Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4261

1 Wednesday, 21 March 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This is the

8 case number IT-97-25-T; the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

10 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours,


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Smith: [Continued]

14 Q. Good morning, Witness. Mr. Masovic, there's just a couple of

15 matters I'd like to clear up from yesterday. In the transcript it appears

16 that when I asked you the question as to how many bodies were exhumed from

17 Foca municipality and the answer was 436; is that correct?

18 A. No, that is not correct. 430 bodies were exhumed in the territory

19 of the municipality of Foca.

20 Q. Thank you. Also, you referred to the document 240/5 which is the

21 list of people you have recorded missing at your office and were last seen

22 at the Foca KP Dom, and I asked you some further questions as to whether

23 or not you had on record anyone else that is still recorded as missing and

24 last seen at the KP Dom, and you stated there were about 35 people that

25 weren't on that list.

Page 4262

1 A. I said at least 35 more.

2 Q. And just so it's clear for the record, what is the reason why

3 they're not on the list that you've provided to the Court?

4 A. These 35 at least are not on the list because we could not confirm

5 from at least two independent sources that they were last seen alive at

6 the KP Dom Foca.

7 Q. Thank you. And before we finished yesterday, we were discussing

8 the method in which people reported either friends or other people they

9 knew missing to your office during the war. You mentioned that you

10 received written reports from local authorities, the police, the military,

11 the Red Cross. You also received on some occasions witness statements and

12 intelligence reports. You also mentioned that you received oral reports

13 from friends and family of the missing person.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, I know you've discussed this in relation to the details taken

16 in relation to your exhumation records, but can you clearly outline the

17 information that was recorded by either you or your staff from the friends

18 or family that contacted your office as to the details of the missing

19 person.

20 A. This information was taken over by my staff in Sarajevo

21 headquarters and also in the regional offices throughout Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina where these offices operated. And also we got some of our

23 information from the records of the ICRC.

24 Q. And what information would you ask your staff to record on the

25 computer when these reports were made?

Page 4263

1 A. The name and surname of the missing person, father's name, date of

2 birth, place of birth, place of residence, place and date of disappearance

3 of the said person, then also a designation that was used by the delegates

4 of the ICRC. If some of their staff visited a certain person at a camp or

5 prison, there was a so-called BAS number that was assigned to such a

6 person. And then also there was information included about the person

7 since the person went missing. For example, there would be remarks

8 stating that, in the meantime, that particular person had been exhumed,

9 and that closed the case as far as that person was concerned.

10 Q. And yesterday you mentioned two types of situations where someone

11 may come to your office or rang up your office where they provided

12 information as to one particular person that went missing or a large

13 number of people that they knew of that went missing, and you stated that

14 in the cases where someone had information about a large number of people

15 going missing, you would personally speak to those people.

16 A. Yes, that is correct. If these were characteristic cases, namely,

17 cases of a massive disappearance of persons at a given location, then I

18 would directly talk to the witness or family member who had such

19 knowledge. In other cases, my officials worked on them.

20 Q. And when you recorded that information or spoke to that person,

21 how did you record it and when did it go on to the database?

22 A. It was recorded in the internal files, the statements; and then

23 the core of these statements would go into the computer database, the

24 name, surname, father's name, things like that which I already mentioned.

25 Q. And of the documentary information that you received at your

Page 4264

1 office, how long after would that be placed into the computer database

2 after it was received?

3 A. The same day, if it was a simple case, that is to say, if one

4 missing person had been reported. And if it was only the first part,

5 namely the initial stage of the conflict, when it was not

6 possible to enter the date on the same day, then the maximum deadline had

7 to be between 15 to 30 days before such data were actually entered in the

8 database.

9 Q. And after that data had been entered from the written document,

10 where would that go? Would that be filed?

11 A. These are not classical files. All these documents have been

12 preserved, though, and they are in the offices at the headquarters of the

13 state commission in Sarajevo.

14 Q. And in relation to the other situation where a person reported

15 someone missing but had no real further information about large numbers of

16 others, you mentioned that your staff would take those reports?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And would they enter that information straight onto the computer,

19 or would they record it in hard copy, then transfer it at a later time?

20 A. In the first period they were entered directly into the computer,

21 and over the last three years, all family members fill out a form in their

22 own hand by themselves, including additional pieces of information.

23 During my testimony yesterday, I pointed out that it is quite certain that

24 all 23.000 persons who are missing in Bosnia-Herzegovina are dead by now.

25 That is why we enter data concerning characteristic details like the

Page 4265

1 clothes that the persons wore when they went missing. We need this as

2 additional information assisting the identification of such persons if

3 they are found. So for the past three years, family members have been

4 filling out this questionnaire where they describe the clothes that the

5 person wore, jewellery, and perhaps even some anthropological

6 characteristics; whether the person concerned is tall, short, whether the

7 person's bones had been fractured in the past, things like that.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, I would be interested to know what is the

9 volume of such inquiries or people filling out forms. It might give us

10 some idea of how much weight to be given to this material.


12 Q. Mr. Masovic, you've mentioned that people in the last three years

13 have provided further information on these forms. About how many of the

14 people that have reported people missing have done that? You've

15 mentioned that there's a figure of 23.000, and I assume you're talking

16 about Bosnia-Herzegovina; 23.000 missing in Bosnia.

17 JUDGE HUNT: That's what he said.

18 MR. SMITH: It wasn't clear to me, Your Honour.

19 A. May I add something? The number of persons who went missing who

20 are recorded is 27.719; however, in various morgues all over

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina there were over 4.000 victims that haven't been

22 identified so far. That is why I'm speaking about the number of 23.000,

23 although the grand total is 27.719.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak slower.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, the interpreters are having trouble with the

Page 4266

1 speed at which you speak, so could you please speak -- especially when

2 you're giving figures, so would you please speak a bit more slowly.

3 What we want to know is how many people have filled out these

4 forms or have made inquiries from you over the last three years?

5 A. I cannot give a precise figure, but I think that by now we have

6 over 3.000 questionnaires that were filled out by closest family members.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


9 Q. And the 23.000 figure relates to missing Bosnian Muslims or people

10 of all ethnicity from Bosnia?

11 A. Persons of all ethnicity from Bosnia, all citizens of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. And how many of them are Bosnian Muslim citizens?

14 A. Over 95 per cent are Bosnian Muslims. About 4 per cent are

15 Bosnian Serbs, a bit less than 1 per cent are Bosnian Croats, and a small

16 number -- I think about 260-something persons belong to the category of

17 other ethnic groups that lived in the territory of the former Yugoslavia

18 or possibly some other European states.

19 Q. And once a person has been recorded missing with the state

20 commission, apart from these forms that were filled out by some people,

21 were any further inquiries made to update this information to confirm the

22 accuracy of the initial reports?

23 A. Every day, every day this information is updated in order to

24 confirm the accuracy of the information we receive on the ground. If a

25 witness or a family member comes by a new piece of information or if our

Page 4267

1 investigators come by a new piece of information, and also if there are

2 extra findings concerning the identification of witnesses, every day

3 information is updated.

4 Q. Do you cross check your information with any other records, such

5 as the Red Cross or any other sources, once you've recorded people

6 missing?

7 A. Yes, but I would like to point out that their information is

8 scantier because they record missing persons only if family members have

9 reported them as such, whereas we have broader criteria, and I already

10 explained at the beginning of my testimony who are all the persons and

11 organisations that can submit information to us in order to register

12 persons as missing.

13 Q. And after the person has been recorded with your office in the

14 last eight years or so, do you contact the local municipal authorities to

15 inquire as to whether or not this person is still recorded missing, or

16 update the information? Local authorities from where they formerly

17 resided.

18 A. Yes. Since local municipal authorities have very close contact

19 with family members, these are persons who are not staying at their homes

20 now. They're displaced all over the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or

21 rather, all over Europe and the world. They have close contact with

22 family members, and from time to time, say every six months or every year,

23 we contact the local authorities of individual municipalities in order to

24 check whether in the meantime the situation has perhaps changed in terms

25 of the number of missing persons and other data concerning such persons.

Page 4268

1 Q. Now, we've been talking generally here about your general method,

2 but in relation to these particular lists, the lists of the missing people

3 from Foca municipality and the people missing from Foca KP Dom, in

4 preparation for your testimony today, have you conducted any further

5 checks on top of what you normally do in relation to missing persons

6 recorded at your office?

7 A. Yes. All the material that is related to missing persons that has

8 been submitted to the OTP has been checked out with the local authorities

9 of the municipality of Foca, as compared to the information held by the

10 ICRC, and also in correlation with statements made by former inmates at

11 the KP Dom if we're talking about that prison, or also statements given by

12 witnesses who had not been at the KP Dom Foca.

13 Q. And in your experience with the State Commission for the Tracing

14 of Missing Persons, how many false reports are you aware of, or are you

15 aware of any, in relation to missing persons recorded at your office?

16 A. There were attempts to report some persons as missing, although

17 they did not go missing. However, we would usually consult local police

18 authorities and then realise that this was false reporting. I can perhaps

19 remember three such attempts over the past eight or nine years that I have

20 been heading these offices.

21 Q. Now, based on the documents that you've provided, 240/4 and 240/5,

22 in relation to missing people from Foca and the Foca KP Dom, I'm going to

23 ask you some general questions about them. How many people have been

24 reported as still missing from Foca? What is the number?

25 A. The number of missing persons is 730. However, the persons -- the

Page 4269












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4270

1 number of actually missing persons needs to include an additional figure

2 of 413 Bosniak and Bosnian Croats. There has been testimony to the effect

3 that they were killed; however, their bodies have not been located yet.

4 In accordance with local Bosnian regulations, they are still considered to

5 be missing.

6 So the number in Foca now is 730 - we have no information about

7 them as to whether they are dead or alive - plus 413 persons whom

8 witnesses claim they had seen dead.

9 Q. And of the 730 that are on your missing list, can you say what

10 ethnicity these people are?

11 A. Out of these 730, I think that a vast, vast majority, over 90 per

12 cent, are Bosnian Muslims, and there's a small percentage of Bosnian

13 Croats. However, in the territory of the municipality of Foca before the

14 war, between 1991 and 1992, there were about 100 Croats living there, so

15 their percentage of missing persons is less than 1 per cent.

16 Q. And of the 730 missing, how many of them are female?

17 A. I cannot remember that particular figure, so I'll have to look at

18 this. 18 per cent, or 133 persons, are of the female sex.

19 Q. And from your records, is it indicated what role these people

20 played in the conflict, if any, if they were civilians, if they were

21 soldiers, or do your records not show that?

22 A. These records include civilians only.

23 Q. Now, you said in relation to a document 240/5, the document

24 relating to missing persons last seen at KP Dom, that the 266 people you

25 have recorded there are supported by two sources to that fact.

Page 4271

1 A. At least two sources.

2 Q. And of these 266 missing people, how many of them are supported by

3 a source or a report from a family member; can you say?

4 A. I think that all 266 were originally reported by family members.

5 Q. And what is the next most predominant source used to support this

6 information? You said family member appears to be the most predominant

7 source. What is the next most significant source?

8 A. Actually, in terms of importance, we believe that the most

9 important evidence is provided by co-inmates, that is to say, persons who

10 spent some time at the KP Dom together with these persons at the KP Dom

11 and were perhaps exchanged after that or released due to their age or

12 other reasons. We believe that testimony given by such persons who were

13 inmates at the KP Dom are the most important.

14 Family members can say that their missing family member had been

15 taken in the direction of the KP Dom; however, we do not necessarily know

16 whether such a person ended up at the KP Dom. That is why we consider the

17 testimony of former camp inmates to be the most reliable.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid, sir, the interpreters are still having

20 trouble with the speed at which you speak. They usually have a valid

21 complaint about the speed at which I speak, but you are speaking more

22 quickly than I am. So please, sir, do slow down.


24 Q. Can you say from the document how many of these 266 people have

25 been reported as missing from the KP Dom by former inmates?

Page 4272

1 A. I really cannot give any precise information to that effect;

2 however, a vast majority have been confirmed by former inmates. A

3 relatively small -- a relatively big group of inmates was exchanged in

4 October 1994 from the KP Dom in Foca and were taken to Sarajevo where they

5 were exchanged at the confrontation line, so these inmates testified about

6 that, namely, who out of these 266 spent some time with them at the KP

7 Dom.

8 Some of the inmates also testified that some of the persons who

9 are on this list were allegedly taken out for an exchange, yet others were

10 taken out to do some kind of work, to work in a mine, pick plums, et

11 cetera. However, their families testified later, and we came to realise,

12 that these persons had not been exchanged, that they had never appeared on

13 territory that was held by government forces.

14 Q. And apart from these two particular sources, the family member and

15 former detainees, what other specific sources were used for this

16 document?

17 A. The International Committee of the Red Cross is also a very

18 relevant source of information about this in order to have a person

19 considered missing.

20 Q. And were any documents used from the Bosnian Serb authorities?

21 A. No. We don't know of such documents except in one case when we

22 received from the ICRC one document titled something like "Prisoners

23 reported by Serbian authorities but never seen or visited by ICRC

24 representatives." That is the only document drafted by the ICRC based on

25 data received from Serbian authorities.

Page 4273

1 Q. And if you look at the document 240/7 in your folder, is that the

2 document you're referring to?

3 A. Yes, that is precisely the document I've mentioned.

4 Q. And you mentioned that you received that document from the Red

5 Cross?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. Where did you receive it?

8 A. In keeping with the Dayton Accords, a special working group of the

9 ICRC was established which works on the tracing of missing persons in the

10 entire territory of the former Yugoslavia, and one of the sessions of this

11 working group handed this document over to us. It was also handed over to

12 representatives of the Serbian commission so as to enable them to answer

13 the question, "What happened to these people who are recorded as former

14 inmates?"

15 I note that many names are listed there, and only a part of the

16 names refer to former inmates of the KP Dom Foca, whereas other persons

17 listed there were imprisoned in other camps on the territory held by

18 Bosnian Serb authorities.

19 Q. And when did you receive this document?

20 A. I believe it was at one of the sessions which took place two and a

21 half, maybe even three or three and a half years ago. There have been, so

22 far, about 15 sessions of this working group, and it was perhaps the

23 fourth or the fifth session which handed this document over to us.

24 Q. And at this working group, did the Red Cross explain the nature of

25 the document and what it was to you and to the other members of the

Page 4274

1 group?

2 A. Yes. We were told that these persons were inmates recorded in

3 Serbian prisons. And our commission also received a document containing

4 names of Serbs who are believed to have gone missing, disappeared in camps

5 which were controlled by legal authorities.

6 Q. And did the Red Cross representative explain how they received

7 this information from the Serb authorities?

8 A. I cannot remember exactly at this moment, but if I may say so, I

9 know from some media, Serb media reports that I followed, that there was a

10 polemic between Dragan Kalinic who was blamed for allegedly handing over

11 this document to the ICRC in Geneva from the authorities of the KP Dom in

12 Foca, but this is only something that I know from, from following press

13 reports. I don't know how reliable that is.

14 Q. If you can now look at document 240/6. Do you recognise that

15 document?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And was that prepared by your office?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what does that document show?

20 A. This document is actually an analysis of the previous document we

21 discussed. After having reviewed all the names of prisoners reported by

22 Serbian authorities, we made an additional effort to establish whether

23 perhaps some of these people have survived and are still registered as

24 missing. And we arrived at this document which contains the names of 90

25 persons who are still believed to be missing today and are registered as

Page 4275

1 such by the state commission. And the overwhelming majority, perhaps all

2 of them, are registered with the International Commission of the Red

3 Cross, and we believe that other prisoners, those who are not on this

4 list, have actually been exchanged.

5 So this is a list of persons which have been reported by camp

6 authorities on the 30th of August, 1992, and have not been exchanged or

7 released in the period that followed, that is, until the end of 1995.

8 Q. Now, this list is derived from the Red Cross list we just spoke

9 about, 240/7, but this list only relates to people detained or notified as

10 being detained at the Foca KP Dom; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. And just so that it's clear, are all of the people on this list

13 recorded as still missing at the state commission?

14 A. Yes. They are still believed and are still registered as missing

15 persons.

16 Q. If we can go back to document 240/5, which is the list of missing

17 and last seen at KP Dom, the 266 names, there's a column on the right-hand

18 side of that document that states the month of disappearance of the

19 particular individual. What does that, what does that refer to; the month

20 of disappearance from where?

21 A. These indications of month in the special rubric denoted as the

22 month of disappearance have been taken over from the ICRC database, which

23 does not necessarily mean that it was the last time the person was seen.

24 In some cases, persons were seen and taken to the KP Dom at a later date

25 than the one indicated here.

Page 4276

1 Q. So that information, if not all of it, comes from the Red Cross in

2 relation to when they disappeared generally, rather than from the KP Dom?

3 A. They originate from the Red Cross -- this information originates

4 from the Red Cross, not the KP Dom. Those people have -- were reported,

5 identified, on the 30th of August, 1992, and here in this rubric we see

6 April or May indicated, and this is the month when they were taken away

7 from their homes.

8 Q. So the fact assumed or stated in this report that these people

9 were in fact at the KP Dom, that doesn't come from the Red Cross in

10 relation to -- is that right?

11 A. This is data generated by our commission, but it has been compared

12 with other sources and checked against the database of the International

13 Red Cross.

14 Q. How many of these -- or do you know the ethnicity of the 266

15 people in this list?

16 A. If I read out all the names, I could give you my opinion, but I

17 believe all of them are Bosnian Muslims. If you give me a second, I'll be

18 able to answer that question.

19 Yes, there is a Bosnian Croat, number 105, Mate Ivancic. I think

20 that is the only recorded instance of a missing person of other ethnicity

21 than Bosnian Muslim. There is also Krunoslav Marinovic, number 158.

22 Those are the only two Bosnian Croats.

23 JUDGE HUNT: What was that second number?

24 MR. SMITH: 158.

25 A. 158, Marinovic, Krunoslav.

Page 4277

1 MR. SMITH: Can you also --

2 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment, Mr. Smith.

3 I understand that the Prosecution's use of this list is twofold;

4 one to show attack upon the Bosnian Muslim civilian population, but also

5 in relation to appendix C, annex C. I'm not sure myself from the

6 witness's answer whether we can rely upon all of these as having been in

7 KP Dom. It may be that it just wasn't very clearly stated, but I think

8 that there seems to be something not quite clearly linking them all to KP

9 Dom.

10 So far as annex C is concerned, I suppose we must go by the

11 names. If they're the same name, we can assume that they were the one who

12 was in KP Dom. But if you want us to go any further, I think you may have

13 to get some further elucidation from the witness on that.

14 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Masovic, if we look at this list, it states that you've

16 recorded these people as missing from Foca municipality and last seen at

17 KP Dom; and you've mentioned that to get this list, to form this list,

18 you've relied on at least two sources to establish this fact as best that

19 you can.

20 The list, the list really relates to two factors; one, that the

21 person -- that the people contained in this list are still missing today;

22 and the second factor is that these people were at KP Dom, Foca KP Dom.

23 In relation to the fact that these people were at Foca KP Dom during the

24 war, do the two sources -- have you two sources that support that fact, or

25 is it -- do you have -- or do the two sources relate to the two, the two

Page 4278












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Page 4279

1 factors; one that they're missing, and one that they're at the KP Dom?

2 A. I can say with a high degree of certainty that 266 persons who are

3 on these -- on this list were really last seen in the KP Dom, and that has

4 been confirmed by at least two different sources.

5 Q. So just to be clear, those two sources that you refer to confirm

6 that these 266, or each of the 266 were at, were at the KP Dom?

7 A. That is so.

8 Q. And you also -- it may be the same sources or it may be other

9 sources, but is it the case that you also have two sources that confirm

10 that each one of these individuals is now -- is still missing today?

11 A. Of course. All of them are still on the list of missing persons.

12 The number of missing persons who spent some time in the KP Dom is much,

13 much higher than the number indicated on this list. This list contains

14 only the names of people who continue to be missing today. And in

15 addition to them, we have in our records information about a lot of other

16 people who spent some time in KP Dom before being released, exchanged,

17 before dying, et cetera.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Masovic, I'd like you to look at an exhibit that's

19 been used in this case. It's Prosecution Exhibit 55, and it's being

20 supplied to you and it's in your folder.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Does that contain the additional material now from

22 the investigator which there has been some agreement between the parties

23 on?

24 MR. SMITH: No, just Schedule C.

25 Q. Have you had an opportunity to study this list in relation to the

Page 4280

1 records you have regarding missing people prior to coming to court?

2 A. Yes, I had occasion to see this list.

3 Q. Now, in that light, is there anyone on that list that is not

4 reported as still missing with the state commission? And we'll just take

5 it name by name.

6 A. I would have to analyse it name by name, but generally speaking,

7 all these 29 persons are believed to be missing but with certain provisos

8 that I would have to make now, explain now. There are some typographic

9 errors and errors of other natures. With regard to some of these persons

10 we have information to the effect that they're included in other lists of

11 Foca residents who were killed, so they are not on this -- on that other

12 list containing 730 names.

13 So if we go name by name, number 1 is Alija Altoka, Salim Bico,

14 number 2; Bico is the nickname of this person. Salim, sorry, is the

15 nickname, and the real name is Hamed. If you -- I can look it up in the

16 other list and tell you the number on that other list.

17 Q. Witness, there's no need to do that, but I just will refer Your

18 Honours to the other lists. Hamed Bico appears on 240/4, the large list,

19 and also appears on 240/5, the KP Dom list that the witness has prepared.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


22 Q. Can you go further down the list and relate which ones don't

23 appear on your list?

24 A. All the names are on our records, but on different lists. Some of

25 them are on the list of missing persons, and others are on the lists of

Page 4281

1 persons who were killed. According to the information we have and the

2 testimony of witnesses, Alija Altoka, number 1; Eso Dzamalija, number 6;

3 Esad Kiselica, number 12; Edin Krajcin, who is number 14; Hamid Ramovic,

4 who is number 20; and Mithat Rikalo, number 22, were killed.

5 I mentioned number 2, Salim Bico. There is an error on this

6 list because Salim is the nickname of the man. And then also in number 5,

7 Enko Cedic, Enko is shortened for Elvedin, and this person has been

8 recorded with us as Elvedin Cedic.

9 Q. If I can stop you there.

10 MR. SMITH: And Your Honours, Elvedin Cedic appears on 240/4 and

11 240/5.

12 Q. Now, you mentioned a number of individuals, Alija Altoka, number

13 1; Eso Dzamalija, number 6; and I believe Esad Kiselica, number 12; Edin

14 Krajcin, number 14, and Hamed Ramovic, number 20, and Mithat Rikalo,

15 number 22. Now, those names appear on the list of missing on 240/4 from

16 Foca municipality, but they don't appear on the list 240/5 in relation to

17 people missing from KP Dom.

18 Now, in those cases, those six cases, other witnesses have

19 testified that they were present at KP Dom and have not been seen since.

20 Just assuming, assuming that's correct, do you know why they appear -- why

21 you have them appearing on the list of 730 names and why they don't appear

22 on the list relating to those missing and last seen at KP Dom? Is there

23 an explanation for that, or not?

24 A. Yes. The explanation is simple. Regarding those six persons, we

25 were unable to receive confirmation that they were last seen at the KP Dom

Page 4282

1 from at least two sources. They have been confirmed, but they belong in

2 the category of those people, of those 35 people I spoke about before, who

3 have been confirmed by witnesses to have been seen at the KP Dom, but we

4 failed to obtain a second confirmation from a different source.

5 So we have confirmation from only one source, and we did not use

6 it in that list of 266 persons who were last seen at the KP Dom.

7 Q. If I now can refer you to number 18, Omer Mujezinovic, his name

8 doesn't appear on either list, 240/4 or 240/5. A witness has come to the

9 court and stated that he believes the first name of Omer is a mistake,

10 and the name of this person is Samir Mujezinovic.

11 MR. SMITH: So Witness 111, Your Honour.

12 Q. And that Samir was at the KP Dom and taken out. Do you have a

13 Samir Mujezinovic on your list of missing and missing from KP Dom?

14 A. Yes. That is correct. And if I may add, after we received this

15 list, when we reviewed it and analysed it, we consulted several different

16 sources, and the person under number 18, Omer Mujezinovic really lived

17 in the territory of Foca before the war, but this man died in a car

18 accident. So we have Samir Mujezinovic on our list, and we believe that

19 the person who made this list of 29 persons made a mistake. The name that

20 should be on the list is Samir Mujezinovic.

21 Q. And if I can refer you to number 16, Fuad Mandzo, his name doesn't

22 appear on either list. Do you have any information on a Fuad Mandzo at

23 the state commission, other than a person not recorded as a missing

24 person?

25 A. Fuad Mandzo is one of the persons who has not been confirmed by

Page 4283

1 two sources and who is on the list of persons who were killed which

2 contains 413 names.

3 Q. And this Fuad Mandzo that you are talking about, what is his date

4 of birth and his former residence?

5 A. I think the year of birth is 1959, and his former residence is the

6 town of Foca, more precisely, the neighbourhood of Donje Polje, a

7 predominately Muslim neighbourhood.

8 Q. And do you have any information as to the circumstances of this

9 particular person's death?

10 A. I don't have such information available to me here, but it's

11 possible that we in the commission do have some additional data on the

12 cause of death. Fuad Mandzo is on the list of people who were killed, not

13 on the list of missing persons, which seems to indicate that we have

14 reliable information that he was killed.

15 Q. Do you know how many Fuad Mandzos there are, and there were in the

16 municipality of Foca?

17 A. I believe there is only one person, and I'm saying this based on

18 the 1991 census where there is only one person named Fuad Mandzo appearing

19 on that list.

20 Q. Now, if you can now look at Prosecution Exhibit 39, which is also

21 in your folder. Now, have you had an opportunity to review this list

22 before coming to court?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This is a list of persons that the Prosecution allege have been

25 detained at the KP Dom, and have been registered with the Red Cross. Is

Page 4284

1 there anyone on that list that is not recorded as missing from Foca

2 municipality, namely, your document 240/4?

3 A. Yes, I believe that there are some persons like that. I would

4 have to go through the list name by name.

5 Q. And the question -- perhaps if you don't go through the list name

6 by name --

7 A. No, actually, I believe that all the persons on this list, there

8 are no ordinal numbers here but I believe all these persons have been

9 registered as missing with our commission, and I even think that all of

10 them are on our list of missing persons.

11 Q. You mentioned that there are some people that have not been

12 recorded as missing, and from reviewing your lists I have found ten

13 individuals that don't appear on your list 240/5, which is still missing

14 and disappeared from the KP Dom; and those individuals are Alija Altoka,

15 Miralem Altoka, Omer Altoka, Fadil Divjan, Alija Dzelil, Izet Grosonja,

16 Adil Krajcin, Dzemal Niksic, Hamid Ramovic, and Srnja Hidajet. They don't

17 appear on 240/5, but those individuals do appear on 240/4.

18 Assuming this information is correct, can you explain why these

19 names do appear on your larger list but don't appear on this smaller list

20 of 266 names?

21 A. Because these people have not been confirmed by several

22 independent persons as having last been seen at the KP Dom in Foca.

23 Q. Thank you. Now I'm just going to ask you a few questions about

24 prisoner exchanges. By September 1992, about how many Bosnian Muslims

25 were detained in detention centres in Bosnia?

Page 4285

1 A. I just didn't understand the time you were referring to, I mean

2 September 1992. At that time, I think that in the territory of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina over 10.000 Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats were

4 detained in Serb prisons, especially in the area of Bosanski Krajina where

5 the largest camps were Omarska, Keraterm, Trnopolje.

6 Q. And from your records, is it indicated whether these people were

7 soldiers or civilians, or can you not say?

8 A. A vast majority of these people were civilians, even civilians who

9 were arrested far away from the confrontation lines, that is to say, deep

10 in the territory that was held by the Serbs, that is to say, in towns

11 where people actually lived, worked, et cetera.

12 Q. Now, in relation to prisoner exchanges and prisoner releases,

13 which was a large focus of your work during the war, have all of those

14 exchanges or all of those -- and all of those releases, are they recorded

15 by your office?

16 A. No. We recorded only part of the prisoners of war, that is to

17 say, civilians deprived of their liberty. Actually, there are other state

18 authorities that deal with the overall subject of inmates. We were only

19 interested in a smaller number of inmates, namely those who we recorded as

20 inmates in camps whose release was negotiated through our office in

21 Sarajevo and our offices throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 Q. And in relation to Foca KP Dom, about how many people have you

23 recorded as being either released or exchanged?

24 A. Released, usually unilaterally because of their age or sickness.

25 We have recorded 44 persons who lived in the territory of Foca before the

Page 4286

1 war, and then I think about 180 were exchanged, perhaps a bit more.

2 Persons who were exchanged through negotiations with the appropriate Serb

3 commission, and who lived in the territory of the municipality of Foca,

4 namely, in the Foca prison during the war. There were also some

5 imprisoned members of the Bosnian army. Some of them were taken prisoner

6 in 1994, some in 1995, but they do not originate from Foca. At the moment

7 when the war broke out, they lived in some other towns in

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but they were deported to the camp in Foca.

9 Q. Now, I'm not referring to how many people have you recorded as

10 being exchanged or released that formerly lived in Foca, I'm specifically

11 directing the question to how many people do you have recorded having been

12 exchanged or released from the Foca KP Dom?

13 A. As I said, according to our records, 44 were released from the

14 camp, and a bit more than 230 were exchanged from the Foca KP Dom.

15 However, including members of the army who were taken prisoner in 1994 and

16 1995, and who had not lived in Foca beforehand.

17 Q. And is it possible that releases and exchanges occurred from Foca

18 KP Dom, and your commission would be unaware of it or not record it?

19 A. Well, I should say that theoretically this is possible; however,

20 all persons who got out of prison were treated by the first police

21 stations that they came across in government-held territories, so these

22 police stations submitted their reports to us. So I believe that there

23 was no possibility for someone to get out of prison without having that

24 recorded at our commission. Theoretically it is possible; however, if it

25 so happened that a person was deported directly from the KP Dom to a third

Page 4287












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4288

1 country, a European country, and that that person did not contact

2 anyone, even our embassy in that third European country or some other

3 state authorities, then it is possible that the state commission had not

4 recorded such a person, but this is theory, I imagine.

5 Q. And you mentioned earlier in your evidence that the state

6 commission, you were involved in the exchange of the prisoners of war --

7 MR. SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour.

8 Q. Were there some exchanges that you weren't involved in, prisoners

9 of war, where your office would not be notified? And in particular, I'm

10 referring to the 1992 period.

11 A. Yes. In certain situations, when certain private arrangements

12 were made, for example, there were cases in the KP Dom Foca in particular

13 that some people managed to get released from the KP Dom by paying a

14 certain amount of money. In some cases, these were relatively high

15 amounts of money, exceeding 30.000 German Deutschemark, I believe. So

16 they were not involved in the legal procedure that had to be observed.

17 That is to say, that approval had to be sought from our headquarters in

18 Sarajevo in order to have the exchange carried out.

19 So there are such possibilities of cases of persons who managed to

20 get out, as we say, through private channels. To get out of prison, that

21 is.

22 Q. I'd now like to ask you a few questions about the population

23 movement of people from Foca in 1992. Are you in a position to say where

24 people fled, in which direction generally, from the records that you

25 received at the state commission after the conflict broke out?

Page 4289

1 A. Already in April, after the first armed conflicts broke out in the

2 territory of Foca, the majority of the Bosnian Muslim population tried to

3 get out in three directions, approximately. Some fled before the Serb

4 forces along the Drina and Cehotina rivers towards Gorazde. Another part

5 fled towards Trnovo, a small place near Sarajevo which at that time was

6 under government force control, and yet another group tried to seek

7 shelter by hiding in areas around Foca, approximately in the area of the

8 Tjentiste, that were not easily accessible. So there are three groups

9 that tried to get away in different directions.

10 Q. And the 1991 census shows that there are about 20.000, at least

11 20.000 Bosnian Muslims living in Foca in 1991. By the end of 1992, from

12 your records, can you say about how many of these people were still living

13 within the municipality?

14 A. In the end of 1992, there was only a small percentage of Bosnian

15 Muslims left in Foca, and those were only people who were detained at the

16 KP Dom. It is also possible that there were some individuals, not more

17 than ten of them, who expressed their loyalty to the Serb authorities.

18 Some of them were also members of the Serb army.

19 So, by the end of 1992, a negligible number of Bosnian Muslims

20 lived freely in the territory of the municipality of Foca.

21 Q. And from your knowledge of the Foca area, and more particularly

22 from the information you obtained from your records, can you say whether

23 the Bosnian Muslim population or a part of it has started to return to

24 Foca municipality, and if that has happened, when did that start?

25 A. The state commission does not have such information within its

Page 4290

1 records because this goes beyond our jurisdiction; however, I personally

2 inquired with the local authorities in Foca what the situation was in view

3 of returns. The mayor of Foca told me that only 1.200 to 1.500 Bosnian

4 Muslims returned to some parts of the municipality of Foca, primarily to

5 the Bosnian Muslim villages. So I think that, in percentage terms, as

6 compared to 1992, the percentage of persons who managed to return to their

7 own homes does not exceed 8 per cent.

8 This repatriation started only last year, as far as I know,

9 because the territory of the town of Foca and the municipality of Foca was

10 considered to be a dark hole, as we called it. Even we at the state

11 commission considered it to be so. Even international representatives

12 refrained from supporting us in our exhumations in the territory of the

13 municipality of Foca. Truth to tell, that was not the only municipality

14 where our access was impeded. There were other such municipalities, like

15 Visegrad.

16 Q. If I can just stop you there. When you say a dark hole, are you

17 referring to lack of cooperation with the authorities in the

18 municipality?

19 A. We did not establish any contact with the authorities. On the

20 other side, our partner is the Serb commission, the Serb commission that

21 does the same kind of work as we do. They are our partner. They are the

22 ones who established contact with their own local authorities, with the

23 police, those who are duty-bound to provide escort and Security Services

24 to us from the inter-ethnic boundary line.

25 The problem was that the international forces, the SFOR forces

Page 4291

1 that were stationed in that area, very often suggested to us that it was

2 still too early for us to do our job in the territory of the municipality

3 of Foca. I can only speculate or engage in guesswork as to why it is so.

4 However, it was a well-known fact that some of the persons who were

5 publicly indicted by this Tribunal, and some of the persons who were

6 considered to be on sealed indictments freely moved about the territory of

7 the municipality of Foca practically all the way up to last year or the

8 year before last.

9 MR. SMITH: Thank you. If Your Honour would just excuse me for a

10 moment.

11 Your Honour, I have no further questions. I formally would like

12 to tender some of these documents that have been referred to. I seek to

13 tender 240/1, which is the map and the corresponding index that relates to

14 the exhumation locations.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Is that an ID number now so that we can give it a P

16 number?

17 MR. SMITH: Yes, yes Your Honour. So the map and the index.

18 Secondly, 240/3, which is a list of the bodies exhumed within the Foca

19 municipality, of identified people. I'd also like to tender 240/4, which

20 is the list of people still missing from Foca municipality as recorded by

21 the state commission; and 240/5, which is a list of people still missing

22 and last seen at the KP Dom, which was prepared by the state commission;

23 240/6, which is a list of people detained at the KP Dom Foca as notified

24 by the Bosnian Serb authorities to the Red Cross, which was prepared by

25 the state commission; and 240/7, which is the original document that was

Page 4292

1 given to the state commission by the Red Cross relating to detained people

2 notified by the Serb authorities in their camps to the Red Cross. And

3 they are the documents, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague Mr. Vasic

6 has dealt with this subject matter, and he will be the one to

7 cross-examine Mr. Masovic. We are not opposed to these documents except

8 for two, that is, document 240/5. That is the list of 266 persons who

9 were last seen in the KP Dom Foca. The Defence does not have any

10 information or any proof, any papers that would show which are these two

11 independent sources on the basis of which this list was compiled. We just

12 have information from the witness that this list was compiled on the basis

13 of two independent sources; however, we are not aware of which sources

14 these are, nor do we manage to have any insight into all of this. And we

15 could not check for ourselves whether these were indeed two independent

16 sources.

17 The other document that we're opposed to is I believe 240/7. That

18 is a list that was confirmed, or rather, a list that is entitled

19 "Confirmed by the authorities of Republika Srpska." Yes, by the

20 authorities of Republika Srpska. Again, we haven't got any auxiliary

21 documents. We haven't got any proof to corroborate this. Is this on

22 the basis of something that was received in writing? On the basis of

23 which information did the authorities of Republika Srpska compile this

24 list?

25 JUDGE HUNT: Well, now --

Page 4293

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And also, I do apologise, that on the

2 basis of that, the International Red Cross made up a list. So we haven't

3 got any papers to corroborate that, either. The Defence would like to

4 check that out, and then perhaps by the end of the Defence case, even, we

5 could look into these two documents and see whether they could actually be

6 entered into evidence.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Just let me clear up the problems you have. In

8 relation to 240/5, that's the KP Dom list, do you want to know the

9 identity of the independent sources, or do you simply want to know the

10 nature of them, such as, two different family members or something like

11 that?

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The witness spoke

13 about two independent sources. We don't know which two independent

14 sources were used, nor have we seen anything. I think that the Defence is

15 entitled to see these documents to see why these persons were recorded as

16 last being seen at the KP Dom.

17 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, you haven't answered my question. Do you

18 want to know the identity of the sources or simply the nature? You want

19 to see the documents themselves, I gather?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The nature of the

21 documents, and from the nature of the documents we will be able to see the

22 identity of the persons concerned, so it is the nature of the documents.

23 I don't know whether these are only statements made by family members, or

24 perhaps whether there is some document in writing. The Defence is not

25 aware of this.

Page 4294

1 As for all other documents, we agree; however, this is a highly

2 relevant question for our case, and we would indeed like to see these

3 sources on the basis of which this list was made up.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Now, in relation of the Red Cross, what is the

5 nature of your objection to that? You said you haven't been over to check

6 it out, but what is it that you seek?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the list that we got,

8 it doesn't say anywhere that it was compiled by the International Red

9 Cross and on the basis of information, et cetera. That's only contained

10 in the title. We haven't got a shred of proof to corroborate this.

11 JUDGE HUNT: But look, Mr. Bakrac, I'm trying to narrow the

12 issue; I'm not trying to debate it with you. What you are seeking, are

13 you, is some document from the Red Cross to say that that's the list that

14 they have compiled, or are you seeking to know the information which the

15 Red Cross had in order to compile it? I want to know how far back we have

16 to inquire if your objection is upheld.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we haven't got any proof

18 here that would show that this list was obtained from the Red Cross, so we

19 need evidence of that nature. And we also haven't got any proof that the

20 authorities of Republika Srpska submitted such a list.

21 JUDGE HUNT: No, please, let's deal one at a time. I'm trying to

22 narrow the issues that you are raising.

23 In relation to the Red Cross, would you be satisfied if a letter

24 was produced from the Red Cross saying they had compiled it, or are you

25 also seeking to know what information the Red Cross had in order to

Page 4295

1 compile it? Now, that's a simple question. It should be provided with a

2 simple answer.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it would be sufficient

4 or, rather, the Defence would be satisfied if the International Red Cross

5 were to confirm that they compiled this list of persons, and also if they

6 stated the source on the basis of which this list is compiled. So it is

7 sufficient if in one letter the Red Cross would confirm this list and the

8 source on the basis of which this list had been compiled.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, let's assume that, as I would believe to be the

10 case, the Red Cross is relying upon notifications from hundreds of people

11 to it that these people are missing. As I recall some evidence somewhere

12 along the line in this case, the ICRC invited people to register missing

13 people with them. Now, are you seeking to have those registrations as

14 well?

15 How far down to the basic facts are you seeking to have us go?

16 Would it be sufficient, for example, if they said just that, that they

17 relied upon notifications given to them by people that these persons were

18 missing?

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Perhaps we haven't

20 understood each other properly. I really don't want us to use up this

21 much of our time, and I am not doubting the authenticity of what the

22 international -- of that which would be conveyed to us by the

23 International Red Cross; however, this list does say, the heading says

24 that this is --

25 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I do want an answer

Page 4296












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4297

1 to my question, and I think I am entitled to it. Do you want the Red

2 Cross to identify the people who made the complaints or who gave them the

3 notifications, or are you satisfied with a statement made by the Red Cross

4 that that is what they relied upon in general terms, notifications by

5 people that these persons were missing?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, we don't need

7 identification of every person who sent an application or information. It

8 is sufficient to say that this list was compiled on the basis of

9 notifications given by a larger number of persons who came to the

10 International Red Cross.

11 However, please bear with me for one minute. There is a list that

12 is sought to be tendered into evidence, and it speaks of a list that was

13 obtained by the International Red Cross from the authorities of Republika

14 Srpska. That is what the Defence is interested in, not every individual

15 notification for every -- from every individual person, or we don't need a

16 list of persons who came to the Red Cross. We're just interested in this

17 list that was obtained from the authorities of Republika Srpska because it

18 is being invoked, and we do not see it anywhere.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment.

20 Mr. Smith, am I right in assuming that the document 240/7 is the

21 one which the Red Cross received?

22 MR. SMITH: That's right. The witness has said that he received

23 it at a conference.


25 MR. SMITH: And until now --

Page 4298

1 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I thought.

2 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, in relation to --

3 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. Just, let's get them clear.

4 So what is it you need, then, more than document 240/7? Do you

5 doubt the authenticity of that as having been supplied by Republika Srpska

6 to the Red Cross?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We have no information whatsoever

8 about that, Your Honour. First of all, I wish to clarify whether this is

9 the document that we received, that is to say, 240/7, whether that was the

10 document that was compiled by the commission that is headed by this

11 witness; or is that the authentic document that the witness received from

12 the commission of Republika Srpska?

13 JUDGE HUNT: I suspect that is not the exact document; it's

14 compiled from that document. So you want -- because part of it is in

15 English. You want the actual document which the witness says he was given

16 by an official of Republika Srpska, is that what you want, or a copy of

17 it? Mr. Vasic is nodding his head.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE HUNT: All right. I now understand and have got narrowed

20 the points you are taking, so I'll hear what Mr. Smith wants to say about

21 these.

22 Now, Mr. Smith, bearing in mind that we are relying upon thirdhand

23 information here, and I'm not criticising you for that, in fact, we are

24 very grateful it has been put in this form, but if there is a challenge to

25 it, I think that the Defence is entitled to some further material. There

Page 4299

1 should be no problem, should there, in obtaining from the Red Cross some

2 document which describes in general terms the source of the information

3 from which they compiled that list?

4 MR. SMITH: There may be some difficulties, Your Honour, with the

5 Red Cross in relation to gaining information for court purposes.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, let me just say this to you about the Red

7 Cross: There is a decision of the Tribunal which protects information

8 which they obtained in very limited circumstances where they have been

9 granted access to prison camps, and although the view that I took in that

10 case was not quite that of the majority, I would not want in this case to

11 try to depart from the majority's decision, but it is very limited. And

12 the Red Cross, having invited this information and supplied the other,

13 should surely be able to describe in general terms where they got that

14 information from.

15 I would like to say that it must be almost beyond reasonable doubt

16 as a matter of common sense that they compiled it from information given

17 to them by people whom they had invited to give them that information, and

18 it was for this very sort of purpose. And if the ICRC wants to be

19 difficult about that, they should go away and hang their heads in shame.

20 So I don't think there should be any difficulty, really. And then

21 you might like to tell them that the Trial Chamber takes a very firm view

22 that they are negligent in their duties if they do not provide it, in very

23 general terms, without identifying the people, but just describing the

24 general sense -- in a general sense, where they got their information

25 from.

Page 4300

1 MR. SMITH: Well, Your Honour, we will attempt to do that. But

2 just to perhaps clear up the evidence, this witness has stated that the

3 Red Cross -- he believes the Red Cross compiled -- he was told the Red

4 Cross compiled this document from information that they received from Serb

5 authorities notifying them.

6 JUDGE HUNT: All right.

7 MR. SMITH: That they had people in their --

8 JUDGE HUNT: Is that something that the ICRC would claim some form

9 of privilege for?

10 MR. SMITH: I --

11 JUDGE HUNT: I cannot imagine it. Now, that is something which

12 would resolve that particular problem with a great deal of ease.

13 Similarly, all that the Defence wants in relation to 240/7 is a

14 copy of the document itself that was provided to the witness.

15 MR. SMITH: This is -- I mean, I can clarify with the witness, but

16 this is the copy that was provided to him by --

17 JUDGE HUNT: You mean this is a photostat copy of the actual

18 document?

19 MR. SMITH: Yes.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if you get that into evidence that should be

21 sufficient, unless there's going to be a challenge to that piece of

22 evidence, but it would certainly be sufficient for the document to get

23 into evidence.

24 MR. SMITH: This is a copy that he received from the Red Cross, a

25 photocopy.

Page 4301

1 JUDGE HUNT: You mean it had, it had the headings in English?

2 MR. SMITH: I believe so, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, how about clearing that up. I assumed that this

4 was something which has been retyped to make it more convenient for the

5 Tribunal, but if it is a copy of the exact document, then that should, I

6 hope, resolve any problem from the Defence's point of view.


8 Q. Mr. Masovic, if you can look at your document 240/7, do you have

9 it in front of you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was that, was that the document that was provided to you by the

12 Red Cross?

13 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, the Republika Srpska.

14 MR. SMITH: Sorry, Your Honour. This document was provided to

15 him, I believe, by the Red Cross. The Red Cross compiled this document

16 from information that they received from Republika Srpska authorities.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you can clear that up, but that's not what

18 Mr. Bakrac is after. He's after the document which the Red Cross received

19 from Republika Srpska.

20 MR. SMITH: There may or may not be one, Your Honour, and it's not

21 clear -- this witness -- I'll ask him, but he may not be clear how the

22 Red Cross compiled this document.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, see what you can find out.


25 Q. Mr. Masovic, the document 240/7, is that the one that you

Page 4302

1 received --

2 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, I've just seen the time. We'll take a

3 break now until 11.40, but would you please discuss this with the

4 witness. I think this is an appropriate case. It may be that we'll

5 have to also ask the Red Cross as to what they received from Republika

6 Srpska, but I think it's a justifiable inquiry. If you get the evidence

7 from this witness it will probably be sufficient to get this document into

8 evidence, but it may be a fair enough line of inquiry for the Defence to

9 follow up to have a copy of whatever it was the Red Cross received from

10 Republika Srpska.

11 We'll adjourn now till 11.40 and I regret we've run over time.

12 --- Recess taken at 11.09 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

15 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

16 Q. Mr. Masovic, the document 240/7, who gave you that document?

17 A. The ICRC, the International Commission of the Red Cross.

18 Q. And is that an exact copy of the document that was given to you?

19 A. This is a photocopy of the original document handed over to us by

20 the International Committee of the Red Cross.

21 Q. So it was handed over to you in English?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you received this document at a conference; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what was the title of the conference?

Page 4303

1 A. Working Group of the ICRC, established, I believe, on the 1st of

2 March, 1996, as one of the institutions envisaged by the Dayton Accords.

3 Q. And how many other people were at this conference?

4 A. On average, more than 20 persons attend, including members of the

5 association of family members of missing persons from all over the

6 federation, which means Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat, and members from

7 the Republic of Croatia, and also of the Republika Srpska.

8 Q. And the members were from --

9 A. Also Yugoslavia, sorry.

10 Q. And the members were from the respective commissions for tracing

11 of missing persons, is that correct, some of the representatives?

12 A. Delegations of the parties were extended to include people from

13 other ministries, such as the ministry of the police, ministry of the

14 Defence, and I believe the ministry of health as well.

15 Q. And representatives from the Serb authorities, Bosnian Republika

16 Srpska authorities, they received a copy of this document as well; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct. They received a copy of this document,

19 too. In fact, they received the original of this document, just as we

20 did.

21 Q. And did you also receive a document from the Red Cross in relation

22 to Bosnian Serb and Bosnian Croat detainees in Bosnian Muslim prisons

23 during the war?

24 A. Yes, we received a document listing, I think, a total of 20 names

25 of Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats believed to be -- to have gone missing

Page 4304

1 during the conflict, and notified or recorded by the legal authorities of

2 the government.

3 Q. And did the Red Cross state what the purpose of handing these

4 documents to each of the representatives from the various governments,

5 what the purpose was in doing that?

6 A. The task of that working group of the ICRC was to accelerate the

7 flow of information about the fate of those 20.000 missing persons in

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the priority in that task was on those persons who

9 were reported by those legal authorities to have been imprisoned because

10 it was considered to be the fastest way to learn about the fate of these

11 people who these legal authorities admitted had been imprisoned as opposed

12 to other missing persons who went missing in various villages and towns in

13 whose cases it was sometimes very difficult to establish what had become

14 of them.

15 Q. And did the Red Cross representative explain which people within

16 the respective authorities provided notification that these detainees were

17 in their detention centres?

18 A. No. The Red Cross never shared that information with us or any

19 other of the parties which participate in the work of the working group.

20 Q. And during that conference, did any representative from the

21 Republika Srpska object to this document or state that it's false or

22 have any comment as to its authenticity when it was handed out?

23 A. No, there were no objections to this document.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, the last question you asked, I don't think

25 quite covers it. You asked did the Red Cross representatives explain

Page 4305












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4306

1 which people within the respective authorities provided notification.

2 What we're interested in knowing is whether the Red Cross revealed either

3 the identity of their sources generally, or whether they gave some general

4 description of their sources; in other words, whether it was beyond their

5 various authorities, and when notifications were made directly to the

6 ICRC. That's what I think we got to get down to. That is the point, as I

7 understand it, of the objection.


9 Q. Did you understand that question from the Judge? Did the Red

10 Cross representative explain or reveal whether or not this information had

11 come from Republika Srpska authorities or people outside of the government

12 or military structure, namely, friends and families?

13 A. No, neither in this nor in other similar cases, because there have

14 been other documents given to us by the ICRC which related to some other

15 detention camps. The International Red Cross did not reveal and will not

16 reveal information as to the origin of the document. On the contrary, the

17 ICRC, in keeping with its mandate, keeps this information in confidence

18 and did not share it with us. They simply made available this, to us this

19 list of people who have been registered in various prisons, and it is our

20 task to determine the fate of these people.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Have they at any stage given a general description of

22 the sources of their information? In other words, without revealing any

23 particular person, have they described it as being from local authorities

24 and persons who have registered missing persons; or have they just given

25 you no information at all?

Page 4307

1 A. No, not at all. No information at all, apart from what is

2 indicated in the very title of the document.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Smith, that does not bode well for any

4 inquiry you may make of the ICRC, but you might make it clear to them when

5 you do make an inquiry that we do not understand that to be within the

6 terms of the decision in Simic, and that we would hope that they would be

7 able to give us at least some general description without revealing

8 particular sources.

9 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps if I can just follow up

10 with one specific question. The title of the document is "list of

11 detainees notified by the authorities," and then underneath it has

12 Republika Srpska. Did they say who these authorities were, whether it was

13 a military authority, a police authority, or local authority?

14 A. In the terminology that we used at that particular session and

15 other sessions of the working group, we -- the term was "prison

16 authorities." I don't know whether the term "prison authorities" is

17 adequate; the usual way to put it is "prison administration," but that is

18 the term we took over from the International Red Cross, and that term is

19 "prison authorities."

20 MR. SMITH: I hope that is just enough, Your Honour, to establish

21 the reliability of the document.

22 JUDGE HUNT: It may be, depending on what Mr. Bakrac wants to say

23 about it, but it is unfortunate that the Red Cross seems to believe that

24 it is above giving any assistance to the very authorities who have to

25 inquire into these matters.

Page 4308

1 MR. SMITH: In relation to this document, Your Honour, I would

2 just submit that perhaps there's a reasonable degree of reliability to it,

3 to its authenticity, and now it's a question of weight.

4 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I -- that's my present view, subject to

5 anything Mr. Bakrac wants to say. But as I say, it would be sufficient to

6 get the document into evidence, but what weight we give to it is another

7 matter. Are there any other questions you want to ask?

8 MR. SMITH: No, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, that's the 240/7. You will ask the Red

10 Cross for a general statement in relation to 240/6, that they did provide

11 that information, and you could ask them to identify in general terms the

12 same sort of -- same sort of general terms, the source.

13 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour, and 240/6 and /7, /6 is

14 derived from 240/7, so it is actually the same source.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but Mr. Bakrac wants a statement that it did

16 come from the Red Cross. I'm not sure that this is going to take the

17 matter very much further because we've got the evidence from the witness,

18 but we should at least ask them to state that they did give the witness,

19 or at least to his commission, that particular information.

20 MR. SMITH: We will do that, Your Honour. And Your Honour, in

21 relation to 240/5 --


23 MR. SMITH: -- where the Defence has some objection to it --

24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you see, that depended upon the commission

25 getting information from two independent sources. You might be able to

Page 4309

1 ask the witness what was the nature of the sources, which he might be able

2 to tell us now, but the objection went further than that; they wanted to

3 see the documents which were in the commission's possession as well.

4 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I can only say that, in terms of

5 reliability, the witness comes from an organisation whose main purpose is

6 to record missing persons and --

7 JUDGE HUNT: You don't have to emphasise that.

8 MR. SMITH: Okay.

9 JUDGE HUNT: But I'm trying to avoid an unnecessary amount of

10 friction over an issue which may easily be cured. I don't think, despite

11 the time I've been here, I've quite adopted the continental suggestion of

12 consensus on everything. At some stage, judicial organisations have to

13 make decisions. But if we can get at least a consensus, it would be

14 better; it will prevent appeal points, if I may put it that way, Mr.

15 Smith. So see what you can do to at least get a general description of

16 who those sources would be, and then you might like to ask him what is

17 involved in producing the documents.


19 Q. Mr. Masovic, you explained earlier how your records are processed

20 and how you record missing persons. In relation to this particular list,

21 the 266, how many of those people that are listed as missing have been

22 supported or have been recorded as missing from a family member?

23 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, I'm sorry. That's not what I'm after. Ask

24 Mr. Masovic first whether he can give us a general description of what the

25 sources were, and then we'll get down to the more difficult problems of

Page 4310

1 particular cases.


3 Q. In relation to this list, Mr. Masovic, 240/5, what were the -- all

4 of the sources that were used to produce that list?

5 A. With regard to inmates, and I underline "inmates," all the

6 statements are based on the experience of inmates who were released or

7 exchanged. However, not all testimony was directed directly to our

8 commission. Some testimonies and statements were given to a family member

9 who then informed us. Some testimony reached local authorities for

10 exchanges, some to police authorities, military authorities, et cetera,

11 and in a certain number of cases the camp inmates themselves, at the

12 moment of their release or exchange, gave us statements at our

13 headquarters in Sarajevo as to which inmates remained behind at the camp

14 and who was last seen at the camp. Those released inmates didn't know

15 about the fate of some of the prisoners and were able to tell us what they

16 heard about others. Some, for instance, were told to be killed or taken

17 away, et cetera.

18 Q. Other than testimonies that you received directly from former

19 inmates or indirectly from local offices and then advised by them to your

20 office, what other source of material -- is there any other source of

21 material that was used to establish that these 266 were, in fact, in KP

22 Dom?

23 A. Reports which came from the organisations I have just mentioned,

24 plus reports or records of the International Committee of the Red Cross.

25 Q. And which organisations had you just mentioned specifically that

Page 4311

1 identified that some of these people were at KP Dom?

2 A. Local commissions. I can say, for instance, the local commission

3 from Trnovo, and I have already said that Trnovo is one of the towns

4 towards which the Bosnian Muslim population from Foca moved, and that is

5 also where some released prisoners from Foca ended up, and not only from

6 Foca. And this organisation was headed by the local police chief of

7 Trnovo.

8 Q. And did these local commissions get any other information other

9 than from former detainees that any number of these people were detained

10 in KP Dom, or was their only source former detainees?

11 A. Detainees are not the only source of information. Very often it

12 was the families who told us about this. However, I have to say that we

13 had limited access, at least, that is what we in the commission know.

14 Actually, that access to the KP Dom in Foca was very limited for family

15 members, and I'm not sure now until when in 1992 they could visit

16 inmates. Already in autumn 1992, there was no possibility for family

17 members to visit their relatives at the KP Dom Foca.

18 So from that period onwards, family members did not know what was

19 going on with their relatives in the prison. So in a certain number of

20 cases, it was the family members themselves who made statements to local

21 commissions, and also members of the military who held the separation

22 lines in those areas where the family members appeared, and also in many

23 cases former inmates who shared cells in prison with other inmates gave

24 information as to who was in the KP Dom and who remained in prison after

25 they had left the KP Dom.

Page 4312

1 JUDGE HUNT: The other thing I asked you to follow up was what

2 would be involved in producing all of the material upon which the document

3 is based.


5 Q. Did you understand the Judge's question?

6 A. Yes. These are reports that came from the field, and statements

7 in writing and oral given to our local commissions and to our headquarters

8 in Sarajevo.

9 Q. And the former detainees that came to the Sarajevo office, were

10 they interviewed by you and your staff?

11 A. As for the KP Dom Foca, because of everything that happened there,

12 I thought that this was a complicated case due to the fact that almost 300

13 detainees are considered to be missing nowadays. I directly talked to

14 the released inmates. A vast majority of them were released only on the

15 5th, 6th, 8th, and 10th of October in 1994. I think that this is one of

16 the bigger groups of inmates that came from the KP Dom Foca through the

17 process of exchanges that we were carrying out.

18 Q. And this information that was received from former detainees at

19 your office, was that reduced to writing, then entered into the computer,

20 the database that you referred to earlier?

21 A. Yes. Some of them were compiled in writing, and others were

22 directly entered into the computers.

23 Q. And in relation to information obtained from relatives of the

24 missing people, you said that some would provide the information over the

25 phone, and some would come to the office in person.

Page 4313

1 A. In the initial period of the war, those who were prevented from

2 entering Sarajevo that was under siege or the local offices that were on

3 the ground could give information over the telephone during part of the

4 war. Later on, that was made impossible as well because telephone lines

5 were disconnected. So it was all reduced to direct contacts with these

6 people when they would come to our office in Sarajevo, when people could

7 come to and leave from Sarajevo, and also when they had access to our

8 local offices in Gorazde, Trnovo, and some smaller towns.

9 Q. And this information was recorded straight onto the computer; is

10 that correct?

11 A. Most of the information was entered directly into the computer,

12 and in some cases we also made some notes.

13 Q. And the hard copies of documentation coming in from the regional

14 offices of the state commission, has that -- you said that material had

15 been entered into the computer as well, and that it would normally be

16 entered in between 15 days and a month after you received it at the

17 office. Does that hard copy information still exist in your office?

18 A. Yes, they do exist in the archives of our commission in Sarajevo.

19 Q. And with each of the 266 individuals on the list, are you able to

20 identify the sources, the particular sources, for each individual that is

21 recorded as missing and last seen at the KP Dom?

22 A. Yes. It is absolutely possible for every one of the 266 persons

23 to say on the basis of which original information they were entered into

24 the list of the former detainees of the KP Dom in Foca, the 266.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Does that mean that your computer could identify the

Page 4314












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4315

1 names of the persons who gave the information, or is it just the

2 information which was recorded in the computer?

3 A. Both. In some cases, our computer database says quite precisely

4 on the basis of whose testimonies a person was registered as missing; and

5 in other cases, there are only remarks stating in line with a witness

6 statement. However, the name of the witness is not specifically referred

7 to.


9 Q. And you further stated that prior to coming to testify, you

10 further confirmed the sources of this information; is that correct?

11 A. Yes. We went through all of this information, or rather, all of

12 these sources with some people who specifically deal with the subject

13 matter of persons who are missing from the territory of Foca. So we

14 further corroborated our information through such persons.

15 Q. So how long would it take you to be able to identify the sources

16 of each particular entry in this list?

17 A. In order to mention all the sources from which the list was

18 confirmed, I need more than a day or two; however, in order to identify

19 all the documents, it would require about ten days for us to find all the

20 source documents that are related to reports submitted from the

21 municipality of Foca concerning persons from that area who went missing.

22 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I have no further questions on this

23 topic.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, thank you.

25 MR. SMITH: Except --

Page 4316

1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, let's get rid of the issue about its

2 admissibility, first, unless there's something you want to ask about that.

3 MR. SMITH: Not ask about it but just state to the Court, in

4 relation to this 266, from the Exhibit P39 which has been introduced in

5 evidence already, which identifies people that were detained at KP Dom

6 from witness statements, Prosecution witness statements, and registered

7 with the Red Cross, from that list, from the Red Cross list that we've

8 just talked about, and including any other detainee that was mentioned in

9 any of the schedules, not double counting, I've recorded about 149 names

10 that appear on those lists, on this particular list. So there's about 110

11 names that doesn't appear in that material that is included in this list;

12 however, that doesn't include any analysis of the transcripts themselves

13 as to witness's evidence as to who was actually at the KP Dom, and not

14 that that would be complete in any event. But just --

15 JUDGE HUNT: But what is the point that you're making there, that

16 they are all consistent, that the same 40-odd names that we're concerned

17 with appear on all of them? Is that the point you're making?

18 MR. SMITH: Well, more to the list generally, the 200 -- there's a

19 high degree of reliability from the lists even when you just compare it

20 with information from other sources. But, however, the main point being

21 is that this -- I think this evidence should be accepted into evidence,

22 but a question of weight, because ultimately --

23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's what -- we're really only dealing with

24 admissibility at the moment. I would hope that the Prosecution would

25 provide whatever it can in order to support the weight of the material

Page 4317

1 because it is important, an important issue. But you rely upon the

2 material which you've got into evidence so far to make the documents

3 themselves admissible, and we'll worry about weight later.

4 MR. SMITH: Not solely, but in part.

5 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, I don't understand just the reservation

6 you're making there.

7 MR. SMITH: I think I mean the documents perhaps should be

8 admissible in any event based on this witness's testimony.

9 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I'm asking you. You're satisfied with

10 the material you got from this witness that -- and by reference to the

11 other material already in, Exhibit 55/1 and 2 is another source, I would

12 have thought.

13 MR. SMITH: But if Your Honour has further concerns about --

14 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. We're dealing, at the moment, with

15 admissibility. I don't want to say I have concerns about the weight, but

16 I would hope that the Prosecution would keep providing us with anything

17 that would assist us in determining that weight because it's obviously a

18 matter about which the Defence has some concerns and it's only fair that

19 we get the best evidence we can on the point.

20 MR. SMITH: It's a thing that perhaps cannot be always prejudged.

21 It's a balance between expediency and the amount of work involved and

22 obviously the reliability, but now that it's become an issue, we may be

23 able to provide further information to it.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

25 Well, now, Mr. Bakrac. We're dealing only with the admissibility

Page 4318

1 of the documents at this stage. Why is there not sufficient

2 material to say that they have some probative value, and that's the only

3 matter we have to determine at this time? I don't see the difference

4 between this and 55/1 and 55/2, for example. It is material that has some

5 probative weight. Whether it establishes the death of these people beyond

6 reasonable doubt is a matter we'll have to come to at the end of the

7 trial. But why even without the material that you say that you need are

8 they not admissible as having sufficient reliability to have some

9 probative weight?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what the Defence wishes

11 to do least of all is to engage in unreasonable objections, at least in

12 our opinion.

13 When speaking of 240/7, you will agree with me, and this is

14 very important for the Defence, that a list of detainees is mentioned

15 which was sent in by the authorities. And then it says in Serbian, not

16 in English, underneath, it says, "Of the army of Republika Srpska."

17 That's what it says in the Serbian language.

18 It is important for us, the Defence, to see who did this. Who

19 registered the detainees? Is it the authorities of Republika Srpska, or

20 is it the KP Dom authorities, or was it the army of Republika Srpska? We

21 had quite a few witnesses here, and we objected, and we challenged that.

22 Who was actually in charge of the detainees? So this is what concerns the

23 Defence.

24 The Defence wishes to look into the authenticity of this list.

25 Who was it obtained from? In English, you have the full name in this

Page 4319

1 upper column. It says "father" here and then in Serbian, "DOB," and then

2 again "place," and then again the "date of notification." So yet again

3 there is a word in Serbian that is inserted.

4 JUDGE HUNT: "DOB" is date of birth.

5 MR. BAKRAC: Oh, sorry. [Interpretation] Oh, I do apologise

6 because "DOB," pronounced "dob," is a Serbian word also meaning age, so I

7 really apologise I didn't realise that it was an abbreviation.

8 So the Defence is concerned about the source. Who gave this

9 list? Was it the army of Republika Srpska or somebody else? That's what

10 we've been wondering about.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. The witness told us he thought that

12 the usual expression was "prison authorities." Now, I understand what you

13 want those for, because you think it may assist you in demonstrating who

14 was running the KP Dom, and that's a justifiable question. I wonder,

15 though, whether this witness or anybody that the Prosecution can obtain,

16 can obtain that material for you. Republika Srpska, despite all their

17 protestations, are not really being very cooperative with the Tribunal.

18 You may have better information or better access to them than anybody from

19 the OTP. But the document itself is produced by an official within the

20 Republika Srpska, the commission, as I understand it, that the Republika

21 Srpska has, similar to this witness's commission, so that it has some

22 probative weight from that fact alone.

23 Certainly if any avenue can be followed up by the Prosecution, it

24 should be to give you the assistance you need on a different issue. But

25 if I may say so, that issue does not affect the admissibility of these

Page 4320

1 documents.

2 So what I'd like to hear from you at this stage is why are they

3 not of some probative value, from the mere fact, in relation to 240/7,

4 that they were produced by an authority of the Republika Srpska?

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I already said, as far

7 as the heading is concerned, the witness said that the document was

8 compiled in English and was handed over to him, and I don't have to repeat

9 once again that there is something added in Serbian, "the army of

10 Republika Srpska." And at the end of the document we haven't got a

11 signature or anything to show who made this document. It could have been

12 made by anyone.

13 It would be a good thing if the OTP could get from the Red Cross

14 some proof of authenticity that this document was handed over, and it

15 would also be important to see who it pertains to, the army of Republika

16 Srpska or the authorities -- I mean the army of Republika Srpska or other

17 civilian authorities of Republika Srpska. Who was this list of names

18 obtained from?

19 JUDGE HUNT: I was going to say it doesn't even have a rubber

20 stamp on it, but that pertains more to our previous case where your

21 predecessors from Serbia seemed to think that if it had a rubber stamp on

22 it, it was authenticated.

23 I agree with you that that is material which should be obtained,

24 not for the purposes of making the documents admissible, but for the

25 purpose of assisting you, quite properly, in the presentation of your

Page 4321

1 Defence. I haven't consulted with my colleagues, but on the face of

2 it, it seems to me clearly that these documents are admissible as having

3 some probative force. What weight they are given in the end will depend

4 upon the evidence throughout the whole of the case.

5 Now, if you have some argument you can put up against that, I'd

6 like to hear that, but even if we do admit them at this stage, we will

7 direct the Prosecution to follow up that particular issue with the Red

8 Cross.

9 The prospects of having any success with the Red Cross or the

10 ICRC - we must keep the two entities quite separate - the prospects of any

11 success of having assistance from the ICRC are, I'm afraid, minimal. They

12 seem to think they are well above ever giving assistance to people in

13 relation to material which one would normally have expected them to give

14 that assistance.

15 So is there anything you want to add to what you've said about the

16 admissibility of these documents?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I have already

18 pointed out the reasons for my concern. That is what the Defence does not

19 accept with regard to 240/5, this list of persons, 266 persons about whom

20 information was received over the telephone. We want to see what the

21 source is, what the basis is for this list of 266 persons directly related

22 to the KP Dom Foca. That is what we're actually dealing with and have

23 been doing so for almost five months now.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, well thank you very much indeed.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 4322

1 JUDGE HUNT: The Trial Chamber is of the opinion that the

2 documents are admissible. The documents to which objection has been taken

3 are admissible. The weight to be given to them later is a matter for

4 argument after all the evidence has been given.

5 Mr. Smith, however, the Trial Chamber does propose to require you

6 to obtain from this witness the source material for 240/5 and to seek from

7 the Red Cross assistance in obtaining what we can as to the manner in

8 which their document and 240/7 were compiled or given to them.

9 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. In relation to --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. SMITH: In relation to the source material, are Your

12 Honours --

13 JUDGE HUNT: The witness said that it would take a couple of days.

14 MR. SMITH: To identify the particular sources as opposed to

15 providing --

16 JUDGE HUNT: That's right.

17 MR. SMITH: -- all of the material, so --

18 JUDGE HUNT: Let us have the source material, which would no doubt

19 refer to documents as well, as soon as we can. And then

20 Mr. Bakrac might be able to identify which of those he seeks to have some

21 documentary evidence as well, which would save a lot of trouble for the

22 witness.

23 MR. SMITH: We'll do that, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Because the Trial Chamber is mainly concerned with

25 the 40-odd names we have now rather than the particular details of the


Page 4323












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4324

1 266.

2 Very well, then, those documents will become P240/1, P240/3,

3 P240/4, P240/5, P240/6, and P240/7. Do any of them need to be

4 under seal? I would not have thought so.

5 MR. SMITH: No.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, is that the end of this witness's

7 evidence now?

8 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Vasic, cross-examination.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Masovic. I would like to introduce myself to

13 you. My name is Miroslav Vasic, I am an attorney at law, and I'm one

14 of the Defence counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac.

15 First of all, I would like to ask you something. Since we speak

16 the same language, after I put my question, could you wait for a very

17 short while so that the interpreters could interpret my question and then

18 you give your answer so that everybody in this courtroom can understand

19 what you have been saying. So I hope that we are going to overcome the

20 kind of problems that we have invariably been making for interpreters.

21 JUDGE HUNT: May I add to that instruction, Mr. Masovic, you

22 should, you should know that the interpreters work about half a sentence

23 behind the speaker, so you have to give them a substantial pause before

24 you answer the question. Just imagine that there are 10 to 15 words yet

25 to be translated and you'll get some idea of the time you should wait

Page 4325

1 before you start your answer.

2 A. Your Honour, I have understood this. If it is possible to listen

3 to the English interpretation through my headphones, could I please have

4 the English channel in my headphones and then I will wait for the English

5 to finish before I start replying in Bosnian.

6 JUDGE HUNT: If you wish, yes, certainly. It will be channel 4.

7 You may like to turn it down so it doesn't actually distract you.

8 A. Your Honour, now we really have a problem. I would like to hear

9 the question in Bosnian, then the interpretation in English. Is that

10 possible?

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour, perhaps

12 the best would be if the witness were to follow the transcript. Perhaps

13 he might find that helpful.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Masovic, have you got the transcript coming up

15 before you on the screen?

16 A. Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you'll be able to see when the court reporter

18 has finished typing, that means the end of the translation. They're

19 very quick, they're almost up to the interpretation. So wait till you see

20 the typing stop and then you give your answer. That is a very good idea.

21 I think we tried it out once before with a witness who did manage to

22 follow that.

23 A. I'll do my best, Your Honour.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Thank you, sir. I will change the sequence of my questions,

Page 4326

1 bearing in mind the decision of the Trial Chamber regarding the documents,

2 I will ask you to look first at document 240/7.

3 Today in response to a question from my learned friend, you said

4 you received this document at a meeting of the working group of the ICRC,

5 from the International Red Cross, and that the entire document was in the

6 English language, and that it was a photocopy of the original that you

7 received. Can you please tell me, in the second line of the title of this

8 document, is it true that in a language other than English, it says, "the

9 army of Republika Srpska," and was this sentence there in the original

10 text that you received?

11 A. Yes. I definitely claim that this is a document compiled entirely

12 in the English language. The words, "the army of Republika Srpska" denote

13 the name of a local army, and it's impossible to use English words for

14 that. Whereas other words, such as "detention," "prison," and the names

15 of various graves, name of father, DOB, et cetera, are in the English

16 language. And this is the document as we received it in the original.

17 This is just the photocopy.

18 Q. Mr. Masovic, I would perhaps agree with you, but looking at this

19 text I cannot reconcile these words "the army of Republika Srpska" with

20 the rest of the sentence because it says, after that, "list of detainees

21 notified by authorities but never seen by representatives of the Red

22 Cross." And just after that, it says, out of nowhere, "vojska

23 Republika Srpska," in the Bosnian language. Do you see any sense in that?

24 A. Of course.

25 Q. Will you then please explain what is actually the content of this

Page 4327

1 sentence?

2 A. The only thing, the only words written in the local language are

3 the words denoting the name of the army, and the name of the army is

4 vojska Republika Srpska, and the International Committee of the Red Cross

5 just use the original name of that army in the local language. All other

6 words, including the names of detainees themselves, are written in such a

7 way that words typical of the local language are missing. There are no

8 letters such as "dz," "sh," "ch," "ts" [phoen] which are missing in the

9 English language.

10 Q. Sir, I understand what you're saying, but you seem to be saying

11 that the words "vojska Republika Srpska" are written here in the local

12 language because they denote the name of that army. But the place where

13 these words are used are not in the context of this document. That's what

14 I'm asking. These words do not seem to belong in the context which would

15 be understandable in view of the title of this document.

16 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest the question you should ask is, Why do

17 you understand there was any reference to the army of Republika Srpska in

18 the document at all? That might get you what you want.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Did you hear the Presiding Judge?

21 A. Yes, I did. But I have no answer to that question. That question

22 should be asked of the person who compiled the original document. I

23 cannot answer that question because it was not my commission that was the

24 author of this document. You should ask the ICRC why these words are

25 there and why they put them there.

Page 4328

1 Q. Thank you, sir. During your examination-in-chief, you said in

2 response to my learned friend's question, you mentioned the percentage of

3 Croat population in the Foca municipality. Can you tell us the percentage

4 of the Muslim population in Foca municipality in 1992?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you please give us that figure.

7 A. 20.898, or just over 51 per cent of the entire population of Foca

8 municipality.

9 Q. Thank you. You said, and it also says so in your report, that on

10 the territory of Foca municipality on 156 sites, you found 430 bodies

11 claimed to be members of the Muslim ethnic group, except for a smaller

12 number of Croats and one Serbian woman who was married to a Muslim. You

13 have also told us that your commission knows that the number of missing

14 persons of Serbian ethnicity is 1.500.

15 Do you have any knowledge as to whether corpses of Serbs have been

16 exhumed on the territory of Foca municipality?

17 A. No. I didn't say that on 156 sites, 430 victims of Bosniaks,

18 Croats, and one Serb were found. I said 375 victims were found and

19 identified, out of which 374 were identified as Bosniaks and one

20 person named Jelena Srnja was identified as a Montenegrin. I didn't say

21 that we exhumed and located any corpses of Croat victims.

22 It is a separate question concerning missing persons of Serbian

23 ethnicity, and according to a part of our records, and in particular I

24 believe the records kept by the Serbian commission, persons who were

25 notified to the ICRC, that number is between 12 and 1500. We don't have

Page 4329

1 the exact figure of those missing persons. And I stress that this number

2 does not relate to the territory of Foca municipality but to the territory

3 of the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 Q. Do you know, perhaps, whether there have been any exhumations of

5 missing Serbian persons on the territory of Foca municipality?

6 A. I cannot answer that precisely. As far as our commission is

7 concerned, there have been no such exhumations, and I think it's difficult

8 to assume that such exhumations have been conducted at all because the

9 entire territory of Foca municipality was held by Bosnian Serb forces

10 throughout the war. It is possible that there were victims in the first

11 days of the conflict and that a number of Bosnian Serbs were killed in

12 those first days and their graves have not been located to this day, but I

13 don't have any knowledge about this.

14 Q. Do you know the localities of Josanica and a place called Jabuka

15 where in December 1992, Muslim forces killed a large number of Serb

16 civilians?

17 A. Yes. I know of these localities, but I know them for something

18 else, because my teams conducted exhumations on those sites. And if you

19 look at list B, annex 2, which I believe is included in the evidence,

20 you will see in group number one under number four, locality called

21 "Jabuka"; and I believe that also in the territory of Josanica a number

22 of victims has been exhumed. But in all cases, the victims were of

23 Bosniak ethnicity.

24 Q. Does that mean that you have no information related to the events

25 which took place on the 19th of December, 1992, in Josanica?

Page 4330

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. I have no knowledge of these events.

4 Q. From our colleagues in the Office of the Prosecutor, the Defence

5 received two overviews of localities where exhumations were conducted

6 indicating the number of victims found, and the figures for these

7 localities do not correspond, either in terms of the number of victims or

8 in terms of the place where they were found. I don't know whether you

9 have these two lists in front of you. They were introduced as P240/1.

10 A. I'm not sure I do have a photocopy because it consists of two A4

11 sheets.

12 Q. If you don't have it, I can read out the figures for these

13 locations, these sites, and you can just try to explain the discrepancies.

14 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, if I can just interject here. The

15 Prosecution had provided the Defence with a copy of an exhumation -- of

16 the Foca municipality and the exhumation sites, and that was whilst work

17 was, work was in progress in preparing it, and since such time, the

18 witness had provided a final version of that document which is before you

19 today. The previous one hasn't been entered into evidence at all, but it

20 was provided to the Defence a couple of weeks ago as work in progress, and

21 since such time, the witness provided some revisions to that map, and they

22 were included in the map that we all have here today.

23 So perhaps if that previous map can be put to him and he can

24 explain away the differences, but it was a work in progress.

25 JUDGE HUNT: The question is not directed to any particular

Page 4331

1 overview that you had provided, the first or the second.

2 Which one is it you're referring to, Mr. Vasic?

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] There are discrepancies between these

4 overviews, but my learned friend has just answered my question, it seems

5 to me. I was just going to ask this witness why there are discrepancies

6 in the number of victims found in different locations in the exhibit

7 number 240/1 and the same exhibit that we received from the OTP.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think that answers the whole problem. We can

9 proceed to something new. Thank you.

10 Thank you, Mr. Smith.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Sir, you have mentioned that 55 unidentified corpses remain, and

13 that in your opinion, it can be claimed without -- beyond reasonable doubt

14 that these persons were of Bosniak ethnicity. Can you please tell us,

15 what are the grounds for your opinion?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please go ahead.

18 A. I have already answered this question in my -- yesterday's

19 testimony, but I will repeat it. When we locate the sites of individual

20 or mass graves, we are accompanied by witnesses who know something about

21 these graves, either because they directly were present during the

22 liquidation of the victims, or they found out about the localities of the

23 graves and the identity of the victims from other sources.

24 You are probably aware that Bosniak Serbs, Bosnian Muslims, and

25 Bosnian Croats lived in a mixed community for a long time, and that there

Page 4332












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4333

1 were many mixed marriages, that they are interrelated and have friendly

2 ties, and that still today there are Bosnian Serbs who revealed to Muslim

3 families information about the disappearance of their relatives, the

4 latter's relatives.

5 So based on the testimonies of witnesses who accompany us during

6 the exhumation, and based on the localities of these individual or mass

7 graves, which means within villages populated mainly by Bosniaks, based on

8 the clothing found on the victims, which is typical of one or the other or

9 the third ethnicity, I said that I can conclude beyond any reasonable

10 doubt that the victims in question are Bosniak Muslims, that is, those 55

11 unidentified victims.

12 I also said during my testimony that in certain cases, such as the

13 case of the Ratine barn, we even know the identity of the 24 Bosnian

14 Muslims who were killed, but we were not able to confirm it because we

15 couldn't conduct the identification due to the fact that the bodies were

16 completely incinerated since the barn was set on fire after the victims

17 were already placed inside it, and the remains are completely destroyed.

18 Q. So in this case, if I understood you correctly, there is no

19 indicator whatsoever to point to the identity of these people, except some

20 witness testimonies. Is that what you said during your

21 examination-in-chief? I mean the village of Ratine.

22 A. Yes. A witness who survived the execution confirmed that the

23 victims in question were 24 Bosnian Muslims with whom he was in the same

24 camp and with whom he was put on two trucks, and he could not -- his truck

25 went the other way after these 24 were liquidated. And also, there are

Page 4334

1 other sources which indicate that these people were Bosnian Muslims. And

2 I repeat again, in my view, this is beyond any reasonable doubt.

3 Q. Speaking about this locality, do you mean to say that this witness

4 did not know any of the victims, considering that they were not

5 identified?

6 A. On the contrary, the witness knew each one of the 24 victims,

7 because he had shared the same prison cell at the camp with them, but we

8 were unable to conduct the identification because there was no material

9 for identification, because all the 24 corpses were incinerated, burned

10 completely. And since I attended this exhumation, I can remember that we

11 found only parts of both pelvic bones and some vertebrae of the spine of

12 one of the victims, whereas all the others were completely burnt and only

13 parts of their skeletons remained, pieces of small bones, and I believe

14 30 cases of bullets of automatic weapons were also found at the sites.

15 Among the bones, four rounds were found. But based on what we brought

16 back to the mortuary, we could not confirm that the victims were the

17 relatives of the families waiting to take over the remains. And we had

18 only four or five body bags, plastic body bags, containing all those

19 remains mixed together because it was impossible to separate them on the

20 spot.

21 Q. So the families of the victims refused to identify those remains

22 as the remains of their relatives, despite the testimony of the witness

23 that you mentioned?

24 A. The families did not refuse to identify them. It's just that we

25 were unable to determine which parts of the incinerated bones belonged to

Page 4335

1 which former inmate. We were unable to say that a certain part of the

2 skeleton belonged to person A, that another belonged to person B. That's

3 what I'm saying. So it was impossible for any family member to determine

4 which remains belonged to his particular relative.

5 Q. Are we talking here about inmates from Kalinovik, because you said

6 they were former inmates?

7 A. If I remember correctly the testimony of this survivor of the

8 execution, this witness, I believe that the persons were former inmates of

9 the Kalinovik prison. I cannot be precise. I cannot claim this for sure.

10 Q. Thank you. You said that one of the criteria you used as a basis

11 for your conclusion that those people were Bosnian Muslims beyond any

12 reasonable doubt was also the ethnic structure of the villages where they

13 were found. Is it the case that all of these 55 victims were found in

14 villages which were purely Muslim?

15 A. I cannot give you a precise answer. I can only tell you that some

16 of these victims were found in their own villages, some of these 55

17 unidentified victims. And I believe we have unidentified victims from the

18 village of Jelec, which is almost exclusively Muslim. They're populated

19 entirely by Muslims except for one person of Montenegrin nationality,

20 which I mentioned earlier, the woman who was married to a Muslim by the

21 name of Jelena Srnja. So a number of the victims came from Jelec, a

22 number from Ustikolina, from Cvilin, from Zebina Suma, I believe a number

23 of them came from Godijeno. I really cannot tell you precisely. We did

24 not analyse this list of exhumed persons by their former residence.

25 Q. Thank you. Please tell us, based on what data do you conclude

Page 4336

1 that these victims were killed in their own villages when you have no

2 information about them?

3 A. Which victims do you mean? You mean these 55?

4 Q. Yes, the 55 unidentified ones that we're discussing.

5 A. I said most of them were found in the villages where they were

6 born and where they lived. That's what we assume because those were

7 mass graves, and if you find in a mass grave four, five, or more bodies

8 and you manage to identify some of them and you fail to identify others,

9 then you can logically conclude that these persons are recorded as

10 missing, as gone missing in the same incident or during the liquidation of

11 the persons who were identified.

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid it's 1.00.

13 JUDGE HUNT: We will adjourn until 2.30.

14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.












Page 4337

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Masovic. Are you ready to continue?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Before the break, you said that some of the 55

7 identified corpses are assumed to be -- to belong to Bosniaks due to the

8 location where they were found and because, at the same location, some

9 bodies identified as Bosniaks were also found. However, in the exhibit

10 240/1, there are indicated 11 locations containing 15 bodies found either

11 in individual graves or not a single victim was identified.

12 Out of those 15, can you please tell us, why do you believe they

13 belong to Bosnian Muslims?

14 A. I cannot give you a precise answer as to why, on what basis, but

15 in addition to the facts I have already mentioned in my previous

16 testimony, I can indicate an additional fact which indicates that these

17 persons are indeed of Bosniak ethnicity. Namely, the entire territory

18 where exhumations were conducted were, for four years, from April 1992

19 until the signing of the Dayton Accords in November 1995, this entire

20 territory was under the control of Serbian authorities and Serbian

21 authorities were able to conduct exhumations of these victims. However,

22 in all these four years, they never did so, and that is another reason

23 which confirms our opinion that these victims are of Bosniak ethnicity,

24 that is to say, in addition to the other reasons I have already

25 mentioned.

Page 4338

1 Q. Do you know whether in the territory of these localities there was

2 any fighting?

3 A. Yes, yes. In some of these localities, there were sporadic

4 clashes. This primarily relates to location number one, which was closest

5 to the line of confrontation between the two armies. All other locations

6 were primarily deep, deep into the territory controlled by the Serb

7 authorities and the Serbian army. It is only location one that is near

8 the confrontation line, the separation line.

9 Q. What about location two?

10 A. At the area where the bodies were located is not near the

11 separation lines. This is Paunci, Cvilin, and I think some other

12 villages, Lisovici, Previla. I cannot remember all the locations right

13 now, but this is not in the immediate vicinity of the separation lines.

14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how far away these places are from the

15 separation line?

16 A. If we're talking about location number two, I think that it is

17 more than two kilometres away from the line of separation.

18 Q. I mentioned locations where victims were found and where not a

19 single one of them was identified. One of the criteria that you said led

20 to the conclusion that these persons were ethnic Muslims is the ethnic

21 composition of the towns and villages where they were.

22 Do you think that Ustikolina was a purely Muslim town?

23 A. No. According to the census from 1991, 745 Muslims lived in

24 Ustikolina, and 249 Bosnian Serbs.

25 Q. What about Tekija?

Page 4339

1 A. I think that this is a location -- actually, there are two

2 locations that are called Tekija. Tekija is a location within the town of

3 Foca itself, and also I think there is one called Tekijska Cuprija, the

4 bridge of Tekija, which is close to Jelec. I'm not aware of the ethnic

5 composition of the population in that area before the war.

6 Q. What about the area of Jabuka; do you know what the composition of

7 the population was there?

8 A. This is not a densely-populated area. These are mountain passes,

9 so there weren't many households in the community of Jabuka. I'm not sure

10 about the ethnic composition of the population in that area; however,

11 there were relatively few inhabitants compared to all the other local

12 communities on the territory of the municipality of Foca.

13 Q. What was the ethnic makeup of Filipovic like?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. What about Medjelici [phoen]?

16 A. I think the place is called Mrdjelici, but I am not aware of the

17 ethnic composition of the population.

18 Q. You're right, I misread it. Thank you. Furthermore, the next

19 criterion you mentioned was the clothes that the women wore, ethnic

20 Muslims, the women. And on which basis do you draw your conclusions for

21 the male part of the population?

22 A. A lot of the rural population among the ethnic Muslims wears what

23 we called French caps, berets, and also tespihs were found that are

24 characteristics for all Muslims. They are like good-luck charms.

25 Q. Since you are not aware of the ethnic composition of these

Page 4340

1 villages, what about these 15 persons? Did you find any good-luck charms

2 or did you find any clothes that would be characteristic of the Muslim

3 women?

4 A. As for the Muslim women, what is characteristic for their clothing

5 is the so-called dimija [phoen] pantaloons that are worn by Bosnian Muslim

6 women only; however, I cannot say whether these elements of clothing were

7 found

8 precisely at these 15 sites that you mentioned.

9 Q. Thank you. Tell me, what about women who were ethnic Serbs, like

10 Mrs. Jelena Srnja, I think that's the name you mentioned. Did they wear

11 the same kind of clothing that ethnic Muslim women did, those who were

12 married to Muslims, I mean?

13 A. I'm not aware of any case when women of Serb ethnicity wore dimija

14 pantaloons.

15 Q. Thank you. I would now like to ask you to take a look at 240/2.

16 That is a list of the exhumations that were carried out in the

17 municipality of Foca. Can you tell me whether the cause and time of death

18 were established in the case of every victim that was found?

19 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I believe my friend is referring to

20 240/3.

21 JUDGE HUNT: I wouldn't know. Just check, would you please,

22 Mr. Vasic.

23 MR. SMITH: 240/2 wasn't tendered, but 240/3 lists the

24 identifications of the victims.

25 JUDGE HUNT: You're correct that 240/2 was not tendered, but he's

Page 4341












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4342

1 got it in the file, and I just don't know what you mean, Mr. Vasic.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I wish to thank my learned friend; it

3 is indeed 240/3.

4 A. In most of these cases, 430 namely, the cause of death had been

5 established. In some cases, it was not possible to establish the cause of

6 death. I already talked about some of these cases, like, for example, the

7 burned bodies at Ratine, et cetera. This is the job of our forensic

8 experts, so I cannot speak about this with great precision. I cannot talk

9 about the cause of death of each and every one of these 430 victims.

10 Q. Yesterday, in response to my learned friend's question, you stated

11 that these persons had been killed. How come you now cannot speak of the

12 cause of their death?

13 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I'm not meaning to interject, but

14 yesterday he said that he knew the causes of death of about 90 per cent of

15 the, of the victims, not the, not the complete number.

16 A. I wish to thank the Prosecutor. I know precisely what I said

17 yesterday. I said that in over 90 per cent of all cases the cause of

18 death was established and I mentioned in which way. Multiple exit/entry

19 wounds, gunshot wounds, and I mentioned that natural causes of death were

20 established in a few cases. These were persons who did not die of a

21 violent death.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Today in response to my question you said that you cannot speak

24 with any precision about the individual cause of death of every one of

25 these persons.

Page 4343

1 A. Yes. In relation to every specific name, I cannot give you that

2 kind of answer. If you give me the name and surname of a particular

3 person, I cannot tell you whether that particular person died of a violent

4 cause of death or natural cause of death, in which way. I cannot do it

5 that way.

6 Q. Thank you. Was the time of death established in the case of these

7 persons?

8 A. I think on the basis of other indirect evidence, like eyewitness

9 statements, it was only established that this happened in a certain month

10 or in a certain year. As for accurate dates, in a large number of cases

11 they were not established, that is to say, the day, month, and year of

12 each death case because, for the most part, it was only skeletal remains

13 that were found in most of these 430 victims, and even the most up-to-date

14 scientific methods cannot establish with certainty the date, month, and

15 year of death in such cases.

16 Q. If I understood you correctly, only in the case of a few victims

17 on the basis of eyewitness statements, the date, month, and year of birth

18 (sic) were established; in the case of others, it was impossible to

19 establish that. Is my understanding correct?

20 A. My answer is that in the case of a relative majority, the month

21 and year of death were established. Actually, I think that the year of

22 death was established for all cases, and in the case of a relative

23 majority of the victims, the month was established too. In certain cases

24 only, when there were eyewitnesses who were present during the

25 liquidation, even the date, the day of liquidation, of their death, that

Page 4344

1 is, was established.

2 Q. I would be interested in hearing how -- on the basis of what was

3 the year of death established in so many cases?

4 A. In a vast majority, in a vast majority, with the exception of less

5 than ten cases, it was 1992. This can be claimed on the basis of the fact

6 that basically by the end of 1992, the territory of the municipality of

7 Foca has been under the control of the Serb authorities and the Serb

8 military. Only site number one, which is in the immediate vicinity of the

9 line of separation, is -- actually, the line was moved there. The

10 government forces for a given amount of time held this territory, and then

11 the territory was recaptured by the Serb authorities once again, or

12 rather, the Serb military. So on the 12th of August, I think, 1992, the

13 town of Foca was left by the last Bosnian Muslims. A certain person by

14 the name of Gagovic ordered, I think, the deportation of these persons in

15 five buses to the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. They were not

16 taken in there. They were returned to the Republic of Montenegro, and I

17 think in the town of Rozaje, that's where they were deported. They

18 continued living in that Montenegrin town. Even before the 12th of

19 August, 1992, over 50 per cent of the Bosnian Muslim population withdrew

20 as the Serb forces were advancing along the banks of the Drina and

21 Cehotina rivers, that is to say, downstream, down the Drina towards

22 Ustikolina and then Gorazde.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Please slow down a little bit, sir. You are going

24 very quickly again.

25 A. Part of the civilian Muslim population sought shelter in forests,

Page 4345

1 and the mountains of Tjentiste, Zelengora, and Vucevo, and then they went

2 all around through the pass of Rogoj to the territory of Trnovo which was

3 under the control of government forces. That is to say, that by the end

4 of 1992, there was practically no Muslim population in the territory of

5 the municipality of Foca.

6 I already mentioned some cases, some Bosnian Muslims who remained

7 in the town of Foca who expressed their loyalty to the Serb forces, and

8 these are the only Bosnian Muslims who were in the territory of Foca in

9 1992, in addition to those who were detained at the KP Dom Foca.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So it is on the basis of this reason that you came to the

12 conclusion that these persons were killed by the end of 1992?

13 A. No. This is only one of the reasons, and I said in most cases the

14 witnesses who were present during the executions and the witnesses who

15 managed to get away as the Serb forces were advancing testified to the

16 fact that, on a given day, some of the members of their families remained

17 in their houses and their villages at the moment when the Serb forces

18 entered those villages.

19 Q. So they were not eyewitnesses of the actual event; they left the

20 village, and they knew that their relatives had stayed behind. Did I

21 understand you correctly?

22 A. In some cases, we have actual eyewitnesses of the events

23 concerned, and in other cases it was done on the basis of what people saw

24 when they were leaving their villages.

25 Q. Can you tell me about those 375 exhumed persons. In how many

Page 4346

1 cases do you have eyewitnesses who spoke of how these persons lost their

2 lives?

3 A. In a smaller number of cases we have eyewitnesses of the direct

4 execution, and in most cases we have eyewitnesses -- or rather, witnesses

5 testifying to the fact that their relatives remained in the village, in

6 their houses, at their farms, at the moment when the Serb forces entered

7 their villages. These witnesses, at the same time, testified to the fact

8 that on the same day or -- that a few days later, these houses were

9 torched. So the conclusion can be reached that these persons died during

10 that month, and it may even be possible to establish the exact date.

11 Q. Thank you. The state commission made a list of persons who went

12 missing in the municipality of Foca, that's what you said. That's

13 P240/4. You've also said that these data were entered into the computer

14 database on the same day or within 15 or 30 days if there were several

15 persons involved. Is this the database concerning missing persons?

16 A. Yes. But in the war period, there was also a database on

17 prisoners of war and persons deprived of their liberty; that is to say,

18 those who did not appear after the war, those who had not been heard of

19 since then, their data were transferred to the database of missing

20 persons.

21 Q. Was the same procedure of data entry applied for persons who were

22 last seen at the KP Dom?

23 A. Yes. However, when this specific list was compiled, the one that

24 you are referring to, as it was being drafted, we consulted other reports

25 in writing and also other witness statements and other local sources of

Page 4347

1 information like War Presidencies, et cetera.

2 Q. Could you please now take a look at document 240/5, the one that

3 we've just started discussing. In the last column headed "month of

4 disappearance, 1992," will you agree that it is the months of April and

5 May that are mentioned in most cases?

6 A. Yes. I think that it can be said that it is predominantly the

7 months of April and May.

8 Q. According to the information that your commission has, is that the

9 month when these persons went missing, these persons who haven't been

10 heard from since?

11 A. These months that were mentioned were taken over from the records

12 of the International Red Cross, and they need not necessarily correspond

13 to our records. In our records, we try to mention the exact date

14 according to what a family member had stated, that is to say, the exact

15 day, month, and year when a certain person went missing.

16 In preparation of this document, we drew on data from the

17 International Red Cross, their files, not our records which are somewhat

18 more accurate in this respect.

19 Q. If you drew on data from the International Red Cross, can you tell

20 us on the basis of what was -- were these records kept in the

21 International Red Cross stating that these persons went missing in April

22 or May 1992; are you aware of that?

23 A. I'm not aware of that information, and I think this is a question

24 that should be put to the International Red Cross which compiled these

25 records.

Page 4348

1 Q. But you knew at the moment of generation of this document that

2 your data was more precise. You also knew of the document marked here as

3 P240/7, that is, the list received by the International Red Cross from

4 Serbian authorities, and you were aware that these months of disappearance

5 do not correspond with your data. Why didn't you use your data which is

6 more accurate, but rather, presented us with this information which is not

7 quite accurate?

8 A. I wouldn't use the term "inaccurate data." There are probably

9 data here which completely coincide. I mean our data and those of the Red

10 Cross. And the fact that in the document 240/7 there are elements which

11 do not completely coincide with 240/5, there is an explanation for that.

12 And the explanation is that in the document 240/5, the disappearance was

13 reported by family members, whereas in document 240/7, the presence of

14 some of these persons was notified by prison authorities to the

15 International Red Cross, and the International Red Cross obviously did not

16 deem it as coinciding. Obviously, the International Red Cross adhered

17 more to written statements and reports by families. If necessary, I can

18 explain to you the details of that procedure.

19 Members of the close family must present themselves at the

20 organisation of the Red Cross in Bosnia and Herzegovina, or anywhere else

21 in the world - it must be a member of the family in the strict sense - and

22 report the disappearance of their relative, of their family member.

23 Representatives of the International Red Cross refuse reports which

24 originate from members of the extended family or a witness. In fact, over

25 the past year, I believe, the International Red Cross has been trying to

Page 4349

1 change their own procedure to make admissible reports made by former

2 inmates or witnesses who have some knowledge about the disappearance of a

3 person.

4 Q. Yes, sir, but you said this document was prepared by the state

5 commission. Why didn't you include in it the more precise data about the

6 time of disappearance that you had at your disposal? That is what I would

7 like to know.

8 A. In certain cases, we do not have the exact date of disappearance.

9 In a small number of cases, I believe, we don't even have any information

10 about the place or date of disappearance, so that this column in our

11 records remains empty. And we decided, therefore, when preparing the

12 document for the purposes of this trial, to use the documentation we

13 received from the ICRC which in its turn is based on written reports made

14 by family members.

15 Q. When you say the day of disappearance, do you mean the date after

16 which the person has never been seen again?

17 A. We understand the term "day of disappearance" to mean the date

18 when the person was last seen in a certain place.

19 Q. So you maintain that the majority of people on this list, 240/5,

20 were last seen in a certain place in April or May 1992.

21 A. I said these details of the date and month of disappearance were

22 taken over from the documentation of the International Red Cross, from

23 volume which contains more than 20.000 names of all persons who, according

24 to reports made by members of their close family, were reported to the

25 ICRC as missing. We indicated the dates listed in that volume. However,

Page 4350












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Page 4351

1 in certain cases, this particular record indicates the precise date given

2 by close family members to be April or May 1992, and in certain cases,

3 only the month is indicated.

4 Q. Can you please tell us the title of that book of records?

5 A. I cannot quote the exact title, the full title, but I believe that

6 in English it is -- in fact, there are two volumes. One is a record of

7 all persons or missing persons in the alphabet order, all of them,

8 regardless of their ethnicity; and the other volume classifies these

9 missing persons according to the place of disappearance, which in some

10 cases is the municipality and in some cases a distinction is made between

11 neighbourhoods within a certain municipality. I believe I have one of

12 these volumes in my hotel room.

13 Q. Can you please tell me the year of publication of this volume so

14 that the Defence can find it.

15 A. I believe the last edition was in 1998. I believe I may be of

16 assistance to the Defence in this respect.

17 Q. The Defence asked the questions about the date and month of

18 disappearance because we -- it seems to us that these dates and months

19 refer rather to the time when these persons were taken to the KP Dom.

20 Bearing in mind your database, would you agree with our opinion?

21 A. Yes, I absolutely agree, based on what I see, it is probably the

22 date when they were last seen alive by members of their families. And it

23 is evident that many of these people were alive after April or May 1992

24 because some of them were also seen by their former co-inmates, in June or

25 July. I paid special attention to information about Dr. Aziz Torlak who

Page 4352

1 was in the KP Dom in June 1992, although it says in this list that the

2 month of his disappearance is April or May.

3 Q. You mentioned Aziz Torlak. Are you sure that this case that you

4 mentioned happened in 1992? Do you allow the possibility that it may have

5 happened in 1993?

6 A. No, Aziz Torlak was detained in April 1992, according to

7 statements by former inmates, and on several occasions during visits at

8 the ICRC to the KP Dom in Foca, he was concealed from the ICRC and could

9 therefore not be registered by the representatives of the Red Cross. And

10 I believe it was on the 3rd of July, 1993, that he was taken out. He had

11 collected all his things and he never came back, nor has his body ever

12 been found. I don't think he ever came back alive.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Masovic, I remind you that if you watch the

14 transcript before you answer; you came in very early there, and the

15 interpreters were a long way behind you.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Do you know whether on this 3rd of July, 1993, Dr. Aziz Torlak was

18 taken to Pale, perhaps? Do you know that?

19 A. I have already said that I was particularly interested in this

20 case because his wife, who is also a doctor, came very often to the

21 headquarters of our commission in Sarajevo. And regarding this doctor,

22 the information which reached our commission was -- we had a wide range of

23 information. Some said that he was seen on the road to Montenegro, that

24 he was released, that he was working in a Serbian hospital in Sokolac.

25 There was speculation that he may have been killed on the same day when he

Page 4353

1 was taken away from the KP Dom and that his body was incinerated.

2 So I emphasise that in all these cases, the sources were not

3 reliable enough for me to believe any of these stories about the fate of

4 Dr. Torlak.

5 Q. I would like to come back to this list 240/5, and I would like to

6 ask you, could you tell me the sources on the basis of which you entered

7 these names into your records of missing persons for each person, name by

8 name?

9 A. Not at this moment, but our database in Sarajevo contains precise

10 information about the sources which resulted in this data being entered.

11 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to know if you could do it today, but I

12 hope we will receive this information from our learned colleagues from the

13 Office of the Prosecutor.

14 Sir, you said that out of 266 persons listed in document 240/5,

15 exhumation and identification were made in two cases. Is that correct?

16 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question. All these

17 victims -- oh, I'm sorry. You mean the list 240/5.

18 Q. Yes. The list of 266 persons which you say were last seen in the

19 KP Dom. My question is, you said that in two cases, the victims were

20 exhumed and identified.

21 A. This list, if my understanding is correct, includes persons which

22 were last seen in the KP Dom Foca and which have not been exhumed to

23 date.

24 Q. I'm sorry, I understand now.

25 A. You may have meant a different list containing data on exhumed

Page 4354

1 bodies. That is a different list. I believe the number is 240/3.

2 Q. List 240/3 contains data on exhumed bodies. But you said in your

3 examination-in-chief that only two persons whose bodies were exhumed and

4 identified were persons who you know were last seen in the KP Dom in

5 Foca.

6 A. Yes. One of them is number 57, Murat Crneta, and person under

7 number 185, Halid Konjo. Although we believe the other five persons whose

8 bodies were in the same mass grave were also former inmates of the KP Dom,

9 but we have no proof of that because those bodies were not identified,

10 except the case we mentioned yesterday when a trade union card was found

11 in the name of Sulejman Celik, and the man was really in the KP Dom in

12 Foca, but the body has not been identified today.

13 And we have reason to believe that the other five bodies belong

14 also to former inmates of the KP Dom Foca, also because we have testimony

15 of a Bosnian Serb which I also mentioned yesterday.

16 Q. Why weren't you able to identify the remaining five bodies?

17 A. We had very scarce material for identification, unlike the cases

18 of the two identified ones, Crneta and Halid Konjo. And I would also like

19 to stress that this trade union card was not found in the clothing of the

20 victim, but in the mud some 20 or 30 centimetres deep in the bed of the

21 brook, and it was not linked with a particular body.

22 In some cases, there were enough -- in those two cases which I

23 mentioned, Crneta and Konjo, there were sufficient elements for the family

24 members, the wife and other family members, to identify the victims as

25 their own family.

Page 4355

1 Q. And did you inform the family or invite the family of Sulejman

2 Celik to try and identify the body?

3 A. I'm not sure because the identification was handled by the police

4 in Gorazde, and it took place four or five days after we finished the

5 exhumation, so I cannot tell you for sure. But as a rule, we try to

6 inform and to bring to the identification all those persons who may assist

7 the identification; however, in the case of Sulejman Celik, I cannot give

8 you a definitive answer.

9 Q. Yesterday in response to my learned friend's question, you said

10 that you found this location based on the statement of a Serb. Can you

11 tell us who that person is?

12 A. The local police, as I said yesterday, the local police in Gorazde

13 received a statement from that man, and if necessary, I will repeat the

14 part of the statement which I heard.

15 Q. I heard that part of the statement; that's not what my question is

16 about.

17 A. I don't know the name of that witness.

18 Q. Can you find out the name of that witness, should that become

19 necessary? Does the police in Gorazde have that information, or does the

20 statement you received from the police contain the name?

21 A. I'm not sure what the police procedures are, but I can only speak

22 about the practices of our commission. If we receive a letter or we

23 receive a telephone call or an oral statement from a Bosnian Serb or a

24 Bosnian Croat or somebody else, claiming that they have certain knowledge

25 about the existence of individual or mass graves and wish to assist

Page 4356

1 in the location of those graves, without wishing to reveal their own

2 identity, we never insisted on that because we did not think it was of

3 crucial importance for our job, which is the tracing of missing persons.

4 Q. I agree with you, but please tell me, in this case, was the

5 identity of the witness protected from the police, or in other words, what

6 did you actually receive from the police?

7 A. I couldn't tell you that. I don't know whether his identity is

8 protected. All we received was information that the police has

9 information about the precise location, and that it received that

10 information from a person residing in the immediate vicinity of that

11 location, and who saw 12, repeat 12, inmates on that day. I underline the

12 number because we were able to find the remains of only seven inmates.

13 Q. Does this report contain any clarification about how this witness

14 knows that the persons in question were inmates, and were they escorted by

15 the army, convoyed by the army?

16 A. Sir, I have just told you all that I know. In other words, I

17 don't have any information about who escorted them.

18 Q. Thank you. Regarding the bodies, did you attend this particular

19 exhumation?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you tell us, were these victims all dressed in the same

22 clothes, according to what you were able to find on that site?

23 A. We didn't find clothes on all of the victims. We found clothes on

24 Murat Crneta. I believe he had some green trousers on and a blue shirt,

25 white sneakers.

Page 4357

1 As for Halid Konjo, we found a watch, a Seiko watch on

2 his hand, a knitted belt on his waist, a wedding ring recognised by his

3 wife, and some other objects. However, this particular bed of the brook

4 is flooded twice a year, so since 1992 -- from 1992 until November 1997

5 when we conducted the exhumation, the water washed away some of the bones

6 and the clothing. Other parts of the clothing decayed in the sun.

7 Q. Regarding the identification that you mentioned, first of all the

8 identification of Murat Crneta, you said he was identified by his

9 father-in-law, didn't you?

10 A. Yes, I believe it was his father-in-law. I must say, I wasn't

11 present at the identification. It took place about four or five days

12 after the exhumation, which is the time it took to contact the families,

13 the families whom we believed could be interested. And there was a panel

14 consisting of the investigative judge, forensic expert, coroner, et

15 cetera. The identification was conducted in Gorazde, and I had already

16 returned to our headquarters in Sarajevo.

17 Q. I'm asking this because with regard to the identification report

18 for this particular corpse, the Defence does not understand some things.

19 It says in this report that Mr. Avdo Haric identified the body of Murat

20 Crneta based on a dark blue shirt, green hunting trousers, white sneakers

21 size 42, and a woolen sweater, woolen cardigan. However, the forensic

22 examination report, number 180/ --

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the number.

24 Q. Dated 6th November, 1997, the size of the sneakers is indicated as

25 43, not 42 as indicated in the identification report. Also, in the onsite

Page 4358

1 investigation report, number 25/97, dated 5th November 1997, it says,

2 long-sleeved shirt with a dark blue collar, rather than a dark blue

3 shirt.

4 And at the end of this same report about onsite investigation, it

5 says a round-neck sweater, not cardigan.

6 Can you explain these discrepancies, if you know anything about

7 this?

8 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, just in relation to the English

9 translation of the identification by Avdo Haric, the translation that we

10 have, and Your Honour has, is a woolen button-through jumper rather than a

11 cardigan. That's the English version. Maybe the B/C/S in fact says

12 cardigan, but we have jumper, which is consistent with a pullover.

13 JUDGE HUNT: As a matter of English that is so, Mr. Vasic. May I

14 ask you whilst we've interrupted this - I was waiting for the witness to

15 give the answer - the interpreter did not hear the number of the forensic

16 examination report. Would you be able to give us whatever number it was?

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The number I have is 180/97. That is

18 the book of onsite investigations of this authority, dated the 6th of

19 November, 1997.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. But what is the nature of this

21 overgarment, I suppose, to use a neutral term, that you were intending to

22 refer to?

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Murat Crneta was

24 recognised according to four garments that are mentioned here in the

25 record.

Page 4359












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Page 4360

1 JUDGE HUNT: We're only interested in one of them, and that is one

2 either -- described as either a cardigan, a jumper, or a sweater.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] In the identification report made by

4 the cantonal court in Gorazde, it is a sweater, no collar, with a round

5 neck. So it's a jumper that goes all the way up to the neck. And in the

6 identification report, Murat Crneta was recognised on the basis of a

7 woolen sweater with buttons on it. So it's not the same garment. That's

8 what the Defence believes.

9 A. Your Honour, I think I can answer the Defence counsel's question,

10 but I have to mention a proviso. I was not there, I was not present, but

11 perhaps I will assist you in understanding this matter.

12 The court makes a report on site during the exhumation itself. I

13 said that we were walking along a forest path for about 50 metres near a

14 dried up brook, and that we found garments in sand and mud. Garments that

15 had been there for five years. Therefore, they had lost all shape, their

16 original colour, et cetera.

17 The police, which subsequently does its own criminal expertise,

18 has the task of establishing exactly what kind of garments are concerned,

19 what type of cloth, what type of sweaters, trousers, what colour, et

20 cetera. Most garments, if they are exposed to the sun, snow, rain, et

21 cetera, for a certain amount of time, change their quality and colour.

22 So if in this specific case there is a lack of correspondence

23 between these two garments, then the explanation is due to what I have

24 just said to you.

25 JUDGE HUNT: It's a matter for you Mr. Vasic. I really don't know

Page 4361

1 if we're going to get very far on minor discrepancies like this. I am not

2 any expert in clothing, at least my wife seems to think so; but I can

3 quite easily envisage a jumper with a round neck and buttons. But anyway,

4 do you think we could get on to something more substantial? Clothing

5 that's left out in the rain and the sun and snow for months and sometimes

6 years is hardly a very good indication if we are going to get these sorts

7 of distinctions.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I quite agree with you.

9 My question is, how could the victim's father-in-law, who is not his next

10 of kin, recognise the victim on the basis of such a garment? That was my

11 question. But I shall move on to other questions.

12 Q. As far as the other victim is concerned, Halid Konjo, he was

13 recognised by his wife, according to the report, on the basis of his Seiko

14 watch, a yellow-gold wedding band, and also it says here on the basis of

15 four gold teeth in his upper jaw, and also something between the gold

16 teeth as well.

17 JUDGE HUNT: And a woven belt as I recall.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, yes. A brown belt,

19 knitted.

20 Q. Again, the Defence wanted to see whether this report matched the

21 forensic report. What was mentioned there was that a black belt was

22 found, not a brown one. Also, the same was mentioned in the forensic

23 report of the expert's team of the university clinical centre in Tuzla.

24 In addition to that, in this forensic expertise, another thing is

25 mentioned in the dental status. During the post-mortem, a bridge was

Page 4362

1 found in position 16 to 25, that is to say, more than four teeth.

2 Can you help us clarify these discrepancies related to Halid

3 Konjo?

4 A. I am not a dentist, but I'll try. It's quite obvious what this is

5 all about. A bridge goes for -- is longer than the number of teeth that

6 it includes. I was not engaged in this post-mortem. I'm not qualified

7 for that. I don't know what 16 and 25 means, actually. I mean, forensics

8 experts would have to be asked about this after all.

9 What is obvious is that there were only four gold teeth; however,

10 the bridge that holds these teeth spans a bigger part of the mouth than

11 that where only four teeth are.

12 Q. In the expertise, these four gold teeth are not mentioned.

13 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would just ask that my friend indicate

14 the document that he's referring to.

15 JUDGE HUNT: That would be helpful, I think, Mr. Vasic.

16 If I may say so, you left one matter up in the air, and that is

17 when you asked how this man's father-in-law could have identified him on

18 the basis of the few things you said, referred to. Nobody could suggest

19 that each of these particular items was by itself sufficient to identify

20 anyone. The basis upon which an identification would be made, I suggest

21 to you, would be the fact that each of them existed together, rather like

22 the definition of circumstantial evidence. You have a number of very thin

23 strands which, when woven together, become a very strong piece of rope.

24 It's no good taking each particular incident and saying, well,

25 this belt was described as brown by one person and black by another.

Page 4363

1 That's easily explicable by the fact that it had been left out in the

2 elements for a very long time. Anything that's left out could quite well

3 end up brown, and people may identify it in different ways.

4 I really don't know whether this very minor detail that you're

5 going into is giving us any assistance. If there's something really

6 substantial, you go for it, but I think we're going to spend an awfully

7 long time dealing with these minor matters, and in the end get nowhere.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was just thinking

9 about what people were shown during this identification process because

10 this does not correspond with what the original report said, so I was just

11 wondering what these people were actually shown subsequently. But I shall

12 not proceed with this line of questioning any further. Thank you.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, I don't want you to stop if you've got

14 something worthwhile going on with. You had not made it clear, at least

15 not to me, that that was what you were after. You seem to be simply

16 drawing attention to minor discrepancies in the descriptions.

17 If you want to know what these persons who identified the people

18 were actually shown, by all means, that's a very valid line of

19 cross-examination. Don't stop. All I want to do is get forward and not

20 dwell on minor inconsistencies.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Sir, yesterday in response to my learned friend's question you

23 talked about the site of Mazoce, and you said that a woman, a relative of

24 one of the victims, drew your attention to the fact that all the houses of

25 the persons who moved out were burned, whereas the houses of those who

Page 4364

1 were found on that site were burned down.

2 Can you tell us how many houses there are in the village of

3 Mazoce?

4 A. Yes. This is what the daughter of one of the killed persons told

5 me. I cannot remember precisely. What could be seen in that area was

6 about 20 houses that are not concentrated in the same place. They are

7 scattered about throughout the village, that is to say, in an area that I

8 think would be about one kilometre by one kilometre, perhaps even less.

9 This is mountainous terrain towards Montenegro, so houses are

10 scattered around the hills, and they can be noticed from a particular

11 site. Specifically from this site near the Orthodox Serb cemetery, one

12 can notice that there are at least 20 houses that belong to the village of

13 Mazoce.

14 Q. You mentioned the site of the Serb cemetery. Was Mazoce a mixed

15 village, or was it a purely Serb village or a purely Muslim village?

16 A. It was a mixed village for sure because precisely while we were

17 working on the exhumation, one of the local Bosnian Serbs came up to

18 us who is certainly older than 65. And when this victim's daughter asked

19 what happened -- I think she even used his name, and I can't remember the

20 name now. She asked him what had happened, and this was his answer,

21 approximately: "Some kind of soldiers came in. I really don't know

22 anything about this." I don't know how accurately this can be

23 interpreted, but this is the language that was used by the local Serbs in

24 that area.

25 So that was his area, that was his answer: "Lots of soldiers,

Page 4365

1 some kind of soldiers came in, and I don't know anything else." That was

2 the end of their conversation, and I went with that lady towards our

3 vehicle, and there was no further dialogue between them.

4 Q. Did you check what this lady said, that only some houses were

5 burned and others were not?

6 A. No, no, absolutely not. We are interested in persons, people,

7 missing persons, not in who committed crimes, who torched houses. The

8 commission that I head does not deal in such matters.

9 Q. I have one more question for you related to this exhumation of

10 Murat Crneta and Halid Konjo. How far away is that site from the front

11 line that was there in 1992? Do you know?

12 A. I'm not sure. I really am not. During the war I was not in that

13 area, so I cannot give you a precise answer how far away this is from the

14 confrontation line.

15 Q. Yesterday in response to my learned friend's question, you said

16 that in 90 per cent of all cases there were mass liquidations of Muslims

17 in this area. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes. When the Serb forces would enter villages, all of those who

19 were in the villages were liquidated, or a vast majority of them. Very

20 seldom did it happen that anyone would survive these mass executions.

21 Q. What do you mean by "mass execution"?

22 A. In the narrowest sense of the word, it meant that the villagers

23 from a particular village or hamlet were assembled together at a

24 particular place and then executed there by automatic weapons. And if we

25 give a more extensive interpretation, then it involves the search of

Page 4366

1 houses, barns, and other facilities in that village, and all those who are

2 found hiding in these buildings are executed on the spot.

3 So in one village, for example, in Jelec, if you take a look at

4 this map that we made for this trial, you will see that in a relatively

5 small area in a certain number of villages, a rather large number of

6 people were liquidated.

7 Q. If we look at annex 2 of the report P240/1, I can note that in

8 only 19 out of 156 sites mentioned, more than five victims were found in

9 one place. Is that 90 per cent?

10 A. I assume that the figure you mentioned is correct; however, I

11 repeat once again, mass executions mean the liquidation of people in their

12 houses, at their homes, at the same time. At the moment when soldiers

13 enter a village, they liquidate the entire population they find there.

14 If you look at the first group -- or rather, the second group

15 where at 53 sites, 161 victims were found, what do you notice? The site

16 of the village of Paunci, that's the second group, number one, two, three,

17 four, five, six. And then you can see that at the weekend cottage of

18 Hasan Balic, three victims were killed. At Karabegovic, Alivada [phoen],

19 one person was killed. At the Karabegovic house that is in that same

20 meadow, one victim was found. Then in Jusufovic Salko's house, in the

21 immediate vicinity three victims were found. In Frasto Adila's barn, one

22 victim was killed, et cetera, et cetera

23 JUDGE HUNT: Slow down please. Please slow down.

24 A. I mentioned a few different types of buildings and sites within a

25 small circle, houses that are close to one another, a barn, a meadow, et

Page 4367

1 cetera, that is why I talked about mass executions.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. However, this would not fit into your narrower interpretation,

4 that they were assembled at one point?

5 A. You're right. In this case, there are no cases of this nature

6 that have been registered, that in a narrower site we found 50, 60, to 100

7 victims as was the case in other places in Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially

8 in Bosanska Krajina and Eastern Herzegovina.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. However, I have to state that in the barn in Ratine, according to

11 eyewitness statements, 24 persons were executed. And also nine persons in

12 the village of Mazoce that we spoke of a few minutes ago, and I was

13 present at that exhumation. And then seven persons in the village of

14 Previla, and these are indeed mass executions with five or more victims

15 involved.

16 Q. You mentioned the village of Previla now. Is this village now in

17 the Croat Muslim federation?

18 A. I don't understand what you mean by the Croat Muslim federation.

19 Q. Is Previla within the Republika Srpska or the Croat Muslim

20 federation now, the village of Previla?

21 A. I don't know what the Muslim Croat federation is.

22 Q. That part of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina that is not

23 Republika Srpska.

24 A. Ah, you mean the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. Yes, I apologise; the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 4368

1 A. I'm not sure, but I think Previla right now is in the area of the

2 federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I cannot maintain that with 100 per

3 cent certainty, but I think that it is in the area of the federation.

4 Q. In response to my learned friend's question today, you spoke about

5 a list of 413 persons -- 430 persons that are mentioned as dead by

6 witnesses. Were these bodies exhumed?

7 A. No. Not a single one of these 413 - four one three - persons was

8 not exhumed.

9 Q. Are these persons registered as missing in your documents?

10 A. In the broader sense of the word, they are missing. Actually de

11 jure, they are considered to be missing because the fact of their death

12 has never been established either by a court or by forensics experts, that

13 is to say doctors who are authorised to establish someone's death,

14 coroners. They are missing; de facto, they could be considered different

15 in that respect from those 730 persons as compared to these 413 persons

16 for which witnesses claim that they are dead, that they have been killed.

17 Q. Can you tell me, according to the law of Bosnia-Herzegovina, what

18 is the period of time that has to elapse after the end of a war in order

19 to proclaim a person dead after he or she had been missing for a certain

20 period of time? Are you aware of any such period?

21 A. The local laws of the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina have left

22 every family member the right to determine that point in time when that

23 person's relative was considered to be dead. There is a Court procedure

24 involved, meaning that certain persons have to prove in civil proceedings

25 that their relative is deceased. I don't know exactly what the

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1 requirements are, but I think they have to bring witnesses to court who

2 were present during that person's death, or to point out circumstances

3 that unequivocally show that the mentioned person had died.

4 Q. Thank you, sir.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid that it's --

6 JUDGE HUNT: That's probably a good time for the break. I can

7 tell you that in the Australia the period after which there is a

8 presumption of death is seven years, but I don't know if that applies in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 We'll resume tomorrow at 9.30.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of

13 March, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.













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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.