Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3305

1 Tuesday, 20 February 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 10.30 a.m.

6 THE REGISTRAR: This is case number IT-97-25-T, the Prosecution

7 versus Krnojelac.

8 JUDGE HUNT: We apologise for the late start. Perhaps a very good

9 illustration of why the United Nations should never run Tribunals.

10 Through no fault of any of the participants, the meeting started

11 35 minutes late. But it was an important one, and Judge Mumba and I had

12 to attend it. So we're very sorry for the late start.

13 We'll sit through until 11.30, as we originally stated and then

14 resume at 12.00 and then go through until 1.30.

15 Now, Mr. Bakrac, you're cross-examining.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would like

17 to just ask the usher to help me, please. Because of the ELMO and the

18 screen, I can't see the witness at all. So I find this a bit

19 inconvenient.

20 WITNESS: FWS-73 [Resumed]

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]

23 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you hear me? I said good morning. Good

24 morning. What is the reason why you haven't said "Good morning"?

25 A. I was told that my answers should come a bit late because of the

Page 3306

1 interpretation.

2 Q. Sir, you said in your statements to the Prosecutor that contact

3 with you can be established through AID in Sarajevo. Can you tell me what

4 that is?

5 A. Could you explain that to me? I'm not aware of that.

6 Q. The abbreviation is AID Sarajevo. Is that an organisation? If

7 so, what kind of organisation?

8 A. I'm not aware of any organisation.

9 Q. Is it necessary for me to show you your statement? Would you like

10 to look at it? Would you like to read what it says?

11 A. That's fine.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to

13 help. Could he please show the witness his statement dated the 28th of

14 June 1997. 139A is its identification number. Can he please leave the --

15 Can he please read the text that follows after the words

16 "address."

17 A. Have I signed this?

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would again ask the usher for his

19 assistance. I found the English version.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we can supply it. We have it

21 here, Mr. Bakrac.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I found it. I found it, yes. I do

23 apologise.

24 JUDGE HUNT: This is the English version that you're handing him

25 which has been signed.

Page 3307

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It is marked ID-139.

4 A. I don't know what's wrong about this.

5 Q. The English version that you signed, it also says, "Contact

6 through AID in Sarajevo."

7 A. I was in Sarajevo then. I was questioned by a group of judges

8 from Canada in relation to another person.

9 Q. I understand that, sir. But contact with you is established

10 through AID in Sarajevo. What kind of organisation is that? What is

11 that?

12 A. I know that in Sarajevo there are judges who come from all parts

13 of the world. So as for this organisation, AID, I've never heard of it.

14 Q. Sir, why are you lying to us here?

15 A. So now I'm lying to you? Thank you very much.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The "contact through AID Sarajevo," that's

19 obviously something that the investigator wrote, and to tell the witness

20 that he's lying because he cannot explain this abbreviation, I think

21 that's going far over the top.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I can only say that if that

23 had been inserted by the investigator, it should have been made clear.

24 You can't blame counsel if somebody has signed a document that he may be

25 contacted through a particular acronym, that he would not have known what

Page 3308

1 it is. I agree with you the suggestion that somebody is lying is beyond

2 what is reasonable in the circumstance, and I think the witness reacted

3 quite reasonably in the way he did. Mistaken or asking for an explanation

4 before you assert that somebody is lying is usually the way to

5 cross-examine properly. But I have to say that the way in which the

6 Prosecution takes its statements leads to this sort of problem. The

7 investigator has no job -- it is no part of his duties to add things for

8 somebody else to accept. It could be a note on it somewhere, "This

9 witness" -- by the investigator, "This witness may be reached through AID

10 Sarajevo."

11 Do you know what AID Sarajevo is?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think that's the police in

13 Sarajevo. And very often investigators -- the investigators are supposed

14 to not put down the address of the witness in this witness first page, and

15 therefore this investigator, for reasons I don't know, made this note,

16 probably meant for further contacts. I think it's the police in Sarajevo.

17 JUDGE HUNT: It may be a good idea, just so that it's cleaned up

18 once and for all, if the investigator is asked and we can be told later on

19 just who this group is.

20 But Mr. Bakrac, I think you've spent enough time on this issue.

21 Let's get on to something which is important.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, but please

23 allow me to put about two more questions to the witness in relation to

24 this, because the explanation is highly illogical.

25 Q. Are you saying that contact with you can be established through

Page 3309

1 judges from all over the world? That's what you said.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, now, look, Mr. Bakrac, if there is one thing we

3 have learnt by listening to this witness is that he does not answer

4 questions. He tells us what he wants to say. I'm not saying that in

5 criticism of him, but it's very clear that that's the situation. Now, you

6 are going to provoke more problems than it is worth by trying to get him

7 to keep doing this and to explain why he's doing it. Some witnesses are

8 like that. Let's go to the facts of this case that we really have to

9 worry about. If you think that there is something in AID which is

10 sinister, that you can take advantage of, perhaps you could tell me who is

11 AID Sarajevo. Do you know?

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I know, Your Honour -- or, rather, I

13 know what I heard. I haven't checked this out. I haven't got documents,

14 so I can't stand behind this, but this is an organisation that deals with

15 persons that might testify in court, so I don't really want to stand by

16 these words unless I have their statute, their rules, their articles of

17 foundation, whatever. However, on the basis of what I heard in Bosnia,

18 AID Sarajevo, that is an organisation that is in constant contact with

19 potential witnesses concerning crimes that were committed against

20 Muslims. And that is what many citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina are

21 aware of, and I'm sure that this witness is aware of that as well.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Let's assume that that is so. Where does it get us?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you said yourself a few

24 minutes ago that the way in which this witness answers questions shows

25 certain things. And I think that it is important for the Defence to show

Page 3310

1 the Chamber how this witness speaks about certain matters. After all, the

2 examination-in-chief has shown that this witness does not really have any

3 details. He speaks in general terms about names that are being repeated

4 here, and he doesn't have a very good memory concerning dates and other

5 particular details.

6 When he claims that some persons have been killed, he doesn't say

7 that they went missing, although he never saw any of this, things like

8 that.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I think all of that is perfectly apparent on the

10 transcript and you can make what you can of it, but what I am concerned

11 about is you can pursue a line that he is pro-Muslim and anti-Serb if you

12 wish. I would have thought that's fairly obvious already from his answers

13 throughout the whole of his evidence. I don't say that that's something

14 which we will take into account to his discredit. I'm afraid that both

15 sides seem to have the same problem in this benighted country. But the

16 point is made. I don't think you need to labour that point. That's why

17 I'm asking you please let's go to the facts of the case.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour. I would just

19 like to ask the usher to return these documents to me because I may need

20 them during the course of my further examination.

21 Q. Sir, could you please tell me whether you had an apartment or

22 whether you lived in a house?

23 A. I had a house, and I lived in it.

24 Q. Is that house in Cohodar Mahala?

25 A. It is in the old centre of the town of Foca.

Page 3311

1 Q. So it's not in Cohodar Mahala?

2 A. No, it's not in Cohodar Mahala.

3 Q. And what about the (redacted) or, rather, your business

4 establishment? I beg your pardon.

5 A. The business establishment is three kilometres away from my

6 private house.

7 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, sir, did you obtain any weapons

8 before the war broke out?

9 A. Before the war broke out, and I never believed that this would

10 happen, I did not even think of anything like that. I had a business

11 establishment, and I didn't even have a pistol. And I could have had a

12 pistol, according to regulations, otherwise.

13 Q. On the 9th of April, were some kind of roadblocks set up in Donje

14 Polje?

15 A. As for roadblocks, I don't know about any of them. However, I do

16 know that masses and masses of Serbs passed by my house, and I was

17 wondering what all of that was about.

18 Q. You don't know about the roadblocks by the cafe Bor?

19 A. I don't know about any kind of roadblocks, either from the Serb or

20 the Muslim side.

21 Q. Sir, on the 15th of October, 1994, did you give a statement to the

22 security centre in Sarajevo?

23 A. When I arrived from the notorious camp in which I was for two and

24 a half years, I gave some statements, but until the present day, I've been

25 wondering how I can speak at all.

Page 3312

1 Q. Could you please be so kind as to explain to me what does that

2 exactly mean? How can you say that you've been wondering how you can

3 speak at all?

4 A. After all these atrocities that I personally saw, that I

5 experienced, after slaughters, torchings, killings, I don't know how come

6 I'm alive after all these horrors.

7 Q. That is to say that you are not quite certain that everything

8 you've said here as a witness is true?

9 A. Everything I said here as a witness, except that I don't remember

10 dates and that I do not remember last names with 100 per cent certainty

11 because some last names are similar and these persons are from the

12 surroundings of Foca, so it is only in that area that I see that I'm not

13 100 per cent sure, and I explained this to the Honourable Court. However,

14 all the rest I've been saying is true.

15 Q. When did you have a stroke, sir?

16 A. I had a stroke after I got out of prison. Everything was -- I

17 started eating normally, I started living normally, and a few years ago, I

18 had a stroke when I started having a normal life. I guess that my

19 organism could not deal with all of that, my blood vessels, things like

20 that.

21 Q. When did you suffer a stroke?

22 A. I cannot remember any date specifically.

23 Q. So since your stroke, you haven't been able to remember even the

24 year when you suffered your stroke?

25 A. I can say that I had this stroke about three years ago, two to

Page 3313

1 three years ago. I can't say for sure. I can't say the date for sure.

2 Q. Can you give us the exact year?

3 A. I think it was 1998/1999.

4 Q. Did you remember better before your stroke or has the stroke

5 refreshed your memory?

6 A. My memory, both before the stroke and after the stroke -- except

7 that after the stroke I also got some kind of freshness which I cannot

8 describe to you, actually, because I'm not a medical person.

9 Q. Sir, on the 15th of October, 1994, before your stroke, you gave a

10 statement to the security station in Sarajevo. Did you give this

11 statement at all?

12 A. I think I did.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] In order to help the interpreters,

14 I'm going to read a brief passage slowly, but I'm going to mention where

15 it's from. It is ID 140, statement to the security station in Sarajevo,

16 on the 15th of October, 1994. I'm going to start from the second sentence

17 from the very beginning.

18 Q. "However, since the situation was tense because of the events from

19 the Focatrans scandal and because of the strange relations between the

20 Muslims and the Serbs, some Muslims, including myself, armed themselves."

21 A. Are you asking me to give an answer in relation to that?

22 Q. Do you want me to show you the signature on this document?

23 A. Had I been armed, that moment I would have been beaten, battered

24 and killed, even if I had a pistol with a licence. I think that I've said

25 everything by having said that.

Page 3314

1 Q. So you were not saying the truth in the security centre in

2 Sarajevo?

3 A. The investigator, the first time and the second time, and also the

4 first time I told you when I was questioned in camp about -- given all

5 these horrors of war, I signed everything. I didn't even look at what he

6 wrote down. I'm telling you the same thing now. In the security centre

7 in Sarajevo, when I got out of the notorious camp, tears were flowing all

8 the time. The Chetnik laws are well-known. Everybody who had something,

9 even with a permit, was killed if that was found. That's my answer.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. In the next sentence, you said, "In Foca, the war

11 events started on the 9th of April, 1992, when barricades were set up

12 outside the Bor catering establishment. These barricades were put up by

13 Muslims among whom I recognised a man called Subasic, nicknamed Rana, a

14 man called Lojo and others whose names I do not remember." You said just

15 now that you are not aware of any kind of barricades.

16 A. My answer to this is the following: During the trial, I have said

17 -- during the trial before this Honourable Court, I have said -- or,

18 rather, whatever I said is 100 per cent true. As for the examination in

19 Sarajevo, after I came from the notorious camp, I'm talking about myself,

20 and I'm also talking about what had happened to us. We were beaten, we

21 were totally distraught. So whoever wrote all of this could have written

22 it at his own discretion and I could have signed it. The fact that they

23 say that I was armed, and I have been repeating what happened to people

24 who even had a pistol with a licence, a permit; they disappeared.

25 Q. Do you know that all these people who disappeared had pistols or

Page 3315












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3316

1 weapons?

2 A. No. They were told so. It seems here that I was boasting that I

3 had had some weapons.

4 Q. How come you didn't go missing?

5 A. No, no, because in this text, it says that I had weapons too. In

6 the text, that's what it says. And that is incredible because I never had

7 any weapons.

8 Q. Did you read the statement you gave in the KP Dom?

9 A. When I got this statement, I was so afraid that I would be

10 mistreated, and others as well, I didn't even dare look at it. If that

11 statement said, "Sign this, and this will be your death warrant," I would

12 have signed it.

13 Q. How come you know that that statement did not say that you had

14 weapons?

15 A. They could have written whatever they wanted to. It was their

16 affair. They could write whatever they wanted to write and there was no

17 control whatsoever. So they wrote whatever they wanted to write.

18 Q. In the statement you gave to the security centre in Sarajevo it

19 says that Esad Taljanovic took this statement. Can you guess what

20 ethnicity he is?

21 A. You said Esad. That can be a Muslim only, but then on the other

22 hand, his last name can be Serb or Croat. So I have no idea who he is or

23 what he is.

24 Q. Esad Taljanovic can be a Serb, as far as you're concerned?

25 A. I am saying in terms of his surname. Esad is a Muslim name

Page 3317

1 whereas Taljanovic can be a Serb or a Muslim or a Croat last name. I

2 personally am not really interested in that, I mean surnames and names,

3 whatever it might be.

4 Q. Yes, sir, we know that. We have seen that from your testimony

5 here. However, what about this security centre in Sarajevo? Did it

6 belong to Republika Srpska or to the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina at

7 the time when you gave this statement?

8 A. I was not involved in politics before and I was not involved in

9 politics when I came to Sarajevo, and even now that I came to a foreign

10 country, I am not involved in politics at all, so I didn't really pay any

11 attention to all of this, having gone through all this suffering.

12 JUDGE HUNT: May I remind you, sir, to pause before you commence

13 your answer? As you said earlier this morning, it is important and it is

14 of great help to the translators if you do so. You didn't for the last

15 two answers that you gave.

16 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. What I'm asking you, sir, is not politics; it's a fact. Are you

19 trying to tell me that you had no idea after you were exchanged and came

20 to Sarajevo who Sarajevo did belong -- or, rather, who the Centre of

21 Public Security in Sarajevo belonged to? Is that what you're trying to

22 tell us?

23 A. I am trying to tell you that when I left the infamous camp in

24 Foca, when I gleaned some freedom, I wasn't interested in either this or

25 that. All I was interested in was find my children, find a slice of

Page 3318

1 bread, to recover.

2 Q. But, sir, that is not the answer to my question. I asked you do

3 you know who the Public Security Centre in Sarajevo belonged to at the

4 time when you arrived there, and when you gave a statement there on the

5 15th of October, 1994?

6 A. I repeat, once again, as regards politics, I know nothing about

7 it. But what I want to say is this: When I arrived in Sarajevo, I saw

8 Olivara Visotski [phoen], sister of the brother of a deputy from the

9 infamous camp at Kula, Visotski [phoen]. I saw brother who was in

10 Sarajevo and his brother is in the camp in Foca in the mechanical shop as

11 the shop -- as the chief guard. I saw Trajan Krsmanovic. That is all men

12 I knew. I saw both Serb and Croat and Muslim people, and I thought I had

13 reached freedom and that was all, nothing else.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. I won't go into this. I think I understand from

15 what you tell me. It's all become clear.

16 So it is not correct what you said in the statement that the

17 Muslims who had set up a barricade to Donje Polje did not allow anyone,

18 any of the staff of KP Dom to pass through? That is not true either, is

19 it?

20 A. I told this Honourable Court in my yesterday's testimony. When

21 they saw a group of Muslims being slaughtered, torched, then in Donje

22 Polje, they -- they were defending. And I repeat as the statement says

23 that my neighbour personally told me, "Phooey! We thought it was all dug

24 in," but nothing like that ever happened. That is what I know.

25 Q. So it is true that in that same statement, you said that you had

Page 3319

1 heard stories from people who were close to sources that Foca had such

2 armaments, that nobody could take it, and from the -- and from this

3 statement it seems to you that it fell on the very first day of the

4 Chetnik attack.

5 A. I repeat today what I told the Honourable Court yesterday in my

6 testimony, when the extremist Serbs said that if anyone votes for a

7 sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina that his throat would be slit and his house

8 burnt down. And this story spread around the town. So some, in order to

9 put an end to these tall stories, some said, "Ha! We're stronger. We're

10 better."

11 I said it yesterday. I don't see why I have to repeat that.

12 Q. But, sir, does it seem logical to you that the public security

13 centre in Sarajevo writes then that Muslims put up roadblocks, that

14 they're arming themselves, that you were armed, without your having told

15 them so? Why should the public security centre in Sarajevo, which is part

16 of the Muslim-Croat Federation there, why would they write such a thing?

17 A. I hear what you are telling me and I understand you very well, but

18 I repeat once again, in my business outlet, in my house, from needle to

19 the thread everything was searched and carried away. Had anything been

20 found and I had been driven to the camp -- I was driven to the camp in

21 those same clothes that I was wearing that day.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I interrupt the

23 witness and ask him to answer my questions if I can, or if I cannot, then

24 I think he should say so in order to save time.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, he clearly has not answered your

Page 3320

1 question - you're right about that - but your question was an

2 argumentative one: "Don't you think it's illogical, the explanation

3 you're given?"

4 Your duty as a cross-examiner is to raise the issue that he has

5 signed a document in which there is an inconsistent statement. You've

6 asked him to explain it. He's explained it by saying that he was prepared

7 to sign anything that was put in front of him and he didn't really read it

8 at all.

9 Now, you can test that, if you like, but just arguing with him as

10 to whether it is logical is not testing it, it's just arguing. And if I

11 may say so, you're not getting very far on that issue.

12 He's made his position very clear and we accept it or reject it as

13 it comes at the end of the case. But you've certainly raised the issue.

14 Now, let's get on to the next statement that you want to bring him

15 into conflict with.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I do agree. That

17 is what I intended to do, to just try to move on.

18 Q. Are you familiar with the name Saja Sahimpasic?

19 A. Yes, I am.

20 Q. Are you aware that he was the president of the Muslim Crisis

21 Staff?

22 A. Let me answer you like this: Saja Sahimpasic and his neighbours,

23 when they saw, I repeat, the taking over of the radio station and of the

24 post office - they're both in the town centre - with his neighbours he

25 tried to resist the infamous Chetniks.

Page 3321

1 Q. Did you know Saja well before the war?

2 A. Any Focan of the Bosnian Serb and Croat ethnicity knew very well,

3 every one of them.

4 Q. Yesterday, sir, you told us during examination-in-chief that your

5 wife was kept for one, two, maybe three days in the KP Dom; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Correct. Or let me tell you again. In all that plight, when I

8 didn't know where I was -- and I do not know whether to tell the Court

9 that I love my wife better than I love myself. And I didn't know where my

10 wife was.

11 Q. In this statement to the Prosecutor's Office, you said that, "My

12 wife and I were taken in a car to the KP Dom. My wife was kept there only

13 a few hours."

14 A. Before the Honourable Court I will repeat again. Whether a few

15 hours or a day or two, be that as it may, but she left quickly, and I

16 shall never deny that.

17 Q. You said you came upon paramilitary formations in the KP Dom.

18 Were they standing guard there?

19 A. The KP Dom paramilitary units came for a day or two, perhaps, when

20 we were already there, and all our locals were the ones who had arrested

21 us, who were at the gate, and who took us in.

22 Q. In your statement to the OTP in 1995, you said, "In the prison I

23 saw the soldiers, members of paramilitary units such as Arkan's men,

24 Seselj's men, and the White Eagles. They acted there as guards but they

25 were also helping the prison guards who were locals."

Page 3322

1 A. My answer to this is yesterday I stated before this Honourable

2 Court, and I repeat it today, the miscreants, thieves, murderers who came

3 from the nearby Serbia, from the nearby Montenegro, had been invited by

4 a -- local miscreants, and their cooperation meant slaughter, burn, and

5 take the booty. They stayed there for a short while and they left.

6 Q. Sir, would you know if during the war that you are talking about,

7 were there any casualties, any losses on the Serbs or any victims on the

8 Serb side caused by, inflicted by Muslims? Are you aware of any camps

9 that were kept by Muslims for captured Serbs?

10 A. Are you referring to Foca?

11 Q. I'm referring to Bosnia in general.

12 A. I've already said that I am not interested at all in politics or

13 any other knowledge.

14 Q. So you're not interested in victims. You're not aware of any Serb

15 victims that were -- camps where Serbs were kept; is that correct??

16 A. I'll tell you --

17 Q. No. Tell me if this is correct or if it is not correct.

18 A. What?

19 Q. Are you aware of camps in which the Muslims kept Serbs? Are you

20 aware of crimes committed against Serbs or are you not aware of them or

21 you indifferent to this, as you put it?

22 A. It is not that I'm indifferent to it. I appreciate every life

23 like my own. But what I'm saying is: That is politics. All camps which

24 started, the whole world knows about them. So I don't -- there is no need

25 for me to explain anything to you.

Page 3323

1 Q. But I'd like to hear whether you would call those Muslims

2 miscreants, thieves and --

3 A. I'd call the same name to every man who does anything like that.

4 Q. Sir, in the statement that you gave to OTP, on page 4, the end of

5 the third passage, you say the following:

6 "Savo Todovic, who was representing military authorities there,

7 all orders for torture and killing came through him. I learned that from

8 a person whose identity I do not wish to reveal."

9 Is this statement correct?

10 A. It is correct, and I learned that when criminals began to come to

11 the camp who committed crimes amongst themselves.

12 Q. What criminals do you mean?

13 A. I mean criminals on the Serb side, who -- and I repeat, and I

14 pointed out to the Honourable Court yesterday, when they kill, after

15 they've killed and torched, and then about the booty, who will get more,

16 who will get less, they began to fight among themselves and they killed

17 some of them. I did have an opportunity to meet some of them in Foca.

18 One of them was a salesman in Foca and we also heard it on the news.

19 Q. Is it correct, sir, that in your second statement to the OTP,

20 1997, you said the following:

21 "In relation to what I said in my previous statement about Savo

22 Todovic, a Serb who worked in the KP Dom told me that Savo Todovic was

23 responsible for the execution of the orders of the SDS leadership in the

24 KP Dom. Those SDS leaders wielded control over both military and civilian

25 functions."

Page 3324

1 Is this what you stated then?

2 A. I will put it like this: Not one miscreant who held an office had

3 to be a member of the SDS.

4 Q. But what I'm asking you, sir, is: Did you make this statement,

5 the one that I've just read out to you?

6 A. I did state that, but alongside this reasoning.

7 Q. Did you also state that you had learned that Todovic issued orders

8 to Rasevic, a guard commander, about who was to be taken out for beating?

9 A. My statement, it was phrased like this: I go to enterprise --

10 Q. I'm asking you if you stated this or if you didn't state it?

11 A. I did but -- it wasn't taken into account what the truth is

12 because what it said, what I thought was the real truth and I stated it.

13 Q. In your last statement of 1998, and you were asked about this, you

14 said that Savo Todovic -- that you thought that Savo Todovic had even more

15 authority than Krnojelac. Is that the result of all these statements that

16 you made here?

17 A. I repeat: Savo Todovic was subordinate to the previous one. Or

18 let me put it this way: If you give a fool a stick, then you understand

19 it all, if you get my meaning.

20 Q. I do, sir. Thank you. Yesterday, when you described your first

21 meeting with Mr. Krnojelac, you said you asked him, "What's this?" And

22 that he told you that you would be interrogated in a few days' time and

23 then released. Is that correct?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. In these statements to the OTP, the first one, in 1995, you said

Page 3325

1 that you had seen Krnojelac after arriving in the KP Dom, and then you

2 said, "I asked him, 'What is going on here?' And he merely shrugged his

3 shoulders."

4 In your second -- no, in your last statement of 1998, you also

5 said the following:

6 "When I first saw Krnojelac in the prison, I was taken by

7 surprise. He was standing at the gate. I asked him, 'What's this?' But

8 he did not reply."

9 Did he or didn't he reply to you? In one statement you said that

10 he shrugged his shoulders and said nothing. Today you tell us that he

11 told you what I mentioned already to you.

12 A. I say that when -- when I -- when my wife and I were brought to

13 the camp, we knew Krnojelac personally and we asked him. We knew him. We

14 didn't know those others. And the one who was guard I used to meet in the

15 street at times. And I asked and he didn't reply. He merely shrugged his

16 shoulders. He behaved indifferently, if you get my meaning, something

17 like, "Well, it has to be this way," something, something like that.

18 Q. Well, did he reply or didn't he?

19 A. Well, with this lifting of the shoulders, and in that nightmare it

20 seemed to me that he'd answered it and with this shrugging of the

21 shoulders, I understood that he meant, "Well, this will be over too."

22 That's what I understood with all that fear.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. You knew Krnojelac before the war, did you?

24 A. I knew him before the war but -- and perhaps we sat at the same

25 table in a cafe, in Cisija's cafe.

Page 3326












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Page 3327

1 Q. And was he ever in your business outlet?

2 A. Well, perhaps once or twice. I can't remember exactly because he

3 wasn't the one who patronised coffee shops and restaurants much.

4 Q. Did he perhaps teach any of your sons?

5 A. Yes, he taught my son. He taught mathematics.

6 Q. Did you communicate with him in that regard, with your son's

7 teacher?

8 A. No. I never went to see him to get some information.

9 Q. Nor your wife?

10 A. I can't really say. I can't remember about my wife, but I never

11 went to see him.

12 Q. Sir, if we leave aside the position that you claim he had in the

13 KP Dom, what is your impression -- what was your impression about

14 Krnojelac before the war conflict broke out?

15 A. My impression about Krnojelac as a man before the war conflict was

16 normal.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. Did I understand you correctly yesterday when you

18 said that when you used to see Krnojelac in the KP Dom, did he shake hands

19 with you?

20 A. Personally, I can say, as regards Krnojelac, that he has culture

21 and good manners, and that culture and good manners, I was surprised that

22 it never came to the surface when this Krnojelac said -- decided to send a

23 person like Savo Todovic to communicate with Mustafa Rasevic and --

24 Raskadic and others.

25 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, you used to -- you said that you used to

Page 3328

1 see him in civilian clothes, in a former uniform without any markings.

2 Did you ever see him in a blue, prison uniform?

3 A. The prison uniform was worn only by guards because they had

4 inherited it from the communist, socialist system, and so they walked

5 around in that.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. And I will read out to you what you said to the

7 OTP in 1998:

8 "First time I saw Krnojelac in the prison, I was taken by

9 surprise. In the beginning, he wore civilian clothes, and later on, I

10 would see him only in a KP Dom uniform."

11 A. The answer you know. I repeat again. All that was left over from

12 the KP Dom, they put on. And that also applied to Savo Todovic. That is

13 those olive-grey/green, sheep skin and all that. Whatever they could pick

14 up, they wore, because other people's clothes somehow looked better on

15 you.

16 Q. Sir, are you aware that in the early days of the conflict, Mr.

17 Milorad Krnojelac's house burned down?

18 A. I am aware that in the early days of the war, Krnojelac's house

19 burnt down. That is the upper part.

20 Q. What happened?

21 A. During the shelling, the roof of the forest ranger's house went

22 ablaze and a part of the building went ablaze and, I also heard that

23 Mr. Krnojelac's house went up in flames. But how and why, I do not know,

24 but I've heard about that.

25 Q. Yesterday, when you described the incidents with Cedic and

Page 3329

1 Isanovic, when did that happen? Did it happen on the same day that you

2 were brought to the KP Dom?

3 A. When I was brought to the KP Dom, I say once again I don't know

4 the dates. All I know is that it was the beginning so a list would be

5 brought to those miscreants, that is the locals would bring the list, and

6 these miscreants would take the list and then beat. That was in the

7 beginning.

8 Q. I was about to remind you that you told us that. Now I shall tell

9 you what you said in the statement to the OTP.

10 A. Just a moment. May I ask the Honourable Court, may I -- I need to

11 go to the toilet.

12 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right. We are about to take a break

13 anyway. We will resume again at 12.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.03 p.m.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, if you have any medical problem that you need to

17 attend to, don't hesitate to ask and we will excuse you while you do so.

18 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Sir, before the break I put a question to you in relation to the

21 Cedic-Isanovic incident. I did not ask you to tell me precisely which day

22 this was. Was this the first day when you arrived in the KP Dom? And

23 also, is what you said correct, that is, that the guards of the KP Dom

24 brought the list of those two?

25 A. I pointed out to the Honourable Court, when I was speaking

Page 3330

1 yesterday, that I do not remember a day or two, but at any rate, this was

2 the beginning, when people were first being brought in. After a few days,

3 perhaps even a month had elapsed, but during that month, that is when it

4 happened.

5 Q. Is it correct that it is the guard of the KP Dom who brought the

6 list?

7 A. These extremist forces that were from the area around Uzice, the

8 area around Scepan Polje, these neighbouring lands, they didn't know

9 anyone. So as people would say, they wouldn't even know how to pronounce

10 this last name.

11 Whenever they got these lists, I mean, I'm speaking personally

12 about Cedic, Isanovic, they would always say "Isanovic," because a list

13 had been brought. "Cedic, you should go out into the hall."

14 Q. Sir, I'm going to read to you what you said in your first

15 statement in 1995: "On that first day when I arrived in the KP Dom, two

16 men who were detained with me, Cedic and Isanovic, were called out of the

17 room by two paramilitary men who said that dynamite had been found in

18 their homes."

19 You did not mention any guards; is that correct?

20 A. Again I have to point out, all lists for anyone came from the camp

21 administration, then this is read out. We were there, we the inmates, and

22 when that name is read out, that name goes out and then it says that in

23 the case of that name a radio transmitter was found, weapons were found,

24 whatever. In their case specifically, it was said that lots of dynamite

25 was found. So the others who came in -- I think that's just the way it

Page 3331

1 was.

2 Q. You did not mention any guards here or lists. You mentioned two

3 members of the paramilitary units. "Two members of paramilitary units

4 called out his name and took him out of the room." Is that correct?

5 A. This is correct. However, the list, I repeat again, that they got

6 it and that they worked according to that list.

7 Q. How come you know where they got that list from?

8 A. How come I know where they got that list from? The entrance door

9 into the camp, no one can pass it, either from the inside or from the

10 outside, without being seen.

11 Q. So in this specific case, you saw that somebody passed through the

12 door and had a list. Who was this?

13 A. As far as the list is concerned, they got either in the yard or in

14 the administration.

15 Q. Where did these two members of the paramilitary units get their

16 lists, specifically?

17 A. I am telling you that every list they got, they got from the

18 administration of the camp because, again I repeat, they did not know any

19 of the inmates.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. I'm asking you about a specific case. Did you

21 see who were -- who from, when and where they got that list? I'm asking

22 you about the incident concerning Cedic and Isanovic specifically.

23 A. I repeat -- I've been repeating this for several times now.

24 Extremists who were at the camp would read this and say the following:

25 "Who is Isanovic?" And then he would say, "It's me." "Who is Cedic?"

Page 3332

1 That's what I've been telling you.

2 Q. Thank you. Where were you that morning when the war conflict

3 broke out in Foca?

4 A. When the war conflict broke out in Foca, I was at my business

5 establishment. On that day, we started to work. I've been repeating this

6 several times as well. When I saw the Serb population, people I knew, I

7 saw them going somewhere, going en masse, I was wondering what's all this

8 about? And not three hours had gone by when the shooting started.

9 Q. Who were you with?

10 Could you just wait for the interpretation, please?

11 A. At the moment when the war broke out, I, my wife, and the girl who

12 worked at our place were there.

13 Q. Are you sure you were not in the cafe near the Cafe Bor and

14 drinking coffee with friends?

15 A. Coffee? I did have coffee on that day, in a coffee bar owned by

16 (redacted) and that coffee bar (redacted). That

17 area is called Prijeka Carsija, in the centre of the old town (redacted)

18 (redacted).

19 Q. I'm now going to read to you what you said to the investigators of

20 the OTP in your first statement:

21 "The shooting started around 9.00 in the morning and lasted for

22 about three hours. At that time, I was in a small restaurant and drinking

23 coffee with my friends."

24 A. I don't see -- I mean I just didn't mention the owner of that

25 shop, whose name is (redacted).

Page 3333

1 Q. So you were not near the Cafe Bor?

2 A. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted).

5 Q. Are you sure that you did not say in any one of your statements

6 that you were having coffee near the Cafe Bor?

7 A. I repeat -- I have my own witnesses for everything I've been

8 saying before this Honourable Court. I repeat: As I was leaving the

9 camp, I gave those statements. If anyone had written anything to me, just

10 like in the camp, I would have signed it.

11 Q. Thank you, sir. Where were your children on that day when the war

12 broke out in Foca?

13 A. When the war broke out in Foca, my children were spending the

14 weekend 33 kilometres away. The town is called Gorazde.

15 Q. Spending the weekend there, where, with whom?

16 A. They were visiting with my sister, my only sister, and her husband

17 and her children.

18 Q. Do you know what day this was when the conflict broke out?

19 A. I think in my opinion, that it was the first day after the

20 weekend.

21 Q. You said that they had left for the weekend?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the first day after the weekend, they were not there?

24 A. They went away for the weekend. And let me tell the Honourable

25 Court the other thing. These same children went to Novi Sad when they

Page 3334

1 heard that everything was burning over here and that it was being

2 torched. They went to stay with their grandmother.

3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you mentioned that with Arso Krnojelac, a

4 driver of the KP Dom, you drove barrels to Zavajt. Who were you taking

5 these barrels to?

6 A. Yesterday - and also today I'm saying it before this Honourable

7 Court - I said -- I spoke of one barrel only, not barrels. We took this

8 barrel from this barrel man who made -- who made these barrels by the Serb

9 cemetery in Foca.

10 Q. And who did you take it to in Zavajt?

11 A. That barrel was something that we had to take because we were

12 going to load wood in Zavajt anyway, so that barrel was loaded by the

13 driver of the freight vehicle. His last name is also Krnojelac and it's

14 only then that I found out that he was Krnojelac's brother.

15 Q. Sir, it was my understanding yesterday that you said that you

16 unloaded that barrel in Zavajt in front of the house. In front of whose

17 house?

18 A. We unloaded that barrel -- I mean, Krnojelac's brother said that

19 it was his barrel, and we unloaded it in front of the house. And I did

20 not know exactly, because Krnojelac and his brother moved into Foca. He

21 unloaded it there in front of the house, and I thought that it was his

22 house because he said that it was his barrel.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. All of this related to the barrel, I mean, what

24 you heard. You said that the barrel was unloaded. Who did Arso Krnojelac

25 talk to when he said that he was telling his brother not to take that duty

Page 3335

1 upon him?

2 A. A villager - I mean, after we unloaded that barrel - talked to

3 Krnojelac's brother. And we were waiting for this conversation to end

4 because we did not dare do anything without orders. We personally heard

5 this conversation.

6 Q. You don't have to repeat all of this. You said all of this

7 yesterday. I was just wondering whether you had remembered all of it.

8 A. Oh, I'm sorry.

9 Q. Are you sure that there is only one Krnojelac house in Zavajt?

10 A. In response to your question -- I mean, I answered your question

11 before that. All the people who came from the vicinity -- I mean, until

12 the present day, I do not know -- until the present day, I do not know

13 which village they are from.

14 Q. Sir, you gave three statements to the Office of the Prosecutor and

15 one to the security station in Sarajevo. Why did you not mention this in

16 a single statement that you had given? Did you remember this only nine

17 years later?

18 A. Let me explain something to you in relation to this question.

19 This didn't mean a thing to me.

20 Q. And why did it mean something to you yesterday?

21 A. Let me explain this to you. You are asking me about every single

22 detail, so I have to concentrate so hard that I have to answer whatever

23 you are asking me to answer in relation to every little detail.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.


Page 3336

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness had actually talked about this

2 incident before in a statement given to the Prosecutor's Office, and it's

3 a statement given on the 16th and 18th December 1998, where he was

4 questioned about Krnojelac particularly, and in the last paragraph, he

5 actually mentions this incident. He doesn't speak about this village as

6 such but about the incident.

7 JUDGE HUNT: You mean with the barrel.


9 JUDGE HUNT: And has that been given to the Defence?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't want the

12 Prosecutor to understand this as criticism, but I got that statement only

13 yesterday, just before this witness came in, for the very first time.

14 Secondly, it was not presented in the same form as the witness had put it

15 here.

16 I'm going to read it out to him, and in my opinion, this is not

17 the same statement. With your permission, let this be my question as

18 well, and at the same time, this may be an explanation of what I have been

19 telling you what this statement actually says.

20 "After Krnojelac went to prison, his older brother, who was a

21 driver in the prison, he talked to other detainees on the truck. I do not

22 remember who was there any more, but I remember that he criticised his

23 brother about what had happened in KP Dom because he accepted the post of

24 commander of the prison."

25 I don't know how he mentioned a barrel in Zavajt or talking to a

Page 3337












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 3338

1 person from that village. There's been no mention of that here.

2 Secondly, the witness said that at the time, Milorad Krnojelac was the

3 warden.

4 So I don't want to identify his testimony now as something that

5 had already been put in the same way previously.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, there doesn't seem to be

7 any reference to a barrel there. There is a reference to a truck. It's a

8 shame it's the first time Mr. Bakrac has actually got to one of the facts

9 of the case rather than completely irrelevant inconsistencies, but he may

10 have a point. There doesn't seem to be anything in the statement that

11 talks about the barrel and being delivered to the brother's house.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this reference in this statement

13 is rather brief, and --

14 JUDGE HUNT: It may be, but it was a fair enough thing to put to

15 the witness. That's what I'm putting to you. There is no reference in

16 the statement to what the witness has told us in Court.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, then I have to apologise. To me

18 it was clear that this is the reference.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it's certainly not clear to me.

20 You proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Before you do, there are different ways of

23 cross-examining on inconsistencies, but as a matter of ordinary human

24 experience, no court could ever expect a witness to say something in

25 exactly the same way in a statement as he does when he gives his

Page 3339

1 evidence. You would be rather suspicious if they did.

2 The inconsistencies, however, may be quite marked, but the

3 question then arises: Is the inconsistency in relation to something which

4 we have to decide?

5 Certainly if a witness has got a whole string of statements in his

6 evidence which are inconsistent with what he had told the OTP's

7 investigators, you might think that he's reckless or something like that.

8 But where his children were and whether he'd had coffee and that sort of

9 stuff doesn't seem, to me, to give us any idea as to whether or not this

10 man is telling the truth about what we are here to decide. We're not here

11 to decide whether he had coffee or whether he didn't have coffee or

12 whether he had it at one cafe or another. We're here to consider what

13 he's telling us about and that is the beatings and the killings inside the

14 KP Dom.

15 Now, if he's got inconsistencies about that, we would be far more

16 interested than we would about these what I would describe as quite

17 irrelevant details.

18 So I may suggest to you that you concentrate, if there are such

19 inconsistencies, that you concentrate on them. We will get along a lot

20 more quickly and have a lot less problems with the witness' answers.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, can we

22 have an explanation? I think it is necessary for me to explain

23 something.

24 The questions related to children and coffee are not put by way of

25 an inconsistency. The Prosecutor referred to the transcript of

Page 3340

1 Witness 33, and we accepted this, and the Prosecutor has dwelt on this

2 extensively, that Serb families sent their children out of Foca, expecting

3 what would happen to happen. So that is what the Defence wanted to do, to

4 point to the reasons why the witness' children were not there.

5 In addition to that, we have lots of information that by the Cafe

6 Bor, there was a Muslim barricade where the shooting actually started.

7 Then also the Defence has reason to believe - I will say this quite

8 clearly - that this witness took part in what happened at the barricade,

9 in the shooting, and that is why I put the questions related to the

10 children and to the barricade and the coffee, and I felt it necessary to

11 give this explanation to you as well.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I can only hope that you will get to that issue. If

13 you want to raise that issue about whether he was a combattant rather than

14 a civilian, you go to that, but let's get there, please. You can see

15 yourself that this witness is not easy to keep on the track. He doesn't

16 answer the questions. So let's keep to the relevant questions and see if

17 we can keep him on track on those.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Sir, we've already said this, so there is no reason for me not to

20 ask you that. Were you at the roadblock near the Cafe Bor in Donje Polje?

21 A. I say about myself that I was no political figure, that I was not

22 a member of any party, and even those extremists verified that and saw

23 that, and nevertheless, I thought now this is the end of me, like all the

24 others.

25 Q. I asked you a specific question. Were you at the roadblock near

Page 3341

1 Cafe Bor?

2 A. I was on no roadblock. I never took part in any meetings.

3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you said, sir, that you had seen

4 Mr. Maksimovic with Krnojelac in the KP Dom, towards the end of your

5 detention, that you saw them walking towards the furniture factory. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. I am telling the Honourable Court that I cannot exactly quote the

8 dates, but Maksimovic, Ostojic, Cancar --

9 Q. Sir --

10 A. Let me answer this question: -- were coming, and he was coming

11 out because nothing could happen in the prison compound without having to

12 do with the warden, Savo Todovic, Rasevic, and the others. In other

13 words, he was with him when that furniture was taken out. Our men loaded

14 it.

15 Q. Who was with him?

16 A. With him was the warden.

17 Q. Which warden?

18 A. It's common knowledge who the warden is.

19 Q. Tell us his name?

20 A. Milorad Krnojelac. Everything that went on in the camp --

21 Q. Sir --

22 A. No, no, no. I must repeat a hundred times, a hundred times. I

23 must repeat this. I told the Honourable Court yesterday everything that

24 goes into the compound goes through the administration, and therefore I do

25 not wish to answer any such provocations any more.

Page 3342

1 JUDGE HUNT: Look, sir, there was a very simple question. You

2 were asked to tell us his name. You gave his name. Now, there was

3 nothing that you needed to add to that. If you just answer the question,

4 we will get along a lot more quickly and you will do far better in your

5 evidence if you will stick to the questions and answer those alone.

6 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

7 A. I understand, thank you.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Sir, you saw Krnojelac with him, didn't you?

10 A. I did, yes.

11 Q. Now I shall read to you what you told the OTP in your first

12 statement of 1995. And for the interpreters, it is page 5, the first

13 statement, October 1995, document marked 138A and passage before -- one

14 passage, the penultimate passage, last one on that:

15 "I saw Maksimovic once in the KP Dom, towards the end of my

16 imprisonment, as he walked towards the furniture factory with several

17 other men, about whom I heard later that they were a delegation from

18 Serbia. I do not know what -- why were they -- why were they in the

19 prison."

20 Now, what is correct? Which one of your statements is correct?

21 A. When you say "delegation," before the Honourable Court, I never

22 once spoke about no delegation. I spoke about extremists. There was an

23 extremist group which came, and all that is true.

24 Q. Do you mean that the OTP simply did not take down your statement

25 correctly?

Page 3343

1 A. When I said -- when I gave my statement in Sarajevo, that I signed

2 it, just like when I was in the camp in Foca.

3 Q. This is not a statement from the public security centre in

4 Sarajevo. This is a statement that you gave to the OTP in October, 1995.

5 A. I mention it now, and I repeat, I spent two and a half years in

6 that camp, and now you want me to say there was so and so, and so and so.

7 Whilst I did see those people, those people who were even greater

8 extremists than those in the camp, and every visit had to do with the

9 warden and his team, and I don't want to repeat it any more.

10 Q. But is that part of the statement correct when you said that it

11 was towards the end of your imprisonment?

12 A. I said that the dates, I can't -- towards the end of my departure,

13 because towards the end of my departure, Zoran Sekulovic was the warden of

14 the camp.

15 Q. So it is true that it was towards the end of your imprisonment?

16 A. I say it was towards the end of my imprisonment, and towards the

17 end of my imprisonment Zoran Sekulovic was the camp warden. I repeat it

18 again. So this happened before that.

19 Q. When did you leave the prison?

20 A. I left the prison on the 10th of October, 1994.

21 Q. So did this, what you mentioned here, happen in 1994?

22 A. This, perhaps. I cannot remember the date, but I know that the

23 furniture factory started to operate shortly, not long -- it did not take

24 long for the furniture factory to start its operation, which means that

25 Zoran Sekulovic was not a warden then.

Page 3344

1 Q. Do you still stand by that you saw Krnojelac with Maksimovic, or

2 are you inferring -- are you making this inference because you say that

3 nothing could be done without the administration? Will you -- will you

4 please answer concretely? Did you see him with Maksimovic or was that

5 your conjecture because nothing could be done without the administrator?

6 A. I'm telling the truth to the Honourable Court. It happened, I

7 repeat, when Zoran Sekulovic - Zoran Pljevaljcic, is he Pljevaljcic? -

8 was not the warden. It happened in Krnojelac -- in Milorad Krnojelac's

9 time, who was the warden of the camp. And when Maksimovic turned up,

10 everything would run -- whenever Maksimovic appeared, everybody would run

11 out to greet him. Now, what it was about, I did not -- it didn't really

12 matter to me because I could only try to make myself scarce, to make

13 myself invisible in the yard. But I know it was in Krnojelac's time and I

14 am confident that he was there.

15 Q. So you did not see him; you are confident?

16 A. My today's conviction, that is. I am convicted today, which means

17 that I saw him and that it cannot be that I did not see him.

18 Q. Did you, in any of your previous statements to the OTP, mention

19 that you did some work on Milorad Krnojelac's house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who did you make this statement to?

22 A. All the statements that I gave, let me tell you, under a code

23 number.

24 Q. I don't understand. You made coded statements?

25 A. All the statements that I gave and to whom I gave those

Page 3345

1 statements, the Honourable Court has it.

2 Q. And you're claiming that in those statements you spoke about the

3 work that you did on Krnojelac's house, that it is in your statements?

4 A. Whether it is written down -- maybe it is not written down, but I

5 say that I worked there, before the Honourable Court.

6 Q. Does that mean that you did not read any one of those statements

7 nor were your statements read to you?

8 A. My statements, what I stated, were accessible to me, except when I

9 was in the camp in Sarajevo, not one was accessible to me.

10 Q. Then why this important detail about how you worked on Krnojelac's

11 house, rather, on Krnojelac's coffee shop, why is it that we don't find

12 that important detail in any one of your statements?

13 A. I repeat before the Honourable Court. My yesterday's testimony

14 which I made before the Honourable Court was that I had worked in a coffee

15 shop which is in the camp warden's house, that I worked in the shop to be

16 owned by Saja Sahimpasic. Before the Court I said it yesterday. If I

17 have to repeat it again, tell me.

18 Q. No, no.

19 JUDGE HUNT: He's not asking you whether you said it yesterday or

20 not. He's asking you: Did you tell the OTP's investigators? Is it in

21 your statement anywhere? Now, he's entitled to ask you that. And it's

22 not an answer by saying, "What I said in Court yesterday was true."

23 Now, please, do you say that you told the investigators about

24 having worked in Mr. Krnojelac's house? Now, you can answer that "Yes,"

25 or "No," or "I don't remember."

Page 3346

1 A. I've said it.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps I should move

3 on, because I think the answer is quite clear.

4 Q. Tell us, where is that Sahimpasic's shop that you tell us he took

5 over?

6 A. Saja Sahimpasic's shop is in front of the department store in

7 Foca. It is the only department store in Foca, and it is call Focanka.

8 Q. Yesterday, you told the Court how you had a transistor radio in

9 the KP Dom; is that correct?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. Did you have it throughout your detention?

12 A. The transistor was hidden so that if the guards were to find it,

13 we'd be beaten and killed, so that we kept hiding it.

14 Q. Did you have it throughout your detention?

15 A. No way.

16 Q. Does that mean that the guards found the transistor?

17 A. They found the transistor.

18 Q. Did they punish you because of that?

19 A. Jasmin Sudar was beaten, battered, and killed because allegedly he

20 had it. Who had said that he had it, I don't know, but he was beaten,

21 battered, and killed and disappeared.

22 Q. Did you mention him yesterday? Why didn't you mention this

23 incident yesterday?

24 A. Do you know how many of such incidents happened? Hundreds and

25 hundreds of them. I'd have to be a computer to really drag them out of my

Page 3347

1 head.

2 Q. But tell us, sir, was it a power- or battery-operated transistor?

3 A. It was battery operated.

4 Q. And how did you obtain batteries?

5 A. You ask how we obtain batteries. I mentioned before the

6 Honourable Court that it used to be the penitentiary reformatory before

7 the war, a Yugoslav one, so that there were still clothes left over,

8 transistors, batteries, and as I mentioned, there were also sheepskins for

9 officers, as we had to call them, and the like.

10 Q. Where was it left behind, in the storeroom or where?

11 A. The storerooms of the KP Dom, and they were wide open.

12 Q. And you could simply walk in and take whatever you needed?

13 A. I, who worked everywhere -- and that is why I was surprised

14 yesterday when I pointed with this stick to the Honourable Court, when I

15 showed -- when I pointed the canteen rather than the offices because I

16 didn't have my glasses. All of the locales which there were from the

17 furniture factory to its offices, to the canteen, to the canteen offices,

18 every -- I know where every detail is and how it is.

19 Q. Thank you. Which station were you tuned in on that radio?

20 A. The station that we listened to was Radio Sarajevo.

21 Q. And Radio Foca? No?

22 A. Radio Foca was listened to when it was accessible to me up there

23 at Brioni, that is, at Brioni farm, because up there there were several

24 Serbs who had been detained and worked up there, and they had the right to

25 listen to the Foca Radio, and we listened to it for a while. Afterwards

Page 3348












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Page 3349

1 it was prohibited.

2 Q. And Radio Sarajevo you could hear in the KP Dom?

3 A. Barely, just barely.

4 Q. And which station was it that you heard that they assigned various

5 business outlets to combattants?

6 A. Yes. I said before the Honourable Court that on a Serb station,

7 that is, Foca Radio, which existed before the war too, at the farm, which

8 is 3 kilometres away and which was also part of the camp, and I also

9 pointed out that the radio announcer -- and perhaps I did not explain it

10 with all the details, but he said that business outlets are granted in

11 Foca. The advantage is accorded to Serb combattants. And we know the

12 Serb combattants who had committed a sin against that people, that in the

13 early days they were the principal butchers and the greatest Vojvodas as

14 proven by the fact that in front of the department store, business outlets

15 are run by Chetnik Vojvodas who had escaped from Foca.

16 Q. And was it the same radio that you heard that Adnan Isanovic and

17 two or three more people had been killed?

18 A. The radio that we had in our rooms - I mentioned it yesterday

19 before the Honourable Court - that there was a woman of Serb origin who

20 reported, and Semso Tucakovic, a journalist, received those reports. And

21 everything that went on in Foca in those early days, we learned all about

22 that, about all the killings and everything, and that was not accessible

23 to us.

24 Q. And you heard it from Semso Tucakovic on the radio; is it?

25 A. Yes, on the transistor. He said who was his source and how he

Page 3350

1 came by that information. We learned that Serb extremists had captured

2 that individual and that that individual had fared like hundreds and

3 hundreds of our folk.

4 Q. You also said that the guards in the KP Dom told you about all the

5 ill-treatment and murders; is that correct?

6 A. I always stand by those, except not all. A couple of them.

7 Q. They would come to you and tell you who killed whom, who beat

8 whom, is that it?

9 A. I'm now saying before the Honourable Court how the lawyer

10 concerned is provoking my replies with his supposed great knowledge before

11 the Honourable Court. He's begun to provoke me.

12 Before this Honourable Court, I, in my yesterday's testimony,

13 wrote two or three names who told us about all the people who committed

14 misdeeds in that compound, and I don't want to repeat it again.

15 Q. I did not provoke you. You've just told us that they informed --

16 that they had informed you. That was my question.

17 A. My answer is yes, and I repeated it yesterday and today, and I

18 don't know how many times I'll have to repeat it again.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you know a guard called Risto Ivanovic?

20 A. I know him very well.

21 Q. And what kind of a guard was he?

22 A. Well, I -- it is embarrassing for me to say that. That is, it is

23 not embarrassing to tell before the Honourable Court, but these details -

24 and I'm speaking from my point of view, to tell you - had I known

25 yesterday that you would lay your hands on those men, I wouldn't answer

Page 3351

1 that, because now you ask me about a man who was -- I can't explain

2 anything to you, because, had they all been the same, I wouldn't be

3 sitting here today. That is my answer.

4 JUDGE HUNT: The question was what sort of a guard was he. Can

5 you not answer that question?

6 A. I say to the Honourable Court, and I repeat: If I say here what

7 kind of a man was he -- I've just said, had they all been the same, we

8 would have disappeared, but I am referring to him because he's asking me

9 about him. That is my answer, if he got it.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Is it your attitude, then -- and I'm not criticising

11 you for it, I just want to know, is it your attitude, then, that you will

12 not discuss any guard who is named in court? Is that so?

13 A. I dare not speak about people of goodwill, and who were -- who, as

14 our folk say, who had committed no sin.

15 JUDGE HUNT: If the name had been written down on a piece of

16 paper, would you be prepared to explain what sort of a guard he was, so

17 that the name was not revealed in public?

18 A. I don't know, but as far as -- as I know about law, I can write

19 the name down for the Honourable Court but not for the lawyer. The lawyer

20 should not be told that because I know that extremist groups still wield

21 power there.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, sir, if that is your attitude, it's no use

23 proceeding with this particular type of inquiry because you can't tell us

24 anything that the Defence counsel is not also told.

25 There you are, Mr. Bakrac. I think you should get on to some

Page 3352

1 other issue.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I

3 agree. I will move on.

4 Q. Were there any Serbs in the KP Dom when you arrived? Did you find

5 them there when you arrived, people who had been imprisoned there before

6 the war conflict, who had been convicts serving their terms?

7 A. There were a few of them. I don't know how it happened that they

8 had been left behind.

9 Q. Thank you. And where were those persons kept?

10 A. Those persons were up at the farm, and then later on, some of them

11 came down to the camp, but they had a room of their own downstairs on the

12 ground floor. Allegedly those told them to leave, to go, but they seemed

13 reluctant. They said, "Well, I will, I won't," and so I suppose they were

14 telling them to go to the front line.

15 Q. Yesterday, you said that the guard had told you that if somebody

16 saw you talking to him without him beating you, that he'd be immediately

17 sent to the front line. Is that it?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Do you still go by this or can you tell us which guard told you

20 that?

21 A. Once again, before the Honourable Court, I don't know if I'm all

22 that difficult to understand but I wrote this for the Honourable Court.

23 If you didn't remember that name, then I'm not going to write it today

24 again. So you forgot his name? Well, I'm glad you did.

25 Q. Well, perhaps my memory is not as good as yours but you wrote down

Page 3353

1 two names yesterday.

2 A. Well, then, I'm saying -- I apologise to the Honourable Court that

3 I have to repeat it again, so you non-stop -- you keep asking me the same

4 questions time and time again. So you want me again -- well, I will write

5 them but only for the Honourable Court. I don't want you to get them.

6 Q. I'm asking you, was it both of them or just one of them?

7 JUDGE HUNT: Show the witness Exhibit P431, would you? May I

8 explain this to you, sir? You are being cross-examined, and it is

9 necessary for the purposes of cross-examination to direct your attention

10 to the evidence you gave. You are not being asked simply to repeat

11 things. You are being asked questions about what you said yesterday. So

12 it's no use you repeatedly complaining that you are being asked to say the

13 same thing time and again. Now, is that 431, is it?

14 If you could identify on that document which one you are now being

15 asked about?

16 A. Number 119.

17 JUDGE HUNT: I haven't seen the document. Has it got numbers on

18 it? Does it? Are these the numbers from the list, are they? Yes,

19 right.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Will you please tell us when did he tell you that?

22 A. I am saying that I cannot -- that I do not remember dates but he

23 repeated it to me over and over again, that one and the other one on the

24 list, but this one more often.

25 Q. So the other one who is on the list also told you that?

Page 3354

1 A. Well, yes, of course, naturally.

2 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you for the date, but could you roughly,

3 between -- as of the time when you got to the KP Dom, when roughly, how

4 much later did he tell you that? Can you tell us that, roughly?

5 A. Well, perhaps a few months later.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. Yesterday, you said that you had worked -- not of

7 our own free will. Did all the other prisoners have to follow orders and

8 work under such orders?

9 A. All that I said yesterday I repeat today, so you want me to answer

10 this too? I personally was persecuted and made to work and I remember how

11 I was lying down, I couldn't work any longer from exhaustion, and Savo

12 Todovic kicked me with his feet to make me go to work. I am speaking

13 about other people, younger people, who could be my sons, that they wailed

14 for a piece of bread, for a crust of bread. That is people were at the

15 end of their tether.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Just stop. You are repeating what you said yesterday

17 but you are not answering the question. The question was: Did all the

18 other prisoners have to follow orders and work under such orders? Now, we

19 don't want to hear about your own experiences again. Just answer that

20 question, please.

21 A. This question that was put to me, there was one period when the

22 young men thought, "Well, let's go to work," and that was voluntary,

23 whereas all the other periods when people were made to go and work in the

24 mine and made to work outside, people tried to hide away, but they

25 couldn't help it because if you did not carry out orders, you were done

Page 3355

1 for. So that's my answer.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Thank you, sir. In which period did you work in the mine?

4 A. Let me answer. Again I don't know the date. But I worked for

5 three to four days. I had a wound on my leg. The assumption was that it

6 was cancer. I was crying, begging every day, and I even asked the Red

7 Cross about this but this was almost when I was about to leave, so they

8 freed me from that obligation. But then immediately after that, they

9 kicked me into the woods to chop wood.

10 Q. Sir, sir -- I hope the Honourable Judges won't mind. May I

11 interrupt the witness to make things as short as possible? I just asked

12 the witness when he was taken there to work. So is this the -- towards

13 the end of 1994, because you said that that was before your detention

14 ended.

15 A. Krnojelac was still warden.

16 Q. I'm not asking you who the warden was.

17 A. I cannot remember because Sekulovic, Zoran Sekulovic was warden

18 towards the end of 1994, so I think you are --

19 JUDGE HUNT: Stop. I was stopping you, Mr. Bakrac, because the

20 translation was still coming through, well and truly. That's not an

21 answer to the question. The question was: Was it towards the end of

22 1994, because you said it was before your detention ended. Now, are you

23 able to say yes or no to that?

24 A. Work in the mine was not a month or two before I was released.

25 Perhaps it was earlier than that.

Page 3356

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. How much earlier, if you may recall?

3 A. I think it was a few months.

4 Q. So that is in 1994?

5 A. Again, I'm saying before this Court that I do not remember dates

6 because of all the suffering I've been through. These dates were not that

7 important to me.

8 Q. Do you know when Sekulovic replaced Krnojelac?

9 A. I think a few months before the exchange, before the exchange of

10 that group of 53 inmates, a few months.

11 Q. What does that mean, a few months, approximately? Can you tell

12 me?

13 A. Well, a few, I don't know exactly how many.

14 Q. Was it in 1994?

15 A. Well, towards the end, towards the end. That's when he replaced

16 him, when Sekulovic replaced Krnojelac.

17 Q. Towards the end of what?

18 A. Before we were released. I can't say now, I mean --

19 Q. If I tell you, sir, that he replaced Krnojelac one year and four

20 months before that, do you allow for that possibility?

21 A. I allow for anything that you say, because all the dates you know

22 are better than what I know, in terms of dates.

23 Q. Thank you. You said that you worked on felling trees and loading

24 wood. Where was that wood being taken away?

25 A. We were felling trees and the wood was taken to the KP Dom camp,

Page 3357

1 and also to some of the guards in the camp.

2 Q. Did you have furnaces in the living rooms at the KP Dom?

3 A. I can't remember the date. As for the furnaces, as for the

4 furnaces, we got them through the Red Cross sometimes toward the end of

5 that winter perhaps. All of it was so long. The Red Cross tried and

6 tried and tried, and they finally allowed that, but with great

7 difficulty.

8 Q. Were these furnaces operating?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Yesterday, you mentioned that the Red Cross came to the KP Dom.

11 When did the Red Cross come to the KP Dom?

12 A. The Red Cross tried at the beginning of the war to get into the

13 KP Dom; however, the extremist groups said that nothing international

14 suited them. So the Red Cross came for the first time six months later.

15 It is only six months later that they managed to get into the camp.

16 Q. Six months after you were detained?

17 A. I keep telling you, I'm never very accurate, I mean, not even in

18 terms of years, but I know it's six months. It's very difficult for me to

19 communicate this way.

20 Q. You said yesterday that the members of the Red Cross could not see

21 that you were exhausted.

22 A. I said yesterday that they could not see that they were

23 exhausted? Well, they were surprised when they saw us. They were

24 surprised to see how exhausted we were.

25 Q. Did you address them? Did you say that you were hungry? Is that

Page 3358

1 what you said?

2 A. I repeat once again before this Honourable Court what I kept

3 repeating yesterday as well. The people who spoke to the Red Cross about

4 this and that and the other thing, about all these problems that were in

5 the camp, these people would go missing.

6 Q. Did you talk about these problems?

7 A. Towards the end, before being released from the camp, we said that

8 they were hiding our people, that we didn't know what to do any more, that

9 we were at our wits end and also that our bodies were crumbling. That's

10 personally what I said too, and I was not killed nevertheless. And I can

11 thank this girl from Trebinje, this interpreter who was there, but she was

12 crying, although she was a Serb.

13 Q. Was this six months after your detention?

14 A. This was towards the end.

15 Q. The end of your detention?

16 A. The end of my detention.

17 Q. Yesterday, you spoke of an incident when a Vojvoda entered the

18 KP Dom and slapped Rasim in the face. That's what you said. And then you

19 said to him to stop. Did I understand you correctly?

20 A. You did understand me correctly and that is the way it was.

21 Q. And you dared tell a Serb Vojvoda to stop slapping Rasim?

22 A. Let me tell you this: These Serb Vojvodas, when you would stand

23 with them, I mean, those whom you knew, you would say that they were good

24 men, but those Vojvodas, what they did, what they torched, what they

25 killed, that is inconceivable.

Page 3359












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Page 3360

1 I know that Vojvoda from the civilian days, so I took the liberty

2 of asking him to do that, no matter what happened to me.

3 Q. Since you knew him from the civilian times, can you tell us who he

4 was?

5 A. There were two brothers from Montenegro. One -- I mean, both

6 worked at the construction company. They came to (redacted) a

7 countless number of times, I mean, this enterprise where I worked, that

8 is. So I can't. I can't say with 100 per cent certainty what their

9 surname was. I knew it for a while, but I forgot.

10 Q. Yesterday, you spoke of another incident when military persons

11 entered the KP Dom and you saw them beating detainees.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you ever state that somewhere else before?

14 A. Believe me, I can't remember.

15 Q. Can you tell us where this incident occurred?

16 A. This incident occurred within the camp compound, inside, because

17 there were two gates sealing off the compound.

18 Q. In which part of the compound?

19 A. In front of the canteen where people went to eat.

20 Q. How many soldiers were there?

21 A. A few soldiers. I don't know the exact number now. You keep

22 saying "soldiers," but it's extremists.

23 Q. Or Chetniks. Do you want me to put that way?

24 A. Chetniks and extremists is the same thing.

25 Q. Thank you. Do you know who they hit then?

Page 3361

1 A. Believe me, I was pretty far away in the same yard, and I tried to

2 make myself invisible because I knew that they would take people out and

3 kill them. We tried to make ourselves invisible. We hid in some kind of

4 basement there of the factory.

5 Q. Does that mean that you hid, that you did not see this incident?

6 A. I saw the beginning of the incident, because what would have made

7 me hide had I not seen the beginning of the incident?

8 Q. So who did they hit at the beginning of this incident?

9 A. Again, I'm telling you I was pretty far away. I mean, I saw

10 Dr. Berberkic, sort of his silhouette, but I cannot say with 100 per cent

11 certainty before this Court that it was him. It looked like a silhouette,

12 and then the rest.

13 Q. You say that you escaped to a basement. Where was this basement?

14 A. The basement of the furniture factory, the premises down there. I

15 mean -- well, ground floor.

16 Q. Tell me, sir. What were the hygienic conditions at the KP Dom

17 like?

18 A. The hygienic conditions at the KP Dom were excellent, what we did,

19 that is.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. Did you have medical care at the KP Dom?

21 A. At the KP Dom, the only medical care came from a medical

22 technician. I am convinced that he did not know what the name of various

23 pills was let alone work as a physician.

24 Q. Do you know that this medical technician has had a pharmacy of his

25 own for the past ten years and even more than that?

Page 3362

1 A. You mean in town?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. No way. Perhaps he has a pharmacy now, but when I was there, no

4 way. I mean, our people say -- our people put it this way: He's the kind

5 of person who would steal everything, all the medicines he had at the

6 KP Dom, and then open the pharmacy of your own. You can do all sorts of

7 things to people.

8 Q. Tell me, sir, did physicians from the medical centre in Foca come

9 to the KP Dom?

10 A. Medical care, well, it appeared to be so, but let me explain how

11 they worked. A young man's ulcer perforated and this young man had to be

12 transferred to hospital. No way. No way. The young man died. That is

13 the kind of medical care we had.

14 Q. Did this young man die in his room?

15 A. In the camp.

16 Q. So he died in the room in the prison camp?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. As a consequence of his ulcer?

19 A. Yes, as a consequence of his ulcer.

20 Q. Was he in your room?

21 A. No, he was not in my room.

22 Q. How can you be sure then that he was not taken to hospital?

23 A. He was moaning and moaning and begging to be taken to hospital,

24 but they did not take him to hospital and he died. He was saying that his

25 ulcer had perforated, but these were not people who would speak English or

Page 3363

1 French or some other language like that that he did not understand them.

2 Q. There were witnesses here, sir, who said that this person was

3 taken to hospital and that he died in hospital. I'm asking you: Are you

4 sure that he died in the KP Dom?

5 A. I'm saying that he moaned and that he was begging. Well, maybe

6 they took him to the hospital when he was dead. However, when it actually

7 happened to him, no way.

8 Q. Did you hear his moans?

9 A. We did. We -- we did hear it because everything is nearby. You

10 can hear all these moans. Everything is there. Nothing is far away.

11 Q. Which room was he in?

12 A. Believe me, I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know in which part of prison?

14 A. I think he was in one of those first rooms, I think. I think.

15 These were the beginnings, so when I saw everything that was going on -- I

16 mean, it is strange to me nowadays that you put this question to me.

17 Those were the beginnings then. It is strange to me that you ask me

18 whether doctors came. They did come, yes, when the Red Cross was there,

19 so then that it would seem that everything was fine. So I find this

20 question strange. And so many people are missing.

21 Q. Yesterday you spoke of an incident when a person escaped. I'm

22 just checking whether we can mention the name of this person. Ekrim

23 Zekovic. I think we can mention the name.

24 Did you see Ekrim Zekovic in the compound?

25 A. I repeated that yesterday. I saw him when he was caught and

Page 3364

1 brought to the camp.

2 Q. In your statement to the OTP, you said -- I don't have to read all

3 of it but it relates to the Zekovic incident: "The next night, the

4 fugitive seemed to have been found. In the morning, we were informed

5 about this."

6 And you were in an isolation cell?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. So here you say that you were told that it seemed that the

9 fugitive had been found and that you were informed about this.

10 A. When he was caught, when this particular person was caught, and

11 before that, that same night, we were told, I mean, after all the beatings

12 and battery, that next day you would be shot dead if he's not found. When

13 he was found, again I'm telling you, the guards who were in the camp, not

14 all of them, one came and said, "You won't be shot dead. He's been

15 found."

16 Q. And you remained in an isolation cell for another 12 days?

17 A. I remained in the isolation cell. I'm including that night as

18 well.

19 Q. That means that you did not see Ekrem Zekovic?

20 A. When everybody was taken out of all the rooms, we were taken out

21 of the isolation cells as well. There were some others there too. We

22 were all taken out into the yard.

23 Q. So this is 12 days later when you did your time in the isolation

24 cell?

25 A. No, no. It was not after 12 days. It was on the next day. Again

Page 3365

1 I'm telling you I cannot say whether it was yesterday or the day before

2 yesterday. At any rate, within those two or three days.

3 Q. You said that they were boasting as to how humane they were. Were

4 there any visible wounds on Ekrem Zekovic?

5 A. There was nothing on his head.

6 Q. Did he have any clothes?

7 A. Well, this person can talk about the chains and how he was hit and

8 everything. Let that person talk about it himself. But on the head you

9 couldn't see anything, and I sort of thought, well, I got into more

10 trouble than he did, but he was beaten more in the lower part than I was.

11 Q. So when you saw him -- when you saw him, you could not notice

12 anything, whether he had been beaten or not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Why did you not say anywhere, in any one of your statements - and

15 you gave four statements - that Todovic addressed Krnojelac and that he

16 kept nodding and confirming that when he was making this speech?

17 A. Had I not said that, how come you would be telling me that now?

18 Or is this your opinion that I was supposed to have said it?

19 JUDGE HUNT: Look, sir, you are not helping yourself at all. In

20 fact, you are going a long way to destroying any value that your evidence

21 can have. You are asked a very simple question: Did you tell the OTP

22 investigators about this incident where Mr. Krnojelac nodded as

23 Mr. Todovic addressed the prisoners?

24 A. I said that to the investigators.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

Page 3366

1 Q. But they didn't write it down?

2 A. I don't know why.

3 Q. Thank you, sir. Also, you said that all preparations for speeches

4 came from the administration. How come you know that?

5 A. I was a businessman for a long time, but even if I had been

6 nothing, everything that happens within a firm, everything comes from the

7 administration. Whatever happened in the camp came from the

8 administration of the camp. Any man would know that. It's absurd to

9 discuss this.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, when this incident with Zekovic

11 occurred, were you in the same room as he was?

12 A. At the time of this incident, we were next door to one another in

13 the same hall.

14 Q. Which room was this, which number?

15 A. Believe me, numbers, no, no. This was on the first floor,

16 upstairs, that room, and then there was this other room, of those who were

17 sort of isolated, those they didn't want to show to the Red Cross.

18 Q. Was this a working room, the one they didn't want to show the Red

19 Cross?

20 A. All rooms -- I mean, this room and that room, and all the rooms.

21 I mean, there were lists, such and such and such a person would go to

22 room -- so persons from all rooms had to go and work. So it's not that

23 one was a working room and another one was not a working room. All of

24 this was done on orders.

25 Q. And these persons that they were hiding from the International Red

Page 3367

1 Cross, they were in the left part of the building when you look from the

2 direction of the administration building?

3 A. They were in the building, in the same building, but in a separate

4 room, to the right. To the right is where we were, lots of us. Actually,

5 when you enter on the left, then they were on the right, in a smaller

6 room. I don't know how many they were.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I think it would be easier if I asked

8 the usher to help to give the witness this chart of the KP Dom so that he

9 can show us in which room he was and in which room Zekovic was and in

10 which room those persons that they were hiding from the International Red

11 Cross were.

12 A. What does this matter? I have no idea. This is the first

13 building. This is the second building, number 2. We were in this

14 building. This is where the ground floor was, and then there was

15 upstairs. Then the ground floor, and then there were two shorter rooms

16 and two longer rooms -- I mean, not shorter and longer but bigger and

17 smaller. And then they were -- I mean when we go upstairs, here, here,

18 somewhere around here. Now, I don't know exactly. Here, here. They were

19 near us.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the transcript, the

21 witness is indicating building A on the left, the first floor, and the

22 last floor in the same building. Concerning those persons, if I

23 understood things correctly, the witness referred to persons that were

24 being hidden from the International Red Cross.

25 A. These persons had a separate room. These persons had a separate

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1 room, the ones who were being hidden from the Red Cross.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that he was necessarily pointing to the

3 top floor. He said "upstairs." But anyway, we will resume on this

4 subject, no doubt, tomorrow morning.

5 We are very grateful to the court personnel for sitting on with us

6 today so that we can at least get some hours in.

7 We will adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.30 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

10 February, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.