Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5040

1 Wednesday, 4 April 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes Your Honour, this is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith.

10 MR. SMITH: Good morning Your Honours, good morning, Witness.

11 WITNESS: FWS-250 [Resumed]

12 Examined by Mr. Smith [Continued]:

13 Q. Witness, whilst you were at the KP Dom, did you ever see anyone

14 being beaten whilst you were inside the administration building?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And who was that?

17 A. I was cleaning the administration building, I saw Asim Mezbur and

18 Nurko.

19 Q. And who did you, in fact, see being beaten? You said you saw

20 Asim Mezbur and Nurko Nisic. Who was being beaten?

21 A. Nurko Nisic.

22 Q. And who was beating him?

23 A. The military police.

24 Q. Do you know where these military police were from?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 5041

1 Q. And about how many military police were beating him?

2 A. Three.

3 Q. And can you explain to the Court what they were doing, how they

4 were beating him?

5 A. They were kicking him, they were hitting him with their hands, in

6 order for him to recognise some names, which I couldn't make out because

7 my head was bowed as my colleague and I were cleaning something over there

8 at the command.

9 Q. Other than beating him with their hands, did they use anything

10 else to beat him?

11 A. I did not see.

12 Q. And which room or which place in the administration building was

13 he being beaten?

14 A. On the ground floor, in the room for searches.

15 Q. And where were you watching this from, this beating?

16 A. From the entrance into the building.

17 Q. You said that Asim Mezbur was present whilst Nurko was being

18 beaten. What was happening to him whilst Nurko was being beaten?

19 A. He stood quietly, facing the wall.

20 Q. Were there any guards present when Nurko was being beaten?

21 A. Yes, they were present towards their office, the guards office.

22 They were standing on a platform.

23 Q. About how many guards were there?

24 A. I'm not sure. Two or three were standing at that moment.

25 Q. Did you know the names of these guards?

Page 5042

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you continue to watch the beating through until it finished or

3 did you leave before that?

4 A. I was there for ten minutes and then one of the guards said that

5 we should be taken to the compound.

6 Q. Whilst the beating was going on, did the guards try to stop it?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And did the guards take you to the compound during the beating?

9 A. Yes. He opened the entrance door for me and I entered the

10 compound.

11 Q. Did you have to pass through the searching room to get into the

12 compound?

13 A. Yes. Half a metre away from them.

14 Q. Do you know why Nurko Nisic was being beaten on that day?

15 A. Allegedly these were the top people. Nurko was president of the

16 municipality; Asim Mezbur was in a prominent position at the SDA party.

17 Q. Are you sure of Nurko Nisic's position?

18 A. I'm not sure, but that's what people assumed. That's what people

19 talked about, that he was president of the municipality, the beginning of

20 1992.

21 MR. SMITH: I would just ask the usher if Prosecution Exhibit

22 6/1A, the plan of the administration building, be placed on the overhead.

23 Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, if you can look at the plan of the KP Dom which is on

25 your screen, it shows the ground floor of the administration building at

Page 5043

1 the bottom of the plan. Does that plan look familiar to you in terms of

2 the layout of the administration building?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you point out the room that you call the searching room in

5 which Nurko was being beaten?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If you could just use the silver pointer and place it on the

8 screen or the overhead projector that's to the right of you.

9 A. This is where the room is.

10 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicates the room that has

11 the entrance into the KP Dom compound.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


14 Q. Also on the map, could you indicate the place where you were when

15 you were watching this beating. You said it was near the entrance.

16 A. Yes. The entrance door leading into the searching room.

17 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicates the entrance to the

18 KP Dom administration building on the left-hand side.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


21 Q. From that entrance, could you see through to the searching room?

22 A. Yes, because I was three or four metres away. A door with bars

23 open.

24 Q. And was anyone with you when you were watching this beating, any

25 other detainee?

Page 5044

1 A. Yes, Mujo Dudic was there.

2 Q. And on the diagram, could you show where the guards were in

3 relation to the entrance?

4 A. On this platform here, by the door.

5 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicates the inside of the

6 entrance to the KP Dom, slightly to the left, near the steps.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Sorry, which steps? I didn't -- he moved it so

8 quickly I didn't see it.

9 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, just to the left of the entrance there's

10 some steps, I think about three steps.

11 JUDGE HUNT: What's being regarded as the reception room or the --

12 MR. SMITH: That's correct.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Thank you.

14 MR. SMITH: I just ask that the usher show the Witness the

15 following photograph, it's Prosecution Exhibit 18 and it's number 7446.

16 Q. Witness, looking at this photograph, is that familiar to you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what does that photograph show?

19 A. This photograph shows the lower iron door entering the compound,

20 the platform where three guards stood, and their office where the guards

21 were, the reception office.

22 JUDGE HUNT: You can see the steps actually, I had never noticed

23 that before.


25 Q. And these are the three guards that you mentioned were present

Page 5045

1 when the beating was occurring?

2 A. No. Three guards were on the platform while they were beaten by

3 the military police inside, in the searching room.

4 Q. And about how many metres from where Nurko was being beaten were

5 these guards, these three guards on the platform?

6 A. Well, about the same; three or four metres.

7 Q. Now, if I can ask that the usher show the witness the photograph

8 from P18, photograph 7469 and 7470.

9 Witness, looking at the top photograph, is this familiar to you?

10 A. The entrance door leading into the searching room.

11 Q. And where were you standing in relation to the photograph?

12 A. Right by the entrance into the searching room.

13 MR. SMITH: The witness indicates with the pointer at the bottom

14 middle of the photograph, just before the entrance to the searching room.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


17 Q. Witness, if you can now look at the photograph --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. SMITH: Sorry.

20 Q. If you can now look at the photograph 7470, is that familiar to

21 you, that photograph?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what does that show?

24 A. That is the searching room that we all had to pass through.

25 Q. And can you point in that photograph where Nurko Nisic was being

Page 5046

1 beaten on that day?

2 A. Yes. Nurko stood there and Asim Mezbur stood somewhere around

3 here. They were right next to one another.

4 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicates the left-hand side

5 of the photograph, in front of the water heater on the wall.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


8 Q. Which way was Nurko Nisic facing when he was being beaten? Was he

9 facing the wall or away from it?

10 A. Both were facing the wall and their hands were on the wall, by the

11 wall.

12 Q. When Nurko was being beaten, was he being beaten -- did he fall to

13 the ground or did he stay standing?

14 A. While I was present there, he was on his feet.

15 Q. And you mentioned that during the beating, a guard took you

16 through into the compound. Can you indicate the door on the photograph,

17 the lower photograph, that you were taken through?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. SMITH: Thank you. Your Honour, the witness indicates the

20 door with the arrow alongside of it.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

22 MR. SMITH: We are finished with those photographs, thank you.

23 Q. Witness, on the day that Nurko Nisic was being beaten in the

24 searching room, what room were you detained in, what room did you sleep in

25 at that time?

Page 5047












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5048

1 A. We were sleeping in Room 11.

2 Q. And what room was Nurko Nisic sleeping in at that time?

3 A. I am not sure which room he slept in, but Asim Mezbur slept in the

4 same room that I did.

5 Q. Did you ever hear sounds of Nurko Nisic being beaten on any other

6 occasion other than the day that you saw him being beaten?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Perhaps just going back to the day that he was beaten, about what

9 month and what year did that occur?

10 A. That was in 1992, mid-May, June. That's when all the beatings

11 took place.

12 Q. Now you said that you heard Nurko being beaten on another

13 occasion. When did that occur?

14 A. Yes. Later, after that, in the evening hours.

15 Q. And the beating that you actually saw of Nurko, was that in the

16 daytime hours or in the evening?

17 A. During the day; 12.00, 12.30, it was lunchtime.

18 Q. And when Nurko was being beaten during that daytime that you saw,

19 did you hear him say anything or scream or moan?

20 A. On that day, no.

21 Q. Did you hear Nurko Nisic being beaten on the same day that you saw

22 him being beaten, or was it on another day?

23 A. Another day.

24 Q. And about what month was that?

25 A. I think all of that was mid-May, June. All of that happened

Page 5049

1 then.

2 Q. And when you say that you heard him being beaten in the evening

3 hours, was it during the light or when it was dark?

4 A. This was in the early evening hours.

5 Q. On this other occasion that you heard Nurko Nisic being beaten,

6 where were you?

7 A. In Room 11.

8 Q. And where did you hear the sounds of Nurko Nisic being beaten

9 coming from?

10 A. We were in Room 11 then because people were taken out regularly.

11 That is to say that we were all by the window. That's when Nurko Nisic

12 was beaten, most probably, because one of the guards was yelling, "Get up,

13 Nurko, that's no way to defend Bosnia." He was losing consciousness. You

14 could hear buckets of water being thrown on him and we knew that it was

15 Nurko Nisic.

16 Q. Did you hear any sounds of beating coming from that place?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What did you hear?

19 A. Beating. His screams. Hitting buckets against the wall; most

20 probably they were pouring water.

21 Q. And how long did this beating go on for?

22 A. I cannot tell you exactly.

23 Q. After this particular beating, did you see Nurko Nisic again?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And where did the sounds of this beating come from? What

Page 5050

1 building, what floor?

2 A. The ground floor. We knew where Room 11 was, that is to say,

3 between the toilet and the staircase that went upstairs. The second or

4 third window, we were not sure which one out of those two.

5 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I just ask that the usher show the

6 witness Prosecution Exhibit 18 and photograph number 07474.

7 Q. Witness, the photograph that's on the screen is a photograph of

8 the administration building on the left-hand side, and the far left-hand

9 corner of the photograph is the corner of the administration building to

10 where the main entrance door to the administration building is located.

11 Is that building familiar to you?

12 A. Yes, very familiar.

13 Q. Can you show with the pointer on the photograph the window that

14 you heard the sounds of this beating coming from?

15 A. It's this window, behind the drainpipe.

16 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicates the fourth window

17 from the right on the ground floor of the administration building, just

18 immediately to the right of the drainpipe.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. I think you mean the first drainpipe. I

20 think that might be a second drainpipe at the end of the building.

21 MR. SMITH: That's correct. Your Honour, just to be clear, the

22 first full drainpipe that goes to the top of the building.

23 Q. Witness, whilst you were at the KP Dom, did you ever see dead

24 human bodies stranded in the Drina river?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5051

1 Q. And where did you see these bodies stranded in relation to the

2 front entrance of the KP Dom? Was it to the right or to the left in the

3 Drina River?

4 A. To the right down the KP Dom on the bank, on a little island that

5 was on the Drina.

6 Q. Is that on the Gorazde side of the bridge in front of the KP

7 Dom?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And about how far from the bridge did you see these bodies

10 stranded?

11 A. Well, approximately 50 to 100 metres.

12 Q. And on about how many occasions did you see bodies stranded in the

13 river?

14 A. I'm not sure; four or five times, at least, in the afternoon

15 hours, because the level of water goes down then and then this would

16 remain on the banks of the Drina.

17 Q. And how was it that you got to see these bodies in the Drina

18 River? You mentioned that you were detained at the KP Dom. How was it

19 that you were able to get out of the KP Dom and see these bodies?

20 A. The guard took me out. He would take four or five of us men out.

21 We would push them down the Drina and go back to the KP Dom.

22 Q. And did you do this on about four or five occasions?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Of those four or five occasions, in total, about how many bodies

25 did you push down the Drina River?

Page 5052

1 A. Three or four bodies, I said.

2 Q. And were these bodies men or women?

3 A. Men. There was also some cattle that was left there, so all of

4 this was flowing down the Drina.

5 Q. Were these men in civilian or military clothes; did you take any

6 notice?

7 A. Civilian.

8 Q. And were these men of varying ages or were they of one particular

9 age?

10 A. Older people, from the age of 50 onwards.

11 Q. About what time period did you see these bodies in the river? In

12 what months were you asked to go out and push them further into the river?

13 A. The month of May, the month of June.

14 Q. And which guard asked you to do this?

15 A. Burilo.

16 Q. And did he work at the KP Dom for the whole time that you were

17 there?

18 A. Yes. Otherwise, he was in charge of the work units, taking them

19 out. He was a guard.

20 Q. On the first occasion that you saw a human body in the Drina River

21 and you pushed it further into the river, what were you asked by Burilo,

22 what were you asked to do?

23 A. All that could be reached, we were supposed to push further down

24 the Drina. Before us, two or three men had got out. There were two cows

25 and one sheep on the bank, the same level as that islet in the river, and

Page 5053

1 we pushed them further away down the Drina.

2 Q. Before you left the KP Dom and were taken out towards the river,

3 were you told that you were, in fact, going to be doing that, pushing the

4 bodies down the river, or did you not know what you would be doing when

5 you got to the river?

6 A. I didn't know until I got outside, through the gate.

7 Q. Were you told by Burilo what you were going to do after you left

8 the gate, or was it only until you got to the river that you found out

9 what you had to do?

10 A. When we got out through the gate, he gave us some sticks or planks

11 and told us what we were supposed to do.

12 Q. And was this before you saw the first body in the river?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did Burilo tell you where these bodies had actually come from,

15 whether they were from the KP Dom or from some other place?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, are you going to ask whether he recognised

18 any of them?

19 MR. SMITH: I was just going to do that now, Your Honour.

20 Q. Did you recognise any of the bodies, any of the four or five that

21 you moved?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And how many other detainees were with you when you were asked to

24 push these bodies in the river on these occasions?

25 A. Well, there was a small unit which did the job all the time.

Page 5054

1 There was me, Mujo Dudic and Kelta Mandzo.

2 Q. And whilst you pushed these bodies further into the river, did

3 Burilo guard you whilst you did this?

4 A. Yes, there was Burilo and there were two guards on the bridge.

5 Q. And did you know the names of these two other guards?

6 A. No.

7 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would just ask that a map be placed

8 before the witness, it's Prosecution Exhibit 9/1.

9 Q. Witness, looking at this map, do you see the KP Dom in the centre

10 of it, with the number 7 alongside of it?

11 A. Yes, it's clear.

12 Q. Can you point on the map the location that you --

13 A. The KP Dom is this.

14 Q. Can you point on the map the location that these bodies were

15 stranded.

16 A. Yes. This small peninsula or, rather, islet here.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, do we know in the evidence which way the

18 river flows? I think we've had some evidence of this in a previous case,

19 but have we got it in this case?

20 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour; it flows upwards, up the left,

21 towards Gorazde, and you'll see a small arrow alongside the island where

22 the bodies were stranded, showing the direction of the river flowing.

23 JUDGE HUNT: You have better eyes than I have, I'm afraid

24 MR. SMITH: Only with these glasses, Your Honour.

25 We've finished with the map now.

Page 5055












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5056

1 Q. Did you ask anyone at the KP Dom, or Burilo in particular, as to

2 where these bodies had come from and why you had to do this?

3 A. No, I didn't dare nor was it allowed to talk to the guards.

4 Q. Witness, when you first arrived at the KP Dom, did you find out

5 who the warden was?

6 A. At the outset, no.

7 Q. And when did you first find out who the warden of the KP Dom was?

8 A. I learnt from civilian cooks who worked in the kitchen then, in

9 the same kitchen where I worked.

10 Q. And did they say who the warden was?

11 A. Yes. I was cleaning up tables at the time, Savo Todovic would

12 usually come to breakfast, together with the warden and Mitar Rasevic.

13 The three of them were usually come together. I worked in the canteen

14 then; cleaned up tables and did other work.

15 Q. And you said that the cooks, you learned from the cooks who the

16 warden was. Did they say anything to you as to who he was?

17 A. No. I was to learn who the warden was only later. I didn't know

18 it at the time.

19 Q. And when did you find out who the warden was later?

20 A. I found out when I worked on his house.

21 Q. And when did you work on Milorad Krnojelac's house?

22 A. I cannot remember the exact date. I think it was sometime in

23 November 1992.

24 Q. And who asked you to work on his house?

25 A. The guard who called me out and told me to get ready said I had to

Page 5057

1 go to the warden's house, the house of Mr. Krnojelac.

2 Q. And for about how many days did you work on his house?

3 A. I worked with intervals, not every day, that is, but on balance,

4 it was for about 10 days that I worked there.

5 Q. And when you worked on Krnojelac's house, were other detainees

6 working on it at the same time?

7 A. Yes. There were another 10 people who worked there and they

8 worked longer than I did.

9 Q. And if you look at the sheet in front of you, without saying the

10 person's name, did number 73, did he work on the house on some occasions

11 with you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And who were the other detainees, or some of the other detainees

14 that worked on the house whilst you were there?

15 A. Number 144 worked at that time, then Mustafa Telo, Aziz Telo,

16 there were other people as well whom I don't remember.

17 Q. On the days that you worked on the house, did the same people work

18 on it every day or did the people change?

19 A. Depending on the job required, but it was mostly the same people.

20 Q. And when you got to the house in November, had detainees been

21 working on the house prior to your first day of work there?

22 A. The people who worked before.

23 Q. And were they detainees?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And when you got to the house on the first day, what damage did

Page 5058

1 you notice had occurred to it?

2 A. That house was about 100 per cent devastated, burned down.

3 Q. Were the walls still standing on the house?

4 A. There was no roof, the entire roofing was destroyed. The walls

5 were half destroyed. The facade remained to some extent, remained

6 standing.

7 Q. And for the 10 days, the 10 or so days that you worked on the

8 house, what particular work did you do?

9 A. We were supposed to clean up, scrape off the old paint, and

10 prepare surfaces for cladding.

11 Q. And what hours did you work on the house? What time did you start

12 and what time did you finish?

13 A. We would go out sometime after breakfast, around 7.30 or 8.00, and

14 we would return just before dinner, around 5.00, 5.30.

15 Q. And how would you get to the house from the KP Dom; who would take

16 you there?

17 A. A Black Mariah would take us there from the KP Dom.

18 Q. And is that a type of car?

19 A. Yes. It was a closed vehicle, used for the transportation of

20 detainees, prisoners.

21 Q. And would you go with a guard from the KP Dom?

22 A. Yes, he would go with us up to the house.

23 Q. And would the guard, that particular guard, would he stay for the

24 entire day or would he return to the KP Dom?

25 A. Several times he did go back because we would be guarded by his

Page 5059

1 son who would be with us the whole day.

2 Q. And you mentioned "his son"; do you mean Milorad Krnojelac's son?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And do you know the first name of his son?

5 A. No. I know that he was the elder or the eldest but I don't

6 remember his name.

7 Q. And about how old was he?

8 A. He was around 30, 35 years old.

9 Q. And what would he wear? Would he be in civilian clothing or

10 military clothing?

11 A. He wore the military camouflage uniform. He would -- he appeared

12 in it several times.

13 Q. And did you eat whilst you were at the house?

14 A. Yes. They brought food, much better, much more nutritious food

15 than we had at the KP Dom.

16 Q. And who would cook the food or bring the food to you at the house?

17 A. His son brought it, his mother, and then the warden would also

18 come occasionally. He came several times to see us, to see how the -- our

19 work is progressing and to see whether any more material is needed.

20 Q. And when you mentioned the son's mother, do you mean Milorad

21 Krnojelac's wife?

22 A. Yes, Krnojelac's wife.

23 Q. And you mentioned that Milorad Krnojelac would come to the house

24 on several occasions. Of the 10 days, the 10 or so days that you worked

25 there, about how many times did he come?

Page 5060

1 A. I cannot tell you precisely, but in the evening hours, when we

2 would be returning, he would be with us in the compound.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the transcript says

4 that "he would be with us in the compound" whereas the witness actually

5 said he was with them at the house when they would be returning to the KP

6 Dom.

7 A. That's what I said. He would be waiting with us for the Black

8 Mariah which was supposed to take us to the KP Dom.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that clears it up, thank you. Perhaps I should

10 say this to the witness: Sir, everything that you are saying is being

11 translated into both English and French. The interpreters work about half

12 a sentence behind you. When you came in to explain that, for which we are

13 very grateful, you nevertheless interfered with the interpretation of what

14 Mr. Bakrac, the counsel for the Defence, had been telling us.

15 So please, whenever you are asked a question, do pause to enable

16 the interpreters to catch up.

17 Yes, Mr. Smith.

18 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

19 Q. Witness, you said that Mr. Krnojelac would come to the house to

20 see how the work was progressing and what material was needed. Can you

21 provide a few more details as to the types of things that he would ask the

22 detainees or inquire into in relation to the work on the house?

23 A. Is this question directed to me?

24 Q. That's correct. You mentioned that he would inquire about the

25 materials needed and the progress of the house. What type of inquiries

Page 5061

1 did he make?

2 A. At the moment while we were waiting for the Black Mariah, we would

3 be making a list of materials needed. Once the Black Mariah wasn't

4 coming for some time --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. The interpreter would like the

6 witness to start all over again, more slowly.


8 Q. Excuse me, Witness, perhaps if I can ask you that question again

9 because you are speaking fairly fast and the translators haven't been able

10 to translate it in time. So if I can ask you the question again: What

11 type of inquiries did he make in relation to the materials needed for the

12 house and the progress of the house?

13 A. He would ask us to give him a list of materials needed - how much

14 cement, how many bricks - so that it could be prepared for the next day so

15 that we could continue the work.

16 Q. Whilst Milorad Krnojelac was at the house, did you ever complain

17 to him or any of the other detainees about the conditions at the KP Dom

18 and concerns about your fate there?

19 A. No, because he knew, himself, what the situation at the KP Dom was

20 like. He couldn't help much.

21 Q. On one occasion, did Mr. Krnojelac ever state about what he was

22 trying to do for the detainees at the KP Dom?

23 A. Yes. On one occasion, we were waiting for the car to arrive to

24 pick us up, and we were talking, and he says, "I can't do much. I'm

25 trying to help you survive although many things are running out of my

Page 5062

1 control. The food is awful, I know that, but we don't get much better."

2 Q. Did he say anything along the lines of if it wasn't for him, you

3 all would have been killed?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a leading

5 question. The Prosecutor is putting things into the witness's mouth. The

6 Prosecutor asked the witness to say what Krnojelac said and now the

7 Prosecutor is asking a different question, practically saying to the

8 witness what he should answer.

9 We have the answer before this where the witness said precisely

10 what the accused had told him.

11 JUDGE HUNT: For once, Mr. Bakrac, I agree with you; it is a

12 leading question.

13 Yes, Mr. Smith, it's clearly leading. There's no suggestion that

14 the witness has said that earlier.

15 MR. SMITH: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I don't agree if what Mr. Bakrac was saying, that the

17 answer he'd given was intended to be a complete one of everything which

18 was said, but you can't put that to him. You'll have to ask him what was

19 said. The value of what he says now, unfortunately, will be somewhat

20 destroyed, but you'd better go ahead and do it properly.


22 Q. Witness, did the -- did Mr. Krnojelac say anything further about

23 how he was -- excuse me one moment, Your Honour.

24 Witness, you said that Mr. Krnojelac said he couldn't do much.

25 Did he explain any further as to why he couldn't do much for the detainees

Page 5063












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5064

1 at the KP Dom?

2 A. All the rest were orders from the command.

3 Q. And did he say who the command was?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And what prompted him to say this? Was a question asked of him by

6 the detainees?

7 A. Most probably it was some sort of conversation where this issue

8 came up.

9 Q. And in the conversation, did he state what his role was at the KP

10 Dom?

11 A. No, but we drew our own conclusions when he said, "As long as I am

12 warden, nothing will happen to you." We knew as soon as we heard that

13 what the situation was.

14 Q. And when Milorad Krnojelac was at the house on the number of

15 occasions that you mentioned, how did he treat the detainees there

16 generally?

17 A. He was good. He acted naturally.

18 Q. And on every occasion that you were taken to Krnojelac's house,

19 did you always go in the same vehicle?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What other vehicle would you go in?

22 A. The first time I went, I went after this work unit on another

23 job. I was driven by the warden in a car.

24 Q. And when you were driven by the warden, did you have any

25 conversation with him on the way?

Page 5065

1 A. No. I never got involved in conversations.

2 Q. And why were you driven by Mr. Krnojelac on that day?

3 A. Because I had left the KP Dom on a special job, a separate job.

4 It was not particularly difficult, but it needed to be done. And it was

5 also on the house.

6 Q. Did you get paid for working on Mr. Krnojelac's house?

7 A. No.

8 Q. When did you finish working on his house; about what month?

9 A. I can't tell you exactly. I was there for about 10 days. Other

10 people remained there for two months.

11 Q. And just going back to when Mr. Krnojelac said to you, "As long as

12 I am the warden, nothing will happen to you," and you said when he said

13 that, you knew what the situation was. What was the situation? What did

14 you understand that to be?

15 A. Well, it was the state of war, I knew what my position was. I

16 knew why I was there. The food was awful. Everybody was just trying to

17 stay alive. So I worked, and I wasn't choosey. I wanted to get out just

18 in order to get some more and better food.

19 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, did anyone attempt to escape?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And who was that?

22 A. It was Muhamed Zekovic.

23 Q. Are you sure that's the person's first name?

24 A. We called him Zeka. We often used nicknames, so it is very, very

25 hard for me to remember his first name. We called him Zeka.

Page 5066

1 Q. And do you remember when he attempted to escape; in what year?

2 A. 1993, July, beginning of August. I'm not sure about the dates.

3 Q. And was he caught and brought back to the KP Dom?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. After he attempted to escape, were you ever warned about escaping

6 or making any further attempts to escape, any of the detainees?

7 A. Yes. That is to say, that morning, we were lined up in the

8 compound. They brought Zeka and we were deprived of meals and we were

9 forbidden to work for the next 12 or 13 days. That is to say, I did not

10 have any lunch, and I did not have any dinner. Meals were halved, at

11 least, during those 10 days while I was in the room.

12 Q. And you said that your --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.


15 Q. And you said that when you were lined up and you were warned, who

16 warned you?

17 A. I can't tell you exactly. Savo Todovic was there, Rasevic and the

18 warden. They brought him into the compound.

19 Q. After the --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


22 Q. After the attempted escape of Zekovic, did the wardens change at

23 KP Dom?

24 A. I was not sure then yet.

25 Q. At some time after the escape, did the wardens change?

Page 5067

1 A. Most probably, yes, because that's when the conditions started

2 getting better.

3 Q. And when you left the KP Dom in October 1994, there was a new

4 warden at that stage; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. And what was his name?

7 A. Zoran. I don't know his last name.

8 Q. And you mentioned that the conditions started to get better after

9 the wardens changed; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And in what way did the conditions get better? Say, perhaps, in

12 relation to the food first.

13 A. I had somewhat better food, of better quality. The bed linen was

14 changed every 10 days. I could take a bath every 10 or 15 days. To put

15 it simply, our life was quite different. People were not taken away. We

16 were not beaten. We were registered with the International Red Cross, so

17 the conditions were very good, compared to 1992. We called 1994 our

18 golden year in comparison to 1992.

19 Q. When the wardens changed at the KP Dom, was there more freedom of

20 movement within the compound?

21 A. Yes. There was a work unit that went out. There were people who

22 were in rooms then, and they could move about the compound, the yard,

23 they could take a walk.

24 Q. And what about the behaviour of the guards? Did that stay the

25 same, did that improve, or get worse?

Page 5068

1 A. There was an abrupt change. We could not believe it ourselves.

2 We could not believe what was going on. The guards were much softer. You

3 could talk. You could reach agreement with them. We worked together so

4 life became more bearable.

5 Q. You said that after the warden changed, the bed linen was changed

6 every 10 days. When Krnojelac was the warden, how often was the linen

7 changed on the beds?

8 A. I can't remember. In 1992, I doubt that the bed linen was ever

9 changed until the end of 1992.

10 Q. And in 1992, how often were you able to take a bath, wash, or

11 shower?

12 A. Not once.

13 Q. And during that 1992 period, were detainees able to move about

14 their rooms -- sorry, move about the compound of the KP Dom, outside of

15 their rooms?

16 A. No, no way. We didn't dare go to the window, let alone take a

17 walk, except for the work units that went out.

18 Q. And before you arrived at the KP Dom, did you know Mr. Krnojelac,

19 the person that you said was warden?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And how did you know him?

22 A. I knew him because he was a teacher of mathematics in the Veselin

23 Maslesa school.

24 Q. And other than the times that you saw Mr. Krnojelac in the canteen

25 and whilst you were working on his house, did you see him in the compound

Page 5069

1 during 1992 and 1993?

2 A. I would see him in the compound. I would see him outside the

3 compound. Usually he'd be at the entrance. Because I was passing to the

4 metal shop so I would see him there.

5 Q. And who would you see him with? Would you see him with anyone

6 else during this time?

7 A. Usually there was Savo Todovic, Mitar Rasevic and Krnojelac who

8 were together.

9 Q. And how often would you see Mr. Krnojelac with either one or two

10 of these people?

11 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly. A few times.

12 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac have a secretary whilst he was at the KP Dom?

13 A. I don't know about that.

14 MR. SMITH: Excuse me one moment, Your Honour.

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]


17 Q. Witness, what date were you released from the KP Dom?

18 A. On the 6th of October 1994.

19 Q. And for the two and a half years that you were at the KP Dom, did

20 that affect you in any way psychologically?

21 A. It took me back a lot. I lost a lot in terms of my life. My

22 psyche is -- I was imprisoned for two and a half years and I didn't share

23 much. I kept so many things within and therefore I did not really

24 communicate with the warden or Savo Todovic, only officially if it had

25 to do with business. That's all the talking I did.

Page 5070

1 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Mr. Bakrac.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

4 MR. BAKRAC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much.

5 Q. Sir, my name is Mihajlo Bakrac, attorney-at-law. I'm one of the

6 Defence counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac and I shall put a few

7 questions to you now. I would kindly ask you to wait - the presiding

8 Judge has already told you about this - for me to put my question, and

9 then a short time is needed for it to be interpreted, and then you can

10 give your answer. So please do not answer right after I put my question.

11 Sir, do you know a person called Salem Bico?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did Salem Bico take part in the fighting in Foca?

14 A. I'm not aware of that.

15 Q. When you got out of the KP Dom, did you give a statement to the

16 security centre in Sarajevo on the 8th of October 1994?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is Salem Bico from Gornje Polje?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you still claim that you do not know whether Salem Bico took

21 part in the fighting in Foca?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it correct that in the statement that you gave to the security

24 centre in Sarajevo, that you heard a conversation that the Chetniks, as

25 you called them, were carrying on and they were informing their command

Page 5071












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5072

1 that they could not take Gornje Polje because it was being defended by

2 Salem Bico?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You didn't say that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Would it help you if I would show you the signature on that

7 statement? Could you tell me whether it's yours?

8 A. Yes, but many things are correct and incorrect because I gave

9 these statements so unwillingly. Either with somebody's help or whatever,

10 at any rate, it was -- what I'm saying now is the truth and this is

11 exactly the way things happened.

12 Q. What I asked you just now, what I said, you said that you stated

13 that unwillingly or did you not say that at all or did somebody else help

14 you to say something like that? What is true out of all of this?

15 A. It is possible that I don't remember things correctly. That is to

16 say this was two days after I was released. I was so distraught. I

17 cannot tell you exactly what was going on.

18 Q. Since your memory is probably better now, could you tell me, then,

19 whether you did not know about this now and you did know about it two days

20 after you got out of the KP Dom?

21 A. This situation is not familiar to me because, at that time, I did

22 not know a great many people. I was not a member of any unit. I worked a

23 lot. I did not know about such things at all in relation to questions

24 concerning the SDA party and who did what.

25 Q. Let's clarify this. Are you saying that this is not your

Page 5073

1 statement or are you saying that this is your statement, but that this was

2 written by somebody else or that somebody else told you to say this?

3 Let's just clarify this, please, just briefly.

4 A. As for the statement, I refuse this. I did not know many things.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, before you proceed, could you tell me

6 what this is relevant to?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, certain persons are

8 mentioned in the case of other witnesses, persons who are treated as

9 civilians in this trial, and then we get this information that they are

10 soldiers. That is the reason.

11 JUDGE HUNT: You're not just cross-examining him because he said

12 something now which is inconsistent with his statement then. It's not a

13 matter going to credit ?

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a statement that

15 was given to us, and that is something that the witness started talking

16 about, and then the KP Dom was moved on to immediately. That's the

17 reason.

18 JUDGE HUNT: You say he gave some evidence about this man in his

19 evidence-in-chief?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, he did not mention

21 that during the examination-in-chief, but that is within the framework of

22 the statement that he had made earlier.

23 JUDGE HUNT: We're not concerned with the statement he made

24 earlier. If you think that his idea of what Mr. Bico did is relevant to

25 your case in some way, you are entitled to cross-examine him on it, but if

Page 5074

1 you want to go to his statement just to try to get him into conflict with

2 what he said in his statement then say we shouldn't believe his evidence

3 generally, you are treading on very irrelevant material. It really

4 doesn't help us. If you can get him into conflict in some way with the

5 evidence he has told us of, certainly, but if you want to prove something

6 to support your case, you are entitled to do it. And if he doesn't come

7 up to what he says in his statement, you may point out that he did say

8 that in his statement. That's all right. But it's got to be relevant in

9 some way to your case and not to his credit. Do you see the distinction?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but with due

11 respect, the Defence believes that the credibility of this witness could

12 be challenged if he is evading questions and giving different answers,

13 that which does not work in favour of the Prosecution and the

14 indictment. That is why this Defence counsel, in his modest opinion,

15 believes that there are things he has said that he is denying now and that

16 is what we wished to ascertain in the case of this witness.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Your claim of modesty is rejected, Mr. Bakrac. But

18 quite apart from that, we are not concerned with terribly peripheral

19 issues of inconsistencies between evidence and what was in his statement.

20 Now, that is something I have said all along in this trial. If the

21 material that is in his statement supports -- and which has not been

22 brought up in his evidence-in-chief, nevertheless supports your case, you

23 are entitled to have him agree that that is what he said. And if he does

24 not agree that that is what he has said, you are entitled to investigate

25 how it came to be said in the statement. But it is important that the

Page 5075

1 issue to which you go in his statement is something which supports your

2 case.

3 Now, you've told us that this is to demonstrate that Mr. Bico was

4 not a civilian. And if that is so, and Mr. Bico has been referred to by

5 the witnesses as a civilian, then you are entitled to go into it. But

6 please don't go trawling through his statements just to find out something

7 that you could ask him about and then get him into conflict with what he

8 said in his statement and then say to us we shouldn't believe his

9 evidence, because that is something so peripheral to anything that we have

10 to determine in this case that we have had too much time spent on it

11 already.

12 Now, if we understand each other on that, I'll let you have your

13 head, modestly or otherwise.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was reprimanded during

15 my very first question, and believe me, there are two or three questions

16 only related to this statement. Please bear in mind that this witness was

17 found last week, practically, that we did not have any information about

18 him whatsoever. In order to speed up the trial, we were ready to hear him

19 immediately, to cross-examine him, and every detail that we have in order

20 to check his credibility is significant for the Defence.

21 Those are the reasons why I wanted to raise certain issues with

22 him, but believe me, with all due respect, please do not be afraid of

23 this. This is only two -- one of the two or three questions we have in

24 relation to the statement he made to the security centre earlier on, not

25 more than that.

Page 5076

1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, we are very grateful to you for having

2 cooperated in the way you did, and we will allow you some latitude. A

3 rather seductive appeal of there being only two or three questions

4 suggests that we should let you have your head because it will save time,

5 but do, please, exercise a little bit of restraint as to the extent to

6 which you go into this particular matter.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Sir, let's clarify this: You never said this or did you say it?

9 A. No, I did not say it.

10 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, if I can just -- sorry to interrupt the

11 proceedings here, but perhaps if the particular section of the statement

12 be put to him as to what he did say and what he didn't say. It hasn't

13 been put to him at this stage so it's unclear as to what this witness

14 would be actually agreeing to or not. In fact, the witness has said that

15 he doesn't know that Salem Bico was defending the area but the statement

16 refers to the fact that he heard over the radio that Salem Bico may have

17 been.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's fair. If you want to challenge

19 something in his statement, you are under an obligation to put to him what

20 it is he has signed.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all of this was done in

22 order to speed matters up, so I'm going to read only one sentence which is

23 in context. This is on page 2 of his statement in the B/C/S version. It

24 is the second line on this page. "At that moment, I heard that Chetniks

25 were conversing via radio from Gornje Polje and saying that they -- to the

Page 5077

1 command that they could not take Gornje Polje because it is being defended

2 by Salem Bico."

3 A. No, I don't remember that. I did sign this but I do not remember

4 this. You have to understand me; I came there distraught, in terrible

5 shape. Maybe many things were added to what I was supposed to sign and I

6 didn't know what I was signing.

7 Q. Thank you, sir, we are going to move on.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this would be a

9 good moment to take a break. From this corner, it seems to be 11.00, to

10 me. I mean the way I see the clock to seems to be exactly 11 .00.

11 JUDGE HUNT: It seems we are in a very small courtroom, and you

12 have a poor angle of vision, but we'll take the break even though it may

13 be minute and a half early.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.29 a.m.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. You talked, sir, about some people in the KP Dom whom you had

19 seen, Muslims, the prisoners. Do you know Haso Selimovic, also known as

20 Spona?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know whether he was beaten before he arrived at the KP Dom?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where was he beaten?

25 A. At the warehouse at Livade.

Page 5078

1 Q. Was he brought to the KP Dom already beaten up?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know Nail Hodzic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever hear that this person had been taken out of the KP

8 Dom?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you see him at the KP Dom?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When was he taken away from the KP Dom?

13 A. I can't tell you exactly because they were taken in groups. I

14 cannot tell you the date when he was taken away. He was taken away for an

15 exchange but when, I don't know.

16 Q. Do you know the group which was called plum pickers which was

17 taken away for an exchange?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know the name of Muhidin Bibovic?

20 A. Yes, but he didn't leave with that group of plum pickers. He left

21 to be exchanged much earlier.

22 Q. Did you hear that he was alive in America?

23 A. Yes. He is in Germany, in Munich.

24 Q. Sir, I will now come back to the statement you gave to the

25 security centre of Sarajevo. I will read from page 4 very slowly.

Page 5079












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5080

1 "Around the 20th August 1992, a group of 12 people went for an exchange

2 to Gorazde. However, the exchange did not take place. Today, on the 17th

3 of September 1992, a group of prisoners left allegedly to pick plums. We

4 later called them plum pickers. This group never returned. It seems to

5 me that Muhidin Bibovic was in that group, and I heard that he had

6 allegedly been heard from the States."

7 Now, you are claiming that Muhidin Bibovic had not been in that

8 group, and in 1994, just after your release from the KP Dom, you said that

9 he was in that group and that he had been heard from America?

10 A. Muhidin Bibovic did not go to pick plums because he left from the

11 mechanic's shop sometime in August 1992. For an exchange from my room,

12 Rasim Kajgana was the only one who was in the group of plum pickers. I

13 know about him because he was in charge of our room. And as for Muhidin

14 Bibovic, I maintain that he left from the mechanic's shop because he

15 worked there as a locksmith and that's his regular occupation, and he

16 didn't go to pick plums because he is alive and he is in Munich today.

17 Q. You say he didn't go to pick plums because he is alive and he is

18 in Germany. Is that your prejudice that anyone who left to pick plums is

19 no longer alive?

20 A. No. Muhidin Bibovic did not go to pick plums. Maybe errors were

21 made in the statements given.

22 Q. Do you mean to say that now, after 10 years, your memory is better

23 than in 1994 just two years after the events?

24 A. I know exactly how things happened at the time, and I'm not sure

25 that I made this statement that way, but I do know that I signed it.

Page 5081

1 Q. Sir, while we are discussing your memory, I will now ask you:

2 Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief, you said that when you brought

3 in a radio into the KP Dom, Burilo came into your Room 16 and took

4 you outside the isolation cell, beat you up, and threw you into the

5 isolation cell; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it also true that just four days earlier, on Thursday and

8 Friday, you talked with investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor

9 about the subject of your testimony?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it true that you told the investigators of the OTP that the

12 guard, Burilo, in this incident with the radio, took you to Savo Todovic

13 who told you that it was not allowed to bring a radio into the KP Dom?

14 A. No. Because he took away the radio from me, he beat me up, and

15 then he told me what rules existed in the KP Dom. I was not taken to Savo

16 Todovic at that time.

17 Q. So it's not true that you said this to the investigators of the

18 OTP, the persons with whom you talked four days ago. I will read out to

19 you now the information we have about what you have said. That you were

20 taken by Burilo to Savo Todovic who told you that it was not allowed to

21 possess a radio at the KP Dom. And then, taking you away from Savo

22 Todovic, Burilo brought you to the cell.

23 So this information conveyed to us is not true, is it?

24 A. It may be an error, but I was not taken -- that was outside Room

25 16 where I was. The isolation cell is on the right-hand side from that

Page 5082

1 room, and everything happened in that hallway.

2 Q. I'm asking you: Did you say first that you went to Savo Todovic

3 and that Savo Todovic told you it was forbidden and then Burilo took you

4 away? I didn't ask you where the rooms were and where the isolation cells

5 were.

6 A. I wasn't taken anywhere outside the corridor outside my room, and

7 that's where Burilo took away the radio.

8 Q. And it's not true that you saw Savo Todovic on that occasion and

9 that he told you it was forbidden to own a radio?

10 A. No, not at that time.

11 Q. We will stick to the subject of your memory, sir. You said during

12 your examination-in-chief that you never spoke to Juso Dzamalija and you

13 don't know why he was beaten. In the statement you gave to the

14 Prosecutor's office, at least according to the information that we have,

15 you said that Juso Dzamalija had been beaten because his son had been

16 commander of the military police.

17 A. His son was not a commander of the military police. He was the

18 commander of the civilian police force, meaning before the war.

19 Q. Why didn't you tell us that yesterday during your

20 examination-in-chief? So you did say this to the Office of the

21 Prosecutor?

22 A. Maybe we didn't understand each other well. His son had been a

23 police commander before the war. It was called militia then and it's

24 called the police now.

25 Q. You also said yesterday, regarding this incident, that you don't

Page 5083

1 know what kind of car drove into the compound. Is it true that you told

2 the investigators of the Prosecutor's office that it was a car of the

3 military police which entered the compound, or isn't that correct?

4 A. I was locked up inside which means I don't know whether it was a

5 civilian vehicle or it was a military police vehicle. I didn't know where

6 that car in the compound -- to whom it belonged because nothing was

7 written on it.

8 Q. Is it true that you said this just four days ago to the

9 investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor, and now you are not sure

10 you really know what is actually true? Is it true that you told the

11 investigators of the OTP that you knew what the vehicle was?

12 A. I can't remember about the car. I was very frightened. It all

13 happened very quickly. And I don't know where it went. All I know that

14 three of us were there loading something, I don't know.

15 Q. You say you can't remember. You mean you can't remember what

16 happened four days ago? You were frightened. Are you frightened now?

17 A. Well, the very thought of the KP Dom makes me frightened. Here in

18 the Court, I'm okay, but if I go back to that in my mind, I can't remember

19 that car, whether it was a civilian vehicle or a police vehicle. I don't

20 know what kind of car it was that took him away.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, you are coming in before the end of the

22 interpretation.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I

24 always have this complex that I am slowing down the proceedings and that's

25 possibly why I am making this mistake.

Page 5084

1 Q. Sir, please tell me precisely, loud and clear, did you tell

2 investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor, or whoever it was you

3 talked to, that you know to whom the vehicle belonged, or didn't you say

4 this at all?

5 A. I don't know to whom the vehicle belonged.

6 Q. You didn't answer my question. I'm not asking you whether you

7 know to whom the vehicle belonged. I'm asking you: Do you remember

8 saying this to the Office of the Prosecutor or you never said it at all?

9 A. I said that a car drove in because we just took him out of the

10 isolation cell and down the stairs.

11 Q. Are you trying to misunderstand me or what? I'm asking you: Did

12 you, four days ago, speaking to investigators of the OTP, say that it was

13 a military vehicle? I'm not asking you now whether it was really a

14 military vehicle or not. I'm asking you did you say this to the

15 Prosecution?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. That was my question.

18 I am still on the subject of your memory. Did you tell the Office

19 of the Prosecutor four days ago that between the first incident and your

20 incarceration in the isolation cell and the second incident and your

21 incarceration in the isolation cell, there was a gap of two weeks? You

22 told us here it was a month. Compared to the statement you gave four days

23 ago, it is a discrepancy.

24 A. Yes. I don't remember about the timing because it was a period

25 where we didn't even know what the day of the week was, and we didn't

Page 5085

1 measure intervals. Everything I talked about happened from May to the

2 beginning of October. About all of these things that happened, we don't

3 remember exact dates.

4 Q. I'm asking you, did you tell the Office of the Prosecutor that

5 between those two incidents and your incarceration in the cell, there was

6 an interval of two weeks?

7 A. I'm repeating that the interval could have been two weeks or a

8 month. I cannot claim anything to a day because I don't know, myself, how

9 much time passed.

10 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, if I could just interject here. This

11 meeting with the witness is not recorded in the statement format, it is

12 recorded in notes, and this is a summary of the notes that were provided

13 to Defence counsel. He stated -- in those notes, it's recorded that

14 the time difference between the two beatings was "about two weeks," and I

15 think in his testimony he said "about a month," so it's not in absolute

16 terms.

17 JUDGE HUNT: I would have thought that there wasn't very much

18 importance in this anyway, but it shows the problem of having notes

19 instead of a statement.

20 You proceed, Mr. Bakrac. I hope you've got a better one than

21 that.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't see any more,

23 but what we have, I, of course, wish we could have that material. But we

24 are hearing a witness here who is supposed to remember what happened nine

25 years ago. I believe that this is a good way of determining his

Page 5086

1 credibility, that is, to what extent he is able to remember things, to

2 what extent he wishes to remember things. So I will continue trying to

3 clear up these details.

4 Q. So about this second incident, you don't know which of the guards

5 beat you; is that true?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Is it true that you don't know who beat you or is it true that you

8 don't know who beat you [as interpreted]?

9 A. Because I don't know the names of the guards. We all call them by

10 nicknames, I don't know their real names, and that's why I'm not

11 mentioning them.

12 Q. Did you say to the Office of the Prosecutor that regarding that

13 second incident when you took two meals at supper, the guard was Maric,

14 also known as Mara, and that you were beat up with two soldiers wearing

15 insignia RS which is supposed to mean the Republika Srpska and --

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is sorry, we didn't hear the

17 last part of the question.

18 A. I don't know who beat us and I'm not using real names for that

19 reason. I know about the nickname Mara and I don't know the man's real

20 name. It's true that two soldiers beat me, wearing a big emblem RS which

21 is the sign of Republika Srpska.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, the interpreters did not get the whole of

23 your previous question. Are you able to see it in the transcript there or

24 would you like me to read it to you and have it translated?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I'll clear this up

Page 5087












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5088

1 through questions, through my next question.

2 Q. Did that guard Mara beat you or didn't he?

3 A. Yes, at the entrance to the isolation cell.

4 Q. Were you also beaten by two soldiers wearing Republika Srpska

5 signs on their uniforms?

6 A. Yes, because they were there in the compound.

7 Q. And now, please explain to me, you just said that Maric beat you.

8 In your statement which you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, you said

9 that Maric was present, you also said that Maric had tried to intervene,

10 telling soldiers to stop beating you, but he did not intercede in any

11 physical way.

12 Did you forget over those four days or is it on purpose that you

13 are telling a different story now?

14 A. I'm not telling a different story. I'm saying what really

15 happened, what actually happened. He tried to defend me and got up and

16 kicked me.

17 Q. He tried to defend you and then he got up and kicked you too.

18 That's not what you said to the Prosecutor. You said he didn't get

19 involved physically. You said he told them to stop beating you, just

20 verbally defending you, that's what you said four days ago to the Office

21 of the Prosecutor.

22 A. Yes, that's true, but while we were going into the isolation cell,

23 he beat me too and he said, "I hadn't beaten you then."

24 Q. While he was putting you into the isolation cell, you said he

25 kicked you and he said, "It wasn't me."

Page 5089

1 A. Yes, that was the usual provocation of prisoners in isolation

2 cells.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, I remind you, please wait before you answer, you

4 came in well on top of the interpreters there and it was very difficult

5 for them. Do you have the transcript coming up on the screen before you

6 there? You have on your screen now the transcript as it's being typed.

7 If you could, when you have been asked a question, wait until you see

8 the typing stop, that means the interpretation is finished and you will be

9 free to answer the question.

10 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Why didn't you say this four days ago to the Office of the

13 Prosecutor what you're telling us now?

14 A. If I told all about all that happened, it would take me months.

15 I'm speaking very briefly and that's why I'm omitting things. I'm trying,

16 therefore, to say -- to describe the most tragic things. I cannot

17 describe every blow, otherwise it would take a very long time.

18 Q. You were asked specifically who beat you on that occasion and who

19 hit you specifically in that one and only incident.

20 A. I'm saying it was the military police who beat me. I was

21 beaten by Maric while he was unlocking the isolation cell and putting me

22 inside. He beat me and Jasmin Sudar. We were all covered with blood

23 inside the isolation cell.

24 Q. You now say Maric, you know it's Maric, and yesterday you said you

25 didn't know who the guard was.

Page 5090

1 A. I know very well who the guards were. I don't know their names

2 that's why I'm not even trying to tell their names. I know their

3 nicknames, Mara, Predo, Busi, I don't know their full names, that's why

4 I'm not telling you who the guards were by name. I don't know their names

5 just as nobody there knew my real name, my full name. They all knew me by

6 (redacted) .

7 Q. Your Honour, I believe the witness inadvertently identified

8 himself. Perhaps we should redact this.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Sir, I'm trying to protect you through my questions and you have

12 to be careful too because you've asked for protective measures. So you

13 are not sure that it was Maric or you're not sure because you don't know

14 what his name was?

15 A. I am sure, because his nickname was Mara and I knew Mara even

16 before the war.

17 Q. You mean that before the war, you also knew that his name was

18 Maric?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You knew his name was Maric even before the war and you knew his

21 nickname was Mara, and yesterday you told us that you didn't want to

22 mention the name of the guards because you didn't know them.

23 A. I maintain with full responsibility that I don't know his full

24 name and surname even today. I know him as Mara and that is true to

25 this day.

Page 5091

1 Q. Do you understand, sir, that you are saying one thing now and a

2 second ago you said a different thing? You said you didn't know his

3 name, to this day you don't know it, and now you say you know it and you

4 knew it before the war.

5 A. We knew him as Mara. We knew others as Predo and Busi. We

6 didn't know the names, the real names of any of the guards.

7 Q. Thank you, this is clear. Will you please tell us about the

8 incident related to Nurko Nisic, the first one in the so-called searching

9 room. How long did the whole thing last, this beating of Nurko Nisic in

10 that room for searches?

11 A. I cannot tell you exactly. I was waiting for perhaps five or

12 ten minutes before the guards threw me out into the compound. Nurko

13 stayed behind.

14 Q. When you entered the compound, did the beating of Nurko Nisic

15 stop?

16 A. I don't know because I was no longer there and I don't know what

17 happened from then on.

18 Q. Is it true that you told the investigators of the Office of the

19 Prosecutors, that is the person from the Prosecution office to whom you

20 talked, that the beating lasted about ten minutes and that you were thrown

21 out into the compound when the beating had stopped?

22 A. Yes. I was there for about five or ten minutes, then I entered

23 the compound, which means I don't know whether the beating stopped then

24 because I was no longer there.

25 Q. Did you tell the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor

Page 5092

1 that you were pushed into the compound after the beating had stopped?

2 A. I can't say that. I was thrown in and I don't know what happened

3 after that. At that moment, the guard took the two of us, we passed the

4 two of them who -- and were thrown into the yard.

5 Q. During the first interview you had with the investigators of the

6 OTP over the telephone, did you mention that Atif Jasarevic was present

7 there and 16 other prisoners?

8 A. Yes these are people who were taken away, who we saw being taken

9 away and returned.

10 Q. Were you present when Nurko Nisic was beaten?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Defence counsel asked,

12 "Were they present when Nurko Nisic was beaten?"

13 A. No.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. During the first interview you had with the investigators of the

16 OTP, did you say that Jasarevic was present there with 16 other

17 persons, present during the beating of Nurko Nisic?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Which room were you in when Nurko Nisic was beaten on this

20 occasion?

21 A. I was in Room 11.

22 Q. When was that; can you remember?

23 A. That was mid-May, the month of June.

24 Q. You talked to us about an incident concerning a radio. How did

25 you get the radio into the KP Dom?

Page 5093

1 A. I worked at the hospital with a few other detainees. I got it

2 from a friend who was lying in hospital.

3 Q. How big was this radio?

4 A. It was a small radio that could fit into your pocket.

5 Q. Were you searched at the entrance into the KP Dom?

6 A. Yes. My blouse was over my back. I put it on the table for

7 searches and they didn't look at it.

8 Q. When you went in and out of the KP Dom, did they register your

9 name somewhere; did they write it down?

10 A. No, because a guard went with us and took us back.

11 Q. So he did not register your name anywhere. When you left and when

12 you came back, he didn't enter anything into a book or something?

13 A. I don't know whether such books were kept. As for that, I don't

14 know whether there was something like that further on in the command.

15 Q. Where the command -- where was this command?

16 A. The reception hall where they took us from.

17 Q. You said when your radio was taken away from you, you said during

18 the examination-in-chief that Burilo said to you that there's no more TV,

19 no more radio, newspapers, et cetera. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes. Yes, I was deprived of all liberty.

21 Q. When was this; in which month?

22 A. All of this happened mid-May, June. That's when it all happened.

23 Q. 1992?

24 A. Yes, 1992.

25 Q. Did I understand you correctly, you said that you were the only

Page 5094

1 one who was deprived of radio, TV and newspapers from then onwards?

2 A. No, it was clear to all of us that we were deprived of all

3 possible human rights.

4 Q. You said and you repeated just now that the beatings occurred in

5 mid-May and June. What happened after June 1992?

6 A. All the beatings that took place -- the KP Dom was established on

7 the 17th of April. That evening, I came to the KP Dom. From then

8 onwards, until the 1st of October 1992, that's this period of beatings,

9 taking people out and we didn't know where people were being taken to.

10 Q. I'm just talking about beatings. Did you say that there weren't

11 any more beatings after mid-May and June 1992?

12 A. Yes, but less. That is to say that all the beatings that took

13 place took place in May, June, July.

14 Q. You said July now too. What about after July? Were there any

15 beatings and specifically what did you see or hear in terms of that?

16 A. Will the Court allow me to disassociate myself from dates? The

17 15th of April, when I was detained in Livade, until the 1st of October,

18 dates of beatings and of taking people away and bringing them back, so I

19 cannot stick only to May and June and to say that that happened only

20 then. I know exactly that there were people taken out and brought back

21 and beaten during those months.

22 Q. Yesterday, in the examination-in-chief, you said it was May and

23 June when these beatings occurred.

24 MR. SMITH: Your Honour --

25 A. Yes, in the case of individual persons.

Page 5095












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5096

1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

2 MR. SMITH: I think in his examination-in-chief he also said that

3 beatings occurred up to the 1st of October, in his examination-in-chief.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Have you got the page?

5 MR. SMITH: I don't have it on me at the moment but he may have

6 said it a couple of times in his examination.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Do you think you are getting very far with this

8 particular point, Mr. Bakrac? You can't really pin him down to dates. I

9 agree that there can be a very wide variation between something which

10 might have happened one month or ten months later, but I don't think that

11 the witness can be expected to remember very precisely this sort of thing.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I agree. I am

13 satisfied with this answer and I do not intend to ask the witness any

14 further about this particular matter.

15 Q. Yesterday, you were asked whether the persons who were with you

16 the first time in the isolation cell got any medical treatment from a

17 doctor. Did you seek that from anyone?

18 A. Yes, but nobody allowed us that.

19 Q. Who did you ask for medical care?

20 A. We could only ask the guards who, then, took people to lunch and

21 brought them back.

22 Q. I'm asking you specifically about persons who were with you in the

23 isolation cell, Dervisevic Suad, and the person Zaim and you. That night

24 that you were in the isolation cell, or the next day, did you ask for

25 medical care?

Page 5097

1 A. No. We had no one to ask. In addition to that, we were all

2 beaten up.

3 Q. You said just now that you had no one to ask and only a moment

4 before that you said that you addressed the guards.

5 A. Yes, but can you understand while I was there why I had been

6 beaten? If I was not in a party, if I did not have weapons, why was all

7 of that done? Well, it was said quite clearly to me, you did not have

8 weapons, you were not in the party, you are only guilty because you are a

9 Muslim. So what was I supposed to ask for in addition to that?

10 Q. Sir, I understand your bitterness now, but that will not help us

11 get to the truth. I asked you whether there was a doctor at the KP Dom.

12 A. Not for us Muslims.

13 Q. There wasn't a medical technician either, a nurse?

14 A. I repeat; not for the Muslims. For the Serbs, yes.

15 Q. If I tell you that there were numerous witnesses here, several

16 witnesses who got drips, medicines from these same doctors, will you

17 change your opinion?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that you were interrogated at the KP Dom

20 and that you were asked whether you had weapons and which party you

21 belonged to.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did they find an SDA membership card on you?

24 A. No, because I did not belong to any party.

25 Q. Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief, you said that you were

Page 5098

1 asked which party you belonged to and, after that, which role you played

2 in the party. Why would they ask you that if you did not belong to any

3 party?

4 A. It was quite clear.

5 MR. SMITH: Your Honour --


7 MR. SMITH: Perhaps it's not a question for the witness to answer

8 why questions are being put by the Prosecution.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I agree with you entirely. Mr. Bakrac, where does

10 this get us? I know that you are saying that you only have a certain

11 amount of material, but you agreed to the matter going on. It doesn't

12 really permit you to ask totally inadmissible questions. He has no

13 control over what questions are asked by the Prosecution. Now can you get

14 on to the next point.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. I shall move

16 on, but still, this is not clear to me. The Prosecution put many

17 questions, asking the witness to reach his own conclusions. The witness

18 actually said that he was asked what party he belonged to and what role he

19 had in the party. In my opinion, it is logical that he said that he

20 belonged to the party and that then he was therefore asked which role he

21 had in the party.

22 So it's not for him to say why he was asked that. We are simply

23 trying to find out what he answered in response to that question. I shall

24 move on then, but I thought it was necessary to give this kind of

25 explanation.

Page 5099

1 JUDGE HUNT: Both parties seem to have some belief that the

2 politics of this are important. I have never understood why except

3 perhaps to give some sort of a motive, but it's not necessary to go into

4 that at this stage.

5 If you want to know what it was he said in answer to the question,

6 we'll look it up in the transcript. If you want him to repeat it now to

7 see whether he's got a memory of what he said yesterday, you ask him that.

8 But that's not what your question was. That's not the question to which

9 objection was taken.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Yesterday, you said, in relation to the death of Juso Dzamalija

12 that an autopsy was not carried out. How can you know about that?

13 A. I did not maintain that an autopsy was not carried out. The

14 body was taken out of the KP Dom and I was returned to the isolation cell,

15 so I don't really know anything about him.

16 Q. I shall remind you now, since I have the transcript here, and I

17 didn't want to go and read what the honorable Trial Chamber believes is

18 irrelevant anyway, so I shall read from the transcript. You said -- I

19 haven't got the page here, this is the unredacted text, I'm reading from

20 the transcript, that you cannot answer whether it was suicide or murder

21 because there was no autopsy.

22 A. In front of us, yes, I'm trying to tell you that I did not see

23 anything except that we carried the body out and put it out there. I

24 don't know anything else that happened.

25 Q. If you don't know that, why did you infer that no autopsy was

Page 5100

1 carried out?

2 A. I don't know how this question was put, but I maintain to you that

3 we could not know anything. We only got him out of the isolation cell.

4 Whether he was taken to be searched further or whatever, I don't know. We

5 just took him out and that was it.

6 Q. You said, in connection with the other incident, that you heard

7 that Nurko Nisic was being beaten by a guard and that Nurko Nisic said, or

8 rather that he said to Nurko, "Bosnia is not --" "That is no way to

9 defend Bosnia, Nurko." How can you know this was a guard?

10 A. I did not say that a guard was beating him because we did not know

11 who was beating him because we were locked up in the room. We just heard

12 moans, beating, we did not know who was doing the beating.

13 Q. Was there any other person in the KP Dom named Nurko?

14 A. I do not recall.

15 Q. Did you know Nurko Nisic before the war?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How well did you know him?

18 A. Very little.

19 Q. Did you talk to him?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How come you know that it was the voice of Nurko Nisic? Did you

22 hear the voice of Nurko Nisic?

23 A. I only knew that because I worked with his brother who is now in

24 Sarajevo. Through him, I knew Nurko. I saw him when they beat him,

25 around 12.00, when he was taken out with some other men in the evening,

Page 5101

1 another time when he was taken for an exchange but I don't know anything

2 else about him.

3 Q. You are saying to us now that you saw him that night when he was

4 being beaten and you didn't tell us that before. Where did you see him?

5 A. Not in the evening, during the day while I was standing at the

6 entrance door.

7 Q. During the day, at what time?

8 A. Around 11.00, 12.00, lunchtime.

9 Q. And in the evening, when did you hear them beating Nurko Nisic?

10 A. Perhaps after that, because Nurko Nisic, like everybody else, was

11 taken out every day, every evening, for interrogation.

12 Q. Again you are telling us about a new detail which you've not

13 mentioned at all. How many days and how many evenings did they take Nurko

14 Nisic out for interrogations?

15 A. Can you understand that this taking out went on infinitely and

16 that we don't know how many times people were taken out for

17 interrogations. I know about that day when he was beaten and that evening

18 we were in the room, all of us. That was in the evening.

19 Q. I'm trying to find out how come you know that it was him who they

20 were beating. How do you know it was him?

21 A. During the day, yes, in the evening no. We just heard, "Get up

22 Nurko, that's no way to defend Bosnia." Those were the words that one of

23 the guards were saying.

24 Q. How come you know it's a guard?

25 A. That's the way we talk. The military police, the guards, never

Page 5102

1 mind, somebody was beating him but we don't know who, we don't know by

2 name.

3 Q. Did this somebody just say "Nurko" or did this person say "Nurko

4 Nisic"?

5 A. I can't remember, believe me. I know that it's Nurko and Asim

6 Mezbur. Since Nurko was Nisic, I think there was only one. I'm not sure.

7 Q. So you are not sure whether it was Nurko Nisic or Asim Mezbur?

8 A. Nurko Nisic is only one, there aren't several of them.

9 Q. Could you see from your window the interior of the room from which

10 you could hear these sounds?

11 A. No. We could only see the window from which the sound was coming.

12 Q. You were in Room 11, if I am not mistaken.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So you are saying now that from that Room 11 you could not

15 see what was going on inside, you could only hear?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You showed us the room, or rather, the window where you heard this

18 from. How could you locate the sound, that it was coming precisely from

19 that window?

20 A. This is not a big distance between Room 11 and the administration

21 building. Perhaps it's about 10 or 15 metres. In the room then, we had

22 about 80 men, that is to say that we were all at the window then and we

23 were listening to this, who they were beating, and we heard these words

24 exactly, the words that were uttered.

25 Q. In which part of Room 11 were you, in that part which is closer to

Page 5103












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5104

1 the metalwork shop and the hospital or the room that is closer to

2 the town of Foca?

3 A. The room that is closer to the metalwork shop.

4 Q. A few minutes ago you said to us that in 1992, you did not dare

5 walk up to the window at all. And now you say that 80 of you were

6 standing at the window on that occasion. How do you explain that?

7 A. Yes, it's hard for me to explain that, but if it is a question of

8 beating, we were all there and we were listening and we heard full well

9 what was going on and who was being beaten. If a guard would come, would

10 see us at the window, he would come and throw that person out and take him

11 to an isolation cell, so it's right that we were not allowed to be at the

12 windows, however, it was not necessary to do that. You could sit on the

13 bed and you could hear all of this ideally.

14 Q. So you were sitting on the beds in your room and you were

15 listening to what was going on in the building opposite to you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So it is not correct that you were at the window?

18 A. Well let me tell you, out of 100 men, it is not true that you can

19 have all of them at one window.

20 Q. Were you personally at the window?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Where were you?

23 A. I was sitting on the bed and I was waiting to see who'd be next.

24 Q. Was the window open?

25 A. Half of the glass was missing.

Page 5105

1 Q. But the window was closed, right?

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that at the KP Dom or, rather, that you

5 were taken by a Black Mariah of the KP Dom to work on Milorad Krnojelac's

6 house. In your interviews with the OTP, did you mention, did you say that

7 you went every morning with the civilian police and that you were escorted

8 by a regular policeman?

9 A. No. We went in a vehicle from the KP Dom with a guard to the

10 building where we worked. The guard would withdraw, Krnojelac's son

11 would stay with us all the time, and he would guard us. That was the time

12 when I was there and when I worked.

13 Q. You said that you saw Krnojelac at the KP Dom. Did you see him in

14 civilian clothes?

15 A. Quite a few times, yes.

16 Q. Did you say to the investigator of the OTP that he often wore

17 civilian clothes and, from time to time, a military uniform?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it also true that you stated that you saw Krnojelac mostly

20 during the day, in daytime?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it also correct that you said that you cannot remember that you

23 saw him in the evening at all?

24 A. No, I did not see him in the evening hours.

25 Q. Is it also correct that you mentioned, in your interviews with the

Page 5106

1 Office of the Prosecutor, the president of the Court in relation to a

2 certain group of people?

3 A. The president of the court-martial, yes, that's true, and all the

4 questions went through that unit.

5 Q. Oh, so all the examinations went through the unit of the president

6 of the court-martial, if my understanding is correct?

7 A. Yes, that's what we called it.

8 Q. Do you know the name of that person?

9 A. At my interrogations, Zoran Vladicic was present and Vojo

10 Starovic.

11 Q. Who else?

12 A. The two of them were there when I was being interrogated.

13 Q. Are they the representatives of the court-martial?

14 A. I cannot tell you exactly. All the interrogations took place

15 there with them, so I cannot tell you exactly because all the

16 interrogations went through them.

17 Q. If I understood you correctly, you saw personally the person who

18 you claim was the president of the court-martial.

19 A. Yes, because we knew each other very well.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, did you say in your statement

21 given to the Office of the Prosecutor and in your interviews with

22 investigators of the OTP that Savo Todovic was a person who gave work

23 assignments and who designated punishments for prisoners?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When we say "prisoners," do you mean detainees of Muslim

Page 5107

1 nationality?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You told us that on one occasion it was Mr. Krnojelac who drove

4 you to the house. Which car did he drive you in?

5 A. I can't remember. I'm not sure but I think it was a red Yugo. I

6 cannot remember the car very well, but I think it was a small car, a Yugo

7 Q. Sir, you said during your examination-in-chief that you saw some

8 bodies in the Drina River and you showed us on that map the place, the

9 islet where you saw them. How far is that from the bridge in front of

10 the KP Dom?

11 A. Between 50 and 100 metres.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like first of

13 all to get your permission to seek clarification about the photo

14 documentation which we said we would be using. For the purposes of

15 questioning, we identified this photo documentation as ID D1, so other

16 evidence will get identification numbers in sequence, and we have two sets

17 of photographs. The first set is linked with the KP Dom. We identified

18 it as A and each photograph was identified as A1, A2, A3 and so on.

19 And the second set of photographs relates to the house of the accused

20 Krnojelac. We identified it as the B series, and each photograph will be

21 marked B1, B2 and so on.

22 With the help of the usher, I will show this to the witness, and

23 this photograph is identified as ID D1/A29 in the potential evidence

24 presented by the Defence.

25 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not quite sure where the D comes from. You said

Page 5108

1 we had two sets of photographs, one with the letter A and various numbers

2 and the other with the letter B and various numbers. You've now talked

3 about D1/A29. Where's the D from?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you will excuse me,

5 in our system, we don't use this system of marking. We were just trying

6 to give an identification number to avoid confusion and we added D for

7 Defence to know that it is the Defence material. So it's ID D1.

8 JUDGE HUNT: But eventually it will have to become an exhibit and

9 it will then be given the letter D, just as the Prosecution's have P, so

10 let us just call it for the moment ID 1/A29, and then when it becomes an

11 exhibit, it will become D1/A29. Is that satisfactory?

12 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, apparently --

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, it is. I think

14 there is just a mistake in the interpretation. I can show you on the

15 photo document itself how we marked it. IDD, identification number

16 Defence. Not just ID, it's IDD to distinguish from the Prosecution's

17 numbers, to avoid confusion. That was the only intent of the Defence.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, that is now clear. Now what do you want

19 to say, Mr. Smith?

20 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I don't want to be involved in the way

21 that you mark the exhibits, but apparently there is a D1 in evidence

22 already, I've been advised.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, well, I've noticed that we are up to D3 already,

24 but this is their IDD number and then when it becomes an exhibit, it will

25 become, hopefully, D3 1/A29. No, I'm sorry, D3/A29.

Page 5109

1 Yes, do proceed.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if this creates

3 confusion, we can leave only ID without the additional D. Let's clarify

4 it for the future. I thought this was easy, but if you don't think so, we

5 could do it differently. I thought we just wanted to distinguish between

6 the Prosecution and the Defence exhibits.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I agree with what you propose. Your

8 documents will be marked with an identifying number, preceded by the

9 letters "IDD" for defendant's identification number. When it becomes an

10 exhibit, it will have to take its place in the line. You've already got

11 D1 and a D2, so this will become D3/A29.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Have you got the photograph? I don't know whether

14 the Prosecution's got those photographs, do they? Are we ever going to

15 see them?

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The Prosecution has these

17 photographs. We've already given them.

18 I would like to ask the usher to take the lower photograph, A29,

19 and put it on the ELMO.

20 Q. Sir, will you please look at this photograph and tell me: Is this

21 the islet which you referred to which could be seen from the bridge?

22 A. I'm sorry, I cannot find my way around this picture.

23 Q. You don't remember whether this is the islet which you showed us

24 on the map?

25 A. I cannot answer this question precisely. I'm confused by the

Page 5110

1 bridge.

2 JUDGE HUNT: You will remember, Mr. Bakrac, that the witness

3 pointed on the map some distance past the KP Dom flowing downstream

4 despite the fact that it was described going up the map. It was some

5 distance downstream from the KP Dom at a place where the river seems to

6 have a slight bend.

7 Now, whether that was near a bridge or not, we don't know. Have

8 you got a photograph without the bridge obscuring it?

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any

10 photographs which could show that. We will bring an investigator who will

11 explain this. I said that we do have a photo documentation to present to

12 the witnesses, but this is the part downstream. I would only like the

13 witness to answer, if he possibly can, if he agrees that left -- to the

14 left side of this islet, the Drina River is deeper?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. As far as you know, and you lived in Foca, are there any other

17 bridges above this bridge in the upper flow of the Drina River?

18 A. There are three bridges.

19 Q. In Foca itself?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it also true that beyond the bridge which is opposite the KP

22 Dom and which we referred to here, the Cehotina river flows into the

23 Drina?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know how many bridges there are on the Cehotina river on

Page 5111












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5112

1 the territory of Foca?

2 A. Two bridges.

3 Q. Is it true that in the upper part of the flow of the Cehotina and

4 the Drina rivers, that is beyond the bridge outside the KP Dom on the

5 territory of the Foca town itself, there are another five bridges?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Sir, you said that above this bridge near the KP Dom, in the upper

8 flow of the Drina River, there are another three bridges and there are two

9 on the Cehotina river; did I understand you correctly?

10 A. Yes. The one at the KP Dom, the one in the centre, and one at

11 Brod, those are the three bridges on the Drina. There are two bridges on

12 the Cehotina; Aladza, one, and the second one at Donje Polje.

13 Q. So beyond this bridge, there are another two bridges on the

14 Drina and two on the Cehotina, in the upper part of the flow, before this

15 bridge at the KP Dom?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And all the four bridges above this KP Dom bridge are on the

18 territory of Foca town?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Also in the upper flow of the Drina River and outside the KP Dom,

21 there are other bridges; is that true?

22 A. Yes. There exists one at Brod and one at the railway

23 administration. The bridge which leads to Tjentiste and one at the

24 railway administration which separates the intersection between Tjentiste

25 and Sarajevo.

Page 5113

1 Q. And all of these bridges are in the upper flow of the Drina and

2 the last in the line is the bridge near the KP Dom?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Is it correct, sir, you told us here regarding

5 the conduct of Mr. Krnojelac that he was good, and that he acted

6 naturally, normally. Is it true that you said to the Office of the

7 Prosecutor that, while you were working at Krnojelac's house, he acted in

8 a friendly manner towards you and all the others from the KP Dom; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you, sir.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask for the

13 assistance of the usher in showing from the photo documentation of the

14 Defence --

15 Q. Sir, from the photo documentation of the Defence, we'd like to

16 show photograph B1. I would like this photograph to be put closer, if

17 possible, zoomed. No, not that much, sorry.

18 Is this Milorad Krnojelac's house where you worked?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

21 would like to show the witness the next photograph.

22 Q. The photograph is marked B4. If possible, please zoom it a

23 little. Thank you.

24 Is this a photograph depicting the back side of the house which

25 you previously identified as Milorad Krnojelac's house on which you

Page 5114

1 worked?

2 A. I cannot be precise.

3 Q. You're not sure?

4 A. No.

5 Q. On the top of this photograph, below the roof, can you see black

6 traces of fire, flame?

7 A. I didn't understand you.

8 Q. Below the roof, in the right-hand part and in the middle, around

9 the door and the windows, can you see traces of black soot?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You said that the walls were half destroyed and you had to rebuild

12 the rest. Here, we see that burnt walls remained standing up to the roof.

13 A. I said the inner walls, the partition walls were destroyed,

14 whereas the outer walls remained standing.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, I remind you, wait for that typing on the

16 screen ahead of you to stop before you answer.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. With the assistance of

18 the usher, I would like to show the witness the next photograph.

19 Q. This is photograph B6. Is this the interior of Milorad

20 Krnojelac's house?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Next photograph, please, B7. Is this the interior of Milorad

23 Krnojelac's house?

24 A. I can't be sure.

25 Q. Thank you. Next photograph, please.

Page 5115

1 Is this the interior of Milorad Krnojelac's house?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The photograph is marked B8. Can I

4 have photograph B9, please, with the assistance of the usher.

5 Q. Is this the interior of Milorad Krnojelac's house?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to show

8 us the last two photographs.

9 Q. This photograph B10, does it also show the interior of the house

10 of Milorad Krnojelac?

11 A. I can't be sure.

12 Q. Can I also have B11, please. Is this photograph also one of the

13 interior of Milorad Krnojelac's house on which you worked?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you please explain what had been done on the walls?

16 A. Scraping off of the plaster and preparation for wall painting,

17 cleaning.

18 Q. You mean to tell us that the plaster on these walls is new?

19 A. No, it hadn't been done yet. We were just scraping the old one to

20 make the walls bare.

21 Q. Do you see any electrical or water supply installations in these

22 walls?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you, sir. We won't need these photographs any more.

25 Can you please tell us, you talked about the food at the KP Dom

Page 5116

1 and you said that in 1993 when the warden was replaced, the food

2 improved. Is it true that in the statement you gave to the security

3 centre you said that the suffering regarding food lasted for the first 15

4 months-- sorry, eight months?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That means that the food improved after five months -- eight

7 months, beginning with the date of your incarceration?

8 A. Yes, starting with May, the food got better.

9 Q. So you will agree that at that time, Milorad Krnojelac was still

10 warden after eight months of your detention?

11 A. I cannot give you exact details how long Krnojelac was warden

12 because I didn't work in the administration then.

13 Q. I'm asking you, is it true that eight months into your detention,

14 the food improved?

15 A. For the work group which worked outside, it did.

16 Q. But you said just now that in 1993, the food improved?

17 A. From the middle of 1993, and the entire 1994 was good.

18 Q. So it's not true what you said, that eight months into your

19 detention, the food was bad. It's not true what you said to the security

20 centre of Sarajevo?

21 A. The food was not bad, it was horrible.

22 Q. Did you get eggs?

23 A. Yes, but very, very rarely. One egg per person.

24 Q. Did you get meat?

25 A. No.

Page 5117

1 Q. Did you get milk?

2 A. As a rare occurrence.

3 Q. Was there a general shortage of food in town?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You say that from the very beginning, you worked in the metalwork

6 shop. Is it true what you said during your examination-in-chief, that

7 although you worked every day in the metalwork shop, you never had a bath

8 in the whole of 1992?

9 A. I didn't work only in the metalwork shop, I worked everywhere and

10 I did all kinds of jobs. I could heat water for myself where other people

11 couldn't. Later, I obtained water in canisters. I could get hold of it.

12 Q. So you could have a bath, whereas others -- you could take a bath,

13 other people couldn't, and now you are saying that you heated water for

14 others in canisters. For what did you heat it then?

15 A. The boiler room didn't work then. The central heating didn't work

16 then. The showers downstairs didn't work. All of it was destroyed.

17 People had nowhere to take a bath, to wash.

18 Q. So due to these reasons, you couldn't take a shower - it was

19 destroyed - but you made due, and you did wash. You heated water and you

20 took a bath.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You claim that your bed sheets were not changed during the whole

23 of 1992; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you wash them yourself?

Page 5118

1 A. No.

2 Q. And even that bed linen, it wasn't washed all that year?

3 A. No, because we slept on blankets.

4 Q. You had no white sheets, no linen?

5 A. All that was left over from the former KP Dom civilians who were

6 regulars.

7 Q. Thank you. And my last question: Do you know a person by the

8 name of Atif Jasarevic, and did he work together with you on Milorad

9 Krnojelac's house?

10 A. Yes, he did.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, the Defence

12 has no further questions.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any re-examination?

14 MR. SMITH: No re-examination, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. That concludes your evidence. Thank

16 you for coming to give it. You are now free.

17 MR. SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour, I just have a couple of

18 questions, I'm sorry.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we'll deal with them at 2.30.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.







Page 5119












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5120

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith.

3 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I just have a

4 few questions in relation to the photographs that have been identified.

5 JUDGE HUNT: It was two questions before but it's a few now, is

6 it?

7 MR. SMITH: I should have kept it broader earlier. Perhaps if the

8 usher could put the photograph IDD-1B1 on the overhead, thank you.

9 Re-examined by Mr. Smith:

10 Q. Witness, when you -- you said to my learned friend that you

11 recognised this house as the house of Milorad Krnojelac; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The last day that you worked on the house, did it look in the same

14 state that it is on this photograph or are there some changes?

15 A. No, there were some changes.

16 Q. And if you can point out on the photograph the changes that have

17 been made to the house since you worked there.

18 A. The roof construction had not been made, and I do not remember

19 this part having been there.

20 MR. SMITH: The witness indicates the roof of the house that's

21 white when he referred to roof construction, and then he indicated the

22 building with orange bricks as the one he didn't remember being there at

23 that time.

24 Q. Were all the tiles -- were any tiles on the roof when you left on

25 your last day?

Page 5121

1 A. No.

2 Q. Had the wood work on the roof, had that been placed on the house,

3 on which the tiles are resting, on the last day that you were there?

4 A. The construction had just been placed.

5 Q. And did the detainees put that construction, that roof

6 construction on?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So just to be clear, there were no tiles on the roof; is that

9 right?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Just -- that is a little bit ambiguous. Were there tiles on the

12 roof when you left on your last day?

13 A. No, there weren't.

14 Q. If you look on the photograph on the -- it looks to be the second

15 floor of the house, or the floor above the ground floor, on the left-hand

16 side there's wood work in the doorways of the house. Was that wood work

17 there when you left?

18 A. I do not remember that.

19 Q. And I think you said that you can't remember whether the house

20 construction with the orange bricks was there when you worked on the

21 house.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Apart from the tiles being placed on the roof since you worked at

24 the house, are there any other extra additions that have been made to the

25 outside of the house - this is the white house - since you worked on it?

Page 5122

1 A. No.

2 Q. So that's how the house looked when you left it on the last day,

3 apart from the roof?

4 A. Yes, and this part, which is new and made of bricks.

5 Q. How many floors were there in Mr. Krnojelac's house?

6 A. There was the ground floor down there, and then the upstairs;

7 there were two stories up there and there was the ground floor.

8 Q. And on the ground, was there a cafe there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what work was done by the detainees in the cafe area?

11 A. Cleaning was done, iron steps were made.

12 Q. And the iron steps, where were they to go to? Were they to go to

13 the first and second floors or were they just simply steps for the cafe?

14 A. The ground floor and the first floor.

15 MR. SMITH: If the witness can be shown photograph B8 and B9.

16 Q. You mentioned that you recognised this staircase, the black

17 staircase.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Did he ever refer to B8? I thought that he was asked

19 about B9.

20 MR. SMITH: I have that he referred to B8, Your Honour, but I may

21 have mistakenly noted it.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Do you remember, Mr. Bakrac?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If you really want me to tell you the

24 truth, Your Honour, honestly I don't remember. But at any rate, I shall

25 avail myself of this opportunity to object. If we showed the photograph,

Page 5123

1 we have to say whether this is the indoors of that house, not asking him

2 whether he recognises the staircase, so I think that my learned friend put

3 the question the wrong way.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure I understand the distinction. He's

5 asking him whether he identifies this staircase as the staircase in the

6 house in which he worked. That's identifying the inside of the house, I

7 would have thought myself. But my recollection is that that was shown to

8 him by the usher and was then moved up to show B9.

9 I've just been told it's in the transcript as B8, so I'm sorry to

10 have interfered.

11 MR. SMITH: I'll clarify it anyway, Your Honour.

12 Q. Witness, how many staircases were made for the house, for

13 Krnojelac's house?

14 A. I was there while the work on the ground floor was being done.

15 Q. And about how many staircases -- was one staircase made or two

16 made for the house?

17 A. I'm not sure. I worked in the ground floor, I'm not sure about

18 the upstairs.

19 Q. You said you recognise this particular room in the house. Is that

20 upstairs or is it downstairs, on the ground floor?

21 A. Upstairs, the first floor.

22 Q. Perhaps if we look at photograph B9.

23 You said also that you recognised this staircase. Is that right,

24 you recognise that staircase as well?

25 A. I can't be sure.

Page 5124

1 Q. What colour do you remember the staircase being, or the staircase

2 or staircases that were made?

3 A. A basic red colour.

4 Q. The first staircase that was shown to you was a black staircase,

5 so are you sure whether that was made for the house?

6 A. There was an old staircase and the new one that was painted red,

7 should have been the new one.

8 Q. And is that the staircase on photograph B9?

9 A. I'm not sure.

10 Q. If we look at this photograph, is this the way you remembered the

11 room when you left?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Has any further work been done on that room since you've left?

14 JUDGE HUNT: How can he say that?

15 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, from the photograph, I omitted to add.

16 JUDGE HUNT: He's just said that's how he remembers the house when

17 he left.

18 MR. SMITH: All right. Thank you, Your Honour, that's true.

19 Q. Witness, can you look at B8, the photograph on top again. You

20 said that you recognised that room. Has any further work been done in

21 that room since you left, sorry from -- does it look the same as when you

22 left as in the photograph?

23 A. No, it is hard for me to orient myself because I spent 10 days

24 there, doing the cleaning. That is a very brief period.

25 Q. So is it the case that you can't specifically recognise this

Page 5125

1 particular room; is that right?

2 A. With great difficulty.

3 Q. When you were working on the house, was there a large amount of

4 construction material there that -- similar to what appears on the

5 photograph?

6 A. No.

7 MR. SMITH: I would ask that the witness be shown photograph B11.

8 Q. Witness, you stated that you recognised this photograph as a room

9 in the house.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you describe in more detail what was done in relation to the

12 walls? You said that some work was done on the walls.

13 A. At that time, the roof construction had not been placed, that is

14 to say, it wasn't covered.

15 Q. But the wood work was there; is that correct?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And in relation to the walls, did you or other detainees do any

18 work on these particular walls?

19 A. Scraping the walls, yes. The rest, no.

20 Q. Does this room in the photograph look the same as when you left

21 the house when you worked on the last day?

22 JUDGE HUNT: You mean other than the roof?

23 MR. SMITH: That's correct. Other than the roof, Your Honour.

24 A. Yes, without the roof, yes.

25 Q. And in summary, can you just restate what work was done on the

Page 5126

1 house, just briefly.

2 A. The staircase, the roofing, the roof construction. I can't tell

3 you more than that. I don't know what was done. I know what I was doing,

4 and I know about part of the staircase while that was being made.

5 Q. After you finished on the last day at the house, did you know

6 whether detainees worked at that house after your last day?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And do you know how long they worked on the house for, about how

9 many days?

10 A. I cannot tell you. I don't know.

11 MR. SMITH: No further questions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, once again, sir, thank you for giving your

13 evidence. You are now free to leave.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and good bye.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this is actually -- this was the

18 last Prosecution witness, but we have three outstanding matters. The

19 first matter you probably recall, that in relation to the testimony of

20 Mr. Masovic, Mr. Masovic got the task to add additional information on

21 the list of detainees who were last seen in the KP Dom. And Mr. Masovic

22 has actually achieved his goal and he has made this list, but since this

23 morning, we are trying to get it over through fax and we were not very

24 successful.

25 It's actually 39 pages that have to be faxed and we couldn't get

Page 5127












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5128

1 it yet. It has to be done in intervals because of the bad lines and it's

2 not completely here now. Actually, only the beginning is here. So we

3 cannot provide this list right now, and before closing this case, we would

4 have to ask to get an opportunity to hand it in later.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we'd better wait until you've dealt with the

6 other two matters that you want to raise but there would be nothing wrong,

7 that I could see, with you saying that you close your case subject to the

8 production of that document when it arrives. I think we've got to have a

9 final statement that the Prosecution case is otherwise closed, though.


11 JUDGE HUNT: So that's all right. When do you expect to be able

12 to get the whole document?

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We hope to get it during this day, but

14 tomorrow at the latest. But I'm not really sure because I haven't seen

15 anything of it. I do not know if it is in the B/C/S language, but I very

16 much think so. So we would also have to produce a translation.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, there will be no problem, I should think, with

18 that even if it doesn't come until next week sometime. There would be no

19 need for us to even re-assemble for you to formally tender it, provided

20 that you have otherwise closed your case, subject to the production of

21 that and an English translation, and that can be done informally.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I was just informed that the document is in

23 the English language so we would only need the fax to get through today or

24 tomorrow morning.

25 The other issue in relation to Mr. Masovic's testimony was the

Page 5129

1 question of the ICRC list that he received on the particular meeting, and

2 actually, we had asked the ICRC three questions in relation to this list,

3 and we had asked them in a letter dated 23rd March 2001, first on the

4 basis of the Trial Chamber's request to the Prosecution, could you

5 provide, firstly, confirmation that the copy of this document was provided

6 by the ICRC to the various former parties to the conflict at a working

7 group meeting during or after 1996.

8 Secondly, information as to whether the ICRC compiled this

9 particular document or whether it was received from another source.

10 And thirdly, the general source of the information on the

11 document, whether compiled by the ICRC or not.

12 And yesterday, we received a fax from the ICRC. They -- I don't

13 want to read it here, out fully, but the last sentence is the following:

14 "For the above reasons, I regret to inform you that we cannot provide the

15 additional information requested in your letter."

16 JUDGE HUNT: Not even the confirmation that that was the document

17 handed out to people?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour. Nothing at all. And we

19 would like to enter both documents into evidence, that is, our letter and

20 the response from the ICRC, and we have actually provided it to the

21 Defence counsel already.

22 JUDGE HUNT: They make it very hard for people to like them, I'm

23 afraid, the ICRC, at times.

24 You see, they don't even deal with the first matter that you have

25 asked. One can understand, if not agree with, their desire to avoid

Page 5130

1 disclosing the source of the information used to compile the document, but

2 it seems to me to be being recalcitrant to their interests to refuse even

3 to confirm that the document was handed to the various parties in that

4 working group. However, that's what we face.

5 Yes, well, now, Mr. Bakrac, do you object to the tender of this

6 material?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P451.

9 It's a matter which, of course, will, I suppose, go to the weight

10 to be afforded to Mr. Masovic's evidence, but there's nothing that you can

11 do to cure it and I think that from the point of view of the Tribunal,

12 it's regrettable.

13 The other material, well, even if you took the view which I

14 expressed in the ICRC decision in the Simic case, I don't think that we

15 could require them to produce that information. It is of importance but

16 not of such an overwhelming importance that they should have to reveal

17 confidential sources.

18 The Prosecution case is based upon a system which was operating

19 and the mere fact that it came from the ICRC, if we accept Mr. Masovic's

20 evidence, would be of some value or some probative value of the material

21 provided. It's just that we can't test it any further. So I think that

22 we should put the ICRC to one side now that you have produced this

23 material. So that's the second matter.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And the third matter relates to the

25 expert report of the Prosecution expert, but Ms. Kuo, who has actually

Page 5131

1 dealt with the matter, will speak to this.

2 MS. KUO: Your Honours, we have submitted the 13-page report for

3 formal translation, which is not yet available, but we have had a very

4 cursory oral summary of it and, based on that, we understand that our

5 expert concludes that Mr. Krnojelac was perfectly normal.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you have to enlighten us as to what the Defence

7 expert says, because we haven't -- all we know was that it was a

8 psychiatric or psychological examination.

9 MS. KUO: We don't -- we still don't have a copy of that in

10 English and we haven't been able to get that summarised, but based on what

11 the Prosecution expert says, we understand that their disagreement, there

12 is a slight disagreement that the Defence expert thinks -- concludes that

13 Mr. Krnojelac was more subject to anxiety than other people.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Is this a matter of mitigation, is it?

15 MS. KUO: It's not exactly clear because we haven't had the full

16 discussion about the relevance. So at this point, based on what we

17 understand, the Prosecution is not inclined to put this report in its case

18 in chief because we believe there is no issue in dispute. And we don't

19 want to take on the burden of having to produce evidence that an accused

20 is normal because we think that's --

21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's assumed.

22 MS. KUO: Yes.

23 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think there can be any doubt about that. If

24 the -- if an accused person wants to raise an issue as to his mental

25 responsibility, the onus is on him to do so. But let's see what the

Page 5132

1 accused says, or at least his counsel says, is the issue that it goes to

2 and then we can come back and see what you have to do with your reply.

3 MS. KUO: Thank you.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, does this go to some question of his

5 mental responsibility?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, our client is not

7 defending himself by claiming mental irresponsibility or mental disorders

8 of any kind. We asked for neuropsychiatric expertise and the experts were

9 instructed to see how the accused behaves in certain situations.

10 Yesterday, last night, I got the expert opinion from the

11 Prosecutor's expert and I had to deal with the witness we had today, so I

12 didn't really have time to deal at any length with this, and we expect --

13 JUDGE HUNT: May I interrupt you. To what issue would you be

14 tendering your report? Forget the Prosecution report. Do you propose to

15 tender your report?

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, we shall intend to tender it and

17 we shall also call the expert to explain what the expert found with regard

18 to all of those matters that were the subject of the expertise.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Now, I wonder if you could just answer the question I

20 keep on wanting to know the answer to. To what issue does this go? Is

21 it a matter in mitigation or is it a matter that goes to his criminal

22 responsibility?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, not his criminal

24 responsibility. In our pre-trial brief, we already said which path the

25 Defence would take. So this could possibly work in terms of determination

Page 5133

1 of guilt. This expertise would therefore relate to mitigation, mitigating

2 circumstances, actually, not criminal responsibility.

3 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I thought, but I just wanted you to say

4 so. But thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

5 Well, Ms. Kuo, if it goes in mitigation, that's a matter upon

6 which the accused bears the onus of proof and therefore, it would be

7 normal for you to tender it in reply.

8 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. And if we have the opportunity -- let

9 me ask for clarification. Do you mean that we should wait until their

10 report is put in?


12 MS. KUO: Yes. If we have the opportunity in rebuttal, that was

13 what we were concerned about. Then if that's the case -- and also we

14 may wish to use this during cross-examination.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Of course, of course. You will give a copy to

16 everybody -- well, you've already given Mr. Bakrac a copy which he can

17 read and we can't.

18 There is a lot of law in some common law countries about the

19 obligation of the Prosecution to tender the whole of its case on guilt in

20 the case in chief if it knows of any particular issue which is being

21 raised. That's usually considered in the light of the fact that they are

22 jury trials and that appellate courts have a passionate belief that juries

23 are swayed by what happens at the last moment in the case. I don't think

24 it applies in the Tribunal's proceedings. The Rules provide for cases in

25 reply and then rebuttal. I think they call them something quite a little

Page 5134

1 different, but that's the way I look at it.

2 So that this is a matter where the defendant bears an onus of

3 proof. They are going to tender it in their case, so the Prosecution can,

4 if it wishes to, tender it in reply and call the witness, the expert

5 witness if necessary.

6 Well, does that satisfy the last of your queries?

7 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: All right then. Well, then, may we take it that the

9 Prosecution is now closed, subject to the production of the annotated list

10 that Mr. Masovic is working on.

11 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, the Prosecution would rest then.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Very well.

13 Well, Mr. Bakrac, you understand that the Prosecution case has

14 closed. They can't lead anything else, but they will be producing that

15 document which you sought from Mr. Masovic when it is finally here and

16 there is a translation made of it.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence really

18 has no reason to create a problem in this respect. So far, we've had a

19 perfectly satisfactory cooperation with the Office of the Prosecutor. I

20 believe the Defence can wait, and I hope we'll have enough time to

21 respond.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think you'll probably find that you'll get it

23 next week some time, but you don't want them to have the Trial Chamber

24 re-assembled in order to tender it. It can be done on an informal basis

25 and confirmed when we do re-assemble for the pre-Defence conference. Are

Page 5135

1 you satisfied with that?

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE HUNT: I am very grateful to you. We are grateful to both

4 parties for the cooperation that has occurred during the course of this

5 trial. It has certainly speeded the matter up without anybody losing any

6 advantages or rights.

7 Well, in those circumstances, we will re-assemble on Thursday, the

8 26th of April for the pre-Defence conference and we expect the Defence

9 case to commence on the 1st of May.

10 Is there anything anybody else wants to raise at this stage? Very

11 well, we shall see you again at the end of

12 April. I hope you all have a happy Serbian -- orthodox and non-orthodox

13 Easter.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

15 at 3.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday

16 the 26th day of April, 2001, at

17 9.30 a.m.