, and then he said, "No way," because he has instructions with those

4 others such as Maksimovic, Ostojic, Cancar, more torture, more -- so that

5 people fall down from food, and people did fall down and die and the

6 like.

7 Q. Let's stay focused on what you heard the ICRC representatives say

8 and Mr. Krnojelac say. What did the ICRC representative ask? What did

9 they say to Krnojelac?

10 A. They requested, through the interpreter in the kitchen, and I

11 heard it with my own ears, that they should send, I heard -- and I also

12 heard they had indeed sent food, but it never reached us. And Krnojelac

13 said, "No. We're not going to do that."

14 I think that Rasevic was -- the guard commander was there too. I

15 think he was present. And I heard repeatedly Rasevic and Krnojelac, that

16 they were not to waver for a single moment, that they were not to step

17 away from the plan they had drawn, that is, suffering is there and

18 suffering will remain. So the Red Cross could do nothing.

19 Q. Witness, I want to hear from you what exactly Mr. Krnojelac said.

20 You said, "No way. We don't do it." Did he say anything else?

21 A. He said, "We are not going to do it," and he said it sort of

22 angrily, and that it was out of the question to improve anything, if you

23 understand what I mean.

24 Q. Did he say why he could not improve the food? Did --

25 A. No. No, not in front of them, because he did not think that they

Page 3238












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3239

1 were -- they wouldn't let them in. They meant nothing to him. Not to

2 him, to this whole extremist part of Foca.

3 Q. Witness, how far were you away from the ICRC and to Mr. Krnojelac

4 when he was having this discussion?

5 A. Two metres. Not more than that. I cannot give -- tell you to a

6 centimetre, but I heard it all.

7 Q. Was no food available?

8 A. Let me tell you about food. The quantity of food was such --

9 Q. Witness, let me interrupt you. We have already had a lot of

10 witnesses who have told us how the food was. The only question -- so it's

11 not necessary to repeat this.

12 The question is: Was no food available or were your rations kept

13 deliberately so small? That they were small, there is no doubt about

14 that.

15 JUDGE HUNT: I wonder what the value of that is,

16 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. How can he tell what was in the minds of those who

17 were providing the food? It's a matter of inference, isn't it, that if

18 somebody else got more food than the Muslim detainees, then it was

19 probably deliberate. But nevertheless, I don't think you can ask him to

20 look into the minds of what the people -- the minds of the people who were

21 supplying the food unless they said something about it.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'll ask it differently.

23 Q. Was more food -- was other food available in the prison that you,

24 the detainees, did not get? Did you see anything to this effect?

25 A. I put it like this: I understood the question and began answering

Page 3240

1 it. Food that was supplied to the KP Dom, to the camp, was minimal,

2 whilst a cow or anything, so much Muslim livestock, Muslim flour had been

3 plundered that it was overflowing. It was overflowing. But later on,

4 economics set in and they said, "Here. We've got economics." But even in

5 the beginning, when there was surplus food, these people were left to

6 starve, if you understand what I mean.

7 Q. Were you beaten while you were in the KP Dom?

8 A. In the KP Dom, Savo Todovic personally, when he came out or,

9 rather, when he escaped from the prison -- what Ekrem Zekovic escaped from

10 the prison - I think that was his last name - at that time I was

11 responsible for the room, that is, I took care about the hygiene and

12 things like that. I mean, it did not mean anything to them, but I was

13 responsible for the hygiene.

14 So they took out the most suspects from that central workshop

15 where they worked, and some others, and I was one of them. And when they

16 brought me downstairs to a passageway, the same as in the first building,

17 they beat me so badly - and one of the worst beaters was Savo Todovic - so

18 that I urinated blood for a year, for a full year. And they did not beat

19 me with some irons from something, but they had brass knuckles down to the

20 boots. And after that, they put me into an isolation cell, and I spent

21 12 days there.

22 Q. In which building were you when this incident happened, in the

23 building 1 or the building 2?

24 A. When it happened, when the incident happened, we were in building

25 number 1.

Page 3241

1 Q. And on which floor were you?

2 A. First floor, I think. I think first floor. Yes. There is one

3 storey and then the next one. We could even call it the second floor if

4 you count the ground floor as the first floor, that is, the first floor

5 above the ground floor.

6 Q. And Mr. Zekovic, was he in your room?

7 A. Mr. Zekovic was also in the room, because we were upstairs, and

8 upstairs there was also several rooms. We called it "in the room,"

9 because we all communicated. There was one entrance door, and the rest of

10 us were there and it was open.

11 Q. Who took you to the place where you were beaten?

12 A. A guard came. I can't remember his name. He told me to go

13 downstairs because they had to ask me something, and they proceeded to

14 beat me straight away.

15 Q. Where exactly were you beaten; in the same building, in the

16 building number 1, or were you taken to another building?

17 A. In the building number 1, ground floor, in the passageway. And

18 they beat there all the others. It just so happened that is where they

19 beat everybody who came, downstairs in that anteroom.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

21 show the witness the photo 7481 and 7482.

22 Your Honours, for your reference, we are talking now about the

23 incident 5.21 in the indictment.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


Page 3242

1 Q. Witness, if you would look at the bottom photo first, the bottom

2 photo first. Do you know what is shown on the photo? What is it?

3 A. On this -- this photograph shows the staircase. Downstairs is the

4 ground floor, and then you take the stairs to get to our rooms. To the

5 left is also another room, but it was not used. It was used in the

6 beginning. And this is the passageway where they took me. Right behind

7 this is a door. And they just stood in a circle. One hit you from this

8 side, another one from the other side, and so on. So this is the

9 passageway. This is the passage where they beat me and I had come

10 downstairs from the upper floor. And here is a door. This door is

11 locked. In this room there was nobody. I'm sure about that. And here

12 there were the WCs. And that is how they beat me.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the space in

14 front and on the right-hand side, coming down the staircase. Yes, thank

15 you. That's enough.

16 Q. And you said that Mr. Todovic beat you. How did he beat you?

17 A. Those had the brass knuckles and hit me with that, and they would

18 go from one set to the side to the other. When I fell down, when I lost

19 all strength, then they hit me as I was lying down, mostly around head or

20 the lower back, but it was with boots. And he wore boots all the time.

21 And after he beat me and beat me and questioned and beat me, and I was

22 saying, "I don't know, I don't know," then he sent me to the isolation

23 cell with this guard of theirs.

24 Q. What did he ask you while he was beating you?

25 A. He asked us about the escape of that one, of Ekrem, who had fled,

Page 3243

1 and that he'd slay all of us balijas, that we did not deserve even what we

2 were getting there, this treatment which beggared imagination. I would

3 say, "I don't know, man." "Of course, you know it all. You're organised

4 well." "What organisation? Never crossed my mind. I barely live. I

5 can't breathe." And the like. And then this one hits, that one hits,

6 this blow, that blow, and there was just this one who did it. And I just

7 happened to remember, Rasevic's deputy, he didn't get at me, perhaps

8 because he knew me, but all the others beat me. And they said they'd kill

9 us all, that all of us should be slain with no second thought, and things

10 like that. And when he saw that I was all beaten up and battered, as soon

11 as he'd beat one, he'd send him to the isolation cell.

12 Q. You said that you urinated blood afterwards. What kind of

13 injuries did you actually sustain? What kind of injuries did you

14 sustain?

15 A. I was beaten in the lower part of my back and he beat me for all

16 he was worth. And to this day, I stopped bleeding in front but I still

17 bleed from the back. And one can see it at all times. And when I go to

18 defecate, one can see that. And I did rounds of physicians but there is

19 no help.

20 Q. And how many days did you need to recover from this beating so

21 that you could move around?

22 A. I spent 12 days in the isolation cell. The first night they told

23 us, "If we don't find him, you will be all killed tomorrow." But this

24 Zeko was found, and I stayed 12 days in the isolation cell, lying down,

25 suffering, and 12 days later a guard came and released me. But you can't

Page 3244

1 do anything. We are trying to tell it to the Red Cross because it would

2 happen in the beginning, when they -- there were interpreters, and I can

3 prove it, and my head down to interpreters who were there in the late days

4 of the camp. But the first interpreters who interpreted when we

5 complained, they transmitted it to the staff. And the young men, those

6 who complained, would disappear then. So I told myself, I mustn't

7 complain, I mustn't anything. Because I had noticed it. We just noticed

8 it. No sooner did someone complain than he'd be called out and then that

9 young man would disappear. And they think while saying it, something will

10 come out of it and something good will happen, but nothing came out of it.

11 Q. Witness, you said that anyone -- that others were as well beaten

12 on this occasion. Did you actually see another detainee being beaten in

13 that same spot?

14 A. I watched with my own eyes when Mandzo, whose nickname was Kelta,

15 I don't know if that is his name, also beat him in front of my eyes but

16 not for a long time, and said, "You go back to your room." I watched it

17 with my own eyes. That is, I watched it with my own eyes because he was

18 right in front of me. And at that moment, there were two of us. They

19 began to beat this one, I watched it with my own eyes. What they said,

20 "Did you have a part in this or not?" "No, no, I didn't, I didn't, I

21 didn't." And he started sobbing and wailing and crying. And they let him

22 go back into the room from which they had brought him. I saw that with my

23 own eyes.

24 Q. And you said you were taken to the isolation cell. Did you see

25 the other -- some other people being beaten in relation to this escape?

Page 3245

1 A. Every one of those men who were in the isolation cell was -- had

2 been beaten, because, for instance, whenever they interrogate somebody,

3 people scream and that is how they come. And the buildings are close to

4 one, to each other, and they get to the isolation cell only within a

5 matter of minutes so that we could hear the screams and yells and then

6 they would come to us.

7 Q. Those -- how many detainees came to -- into your isolation cell on

8 that day? How many were you altogether?

9 A. Well, I cannot give you the exact number but 12 or 13. I would

10 rather not give the exact number. I mean, I can't because I don't

11 remember, but we were 12 or 13, and we were in the same room. And that

12 night, we were ordered to stand, to stand up, after that beating. That

13 is, we had to stand through the night and unless Zekovic was caught, that

14 we would be shot the next day.

15 Q. And these other 11 or 12 detainees who joined you in the isolation

16 cell, were they roommates of Mr. Zekovic, or workmates?

17 A. They were -- in those rooms that were upstairs, they all had one

18 key, that is one entrance, that is one next to the other. So from my

19 room, from his room, and from the third, there were three or four rooms,

20 two small and two large rooms.

21 Q. And why were they locked together with you? What did these other

22 11 or 12 people have to do with Mr. Zekovic's escape, if at all?

23 A. Like this: They assumed that men who worked in the mechanical

24 shop, that if they were beaten, then some of them would say that perhaps

25 they knew, so they will beat them. If they say something, they will say

Page 3246

1 something, or if not, nothing. And that's how it was. And I, because I

2 was the shop steward of that room and some others, that they thought he

3 had communicated with them, that he socialised with them, you know, in

4 those rooms, that he talked to them.

5 Q. And did you -- when they came to the isolation cell, did you see

6 signs of beating on them, on these other people?

7 A. Come, what do you mean, did not see? We all screamed and cried.

8 Because they beat, as they beat me, they beat every one of them. Well,

9 some more, some less, depends on how people succumbed, how people managed

10 to shield themselves from blows. So some more, some less.

11 Q. And you said you were in the isolation cell for 12 days. Who

12 released you from this isolation cell?

13 A. From the isolation cell, when you say, "Who released you," it is

14 people from the administration who release you. And a guard took me out

15 of the cell. But all the orders that come, they come from the

16 administration, but there was a guard who was there, who took me out, the

17 one who was on duty that day.

18 Q. And when -- was Mr. Zekovic eventually captured?

19 A. Zekovic was eventually captured that morning, the next day, when

20 they were to put us before the firing squad, and they brought him to the

21 KP Dom, to the camp.

22 Q. What happened when he was captured? What happened to you on that

23 day?

24 A. When Zekovic was captured, I stayed in the isolation cell -

25 several of us were there - although he had been captured, so that I was in

Page 3247












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3248

1 the isolation cell even longer than Zekovic who had fled.

2 Q. And did -- when he was captured, did you have to go to the yard?

3 Was there a kind of a gathering in the yard?

4 A. When Zekovic was caught, the extremists -- I mean, I always call

5 them extremists because after so many deaths, after so many horrible

6 things that happened, I beg the pardon of the Court but these are

7 extremists. They took him, they took Zekovic out into the yard, between

8 these buildings, in this camp, and what would they say? This is what they

9 said. The warden was there, Savo Todovic was there. I think Rasevic was

10 too. And we were supposed to see an example as to how they treat us, how

11 refined they were, and we all know what we had lived through and how many

12 young people were killed until that moment. They thought that we were

13 there in the camp, that we did not know anything. We were cattle for

14 them. Nothing. And now they wanted to make themselves popular. They

15 said, "Look, look at how we do not kill this Muslim people, how we do not

16 mistreat the Muslim people, how we do not beat up these people, as people

17 say." And we all passed by Zekovic, all of us, all of us who were in the

18 rooms and also those who were in isolation cells, and of course we were

19 all returned to the isolation cells.

20 Q. How long did this last? How long were you actually in front of

21 Zekovic and the --

22 A. Well, it wasn't long; short. Perhaps half an hour, an hour.

23 Q. And you said that the warden was present. Who? Who was the

24 warden at that time?

25 A. At that time, the warden was Milorad Krnojelac, and his deputy was

Page 3249

1 Savo Todovic. So when Savo Todovic spoke, of course, the warden was

2 there. They all looked so proud, as if they were ruling the world. As if

3 they were people of goodwill, as if -- what was it you wanted to say?

4 Q. Witness, did Mr. Krnojelac say anything?

5 A. Mr. Krnojelac just approved of the speech, because when Savo

6 Todovic was delivering his speech, he addressed him too, and he was just

7 voicing his approval, sort of saying, "Right. That's right. That's

8 right," things like that.

9 Q. What do you mean, "he addressed him too"? Who addressed whom?

10 A. Savo Todovic was a bit -- I mean, he was speaking there, and then

11 he was about half a metre away from Krnojelac, and then Savo Todovic, when

12 he would speak, when he would say, "We are so good," et cetera, et cetera,

13 then he would address Krnojelac. He would look at him, and Krnojelac

14 would sort of go, "Right. Yes. Right."

15 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac actually say something or did -- are you

16 referring to body language when you say, "Right. Right"?

17 A. He gave these signs, because all the preparations for the speeches

18 and everything, all of that came from the administration. This man was

19 speaking. He didn't have anything in writing. He wasn't reading. Then

20 he was afraid that he might have missed something or whatever. So that's

21 the way it was. Then he was just nodding away, sort of as if everything

22 that he had been saying was just fine.

23 Q. Were you interrogated while you were in the prison?

24 A. When we reached the prison, after awhile we were all taken to

25 rooms where we were interrogated.

Page 3250

1 Q. And who interrogated you?

2 A. I personally was interrogated by Slobodan Starovic. Actually,

3 Vladicic was in that room. It is Vladicic's office. However, Starovic

4 also came there out of curiosity, because he knew me. So both of them

5 were there. Usually it was only one who was doing the interrogating -

6 that's what others told me - but in this case, there were two of them.

7 Q. Zoran Vladicic, who was he? What did he do before the war?

8 A. Before the war, he was an investigator in the police, in the

9 police, an investigator, something like that.

10 Q. And Mr. Starovic?

11 A. Starovic? He was a redundancy at the high school, so they gave

12 him a job at the MUP. What he exactly did, I don't know.

13 Q. While you were interrogated, were you accused of anything in

14 particular?

15 A. When they interrogated me, they said, "Are you a member of the

16 SDA? Did you have any weapons? Did you have this? Did you have that?"

17 I said, "I'm not a member of the SDA. I do not have any weapons. I

18 haven't got a thing." And they wrote a record. I was so afraid that I

19 signed this without having read a single letter of all of this, because I

20 realised what I had fallen into, and I realised that they could do

21 whatever they wanted to do, so I wasn't really interested.

22 Q. Were you mistreated or threatened during the interrogation?

23 A. Neither one of them mistreated me, probably because they knew me

24 well.

25 Q. And were you threatened?

Page 3251

1 A. Starovic -- I don't know how I came there a second time. He said

2 to me that they were taking everything from houses, from privately-owned

3 houses, and Vladicic was saying, "No, no, no. Don't say things like

4 that." So although at that time I did not really care about what they

5 were doing to things, nevertheless, they were saying through all of that,

6 "You're done."

7 Q. You said that you were scared during the interrogation. Why were

8 you so scared? What did you expect?

9 A. Every meeting with them meant either battery or death. That's

10 what I was afraid of. Death from a firearm would have been fine, but in

11 their case, death meant torture.

12 Q. Did you see other detainees return to your room being beaten?

13 A. I did. Also at that very same interrogation, this and that and

14 the other thing, we were forcing them to say things that were not true,

15 because this battery and everything made people say whatever.

16 Q. Let's be precise. Whom did you see return from interrogation

17 being beaten, in your room? Do you recall anyone?

18 A. I saw -- I saw Professor Dzelilovic. Dzelilovic was his last

19 name. He was beaten after that as well, and then he went missing. He was

20 killed.

21 I saw Vahida, the policeman. He was also -- later they were

22 beaten too, you see.

23 Q. Witness, wait. We have to talk about the persons one by one, and

24 I have always some additional questions in relation to each person. So

25 let's first handle one person and then go to the next.

Page 3252

1 You said Dzelilovic -- Professor Dzelilovic you mentioned. Was he

2 in your room?

3 A. Professor Dzelilovic was not in my room. He used to come to the

4 kitchen for meals. Then he would say to me -- I mean, I would say to him,

5 "Can I do anything to help you?" He had come after I did. I said, "Can

6 I do anything to help?" And he said, "I don't need a thing." Because

7 they beat him there and also when he came to the camp. And his father

8 came in, covered with blood. Then when they were being interrogated, then

9 some of these extremist guards, as they were being brought in for an

10 interrogation, those other guys pretended to be sort of moderate, but then

11 these guards would come in and they would beat them.

12 Q. Witness, I suggest you answer my questions now very precisely,

13 otherwise, we get lost.

14 This Dzelilovic, did you see him with injuries? Did you see him

15 being beaten?

16 A. I did see them. I did see them. All of those who were beaten up

17 had injuries.

18 Q. Yes. When Professor Dzelilovic, when -- how often was he taken

19 out of his room? Do you know that?

20 A. This is the way it was: When I saw Professor Dzelilovic in the

21 kitchen, I saw him very briefly. He used to come to the kitchen, and then

22 he disappeared; that is to say that everybody who was beaten up was killed

23 after that, and they were nowhere to be seen after that. That is what we

24 were told, and all of that proved to be true later on when we got out.

25 His father was slaughtered in the KP Dom, his mother was

Page 3253

1 slaughtered immediately, as soon as everything started, and his sister,

2 let me tell you --

3 Q. Let me interrupt you. Let's talk about -- please answer simply my

4 question and not talk about other people, otherwise, we get confused.

5 Did you see Mr. Dzelilovic with injuries or any signs of beating

6 yourself?

7 A. I did. I did see him when he came to the kitchen.

8 Q. Yes. And when you saw him in the kitchen, you saw injuries on

9 him. Is that what you say?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did he tell you how he got these injuries?

12 A. He said -- I mean, I asked him, "How are you? How are you doing?"

13 and he said to me, "Don't ask me a thing." He said to me that he couldn't

14 even talk to me. Then I asked him -- I mean, since he had -- I asked him

15 whether he had gone for an interrogation. He said, "Yes." So he told me

16 that they had beaten him, and after that, he went missing. He was

17 killed. After awhile, that is.

18 Q. Does that mean that he was taken out from his room on another

19 occasion and disappeared?

20 A. Killed.

21 Q. Did you see him -- did you see that he was called out on another

22 occasion? Did you see him go somewhere or did you only hear about it?

23 A. Let me tell you. The group that came with him, they called out

24 the names of that same group, and they were up there at the office, I

25 mean, upstairs, and they beat them endlessly up there. We heard all of

Page 3254

1 this. Both buildings could hear that because this is right across. Then

2 after that, they disappeared.

3 Now, how did we know that they disappeared? After that, those who

4 had survived, they were taken to the bridge, the railway bridge that was

5 nearby, and we heard shots. Then after the shots, we could hear - you can

6 bring in any expert you want - you can hear something or somebody being

7 thrown into the water, and that is what we assumed. One hundred per cent

8 sure. That's what happened, and that's what the guards told us too, that

9 that's exactly what had happened. So then we said that and they confirmed

10 that.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Look, stop. You really must answer the questions

12 which were asked of you. You were asked a question three or four minutes

13 ago. "Did you see that he was called out on another occasion? Did you

14 see him go somewhere or did you only hear about it?"

15 Now, that question can be answered yes or no. When you have

16 answered that question, you will then be asked further questions -- please

17 just wait a moment. You will be asked further questions to which you will

18 be able to give this history. But unless you answer the questions and

19 only the questions, the whole of these proceedings will be drawn out quite

20 unnecessarily whilst counsel has to go back and start again.

21 Now, please simply answer that question and wait for the next

22 question before you tell us any more.

23 Would you like to ask the question again, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


25 Q. Did you see Professor Dzelilovic being taken to somewhere within

Page 3255

1 the compound on this day when he disappeared?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where was he taken?

4 A. Just taken.

5 Q. Could you see where he was going? Could you follow him?

6 A. I saw him going towards the gate where the offices are.

7 Q. And did you hear anything after he was taken into the

8 administration building?

9 A. He was taken to the administration building, and then I heard

10 moans and screams.

11 Q. Yes. And could you locate -- could you hear, from the sounds,

12 from which part of the administration building these moans and sounds were

13 coming?

14 A. Yes, from the second floor, the offices of the administration.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

16 show the witness the plan 6/1.

17 Q. Witness, can you orient yourself on this plan?

18 A. Yes. This down here is the lower part where you enter, and this

19 up here are the rooms where we were locked up, and this left part was the

20 torture cell for prisoners in those days. And then you take the hallway

21 here, and then you would go to the staircase, and then you would go

22 upstairs, and that's where the camp offices were. And then on -- here.

23 Here. Sort of the middle of the second floor.

24 Q. Witness -- witness, can you point with the pointer on the -- on

25 the part of the administration building where you heard the sounds coming

Page 3256












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3257

1 from, the sounds of screaming and moaning that you just described? Are

2 you able to point that on this, in this section?

3 A. Here, in this part, on the second floor. This part here. You'd

4 pass through here, here, through the door, and then there was this hall,

5 and then through the hall, you would go to the staircase, and the upper

6 part, there were these offices.

7 Q. You were moving around the pointer very much. Can you please put

8 it on the spot and leave it there so that I can really identify it.

9 A. Somewhere around here, here, sort of this area. I mean--

10 Q. Could you -- witness, you're pointing -- at the moment you're

11 pointing -- witness, listen, please. At the moment, you were pointing at

12 the canteen, at the --

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection, Your Honour.

14 He was not pointing at the canteen. He was pointing on the second floor

15 above the canteen, because he said quite clearly, before this, that it was

16 on the second floor of the administration building, and then he showed

17 that it was above the canteen.

18 A. Just a minute, please. Above the canteen, there was nothing.

19 There was just this theatre and cinema hall. I went through every one of

20 the rooms as a prisoner because I was forced to do all this labour, all

21 these different jobs. And now I cannot say, is this the canteen? This is

22 the canteen. Now I see from here -- or rather I do not see. I mean I

23 have to put on glasses in order to be able to see because if this is the

24 canteen, then it is the canteen.


Page 3258

1 Q. Witness, please put on your glasses.

2 JUDGE HUNT: And just wait a moment, will you, so I can deal with

3 the objection taken by Mr. Bakrac? Please, sir. Just wait a moment.

4 Mr. Bakrac, you're quite right. He had said "on the second

5 floor," and he was pointing at the word "canteen" in the map. That's very

6 clear. Now, he's changed what he said before. It's a matter for you --

7 A. I apologise.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Please, sir.

9 You can make what you can of that in cross-examination, but he has

10 said two quite entirely different things. Your point was a good one.

11 That's what he had said. But he was pointing at the word "canteen" and I

12 think that's really all Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff meant.

13 Now, can we just have one more question? And perhaps we will get

14 the answer through by 1.00.


16 Q. Witness, please put the pointer on the spot where you heard the

17 sounds coming from, and leave it on that spot so that we can be clear.

18 A. [indicates]

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the first room to

20 the right-hand side of the entrance.

21 Q. And you said it's on the second floor. Do you count the first

22 floor as -- the ground floor as the first floor, or what do you understand

23 by "second floor"?

24 A. On the second floor -- I mean, there is the ground floor and then

25 this is one floor above the ground floor, because you have to walk up

Page 3259

1 stairs. So it's the first floor above the ground floor. There are

2 offices up there. It's before the canteen, before all of this, because --

3 Q. Yes, thank you. So I think we have clarified this matter, thank

4 you.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you proceed to the next question, then.


7 Q. Witness, you had mentioned Mr. --

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry, Your Honours, I would have to point

9 out that Professor Dzelilovic, that's B-19 and C-7.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


12 Q. Witness, you have already mentioned Vahida. Let me just -- what

13 was the first name of Mr. Vahida?

14 A. I can't -- I can't -- I knew but I forgot. I just know the last

15 name. It sounded sort of strange to me: Vahida. That's how I remembered

16 it. He was a town policeman before the war.

17 Q. Did you see Mr. Vahida with injuries in the KP Dom?

18 A. I did. At that time, I did not work in the kitchen. At that

19 time, I was in the rooms so I was in a room that directly faces the area

20 where the detainees would pass in order to get to the kitchen to eat. So

21 there would be one room, the other room, and all that. And I saw him, he

22 was all beaten up, his face was swollen.

23 Q. Yes. And did you see Mr. Vahida being taken later on, again?

24 A. I did see Vahida being taken.

25 Q. And where was he taken? Was it the same style as Mr. -- Professor

Page 3260

1 Dzelilovic or was something different?

2 A. They took all of our inmates there to those offices up there. I

3 cannot say with 100 per cent certainty now whether it's this office or

4 that office, but at any rate, it was upstairs. It was upstairs. That's

5 where there was battery, if that's the way I should put it.

6 Q. When Mr. Vahida was taken, did you hear the same sounds that you

7 had just described in relation to Mr. Dzelilovic?

8 A. Whenever they would call out someone's name, three or four minutes

9 after that, we would hear moans. Sometimes it would be in the morning,

10 sometimes in the afternoon, sometimes in the evening.

11 Q. And did you hear such moans when Mr. Vahida was taken to the

12 administration building?

13 A. The same, the same moans. Somebody was louder, others would lose

14 their voice, and others would be even louder. So that's the way it was.

15 Q. Did you see him return?

16 A. There was no return from there.

17 Q. And --

18 A. Just a minute. Once I saw him. I saw him return. He was all

19 beaten up as he was passing there to go to eat. And after that, he was

20 taken away. I don't know when that happened, but he went missing and

21 there has been no trace of him since.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this is Schedule C-27 and also

23 the incident 5.29 in the indictment.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


Page 3261

1 Q. Witness, do you know a nurse Mandzo?

2 A. Mandzo, I know his last name. He's the son of a house painter

3 whom I knew personally. And I know Mandzo, too; I mean the son.

4 Q. Did you see him being beaten in the KP Dom?

5 A. I saw him. At that time I was in that room. One room next to the

6 other. When the guards took him and another man, Dzanko -- Cankusic, I

7 saw them being taken away and we heard them being beaten then. And then

8 after this beating, they came to the rooms. One came. I think he was

9 Mandzo. His face was totally disfigured, all cut up. And the doctor who

10 was in the room then, his name is Berberkic, he used a thread and needle

11 to sew up his face. I also saw his feet, all swollen. Once they would be

12 taken out for beatings, they would come back unrecognisable. It is

13 unbelievable, unbelievable. So I saw the way they returned because I was

14 there in that room.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. It is 1.00.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. We will adjourn until 2.30.

17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.









Page 3262

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Before we resume, I remind the parties that we're not

3 sitting tomorrow afternoon because of the Celebici judgement being given

4 in this courtroom. There's been a further incursion upon our sitting

5 times. Judge Mumba and I have to attend a special meeting of the Bureau

6 at 9.00. However, with the cooperation of everybody who looks after us

7 here, we've been able to change the sitting time to start at 10.00 in the

8 morning. We'll sit from 10.00 until 11.30 and then from 12.00 until 1.30,

9 and that will be the same three hours for a morning hearing, so we only

10 lose the afternoon time.

11 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. Please proceed.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Witness, you said that you do not know the first name of this

14 person Mandzo. During your testimony you mentioned a Kelta Mandzo.

15 That's not the same person, or is it?

16 A. Not the same.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution believes that

18 this incident relates to an Emir Mandzo, B-37.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


21 Q. Witness, you said that there is also another person, there was

22 another victim involved in this, and you said that it was a Dzanko. Do

23 you know the first name?

24 A. Dzanko was a salesman near Foca, and I met him only after he

25 arrived in the camp, because we were in the same room.

Page 3263

1 Q. And when he returned, what did you see? Did you see any injuries

2 on this person?

3 A. Both came into the room one after the other, right one after the

4 other, perhaps a minute between them, and one could see on their heads and

5 on their legs how they had been beaten, both of them. This one had a face

6 cut, as I told you already. The doctor, Berberkic, sewed it with a

7 thread.

8 Mandzo was worse beaten. And I know he was a medical technician,

9 and I know he was at the medical centre in Foca. He was beaten worse.

10 The other one was slightly older, and perhaps those swellings wouldn't

11 have -- were to appear because everything would have burst, his legs and

12 everything.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution believes this to

14 be the victim B-18.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


17 Q. Witness, you mentioned a -- in the beginning of your testimony,

18 you mentioned a lawyer, Cedic, that you also met in the KP Dom. Was this

19 person beaten as well?

20 A. Cedic, when I first met him in the camp, told us that even before

21 he'd arrived in the camp, he had had to eat I don't know how many

22 kilograms of salt and been beaten, and in the camp, he was called out

23 and all trace of him is lost.

24 Q. When this person Cedic was -- this lawyer Cedic was called out in

25 the camp, did you hear afterwards the sound of beatings?

Page 3264

1 A. About this Cedic, I'm not sure and I cannot testify about him, but

2 he told the whole room that even before he had arrived in the camp he had

3 been beaten and ill-treated, and after he left, all trace of him was and

4 is lost, when he was called out to come out of the room.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution believes that

6 this is the person B-11.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

8 Q. Witness, you are -- did you know a Nurko Nisic?

9 A. I knew Nurko Nisic well. A relative of mine was married to him,

10 even. He worked for the SUP, the police as it was called. He used to be

11 an investigator before the war.

12 Q. Did you see this person with injuries in the KP Dom?

13 A. I saw him personally with injuries.

14 Q. Where did you see him with injuries? Was he in your room?

15 A. No, not in my room, but whenever those beatings happened, we were

16 always at the window, that is, some distance from the windows, because we

17 dared not approach them close, to see what would happen to them. And he

18 was all swollen, he was all bruised. And he was also killed later on,

19 that is, is missing.

20 Q. Did you see him being taken on several occasions for beatings?

21 A. Yes. He went for beatings repeatedly and the last time, I don't

22 know the date because I don't remember dates and I cannot really say that,

23 he screamed so much when they beat him, and after that, in the evening,

24 they took them away and threw them off the Drina bridge which is very

25 close, that is right behind our dormitories.

Page 3265












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3266

1 Q. You said he screamed so much. Does that mean you recognised his

2 voice when he was screaming?

3 A. We recognised all -- I recognised all people I know, I met, that I

4 knew. I recognised the voices of all those people whom I know well.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, it's C-19 and incident 5.27 in

6 the indictment.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


9 Q. Do you know a Halim Konjo?

10 A. I know him very well.

11 Q. Did you see him being taken?

12 A. And this selfsame Halim, I saw him being taken out, and I

13 recognised his voice too. And he was killed also. And after he was

14 killed, that is ill-treated and beaten in those offices, he was killed and

15 found. I learnt afterwards, and I also attended the funeral, if I may

16 call it that, in Sarajevo, when Amer Masovic [phoen] and others found his

17 body.

18 Q. And did you see Halim Konjo being taken on several occasions?

19 A. On several occasions, oh, yes, on several.

20 Q. Did you see him with injuries?

21 A. Invariably, whenever one of them, whoever it was, whoever went

22 there, he'd come back with injuries, and that includes him.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour it's C-13 and B-33.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


Page 3267

1 Q. Do you know the Rikalo brothers?

2 A. I met brothers Rikalo in the camp. And another relative of

3 theirs, that relative I knew better because he was a waiter in the town.

4 And brothers Rikalo, I only met in the camp.

5 Q. And this waiter, what was his first name?

6 A. I only know the last names. I don't know their name. I know he

7 was -- I know his last name was Rikalo and I know he lived in Cohodor

8 Mahala.

9 Q. Did you see any of those three, the brothers or the waiter -- did

10 you see any of them with injuries in the KP Dom?

11 A. I saw those two brothers Rikalo. Allegedly they worked at the

12 Tjentiste 27 kilometres away. I saw them with injuries several times.

13 And they also then disappeared and were killed, and this relative too, but

14 not as much as those two brothers.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the witness referred to Schedule

16 C, 21 to 23 and Schedule B, 45 to 48.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


19 Q. Witness, do you know a Nail Hodzic?

20 A. I knew Nail Hodzic too. He was a taxi driver for a while, and

21 then worked for Focatrans company.

22 Q. And did you see or hear anything in relation to him concerning

23 beatings?

24 A. He was taken out likewise, in the beginning, several times, and

25 all trace of him is lost, which means that he was killed too.

Page 3268

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-10.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


4 Q. Do you know a Mustafa Kuloglija?

5 A. Yes, Mustafa Kuloglija, yes, I know him too. He lived in the

6 locality of Aladza, and he was also taken out several times and he

7 disappeared, was killed. He was taken out to be beaten. That's how we

8 put it over there. And after that, he disappeared and was killed.

9 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with one of the prison staff about

10 this person, Mustafa Kuloglija?

11 A. I did talk to the head of the -- to the head cook. His name was

12 Krnojelac. He lived in the same building in Aladza. Kuloglija found this

13 on him or found this at his place, so that I saw and realised what was in

14 store for him, because they invented, they made up things as it suited

15 them for individual people, and they sort of explained it to themselves

16 that these people had to be killed.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person, the victim is

18 C-15.

19 Q. Do you know a Krunoslav Marinovic?

20 A. Krunoslav Marinovic. Yes, I know him as well. He is a man of

21 Croat ethnicity who came to the camp all beaten up. And Krunoslav

22 Slabinac, beaten as he was, he was ill-treated everywhere, and after that,

23 they killed him and he is missing.

24 Q. What was the last name of this Croat Krunoslav?

25 A. I know he was married to a countrywoman of ours nee Gagovic. I

Page 3269

1 think his last name was Marinovic. Marinovic, I believe it is. He was

2 married to our woman. He was a TV repairman in the town, and he was

3 married to our countryman [as interpreted] whose last name was Gagovic,

4 but he's a Croat.

5 Q. Yes. Thank you.


7 Q. Do you know Hamid Bico?

8 A. Hamid Bico. Yes, I know him well too. He had a restaurant in

9 Donje Polje, and he was a policeman after that, before the war. He was

10 also beaten and killed.

11 Q. Was he --

12 A. And after that, all trace of him is lost.

13 Q. Was he taken only once for beating or several times?

14 A. Several times. He also watched it with us and also talked with

15 our man, but he -- I don't know what. Anyone who had something in the

16 town, they beat them and battered them and killed them.

17 Q. That was not my question. My question was: You said that he was

18 beaten several times. Did you see him with injuries?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. What kind of injuries do you remember, if any?

21 A. Injuries. They had injuries, but they were protected down there,

22 but on the head there were -- once saw injuries. And whoever they took,

23 they came back with injuries on their head. The only one who did not have

24 injuries on his head was Ekrem Zekovic. All the others had injuries in

25 addition to all the other injuries.

Page 3270

1 Q. Where did you see Hamid Bico when he had injuries on his head?

2 A. All in the passage. Even at the time when I was in the kitchen, I

3 saw that he was injured.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-2 and B-5.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


7 Q. Zulfo Veiz, do you know him?

8 A. Zulfo Veiz. I know that you mentioned name, but all of a sudden I

9 know well -- I know him well. He was the shop steward in the Visoko shop

10 in Foca. He arrived with Marinovic, and he was all black. And when they

11 undressed, both of them -- and I managed to steal some onions from the

12 kitchen in order to apply them to their wounds.

13 They were barely alive when they arrived. They could not move.

14 They could do nothing. And that's the one, Zulfo.

15 Q. Was he taken -- within the KP Dom, while detained there, was he

16 taken away for beatings on several occasions?

17 A. They were taken out, two of them. I don't know myself when they

18 were taken out and killed. Pressure was brought against them immediately,

19 so that they disappeared.

20 Q. You're referring to Hamid Bico and Zulfo Veiz when you say, "The

21 two of them"? Do you mean these two or which two?

22 A. No, no, no. No. Zulfo Veiz and Marinovic, and Bico is another

23 matter.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. And Mate Ivancic.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, sorry, Your Honours, I just forgot to

Page 3271

1 mention. Zulfo Veiz, that's C-29 and 5.27.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


4 Q. Mate Ivancic. Do you know this person?

5 A. Yes, I knew Mate Ivancic from civilian days. When I saw him in

6 the camp I said, "What are you doing here?" "Right. I understand that

7 they are killing us, the Muslims, as they are killing Croats, because that

8 is the objective of the extremists." And I thought that he was a Serb,

9 and so I asked him. And he said, "I am a Croat too." And he was taken

10 out several times and beaten and finally killed and disappeared.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-11.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


14 Q. Do you know the Cankusic brothers?

15 A. I know brothers Cankusic. Well, I know them so-so, but I knew

16 their father well. They were also, right at the beginning, taken out,

17 beaten and killed, and to this day, their father and family mourn them in

18 Sarajevo.

19 Q. Did you see them being taken?

20 A. I saw all of that. They did nothing. They said they were taking

21 them out, just like that, to ask them a few questions. But we knew why

22 they were taking them away, and when they came back, it was all clear as

23 daylight to us.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: These two brothers are C-3 and C-4.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 3272


2 Q. Do you know Seval Soro?

3 A. Soro were -- just a moment. I can't really remember the names,

4 but they were Soros 1, 2, 3, 4. Four Soro families. One was a driver,

5 another Soro was an electrician, a third Soro was perhaps the elementary

6 school, and one was a technician at Brod, three kilometres from Foca, so

7 that I know the last name, but their first names I can't, and all four of

8 them were killed.

9 Q. Did you see any of the four Soros being taken for beatings?

10 A. I saw the Soro who was a driver, and I saw Soro the electrician

11 being taken out.

12 Q. Thank you. Do you know a Fuad Mandzo?

13 A. Yes, I know Fuad Mandzo too. He comes from Donje Polje. He's

14 quite a young man, and I used to know him before. Let me just tell you

15 about an event, about an incident. There were several people called

16 Mandzo and when they wanted to beat this one, Fuad Mandzo, several times

17 got Kelta Mandzo, and Kelta kept saying, "I'm not the one, I'm not the

18 one," because they thought it was Fuad Mandzo. And that is how it

19 happened. But besides, they also beat him badly and killed him, and then

20 he disappeared, several times and it was right in the beginning.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Fuad Mandzo is C-16.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


24 Q. Do you know Enes Uzunovic?

25 A. I know Enes Uzunovic because he was a married to Halim Konjo's

Page 3273

1 sister. And I knew Halim Konjo well and he told me that he was his

2 brother-in-law. He was a medical technician, and he was also in the early

3 days taken out, beaten and killed.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-26.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


7 Q. Witness, do you know a person Alija Altoka?

8 A. Alija Altoka, I know that last name, yes. I know him. He comes

9 from the locality of Aladza, and he was also taken out, killed and beaten.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me; beaten and killed.


13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


15 Q. Do you know a Granov Adil?

16 A. Adil Granov is a young man. That is, I could be -- he could be my

17 son. I knew him personally and I also knew his family. And he was taken

18 out, beaten and killed.

19 Q. What was his profession, do you know that?

20 A. He worked in the wire factory, an engineer. Whether a mechanical

21 engineer or an electrical engineer, I don't really know, but he was an

22 engineer. I think he was an electrical engineer, yes.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's the person C-9.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


Page 3274












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3275

1 Q. Do you know Munib Veiz?

2 A. Yes. I know Munib Veiz too. Well, Munib Veiz, Munib Veiz -- just

3 a moment. Munib Veiz. I know him but I just can't recall his face. Yes,

4 I know the name. All those others, I seem to be seeing them right now.

5 All those others, I seem to be seeing their faces right now. Now, it

6 comes to me. Couldn't it be that Munib Veiz was beaten at the same time

7 with Kruno Marinovic? Now, I'm not quite -- Munib Veiz? I think he was a

8 policeman. If it's not the other one, then Munib Veiz was a policeman.

9 Chestnut hair. Munib Veiz. Munib Veiz. I apologise to the court if I --

10 if this is not 100 per cent correct but I think that this Munib Veiz was a

11 policeman, and every policeman who worked for the police before the war

12 was taken out, was beaten and killed.

13 Q. And just to clarify, you also mentioned Zulfo Veiz. Who of the

14 two is the policeman?

15 A. Yes, Zulfo. Munib Veiz, Munib Veiz. Zulfo Veiz I think worked in

16 a shop. Those are the two where I got a little bit -- Zulfo, Zulfo Veiz.

17 Zulfo Veiz, I think it was, because both had the same last name and I --

18 all I know is surnames. And one was a policeman and the other one was a

19 foreman in a shop, and I know their last names. I think Zulfo Veiz was a

20 policeman.

21 Q. And did you see -- you have already described that this policeman

22 Veiz was beaten on several occasions and you remember that he came --

23 A. He would come back and, after he came back, he was called out and

24 disappeared and was killed.

25 Q. And the shop owner Veiz, what did you see happen to the shop

Page 3276

1 owner?

2 A. He came all black from blows, and after a short period of time, he

3 disappeared, was killed.

4 Q. Was he in your room when this happened?

5 A. He was in our room when he was beaten, and after that, I went to

6 another room, and I was told -- I asked, "Well, what about Marinovic? How

7 about this one? How are they?" Gone. Missing. Killed. And I was in

8 another room.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, Munib Veiz is C-28 and

10 B-59.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


13 Q. Do you know a Kemal Tulek?

14 A. Kemal Tulek, I know him. His brother was a pilot in the Yugoslav

15 People's Army. When he was brought from this place which is near Foca, he

16 spent all the time in a dungeon where they beat him, and I asked to take

17 food there sometimes so I could see who was there. So I saw him in this

18 isolation cell. I personally saw him. After that, I think he was killed

19 and disappeared.

20 Q. This isolation cell that you mentioned, in which building was it?

21 A. The isolation cell was in building 2, not the first one but the

22 second one, and the ground floor.

23 Q. And did you see -- when you went there, did you see injuries on

24 Mr. Tulek?

25 A. Not only on Tulek. Every one of them. They could not have come

Page 3277

1 to an isolation cell without having been beaten up, so, yes, I did see

2 injuries.

3 Q. And did you see when Mr. Tulek was taken for the last time -- away

4 for the last time and did not return?

5 A. Tulek also disappeared. I can't say for sure how long his

6 suffering went on, for several months perhaps, I didn't know when he was

7 taken out because they would take people out during the night, but all of

8 a sudden he was no longer there. He was killed, and disappeared.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, it's C-25.

10 Q. Witness, do you know a Ramo Dzendusic?

11 A. Ramo Dzendusic? Ramo Dzendusic was a salesperson, Dzendusic.

12 Again, when I say Ramo, I'm not very good at names. I don't know people

13 very well by their first names but Dzendusic was in the first room where

14 Mandzo was and where all of us were at first.

15 Q. And did you see him being beaten? Did you ever see him with

16 injuries?

17 A. Let me say straight away that Dzendusic -- if you mean the one

18 that I mean, I saw injuries, but if this is a person who was nearby, who

19 was manager of the shop in Josanica -- let me say one more thing. There

20 is this neighbourhood called Tabaci which is a bit further away and that

21 person from there was also a salesperson, and this man was beaten so badly

22 that he hanged himself in this isolation cell.

23 Q. But let's stick with the person Dzendusic. You said you saw him

24 being beaten. Was he in your room where you were?

25 A. If it is this salesperson from Josanica, he was in my room.

Page 3278

1 However if it's this salesperson who was from Tabaci near Foca, I was not

2 with him.

3 Q. We are talking about the salesperson Dzendusic that you

4 mentioned. Was he beaten in the KP Dom?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes Mr. Bakrac?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection. The witness said that

8 both of the Dzendusics he knew were salespersons.

9 A. I'm not sure about the last names, the last names are very

10 similar. One was Dzankusic or something like that. These last names are

11 very similar so I can't really tell. I actually saw both of them. This

12 salesperson from Josanica and this salesperson from Tabaci. Now, I cannot

13 know the name for sure. If you were to tell me where this salesperson was

14 from, then I would be able to tell you. However, I saw both of them being

15 tortured and killed and they were taken in an unknown direction and

16 killed, both of them.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Bakrac, if I may deal with your objection,

18 he did say earlier on that he wasn't very clear about the names, the

19 surnames. He said, "I don't know people very well by their first names

20 but," and then he gave the name, "was in the first room where Mandzo

21 was." And then later on, he says, "However, if it's the salesperson who

22 was from" somewhere near Foca, "I was not with him." And then the

23 question was, "We are talking about the salesperson that you mentioned."

24 Now I'm not sure what the basis of your objection was. It was the

25 salesperson that the Prosecution was following up.

Page 3279

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said that

2 both of the Dzendusics he knew were salespersons from Tabaci and from this

3 other place, Josanica, and then the question that followed said, "And now

4 this salesperson that you mentioned," but both are salesmen.

5 JUDGE HUNT: You only want identified from which one, from which

6 area?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Which salesperson the Prosecutor has

8 in mind. I mean, which is the salesperson that the Prosecutor refers to

9 as "that salesperson," this one or that one?

10 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you might have already had

11 it cleared up for you by what the witness said while I was trying to

12 listen to what Mr. Bakrac was saying. I wish he would not interfere with

13 the processes of the Court. But I think you'd better sort out, make it

14 very clear with the witness which one you intend him to deal with.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.


18 Q. Witness, the salesperson from Josanica, is that the person who was

19 in your room?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did you see him being beaten in the KP Dom?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. What kind of injuries did you see on him?

24 A. He had swellings on his face, and we asked him, "What happened?

25 Did they beat you in the lower part too?" Then he said, "Yes," and that

Page 3280

1 his legs and feet were swollen as well.

2 Q. Was this person, this salesperson from Josanica, was he taken on

3 another occasion as well and beaten?

4 A. Soon afterwards, both were taken out and they were beaten, of

5 course, and then they disappeared and were killed, because everybody who

6 was taken out was beaten up and killed.

7 Q. Yes. You said this other salesperson from Tabaci. How was he

8 killed?

9 You mentioned -- maybe I misunderstood you, but you mentioned that

10 someone hanged himself.

11 A. The other salesperson from Tabaci. He could not take all of this,

12 all these beatings and everything, and he hanged himself. That

13 salesperson from Tabaci, from up there, he hanged himself in an isolation

14 cell.

15 Q. How do you know that?

16 A. Oh, straight away. I told you, whatever happened, even outside,

17 we knew. We knew all these cases immediately.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the first -- the Prosecution

19 believes that the first person -- the first salesman from Josanica has the

20 name Dzendusic and is mentioned in B-20 and C-8. The other salesperson,

21 the Prosecution believes that it is -- it's actually the person number 6

22 on Schedule C with the name Juso Dzamalija.

23 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sure that the transcript writers will be very

24 pleased to get the document -- please, sir, will you be quiet while we're

25 speaking. Please. It's very difficult for us to speak if we continually

Page 3281

1 hear you speaking over us.

2 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.

3 JUDGE HUNT: There's been a lot of trouble with the transcript in

4 relation to that name, so now that you give them the reference, that will

5 help.

6 Yes. Now, Mr. Bakrac, did you want to object to something?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I don't know how

8 the Prosecutor can say C-6 when that person is Juso Dzamalija, not

9 Dzendusic as this man said, and is not a salesperson at all, but he is an

10 employee of the military department. So the witness did not mention that

11 person at all.

12 What is the Prosecutor thinking of? Why does the Prosecutor even

13 think of C-6 in this context?

14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, you will have every opportunity of

15 pointing that out to us in the course of your submissions at the end of

16 the trial, that the facts upon which the Prosecution relies has no

17 relationship at all to the passage in the indictment which they referred

18 to us. It's not really an objection. All we're being told by the

19 Prosecution is that that's what they say establishes that allegation in

20 the indictment.

21 You may very well be right it has nothing to do with it, but we

22 can't decide that now.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise to you.

24 However, in the system that I come from, this is not allowed. So that's

25 why I thought that perhaps I was acting out of an abundance of caution, as

Page 3282

1 you have pointed out several times. So I sort of signalled now. I

2 objected.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I am not criticising you. I am just

4 pointing out that that is a matter we can't resolve on an objection to a

5 statement made by the Prosecution in court.

6 Will you proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


8 Q. Witness, do you know a Mehmed Sofradzija or Mesa Sofradzija?

9 A. I do. I do personally.

10 Q. Yes. Was he in the camp, and did you see him with injuries or

11 being beaten?

12 A. Mesa Sofradzija, he was staying with his brother who was a

13 military man in Novi Sad. A warrant was issued by these extremists that

14 he be taken prisoner and brought to the Foca camp. He was brought in from

15 Novi Sad to the Foca camp where he was beaten up. He spent more time in

16 an isolation cell than he did in any other room. They did all sorts of

17 things to him.

18 He was not in my room, but I saw him. I saw him before he was

19 taken to the isolation cell. I did not see him in the isolation cell, but

20 I saw him beaten up while he was still in the room. Actually, when they

21 had just brought him from the offices, when they brought him to the room.

22 Then he was taken to the isolation cell where he was beaten up. Because

23 when people were beaten up in isolation cells, you could hear everything.

24 You could hear a fly.

25 He was also killed, and no one's heard of him since. I knew him

Page 3283












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3284

1 personally. That's why I know his nickname Mesa. I know that he worked

2 in the municipality. I know everything about him, where he's from;

3 everything.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is referred to in

5 B-52.

6 Q. Do you know Rasim Kajgana?

7 A. Rasim Kajgana? I knew him personally as well. He had shops of

8 his own. They brought him from Montenegro, from Pljevlje. He was in my

9 room for a short while. Then they took him away and killed him. Since he

10 knew Mojovic who had been killed, he knew him personally, and he begged

11 him to let him go, to ask the people from the administration to let him

12 go, but nothing came out of that. So they took him away and killed him.

13 And everybody who had anything in Foca was killed except for me.

14 (redacted).

15 but perhaps it is God who saved me. Maybe I won't last for a very long

16 time after this, but I have been spared.

17 Q. Witness, did you see Mr. Kajgana with injuries in the KP Dom?

18 A. I did not see him with injuries.

19 Q. Did you see him being taken and did you hear anything afterwards,

20 I mean, screams or the sound of beatings in relation to this particular

21 victim?

22 A. He disappeared. He disappeared. He went from the room; he

23 disappeared. He was killed. There's been no trace of him since.

24 Q. But did you hear the sound of beatings when he was taken? This

25 was my question.

Page 3285

1 A. No. No, I don't seem to remember that, because when they took

2 people out, sometimes I was in the room and sometimes I wasn't, because

3 sometimes we would be out somewhere in the field, working, whatever. So I

4 don't seem to remember him.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's B-32.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


8 Q. Do you know Avdo Mehmedspahic?

9 A. I knew Avdo Mehmedspahic personally. (redacted).

10 He was also beaten up, and he spent all his time there in the isolation

11 cell. And I saw what he looked like. They also brought him later, after

12 I had come, and I saw what he looked like. He looked bad. After that, he

13 was also killed, and he disappeared. He was at the KP Dom, in the camp,

14 very briefly.

15 Q. You said you saw what he looked like. What did he look like?

16 What did you see on him?

17 A. Well, how should I put this to you, what his face looked like,

18 when one of his lips was cut and the other was swollen? I have no words

19 to express myself. I have no words to express that. He looked bad,

20 really bad. When a man is beaten up -- well, I have no words for this.

21 Q. And did you see him in the isolation cell?

22 A. I personally saw him in the isolation cell.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's the person B-40.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


Page 3286

1 Q. Witness, do you know a family or detainees with the last name

2 Hadzimesic?

3 A. I do. These are two brothers from the Aladza neighbourhood. One

4 was a driver, and the other one worked in the accounting department of

5 Focatrans.

6 Q. Do you know their first names?

7 A. Only Hadzimesic. Although they were from Foca, they were youngish

8 men, so I only knew their last name. They are younger. They were younger

9 than I was, and until the present day, I do not know the names of people

10 who are younger than I am.

11 Q. Did you see any of those two being beaten or with injuries?

12 A. The one who worked in Focatrans. He was mistreated more than the

13 other one who was a driver at the medical centre.

14 They were really mad at this enterprise of Focatrans, so they took

15 him and the others out several times. They questioned them and beat them

16 up, and finally he was killed.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution believes that

18 it's the person under B-24.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


21 Q. Witness, did you see detainees being beaten in the kitchen or in

22 front of the kitchen?

23 A. At that moment, I was not working in the kitchen. I was working

24 outside, cutting firewood that came in from the outside. Then our people

25 were lined up for lunch. A few persons came in wearing something like

Page 3287

1 military uniforms, and they started mistreating our people. I was a bit

2 further away, perhaps about 50 metres away. I did not hear what they were

3 saying to them, but I saw them being beaten, one by one, on the legs and

4 on the head.

5 So we who were a bit further off were in a mousehole, as our

6 people tend to say, because we were afraid that everybody would get

7 killed, us included.

8 Q. Do you recall who was among the victims of this incident? Do you

9 recall any?

10 A. At that moment I knew, but there were several of them. There were

11 several of them, actually. This was this group, and then they'd slap one

12 in the face, they'd hit another one on the legs, and then we fled. We

13 tried to hide behind the trees because we thought that this was the end of

14 us. I can just tell you one thing: We thought every minute that that

15 would be the end.

16 Q. And were guards present when this happened?

17 A. The guards. When the extremists would come in, those guards would

18 become tiny or, rather, they would not. They would figure prominently as

19 well. They would start doing the same thing. Perhaps three or four of

20 them -- no, perhaps up to three of them, the same ones all the time. So

21 they really welcomed this. They were really pleased when they saw these

22 other ones beating people up.

23 Q. Let me interrupt you. We have to be very specific when we speak

24 about specific incidents. I want to know if on this occasion when you saw

25 the detainees being beaten by soldiers, on this occasion, did you see any

Page 3288

1 guards present?

2 A. The guards -- whenever anybody would go out into the yard, the

3 guards who were on duty would be there at every moment, whoever would go

4 out into the compound.

5 Q. Do you recall when -- on this specific occasion here, what the

6 guards did?

7 A. Not then. We're talking about this specific occasion. They would

8 just sort of stand aside and pretend that nothing was happening.

9 Q. Was that the only incident of such kind where soldiers from

10 outside beat detainees at lunchtime or did you see such occurrences on

11 several occasions?

12 A. Let me put it to you this way: From the town of Foca, out of the

13 extremists who were in Foca, at any time of day and night, they would come

14 and take people out and kill them, whoever they wanted to.

15 Thirdly, at Brioni, that is three kilometres away, where we

16 worked, the Vojvoda from Medjurecje, I cannot remember his name right now,

17 with two other Vojvodas, came to the bridge where we were working. We

18 were cleaning Brioni. And house painters were using oil to clean the

19 bridge. When they came up, then this man said, "Atif" -- Atif is a lawyer

20 from Foca -- Zelenovic, Zelenovic is the Vojvoda's name. And then he said

21 to this man, "Come here." Then he said, "I have to report to the guard,"

22 and he cursed him sort of like, "What guard are you talking about?" They

23 didn't care. So he took this oil, greased him all over with it, kicked

24 him up, and then this river where they were working, that was the river of

25 Cehotina, and had he thrown him into the Cehotina, he could have drowned.

Page 3289

1 So that was that particular case. Then also let me tell about other cases

2 where there was this exchange.

3 Q. Well --

4 A. I'm sorry. Very well.

5 Q. We cannot talk about each incident. We have to focus on the

6 incident in the indictment. And I just want to know from you, this

7 incident you describe where soldiers from outside came and beat up, lining

8 -- or prisoners in the yard in relation to meals, did that occur several

9 times or did you see it only once?

10 A. Several times. Once I saw when a Vojvoda came - he called himself

11 a Vojvoda - and then there was this man there called Rasim, he wanted to

12 beat him up. He started slapping him in the face. And he said to me, "Do

13 you know him?" And I said, "Yes, I know him." I said, "Please, please

14 don't do that." So he slapped him in the face a few times, kicked him up

15 a bit. So that was another one of these cases of persons coming in from

16 the outside.

17 Q. Did you see a handicapped person being beaten at lunchtime, in the

18 canteen or in front of the canteen?

19 A. I personally saw when there was this deaf-mute man on the

20 staircase. I think that the policeman's name is Pljevaljcic. He was

21 really beating him badly, kicking him. And in addition to all of that,

22 the policeman called Burilo said, "I am going to beat this man so badly

23 that I'm going to make him speak." And that's the way it was. And that's

24 the kind of thing that was done to people. Let everybody know about this.

25 Q. Do you know the name of this person, this handicapped person, this

Page 3290

1 deaf-mute person?

2 A. I don't, I don't. The first time I saw the man in my life, and I

3 didn't ask later on what his name was because he didn't really mean

4 anything to me.

5 Q. Was he the only deaf-mute person, detainee, in the camp or did you

6 meet others?

7 A. There was another deaf-mute from Donje Polje. There was a mental

8 patient.

9 Q. Witness --

10 A. I know about that.

11 Q. I'm talking about the deaf-mute person.

12 A. I don't think -- yes, I think he was the only one deaf and mute.

13 From what I know, I think.

14 Q. And do you know his profession?

15 A. His profession was -- I decipher it through the guards because

16 they said in the yard, "He pretends to be a shepherd and yet informs

17 Bosnian government" or something, and that was in front of us, and he was

18 brought in from some mountains. What he was, I don't know, but he said,

19 "Oh, he pretends to be a shepherd. He is trying to pull the wool over

20 his eyes." But he was quite aged. I really don't know what he could --

21 Q. Do you know what happened to him later on, this --

22 A. He is missing too.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, Prosecution believes it's the

24 person B-35.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 3291


2 Q. Witness, let's -- you said that you were detained quite some

3 time. Do you recall when you were released from the KP Dom?

4 A. May I describe my release in a few words? In October, we were

5 told that we would be taken to be exchanged. And they brought us to

6 Kula. It is a few kilometres from Sarajevo. And a Vojvoda with his

7 Chetniks from Miljevina came, and the guards, the sentries, those who were

8 with us, they simply stepped aside. And he said, "You all back, you will

9 all be killed." And they took us back to Miljevina. It's a locality near

10 Foca. Well, after that, from the administration of the camp, people came

11 and they talked to him and this and that, and if they didn't set us free,

12 then their combatants, as they called it, would not be released, and so

13 they took us back to Kula. We spent waiting at Kula that night, and then

14 early in the morning, everybody was exchanged, and some 12 or 13, I don't

15 know the exact number, stayed behind, in Kula, and I was one of them.

16 Q. And when were you exchanged? How many days later?

17 A. A few days. Again, ill-treated there but they didn't tread on us

18 at least.

19 Q. But I you said that someone from the administration of the KP Dom

20 came to Miljevina to sort the matter out. Who was that who came?

21 A. I think -- no, like this. The warden at that time was Sekulovic.

22 He was the warden then. No, it wasn't Rasevic. What was his name?

23 Arsenic came with him, and yet another one who worked there before. Can't

24 remember his last name but he also worked formerly in what was called the

25 KP Dom and then he also worked in the camp later. They came.

Page 3292












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3293

1 Q. Let me briefly address some other persons who, from the KP Dom.

2 You -- who was the warden before the war?

3 A. Before the war, the warden was -- I'm not really sure, I'll tell

4 you, but his last name was Arsenic Radojica. Radojica was his first

5 name. I think his last name was Arsenic. He was the warden before the

6 war.

7 Q. And this person, this pre-war warden, did you see him in the

8 prison while you were confined there?

9 A. I used to see him in the prison, like this. He was up in the

10 office of the prison for a short while. His wife worked there too, and

11 his wife worked there before the war also. Then he stepped on a mine.

12 Mojovic; that was his name. He was in charge of the farm which is some

13 three kilometres away. That was the farm of the KP Dom, that is the

14 camp. Now, when Mojovic was killed by a mine, Radojica was transferred up

15 there and he became the head of that farm.

16 Q. You said that you -- where did you see Mr. Radojica, this

17 pre-warden. How long did you see him in the prison compound as such and

18 when in Brioni?

19 A. You mean before the war or during the war? I don't understand the

20 question.

21 Q. During the war. Did you see Mr. Radojica, did you see him during

22 the war in the prison compound where you were detained?

23 A. I saw him in the compound too but I knew that he was not the

24 warden. Everybody knew that, because those men who were so emaciated, and

25 I was one of them, but, well, I was -- I had my pride and never wanted to

Page 3294

1 beg anyone for anything. Besides, I saw what they were doing, killing,

2 torturing and so forth, so he asked who can he talk about something --

3 Q. Let me interrupt you. We have to be very focused. Where else did

4 you see Mr. Radojica?

5 A. I saw Mr. Radojica as follows. I saw him in the compound's yard.

6 Then I saw him up where I worked at the farm, Brioni, and he was the chief

7 there, and his deputy was a veterinarian and deputy's deputy was Slobodan

8 Kunarac, whom I also knew well.

9 Q. We are not talking about these other people now, we are talking

10 about Mr. Radojica. How do you know he was the chief in Brioni? Did you

11 talk to him about it?

12 A. Oh, come. He is not a person who ever sought popularity but that

13 one, Kunarac, and the veterinarian, whenever he turned up, if they had

14 forgotten to do something, then they would say, "Oh, here comes the boss.

15 Here comes the warden" -- no, not the warden, the warden was in the KP

16 Dom. And this was the farm and it was a kind of a department of the KP

17 Dom.

18 Q. And you also mentioned a person Mojovic who actually was the --

19 who was there before Radojica. What was he doing? What was his

20 position?

21 A. Head of the farm.

22 Q. How long was he the head of the farm?

23 A. When I speak, I cannot say. He was -- for several months, I

24 think. I cannot really tell you from two but he was there for several

25 months, and after several months, he left with drivers who were Serb

Page 3295

1 convicts, and near Ustikolina they drove over a mine and he was killed and

2 the driver survived. And after that, Radojica took his place as the head

3 there.

4 Q. You have already described that you saw a Mr. Krnojelac on the

5 first day on your arrival and he was wearing civilian clothes. When you

6 saw him later on, what was he wearing?

7 A. Later on, he had a military uniform.

8 Q. What kind of military uniform?

9 A. No rank insignia or anything. Well, like those that the

10 reservists wore before, no rank markings, anything, just plain reservists,

11 those who had no ranks.

12 Q. Do you recall when Mr. Krnojelac was replaced?

13 A. Again, to give you the date, I can't say. He was there in the

14 beginning for a long time and a few months before the end, before we were

15 exchanged, Zoran Sekulovic replaced him and I knew him well too.

16 Q. Did you ever speak with Mr. Sekulovic after he was the warden?

17 A. Knowing Sekulovic well -- and there is faculty of theology in Foca

18 where there was the women's prison before the war, and wherever something

19 had to be done, to be cleaned or whatever, we had to do it, so we were

20 doing it up there, and Sekulovic came. And I said -- no, he said, Hello.

21 Had he not said Hello, I wouldn't have said anything to him, but he did

22 say Hello, so I told him, "Sekulovic, come, is there any possibility?

23 Will you check there if I am being charged with anything or something?"

24 And Sekulovic tells me, "First I have to get my neighbour, my next-door

25 neighbour out." Sekulovic is from a village 12 kilometres away, Atif

Page 3296

1 Jasarevic. So he says, "First I have to get him out and then your turn

2 will be." And that's how it was. First he let Jasarevic go and then

3 there was exchange for all of -- there was the exchange for all of us,

4 yes.

5 Q. You mentioned Savo Todovic already. What was his exact function

6 in the KP Dom?

7 A. Not getting the interpretation.

8 Savo Todovic's position, he was deputy warden in the camp.

9 Q. In a prior statement that you gave to the Prosecutor's office, you

10 said that Savo Todovic had as much authority or even more than

11 Mr. Krnojelac. What did you mean? What does it mean?

12 A. By this I meant that Savo Todovic behaved -- well, our people say

13 he behaved inappropriately even for crazy man. Savo Todovic was given a

14 stick and he used it to vent whatever he felt like venting.

15 Q. When you saw him in the prison, what was he wearing?

16 A. Savo Todovic. Savo Todovic, well, those others called him "Bunda

17 fur coat" because he always had a sheepskin on him, always. Never

18 stopped. Be it summer, be it winter, he always had a sheepskin and boots.

19 Q. Besides the coat, did he wear civilian clothes or did he wear a

20 uniform?

21 A. Later on. Later on, yes, he wore a military uniform, but that

22 sheepskin, that was olive-green/grey, and one could see them worn by

23 civilians and everybody else. The place was full of those sheepskins, but

24 it was the olive-green/grey colour. They called it driver's sheepskin.

25 Must have got it -- must have pinched it from some former driver.

Page 3297

1 Q. You said that he gave tasks to you when you were working, and he

2 was actually in charge of this. Did he also give tasks to the Serb

3 prisoners?

4 A. And Serb prisoners. And Serb prisoners, yes. He assigned tasks

5 to Serb prisoners too, because we could see them go to their rooms, and

6 they all gather around him.

7 Q. You mentioned in the beginning you wrote down two names of staff

8 members that talked about Mr. Krnojelac being the warden and Mr. Todovic

9 being the deputy. Did they say anything else about Mr. Todovic's role or

10 was it that?

11 A. This is how they put it: If we -- "If one of them sees us with

12 you, he can only see how we ill-treat you, how we beat you. But if they

13 see us talking to you" -- the war had already begun, Gorazde was already

14 defending itself, and it is 33 kilometres away from Foca. It was

15 defending itself, when they saw how much was burnt and killed over here.

16 So that whichever of them behaved like that, they would send him to the

17 front line straight away.

18 Q. During your time of detention at the KP Dom, this detention, how

19 did this affect your physical health, except for the beating and the

20 physical injuries that you already mentioned?

21 A. All that I went through there, when I left and was free again, I

22 suffered a stroke and I spent a whole month in coma, because not only the

23 starvation, I also had a wound, and I could not control -- I could not

24 contain myself, and I also bled. I've already told you about this. Then

25 the sugar content rose in my blood. So that I really have nothing of my

Page 3298

1 life any more, nothing. I can't do anything physically. And my wife

2 often says, "Why don't you do something? Why don't you find some job?"

3 But when she saw it all, then she closes her mouth.

4 Q. What about your psychological state of health? Was it also

5 affected and did you suffer later on as well?

6 A. Let me tell you, when I entered this courtroom, changed, it

7 changed a great deal.

8 Q. What do you mean, Witness? You mean your physical health changed

9 or what?

10 A. I suffered major consequences. The Court can appoint a commission

11 to examine me, to see that I am telling the truth, full truth about it.

12 I've become very short-tempered. I've come to dislike myself even.

13 Q. Yes. Thank you, Witness.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions of the

15 Prosecution.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination. Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

18 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I am Mihajlo Bakrac, and I'm one of the

19 counsel for the defendant Milorad Krnojelac. Are you up to being asked

20 more questions or ...

21 A. No, no. I'm quite up to it.

22 Q. So you said in the KP Dom they called you balija; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Not only me, everybody.

25 Q. Would you say it's a pejorative term?

Page 3299

1 A. If I tell you "Bor" and you come from Serbia, from Belgrade, would

2 you feel offended? Well, perhaps not, but to me, yes, because everybody

3 knows what I am by ethnicity, and words which are derogatory, which are

4 expletives, that is how I understand them. Because they said, "Balijas,

5 we shall loot your property. We shall burn your property. We shall kill

6 you," everywhere. In canteens and working sites, everywhere. They simply

7 did not tread on us, but --

8 Q. Thank you. But can you tell me what the word "balija" means?

9 A. Well, now you can turn this word this way and that way. Perhaps

10 you've read something and perhaps you picked out the best way that suits

11 you, but why didn't they call us balijas before, regardless of what you

12 think of it?

13 Q. Sir, I'm not here to argue with you. I'm here to ask you some

14 questions. So will you please wait for me to ask the question, to have it

15 interpreted, and answer me. My question, my specific question was: Will

16 you tell me what the word "balija" means.

17 A. And I'm telling you, you've studied the word. I've never studied

18 it, not in the least to ask myself what the word "balija" was. But what I

19 do know is, and they play non-stopped music in that camp, "Alija, I don't

20 like you because you're balija." Now, if that means something to you. I

21 supposed it does. And I guess I've told you all I have to tell you about

22 this.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Now, look, sir, Mr. Bakrac said to you a few moments

24 ago that you should pause at the end of his question before you commence

25 the answer. Let me explain to you what the situation is.

Page 3300

1 What you are both saying is being translated into both English and

2 French. The interpreters have to listen to the question and then

3 interpret it, so that they are still interpreting the question at the time

4 you hear it finish. When you both speak the language, you, obviously, are

5 not hearing the interpretation. But if you answer the question straight

6 away, then the interpreters can't catch up.

7 So please will you pause for a substantial period after the

8 question before you answer it.

9 Now, that's the first warning I want to give you. The second one

10 is: Please do not try to argue with counsel. Mr. Bakrac is here

11 appearing for the accused. He has a job to do. He is not personally

12 involved in the case in any way. So don't argue with him. Just try to

13 answer his questions. If you don't understand them, don't hesitate to say

14 so, but please remember we are here to work out what happened. We are not

15 hear to listen to arguments.

16 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

17 A. Yes, Your Honour.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Thank you, Your Honours. Always when you answered questions in

20 the -- they were during the examination-in-chief, you always said

21 "Chetniks," everybody "Chetniks, thieves, murderers." Is that the -- are

22 these the words that you commonly use for Serbs, and it is also pejorative

23 to use such words to describe Serbs or is it?

24 A. I shall say it like this: I spoke about Serbs who left, who did

25 not want the war in Foca and who went to Novi Sad. I also spoke about

Page 3301












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3302

1 honest Serbs, about Serbs of integrity who stayed behind but who refused

2 to take up knives or rifles or any other weapons. So I'm not referring to

3 all Serbs. But when I say "Chetniks, butchers," they're not all Serbs.

4 And I never said all Serbs were that. But in Foca and everywhere else,

5 everybody knows who they are.

6 Q. Are you now bitter about those Serbs in Foca who never took up

7 arms?

8 A. Of course I am bitter. I have a bitter -- I'm bitter about all

9 the butchers. You can't even imagine how bitter I feel about it.

10 Q. No, I can understand how bitter you feel about them. And Muslims

11 in Foca, did they have any arms?

12 A. Let me tell you, when the gunfire began by the extremists who

13 started it all, a group in Donje Polje began to defend themselves. To me,

14 personally, people who participated in that fighting on the Serb side,

15 they thought that some passages had been made there or something, but

16 nothing of the kind, nothing of the sort happened, which means that a

17 group tried to save their own lives, and that locality is called Donje

18 Polje.

19 Q. Are you aware that the Muslims began to arm themselves as early as

20 1991 and that they also formed their detachments or, rather, their

21 military formations?

22 A. Well, let me tell you this: When the extremists said, "We shall

23 slay you all, we shall kill all of you if you vote for the sovereign

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, we were as -- we are armed so well and we've got the

25 whole Yugoslav army to back us," to instil fear in those who said that,

Page 3303

1 our men said, and they spoke about this publicly around coffee shops and

2 other places, "Oh, we've got arms this. Oh, we've also got this. We've

3 also got that," to put some fear into those extremists.

4 Q. Which means that Muslims never had anything of this and they only

5 talked big to intimidate the other side, isn't it?

6 A. That was the beginning of the war, because I was there personally,

7 and that's how it was, and that was the beginning of the war.

8 Q. What does it mean, "the beginning of war"?

9 A. The beginning of extremists, the beginning of torching, who

10 started it all. I won't now talk who started it all, because everybody

11 knows who started it all, who butchered, who torched not only businesses

12 but also houses of the Muslim people. And did any church in Foca perish?

13 No. Did any Serb perish when those extremists started the war? No.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I know that that is a provocative answer,

15 but may I remind you that we are not here to determine who was responsible

16 for starting the war. That is simply irrelevant to anything this Tribunal

17 has to decide. We have to determine whether there was an attack upon the

18 civilian population and in the course of it did these things happen, but

19 we are not concerned with who was to blame for the start of the war. So

20 please don't rise to the bait and cross-examine him on that answer. We're

21 not interested in that.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I

23 understood long ago that that was not the subject of concern to the

24 Chamber and never mentioned it, but there is a reason I'm asking the

25 witness about these matters. Not to prove who started what, simply

Page 3304

1 challenge something that the Prosecutor asks almost all the witnesses,

2 that is, about the armament, about their possession at the very beginning

3 of the conflict, and you will see through my other questions that I have

4 good reason to ask those things.

5 JUDGE HUNT: You may well have, Mr. Bakrac, but may I also remind

6 you of something which has been said during the course of this case as

7 indeed in other cases. Let us assume that the Muslims were armed and that

8 they did attack members of the Serb civilian population. That does not

9 mean that there was not also an attack by the Serbs upon the Muslim

10 civilian population. The two are not mutually exclusive. So we are still

11 not terribly interested in this issue. It may be that you can make it

12 relevant in some way, but it is not a matter which on the face of it seems

13 to be helping us very much.

14 All right. We'll adjourn now, and I remind you we will be sitting

15 at 10.00 tomorrow and sitting only for the morning. We will be sitting

16 from 10.00 to 11.30 and then from 12.00 until 1.30.

17 So we adjourn now until 10.00.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.02 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day of

20 February, 2001, at 10.00 a.m.