Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5755

1 Wednesday, 9 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Stojanovic. Yesterday we were discussing

14 complaints that the Serb prisoners may have about their conditions, and

15 you mentioned that any such complaints were given to the guards who would

16 then relay it, and you also mentioned that among you Serb prisoners, you

17 discussed things. You did not keep quiet about what was happening. So

18 let me ask you this: Where did you learn from the other prisoners --

19 where did these complaints go?

20 A. Well, those complaints, if there were any, but we did not complain

21 because we had not yet received our sentences or anything. We were still

22 in custody only. And those Serbs, those others, they were milder

23 sentences because they were judged by military authorities, but the

24 decisions, the rulings, were 5, 15 - I don't know - 20 days of

25 imprisonment. And since it's the army, it's the military, there's nobody

Page 5756

1 you have to complain to, you can complain to. You just serve it.

2 And I was in detention pending the trial and the judgement, and I

3 was judged only in 1993, and it was only later on that I -- when I was out

4 of Foca that I appealed, but nothing came out of it and so ...

5 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, we understand that you did not complain because

6 you were satisfied with your treatment at KP Dom, but isn't it true that

7 some of the other Serb prisoners did have some complaints?

8 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest you add the words "in relation to the

9 conditions."

10 MS. KUO: Yes. Thank you.


12 MS. KUO:

13 Q. Complaints in relation to the conditions. They did right? I mean

14 it wasn't perfect, so they did complain?

15 A. I do not know anything about it.

16 Q. You do know something about it because you understood the

17 procedure. You told us the procedure yesterday, didn't you? That these

18 complaints would be given to whichever guard was available, who would then

19 relay it. I can read back the transcript for you if you'd like.

20 A. Well, what kind of complaint procedure there was, but we did not

21 complain.

22 Q. So you knew there was a procedure if you were to have a complaint,

23 right? If there were a complaint, it would be given - excuse me - it

24 would be given to a guard that was on duty - you told us that yesterday -

25 and then he would relay it and pass it on. That was the procedure,

Page 5757

1 right?

2 A. Yes, that is right, but who -- then it was sent on, forwarded. I

3 just do not know. I do not know what was the next step.

4 Q. It would be obviously forwarded on to somebody who had an ability

5 to listen to or do something about the complaint, right? That's logical.

6 A. I suppose so. I don't know.

7 Q. That person would be the warden, right?

8 A. Well, warden or lawyer in the KP Dom or somebody. I don't know

9 which one of them.

10 Q. Let's move on. You told us yesterday that you were told by Savo

11 Todovic that you Serb prisoners should not have any contact with Muslim

12 prisoners, otherwise you would be punished. What kind of punishment did

13 he tell you you would receive if you violated that rule?

14 A. Well, either isolation -- isolation. Something of that sort. You

15 know what isolation and isolation cell is. They put you in a room and

16 that's it.

17 Q. We know about the isolation cells. Did you ever see -- were you

18 ever punished for violating any rules at the KP Dom?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you know of any other Serb prisoners who were punished at the

21 KP Dom for violating a rule there?

22 A. No.

23 Q. With regard to medical care, you told us yesterday that you were

24 able to see a doctor two times a week and this was to get your blood

25 pressure measured. Did you ever have any major medical complaint that you

Page 5758

1 needed to see a doctor for?

2 A. Yes. I once even went to the hospital, rather, they drove me to

3 the hospital because I had a kidney failure.

4 Q. You were able to get treatment immediately, right?

5 A. Why, yes.

6 Q. And even for what you mentioned about going to the doctor twice a

7 week, those were routine check-ups just to measure your blood pressure,

8 right?

9 A. Pressure too. If someone had fallen ill, he would be administered

10 treatment or hospital or something. Medicines would be administered.

11 Q. I'm asking you about you, sir. You mentioned that you were able

12 to go see the doctor on a regular basis twice a week, and my question

13 was: Those regular visits were not because you had a specific complaint

14 but just as a routine check-up to see how your blood pressure was doing,

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You mentioned -- and just to follow up, when was it that you went

18 to the hospital for your kidney treatment?

19 A. I think it was 1993.

20 Q. Was it at the end of 1993 or at the beginning of the second time

21 you were in the KP Dom? Was it winter or summer?

22 A. I think it was summer.

23 Q. You mentioned also yesterday that in 1993 when you returned to the

24 KP Dom you received a work assignment. Could you tell us when you

25 received the work assignment, again, whether it was summer or winter?

Page 5759

1 A. August.

2 Q. What was your work assignment?

3 A. We worked in the furniture factory.

4 Q. Was that something that you had any choice in? Were you told to

5 do that or did you volunteer?

6 A. Volunteered.

7 Q. And yesterday you also mentioned a Muslim detainee named Rasim

8 Taranin whom you saw at the Kula camp. You also saw him at the KP Dom;

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. He worked in the kitchen under the supervision of the cook; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And as part of his work in the kitchen he gave out food to the

14 prisoners and detainees; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So he was present while the Serb prisoners were being served their

17 food; in fact, he served you. Right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. He would also be present while the Serb prisoners ate their food;

20 right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You mentioned yesterday that you saw Mr. Krnojelac after your

23 release, and you told us he told you: Thank God he had been reassigned to

24 his school. Are you aware that from July 1993 until September of 1994

25 Mr. Krnojelac didn't actually have a work assignment at all?

Page 5760

1 A. No.

2 Q. You understood by his statement that he had been reassigned

3 directly from the prison, from the KP Dom, to his old job; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. KUO: No further questions, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Vasic?

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

9 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, when asked by my learned friend, you said that you

10 patronised Gong Cafe. Could you tell us if it is the same door which --

11 the same entrance into the coffee bar and the house? Is there only one

12 door?

13 A. There are two doors.

14 Q. Is there a separate entrance into the house and a separate

15 entrance into the coffee bar?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. When asked by my learned friend, you said that Serb

18 soldiers attacked Muslim parts of the town. Were there any parts of the

19 town of Foca that were purely Muslim?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Between the 8th of April, 1992 -- as of the 8th of April, 1992,

22 did the military operations start, both on the Muslim and Serb side?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You said, when asked by my learned friend, that you were put in

25 Room 19. Did the Serb prisoners who had violated military laws, were they

Page 5761

1 kept in any other room but Room 19?

2 A. I wouldn't know.

3 Q. Likewise, when asked by my learned friend, you spoke about permits

4 to visit you which your family was granted.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did your family get these permits to visit you from the army

7 command even when you began to serve your sentence on the basis of the

8 final judgement?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did they have to get a new permit for every visit?

11 A. They gave them this one permit so ...

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. The Defence

13 has no further questions.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You are now

15 free to leave.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE HUNT: Which is your next witness, Mr. Vasic? Are we now

18 going back to Mr. Zoran Vukovic?

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. We're coming back

20 to Witness Zoran Vukovic. Thank you.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration which is

23 set out in the document which the Court usher is showing you.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

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Page 5763

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please.

4 Mr. Vasic.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you

6 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

7 Q. Good morning, sir.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. Can you give us your full name, please.

10 A. Zoran Vukovic, son of Branko.

11 Q. First I have to ask you, since we both speak the same language,

12 will you please, after you heard my question, that you make then a break

13 so as to leave the interpreters enough time to interpret my question, so

14 that the Chamber and my learned friends from the Prosecution could hear

15 both my question and your answer in full.

16 Can you tell us the date, the month, and the year of your birth?

17 A. 11th July 1957, in Foca.

18 Q. Where did you complete your elementary education?

19 A. I completed elementary education in Foca, that is, Veselin Maslesa

20 school.

21 Q. And the secondary education?

22 A. I completed a secondary education in Foca.

23 Q. And after that, did you enrol in some high school and where?

24 A. After that, I attended the high technical school in Cacak.

25 Q. And what is your profession?

Page 5764

1 A. I am a shop-floor engineer.

2 Q. When did you get your first job and where?

3 A. In 1980 I got a job in the administration of Maglic Company, in

4 the purchase and supply department.

5 Q. And did you keep that job until 1992?

6 A. No. I did not stay there until 1992, but until 1983, because that

7 year I went to Novi Sad.

8 Q. And did you move to Novi Sad to be with someone or did you change

9 the job?

10 A. I moved to Novi Sad, to my brother's, because he had his own

11 business. I went to work with him, and he's a mechanical engineer.

12 Q. And did some members of your family stay back in Foca?

13 A. Yes. My mother stayed behind, my brother, my sister-in-law, the

14 children.

15 Q. And when did you return from Novi Sad to Foca?

16 A. In 1985. That is when I returned to Foca.

17 Q. And at the time when military operations started in Foca, were you

18 in Foca at the time?

19 A. When the fighting began, yes, I was in Foca.

20 Q. What part of Foca did you live in?

21 A. I lived on the outskirts of Foca, in Cohodar Mahala.

22 Q. Were you mobilised for the army of Republika Srpska?

23 A. Yes. I was mobilised by the army of Republika Srpska on the 16th

24 of April.

25 Q. And during your service in the army of Republika Srpska, were you

Page 5765

1 ever sanctioned for disciplinary violations by the military authorities,

2 Serb military authorities?

3 A. Yes. I was punished three times by the military authority.

4 Q. What kind of punishment did you receive from the military

5 authorities on those occasions?

6 A. Once for 30 days and the other to 13 to 15 days thereabouts - I

7 wouldn't know exactly - but roughly two months.

8 Q. And did you serve those sentences?

9 A. Yes, I did serve those sentences.

10 Q. And where did you serve those sentences?

11 A. I served the sentences in the KP Dom in Foca, in a part of it that

12 was under the control of the military authorities.

13 Q. At what time intervals did you commit those violations?

14 A. The first one was in 1992, between the 5th October until the

15 4th of November.

16 Q. And the other two?

17 A. And the other two in the spring of 1993, March and April. I don't

18 remember exactly. It could have been half one, half the other month.

19 Q. And these two sentences, did you serve them in a short time

20 interval?

21 A. Yes. It was 10 to 15 days, both sentences.

22 Q. And in 1995 were you also sentenced for a misdemeanour by the

23 misdemeanour authority?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what was the sentence then?

Page 5766

1 A. A fine.

2 Q. And did you pay that fine and did you pay it out of your salary?

3 A. I paid it, but at that time I had no salary.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I should like to ask

6 the usher to help me to show the witness ID D142.

7 Q. Sir, is this the certificate of release from detention in 1992?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And was this signed by Marko Kovac, the Commander of Military

10 Post 1741, for the War Presidency?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On this document it says that you were detained from the 5th of

13 October until the 4th of November, 1992, but above this it also says that

14 you will be released on the 5th of October, 1992. Can you explain to us

15 this discrepancy in dates?

16 A. You said from the 5th of October to the 4th of November, and this

17 must be a typing error. It must be an error that slipped in when the

18 document was being drawn up, because down below it says -- the length of

19 the sentence I served is stated in the bottom part of the document.

20 Q. And when were you released from prison after having served your

21 sentence?

22 A. It was at about 11.00 in the morning on the 4th of November.

23 Q. And when did you get this document?

24 A. I received this document when I was going out. I was met by the

25 military police, and Boro Ivanovic was with them.

Page 5767

1 Q. Where did they take you after this?

2 A. After this they took me to the front line.

3 Q. Sir, did you give this certificate to the Defence team of

4 Mr. Milorad Krnojelac?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence moves that

7 this document be admitted into evidence.


9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes, as the translation.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection to that, Ms. Kuo?

11 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour, although I would inquire whether there

12 is a better copy than what is provided here, because the name Marko Kovac

13 is not very legible. And then also the witness said there was something

14 stated at the bottom of the certificate regarding the length of the

15 sentence, and I don't see that either.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I rather think he meant the second paragraph. This

17 is certainly established that a rubber stamp may prove the authenticity of

18 the document but is no guarantee of its accuracy.

19 MS. KUO: Yes. Your Honour, I have no question about the

20 authenticity, but simply if there was a better copy.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Is there a better copy, Mr. Vasic?

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I don't have a better copy available

23 at the moment, but I do have the original, and I can let my learned friend

24 see it if that would help.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Certainly. It might be just as well if you

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Page 5769

1 substituted the original for the photostat.

2 Any objection to it being substituted, Ms. Kuo?

3 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. That will be substituted for the actual

5 Exhibit 142. They will be Exhibits D142 and 142A.

6 You proceed, Mr. Vasic.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. During your stay in the part of the KP Dom which you said was a

9 military detention unit, were any Muslims imprisoned there?

10 A. Yes, there were. I was in Room 19 and they were in Room 18.

11 Q. And were there any Muslim prisoners in other rooms in the building

12 where you were serving your sentence?

13 A. In that building perhaps there was another room, but there were

14 also Muslims in the other buildings.

15 Q. Were they kept separate from the Serbs who had violated the

16 military regulations and laws?

17 A. Yes, they were separate.

18 Q. In KP Dom itself, were there any persons who had been sentenced

19 before the outbreak of the war with final judgements and were serving

20 their sentences?

21 A. Yes, there were. There were a few of them and they were on the

22 floor above the one where I was.

23 Q. You said that in the part of the prison where you were, the

24 military command was in charge. Do you know who was in charge of the

25 Muslims who were imprisoned?

Page 5770

1 A. The army and the guards set up by the army there were in charge of

2 them too, so it was all administered by the military command.

3 Q. And how do you know this?

4 A. I know this from the guards who also went to the front line and

5 who said that they were under the military command and that they too had

6 to go to the front line to be replaced by other guards.

7 Q. And during your stay in the military detention unit, did you see a

8 man called Savo Todovic?

9 A. Yes. I saw him almost every day in the compound of KP Dom.

10 Q. And during your stay there, did you see Milorad Krnojelac?

11 A. While I was in KP Dom, I never saw Milorad Krnojelac inside KP

12 Dom.

13 Q. Can you tell me: While you were serving these sentences, did

14 anyone come to visit you?

15 A. Yes. My mother and my sister-in-law came twice.

16 Q. And did they tell you who had given them permission to visit you

17 and where they got this permission from?

18 A. Yes. Yes. They told me that they had gone to Velecevo, to the

19 command, to ask Marko Kovac for permission to visit me.

20 Q. Can you tell me where these visits took place?

21 A. There was a room, when you enter KP Dom, right near the entrance.

22 That's where the visits took place.

23 Q. Is that the room that was usually used for visits?

24 A. What do you mean by "visits"?

25 Q. Well, when family comes to visit a prisoner.

Page 5771

1 A. Yes, during the war. I don't know what it was before.

2 Q. Can you tell us what the food was like while you were in the

3 military prison in KP Dom?

4 A. Well, we had three meals, and the amount was what it was. The

5 quality was not of the best. When there was bread available, we got more;

6 when there wasn't, we got very little.

7 Q. Can you compare this food to the food you received while you were

8 in your unit at the front line?

9 A. Yes. In the unit the food was also very bad. There were

10 shortages, and it came to that two soldiers had to share one tin of meat

11 paste.

12 Q. And how did you maintain hygiene while you were locked up there?

13 A. They heated water in caldrons and then it was put in pails and

14 taken to the bathroom. There was little soap available. What they had,

15 they gave us, but there were big shortages.

16 Q. And during your stay there, did you have occasion to ask for

17 medical assistance?

18 A. I only asked for a pill for toothache, and Gojko Jokanovic gave me

19 one. He was there every day.

20 Q. Do you know whether other people requested medical assistance

21 besides Gojko Jokanovic? Were other people provided medical --

22 A. I didn't need this, but I heard from other soldiers that two

23 doctors came from the hospital twice a week.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, the reference there to soldiers I think

25 should be cleared up. Does he mean people who are there who were Serbs

Page 5772

1 who had been convicted, Bosnian Serbs who had been convicted?

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. When you used the term "soldiers," did you mean members of the

4 Serbian ethnic group who were in military units of the Serb army and who

5 had violated military laws?

6 A. Well, I meant those who had violated military laws.

7 Q. Thank you. Do you know what Milorad Krnojelac's competence was,

8 what his authority was in KP Dom Foca?

9 A. He was the warden. He had a work assignment, a work order. He

10 was appointed by the executive committee and the whole town knew that. He

11 was appointed to look after the property, what was left of the property of

12 KP Dom.

13 Q. Since when do you know Milorad Krnojelac?

14 A. I have known Milorad Krnojelac for 20 years. Maybe he knows me by

15 sight. He used to teach in the Veselin Maslesa school where I went, too,

16 but he wasn't my teacher. I know him as a good man, honest, decent, a

17 good teacher. Everybody said that in town; his colleagues, other

18 teachers, his pupils. And I know that he is a very honourable and decent

19 man.

20 Q. Thank you, sir.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no

22 further questions.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination. Ms. Kuo.

24 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vukovic. You were born in Brod in Foca, right?

Page 5773

1 A. Yes, Brod near Foca.

2 Q. And you lived for a time in Brod as well?

3 A. I lived in Brod up to 1985.

4 Q. You were working in Novi Sad from 1993 [sic] until 1985, right?

5 I'm sorry, 1983 until 1985.

6 A. Yes. I was working in Novi Sad then, and later on I went to work

7 with my brother in Novi Sad for five or six months at a time.

8 Q. Immediately before the fighting in Foca broke out, you were not

9 living in Foca town itself, were you?

10 A. I lived in Foca before the conflict in Foca broke out.

11 Q. You gave a statement on the 28th of April of this year to a

12 Defence -- to a Defence investigator and a relative of Milorad Krnojelac,

13 right? I meant February, not April. February 28th.

14 A. Yes, that's correct. I made a statement.

15 Q. At the time you gave the statement, you understood that your --

16 the information you were giving would eventually be part of your testimony

17 in court, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So you tried to be as thorough and accurate as possible, right?

20 A. Yes. Yes. I was sincere.

21 Q. And if you had any doubts about what you were being asked, you

22 felt free to get clarification from the individuals interviewing you,

23 right? You felt comfortable?

24 A. I didn't understand your question.

25 Q. While you were giving the statement, there wasn't anything that

Page 5774













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Page 5775

1 was confusing or unclear to you about what you were being asked, right?

2 A. Well, I made the statement of my own free will and I was certainly

3 not confused.

4 Q. When you were finished with the statement, you were given the

5 statement to look over and you signed it and it was accurate, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In fact, you were given a copy of the statement to keep, right, to

8 review before your testimony today?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In your statement, and I'm referring now to paragraph 2, you

11 stated, I'll quote: "I came to Foca on 16 April 1992 after I heard that

12 combative actions had started."

13 So you weren't actually in Foca before that, right?

14 A. No. I'd left 15 days before that for Podgorica and from Podgorica

15 to Novi Sad.

16 Q. You came back to Foca specifically to join the army of Republika

17 Srpska in Foca, right?

18 A. I returned to Foca because I have a home there and I have an

19 elderly mother, a brother, a sister-in-law, there were two children, and I

20 came back to join the army of Republika Srpska.

21 Q. Your mother is elderly and sick as well, right, and was sick in

22 1992?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You came back to Foca to join the army of Republika Srpska because

25 you believed in the cause that they were fighting for, right?

Page 5776

1 A. I returned to Foca because of my family and of course I stayed

2 with my family.

3 Q. You -- I'll read this back to you from the transcript: "I came

4 back to join the army of Republika Srpska."

5 You came back specifically not only because you had a family

6 there, but you came back specifically so you could join the cause of the

7 army of the Republika Srpska, right?

8 A. Well, yes. I returned both because of my family and also to join

9 the army of Republika Srpska. There's nothing controversial about that.

10 Q. You were not -- you didn't join the army as part of a compulsory

11 work order, you volunteered, right?

12 A. I volunteered and joined the 4th Battalion of the army of

13 Republika Srpska.

14 Q. Before you came to Foca you were not under a compulsory work order

15 in Novi Sad or anywhere else, right?

16 A. Well, I said that my brother was a private entrepreneur and I

17 worked with him. So I was not employed. I was working with my brother,

18 but I was not paying anything into a pension fund. I was not regularly

19 employed. I only worked for money.

20 Q. Let me clarify the question. You had not been asked, as part of

21 the war effort, to go to a specific job, right?

22 A. I was not required. Is that what you asked?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. If they had asked me to go somewhere in terms of a compulsory work

25 order, because I had worked previously in the directorate and I had the

Page 5777

1 training, of course I would have gone. And I would have had to go because

2 that is what military administration was like. You couldn't refuse

3 anything of the kind.

4 Q. My question wasn't theoretical. My question was concrete. You

5 were not asked or ordered to any sort of work obligation; right?

6 A. I was not asked to go and work in terms of a compulsory work

7 order.

8 Q. In your statement you said that a compulsory work order could not

9 be refused because there would be consequences for the person who would

10 dare to refuse, and that the whole family would then be looked upon with a

11 suspicious eye. Do you remember making that statement?

12 A. I did not understand you.

13 Q. Let me read it to you then. It's the last paragraph of your

14 statement. You stated:

15 "A compulsory work order could not be refused, as it entailed

16 harsh consequences, not only for the person refusing it but also for the

17 whole family, that would be then looked upon with a suspicious eye."

18 Do you remember making that statement?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. So the harsh consequences you referred to was that there would be

21 suspicion cast upon the person and his family; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. This suspicion would come from neighbours and other people like

24 that; right?

25 A. How shall I explain this? They would be viewed with different

Page 5778

1 eyes from different angles. If somebody tried to shirk the war, to avoid

2 taking part, he was a traitor.

3 Q. So it was a question of honour and reputation, right, to refuse to

4 participate in the war effort?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you ever -- but it wouldn't make a difference if you

7 participated in some way in the war effort, it wouldn't make a difference

8 whether you did something specific? In other words, if somebody were

9 given a certain work order and he did something else which also helped the

10 war effort, that would be fine, right, as long as you helped in some way?

11 A. I don't know how you understand this war, but I know that I was on

12 the front line and I wouldn't come back home for 20, 25 days. It happened

13 because of discipline violations and alcohol abuse that I was detained in

14 a military prison by the authorities. I don't know really how to answer

15 your questions, because it was wartime. We had to go to war. We had to

16 fight. Those were the orders.

17 Q. I'm asking you about a statement that you yourself made about

18 compulsory work orders. You never heard of anybody who suffered any

19 consequences for refusing a specific work order; right? We're not talking

20 about going to the front line; we're talking about work, away from the

21 front line. There were no consequences if you refused a specific work

22 order, right, other than suspicion?

23 A. There were consequences, of course there were. People would be

24 detained immediately if they failed to report for work duty.

25 Q. Where were they detained?

Page 5779

1 A. The same place where the soldiers who went home without permission

2 from the front line. They would be taken to the KP Dom.

3 Q. In other words, the same place that you were detained for

4 violating the military discipline; right?

5 A. Yes. They were detained at the same place where I was.

6 Q. In the same room?

7 A. No, not in the same room.

8 Q. Which room, then?

9 A. Well, there were two rooms within Room 19. I was in one of them

10 and they were in the other. But that's a room which consists of two

11 parts.

12 Q. You were able to speak to people in that room; right?

13 A. We talked.

14 Q. Which work orders did those people refuse? What work obligations

15 were they assigned to that they refused? Can you tell us?

16 A. Generally speaking, in the Maglic company, which has many smaller

17 units, there were people who refused their work obligation and they were

18 detained down there, but I don't recall their names.

19 Q. How long were they detained in the KP Dom?

20 A. I don't know, because I spent a month there and then left. I

21 don't know for how long they stayed.

22 Q. Were they there for a few days or longer?

23 A. Longer.

24 Q. You mentioned that Room 19 had two parts. Did one room face the

25 back, the hills, and the other room face the courtyard?

Page 5780













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Page 5781

1 A. It faced the yard. Both rooms faced the courtyard, not the hill,

2 or brdo.

3 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have this

4 witness shown Exhibit P6/3, please.

5 Q. I'd like you to look at the area marked as Room 19. This is a

6 diagram of the KP Dom, and Room 19 is marked where the prisoners' quarters

7 were. Can you show us the two rooms that you referred to as constituting

8 Room 19?

9 A. It's here. You come into this hallway, then comes the bathroom

10 and these two rooms. They face the courtyard, here.

11 Q. The translation is about a few seconds after your movement, so if

12 you could go through this more slowly. Where is the entrance to Room 19?

13 Just put the pointer on that spot and leave it there for a second. I'm

14 not getting a clear picture. Okay. You're pointing to the room that says

15 "WC." Is that where the entrance was?

16 A. The entrance is on this side, where the courtyard -- that's where

17 we came into this building from. That was Room 18 and this is the

18 entrance. Then comes the bathroom, and there were two rooms and one

19 waiting room, and we played chess.

20 Q. You see the staircase marked?

21 A. Here.

22 Q. And from the staircase, how do you enter Room 19?

23 A. The stair -- from the staircase you went straight to the left, and

24 on the right there was Room 18. I cannot find my way around in this

25 picture, but from the courtyard you enter the building, through the

Page 5782

1 entrance; you go up the stairs; and when you arrive in front of the room,

2 to the left there is Room 18 and to the right there is Room 19. When you

3 come into Room 19 through the main door, there is the toilet and the

4 bathroom on the left. Then we come into the room, which serves as a

5 waiting room, where we smoked and played chess. And then when you go

6 further on, there are two rooms facing the courtyard. I cannot really

7 orient myself in this picture, but I'm trying to explain how it was.

8 Q. That's fine. Perhaps I can show you the photograph and that would

9 help you. This is Exhibit P18, photograph 7513, the bottom. Are you able

10 to locate the windows to Room 19 on this photograph?

11 A. Those are the windows.

12 Q. How many?

13 A. The entrance is here. Shall I count the windows in the

14 photograph? I don't remember how many there were in the room. That's the

15 only way I can answer your question. It is this floor, and these windows

16 faced the compound, the courtyard. That's here, this area.

17 MS. KUO: The witness indicated the floor that is one floor above

18 the ground floor, and it's the windows starting from the right-hand side.

19 Q. Do you remember how many there were? You said you weren't

20 completely sure. Approximately how many windows were there in Room 19?

21 A. Four to six, thereabouts. Four to six, maybe seven. I didn't

22 count, as I said.

23 Q. And the four to six or seven windows that you refer to all faced

24 onto the courtyard, right?

25 A. I slept here in this room, next to this one, and all the windows

Page 5783

1 faced the courtyard. And even this room where we played chess, it faces

2 the courtyard too.

3 Q. Was there any part of Room 19 that had windows that faced the

4 hills?

5 A. Only from the toilet in the bathroom. I don't know that the room

6 next to us faced the hills. I know that the room where I was had a bed in

7 it and all the windows faced the courtyard.

8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vukovic, in your testimony, you stated that you

9 had adequate hygiene and, in fact, in your statement you stated that your

10 hygiene was better than what you received in the army. Is that right?

11 A. I'll answer you like this: I maintained hygiene thanks to the

12 fact that the guards sometimes brought me some soap, a toothbrush. My

13 mother came once and my sister-in-law. They brought me a change of

14 clothes and whatever cosmetic articles they could get hold of in town,

15 which was itself suffering shortages.

16 Q. So you -- when your mother and your sister-in-law visited you,

17 they were allowed to bring you toiletries and a change of clothes, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You stated in your statement that you had -- you were under the

20 regime that was identical to the one of detained Muslims. Do you still

21 maintain that?

22 A. I maintain that the same regime prevailed within the compound, and

23 the fact that I had visits is another matter.

24 Q. You were not detained -- in other words, the detained Muslims were

25 not allowed visits, right? That was different.

Page 5784

1 A. I don't know whether any visits were allowed to them. I really

2 don't know that.

3 Q. Well, you just stated the fact that I had visits is another

4 matter. Doesn't that imply that you knew that the Muslims could not have

5 visits?

6 A. I received visits. Whether they did, I don't know. I'm only

7 speaking about myself.

8 Q. You were not housed with the other Muslims. You saw some Muslims

9 across the hall in Room 18, but you didn't share living accommodations

10 with them, right?

11 A. I didn't see them in the other room, Room 18, because I couldn't

12 see. I only saw them when they were going to breakfast, lunch, and

13 dinner, but I had no contact with them.

14 Q. When you saw them going to meals, you could notice that they were

15 extremely thin and had lost weight, right? They did not look healthy.

16 A. I didn't notice anything. I didn't notice even whether my own

17 maternal brother was thin or not, whereas as far as those Muslims were

18 concerned, I didn't know a single one of them.

19 Q. Did you lose any weight during the days that you were detained at

20 KP Dom?

21 A. Possibly. I didn't weigh myself, but I did lose some weight.

22 That's the kind of food we had.

23 Q. It wasn't a noticeable weight loss, right?

24 A. I don't know how to qualify it, whether it was noticeable or not.

25 Q. You said you had the same food as you did in the army. Did you

Page 5785

1 lose weight when you were in the army?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you lose the same -- how much weight did you lose when you

4 were in the army?

5 A. I don't know exactly. Five, six, seven kilos.

6 Q. You did not eat together with the Muslim detainees, right?

7 A. No, we didn't eat together. They went for their meals before we

8 did.

9 Q. So you have no way of knowing exactly how much food they were

10 allowed to eat, right?

11 A. I didn't know because I didn't have my lunch with them. They went

12 for meals before us. But meals were cooked in the same cauldron for both

13 us and them.

14 Q. When -- you said there were times when there was more bread and

15 times when there was less bread. The times when there was more bread, you

16 could have as much bread as you wanted to eat if you were hungry, right?

17 A. No, you couldn't eat as much as you wanted. If there was more

18 available, they would give you extra slices. If there wasn't, then the

19 rations were minimal.

20 Q. If you wanted to have a second helping of a meal, you were allowed

21 to do that, right?

22 A. I was not allowed to and I never took a second helping anyway.

23 I'm speaking for myself.

24 Q. You said you were not allowed to. In what way were you not

25 allowed to?

Page 5786













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5787

1 A. We couldn't come back because the cook wouldn't give us extra

2 food. And the cook was assisted by two Muslims who served the meals, and

3 among them I knew Rasim Taranin, who was one of the people serving food

4 together with the cook. I didn't know the others.

5 Q. You said earlier that you were only speaking for yourself about

6 taking a second helping. Other people, other Serb prisoners, were

7 allowed, if they wanted, to take second servings if it was available? Of

8 course, there were times when it wasn't possible, I understand, but when

9 there was food available, Serb prisoners could take a second helping,

10 right?

11 A. There was never enough food, and the quality wasn't much either.

12 Q. You stated in your statement that in the KP Dom -- I'll read this

13 to you: "... in KP Dom," this is paragraph 5 of your statement, "the

14 warden managed to procure some of these means that were periodically

15 distributed to both Muslims and to us according to the order of military

16 authorities." And that was in reference to toiletries, right?

17 A. Yes, I did say that, but I was referring to very small amounts

18 only.

19 Q. So, in fact, the warden was able to have some impact on your lives

20 by securing toiletries, right?

21 A. Whether he had any impact or not, I don't know. I was under

22 military command. I was looking forward to the day when I would get out.

23 I was dying of boredom, monotony. And whether he had any influence, I

24 don't know.

25 Q. You were detained for only 15 or 20 days at a time, right?

Page 5788

1 A. I was detained for 30 days the first time, in 1992. And in 1993,

2 I was detained twice with 10 to 15 days interval. I was detained for 10

3 to 15 days each time, a day more or less. I don't remember exactly.

4 Sometimes the military police would come to recruit additional men because

5 there was a shortage of men on the front line and they would take people

6 to fight.

7 Q. I understand that you stated that you were under military

8 authority, but nevertheless, you stated, and you stand by that statement

9 today, that the warden -- you knew that the warden procured hygienic

10 means, such as toiletries, which were given to the Muslims and to the

11 Serbs you said. So you knew about what the warden was capable of doing,

12 right?

13 A. I didn't know what his abilities were. How could I possibly know

14 that? I wasn't even able to know what I could do in that hopelessness and

15 misery.

16 Q. Are you saying now today that your statement was incorrect or not

17 based on any -- anything but -- that you're backing away now from your

18 statement that you gave just a few months ago that it was the warden who

19 was able to get hygienic means for you?

20 A. Stuff was procured in amounts possible. And whatever I said in

21 that statement, I stand by it, and I say even now he supplied us with what

22 he could manage and we were given whatever was available.

23 Q. So it was the warden who was responsible for giving supplies

24 regarding hygienic means, right? That's what you just said.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

Page 5789

1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Not in his statement and not in his

3 testimony did the witness say that the warden was in charge of

4 procurement. He only said that he supplied the toiletries that were

5 provided by the order of the military authorities.

6 JUDGE HUNT: I don't have the statement, so I'm unable to say

7 whether that's what it says or not.

8 MS. KUO: Your Honours, this is statement ID D121A, and what I

9 read was a direct quote from a translation that was provided by the

10 Defence.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Would you read it out?

12 MS. KUO: I'll read it again. The paragraph talks about the

13 hygiene and says:

14 "Hygiene in KP Dom was better than in the army. Frequent

15 shortages of electric power and water and the problems relating to the

16 purchase of hygienic means resulted in a situation in which it was, even

17 for households in the town, difficult to maintain hygiene at enviable

18 level. Nevertheless, in KP Dom, the warden managed to procure some of

19 these means that were periodically distributed to both Muslims and us

20 according to the order of military authorities."

21 JUDGE HUNT: I think it's those last six words that Mr. Vasic is

22 relying upon as qualifying the effect of the rest of it. It's a matter of

23 some argument. You've put it to the witness. If he -- I think it's a

24 fair enough question to put to the question. If he can't answer it, then

25 it's a matter for you to use in address.

Page 5790

1 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. Shall I repeat the question that was

2 last put, that was objected to before the answer could be given?

3 JUDGE HUNT: It may be best to deal with it now, yes.

4 MS. KUO:

5 Q. The question was: So it was the warden who was responsible for

6 giving supplies regarding hygienic means, right, however it was

7 distributed? Perhaps I can qualify it that way. He was able to get

8 hygienic means from outside the KP Dom.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

10 JUDGE HUNT: If you're going to take the same objection, it's

11 overruled.

12 MS. KUO:

13 Q. Please answer the question.

14 A. I don't know who was in charge of supplying the KP Dom. I don't

15 know. Whatever was available, we were using. I don't know whether

16 Milorad Krnojelac was responsible or somebody else. I don't know that.

17 JUDGE HUNT: I think, Ms. Kuo, that's as far as you can take it.

18 But you are entitled to ask Mr. Vasic to agree that the passage you read

19 out does appear in his statement.

20 MS. KUO: Yes. I'd like to have that agreed upon.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. That stands in his

23 statement, in the fifth paragraph, as my learned friend said -- as she

24 read out, rather.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. We'll adjourn now until 11.30.

Page 5791

1 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

4 MS. KUO:

5 Q. Mr. Vukovic, when you needed medical care, you were able to get

6 it; right? You were never refused?

7 A. I never needed any, so I did not ask for any medical care.

8 Q. You did ask to see Gojko Jokanovic on one occasion when he -- when

9 you requested medicine for a toothache; right?

10 A. Yes, I did that, but that was a toothache; that's no illness.

11 Q. It was very minor, then?

12 A. Well, what shall I say? When you have a toothache, so I simply

13 asked for a pill, and he -- and so I did go to Gojko Jokanovic and he gave

14 me some pills to alleviate the pain.

15 Q. Do you know people who -- never mind. You were able --

16 JUDGE HUNT: There's always a question too many.

17 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

18 Q. You were able to speak with the guards; right? You said that you

19 talked about their going to the front lines.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were you able to speak freely with them about what was happening?

22 A. Well, I did not discuss anything in particular. I knew a couple

23 of them from around the town, and that was it.

24 Q. None of them ever mistreated you; right?

25 A. No.

Page 5792













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Page 5793

1 Q. You mentioned that the people who were sentenced prior to the war

2 for civilian crimes were housed in the room upstairs from you; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The same guards who were in charge of you in your room were also

5 in charge of the civilian prisoners upstairs from you; right?

6 A. Well, they would have their lunch at the same time with us.

7 Whether they were in charge of them, I do not know. I had no way of

8 learning that.

9 Q. Were there, aside from the guards that were in charge of you in

10 your room and also in charge of the Muslim detainees, were there some

11 other separate set of guards that guarded the people who were sentenced

12 under civil -- as civilians under the civil criminal code?

13 A. Well, the guards did not really guard us. That room was simply

14 unlocked, but the main entrance into the building was under lock. And the

15 guards did not stand guard; they simply escorted us to breakfast, lunch,

16 and dinner. They had no other duties.

17 Q. So in other words, you and the people in your room were allowed to

18 move about freely in the KP Dom; right? You were not confined to Room 19?

19 A. We could not move around freely. It was chaotic. One could

20 perhaps come out into the passage, but the building was locked. I've

21 already said so. We could not move freely around the yard of

22 the -- around the prison yard.

23 Q. You said that the door was unlocked. The Room 19 was unlocked, so

24 you could move inside the building, but the building front door was

25 locked, so you could not go into the courtyard; right? Is that what you

Page 5794

1 mean?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So you could go downstairs and you could go upstairs, as long as

4 you stayed inside the building; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So you could walk across the corridor to where Room 18 was and

7 perhaps through the door be able to speak with or have contact with the

8 Muslim detainees? Was that possible?

9 A. Well, you could not get -- one did not have access to the room.

10 And to talk, well, I don't know, because I didn't have any communication.

11 I don't know about others.

12 Q. Room 18 was locked; right? You couldn't get inside Room 18?

13 A. Yes, it was locked.

14 Q. When you went upstairs to the room right above you where the

15 civilian -- the people who had been sentenced and were serving their

16 civilian sentences were detained, was that door unlocked?

17 A. I don't know. I didn't go there.

18 Q. Did you have contact with the people who were serving civilian

19 sentences?

20 A. Only at lunchtime or breakfast or dinner, because they had those

21 meals at the same time that we did.

22 Q. When you talked to those people, were you able to discuss whether

23 there were differences in the way you were treated or were you treated the

24 same way?

25 A. I did not discuss it with them and I do not know about it.

Page 5795

1 Q. As far as you could observe, there was no difference in the way

2 you, who were either subject to military discipline or military laws, the

3 way you were treated and the way the civilian prisoners upstairs from you

4 were treated, right? It was the same?

5 A. I do not know how they were treated. I simply say that we had our

6 meals at the same time. I did not really talk much with them and I know

7 nothing about that.

8 Q. When you saw the civilian prisoners, the Serb civilian prisoners,

9 being taken to meals, they were accompanied by the same guards who

10 accompanied you, right?

11 A. We would line up in front of the building and we all went

12 together, the same guards.

13 Q. When you gave the statement to the Defence investigator, Dundjer

14 Milenko, and Rada Sestovic Krnojelac on February 28th of this year, who

15 contacted you? Did you contact them to volunteer to come testify or did

16 they contact you or did someone else contact you?

17 A. I contacted them first.

18 Q. How did you learn that -- well, how did you come to contact them?

19 Why?

20 A. Because I had -- because I learnt that lawyers defending Milorad

21 Krnojelac had arrived. And since I had been to the -- in the KP Dom, I

22 went to testify and say what I knew and what I had seen.

23 Q. And we've already established that you tried to be very thorough

24 and very -- to give as much information as possible, right, in order to

25 help Milorad Krnojelac?

Page 5796

1 A. I'm only telling the truth and what I heard and saw. There are no

2 other reasons.

3 Q. And you tried to give as much information as you could that could

4 possibly help Milorad Krnojelac, right? That was the reason you contacted

5 the Defence lawyers?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you spoke at that time -- and this was in the Cafe Gong,

8 right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I'll quote from your statement, and it's paragraph 8. It's the

11 very last sentence: "Briefly, the warden had no say in connection with

12 the detained Muslims, he could not take any decision, because there was a

13 man in charge of these issues appointed in KP Dom by the army."

14 Did you make that statement?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was that man?

17 A. The army had their own man. I do not know exactly who that man

18 is, what his name is.

19 Q. It wasn't Savo Todovic, was it?

20 A. Yes or not, I do not know whether it was he, but Savo Todovic was

21 in the prison yard every day.

22 Q. Had you known that Savo Todovic was, in fact, the person in charge

23 appointed by the army, you would have given the name at that time,

24 wouldn't you?

25 A. Had I known it, I would have said so.

Page 5797

1 Q. In fact, in your entire statement you never once mentioned Savo

2 Todovic's name, did you?

3 A. I did not mention him in my statement, that's true, but I say that

4 while I was there, I used to see him every day walking around the prison

5 yard.

6 Q. While we're talking about your statement, I notice that in your

7 statement you mentioned that you were in the KP Dom on two occasions, each

8 time for 30 days, and today now you tell us that you were there three

9 times. Could you tell us why that is?

10 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that he did, actually. What he said was

11 that he had two further sentences, and he said he was there from October

12 to November and it might have been a half of each month, which suggests

13 they might have been concurrent. Perhaps you better clear it up.

14 MS. KUO: Yes. This is what I'm trying to do right now, to clear

15 this up.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

17 MS. KUO:

18 Q. You testified that you were punished three times by military

19 authorities, and the first time was for 30 days and the -- and then there

20 were some other times when it was 15 to 20 days, and we would like to get

21 clarified what you meant; why there is a difference in your statement when

22 you say there were two occasions that you were in KP Dom and today you

23 testified that you were punished three times.

24 A. Yes, it is true that I spent -- I was there twice, 30 days both

25 times, but during that stay, the army would come and take some men out

Page 5798













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5799

1 from amongst those serving the sentence because, for instance, the front

2 line had been broken through and they needed more men. And when that

3 thing would be over, they would bring me back to the KP Dom. Hence the

4 misunderstanding.

5 Q. Just to establish the dates very clearly, you said the first time

6 you were in KP Dom was the 15th October until the 4th November, 1992, that

7 period of time. I'm sorry, was it the 15th or the 5th of October?

8 A. 5th, 5th.

9 Q. From the 5th of October to the 4th of November, 1992, that's an

10 entire month. You were at the KP Dom continuously during that time,

11 right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And there was another time in March of 1993, you said it could

14 have been half that month and then part of April 1993 that you were there

15 for how many days?

16 A. I should have served 30 days, but as I said, it was in late 1993,

17 in March, and the military came, took me to the front line and then

18 brought me back, and then I spent another 10 or 12 days there. So it

19 wasn't for 60 days, because they took me out to the front line.

20 Q. So actually you were there for 30 days or so, taken to the front

21 line for a few days, and returned for a few more days at KP Dom in the

22 spring of 1993; is that right?

23 A. In the -- it all happened in the spring of 1993, towards the end

24 of March, and then I went to the front. And then in April they brought me

25 back again for another 10 or 12 days, so that I served a few days less

Page 5800

1 than 60 because I had been to the front and that was a mitigating

2 circumstance.

3 Q. When you were not on the front line and when you were not detained

4 in KP Dom, there were times when you could return to Foca to visit your

5 family, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell us what exactly the disciplinary breaches were that

8 caused you to be detained in KP Dom? What did you do?

9 A. Arbitrarily left the unit so as to have a proper bath. I had

10 spent 25 days on the front line.

11 Q. And for both --

12 A. And then I get to the town, drop by a coffee bar for a drink or

13 two, and the military police turn up and ask to see the permit.

14 Q. And that's all that you were being punished for, the fact that you

15 were not reporting to the front line when you were supposed to?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Isn't it true that you were also disciplined for the consumption

18 of alcohol while on duty?

19 A. Well, that's what I said, alcohol and arbitrary departure from the

20 unit.

21 Q. The conviction that Mr. Vasic asked you about in 1995, which he

22 said was a misdemeanour, that was for shooting a firearm while drunk on

23 the street where you live in Foca, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And also for pointing an automatic rifle at another individual;

Page 5801

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the trial at which you were found guilty, you had received

4 notice to appear at the municipal court in Foca, but you didn't bother to

5 appear for your own trial, did you?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. You've known Milorad Krnojelac, you said, for more than 20 years,

8 and in your opinion, he is a good, honest, and decent man; right? That's

9 your opinion?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Vukovic, do you know a teacher named Djurovic, who taught

12 physical education at Brod Elementary School?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And isn't it true that in January or February of 1993, you and

15 Mr. Djurovic broke into a studio in Mahala, where you took a 24-year-old

16 Muslim girl back to your mother's house and raped her? Isn't that true?

17 A. No. I can explain how things were. It is a building next to

18 mine, and we stopped by, my friend Ilija Djurovic, teacher of physical

19 education, and I. And when we dropped by there, we found Savo Todovic

20 there and the cobbler, the shoemaker. Allegedly that was his flat, and he

21 had his girlfriend there. So he invited us upstairs.

22 We entered, and that girl asked me, because she hadn't had any

23 liquid meal for six months, to take her to my place so that she could use

24 a spoon at long last. And I did that and took her to my place, where my

25 old mother lived. And at the door I told my mother, "Mother, this is a

Page 5802

1 Muslim girl who is hungry. Will you fill a plate so that she can have it

2 while I look for some sweatsuit or something to give her to put on?" And

3 after she had -- after the supper, after eating, she looked at me and

4 said, "I'll never forget what you've done for me, and may I spend the

5 night here in your room?" And I answered in the affirmative.

6 So she spent the night there, and I never touched her, just as I

7 wouldn't my own sister. In the morning she left and I departed for the

8 front, and then she went back to that flat and I went out to the front.

9 And that is all, and rape is out of the question.

10 Q. Mr. Vukovic, your nickname is Kifla; isn't that right?

11 A. It is.

12 MS. KUO: Your Honour, we have a portion of a transcript from the

13 Kunarac trial where Witness 75 testified and identified a Kifla, Zoran

14 Vukovic, with the exact same description as this man, as having raped her,

15 and we would like to have that put in evidence. We've provided a copy of

16 at least those two pages to Defence counsel. This is for purposes of

17 impeaching this witness.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. What do you say to that, Mr. Vasic? The Rules

19 provide that if the transcript is used in order to save time, you are

20 entitled to seek leave to cross-examine in these proceedings.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, especially since

22 from the transcript that I was given this morning, I cannot see that the

23 description fits this witness, because this female witness says that it

24 was a man who was rather on the fat side, if I read it well. Secondly --

25 JUDGE HUNT: But I realise all of that. The importance in the

Page 5803

1 description, I think, is in the nickname. In that case, we heard evidence

2 that there were 11 Zoran Vukovics that lived in Foca, but only one of

3 them, I think, had that particular nickname.

4 It's a difficult thing to imagine it being dealt with in the

5 middle of this witness' evidence. You can put the allegations to him, and

6 I think you would be obliged to put them. Then if you wish to use the

7 evidence given by Witness 75, we can then deal with the mode by which that

8 evidence can be produced either by calling the witness or using the

9 transcript, with the right under the Rules for an application to be made

10 to cross-examine her, because this was not really an issue in the Kunarac

11 trial and it wasn't really investigated. May I suggest you proceed just

12 to put the allegations to the witness and then we'll worry about it. The

13 only thing in the description, I think, is that he is, I think, over 30

14 and he has the nickname Kifla.

15 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. However, throughout his testimony he

16 has given us other information that's contained here; for instance, that

17 he lived in Brod.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not making a decision as to the admissibility of

19 it. You are entitled to put the allegations to the witness. Indeed, if

20 you want to rely upon them to impeach his evidence, you must put them, as

21 you would be aware.

22 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. I don't really have any further

23 questions, because I believe I have put this to him and he has stated what

24 he wishes to state about the allegations. And we wish to put this in.

25 The Court can give the testimony or the transcript whatever weight it

Page 5804













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5805

1 wishes to, based on the evidence that has already been provided, the

2 identifying evidence provided by this particular witness, and we would

3 leave it at that.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we'll mark this for identification at this

5 stage. That would be the safest thing, I think. It will be marked for

6 identification 8. Yes.

7 MS. KUO: We have no further questions.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Vasic.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

11 Q. Two questions only. First: Before the combat operations started,

12 did you live in Foca?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And before the beginning of these combat operations, did you go to

15 Novi Sad?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when you went to Novi Sad, did you change your place of

18 residence?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you change your place of residence only so as to -- only to

21 finish the job that you had, or did you register as somebody who has left,

22 who has transferred from Foca to Novi Sad?

23 A. Only to get my job finished.

24 Q. And just one more clarification. My learned friend used the term

25 "civilians serving their sentences," and in your answer to these

Page 5806

1 questions, you meant persons serving their sentences having received the

2 final judgement and who had begun serving their sentences before the

3 beginning of the combat operations?

4 A. I didn't understand your question. Could you repeat it, please?

5 Q. When you said "civilians serving their sentences," serving their

6 terms, did you mean persons serving their terms pursuant to final

7 judgements pronounced before the outbreak of the conflict?

8 A. I don't understand.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Does it matter, Mr. Vasic? As I understand the

10 refined version of your -- of the issue raised by the Defence of this

11 case, there were three types of prisoners there: There were the prisoners

12 of war, as you call them, the Muslims; there were the army people who had

13 committed some military misdemeanour and had been punished by a military

14 court; and there were some civil people. Whether they were convicted

15 before or after the commencement of the war I don't think matters, does

16 it? The only point is that they were dealt with in a civil court, and

17 whether they were dealt with by final judgement or not doesn't matter if

18 they were in custody. So may I suggest you put the question a little bit

19 more simply to this witness, who is obviously having some difficulty with

20 it. I can understand his difficulty.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I believe you

22 are right, and I withdraw the question. Thank you. I think it is clear

23 enough that it is a category unto itself that those were persons who had

24 received their sentences as civilians. Thank you very much. I have no

25 further questions.

Page 5807

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You are now

2 free to leave.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you please make the solemn declaration in

6 the terms of the document which the court usher is showing to you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

15 Q. Good day, sir.

16 A. Good day.

17 Q. Would you please tell us what your name is?

18 A. Radomir Dolas.

19 Q. I will ask you, since we both speak the same language, after I put

20 a question to you to pause a little so that the interpreters will have

21 time to interpret the question.

22 Mr. Dolas, tell me, please, the full date of your birth.

23 A. The 11th of October, 1947.

24 Q. Where were you born?

25 A. In Rudo.

Page 5808

1 Q. And when did you move to Foca?

2 A. In 1953.

3 Q. And where did you complete primary school?

4 A. In Foca. Primary school and teacher-training college.

5 Q. Did you do your military service?

6 A. No. No. I did not do my military service because I was declared

7 unfit because of my eyesight. I have poor eyesight.

8 Q. And has your eyesight been poor since you were little?

9 A. Yes, since my childhood. Since the first grade of primary

10 school.

11 Q. Tell me, sir, where did you get a job and when after you completed

12 your education?

13 A. In 1968 I graduated from the teacher-training college in Foca. In

14 that same year I got a job with the Foca KP Dom and my job was teacher. I

15 taught there. I had a combined class from the first to the fourth form,

16 and I taught illiterate prisoners.

17 Q. Did there come a time when you changed your job within the

18 institution in which you worked?

19 A. After three years of teaching, I was transferred to the so-called

20 service for re-educating convicts.

21 Q. And what did you do?

22 A. I did administrative jobs.

23 Q. Did you change this job also?

24 A. Yes. In 1978, in the KP Dom, within the Drina Economic Unit, a

25 printing press was established. In that year I was appointed head of that

Page 5809

1 printing press, and I had two civilians who were employed, as I was, under

2 me and a certain number of convicts.

3 Q. When you say "civilians," do you mean by that citizens?

4 A. Yes, citizens who were employed in the KP Dom just as I was.

5 Q. Can you tell us where the printing press was located?

6 A. The printing press, to begin with, in 1978, that is, until 1981,

7 was located in the school that is inside the KP Dom compound.

8 Q. And after 1981?

9 A. In 1981 the economic unit bought some business premises which are

10 in a residential building.

11 Q. And is this building outside the KP Dom compound?

12 A. Yes. So this building, which is both residential and business, is

13 about a hundred metres away from the compound. It's outside the

14 compound. I didn't measure it, but it's outside.

15 Q. Can you tell me until when you worked in this printing press

16 within the Drina Economic Unit?

17 A. Until the 1st of July, 1991, when at my own request I retired.

18 Q. Can you tell us, in view of the fact that you mentioned the Drina

19 Economic Unit, how many units were there before the conflict broke out?

20 A. I will enumerate them. The furniture factory, the metalworking

21 plant, the building construction unit, the catering unit, the farm, the

22 fish farm where fish were bred, and finally the printing press.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell me, at the head of this Drina

24 Economic Unit, who was at its head before the war broke out?

25 A. At the head of the Drina Economic Unit was the director of the

Page 5810













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5811

1 economic unit.

2 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell us in what part of Foca you lived

3 just before the war broke out?

4 A. Well, on the 7th of April, the day before the war broke out in

5 Foca, I lived and I still live in the part of town which is called Donje

6 Polje. That part where I live, the residential building where I live, is

7 some 500 metres away from KP Dom.

8 Q. And on the 7th of April did you move?

9 A. On the 7th of April, with my two children and my wife, I went to

10 the part of town which is called Centar, to my parents-in-law.

11 Q. Why did you do this?

12 A. I did this because on the 5th, 6th, and even the 7th, checkpoints

13 were set up. They were set up by the Muslims.

14 Q. Can you tell us where these checkpoints were?

15 A. The barricades were near Cafe Bor, which is in the middle or just

16 as you are leaving Donje Polje in the direction of Centar.

17 Q. And when the war broke out were you in the centre of town?

18 A. Yes, I was, until the 18th of April. So from the 7th of April to

19 the 18th of April.

20 Q. And did you return to your own home in Donje Polje on the 18th of

21 April?

22 A. Yes, I did, because in Donje Polje, everything was over. Before

23 that, if I can say, the Muslims held the KP Dom. They held it. They hold

24 the whole of Donje Polje. When we were told that we could go back, I went

25 back with my family. That was on the 18th of April, 1992.

Page 5812

1 Q. On your return to Donje Polje did you get a work obligation?

2 A. Up to the 1st of May no one touched me because I hadn't served in

3 the army. And just before the 1st of May, I don't know who called me to

4 the executive committee of the Foca municipality. The president before

5 the war, as well as then, was Mr. Radojica Mladjenovic. Then I was handed

6 a temporary work order to work in the printing press of the Drina Economic

7 Unit. That's what it said.

8 Q. After you were given this order by the executive committee of the

9 Municipal Assembly, did you report there?

10 A. Well, I was told that I was to report to Mr. Krnojelac because he

11 was in charge of the Drina Economic Unit, just as before the war there was

12 always a director who was in charge of all the work units of the Drina

13 unit.

14 Q. Tell me, please, whether you know, what was your task when you

15 went to the printing press?

16 A. Well, my task was mainly to make sure that the premises were put

17 in order so that they could operate, because during the combat operations

18 there was shelling, Serb shellings falling from one side, Muslim shellings

19 falling from the other, so all the windowpanes had been shattered. And

20 Muslim and Serb families from the residential building had spent time in

21 the printing press warehouses, using it as a shelter from the shelling.

22 When I was handed the keys, I went there with a commission

23 consisting of three members and which had been set up by the director,

24 Mr. Mico Krnojelac, to take an inventory of all the property. The

25 commission consisted of Bozo Drakul, Cedo Krnojelac, and the third member

Page 5813

1 was Micun Jokanovic. This commission was charged not only with taking an

2 inventory of the printing press but also with taking an inventory of all

3 the property in all the units that I have enumerated, and that is what

4 they did.

5 Q. Tell me, please, did you personally observe any damage in the

6 KP Dom administrative building?

7 A. Well, I only entered it and it was damaged. I know for certain

8 that the office of the former warden of the Dom had been ransacked, the

9 safe had been broken into, and the other offices were in a very sorry

10 state. That was in the administration building. I didn't go further, at

11 least at first, because I didn't have time and I didn't need to go through

12 the building.

13 Q. Can you tell me who appointed the members of this commission? You

14 say it was appointed by the director, but who actually elected its

15 members?

16 A. Well, the director's competence is at the advice of the expert

17 services to issue a decision and that's what happened.

18 Q. And on that occasion, was an inventory made of the contents of the

19 warehouse?

20 A. Well, that was the task of the commission, to take an inventory of

21 everything: the production materials, the food in the warehouses, the

22 warehouse for the inmates. There was also a storage area for the catering

23 unit, and their task was to make a full inventory.

24 Q. Do you know what the situation was in the warehouse for inmates?

25 A. Well, from my contacts with the members of the commission, who

Page 5814

1 came to take an inventory in my unit after they had completed the others,

2 while we were drawing up this inventory in the printing press, I asked

3 them, because I wanted to know what the food stores were and the material

4 for production, paper, material for producing furniture. And the chairman

5 of the commission - I think it was Bozo Drakul - told me that the

6 situation was very bad indeed.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell us when these activities which you

8 undertook in the printing press led to the resumption of work?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When was this?

11 A. Immediately after I was given the decision or, rather, my

12 compulsory work order, and this was on the 15th of May of the same year.

13 That was when I was summoned by the military department, which was in

14 charge of mobilisation in wartime, exclusively. I responded to this

15 call-up and I went to the school, because in the summons it said that was

16 where I should report. So I appeared before a three-member military

17 commission. I can't remember. I know there was a doctor and an officer.

18 I'm not exactly sure. But this was an official military commission. And

19 after inspecting my papers declaring me unfit for military service, they

20 gave me a final decision about compulsory work in the printing press of

21 the Drina Economic Unit. In this decision, it was stated that apart from

22 working in the printing press, I would from time to time reinforce the

23 guards, only on the perimeter of the compound.

24 Q. How did you manage, sir, to do two jobs, one inside the printing

25 press and your job as a guard?

Page 5815

1 A. Well, in the first few months, that is, May, June, and July, I

2 worked almost exclusively in the printing press except for a few occasions

3 in those months. Call-up papers were drawn up, and I printed two war

4 bulletins for the Foca Tactical Group. And since I did not have skilled

5 workers, I worked alone. I did everything, from preparation to printing,

6 and I produced the final product. In those days, on several occasions I

7 even had to stay and work at night in the printing press.

8 Q. This printed material, was it ordered, commissioned by the army?

9 A. The bulletins were commissioned by the command of the Foca

10 Tactical Group. After the job was done, consignment papers were drawn up

11 and invoices were made. They were made out to the Foca Tactical Group.

12 Whether they were ever paid, I don't know.

13 Q. We heard that while you were working at the printing press you

14 were part of the Drina Economic Unit. Could you tell us who was your

15 superior when you were performing guard duty in the external security

16 service of the KP Dom?

17 A. My assignment to guard duty --

18 Q. Will you please wait for the interpretation.

19 A. My assignment to guard duty, and the guard duty schedule in

20 general, was prepared by the commander of the guards, Mitar Rasevic.

21 After the end of my shift, my direct superior was the duty officer.

22 Within the compound, it was the officer in charge of the compound, and the

23 man in charge of the KP Dom was his superior. The guard duty of the KP

24 Dom was, of course, under the command of the guards' commander.

25 Q. This guards' service, was it under military command at the time?

Page 5816













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5817

1 A. Yes, it was, because in the decision we got governing compulsory

2 work order, we were ordered to perform guard duty.

3 Q. Are you aware of the chain of command of this guard service which

4 you say was under military command? You said there was a guards'

5 commander. Do you know who his superior was?

6 A. The commander of the guards was responsible to a person -- I don't

7 know whether he was an officer or not, but he was appointed by the army to

8 be in charge of the security at the KP Dom, including security of

9 detainees, or rather, security or securing the section that the army had

10 leased for the purposes of detaining disciplinary offenders. They were in

11 charge of both Muslim detainees and Serbs who were guilty of breaches of

12 military discipline or military offences.

13 I forgot to mention that when the war broke out, there were about

14 10 to 15 - I'm not sure of the number - persons convicted under criminal

15 law who were already at the KP Dom, and they constituted a separate

16 category.

17 Q. You mentioned a person who was in charge of this part of the

18 prison which had been leased to the army. Can you tell me the name and

19 surname of that person?

20 A. That is Savo Todovic, with whom I had worked before the war,

21 although not directly together with him. He had graduated from law

22 school, but he didn't work as a lawyer. He worked as an officer in charge

23 of carrying out sentences given to detainees, and he himself told me on

24 one occasion that he was in charge of the detainees but in collaboration

25 with officers from the Drina Tactical Group. I think that person at the

Page 5818

1 time was Boro Ivanovic, and for the entire duration of the war we called

2 him "security man," and that was Boro Ivanovic.

3 Q. Apart from what you said Mr. Savo Todovic had told you, did you

4 see any evidence of this hierarchy in the command of the military unit

5 itself?

6 A. Until mid-September 1994 I worked at the KP Dom as my compulsory

7 work obligation, and in 1994, I was mobilised because war laws had changed

8 and I was pronounced fit for military service. So the criteria were

9 lowered, and regardless of my poor eyesight, I was pronounced to be

10 partially fit for military service and sent to the front. That was

11 somewhere in the middle of 1994. I was in the area of Ustikolina, if you

12 need to know this, Presjek, and I was there until the 1st of February,

13 1995, when the people from the command of the brigade, since the tactical

14 group had already grown into a brigade, transferred me into the command

15 and gave me an administrative technical job. I worked there until

16 demobilisation in mid-March 1996.

17 While I was filling this administrative technical job I came

18 across certain papers, and on one occasion I saw the wartime assignment of

19 Mr. Savo Todovic.

20 In one conversation with Mr. Ivanovic, with whom I worked in the

21 same building, once in June 1995, when Mr. Todovic was supposed to

22 mobilise at the request of Mr. Paprica, brigade commander, Mr. Ivanovic

23 energetically demanded that Todovic not be sent to the front line because

24 he was in charge of security of the KP Dom on behalf of the brigade.

25 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that he was in charge of the part of

Page 5819

1 the KP Dom which belonged to the army and now you said he was in charge of

2 security of the KP Dom. What was he in charge of?

3 A. He was in charge of the part of the KP Dom leased to the army for

4 detaining military men, and none of -- no outsider had the right to meddle

5 in military security because that was a matter of military secret.

6 Mr. Krnojelac had absolutely no influence on this. He had no say

7 whatsoever. The only thing in his jurisdiction was the Drina Economic

8 Unit and the 10 to 15 convicts which had been at the KP Dom already when

9 the war broke out.

10 Q. Could you tell us whether at that time the Drina Economic Unit had

11 a number of units? Was it the same number as before the war?

12 A. No. The number was reduced. The fish farm, Krupica, which was

13 somewhere at Miljevina, was destroyed during the war. In fact, the fish

14 was released. Huge amounts of fish were released. I don't know who did

15 this.

16 The shirt factory worked but not to capacity. I forgot to mention

17 this shirt factory when I was mentioning the various economic units. Then

18 the farm, that is food production, was in operation. The furniture

19 factory was in operation, the metalworking shop was in operation, and the

20 printing press worked as well.

21 However, all of this does not come even close to the capacity that

22 was in place before the war, and that's natural because the market was

23 reduced.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether Milorad Krnojelac travelled

25 outside Foca on business related to the economic units, and if he did,

Page 5820

1 what was the nature of that travel?

2 A. Just before the war broke out, the economic unit was owed a lot of

3 money by Serbia and by Montenegro. Mr. Mico very frequently travelled to

4 Podgorica, Niksic, Uzice, Cacak, trying to get compensation for the debts

5 owed by companies from these cities in the form of food. Sometimes this

6 job was also done by clerks in charge of food supply. Sometimes it was

7 them who travelled, but I know that Mr. Krnojelac frequently travelled,

8 himself to do this.

9 Q. What was this food used for, the food you had mentioned?

10 A. There were food shortages in the whole town of Foca, and it was

11 needed by -- by the KP Dom to feed the convicts who had already been there

12 before the war and for detainees who worked in the Drina Economic Unit.

13 Q. You said that the food storage was empty. Was this food also used

14 to feed others as well?

15 A. Of course a part of that food was sent to the central canteen. In

16 fact, it was first stored in warehouses and then, according to requests

17 filed by head of the kitchen - I think it was Krsto Krnojelac - daily

18 amounts were issued, and this food was used to feed the total number of

19 people detained at the KP Dom; that is, convicts, Muslim detainees, and

20 Serb detainees, and the employees as well, because -- can I continue?

21 Q. Yes, go on.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, sir. You commenced that answer

23 while the question was still being translated. You made it very difficult

24 for the translators or the interpreters to keep up with you. You remember

25 Mr. Vasic said to you, "Please wait."

Page 5821

1 You may find it easier if you see the screen ahead of you there.

2 It has the transcript, admittedly coming up in English, but if you wait

3 until the typing stops, you'll know that the translation -- you'll see

4 that the typing continues until the translation has finished. So please

5 wait so that the interpreters can keep up with you.

6 A. It's only now that I see on the screen the typing that you warned

7 me about, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Sir, I would now like to come back to the second part of your

11 compulsory work order and that is guard duty. Where was your guard post

12 when you were on duty?

13 A. My guard post was inside the administrative building, in the

14 lawyers' office, on the third floor. Or was it the second? In any case,

15 it was the last floor.

16 Q. Could you please tell us, how long was the shift on this

17 particular post?

18 A. Due to extraordinary circumstances, a shift was 12 hours long.

19 However, we were two on the shift, and I would like to enumerate, as far

20 as I can remember, the shifts I was on; I, who am a retired person and

21 unfit for military service: Slobodan Susnjevic, electrician; Andjelko

22 Kujundzic; stolar, a carpenter, a retired carpenter; Nikola Andjelic,

23 retired carpenter. Those were the men who worked in the lawyers' office

24 where we stood guard.

25 Q. Can you tell us how many times a month did you stand guard?

Page 5822













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5823

1 A. Generally speaking I was given -- assigned to guard duty by the

2 military command as reinforcement, but in those few months while I worked

3 at the printing press - May, June, July, and even August - it was perhaps

4 once or twice a month that I would be sent as replenishment, as a

5 substitute for a guard who was absent.

6 Q. While you were on your guard post, did you see or hear with your

7 own ears that any of the detainees were beaten or killed?

8 A. The task of this group of guards was primarily to stand at an open

9 window facing the courtyard to inspect comings and goings to meals by all

10 convicts and detainees. That was the primary task of this group of

11 guards. A guard post like that, a similar guard post with the same

12 purpose and with the same quality of manpower, existed in the right wing

13 as well; and in the left wing, in the rehabilitation officers' service, on

14 the second floor, there was another guard post, and the guards there had

15 the same function and the same tasks.

16 Q. Are you talking about the building which is left from the entrance

17 to the KP Dom, which is called the guards' building?

18 A. Yes. That's the second guard post, and I already explained where

19 I stood guard.

20 Q. Thank you. Are you aware that Muslim detainees were taken to be

21 exchanged?

22 A. There were exchanges. I'm sure about this, because I attended one

23 by accident, not as a guard but because I had been sent on an errand to

24 the administrative building.

25 Q. Can you tell us what happened then?

Page 5824

1 A. A military truck came carrying a certain number of armed military

2 men wearing camouflage uniforms, and they did not allow us to linger there

3 during that procedure, which was very brief. First came the search - that

4 was regular procedure even before the war - reading out of the list, and

5 loading onto the truck. That was it. I don't know the number, but the

6 truck was almost full. There were perhaps 20 people.

7 Q. Could you remember when you saw this?

8 A. I think it was sometime in autumn 1992. I cannot remember the

9 month really. I usually remember dates and months, but I did not really

10 participate in this. I just saw the guards escorting people from the

11 compound of the KP Dom. But this was not my job, nor was I on guard duty

12 that day.

13 Q. Does it mean that the guards from inside brought people and turned

14 them over to military authorities to be taken for an exchange?

15 A. That was in the exclusive jurisdiction of the head of the compound

16 and the head of the building, and there was at the gate the officer in

17 charge, the man on duty for the KP Dom. It was their task to turn over

18 people of Muslim ethnicity to soldiers according to a list made by Savo

19 Todovic, whereafter they were to be exchanged. May I add one more thing?

20 Q. Yes, sir. Go ahead.

21 A. As I said, I was present there and there were no incidents. There

22 was no mistreatment of detainees. They were not beaten. Everything was

23 done on a highly professional level by the guards of the KP Dom.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

25 Your Honours, it's 1.00. I believe it's time to break.

Page 5825

1 JUDGE HUNT: It's just after 1.00, but we'll adjourn now and

2 resume at 2.30.

3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.























Page 5826

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Q. Do you know if any sections had been envisaged for those who had

5 refused to comply with their labour duty at that time in 1992?

6 A. The sanctions if one refused to comply were very clear. You were

7 either put in the closed part of the KP Dom, or you deserted, or the third

8 thing was, of course, to comply with the order. There was no fourth

9 possibility.

10 Q. Can you tell me, since when have you known Milorad Krnojelac?

11 A. I have known Milorad Krnojelac since 1984 or 1985. I'm not quite

12 sure about the year exactly. Mr. Krnojelac was a teacher in the

13 elementary school, and the printing press I worked in often printed

14 pupils' paper, pupils' newspaper, or, for instance, papers for the

15 competitions of mathematicians, and that is how we met and cooperated.

16 And one more thing, a certain gentleman called Mladen Starovic

17 worked with me, and Mr. Krnojelac was his class master for his son, so

18 that he often spoke about Mr. Krnojelac and never said anything but the

19 best. That's it.

20 Q. And what do you think about Mr. Milorad Krnojelac and during your

21 cooperation between the school and the printing press?

22 A. Mr. Krnojelac was a very fair-minded man, strict, but pupils liked

23 him very much and so did the citizens and neighbours. And I had the

24 opportunity to hear it very often from a large number of people, and I

25 also knew that to be the truth.

Page 5827

1 Q. Thank you, sir.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no

3 further questions.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. Mr. Dolas, you mentioned that you lived in Donje Polje, and you

10 also mentioned that the printing press that you worked -- where you worked

11 was also in Donje Polje, and I would like to show you the photo

12 Exhibit P18, 7292.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We would need to see the entire photo. The

14 entire photo. We need to see the left side as well.

15 Q. Is this a part of Donje Polje? Do you recognise this?

16 A. It is. And in the centre is the building which housed the

17 printing press. I can point it out to you if you want me.

18 Q. Yes. Could you point it out. You have to point it out on the

19 ELMO, sir, not on the screen.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the black -- at

22 the huge building in the centre of the photo.

23 Q. And you were pointing at the ground floor?

24 A. Ground floor, glazed.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 5828













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5829

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: He was pointing at the ground floor, the

2 space between the first and the second red staircase, I suppose, pointing

3 from the left-hand side of the building.

4 Q. The white building next to this block, left to the block -- left

5 from the block, is that the bakery, the KP Dom bakery? Yes.

6 A. This is the bakery. Yes, that's quite right. This is the

7 bakery.

8 Q. And is the place where you lived, is it also on this photo?

9 A. This is the building that I lived in. I can even show you the

10 windows, rather, the balcony.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the yellow

12 building in the right corner of the photo, the huge apartment block

13 building.

14 Q. Thank you. That's enough. Do you know where Mr. Krnojelac

15 lived?











Page 5830


2 A. Mr. Krnojelac lived near the former lower school, which was

3 destroyed in the war, or rather, the building material, the bricks, that

4 is, were liberated by the civil defence and then used in subsequent

5 construction. On the ground floor there was the coffee bar called Gong,

6 and in front of that coffee bar there was yet another coffee bar, and it

7 was called Djan -- Djasan, I think.

8 Q. And was it also in Donje Polje, the house of Mr. Krnojelac?

9 A. I'm not sure, because it's somewhere on the boundary between

10 Centar and Donje Polje, so I'm not quite sure which neighbourhood

11 community he belonged to, whether it's Centar or Donje Polje, but I think

12 it's nearer Centar.

13 Q. So it would not be on the photo that you just had in front of

14 you? I mean the photo where you pointed out your house and the printing

15 press, it was not on there; right?

16 A. I couldn't see it, no.

17 Q. You said that on the 7th of April, 1992, you moved out of Donje

18 Polje to your father-in-law's house in the town centre; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you would pass the barricade at the Cafe Bor that you

21 mentioned; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You left this neighbourhood, Donje Polje, because it was unsafe,

24 right; you felt unsafe there?

25 A. I did not feel safe, and for a very simple reason: That my Serb

Page 5831

1 neighbours, people from my building, had all gone somewhere. Quite

2 simply, at some point I looked around and saw that I was on my own, plus

3 two Muslim families -- three Muslim families in that building.

4 Q. Many Serbs from Donje Polje did the same thing, just go somewhere

5 else; right?

6 A. Well, somehow, in the course of those months, there was a story

7 which went around, or rather it was a public secret that the Muslims would

8 take Donje Polje, that it was theirs, that they were more popular. I

9 heard those stories, but I did not believe them, yet nevertheless it

10 happened.

11 Q. My question was that many Serbs followed your example or even were

12 moved away earlier than you, right; they moved into other parts?

13 A. A certain number had moved to other parts even before me. I was

14 one of the last or maybe even the last one from that part of the town,

15 from that building, and a few other buildings.

16 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Krnojelac and his family also moved to

17 Cerezluk before the war started?

18 A. I wouldn't know that.

19 Q. You said you moved back on the 18th of April and you said that you

20 were told to move back. Who told you that?

21 A. Several Muslim families stayed in our building and we called them

22 by telephone. They stayed there until the end. So that is one thing.

23 And secondly, members of those military formations, they told us, "Donje

24 Polje is free. You can go back," so that was it.

25 Q. What military formations do you mean?

Page 5832

1 A. I did not know which military formations. There were people from

2 outside wearing camouflage uniforms. I simply did not know them. I was

3 afraid of them even, to be quite honest.

4 Q. But they were Serbs, right, Serb soldiers?

5 A. Regardless, because I had not served the army, so the bursts of

6 fire or shells sounded like hell to me.

7 Q. That was not an answer to my question. I was asking you if this

8 military formation that you referred to were Serb, the military formation

9 that told you that you can move back.

10 A. They were Serbs. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. You have explained to us that you worked in the printing shop and

12 you told us that you got this assignment from the executive committee, in

13 particular, Mr. Mladjenovic. Where did he give you this assignment?

14 A. I was issued with that task in the municipal hall or, rather, in

15 the seat of the executive board of the municipal assembly, which was

16 chaired by Radojica Mladjenovic. But they had their seat; they had their

17 chief officers in that same building before the war too.

18 Q. You said that he gave you this assignment as member of the

19 executive committee in the town?

20 A. The president, yes.

21 Q. The executive council is the council attached to the assembly, to

22 the town assembly, is it not?

23 A. Quite so. That is the executive body of the city parliament.

24 Q. And both the town parliament and the executive council are

25 peacetime organs, right?

Page 5833

1 A. The town assembly and the executive board are both peacetime

2 bodies, but at that time there was a Crisis Staff, and these positions,

3 decisions on the labour duty were within the exclusive province of the

4 executive board because that is -- the conventional labour duty has

5 nothing to do with the military, with one's military duties.

6 Q. At the time when you were assigned this labour duty there was war,

7 wasn't there? There was war in Foca or around Foca.

8 A. There was a war then around Foca. Foca was relatively quiet.

9 Q. And the peacetime organs were not functioning. It was the Crisis

10 Staff who had taken over. The Crisis Staff replaced these peacetime

11 organs, wasn't it?

12 A. On the 15th of May -- it was as late as the 15th of May that --

13 when I was called up and when I was issued with the proper disposition on

14 the labour duty. That was the executive board's disposition. It wasn't

15 the disposition or the decision of the Crisis Staff.

16 Q. Let me clarify something. You only were assigned this labour duty

17 on the 15th of May and not on the 1st of May?

18 A. I stated my task, my provisional, temporary labour duty,

19 temporary; that is, I was handed it on the 1st or the 2nd of May and it

20 expired on the 15th of May.

21 On the 15th of May I was called by the military department to

22 report to the school building for mobilisation. I said, because I was

23 unfit, they confirmed that I will be under labour duty. So that

24 disposition then became enforceable. The former one was just temporary.

25 So they confirmed that I would be under labour duty, and within that

Page 5834













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Page 5835

1 framework, if necessary, guard service, and that is the truth and the

2 whole truth.

3 Q. At both times, on the 1st or 2nd of May and on the 15th of May,

4 the Crisis Staff and the military command was ruling Foca, right, because

5 it was wartime?

6 A. To my knowledge there was the army commander which ran affairs,

7 and we received calls through the military department and for the military

8 command. And the Crisis Staff was a political body, rather. I had no

9 contact with them. If -- there may have been a Crisis Staff, but I did

10 not know those people. I know there was one.

11 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, was he not in the Crisis Staff?

12 A. Mladjenovic. Yes. In his capacity as the president of the

13 executive board must have been ex officio, but his signature said

14 President of the Executive Board of the Assembly of the Municipality of

15 Foca, because those dispositions were provisional. They were temporary

16 only.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

18 show the witness the document P446. The B/C/S version, please.

19 Q. Witness, you always mention that it is compulsory work and it is

20 work, but look at this list now, the list in front of you or, rather, on

21 the ELMO. You can see it on your screen. Do you see this list?

22 A. The screen, yes. I have it, yes.

23 Q. You see the list, and it says on this list: "List of men liable

24 for military service, members of the Foca KP Dom." You see that? You

25 have to look at the B/C/S version. I'm sorry.

Page 5836

1 A. Yes, I can see that. And below that it says "October 1992," and

2 this was added by hand and in pencil. That is missing from this English

3 version. Oh, no, no, no, no. I'm sorry. Yes, it is there.

4 Q. Yes. It's just that the B/C/S version may be more helpful for

5 you. And in line 6, "Radomir Dolas." That's you, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it says "soldier." Under "Rank," you know this column "Rank,"

8 you see that, it says --

9 A. Yes, I see that. I see that.

10 Q. And it says you were 31 days in October on duty as a soldier and

11 you get these days paid as combat allowance, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So that means at least in October 1992 you were a soldier, right?

14 A. No, it does not mean that I am a soldier. I'm sorry. I'll

15 explain it.

16 Q. Yes, please.

17 A. May I explain it? In the KP Dom, there never was formed such a

18 unit. It never was operational and I'll explain why.

19 This list features a number of professional guards who were

20 assigned by the military command to replenish the ranks on the front, and

21 it began as early as the first mobilisation, but I can give you at least

22 ten men on this list who never saw the front line, did not spend there a

23 single day. May I list them?

24 Q. I think we misunderstood each other. I'm not implying that you

25 were actually at that time a soldier at the front line, but you were

Page 5837

1 military personnel in the KP Dom. You were not -- that is what this list

2 actually says. It doesn't say that you were on the front line. Nobody is

3 actually saying that. That's a misunderstanding then between us.

4 A. Very well. I'll explain then this briefly so as not to tire you

5 too much.

6 During those months in 1992, we in the KP Dom were not receiving

7 any salary. We simply had no ministry responsible for us. There was no

8 budget. Businesses did work, but there was nowhere we could market those

9 goods, so there was no money. And in the course of those months, the army

10 procured money from some work, quite a substantial amount of money. And I

11 do not know whose idea it was, but this list was made then so that we who

12 were in the KP Dom could be joined to those who were on the army's

13 payroll.

14 And this combat supplement was very high - I can't remember how

15 high - but in the course of those months, it meant a great deal to us.

16 And somebody then did a forgery, which would be sanctionable in peacetime,

17 but in war, that is how things were done.

18 Q. What do you mean by somebody did a forgery? I mean this list is

19 actually signed and stamped by -- signed by Mr. Krnojelac, stamped with

20 the KP Dom stamp. What are you talking about?

21 A. This is what I'm talking about: The salaries were at that time

22 paid out through the bank, through Privredna Banka Sarajevo, which was

23 working at that time. And you have numbers here on the side. These are

24 the numbers of our accounts, and it is into those accounts that they paid

25 our money which we then withdrew.

Page 5838

1 Q. Mr. Dolas, do you mean these handwritten numbers, these

2 handwritten numbers on the document? You just mentioned the account

3 numbers. Are these the handwritten numbers in the document between the

4 two columns or which --

5 A. I think so. I think that is what they are. I think so. Here's

6 my number here. Now, whether that is the exact number, I can't remember,

7 but no doubt these are the numbers of our current accounts. We all had

8 bank cards and these were our numbers. So we showed them our card and

9 they give us the money.

10 Q. Why do you call it a forgery? You were ordered to work in the

11 KP Dom and you got this order from the military command. Isn't that

12 natural that you then also get paid by the military? Isn't that just

13 normal?

14 A. I didn't understand the question. Excuse me.

15 Q. You said this -- someone made a forgery so that you could get

16 paid, and I simply don't understand that. You told us that you got orders

17 from the military command to work at the KP Dom, and whoever orders you to

18 work there has to pay you, isn't that -- isn't that how it is?

19 A. No, that is not how it is. I'm sorry. Only the combatants on the

20 front line were receiving their salaries regularly, and that is why I said

21 that in all likelihood, to enable these people to get some money, there

22 must have been some arrangement made, some arrangement - I don't

23 know - but only the combatants on the front line were getting their

24 salaries. It is possible that what happened here was that here there are

25 many more people than those who went to the front. According to this

Page 5839

1 list, 20 people went to the front, but not all the time, not all the time.

2 Q. Witness, your war assignment throughout was working in the KP Dom

3 in these two positions like printing press and guard; right?

4 A. Yes, but this was an additional thing, and also when I had nothing

5 to do at the printing press.

6 Q. Yes. Yes, that's understood. When you look at this list

7 again -- you have already mentioned there are a lot of other people listed

8 as well, and all these people on the list, except for one person, has the

9 rank of soldier; right? Please have a look at it.

10 A. Yes, I see it perfectly.

11 Q. There is only one Captain First Class, and that is number 1,

12 Mr. Krnojelac; right?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Todovic, Savo Todovic, who is number 2, he is just a normal

15 soldier; right?

16 A. According to this list he is, but he introduced himself as a

17 security officer. That's what I said. And whether he actually was one, I

18 don't know.

19 Q. And Mitar Rasevic, that's number 3, is also only a soldier?

20 A. Yes, he's a soldier here, but he was commander. Commander is not

21 a rank. He was just the commander of the guards; that is to say, the

22 superior of the guards.

23 Q. We can agree, I think, that in the military units or in the

24 military hierarchy, the Captain First Class is a superior of the soldiers

25 in his unit; right?

Page 5840













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5841

1 A. I'll explain. In this case it is not so.

2 Q. I just want to hear if you can agree to this in general, that the

3 Captain First Class is the superior of the normal soldiers in his unit;

4 right? We are talking general, not Mr. Krnojelac.

5 A. In principle, it is so, but not in this case.

6 Q. And the Captain First Class gets a higher salary than the

7 soldiers?

8 A. Precisely. Precisely. That's what I wanted to explain,

9 because -- may I?

10 Q. Please.

11 A. The army had three categories - an ordinary soldier, a

12 non-commissioned officer, and an officer - and there were three different

13 salaries. As for the fighting men on the front line, this kind of list

14 was made - soldier, non-commissioned officer, officer - and the salaries

15 differed at a one-to-two ratio. That is to say, if a soldier has 40, the

16 NCO has 80, and the officer has 120. That's the kind of payments the

17 military made and that is how these lists were made.

18 Q. The soldiers referred to in this list or other lists, they were

19 soldiers of the VRS and members of the Tactical Group Foca; right?

20 A. No, it was not so, no.

21 Q. The person who gave you the order to work in the KP Dom as guard

22 and in the printing job in the high school, who was that?

23 A. I didn't understand. My mind seems to be wandering. I didn't

24 understand your question.

25 Q. You told us that on the 15th of May you got this assignment to be

Page 5842

1 guard and head of the printing press in the KP Dom, and you said you got

2 this assignment in the high school after you had passed a commission of

3 three persons. Who gave you this order? On the 15th. We are talking

4 about the 15th of May now.

5 A. Let me just change the order. Number one, I was given the

6 assignment to work in the printing press. I got that assignment from the

7 commission, where there was a doctor, an officer - I can't remember which

8 one - and a person from the executive in the municipality. That's the

9 commission that sent people either to the front line or gave them work

10 assignments. So it was either the front line or work assignments. Work

11 assignment was not a military assignment.

12 Q. I want you to tell me just the name of the person who gave you the

13 order to work in the KP Dom as a guard and as the head of the printing

14 press. Who was that? Who?

15 A. The president of the commission, Radomir Cicmil. Unfortunately,

16 he got killed in 1993.

17 Q. Mr. Cicmil was a Captain First Class, wasn't he?

18 A. Yes. Yes. No. No. No. No, he was not a First-Class Captain.

19 Mr. Cicmil was a reserve lieutenant, but he was appointed to the

20 commission though.

21 Q. So he was a soldier of the VRS Tactical Group Foca; right?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. And the other two persons, who were they?

24 A. The other two persons were the following: Dr. Mandic, I think his

25 first name is Radovan. I cannot remember the third person. I know this

Page 5843

1 person came from the civilian authorities. It's been a long time, after

2 all, nine years, and I am well advanced in age and I really can't

3 remember.

4 Q. Dr. Radovan Mandic was in the Crisis Staff; right? He was a

5 member of the Foca Crisis Staff?

6 A. Probably, but I'm not aware of that.

7 Q. You got this order from a commission headed -- including a member

8 of the army, including a person of the Crisis Staff, and you still say it

9 was a civilian obligation that you had?

10 A. I assert that this was a civilian duty, that's for sure, because

11 work organisation -- or rather, work obligation and war obligation are two

12 different things. They were evaluated completely differently. For

13 example, during these months when privatisation was carried out, in terms

14 of the number of vouchers that we got according to our contribution during

15 the war.

16 Q. Witness, when did you start working at the printing press? Do you

17 recall the date?

18 A. Sometime around the 3rd or 4th of May, if I remember correctly.

19 But on the 1st or the 2nd, I got this temporary work duty from the

20 executive council, and that lasted for several days.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

22 show the witness the Exhibit P3.

23 Q. And please have a look at the line number 16 on this list.

24 A. I've seen this.

25 Q. It refers to you as an employee in the KP Dom, and it says here 20

Page 5844

1 April 1992 as the starting day. Can you explain that?

2 A. I cannot explain that, because I really do not remember.

3 Q. Would that date -- could that date be correct? Could it be

4 earlier? Could it have been earlier than the 1st or 2nd of May? Could it

5 have been the 20th of April that you started there?

6 A. Now I'm sure that I did not start to work, because it was about

7 ten days. The premises of the printing press, that had glass panes before

8 the shelling. Due to the shelling, all this glass was broken and then the

9 members of the reserve police guarded the printing press.

10 So now I'm pretty sure I did not enter the printing press before

11 the 2nd or 3rd of May because nobody could enter it.

12 Q. Could it be that you got your assignment to work in the KP Dom

13 earlier than you actually started to work there?

14 A. It's not possible. It's not possible for a simple reason. Let me

15 just explain this a bit.

16 After I left, the printing press, that is to say when I retired,

17 the printing press was handed over to Aleksandar Dobnik. However, he was

18 immediately engaged in the front line. So before the 2nd of April -- no,

19 May, 2nd of May, I did not enter the printing press, nor did I have the

20 right to enter it. I was a retiree first and foremost. But I still

21 hadn't obtained the decision giving me the work obligation.

22 Q. Yes. And when you see -- when you have another look at this list,

23 it says that you stopped working there on the 20th of January, 1994.

24 Would that be correct?

25 A. Maybe they got me off their records -- off their records earlier.

Page 5845

1 That's the only explanation, because I remember this mobilisation to the

2 present day. The 20th of September, 1994, that is the accurate date.

3 This is a typographical error.

4 Q. Yes. Thank you.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We don't need the list any longer.

6 Q. Witness, the -- you mentioned that you also had a written order to

7 work at the KP Dom. You got the assignment to work at the printing shop.

8 Was it very detailed, this written order, or did it just say, "Assigned to

9 work at the printing press"? What did it say in particular to this job at

10 the printing press?

11 A. Are you referring to the 2nd of May or the 15th of May? It's not

12 clear to me.

13 Q. The 2nd of May.

14 A. Well, I almost remember the entire text. The letterhead said "The

15 Municipality of Foca, the Assembly," then, "The Executive Council of the

16 Municipal Assembly of Foca," and then it said the date. "Dolas Radomir is

17 given temporary work obligation at the printing press in the Drina unit.

18 Signature, President of the Executive Council, Radojica Mladjenovic."

19 Perhaps I didn't get it right word-for-word, but that's the gist

20 of it. I can't remember what it was called, an order or a decision,

21 because the executive council has the right to pass orders. And that was

22 valid until the 15th of May.

23 Q. Do you still have this document? Because you can recite it so

24 well. Do you still have it?

25 A. I've paraphrased it. I might have it, but I'm not sure. Believe

Page 5846













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5847

1 me, I'm not sure.

2 Q. And in this second document, this document from the 15th of May,

3 what did it say in regard of the duties, of your duties?

4 A. The commission that is referred to only wrote on the back of this

5 paper where I was being sent and they put a stamp on it. There was no

6 decision actually. It says, "Dolas, Radomir, call-up." Got this call-up,

7 right. And then I reported to the commission. They turned the paper on

8 the other side and they said, "Report to the KP Dom printing press." I

9 don't know who signed it exactly. There was a stamp, that's it. That's

10 how it was during those months.

11 Q. And the call-up came from the military command, right?

12 A. That call-up came from the military department. Before the war it

13 was the military department or, rather, the Ministry of National Defence,

14 the department in Foca. They were the ones who were always in charge of

15 mobilisation, and they were the ones who prepared call-up papers. So

16 Ministry of National Defence department, in Foca, that was their official

17 name.

18 With this call-up paper from the Ministry, we report to the

19 Mobilisation Commission.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. That's what the procedure was then. And I really don't know

22 anything else, and there's nothing else I can say in addition to that.

23 Q. Now, you said that it said that you had to report to the KP Dom

24 printing press, but who then assigned you the guard duty?

25 A. I said the printing press, and I also said if necessary the guard

Page 5848

1 service. So I then reported to its commander, Mitar Rasevic. For work

2 related to the principles -- printing press I reported to Milorad

3 Krnojelac because he was working as the Director of the Drina Economic

4 Unit. That was quite clear.

5 Q. Mr. Dolas, you said you had these two assignments related to

6 KP Dom on one piece of paper, actually on the back side of the call-up,

7 and you went with this paper to the KP Dom and reported, right?

8 A. Yes. Yes, that's where I reported.

9 Q. And you went to the warden, Mr. Krnojelac?

10 A. Of course I first went to Mr. Krnojelac in relation to the

11 printing press. As for guard duty, Mr. Krnojelac sent me to Mitar

12 Rasevic, the commander of the guards. Before the war it was called the

13 head of the guards and then it was called commander of the guards.

14 Q. Who gave you the details of your job in relation to the printing

15 press? You reported to Mr. Krnojelac. Who told you exactly what you had

16 to do at the printing press? Who told you details?

17 A. I don't really understand this. I'm so sorry.

18 Q. Before you can start work in the printing press, you need to know

19 what you are supposed to do and someone has to tell you. A superior has

20 to tell you.

21 Who told you the details of what you are going to do at the

22 printing press?

23 A. Mr. Krnojelac said to me, "Dolas, before the war you worked at the

24 printing press." He also gave me the keys. It was either him or the head

25 of the factory, Momo Krnojelac. I'm not sure. I think it was Mico

Page 5849

1 Krnojelac who gave me the keys. And he said, "Go and take care of that

2 printing press. The police are still guarding it. The windowpanes have

3 to be replaced. It has to be cleaned up and proper industrial order

4 should be re-established so that this printing press could do something."

5 That's what Mr. Krnojelac told me.

6 Q. And when you had any problems at the printing press while you were

7 working there, did you then go to Mr. Krnojelac to discuss that or was

8 there someone in between the chain of command?

9 A. There was no one in between. I knew that Mr. Krnojelac was

10 performing the function of director because the printing press is attached

11 to the Drina Economic Unit. So if there was any problem, I addressed

12 Mr. Milorad Krnojelac only.

13 Q. And in relation to this other position you had, the guard

14 position, Mr. Krnojelac told you to speak with Mr. Rasevic about the

15 details, right, because he is the guard commander?

16 JUDGE HUNT: We've only got a nod there.


18 Q. Your answer was "Yes," right?

19 A. Yes, yes. I do apologise. Yes.

20 Q. You have to say yes or no. You said that the printing press

21 started working right from the beginning after this -- you fixed it. Were

22 you the only worker there during the entire time or did you have some

23 workers with you there?

24 A. I was the one and only worker because there was little work, first

25 and foremost. Number two, there weren't any skilled workers for that kind

Page 5850

1 of job. I worked for 20 years. I don't want to say that I really became

2 an expert in printing, but that's not far away from the truth either. It

3 was not really necessary for us to take on any other workers, and we

4 really didn't have any choice either.

5 Q. And you were the only worker throughout your time at the KP Dom or

6 did other workers join you at a later stage?

7 A. Nobody joined me, nobody.

8 Q. You mentioned that you mostly worked for the army, and if you got

9 such tasks, let's say the bulletins, who gave you these tasks, did the

10 army officers come to you or how did you get your assignments?

11 A. At that time the commander of the Foca Tactical Group was Colonel

12 Marko Kovac. He established an editorial board which included Radisav

13 Masic, the then editor in chief of Radio Foca. It had also become Radio

14 Srbinje, actually. Miroje Vukovic --

15 Q. Who was that?

16 A. -- and I -- Miroje Vukovic was at the command for four months and

17 then he deserted to Montenegro. He was a reserve Major. Miroje Vukovic,

18 a Montenegrin. And he deserted, went to Montenegro. He was on the

19 editorial board, and then I was on the editorial board, but as a technical

20 person in charge of printing. The complete preparation for printing and

21 the printing itself was carried out by me.

22 Q. So this editorial board gave you your tasks in relation to the

23 bulletins, but what about the other tasks that you had, the other

24 printings that you had to make for the military? Who gave you these

25 tasks?

Page 5851

1 A. Well, for the most part, I said it was call-up papers for the

2 army, for the Ministry of National Defence. There were lots of call-up

3 papers. Very often I printed call-up papers for the front line, and other

4 call-up papers, all that went through the ministry, and of course people

5 would report to the military with these call-up papers, you see.

6 Q. Yes, but my question actually was: When you had to print call-up

7 papers, did a military person come to your office in the printing press

8 and give you this assignment or did it come through the KP Dom

9 administration to you?

10 A. No. They came to me directly. They came to me directly. The

11 printing press was outside the compound. Or they would send a car to pick

12 me up and take me to the command in Velecevo. That is where it was then.

13 It was usually people from the personnel department, administrative people

14 who came, because this was done rarely for the Foca Tactical Group. More

15 work was done for the Ministry of Defence. This was work that had to do

16 with the army.

17 Q. And when you had work to do for the Ministry of Defence, how did

18 you get these assignments?

19 A. They would send a clerk to me who would bring me a sample, and

20 then I would do it. And when it was completed, I would draw up a waybill

21 and an invoice and deliver it. That is what I was in charge with.

22 Whether it was ever paid or not, I don't know. I did write an invoice.

23 And I received these orders from the director because this was the usual

24 procedure even before the war. When you completed a job, you had to draw

25 up an invoice. However, collecting the money was another matter.

Page 5852













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5853

1 Q. It says -- you said, "I received these orders from the director."

2 Which orders and which director do you mean now?

3 A. I'm sorry. What are you referring to? I'm losing concentration.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The witness said "director," not

5 "manager," so it was not translated in the same way into B/C/S.

6 A. I said "director."

7 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, sir.

8 Which particular passage are you referring to, Mr. Vasic?

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the passage where

10 the witness says he got orders to write invoices, and he said he got these

11 orders from the manager and not the warden.

12 JUDGE HUNT: So you're saying that the interpretation of the

13 answer is incorrect, that he used the word "manager" and not "director"?

14 If you look at the transcript, the word "director" clearly appears.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but when my learned

16 colleague went on and asked him to clarify, she asked the witness why the

17 interpreter translated it into B/C/S as "warden," and he had said

18 "director," which is in the transcript. So obviously the interpretation

19 of my learned friend's question was not correct, because instead of the

20 word "director," which she used in English, it was interpreted to the

21 witness as "warden."

22 JUDGE HUNT: So you're worried about the interpretation into

23 B/C/S. I see. All right.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I understand.

25 JUDGE HUNT: If that has happened, I think perhaps,

Page 5854

1 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you had better go back and ask the question again.


3 Q. You mentioned that you received orders from the director in

4 relation to the invoices, and I actually asked you, "Which director do you

5 mean?" Do you mean Mr. Krnojelac?

6 A. I have already said that the director was Mr. Mico Krnojelac. He

7 was the director of the economic unit. He was my director, or rather, the

8 director of the Drina Economic Unit. The printing press was part of that

9 unit, so I don't see what can be unclear about this.

10 Q. And you mentioned the clerk that came from the Ministry of

11 Defence. Where was the office of the Ministry of Defence? Was it in Foca

12 or did this clerk come from somewhere else?

13 A. The office of the Ministry of Defence was across the road from the

14 municipality. It was always there. It was there before the war. That

15 was -- and also the Ministry of Interior, the police, was also there,

16 before the war and then.

17 Q. And you also worked for the KP Dom needs as such; right? If the

18 KP Dom needed forms or whatsoever, you printed them as well; right?

19 A. I mostly printed labels for furniture produced by the furniture

20 factory, because without these papers, goods could not be sold. I also

21 printed labels for the eggs produced on our farm, so I worked for the

22 Drina Economic Unit. There was no need to do any work for the KP Dom. I

23 printed these labels and what was needed for the Drina Economic Unit.

24 Q. And it was Mr. Krnojelac then who gave you such tasks, printing

25 this or that for the Drina, or who?

Page 5855

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Did you attend management meetings? Did you attend management

3 meetings with Mr. Krnojelac and other functionaries?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You mentioned the various sections of the Drina Economic Section,

6 and you mentioned the catering unit. Is that the restaurant Brioni, or

7 what did this section do?

8 A. The catering unit consisted of the Brioni Hotel and the

9 restaurant, the canteen, rather, beside the bridge. So the Brioni Motel

10 and the canteen were employees of KP Dom, and the Drina Economic Unit used

11 to eat -- before the war, before the war. We didn't always eat in the

12 compound. So it was these two restaurants that were part of the catering

13 unit, but they were unable to work for a long time, and for this reason

14 the employees of the Drina Economic Unit and the security guards had to

15 eat inside the compound.

16 Q. And from when onwards did the restaurant opposite the compound

17 work, start working? And Brioni, when did they start working?

18 A. I can't remember. For a long time they weren't working, but I

19 really can't remember when it was. I think it was Brioni that opened

20 first and then the canteen, but I can't remember the date or the month.

21 Q. The fish farm, you said it was destroyed or the fish were

22 released. When? Do you know when?

23 A. Well, the fish were released before I came to KP Dom, to the Drina

24 Economic Unit, before. I heard that from others. And as to who released

25 them, what fish exactly were released, I don't know, because the fish farm

Page 5856

1 is about

2 15 kilometres away from Foca. It's near Miljevina.

3 Q. And what was the name of the director of the Drina units before

4 the war? Do you know that?

5 A. Milenko Simovic.

6 Q. Why did he not continue in this function during the war? Do you

7 know that?

8 A. I don't know, but I do know he left before the war broke out.

9 When, I don't know, but he wasn't there when the war broke out in Foca.

10 That's what I heard from other people.

11 Q. And this Mr. Simovic, he ran the business unit only, right? This

12 was his only task, to run the business unit, right?

13 A. That was his task before the war, because there was a warden,

14 there was a director, but during the war, Mr. Krnojelac was the director

15 and he was in charge of that part of the KP Dom, the warden of that part

16 where convicts who had been sentenced before the war were serving their

17 sentences. As I said, there were 10 or 15 of them.

18 Q. Let me interrupt you. We are talking about Mr. Simovic.

19 Mr. Simovic ran the business units, and he had nothing to do with the

20 prisoners or with the detention of the prisoners before the war, right?

21 That was not his job. Isn't that right?

22 A. Mr. Simovic, before the war, was the director of the economic

23 unit. That's clear. And his authority was over the production part, so

24 he was directly in charge of the heads of the work units. So he was my

25 boss before the war. And before the war again, the warden was in charge

Page 5857

1 of everybody. He was superior to everybody. That's how it was before the

2 war. That was the organisation in the Ministry of Justice.

3 Q. And the warden was Mr. Tesovic before the war, right?

4 A. Radojica Tesovic, yes.

5 Q. And the other facilities, the other units like catering unit,

6 factories, they also had their section chief, right?

7 A. No, they didn't have their section chiefs. There was a director,

8 Milenko Simovic. Then there was the chief of the furniture factory, there

9 was the chief of the fish farm, there was the chief of the catering unit,

10 there was the chief of the printing press, there was the chief of the

11 metalworking unit, the chief of the building construction unit, and

12 Milenko Simovic was the director of all of them; that is, he was their

13 boss.

14 Q. Yes. That is actually what I meant. And during the war, you had

15 these different units within the Drina. Did they have their section

16 chiefs, like you for the printing press, and the other persons that you

17 just mentioned for the various other unit sections of the Drina? Did they

18 also remain there?

19 A. Well, it was like this: The chief of the metalworking unit was

20 Relja Goljanin, and he remained the chief. The chief of the factory was

21 Momo Krnojelac, and he remain the chief during the war. The chief of the

22 farm was Sulejman Hodzic, but he left before the war and he was replaced

23 by Novica Mojevic. The chief of the catering unit -- who was the chief of

24 the catering unit? I can't remember who the chief of the catering unit

25 was, but I was the chief of the printing press before the war, then I

Page 5858

1 retired, and then I was reappointed. The fish farm was closed down and

2 that was it.

3 Q. Those people that you just mentioned, they were all Serbs except

4 for Sulejman Hodzic, who was replaced, right?

5 A. He was not replaced. He simply left town. Because he can't stay

6 the chief if he's not in town. He left with his whole family.

7 Q. You said that you saw the damage in the administration building

8 when you came there and then you said you did not go further than that in

9 the beginning. Did you visit the other parts of the KP Dom later when you

10 worked there?

11 A. No, I didn't. As for the other parts of KP Dom, I did not visit

12 them except I would enter the compound at lunch-time, dinner-time, and

13 breakfast-time when I was doing my shift or working in the printing

14 press. I did not visit the other parts.

15 Q. You mentioned that this commission, this commission worked in the

16 KP Dom and made inventories of the various sections, especially the

17 warehouses. The warehouses in the KP Dom, how many warehouses were

18 there?

19 A. There was a central warehouse with materials for the furniture

20 factory and the other plants, all except the catering unit. That was a

21 central warehouse for the furniture, the metalworking unit. Then there

22 was another warehouse for the farm outside the compound and then there was

23 one for the canteen and one for food for the inmates. I know that those

24 warehouses existed.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

Page 5859

1 show the witness the Exhibit 6, the big -- the bigger plan. Yes, both.

2 Q. You do not need to point out the storage places of the factories.

3 Just show me the storage place, the food storage place. Where was this?

4 A. I find it hard to orient myself. This sketch is not clear to me.

5 Can I turn it like this? Yes.

6 Q. Have a look first to orient yourself and then we put it back.

7 A. Yes. Yes. Just so -- let me see. Let me see. You asked about

8 which warehouse? I apologise.

9 Q. For the food. Where the food for the KP Dom was stored.

10 A. Here, building number 1, and it was in the basement. No, sorry,

11 on the ground floor.

12 Q. Does that mean it was below Room 11? Is that the storage place,

13 below Room 11?

14 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps a photograph might be better.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I'm just looking for the photographs.

16 Yes. It's the photo 7476. Yes. You can replace it, yes. The top photo,

17 please.

18 Q. Is that the food -- where the food was stored?

19 A. Evidently, because that's what the sign says, and the sign was

20 made by me in the printing press. It says here, "Warehouse for Convicts'

21 Food."

22 JUDGE HUNT: That's what we've been calling the basement.


24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That's all right. We've got our terminology

25 straight now.

Page 5860

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you. You can put this away.

2 Q. It says the food for the convicts. Was there another food --

3 another storage place for food in the KP Dom, and if so, where was that?

4 A. Unprocessed food, that is, eggs, were kept at the farm and were

5 used to supply the town. Before the war, in the canteen and in the Brioni

6 Motel, there was a small storage area for raw materials such as meat,

7 milk, and other foodstuffs, but during the war, I don't know what happened

8 to that. This commission made an inventory, but I really have no idea how

9 much food was left.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

11 show you the photo 7512.

12 Q. You see the ground floor -- the basement or ground floor. Was

13 food stored in building 2, ground floor, as well or, rather, basement,

14 below the ground floor? You see this little door, this little door and

15 the few windows. What was stored -- yes.

16 A. You mean this here?

17 Q. Yes. What was stored there? Do you know that?

18 A. Before I retired, I know that there were big barrels for making

19 sauerkraut here for the convicts. You know, this was the sort of food

20 that we used in the winter. And later on, I don't know what was kept

21 there. It was probably used for the same purpose, but we didn't have

22 cabbage.

23 Q. Yes. And during the war, was there also other food stored in

24 there?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 5861

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. That's --

2 Q. You mentioned that food was transported to the central kitchen.

3 What do you mean by "central kitchen"?

4 A. Well, that was the only kitchen that existed. Before the war we

5 called it the central kitchen because there was a kitchen in the

6 restaurant or, rather, the canteen as well and then there was another one

7 at the Brioni Motel. So it was probably a slip when I said "central

8 kitchen," because it was the only kitchen during the war.

9 Q. Maybe I misunderstood you when you gave your testimony. I

10 understood that food from the KP Dom was transported somewhere else and

11 then returned in portions whenever it was needed. Isn't that what you

12 said?

13 A. I didn't say that. Food was prepared in that kitchen and

14 distributed in that kitchen. I don't remember having said that.

15 Q. Maybe because you used the words "central kitchen" that I thought

16 it was something else, but when you said "central kitchen," it was the

17 kitchen in the KP Dom?

18 A. Yes. It was the only kitchen. And we all took our food there,

19 all the inmates, the employees, everybody.

20 Q. Yes. And the food storage of the Brioni Hotel was at the Brioni

21 Hotel or where?

22 A. That was a motel, not a hotel - just a small correction - and the

23 storage was for making meat dishes to serve to the guests. Before the

24 war, the motel worked well. It was -- so it was just an auxiliary sort of

25 storage area where food was kept that was prepared for the guests before

Page 5862

1 the war.

2 Q. And you said that inventories of all these warehouses were made,

3 and you also mentioned a warehouse for inmates of the KP Dom. Do you mean

4 this storage place that you pointed out on the photo, or was there another

5 warehouse for inmates?

6 A. No. No. There was one storage area, only one, for all, and food

7 was kept there. The conditions were good, because it was in the basement,

8 it was big, the temperature was right. So everything was kept there, for

9 the inmates, for the employees, for everybody.

10 Q. And the hygienic necessities, where were these things stored?

11 Hygienic necessities, blankets, such things, where were they?

12 A. I don't know that.

13 Q. And you said that inventories were made, and what about the food

14 situation? For how many weeks was food stored there? Can you say

15 anything about the capacity that you found there?

16 A. I didn't say I was in the commission that took inventories in

17 other parts of the unit. They visited all the units, including the

18 printing press. I was not a member of that commission, so I don't know

19 what amounts of food there were.

20 Q. Thank you. While you worked as a guard, you got your tasks from

21 Mr. Rasevic; right?

22 A. From Mr. Rasevic, yes.

23 Q. You did not get orders from Mr. Todovic; right?

24 A. Todovic was in charge of the military part of the KP Dom. It was

25 only later.

Page 5863

1 Q. I just asked -- I don't want you to repeat this so often. We have

2 heard it enough.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, there's one thing that it does give rise to. I

4 think you should ask him specifically: Does he say that Mr. Todovic had

5 nothing to do with the Muslim detainees?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I'm coming to this.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, you're coming to it. All right.


9 Q. I was only asking him: You personally did not get any orders from

10 Mr. Todovic while you were on guard duty; right?

11 A. Mr. Todovic was in charge of questioning detainees, and my

12 superior for guard duty was exclusively Mitar Rasevic.

13 Q. We will talk about Mr. Todovic and his position tomorrow at

14 length. When you -- just one more question related to Mr. Rasevic. When

15 something happened that was important, you reported this to Mr. Rasevic;

16 right? If you had anything unusual, you reported to Mr. Rasevic, right,

17 in relation to guard duty?

18 A. My superior at guard duty was the person who was on duty at the

19 Dom, and then the hierarchy went on. So while I was doing guard duty, my

20 superior was the one who was on duty for the Dom.

21 Q. And did you inform him verbally or did you put something down in

22 writing?

23 A. No. Nothing was done in writing. It was just oral. The guard

24 duty would be handed over, another two guards would arrive, we would

25 report to the one on duty and he would tell us we were free to go until it

Page 5864

1 was my turn again, and that wasn't very often.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

3 Your Honour, it's 4.00.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Again, it's after 4.00, but nevertheless we will

5 adjourn now. We'll resume at 9.30 in the morning.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.02 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of May,

8 2001, at 9.30 a.m.