Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3726

1 Tuesday, 13 March 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor

8 versus Milorad Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not going to apologise for being late because

10 that clock is fast, but I suppose it's the one by which we should operate.

11 Yes, Ms. Kuo -- I'm sorry, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, yes.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Good morning, Your Honour. Thank you.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

16 Q. Good morning, sir.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. Yesterday you told us that you saw the two villages of Paunci --

19 the two villages of Paunci and Filipovici burning, and can you tell us

20 when? Do you recall when that happened, the date?

21 A. That happened towards the end of April 1992. It could have been

22 the 25th or the 26th of April.

23 Q. And besides the houses being burned, did you see persons being

24 killed?

25 A. I saw the soldiers taking the military buildings and facilities in

Page 3727

1 Filipovici, and when they lined up a group of people within the military

2 compound there I saw that they singled out a few of them, four or five, I

3 think. After that I heard shots. I saw some buses that were there, seems

4 to me that there were two. There was a military transporter as well. And

5 then these buses set out towards Foca.

6 In the village of Gornji Paunovci before that, I saw soldiers who

7 were forcing a woman towards the Drina River, and after that a soldier

8 shot that woman from a rifle.

9 Q. And yesterday you also mentioned that the village of Josanica --

10 actually, the two villages of Josanica were attacked as well. When did

11 this happen?

12 A. That happened a day later. I was watching as the buses full of

13 soldiers were coming into Josanica. I counted about 12 trucks then, I

14 believe. These were military trucks that had benches on the side where

15 there could -- they could seat about 15 soldiers, so it could have been

16 about 300 soldiers altogether. They started shooting all over the

17 village, and I saw the first houses that belonged to Muslims, Bosniaks,

18 being torched. These are houses at the entrance into Josanica. I know

19 exactly which families they belonged to.

20 Q. What about the other houses where Muslims were living, were they

21 destroyed or torched as well on that day?

22 A. I think that the vast majority of the houses in the village of

23 Josanica were burned down. Perhaps one or two have remained unburned.

24 After that, they attacked the village of Ribari - that's the place where

25 my house is - and all the houses in that village were torched. I saw my

Page 3728

1 own house burning, and I saw soldiers in uniform approaching my house,

2 entering it, torching it.

3 Q. Were Serb houses burnt down or damaged in any way?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were you wounded at one point in time?

6 A. I was wounded on a hillock above the village of Karadzici on the

7 19th of April, when the shelling started. I was wounded by a shrapnel

8 coming from a shell that had fallen near me. I was wounded in both legs,

9 in the knee area.

10 Q. What were you doing when you were wounded? You said you were on a

11 hill. What were you doing there?

12 A. I was trying to find my brother and my brother-in-law, that is to

13 say, my wife's brother. When the shelling started, I was in a weekend

14 cottage where there were refugees, my wife, children, my mother, and other

15 women and children and old people from the village. When the shelling

16 started, I had set out for that hillock, looking for the two of them.

17 Q. After being wounded, what did you do?

18 A. I tried to go down towards that village, that is to say, the

19 weekend cottage where my wife and children were. However, I didn't manage

20 to do so. Halil Merkez was with me, an elderly man. He was wounded, but

21 his wounds were less serious. He tried to drag me down to that weekend

22 cottage on a tree branch. However, he didn't manage to. So then I

23 crawled to a stream by myself, and I hid in the bushes there or, rather,

24 in a pile of leaves. There were oak trees there, and then I found oak

25 leaves and covered myself with them.

Page 3729

1 Q. Were you arrested at a point in time on that day?

2 A. Not on that day. Two of my sisters-in-law came to get me, and

3 they brought me down to that weekend cottage. We spent the night at the

4 weekend cottage. In the morning, the Chetniks came to the door and

5 arrested me. So that was the 30th of April, 1992.

6 Q. You said the Chetniks arrested you. Did you know them? Could you

7 say who arrested you, neighbours or soldiers from other areas?

8 A. All the soldiers that entered the weekend cottage were my

9 neighbours, most of them. I knew them. Only one of them was not from

10 Bosnia. Judging by his accent, by the way he spoke, I came to the

11 conclusion that he was from Serbia. I knew all the rest from before, and

12 I had even treated some of them, as a doctor, while they were in

13 hospital.

14 Q. Were you the only person arrested on this occasion?

15 A. No. Halil Merkez was also arrested with me. Later on, I found

16 out that my wife's brother had been arrested too, my brother-in-law, as

17 well as a friend of his.

18 Q. Can you tell us the name of your wife's brother?

19 A. Nedzad Delic.

20 Q. And the other gentleman that was arrested somewhat later, what was

21 his name?

22 A. Adnan Dzaferspahic is the name of the other young man.

23 Q. These people, these soldiers that arrested you, did they tell you

24 why you were arrested?

25 A. At first, they were very harsh. The soldier from Serbia cocked

Page 3730

1 his rifle. It was a PAP rifle. He put a bullet into his rifle. I lay

2 immobile on a couch. He pointed the rifle at my stomach, putting the tip

3 of the rifle actually against my stomach, and asked me whether I had any

4 weapons, and he said if he found any weapons in the house, he would kill

5 everyone. He saw my doctor's bag that was there, and then he said things

6 like -- that I had come to treat balijas there, that he'd kill me,

7 whatever.

8 I think that Marko Matovic, a soldier I knew well, commanded this

9 attack. I came to the conclusion that he commanded this attack because he

10 looked somewhat different. He had a beret, an olive-green/grey uniform

11 and also a Serbian flag on the left-hand side of his cap. They did not

12 tell me why they were arresting me, what the reason for my arrest was.

13 Q. Where were you taken?

14 A. I was taken to hospital, to the Foca hospital.

15 Q. And Mr. Merkez, was he also taken there?

16 A. He was too, except we were taken in different cars.

17 Q. How long did you stay at the hospital?

18 A. I stayed until the 21st of May, 1992.

19 Q. During this time period, were you treated normally as a patient?

20 A. I lay at the same ward where I had worked before that, surgery,

21 that is. The anaesthesiologist was a Bosniak lady, Adina Spahic. She

22 told me one morning that I had to have surgery performed on me. I was

23 immobile, and I had to have a nerve operated, and I agreed. I said that I

24 trusted them and that I agreed. So I was operated on two days after I was

25 brought to hospital.

Page 3731

1 Q. You said that you stayed there until the 21st of May, 1992. Where

2 were you taken afterwards? On that day, where were you taken?

3 A. After that, they took me to the KP Dom in Foca.

4 Q. Had you recovered already from your wounds by that time?

5 A. No, no. I could not walk. I couldn't stand on my feet; I had to

6 use crutches. Some additional examinations had to be carried out;

7 however, this was not possible at the Foca hospital then. I was

8 transferred -- or rather, I was supposed to be transferred to the

9 rehabilitation recuperation ward, but the head of this ward did not agree

10 to admit me.

11 Q. Did Mr. Merkez stay as long in the hospital, or was he taken away

12 earlier than you?

13 A. He was taken to the hospital -- no, I'm sorry, the KP Dom

14 earlier. When I arrived there, I already found him in the room.

15 Q. Who took you to the KP Dom?

16 A. Two soldiers of the so-called special police, as they had

17 introduced themselves. They were wearing military uniforms. One of them

18 was Slavisa Jovic, I know him; and the other one is Maidov, his nickname

19 is Zeco. I also knew him from before.

20 Q. You said a special police. Do you mean military police or any

21 other body?

22 A. They introduced themselves. They said, "We're the special

23 military police, and we've come to take you to the KP Dom." They said

24 that they had orders to do that.

25 Q. Did they indicate who gave them the orders to do that?

Page 3732

1 A. I asked them directly, "Who gave you these orders?" They said

2 that they could not tell, that they had to do it, though.

3 Q. How long did you stay at the KP Dom?

4 A. I stayed for a total of 479 days.

5 Q. And what date, on what date did you leave? Do you recall the

6 date?

7 A. I left the KP Dom on the 12th of August, 1993, in the afternoon.

8 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, who received you?

9 A. Slavko Koroman was at the gate then. I had known him from before.

10 He allowed me to bring in the things I had had with me. We even talked.

11 He asked me whether I had weapons, whether I had a pistol; however, he did

12 not beat me. He was correct.

13 Q. Did he tell you why you were taken to the KP Dom and how long you

14 would stay?

15 A. He didn't say anything. I didn't ask him anything, either. I

16 didn't ask him how long I'd stay or anything like that. At any rate, he

17 didn't tell me.

18 Q. What was he wearing when he [sic] arrived, what kind of clothes?

19 A. I think he wore the kind of uniform that was worn by the former

20 policemen in the KP Dom. That was a blue uniform, a light blue uniform.

21 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, were soldiers around? Did you see

22 any soldiers in front of the KP Dom or in the compound?

23 A. Then I did not see any soldiers within the compound of the KP Dom.

24 At the reception office I saw some men who were probably guards. They

25 wore olive-green/gray uniforms and also light blue uniforms.

Page 3733

1 Q. Were you registered when you arrived at the KP Dom? I mean, were

2 your particulars taken down?

3 A. My name is not on a single list. I was never registered by any

4 organisation or any service.

5 Q. Where were you taken within the KP Dom?

6 A. I was taken to Room 16.

7 Q. And in which part of the building is it?

8 A. That room is within the prison compound, in the central part. It

9 is on the ground floor. The windows of this room face the administration

10 building. After the few steps at the entrance, one enters this room on

11 the left.

12 Q. Yes, thank you. How long did you stay in Room 16? Approximately,

13 we do not need the exact date.

14 A. Perhaps about six months, but I can't remember exactly.

15 Q. Do you recall to which other rooms you were taken while you were

16 detained?

17 A. I was in Room 18, which is just above Room 16. I was on the

18 second floor in the right-hand block in a room there, I don't know the

19 number of that room; and on the second floor in the left-hand block, but

20 again, I can't remember the number of that room either.

21 Q. When you say the second floor, how do you count? Do you count the

22 ground floor as separate, or is the ground floor the first floor? Maybe

23 I -- maybe we'll use a photo.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, do you use the European or American style? I

25 think that's probably the real issue.

Page 3734












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3735


2 JUDGE HUNT: Is the ground floor the first floor, or is the next

3 floor up the first floor?

4 A. I don't know whether in Europe the ground floor is the first floor

5 or not, but, I mean, where I come from the ground floor is the ground

6 floor. So I was on the first floor, speaking in European terms, on the

7 first floor in the left-hand block and on the first floor in the

8 right-hand block. In American terms, this would be the second floor,

9 then, I imagine.


11 Q. Yes, thank you. When you arrived in Room 16, were there already

12 detainees there? You already mentioned Mr. Merkez. Was he in Room 16

13 together with other detainees already?

14 A. Yes, he was in Room 16. I found about 30 detainees there. I knew

15 many of them personally. I didn't know others, though. Some I had seen

16 for the first time, but all of them were Muslims, Bosniaks.

17 Q. Were others brought to your room, Room 16, after your arrival?

18 A. Yes. I remember that most of the detainees in Room 16 were -- the

19 largest number was 77, actually.

20 Q. You said that they were all Muslims. The age of these detainees,

21 from which age to which did it vary?

22 A. The range was very big. I think the youngest one was about 15 or

23 16. Fifteen, 15, actually, a young boy from Miljevina. And the oldest

24 one in my room, in Room 16, was Hamdija Hadzimuratovic, I think. He was

25 almost 70, I think.

Page 3736

1 Q. Were doctors or other medical staff among the detainees in

2 Room 16? And if you look at the list before you, tell us names. Please

3 look at the list and use code numbers if you find someone from the list.

4 A. As for medical staff in Room 16, there was detainee FWS-76, then

5 detainee Aziz Torlak, who had been transferred from the neighbouring room

6 to my room. He was a doctor. Also, there was a nurse, a male nurse. We

7 called him Zibac. He had worked in the hospital with me. I can't

8 remember whether there were any other male nurses with me at that point in

9 time in Room 16, but I'm sure about these two.

10 Q. And later on? Do you recall any other medical person that you

11 were detained with later on?

12 A. Later, when I was transferred to another room, I saw detainee

13 FWS-111, and for a while we were in the same room. I also met a dentist,

14 Dr. Said, who had worked in the KP Dom before the war. I met Emir Mandzo,

15 whom they had brought to Room 16 from work. And they told me that

16 Dr. Asima Pilav was in the KP Dom with her family before that and that

17 Dr. Spahic Kasim had spent a night there as well.

18 Q. Yes. Thank you. And were sick people among you? Do you recall

19 any sick people? I'm not talking about people being beaten in the KP Dom

20 or receiving injuries in the KP Dom. I'm speaking about sick people,

21 other sick people.

22 A. There were a lot of old, sick people, even in Room 16 where I

23 was. I remember Muradif Konjo, for example, an elderly man. He was over

24 60 years old. He had high blood pressure. I remember detainee FWS-104,

25 also an elderly person. He was sick. I remember Abid Sahovic, a detainee

Page 3737

1 who was a retired person as well. He had problems with his liver,

2 bleedings, things like that.

3 In other rooms there were other detainees who were old and in

4 pretty bad shape and who needed medical care. For example, detainee

5 FWS-172, who had worked in the hospital and who was quite sick. He was

6 just about to retire, actually. Then detainee FWS-182, who had problems

7 with his stomach, with an ulcer.

8 Q. Do you recall any detainee who had an injury or disease in his

9 face so that he could not eat? Do you recall any person?

10 A. Yes. I remember that detainee. He was in my room. His name is

11 Ramiz Dzano. They called him Kengo. His face had been injured. He was a

12 neighbour of mine. I had known him from before. His face was wounded by

13 a shell. And that's what he told me too. He told me he was wounded by a

14 shell. He also said to me that he had been wounded in the town of Foca,

15 that he was taken to hospital and that from the hospital he was brought to

16 the KP Dom. He could not eat. His lips were cut up. He had injuries in

17 his mouth, so he could only drink water through a straw.

18 Q. Did you see any detainees in your room or in other rooms that had

19 been involved in a traffic accident before the war? Do you recall

20 anyone?

21 A. Yes, I remember. I think it's the Dzozo brothers from Gorazde.

22 They were in my room. There were two other men together with them in my

23 room. I can't remember now, but I know that those two brothers are called

24 Dzozo. They had been injured in a car accident. They skidded off the

25 road into a ditch and then we were transferred to a hospital and then from

Page 3738

1 the hospital they were transferred to the KP Dom.

2 These were light injuries, except for the fact that one of the

3 Djozo brothers had problems with his jaw and he could not chew his food.

4 Q. These detainees that you just mentioned and that were sick, did

5 they receive medical treatment while in the KP Dom?

6 A. I think this question is very important and very complex, I would

7 say. Officially, there was a male nurse supposed to be in charge of us,

8 and his name was Gojko Jokanovic. He was a retired employee of the KP

9 Dom, a male nurse. He had been brought from Montenegro to work there. He

10 was in charge of us; that's what he had told me. However, I believe that

11 although he wished to help us and he knew most of the prisoners, he didn't

12 do their openly -- he didn't dare do that openly. He was afraid to, and

13 he wasn't allowed to. I discussed this with him several times, and so did

14 other inmates, and what he told us was that he could have problems if he

15 helped us because the administration did not allow him to help us.

16 Of course, we made do in various ways. There were so-called

17 medical examinations, medical checkups for which we applied. Mostly us

18 doctors and nurses and medical technicians applied for them as well as

19 some other prisoners. And when we would come to the infirmary, we would

20 steal medicines and other material from Gojko. Sometimes he would notice;

21 sometimes he wouldn't. And I think that in a conversation we had,

22 Dr. Torlak, myself, and others, we had agreed to save some medication for

23 emergencies, especially for prisoner FWS-146 who had a bad asthma and

24 couldn't live without medication.

25 Q. You said that Gojko Jokanovic told you that he was not allowed by

Page 3739

1 the administration to actually help you more than he would like to have

2 done. Did he specify who in the administration did not allow him to do

3 what he wanted?

4 A. No, he didn't say that in so many words. He just said that those

5 from the administration did not allow him to help us more, but he didn't

6 name any names.

7 Q. And did he tell you what he feared would happen if he did not

8 follow these orders? Did he indicate what would happen to him?

9 A. He just said that he could have serious problems if he were to be

10 caught helping us. He said, "I could have bad, awful problems."

11 Q. Did you, besides stealing, stealing medication, did you or other

12 detainees get hold of medicines in other ways?

13 A. As far as I know, there was no other way there. It was possible

14 for somebody from outside, somebody from a working group to bring in some

15 medicines, but I don't believe that was the most important channel. I

16 think it was rather our ability to make do in those circumstances.

17 Q. You mentioned Gojko Jankovic. Did any medical doctors visit the

18 KP Dom and treat detainees? Do you recall anybody?

19 A. His name is Gojko Jokanovic, not Jankovic.

20 Q. Sorry.

21 A. In the beginning, some doctors would come, even a dentist. He

22 stayed for about a month, and later I saw him carrying a sackful of

23 medicines and escorted by a guard. I saw him leaving the KP Dom and he

24 never came back.

25 In the beginning also a colleague of mine, a gynaecologist, Cedo

Page 3740

1 Dragovic, used to come. I met him once. There was also the ear, throat,

2 and nose specialist, Drago Vladicic. I never met with him there. And on

3 one occasion I saw Dr. Reljo Divjan who just entered the building where

4 the infirmary was located - he was wearing a military uniform - but he

5 left very quickly.

6 Q. Let us try to specify the times when these doctors came. You said

7 there was a dentist who came for about a month. Do you know which month?

8 A. That was very early into the existence of the camp. It could have

9 been the month of June, for instance. After June I never saw him there.

10 He didn't show up. I heard he had fled for Belgrade. It was -- so he

11 appeared for the first time in early June, and he was there for the entire

12 month of June.

13 As for Cedo Dragovic, I think he used to come the first three

14 months, and perhaps sometime in September he disappeared as well. At

15 least, he didn't come any more.

16 Q. And Drago Vladicic, when did he treat detainees?

17 A. He took over from Dr. Cedo Dragovic, but I don't think he stayed

18 long, either. He could have been there for about three or four months,

19 perhaps, not longer.

20 Q. And you said that Mr. -- Dr. Reljo Div --

21 A. Divjan.

22 Q. Divjan, yes. That he also came only once, and when was that; do

23 you recall?

24 A. That was already 1993, maybe the summer of 1993.

25 Q. When these various doctors came in the first month, did they come

Page 3741

1 on a daily basis or less frequent?

2 A. I think they came only once a week.

3 Q. Did they treat all the detainees that actually needed treatment,

4 or what did they do?

5 A. I met up with Cedo Dragovic once. He wasn't examining any

6 prisoners. There was a queue, and he was standing -- sitting at a desk.

7 There was a guard there. He would ask the inmate, "What's wrong with

8 you? What do you need?" But he didn't examine them. And since Gojko was

9 always present there as a male nurse, he would give Gojko instructions as

10 to whether to issue medicines or not.

11 I think that they tried, within certain limits, to help the

12 detainees.

13 Q. You described to us the conversations you had with Mr. Jokanovic.

14 I forgot to ask you: When did you discuss with Mr. Jokanovic, his

15 possibilities to help? When was that?

16 A. That was not only once. We were exerting constant pressure to try

17 to get them to improve the quality of treatment, especially for elderly

18 people because we knew that the elderly were in greatest need of medical

19 help. Myself and other doctors tried to get him to help us more and to

20 get him to do certain things on the sly.

21 We had not only one conversation with him. We talked to him

22 whenever we could. We tried to find ways and means for him to procure

23 medication and bring it in, and he would often do that. Sometimes he

24 would show up in one of our rooms. He came to my room two or three

25 times. He would call one of us out and give us some medicines so that the

Page 3742

1 others don't see.

2 Q. Can you give us a time frame when these conversations with Gojko

3 Jokanovic took place? Over your entire time of detention or when?

4 A. If you mean this direct contact, when he told us that he couldn't

5 help us more because administration did not allow it, that could have been

6 in the beginning, in the early days of the camp, perhaps the first five or

7 six months. If you mean that specific reply, that was in the fifth or

8 sixth month into the existence of the camp. But I repeat: For the entire

9 duration of our detention, we were constantly trying to get more than he

10 could provide.

11 Q. Besides the rooms where detainees were detained, were there also

12 some of them kept in isolation cells or solitary confinement?

13 A. Yes, there were solitary cells. That's what we called them. They

14 were on the ground floor of the left wing building, and they were located

15 near the entrance to the KP Dom, on the right-hand side. I believe two

16 solitary cells were on the right-hand side from the entrance, and I

17 believe there was a total of four or five of them on the ground floor.

18 Q. I think I have to clarify.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

20 show the witness the photos 7512 and 7513. They are on the same sheet,

21 one above the other. First this one.

22 Q. Would you please have a look at the bottom photo first. Could you

23 point out -- you said they were in the left -- they were in the left wing,

24 and I -- no. Let's look at the top photo first.

25 You said they were in the left wing, the isolation cells. Can you

Page 3743












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3744

1 point them out here on this photo?

2 A. It's not on this photograph.

3 Q. What do you call the left wing and the right wing? Maybe we can

4 try to find out. Building 1, with this yellow number 1, that the left

5 wing?

6 A. No. I call it the right wing. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's how

7 I'm referring to it. To me, that is the right wing. The left wing is on

8 the opposite side, completely elsewhere.

9 On this side, there were no solitary cells at all. In buildings 1

10 and 2, there were no solitary confinement cells, as far as I know.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the witness is obviously talking

12 about his own perspective from inside the building. But so that we don't

13 get any confusion later, perhaps if you could both refer to the wings as

14 number 1 and number 2 even though it might cause a little problem for the

15 doctor. Otherwise, we're going to be hopelessly confused when we read the

16 transcript.


18 Q. The building 2 -- you know, the building you see on this photo,

19 there is a yellow number 2. Is that the building you are talking about?

20 JUDGE HUNT: Number 2 is his left wing.


22 Q. Your left wing. Would you call the building 2 the left wing?

23 A. You asked me about solitary cells. The building 2 has no solitary

24 cells. I can call it the central building. And the attachment, the

25 annex, which is not visible here - it's a totally different building -

Page 3745

1 this annex is what I'm calling the left wing. Perhaps we should call it

2 building 3. Perhaps that's easier.

3 Q. No. Look at the bottom photo.

4 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. I think the best thing to do is to show him

5 the plan because, you see, we have been referring to them as two separate

6 buildings, number 1 and number 2, in effect. What he is saying is that

7 what we call number 2, the jutting-out part, is a separate building, and

8 what we see to the right of it, which is shown as number 3 in the bottom

9 photograph, we've been calling that all part of building 2. So we're

10 going to have to agree very clearly at the outset what it is we want to

11 refer to.

12 Now that I see that photo with the number 3 on it, I think the

13 doctor is correct. Let's call that number 3 for the moment.


15 Q. When you see now the bottom photo, and there is a yellow number 3,

16 would that be the section where the solitary cells were?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. We have clarified the matter.



22 Q. Do you know how many detainees were kept in those solitary cells?

23 A. I think the exact number of detainees who passed through the

24 solitary cells will never be known. We tried to count the meals that were

25 carried to the detainees in those solitary cells and to calculate how many

Page 3746

1 of them there were. We imagined if one meal was on the tray, there was

2 one. If there were five meals, there were five people detained there.

3 But the prison is structured in such a way that you can always, at any

4 time, see what's going on within the compound, and nobody can enter

5 without being seen by the administration and the prisoners because

6 everything is centralised. Everything is in the field of vision.

7 And because there are these solitary cells in building 3 and

8 cells, solitary cells, in the administration building, we could judge by

9 the number of meals how many detainees were kept there; but we could not

10 know that during the night whether they were bringing somebody into those

11 solitary cells, for instance, into the ones near the gate. So I don't

12 believe it's possible to determine the exact number of people in solitary

13 cells. We who were detained cannot claim with any degree of certainty

14 what the number was.

15 Q. Were you yourself ever taken to a solitary confinement cell during

16 your detention?

17 A. I was in a solitary cell only once, and that was a cell in

18 building 3. I don't know the number of the room. They were numbered 1,

19 2, 3, and so on. I think the room I was in was number 2.

20 Q. And when were you taken there? When were you there?

21 A. It was winter. It was January or February 1993. I think it was

22 January.

23 Q. And why were you taken there? What caused it?

24 A. Since it was cold, we were trying to make some clothing out of

25 blankets that a group found on the upper floors of building 3. We started

Page 3747

1 making scarves, socks, vests, caps, to keep warm. And a large number of

2 prisoners were involved, including myself. And one evening the guards

3 burst in and confiscated everything, the blankets and what we had made

4 already. Anyone who had this sort of makeshift clothing was taken to a

5 solitary cell, and I was taken there for a pair of socks that I had made.

6 Q. And how long were you kept there?

7 A. I only spent the night there. I was released the next day. It

8 wasn't long. I believe that one of the guards interceded in my behalf to

9 let me out early.

10 Q. Who actually sent you into the solitary confinement? Who made

11 this decision, do you know?

12 A. I don't know, but the guard who had come, his name was Micevic and

13 he was a neighbour of mine, he was the one who took me to the solitary

14 cell.

15 Q. Were you mistreated, beaten, or humiliated while you were in the

16 isolation -- solitary confinement cell?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And any of the others that were also locked up there? I mean,

19 while you were there, could you tell?

20 A. At the time when I was there, I did not hear any voices or any

21 sounds that would indicate that somebody was being abused, mistreated.

22 Q. While you were in the solitary confinement cell, how did you feel?

23 What did you -- yes, how did you feel?

24 A. I must say, I felt very miserable. The solitary cell is very

25 narrow. The windows facing the street were on the wall. It was very

Page 3748

1 cold. I had no blankets. I tried to pull up my knees and keep my -- keep

2 warm, but the only way to keep warm is to keep pacing, so that's what I

3 did. I paced from one corner of the solitary cell to the other, back and

4 forth.

5 Q. Were you afraid while you were in the cell?

6 A. Of course I was. I was frightened. I was alone, and I was afraid

7 of the coming nightfall because I knew that ugly things could happen. I

8 was actually expecting somebody to visit me that night, and I was prepared

9 for a beating. I knew that anything could happen. However, nothing

10 happened and no one came.

11 Q. Why did you expect beatings or a visitor coming to your cell and

12 doing bad things to you? Why did you feel that?

13 A. Because during my stay in Room 16 and Room 18, I saw all these men

14 who had been in solitary confinement cells and they talked about their

15 horrible experiences from the solitary confinement cells, these guards and

16 soldiers who came to beat them. Sometimes they were drunk; on other

17 occasions they were not. However, at first in the months of June, July,

18 May, I heard cries and screams of people from these isolation cells, and I

19 expected something similar to happen to me as well, perhaps.

20 Q. Your being taken there into the solitary confinement cell, was it

21 a kind of punishment for having made the socks?

22 A. Exactly. I think that is quite correct because people were taken

23 to solitary confinement for very plain reasons. If they would catch you

24 playing cards, if they caught you heating water with a heater if you had

25 one, if you did not observe the rules of conduct as they called them, you

Page 3749

1 could be taken to solitary confinement.

2 Q. Were you ever punished for having violated the rules on another

3 occasion?

4 A. I was punished because I made a mistake. Let's call it a

5 mistake. Again, I trusted a Serb neighbour. Serb prisoners were right

6 next door to us, so we could communicate through the door. Then in the

7 anteroom of their room they had put a table where they placed bread,

8 slices of bread. Our door, our door was ajar, and we saw some bread there

9 on the table. Some of them would get into that room and take some bread,

10 and then they would be beaten for it.

11 Once I saw a Serb neighbour of mine, and he waved his hand at me,

12 sort of telling me to get into that room and to get some bread, and then I

13 was beaten for two or three minutes after he had beckoned me. A group of

14 Serb soldiers was beating me on the head, although I tried to protect my

15 head, and all over my body. I did manage to take the bread though. Then

16 I went for an interview, as they called it, with Savo Todovic.

17 Q. Let me just interrupt you here. You said a group of Serb soldiers

18 were beating you on the head. Where did they come from? Were they in the

19 building, in the prisoners' building?

20 A. A group of Serb prisoners. These were prisoners who had violated

21 the rules of the army of Republika Srpska, who did not want to fight or

22 who had done something bad, who had stolen something or killed someone.

23 They were imprisoned there in that room next door to us, so between us was

24 only a small hall. So that's how we managed to communicate with them.

25 They were not armed soldiers. They were prisoners at that time.

Page 3750

1 Q. And when you speak about your room, do you refer to Room 16?

2 A. No. No. At that moment, I was in Room 18.

3 Q. Yes. And when did this happen?

4 A. That was the winter of 1993, the winter of 1993. I can't remember

5 exactly. I can't remember the date, not even the month, but it was cold.

6 It was wintertime.

7 Q. You said you had a kind of an interview with Savo Todovic. Can

8 you describe where you had this interview and what was said?

9 A. At the entrance into the building, into building 3, there is a

10 small guards' room where the guards spend the night. It's a small room,

11 perhaps 2 by 3 metres, perhaps even less than that.

12 The guards took me to that room. Savo Todovic came and then he

13 talked to me. I had expected him to punish me, to lock me up. However,

14 he talked about my brother because he knew my brother very well. He said

15 that my brother was a supporter of the Ustasha movement, that he was in

16 Sarajevo at that time. Of course, that was senseless. I told him that I

17 knew otherwise.

18 Q. And did he punish you?

19 A. It's very interesting. He did not punish me. That is very

20 interesting. Of course I expected to be placed in solitary confinement on

21 account of that. However, he did not do it.

22 Q. What did he do?

23 A. What he did really surprised me. He took me to the kitchen. He

24 gave me a big dish with beans, and I practically ate all of it. After

25 that, the guard returned me to the room.

Page 3751

1 I don't know. I find that act quite inexplicable on his part.

2 Q. Why? Did he usually treat detainees otherwise?

3 A. I think that as far as detainees are concerned, he was the one who

4 was in charge. He's the one who said who would be taken to an isolation

5 cell; who would be beaten; who would be going to the working group; who

6 would be allowed to go outside the compound, who would not; who could be

7 in which room, who could not.

8 As far as the detainees themselves were concerned, he is the one

9 who really determined their fate. He spent most of his time going to see

10 the detainees, sending some detainees from certain rooms to other rooms.

11 So I was afraid that he would put me in solitary confinement or that even

12 worse things would be done to me.

13 Q. You have already mentioned the Serb prisoners that were detained

14 in the KP Dom. How many of them were there? Do you recall?

15 A. Sometime in March 1993, the prison in Foca admitted a group of

16 them. Perhaps there was 100 of them or 80. Between 80 and 100. These

17 were Serb prisoners who were transferred from the prisons of Republika

18 Srpska or Eastern Herzegovina, Bileca, Gacko, Trebinje. So in March 1993,

19 this number of Serbs was about 100.

20 I think at that time, the Foca prison was their central prison,

21 that it had that particular role or perhaps the role of a military prison

22 because most of the Serb prisoners who were brought there were in military

23 uniforms. Most of them had probably violated some military laws.

24 Q. And before March 1993, especially in summer or into your first

25 month of detention, how many Serbs were there?

Page 3752












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3753

1 A. That number could have been between 20, 30. Not more than that.

2 I knew some of them. I knew that some of them were in the prison from the

3 prewar days. They were in prison before the war.

4 They worked in the kitchen, in the prison, within the prison

5 compound. Of course, they were not locked up. They could go out, walk

6 about. They had as much food as they wanted. They worked in the

7 kitchen. They did things like that.

8 Q. At that time, were there also soldiers among the Serb detainees?

9 A. I think there were deserters who had deserted from the front line,

10 who didn't want to fight. I know that Simo Mojevic came then. I know

11 him. He was my teacher. Boro Ivanovic, who went to see their soldiers

12 and who gave them lectures, who tried to boost their morale, telling them

13 that they had to fight, that that was the only way to resolve things,

14 things like that. Then Suma was also detained for a while.

15 Q. Let us return to Boro Ivanovic. Who was he? In relation to the

16 prison, who was he? What was he doing there?

17 A. I had the opportunity of seeing him twice in the prison, I think.

18 Once, I was listening. I was eavesdropping through the door. I think

19 this was an action that was supposed to be taken by Serb soldiers in the

20 area of Preljuca, perhaps. They didn't want to do that, and a lot of them

21 were brought in, about 30. They were in military uniform. I knew some of

22 them. They were my neighbours. They were brought there and put into a

23 room. At that time, I was in Room 18, so I could communicate with them

24 because there was this corner where they were put up.

25 So practically, they were only two or three metres away from us,

Page 3754

1 so we could communicate with them. One of them was from Ustikolina, and

2 he told me that they had deserted, that they didn't want to fight. That

3 night, Boro Ivanovic or Ivanovic, Ivanovic, he came in military uniform.

4 I personally heard him attack them verbally saying, why did they desert?

5 Why did they not want to fight the balijas? He was explaining the goals

6 of the Serb struggle, explaining their objectives. That was it.

7 I think he was a member of the military. I don't think he

8 belonged to the KP Dom. That's my opinion. Let's say that he had some

9 kind of military/political post, or that he was involved in educating the

10 military or something like that.

11 Q. On which facts do you base this opinion about his position?

12 A. Because I think he was not in the hierarchy of the KP Dom. I did

13 not see him that often in the KP Dom. He was in military uniform. He had

14 a small bag that usually political commissars carried in the Second World

15 War. I heard what he was saying. I think that he did not have any direct

16 link to us whatsoever, that he was only in charge of these Serb soldiers.

17 Q. And you said you saw him twice and you have already described the

18 one incident. I forgot to ask you, when did this happen that you saw him

19 making this speech to the deserters, when approximately?

20 A. This was the autumn of 1992.

21 Q. And the second time that you saw him?

22 A. I can't remember exactly when this was. I think that at that time

23 he was in the compound. He didn't enter the building. He was in the

24 compound. He probably went to the administration building. I don't

25 know. I don't know why he came, though, and he didn't stay for long.

Page 3755

1 Q. On this occasion, did he also speak with the Serb prisoners?

2 A. I'm not sure whether he did then. I can't remember. Possibly so,

3 but I can't remember. Although he entered the building to talk to Serb

4 prisoners, I can't be sure. I cannot state with certainty that he entered

5 the building, but he was in the compound, though.

6 Q. When you saw, when you saw Mr. Ivanovic entering the prisoners'

7 building and speaking to the Serbs, was Mr. Krnojelac with him?

8 A. I don't think so.

9 Q. And was anyone else from the prison staff with him, or was he able

10 to enter the building alone, on his own?

11 A. There had to be guards there to open the door for him. I think

12 that some of the guards had to be with him.

13 Q. And when you saw him in the compound on this other occasion, who

14 was with him; do you recall?

15 A. I think it was Savo Todovic, nicknamed Bunda.

16 Q. Dr. Berberkic, we do not want to talk about the living conditions

17 because other detainees have already told us all the details, and we do

18 not have to repeat this. What I would like to know from you in this

19 regard is only, did the living conditions, especially the lack of food,

20 affect your physical health, and if so, in which way?

21 A. I weighed 87 kilos when I came to the camp. At one point I

22 weighed 62 kilograms. I could not sleep well because my bones were

23 aching. I had to find the right position. I had terrible problems. I

24 vomited several times because of the stomach trouble I had. The weight

25 loss probably led to some other reactions in my organism, so I had these

Page 3756

1 terrible vomiting spells two or three times.

2 I also had problems with my eyesight, probably due to a lack of

3 vitamins. I saw things only dimly; I would not see clearly. I could

4 hardly stand on my feet. Once I almost fell. I did not fall, but I

5 almost fell, although a lot of people were falling around me, many of them

6 due to exhaustion and a drop in blood sugar and things like that.

7 Q. What affect did the living condition, especially the lack of food,

8 have on the older or weaker detainees, besides the weight loss, of course?

9 A. The elderly people who were there simply could not move about.

10 They could not walk. They mostly lay down. If they would try to get up,

11 they would fall. We explained to them that they had to try to get up

12 gradually. And these signs of malnutrition were there, swellings on the

13 feet and hands. Also due to lack of proteins, their skin was getting dry

14 and parched. Hair was falling out.

15 I think that all the classical forms of malnutrition were present.

16 At one point, even lice appeared in Room 16 where I was, although we tried

17 to keep the level of hygiene at a maximum.

18 Q. Did you ever see food being delivered to the KP Dom?

19 A. Of course I did. In building 2 there was a warehouse. I think

20 it's building 2.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, just to confirm,

22 would the witness be shown the photo 7512. This one, yes, please.

23 Q. You see there this building with the number "2" --

24 A. Yes, yes, that's building 2, yes, yes. Down here on the ground

25 floor where there are three windows, there's a door as well where there

Page 3757

1 was a warehouse where even some of our people from the work group would

2 unload cans with food and other types of food. Once I saw through the

3 open door what was inside. That was the place. It was practically their

4 warehouse, their storage room.

5 Q. Yes, thank you.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was indicating the basement with

7 the door, that's the only door on this -- in this photo. Thank you.

8 Q. What kind of food did you see? What kind of food did you see

9 being delivered or stored in this storage room?

10 A. Most of it was canned food. And I think there was macaroni, rice,

11 something like that.

12 Q. And did the detainees receive this food?

13 A. As far as I know, no.

14 Q. And then who used it? Could you see?

15 A. That food was used, I think, by the Serb prisoners who were there

16 and also the KP Dom staff. At first, when the KP Dom was established,

17 that is, in June or July, the central mess where we ate was the central

18 mess for the staff of the KP Dom, that is to say, for guards, for the

19 management of the KP Dom and for the Serb prisoners as well. So they were

20 the ones who used that food. We only found leftovers from these tins in

21 the garbage and also leftover bread, leftover bread. Some people even

22 rummaged through the garbage to find food.

23 Q. Did anyone die due to the living conditions? Not the beatings.

24 I'm not -- we'll talk about beatings later on. Did anyone die due to the

25 living conditions?

Page 3758

1 A. Due to direct consequences of starvation, no. I don't think that

2 anyone died in the KP Dom as a direct consequence of that.

3 Q. And indirect?

4 JUDGE HUNT: That's a very open-ended question, if I may say so.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. You're right.

6 Q. Let's talk about the people who actually died. Do you know an

7 Esad Hadzic?

8 A. Yes. Yes, I knew Esad Hadzic from before. I was watching when

9 one day - I think it could have been June - when they carried him out of

10 the room, wrapped in a blanket. Later on, I communicated with Dr. Torlak

11 over the window, and he told me that Esad's ulcer had perforated, that he

12 requested him to be transferred to hospital urgently in order to undergo

13 surgery. However, he said that the guards that were on night duty that

14 night did not allow that to happen.

15 Q. But as I hear now, he was not in your room, Esad Hadzic.

16 A. No, he was not in my room.

17 Q. I do not need to go into any more details except for you said "in

18 June." Is it 1992 or 1993?

19 A. 1992.

20 Q. Do you know a person --

21 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, yes. Thank you.

23 JUDGE HUNT: We'll take the adjournment now. We'll try to live by

24 this crazy clock in this courtroom and resume at 11.30, according to that

25 clock.

Page 3759

1 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Witness, before the break we spoke about some people who died in

6 the KP Dom. I would like to know from you if you know a detainee Ibrahim

7 Sandal.

8 A. I know Ibrahim Sandal. He was in my room, Room 18. I was with

9 him for a while. He was very gravely ill. He couldn't move. He had lost

10 his appetite. He couldn't eat.

11 Q. What kind of an illness did he have?

12 A. I think he had heart trouble, high blood pressure, swollen legs.

13 It must have been cardiac insufficiency or something like that. I don't

14 know how he ended up in the KP Dom because I had left the KP Dom earlier.

15 I later heard that he died there.

16 Q. Did you know him from before the war?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was this person beaten in the KP Dom or did he have signs of

19 beating on his body?

20 A. That was not my impression.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this person is listed under

22 5.25.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


25 Q. Dr. Berberkic, do you know a person with the name Omer Kunovac?

Page 3760

1 A. I know that person very well. He was brought into my room

2 sometime in late May 1993. At that time, I was in building 3, on one of

3 the upper floors. We were isolated, 12 of us detainees, when he was

4 brought in, carried in because he couldn't walk. He was a deaf and mute

5 person from Ustikolina. I hadn't known him. I had just heard about him.

6 He couldn't talk. He was very badly beaten up. He had terrible stomach

7 pains. He couldn't eat. And I was present when he died. I think he died

8 on the 21st of June, 1993, sometime in the afternoon.

9 Q. Do you know what caused his death?

10 A. I am absolutely certain that the cause of his death is an injury

11 to the stomach caused by a blow, a blunt blow, a blow with a blunt object

12 which caused injury to the stomach.

13 Q. Do you know where he was beaten or who beat him?

14 A. He had been beaten in a solitary cell in the administrative

15 building. I don't know which cell, 1 or 2.

16 I discussed him with Gojko Jokanovic. We asked Gojko Jokanovic

17 that he be transferred to a hospital, and Gojko Jokanovic said it was out

18 of the question. And when I said the man would die very soon and when I

19 asked about what caused his injuries, he replied that it was Burilo's

20 handiwork.

21 Q. Why was it out of the question to bring him to the hospital? Did

22 Gojko indicate why it was out of the question?

23 A. No, no, he didn't say that. He didn't want to talk about that

24 possibility at all. I think that Gojko was having problems with the

25 administration right at that time because of the way he was helping us.

Page 3761












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3762

1 It was obvious that he was being followed and that the carpet was being

2 pulled from under his feet, and he was in danger, and it was obvious that

3 he didn't want to discuss the possibility at all.

4 Q. You said that Kunovac was beaten in the isolation cells in the

5 administration building. How do you know that? Did you hear anything, or

6 was Kunovac himself indicated -- indicating this? How do you know?

7 A. He didn't say anything because he couldn't talk. He was deaf and

8 mute. He could just utter unintelligible sounds. He was carried in from

9 the direction of the entrance from the administrative building. I don't

10 know whether he had been in a solitary cell. Probably. But he was

11 carried in from the administrative building which means that he hadn't

12 been in the prisoners' quarters.

13 Q. And when you said he was beaten in the isolation cells in the

14 administration building, that is then your conclusion or your assumption?

15 A. Yes, yes. I suppose that was it because that was the only place

16 where it could have happened. I do not rule out the possibility that he

17 was beaten up on the way to the KP Dom.

18 Q. How much time lay between him arriving in your room and his death?

19 Could you say how many days?

20 A. Three weeks, approximately. I have already said that he was

21 brought sometime in late May, and this was the 21st of June, so it was

22 three weeks on the outside.

23 Q. And you said according to what you saw, it was -- he was -- had a

24 stomach injury caused by a blunt object, beating with a blunt object.

25 What did you see that you came to this conclusion? What did you see on

Page 3763

1 his body?

2 A. At that moment Aziz Torlak was in the room, and we saw bruises on

3 his stomach. It was a haematoma, an inside bleeding. I discussed this

4 with Torlak because he knew more about it than I did, and he said it was

5 probably an internal injury, an injury to an internal organ which required

6 immediate intervention. Based on the appearance of his skin, the

7 haematoma, the changes in colour, and the rigidity of the stomach, Torlak

8 concluded that it was an injury to internal organs of the abdomen.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned on

10 Schedule B under number 35, and he is also mentioned under D-17; however,

11 on D-17, his name is misspelled. It says "Omer Kukovac," but according to

12 the dates and what is found out on the schedule, it has to be the same

13 person; at least, that is what the Prosecution believes.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Believes, thank you.


16 Q. Were you yourself beaten while you were detained in the KP Dom?

17 A. I was beaten once in the KP Dom, and that happened not inside a

18 building but in the kitchen.

19 Q. When did it happen?

20 A. I don't know the exact date. It could have been the autumn of

21 1992, but I cannot remember the exact date. However, I know how it

22 happened, and I can describe it in detail.

23 Q. Please do so.

24 A. We were coming back from the canteen where we had had lunch. I

25 was the last in the line. In front of me there was Dzevad Lojo, the

Page 3764

1 manager of the mine.

2 I was climbing down the stairs. I noticed that all the prisoners

3 were sitting with their heads bowed. I didn't know what was happening. I

4 heard this voice saying, "Bend your head. Bow." I didn't do that

5 immediately. I wanted to see who was speaking. I think Dzevad Lojo

6 didn't obey straight away either. Two soldiers in uniform, two armed

7 soldiers, were there. I don't believe they were from Foca. One of them

8 had a hat on his head. They had automatic rifles. They wore uniforms,

9 camouflage uniforms.

10 Dzevad Lojo received several blows and so did I. After that, of

11 course, we had to bow, and with our heads bowed, we filed into our room.

12 Q. Were the two of you the only ones beaten on this occasion, Dzevad

13 Lojo and you?

14 A. Yes. As far as I know, it was only the two of us, no one else.

15 Q. Did you sustain any injuries?

16 A. No, but I felt pain from a blow above my right ear, but there was

17 no bleeding, there was just a swelling and bruises which appeared later.

18 Q. You said that the soldiers or at least one of them wore a hat.

19 What kind of a hat did he wear? Was it a usual soldier's cap or what was

20 it?

21 A. It was a very unusual hat which I hadn't seen before. I think it

22 was part of a camouflage uniform, but it was unusually large, something

23 like a Mexican sombrero.

24 Q. When the soldiers spoke, could you hear any accent?

25 A. Yes, could. I tried to see who they were. I saw one of them, and

Page 3765

1 I don't think they were from Foca. I even think they were not from Serbia

2 either, from somewhere around, perhaps. I didn't know them.

3 Q. From their accent could you distinguish from where they could have

4 been?

5 A. I believe they were from Eastern Herzegovina. I don't know

6 exactly which place, but it could have been Bileca or Gacko.

7 Q. Do you know why these soldiers were in the compound?

8 A. I don't know the reason for their visits. Perhaps they had been

9 there to have lunch.

10 Q. Were guards present from the usual KP Dom staff? Were guards

11 present when that happened?

12 A. Yes. There was Milovan Vukovic from Josanica. He's a neighbour

13 of mine and I know him. At first he didn't react. He must have been

14 frightened too. All I know is he said, "Don't lift your heads. Don't

15 look up."

16 Q. Did the guard or the guards that were present, did they intervene

17 while you were beaten?

18 A. No, they didn't. Nobody intervened.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the witness has just described

20 the incident 5.12 in the indictment.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


23 Q. Did soldiers have access to the KP Dom in general?

24 A. I think that in the first few months soldiers could enter the

25 KP Dom.

Page 3766

1 Sometime in mid-June, a soldier wearing a uniform suddenly burst

2 into Room 16. He wasn't armed. We were very much taken aback and

3 frightened, but that soldier just entered the room, took it all in. He

4 stayed for about ten seconds. He didn't say a word. He looked at all of

5 us. He was probably looking for someone, but I don't think I had ever

6 seen him in Foca. He was wearing a military uniform. Judging by his

7 uniform, I believe he was a member of a paramilitary formation. He was

8 obviously looking for someone specific, but he didn't utter a word, which

9 surprised us. Ten seconds or so later, he left the room.

10 In general, in the beginning, armed soldiers could enter the

11 compound and our rooms, but that stopped happening later [as

12 interpreted].

13 Q. Could they enter the room without guards? Could they simply go

14 into the buildings where the prisoners were without any guard being

15 present?

16 A. No, they couldn't. The rooms were locked and the keys were kept

17 by guards. So they couldn't come in on their own. One of the guards had

18 to open the door.

19 Q. And you described this incident with the one soldier who burst

20 into your room, and you said it was in mid-June. Is that mid-June 1992?

21 A. 1992.

22 Q. And you said after some time it stopped, this coming of soldiers

23 stopped. When -- from when, what time onwards didn't soldiers come?

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. With your

25 leave, I have an objection. I didn't want to interrupt earlier. It says

Page 3767

1 in the transcript that it stopped happening. What he actually said was

2 that it happened less often. And my learned friend asked this question

3 because I had failed to react before. Perhaps it would be a good time to

4 clarify now that the witness actually said that that happened less often.

5 It says it stopped happening in the transcript.

6 JUDGE HUNT: At line 12, "... but that stopped happening later,"

7 yes. Well, if there's some problem, if there's some problem just ask the

8 question.

9 I was not pausing in order to remember your name, Mr. Bakrac. I

10 was trying to find the button to turn my microphone on which was covered

11 by a book. I'm sorry about that.

12 Anyway, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you ask the question again, see what

13 the answer is.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, yes.

15 Q. Did soldiers come into the compound throughout your detention, or

16 did it stop at one point in time?

17 A. I think it stopped at some point, and I think that point was after

18 the New Year 1993. From then on there were no more entries by armed

19 soldiers into the prisoners' quarters or the compound. But in the first

20 five or six months that used to happen, soldiers would come into the

21 compound and into our rooms; but later that stopped. I don't know if you

22 are now satisfied with my answer.

23 Q. Yes, thank you, sir.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I just -- I also forgot to tell

25 you that the guard that was mentioned being present during the beating of

Page 3768

1 this witness is actually mentioned in P-3 under the number 45.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


4 Q. Were you interrogated while you were in the prison?

5 A. I was interrogated in June, I believe it was. I believe it was

6 the 23rd of June. One of the guards came to fetch me, took me to the

7 administrative building and ushered me into one of the rooms on the first

8 floor. Maybe it was the second floor. Yes, I believe it was the second

9 floor.

10 He ushered me into a room where Zoran Vladicic, an investigator,

11 was sitting behind a desk. I knew him from before, and we even cooperated

12 on business. We even cooperated on certain cases before the war. And

13 there was also in that room one person wearing a military uniform. His

14 trousers were olive grey, and he wore a black T-shirt. That person kept

15 silent all the time during my interrogation. He was just present.

16 Q. You said that it was on the 23rd of June. What year?

17 A. 1992.

18 Q. And Zoran Vladicic you said, an investigator, investigator at that

19 time or even before? Where did he work and what did he do before the war?

20 A. As far as I know, he was an investigator even before the war. I

21 worked in the admissions section in the infirmary of the hospital, and

22 whenever an accident happened, he would show up. I believe he was an

23 investigator with the SUP of Foca.

24 Q. And you said you were interrogated in an office on the second

25 floor in the administration building. Entering the investigation -- the

Page 3769

1 administration building through this metal door, had you to turn to the

2 right or to the left part of the administration building?

3 A. To the right. We went to the right part of the administration

4 building.

5 Q. Yes. And what were you questioned about during this

6 interrogation?

7 A. I first spent some time waiting in the hallway, and there was

8 another prisoner with me waiting to be interrogated. His name was Sisic.

9 I don't know his first name. He was from Ustikolina, 20-ish. And FWS-162

10 was interrogated before me.

11 Q. And you mean on the same day?

12 A. Yes, the same day. Zoran Vladicic asked me how I had been

13 wounded, what had been happening to me, whether I had any weapons. I told

14 him that a bullet was taken out of my body in the hospital, that I was not

15 wounded in combat, that I was hit by a shrapnel. I thought -- he

16 insinuated that I was wounded in combat. I said that was absolutely not

17 true, that it was nonsense.

18 He had inquired about who had distributed weapons to Muslims, who

19 had weapons, who was a member of the SDA. I denied everything. I had no

20 knowledge of that at all. I simply wasn't interested. And he told me

21 that I belonged to a group of doctors who

22 wanted to organise themselves to

23 poison Serbian children and patients in hospitals,

24 and that allegedly in a family house in Foca

25 -- in my family house in Foca they found a

Page 3770












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3771

1 machine-gun. I denied all that.

2 Then he asked me whether I had voted for a sovereign Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina. I replied yes. He asked me whether I had attended political

4 rallies in Foca. I said I had attended only one rally in the school

5 centre.

6 He took out from his drawer a file, and he told me that I was

7 telling the truth, that he knew everything, that he had all the data

8 there, that he knew which rally I had attended, he knew who I consorted

9 with, who my friends were, but there was a way to make me confess what he

10 wanted to know. And he said it was better for me to confess than for him

11 to send me to "the basement," as he put it. And he also said, "Anything

12 can happen during the night."

13 I told him then that I could not confess to what I hadn't done,

14 especially not poisoning of Serbian patients who had been wounded or

15 Serbian children. He knew me from before, and he knew my family.

16 He put a paper in front of me which I was supposed to sign. I

17 read what was written there. I saw that it wasn't written anywhere --

18 that nothing about poisoning was written there on that paper, and I signed

19 the paper. Then I was taken back to my room, Room 16.

20 Q. The accusations like having a machine-gun in your home, were they

21 true or false? Did you have a machine-gun?

22 A. Of course they were false.

23 Q. And you said that he indicated "the basement," that you would be

24 taken to the basement and a lot of things could happen. What did that

25 mean? Did you know what he was talking about?

Page 3772

1 A. I think that he was quite direct. He said that there was this

2 basement and that during the night all sorts of things could happen, that

3 the soldiers would visit me. That's the way he put it, that the soldiers

4 would visit me, and, "You know what that means." That's what he said to

5 me.

6 Detainees who were interrogated before I was, some of them

7 returned to the room after being taken out while others were taken to this

8 basement and kept there for a night or two or three. I don't know how

9 long. That was probably one of the ways of making people confess what

10 they were being asked to confess.

11 Q. While you were interrogated, and you mentioned already this

12 Mr. Sisic, did you hear anybody being beaten or shouted at in the other

13 offices?

14 A. Then, in those offices, I did not hear anyone being beaten, no. I

15 know that Witness FWS-162 cried for a long time, that he was defending

16 himself, saying that he was not what they were saying he was. I know that

17 he was crying out loud.

18 As for Sisic, I don't think that he was beaten then at all.

19 Actually, I'm sure that they didn't beat anyone while I was there in those

20 offices.

21 Q. You mentioned already that you saw persons return to your room

22 with injuries or with signs of beating. Can you tell us whom you recall

23 who came back with the signs of beating?

24 A. I remember three detainees very well. The first detainee who was

25 taken out that day was my brother-in-law, Nedzad Delic, who was in

Page 3773

1 Room 18, above me. He was taken to the gate. One of the guards took him

2 to the gate.

3 I heard moans, cries, his screams, him beseeching them. He's a

4 young man, about 20 years old, very tall and strong. He was there for

5 about half an hour.

6 I was watching through the window of Room 16. When the gate

7 opened, two guards carried him into the compound. He could not walk.

8 They were holding him on the sides. He had been beaten up. They returned

9 him to Room 18. After that, I found out that he could not stand on his

10 own feet for a few days and could not walk for a few days.

11 Immediately after him, Emir Mandzo was taken out. He was in

12 Room 16 together with me.

13 Q. Let me just stop you here and ask you a few more details. When

14 did this happen? Do you recall when Mr. Delic was taken?

15 A. It could have been the month of July, mid-July.

16 Q. And what time of the day?

17 A. The afternoon, the afternoon. Well, the afternoon.

18 Q. The early afternoon or the late afternoon, if you know?

19 A. I think it was after lunch; that is to say, it could have been

20 around 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon.

21 Q. And you said mid-July. Is it 1992 or later?

22 A. 1992.

23 Q. And you said that you heard afterwards the sounds of beating.

24 Could you recognise his voice? Screaming, sorry.

25 A. Of course I could. He's my wife's brother, and there's no doubt

Page 3774

1 in my mind that it could have been somebody else's voice.

2 Q. Could you recognise the voice of the people who did that to him?

3 A. I met up with him after that, perhaps about a month later, in the

4 mess. It just so happens that his room and mine were having lunch at the

5 same time. I talked to him very briefly. He said that his schoolmates

6 had beat him, or neighbours. He said that Zoran Matovic, a guard who is

7 from Josanica and who was a guard at the KP Dom who guarded us there, was

8 off that day. It was not his shift. He was not working a shift on that

9 day. He brought a group from the town of Foca, including his schoolmates

10 and neighbours, including Zoran Vukovic, who was a karate man, and then he

11 described to me how they had beat him. He told me that while we were in

12 the canteen. He said that when they brought him into that room, that they

13 put a tarpaulin over his head and that they beat him with their hands,

14 they kicked him, that he fainted a few times, that they splashed water on

15 him.

16 When he came to, he realised that they had made a circle around

17 him and that most of them were under the influence, that they had a bottle

18 of brandy that was going round, that they were drinking, that they were

19 drunk.

20 Q. Did he mention if Zoran Matovic was actually involved during the

21 beating? Was he present during the beating? Did he mention anything like

22 that?

23 A. He said that Zoran Matovic was present and that he brought that

24 group from town.

25 Q. And you said that you could hear the sounds, his screaming and the

Page 3775

1 sounds of beating. From where did the sounds come, from where in the

2 administration building? Could you locate that?

3 A. They came from the solitary confinement cells. I think this is

4 the premises when you enter the KP Dom you go to the right-hand side, and

5 there are two rooms there.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

7 show the witness the Exhibit 6/1.

8 Q. Witness, another detainee made this floor plan, and it is supposed

9 to be the ground floor of the administration building that you see on the

10 lower building indicated. Do you recognise it? Can you orient yourself?

11 Can you show us where the entrance is that you just mentioned?

12 A. I don't know what you are actually referring to. Do you mean the

13 entrance to the KP Dom from the outside --

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. -- or the gate, the gate from the prison compound? What are you

16 referring to actually?

17 Q. You said just a minute ago, you said right from the entrance, and

18 I simply want to show -- you to show us what you meant with the pointer.

19 There is a pointer on your desk, and you have to point it on the ELMO, not

20 on the monitor.

21 A. This is where the entrance to the administration building is.

22 Room 1 and Room 2 are the rooms where this happened, where the beatings

23 took place, Room 1 and Room 2. I think it was Room 1.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the witness has just pointed out

25 the rooms -- soba 1 and soba 2 on the right side from the metal door.

Page 3776

1 JUDGE HUNT: And allowing for some, allowing for some delay with

2 the translation, he was pointing to where everybody else has said is the

3 door into the compound from the administration building as being such.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Is there some problem with that, Mr. Bakrac?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he pointed at the

7 entrance into the administration building from the compound of the KP Dom,

8 and he said that then you turn right. That's what he said. And this is

9 left, what he showed now.

10 A. No, no, please. I said quite clearly when I was being

11 interrogated that I entered the gate and then I turned right. And now I

12 know, of course, that when I enter the gate, the rooms are on the left. I

13 mean, really, there is no confusion about this. No confusion whatsoever.

14 But this is not right. The warehouse, the storage room, is not in

15 the right place here. I think it's in the wrong place, or there is

16 something missing here or number 1 is missing. I don't think this map is

17 good, at least, not this upper part, the premises where we had been

18 detained.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I can also -- to clarify the matter further,

20 we can use a photo. Just a second.

21 JUDGE HUNT: That would be better.


23 With the help of the usher, I would like to show the photo 7477,

24 this photo. It's the lower.

25 Q. If you would please look at the lower photo, and the rooms that

Page 3777

1 you just mentioned, are they on the photo, at least, the windows?

2 A. Yes, the windows of those rooms are on the photograph. When you

3 enter the gate from the prison compound, they are on the left. There's no

4 doubt about that.

5 Q. And can you point at the windows with the pointer?

6 A. It's the window here, the other window, and then the third window.

7 Now, this could have happened: It could have been window number 2 or Room

8 1, whichever way you want to put it.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the witness was indicating the three

10 ground-floor windows left from the door, and he was especially indicating

11 the second window from the left -- or from the right, I suppose.

12 JUDGE HUNT: The middle window.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes, thank you. In reference to the

14 victim Nedzad Delic, it's the incident B-15. And the witness had also

15 mentioned the guard Zoran Matovic involved, and that is the person P-48,

16 on P-3, the person number 48.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


19 Q. I just have another question. Nedzad Delic, does he have a

20 nickname Stela, or is Stela Delic a different person?

21 A. Nedzad Delic has a nickname, but it's quite different from the one

22 you mentioned. His nickname is Pico. I don't know who Stela is, though.

23 I don't know about that at all.

24 Q. Thank you. It was just a question.

25 Did your brother-in-law, did he survive the KP Dom, or is he

Page 3778

1 missing?

2 A. No, he's registered as missing.

3 Q. When did he leave the KP Dom and how?

4 A. I think that could have been the month of September when he was

5 taken out. He was taken in a group of some 30 men. All of them were

6 young men from 20 to 35 years old. We were then told that they were being

7 taken out to do some kind of work.

8 Q. And can you tell us the year?

9 A. That was 1992. I do apologise. From now on I will really try to

10 state the year when something happened.

11 Q. And you said they were called, they were told -- you were told

12 that they were being taken out to do some kind of work. What kind of

13 work, do you know?

14 A. We were not told then. Later when we talked to certain guards, we

15 tried to find out a bit more. I asked one of the guards very directly -

16 we were close - and I asked him what had happened to him and this entire

17 group, actually. I said to him, "Is it possible that they went out to

18 work?" And he said to me, very directly, that all of that was just talk.

19 Q. And you said that your brother-in-law is still missing?

20 A. Yes, he is registered as missing. Of course, he's not alive.

21 Q. And you said that actually three people returned to your room or

22 you saw being returned with injuries. Who is the second one? We have

23 Delic, and now who is the second one that you remember?

24 A. The second one, the second one was Hasan Dzano. He's also from

25 Josanica.

Page 3779












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3780

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise for interrupting, and

4 I'm sure that this was done by my colleague inadvertently. It says in the

5 transcript that Hasan Delic was returned to the witness's room. That's

6 not what I understood the witness to say earlier on during his testimony,

7 that Hasan Delic and two others returned to "his" room. That's what the

8 transcript said. I think that before he did not say that Hasan Delic was

9 returned to his room.

10 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure I see what the distinction is.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness said he was in Room 18, he was

12 above. He did not say he returned to his room. I did not follow the

13 transcript. So there then should be a mistake.

14 JUDGE HUNT: But what is the distinction? He was returned to his

15 own room or the witness's room, is that what the problem is? The word

16 "his" there is ambiguous.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. In the transcript,

18 I saw the question being put, saying that the Delic returned to his room.

19 That's not what the witness said before. And even now my learned friend

20 said that the witness had said that he had returned to Room 18, not 16.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, perhaps you had better sort it out. As I read

22 the transcript, it seems to me to be correct, but if there is a problem,

23 please sort it out, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


25 Q. Mr. Delic, your brother-in-law, in which room was he when this

Page 3781

1 beating occurred?

2 A. I would have to say something. Please let me say something before

3 that. There is no person called Hasan Delic. There is only Nedzad

4 Delic. The gentleman said just now "Hasan Delic." There is no such

5 person Hasan Delic. There is only Nedzad Delic. I said that quite

6 clearly, and I said he was in Room 18 at that time and that he was taken

7 out and that he was returned to Room 18.

8 The other two detainees were with me in Room 16, and they bear the

9 following names: Hasan Dzano and Emir Mandzo. That is the truth.

10 Q. Yes. Thank you. Hasan Dzano, who was he? Did you know him from

11 before?

12 A. Yes. He was my neighbour. He was about 65 years old. He was a

13 retiree from the village of Josanica. He had surrendered in Josanica, and

14 he was taken to the KP Dom. He was taken out of my room. He was in the

15 same room with me. He was taken out. He was beaten by the same group

16 that beat my brother-in-law. He had a hat on his head then - I remember

17 that - because he was a huntsman.

18 He told me later, after he returned to my room, how he had been

19 beaten. He was beaten in an identical way. First they took off his hat

20 when they brought him in there, and then they said to him, "You're not

21 going to go hunting deer in the forest any more. You'll never have an

22 opportunity of being a huntsman again." They threw his hat away, they put

23 a tarpaulin over his head, and they beat him. He kept falling.

24 The guards also helped him get back to my room or, rather, carried

25 him to my room. Of course I walked up to him straight away. His back was

Page 3782

1 all black and blue. He had a laceration about ten centimetres long, and

2 this was probably inflicted by a soldier's boot, underneath his left jaw,

3 which was bleeding. He also had a footprint where his chest bone is, and

4 the marks were quite clear. And he had problems with breathing. He could

5 not breathe.

6 We put some cold compresses on him immediately, salt as well. We

7 did have some salt. I tried -- I tried to examine his chest, but I think

8 that his chest bone was broken. I also sewed up his wound, the laceration

9 that was bleeding. I used a needle and black thread. We also gave him a

10 pain-killer. We had a pain-killer called Analgin. He could not walk. We

11 brought his food to the room.

12 Q. You mentioned that he was beaten by the same group as your

13 brother-in-law. Does that mean that he was taken on that same day to the

14 administration building?

15 A. Yes, the same day. He was taken out right after my

16 brother-in-law. When my brother-in-law was returned to Room 18, the guard

17 came to our room and took Hasan out.

18 Q. You said what Hasan told you afterwards, but what did you yourself

19 see and hear?

20 A. I don't know what you're actually referring to. I described what

21 I saw, what he looked like. I also heard cries.

22 Q. Yes. That's not what I was asking you. What did you hear when he

23 was taken? Did you hear cries and blows?

24 A. I heard moans, cries. You know, when you're beating an old man --

25 when old men moan, then this is a special kind of moan, a special kind of

Page 3783

1 cries. This was like screaming. He was beseeching them not to beat him.

2 He probably was in terrible pain. He was very loud.

3 Q. Did you recognise his voice?

4 A. Of course I recognised his voice. That man was a neighbour of

5 mine and we were friends.

6 Q. Did the sounds come from the same room that you indicated

7 previously?

8 A. Yes. Yes. No doubt about that. It was the same room.

9 Q. How much time did Mr. Dzano need to recover from these injuries?

10 A. He always had problems with his breathing. He could never breathe

11 normally. He was in pain. The swellings on his back subsided over a few

12 days. However, other swellings appeared. There were still bruises on his

13 back, though, and he also had pain on both sides. The laceration had

14 grown together though. He did not have any other problems, but he needed

15 about seven days to come to, in a way.

16 Q. When did Mr. Dzano leave the KP Dom? Do you know?

17 A. I can't remember exactly. It could have been the month of

18 September, the beginning of September.

19 Q. How did he leave?

20 A. Quite simply, they came -- a guard came and called out a group,

21 and his name was within this group. There was no explanation given, no

22 nothing. These names were just called out. There was a list of people,

23 and his name was on this list. He took his things and left.

24 Q. And are you speaking about the year 1992 again?

25 A. Yes. Yes, I am speaking about the year 1992.

Page 3784

1 Q. Do you know if he is still alive? Did you ever find out?

2 A. I think he's dead.

3 Q. Why do you think that?

4 A. Because he never appeared anywhere. No one knows anything about

5 him. I talked to his family after that. There's been no trace of him

6 that could possibly lead to him being found.

7 Q. And just one more question in relation to him. Does he have the

8 nickname Kalabic or something similar?

9 A. Yes. That's his real nickname, Kalabic. A very interesting

10 nickname, but that is his nickname.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the person we just spoke about

12 is listed under B-18.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


15 Q. And the third person that you saw return with injuries into your

16 room, who was that?

17 A. His name is Emir Mandzo. Of course I knew him. He worked at the

18 Neurology Department of the Foca hospital. He got a son a month before

19 the war, and he carried his picture around. He had his picture in the

20 KP Dom. His wife gave birth a month before the KP Dom. He was taken out

21 after Hasan Dzano. The guards took him out.

22 Q. Does that mean that he is a young man?

23 A. He could have been 22, 23.

24 Q. Yes. And what did you see when he was taken out?

25 A. He was taken to the gate and again screams and moans were heard,

Page 3785

1 someone falling down from a chair. In prison, you develop new senses. I

2 was in Room 16, and we heard every sound. You heard a blunt object

3 falling. You heard water flowing, and he later told me how he had

4 faired. It was the same group of people. They were, most of them, his

5 neighbours. These three prisoners had been neighbours. He, too, was

6 beaten by the same group of people. He told me how it was. They did not

7 throw a tarpaulin over his head, they just started beating him.

8 He fainted several times and even, as he later told me, he was

9 near death for a while. He came to when they splashed water on him. They

10 perched him up on a chair. Then they took another chair, they took off

11 his shoes, they inserted his arms and legs through the frame of the other

12 chair. One of them took a baton and beat him on the arms and legs. Zoran

13 Vukovic, who was a karate man from Josanica, hit him with his soldier's

14 boots on the jaw, and he fainted again.

15 He says that he lost consciousness several times, then they

16 splashed water on him and he would come round again, and all that could

17 have lasted for half an hour, maybe more. Then they brought him back into

18 the room.

19 Q. Did you hear the sounds of beating and screaming again from that

20 same room that you had previously shown to us?

21 A. Yes, very clearly. It was not only myself who heard it, but all

22 the prisoners who were inside. Some of them could not bear to listen.

23 They put pillows on their head. We were terrified. We thought it would

24 go on and on, and that it would end tragically.

25 Q. And what kind of injuries did you later see on Mr. Mandzo?

Page 3786

1 A. His face was completely distorted from the blows. His upper lip

2 was lacerated. His teeth were broken in the upper jaw. He had awfully

3 large swellings on the soles of both his feet. He had swollen back sides

4 the hands, and his index fingers were broken. His entire body was one

5 huge wound. It was black and blue.

6 Q. How much time did he need to recover or ...

7 A. He couldn't get up for about three days. We had to carry him. He

8 was able to stand up later, but he was in great pain. But the swellings

9 came back very soon. We had put cold water compresses on his arms and

10 legs, and the swellings subsided. But for three days he couldn't eat and

11 he couldn't get up.

12 Q. Did Mr. Mandzo leave the KP Dom before you?

13 A. He was taken out of the KP Dom in the same group as Hasan Dzano,

14 and nothing has been heard of him since.

15 Q. Did you have contact with his family members as well,

16 Mr. Mandzo's, I mean?

17 A. No, I had no contact at all. I only heard that his wife had

18 survived and that she was somewhere abroad together with his son.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This incident is listed, Your Honour, this

20 incident is listed under B-37.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


23 Q. Witness, these beatings that you just described, was this the only

24 time this day, was it the only time that you heard the sound of beatings

25 from this room that you showed us; or did you hear more similar sounds

Page 3787

1 from this room on other occasions?

2 A. No, it wasn't the only time. I believe from the first half of

3 June until the end of June there had been more. I think June was the most

4 awful month. It was the time when prisoners were taken out to the gate or

5 to those rooms and were abused and beaten there.

6 The middle of June, the second half of June and the 28th of June,

7 which was St. Vitus day, that was the period when we could clearly hear

8 the screams, moans. We could hear people begging those who were beating

9 them not to beat them. They were saying, "Please, please, don't. I

10 haven't done anything."

11 Q. And are we talking about June 1992?

12 A. It was June 1992.

13 Q. Witness, we actually do not need to go into the general pattern in

14 which those incidents occurred, but I would rather like to address with

15 you particular victims that you had mentioned in previous statements that

16 you gave to the Prosecutor's Office or to the Bosnian authorities.

17 Do you know the Rikalo brothers or Rikalo relatives?

18 A. They are Rikalo brothers, not relatives. I knew them well.

19 Husein Rikalo is the eldest. He is my generation. Zaim Rikalo is

20 younger, and Hidajet or Hido is the youngest. I knew all three of them

21 well. They used to come to my house, and I believe they are even some

22 distant relatives of mine. They were in the KP Dom, and they were said to

23 have been brought there from Montenegro.

24 In that month, all of those three men were taken out to the gate

25 and were beaten, all three of them. And the eldest Rikalo was beaten up

Page 3788












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3789

1 the worst, Husein Rikalo.

2 Q. How do you know that? Could you recognise his voice, or how do

3 you know that?

4 A. I know because I could clearly recognise his voice, and I know the

5 exact words he was uttering. He was saying, "Please don't, please don't

6 beat me. Please." And he repeated that three or four times, "Please

7 don't beat me."

8 Q. Did you hear when Husein was beaten, did you hear anything else

9 besides his voice? Did you hear the voice of those who did this to him?

10 A. I heard voices, but I couldn't tell to whom they belonged. I

11 heard them asking him, demanding something like, "Where did you bury it?

12 Tell us. We'll kill you." I don't know what they meant.

13 Q. And were these three Rikalo brothers, were they in your room when

14 they were taken, or if not, where were they?

15 A. They were not in my room. I don't know the number of the room

16 they were in. I can't remember.

17 Q. Were they in the same building as you, or were they in the other

18 building, in the building 1; do you know that?

19 A. They were in building 1, but I don't know which room.

20 Q. And could you see them go through the yard?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you mentioned Zaim, Husein -- Zaim Rikalo. Did you also

23 recognise his voice when he was beaten, or was it only Husein that you

24 recognised?

25 A. I recognised his voice, too. I can claim with absolute certainty

Page 3790

1 about the two of them. I'm not sure about the youngest because I hadn't

2 socialised with the youngest brother, but I'm sure about the elder two,

3 and I know those were their voices. I can't be sure 100 per cent about

4 the youngest brother.

5 Q. You mentioned that the youngest brother's name was Hido. Do you

6 know any Mithat Rikalo?

7 A. I don't know who that person is. It's not familiar to me at all.

8 Q. And did you, did you see these Rikalo brothers taken only once, or

9 were they taken several times for beatings?

10 A. I believe the eldest was taken out several times. I'm not sure

11 about the other two.

12 Q. Did you see Husein? Did you see him, with injuries, return to his

13 building?

14 A. Yes. After this happened, he never came back.

15 Q. My question was: You said that Husein was taken several times.

16 Did you ever see him return? On any of these occasions, did you see him

17 return with injuries?

18 A. I can't remember that. I don't know.

19 Q. And did you ever hear or see them again after they were taken for

20 the last time?

21 A. I have spoken to his mother in Sarajevo. She told me that she has

22 some information to the effect that they had been killed, although she was

23 hoping for a long time, and she searched for them for a long along time.

24 She solicited the help of various organisations, but then she has lost all

25 hope that they could be alive.

Page 3791

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the victims Rikalo brothers are

2 listed under B-45 to 48 and C-21 to 23, although there is no Hido Rikalo

3 listed but instead a Mithat Rikalo.

4 Q. To clarify this point further, can you tell us -- you said that

5 Hido was the younger of the brothers. What was his job? Do you know

6 that?

7 A. No. No, I don't know what he did for a living.

8 Q. What did he look like? Can you describe him?

9 A. He was tall, thin, with short hair. He had a baby face, I would

10 say, very clear complexion. His hair was brown and short.

11 Q. Yes. Thank you. Did you see that Nurko Nisic was taken?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you describe what you saw and heard?

14 A. I saw Nurko Nisic more than once. I think he was taken out of his

15 room more than once and returned. He had swellings, haematomas on his

16 face. He had lost so much weight that I had trouble recognising him,

17 although he had been my neighbour in Foca.

18 Q. Was he in your room or where?

19 A. No, he wasn't in my room. He was in building 1.

20 Q. When did you see his injuries that you just described?

21 A. I was in Room 16 at the time, and the path the prisoners had to

22 take from building 1 to the canteen was very close to my windows. The

23 distance was less than two metres. So we could see everything from our

24 windows.

25 Q. You said that he was taken on several occasions. In that time

Page 3792

1 period that you mentioned, that is the second half of June 1992 or is it

2 in a different time period?

3 A. That was in June 1992.

4 Q. And you said he was taken several times. Do you know how many

5 times?

6 A. I don't know, but I think it was more than five times.

7 Q. When you saw him being taken for the last time, did he return?

8 A. He didn't return to the room then, but I heard the guards'

9 voices. I heard the voices of the guards who were calling him. They were

10 saying, "Nurko, Nurko."

11 Q. When did you hear this, calling him "Nurko, Nurko."

12 A. That was in the second half of June 1992.

13 Q. From where did these voices come from when you heard this "Nurko,

14 Nurko."

15 A. They came from Room 2, I suppose.

16 Q. You mean where the beatings occurred? Is that what you mean?

17 A. Yes, that's the room I mean, by the gate, inside the

18 administrative building.

19 Q. When you heard this calling "Nurko, Nurko," did you hear at the

20 same time the sound of beatings?

21 A. Yes, I could hear that.

22 Q. Could you recognise the voices of the guards that were calling

23 out?

24 A. No. I cannot be sure, but I think it was Dragan Obrenovic.

25 However, I'm not sure.

Page 3793

1 Q. Did you find out later on that he died or if he is still missing?

2 Did you speak with his relatives?

3 A. I spoke to one of the guards in the prison who told me that Nurko

4 had died during a beating.

5 Q. Can you tell us the name of this guard or are you not willing to

6 reveal his identity?

7 A. I would rather not, not yet.

8 Q. Why not? Can you explain that?

9 A. Because he's in a position where he could have problems.

10 Q. Do you know Bico Hamed, nicknamed Salem?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I forgot to give you the

12 numbers. It's C-19 and 5.27 in the indictment.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


15 Q. Bico Salem or Hamed, do you know this person?

16 A. I know him as Salem Bico. I know that he was a policeman in Foca,

17 and I saw him in the KP Dom. He was in building 1. I saw him with

18 swellings around his eye, and haematomas. He had obviously been beaten,

19 and he is one of the group who was taken out in the second half of

20 June 1992.

21 Q. What did you hear, if anything? Did you hear anything when he was

22 taken out on these obviously at least two occasions?

23 A. I didn't know him well and I did not recognise his voice, so I

24 cannot claim one way or the other with certainty.

25 Q. But when he was taken, did you hear the sounds of beating at that

Page 3794

1 same time?

2 A. I heard the sound of beating, but I didn't hear his voice nor

3 would I have been able to recognise it.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is listed under C-2

5 and B-5.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


8 Q. And Halim Konjo. Do you know him?

9 A. I know Halim Konjo. He was in the KP Dom. He's one of the group

10 which was taken out in end June 1992.

11 Q. And was he taken out only once or did you see him being taken on

12 several occasions?

13 A. I think he was interrogated several times.

14 Q. When you say "interrogated," do you actually mean these beatings

15 that you described to us or do you mean something else?

16 A. I think that in the beginning, we thought of that as

17 interrogations and that is why I used this term. In the beginning, the

18 guards, when they were taking out prisoners, they said it was for

19 interrogation.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 1.00.

22 JUDGE HUNT: We'll be adjourning until 2.20, I remind you, rather

23 than 2.30, and we will adjourn this afternoon at 3.20. So until 2.20,

24 according to the court clock.

25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

Page 3795

1 --- On resuming at 2.22 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all I would

4 like to apologise to my learned friend for interrupting the continuation

5 of her examination; however, I would like to clarify a matter that I

6 believe is quite urgent.

7 We got a message from a psychologist who we wanted to call as an

8 expert, namely, Ms. Ana Najman does not now exactly how she is supposed to

9 present her findings. Does she come to findings of her own and then send

10 these findings to the representative of the OTP, or is she supposed to

11 work together with a representative of the OTP, that is to say, the person

12 who will be present during the examination of the accused? I've been

13 asked by her to clarify this so that she could come to her findings as

14 soon as possible.

15 JUDGE HUNT: My understanding, and I'll check it with the

16 Prosecution in a moment, is that there is a joint examination so that

17 there can be discussion between the two experts, but each is expected to

18 give an independent advice or opinion. Does that make it clear enough for

19 you?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Do you have anything to say, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we actually also thought it

23 would be this way, and we actually were advised by our expert that they

24 usually work in this way. The psychologist makes the tests in the

25 presence of the psychiatrists, and the results of the tests is later on

Page 3796

1 discussed with -- by both of them.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. They don't have to agree upon the results, but

3 they should be there and the opportunity is there for them to discuss the

4 matter with each other. If they come to an agreement, all the better; if

5 they don't, it doesn't matter. We want independent reports anyway.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I understood that.

7 However, I'm interested in the written version. What should be presented

8 in writing?

9 JUDGE HUNT: Her own opinion.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Of one expert, you mean? Does our

11 expert send his or her opinion to the expert of the Prosecutor, or do they

12 work on this opinion together in writing and do they then defend it here,

13 or ...

14 JUDGE HUNT: I thought I'd made it reasonably clear. It is open

15 to them to discuss it amongst each other, and one would hope that they

16 will. But each is responsible for writing his or her own report, and the

17 other one may comment upon it, the first doctor's report, if they wish.

18 But there is no suggestion that it has to be a joint report or that they

19 have to be working together on each other's reports. They are independent

20 reports, and they are independent opinions, but one hopes that they will

21 discuss the matter before they come to their own opinions.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, actually our psychiatrist has

23 informed us that he needs the results -- she needs the result of

24 Mrs. Najman because the tests done by Ms. Najman are tests only conducted

25 by psychologists.

Page 3797












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3798

1 JUDGE HUNT: I see.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And she needs the test results. She needs

3 them for her report.


5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Because she cannot conduct the tests herself.

6 JUDGE HUNT: I thought that there may be the provision of

7 reports at the time of the consultation, at least, the results of the

8 testing; but if they haven't, then clearly the psychiatrist needs the

9 psychologist's report. But what we are seeking to have from them is at

10 least the opportunity for each to consider the other's opinions on the

11 matter.

12 But they are to be independent opinions expressed in the end.

13 Now, does that make it clear?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And, Your Honour, for your information,

15 the tests and also the discussion with the accused have already been

16 conducted, and our expert said as soon as she has the results of the

17 tests, she needs something like two or three days to make her own report.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. And then she will give it to Miss or

19 Mrs. Najman so she will have the opportunity of commenting on them as she

20 wishes just as the psychiatrists will no doubt comment upon anything

21 Ms. Najman produces.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Thank you very much.

24 Does that clear it up?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I think it's clear

Page 3799

1 to me. I'm going to instruct our expert to write her own opinion and then

2 to send that kind of report to the OTP or, rather, their expert. Then I

3 expect the expert of the OTP to send his or her opinion to our expert.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Exactly. Right. Let's get on with the doctor's

5 evidence.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. Your Honour, I'm receiving a lot

7 of noise. Do you also receive all this background ...

8 JUDGE HUNT: We're not so fortunate.


10 Q. Witness, before the break we spoke about Halim Konjo, and I would

11 like to know from you --

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise, but I

13 can't hear my learned friend at all. I hear all sorts of voices and noise

14 coming from some other room apparently.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Are you using channel 6?

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, somebody up in the control booth there can sort

18 this one out.

19 [Registrar and Trial Chamber confer]

20 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want something said as a test? Can you hear

21 the translation now?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much for the assistance from the

24 booth.

25 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

Page 3800


2 Q. Dr. Berberkic, we spoke about Halim Konjo, and you mentioned that

3 he was taken to the administration building on several occasions. Did you

4 see him return on any of these occasions with injuries?

5 A. I saw him twice, I think, and he had bruises on his face. It

6 looked like injuries sustained due to blows, that is to say, haematoma,

7 swellings underneath the eyes, things like that.

8 Q. Whenever he was taken in this time period, did you hear the sounds

9 of the beating and screaming?

10 A. Yes, I did hear that, but I cannot say for sure whose voice it

11 was. I wasn't that close to him. I cannot say for sure.

12 Q. When you saw him for the last time being taken, did he disappear

13 after that?

14 A. He's in that group of prisoners that was taken away around the end

15 of June 1992. He never returned to the room. I have no information. I

16 don't know what happened to him. I heard that some people from the work

17 group allegedly saw his corpse in the hospital, in the morgue there.

18 Q. Who from the work group? Do you know?

19 A. That was detainee FWS-210.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-13 and B-33 where this

21 person is mentioned.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


24 Q. Kruno Marinovic. Do you know him and did you see him in the

25 KP Dom?

Page 3801

1 A. I did not know him personally from before, but my detainees showed

2 me this person, told me who he was. He was also beaten several times. I

3 saw him through the window. He was in Room 1 [sic].

4 His injuries were more or less similar to the injuries sustained

5 by the other prisoners who were taken out at that time. His face was

6 swollen, he had swellings, haematoma. Swellings around the eyes, that is.

7 Q. And after the last time that you saw him being taken, did he

8 disappear as the others that we have mentioned before?

9 A. He disappeared together with this group of people. He never, he

10 never reappeared, never, since June 1992.

11 Q. At least the translation that we got was that he was in Room 1. I

12 suppose you mean building 1. Is that right, that he was in building 1?

13 A. I meant building 1.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under

15 C-17 and 5.27.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


18 Q. Zulfo Veiz, do you know him?

19 A. I know him well. He was a policeman in Foca. He belonged to this

20 group of people. I saw him several times in the KP Dom. He was beaten

21 several times, taken out to the gate. He had haematomas. I think that

22 his right eye was almost closed.

23 Q. And where was he in the buildings?

24 A. Building 1.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under

Page 3802

1 C-29 and 5.27.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


4 Q. Munib Veiz, do you know this person as well?

5 A. I know Munib Veiz from before. He was in camp in building 1. I

6 think he was in a room on the first floor, but I'm not sure, but he was in

7 building 1 for sure. I saw him a few times. He had lost lots of weight

8 although he had spent only one month in prison. He was taken out several

9 times for beatings. He wore a leather jacket since he worked in a shop

10 that belonged to Visoko. He was selling leather goods as well.

11 The last time he was taken out with a group of people, this was

12 the end of June 1992. I remember the blows exactly, this characteristic

13 sound when a baton hits leather. It's a soft sound but yet a

14 reverberating sound when something hits leather. However, I didn't hear a

15 word from him. He never returned again. I never saw him in prison since

16 then.

17 Q. And you said that you -- he was taken several times. Did you see

18 him returning on these other occasions, when he returned, with injuries?

19 A. I saw him. I think he had injuries on his face and lips.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under

21 C-28 and B-59.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


24 Q. Kemo Dzelilovic, do you know him?

25 A. I know Kemo Dzelilovic. He was in the KP Dom in building 1. He

Page 3803

1 belongs to this group of people who went missing the end of June 1992. I

2 did not notice any injuries on him.

3 Q. Did you see him being taken several times for beatings, or only

4 that one time when he disappeared?

5 A. I think that he was not taken out several times. I think that he

6 was taken out only once, that being the last time as well.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under

8 C-7 and B-19.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


11 Q. Kuloglija, Mustafa, did you see him in the KP Dom?

12 A. I know him from before. He was at the KP Dom in building 1. He

13 belonged to this group of people who had gone missing. I did not notice

14 any signs of violence on him, at least, not that I can remember. I don't

15 think he had been beaten several times.

16 Q. When you say he belonged to the group that went missing in June,

17 do you always refer to these people who were beaten and then disappeared?

18 Is that what you mean?

19 A. I mean the group of people who were taken away in the interval

20 between mid-June and the end of June 1992. I think that then the --

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can no longer hear the witness,

22 no sound whatsoever.

23 JUDGE HUNT: We've lost the whole sound.

24 A. I am referring to the group of people who were taken away from

25 mid-June 1992 until the end of June the same year, and I think that then

Page 3804

1 about 40 persons were taken out of the camp. I tried to make a list, and

2 I know about 37 people for sure, but I think that there were a few more.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, please.


5 Q. And after each of these people were taken, did you always hear the

6 sound of beatings?

7 A. In the beginning, these were sounds of beatings, mistreatment.

8 However, I think that at the end of June - it could have been St. Vitus'

9 Day, the 28th of June - I think I heard gunshots as well. Yes. Yes, I

10 did hear gunshots then.

11 The question is whether it was actually on the 28th or after that,

12 but I do maintain it was the end of June.

13 Q. But we were talking about several people. Up till now and

14 whenever they were taken, including the last -- Mustafa Kuloglija, did you

15 always hear the sound of beating?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Mustafa Kuloglija is under C-15.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


20 Q. Do you know Fuad Mandzo?

21 A. I know Fuad Mandzo. I think that he was captured as a fighting

22 man somewhere around the hospital. He was beaten on several occasions,

23 and he is also one of the persons belonging to that group that were taken

24 out towards the end of June 1992. However, I cannot remember whether he

25 had any injuries on his face or on his body.

Page 3805

1 Q. Fuad Mandzo, how old was he and what was he doing? What was his

2 job?

3 A. He was born the same year I was, but I don't know what he was by

4 profession. I know him. We were together at a federal work drive for

5 young people many years ago, but I don't know what he actually did.

6 Q. And where did he live in Foca, in which neighbourhood? Do you

7 know that?

8 A. I don't know where he lived, in which part of town.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's the person C-16.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


12 Q. Enes Uzunovic, was he in the KP Dom?

13 A. Enes Uzunovic worked together with me in the hospital. I know him

14 well. I think he was brought from the hospital to the KP Dom. He was

15 beaten several times. He was taken out for interrogations as well. Signs

16 of beatings and violence could be seen on him.

17 I would say that these were standard injuries sustained by persons

18 who were beaten, that is to say, swellings on their faces, eyes that were

19 shut, haematoma. He is one of the people who went missing towards the end

20 of June 1992.

21 Q. And Mr. Uzunovic, in which room was he? Do you know that?

22 A. He went out of building 1. I don't know exactly. Later, after he

23 was taken out, through certain channels I got his coat. His coat was all

24 bloody. I tried to wash the blood off the coat but I didn't manage to,

25 and I tried several times. I simply wouldn't wash the blood off.

Page 3806












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3807

1 Q. How do you know that it was his coat?

2 A. I know because I saw him wearing that coat. He had that coat in

3 prison.

4 Q. And when you say through "channels" you got it, what kind of

5 channels were that?

6 A. Some of the prisoners who were in his room. I can't remember who

7 exactly. He left that coat, actually. Then one of the prisoners, when he

8 came to my room, he gave me the coat and said that it was his coat. Of

9 course I recognised the coat too because several times I saw him go out in

10 that coat. He wore that coat when he went to work in the hospital as

11 well.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, its the person C-26.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


15 Q. Mate Ivancic. Do you know him?

16 A. I know Mate Ivancic well. He worked at the ear, nose, and throat

17 department in the Foca hospital. I think that he was also brought to the

18 KP Dom from his working place. I saw him in the camp. I cannot confirm

19 whether he was beaten or not. However, he was one of the people who were

20 taken out towards the end of June 1992.

21 Q. And was he -- in which building was he detained?

22 A. I think that he was also in building 1.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-11.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


Page 3808

1 Q. Meha Pasalic. Do you know this person?

2 A. I know a person called Mehmed Pasalic. It is probably one in the

3 same person. His nickname was Meha. He had a private business of his

4 own, a shop in a part of town called Cohodar Mahala. He was in building

5 1. He was also taken out of the KP Dom towards the end of June 1992. I

6 think that he had been beaten and mistreated, but I can't remember what

7 his face looked like. I cannot remember the injuries that he might have

8 had.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is listed in B-43.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


12 Q. This group of people that you now mentioned that disappeared in

13 this period, did a Kemal Tulek belong to this group?

14 A. Yes, yes, yes. Kemal Tulek did belong to this group of people.

15 Q. Who was he, and what can you tell us about him and his

16 disappearance?

17 A. He was a policeman from Foca. I know him. I think he was in

18 solitary confinement in building 3. He was taken out several times for

19 interrogations, and he was interrogated. I think he was beaten, too.

20 Q. Why do you think that? Did you see anything on him, or why?

21 A. I saw injuries that were typical, typical of blows that are

22 administered with a hand or something else, with certain changes on his

23 face, haematoma. Haematoma in different stages, that is, in different

24 stages of development, I should say. He was taken out towards the end of

25 June 1992, and he is one of the people in this group that went missing.

Page 3809

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-25.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


4 Q. And Ramo Dzendusic?

5 A. Ramo Dzendusic was in my room, Room 16. I think he was a

6 retiree. I think he had retired before the war. He was interrogated

7 once. He went out of my room for an interrogation. He was terrified, and

8 he said to me that he probably wouldn't survive. And I said, "What does

9 that mean? How come?" And he said, approximately, that they knew quite a

10 few things about him, and that he stood a very slim chance of surviving.

11 He belongs to this group of people who were taken out in June 1992.

12 Q. Did you -- before he was taken away in this group and did not

13 return, did he return from beatings? Could you see injuries on him?

14 A. No. I couldn't notice any signs of violence on his face, although

15 he was frightened.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under

17 C-8 and B-20.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


20 Q. Of all these men you just mentioned and gave us some details

21 about, did you hear later on after your release that they are missing, or

22 did you never hear anything about them from relatives or other sources?

23 A. I personally believe that these people were killed, that they are

24 not alive. Why am I saying this? Because I think -- in fact, I heard a

25 very characteristic sound of a car with a defective exhaust pipe, and this

Page 3810

1 car used to come and go during the night at the time when these people

2 were being taken out of the KP Dom. In a conversation I had later with

3 Witness FWS-210, he told me that he had an opportunity to see that car

4 covered with blood, as he put it. I think it was a caddy type of vehicle

5 produced by the Zastava factory in Kragujevac.

6 After I was released from the camp, I talked to people from Kemal

7 Tulek's family, and they seemed to have information that he was not

8 alive. Some people contacted me about other inmates such as Munib Veiz,

9 Dico, Zulfo Veiz. I had occasion to talk to the man who buried the

10 corpses which flowed downstream towards -- from Foca, and he claimed that

11 he had buried the corpse of Munib Veiz. I don't know whether that is true

12 or not, but in any case, I don't think that these people are still alive.

13 Q. And this person you mentioned that claimed he had buried Munib

14 Veiz, who would that be? Who was that?

15 A. I met that person in Sarajevo after being released from the

16 prison. His last name is Subasic. I cannot remember his first name, but

17 I believe he's still alive.

18 Q. And do you know the profession of this person?

19 A. I think he was a raftsman. He had a raft.

20 Q. Now, you mentioned, you just mentioned the name Dico. I don't --

21 who is that? We have not yet discussed a person Dico.

22 A. It's a "B," Bico.

23 Q. Then I misunderstood you, sorry.

24 Those beatings that you just described, when did they start -- in

25 the evening, I mean, on the days, when did they usually start and when did

Page 3811

1 they usually end?

2 A. A large number of these people were taken away after lunch. Lunch

3 was sometime around 1.00. It took about an hour or two perhaps. So these

4 people were mainly taken away after 3.00 p.m.

5 Q. And these beatings, how long did they last? I'm only referring to

6 this group of beatings that you just described having occurred in the

7 second half of June.

8 A. I think the beatings went on until night-time, maybe 10.00 or

9 11.00 p.m.

10 Q. You said that you also on the 28th heard shots. Is it only

11 once -- on one evening that you heard the shots or did you hear shots on

12 several occasions?

13 A. I think it was the 28th. It could have been in the evening. I

14 can't say what time. There were at least five shots. And in the days

15 that followed I also heard shooting there, but I think those were single

16 shots. But on that day, which I think was the 28th, there were several

17 shots, I think five.

18 Q. When did you hear the shots, during the beatings or after the

19 beatings?

20 A. After the beating; during the night.

21 Q. Do you recall which detainees were taken on this occasion when you

22 heard the shots?

23 A. No. No, I can't say the names with any certainty.

24 Q. Yes. Thank you. Do you know a person, a detainee Esad Kiselica?

25 A. I know Esad Kiselica. He was in the same room with me.

Page 3812

1 Q. Who was he and what happened to him in the KP Dom?

2 A. I can't remember how it happened that he found himself in the

3 KP Dom. He was in the room with me and we talked, but I don't remember

4 any more how it came about.

5 Q. And who was he? Do you know his profession or his age?

6 A. He was middle-aged or elderly, I think. He had his own land. A

7 man from a village, a farmer.

8 Q. Did Mr. Kiselica belong to this group of people that disappeared

9 in this second half of June? Do you know that?

10 A. No. I don't think he was in that group.

11 Q. Do you --

12 A. I could have been taken away later, perhaps a month later, which

13 makes it July, but he doesn't belong in this group.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under

15 C-12.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


18 Q. Juso Dzamalija. Do you know him and can you tell us what happened

19 to him?

20 A. I do not know Juso Dzamalija personally, but I spoke to a man who

21 was locked up with him in a solitary cell. I spoke with Zaim Cedic, who

22 had been locked up with him, and Zaim told me that they had been in a

23 solitary cell together in building 3, that guards and soldiers came during

24 the night to beat them on several occasions. He said that Juso Dzamalija

25 got beaten up very badly, purportedly because he had a son who was a

Page 3813

1 policeman. He was in such bad shape mentally that he couldn't go out, and

2 Cedic said that Juso Dzamalija hanged himself on the bars above the door.

3 Q. When did this happen, do you know, that Dzamalija hanged himself?

4 When did it happen?

5 A. I think it was June 1992.

6 Q. And did you yourself see anything related to this incident?

7 A. I didn't see anything, not personally.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Juso Dzamalija is listed under C-6 and B-17.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


11 Q. You mentioned that Zaim Cedic told you about this. When did he

12 tell you?

13 A. He was released from solitary confinement, I think, in June 1992,

14 and he was brought to my room, Room 16.

15 Q. Who he was he? Can you tell us where he lived and what profession

16 he had?

17 A. In Tjentiste not far from Foca. He had higher education, I don't

18 know what type, but he worked in the national park of Tjentiste, which is

19 where he was arrested. And he told me he was brought to the police

20 station at Tjentiste, and one of his schoolmates was then chief of that

21 police station, and he beat him the most.

22 From there, he was transferred to the Zelengora Hotel where,

23 allegedly, the Serbian army and Serbian paramilitary formations were based

24 then, the White Eagles and so forth. The drivers who brought him called

25 out to soldiers who came out from the hotel and started beating him. One

Page 3814

1 of those soldiers pulled out a knife and made a cut in his ear. They

2 powered a kilo of salt onto a plate and forced him to eat it, and then

3 they gave him a litre of water to drink. And then they took him away.

4 Q. You said that he was in the isolation cell in building 3. Was he

5 beaten there as well? Did he tell you anything?

6 A. He said that he had been beaten several times. He said that he

7 had been confused with another man with the same name from Tjentiste. He

8 was taken several times to the gate for interrogation, and he said in

9 these words that Zoran Vladicic had told him it was a mistake, and that

10 they were after another man with the same first and last names.

11 And while he was in solitary confinement, he was beaten several

12 times. He was very frightened. He knew nothing about his family who had

13 fled somewhere towards Tjentiste. He was very pale and very scared.

14 Q. And what became of him? Was he also taken away, and is he

15 missing? Do you know?

16 A. He disappeared in July 1992, in mid-July, and since then has been

17 registered as missing.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under

19 B-11.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


22 Q. Do you know Esad Mezbur?

23 A. Esad Mezbur is familiar to me. He was in the KP Dom on one of the

24 upper floors in building 1, but I don't know what happened to him in the

25 end. I believe he was in the group of men who seemed to have been taken

Page 3815












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3816

1 to be exchanged around the 29th or 30th of August to Rozaje. And that bus

2 seems to have been returned to the KP Dom, and on the next morning the

3 group was split in two groups. One of the subgroups survived, and the

4 other hasn't been heard of. I think he was in that group which did not

5 survive.

6 Q. Did you see him in the KP Dom being beaten or with injuries that

7 indicated that he was beaten?

8 A. I saw him in the KP Dom, but I didn't notice any signs of violence

9 on his face.

10 Q. Do you know a person Hasim Mezbur? Is he related to Esad?

11 A. I know there is a person by the name of Asim Mezbur; I don't know

12 of any Hasim. Maybe it's the same person.

13 Q. Asim and Esad, are these different persons?

14 A. Asim and Esad Mezbur, those are two different persons, but I don't

15 think there is anyone named Hasim. There is an Asim, though.

16 Q. Yes, and what can you tell us about Asim?

17 A. He was in the KP Dom, and I knew him from before. He was a

18 private entrepreneur from Foca. He was said to have been a rich man, and

19 I saw him several times. He was in building 1. I don't know which room.

20 He was on that bus which had set out to Rozaje and then came back

21 to the KP Dom, and the next morning they left the KP Dom again on two

22 buses. He was in one of them, and he was in the group which was later

23 never heard of again.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Esad Mezbur is listed under

25 B-41, and Asim Mezbur is not listed.

Page 3817

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


3 Q. Do you know a Halim Dedovic? Do you know who that was and if he

4 was beaten in the KP Dom?

5 A. I know Halim Dedovic well. At the time, I was in Room 16. One

6 night the guard simply threw a man into our room. We couldn't see who it

7 was. It was dark. He was badly beaten up. His entire body was swollen.

8 He was very frightened; he was crying. He had a beard and he had a denim

9 jacket and jeans. We recognised him as our barber from Foca, whom we all

10 knew very well.

11 We tried to get him to calm down, but he was very frightened,

12 scared out of his wits, and when he calmed down a little, he told us that

13 for seven days he had been locked up in the basement of the administrative

14 building, as he put it, and he said that there is a metal ring on the

15 concrete floor there somewhere, and he said that he had been beaten. I

16 asked him, "Who beat you?" but he wouldn't tell me. He just said, "I

17 know." I don't think there is anyone whom he told who it was that beat

18 him.

19 The reason seems to have been that he was trying to extinguish the

20 fire at the mosque which was burning. He was trying to save the mosque in

21 Gornje Polje, and they tried to torch it several times. The next morning,

22 they came to his door and picked him up.

23 He disappeared from the KP Dom on the 11th of December, 1992, in a

24 group of 12 men. I remember Aziz Sahinovic, a Slovene journalist, was in

25 that group. What is special about this group is that Aziz Sahinovic was

Page 3818

1 then with that -- in my room, Room 18, together with the barber, and we

2 were later transferred to Room 16. And the night before that, they

3 singled out a group of men and took them to a separate room, and just

4 before dawn, they took them out of the KP Dom. I remember hearing

5 footsteps of the prisoners that morning - I think it was before dawn - the

6 footsteps prisoners who were leaving the KP Dom. It was still dark.

7 Halim Dedovic has never been heard of since. He's registered as

8 missing, together with the other 12 people from that group, including

9 Fahrudin Magdic. I later -- this Fahrudin Magdic was nicknamed Baron. I

10 later asked Gojko about him because I knew they were friends with Baron,

11 and he said that Baron had called him from Montenegro.

12 Q. Let's first return to Halim Dedovic. Was he beaten while he was

13 in the KP Dom, after this incident when you said he was thrown into your

14 room? Was he taken out for our beatings in the KP Dom?

15 A. No, not that I know of.

16 Q. And on this occasion when he was thrown into your room after

17 having been locked up in the administration building, did you see injuries

18 on him?

19 A. Yes. He had injuries on his face at varying stages of

20 development, starting with blue and yellow haematomas around the eye. He

21 had a beard, so you could only see the area around the eye.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is listed under

23 5.23, and I think the witness was just referring to this incident, but

24 he's also listed under A-6 and B-13.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That may be an appropriate time.

Page 3819

1 Now, we're starting off with a videolink witness first thing in

2 the morning.


4 JUDGE HUNT: How long do we expect that witness to take so we can

5 give the doctor the some idea when he can return.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It will probably take the entire day because

7 I assume Defence counsel have a lot of questions to ask from this other

8 witness. So it will probably take the entire day.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Doctor, I'm sorry we have to interrupt your

10 evidence, but there is a very highly complicated technical procedure we're

11 adopting tomorrow to take the evidence of a witness by videolink. It's

12 fixed for tomorrow, so we will have to return to you on Thursday. But

13 thank you for coming, and we'll see you again on Thursday.

14 Very well. We will adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow.

15 It's not a closed court, is it? No. That's another one.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, it is closed session.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at, 3.20 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day

20 of March, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.