Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4475

1 Monday, 26 March 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Before we proceed today, the order which we made in

10 relation to FWS-137 who was to be heard by videolink included an order

11 that for technical reasons he had to be heard in a closed Court. We have

12 rescinded the order that he be heard by way of videolink, and we must now

13 also rescind the order that he be heard in a closed court. He will have

14 facial distortion and all the usual things, but it will be in open court.

15 Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you're examining the witness, thank

16 you.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, good morning, Your Honours.

18 WITNESS: FWS-249 [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

21 Q. Good morning, witness.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't hear the Witness.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Did you say something at this time, sir? Did you

24 respond to that answer?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: At least in his language I heard something,

Page 4476

1 yes.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, we've got a technical problem, then.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it's all right. It's all right, thank

4 you.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. Very well, we can proceed.


7 Q. Witness, before the break you had told us already that about 40 to

8 50 days after your arrival in the KP Dom, a first so-called exchange took

9 place, and you mentioned that you saw Pero Elez in the KP Dom.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher -- oh, he's gone.

11 With the help of my assistant, I will put a photo to you, and it's the

12 Exhibit 18, photo 7477.

13 Q. Witness, can you point out --

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It seems that the monitor is not working.

15 JUDGE HUNT: This courtroom is sent to try us, rather than the

16 accused, I'm afraid. Just turn it on, would you? See if there's a button

17 that turns it on.

18 THE USHER: It's not from here, it should be from the booth.

19 JUDGE HUNT: If somebody in the booth could turn on the ELMO,

20 please.

21 [Technical difficulty]


23 JUDGE HUNT: It's coming through on what is being broadcast

24 but it is not coming through on the ELMO. The ELMO has a sign which

25 rather misleadingly says that we are in closed session, or it may be we're

Page 4477

1 in recess, but it's certainly wrong.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I can proceed without the photo.

3 JUDGE HUNT: I think it might be advisable.


5 JUDGE HUNT: It may be all day before we get some help here.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, yes, okay.

7 Q. Witness, where did you see Pero Elez in the compound?

8 A. Through the metal door which led to the entrance of the KP Dom.

9 That's, that's the area where I saw him before -- after that entrance.

10 Q. Did you see him in front of the metal door in the yard, or did you

11 see him standing in the door where?

12 A. Just before that door, inside the courtyard of the KP Dom.

13 Q. Was he accompanied by prison staff; do you recall?

14 A. Well, he was accompanied by some of his own soldiers and maybe

15 there was a guard in his entourage

16 Q. Did you know Pero Elez from before the war, or did you get to know

17 him?

18 A. Yes, I knew him well. He comes from Budanj. He lived in Foca.

19 He used to work in the KP Dom before the war, and he was retired as a

20 member of the staff of the KP Dom.

21 Q. Did he take the detainees with him through this metal door?

22 A. Yes. I cannot remember exactly how many people were called out.

23 I can remember three persons, Kemal Niksic, Salko Sljivo, and Dzamal

24 Niksic. They were in that group, but there were other men as well.

25 Q. What was said why the detainees were taken? Did you get any

Page 4478

1 explanation why they had to follow Pero Elez?

2 A. Later, stories did the rounds alleging that Pero Elez was supposed

3 to take a group of people to the mine to enable the mine to start

4 operating again.

5 Q. Who said that? Detainees or guards or both?

6 A. Those prisoners could not tell those stories because they had no

7 contact with me, but sometimes stories like that would leak from the

8 guards themselves.

9 Q. Was the mine operational at that time; do you know that?

10 A. I don't know whether it was operational, but I know that it was

11 only after a while that a group from the KP Dom was sent to work in the

12 mine. I don't think the mine was operational at the start. They were

13 trying to activate the open pit of that mine in the beginning, and that

14 was approximately at the end of 1992, in the beginning of 1993.

15 Q. When you went to Miljevina to work and prepare machinery in

16 the mine, did you see any of these men, these detainees who had been taken

17 on that occasion?

18 A. No, I never saw a single person.

19 Q. Did any of them return to the KP Dom?

20 A. Nobody ever came back.

21 Q. You have mentioned these particular three persons. Did you ever

22 hear of them again from their relatives or from whatever source?

23 A. There is no trace of these persons. They were never heard of

24 again.

25 Q. Did you ever observe detainees being taken for an exchange while

Page 4479

1 you were working in the metalwork shop?

2 A. There were exchanges, but when we would come back, for instance,

3 for this -- from this forced labour, and some people who never left their

4 rooms would tell us a group had been taken out there and there. But we

5 didn't actually know it was for an exchange, and we looked from our

6 windows at a vehicle parked just outside the KP Dom. It was a military

7 vehicle like a truck, a covered truck, and after a while this vehicle

8 would set off towards the town. Sevko Kubat and I would watch this from

9 our metal shop.

10 And after the vehicle set off, we noticed a vehicle which had been

11 parked all the time on the other bank of the Drina. That vehicle was full

12 of soldiers, and that vehicle would also be started and follow the other

13 vehicle. And after the working hours when we left the workshop, the --

14 our colleagues would tell us that it was an exchange which had taken

15 place. Of course, we didn't know the details. We didn't know where --

16 which people had been taken out and where, but there was no trace of these

17 people again. Nobody ever heard of them again.

18 Q. When did this happen that you saw the trucks? Do you recall the

19 month, maybe?

20 A. I cannot really remember well because it was a long time ago, but

21 it may have been in 1993, March, April perhaps. I cannot tell you the

22 exact date or month, but it was in 1993.

23 Q. You said that you could see, you and your colleague Sevko

24 Kubat, could see. How could you see? How could you look over the wall of

25 the -- that surrounded the metal shop?

Page 4480

1 A. This mechanical section of the metalwork shop, metalwork shop was

2 slightly elevated relative to the metalwork shop itself, and we could see

3 well the entrance to the KP Dom.

4 Q. Unfortunately we cannot use the ELMO now, but the part of the

5 metalwork shop where you worked, is it more to the -- is it further away

6 from the gate or is it the closest part of the metalwork shop?

7 A. That's the end of the metalwork shop, nearer to the gate. The

8 mechanical shop is the last section of the metalwork shop.

9 Q. The mechanical shop, is that where you were?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. You said that you saw trucks. The first truck, where was it

12 when you saw it and noticed it for the first time?

13 A. It was right at the entrance to the KP Dom, a covered truck. It

14 was right next to the wall.

15 Q. Did you see detainees board this truck? Could you see that from

16 your position?

17 A. No, we couldn't see because it was a covered vehicle. It had a

18 roof.

19 Q. Did other detainees work in the metalwork shop closer to the gate

20 so that they could see better than you?

21 A. I don't know whether they could see, but in any case, they were

22 much closer than we were in the mechanical shop.

23 Q. Were ever members of the metalwork shop taken away for exchange?

24 A. Yes. There was one time, one afternoon when we had returned from

25 the metalwork shop. We went straight to lunch, and after lunch we were

Page 4481

1 locked up in that working room. And after a while, a guard came, I don't

2 remember which one, but I think it was Zoran Vukovic, and he called out a

3 number of persons who were in the metalwork shop in that afternoon, and an

4 exchange took place.

5 Q. And when? Can you say when this happened? Was it in 1992 or

6 1993? Could you remember the month?

7 A. I think it was 1992. I'm not sure which month. It could have

8 been August or September, approximately. I'm not sure.

9 Q. How many members of the work group were taken away on this

10 occasion?

11 A. I don't know exactly how many persons. I can mention Suad

12 Islambasic, Karasi, Uzeir Hadzialic. I can't remember any other men at

13 this moment, but there were more of them. Smajo Dzevdas and so on.

14 Q. Could you see who took them away? Were they soldiers, or

15 could you simply see the guards taking them out?

16 A. The person who came and called out their names was, I think, Zoran

17 Vukovic. There were two Zoran Vukovics inside the compound, actually, but

18 I mean Zoran Vukovic from Josanica, the dark-haired guard. He came and

19 called out those people.

20 Q. How did Mr. Goljanin react to this fact that some of his workers

21 were taken away for an exchange?

22 A. The next morning when we were about to taken to the metalwork

23 shop, somebody from the compound would normally come to take people to

24 work, to cut grass, to the forest, or to the farm or wherever. One guard

25 would take one group. That morning Relja Goljanin came to pick us up,

Page 4482

1 and he was surprised to see how few of us were left, and he asked, "Where

2 are the others?" And we told him the story. We told him about the

3 exchange which took place the previous afternoon, and we explained.

4 Q. Did he react in any way? Did he say something or did he do

5 something after that?

6 A. At that moment he didn't say anything. He only took us to the

7 metalwork shop, but Relja Goljanin reappeared after a while with Savo

8 Todovic, and as I said, we were at the end of the metalwork shop. They

9 were going from one section to another with a piece of paper; we didn't

10 know what it was until he reached us. When he came up to us, he asked us

11 about our names, dates of birth, and other details, and they took them

12 down. So they took our personal details at that time.

13 Q. You said "they took the details down." On what? In a book or on

14 a piece of paper, or what was it?

15 A. They wrote these things on a piece of paper and they took it

16 away.

17 Q. Was any other worker of the work group taken away after this one

18 incident?

19 A. I think so. I'm not sure. I don't know if that group included

20 Ramiz Maljanovic and the person, if I can use a piece of paper, there are

21 other people.

22 I think Ramiz Maljanovic was taken away, and Rasim Taranin as

23 well, but I'm not sure whether they had been in the metalwork shop at that

24 time. And the people who remained, remained there until our exchange in

25 the end of 1994.

Page 4483

1 Q. Q. Sir, you have this sheet of paper in front of you that we had

2 actually started with. There is this group of people with the same last

3 name, and you told us these were some relatives of you, and I do not want

4 you to mention the names. What happened -- what became of these people?

5 Did they survive the KP Dom?

6 A. Out of those people, no one survived the KP Dom, and they had been

7 taken away for various exchanges.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, we've been informed by the video

9 booth that the ELMO is now working, for which we're very grateful.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour, but we have concluded

11 this description of the exchange, and I think he has made clear where he

12 was.

13 Q. When you testified in the previous case, you mentioned that

14 you were arrested together with another father and a son. When you

15 described your arrest, you said on a previous occasion, in another trial,

16 that you were arrested, you and 77 -- [redacted] were arrested, and

17 [redacted] father and son. What happened to this [redacted] father and

18 son? Did they survive the KP Dom?

19 A. No, they didn't. And before, before that, another of his sons had

20 been brought in which means that this father and his two sons did not

21 survive the KP Dom.

22 Q. What happened to them? Were they also taken away in a so-called

23 exchange, or what?

24 A. They were all taken for an exchange. We were actually looking

25 forward to those exchanges, thinking that one day our turn would come.

Page 4484

1 However, there were very few actual exchanges, real exchanges. In most

2 cases, they were fatal.

3 Q. Witness, in your previous testimony you have already described the

4 beatings in the KP Dom, and I do not want to repeat all this evidence

5 here. The question that I have is, did any persons return to your room

6 with obvious signs of beatings? Do you recall anybody?

7 A. Before the setting up of the work platoon, I was in Room 16. Two

8 people were taken away from that room. One Mandzo, I don't know his first

9 name, but he was a nurse, I believe; and a man from Josanica whose name I

10 don't really know. He was called Kalabic. They were taken for an

11 interrogation, and when they came back, they had obvious signs of

12 beatings. And this young man, Mandzo in particular, who was a nurse, he

13 carried his shoes in his hands, and he barely made it across the yard.

14 One of his fingers, I don't know on which hand, was broken. And this

15 other man, Kalabic, was badly beaten in his chest and his back, and there

16 was something like a crack on his neck. And they were in the

17 same room as Dr. Amir Berberkic who tried to give them some basic

18 assistance, and he stitched up the laceration on Kalabic's neck. And they

19 used thread to fix the broken finger of the other man.

20 Kalabic had returned from a solitary confinement cell badly beaten

21 up, and at the end of his tether. Also in my room there was Zaim Cedic

22 who was badly beaten up. He was there when I got there. And those are

23 the people I remember from that room.

24 Q. At what time were this Mandzo and this Kalabic, at what time were

25 they taken out, during the evening or during the daytime, for this

Page 4485












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4486

1 interrogation that you mentioned?

2 A. No. That was in the middle of the day, and we could see them both

3 being taken out and being brought back.

4 Q. In between this period when you saw them being taken and when

5 they were returned, did you hear anything?

6 A. As soon as those God damn metal doors would close, in most cases

7 we would hear screams, cries for help. Not always, but most of the time.

8 Q. In relation to this Mandzo and Kalabic, did you hear these

9 cries?

10 A. No. We didn't see them screaming because they must have been

11 taken to the administrative building where they were interrogated. We

12 could only see them coming back. We could see the state they were in.

13 Q. My question was actually, did you hear them scream, not that you

14 saw them, what happened to them. Did you hear them scream?

15 A. No, I didn't. I said that already. I couldn't hear any sounds

16 related to the two of them, but I could only see them coming back, and I

17 told you I saw this Mandzo in a very bad state carrying his shoes.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the person Mandzo, the nurse,

19 the Prosecution believes that is number B-37; and Kalabic, that is a

20 person who other witnesses have mentioned, the real name is Hasan Dzano,

21 and it's B-18.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the person Zaim Cedic mentioned by the

24 Witness is B-11.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 4487

1 A. Dzano, Dzano, right. You put it nicely.


3 Q. Witness, you said you were detained until the 4th of October,

4 1994. What happened on this day? How were you taken away?

5 A. I think it was the 5th of October, 1994.

6 Q. Sorry, yes, the 5th. Sorry.

7 A. I was in Miljevina at that moment. I remember this well. It was

8 raining on that morning. I was supposed to work in Kute on a Ford

9 vehicle. They had got spare parts for the engine that I was supposed to

10 put together. Since the spare parts were not right, of course I could not

11 work on that day. Stevanovic nicknamed Sumar was with me. He was the

12 one who got these parts, and since they were no good, he returned them to

13 Miljevina.

14 As we arrived at the motel in Miljevina, I don't know who walked

15 up to us. They said they're looking for [redacted] at the KP Dom, and they

16 said that it was in connection with some kind of exchange. And then they

17 said "You wait here," they went to a different room, and then there

18 was a telephone call which I did not manage to hear. I heard that there

19 was a telephone conversation going on, but I couldn't hear what was being

20 said.

21 After that, he returned and said, "They're looking for you at the

22 KP Dom, and you have to get all your things." He went to see me off to

23 the police station. After I got out of the police station, after I got

24 into his vehicle, he said, "All of you are going to be exchanged."

25 Then we travelled to Foca.

Page 4488

1 Halfway, after Kute, a vehicle from the KP Dom caught up with us

2 with the new warden, Zoran Sekulovic in it, and yet another person; I

3 can't remember who that was. There were two people there. "They wanted

4 to leave you behind, so that's why I came to pick you up." And that's how

5 we all returned together to the KP Dom.

6 When I got back, everybody was dressed, everybody was ready. They

7 told me that my son was waiting for me in the room, and they told me to

8 get ready, and that's the way it was. When I got back, we all got

9 onto the bus, and of course, we set out for Sarajevo.

10 Q. After having reached Sarajevo, were you returned to Miljevina

11 again, all the detainees on the bus?

12 A. When we reached Sarajevo, Kula, when we were supposed to get out

13 and report with the Red Cross -- actually, in the meantime as we travelled

14 and passed Rogoj, by Rogoj we were overtaken by a police car that honked

15 its horn, and I realised that it was the commander from Miljevina because

16 I knew the vehicle and everything. They didn't stop us there. The

17 vehicle disappeared right in front of us. And then this person, Pedo,

18 reappeared at Kula itself with another man. I think it's Fundup. Also

19 this person had weapons. It was no longer a police Golf, it was a Lada

20 Niva this time.

21 Then they gave us orders that we all had to go back, and they said

22 things like, "Whoever had to get money for an exchange and whatever," so

23 then really we were taken back to Miljevina. Then he said on the way,

24 "Serb young people are getting killed, and money is being taken for these

25 exchanges. All of these people should be taken to Rogoj and executed."

Page 4489

1 That's the gist of what he said, you see.

2 Q. When you say "he," you mean this Pedo?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. How was this situation then solved in Miljevina? Who solved it?

5 A. Everybody went silent after that threat of his. We were all

6 worried, and we all wondered how things would end after what he said. As

7 we reached Rogoj, he was standing there on his own. The driver stopped

8 again. He threatened us. He said don't look here, otherwise I'm going to

9 tear off your heads with bursts of gunfire." So that's how this

10 conversation ended.

11 The driver ignited the engine, and then we went to Miljevina. The

12 vehicle was parked there, and we were joined by a soldier from Rogoj, I

13 think. And he escorted our bus to Miljevina. He was by the bus --

14 Q. Just a moment. We would not need all the details, the

15 question was --

16 A. Details?

17 Q. How was the situation solved? Who actually solved the situation

18 in Miljevina so that you could return and be exchanged?

19 A. Well, most probably after that, delegations came. I don't know

20 who was on this delegation from Foca itself, and a meeting was held at the

21 motel. So it was decided once again that we would be returned for an

22 exchange.

23 Q. On this occasion in Miljevina, did you see staff from the KP Dom?

24 Did they also -- were they also one of the delegations that you

25 mentioned?

Page 4490

1 A. Well, of course. On the first escort there were some people from

2 the KP Dom. I can't remember exactly. And also on the bus itself, there

3 were two persons from the city police, from the town police, two persons.

4 And also the vehicle from the KP Dom, I don't know who escorted this

5 vehicle, but as for down there, I don't know about all these authorities.

6 Probably military authorities from the KP Dom. I don't know who made up

7 this delegation. I mean, the delegation that engaged in these

8 negotiations and that passed a decision to have an exchange take place

9 again.

10 Q. Did you see Mr. Sekulovic on this occasion in Miljevina when there

11 were these negotiations?

12 A. I can't remember.

13 Q. Let's now talk about some persons from the staff of the KP Dom.

14 Who was the warden before the war?

15 A. I think it was Radojica Tesovic. I think, but I'm not sure, but I

16 think it was Radojica Tesovic.

17 Q. Did you see Mr. Tesovic in the KP Dom during your confinement?

18 A. Towards the end of our exchange, once or twice I may have seen

19 Mr. Tesovic at the farm; however, throughout that period at the KP Dom, I

20 hardly ever saw him.

21 Q. You have already described that you saw Mr. Krnojelac driving in

22 the warden's car. Did you know him from before the war?

23 A. Yes, yes, very often. Not far away from my apartment where I

24 lived was the elementary school where Mr. Krnojelac was a teacher at

25 Gornji Polje.

Page 4491

1 Q. Did you know where he lived before the war?

2 A. I don't know the exact address.

3 Q. Did you hear that his house was destroyed or did you even see that

4 his house was destroyed during the war?

5 A. I heard that, and rumour had it that it was practically at the

6 very outset, perhaps even among the first houses. I did not see this, but

7 I heard about it.

8 Q. Where did he live during the war, do you know that?

9 A. During the war? People talked, or rather, after I was exchanged

10 my wife told me that he lived in Dr. Ismet Sosevic's apartment.

11 Q. Dr. Ismet Sosevic, is that a Muslim?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You said your wife told you that he lived in Dr. Sosevic's

14 apartment. When did she tell you that and how did she know that?

15 A. Well, she told me about that only after my exchange, or rather,

16 our exchange. And she knew through her neighbours because, after all, she

17 did stay there for a long time. I think she stayed in Foca until

18 September 1992. September, October, I'm not sure. I'm not sure about the

19 exact date when she got out.

20 Q. How did you learn about the fact that Mr. Krnojelac was living

21 in this doctor's apartment? Did she approach him there?

22 JUDGE HUNT: Did you -- do you have some information that this is

23 going to get us somewhere? Is it seems to me to be complete hearsay upon

24 hearsay and probably upon hearsay. If there's something in the statement

25 which suggests that there's going to be some probative value in this, you

Page 4492

1 proceed; but it seems to me we're just flogging a very dead horse on this

2 particular point.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think the witness will testify

4 that his wife tried to approach Mr. Krnojelac there to get her son

5 released.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, let's see what you can get from the witness

7 about that, but otherwise, it's of no probative value.


9 Q. Did your wife try to approach Mr. Krnojelac to get -- and if so,

10 why?

11 A. Well, in a way, she tried through her neighbours, her ethnic Serb

12 neighbours. At least, to set her son free. However, after the tragedy

13 that befell his sons and some other persons, these persons themselves said

14 that the time would not be right for that kind of a visit and that kind of

15 a request.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we leave it at that.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


19 Q. You said that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden. When did you learn

20 that and how?

21 A. Well, practically everybody -- practically all the guards

22 addressed Warden Krnojelac as warden, so on the basis of that information

23 and also by virtue of the fact that the car was brought for a repair, it

24 was said that the warden's car had to be checked, oil, water, batteries,

25 the tyres should be pumped up, et cetera. So through these orders we

Page 4493

1 realised that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden.

2 Also, when Mr. Zoran Sekulovic came, he said that he had replaced

3 the warden, that he was the new warden now.

4 Q. Did you actually speak with Mr. Krnojelac while you were detained

5 and while he was the warden?

6 A. No, never. As a matter of fact, I think that hardly any one of

7 the detainees talked to the warden. It was always indirect communication,

8 through someone, that is.

9 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac in the metalwork shop?

10 A. He would come, but he never addressed us directly. He would come

11 to Relja Goljanin's office and then he'd leave the metalwork shop again.

12 Q. Did you see him talk with Mr. Goljanin or the guards?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How did they behave towards Mr. Krnojelac? Was it a respectful

15 manner, was it -- in which way, when you saw that?

16 A. It's hard to explain that. These were conversations that boiled

17 down to issuing orders, things like that. I can't really give you the

18 gist of it.

19 Q. You said that it boiled down to issuing orders. Who was issuing

20 orders to whom?

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness said that he really

24 cannot say what they talked about, and now he's being asked to concretely

25 say who issued orders to who, but this was only his assumption. That's

Page 4494

1 what the witness said, that he only assumed that. And the witness said

2 that he did not know whether he was issuing -- whether orders were being

3 issued or whether they were reaching agreement on something that he did

4 not know about that. That would be a more accurate version of the

5 transcript. I didn't want to react at first.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Are you suggesting that the transcript is wrong,

7 because the transcript itself does not suggest that. It says, "These were

8 conversations that boiled down to issuing orders, things like that. I

9 can't really give you the gist of it." In other words, the terms of it.

10 I don't see that the question is improperly based. When it

11 says, "You said that it boiled down to issuing orders." That's exactly

12 what the witness said.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I did not

14 want to interrupt, but the transcript did not include everything he said.

15 Whether they were issuing orders or whether they were reaching agreement,

16 that I don't know. That is the first thing the witness said. And also,

17 he was not sure whether they were issuing orders or whether they were

18 discussing something like -- something different. And then the question

19 was a leading question, "Who was issuing orders to who?" The witness did

20 not say that specifically. My learned colleague then asked who was

21 issuing orders to who, and the witness did not say with any certainty that

22 orders were being issued to someone.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Bakrac, I think you and I will probably go

24 to our graves disagreeing about what a leading question is. If the

25 witness says, "That boiled down to issuing orders," then the Prosecution

Page 4495

1 is entitled to ask who issued the orders. That's not a leading question.

2 You proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


4 Q. Witness, you heard my last question: Who issued orders to whom?

5 A. Specifically, I can answer. I only know about my work. I could

6 never issue orders to my foreman or my boss. It is always my foreman or

7 my boss that issued orders to me.

8 Q. So you got orders from your foreman. Do you know who gave orders

9 to your foreman?

10 A. Yes, yes. Probably somebody that he was subordinated to.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I know we allow a certain

12 amount of hearsay, but this is getting into very dangerous ground to be

13 asking questions like that. How would he know? If I may suggest to you,

14 and this is perhaps an old common lawyer putting it this way, we should

15 first of all determine whether he can give us some direct evidence. He

16 heard somebody giving the order, to give these further orders on. Then it

17 would come in as direct evidence, or, at least, firsthand hearsay. But

18 you are inviting him to speculate, really, and the answer which he gave

19 clearly indicates that he is speculating.

20 Now, I realise this is an important part, but it's important also

21 to get it in properly.


23 Q. Let me formulate it this way: When you received your order from

24 Goljanin or the foreman that you mentioned, did they ever tell you who

25 ordered them to give you that particular task?

Page 4496












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4497

1 A. In a few cases -- this is the third time I'm telling you about the

2 vehicle. As for the other jobs, it was Goljanin who directly issued

3 orders, the person who was in charge of the metalwork shop. How can I

4 tell? In exceptional cases, these were very rare cases, that he would

5 say, "The warden said that you should prepare his car, that the oil should

6 be changed, that the car should be prepared for a journey," things like

7 that.

8 Q. When you saw Mr. Krnojelac, what was he wearing?

9 A. Mr. Krnojelac regularly wore an olive-green/gray uniform.

10 Q. You mean a military uniform?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Did he carry a weapon?

13 A. He never did, as far as bigger weapons are concerned. He only had

14 a pistol or something like that. At least, I never saw him with, say, a

15 rifle or an automatic rifle or something like that.

16 Q. Did you see the pistol on him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. At what times did you see him? Did you ever see him in the

19 evening or late afternoon?

20 A. Well, before I was taken to this metal group or metalwork shop,

21 that was perhaps 40 days, they regularly came to eat within the compound

22 because the dining room was for detainees, and there was a dining room for

23 the guards. But in between these two dining rooms, there was the

24 kitchen. So everybody came there for meals and that's when I would see

25 Warden Krnojelac most often within the compound. I could see him outside

Page 4498

1 on a few occasions as well as I was going to the metalwork shop and coming

2 back.

3 Q. Who was with him when you saw Mr. Krnojelac in the yard or outside

4 of the KP Dom?

5 A. That's a bit difficult. Well, with guards, of course, but then

6 it's hard to tell going from one person to another when which person was

7 with the warden because it's been quite a bit of time now.

8 Q. Did you see the warden with Mr. Rasevic and Mr. Todovic?

9 A. He would be in their company.

10 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac in the company of military personnel?

11 A. Well, once, I think. Again, I am going back to the time before I

12 was taken away. About a platoon of soldiers came in uniform with weapons,

13 and then we were terrified, too, we were wondering what would happen.

14 They had placed some mines on some of the green areas within the walls,

15 and I think that then he was in the compound, too.

16 Q. Does that mean he was -- he happened to be in the compound by

17 chance, or did he actually accompany these soldiers? When did you see him

18 with the soldiers?

19 A. I couldn't define that, whether that was by accident or whether he

20 actually entered because that group came. That is hard for me to answer.

21 Q. When you saw these soldiers in the compound, was Mr. Krnojelac

22 with them for quite some time, or did they just pass? Do you know that?

23 A. I cannot remember exactly how much time he spent there with them.

24 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Krnojelac with politicians, in the company of

25 politicians?

Page 4499

1 A. No. It happened, though, on one occasion, although I don't

2 remember who it was exactly, we were in the mess room having lunch. A

3 person came wearing civilian clothes with a moustache. It was a short

4 man. He said, "Enjoy your meal," and he introduced himself as the

5 Minister of Justice. I don't remember who was accompanying this person.

6 Q. Did you continue to see Mr. Krnojelac after he was replaced by

7 Mr. Sekulovic?

8 A. Very rarely. By chance. But I never saw him again within the

9 compound.

10 Q. Where did you see him? Did you see him near the KP Dom?

11 A. Yes. There is a restaurant right across which is part of the KP

12 Dom, and that's where I saw him once or twice after his replacement, at

13 the time when we were going to have this snack or coming back from it.

14 That is when I saw him.

15 Q. What was he wearing when you saw him on these two, one or two

16 occasions?

17 A. I think he was wearing civilian clothes then. I'm not sure. I

18 think he was wearing civilian clothes.

19 Q. Did he go into the restaurant, or what did you see him do?

20 A. I don't know. It's a very short time coming from the -- getting

21 out of the KP Dom and getting inside. I had no time to stop and watch

22 what he was doing. It's very difficult to answer this.

23 Q. Did any of the guards or the KP Dom staff tell you what

24 Mr. Krnojelac's new job was?

25 A. Not one, but several of them claimed that Mr. Krnojelac was

Page 4500

1 occupying a new position.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't really understand what

3 the witness said after the words "new position." What he said seems

4 improbable.


6 Q. Would you please repeat your answer. What did the guards tell you

7 what Mr. Krnojelac's new position was?

8 A. He -- they said he was working in the wrong police. I don't know

9 exactly what his position was.

10 Q. What do you mean by "wrong police"?

11 A. Oh, I meant the border police, not the wrong police.

12 Q. Who told you that? Which guard, do you recall?

13 A. Oh, it's difficult to say after nine years, really.

14 Q. Did the border police actually frequent the restaurant that you

15 just mentioned, the restaurant of the KP Dom? Did they actually go

16 there?

17 A. Allegedly they did. That is something I found out about from a

18 person who went there to clean. His name was Dudic. He told me they were

19 spending nights in that building of the restaurant.

20 Q. This person Dudic, is he -- what is it, Dudic? This person, was

21 he a detainee?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Savo Todovic, what was his exact function in the KP Dom?

24 A. Savo Todovic's job was to coordinate with the working group, and

25 we had the impression that he was the one selecting men for the working

Page 4501

1 group.

2 Q. Let me cite from a statement that you gave to the Prosecutor's

3 Office dated the 17th of November, 1995.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And for the interpreter, it's page 10,

5 paragraph 3 of this statement.

6 Q. In this statement, it is taken down as your words, "Although

7 Krnojelac was the director, it seemed that Todovic Savo was actually in

8 charge. I say this because he was directing who was going where and who

9 was doing what."

10 Can you explain this sentence? Is it how it was?

11 A. Yes. Well, I have already answered this partly in my previous

12 answer. In everything concerning work and work relations, Savo Todovic

13 was in charge. He decided who was going to work and whether he was going

14 to work at all. And at least, that was our opinion, because Krnojelac

15 never interfered with those things. He would never come and speak

16 directly to prisoners, whereas Savo Todovic did that.

17 And there was an undertone of threat in his voice when he spoke to

18 us. For instance, he would say, "How long do you intend to keep lying

19 about? It's time to go to work." And as far as work is concerned, I

20 think Savo Todovic was more important for us than Krnojelac, even, because

21 he would issue direct orders. He would very often have direct contact

22 with prisoners, and this sentence from my statement was in this context.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions of the

24 Prosecution.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Bakrac.

Page 4502

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will take the reverse

2 order, taking up the things that are freshest in the mind.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

4 Q. [Interpretation] I wish to introduce myself to the witness. I am

5 Mihajlo Bakrac, one of the Defence counsel of the accused Krnojelac and

6 since we have already had problems before with the interpreters and until

7 now you have waited to hear the interpretation of the questions asked by

8 my learned friend, we will now potentially encounter even greater problems

9 because you will have to wait for the interpretation so that everybody

10 understands us.

11 I will take the reverse order, as I said, and we'll come back to

12 the last question asked by my colleague.

13 My learned friend just mentioned to you the last statement you

14 gave in November, on the 17th of November, 1995, something you said about

15 the warden, Mr. Krnojelac, and Savo Todovic, and she asked you to explain

16 what you meant when you said that it seemed to you that it was actually

17 Savo Todovic who was in charge.

18 But it seems that my learned friend did not present to you another

19 statement that you gave on the 3rd of December, 1998, in which you spoke

20 exclusively and very thoroughly about the structure of administration of

21 the KP Dom as you saw it. I will read out to you a statement from that

22 second statement, and you will tell me whether you really stated that or

23 not.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That is page 3 of the B/C/S version,

25 paragraph 3.

Page 4503

1 Q. It seemed to me that Savo Todovic had a higher position than

2 Krnojelac, and he was in charge of the work obligations of prisoners."

3 Did you really state that it seemed to you that Savo Todovic held a higher

4 position than Krnojelac?

5 A. I can answer this specifically now. When I said that, I meant

6 direct dealings with the work platoon were handled by Savo Todovic, is

7 what I meant. Mr. Krnojelac didn't interfere with that. And who is

8 subordinate to whom is difficult to say. A warden can be -- can hold a

9 higher position than a clerk. It cannot be vice versa.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. What I'm interested in is, is it true that you

11 stated what I just read out to you, that it seemed to you that Todovic had

12 held a higher position than Krnojelac?

13 A. Yes, but precisely in the context which I just explained.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Please, please. You are both coming in too early,

15 both of you. Now, if I can speak to the witness first, do you have the

16 transcript coming up in front of you on the screen there? Do you have

17 typing there?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if you would wait until the question has

20 finished being typed out, then that is when you should answer it.

21 Mr. Bakrac, you know that you must wait, too. Please.

22 A. Okay.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Sir, did you know what the exact administration structure in the

25 KP Dom was? Did anybody present any papers to you about that, or did

Page 4504

1 anyone report to you what that structure was, or is this entirely your

2 observation?

3 A. Nobody ever presented to me an official report about the structure

4 of the KP Dom, but according to the conversations and stories told by the

5 guards who handled prisoners within the KP Dom and handled the working

6 group, we knew what the relations were among people, who was commander of

7 the guard, who was the warden. We knew all this, although nobody ever

8 officially explained it to us.

9 Q. Sir, you just said that this impression that Savo Todovic held a

10 higher position than Krnojelac, you explained where this impression came

11 from. Was it also based on the fact that without consulting anyone, Savo

12 Todovic meted out punishment in the compound for workers in the metalwork

13 shop? He said, "You'll get 15 days, you'll get 20." Isn't that so?

14 Wasn't his behaviour in such situations reason for you to get that

15 impression?

16 A. Yes. Specifically, I always speak about the working platoon

17 because that's what I know best. Savo Todovic was the one who designated

18 who will go to work where. And even when he meted out punishment, he did

19 so of his own accord without seeking anyone's approval because he was in

20 charge of workers and work relations. And he decided on those punishments

21 arbitrarily.

22 Q. You said the working group. Did Savo Todovic hold a speech to all

23 prisoners of the KP Dom, or only to the working group in the incident

24 described earlier?

25 A. At that time when -- because Ekrem Zekovic had escaped from the

Page 4505

1 metalwork shop, the people working the metalwork shop were taken out for

2 interrogation, which means that he was threatening people from the

3 metalwork shop. Not the entire work platoon because the work platoon also

4 included people who went to work in the mine, people who went out to cut

5 grass, people who went out to the forest, and so on and so forth.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, remember that we have a voice distortion

7 here. If you leave your microphone on, it cancels out the voice

8 distortion. I know it's going to be a nuisance, but it's the only way it

9 can be done.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try while

11 fighting time, interpreters, and so on, to take care of time as well.

12 Q. Sir, does that mean that within the compound of the KP Dom in the

13 courtyard when Ekrem Zekovic was caught, that Savo Todovic held his speech

14 and presented Ekrem Zekovic only to people from the metalwork shop, or all

15 the prisoners who were in the KP Dom?

16 A. I cannot speak about other rooms. I said in my previous statement

17 already that while we were in solitary cells, they went from room to room

18 and displayed Ekrem Zekovic. I don't know what these people were told. I

19 can only say what we from the metalwork shop were told when we were

20 taken out, what we were told about Ekrem Zekovic, and what he said to us

21 later.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. Please tell me, who was involved in the

23 interrogation of people on the occasion of the escape of Ekrem Zekovic?

24 A. After the escape of Ekrem Zekovic, we were taken out. I described

25 this in part already. The guards exchanged remarks and threatened us.

Page 4506

1 That started in the cell where I was and continued in the hallway and in

2 the solitary cells. People were taken out from solitary cells and

3 interrogated one by one. Who was involved in the interrogation of

4 individuals, I don't know.

5 Q. You just said, sir, that you heard from the guards who was who. I

6 will take you back to your statement of the 3rd December, 1998, where in

7 paragraph 4 at the beginning you say, "I know that Krnojelac was warden of

8 the KP Dom because that was common knowledge. Everybody knew that,

9 although Serbs did not exactly advertise that fact." What is correct,

10 were you not informed or did Serbs not advertise this fact?

11 A. I do not remember this statement.

12 Q. Would it refresh your memory if I presented it to you?

13 A. Can you read it out again?

14 JUDGE HUNT: Please, please. Just pause, both of you.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I will read it out to you again. "I know that Krnojelac was

17 warden of the KP Dom because that was common knowledge. Everybody knew

18 that, although Serbs did not actually advertise that fact."

19 A. I don't know in what meaning and whether I gave that statement. A

20 long time has passed. But if I did give that statement, I may have meant

21 that apart from the administration and people who went out to work, other

22 people could not have such information. And at the outset, I believe

23 there were rooms where people did not go out at all for months on end, for

24 a month or two months, even. We who worked could get some information

25 precisely from the guards.

Page 4507












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4508

1 Q. Sir, did Krnojelac ever come to the room where you were detained,

2 and did you ever see him in prisoners' quarters?

3 A. No. I'm sure that he didn't.

4 Q. Please wait a little for the interpretation.

5 Sir, when representatives of the Red Cross came, do you remember

6 that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell me who was with them? Who accompanied the

9 representatives of the Red Cross?

10 A. I don't remember exactly, but I remember there was Rasevic, there

11 was Sekulovic. There were more of them when the Red Cross just came.

12 Q. You say Sekulovic. Which Sekulovic?

13 A. I don't remember his name, but it was one of the guards. And I

14 believe the last one to leave the room left through the intervention of

15 the Red Cross, and he was the last to leave.

16 Q. Who was the last to leave?

17 A. I believe Sekulovic, Zoran.

18 Q. Who ordered the guards to put you in a solitary confinement cell

19 when Ekrem Zekovic escaped?

20 A. When Ekrem Zekovic escaped, nearly everyone gathered: the guards,

21 the commander of the guards, deputies of the commander, Savo Todovic. I

22 cannot really say who issued the order to put people in isolation cells.

23 Q. Sir, I will read out to you your statement dated 3rd December,

24 1998, page 4 of the B/C/S version, paragraph 2, sentence number 3: "We

25 who worked in the metalwork shop, the 14 or 15 of us, were taken there

Page 4509

1 first. Savo Todovic ordered us to be placed in that room."

2 A. Yes, he was present, but who issued the order, I don't know. And

3 in the hallway just outside the solitary confinement cell there was he

4 and there was Keli, the man nickname Keli. I don't know his last name.

5 We were lined up at the time, and Keli said to Spirjan, Sefik, "We used to

6 be schoolmates and we are nothing any more," and then he punched him in

7 the stomach. And we were later put into solitary cells. Who issued the

8 order, I don't know, because there were two men present, Savo Todovic and

9 Keli.

10 Q. In your statement which I just quoted, it says, "Savo Todovic

11 ordered us to be placed in that room."

12 A. Well, he was there, so it was probably him.

13 Q. Did you see Savo Todovic address the guards and issue orders to

14 them?

15 A. In which period?

16 Q. If you saw him addressing the guards and issuing orders, you tell

17 us in which period. I'm asking you, in the time when you were detained

18 down there, did you see Savo Todovic address the guards and issue orders

19 to them?

20 A. He specifically issued orders relating to work. Who made the

21 schedules, the rosters for people to go out with working groups, I don't

22 know.

23 Q. Did Savo Todovic invite you for an interview regarding the conduct

24 of some people in the work department?

25 A. He invited me one evening. A guard, I don't know which guard,

Page 4510

1 came and told me to go down to the reception area. There were several

2 persons there, and one of them was Savo Todovic. Of course, I said "Good

3 evening, and how are you," and he asked me a question. "How do you

4 deserve your cigarettes and your canned food? What did you do to get

5 them?" And I said --

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

7 A. And he said then, "Don't hold yourself above others. Don't think

8 that you have any privileges." How could I possibly think I had any

9 privileges when I was in the camp like everyone else? And that was my

10 conversation with Savo Todovic.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Just before you go on, the interpreters did not get

12 part of that answer. The question which had been asked -- which the

13 witness had asked, "How do you deserve your cigarettes and your canned

14 food? What did you do to get them," we need to know what the answer to

15 that question was that was given by Mr. Todovic.

16 Could you repeat that for us, please, sir? Not the whole of your

17 answer, but what did Todovic say to you when you asked him "How do you

18 deserve your cigarettes and your canned food? What did you do to get

19 them?"

20 A. He told me that, "With people who bring their cars to be repaired,

21 I specifically ask for tinned food and cigarettes in order to do the work

22 at all." He said, "I'm making my work conditional on getting those

23 things." And that's something I never did. It would have never occurred

24 to me to refuse to comply with an order, let alone set my own conditions.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 4511

1 It's now 11.00, I notice. We'll adjourn now until half past 11.

2 I'm grateful to see that the clock here is now to be right.

3 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.309 30 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Sir, just before the break you told us about a situation when

8 Mr. Todovic called you. You said that there were some other people

9 there. Can you remember how many and what they were wearing?

10 A. I cannot remember the number of persons involved exactly, and I

11 cannot remember these person's names. However, these were people in

12 uniforms, in KP Dom uniforms.

13 Q. Were they guards?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. However, you cannot remember which guards?

16 A. I cannot remember. Let me explain this to you a bit. When

17 somebody calls you in the evening, you get a bit scared, don't you?

18 You're at your wit's end, as a matter of fact.

19 Q. You say in the evening. What time was it approximately?

20 A. That was immediately after dinner. I don't know. It was dark.

21 It was well into the evening. I don't know exactly what time it was.

22 Q. Sir, you talked about the situation when Ekrem Zekovic escaped and

23 when Mr. Ivanovic came and said, "Why didn't you escape, too?" And that

24 you understood this to be a reprimand to the guards that everybody else

25 could have escaped because there were no guards around. Is that correct?

Page 4512

1 A. I don't know exactly who was accompanying Boro Ivanovic but they

2 passed by us because we were lined up at the very bottom of the metalwork

3 shop. They went towards the mechanical workshop. They went behind it.

4 What they said, I don't know; and what their assessment was, I don't know.

5 But when they passed by us, Boro Ivanovic said precisely those words that

6 I mentioned in my statement.

7 Q. In relation to this, did you also mention in your statement that

8 it seemed to you that Ivanovic outranked the guards and Rasovic?

9 A. Well, I don't know Boro Ivanovic's post exactly. People talked,

10 and some of these stories reached us, too. He was some kind of a security

11 man, at least, that's the information that reached us. How correct this

12 information is, I cannot say.

13 Q. Is it correct that in your statement you said that it seemed to

14 you that Mr. ...

15 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Bakrac's microphone was off. The

16 interpreter did not hear the question.

17 A. When they informed Boro Ivanovic that there had been an escape.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, your microphone was off and the

19 interpreters did not hear your question. Can you restate it for their

20 convenience, please.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour, and I do

22 apologise to you. My hand was faster, and I turned off the microphone

23 before I finished putting my question to the witness.

24 Q. I'm asking you, sir, whether it is correct when you spoke in your

25 statement about what Mr. Ivanovic was saying, that it seemed to you that

Page 4513

1 Ivanovic outranked the guards and Rasevic. Is that correct?

2 A. Well, since Boro Ivanovic had been informed about Ekrem Zekovic's

3 escape, that was our conclusion. We thought that he was above these other

4 persons.

5 Q. In terms of the statement that I've just quoted to you, you said

6 that you sometimes heard from the administration building screams and

7 moans. Can you tell us from which part of the administration building you

8 heard this?

9 A. Well, for the most part, the screams could be heard when the guard

10 would come with a list if his hands and call out persons from various

11 rooms. And then when these persons would be taken to the metal door,

12 practically as soon as the metal door would close, practically the screams

13 would follow immediately as soon as the metal door would close.

14 Q. As soon as the metal door would close?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Can I understand it this way, then, that the beatings took place

17 immediately in the hallway, right after the metal door?

18 A. I don't think that people would start screaming just like that

19 without any reason, which is not to say that they were not taken any

20 further; however, the screaming would start immediately after the metal

21 door in the case of certain persons.

22 Q. Did you hear screams from other parts of the administration

23 building, and where from?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, did your wife try to leave Foca

Page 4514

1 unsuccessfully for a while?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When did she finally manage to leave Foca?

4 A. I could not give you the exact date when my wife left. My

5 daughter left a bit earlier with the neighbours, and my wife thought that

6 this infamous KP Dom done would be resolved before it had actually

7 been resolved. She tried to wait for me and my son. However, when all

8 hope was lost, then it was August or September, October, approximately, I

9 can't tell you exactly what the date of her departure was.

10 Q. You said that she was waiting for the situation to get better, but

11 let us be quite precise. Just before she left Foca, did she try to leave

12 but did not succeed in doing so?

13 A. I already gave you an answer, that she did try.

14 Q. Do you know what Mr. Krnojelac's working hours were?

15 A. Well, I cannot say when Mr. Krnojelac came and left exactly, but

16 it was regular working hours, basically.

17 Q. You said, sir, that the border police slept in the restaurant

18 across the street from the KP Dom. How far away is the border from Foca,

19 from the KP Dom? Do you know that, the border with Montenegro?

20 A. I cannot tell you exactly how many kilometres away it is. It's

21 about 30 to 40 kilometres. I can't say exactly.

22 Q. You said that you heard that Mr. Krnojelac, after his house had

23 burned down, was staying at Dr. Sosevic's apartment?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was that apartment owned by Dr. Sosevic or the KP Dom at that time

Page 4515

1 in 1992?

2 A. I can't say exactly whose property it was.

3 Q. Did you own your apartment, or were you given that apartment by

4 your company, and were you allowed to use it in that way?

5 A. I had what was called a tenant's right to this apartment that was

6 owned by my company.

7 Q. That is precisely what I wanted to explain to the Trial Chamber.

8 This legal term that was used in Yugoslavia then when I say tenant's

9 right. Who was the actual owner of the apartment?

10 A. The actual owner was the [redacted]. However,

11 after a while, a person does obtain the tenant's right to a particular

12 apartment, and I had the tenant's right to my apartment.

13 Q. Is that to say that you had the right to use that apartment, but

14 you did not have the right to sell the apartment, to put the money in your

15 own pocket, et cetera?

16 A. At that time, people did not buy their apartments. That's why it

17 was a privilege to have this tenant's right. Whoever would obtain a

18 tenant's right would have the right to use this apartment in a way because

19 in that way, a person would in part in a way become sort of owner of the

20 apartment as well.

21 Q. You could exchange it, but could you sell it? Could you put the

22 money in your own pocket?

23 A. No.

24 Q. To the best of your knowledge, did Dr. Sosevic work in the KP Dom

25 before the war?

Page 4516

1 A. Whether he worked there? Yes, he did. Whether he worked there

2 all the time, I don't know, or whether he worked there only part time, I

3 can't say for sure.

4 Q. Do you know that after his house burnt down, Mr. Krnojelac spent a

5 large part of 1992 in a hotel, the Zelengora Hotel where other refugees

6 were?

7 A. I heard that there were refugees at the hotel. As for

8 Mr. Krnojelac, I did not know about him being at the hotel itself.

9 Q. You said today that once when a military truck took people out for

10 an exchange, that another military truck was on the other side of the

11 Drina. Can you tell us exactly where?

12 A. Not on the other side of the Drina. It was by the Drina River

13 bank, but it was on the same side where the KP Dom is. At the parking

14 lot.

15 Q. Can you tell us how high the metal door is, the one that leads to

16 the metalwork shop?

17 A. I don't know exactly. I think it's a standard metal door.

18 Q. Could you please be so kind as to explain to us what "standard"

19 means?

20 A. I mean standard doors. I don't know, like a door, like, like, the

21 door to this courtroom that we enter. Something like that. Of course,

22 they were wider so that vehicles could also enter the compound of the

23 metalwork shop itself.

24 Q. We had a witness here who worked at the metalwork shop who

25 said that he could see across that door when he would climb up onto a

Page 4517

1 kiosk. How could you see the area in front of the KP Dom from the

2 metalwork shop?

3 A. It's simple to explain that. The workshop itself, the locksmith's

4 workshop, the metalwork shop, the blacksmith's shop, the welder's shop,

5 all of that was at the entrance into the metalwork shop as such. However,

6 the mechanic's workshop is a bit further up, a bit higher in relation to

7 the metal door, so I was a bit higher up than those who were down there.

8 Q. You say a bit higher up. Since you are a mechanic, can you tell

9 us how high up this is, and how much higher were you in relation to the

10 other part of the shop?

11 A. It is hard to tell, but -- it is hard to tell, but probably the

12 difference in altitude could have been, say, a metre and a half or even

13 two metres.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. We took over your transcript from a different

15 case that was related to the same area, so I'm just going to put a few

16 questions to you in relation to that testimony. You talked about a period

17 that you also referred to here in your examination-in-chief just before

18 the war broke out, the 5th of April, the rally, et cetera. Did your son

19 do his military service in the Yugoslav People's Army?

20 A. Yes. My son did his military service in the army, and he was

21 precisely in the conflict with the Croats, and the Croat Serbs and the

22 army. He was at Petrova Gora. He was doing his military service there,

23 and his term was extended for a month, a month and a half, I'm not sure.

24 Q. Did you take him out of the Yugoslav People's Army earlier than

25 that?

Page 4518












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Page 4519

1 A. How could I get him out of the Yugoslav People's Army when his

2 term was extended?

3 Q. When did he leave the army?

4 A. I cannot tell you the exact date.

5 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you said to us, sir, that you

6 stood guard in Jelec a few times. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Which weapons did you have when you stood guard?

9 A. At that moment, I had my father's rifle. This was a hunting

10 rifle, a personal weapon.

11 Q. You say a hunting rifle. Can you give us a closer description?

12 Which ammunition was needed for this hunting rifle?

13 A. This was a hunting rifle, a two-barreled rifle, a 14-millimetre

14 rifle, a number 14 as it was called.

15 Q. Did ethnic Serbs also take part in the guards in Jelec?

16 A. Since Jelec is practically 98 or 99 per cent Muslim in terms of

17 its population, there are a few houses above Govza and a few above

18 Poljica. They did not take part in these guards, at least, we were not

19 aware of that.

20 Q. Do you know the name of Major Besevic, and who is that?

21 A. After I left Jelec, I'm not sure, it was the 29th or the 30th of

22 April. I think it would be the 30th rather than the 29th. Except for the

23 civilian population, the Muslim population which organised itself at its

24 own initiative with a few hunting rifles, a few automatic rifles, a few

25 M-48 rifles, there weren't any other weapons. And then this Besevic was

Page 4520

1 not in Jelec. After that, rumour had it that after I had left he had

2 stopped by in Jelec, that is.

3 Q. Since you told us here about the rumours you heard concerning

4 other stories, you say that he stopped by. What does that mean, that he

5 stopped in passing or that he came with soldiers to organise the defence?

6 Tell us, exactly what did you hear?

7 A. It was like he was in passing, sort of.

8 Q. There was a witness here who was from Jelec who said that he had

9 come with a certain number of soldiers, and that the people of Jelec

10 wanted to hand over their weapons; however, that he organised fighting.

11 A. That is what I learned after I left. What kind of agreement was

12 reached between Besevic and the population of Jelec, I really cannot talk

13 about these details.

14 Q. When you returned to Foca on the 30th, around the 30th of April,

15 until the 25th of May, was there a curfew that was on in Foca?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was this a curfew for all citizens?

18 A. I heard with my very own ears when a police vehicle with a loud

19 speaker went all around town, and when they were saying that Muslims were

20 prohibited from assembling in the street and moving about town, and that

21 they were supposed to stay in their own homes. I heard that with my very

22 own ears.

23 Q. Was there a curfew for all citizens in Foca in the evening hours?

24 A. I cannot know that because I did not leave my building.

25 Q. You said that you came from Jelec because your wife was ill. Did

Page 4521

1 you take her to see a doctor?

2 A. Yes. She had tonsillitis. She had a sore throat, and I had to

3 take my wife somewhere. The war in Sarajevo had already started. I had

4 to take my wife somewhere, Kalinovik, Miljevina, or Foca.

5 Q. May I just interrupt you, sir. I'm sorry. We don't want to use

6 up too much time. I'm just interested in what happened when you came back

7 to Foca. Please just don't talk at the same time when I talk. Let's not

8 speak at the same time.

9 So when you came in Foca, did you take her to the doctor after

10 that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. How did she get better, then?

13 A. A lady who is my next door neighbour, she lived at the apartment

14 to the right of my apartment. She brought some antibiotics and it is due

15 to these antibiotics that my wife got well.

16 Q. Is your next door neighbour a Muslim?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What is she by ethnicity?

19 A. I'm not sure whether she's a Hungarian or a Serb.

20 Q. What about her husband, what ethnicity is he?

21 A. A Serb.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. You said to us -- you talked to us in detail

23 about how you were taken to the KP Dom and who took you. You mentioned

24 that you knew three out of the four persons involved. Is it correct that

25 when you arrived in the KP Dom, one of the persons who brought you in said

Page 4522

1 to the guard to take you to Room 16?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So the person who arrested you, or, rather, who took you from your

4 apartment to the KP Dom said to the guard to which room to take you

5 exactly?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And were you taken to the room that this person said you should be

8 taken to?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This person who said to the guard which room you should be taken

11 to, what did this person wear?

12 A. Camouflage uniform.

13 Q. Military camouflage uniform?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. You said you were taken to room 16, then you

16 spent a short while in Room 18 before being taken to building number 1.

17 Can you remember when that was and on which floor you were?

18 A. That was all in 1992. I cannot remember the dates and months. We

19 spent a very long time precisely in that room in building number 1, and

20 that's the building from which we were taken to the exchange.

21 Q. You said in 1992, was it autumn, winter? Can you try to remember

22 the month?

23 A. It was August or September approximately. I'm not sure.

24 Q. If you can remember, what room was it? If not, then on which

25 floor?

Page 4523

1 A. Room 13.

2 Q. Could you please be so kind as to explain, you said, "We were

3 taken." Was the entire work platoon taken with you to Room 13?

4 A. When there were problems related to taking people to work, they

5 probably wanted to avoid taking people out from different rooms, so we

6 were all put into one room. We spent a very short while in Room 16, and

7 then we were all transferred to Room 13. There may have been exceptional

8 cases when somebody was taken out from a different room, but that happened

9 by chance.

10 Q. So from August or September, most of those who worked were in the

11 same room with you?

12 A. Yes. With a proviso that some people -- few of them, though, were

13 in different rooms, and were taken out as required.

14 Q. But beginning with August or September 1992, Room 13 was the

15 working room?

16 A. I said before yes, but approximately. I don't know how to put

17 it. I don't remember it that well.

18 Q. You said you started to work about a month or so after you were

19 brought to the KP Dom. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. When you were told that you were going to work, did you refuse?

22 Did you rebel? Did you express any disapproval?

23 A. I think that to rebel or to express disapproval would have been a

24 big risk. It didn't occur to me to refuse.

25 Q. You mentioned Dule or Dusan who worked in the metalwork shop. Do

Page 4524

1 you know by any chance when he started to work and for how long he worked

2 in the metal shop?

3 A. I think practically throughout, all the time.

4 Q. From time when you came until the moment when you left the KP

5 Dom?

6 A. I believe that is so.

7 Q. Were there any tinsmiths or welders in the metalwork shop?

8 A. There were various profiles of metal workers, from welders,

9 mechanics, locksmiths, and so forth.

10 Q. You told us yesterday that you did whatever was needed, that you

11 repaired vehicles, that you did all kinds of jobs related to servicing of

12 vehicles, changing oil, repairs. Is that correct?

13 A. It is completely correct, all of it.

14 Q. So, sir, you did all the repairs required on vehicles, but the

15 only thing you were defending -- you were defended to repair was the

16 exhaust pipe on the kedi vehicle?

17 A. Whether it was defended or they didn't have it, I don't know,

18 because there were other cases when repairs were required on other

19 vehicles but we couldn't do it because there were no spare parts.

20 Q. You are a mechanic. Do you mean to tell me that an exhaust pipe

21 with a hole in it cannot be repaired? You have a tinsmith and you have a

22 welder. Do you mean to say that you cannot just fix it?

23 A. Yes, it can be patched.

24 Q. But for this particular car, they did not tell you to patch the

25 exhaust pipe?

Page 4525

1 A. Many vehicles, speaking about proper technical working order, were

2 not up to snuff. They had various faults.

3 Q. Does that mean that there were other vehicles with faulty exhaust

4 pipes?

5 A. I'm not saying specifically that it was all cars, but there were

6 about -- there were some with faulty exhaust pipes which had holes in

7 them.

8 Q. I didn't understand what you said about 16.

9 A. Sixteen is a freight vehicle. Sixteen was a reference to its

10 tonnage and it was driven by Miso Krsmanovic.

11 Q. When you mean it was often driven, does it mean that this person

12 frequently took it out of the KP Dom and brought it back?

13 A. That was a vehicle which belonged to the KP Dom.

14 Q. And it also had a faulty exhaust pipe?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Sir, you told us yesterday that the fishpond in Jelec, as far as

17 you knew, was emptied. Are you aware that there is a fishpond at Bukovica

18 near Mjesaja?

19 A. I'm very aware of that

20 Q. Are you aware that part of the fish from Jelec were transferred to

21 Bukovica near Mjesaja?

22 A. I'm not aware of that.

23 Q. You said that one morning you noticed this kedi vehicle washed.

24 Can you remember when that was?

25 A. It's very difficult to remember that date because it's been a long

Page 4526

1 time, and I'm starting to forget even names and surnames and nicknames,

2 let alone remember exact dates.

3 Q. I would appreciate it, sir, if you could tell us to the best of

4 your memory, if not the date, then the month when you saw that vehicle.

5 A. Well, approximately about a month or two months after my arrival,

6 approximately within that time frame.

7 Q. You mean after your arrival?

8 A. No, after I was taken out. Please don't pin me down to dates,

9 because I started to be taken out from the KP Dom to the metalwork shop at

10 some point.

11 Q. So, sir, you mean to say a month or two after you were taken out

12 to the metalwork shop?

13 A. I'm saying approximately. It can vary. It's perhaps a month

14 sooner or later. You're asking me to say something that I don't remember

15 exactly.

16 Q. You are a witness here and we are discussing a very important

17 matter. I don't want to insist that you remember something that you

18 cannot remember, but I'm just asking you to tell us to the best of your

19 memory when approximately you saw that vehicle washed.

20 A. I just said. A month or a month and a half later, and even that

21 is not a time frame I can swear to. But if you insist, let it be a month

22 later.

23 Q. So counting from your arrival to the KP Dom, that would be two or

24 three months later?

25 A. Two months, two to three months at the outside.

Page 4527

1 Q. So that would make it the end of August, early September?

2 A. No, no. In any case, it would be before that. Let us see. May,

3 June. That could have been August, perhaps.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, since it was a month after you

5 started working, how many times did you wash that car before that?

6 A. That, too, is a difficult question to answer, how many times I

7 worked on the kedi, how many times I worked on the vehicle 16 or vehicle

8 20, or the vehicle FAP. I cannot say. It's a long period. I cannot say

9 how many times I had to deal with a particular vehicle.

10 Q. I asked you, sir, how many times before the time when you saw it

11 washed did you wash it yourself?

12 A. We washed it and we oiled it and lubricated it and changed the oil

13 and did all the work that needed to be done on all the vehicles of the KP

14 Dom. We were the only ones who had to do that work. I cannot remember

15 how many times I did that.

16 Q. Did you ever wash this kedi at all before you saw it washed?

17 A. We washed all vehicles, not only that one.

18 Q. When you saw that vehicle washed, did you see any traces of blood

19 there?

20 A. No. I was just passing by. I only saw a vehicle freshly washed.

21 I couldn't see any blood. We were just passing by on our way to the

22 metalwork shop.

23 Q. On that day when you saw that washed kedi, did you work normally

24 in the metalwork shop as on any other day?

25 A. Quite normally.

Page 4528

1 Q. All the people who normally worked in the metalwork shop, you

2 worked normally throughout the day?

3 A. I cannot remember about everyone, but it was a regular working day

4 for us. I don't know whether it was the same for everyone.

5 Q. Can you remember who was next to you when you were passing by that

6 car?

7 A. It's a very difficult question to which I cannot give an answer.

8 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned Miso Krsmanovic, if I remember

9 correctly, a driver, and you mentioned that you prepared the vehicle for

10 the road. Whose driver was Miso Krsmanovic?

11 A. Miso Krsmanovic used to drive the 1620 freight vehicle, and

12 whether there was somebody in that vehicle with him, I cannot know; where

13 he went, who was with him.

14 Q. To your knowledge, did Miso Krsmanovic travel frequently?

15 A. Yes. And another driver, his last name is Milic. I cannot

16 remember the first name. The two of them took turns on that 1620

17 vehicle.

18 Q. Did these men also drive the red 128 that you mentioned?

19 A. I cannot say that with any certainty, but I saw that vehicle when

20 it came to the metalwork shop to be serviced for tyres to be pumped up, et

21 cetera. That vehicle was brought to us because Mr. Krnojelac never

22 contacted with us, really.

23 Q. So Krsmanovic and Milic would bring that red 128 vehicle to be

24 prepared for the road?

25 A. You misunderstood me. I was speaking about the 1620 vehicle, and

Page 4529












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4530

1 these men -- in fact, it was mainly the chief of the metalwork shop,

2 Goljanin, who brought the vehicle for servicing.

3 Q. Outside those occasions when it was brought to be serviced at your

4 shop, did you have any occasion to find out where that vehicle was driven,

5 when it went out to town?

6 A. That was not my job. My job was to prepare that vehicle for --

7 when the warden needed it.

8 Q. Did you do that often, prepare the vehicle for the road for

9 journeys?

10 A. Not very frequently.

11 Q. You said you serviced it almost every month.

12 A. I say not very frequently, using as a reference my journeys to

13 Miljevina which lasted a month each. So if I take into account that I

14 went to Miljevina three or four times and was away for a month at least

15 each time, that means I was away from the KP Dom at least for four months.

16 Q. While you were in Miljevina, did anyone else take care of that

17 car?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us who?

20 A. The late Sevko Kubat. For a while, Rasim Taranin was the man. In

21 another period it was the person under the number 144. He sometimes

22 worked in the metalwork shop. Those were approximately the people who

23 worked up there.

24 Q. Did you repair military vehicles, vehicles of the military police?

25 A. Yes. On one occasion only, it was a Deutz vehicle. Deutz 110.

Page 4531

1 It came to the compound one day, and there was an UAZ vehicle with a

2 changed engine. It used to be a petrol engine, but it was changed.

3 Another engine was built into it. I don't know whose property it was. I

4 don't know whether it was owned by the army or the military police. Only

5 one military vehicle came to the KP Dom.

6 Q. Did you notice outside the KP Dom a VW vehicle which also had a

7 peculiar sound of the exhaust pipe, Volkswagon?

8 A. Out of those vehicles, the only one I know is the one which took

9 me to Miljevina. It was a Golf, a Volkswagen Golf. After the warden was

10 replaced, a new vehicle appeared, a brand new white Golf diesel, and that

11 was the only vehicle I noticed there. And only one time did a Volkswagen

12 Bug arrival, a Beetle.

13 Q. Whose was it?

14 A. I don't know who the owner was, but at that moment Janic, also

15 known as Tuta, was in the metalwork shop, and a man called Daco, and I

16 don't know if there was anybody else who came with those vehicles.

17 Q. Did that vehicle have a peculiar sound of the exhaust pipe?

18 A. I don't know because it didn't come up to the metalwork shop. It

19 stopped at the metal gate. The man alone worked to the workshop.

20 Q. You said yesterday during your examination-in-chief that you

21 frequently took tyres from the waste dump, patched them, and fixed them

22 onto cars. Do you know why you did that?

23 A. Because there were no new tyres available. We found very few new

24 tyres and we had to do with old ones.

25 Q. Thank you, sir. You said in your statement that the International

Page 4532

1 Red Cross brought some furnaces. Were those furnaces distributed to you?

2 Were they distributed among the prisoners?

3 A. Yes. After the arrival of the International Red Cross, the

4 furnaces were distributed.

5 Q. You said that Sevko Kubat died at the KP Dom. Could you tell us

6 when that happened, which month approximately and which year?

7 A. I cannot tell you the month or the date, but it was in 1994,

8 perhaps four months before all of us were exchanged.

9 Q. So it was in 1994 that Savo Todovic reprimanded him for not

10 working, for shirking from work?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. You spoke about the Miljevina mine and how you

13 went there in December 1992 and tried to repair some cars and make them

14 operational. You also mentioned that a working group was formed to work

15 at the Miljevina mine. Do you know when it was formed and when it started

16 working?

17 A. I don't know exactly.

18 Q. Are you familiar with the name Todor Stojanovic?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. I have a register of duty rosters here. Do you -- these duty

21 rosters refer to the mine. Do you allow for the possibility that the

22 first group went to work at the mine in September 1993?

23 A. I cannot claim because I am not sure.

24 Q. Thank you, sir. When you went to Miljevina for the first time,

25 you said Pedo and another person were with you in the vehicle. What was

Page 4533

1 Pedo wearing?

2 A. He had a camouflage uniform on.

3 Q. A military camouflage uniform?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Did he also carry an automatic rifle?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it true that you stated that you were the only one who was

8 taken out at that time?

9 A. No. Before that, smaller groups had been taken out to disassemble

10 some machines. All I know is that two or three men would be taken out to

11 town which means that I was not the only one at that moment.

12 Q. Do you know when Dr. Torlak left the KP Dom?

13 A. I cannot remember the date in his case, either, but it was

14 sometime in 1993,. I think he was among the last people to leave the KP

15 Dom.

16 Q. Is it also true that you stated that you had heard that Dr. Torlak

17 was taken to Pale?

18 A. I didn't hear anything of this sort.

19 Q. I will read out to you, sir, a part of your statement given to the

20 Office of the Prosecutor in 1995. It's page 9, one paragraph before last

21 towards the end. "When I was in Miljevina I heard that Dr. Torlak had

22 been taken out to be a doctor at Pale."

23 A. Yes, yes, I remember that statement now. And that's the story

24 that did the rounds. I'm sorry, it's been a long time and that's really

25 the statement I have given, and I could say the same thing again.

Page 4534

1 Q. When you were passing through the hole behind the metal door, that

2 is the path you had to take every day to the metalwork shop; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. From the moment you started working, that is to say, 40 or 45

6 days after you were brought to the KP Dom; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you see blood on the walls in that hall?

9 A. I personally did not see any blood; however, what was very

10 noticeable was lots and lots of holes in the wall from bullets that had

11 been fired.

12 Q. In that hall, how wide is that hall?

13 A. About two and a half, three metres. It's longer than that. I'm

14 just telling you all of this approximately.

15 Q. However, you saw these holes on the lateral walls that are two,

16 two and a half metres away from each other; is that right?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Did you see bullet holes anywhere else except in that hall?

19 A. Of course there were holes outside, too, on the facades, then also

20 at the metal shop you could see lots of casings and things like that,

21 because there was quite a bit of shooting at first. You didn't know where

22 the shooting was coming from or who was shooting or whatever.

23 Q. You talked about persons who came to your room after beatings.

24 You mentioned a few persons. Did they tell you where they had been beaten

25 and who had beaten them?

Page 4535

1 A. Yes. A few people came, although most of the people who had been

2 beaten very badly would end up in isolation cells very often, and there

3 were some persons who were brought directly to the rooms. Never could a

4 person mention the name of the person who had beaten that person because

5 they were mostly masked, things like that, in most cases, that is.

6 Q. When you say masked, you mean that they had masks on their faces;

7 but do you know what they wore, what kind of clothes?

8 A. They did not explain this in detail, what kind of uniforms they

9 were in, that is.

10 Q. Yesterday you spoke about Mohamed Alikadic that you saw him at the

11 window. At which window, which room, which floor, which part of the

12 building?

13 A. I don't know which room number that was. That is at the pavilion

14 where we were, opposite Room 16 to the right. I think it was the last

15 floor, in the very corner.

16 Q. Was the window open?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. So he leaned across the open window and showed this to you, or

19 what happened?

20 A. No, no. It so happened that as I was leaving the dining room I

21 glanced at that building, the window was open. He was about a metre or a

22 metre and a half into the room, and we knew each other very well and

23 probably our glances met. And he just sort of signalled to me that he'd

24 like a cigarette or a shaver, but that was impossible since he had already

25 been in isolation.

Page 4536

1 Q. Was there anybody else with him in that room on the top floor?

2 A. I can't say because I did not see anybody but him.

3 Q. You said that he asked you not to tell anyone about what he had

4 done. Did you tell anyone?

5 A. Only the investigation.

6 Q. Do you know whether he told any other detainee?

7 A. I'm not sure.

8 Q. Do you know that as records what Alikadic did from the base to the

9 Osanica bridge there was only Serb-held territory?

10 A. I was not quite aware of the separation line, but allegedly it was

11 the Osanica bridge.

12 Q. So from the bridge towards Foca towards the KP Dom, it was

13 Serb-held territory?

14 A. That's the way it was supposed to have been.

15 Q. You said that in that truck that he drove backwards, he had been

16 tied to the seat. Do you know what he had been tied with?

17 A. He did not tell me what he had been tied with, but he said that he

18 had been tied and buckled to the seat.

19 Q. Sir, you said that in the KP Dom you got pneumonia and that they

20 had to treat you. Who treated you, and when did you get pneumonia?

21 A. Pneumonia? Pneumonia? I got pneumonia -- I'm not sure. I'm not

22 sure whether it's 1992 or 1993. I think it's the winter of 1993. I was

23 in Miljevina. In the morning I got up and I was all feverish, and they

24 took me back to the KP Dom. Gojko was there then, and that moment Aziz

25 Torlak was at Gojko's and Karovic, too, and they came to the conclusion

Page 4537

1 that it was pneumonia on the left side.

2 I was prescribed penicillin injections. I don't know exactly how

3 many.

4 Q. Did you get these penicillin shots?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who was Gojko?

7 A. He was the nurse who worked at the clinic in the KP Dom.

8 Q. What were Dr. Aziz Torlak and Dr. Karovic doing at his place?

9 A. I don't know. I don't know what they were doing then, but that

10 moment when I came to the office, they were there with Gojko. At Gojko's

11 insistence that they should also listen to me through the stethoscope,

12 they all came to the same conclusion.

13 Q. How long did you take -- did you get these penicillin shots, for

14 how long, for how many days?

15 A. I said just now that I don't know exactly for how long. I think I

16 got seven of them. I'm not sure. Every day a shot.

17 Q. Who gave you these shots? Who administered them to you?

18 A. Precisely Gojko.

19 Q. You went to the clinic, I presume?

20 A. Yes. I went to the clinic. But again, I was always escorted by

21 the person who was on duty in the compound.

22 Q. Did you see Dr. Dobrilovic or Dr. Vladicic come into the clinic at

23 the KP Dom where Gojko worked?

24 A. Yes, yes, once, once. I said that we went out, so perhaps they

25 came several times, but once I did notice them coming to the building

Page 4538

1 where the KP Dom clinic was.

2 Q. Sir, you talked about the transit room. This transit room at the

3 administration building of the KP Dom, did it have any windows and which

4 direction did these windows face?

5 A. I don't know which transit room you're referring to.

6 Q. You pointed out a transit room to the left of the entrance behind

7 the room, the reception office, where the guards were?

8 A. Yes, yes. I think these windows faced the road, the Drina.

9 Q. Sir, yesterday you said here that because you worked so hard at

10 the KP Dom, your back was injured. Before the KP Dom, did you have an

11 office job or did you also work hard before the war broke out and before

12 you came to the KP Dom?

13 A. Yes, yes. I was only a mechanic. But I worked at the [redacted]

14 [redacted] all the time, and that was quite different from

15 everything else. We had lifts and extra lifts and all the most up-to-date

16 equipment a the time.

17 Q. You said that your eyes also got weaker, your eyesight due to the

18 KP Dom. Are you aware of the fact that in your 40s, your eyesight gets

19 poorer, or do you think it only has to do with the KP Dom?

20 A. I am not an expert in medicine; however, I did notice that my

21 eyesight was getting poorer, much poorer. What the reason for this is,

22 I'm really no expert. I cannot be the judge of that.

23 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these were all the

25 questions that the Defence had of this witness.

Page 4539

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Re-examination, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour, I have a few matters

3 to clarify. First of all, I think there is a mistake in the transcript,

4 but I didn't want to interrupt Mr. Bakrac because I want to clarify it

5 now.

6 On page 45, line 5 it was actually in the transcript that before

7 his transfer to the Room 13 he was briefly in Room 16, and I think that's

8 a mistake and I just want to clarify it.

9 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

10 Q. You said first you were in Room 16, then you were transferred to

11 Room 18, and finally to Room 13. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes. I already said that to the gentleman. I explained it to

13 him. I don't know whether you understood what I was saying.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, it has to be number 18

15 instead of number 16 as it says in the transcript, then.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that may or may not be so, but it doesn't

17 matter. He's now got it sorted out.


19 Q. You also mentioned this 1620 freight vehicle which also has a --

20 had something wrong with the exhaust pipe. The sound of this 1620 freight

21 vehicle, was it different from the kedi, the sound that the kedi exhaust

22 pipe made?

23 A. Of course it was, because a freight vehicle and a passenger

24 vehicle can never make the same kind of noise, and it can never be of the

25 same loudness as well.

Page 4540












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4541

1 Q. In relation to the red 128, you said that Goljanin usually brought

2 it, brought it in when it was to be serviced by you. From where did he

3 bring it in, do you know that?

4 A. It is hard to say where he brought it from because the compound of

5 the metalwork shop is closed. I already described the door. So where

6 could this vehicle come from? Somewhere from the outside, from the

7 parking lot, wherever.

8 Q. Was there a special parking lot for the cars belonging to the KP

9 Dom?

10 A. Certainly.

11 Q. Where was it?

12 A. Part of it was right next to the KP Dom. The other part was

13 across the street, on the other side of the road as you go towards the

14 hospital. And also, lots of old vehicles, Furgons that were no longer

15 used, were parked at this other end of the parking lot on the other side

16 of the road.

17 Q. Do you know where the red 128 was usually parked? Did you see it

18 on any of these parking spots that you just mentioned?

19 A. Well, even if they were parked, these official vehicles and

20 personal vehicles would usually be parked right by the KP Dom.

21 Q. And did you see this red 128 being parked there?

22 A. Well, perhaps a few times.

23 Q. Did you ever see someone else driving it except for Mr. Krnojelac

24 and Mr. Goljanin?

25 A. I never noticed.

Page 4542

1 Q. Mr. Bakrac addressed with you the bullet holes that you saw in the

2 hall behind the metal door. Would you be able to point it out on a photo

3 where you saw the holes?

4 A. If you have one.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

6 show the photo 7470. That is a photo that we have already discussed with

7 the witness. The bottom, the bottom photo, please.

8 Q. Sir, are you able to point to us where you saw the bullet holes?

9 A. Let me just explain. These holes had just been patched by two

10 young men from Djidjevo. One is [redacted], the other one I don't know. You

11 can perhaps notice a patched hole here, and I don't know where else.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

13 microphone; he can no longer be heard.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

15 A. These holes here were patched by two young men from Djidjevo. One

16 was [redacted]; I don't know the other one. I don't know his last name, that

17 is. And they were precisely in my room. And one day in the afternoon, it

18 was around 12.00 or -- I don't know, I wasn't working that day. They were

19 taken out, and they were patching these holes.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is --

21 A. That's it, approximately.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the wall to the

23 right from the yellow arrow, that is, to the right from the metal door,

24 and he was pointing at the lower, lower part of the wall, almost close to

25 the floor.

Page 4543

1 Yes, thank you. And these were the questions that the Prosecution

2 had.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, sir, for giving evidence.

4 You're now free to leave.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE HUNT: Now, is 172 your next witness.

8 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE HUNT: From last week, yes. What are the protective

10 measures for this Witness?

11 MS. KUO: The witness was granted a pseudonym, image distortion,

12 and voice distortion.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if it's going to be voice distortion, the video

14 people like to have a special test done with him. I think we may adjourn

15 for our lunch now and resume at 2.30 instead of taking another 10-minute

16 break when we come back. 2.30, then.

17--- Luncheon recess taken at 12.51 p.m.









Page 4544













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts.












Page 4545

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo. Is this your witness?

4 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Stand up, please, sir. Would you please

6 make the solemn declaration in the terms of the document which is being

7 shown to you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter].

12 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir. The pseudonym document will

13 be Exhibit P441, and it is under seal.

14 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Examined by Ms. Kuo:

16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. Witness, before you is a sheet of paper which is document P441,

19 and on top of it you will see FWS-172. Do you see that?

20 A. I see it.

21 Q. Underneath that, is that your name?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Beneath your name, is that your birth date?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Beneath your birth date, is that the profession that you had in

Page 4546

1 Foca in 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And below that, is that the name of the place where you were

4 working in 1992?

5 A. [redacted]

6 Q. Very well. Sir, in 1992, how long had you been working at your

7 profession?

8 A. I did my regular work in shifts.

9 Q. Without telling us what you were doing because you've asked for us

10 to keep this under seal, could you tell us how many years you were working

11 at that profession?

12 A. I have a total of 38 years of service.

13 Q. In 1992, where were you living?

14 A. [redacted]

15 Q. Were you married?

16 A. Yes, but I'm a widower.

17 Q. When the war began in Foca in April 1992, were you at home?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you go to work during that time?

20 A. When the war started in April, there was the first casualty, a

21 neighbour of mine who was a policeman. I asked for two days' sick leave

22 to attend the funeral of this man who was killed. That man was a

23 policeman. [redacted], and he was the first casualty in

24 Foca.

25 Q. After the sick leave to attend his funeral, did you go back to

Page 4547

1 work?

2 A. Yes. I came back to work, and on my way to work from home, we

3 made a detour. I had boarded a bus going downtown, and when we reached

4 the army hall, we saw that all the windows had been broken and there were

5 automatic weapons pointed at the bus.

6 Q. How long did you stay at work?

7 A. At that time I stayed at work. I was sort of repaying other

8 colleagues working their shifts so that from the 11th of April until the

9 25th of April, I didn't leave the hospital at all because it was

10 impossible to leave the hospital compound. The bus didn't run any longer,

11 and it was dangerous to take that road because the plateau in front of the

12 hospital was under constant attack from the surrounding hills. It was

13 covered with bursts of gunfire, so it was unsafe to leave or to come back.

14 Q. Now, you said, sir, that you were at the hospital until the 25th

15 of April. Was the hospital functioning at that time?

16 A. The hospital was functioning around the clock. It was receiving

17 wounded and sick people who were coming in.

18 Q. Did it receive patients of one ethnicity or another?

19 A. The hospital admitted all patients who came in asking for help.

20 Q. Did you notice whether the patients were civilian or military?

21 A. Most of them were civilians. One evening we admitted four people

22 wounded by shells from Foca itself. It was around 1.00 we received

23 several patients from Visegrad, including some elderly people and several

24 women.

25 Q. Do you know what ethnicity those four from Visegrad were?

Page 4548

1 A. All of them were Bosniak.

2 Q. Was the hospital ever taken over by Serb military?

3 A. After four or five days, I'm not sure of the date, it might have

4 been the 15th or the 16th, the army took over the hospital.

5 Q. In what way did they take it over?

6 A. One evening they simply walked in. Nobody offered any

7 resistance.

8 Q. Did the military change the way the hospital was being run?

9 A. The hospital worked normally. The soldiers introduced themselves

10 as the Serbian guard, White Eagles, Arkan's men, and locals who were

11 hiding their faces. At least, some of them.

12 Q. Were the Serb forces armed?

13 A. All of them were armed with automatic weapons.

14 Q. Did any of them ever interfere with the admission of patients into

15 the hospital?

16 A. In the first two or three days, no.

17 Q. And then?

18 A. Later, on the 16th or the 17th, they personally brought two

19 wounded Bosniaks.

20 Q. Do you know where they were brought from?

21 A. They were brought from a place near Foca. One came from a village

22 called Sukovac, and the other one was from downtown. I know the names of

23 these people.

24 Q. Could you tell us their names, please. Uzeir Cankusic was

25 wounded in his shoulder, in his right shoulder

Page 4549

1 Q. And the second person?

2 A. And the second person was an auto mechanic, Ibro Selimovic.

3 Q. What happened when Mr. Cankusic and Mr. Selimovic were brought to

4 the hospital?

5 A. That was in the evening hours, and the medical team on duty,

6 Dr. Supic, a surgeon, and Dr. Aziz Torlak, also a surgeon, wanted to admit

7 these two and keep them for treatment because they were in need of medical

8 assistance.

9 Q. Were they allowed to stay?

10 A. The people who brought them didn't allow it, so the men were just

11 bandaged and taken back.

12 Q. Do you know -- you mentioned that Mr. Cankusic was injured in the

13 shoulder. Do you know specifically what injuries he had?

14 A. His injuries were inflicted by firearms.

15 Q. And Mr. Selimovic?

16 A. He was beaten up, and his ribs were fractured.

17 Q. Now, you said the guards who brought Mr. Cankusic and

18 Mr. Selimovic to the hospital would not let them stay and receive

19 treatment. Do you know why they were brought there at all?

20 A. I don't know why. They took them back immediately, but they

21 brought them again the next morning.

22 Q. What happened the next morning when they were brought back?

23 A. The next morning the surgical team on duty wanted to admit them

24 once again.

25 Q. Who brought them the next morning?

Page 4550

1 A. They were brought by two uniformed military men. One of them was

2 referred to as Vojvoda, which means the duke. I didn't know who the man

3 was.

4 Q. Were they members of the Serb military?

5 A. They were members of what was called the Serbian guard.

6 Q. And were those two men allowed to be treated by the surgical

7 team?

8 A. As I said, the surgeons were not allowed to give them medical

9 assistance. Instead, they were taken through -- across the compound of

10 the hospital and outside the compound, sorry.

11 Q. Was it just those two men, or was there anybody else with them?

12 A. Since I was at my workplace, I could see only two of them in the

13 hallway which was next to me. They were taken outside the compound, and

14 perhaps five or 600 metres away from the hospital they were found dead the

15 next day. They had been killed.

16 And another person, another wounded man who had spent the night at

17 the hospital had been taken away with them. His name was Adnan Isanovic.

18 Q. What happened to Mr. Isanovic?

19 A. He had been taken away with them and killed, too.

20 Q. How do you know that they were killed?

21 A. Some passersby came in to the hospital and told us that it had

22 happened.

23 Q. Do you know who killed them?

24 A. I didn't see it, but I know who took them away.

25 Q. Who took them away?

Page 4551












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4552

1 A. The people I mentioned, the one called Vojvoda and his escort.

2 Q. Did either of those two men make any comments before these three

3 men were led away?

4 A. The one who called himself Vojvoda told the surgeon that they were

5 finished, that he personally would cure them.

6 Q. Did you ever see the bodies of those three men who were killed?

7 A. Yes, I did. The corpses were collected and brought to the

8 hospital morgue.

9 Q. Is that where you saw them?

10 A. I saw them and several other people who were identified by

11 Dr. Zijo Ajanovic.

12 Q. Do you know where Mr. Cankusic and Mr. Selimovic were taken, where

13 they spent the night before this happened, from the first visit to the

14 hospital to the second?

15 A. They told me that they had spent the night at the KP Dom, the

16 former prison, and that they couldn't get any sleep from the pain.

17 Q. Who told you that?

18 A. That sick man, the men told me that when they came again the next

19 morning.

20 Q. Were there ever any incidents where soldiers at the hospital shot

21 at anyone?

22 A. Soldiers didn't shoot at the staff at the hospital. On one

23 occasion there was a van going along the left bank of the Drina River

24 carrying five, six, or ten women and children, and from the compound they

25 shot at them with automatic weapons, and they hit the driver. The van

Page 4553

1 swerved and crashed into the cemetery called Patkovina.

2 Q. Were any of the injured from that crash brought to the hospital?

3 A. Yes. The driver was shot dead in the head, and some women and

4 children were brought to the hospital.

5 Q. Was that vehicle a military vehicle or civilian, do you know?

6 A. It was a civilian van, and inside, inside the van were only women

7 and children.

8 Q. What ethnicity were the women and children and driver?

9 A. They were of Muslim or Bosniak ethnicity.

10 Q. What direction were they headed when they were shot?

11 A. They were going towards Gorazde along the left bank of the Drina.

12 Q. Were any staff members from the hospital taken away?

13 A. After that, some staff were taken away. On the 24th of April,

14 Dr. Aziz Torlak was taken away.

15 Q. Were you also taken away at some point?

16 A. I was taken away together with two of my colleagues on the 25th of

17 April.

18 Q. Could you tell us how you were taken away? Were you taken from

19 the hospital?

20 A. That afternoon, around five, half past five, I don't remember

21 exactly, I was called to come to the gate of the hospital.

22 Q. Why were you called there?

23 A. Allegedly to give a statement of some sort.

24 Q. Who was at the gate of the hospital when you got there?

25 A. There were soldiers, guards, and one security man from the

Page 4554

1 hospital.

2 Q. Did they say anything to you about what you should do?

3 A. Since I was wearing my work clothes, they told me to go back and

4 get dressed, to change.

5 Q. Did they tell you why?

6 A. They didn't say anything as to why, but I went back, changed, and

7 they told me that I'm going to -- that I was going to give a statement,

8 and then I would be taken back.

9 Q. Where were you taken?

10 A. We were taken directly outside the KP Dom. There were no

11 statements at all, nothing. They turned us over directly to the guard of

12 the KP Dom, which was a camp.

13 Q. You mentioned that you were not taken alone. Who else was taken

14 with you?

15 A. They took Enver Cemo, and Izet Causevic.

16 Q. Are you able to identify who took you there?

17 A. I'm not sure about their names, but there was -- one of them was

18 Banovic, nicknamed Bota, and one town policeman by the name of Mate. I

19 don't know his last name. We called him Mate.

20 Q. The person you identified --

21 A. And there was one other man whom I didn't know.

22 Q. The person you identified by the nickname Bota, what was his --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was his position, or what kind of uniform was he wearing?

25 A. Both of them wore military uniforms.

Page 4555

1 Q. Mr. Cemo and Mr. Causevic are of what ethnicity?

2 A. Bosniaks, the same as I.

3 Q. Do you know whether any Serb hospital personnel were allowed to

4 continue working?

5 A. Yes. They went to work regularly.

6 Q. Was that even after your arrest?

7 A. They worked even after my arrest, and even some Bosniak staff

8 continued to work after my arrest. I don't know for how long because I

9 was away. I had already been taken into custody.

10 Q. And to return just very briefly to the person named Bota, did you

11 ever hear what happened to him later?

12 A. I was going to say something more about what happened to the

13 wounded people who arrived at the hospital from the town.

14 Q. What did you want to say about them?

15 A. I wanted to say that those wounded people from Foca were taken

16 care of. They were very seriously wounded. Some of them underwent

17 surgery, and two persons, when the hospital had already been taken over,

18 were taken away to Sarajevo by the Medicins Sans Frontieres for maxial

19 facial surgery. And Nikola Koljevic accompanied those Medicins Sans

20 Frontieres.

21 Q. What time period are you referring to?

22 A. That was the period when wounded people were coming in from Foca

23 and Visegrad, the period before the takeover of the hospital.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness. Regarding Bota, could you tell us if you

25 heard what happened to him later?

Page 4556

1 A. I heard when we were in that camp, we were being classified into

2 work groups according to our skills. There was a construction work group,

3 there was a group of craftsmen, mechanics, and drivers. The mechanics,

4 locksmiths, and electricians were engaged in the dissembling of

5 construction machinery in the town, and those machines were brought to a

6 place above our quarters beneath an awning.

7 Q. Witness, perhaps you didn't understand my question. You

8 identified one of the men who took you to KP Dom by the name Banovic with

9 the nickname Bota. Did you ever hear what happened to him?

10 A. In relation to these men, those who went out to work in the

11 construction group, we found out that Bota -- or, rather, that Milorad

12 Krnojelac's sons, the warden's sons, were wounded somewhere around

13 Tjentiste, that they ran into a minefield.

14 Q. And was Bota also involved in the vehicle that ran over the

15 minefield?

16 A. Allegedly, yes. Bota and one or two of the warden's sons. I

17 don't know for sure, but that is the piece of news that went through the

18 camp.

19 Q. Now, when you arrived at the KP Dom, where were you taken?

20 A. When I arrived in the KP Dom, they put me in a transit room, and

21 those two who came with me, too, Cemo and Causevic.

22 Q. What room was that?

23 A. Room 12.

24 Q. How long were you kept in Room 12?

25 A. Until I got out. Until the 30th of August, 1992.

Page 4557

1 Q. During your time at KP Dom, were you ever interrogated?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When was that?

4 A. I can't remember the date of interrogation because first I was

5 interrogated by Koprivica nicknamed Kopi, I can't remember his first

6 name.

7 Q. Did you make a statement at that time?

8 A. I gave part of the statement, and then a huge man walked in. He

9 was in military uniform, or rather, his trousers belonged to a military

10 uniform, and he also had a shirt with short sleeves, and then they talked,

11 and then the whole thing was interrupted and he told me that it would be

12 continued the next day.

13 Q. Was it continued?

14 A. However, it was not continued. Perhaps 15 days went by.

15 Q. What happened after 15 days?

16 A. After 15 days, I was called in for an interrogation, and I was

17 interrogated by Zoran Vladicic.

18 Q. Did you sign a statement at that time?

19 A. I did sign this statement about him interrogating me.

20 Q. Did you sign a statement during the interrogation?

21 A. Well, during the interrogation. He was interrogating me, and

22 there was this statement, and he offered it to me, and I signed it.

23 Q. Were you threatened?

24 A. I tried to read the statement. He didn't let me. He said to me,

25 "Do you want me to write that, `I killed ten persons?'"

Page 4558

1 Q. He wanted -- he threatened that he would write down that you

2 killed ten persons?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What did you do when he said that?

5 A. I said you can do whatever you want, but my conscience is clear.

6 I said, you can check with my colleagues. From the 10th till the 20th, or

7 rather, 25th of April, I never left the hospital.

8 Q. Did you sign the statement then?

9 A. I did sign the statement, and he accused me of being commander of

10 a medical corps squad. I said to him that I'm not even a military

11 conscript, as I was not. It is true that I was a commander of a military

12 squad at the time when I did my military service.

13 Q. How many years ago was that?

14 A. You mean when I did my military service? I did my military

15 service in 1950.

16 Q. Sir, while you were detained at the KP Dom, were you ever beaten?

17 A. They did not beat me physically, but there was terrible torture

18 during the interrogation. It would have been easier for me to have been

19 beaten than to have been insulted that way.

20 Q. Could you tell us what you mean by the torture during the

21 interrogation?

22 A. Provocative questions. They were saying things that were

23 impossible, that I had weapons, that I was an organiser of the

24 resistance. Since I was an old man, I did not -- I could not have been

25 involved in anything like that, nor were there any grounds for that. And

Page 4559

1 I was at my working place all the time when all of that was happening.

2 Q. How did that make you feel, the way you were treated?

3 A. Well, I felt that the worst would happen, that there would be

4 beatings. At one moment, I almost felt sick.

5 Q. Do you know if other detainees were beaten?

6 A. Other detainees will say. I did not see that, so I cannot

7 maintain that.

8 Q. Did you ever hear the sound of people being beaten?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When would you hear the sounds?

11 A. Not during the day, but during the night when they took them out

12 after this tragedy that occurred with Krnojelac's son and Bota, we were

13 all terribly afraid. Sometime in mid-June, people were taken out during

14 the night, five or four persons at a time. Screams could be heard,

15 yelling, and footsteps in the part of the administration building.

16 Q. Are you able to identify people who were taken out and beaten in

17 this way?

18 A. I can identify quite a few such persons because seven were taken

19 out of the room that I was in. I can mention the names and surnames of

20 these persons.

21 Q. Please tell us.

22 A. Kuloglija Mustafa was taken out among the first. Husein Rikalo.

23 His brother, Necko Rikalo, Meho Pasovic, Nurko Niksic, Salem Bico, Amer

24 Frasto.

25 Q. Perhaps I'll just go back --

Page 4560

1 A. And from other rooms, other people were taken. In the morning

2 when we would go to breakfast, in front of Room 12, some of the people I

3 knew did not show up. Among others, there was Zulfo Veiz, a policeman;

4 Dzano Vahida, a policeman; Munib Veiz, a sales person; Adnan Granov,

5 Abdurahman Cankusic, Refik Cankusic, nicknamed Pepi. These were two

6 brothers, the two Soro brothers, Suljo and Seval, and Alija Altoka, Nail

7 Hodzic, Ramo Dzendusic, and I could not mention everyone now. While all

8 of this was fresh in my memory, I wrote all of them down, so perhaps I

9 would need that to refresh my memory. My memory is the way it is after

10 nine years, after all.

11 Q. When did you prepare the list?

12 A. Just after I got out of prison while my memory was still fresh.

13 Q. Why did you make a list of these people?

14 A. Well, since I got out of prison, I thought that members of their

15 families would ask them -- ask me where they were and what happened to

16 them. I did not think that this would happen.

17 Q. You didn't think what would happen?

18 A. Trial, testimony.

19 Q. On what basis did you compile your list? Did you say it was just

20 from your memory because your memory was still fresh?

21 A. The basis of my memory, and also there were a few of us who got

22 out of prison, and then we talked. It was a longish list, some 35, 36

23 men, because 35 of us were set free.

24 Q. What year was that when you compiled the list?

25 A. 1992.

Page 4561

1 MS. KUO: Your Honours, --

2 A. The month of September.

3 MS. KUO: Your Honours, we would like to have the witness shown

4 this list which is marked ID 299. The English version is ID 299/A.

5 Q. Witness, I will not ask you specific questions about what's on the

6 list, but just ask you to identify that in fact you prepared that list.

7 A. Yes. Yes, I stand by this.

8 Q. And you said one of the reasons you prepared the list was in case

9 family members of those people asked you about them. Did, in fact, family

10 members approach you and ask about the people who are on your list?

11 A. Yes. I have close relatives on this list, too.

12 Q. Were the family members -- let me ask it to you this way: Do you

13 know if any of these people were ever seen again after they disappeared

14 from the KP Dom?

15 A. Not a single one of them has ever been seen since. In addition to

16 this, I will mention some bigger groups. I can even remember some of the

17 names.

18 Q. We'll get to that if a few moments.

19 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes to enter into

20 evidence exhibit -- ID 299 and 299/A as Prosecution Exhibit P299 and

21 299/A.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. They will be Exhibits P299 and P299/A.

25 Do they need to be under seal?

Page 4562












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Page 4563

1 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

3 MS. KUO: Your Honours, and also for the Court's convenience,

4 we've prepared what we have marked as -- it's not in the trial binders,

5 but it should be ID 299/A/1 which is an annotated copies, annotated

6 version

7 of the list. So it will have on it the schedule references where these

8 names appear. We've given a copy to Defence counsel.

9 JUDGE HUNT: That would be very helpful. Is there any objection

10 to it, Mr. Bakrac?

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know until we

12 get a copy. As far as I understood it, we haven't got a copy of that that

13 is being mentioned just now. What my learned friend is referring to now

14 is, is it ...

15 JUDGE HUNT: It's 299/A/1.

16 MS. KUO: It's actually the -- it's the English version of 299,

17 and it has been annotated with just handwritten numbers next to the names,

18 for instance, C-19 or B whatever.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Except that we

20 haven't got 299/A. We have A/1, but we haven't got 299/A.

21 JUDGE HUNT: I suspect that 299/A/1 is a copy of 299/A with the

22 handwriting on it. That's the way Ms. Kuo has described it. Is that

23 right, Ms. Kuo?

24 MS. KUO: Yes, precisely.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, then we have no

Page 4564

1 objections to this.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P299/A/1.

3 MS. KUO:

4 Q. Witness, the list that you -- that we've referred to that is now

5 299, you've given it the title "The list of people taken away in groups

6 from Foca KP Dom in the period between 26 June, 1992, and 15 July 1992."

7 Of the people on the list, do you know whether any of them were beaten?

8 A. It is these people. They were beaten in that interval. I

9 remember that well. Literally, we were coming back from dinner. I'm

10 going to tell you about a particular case, chronologically. Niksic, Nurko

11 and Konjo Halim were coming back from dinner, and the guard Obrenovic said

12 that they should report to the administration, and they reported. We went

13 to the room. Since both of them were from my room, I became restless. I

14 was really concerned.

15 Late in the evening, between 9.00 and 10.00, I went up to the

16 window because from Room 12, I could not see the exit through the

17 administrative building. I just heard a scream. I just heard screams and

18 yelling. They were shouting at the top of their lungs. Somebody called

19 out, "Nurko" in a really loud voice twice, "Nurko, Nurko." And then there

20 was no sound after that.

21 Perhaps about half an hour, an hour later a shot, a pistol shot

22 rang out, tuk-tuk-tuk-tuk. That meant that it wasn't only the two of

23 them. That's how it ended, that particular evening. They never

24 appeared again in the compound in any room, let alone our room.

25 Q. How many shots did you hear?

Page 4565

1 A. Five.

2 Q. After those five shots, did you hear anything else?

3 A. A car was heard several times, several evenings. It had a problem

4 with the exhaust pipe. It had a special sound. Whenever it came to the

5 prison, to the camp, people would disappear. I cannot tell you

6 chronologically now who these people were because there was such great

7 fear and anxiety as to who would be next. Usually the guard would come to

8 the door and call out some names, and then they would take them to the

9 administration building, and then we could no longer see them. I couldn't

10 see. I can't talk about others, what they could see and what they could

11 not see.

12 Q. Could you tell what direction the car with the broken exhaust pipe

13 was going after those five shots that night?

14 A. Towards town. We couldn't see, but towards town; or towards the

15 bridge, or towards town. Because the exit facing the bridge was 40 or 50

16 metres lower, and the other one was bigger, the one facing town, that is.

17 Q. Was it still daylight or was it already nighttime when the car

18 came and left?

19 A. Nighttime, nighttime invariably. Never during the day.

20 Q. Do you remember what date that was when Nurko Niksic and Halim

21 Konjo disappeared?

22 A. I can't remember the date, but it was sometime around mid-June.

23 Not only them, all of those who are listed here, over 35 names, that is,

24 in various intervals. Sometimes it would be one or two days, and then a

25 break, and then again.

Page 4566

1 Q. You said the guard Obrenovic called out Nurko Niksic and Halim

2 Konjo. Do you know his first name?

3 A. Obren was his nickname, and to tell you the truth, I wouldn't know

4 his real name. A big man, really big.

5 MS. KUO: Your Honours, there is a guard by the name of Dragomir

6 Obrenovic on Exhibit P3 at number 46.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

8 MS. KUO:

9 Q. Before that last time when you saw Nurko Niksic, did you see him

10 come back from being beaten, with injuries?

11 A. Yes. Once before he was taken out for an interrogation. He was

12 returned to the same room. Dr. Torlak was among us, and also Dr. Ibro

13 Karovic. We wrapped him in wet sheets. For two or three days he couldn't

14 go out for breakfast and lunch. We had to bring his meals to the room.

15 Then he got better, and then in about ten or 15 days, what I

16 talked about previously happened.

17 Q. Could you describe the injuries that Nurko Niksic had when you saw

18 him return to your room?

19 A. He was black and blue all over his body, on his chest, legs, arms,

20 and his face.

21 Q. Do you know if Mr. --

22 A. Haematoma.

23 Q. Witness, do you know if Dr. Aziz Torlak himself was ever beaten at

24 the KP Dom?

25 A. Aziz Torlak? On one occasion since we had worked together, he

Page 4567

1 complained to me. Somebody asked him for the key to his car. His car was

2 at the hospital. They took his car away, and he was -- he had been cut a

3 bit up here. He just showed this to me, and then he hid it again very

4 fast.

5 Q. When you say --

6 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, I had my head down when he indicated

7 that. Where did he indicate?

8 MS. KUO:

9 Q. Witness, when you said he had a cut here, you indicated the neck

10 area; is that right?

11 A. A bit of his neck, over here, a bit of his neck, a small cut, very

12 small cut. He came to give his car keys. He had a new Golf.

13 Q. Who did Dr. Torlak say cut him on the neck?

14 A. He didn't want to tell me. He said if we managed to survive,

15 people will know. He was afraid.

16 Q. Did he tell you whether it was a prison staff, like a guard, or

17 was it a soldier, or somebody from the outside?

18 A. Not somebody from the prison staff, somebody from the outside.

19 Q. But was this during the time when he was detained at the KP Dom?

20 A. He was detained at the KP Dom, yes. And we were together in this

21 transit Room 12.

22 Q. My question was specifically about when he received the injury.

23 Did he receive the injury while he was at KP Dom, or before he was brought

24 there?

25 A. While he was at the KP Dom.

Page 4568

1 Q. Did you see injuries on any other detainees?

2 A. I did. I did see injuries. On Enes Uzunovic.

3 Q. What injuries did --

4 A. Izet Causevic, Hajro Sabanovic, Avdo Mehmedspahic.

5 Q. What --

6 A. And, and Salko Mandzo.

7 Q. What injuries did you see on Mr. Uzunovic?

8 A. Enes Uzunovic, he had bruises all over his body.

9 Q. Did he tell you how he got them?

10 A. He didn't say. He didn't dare talk about it. He just waved his

11 hand.

12 Q. But did he sustain the injuries while he was at KP Dom?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Enes Uzunovic is listed in the indictment

15 at paragraph 5.29.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

17 MS. KUO: As well as on Schedule C, number 26.

18 Q. And Witness, what kind of injuries did you see on Izet Causevic?

19 A. There were bruises on his face.

20 Q. How did he sustain those?

21 A. At the interrogation, when he was interrogated he sustained those

22 injuries.

23 Q. Was that also at KP Dom?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What injuries did you see on Hajro Sabanovic?

Page 4569

1 A. Bruises all over his body. He sustained those on his -- upon his

2 arrival at the camp.

3 Q. How do you know that?

4 A. He was lying in my room.

5 Q. Did he tell you who beat him?

6 A. Burilo -- what's his name? I don't remember. He was nicknamed

7 Busi.

8 Q. Was that a guard?

9 A. Yes. He was a guard at the KP Dom, a full-time employee.

10 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the incident with Hajro Sabanovic is in

11 the indictment, paragraph 5.23, and there is a guard named Burilo -- we're

12 looking for the specific reference to the guard Burilo, but I think he's

13 been mentioned several times before.

14 JUDGE HUNT: He certainly has. But we've got the exhibit number,

15 too, haven't we, anyway, on the record here.

16 MS. KUO: He's number 56.

17 JUDGE HUNT: 56, thank you.

18 MS. KUO:

19 Q. Witness, what injuries did you see on Avdo Mehmedspahic?

20 A. Avdo Mehmedspahic worked at the pharmacy, and for a long time he

21 hid in his apartment. And when he asked to get out, to be released at the

22 end of June, instead of that he was brought to the prison, and he was

23 beaten up. He told me that he never knew who was beating him. He just

24 lost a tooth, and he couldn't even eat a slice of bread. And for two or

25 three days, he was unable to go to eat. He lay in his room until he

Page 4570

1 recovered. He was also in my room. And he said at the end when he came

2 to, that this same Burilo gave him a glass of brandy to come round, and

3 said that nobody would touch him again. That's what he said.

4 Q. Did Mr. Mehmedspahic say that Burilo beat him as well?

5 A. He didn't say anything about who beat him. Maybe he didn't dare.

6 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Mr. Avdo Mehmedspahic is listed in

7 Schedule B at number 40.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 MS. KUO:

10 Q. And finally, Salko Mandzo, what injuries did you see him with?

11 A. On Salko Mandzo when he was being taken away, I saw a cut next to

12 his eye, a cut made with a sharp object. And when he was brought back to

13 our room, they didn't let him stay there. A guard stood by waiting for

14 him until he collected his things, and he was immediately taken to another

15 room lest he told us who had done it and what had happened.

16 Q. Just to clarify, Witness, you said when -- that you saw this cut

17 on Mr. Mandzo when he was being taken away. Do you know how he received

18 that cut? Had he been taken out already, received the cut, and then came

19 back?

20 A. He came back with that cut. He didn't tell us how he sustained it

21 because he had no time. The guard stood by in the room while he collected

22 his things, and he was taken to another room.

23 MS. KUO: Your Honour, Salko Mandzo is listed in the indictment at

24 paragraph 5.28.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 4571

1 MS. KUO:

2 Q. Were detainees kept in solitary confinement; do you know?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know why they would be put there?

5 A. When people were brought to the prison, the prison authorities

6 logged them up according to some categorisation of their own and

7 according to people's conduct in the prison itself. If somebody, for

8 instance, queued twice for lunch to take two meals, they would be put into

9 solitary confinement, too.

10 Q. Did you ever hear people being beaten in the solitary confinement

11 cells?

12 A. In the part where I was, I wasn't close to solitary cells and I

13 couldn't hear it, whereas in other parts of the quarters, other inmates

14 said they could hear and that there were beatings. And one more thing, if

15 I may say, there were not enough solitary cells, so the prisoners

16 themselves built additional solitary cells to increase their number.

17 Q. When you say the prisoners themselves built it, was it on the

18 order of the KP Dom administration?

19 A. On the order of the KP Dom administration, and house painting

20 works were done by Fehim Dedovic and other works were done by Salcinovic,

21 Nusret.

22 Q. You mentioned at the beginning of your testimony that there were

23 several work groups formed. When you ever a part of those work groups?

24 A. No. Only once did I go to unload something. That happened only

25 once, because I was an elderly man and they always chose younger people,

Page 4572

1 stronger people.

2 Q. Where did you unload things?

3 A. I unloaded some foodstuffs at Mose Pijade street at a building

4 called Brena together with another inmate by the name of Zuko Sefkija.

5 Q. Who took you to unload the foodstuffs?

6 A. We were taken out by a guard, and there we found one uniformed

7 man, and in the vehicle there was the same town policeman by the name of

8 Mate.

9 Q. When you say a uniformed man, what kind of uniform was he wearing?

10 A. It was a military camouflage uniform.

11 Q. Do you know for whom that foodstuff was meant?

12 A. We unloaded that food into a shop. We didn't load anything, we

13 just unloaded the food. I don't know where it came from.

14 Q. Did you have a choice about whether to go do this?

15 A. No. A guard came and called our names out.

16 Q. Approximately when was this?

17 A. That was sometime in June. I don't remember the date.

18 Q. Witness, you mentioned that when people were taken out of the

19 rooms, many of them disappeared. When they were taken out, were they told

20 where they were being taken?

21 A. The people who were taken out during the night, somebody would

22 come to the door and call out their names. They were taken to the

23 administration building and screams and yelling were heard, and those

24 people were never seen again. Those are the people from this list that I

25 mentioned. In other groups -- or perhaps you wanted to ask something

Page 4573












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4574

1 else.

2 Q. No. Go on, you said, "In other groups."

3 A. On one occasion, sometime in June, a large group of prisoners was

4 put together and taken out. They told us when they came back about where

5 they had been. There had been women and children. They were taken to the

6 road towards Pljevlja near Cajnice. There was some kind of British

7 mission there, and some sort of fake exchange for Serbian soldiers had

8 been organised. However, this group of people just spent the night and

9 came back. The exchange didn't take place. They didn't know the reason

10 why, and none of us knew it, either.

11 Q. Were there other people taken out for exchange who actually did

12 not return?

13 A. As for other people, I remember another group. On the 25th of

14 August, that group was taken out sometime in the afternoon, and there were

15 18 people, as far as I could count. And on the 27th of August, another 20

16 men were taken out, as far as I could see - I could only see their heads

17 over the wall - and before they left, they were lined up in the hallway.

18 I can remember some names. I don't remember how many of them

19 there were, 34, 5, or 6. Among them were Saban Durak, Hajro Sabanovic,

20 Enver Sabanovic, Zaim Rikalo. A man called Culup [phoen], I don't

21 remember his name. Mumin Kameric, Dejro Cankusic, and Esad Soro, a

22 brother of Hadzi Mesic. I remember those people from those two groups.

23 Those people left carrying their things, and they had told us they were

24 going for an exchange. It's been nine years now, and I have never heard of

25 any of them, and I never heard that any of them had reappeared.

Page 4575

1 The next group was a large one, and I was in that group. We were

2 informed that people over 60 and people with some sort of a health problem

3 and underage persons were in it. They made a list of 55 persons. It was

4 on the 29th of August.

5 They took us out to the dining room, a large room, and we spent

6 there several hours until dark. Then there was some sort of commotion and

7 transfer from that part of the building which was nearer to the hospital.

8 Rooms 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15, all of these rooms were transferred to the

9 other side. And the group of people, whom I didn't manage to count

10 because it was dark already, was taken to the gate towards the

11 administration building. I don't remember how many there were. I

12 remember only one man who had been in solitary confinement. His name was

13 Sahmanovic, and his nickname name was Ace. He was running across the

14 compound wearing a wind breaker, and he waved to us standing in the dining

15 room: "Here I go, I'm leaving before you."

16 We kept waiting in that room. We didn't leave that night.

17 Instead, we were taken back to the transit Room 12, all 55 of us, and we

18 spent the entire night there. Some people got their 40 winks, and then in

19 the other -- the next morning, a bus came. We all filed out to the

20 courtyard. We boarded the bus, and we set off. We didn't know where. We

21 received no papers, nothing. We didn't know whether we were being

22 released or not.

23 In front of the administration building there was Savo Todovic.

24 He was standing there. Some people from downtown had come, Pasovic's

25 father-in-law, for instance, came to say good-bye.

Page 4576

1 At the bus station we stopped, and citizens were standing there

2 waiting, including citizens of Serb ethnicity. Some had brought some

3 food, bread. Some people even brought a bottle of spirits. Nobody

4 entered the buses. Then we went on towards Brod, Scepan Polje, making

5 stops.

6 Q. Witness, let me just interrupt you there. When you -- when all 55

7 of you were put on the bus, were you exchanged immediately, or were you

8 brought back to KP Dom later that same day, on the 30th of August?

9 A. We were not exchanged. There was no exchange. We travelled to

10 Niksic, and Pero Elez and Dragan Gagovic intercepted us just outside

11 Niksic, some ten kilometres before Niksic, and they sent us back. We

12 didn't know what was going on.

13 Q. Let me stop you.

14 A. We were --

15 Q. Who was Dragan Gagovic? Do you know what his official position

16 was?

17 A. He was the commander of the police station in Foca.

18 Q. When you were returned to the KP Dom that day --

19 A. Yes. Yes, they took us back there.

20 Q. -- were some of the group of 55 separated from each other?

21 A. When they took us back, we waited for a long time at Scepan

22 Polje. We didn't know what was going on. We were all afraid. When we

23 arrived at the KP Dom, everyone was surprised, including the guards. What

24 is this? They took us somewhere, to some room where we had something to

25 eat, and they took us all to Room 11. There were not enough beds because

Page 4577

1 of that transfer which preceded our departure, so we put beds together two

2 by two and we asked for some blankets. However, nothing came of it.

3 We stayed for only about half an hour. I stood by the door and I

4 was wondering whether they were going to give us those blankets. Then a

5 guard came and called out ten names. Those people picked up their things

6 and left. Then another half an hour later, another ten names were called

7 out, and the guard told these people to pick up their things and follow

8 him.

9 Where these people left, we have no clue. I never heard that any

10 one of them was ever heard of again. And I can give you some names, the

11 names I remember.

12 Q. What distinguished those 20 people from the 35 that were not

13 called out in that way?

14 A. I don't know. I don't know what was the reason. There was only

15 one elderly man among them. The rest of them were younger people.

16 Q. And of the 35 who were not called out, were those younger or older

17 men?

18 A. Well, most of them were elderly, frail people.

19 Q. If you remember the names --

20 A. Including myself.

21 Q. If you've remembered the names of those 20 who were called out and

22 you never heard from them again, could you please give them to us?

23 A. Well, if you allow me, I have it written on a piece of paper.

24 There are about 13 names. I cannot tell you who they are by heart.

25 There was Izet Causevic; he was an arts teacher. Asim Mujic, a

Page 4578

1 lawyer. He usually distributed food at the kitchen. Murat Granov,

2 Mezbur Rasim and his brother. Maja Blacevic, Nedzib Lojo, Ismet Pasovic

3 and his cousin nicknamed Pace, Ibro Ovcina.

4 Q. Witness --

5 A. I cannot remember all the names. It's been a long time. I have

6 it all written down. None of those people were ever seen or heard of

7 again, not that I know of.

8 Q. Witness, the piece of paper that you mentioned where you wrote

9 these names down, when did you write the names down?

10 A. When I left. In fact, when the 35 of us were taken out again, we

11 took the same road again, but first they took us back to Velecevo where

12 some sort of command was based. They took us there for some sort of

13 checkup, and then they took us along the same road to Montenegro, and then

14 we reached Podgorica which was earlier called Titograd, around 1.00 or

15 2.00. Around 5.00, we reached Rozaje. There were no papers given to us.

16 A guard just said, "You are free to go. There are other refugees here.

17 Do what you want." And the group of about 20 of us went to Murhamet, the

18 Muslim charity organisation, and the Red Cross. They couldn't admit us,

19 but they transferred us by bus to some sort of collection centre in

20 Krajcinovic Banja, and that's where we stayed.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, could you tell us, when did you write down the

22 names on that piece of paper? That was the question. How long after this

23 release did you write down those names on the piece of paper?

24 A. I wrote that down when I returned to Bosnia in 1995, and I had

25 already forgotten some names during -- by the time that I gave my

Page 4579

1 statements to investigators.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Did you write them down in 1995 at about the same

3 time that you spoke to the investigators?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, Ms. Kuo, I think we might come back

6 to that in the morning. I want to raise an issue about this motion that

7 we've received. Is this your matter or is it Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff's?

8 MS. KUO: I can handle it, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I just wanted to know whose it was, first of

10 all. Have you spoken to the Defence about it?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think I will handle it. I will handle it.

12 We have spoken about it, and it is not a problem. They received this

13 morning, they received the documents that we have on this witness, and we

14 do not have much. It's just the Bosnian statement and one little memo

15 about the telephone conversation. And as far as I understood, Mr. Bakrac,

16 they agree to have this person testify and have enough time to prepare for

17 the date that is proposed.

18 JUDGE HUNT: That is during the week of the 2nd of April. Is that

19 so, Mr. Bakrac?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.

21 However, the Defence suggested that we could hear the witness even this

22 week if the Office of the Prosecutor managed to bring him.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we'll see what the Prosecution can do. Have

24 you got any objection to the -- other than the usual objection, to the

25 protective measures sought?

Page 4580

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The usual objection

2 of this Defence stands.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then those protective measures will be granted,

6 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. I don't think we need to enter a formal order because

7 we've done it orally.


9 JUDGE HUNT: Now if you can bring the witness along, whenever you

10 can get the witness along.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Actually I was mistaken when I discussed the

12 matter with Mr. Bakrac. I thought this witness was actually coming

13 tomorrow, tomorrow evening, and he could be on the stand on Thursday. But

14 this witness is actually coming only on Wednesday evening, and of course,

15 we have to talk with him first because we do not want to hear his entire

16 story, but some very focussed matters.

17 JUDGE HUNT: We'd be very grateful?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And that's why we would like to have a

19 discussion with him first.

20 JUDGE HUNT: We would be very grateful if you could focus every

21 witness's evidence. Very well, we'll adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.01 p.m., to

23 be reconvened on Tuesday the 27th day of January,

24 2001, at 9.30 a.m.


Page 4581












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