Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5635

1 Tuesday, 8 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

10 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]

14 Q. Mr. Mihajlovic, yesterday you said that you had been reporting to

15 Ustikolina for your military service since 1980, so you were very familiar

16 with Ustikolina, right?

17 A. It's near Foca, about 50 kilometres, and I would spend about 10

18 days or 15 days there. While I was on the reserve force, I didn't stay

19 there much.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could the witness please

21 speak into the microphone.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you move your seat up a little bit closer

23 to the table or pull the microphones closer to you because the

24 interpreters are having great difficulty hearing your answers. Thank you.

25 MS. KUO:

Page 5636

1 Q. I'd like to clarify the distance. Is it 50 or 15 kilometres?

2 A. Fifteen.

3 Q. And at Ustikolina, that was the JNA command centre, right?

4 A. It wasn't a command centre. How should I put this? There were

5 military warehouses there, and there was just a small unit there of some

6 20-odd soldiers, and they were just guarding those depots.

7 Q. And among the depots was a fuel depot located at Pilipovici or

8 Filipovici, about 3 kilometres away, right?

9 A. I know it was closer to Foca. It was about 10 or 12 kilometres

10 away from Foca. However, these depots were not under the same command.

11 The commands were separate. These depots in Ustikolina were depots for

12 weapons, whereas the other ones were fuel depots.

13 Q. And you -- when you were sent in early April to Ustikolina, it was

14 to the ammunition depot, right?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. This ammunition depot supplied weapons for the JNA in that whole

17 area, including Foca, right?

18 A. I don't know about that. As for supplies, it was active-duty

19 officers of the Yugoslav army that were in charge of that.

20 Q. When you went on your call-up assignment to the Ustikolina

21 ammunitions depot and you stayed there a few days before you were told to

22 go home, what did you do?

23 A. Well, we were at that particular facility, and we were helping the

24 soldiers guard it.

25 Q. Arms were being distributed already at that point, right?

Page 5637

1 A. No.

2 Q. Wasn't there already tension building between Muslims and Serbs in

3 that area?

4 A. There were tensions, but, for example, I didn't get any weapons.

5 I can't say about the others, whether they did get some or not. As a

6 matter of fact, the reserve force that I was on in Ustikolina was not

7 given any weapons. We were just staying with active duty soldiers, and

8 they were the ones who had weapons. They had automatic rifles.

9 Q. You didn't participate in any inventory of the weapons, did you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So what you're saying is you don't know whether weapons were

12 actually being distributed to Serb soldiers through the JNA, right? You

13 don't know that.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure what the witness

15 said.

16 MS. KUO:

17 Q. Could you repeat your answer, sir.

18 A. I don't know. I don't know whether it was distributed at all. As

19 far as I know, when I talked to the soldiers and everything, I think that

20 there weren't any rifles there. There were grenades there and ammunition,

21 but I don't think there were any rifles at the depot in Ustikolina.

22 However, this is not absolutely certain because I did not actually enter

23 the facility myself.

24 Q. You mentioned that there was a very poor response to the call-up.

25 The people who did respond, what ethnicity were they?

Page 5638

1 A. Well, perhaps only about 20 per cent of those who were called up

2 responded to the call-up. I remember that Captain Golubovic, who was sort

3 of the commanding officer there at that depot, found this to be very hard,

4 because so few people responded to the call-up. But there were Serbs and

5 Muslims who responded to the call-up. Perhaps a bit more Serbs, but I

6 can't say for sure right now.

7 Q. And Captain Golubovic was the commander of that depot for many

8 years, right?

9 A. Well, before the war. I can't remember exactly when he was

10 appointed. I think it might have been a year or two before that. I don't

11 really know exactly.

12 Q. He was not an extremist or a nationalist, was he?

13 A. I don't think so, no.

14 Q. In early April, however, Captain Golubovic was replaced by Zoran

15 Vlahovic; isn't that right?

16 A. I don't know about that. While I was in Ustikolina -- I mean, I

17 left Ustikolina on the 6th of April in the morning. Until then, it was

18 Captain Golubovic and I don't know who came later.

19 Q. You told us yesterday that in May you were called up again and

20 returned to Ustikolina.

21 A. I did not return to Ustikolina. I was called up, mobilised and I

22 was at the high school in Foca. There was some kind of temporary barracks

23 there and I spent a few days there and then I was sent to a unit at the

24 front line.

25 Q. Are you -- do you know a person named Pero Mihajlovic in

Page 5639

1 Ustikolina?

2 A. Yes, I do, but we are not related. We are from completely

3 different parts of Foca. I know him by name. I think actually never had

4 any kind of contact with him.

5 Q. He was the head of the SDS in Ustikolina; isn't that right?

6 A. I don't know about that. I did not belong to any parties. I had

7 nothing to do with that.

8 Q. You said -- during the time that you were there, before you left

9 on April 6th, were there things happening? Was it very busy or was it

10 very calm?

11 A. These depots are on the outskirts of Ustikolina. They are not

12 located exactly in the middle of Ustikolina. So on the 6th of April in

13 the morning, we were reservists wearing reservist uniforms, we boarded a

14 bus. We passed through Ustikolina and got to the bus station in

15 Ustikolina, and then we took the bus and went back to Foca.

16 Q. My question, sir, is regarding a military activity around this

17 military base.

18 A. Nothing special. Every day the soldiers were guarding that over

19 there. It's a very small number of soldiers. It's a very small unit, I

20 don't think there were more than 20 of them. So they had their regular

21 activities, like guard duty.

22 Q. Were there war preparations going on at this time?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Nobody was coming by to pick up weapons or get ready for potential

25 armed conflict?

Page 5640

1 A. No, no. Actually, as a matter of fact, Captain Golubovic issued

2 strict orders, I remember that distinctly, that civilians cannot enter the

3 compound where the depots were at all. They were not allowed access at

4 all. Because a few officers -- a few officers who were in charge of those

5 depots were there with Captain Golubovic, and there were Muslims too, and

6 that's probably why he highlighted that so specifically.

7 Q. Sorry, I don't understand that connection. Why does the presence

8 of Muslim officers, why did that lead Captain Golubovic to highlight that

9 civilians should not be allowed?

10 A. Well, in my assessment, they were colleagues, Serbs who were

11 officers and Muslims who were officers, and they probably didn't want to

12 have any kind of conflicts. That is my very own assessment.

13 Q. So everything was calm and quiet when you left on the 6th of

14 April; is that right?

15 A. Absolutely.

16 Q. Two days later, on the 8th of April, war broke out, right?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. You were not called up at that time to return to Ustikolina?

19 A. No, no. As I told you, I was supposed to go to work at 7.00. My

20 father was supposed to go at 6.00 and then he got back -- yes, please go

21 ahead.

22 Q. You do not need to repeat what you have already testified to

23 yesterday. We all heard it and we have it on paper as well. Are you

24 aware that, starting on April 8th, when the war started, that about 300 to

25 500 Muslim refugees sought shelter at the Ustikolina warehouse?

Page 5641

1 A. I'm not aware of that. That was not the case for sure until the

2 6th. Perhaps after the 6th, but until the 6th, no.

3 Q. But after the 6th, did you hear about that, that this is in fact

4 what was happening, that Muslim civilians were seeking shelter there?

5 A. I really didn't.

6 Q. On the 26th of April, were you still in Foca?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are you aware that the warehouses in Ustikolina were taken over by

9 the White Eagles on that date? It was Easter.

10 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that.

11 Q. Yesterday, sir, you ended your testimony with the comment that the

12 call-up response was poor and had there not been a war, those who didn't

13 report would probably have suffered consequences under the law.

14 First of all, what consequences would they have suffered for not

15 responding to the call-up?

16 A. Well, there was this very specific article of a law which

17 specified measures that would be taken if one does not respond to call-up

18 papers for exercises in the reserve, and I'm not sure whether only a fine

19 is paid or whether a person would be sent to goal. But don't take my word

20 for this, please. I'm not very knowledgeable about laws and things like

21 that. I'm not a legal person or anything like that.

22 Q. And what was it about the fact that war started that led to these

23 consequences not being -- to people not having to face these consequences?

24 A. Well, simply because there was total confusion. There was total

25 disarray. Nothing functioned.

Page 5642

1 Q. Including the military?

2 A. Absolutely. The military is part of the society in general.

3 Q. So what you're saying is that the military discipline was breaking

4 down at that time as well, that even though people disobeyed military

5 rules, they did not have to face consequences?

6 A. Well, it all depends on the person involved. It depends on the

7 kind of person somebody is, who wants to observe the law and who doesn't

8 want to observe the law. It's an individual thing.

9 Q. You testified yesterday, sir, that around the 15th or 16th of

10 April, you were able to return to the hospital to work, right?

11 A. Well, yes, approximately. It's hard to remember the exact date or

12 something, but, yeah, approximately.

13 Q. And you were able to return to work because the fighting in Foca

14 had basically stopped by then, right?

15 A. Well, let me tell you: Shooting could still be heard somewhere on

16 the outskirts, but the road to the hospital was accessible. A vehicle

17 came from the hospital and then I took that vehicle back to the hospital.

18 Q. How many days did you work at the hospital?

19 A. Well, I worked until the beginning of May, something like that.

20 Q. Every day?

21 A. Almost every day. Perhaps not Sunday. Or if there was a

22 religious holiday, perhaps I was with my family then.

23 Q. Did you work inside the pharmacy or inside the hospital, or were

24 they in the same building?

25 A. The hospital in Foca consists of five buildings. The pharmacy is

Page 5643













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5644

1 in one of those buildings. My office was in the pharmacy because I was in

2 charge of the pharmacy bookkeeping.

3 Q. The place where the doctors worked, was that in a different

4 building or in the same, or did you also share a common entrance into the

5 compound?

6 A. There was a common entrance into the entire compound of the

7 hospital, but then physicians worked in different wards and, therefore, in

8 different buildings.

9 Q. You were at the hospital working, then, on the 20th or 21st of

10 April, right?

11 A. Probably.

12 Q. And on that day, the doctors, the Muslim doctors who were still

13 working at the hospital were taken from the hospital and arrested; isn't

14 that right?

15 A. I don't think that's right because Dr. Reuf Tafro, chairman of the

16 board, was there after that, and some other doctors, I think. Ismet

17 Sosevic, Dr. Ismet Sosevic was there after that date. And not only them,

18 but probably others, too. I just remember them. I remember seeing them,

19 actually.

20 Q. Do you know Dr. Aziz Torlak?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. He was arrested on that day, right, in April?

23 A. I'm not aware of that.

24 Q. At some point, Dr. Aziz Torlak was arrested and taken to KP Dom,

25 right?

Page 5645

1 A. Well, let me tell you -- actually, I've already told you. The

2 building where I worked is just one of the buildings there. I can explain

3 this to you. I worked in the last building, that's where the hospital

4 pharmacy was, and as far as I know -- well, I do know. Dr. Aziz Torlak

5 was a surgeon. He worked in the first building. Whether they took him

6 away or not, I really don't know about that.

7 Q. You said that you were in charge of bookkeeping at the pharmacy,

8 and that means that you also knew how much medicine there was in supply;

9 isn't that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So you must be aware that before the war started, medicine started

12 to disappear from the hospital, right?

13 A. No. I state with full responsibility that not a single medicine

14 could have been taken out of the hospital or -- hospital pharmacy or was

15 taken out of the hospital pharmacy, so only what was needed for the

16 hospital. Papers had to be submitted with the signature of the head of a

17 particular ward, and that is how medicine was delivered every day for the

18 therapy that was supposed to be administered on a particular day. That is

19 how a hospital pharmacy functions. People from wards come for these

20 medicines, and it is only with these papers that they can take them to the

21 wards. But from the hospital pharmacy, I can state with full

22 responsibility that not a single medicine was taken out.

23 Q. Was the army taking medicine out? Did they have access?

24 A. No. As a matter of fact, I did not see a single soldier within

25 the hospital compound.

Page 5646

1 Q. Ever? Even in late April?

2 A. Yes. They came, but as far as I know, they left their weapons at

3 the gate and then they would enter. They probably came to pay visits.

4 They did wear military uniforms, but I didn't see them carrying any

5 weapons. At least, I didn't.

6 Q. On what date did Milorad Krnojelac visit the hospital?

7 A. Well, we met sometime towards the end of April. I can't give you

8 the exact date, but it was after the 20th. It was the end of April,

9 something like that.

10 Q. At that time, he was already the warden of KP Dom, right?

11 A. I found out about that when I talked to him. I told you that he

12 was my teacher. So we met, we talked, and we talked about the fact that

13 there was a war going on, and he -- and I asked him where he was, and he

14 said that he was appointed director of the Drina Economic Unit so that

15 property would be salvaged, and I remember asking him, "How come; you

16 teach?" And he said to me, "Well, you know, it was hard for me too. My

17 entire life is teaching and my pupils, but that's the assignment I got, so

18 what can I do?"

19 Q. In other words, Milorad Krnojelac as a teacher was in charge of

20 students and people, never property, right?

21 A. I don't understand this question.

22 Q. You were surprised that Milorad Krnojelac was put in charge of

23 property, as he told you, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You were surprised about that because, up until that point, in

Page 5647

1 many decades of working as a teacher, his main job was to look after

2 students, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As a teacher, he was not responsible for looking after the

5 buildings and properties of the school. That was someone else's job,

6 right?

7 A. Well, as a teacher, of course, he had to be careful that his

8 students do not destroy school property. That is the duty of every

9 teacher. That is to say, desks, the blackboard, and other school

10 property.

11 Q. But his focus as a maths teacher in an elementary school was to

12 look after the students, right?

13 A. Absolutely, yes, yes, to teach mathematics and to educate young

14 people, of course.

15 Q. As far as you know, he was never custodian or groundskeeper or

16 building maintenance manager of the school, right?

17 A. I don't know. He was a teacher. I mean, that's what I know.

18 Whether he had some other duties in the school, that I don't know.

19 Q. When you saw Milorad Krnojelac at the hospital, it was in his

20 official capacity as the warden, right?

21 A. I didn't ask him what the reason was, why he came there. I don't

22 know whether he came there in the course of his official duties. I really

23 don't know about that. We just chatted informally, he as my former

24 teacher and I as his former student.

25 Q. You were in the pharmacy working on that day, right?

Page 5648

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. And this is a different building, you've just told us, from where

3 the doctors and patients were, right?

4 A. We met by the entrance, somewhere around the hospital gate, so you

5 have to understand this. The hospital compound - I'm just giving you an

6 approximation - it's about 200 or 250 metres long and there are five

7 buildings there. And we met by the first building, where you enter the

8 hospital. That's where the labs are, where lab tests are made and things

9 like that. So then, for example, when you're going to have blood tests

10 and things like that, that's the lab that you go to. And that's where we

11 met.

12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac was on his way into the hospital, right?

13 A. No, no. Since my office was at the very end, I was walking

14 towards that place and he was standing there with his son. I was going

15 home. This was towards the end of working hours, sometime in the

16 afternoon, late in the afternoon.

17 Q. Which son was he standing there with?

18 A. Mika, Mika is his nickname. I think his real name is Bozidar but

19 they call him Mika, actually.

20 Q. And the son was in military uniform, was he not?

21 A. No, no, both wore civilian clothes.

22 Q. What were they doing at the hospital?

23 A. We really didn't discuss that. I absolutely have no idea.

24 Q. You never asked your teacher when you saw him, "Teacher Krnojelac,

25 what brings you to the hospital?" You never asked that?

Page 5649

1 A. I didn't ask him, simply because we talked generally about the

2 situation, where he was assigned to, where I was. I mean, I didn't -- we

3 just had a general conversation, so we didn't talk about why he was there.

4 Q. It was the end of the day, you just told us, and you were on your

5 way home from work, right?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. And it was a complete coincidence that you bumped into your former

8 teacher in the hospital, right?

9 A. Yes, coincidence, nothing but.

10 Q. And he happened to ask you about medicines at that time as well?

11 A. Yes, as we talked, he said, "Down there in the passages and in

12 some offices in the Drina Business Unit, there is some medicine scattered

13 about and destroyed," and he asked me what to do with them and I sent him

14 to Mrgud who was the head of the pharmacy because he had a master's degree

15 in pharmacology, so he could tell him what was -- what still could be

16 used, where the date of use had expired and so on.

17 Q. Was that what Mr. Krnojelac said, "In the passages and offices of

18 the Drina Business Unit"? Is that what he said?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And he took you down to the KP Dom to show you the medicines,

21 right?

22 A. No, no. I sent him to Vito Mrgud. I said, "Why should I go

23 there? I know nothing about those things."

24 Q. But he asked you to go to the KP Dom to see what could be done,

25 right?

Page 5650













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5651

1 A. He told me, "Will you come along?" And I said, "Well, you better

2 put it somewhere and when you can come again, and when Vito Mrgud is

3 available, then you talk to him and you arrange about that."

4 Q. Are you aware that there was any sort of pharmacy associated with

5 the Drina Business Unit? There is none, right? There is no such pharmacy

6 associated with the Drina Business Unit?

7 A. Believe me, I never worked in that company so I have no idea what,

8 in fact, it was, but I guess since it was a civilian prison, and I know

9 there were some nurses there and doctors went to work there, so I suppose

10 they had to have some pharmacy for the prisoners, for the convicts or

11 something like that.

12 Q. When you spoke with Mr. Krnojelac and he told you about his

13 assignment, did he tell you that he was taking any steps to get out of it,

14 to get reassigned? He didn't, did he?

15 A. Believe me, he said that he wasn't very happy, that he would

16 prefer to go back to school, but schools were not working. And what he

17 said was, "Well, I hope when the schools start working again that I'll go

18 back to school and that somebody else will take this over." Something

19 along those lines is what he did say to me.

20 Q. But he didn't mention any active steps he was taking to get out of

21 this assignment, right? Just hoping.

22 A. Well, let me tell you, one has to understand how things were in

23 Foca. You could not take steps. If you had been assigned to a duty, you

24 could only stay there or not go to work, but then one fears consequences

25 if he refuses to work. One complies with the law, and if one's been told

Page 5652

1 your assignment is there and there, then you have to do it. If a man is

2 honest and right, then he will do the work that he is assigned to.

3 He couldn't -- I couldn't, for instance, I couldn't say, "I won't

4 do this," because my duty was there and his duty was that, and I suppose

5 he had to do it.

6 Q. If you had been assigned in your wartime assignment as director of

7 the hospital and you did not want to be director, isn't it true that you

8 simply would have been reassigned to some lower position? In other words,

9 you wouldn't be forced to be at this high position, would you? You could

10 have gone back to your job as a bookkeeper instead of being director,

11 right?

12 A. Well, I couldn't become a manager because a manager is -- managers

13 were appointed by the executive board from amongst more experienced people

14 available, those with university degrees. At that time, the managers

15 mostly became people who enjoyed a good name in the town; people who were

16 honest, who were conscientious. And that is, efforts were being made to

17 bring tensions down, to -- because any, any man pretending to be normal --

18 you know what a war is. Nobody likes to be in a war. For a normal man,

19 it means a state of emergency.

20 Q. Mr. Mihajlovic, let me just ask it this way: If you had been

21 asked - let's just suppose this - if you had been asked to become director

22 of the hospital, you would have considered it an honour, right; and you

23 would have perhaps felt you weren't quite qualified for it, as you

24 mentioned?

25 A. If they were planning to appoint me, then I would have no choice.

Page 5653

1 That is, one did not have a choice. Labour duty is the same thing as

2 being sent to the front. Labour duty is part of that whole -- that is, if

3 you are taking up your labour duty is like your combat orders. Some

4 people go to the -- join the army, some go to companies, but wherever you

5 are assigned to, you have to go and do it. There was no choice.

6 Q. Now, suppose you had been made director of the hospital and you

7 found out at some point that people were being killed at the hospital

8 instead of being treated, and then you asked no longer to be director of

9 the hospital, isn't it true that you could have asked to be reassigned to,

10 let's say, sweep the floor in the hospital instead of being the director

11 where people were being killed? Isn't that right? You'd still be working

12 but in a different capacity.

13 A. Well, you can work and you can ask to take you off a particular

14 duty, but if they won't do it, then you have to come to work or suffer the

15 consequences. For instance, had I failed to respond to my labour duty, it

16 would mean that I'd refused that duty and I'd be arrested.

17 Q. Sir, you mentioned that you saw Muslims in Foca during your trips

18 back from the front and that this was in May and June, right?

19 A. Yes. Perhaps - I say "perhaps" - early July, but May, June I'm

20 quite positive that I saw some of my colleagues from work. I was about

21 30; that is, I was quite young, so I saw some school girlfriends of mine.

22 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Mihajlovic, that by the middle of July, almost

23 all the Muslim men who had not already left Foca were arrested and taken

24 to KP Dom? Isn't that right?

25 A. No, there were Muslims. They left afterwards. They took buses

Page 5654

1 and quit work. Where did they go to? I don't really know because I did

2 not come often, and I know that my wife used to tell me and I did see some

3 of them, I mean, men. I don't know if they had ever been arrested, but I

4 did see Muslim men, which means that they were not arrested or had not

5 been arrested at all.

6 Q. Yesterday, sir, you said that the time when you did see Muslims in

7 Foca was May and June. You never mentioned any time after that. Are you

8 saying today that you did see them after that time?

9 A. Well, let me tell you, it could have been May, June, maybe you're

10 right, and maybe right into the early days of July. Now, I can't tell you

11 whether it was ten days more or ten days less.

12 Q. By the middle of August, by August 19th or so, the remaining

13 women, the Muslim women, had been deported out of Foca, right?

14 A. That is something that I have no knowledge of, really. I would

15 come to change clothes and have a bath. I would come back from the front,

16 and I had a small child, an infant, and I spent most of my time there,

17 roughly in that neighbourhood. Where there is -- where my house is,

18 there's only one Muslim house, which means that I was with my family, I

19 was helping my wife with the baby. You know how it is. You come from the

20 front, you were absent for about a fortnight, and you just stay home and

21 try to be with them as much as possible.

22 Q. So what you're saying is during this time when the Muslims were

23 disappearing from Foca, you didn't know about it, right?

24 A. No, no idea, really. In May, for instance, I spoke with Sikira

25 Cengic. Later on, of course, we had trouble with telephone lines and with

Page 5655

1 electricity because there were power cuts --

2 Q. Sir --

3 A. -- so that one really concentrated on one's own family's

4 well-being.

5 Q. The answer is simply yes, right?

6 A. I don't understand.

7 Q. Let's move on. You mentioned yesterday that you saw Milorad

8 Krnojelac around town during these visits back from the front line,

9 walking around Foca, right?

10 A. Well, yes, yes. Several times we'd come across one another, stop,

11 exchange a few words, inquire after each other's health. And I'd see him

12 with Zarko Vukovic, who was another math teacher, and some other teachers

13 from the elementary school.

14 Q. And Zarko Vukovic was at the same level, math teacher, as Milorad

15 Krnojelac, right? There was no difference in rank, let's say.

16 A. Yes, yes. They were both teachers.

17 Q. Zarko Vukovic also had a good reputation as a teacher, isn't that

18 right?

19 A. Yes, yes. Definitely.

20 Q. And do you know what his wartime assignment was?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Sir, in the times when you saw Zarko Vukovic with Milorad

23 Krnojelac, you didn't ask Mr. Vukovic what his wartime assignment was or

24 what he was doing these days?

25 A. I didn't, no, because teacher Zarko was never my teacher. I knew

Page 5656

1 him from my elementary school days, but he was never my teacher, so I --

2 we would say, "Good afternoon," "Good morning" to one another, and that

3 would be it, because he, he did not teach me, so my relations with him

4 were not the same as with the teacher Mico, with Krnojelac.

5 Q. When you saw the two of them together, were they wearing military

6 clothes, or civilian?

7 A. Civilian, civilian. That is, suits. Depended on the weather. At

8 times suits, at times just T-shirts, but civilian, definitely civilian.

9 Q. How many times did you see them during your visits back from the

10 front?

11 A. Well, what shall I tell you? I can't give you the exact number of

12 times, but teacher Mico, I saw him not less than 10 or 12 times during the

13 four years of the war. That is, we would just come across one another,

14 either around town or something, you know. Foca is a small town so

15 that...

16 Q. You would run into the two of them after, even after September

17 1992, during that period?

18 A. Believe me, it would be September or some other month. I cannot

19 really remember which months it was, but around town I would see them

20 quite often walk around the town. I think that teacher Mico, since his

21 house had burned down, I think that he was accommodated in the Zelengora,

22 in the hotel, as a refugee. That is somebody whose house had burned

23 down. And that is the centre of the town. So you come here and there are

24 the high street and you can walk around.

25 Q. Mr. Mihajlovic, please just answer the question. I'm trying to

Page 5657













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5658

1 establish the time period when you saw -- these times when you saw

2 Mr. Krnojelac. You went to the front in May of 1992, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And when did you return permanently from the front?

5 A. Permanently I returned after the Dayton Accords, so when was

6 that? 20th of November or something. And then the troops were gradually

7 released, so I returned sometime in early 1996. It was February or March,

8 thereabouts. That is, I was released, I handed over my weapons. It

9 depended on the year of your birth.

10 Q. Again, we do not need so much detail. I'm just asking you very

11 short questions so you can give us very short answers, okay? The 10 or 12

12 times that you saw Mr. Krnojelac spread out over those years, did you see

13 him during -- this is just yes or no, okay? Did you see him during the

14 summer of 1992?

15 A. I cannot really give you a definite yes or no. You want me to

16 tell you about June, July, August? Is that it? Summer? Is that what you

17 mean?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Well, I suppose I did see him but I cannot really say definitely

20 whether it was --

21 Q. In the fall of 1992, that is September, October, November, did you

22 see him?

23 A. Well, I suppose I did.

24 Q. In the winter, let's say December, January, February, did you see

25 him?

Page 5659

1 A. 1993?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Yes, that is I -- again, I suppose I did.

4 Q. Now, during those times when you saw Mr. Krnojelac, did he ever

5 once mention to you what efforts he was making to get out of his job

6 assignment and be reassigned to a different job? Did he ever once tell

7 you that?

8 A. As I've told you, when we met in the hospital compound, that is

9 when he told me that he was not happy with it.

10 Q. Sir, we are not talking about the hospital compound any more. I

11 am talking about all the other times that you saw him in the street. Did

12 he ever -- did he ever mention to you during those times what efforts he

13 was making, or in fact that he was making any effort, to get out of his

14 assignment?

15 A. Knowing teacher Mico, I believe he did. But we'd just meet and

16 say, "Hello, how are you?" "How are you doing?" And then we would go on.

17 Q. He didn't actually ever say anything like that, right? You're

18 just supposing. He never ever said that to you, did he? That he was

19 trying to get out of the assignment? Just yes or no.

20 A. We did not discuss that.

21 Q. Isn't it true that on September 1st of 1992, Zarko Vukovic was

22 reassigned to his old job as a maths teacher at the Veselin Maslesa

23 school?

24 A. Wouldn't know. My children were too small for school, so I do not

25 know who was a teacher and who was assigned where.

Page 5660

1 MS. KUO: No further questions, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination, Mr. Vasic?

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, only two

4 questions.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

6 Q. Mr. Mihajlovic, my learned friend asked you -- when my learned

7 friend asked you, you said that had it not been for the armed conflict,

8 those who did not respond to the mobilisation would have been called to

9 account pursuant to the law because that was a transgression, a breach of

10 the -- a violation of the law. Did you mean by this that they would have

11 been called to account under the laws of the former Socialist Federal

12 Republic of Yugoslavia?

13 A. Yes, yes. They would have been called to account pursuant to the

14 laws of the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia because at

15 that time, that was still the official state.

16 Q. When the combat operation started and the proclamation of the

17 Republika Srpska, could those laws also be informed in the territories

18 affected by war? Were they enforced?

19 A. I suppose so, but I don't really know. I'm not sure.

20 Q. Thank you. And just one question more. You said that you met

21 Mr. Milorad Krnojelac at the hospital gate at the end of your working

22 day. Now, what -- at what time, roughly?

23 A. Well, in peacetime I worked from 7.00 to 3.00, but since these

24 were extraordinary conditions, it wasn't -- there were no definite working

25 hours. If there was work to do, you had to stay there, so it -- after

Page 5661

1 1500, 1600, thereabouts.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mihajlovic. Your

3 Honours, the Defence has no further questions.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You are now

5 free to leave.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE HUNT: Is it Vitomir Drakul, your next witness?

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, that's right,

10 our next witness is Vitomir Drakul.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration in --

13 which is stated in the document that is being shown to you by the court

14 usher.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please. Yes, Mr. Vasic.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

22 Q. Good morning, sir. Would will you please tell us your full name.

23 A. My name is Vitomir Drakul.

24 Q. Sir, since we both speak the same language, I have to ask you to

25 wait a little after you hear my question so as to leave the interpreters

Page 5662

1 time to interpret my questions for Their Honours and our learned friends

2 from the Prosecution.

3 Tell us, sir, please, when were you born; the date, month and

4 year?

5 A. I was born in 1963 on the 15th of May, in Foca.

6 Q. And where did you complete your elementary and secondary

7 education?

8 A. I completed both my elementary and secondary education in Foca.

9 Q. And after completing the secondary education in Foca, did you then

10 enroll in university, and where?

11 A. When I completed my secondary education, I enrolled in mechanical

12 engineering faculty in Sarajevo and graduated in 1989.

13 Q. And did you get a job after your graduation? And when and where?

14 A. After graduating, that same year I found a job with Maglic, a unit

15 which was some four kilometres outside Foca.

16 Q. Are you married and do you have any children?

17 A. I am married. I do not have any children.

18 Q. What part of Foca did you live in, in 1992?

19 A. I lived in a part of the town called Cerezluk. I lived there

20 before and I live there now.

21 Q. Thank you, sir. Let us go back to the time between the 8th of

22 April, 1992, when the armed conflict broke out in Foca. Where were you

23 that day? Where were you when the fighting broke out?

24 A. As I've already said, I worked for Maglic, which is about four

25 kilometres away from Foca, and I was working.

Page 5663

1 Q. That is, you went to work that morning like any other day?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in your plant, were there any other workers who came to work

4 that morning?

5 A. I was then the chief of production, and I had about 158 workers.

6 In the first shift, there were about 80. That morning, we started work

7 normally.

8 Q. Among the workers who came to work that morning, were there both

9 Serbs and Muslims?

10 A. Yes. In the plant we had about, perhaps, 60 per cent Serbs and 40

11 per cent Muslims. I'm not exactly sure, but I think that's how it was.

12 Q. And on that day, how did you learn that an armed conflict had

13 broken out?

14 A. Well, we heard shooting. After that, I called my brother who also

15 worked in Maglic, but he was in a part of the company that was located in

16 the town. He wasn't there, so I rang up the director of the forestry.

17 Q. And did the director of the forestry tell you that fighting had

18 started in the town?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did you do then when you got this information?

21 A. After that, I consulted my manager, and at around 10.00, maybe a

22 little before that, I gathered together the workers and I told them to go

23 home.

24 Q. Did you then go home?

25 A. Yes, together with my colleagues from work, Ljiljana Rudanovic

Page 5664













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5665

1 [phoen] and Muharem Kovacevic.

2 Q. You went home?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That day or the following days, did you go to work to Maglic?

5 I apologise, but you do have to say yes or no because nodding

6 cannot be interpreted and cannot go into the record.

7 A. Well, from the 8th of April to the end of April or early May, I

8 did not go to work.

9 Q. And during that time, were you at home in Cerezluk?

10 A. From the beginning, that is, from the 8th of April until around

11 the 20th or the 22nd, I was at home. After that, after that I was

12 mobilised, and from that time until the end of the month, I was in the new

13 building of the secondary school.

14 Q. In that period, was there a day when you saw the Krnojelac family

15 arriving in Sreta Krnojelac's house?

16 A. Yes. Mico, his wife, and Spomenko, his eldest son, they came to

17 my neighbour's, the late Sreta Krnojelac.

18 Q. On that occasion, were they carrying anything?

19 A. No. They had only the clothes they were wearing.

20 Q. Do you know that when the conflict broke out, one of the first

21 houses to be set on fire was that of Milorad Krnojelac?

22 A. Yes. On that day I was at home, and I saw the house burning. I

23 saw that it was burnt down, and I saw Milorad Krnojelac.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, I think that your leader, Mr. Bakrac,

25 would be horrified by that last question of yours. It was leading in

Page 5666

1 every respect. If you want this witness to give evidence which has some

2 value, may I suggest you do not lead. We'll take a lot more notice of it

3 if he gives the evidence rather than you.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I apologise.

5 Q. And while you were in Cerezluk, did you talk to Milorad Krnojelac?

6 A. Yes. That was the day when his house was burnt down. I found

7 him. He was crying, and we talked, and we said, "Well, at least you're

8 alive."

9 Q. Thank you, sir. In this period at the beginning of the conflict

10 before you left to join the unit, did you have any other conversations

11 with Milorad Krnojelac?

12 A. To be quite honest, I don't remember, but the house of his late

13 brother and my house were very close by, some five or six metres apart, so

14 we did see each other and we probably did talk, or at least we said hello.

15 Q. Do you know what work assignment Milorad Krnojelac was given?

16 A. Yes. After the call-up, around the 20th or the 22nd, I was at the

17 secondary school where I spent some five or six days, and then I, too, was

18 given a paper assigning me to a work assignment, and that was sometime in

19 late April or early May. It was then that I saw Milorad Krnojelac and we

20 did talk then, and he told me that he had been assigned to work at the KP

21 Dom, to look after the property there. And we talked about it because it

22 wasn't really his province, and he was dissatisfied because, as a teacher,

23 he was being sent to work in an institution of that kind.

24 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned that you, too, were given a work

25 assignment. Where were you assigned to work at that time?

Page 5667

1 A. I was assigned to work in the company in which I was employed

2 because I was directly in charge of production, and I knew all the

3 employees and I knew where each of them lived, so it was easiest for me to

4 take part in organising the start-up or the resumption of production.

5 Q. And this work assignment, was this considered your wartime duty?

6 A. Yes. We all had work assignments. We received papers from, I

7 think it was then called the ministry. It was really the former

8 Territorial Defence. And these papers were signed by the chief, some sort

9 of chief, who was in charge of that, and each of us was obliged to respond

10 to that call-up.

11 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell us, in view of the fact that you, as

12 you said, were in charge of resuming production in the Maglic company,

13 what the needs of that company were for electrical power in order for the

14 plant to start production?

15 A. To start up the entire plant of Maglic, you would need about 6

16 megawatts, but at that time we did not start the whole plant going but

17 only a part of it. And for the part that we started, the minimum

18 requirement was about 2 megawatts, something like that.

19 Q. Did you get regular and sufficient supplies of power to function

20 normally?

21 A. No. We didn't have electrical energy at that time. Before the

22 war, Foca had electricity only coming through Gorazde. And even before

23 the war, this was a problem because if there was a power cut in that

24 direction, the whole municipality would be left without electricity. We

25 then tried to get some generators working so that we could start up

Page 5668

1 individual machines one at a time.

2 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, were you called back from your

3 work duties at this company and called back to go to the front line again?

4 A. Yes. After organising production, these lists, mainly of older

5 employees which the ministry of the army had given them permission or

6 approval to go to work, and after calling some retired persons and a

7 certain number of women to go to work at the company, I was reassigned

8 back to my unit, to the front line.

9 Q. Can you tell us how long you were at the front line that time and

10 whether you went back to Foca again?

11 A. From the 25th of May 1992, until the end of May 1994, I was at the

12 front line. So end of May 1994, until September of that same year, I was

13 at work duty again. And from September 1994, until January 1995, I was at

14 the front line. From January 1995 until sometime around the end of May or

15 the beginning of June, I was at my work assignment. And after that, I was

16 at the front line until, I think, a month after the signing of the Dayton

17 Accords. I was demobilised on the 13th of December, 1995.

18 Q. Does that mean, sir, that from the 25th of May 1992, until 1994,

19 you did no -- you did not go back to work in Maglic?

20 A. No, I didn't. Throughout this time, we were at the front line for

21 about 20 days at a time and then we would have two days' rest and we could

22 go home during those two days. And in 1993, in October, I was in military

23 detention for three days at the KP Dom. This was the only time I did not

24 spend in my unit during this period.

25 Q. We shall come back to this, but tell me, please, during your

Page 5669

1 visits back from the front line, when you went home to take a rest, to

2 take a bath, after being in the unit starting from the 25th of May in

3 1992, did you see Milorad Krnojelac in Cerezluk at his brother's house?

4 A. I didn't see Milorad Krnojelac but I talked to his late brother

5 Sreta and he told me that Milorad and his family had been accommodated in

6 the Zelengora hotel in Foca. That was the hotel where refugees and people

7 whose houses had been burned down were accommodated.

8 Q. And during this time that you occasionally spent time in Foca,

9 were you able to see how the town was supplied with food and other goods,

10 fuel, electricity?

11 A. Well, not only was I able to see it, I was able to feel it, to

12 experience it on my own skin. There was no food at all in the shops, and

13 if there was some on the black market, it was terribly expensive. As for

14 fuel, the military authorities were in charge of that and you had to have

15 a permit from them to get fuel, except on the black market, and then

16 again, the prices were extremely high.

17 Q. You have already told us something about electricity in connection

18 with production. What about the citizenry? What about households in

19 Foca?

20 A. I have already said that before the war, Foca had electricity

21 coming from only one direction, and when there was a cut, the workers of

22 Elektrodistribucija managed to repair a part of the grid, so about

23 one-sixth of the needs were supplied. And I don't remember whether it was

24 June or July, but then there were restrictions, and in 24 hours, there

25 would be about two hours in which households would get electricity. My

Page 5670

1 parents told me this because I wasn't there at the time.

2 Q. Thank you, sir. Let us now go back to what you told us a while

3 ago, that you were in the military detention unit. Can you tell us what

4 time this was and why you were detained there?

5 A. I was detained in late October 1993, I think it was the 25th, and

6 I was detained because I failed to report to my unit. I was punished for

7 that and put in military detention for three days.

8 Q. And where did you spend these three days of detention?

9 A. In the KP Dom in Foca.

10 Q. And who decided that you were to be detained?

11 A. The decision, or rather, the judgement was issued by the battalion

12 command. My unit in which I was, was part of that battalion.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has to

14 apologise because the document that has to do with this question has not

15 been translated into English. We have marked it for identification as ID

16 D149 and delivered it to the Prosecution and the Chamber, and as soon as

17 we receive the translation, we shall move for it to be admitted into

18 evidence.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, perhaps we should wait to see what the English

20 translation is, but we'll note that you will be providing it and then

21 we'll worry about admitting this document into evidence. We'll just keep

22 it for the moment. Yes.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would like

24 to ask the usher to show the witness the document marked ID D149.

25 Q. Sir, is this the decision or the judgement, as you called it, by

Page 5671













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5672

1 which you were punished with three days of military detention?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you get this decision before you were taken to the detention

4 unit?

5 A. No. I was in the town. It was during my rest period, and the

6 military police came to get me. I was then wearing civilian clothes.

7 They told me they had orders to take me to KP Dom for detention, and the

8 order probably came from the command of my battalion. I was then taken

9 there, and afterwards my father brought me my military uniform because it

10 was cold there.

11 And just before being released from detention, on the day I was

12 released, two men from the battalion command came to fetch me - I think

13 one of them was the security officer - and it was then that they handed

14 this document to me. And after that, they took me back. I went home to

15 get my weapons, and then they took me to my unit.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this is a

17 convenient moment for a break.

18 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn until 11.30.

19 --- Recess taken at 11.01 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic?

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Drakul, before the break, we were talking about the decision

24 that imposed three days of military detention on you. Did you give this

25 paper to the Defence team of Mr. Krnojelac?

Page 5673

1 A. Yes, but later.

2 Q. The document that I showed you today, is that a photocopy of that

3 decision?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, during your stay in military

6 detention within the KP Dom, did you ever see Milorad Krnojelac?

7 A. No. From detention, we could only see the guards, a few of them.

8 I think they were guards, in military uniforms. And when getting in and

9 getting out, we could see the guard by the gate.

10 Q. Do you know who ran the prison where you were serving your time?

11 A. No. As military detainees, we were kept separately, anyway,

12 separately from some kind of criminals who were serving their sentences.

13 I don't know who they were.

14 Q. Sir, during your stay in military detention, did you get food from

15 the kitchen?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us something about the quality of that food?

18 A. The food was more or less like the military food that we

19 received. All the food was just boiled, without any spices or anything.

20 It was mostly soya, different kinds of pasta, beans sometimes, peas,

21 things like that.

22 Q. You said that you completed elementary school in Foca. Which

23 elementary school did you go to?

24 A. I went to the Veselin Maslesa elementary school, from grades 1 to

25 8.

Page 5674

1 Q. Who was your math teacher in elementary school?

2 A. My math teacher was Milorad Krnojelac.

3 Q. What was the ethnic composition like, that is to say of the

4 teachers in your elementary school?

5 A. I think it was around 50-50.

6 Q. Can you tell us something about your perception of Milorad

7 Krnojelac as your teacher?

8 A. Yes. I was a good student, but I misbehaved pretty often. I

9 didn't have any problems with the curriculum but I did have problems in

10 terms of my behaviour. In elementary school, usually teachers would

11 reprimand such students by entering their name in the logbook and then

12 afterwards, at big staff meetings, it was decided what should be done with

13 such students. In one such situation, I think my name was in the logbook

14 for about 30 times.

15 And the only person who talked to me then, although I had a

16 home-room teacher of my own, was Milorad Krnojelac. He was the first

17 teacher who taught me until then who approached me as an adult - perhaps I

18 should put it that way - and talked to me that way, and that left a

19 profound impression on me. Afterwards, I finished school and I got my

20 university degree without any problems whatsoever.

21 Generally speaking, Milorad Krnojelac was perhaps the first and

22 only teacher where a grade had to be earned and not received on the basis

23 of previous grades, regardless of what they were like, good or bad.

24 Q. Can you tell me, please, whether he was well liked among the

25 students because of such characteristics?

Page 5675

1 A. Certainly.

2 Q. Do you know whether Milorad Krnojelac was a member of some

3 nationalist party?

4 A. I think, as far as I know, he was a member of the League of

5 Communists, and then after that, I don't think he was a member of any

6 party.

7 Q. Did you hear or see that he was politically active in 1991 and

8 1992?

9 A. If he was active, it only could have been in the ranks of the

10 League of Communists. As for the nationalist parties, we probably would

11 have heard about that because all of us in town knew who was active in

12 some nationalist party, although I personally was never a member of any

13 party whatsoever. Although, in terms of the hierarchy that then

14 prevailed, as a top-grade student when completing high school, I should

15 have been admitted into the League of Communists; however, since I come

16 from a family where both of my parents are believers, that obviously

17 bothered someone, so I did not become a member.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Drakul.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

20 further questions.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Cross-examination, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

24 Q. Good morning, Witness. You have to speak up so that the

25 interpreters can hear you.

Page 5676

1 Mr. Drakul, you said that you worked in the Maglic Company as the

2 chief of production of the plant 4 kilometres away from Foca, right?

3 A. Yes. I worked as the head of production at the sawmill because

4 Maglic then consisted of some 13 parts, and the plant that I worked in is

5 about 4 kilometres out of town.

6 Q. From where, in which direction out of town? Is it in Brod or

7 where?

8 A. Brod, Brod, yes.

9 Q. And you said that 158 workers worked in your plant of whom 40 per

10 cent were Muslims and 60 per cent were Serbs. What about the other

11 sections of Maglic; was it the same percentage of workers -- of ethnic

12 groups?

13 A. In the company that I worked in, there were five organisation

14 units. Out of these five organisation -- all of these five organisation

15 units made up one organisation, and then 13 such organisations made up all

16 of Maglic, so the grand total was about 6.000 workers. I really don't

17 know about the other plants because we worked in shifts, four shifts, I

18 think, and we had, say, 1300 workers, perhaps, at Brod.

19 Q. As head of the production of the sawmill, you probably knew

20 Mr. Safet Avdic, right?

21 A. Safet Avdic worked at the forestry unit. I knew that Safet

22 Avdic. And later, he was assistant general manager of Maglic for forestry

23 questions, I think. I'm not sure. But he worked at the administration

24 there.

25 Q. And you probably also knew Mr. Dzevad Lojo, the director of the

Page 5677

1 research and development at Maglic, right?

2 A. In Foca, there were two Dzevad Lojos. One Dzevad Lojo was a

3 director of a sector at Maglic and he also worked at the general

4 administration. We had very few contacts but I knew him by sight, since

5 he was the husband of one of my teachers, my Latin teacher.

6 Q. Do you know a person Juso Taranin, who was a machine operator in

7 Maglic?

8 A. No. Then he must have worked in the overhaul department for the

9 overhaul and maintenance of machinery.

10 Q. You said that you returned to work in Maglic after the outbreak of

11 the war in April 1992. Mr. Safet Avdic and Mr. Dzevad Lojo, they did not

12 return to their jobs, did they?

13 A. I came back to Brod. We ordinary mortals, if I should put it that

14 way, worked there, whereas the older workers and the managers worked at

15 the management building. The management building of Maglic was in Foca

16 and is in Foca until the present day. And that's where they worked.

17 Q. That was not my question. You have already told us where they

18 worked. My question was: They did not return because they were

19 dismissed; isn't that right? These two persons?

20 A. I don't know whether they returned but they didn't work there in

21 the first place. That's what I'm trying to say to you. We were in Brod,

22 4 kilometres away from Foca. The two of them didn't work there. They

23 worked at the management building in town itself.

24 Q. Mr. Drakul, you are not a normal worker in the sawmill. You are

25 actually a manager there.

Page 5678













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5679

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You know the other managers of Maglic, don't you?

3 A. I know other managers, yes, but as manager of the sawmill, above

4 me there is the director of the work unit, then there is the technical

5 director, the deputy director and the director of my plant. So we had

6 very few contacts with people who worked at the management in Foca. My

7 brother worked at forestry management, so during those three years while I

8 worked in the prewar period, we met at work only two or three times.

9 Q. Mr. Safet Avdic was in the forestry. Forestry has a lot to do

10 with sawmill, doesn't it?

11 A. It does have a lot to do with a sawmill but I told you, just

12 before the war broke out, I think that Mr. Safet Avdic worked in the

13 management building of Maglic. The director of forestry then was Milojica

14 Damjanovic. And I think, I'm not sure, that Safet was assistant general

15 director of Maglic, in charge of forestry, because the general manager had

16 two deputies and I think three or four assistant general managers. I

17 think that Safet, Mr. Safet Avdic, was assistant general manager for

18 forestry, until, well, perhaps January 1992.

19 In January 1992, the partial privatisation of Maglic was supposed

20 to take place so then an assembly of stockholders was held and they were

21 the ones who selected the board and the general manager, and now where he

22 ended up with this reorganisation, that I really don't know.

23 Q. If I understand you correctly, you know quite a lot about the

24 manager positions from before the war, but that the Muslims, the managing

25 Muslims, were dismissed when the war broke out, that you don't know?

Page 5680

1 A. Madam, Sabina, Vahida and Muharem Kovacevic, speaking of Muslims

2 now, if you were asking me about them, I could answer. But you are asking

3 a man who worked for -- you are asking me about a man who worked 4

4 kilometres away from me. As a soldier, I already told you I was called up

5 and I got an assignment there to go back to the sawmill and to organise

6 production there. I was there and my then director, and nobody else was

7 returned there because nothing else worked. And we did work then. I told

8 you we made lists which we submitted to the military ministry so that they

9 could release people in order to make it possible for the mill to work. I

10 was there from the end of April, beginning of May, until the 25th of May,

11 when I was sent to the front line.

12 Q. Let's then talk about your direct workers. You said that 150

13 workers were in your section, 40 per cent of whom were Muslim. They did

14 not continue to work there, right? They were dismissed because they were

15 Muslims; isn't that right?

16 A. I don't know about that.

17 Q. You don't know about your own workers?

18 A. The workers who came to work, who reported to work, yes, I know

19 about them, but the others I don't know.

20 Q. And Serbs reported to work, normal Serbs?

21 A. Those who received call-up papers from the military ministry.

22 Q. Do you know a person Refik Cankusic, a clerk in Maglic?

23 A. I don't, I don't.

24 Q. When you started to work in Maglic after the outbreak of the war,

25 after your few days in the high school, did you actually work in your

Page 5681

1 former position?

2 A. I did not go to Maglic a few days after the outbreak of the war.

3 I went only towards the end of April. Since there weren't enough people,

4 the military ministry did not want to release all of those who were

5 needed. I only participated in the organisation, that is to say, five or

6 six workers who worked on maintenance and also the workers who were in

7 charge of the big machinery. We were carrying out preparations. When

8 practically all the preparations were completed, then I was returned to

9 the unit once again.

10 Q. But it was in the sawmill that you worked, wasn't it?

11 A. Yes, the sawmill, sawmill. That's a big plant, and it consisted

12 of five smaller plants, that is to say, the warehouse, the place for

13 unloading logs, and then a few others; but I was in charge of one of

14 these, that is to say, the sawmill subunit in that sense.

15 Q. You mentioned that you tried to get generators to get machines to

16 work. Did you actually receive generators?

17 A. Well, I didn't say that we tried to get them. We already had

18 generators in Maglic; however, they were not working, so we tried to

19 repair them. We managed to fix one which was in my plant itself; however,

20 it was 200 kilowatt, but that is so little that it wasn't worth trying to

21 work -- starting to work because the installed capacity in the plant that

22 I worked in was 1 and a half megawatt, approximately, something like that.

23 Q. And beside this one that you fixed, did you obtain additional

24 generators?

25 A. No, no. As far as I know, no.

Page 5682

1 Q. You mentioned your brief military, you mentioned your brief

2 military assignment in beginning April 1992 at the high school. What kind

3 of an assignment was that?

4 A. Well, until about the 20th or the 22nd, I'm not sure of the date,

5 we were at home. And then this car, I don't know what it's called, it has

6 loudspeakers on it, but it went round calling us to report at the high

7 school, and that's a big building that was used as barracks. During these

8 four or five days, I can't remember exactly, all the soldiers assembled

9 there. And then I got call-up papers to report to work again, and then I

10 left. During those four or five days, we didn't do a thing. We were just

11 sort of hanging around the building.

12 Q. What kind of unit were you in during this four, five days?

13 A. In the unit there were about 40 of us. It was like a company.

14 Probably an infantry company because we had just got there. Afterwards,

15 this company was turned into an infantry company again.

16 Q. And the name? The name of the company, what was it? Was it

17 assigned -- to which battalion was it assigned to; do you know that?

18 A. 1st Company, the 1st Company, that's what it was called.

19 Q. And in the period from the end of May 1992 to May 1994, you said

20 you were also in a unit, and you were on the front line. Which unit was

21 that?

22 A. Also the 1st unit -- the 1st Company, also the 1st Company.

23 Q. And to which battalion did the 1st Company belong?

24 A. 1st Battalion.

25 Q. And I don't want to have any details about your front line

Page 5683

1 assignments, but in which area were you most of the time deployed, in

2 which area?

3 A. Well, I don't know what this place is exactly called, but we were

4 at a particular relay station which faces Osanica. It's between the

5 Gorazde and Foca municipalities. We were there between this month of May

6 and the other month of May that I mentioned. So I spent all those two

7 years there.

8 Q. And in October 1993, you were deployed in this area and you simply

9 didn't go there, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That means you're actually a deserter at that time, right?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Well, how do you call it when a soldier doesn't -- does leave his

14 company?

15 A. I reached agreement with the guys, because I had to make brandy

16 then, and that is not the kind of job you can interrupt. So I had to come

17 in late two days. I had to be late, two days late, and they allowed me to

18 do that. But then somebody else told on me, somebody from a neighbouring

19 unit. But we did not consider that to be desertion because my friends

20 took over part of my duties.

21 Q. And your punishment for doing that was three days, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where in the KP Dom were you placed; do you recall that?

24 A. Well, I'll try to remember. It seems to me that that building was

25 F shaped.

Page 5684

1 Q. Maybe I can help you with a photo. Just ...

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

3 show the witness photographs 7512 and 7513 of Exhibit 18, Prosecution

4 Exhibit 18.

5 Q. Mr. Drakul, look at the -- look --

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, there is actually nothing on the -- there

7 is nothing on the screen.

8 JUDGE HUNT: We have it on the video but not on the ELMO.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, yes, good.

10 Q. Please look at the upper photo, and is the place where you were --

11 the room where you were put in, is it -- can you see it on this photo or

12 was it somewhere else?

13 A. This is the entire building. As I have said, the building is

14 F-shaped and we were in this part here.

15 Q. Please point on the ELMO, not on the screen. We cannot see when

16 you point on the screen.

17 A. We were in this part here, here, here.

18 Q. So that's the ground floor?

19 A. That's where we were. No, not the ground floor. We were on the

20 first floor, to the left as you go down the passage, to the left, in this

21 part here. Above us, one or two floors above us were convicts.

22 JUDGE HUNT: The trouble is that where he's pointing is clearly

23 the ground floor, so you'd better try to work that one out.


25 Q. Witness, put the pointer --

Page 5685













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5686

1 A. Sorry, I was in that part but on the first floor.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. We have to get this ELMO working

3 somehow so that we can see it without it having to be on the video all the

4 time.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, it's now on video evidence, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, thank you very much.


8 Q. Mr. Drakul, please put the pointer simply on this room and leave

9 it there for a short time so that we can clearly see what you're pointing

10 out.

11 A. Madam, in this huge building, I wouldn't spend all that much time

12 to tell you exactly which room it was. I'm telling you I was in this part

13 of the building, this one here, on the first floor.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the first floor of

15 the building marked with number 2, and he is pointing at the right-hand

16 side of this protruding building, the last two windows.

17 JUDGE HUNT: But what room does that relate to, by reference to

18 the other plan?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It should be Room number 18.

20 JUDGE HUNT: 18, thank you.


22 Q. Do you recall that it was Room number 18, this room? Do you

23 recall that?

24 A. Could be. I don't really know. As I've said, it was on the first

25 floor as you walk up the stairs to the left. And in contrast with other

Page 5687

1 inmates, we were military inmates, so we were locked up all the time. We

2 were not allowed to go for walks, which other prisoners had, so that I saw

3 this building only when we went out for our three meals a day. And from

4 the window, I could see the yard.

5 Q. And you said that above you were convicts?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Serb -- of Serb ethnicity? Do you know that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in the building number 1, if you look back on to the photo, in

10 the building number 1, who was there? Who was detained there?

11 A. Muslims were detained in that building. And then I think some

12 organisations came from the UNHCR, I believe, and distributed to them and

13 the detained Serbs some parcels with toiletries and some other small

14 things. We were the only ones who got nothing, we who were in the

15 military detention.

16 Q. Did you see these Muslim detainees in the yard?

17 A. Yes. Of those I knew, there was teacher Huko, he taught Latin.

18 Now, what was his name? Husein Lojo, I think. We called him Hukica but I

19 think his full name was Husein Lojo. And I met him once as he was coming

20 out of the kitchen and we said hello to one another, and he asked me how

21 many days did I receive and I said three days, and he just waved his hand,

22 meaning, oh, that's nothing. And that was all contact that I had with

23 Muslims during my stay there.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Do you still want the photograph there?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, no, thank you. Yes, thank you.

Page 5688

1 Q. Did you see Mr. Safet Avdic among the detainees?

2 A. I did not. I'm telling you the only one I met was Hukica, because

3 we were usually the last ones to go for our lunch, dinner and breakfast,

4 and we were all separated. I mean Muslims, we in military detention, and

5 the convicts, if I may call them that.

6 Q. And Mr. Husein Lojo, your teacher, how old was he, approximately,

7 in 1992?

8 A. Well, let me see; 55, 60? I'm not really sure. I knew his son,

9 who was a few years older than I am, and that is how I'm guessing that he

10 was 55, 60, comparing him to my parents, to their age.

11 Q. And your teacher, Husein Lojo, was not a criminal, right?

12 A. I wouldn't know that.

13 Q. You wouldn't know that? But you knew him. He was a teacher.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. He was locked up there because he was a Muslim, right?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Mr. Drakul, you said that you lived in Cerezluk and you lived

18 actually very close to Mr. Sreta Krnojelac's house, right?

19 A. Right. I still live in the same house, which is right next to

20 late Sreta Krnojelac's house.

21 Q. And the family of Sreta Krnojelac is also still living in their

22 house?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. With the help of the usher, I would like to show you a photo of

25 the Cerezluk neighbourhood. It's the photo 7332 of Prosecution Exhibit 18

Page 5689

1 and -- please. It's unfortunately made from rather a distance and -- are

2 you able -- it's taken from the Foca high school, actually, looking from

3 the Foca high school on to your neighbourhood. Are you able to point out

4 your house or can we see it on this photo?

5 A. My house is not in this part of Cerezluk at all. It is over the

6 hill to the right of this picture, but you can't see it here.

7 Q. What do you mean by "over the hill"? Over -- you mean over this

8 hill that we see here?

9 A. I mean to the right as I look at this photograph, to the right, to

10 the right.

11 Q. Thank you. That's enough. I would now like to show you

12 Prosecution Exhibit 9/1. Would you please look at this map. This is not

13 -- this is -- you have to open the map, please. And you have moved --

14 you have to move it so that we can see the area below 11 -- this is okay.

15 Would you be able to point out the area where your house was and

16 Mr. Sreta's -- Sreta Krnojelac's house was? Is it there?

17 A. Only approximately because I cannot really say to a millimetre.

18 So our house is roughly here, and the photograph that you showed me was

19 showing this area, more or less, and our houses are here. That is right

20 in the middle of Cerezluk, and on that photograph showed the left part of

21 the locality.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing left from the arrow

23 attached to the number 11 and right above this kind of stadium that is

24 marked in this map.

25 A. That's right. Sorry, my house is above the stadium. And the

Page 5690

1 photograph that I saw was showing the part which is above the cemetery.

2 And it's about six or seven hundred metres away, as the crow flies.

3 Q. You said it's above the stadium. How much higher? What is the

4 level in metres that it is higher seen from the stadium or --

5 A. You mean the altitude above the sea level?

6 Q. Yes, yes, the altitude.

7 A. Well, I think it is 150 to 200 metres higher, thereabouts.

8 Q. Will you point out on the same map the house of Mr. Krnojelac, I

9 mean Milorad Krnojelac, in Donje Polje. Is it possible? Are you able to

10 show it?

11 A. This is a highly inaccurate map, but if I go by the looks of this,

12 they're across the bridge, then a street to the right, and it should be

13 somewhere here, if the map is accurate. It is a former Belgradeska

14 Street, not far from the blue skyscraper, as we called it in -- call it in

15 Foca.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at a street right

17 from the second bridge that is marked.

18 A. That's right. It passes by the carpentry unit.

19 Q. It's the fourth street, counting from the river; is that correct?

20 The fourth parallel -- the fourth street running parallel to the river.

21 Is that -- would that be correct? That is, at least, what I saw you

22 pointing at.

23 A. No. If you want me, I can draw it.

24 Q. You have the map.

25 A. To draw the whereabouts of Milorad Krnojelac's house, because I've

Page 5691

1 been at least a thousand times to the pub which belonged to his son. It

2 was in the same house.

3 So it's about -- you go to Donje Polje, move about 20 metres as

4 you cross the bridge, turn right, you reach the carpentry plant. There is

5 a junction of two streets, you move on down the street which goes

6 straight, and then to the -- on the right-hand side is Milorad Krnojelac's

7 house. I believe the former name of that street was Belgradeska, Belgrade

8 Street. If I had a more accurate map, it would be very easy for me to

9 show it.

10 Q. And the distance between your house and Mr. Krnojelac's house, how

11 many metres would that be?

12 A. Which Krnojelac, Sreta or --

13 Q. Milorad.

14 A. Milorad, I see. Well, it could be about 500 metres, give or take

15 a few. To be quite honest, I can't really judge it accurately.

16 Q. And Mr. Krnojelac's house is not on a high level, right? Not a

17 high altitude, right?

18 A. No, it is not. But my house is on an elevation, on a hill. The

19 part of Foca where I live overlooks the city, dominates -- the view from

20 my place dominates the city because you can see it well down there, the

21 whole area of the centre of the town.

22 Q. Mr. Krnojelac's house, Milorad Krnojelac's house, is not standing

23 alone. There are other houses around it, right?

24 A. Well, next to Milorad Krnojelac's house there was a house not as

25 high as his of a man, belonging to Ilija - I don't know what his last name

Page 5692













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5693

1 is - and they adhere together on one side. On the other, his son began to

2 build a smaller house, so that practically there were three houses which

3 stood as one whole.

4 Q. And between your house and Mr. Milorad Krnojelac's house, there

5 are a lot of other houses, right? Even bigger blocks.

6 A. Well, if you look at them from my house, you can see Milorad

7 Krnojelac's house very easily. Not only his house but all the other

8 houses, too. As I said, the -- there is about 200 metre -- we are on

9 about 200 metres higher ground than his house in relation to the river

10 Cehotina because his house is more or less level with the Cehotina River.

11 Q. But my question was that there are many houses between your house

12 and Mr. Krnojelac's house that could block your view, right?

13 A. I repeat, my house is on higher ground, and there are not all that

14 big high-rises in Foca, a hundred or 200 metres tall, to block your view,

15 so that from my house one can see. I mean, one can see not only Milorad

16 Krnojelac's house but practically all the houses in Donje Polje, and very

17 clearly at that.

18 Q. You said that you saw Mr. Krnojelac's house burning. At what time

19 was it burning?

20 A. I don't remember the date exactly. It could have been sometime

21 between the 10th and the 12th of April, but I'm not sure about the date.

22 However, his house burned down immediately after Momo Kovacevic's house

23 burned down, Milisav Zubar's house, Milisav the dentist's house, and a

24 whole row of houses. About five or six of them.

25 Q. At what time? Daytime? Nighttime? When?

Page 5694

1 A. It was by day, I think they started to burn sometime during the

2 daytime. And Milorad's house, I believe it was somewhere later on, and it

3 burned all night long because it was a big house, because I went to bed

4 and I don't know what happened after that.

5 Q. You said that you went to bed and it burned -- you said it burned

6 all night long and you went to bed. When did it start to burn? Was it

7 already later the -- later in the afternoon or when?

8 A. Well, to be quite honest, I don't really remember when it was. I

9 believe it was late afternoon. I'm not sure about that, however. But I'm

10 quite sure that it was on fire, and that it burned down. That I am as

11 sure as I'm sure that I'm sitting here now.

12 Q. You said that on that same day you saw Mr. Krnojelac and his wife

13 and their son -- and the son, one of the sons?

14 A. I did not say I saw them that same day. I saw them when they

15 came, when they arrived from their house to their brother's. And that day

16 when their house was on fire, I did see Milorad Krnojelac. The man was

17 sitting on the stairs of his neighbour's and weeping.

18 Q. Now, you have to explain something to me. I had asked you that

19 you -- I told you that you said you saw him on the same day when the house

20 burned, and then you said, no, you didn't say that, but then you repeated,

21 "And that day --" no, sorry.

22 A. Let me explain.

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. That day I saw Milorad, but I did not see his wife. And you asked

25 me if I saw his wife and his son, too, and I did see Milorad but not the

Page 5695

1 other two.

2 Q. Where did you see him exactly? What was he doing when you saw him

3 that day when the house burnt down?

4 A. When his house was on fire, he was at his neighbour's. I think

5 his name is Gojko Djurovic. My father was there, too. One of our

6 neighbours and four or five of those elderly men, Milorad's age more or

7 less, and they were just sitting there. And on the upper part of that

8 house there is a terrace which is somewhat slightly sheltered so that you

9 cannot see it, and there were four or five of them sitting there.

10 Q. This neighbour Gojko Djurovic, is that a neighbour in Cerezluk, or

11 to which neighbour do you refer?

12 A. Cerezluk, in Cerezluk. There was four or five men, elderly, more

13 or less Milorad's peers, who were there, and that is when I saw him.

14 Q. And is this, this Gojko Djurovic's house, is it close to your

15 house?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Is there some point in all of this,

18 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff? Is there some dispute that the house was burnt down

19 or that the accused was there? I'm not sure where we're going on this

20 minute examination of every word that's being said.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's a question of the reliability of this

22 witness.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. But how is this demonstrating his reliability

24 or its lack?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: At the end you will see it because the

Page 5696

1 witness --

2 JUDGE HUNT: I have --

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness said something quite different in

4 a statement that he gave to the Defence counsel.

5 JUDGE HUNT: All right, then.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Therefore, I want to go into some details.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I hope we get somewhere with this.


9 Q. When you saw Mr. Krnojelac together with Gojko Djurovic and the

10 other men, was that when he talked to you and was crying?

11 A. He was there already, and I came later, and that is when we talked

12 for a very short time, true.

13 Q. But this is the event when you said he was crying and told you

14 that his house was burnt down, is that -- is it?

15 A. It was when his -- while his house was on fire.

16 Q. Let me now read from the statement that you gave to the Defence

17 counsels' investigators. Do you recall that you gave a statement to the

18 investigators, Rada Sestovic-Krnojelac and Dundjer --

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I just heard a correction. It was an

22 interpreter's slip, so that is why I reacted. I just heard a correction.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Right.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


Page 5697

1 Q. You'll recall that you gave a statement to Dundjer Milenko and

2 Rada Sestovic-Krnojelac?

3 A. Yes, yes, I did make a statement to them.

4 Q. In February 2001, you recall that, that it was February 2001?

5 A. Well, we gave these statements in the coffee bar Gong owned by

6 Milorad's son, in the hallway, and there was Mr. Dundjer and Mrs. Sestovic

7 was there, and that is when we made statements. Mr. Dundjer practically

8 asked all the questions. Mrs. Sestovic would ask a question now and then.

9 Q. Let me now cite, it's paragraph -- it's the second page, paragraph

10 5, let me cite to you:

11 "In April, 1992, I came across Milorad Krnojelac in my

12 neighbourhood, in the part of the town called Cerezluk. He was sitting in

13 the garden in front of his brother's Sreta's house. I learned then that

14 his house had been set on fire and that everything that was there was

15 burnt except for the suit he had on."

16 Is that what you said in February 2001?

17 A. I made a statement, I was given this to read, I read it and signed

18 the statement, and what I just said is true. I saw Sreta twice,

19 practically the first time when he came out of his house, when he fled

20 from his house, and the second time when his house was in flames. That is

21 when I saw him in the neighbourhood, and I think it was at Gojko

22 Djurovic's.

23 Q. In this statement that you gave, you do not mention that you saw

24 Mr. Krnojelac's house burning, and you do not mention that you saw him on

25 just that day. You just mention here what I read to you. Is that right?

Page 5698

1 A. I did not mention -- or rather, during that interview to the

2 Defence lawyers, I did say that I saw his house burning, I'm quite sure.

3 I don't think that is in dispute. But how they worded it, I really don't

4 know that. But it was that day when his house was on fire that I saw

5 Milorad Krnojelac. I am quite positive about that.

6 Secondly, our houses are perhaps five, six metres away, one from

7 another, and how far does the property of one stretch and where another

8 man's property begin, I don't really know. So I wouldn't be able to say

9 whether it was Sreta or Gojko's, and I do not think that, apart from my

10 late father and Sreta, nobody knew where the boundary between our two

11 yards was.

12 Q. The sons of Milorad Krnojelac, they are in your age, right?

13 Approximately?

14 A. Yes. His oldest son was born the same year and he attended

15 another school, though, that was Ivan Goran Kovacic school, but later on

16 we attended secondary school together, in different classes, however.

17 Q. We would not need all the details, Mr. Drakul, just they are about

18 your age. And you socialised with them, right?

19 A. With Spomenko, yes, yes. We played football together.

20 Q. And Ms. Rada Sestovic-Krnojelac, is she also in your age and do

21 you know her well?

22 A. I think she's older. I think she's four or five years my senior,

23 and I know her because she's married to another neighbour of mine. Yes,

24 Mico's nephew. And for a while, they lived in Cerezluk too, so that I --

25 yes, I do know her.

Page 5699













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5700

1 Q. And the Krnojelac family moved into Sreta's house for a while,

2 right?

3 A. Well, the late Sreta and Arso, the third brother, lived in one

4 house which was divided into two parts, and at the beginning of the war,

5 apart from Sreta and his wife, his son Jovo lived there with his family

6 and so did Nebojsa with his family, and it was there that I saw -- I also

7 saw Momir, the husband of the Rada Sestovic-Krnojelac that I mentioned,

8 and then later on, Mico and his family moved in as well.

9 Q. These families, all these people, they moved and Mr. Krnojelac

10 moved to Cerezluk for safety reasons, right in the beginning of the war,

11 did they not?

12 A. Well, whether it was for safety, I don't know, but I assume that

13 was why, and whether it was really the first day of the war, I really

14 can't remember, but I know that they did come there. At that time, there

15 was gunfire, and we were all sitting in cellars, in basements, so if we

16 didn't have to go out, we didn't.

17 Q. Mr. Krnojelac did not come because his house was burned but he

18 came there much earlier for safety reasons, because Donje Polje was not

19 safe; is that right?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 Q. When you saw Mr. Krnojelac at the house of Sreta or at the house

22 of this other neighbour, what did he wear?

23 A. Well, he was wearing something but I can't really remember what,

24 so much time has elapsed. Trousers probably, a jacket. I can't remember

25 really.

Page 5701

1 Q. It was not a military uniform?

2 A. No, no.

3 Q. And in the following days, what did he wear when you saw him in

4 Cerezluk? Did he ever wear military uniform?

5 A. While I was in Cerezluk, before I was called up, I did not see him

6 wearing a military uniform, but I spent two years in the army and about

7 eight months in the front line in my own uniform. You understand?

8 Q. Yes. But I was asking you just about Mr. Krnojelac and the few

9 times that you saw him.

10 A. I didn't see him when he was in Cerezluk. In Cerezluk, while he

11 was there, when I would see him, two or three times I saw him, I don't

12 know exactly, he was wearing the clothes he had on when he left his

13 house. And later on, when I saw him during the war, I don't ever remember

14 seeing him in a military uniform.

15 Q. You said that you later learned that the Krnojelac family, Milorad

16 Krnojelac, had moved to the Hotel Zelengora. When was that?

17 A. I don't know exactly when they moved but I think it was in May or

18 June.

19 Q. 1992? And how long did he stay, do you know that, in the Hotel

20 Zelengora?

21 A. I don't know that because we didn't have any contacts afterwards.

22 Q. Also not with the sons?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you also not have any contact with the sons?

25 A. Oh, yes, with Spomenko, yes, but not with Milorad, but these were

Page 5702

1 contacts -- we would just ring each other up and speak briefly because we

2 were in different units.

3 Q. Did you ever hear that Mr. Krnojelac and his family -- Mr. Milorad

4 Krnojelac and his family moved into the apartment of Dr. Ismet Causevic?

5 A. I really don't know that. I know that he was in the hotel and

6 whether he moved to Ismet's -- that Ismet's, I really don't know.

7 Q. You said that Mr. Krnojelac became the warden of the KP Dom and he

8 only had to look after property. You said that, right?

9 A. I said that he was appointed as warden of KP Dom and to look after

10 the property, because in that period, there was no electricity, as I said,

11 and in all companies, preparations were being made to start work, and I

12 assume because there was a great need for electricity and the KP Dom was

13 not a production plant, so I assume that they felt the shortage even more

14 than we did. And in my conversations with the late Sreta, and also with

15 Milorad, when I talked to Milorad, he said that he had received his

16 assignment, it was a call-up, it was -- it came from the military

17 ministry, and one had to respond to it or be detained just as I was.

18 Q. You -- let us now be very precise because, in the transcript, it

19 says as your words, "I said that he was appointed as warden of KP Dom and

20 to look after the property." Is that what you say? He was the warden

21 and --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- one of the duties is property?

24 A. I said that he was the -- a warden at KP Dom and for protecting

25 property. What the organisation of KP Dom was, I don't know whether there

Page 5703

1 was a director. We called him warden. I don't know anything else. It's

2 true that I said he was assigned to be the warden of KP Dom for the

3 preservation of property, because there was danger of the property being

4 looted.

5 Q. Now, he was the only warden in the KP Dom, right? There was no

6 other warden?

7 A. I didn't understand your question.

8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac was appointed warden of the KP Dom, right?

9 A. I said that I heard from him that he was the warden of KP Dom for

10 the protection of property. What the organisation of KP Dom was, it

11 consisted of several units and I was there only when I was in military

12 detention. I was never there before or after that.

13 Q. When -- did you ever hear of any other warden being next assigned

14 at same level as Mr. Krnojelac? Did you ever hear of any other warden

15 being responsible for whatever section?

16 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I wonder whether you are implying

17 in that question something which this witness is not really in a situation

18 to understand: "At the same level"? Why don't you ask him about his

19 experiences inside the KP Dom or what he heard whilst he was living in

20 Foca? But at the moment, you are asking him something which I think is

21 beyond his competence. "Same level" is something which is a very

22 difficult question.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The problem is what I have is --

24 JUDGE HUNT: I know the problem you have but that question is not

25 going to resolve it.

Page 5704

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In the transcript, the witness said two

2 different things. He once says "he was the warden and for property" and

3 he said "is the warden for property."

4 JUDGE HUNT: I realise that.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's the problem.

6 JUDGE HUNT: But that question is not going to resolve that

7 problem.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, okay.

9 Q. You said that you had this conversation with him about his

10 position in the KP Dom. When did you have this conversation with him?

11 A. I have already said that this was when I, too, received my work

12 assignment, at the same time.

13 Q. That would be when, 22nd? Was it then the 22nd of April?

14 A. That was -- I said it was when I returned from my unit end of

15 April, early May when I returned from the secondary school. What the

16 exact date was, I don't remember.

17 Q. Did you have further conversations with Mr. Krnojelac on this same

18 topic of his position in the KP Dom later on?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you hear announcements of the Crisis Staff in Foca related to

21 the KP Dom?

22 A. No, I didn't. Madam, I was an ordinary soldier, and as for the

23 decisions that were made at a higher level, I can't know anything about

24 them.

25 Q. When you were in the KP Dom, when you were detained there, do you

Page 5705

1 know who was the warden then?

2 A. I don't know. When I was in town, the military police found me,

3 put me in a police car, and took me to the KP Dom. They led me through a

4 gate where I was met by someone who was probably a guard and who took me

5 to that room.

6 And then my family was told about this, and later on my father

7 came and brought me my uniform to put on because it was cold. And it was

8 only on the day that I was to be released that they came from the

9 battalion command and talked to me, and it was then that I received this

10 piece of paper with the decision in it.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions that we

13 have.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Mr. Vasic, any re-examination?

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Only two

16 questions.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Drakul, I would like to clarify to my learned

19 friend's question, at least, as it came out in the transcript, you said

20 that you saw Sreta Krnojelac twice, once when he left the house and came

21 to Cerezluk and the second time at Gojko Djurovic's. Did you mean Sreta

22 Krnojelac or Milorad then?

23 A. I meant Milorad. Maybe it was a slip. And when I said that I saw

24 them, I'm saying I saw them and talked to them, and when we were running

25 from house to house, I didn't feel it necessary to mention that.

Page 5706













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5707

1 Q. And my second question, sir: Are you aware that under the

2 decision on the organisation of companies and other organisations of

3 general interest for the defence of the Serbian republic of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina, the directors of institutions which are not part of the

5 unified technological system of interest for the republic and

6 organisations of special interest for defence, in other companies it was

7 the executive board or the executive committee of the municipal assembly

8 that appointed directors?

9 A. I heard that later on because that was how older people were

10 released from their military duty.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, not only is that a leading question, I

12 don't see how it arises out of the cross-examination. Is it the subject

13 of one of the many documents that were put in by the Defence in this case?

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence presented

15 this exhibit as D32 when Mr. Dundjer was examined. My learned friend

16 asked how the witness was given his work assignment, and it was in this

17 context that I wanted to ask whether he knew about this decision which

18 refers to directors.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I don't see what the value of it is at all if it's

20 going to be a leading question in that form. You really must understand

21 that it is for the witness to give his evidence and not for you to suggest

22 to him what evidence he should give.

23 Now, Mr. Bakrac and I disagreed fairly strongly at times about

24 what a leading question is, but he was very careful to ensure that the

25 Prosecution asked no leading questions. Sometimes misguidedly so. You

Page 5708

1 shouldn't ask them, either. And it's not just a question of technicality,

2 it's a question of what weight we give to the evidence when it is given.

3 Now, I have no idea how that question answers what was raised in

4 cross-examination, but if it is going to be relied upon, it is of little

5 weight to us if you have suggested to him what he should say. Now,

6 please, let's do this on a way which helps your client get the evidence in

7 in a way which will be helpful to us, please.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will try to

9 rephrase this question.

10 Q. Sir, do you know how the managers of institutions were appointed

11 in the municipality of Foca at the time -- at a time of imminent threat of

12 war or during wartime?

13 A. After I went to the unit on the 25th of May or later, in my

14 conversations with soldiers at the front lines, I learned that the

15 procedure for appointing a director was to have a decision of the

16 executive committee and the approval of the military ministry, the

17 municipal ministry. I don't know what it was called exactly.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Drakul.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no

20 further questions for this witness, thank you.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. You may -- thank you for giving

22 evidence. You may now leave.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE HUNT: The next witness is Mr. Zoran Vukovic. Not the one

25 who will be coming in from Scheveningen, I assume.

Page 5709

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to inform you that

2 at the request of the Prosecution, the Defence has agreed to change the

3 order, so we will hear Lazar Stojanovic first and Zoran Vukovic after

4 that.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, does the usher know that? Oh, right.

6 We'll wait for Mr. Stojanovic to come.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE HUNT: Would you make the solemn declaration in the document

9 which is being shown to you by the usher, sir.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

15 Yes, Mr. Vasic.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir. Please tell us your name.

19 A. Lazar Stojanovic.

20 Q. Sir, in view of the fact that we both speak the same language, I

21 will ask you to pause after my question so that the interpreters will have

22 time to interpret my question, and I would like to ask you to speak slowly

23 so that the interpreters can interpret everything you say.

24 Can you tell us on what date you were born and where.

25 A. On the 28th of April, 1946, in Foca.

Page 5710

1 Q. And what is your occupation?

2 A. I am a salesman.

3 Q. Where did you complete primary and secondary school?

4 A. In Foca. Secondary school? In Sarajevo.

5 Q. And where were you employed and from when?

6 A. In PP Perucica in Foca from 1965 until 1991.

7 Q. Are you married?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you have any children?

10 A. Two children.

11 Q. Would you tell me if you were mobilised.

12 A. Yes, I was.

13 Q. And where were you assigned to after your call-up?

14 A. To a military unit.

15 Q. During June 1992, did an unfortunate event happen to you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And were you in the military unit then?

18 A. Yes, I was.

19 Q. Can you tell us what happened in June 1992, something that has to

20 do with this event.

21 A. I had an accident. My gun went off and killed three men.

22 Q. After this event, were you arrested by the military police?

23 A. Yes, I was.

24 Q. Where were you taken after your arrest?

25 A. First I was taken to the police station and there I spent 13

Page 5711

1 days. After that, I was taken to KP Dom Foca.

2 Q. Did the military police take you to KP Dom Foca?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us how long you spent in KP Dom Foca?

5 A. Well, it was in two parts because I went to Bileca. So first I

6 was there until the 4th of October, and then I went to Bileca and I was

7 there until the 10th of May, 1993, and then I came back to KP Dom Foca.

8 Q. And when you came back to KP Dom Foca, how long did you stay

9 there?

10 A. From May 1993 to October 1993.

11 Q. And where did you go then?

12 A. I went to Sarajevo, to Kula.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Your Honours, I think

14 it's 1.00 and this is a convenient moment to take a break.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We will adjourn until 2.30.

16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.










Page 5712

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic?

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, before the break, we were saying that you were

5 detained twice at the KP Dom in Foca, and that in between, you were taken

6 to Bileca. Did you have a trial, then, in Bileca?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Which court were you tried by?

9 A. Military court.

10 Q. What was the sentence pronounced then?

11 A. Four years and ten months.

12 Q. Did that judgement become final?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. After this judgement became final, were you transferred to the KP

15 Dom in Foca?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you serve this sentence in the KP Dom?

18 A. Yes, I did, for a while.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

20 microphone.

21 JUDGE HUNT: One moment, sir. Would you move closer to the table

22 and we will get the usher to move the microphones a bit closer to you.

23 They are having difficulty hearing you.

24 You proceed, Mr. Vasic.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 5713













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5714

1 Q. You said that you served part of your sentence at the KP Dom.

2 What about the rest of your sentence?

3 A. At Kula in Sarajevo.

4 Q. Did you serve your sentence until the end at Kula in Sarajevo?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. When did you get out of the Kula prison in Sarajevo?

7 A. On the 5th of December 1995.

8 Q. Can you tell us what the nature of this institution was where you

9 were detained before your trial at the KP Dom in Foca?

10 A. I don't understand; "nature"? What kind of nature?

11 Q. Was this an institution of civilian or military nature?

12 A. I think it was military.

13 Q. After the judgement became final and after you came back to Foca,

14 did you serve your sentence in accordance with the final judgement in that

15 same military institution?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. During your stay in detention or later when you were serving your

18 sentence, did you see Milorad Krnojelac at the KP Dom in Foca?

19 A. Only once. He came to visit me.

20 Q. Did you talk to him then?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us what he said to you then?

23 A. He said to me, "Lazo, I can hardly wait to take my teacher's book

24 into my hands again." He apologised for not being able to invite me to

25 his office for a chat. He came to visit me and he brought me a pack of

Page 5715

1 cigarettes and we had a coffee together.

2 Q. Did he tell you why he couldn't invite you to his office?

3 A. Because he also had to seek permission.

4 Q. Did he say something to you as to why he had to seek permission?

5 Did he tell you something about his competences?

6 A. No, he didn't say anything like that.

7 Q. Did he tell you whether he was in charge of persons like you were,

8 persons who were serving sentences in accordance with final judgments

9 passed by a military court that were tried by the military authorities and

10 sentenced?

11 A. He said that he had no say whatsoever in this.

12 Q. During your stay in this military institution where you were

13 detained, were you visited by your wife and daughter?

14 A. Yes, but they had to ask the military authorities for permission.

15 Q. Do you know where they had to go to get that permit?

16 A. Velecevo.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

18 would like to show the witness document D50.

19 Q. Is that the permit that your wife got in order to be able to visit

20 you in detention?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Did you hand this permit over to Milenko Dundjer, the investigator

23 of the Defence team?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 5716

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask the usher to

2 show the witness document D51.

3 Q. Is this a permit allowing your wife and daughter to visit you

4 while you were in detention?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was this permit issued on behalf of the commander of the Foca

7 Tactical Group?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you hand this permit over to Milenko Dundjer, investigator of

10 the Defence team?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] We won't be needing these documents

14 any more. Thank you.

15 Q. Do you know who ran the military institution where you were

16 detained?

17 A. I'm not aware of that.

18 Q. Thank you. Who were you in contact, while you were there, from

19 the ranks of the prison staff?

20 A. With the guards.

21 Q. Do you know under whose command the guards were?

22 A. Military.

23 Q. From time to time, did the guards go to the front line?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. During your stay in the premises of the KP Dom Foca, were there

Page 5717

1 persons who were serving their sentences there and who had been sentenced

2 prior to the outbreak of the armed conflict?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were they staying in the same room where you were?

5 A. No, they weren't.

6 Q. Can you tell us where they were staying?

7 A. In number 19 -- no, sorry, they were in number 21. I was in

8 number 19.

9 Q. So they were in the same wing of this building but just one floor

10 below you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were there any such persons at the farm of the KP Dom?

13 A. I don't know about that. I didn't go there.

14 Q. Do you remember any persons who were serving their sentences in

15 accordance with the final judgements that were passed before the outbreak

16 of the war and who were there while you were?

17 A. I can't remember all of them but I know Milo Pekic. I know an

18 Aleksic. There was a person called Maric too. And I can't remember the

19 rest.

20 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, please, what the food was like in

21 this institution where you were detained?

22 A. Well, the food was not good. Bad in war conditions. But there

23 was as much as there was. There was a lack of bread a bit.

24 Q. Can you compare the quality of this food with the quality of the

25 food that you received before this happened to you, while you were in the

Page 5718

1 army?

2 A. What do you mean?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they did not understand

4 the witness's answer.

5 JUDGE HUNT: You'd better get him to repeat his answer because the

6 interpreters did not understand what he was saying.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I do

8 apologise. I didn't realise that it was not in the transcript.

9 Q. So could you please repeat what the quality of the food was in the

10 institution where you were detained as compared to the quality of food

11 that you got before this happened to you, while you were still in your

12 military unit.

13 A. Well, it was almost the same.

14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what the hygienic conditions were

15 like? Were they satisfactory?

16 A. The bathroom didn't work because it was frozen. Actually, the

17 pipes had burst, but we had hot water that was heated in caldrons and then

18 we would carry it from there whichever way people wanted to do it, so we

19 took it upstairs to the rooms and then we took baths in our bathrooms.

20 Q. Was there organised medical care?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How was it organised; can you tell us?

23 A. Well, there was this medical man who worked there, Gojko. He was

24 there every day. Whoever wanted to go would report to the guard, the

25 guard would take a list, and then the next day, this person would go for

Page 5719

1 this kind of medical consultation. And twice a week, doctors would come

2 from the hospital, twice a week.

3 Q. Tell me, during your stay there, were there any inhabitants of

4 Muslim ethnicity who were detained in this institution?

5 A. Yes, there were.

6 Q. Were they detained in the same rooms as you were?

7 A. No. They were separate, in a different building and in different

8 rooms.

9 Q. Did you take your food in the same kitchen?

10 A. We took our food from the same kitchen; we, the guards, and the

11 Muslims.

12 Q. Did you go to have lunch together?

13 A. No, we did not go together. Sometimes they were the first to go

14 and sometimes we were the first to go.

15 Q. Was the clinic in the part where the Muslims were detained?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you report for medical checkups?

18 A. I went several times, took my blood pressure, things like that.

19 Q. When you went for medical checkups, did you see persons of Muslim

20 ethnicity there, waiting for their turn for a checkup?

21 A. Yes, I did. I saw them several times.

22 Q. Did you hear or did you see Muslim detainees being taken out

23 during the night, taken to the administration building for beatings?

24 A. I never saw that.

25 Q. Did you hear sounds of beatings or moans?

Page 5720













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5721

1 A. Not that either, because my room was on the upper side, way out

2 there, so I did not hear it.

3 Q. You said on the upper side. Where were the windows of -- which

4 side did the windows of your room face?

5 A. The hills.

6 Q. Is that to say the opposite side in relation to the administration

7 building?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Did you hear some automobile passing by the KP Dom, one that had a

10 broken exhaust pipe?

11 A. I never heard that, never.

12 Q. Did you see Muslim detainees taken out for exchanges?

13 A. Yes, I saw that.

14 Q. Do you know who took them out for exchanges?

15 A. I don't know that. Probably the military police. They'd go out

16 there and ...

17 Q. Can you tell me when you were taken to the prison in Kula near

18 Sarajevo?

19 A. On the 4th of October, 1994.

20 Q. At the prison in Kula, did you see prisoners of Muslim ethnicity

21 who had been taken out for an exchange before that?

22 A. Yes, I did see them. I saw an acquaintance of mine, Rasim

23 Taranin.

24 Q. Was he later exchanged from the prison in Kula?

25 A. Immediately two days later. Two days after I came, he was taken

Page 5722

1 out for an exchange.

2 Q. After you got out of the KP Dom, did you see Milorad Krnojelac

3 again?

4 A. Yes. In front of the school over there.

5 Q. Did you talk to him then?

6 A. Yes, we did.

7 Q. Do you remember whether he said something to you?

8 A. He told me that he was transferred to the school, thank God, and

9 that he was working there now at the school.

10 Q. For how long have you known Milorad Krnojelac?

11 A. Well, since around 1980.

12 Q. How did you get to meet him?

13 A. Well, I worked across the street from the school at this trading

14 company across the street, so we were friends. We knew each other. We

15 went out for coffee, things like that.

16 Q. Can you tell me, in your opinion, what kind of a person is Milorad

17 Krnojelac?

18 A. Good.

19 Q. Thank you, sir.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

21 further questions.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Ms. Kuo.

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

24 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, you said that you've known Mr. Krnojelac for a

25 long time. Did you consider yourself friends with him or just

Page 5723

1 acquaintances?

2 A. Friends.

3 Q. Did you visit his house?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did your wives socialise with each other? Did you ever meet

6 Mr. Krnojelac's wife?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Did he know your wife?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you know Mr. Krnojelac's four sons?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Did you ever visit his son's cafe, the Gong cafe?

13 A. Well, yes, before.

14 Q. Before what?

15 A. Before the war. And now, too, when we were giving this statement.

16 Q. The statement that you gave to the Defence investigator, including

17 a relative of Mr. Krnojelac, was actually taken inside the cafe of

18 Mr. Krnojelac's son; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So you have been at his house, right? I mean, the cafe is

21 actually in Mr. Krnojelac's house.

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. And you've agreed to come here today to help him, right, because

24 of your friendship?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5724

1 Q. When you were -- when were you mobilised?

2 A. 1992.

3 Q. When?

4 A. On the 7th of April.

5 Q. The war in Foca started on the 8th of April, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But already a day before the war, you were mobilised?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. From whom did you get the mobilisation call?

10 A. The military department.

11 Q. Where did you have to report?

12 A. To this part of town up there.

13 Q. Up where?

14 A. It's called Cerezluk.

15 Q. And there were several other Serbs who were called on that same

16 day for mobilisation, right, to the same place?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where did you spend that night and what did you do?

19 A. Well, we were there only in the evening a bit and then we went

20 back to our homes.

21 Q. And when you reported, you were also issued weapons, right, in

22 preparation for fighting?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Early the next morning, the fighting in Foca began, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5725

1 Q. You participated in that fighting, didn't you?

2 A. I was at the signals headquarters.

3 Q. Where was that located?

4 A. Also in Cerezluk.

5 Q. You're aware that the Serb soldiers were attacking Muslim

6 neighbourhoods, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And Muslim houses were being burned as well as mosques, right,

9 during this fighting?

10 A. Yes, but Serb ones too.

11 Q. Well, the Serb soldiers weren't attacking Serbs.

12 A. Well, Serbs weren't but Muslims were.

13 Q. Within less than ten days, Foca was firmly in Serb hands, right?

14 The Muslims had lost; isn't that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And after that time, you stayed in the Foca area, still in

17 military service; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Muslim houses and mosques continued to be destroyed during

20 that time; isn't that right? Let's say late April through May?

21 A. I wouldn't know that because I went to the positions later on.

22 Q. So you stayed at the signalling place, the signals headquarters,

23 this whole time?

24 A. No. I went up there because the signals headquarters moved. It

25 wasn't always in one and the same place.

Page 5726

1 Q. Could you explain to us exactly what a signals headquarters is and

2 what you did there?

3 A. That is in a battalion, which is a mobile battalion.

4 Q. And what do they do? Or what did you do, more specifically?

5 A. Well, I had my soldiers who went around the ground with those

6 radio stations.

7 Q. And where did it move to? You said it moved around.

8 A. Brdo, Ustikolina, and so on.

9 Q. Now, it was while you were still in military service that your

10 firearm discharged, you said accidentally, and killed three people,

11 right? You were still in military service?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The three people who were killed were Serb soldiers, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And so you were arrested by Serb military authorities and held to

16 be investigated by Serb military authorities, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What were you charged with, formally? What crime?

19 A. Manslaughter.

20 Q. And did the authorities claim that you had fired your firearm

21 accidentally or did they think that you had done it deliberately?

22 A. They claimed.

23 Q. What did they claim?

24 A. That I had done it accidentally, because there were eye

25 witnesses.

Page 5727













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5728

1 Q. Did you contest the charges and say that you did not do it, or you

2 were not criminally responsible?

3 A. No.

4 Q. So did you plead guilty and acknowledge that, in fact, that's what

5 happened?

6 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think you can plead guilty in the civil

7 system, Ms. Kuo.

8 A. Yes, yes, I did.

9 JUDGE HUNT: You may be able to before a military, but you

10 certainly can't --

11 MS. KUO: Yes. Well, this is a military court, and I think --

12 JUDGE HUNT: All right. The witness says he did, so that's got it

13 cleared up.

14 MS. KUO:

15 Q. In other words, you admitted what the authorities claimed you did

16 is what you did, right?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. When you were taken to the KP Dom in June of 1992, it was

19 approximately the 18th of June; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you were kept there during, let's say, the pre-trial or during

22 the investigative stage, before a sentence was pronounced, from 18th of

23 June until the 4th of October, 1992, right?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What part of it is no? You were not detained during that time?

Page 5729

1 A. I was in Bileca for a while. I wasn't in the KP Dom in Foca all

2 the time.

3 Q. When were you in Bileca?

4 A. Between the 5th of October until the 10th of May, 1993.

5 Q. My question focused on the time before that. Until the 4th of

6 October, you were in the KP Dom, right? Yes?

7 And so let's speak about the two different times. I'll follow

8 what Mr. Vasic did, that there were two different times you were kept at

9 KP Dom. Let's focus first on the first time you were kept there, from

10 June until October of 1992. You were held there under military authority,

11 right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. There were military criminal charges pending against you, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you were trans -- and it was because you had -- you were

16 responsible for the deaths of three military people, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The rules that you had violated were military rules, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And when you were transferred out of KP Dom in October of 1992, it

21 was to a military prison to await a trial before a military court, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you yourself were an active soldier at that time as part of

24 the military, right, as of 7th of April, 1992?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5730

1 Q. When you were at the KP Dom again that first time, were you housed

2 with other military, other Serbs who had been serving or were serving in

3 the military?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Of that group, there were not only people like you who had been

6 charged with military crimes, but there were also people who were there

7 for breaking military disciplinary rules, right, like not reporting to a

8 call-up or not reporting to their units?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And in that group as well were people who were serving their

11 military sentences, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you were all housed in the same room, the Room 19 that you

14 described earlier, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Room 21 was where the civilians were housed, people who had been

17 convicted in civilian courts of civilian crimes, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were there women housed in Room 21, or was it all men?

20 A. Men only.

21 Q. Do you know where the women who had been convicted of civilian

22 crimes were housed?

23 A. I don't know that.

24 Q. Do you know where military people, let's say like yourself at that

25 time, where they were kept before the war if they had been charged with a

Page 5731

1 military crime?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. During the time, again, from June till October of 1992, you were

4 kept in Room 19 continuously, right? There weren't breaks when you left

5 the KP Dom; you were there every night.

6 A. For a while, they had me transferred to Velecevo.

7 Q. When was that?

8 A. August, I think. 2nd of August.

9 Q. How long did you stay at Velecevo?

10 A. Four or five days.

11 Q. And then you were returned to KP Dom, right?

12 A. Then I went -- then I joined the army again, and the military

13 police came again and took me back to the KP Dom.

14 Q. I don't understand. When you were at Velecevo, weren't you still

15 part of the army? How did you go to Velecevo? Did someone transfer you?

16 A. Yes, but the military police transferred us.

17 Q. So when you were at Velecevo, you were still in custody. You were

18 just housed for four or five days someplace else?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. Now, during the times that you were at KP Dom in 1992, were there

21 times at night when you could see lights on in the administrative

22 building?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you able to see the administrative building at night?

25 A. No, because the room faced the side opposite from the

Page 5732

1 administrative building.

2 Q. Room 19 is made up of how many different bedrooms?

3 A. One.

4 Q. It's all one room?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. But there's a room that faces, let's say, the front, which is

7 where you might be able to see the administrative building. There's a

8 room -- there's a subroom of Room 19 where there were windows that faced

9 into that area, right?

10 A. I can't remember.

11 Q. How many people were in Room 19 with you?

12 A. It all depended when somebody would commit a violation, of how

13 many people had been sentenced by military authorities. It wasn't the

14 same every day. Somebody would transgress, fail to report to a call-up,

15 and then they would bring him in for two or three days and take him away

16 again.

17 Q. What was the lowest number of people in your room?

18 A. Two, three at times, at least.

19 Q. What was the largest number?

20 A. Well, the largest, just as many as there were beds. I can't

21 remember exactly.

22 Q. Was it more than ten?

23 A. There were, there were.

24 Q. Was it more than 20?

25 A. I couldn't know that. I don't know.

Page 5733

1 Q. But it -- there were always enough beds for everybody in the room,

2 right?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the

5 witness shown photograph 7513 from Exhibit 18, and that's the bottom

6 photograph.

7 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, can you -- do you recognize this building, first

8 of all, being the wing where you were housed, where Room 19 was located?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you show us where Room 19 was located? And you'll have to

11 use a pointer on the ELMO rather than on the computer screen.

12 A. Here, but on the other side, as far as I can remember.

13 Q. You said "here" but could you just point your pointer on where

14 "here" is so we have a clear record? And could you -- you are pointing

15 to one window on the far right. How far over did Room 19 extend?

16 A. And this window, too.

17 MS. KUO: For the record, the witness is showing one floor above

18 the ground floor, the first and second windows, starting from the right.

19 Q. Witness, thank you. Mr. Stojanovic, you said that it was "here"

20 and you pointed to those two windows, "but on the other side." Are you

21 saying that there were no windows -- you still maintain there were no

22 windows facing on to the courtyard but only on to the hills? There were

23 windows in Room 19?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. I'd like to have the assistance of the usher again and this will

Page 5734













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5735

1 be Exhibit 6/3. This is a sketch of the KP Dom which we've been using

2 throughout the course of the trial. Room 19 is marked in the upper

3 right-hand corner. Do you see Room 19 on this sketch?

4 A. I do, I do.

5 Q. Has that been accurately marked as Room 19?

6 A. I think it's this one up here.

7 Q. And you pointed to the rectangle that is the -- in the upper

8 right-hand corner. There is an arrow that goes -- that's in the lower

9 left-hand corner of that box, and just below that there is a square, also

10 with an arrow in it. That square underneath what you pointed out, wasn't

11 that part of Room 19 also?

12 A. I think it is. I'm not sure.

13 Q. And there is no corridor that faces out into the courtyard,

14 right? The windows that you pointed out just a moment ago on the

15 photograph actually belong to Room 19; isn't that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. So when you're in Room 19, there are windows that face

18 the hills but also two windows that face into the courtyard, toward the

19 administrative building; isn't that right?

20 A. I wouldn't know that.

21 Q. Sir, you were in Room 19 from June until October of 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That's four or five months. And you don't know if there were

24 windows that faced into the courtyard?

25 A. Yes, but I left the room eight years ago and I can't remember any

Page 5736

1 more.

2 Q. But now that you've seen a photograph as well as a sketch, doesn't

3 that help you remember? It's a room that you were in every day, except

4 four or five days, for about five months. Surely you remember that there

5 were windows that face into the courtyard.

6 A. Not in my room. I don't know. I was there, next to the hill.

7 Q. In the evenings at KP Dom, it was very, very quiet; isn't that

8 right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In fact, it was so quiet that you could hear a cat walk by, isn't

11 that right? Maybe that's being a little bit figurative but that's how

12 quiet it was.

13 A. Well, it wasn't all that much.

14 Q. It wasn't all that much what?

15 A. It wasn't all that quiet, because when troops arrive from the

16 ground, they make noise.

17 Q. And when the troops arrived, it was in the evening?

18 A. By and large, yes, in the evening.

19 Q. Sometimes some of these troops entered the KP Dom, right?

20 A. I wouldn't know that. Those who were incarcerated, yes. As for

21 others, I don't know if they came in.

22 Q. When you heard these troops making all this noise, how far away

23 were they? Could you tell?

24 A. Well, they would pass by in trucks. I don't know how many,

25 because coming back from the ground, they would -- they would make merry.

Page 5737

1 Q. These trucks with troops coming through would be on the road

2 between the KP Dom and the river Drina, right?

3 A. Well, some pass by between the KP Dom and the Drina river, and the

4 others took the other road, depended on where they were headed for, Donje

5 Polje or Gornje Polje, for a rest.

6 Q. There was no road passing in the hills where your window

7 supposedly faced, right? The road what you're referring to or the roads

8 that you're referring to are all in the front of KP Dom? Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And when these troops passed in the middle of the night, the sound

11 that you would hear would be people yelling, and as you said, making

12 merry, correct? You could hear that? Mr. Stojanovic, you've just

13 described it to us, so that's what you heard, right?

14 A. Well, yes, they sang.

15 Q. You could hear this even though your window, as you say, faced the

16 hills, right?

17 A. Yes. Well, I could, if they arrived early enough.

18 Q. So when they were screaming and beatings happening closer by, that

19 is, in the administrative building, surely you could hear that, too,

20 right?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You couldn't hear it?

23 A. Well, if it did happen, it was inside, and this was outside.

24 Q. So you are not ruling out the possibility that there were beatings

25 in the administrative building at night, but you're just saying you never

Page 5738

1 heard it, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, you mentioned that your wife and your daughter

4 were able to visit you in July of 1992, and the Exhibits D50 and D51 were

5 shown to you earlier. Those were certificates that your wife gave to you,

6 right, that she obtained in order to visit you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. One of them is dated July 2nd of 1992, and the other one is dated

9 July 11th. And I noticed that the one that's dated July 2nd is from the

10 Serbian Autonomous Region of Herzegovina, Serbian municipality of Foca,

11 operative staff, and the one that's dated the 11th of July is simply Foca

12 Tactical Group.

13 Do you know why she had to obtain permission from two separate --

14 or why these two different documents were issued by two separate entities?

15 A. I don't know that.

16 Q. Did your wife and daughter actually visit you? Were they able to?

17 A. Oh, yes, yes.

18 Q. How many times did they visit you?

19 A. Well, I don't know. Twice a week.

20 Q. They were able to bring you clothing and food?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What room did you meet in when they visited?

23 A. There was a special room number.

24 Q. What was the room number?

25 A. Either 3 or 4, I'm not sure. It was a long time ago. I can't

Page 5739

1 remember it, really.

2 Q. This was on the ground floor of the administrative building,

3 right?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have this

6 witness shown Exhibit 6/1.

7 Q. Again, Witness, this is a sketch of the KP Dom, this time showing

8 the ground floor of the administrative building. Could you point out the

9 room where your wife and daughter visited you, please.

10 A. Here.

11 MS. KUO: For the record, the witness is pointing --

12 A. I think it is this one. I'm not sure.

13 MS. KUO: The witness is pointing to the third room on the right

14 wing of the administrative building, and it's marked soba 2. Thank you.

15 Q. Was your family able to visit you when you were detained at the KP

16 Dom serving your sentence beginning in May of 1993? Were they able to

17 visit you then as well?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did they get permission from the same entity or entities to visit

20 you, or was it the same permission that extended, that these papers --

21 A. It was the same.

22 Q. When you were returned to the KP Dom to serve your sentence, were

23 you also in Room 19 again?

24 A. Well, we changed, in 20, 21. We moved. It wasn't always in the

25 same room.

Page 5740

1 Q. But when you moved, as you described it, you were always also with

2 the other Serb military prisoners, right?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. You described an incident where Milorad Krnojelac visited you, as

5 you said. When was that?

6 A. It was before I came -- or, rather, before I left for Bileca.

7 Q. Approximately what month was it?

8 A. I can't remember. I don't know.

9 Q. Had you been in the KP Dom for a while by that point?

10 A. Yes, yes. A long time.

11 Q. You were surprised to see him, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Up till that point, you had not seen him at the KP Dom, right?

14 A. No, I hadn't.

15 Q. So he was the one who knew that you were incarcerated there and

16 asked to see you, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you saw him, you were brought to the administrative building

19 by a guard, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were you told by that guard why you were being brought to the

22 administrative building?

23 A. He told me that I had a visitor.

24 Q. And you were taken to the ground floor of the administrative

25 building, right?

Page 5741













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5742

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But it wasn't the same room that you just pointed out to us where

3 your wife and daughter visited you, was it? It was a different room.

4 A. It was the same room.

5 Q. The same room?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you sure -- you're sure about that?

8 A. I'm sure.

9 Q. Did Milorad Krnojelac tell you where his office was located?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So you don't know whether Milorad Krnojelac had an office on that

12 same floor of the administrative building, do you?

13 A. I don't know, but I know -- I knew from before that the warden's

14 office was on the second or third floor, because I used to be a tradesman

15 and I would come to the warden or the director to have papers signed.

16 Q. That would have been the office that Milorad Krnojelac used while

17 he was warden, right?

18 A. Probably. I don't know.

19 Q. You knew he was warden of KP Dom? That's why you mentioned the

20 warden's office just now?

21 A. The warden or the director. I would go to see them.

22 Q. You knew at that time that Milorad Krnojelac was the warden, or if

23 you want to use the word "director," warden or director of KP Dom at that

24 time, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5743

1 Q. So he didn't actually come to visit you, did he? He was already

2 there.

3 A. No, he didn't.

4 Q. So earlier, when you said he came to visit you, that's not true,

5 is it? He didn't visit you.

6 A. He came to the room for visitors downstairs, and he didn't do that

7 before. It was just that once.

8 Q. You stated in your statement to the Defence investigators that

9 Milorad Krnojelac told you that he could not invite you or order that you

10 be taken to him; is that right? Did you ever say that?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. But in fact, the visit that you just described was on the request

13 of Milorad Krnojelac, right?

14 A. I don't know that.

15 Q. You didn't ask to see him, did you?

16 A. No, no, I didn't.

17 Q. And you also said in your statement to the Defence counsel that

18 Milorad Krnojelac told you if he wished to see you, that he had to come on

19 a visit. He never said that, did he? That he had to visit you? That's

20 not accurate, right?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Where was he coming from, to visit you? Not from the outside.

23 A. From his office upstairs.

24 Q. Do you know why he was not able or didn't wish to have you visit

25 him in his office? I mean, the warden's office, you've seen it, it's a

Page 5744

1 nice, big office with nice furniture. Did he ever tell you why he

2 wouldn't see you in his nice office?

3 A. No, I don't know that.

4 Q. How often did you see or meet with Milorad Krnojelac at the KP

5 Dom?

6 A. Only once. That time when there was this visit.

7 Q. He knew that you were being detained there, and did you explain to

8 him why?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. What was his reaction?

11 A. Well, he told me not to worry, that everything would be all right,

12 and things like that.

13 Q. After that -- and you were good friends with him, right? You told

14 us at the beginning that you were friends.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. After that, he never ever called you again to give you cigarettes

17 and coffee?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Again, when you were returned in May of 1993, Mr. Krnojelac never

20 called you for another visit, right?

21 A. We didn't see each other again. I didn't see him again.

22 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac tell you why he had called you to see him that

23 one time, what the purpose was?

24 A. As a friend, and to give me advice, to tell me not to worry.

25 Q. You said that during that conversation, he told you that he

Page 5745

1 couldn't wait back -- couldn't wait to go back to teaching. Did he tell

2 you what efforts he was making to get back to teaching?

3 A. He didn't tell me that. I don't know.

4 Q. And he never said anything about not -- about trying to refuse to

5 take this assignment, right? He never said anything like that either, did

6 he?

7 A. He told me that he had been forced to accept it.

8 Q. In what way was he forced?

9 A. It was an order.

10 Q. He didn't say anything further about trying to get things changed?

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. You never asked him and he never told you; is that how it went?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions about the conditions while you

15 were detained at KP Dom. You said that you ate from the same kitchen as

16 the staff and as the Muslim detainees. Do you know if you had the same

17 food as the staff members, exactly the same food?

18 A. Yes. It was all cooked in the same pot, and they -- the Muslims

19 also shared that food.

20 Q. You never actually saw the staff members eating, did you?

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 Q. You never saw --

23 A. I apologise. What staff?

24 Q. The staff members that you described earlier as having the same

25 food as you. You never actually watched them eating, right?

Page 5746

1 A. Oh, yes. Sometimes they ate with us.

2 Q. So you did see what the staff members ate and it was exactly the

3 same?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And it was exactly the same amount?

6 A. The same, the same.

7 Q. When you went to eat, it was always room by room, right? So you

8 ate with everybody else from Room 19 or whatever room you were detained

9 in?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You never ate all together, everybody in every room at the same

12 time? There simply was no room in the canteen, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You never actually saw what the Muslim detainees -- you never

15 actually saw the Muslim detainees eating, did you?

16 A. No, because we didn't go to eat together with them.

17 Q. You have no idea if they ate the same food or the same amounts as

18 you, do you?

19 A. No. I didn't watch them eating.

20 Q. So you don't know that?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. Did you ever -- were you allowed to eat as much bread as you

23 wanted?

24 A. No. There wasn't enough.

25 Q. How much bread were you allowed to eat?

Page 5747

1 A. What they gave us. The cook --

2 Q. What did they give you?

3 A. Well, it depended on how much there was. Sometimes it was one

4 slice, sometimes two.

5 Q. Were there -- was there ever a time when lamb's meat was served?

6 A. No.

7 Q. There was never a time when you were served lamb's meat while you

8 were detained at KP Dom, either the first or the second time?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. You're absolutely sure about that?

11 A. I'm sure.

12 Q. Were you allowed second helpings at meals when it was possible?

13 A. Well, I never asked for a second helping. What I got was enough

14 for me. I don't know.

15 Q. Did you see the other Serb detainees or prisoners get second

16 helpings, if they wished?

17 A. I don't know that.

18 Q. Well, the people that you were eating with, the ones that came

19 from the same room, didn't you see them get second helpings? You ate with

20 them every day for five months.

21 A. Well, sometimes they did and sometimes they didn't. I don't know.

22 Q. So sometimes --

23 A. It depended on how hungry they were. You know, if someone is

24 hungrier, he eats more.

25 Q. So if somebody was hungry, he was allowed to get more food, right?

Page 5748













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5749

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You described having some hot water. Was that during the first

3 time in 1992 when you were detained, or only in 1993 that you were able to

4 get hot water from a caldron?

5 A. The first and the second part.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, have you finished with the food issue?

7 MS. KUO: I believe that I had asked the questions that I wished

8 to.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Do you mind if I ask something whilst we're on that

10 subject --

11 MS. KUO: Certainly, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: -- before you proceed to this.

13 Sir, you told us that you were in the KP Dom for two periods.

14 One, I think, was for four months and the other was for five months. Is

15 that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Did you lose any weight during that period?

18 A. I did a little.

19 JUDGE HUNT: How much? What sort of proportion of your weight did

20 you lose?

21 A. I don't know. I didn't weigh myself.

22 JUDGE HUNT: But your description of it, "a little," means that

23 you did not lose very much weight. Is that so?

24 A. Not while I was in KP Dom, but when I went to Sarajevo, there I

25 lost weight.

Page 5750

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

2 MS. KUO:

3 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, do you -- the hot water was made available to the

4 Serb detainees, right, not to the Muslims?

5 A. To all, whoever wanted it.

6 Q. You were not detained in the KP Dom during the winter from 1992

7 till 1993, right? That was the time that you were at Bileca?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So the hot water that you're describing -- and then in the --

10 excuse me. In the summer of 1992, it was possible to bathe with cold

11 water, right? You didn't have hot water during that summer, did you?

12 A. Well, water is cold there and you -- water in Foca is very cold if

13 it's cold, and it has to be heated up a little; otherwise, you can't bathe

14 in it. So it has to be warmed up at least a bit.

15 Q. Were there caldrons available in 1992 when you were at the KP Dom?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you actually ever see Muslim detainees have access to that hot

18 water caldron?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where was the caldron located?

21 A. In front of the kitchen.

22 Q. How were you able to get access to it?

23 A. Well, we would go out and take it.

24 Q. This was room by room, right?

25 A. No. We could go and take it whenever we wanted to.

Page 5751

1 Q. You had access -- you and the other Serb detainees had the ability

2 to walk out of your room into the courtyard to the kitchen whenever you

3 wanted, right, during the daytime?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That's how you would get the hot water, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The Muslim detainees were not able to leave their rooms unless

8 accompanied by a guard in groups; isn't that true? Or perhaps you don't

9 know.

10 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

11 Q. It's true that they were locked up in their rooms and did not have

12 the same access that the Serb detainees had, right?

13 A. Well, I think yes. I don't know. I didn't go there to their

14 part. I don't know if they were locked up or not. I think they were

15 locked up.

16 Q. In July -- on July 10th of 1993, there was a Muslim detainee named

17 Ekrem Zekovic who escaped from the KP Dom. You were there at the KP Dom

18 at the time, right?

19 A. I was in KP Dom then.

20 Q. When he escaped, there was generally -- there was alarm at the KP

21 Dom because somebody had escaped, right? That's normal.

22 A. No, I don't remember. I don't know whether there was an alarm or

23 not. I can't remember.

24 Q. When Mr. Zekovic was captured and brought back to KP Dom, there

25 was a time when all the detainees were lined up and all the staff members

Page 5752

1 as well in the courtyard. Do you remember that?

2 A. I don't remember that.

3 Q. You were never called out into the courtyard when this happened?

4 I mean, is it possible that it happened and you were not included because

5 you were a Serb detainee rather than a Muslim, or are you saying that it

6 never happened? It was a very big deal. Everybody who was there

7 remembers it.

8 A. I don't remember at all.

9 Q. Did you have any contact with Savo Todovic?

10 A. Only in 1993, when I went to work, then he gave me my task.

11 Q. During the four months or so in 1992 when you were detained at KP

12 Dom, you never ever had any contact with Savo Todovic, right?

13 A. Well, yes. He did come and explain things to us, tell us what to

14 do.

15 Q. What kinds of things did he explain?

16 A. Well, that we shouldn't meet with Muslims, that there are mines

17 all around, that we shouldn't wander into the mine fields and so on.

18 Q. Did he say why you shouldn't meet with Muslims?

19 A. No, he didn't.

20 Q. What would happen to you if you did?

21 A. I don't know. We would probably be punished.

22 Q. Do you know what position Savo Todovic had that he was able to

23 tell you these things?

24 A. I don't know. He was some kind of boss. I don't know.

25 Q. Did you ever have contact with -- do you know who the commander of

Page 5753

1 the guards was?

2 A. Mitar Rasevic was a commander.

3 Q. What contact did you have with him?

4 A. Well, we didn't have much contact with him. He was only for the

5 guards, not for us. He wasn't there for us.

6 Q. But when you say "the guards," there were several guards at the KP

7 Dom who were there to guard the prisoners and detainees, right?

8 A. I didn't understand your question. What do you mean?

9 Q. You said Mitar Rasevic was the commander of the guards and you

10 said that you didn't have much contact with him because he wasn't there

11 for you, he was there for the guards.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So there were guards at the KP Dom?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If you had a complaint about your conditions, to whom would you

16 complain?

17 A. To the guard.

18 Q. Any guard in particular or just the guards in general?

19 A. Any guard that was on duty.

20 Q. And what would happen to your complaint? Would it be relayed to

21 someone else?

22 A. Well, he would relay it, pass it on. I don't know. I don't know

23 to whom.

24 Q. Did you ever get any responses to these complaints? Somebody --

25 any word back that you could meet with an official, or that something

Page 5754

1 would be done?

2 A. I didn't complain ever, and as for those who did complain, I don't

3 know. Sometimes they did and sometimes they didn't.

4 Q. When they did get a response, from whom did they get the

5 response?

6 A. I don't know, because I never complained.

7 Q. But didn't you discuss it among yourselves, those of you detained

8 in the same room?

9 A. Well, we did. We talked.

10 Q. And what did --

11 A. We didn't keep quiet all the time.

12 Q. What did the other detainees or prisoners tell you had happened to

13 their complaints?

14 A. Well, they didn't -- they were there briefly, two days, three

15 days, five days, a month. Those soldiers who made a mistake and came back

16 from the front lines, they didn't have anything to complain about to the

17 guards. If they complained about the food, well, there was no other food

18 to be had, so what could they complain about?

19 MS. KUO: I think we need to take a break now, Your Honour. I

20 have a few more questions.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We will adjourn now and resume at 9.30 in

22 the morning.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday the 9th day

25 of May, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.