Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5865

1 Thursday, 10 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.39 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry for the late start. The reason was they

10 lost Mr. Dolas somewhere in the building.

11 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dolas.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. Yesterday you mentioned that you stood guard on the top floor of

19 the administration building, and I would like you to point out where

20 exactly you did your job in the administration building. And with the

21 help of the usher, I would like to show you the floor plan 6/3A. If you

22 look at the lower part of this plan, the lower part of this plan -- can

23 you move it a little bit up? Yes. Please look at this lower part

24 of -- we need to see the entire lower part. Yes. Thank you. Can you

25 point out where exactly you were when you did your guard duty?

Page 5866

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. You just pointed at the staircase. Can you orient yourself --

3 A. I can't do it on the monitor. Can I have a look at the original?

4 Q. Yes, please. Maybe you first take it in front of you on the desk

5 and look at it and then we put it on the ELMO. Maybe it's easier if you

6 look at it first.

7 A. Yes, it's easier like this. I have to orient myself first.

8 Q. It's the administration building seen from the River Drina. You

9 see the staircase at the right-hand side of the building? You see that?

10 This is where the little arrows are.

11 A. Yes, I see the staircase. I see it.

12 Q. Yes. Are you now able to point out the room where you stood

13 guard?

14 A. [Indicates]

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the next room left

16 from the staircase.

17 Q. Yes, thank you. We have to leave the floor plan there.

18 Mr. Dolas, it's the same floor as the warden's office; right?

19 A. It is on the same floor as the warden's office but on the opposite

20 side. So it is on the same floor.

21 Q. What do you mean by "the opposite side"? You mean at the opposite

22 side -- at the end of the corridor; is that what you mean? The warden's

23 office is on the --

24 A. The end of the corridor.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 5867

1 A. When you look away from the River Drina, it's on the left-hand

2 side, at the end of the corridor. That's where the warden's office is.

3 At the end of the second corridor is the post where I kept guard, so it's

4 next to that same corridor.

5 Q. What do you mean by second corridor? If you look at this floor

6 plan, there is only one long corridor, and at the end is the warden's

7 office. That's correct, isn't it?

8 A. It's the same corridor, but it was on two opposite sides of that

9 corridor. The guard post and the office were on two opposite sides of the

10 same corridor.

11 Q. Yes, yes, thank you. Mr. Todovic, where was his office?

12 A. I don't really -- can't really orient myself very well on these

13 drawings, but I know that it was on the left-hand side and that you first

14 entered a joint office, a kind of lobby where the warden's office was, and

15 at the other end of this little room was Savo Todovic's office.

16 I'll try to show it, but I'm not absolutely certain because this

17 drawing is not really clear to me. I know the KP Dom very well indeed,

18 but this drawing I find --

19 Q. Try it, try it if you can. If it is not possible, just -- we can

20 also leave it. If you're not comfortable with showing it. I mean, you

21 have given an explanation that is actually sufficient.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, we can put the sketch aside.

23 Q. Mr. Krnojelac was sitting in the warden's office, right?

24 A. Yes, in the warden's office for the part for convicts who were

25 already serving their sentences, and it was also the office of the

Page 5868

1 director of the Drina Economic Unit.

2 Q. In the KP Dom was only one warden's office, right? There was only

3 one warden's office, and it was bigger than any other office in the KP

4 Dom, right? Isn't that right?

5 A. Before the war, there was really only one warden's office. In

6 this little vestibule was also the office of the deputy warden which was

7 entered from that vestibule, and Savo Todovic had his office there. So

8 first of all, there was a vestibule where a secretary sat. I'm talking

9 about before the war. On the right-hand side was the warden's office and

10 on the left-hand side the deputy warden's office. That was before the

11 war.

12 And now during the war, the warden was also the director. Mico

13 Krnojelac sat in the office, and then next -- not next to him, but across

14 from him was Mr. Savo Todovic who was in charge of the inmates and the

15 convicts.

16 Q. Let's just stick to the rooms. Mr. Krnojelac was sitting in the

17 warden's office, in the office where the former warden had sat, and

18 Mr. Todovic was sitting in the office of the deputy warden, right? Yes or

19 no. Yes?

20 A. Yes, yes, yes.

21 Q. And they shared a secretary, right?

22 A. They shared a secretary, of course, yes.

23 Q. And you saw Mr. Todovic and Mr. Krnojelac consult each other,

24 right?

25 A. I didn't see that, no.

Page 5869

1 Q. There was a machine-gun nest on this floor, facing the prisoners'

2 quarters, right?

3 A. Can I explain a little?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. When we took over guard duty from some sort of paramilitary units,

6 I don't know exactly who they were, but when the Serbian army took over,

7 we found two machine-guns in that room. One was facing the compound, the

8 other was facing the bridge.

9 Seven or eight days later, I don't know at whose initiative, but

10 probably at the initiative of the guards who were standing guard there but

11 I'm not sure, the machine-gun facing the compound of the KP Dom was

12 removed. The machine-gun facing the bridge, because of the security of

13 the Dom in those first months, was left there. I don't know how long, but

14 it remained there.

15 And nobody ever fired a single shot from either of those two

16 machine-guns, and people kept guard at these machine-guns who were like

17 me, who had never been in the army, who had never held a weapon in their

18 hands and would not know how to use it.

19 Q. In which room was the machine-gun facing the prisoners' quarters?

20 In which of the rooms was it? In the room where you stood guard, or

21 where?

22 A. It was in the lawyer's office. There was a lawyer there before

23 the war, Milan Vujevic, and there was a vestibule where a typist sat

24 before the war, and it was facing -- that one was facing the River Drina,

25 and in the warden's office it was facing the compound, but it was there

Page 5870

1 for a short time.

2 Q. Did you ever use -- did you man actually the machine-gun in the

3 lawyer's office?

4 A. It stood in the lawyer's office, and then it was taken to the

5 armoury of the Security Service, the guards. That's how it was before the

6 war, the depot of the security guards where they kept weapons. But it was

7 no longer in the office. After some ten days, it was removed.

8 Q. The office of the lawyer, you actually mentioned in your previous

9 statement to Defence counsels that you stood guard in the office of this

10 lawyer. Is that the room that you pointed out to us?

11 A. Yes, that's the room. Whether I indicated it correctly, I'm not

12 absolutely sure, but that is the room, the lawyer's office.

13 Q. But this lawyer's office faces the compound; it doesn't face the

14 street, does it?

15 A. You enter that lawyer's office through two doors. From the

16 corridor, you first enter the typist's office as a kind of vestibule, and

17 the window of the typist's office faces the Drina. And then there is

18 another door leading into the lawyer's office, and the window of the

19 lawyer's office faces the KP Dom compound.

20 Q. Let's have a look at the sketch again, 6/3A, the same exhibit.

21 Please, Mr. Dolas, have another look at this sketch. The corridor is

22 actually running along all rooms, and the corridor is actually facing the

23 street and the Drina and not the rooms, or is there a mistake?

24 A. Yes. Yes, the corridor faces the Drina. It faces the Drina, but

25 this staircase is not clear to me here. I think that there is a part that

Page 5871

1 is not shown on this sketch, because when I look at this staircase, I do

2 not see the door leading from the corridor, from the corridor into the

3 typist's office, and the door leading from that office into the lawyer's

4 office. So this staircase confuses me. Just a moment, please.

5 This staircase is in the middle. It's really - and I'm sure of

6 this - the end of the corridor in which the warden's office is, but there

7 is another piece of corridor missing here, in my view, where the lawyer's

8 office was, or perhaps I'm confused. I'm not sure.

9 Q. Okay. Yes. Let's put the sketch aside.

10 A. But I can describe exactly where I was. It's just that this

11 sketch I find really confusing.

12 Q. You were in the room facing the prisoners' compound. You said

13 that your duty was to observe the prisoners in the compound; right?

14 A. Yes. I said that my duty was to watch the inmates in the compound

15 when they were having breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That was my main

16 task. Because they went room by room, in line.

17 Q. And you spoke -- you said yesterday that you had 12 hours' shift,

18 so you did that during these 12 hours, most of the time?

19 A. Mostly.

20 Q. And the 12-hour shift, from when to when did this go? When did

21 the shift start and end?

22 A. In those months, it was from 6.00 a.m. until 1800 hours - in other

23 words, 6.00 p.m., or 1800 hours - and from 1800 hours in the evening until

24 6.00 in the morning.

25 Q. And you worked during the daytime and the nighttime; right?

Page 5872

1 A. You mean as a guard?

2 Q. Yes, as a guard.

3 A. Well, yesterday I said that in the first three or four months I

4 spent most of my time at the printing press, and I explained why, and

5 perhaps once or twice a month I would have to do a 12-hour shift.

6 Q. Yes, but that was not my question. My question was: You also

7 stood guard during nighttime; right?

8 A. I apologise. It did happen at nighttime, but very rarely. I

9 think it was only on two occasions that I kept guard at night because of

10 my eyesight. You see, my eyesight is bad, which is why they did not

11 assign me to nighttime shifts, because, as you know, my eyesight is so

12 poor that I was released from the army once.

13 Q. These two occasions that you stood guard at nighttime, was it in

14 these first months, that is, May to April - no - May to August?

15 A. I don't remember. I don't think I did in the first few months,

16 because, as I said in my statement, I printed bulletins for the Foca

17 Tactical Group at night. So in those first months they really did not put

18 me on night shifts. I mostly did day shifts.

19 Q. During these first few months, that is, May to July, or perhaps

20 even August, you hardly were at the KP Dom; right? You were at the press,

21 the printing press; right?

22 A. Just so.

23 Q. And after August, how often did you work in the KP Dom as guard?

24 It was more often; right?

25 A. Well, it was a little more often, but I was not a professional

Page 5873













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Page 5874

1 guard, so perhaps once a week it was my turn to take a shift, and mostly

2 by day. As I said, they didn't assign me to night shifts because of my

3 poor eyesight. And when a professional guard or someone from my shift was

4 sent to the front line, I would step in, but only on that guard post and

5 only by day. Later on, the shifts were reduced to eight hours, so it

6 became easier.

7 Q. When was that, the 8-hour shifts? When were they introduced?

8 Which month? Do you recall?

9 A. I cannot recall. I cannot recall when they were introduced, but

10 these were regular shifts that operated before the war and that operate

11 now as well, 8-hour shifts.

12 Q. When you observed the detainees in the yard, you observed all

13 inmates, right, no matter which category they were; right?

14 A. Quite naturally, I observed everything until they were taken out

15 for meals and brought back after meals.

16 Q. And the other guards, your colleagues, they also attended to all

17 inmates, regardless whether they were Muslims, military Serbs detained for

18 military reasons, or these Serbs serving sentences; right?

19 A. I am not aware of what was going on in the compound, nor was that

20 my duty. My task was to observe all detainees and prisoners who were

21 going to breakfast, lunch, and dinner. As for the compound, I don't know,

22 because I would enter the compound only when I myself went to have lunch.

23 Q. So you did not see much of what other staff members did; right?

24 A. I didn't see much of what other staff members did, because it was

25 the guard in charge of the compound who would line up people in the

Page 5875

1 different rooms and take them to lunch or any other meal. It was my duty

2 only to observe them, but it was a formal thing, lest something should

3 happen.

4 Q. And you also did not see much of what the staff members in the

5 administration building did, right?

6 A. No. As I said already, I spent quite a bit of time at the

7 printing press. I hardly ever came for shifts. I showed you where I

8 live. That's near the printing press, right? The yellow building. So I

9 spent my free time at home and at the printing office. And I entered the

10 compound only when I was on guard duty so that I could have lunch, that's

11 all. As for the rest, I was at home, and I ate at home, too.

12 Q. Did you stand guard in the second half of June 1992? Do you

13 recall that? In particular, Vidovdan.

14 A. I know very well that I did not work around Vidovdan because I

15 went to church. I know exactly, it's the 28th of June, Vidovdan, right?

16 I know I went to church. And before and after around the 28th, I did not

17 work.

18 Q. Do you know Mustafa Kuloglija, a teacher, a teacher like you?

19 A. I know Mustafa Kuloglija by sight. His wife Fikreta went to

20 elementary school with me, so that's how I know him, basically.

21 Q. You saw him at the KP Dom, didn't you, as a detainee?

22 A. I did not see him at the KP Dom.

23 Q. Do you know the teacher Kemal Dzelilovic?

24 A. Professor Kemal Dzelilovic worked at the high school. He was my

25 daughter's teacher. I knew him before the war. It's not that we were

Page 5876

1 particularly close, but I do know that he taught my daughter at least

2 seven subjects, or something like that. Something to do with machine

3 building.

4 Q. He was detained in KP Dom at that time. You're aware of that,

5 right?

6 A. No, I'm not aware of that because I didn't see him because the

7 lists were not accessible to me. But even if they were, I would not -- I

8 did not see him at the KP Dom.

9 Q. What list do you mean? You said, "I didn't see the list." What

10 list?

11 A. No, I just said this automatically. There weren't any lists. I

12 just didn't see him, that's all.

13 Q. You were present end of October when soldiers or policemen from

14 Konjic took out Muslim detainees for exchange. Do you recall that?

15 A. I did not say that these were policeman from Konjic. I did not

16 say where they were from. I said that a military truck came with soldiers

17 in military camouflage uniforms. I did not know where they were from.

18 And I just happened to be there in passing and I saw guards from the

19 compound taking a certain number of Muslim detainees out of the compound,

20 that they were being searched by the members of the military who came to

21 get them, that they were brought into the truck, and that's what I said.

22 I think there were about 20 of them.

23 Q. What time was it? You said already that it was autumn 1992, but

24 what time of the day was it when you saw that?

25 A. Well, sometime around noon.

Page 5877

1 Q. You said that you saw this happen during passing. Where were

2 you? Were you outside the KP Dom, going inside, or what?

3 A. I was going from the printing press. I came to the gate. I saw

4 this in passing, and I went to our canteen to have a cup of coffee,

5 because our canteen was at the administration building where we could have

6 coffee, fruit juice, tea. I didn't have any of that in the printing

7 press.

8 Q. You said about 20 detainees were taken. Do you recall any name?

9 Did you recognise any of the detainees?

10 A. No, I did not. I told you, I didn't stay there. I was just

11 passing, I didn't stop at all, and I don't remember having recognised any

12 of them. I simply can't remember.

13 Q. Which guard took the detainees to the soldiers?

14 A. I cannot remember the name, but usually it would be the guard in

15 charge of the compound. He would hand them over to the person on duty of

16 the KP Dom, and then ...

17 Q. Mr. Todovic, was he present when that happened, when you passed

18 by?

19 A. Yes, Mr. Todovic was present, and he was precisely in charge of

20 these exchanges.

21 Q. And Mr. Rasevic, was he present?

22 A. I did not see Mr. Rasevic because his office was in the other

23 building, upstairs. I did not see him. And when passing just briefly,

24 one cannot observe everything, let alone remember everything.

25 Q. You said yesterday that Mr. -- these persons were called out

Page 5878

1 according to a list made by Mr. Savo Todovic. You said that, right?

2 A. Yes, that's right. That's the way it was.

3 Q. You did not see Mr. Todovic make the list, right?

4 A. I did not.

5 Q. You actually did not really know what he was doing because you

6 were not there too often, right?

7 A. I don't understand this question, I'm so sorry.

8 Q. You said that Mr. Todovic made the list, but you didn't see him

9 make the list. And you also mentioned that you were rarely there in the

10 KP Dom, and you did not see what other staff members did. And you --

11 that's right, right?

12 A. Yes. I was at the KP Dom rarely, and I did not see what other

13 members of security did, but in conversation with my colleagues, the

14 guards, we often talked, and I found out that Savo was giving them lists

15 and they were taking people out for exchanges in accordance with those

16 lists.

17 Q. But you do not know who made the list, right? You do not know who

18 made these lists.

19 A. Of course I don't, of course I don't. That was not accessible to

20 me.

21 Q. And you do not know how -- if these lists were made in the KP Dom

22 at all, if they came from outside. You also do not know that, right?

23 A. I don't know, I don't.

24 Q. But you said Mr. Savo Todovic made the list, so that's wrong.

25 That is just speculation, right? Pure speculation.

Page 5879

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, this is not your witness. This is

3 Mr. Vasic's witness. Now, you will have to sort it out amongst yourselves

4 who is going to do this.

5 Yes, do you wish to object, Mr. Vasic?

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The witness said

7 that Savo Todovic gave lists to the guards so that they would take

8 detainees out. That is number 13, line 12.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, yesterday --

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. And the next question also is the one that you

11 are now pressing, that, "But you do not know who made the list, right?"

12 and, "You do not know who made these lists." And the answer is, "Of

13 course I don't, of course I don't."

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And yesterday this witness said Mr. Savo

15 Todovic made the lists, and I asked him this is only his assumption.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, now he says he doesn't know who did it.

17 What's the problem? It means that yesterday's answer is useless, and he

18 has conceded it to be so.


20 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think you have to underline every point time

21 and time again, just as the witness does not need to tell us the same

22 thing time and time again. But you may rest assured that yesterday's

23 answer is completely useless.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Your Honour, I want to ask a different

25 thing.

Page 5880













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Page 5881

1 JUDGE HUNT: By all means, go ahead and do so, but you've got your

2 answer. He's conceded he did not know when Mr. Todovic made out the

3 lists.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Okay. I'll move on.

5 Q. Were you present when Muslim detainees were taken out for plum

6 picking?

7 A. Plum picking? I was not present.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... picking. But you know about

9 the plum pickers; right?

10 A. I don't know about that.

11 Q. Were you present when Pero Elez came to the prison to collect 30

12 Muslim men from Miljevina?

13 A. I was not present.

14 Q. The plum pickers were taken away in the middle of September 1992.

15 Do you recall that you stood guard in the middle of September?

16 A. I could not remember. After all, it's been nine years. I don't

17 remember.

18 Q. This one exchange that you just described to us, was that the

19 only -- that was not the only exchange you saw; right? You saw other

20 exchanges as well?

21 A. I did not see any other exchange, but in conversation with my

22 colleagues, the guards, I found out that there were other exchanges too.

23 But who, when, et cetera, I didn't know that, nor was I interested, to

24 tell you the truth. Believe me. Nor did I see it.

25 Q. You said that you observed the detainees, all detainees, in the

Page 5882

1 yard. You saw Serb detainees playing soccer; right?

2 A. During those months, soccer was not played, no, certainly not. I

3 am sure that no detainees played soccer, Serb or others. No.

4 Q. You say "during those months." To which months do you refer?

5 A. Well, I'm referring to the four or five months of 1992 up to the

6 month of October. There wasn't any soccer, that's for sure.

7 Q. And after October, you saw Serb detainees playing soccer in the

8 yard; right?

9 A. After October, there is lots of snow in our parts and you can't

10 play soccer then.

11 Q. And when winter is over and springtime is there and there is no

12 more snow?

13 A. Possibly the next year, 1993, that soccer was played. In the KP

14 Dom soccer was played before the war. There was even an entire league of

15 convicts.

16 Q. I'm not talking -- please stick to --

17 A. All right.

18 Q. So in 1993, when the snow was gone, you saw the Serb detainees

19 playing soccer, you saw them walking in the yard, right, the Serb

20 detainees, not the Muslims?

21 A. The Muslims went out for walks, the Serbs went out for walks. All

22 of this was part of the house rules. I don't remember anything that went

23 beyond the house rules. I know that a group of Muslims was chopping

24 firewood in the compound the entire day and nobody did anything to them.

25 As for soccer, I guess it was played. It wasn't any special game. The

Page 5883

1 cooks would play a bit of soccer, whatever. That would last for about

2 half an hour and then they would go to their rooms when the time for the

3 walk was over. Walks were compulsory for all.

4 Q. The Muslims went out for walks only in 1993; right? They did not

5 walk out -- go out for walks in 1992; isn't that right?

6 A. That's not right. As far as I know, there were short walks.

7 People were taken out of rooms. It wasn't long walks, perhaps 20 minutes

8 around the compound, but I know for sure that there were walks, both for

9 the Muslims and for the Serbs, but separately, of course, according to the

10 rooms they were staying at.

11 Q. Yesterday you said that Mr. Krnojelac was not the warden of the KP

12 Dom; he was just the director of the Drina, and he also had dealings with

13 the Serbs serving sentences. That's what you said yesterday. But

14 Mr. Krnojelac was appointed warden by the Ministry of Justice in 1992, in

15 summer 1992; right? You're aware of that; right?

16 A. I'm not aware of that.

17 Q. But you know that Mr. Todovic was appointed deputy warden. That

18 is what you know, but not Mr. Krnojelac's appointment?

19 A. In my statement, my written statement, I said that Mr. Todovic was

20 later appointed deputy warden. I think it was 1993. Now I know for sure

21 that he was appointed in September 1993, when Mico was relieved of duty

22 and when the new warden came, Zoran Krnojelac [sic], and the new director,

23 Radojica Tesevic. That's when Mr. Todovic was appointed deputy warden by

24 the decision of the ministry. As for before, I don't know about that.

25 Q. In the transcript it says "Zoran Krnojelac," but you meant Zoran

Page 5884

1 Sekulovic; right?

2 A. Zoran Sekulovic, yes. I do apologise.

3 Q. Mr. Todovic was in charge of the prisoners' affairs before the

4 war; right? That was his job before the war. He dealt with the serving

5 of the sentences; right?

6 A. Yes. Mr. Todovic was the clerk for criminal sentences before the

7 war. All the prisoners' files were kept in his office. He had all of

8 that.

9 Q. And that is actually what he did during the war, isn't it? He

10 dealt with the detainees.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Detainees of all categories, right: the Muslims, the Serbs that

13 were there on behalf of the military, and the Serbs serving sentences;

14 right?

15 A. As far as I know, he did not have anything to do with those

16 convicts who happened to be there when the war broke out. They were at

17 the KP Dom. There were 10 or 15 of them. I can't remember exactly how

18 many of them there were.

19 Q. But you were not there. You were very rarely in the KP Dom, so

20 you do not know; right? You do not know what exactly Mr. Todovic did;

21 right?

22 A. Savo Todovic is a neighbour of mine. We live in the same

23 building. And very often he came to see me at the printing press and we

24 talked, so I found out about that from my conversations with him. I could

25 not see that, but we socialised a lot. He came to see me at the printing

Page 5885

1 press.

2 Q. Mr. Dolas, you gave a statement to the Defence investigators on

3 the 17th of February, 2001. Do you recall that?

4 A. I remember it very well, very well. I gave this statement to

5 Mr. Milenko Dundjer, and it lasted a pretty long while. Mrs. Krnojelac

6 was present. I don't know the other last name she has. That's Momo

7 Krnojelac's wife. He was head of the furniture factory at the KP Dom. He

8 is head of the furniture factory at the KP Dom even now.

9 Q. And this statement was taken in the Cafe Gong; right?

10 A. I gave that statement at the Cafe Gong; that's right.

11 Q. And you said it took quite some time and you gave your statement

12 thoroughly; right?

13 A. We talked for a while, about an hour, maybe, and then Mr. Dundjer,

14 on the basis of that conversation, took notes -- I mean, he had taken

15 notes, and then he drew up my statement, of course.

16 Q. You read it afterwards and you signed it; right?

17 A. I read it and signed it, and I also got a copy. I still have it.

18 I have it here with me.

19 Q. And you told Mr. Dundjer everything you knew which was important

20 in relation to Mr. Krnojelac's position and Mr. Todovic's position;

21 right?

22 A. I said everything I could remember and what I thought was relevant

23 to the position of Mr. Krnojelac and of Mr. Todovic.

24 Q. But in this statement, you do not mention that you had

25 conversations with Mr. Todovic about his position and that he confirmed

Page 5886

1 his strong position in the KP Dom. There's no word about this, right?

2 You didn't say that.

3 A. Well, I think I said a lot more than you can see in this

4 statement. You can read this statement in five minutes. And you, I mean

5 you and the Defence, have been questioning me for over three hours now,

6 and of course I said things that I did not say in that statement. A

7 person's memory is jogged and a person remembers. These are subsequent

8 recollections.

9 Q. You claim that you saw papers later on in Velecevo with the

10 wartime assignments of Mr. Todovic, but it's not mentioned in your

11 statement, and it's important, isn't it?

12 A. I remembered that subsequently as well, because I did not even say

13 there that I worked for a year at the brigade command, which was not

14 stationed in Velecevo at the time. It had been transferred to another

15 location. That was 1995. I worked as a typist or, rather, an

16 administrative technical clerk. My office was close to Mr. Boro

17 Ivanovic's office. Of course, we had normal contacts, and I saw Savo as

18 he came. I said once when Savo was supposed to be mobilised that Mr. Boro

19 intervened with commander Paprica, that he not be mobilised because in the

20 KP Dom, he's in charge of the military part and that Boro is his boss.

21 That's what I said yesterday.

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. I remembered that subsequently.

24 Q. You said that yesterday. Wait, wait for my question. Wait for my

25 question.

Page 5887













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5888

1 A. That's the truth.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Please --


4 Q. You said that yesterday, but it's not in your statement that Boro

5 Ivanovic intervened and spoke about Savo Todovic's position. It's not in

6 your statement, right?

7 A. That is not in my statement, that's right.

8 Q. Were you on guard duty when the detainee Ekrem Zekovic escaped?

9 A. No, I was not on guard then, but when I went to KP Dom for my

10 meals, I heard that he had escaped from the officer on duty there.

11 Q. The detainees, the Muslims detainees in the KP Dom were punished,

12 collectively punished for this escape, right?

13 A. I do not know that, believe me.

14 Q. What were the consequences for the guards who were on duty on the

15 day of the escape?

16 A. I don't even remember the day when it happened, and I do not know

17 what the consequences were. I do not know.

18 Q. Mr. Krnojelac was replaced after the escape, right?

19 A. I do not know if Mr. Krnojelac was replaced after the escape

20 because I do not know when the escape was. I know the change took place

21 in the autumn; I believe it was September 1993. But whether Mr. Krnojelac

22 was dismissed because of that or something else is not something that I

23 know.

24 Q. In your statement to the Defence investigators, you mentioned that

25 the prisoners of war were investigated by Savo Todovic and the security

Page 5889

1 officer. Do you recall that, that you said that?

2 A. Yes, I remember saying that. Excuse me, Security Services in the

3 army, I think I said.

4 Q. And the security -- no, you said -- actually, you said -- let me

5 see. War -- I cite from your statement, "War prisoners were investigated

6 by Savo Todovic and the security officer of the brigade." Is that -- who

7 is the -- is that Mr. Boro Ivanovic that you mentioned, or who?

8 A. In those initial months I'm not sure because the security officers

9 who came from the brigade often changed, but at that time Boro was a

10 commander, battalion commander, I think, and came only later. When, I do

11 not know, but it was in 1992 in any event. And security officers from the

12 brigade often changed so that I cannot recall none of them at the moment.

13 Q. When you said "were investigated," that means they were

14 interrogated, right?

15 A. Yes, they were interrogated. To my mind, it is a normal procedure

16 to have people interrogated.

17 Q. But you, during -- this interrogation took place between May and

18 July 1992, right? Was that a yes?

19 A. Yes, that is when the interrogations took place.

20 Q. But you were hardly there in the KP Dom during these months,

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you never took detainees to such interrogations, right?

24 A. No, because that was the exclusive jurisdiction of the compound

25 officer and the officer on duty of the Dom.

Page 5890

1 Q. So you don't know who conducted the interrogations, and you don't

2 know who actually started the process, right? You were not there.

3 A. I really was not there, and I learned from what my colleagues

4 said, those who did that, who performed their job, and brought in

5 prisoners from the compound. Because we socialised, we socialised and

6 there we socialised and talked about these things quite often. Indeed, I

7 was not present, but from the stories of others, I learned about that.

8 Whether it is enough for it to make it authentic, I don't know.

9 Q. These other guards told you that detainees were tortured, beaten

10 up, and killed during these months, right?

11 A. No, they never told me that.

12 Q. We just addressed the escape of Mr. Zekovic, and you said you do

13 not know if anybody was disciplined. What kind of discipline for guards

14 were in place, especially for mistreatment of detainees?

15 A. I do not know what kind of punishment was envisaged for the

16 maltreatment of prisoners, but I never saw any prisoners maltreated. I

17 never saw it with my own eyes.

18 Q. Guards were never punished for their treatment of detainees,

19 right? You didn't hear anything of that.

20 A. They did not punish because I know that the guards' conduct was

21 very correct. They are all people who are professionals, who worked

22 before the war in the KP Dom, and who were highly-skilled professionals.

23 They treated Muslim detainees - and this is something that I know for

24 certain - they treated the Muslim detainees the same way that they treated

25 other prisoners before the war. I saw them through the window take them

Page 5891

1 to the meals, and it was the same thing as before the war. No excesses,

2 no beating or anything like that. That is something I saw through the

3 window, through the window of the guard post where I was from time to

4 time.

5 Q. Where you were very rarely in the first months, only one or two

6 times a month, and in the other months, only once a week, right?

7 A. Well, I'm talking about --

8 Q. Just yes or no, just yes or no. It's right. That's what you told

9 us.

10 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I did not hear it well.

11 Q. You told us that during the first months you were there only once

12 or twice a month on your guard post, and during the other months you were

13 there only once a week. So you can only speak for the few days that you

14 were there; you cannot tell us anything about any other day when you were

15 not there.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You mentioned that other guards told you about what happened in

18 the KP Dom. Did Mr. Risto Ivanovic tell you? Did you have contacts with

19 him?

20 A. Risto Ivanovic is my neighbour, my neighbour. We met during guard

21 shifts and also down over there where we lived. We did not talk about it

22 often, but sometimes he'd tell me certain things, but we did not talk

23 about it often.

24 Q. He mentioned to you that Muslim detainees were mistreated, didn't

25 he?

Page 5892

1 A. No, never.

2 Q. You mentioned yesterday that Mr. Krnojelac was on several

3 occasions away on business trips, right?

4 A. Yes. Mr. Krnojelac was absent on business on several occasions.

5 And then I did not say it in my statement, but may I say it now?

6 Mr. Krnojelac were absent for a whole month at that time when his son lost

7 both legs on the front, and that was sometime, I think, in June at the

8 military medical academy in Belgrade, and he was there for a whole month.

9 I did not say that; I forgot about it.

10 But he would mostly go away because of the procurement of food,

11 sale of products of the furniture factory, sale of produce from the farm,

12 and those, those products were sold around Serbia and Montenegro.

13 Q. You mentioned places where Mr. Krnojelac went. You mentioned

14 Podgorica, Niksic, Uzice. These are areas in Montenegro and it's day

15 trips. To go there is a day trip or two-day trip for the most; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And Mr. Krnojelac did not go there often, right, because it's

18 actually the job of clerks to do this, to do these business trips; right?

19 A. Well, they helped out one another; that is, both clerks went, that

20 is, those responsible for supplies, and Mr. Krnojelac travelled too.

21 Q. But you cannot give us the dates when he travelled, right, because

22 it was not --

23 A. I cannot, no.

24 Q. And you can, in particular, not say anything about the months May

25 to August 1992 because you were not in the KP Dom, right; you were at the

Page 5893

1 printing press?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So you did not actually observe that Mr. Krnojelac was away for an

4 entire month in June 1992, right; you did not observe that?

5 A. I did not observe it, but I heard it from others.

6 Q. Who told you? Mr. Krnojelac, or who?

7 A. Not Mr. Krnojelac. I think one of the officers on duty told me

8 that, one of the officers on duty in the KP Dom told me that, but I can't

9 remember which one.

10 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac is a good man, he has a good

11 reputation; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. He is actually your colleague as a teacher; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You respect him?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you came here to help him; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, no further questions.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Vasic?

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22 First I should like to ask the usher to help me, photograph 7292

23 to the witness. This is the photograph that my learned friend used during

24 her cross-examination.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Vasic:

Page 5894













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5895

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dolas, when asked by my learned friend, you

2 said what was this white house to the left of the big house which is in

3 the centre of the photograph.

4 A. Yes. That is the bakery. That is the town bakery, the only

5 bakery in Foca.

6 Q. And was there another bakery in the KP Dom apart from this one?

7 A. In the KP Dom there was a bakery, but I do not know when did it go

8 into operation. Because of the power cuts, it did not work, and

9 then -- but that bakery's furnaces are fed by firewood.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I don't need this photograph any

11 more. Thank you.

12 Q. Sir, you said that you were on guard, that you kept guard in the

13 office of the former legal service, that is, legal service before the

14 war. Before the war, was this office used by Savo Todovic?

15 A. Before the war, Savo Todovic did not use this office. It was

16 Milan Vujevic who used it, and he was the lawyer at that time. He, even

17 when the armed conflict began, he stayed on in the KP Dom for about two

18 months, and then he fled to Montenegro; he deserted.

19 Q. You mentioned that now and then when in the KP Dom you would go

20 into the coffee bar to have a coffee.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What floor was this coffee bar on?

23 A. This coffee bar. Well, there is a ground floor, there is the

24 first floor, and there is the second floor, where I was. So on the first

25 floor, in the middle of that building, and the coffee bar is still there.

Page 5896

1 Q. When my learned friend showed you the ground plan of the KP Dom,

2 you said that you were confused by the way it looked.

3 A. Yes, I was confused, because I do not think that this ground plan

4 is accurate. I had spent 23 years working in the KP Dom and I know every

5 nook and corner there. I couldn't find my way around it.

6 Q. And where, in fact, is the staircase which takes you to the upper

7 floor of the administrative building?

8 A. In real life, that staircase is in the centre of the

9 administrative building. First comes the ground floor; then the first

10 floor, with the offices; and in the middle, between the second and the

11 first floor, is the coffee bar, and you come out into the centre of the

12 administrative building. As you look from the Drina, to the left is the

13 warden's office and to the right the lawyer's office, and the latter is

14 divided into two offices. So you go through the main door and there is an

15 anteroom with a typist, and from that anteroom you overlook Drina; that

16 is, its windows overlook the Drina. And then from the typist's office you

17 enter the lawyer's office, and that window faces the prison yard, and that

18 is not indicated in that ground plan.

19 Q. Does that mean that from the staircase the passage goes both right

20 and left?

21 A. Quite so, yes. The passage also goes to the right and to the left

22 from the staircase, and what confused me was the staircase. Yes, there

23 are some stairs at the place where it was drawn, but that is -- these are

24 the stairs taking you into the cinema hall from the street, so that is

25 that -- a different staircase.

Page 5897

1 Q. In the ground plan -- are there on this ground plan drawn the

2 offices which are to the left of the staircase as you look from the

3 direction as you ascend the stairs?

4 A. Yes, yes, there are.

5 Q. And are these rooms on the right-hand side?

6 A. Well, now, when I realise that the stairs are in the middle and it

7 is not drawn that way, now I know that these offices are there. But in

8 the middle, that protuberance, that is where the coffee bar was, there

9 where you go into the prison yard.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher help me to show the

11 witness the Exhibit P6/3.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I think we have to see the whole of the document.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. Mr. Dolas, does this ground plan show the passage, the hallway

16 which takes you to the left from the staircase, opposite the passage which

17 leads to the warden's office?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell me where is it?

20 A. This is the right-hand side. It's not the left-hand side, from

21 the staircase.

22 Q. From the staircase, it is to the right of the staircase?

23 A. Oh, yes, yes, but this is upside down.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please rotate this

25 ground plan so that it is turned properly.

Page 5898

1 Q. Now, Mr. Dolas, tell me: Does this drawing show the part of the

2 passage which goes left from the staircase and where your office, the

3 office where you stood guard, was?

4 A. Well, it should be this, to my mind.

5 Q. And where is the staircase?

6 A. The staircase should be here; and here, this is where the coffee

7 bar was, where the coffee bar still is.

8 Q. The ground plan as it is drawn, does it fit the reality in the KP

9 Dom?

10 A. No, it doesn't. It was not drawn accurately.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, you would be just as well to have it

13 recorded on the transcript where the witness was pointing to. The plan is

14 upside down on the monitor. You may be able to describe where it was.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall

16 describe it in my description, as the plan is normally not as it is turned

17 now, in order to avoid any confusion in the transcript.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Why I had some problem is because the translation was

19 coming through about half a sentence after he was pointing. You heard him

20 in the original language, so you may be able to tell us just where on that

21 plan he was pointing at the time he actually said that he was pointing at

22 the position.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The witness has shown the sixth room

24 from the right to left in the ground plan of the administrative building,

25 the office next to which is yet another area which the witness said was

Page 5899

1 the coffee bar. And the witness affirms that in this sixth room of the

2 administrative building, on the second floor, from right to left, a

3 staircase should have been drawn.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. That does help us.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. It is 11.00

6 now, but I have only one question more, so I don't know if -- thank you.

7 JUDGE HUNT: You go ahead.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You said that Mr. Krnojelac was replaced in September 1993 and

10 that Mr. Todovic stayed on as deputy.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher to show

12 the witness Exhibit P3. It is a list of the staff.

13 Q. Mr. Dolas, will you have a look at this list. You can take it to

14 have a better look. Will you find Savo Todovic's name on this list.

15 A. He is under number 11.

16 Q. And which date is there? When was he assigned?

17 A. On the 1st of July, 1993. 1st of July, 1993.

18 Q. And is that the day when he was assigned to that duty? Do you

19 have any knowledge of that?

20 A. I thought that it was September all the time, but here it says the

21 1st of July, and this should be accurate because this is a document.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dolas.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no

24 further questions. Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You are now

Page 5900

1 free to leave.

2 We'll adjourn and we'll resume at 11.35.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you stand, please, and make the solemn

9 declaration in the document which the court usher is showing you.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

15 Mr. Vasic.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Would you please tell us your full name, please.

19 A. My name is Krsto Krnojelac.

20 Q. Sir, first of all, I will ask you to pause after my question

21 before starting your reply so that the interpreters will have a chance to

22 interpret the question.

23 A. Yes, I understand.

24 Q. Thank you. Tell us the date of your birth.

25 A. I was born in 1939 on the 19th of January.

Page 5901













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5902

1 Q. Where were you born?

2 A. I was born in the village of Belani.

3 Q. In what municipality is that village?

4 A. In the municipality of Foca.

5 Q. Are you married?

6 A. Yes, I am.

7 Q. Do you have any children?

8 A. Yes, I have two children.

9 Q. What are you by occupation?

10 A. By occupation I am a cook.

11 Q. And where did you complete your primary and secondary schooling?

12 A. I completed primary school in the village of Brdjani, and the rest

13 of my schooling in various parts of Foca where I worked.

14 Q. Did you go to a two-year post-secondary school?

15 A. Yes, I did, and that was in Valjevo in 1973.

16 Q. Would you tell us, sir, where you were employed and from what

17 date.

18 A. First I was employed at the Sutjeska national park.

19 Q. From what year?

20 A. The 6th of August, 1962, until 1964.

21 Q. And then?

22 A. Then I went to work in the, in the canteen at the Foca pupils

23 home, hall of residents.

24 Q. And after working at the Foca students hall of residence, did you

25 work anywhere else?

Page 5903

1 A. No, but then I worked in the KP Dom.

2 Q. And until when did you work at the KP Dom in Foca?

3 A. From the 1st of March, 1966, until 1988. After that, I retired.

4 Q. Did you live in Foca when the war broke out?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In what part of Foca did you live?

7 A. I lived in the part of Foca called Aladza.

8 Q. And in that part of Foca, is that where you were when the war

9 broke out?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And where were you when combat activities started and went on in

12 April 1992?

13 A. Well, when the combat started, we were in the basement.

14 Q. In the basement of your building?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is that a building with several floors?

17 A. Yes, five floors.

18 Q. You said you were in the basement. Who was in the basement during

19 the fighting?

20 A. Both Serbs and Muslims, all of us from the building and nearby

21 buildings. There was a shelter in the basement.

22 Q. How long did you stay in the basement of your building?

23 A. We were there for about four or five days.

24 Q. And where did you go after that?

25 A. After that, we went to Livade, to the military barracks, the

Page 5904

1 centre. There were some military barracks.

2 Q. Did you go there with your entire family?

3 A. Yes, with my whole family.

4 Q. When you arrived in Livade, did you get separated from your

5 family?

6 A. I arrived in Livade and they separated us into groups: children,

7 women, men.

8 Q. Did the women and children stay in Livade?

9 A. No. The women and children went to the nearby houses and they

10 were accommodated in various houses and basements according to how much

11 space people had.

12 Q. And in the town of Foca, was fighting still going on at that time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And where were you accommodated?

15 A. I started working as a cook in Livade at once, and I slept in a

16 barracks.

17 Q. How long did you work as a cook in Livade?

18 A. I think it was about 17 days.

19 Q. Were some army units stationed at Livade?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And were you mobilised as a cook by the army?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us where your kitchen was while you were in Livade?

24 A. My kitchen was in an old, abandoned garage by a stream.

25 Q. Did you set up this kitchen, and what did it look like?

Page 5905

1 A. Yes. I did it all with my bare hands. There was broken glass

2 there, various things lying around. So I made a brick wall. I made a

3 place where I could put a caldron and where I could cook for the soldiers.

4 Q. What fuel did you use when you were cooking in this kitchen you

5 built yourself?

6 A. There were two soldiers who cut wood for me, because there were

7 woods around, so we used firewood for cooking.

8 Q. And this place where you installed the kitchen, was it near the

9 barracks you mentioned in the Livade military depot?

10 A. It was 250 metres down the stream. It was some sort of ravine -

11 how shall I describe it? - and it was about 250 metres downhill.

12 Q. And what were the surroundings like where you installed the

13 kitchen?

14 A. There were tall trees - it was a forest - as well as undergrowth

15 and a stream flowing by.

16 Q. You said you spent about 17 days there. After these 17 days, were

17 you transferred to the kitchen in KP Dom?

18 A. Yes. A military courier came and said I should go to the kitchen

19 in KP Dom.

20 Q. When you arrived in KP Dom, to the kitchen there, what did the

21 kitchen look like in KP Dom?

22 A. When I arrived in the kitchen, the conditions were bad.

23 Everything was shattered, broken. The windows were shattered. The doors

24 had been broken down. There was no glass anywhere. It was chaos.

25 Q. And did you take part in clearing up the kitchen?

Page 5906

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us: In relation to the administration building of KP

3 Dom, where was the kitchen?

4 A. It was about 120 or 130 metres away from the administration part.

5 It was under the same roof, but it was that far away, in the direction of

6 town.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the help of the usher, I would

8 like to show the witness Exhibit P6/1.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating from the end

11 of the administration building to the right.

12 A. I don't see the kitchen here.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, it's called a canteen. That's obviously a

15 general term which I would have thought would include the kitchen. Do you

16 want the precise position of the kitchen?

17 A. The canteen was there, and then the kitchen was about 100 metres

18 in the same direction under the same roof. The kitchen -- the canteen was

19 there and the kitchen was there. I don't know how clear this is.

20 JUDGE HUNT: 100 metres I would have thought would take it down

21 the other end of the building somewhere. It may be true, but it seems

22 rather surprising. Anyway, you sort it out, Mr. Vasic.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. If my

24 learned friend would help me about the number of the exhibit where we have

25 the ground plan of the entire KP Dom compound.

Page 5907

1 MS. KUO: Exhibit P6, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, it's the very big document, but we don't have a

3 photostat of it, unfortunately.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Sir, can you orient yourself? If it's easier for you, first take

6 the document and put it in front of you and then return it to the ELMO

7 when you've had a look. Not this one, the other one.

8 A. I only want to know how it is that they can't find the kitchen

9 here. The cinema, and my kitchen was below the cinema on the ground

10 floor. I'm not really skilled at maps. If the word "kitchen" was written

11 in, then I could find it.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I hesitate to suggest this, but the drawing of which

13 Mr. Smith is so enamoured may perhaps assist. I forgot the number of it.

14 MS. KUO: This is P88, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Can you orient yourself?

18 A. When I look at it like this, where is the kitchen?

19 Q. You can see the walls of the buildings of KP Dom.

20 A. Well, the kitchen should be somewhere around here, I think.

21 Q. Would you please indicate it on the ELMO so that we can see what

22 you are pointing to.

23 A. I think it's here. I'm not really skilled at this.

24 Q. So you're confused.

25 A. Yes, I'm confused. I know it was in the direction of the hole,

Page 5908













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Page 5909

1 and then there's the canteen, and then there's the bakery. The kitchen

2 was between the bakery and the canteen, in the same building.

3 Q. Let's try like this: At what level, on what floor, was the

4 kitchen?

5 A. It was the first floor. Between the canteen -- first there's the

6 canteen and then there's the kitchen and then there's the bakery.

7 Q. And what is there above the kitchen?

8 A. Above the kitchen is the cinema and the school room.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I hope that we have

10 somehow cleared up the location in this manner.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'm glad you think so. I'm not sure that I do,

12 but I'll leave it to you, Mr. Vasic. Is it important, really?

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think it's that

14 important. I just wanted to locate the place where the witness was

15 working.

16 Thank you. We won't need these sketches any more, thank you.

17 Q. When you arrived in the kitchen, when did it begin operating?

18 A. It began operating on the same day I arrived in the compound and

19 when we started clearing it up.

20 Q. And how did you cook food?

21 A. We used firewood because there was no electricity. There was no

22 steam. It was all steam powered, so we used firewood for cooking.

23 Q. Tell us first, what did you use to cook in?

24 A. Well, we had steam caldrons, and then people removed it so that we

25 could use the caldrons with firewood.

Page 5910

1 Q. And where did you make a fire?

2 A. Well, we made a fire in front of the kitchen. We had boards and

3 we put bricks there, and then we had a 300-litre caldron which we put on

4 top, and there we made the fire.

5 Q. Can you tell us whether this was the only kitchen in KP Dom?

6 A. Yes, it was the only kitchen.

7 Q. Who did you cook for? Who used the kitchen?

8 A. Well, it was used to feed the soldiers, the employees, the

9 prisoners, and even passersby.

10 Q. You said passersby or a pass-through kitchen. What does this

11 mean?

12 A. Well, it means that when someone comes along, passing soldiers,

13 travellers, people who had some business there, they would come and eat.

14 Q. When you say travellers, soldiers, you mean passersby, people who

15 are passing through?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where was the food you cooked served?

18 A. It was served in the halls.

19 Q. How many halls were there?

20 A. There were two halls.

21 Q. And where were they in relation to the kitchen?

22 A. One was to the left, the other one was to the right.

23 Q. Was the kitchen in the middle, between the two dining areas?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the food that you prepared, where did you get it from?

Page 5911

1 A. I got food from the storage area.

2 Q. Did you ask to get food from the storage area every day?

3 A. Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't.

4 Q. Did you ask for food on the same day you would cook it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And those days when you did not ask for food, how did you prepare

7 food on that day?

8 A. That's why I took larger quantities, because the man working in

9 the storage room would sometimes travel to Montenegro or other places, so

10 then I needed to have more food in store.

11 Q. Where was this makeshift storage area that you had for keeping

12 food in store?

13 A. By the kitchen. Underneath.

14 Q. What did you keep the food in in this makeshift storage area?

15 A. It was usually potatoes, beans, rice, spaghetti, food that was not

16 perishable, that could be kept for a longer time, so we kept it there.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

18 speak up.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, could you just speak a little more loudly. The

20 interpreters are having difficulty hearing you.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. When you came to the kitchen, do you know whether there was any

23 food in the warehouses?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In which warehouses was this food kept?

Page 5912

1 A. In warehouses there is equipment for food and equipment for

2 clothing, so in one part of the warehouse is food.

3 Q. Where were these warehouses, the ones that you're referring to?

4 A. These warehouses were by the kitchen, towards the gate, about 80

5 metres away.

6 Q. Within the KP Dom compound?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you obtain food regularly, the food that you ordered, the food

9 that you asked for to be sent to you from the warehouses, from storage?

10 A. Yes, when there was food to be had. Sometimes we would get

11 everything we asked for, but sometimes ...

12 Q. In which period do you say that there were food shortages?

13 A. Well, 1992, 1993. Then it was hard to find, I mean food. There

14 was less and less of it.

15 Q. During these shortages, did you give the warehouse worker requests

16 for food that you needed? Do you know where he got food?

17 A. He got food in Montenegro, Niksic, Serbia, Uzice, Cacak, where

18 something could be found.

19 Q. How much food would you actually obtain in relation to what you

20 had requested?

21 A. Sometimes I would get it just right and then sometimes I couldn't

22 get what I had asked for, so I had to make do.

23 Q. What did you do in these situations when you did not get the

24 entire order that you had asked for?

25 A. We cooked what we had.

Page 5913

1 Q. What type of food did you usually cook?

2 A. Beans, potatoes, peas, green beans, rice, spaghetti,

3 cabbage, soya, and then combinations, combined vegetables, so that it

4 would not be the same thing all the time.

5 Q. How many meals were prepared in your kitchen during the course of

6 the day?

7 A. Three meals were prepared every day.

8 Q. This type of food that you mentioned to us, was it prepared for

9 all three meals?

10 A. No.

11 Q. For which meal did you prepare this food?

12 A. This was usually for lunch and dinner.

13 Q. What about breakfast? What did you prepare for breakfast?

14 A. For breakfast I prepared tea, sometimes coffee, coffee with milk,

15 then pate, cooked eggs, boiled eggs, when there were some. Things like

16 that.

17 Q. In view of the fact that you worked at the KP Dom before the war,

18 were there nutrition tables there at the time?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you apply them in the period after the war conflict broke out?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Bearing in mind the shortages you mentioned, did you manage to

23 meet all the norms prescribed in these nutrition tables while you worked

24 as a cook?

25 A. Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't. When there was food, we went

Page 5914

1 by these tables. Sometimes there was less.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you remember to pause before you answer

3 the question, because the interpreters do have to finish interpreting the

4 question, and you make it very difficult for them if you come in too

5 quickly.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. How big were the dishes into which you poured food?

8 A. Into which I poured food? I had half-a-kilogramme ladles.

9 Q. Was that for each and every portion?

10 A. Yes, each and every portion.

11 Q. Tell me, what was the situation like with bread in 1992 and

12 mid-1993?

13 A. Very difficult.

14 Q. Where did you get bread from?

15 A. Bread was baked at the bakery, where firewood was used for the

16 furnace, in smaller quantities.

17 Q. Did you send requests to the town bakery for bread?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you get as much bread as you had asked for?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What is the reason why there was no bread, do you know?

22 A. Our bakery had been destroyed and there was no fuel and there was

23 no electricity, so that is why lesser quantities, smaller quantities, were

24 made.

25 Q. What about the town bakery; did it have problems?

Page 5915













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Page 5916

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tell me, please, in the dining area by the kitchen, did Serb

3 prisoners come there as well as Muslims?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were they brought separately to the dining area?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who served food in the kitchen?

8 A. I and four Muslims.

9 Q. Who did you serve food to and who did they serve food to, or was

10 it all the same?

11 A. I was the boss.

12 Q. Was there any difference between the portions that were received

13 by the Muslim prisoners --

14 A. No.

15 Q. Please let me finish my question. So, was there any difference

16 between the portions that were served to the Muslim prisoners and those

17 that were served to the Serb prisoners?

18 Was there any difference between the portions that were served to

19 prisoners and to staff members?

20 A. No.

21 JUDGE HUNT: That answer may only be -- have been to your second

22 question. I did not hear the witness say anything in answer to your

23 first, although there was a pause. Better clear it up.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think that it says "no"

25 twice in the transcript, but I'll clear it up.

Page 5917

1 Q. Sir, was there any difference between the portions that were given

2 to Muslim detainees and Serb detainees?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Who poured food for these detainees?

5 A. The Muslims.

6 Q. The Muslims that you are referring to, were they given to you at

7 your request?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were they brought to you, to the kitchen?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Were they brought in by the guards?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Tell me, please, while you cooked and while food was being served,

14 were you in the kitchen all the time?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you personally cook this food?

17 A. Yes, with the assistance of these men.

18 Q. During your work, did you ever see any incident take place in the

19 kitchen?

20 A. No, never.

21 Q. Until when did you work as a cook in this kitchen?

22 A. I don't understand your question.

23 Q. You said that you started to work in the kitchen in 1992.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us how long, until when did you work in that kitchen?

Page 5918

1 A. I worked there until 1995, until the 24th of February.

2 Q. Do you know who performed the duties of the director of the

3 economic unit in the period from 1992 until mid-1993?

4 A. I think it was Milorad Krnojelac. That's what I heard. I mean, I

5 didn't know the man.

6 Q. Who did you hear this from?

7 A. The other workers and clerks.

8 Q. Did you hear whether Milorad Krnojelac went to procure food for

9 the warehouses?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who did you hear this from?

12 A. The warehouse worker, the workers who worked.

13 Q. You said that you did not know Milorad Krnojelac. When did you

14 first see him?

15 A. I had heard of the man. I had never seen him.

16 Q. Did you hear what other people thought of him?

17 A. Yes, that he was a good man, a teacher. I personally did not know

18 him.

19 Q. Thank you, sir.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

21 further questions.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Ms. Kuo.

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

24 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Mr. Krnojelac, you lived in Aladza before

25 the war; is that right?

Page 5919

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when the war started, the reason you left Aladza was because

3 of the fighting, right?

4 A. Because of the fighting.

5 Q. Aladza was being attacked, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you took your family to Livade, it wasn't -- you weren't --

8 you went there voluntarily, it wasn't because somebody had asked you to

9 become a cook there for the military, right?

10 A. I was asked by the military. They knew I was a cook. They asked

11 me to be a cook and I reported to be a cook.

12 Q. They asked you to be a cook after you had already fled to Livade

13 with your family; isn't that right?

14 A. I did not run away. All families, Muslim and Serb families, all

15 of us together moved out of Aladza.

16 Q. Sir, that wasn't my question. My question was: You weren't

17 specifically asked by the military to go to Livade to become the cook. It

18 was because you were already at Livade that the military asked you,

19 because of your background, to cook; right?

20 A. I came to Livade with my family, and many other families.

21 Q. Sir, then you remained at Livade for 17 days; right?

22 A. Seventeen days, yes.

23 Q. What was the date when you were asked to go to the KP Dom?

24 A. I can't remember the date, but I did go to the KP Dom.

25 Q. Let's do it this way: When did you leave Aladza with your family?

Page 5920

1 A. I think it was around the 12th, the 10th or 12th.

2 Q. So when you were asked to go to KP Dom, it was already

3 approximately the 29th of April; right?

4 A. Well, somewhere around there.

5 Q. At this time, in April 1992, you were 53 years old; right?

6 A. I don't know. I'm not sure. But if I was, I was.

7 Q. What year were you born?

8 A. 1939.

9 Q. On April 18th of 1992, there was a general call for people

10 of -- for men of military age, that is, under 55 years old, to report to

11 the Foca High School; right?

12 A. I don't know about that. I don't know.

13 Q. But you know that Serb men under 55 were called to receive wartime

14 assignments in Foca; right?

15 A. I don't know about that either.

16 Q. You never reported for a wartime assignment, did you?

17 A. I belonged to the work obligation people. I was never attached to

18 the army, you see.

19 Q. When you were at Livade, you were cooking for the army at the

20 request of the army, weren't you?

21 A. I was assigned on the orders of the military. I am a cook and a

22 caterer, and that's the kind of person they needed.

23 Q. While you were at Livade and you were ordered by the military to

24 cook, it was for military personnel, right, for the army that was

25 stationed there?

Page 5921

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you were summoned to the KP Dom, it was because a courier, as

3 you said, came to fetch you; right?

4 A. A kitchen was supposed to be established at the KP Dom, and they

5 transferred me from Livade to the KP Dom.

6 Q. And the "they" that transferred you was the military; right?

7 A. Military, yes.

8 Q. Were you ever told that your assignment to KP Dom was a military

9 or a wartime work obligation?

10 A. Work obligation, yes, but the rest, I am not very knowledgeable

11 about such purposes.

12 Q. You received this work obligation from the military; right? It

13 was not a civilian appointment. I know you were a civilian, you said, but

14 the people who told you that you had to work at the KP Dom as a cook were

15 military; right?

16 A. Military persons, soldiers came, but I cooked for everyone. I

17 don't know who I cooked for. And for the convicts and for the prisoners

18 and for civilians; everybody.

19 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, let me ask you this way: If you had refused to go

20 to the KP Dom to cook, what would have happened to you?

21 A. I don't know what would have happened. I think that I would be

22 detained in prison. I think that's what would happen.

23 Q. You would be violating a military order; right?

24 A. Most probably.

25 Q. There were men about your age who were going to the front line

Page 5922













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5923

1 also; right? You were not too old at that time to go to the front line?

2 A. I did not go to the front line because I am a cook and they needed

3 me for that job.

4 Q. I understand that was your situation. I'm asking in general. Men

5 up until 55 were still eligible to be sent to the front line, right, had

6 you not been a cook?

7 A. They could call them up, but they did not call up me. I stayed in

8 the kitchen.

9 Q. You were asked to locate the kitchen, and you had some trouble

10 with diagrams. Perhaps I can show you a photograph and it might be easier

11 for you. This is Exhibit P18, photograph 7511. It's the bottom

12 photograph. It may help you to look at the photograph first, because the

13 ELMO may not be so clear. That's a photograph taken from the courtyard of

14 the KP Dom, looking toward the kitchen. Do you see an individual sitting

15 at the top of some stairs, wearing white? It should be to the right-hand

16 side of the photo.

17 A. Yes, I see that. I do.

18 Q. Is that the entrance to the kitchen at the KP Dom?

19 A. I suppose so.

20 Q. Perhaps we can put that on the ELMO just very briefly and you can

21 point it out. The glare is rather difficult. The usher has his finger on

22 where there's a person sitting dressed in white, and that's where you

23 indicated before you supposed was --

24 A. This is me.

25 Q. Oh, well. So --

Page 5924

1 A. What do I know?

2 Q. You're sitting, in fact, at the kitchen door, perhaps getting some

3 air, right?

4 A. Could be.

5 Q. Most likely. Where else could it be? You worked in the kitchen,

6 and that's where you were, right?

7 A. I say yes, very likely, but perhaps it's not me. How do I know

8 who took this picture and when? Mine was to work.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Can you translate that now onto the plan, Ms. Kuo?

10 MS. KUO: Your Honour, based on what the witness said before, that

11 this, the kitchen -- that the canteen, then the kitchen, then the bakery

12 were below the cinema, if you look on Exhibit P6, there's a place called

13 the kino sala, that's the cinema, so it would be on the ground floor of

14 that particular building.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

16 MS. KUO: Thank you.

17 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you described that there was a cinema and a school

18 room above the canteen and kitchen and bakery. Was the cinema and school

19 room being used during the war?

20 A. No, it had all been demolished. All the window panes were gone.

21 Nothing -- everything was out of work at the time. I don't know if it's

22 back in operation today, even.

23 Q. I'd like just to focus on the time in 1992 and 1993. Was that

24 room above the kitchen ever fixed up?

25 A. I have no idea. I don't think so. I think it hasn't been fixed

Page 5925

1 up yet.

2 Q. You mentioned the storage area, and that was underneath the

3 kitchen, but that wasn't the only storage area in the KP Dom, right?

4 There was another storage area under the prisoners' quarters.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the bakery, you said, was operating during the wartime or was

7 not, inside the KP Dom?

8 A. Yes, under very difficult conditions.

9 Q. Did it operate during the daytime or in the nighttime?

10 A. Daytime.

11 Q. During the daytime, you and other workers were baking bread for

12 the KP Dom, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Isn't it true that there was also a power generator in that bakery

15 using heavy oil?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You're sure about that. There was no heavy oil to power --

18 A. I'm sure. Oh, come. What generator?

19 Q. Was that KP Dom bakery functional in the nighttime?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Absolutely not?

22 A. Absolutely sure. There was no electricity. One couldn't do it.

23 One had to use coal and firewood, that is, to make fire, and then use the

24 coal to reach the temperatures in order to heat the furnace, and you could

25 do it only during the daytime because at night there was no electricity.

Page 5926

1 You couldn't see.

2 Q. You mentioned that the city bakery was functioning at this time.

3 Are you aware that they were baking bread every day in the city bakery?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Did the bake -- did the bread that you made inside the KP Dom, was

6 that sufficient for the needs of the KP Dom, or did you have to get bread

7 from the city bakery?

8 A. We requested it from the town bakery, and we also used ours when

9 that was possible and as much as it was possible.

10 Q. Did people from the city bakery ever use the bakery inside the KP

11 Dom in the evenings, at nighttime?

12 A. Not at nighttime. Yes, by daytime.

13 Q. Did the city bakery people come to use the KP Dom bakery during

14 the daytime? Is that what you're saying?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Under what circumstances did they come and use the KP Dom bakery?

17 Why did they not use their own bakery?

18 A. Well, there was no gas, and they used the heavy oil in that

19 bakery, since we used firewood. They would take carts to bring in flour,

20 and that is where they made the bread.

21 Q. Under whose authority were they allowed to come use the KP Dom

22 bakery?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Did that interfere with your work? You said you were the boss of

25 the bakery and the kitchen.

Page 5927

1 A. I was the head of the kitchen but not of the bakery because I'm

2 not a baker.

3 Q. Who was the head of the bakery?

4 A. Bakers, but amateurs. They made bread. Who is was their boss, I

5 have no idea.

6 Q. But if you wanted bread for the kitchen, did you have to ask

7 somebody for that, or could you just take it?

8 A. I took the bread when I needed -- as I needed it.

9 Q. You mentioned that wood was being used as a fuel source. There

10 was wood that was gathered from the banks of the Drina right in front of

11 the KP Dom, right?

12 A. We were getting some firewood. We collected it. We tried to make

13 do, but that was the easiest fuel that we could find.

14 Q. Some of the firewood that you used was gathered by Muslim

15 detainees on the banks of the Drina in front of the KP Dom, right?

16 A. I don't know, I really don't.

17 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you said that detainees and staff ate the exact

18 same food and the exact same portions. Was this true during the entire

19 time that you were working at KP Dom during the war, that is, from 1992

20 through 1995?

21 A. It was like that whilst I was there. Afterwards, I don't know

22 because I was retired and I left, and I really don't know then.

23 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you about the time you weren't there. You've

24 told us that you were the cook at KP Dom from April, late April 1992 until

25 the end of 1995. It's just that time I'm asking you about. During that

Page 5928

1 entire time, are you saying that the staff and the detainees and prisoners

2 all ate the exact same food?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. There was no change whatsoever?

5 A. Whilst I was there, no.

6 Q. And there was no difference at all between the food that the

7 Muslim detainees and the Serb detainees received; is that what you're

8 saying?

9 A. That is what I'm saying, responsibly [as interpreted] that it was

10 the same.

11 Q. Among the Serb prisoners and detainees, there were those who were

12 detained by the military authorities for military violations, right?

13 A. I have no knowledge about that.

14 Q. And there were also Serb prisoners who were serving sentences,

15 right, under civilian law?

16 A. I don't know about that either. I really don't.

17 Q. In your statement to Defence counsel, you stated that there were

18 20 detainees of Serb nationality in KP Dom.

19 A. If it was 20, then it was 20. I never counted them, believe me.

20 Q. Of those 20 detainees of Serb nationality, were they civilian or

21 military?

22 A. To be quite frank with you, I don't know. There were prisoners

23 and civilian and military. I can't tell you anything about it.

24 Q. So what you're telling us is you made absolutely no distinction

25 between the military detainees and the civilian detainees, right?

Page 5929













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Page 5930

1 A. Mine was to work, and I didn't meddle in anything else.

2 Q. But you were not given separate instructions for military

3 detainees and civilian detainees among the Serbs, right?

4 A. Nobody ever told me anything, nor did I get that. I was doing my

5 job.

6 Q. You kept track, as part of your job, of the food supplies that

7 were necessary to run the kitchen; right?

8 A. Well, there were hardly any stocks, because it was difficult, but

9 I tried to keep up and I tried to give people food to eat as much as I

10 could.

11 Q. Each day as you prepared the meals for the detainees and the

12 staff, you never made a distinction between the civilians or the military

13 detainees or staff, right; they were all completely the same food supply?

14 A. The food was prepared in one caldron, 250- to 300-litre capacity,

15 and food was prepared in it for everybody.

16 Q. But you weren't --

17 A. I shall go on. And then it was poured out to other vessels and

18 then taken out from the kitchen to the dining areas, and there it was

19 poured into private vessels.

20 Q. Sir, we understand that what you served -- about the process of

21 serving the food. My question was about the food supply, the food that

22 was coming into the kitchen. There was no distinction in the food supply

23 between civilian and military; right? You got all the food for everybody

24 from the same place; right?

25 A. Right. That is correct.

Page 5931

1 Q. Whom did you report to, or if you did not receive the food you

2 needed, whom did you ask?

3 A. Well, I had my superior, Krnojelac, Milorad. I'd turn to him.

4 But it never happened that there wasn't -- that one couldn't make

5 something.

6 Q. Do you mean that there was never a shortage of food?

7 A. No, I'm not going to say that, but it never happened that no food

8 was prepared. It doesn't mean that it wasn't in short supply, but it

9 never happened that there would be nothing.

10 Q. So you had a constant supply of food that was provided to you by

11 Milorad Krnojelac, sometimes more, sometimes less; right?

12 A. Correct. Times when he would get something, then we add something

13 extra; when not, then we try to make do with what we have.

14 Q. When you got something extra, you're saying you served it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You knew that Milorad Krnojelac was the warden of KP Dom beginning

17 in 1992; right?

18 A. No, believe me.

19 Q. Yet he was your superior; right?

20 A. Very likely, but the fact is that I saw him very few times.

21 Q. He was the person that you described a few minutes ago as being

22 your superior; right?

23 A. Well, it is more likely than not that he was. I had to turn to

24 somebody, so it is as likely as not that it was he.

25 Q. And you turned to him when you needed food supplies for the entire

Page 5932

1 KP Dom; right?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. He never sent you to someone else to provide that food; right? He

4 took care of it; isn't that right?

5 A. There were people in charge of the storeroom and there were people

6 responsible for procurement, who went around town. It didn't have always

7 to be Krnojelac who would be informed that there was no food.

8 Q. Milorad Krnojelac ate in the canteen also; right?

9 A. Every time he came, he did eat there.

10 Q. When you say "every time he came," what do you mean? Every time

11 he came where?

12 A. Well, at times he wouldn't come. At times he would be away, so he

13 wouldn't come to the kitchen. But I know that when he came, he ate there,

14 unfortunately, because he had nowhere else to go.

15 Q. Are you saying that every time he came to the KP Dom to work, he

16 came to the canteen to eat?

17 A. When he requested to eat, then he ate. Whether he came every day,

18 well, depended on whether he was hungry or not.

19 Q. When was the first time you ever met Milorad Krnojelac?

20 A. Well, the first time I heard about that man, but I never saw him,

21 and it was around when I came. Could be 1993, 1994. That is when I

22 perhaps saw him. But as a matter of fact, I've never seen the man. I've

23 heard about him, but I did not see him. I did not know him.

24 Q. I think we need an explanation for that answer. You said that

25 around the time that you came. I assume you mean the time you came to KP

Page 5933

1 Dom, that's when you saw Milorad Krnojelac.

2 A. Well, possibly then. Before that, I couldn't have seen him then,

3 earlier, because I didn't know the man.

4 Q. Then you said "1993, 1994." But you came to KP Dom in 1992. You

5 saw him for the first time in 1992; right?

6 A. Possibly. I don't remember. I'm really very poor with

7 remembering -- with memorising figures and years.

8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you said when you first came to the KP Dom, the

9 kitchen was a mess. The windows were broken, things had to be fixed;

10 right?

11 A. I said it, and that is how it was. It was all in shambles.

12 Q. You couldn't just clean that up yourself without asking somebody

13 else for permission or for help; right?

14 A. There were people who did it. Of course I couldn't do it alone.

15 There were other people. We worked there together, fixed it up, set up

16 the kitchen, and went on working.

17 Q. One of the people you needed to deal with in order to fix up the

18 kitchen to bring it into working order was Milorad Krnojelac; right?

19 A. Possibly.

20 Q. Sir, you say "possibly" very, very often in answer to the

21 questions. Everything is possible, and what we need from you is an

22 answer, yes or no. If you don't know, say you don't know; and if you

23 don't remember, please say you don't remember. But the answer to that is

24 yes, right; you did work with Milorad Krnojelac to fix up the kitchen?

25 A. I didn't have to, because there were other people. There were

Page 5934

1 guards who supervised it and men with whom I did it. It was just cleaning

2 up the rubble, removing the glass. There weren't any works. We simply

3 boarded it all up and started to cook in front of the kitchen.

4 Q. Are you saying that during those first few days at the KP Dom when

5 you needed to fix that kitchen, that Milorad Krnojelac never had anything

6 to do with it, that he never came by to inspect it, that he never came by

7 to help fix it up?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. You were there, sir, weren't you?

10 A. I don't know. At that time, I didn't know the man. Perhaps he

11 did come, but I did not know him.

12 Q. When did you first know him?

13 A. Well, to be quite honest with you, I don't really know how to say

14 when I saw him. I saw him, but -- we met, I used to see him, but it

15 wasn't that I really knew him. He was there and he had his affairs to

16 attend to.

17 Q. When you first arrived at the KP Dom, the warden was already

18 Milorad Krnojelac. Did nobody ask you if you were related to him, since

19 you have the same family name? Did nobody ever ask that to you and say,

20 "Are you related to the warden?"

21 A. No. I had never seen that man. I only heard about him. I only

22 heard and never knew him.

23 Q. You lived in Foca for how many years?

24 A. I've been living in Foca since 1965.

25 Q. Foca is a small town, isn't it?

Page 5935

1 A. Well, a small town of about 10.000.

2 Q. Milorad Krnojelac was a teacher in the elementary school, right?

3 A. I heard that he was a teacher, a mathematician, but I did not know

4 him, and he did not teach my children.

5 Q. And you're saying that during that whole time, you never heard

6 anything about him?

7 A. I heard that he was a good teacher, a good man, from others. I'm

8 telling you, I did not know him.

9 MS. KUO: Your Honours, it's 1.00.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We'll adjourn until 2.30.

11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.















Page 5936













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5937

1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

3 MS. KUO:

4 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, before lunch you told us that the staff of the KP

5 Dom ate in the canteen along with the detainees for the entire time from

6 1992 until 1995. Isn't it true that about seven or eight months after you

7 started working at the KP Dom, the staff began to eat outside the KP Dom,

8 at the restaurant across the street?

9 A. While I was there, we cooked in the compound, and towards the end,

10 just before I left, food started to be carried across to the restaurant

11 from the compound and it was distributed there, but it was cooked in the

12 compound.

13 Q. So earlier when you insisted that the staff always ate inside the

14 KP Dom, that wasn't true, right? At some point they started to eat

15 outside.

16 A. It's true that they ate in the compound, and just before I left

17 they started carrying the food to the restaurant.

18 Q. When the food was carried to the restaurant, it was in a different

19 pot from what was being served inside the KP Dom to the detainees, right?

20 A. It was carried in smaller pots, but it was the same food that was

21 cooked in the compound.

22 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, the Drina Economic Unit within the KP Dom had a

23 catering unit. Were you in charge of that as well?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Where was that located?

Page 5938

1 A. It was located, if you heard of the Foca Brioni, a few kilometres

2 out of town.

3 Q. That's where the farm is, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. During the war, was that catering unit functioning?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So all the food that was being prepared at the KP Dom was being

8 prepared in the kitchen that you supervised, right?

9 A. In the kitchen.

10 Q. But in other words, there was -- if somebody were procuring food

11 supplies for the KP Dom, some of that food wouldn't end up being used by a

12 catering unit at Brioni, right, because it wasn't functioning?

13 A. That's correct. It wasn't taken there, and Brioni wasn't

14 functional.

15 Q. You testified that you did not request any workers to help you in

16 the kitchen, but you did need to have workers help you, right? You

17 couldn't run the kitchen all by yourself.

18 A. I didn't work by myself. I said I had four workers of Muslim

19 nationality who worked in the kitchen with me.

20 Q. Those Muslims who worked with you were detainees at the KP Dom,

21 right?

22 A. They came as prisoners, detainees, I don't know, to the collection

23 centre. They worked with me in the kitchen, and what the official term

24 was for what they were, I don't know.

25 Q. But they weren't being paid for their work, right?

Page 5939

1 A. No, they weren't paid. I wasn't paid, either.

2 Q. You could leave the KP Dom at the end of the day and go home to

3 your family, right?

4 A. I did. I worked until evening, and when supper was distributed,

5 after that, I went home.

6 Q. The Muslims whom you supervised in the kitchen could not go home,

7 could not leave the KP Dom, could they?

8 A. No, they didn't leave the KP Dom. They went to their rooms.

9 Q. These workers helped to cook food for the other Muslim detainees,

10 right? You supervised them in their cooking?

11 A. We worked together, I and those four Muslims, for the Muslims, for

12 the Serbs, for the inmates who were already there when the war broke out,

13 for all of them. These four Muslims and I worked for them all.

14 Q. The Muslims whom you supervised served food; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And they also chopped firewood in the courtyard to light the

17 stoves; right?

18 A. Not those from the kitchen. Others brought us firewood and we lit

19 the fires.

20 Q. So other detainees did chop firewood in the courtyard. That's

21 where you got the wood for the kitchen; right?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. The Muslim detainees who worked with you in the kitchen received a

24 bit more food than the other Muslim detainees; right?

25 A. Well, you know what it's like. I don't think it's normal to work

Page 5940

1 in a kitchen and stay hungry.

2 Q. In addition to these Muslim detainees, there was a man named

3 Radomir Matovic, nicknamed Raso, who worked with you; right?

4 A. Would you repeat the name, please?

5 Q. Radomir Matovic, nicknamed Raso.

6 A. No.

7 Q. Was there another Serb who worked with you in the kitchen?

8 A. I said that I worked with four Muslims while I was there. When I

9 was released as a retiree and I was no longer needed, it is possible that

10 other men came who were cooks, but I wasn't there any more.

11 Q. So just so that we're clear, the only people that you supervised

12 were these four Muslims; is that right?

13 A. There was someone called Polani, Reko, Rasim - I don't know his

14 name. Besimir, I think - and Hodzic, a young man known as Borota.

15 Q. But those are the names of the Muslims; right?

16 A. That's right, yes.

17 Q. And you were the only cook at the KP Dom, right, from 1992 through

18 1995?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So if somebody referred to the cook at KP Dom, that was you;

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In your statement to the Defence investigator, you stated that

24 food was served to the detainees several times during the meals, so that

25 meant that if -- what you meant by that was that if a detainee wanted

Page 5941

1 second helpings, he could get it; right?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Isn't it true that only the Serb detainees were able to get second

4 helpings but the Muslims were not?

5 A. Both the ones and the others could do it.

6 Q. Isn't it true that Serb detainees could take bread back to their

7 rooms with them?

8 A. I don't know that.

9 Q. Isn't it true that the Muslims only received a single slice of

10 bread with each meal and could not ask for any more than that?

11 A. They got bread, sometimes two pieces, sometimes one piece. When

12 there was enough, they got it. When they didn't have enough bread, no one

13 had enough bread. But it never happened that they were not given bread

14 for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. This never happened at mealtimes.

15 Q. Isn't it true that when the Muslim detainees came for meals, there

16 were guards with them who would make sure that they got no more than a

17 single slice of bread with their meal?

18 A. That's not correct. If there had been bread, the guards would

19 have given it to them, just as I would have, to anyone, regardless of

20 whether he was a Serb or a Muslim. When there was bread available, it was

21 distributed.

22 Q. You mentioned before one of the Muslim workers named Rasim.

23 That's Rasim Taranin; right?

24 A. It's possible, yes. Yes, you're right. Yes, it is Rasim

25 Taranin. I couldn't recall the last name at first.

Page 5942

1 Q. Isn't it true that he was never allowed to give a Muslim detainee

2 more than a single slice of bread, otherwise he would be locked up in an

3 isolation cell?

4 A. I'm not aware of that.

5 Q. Did you ever see Rasim Taranin give a Muslim detainee more than

6 one slice of bread?

7 A. I didn't see it, but I myself did that, many times. I'm not sure

8 about him.

9 Q. You mentioned another Muslim worker named Polani. Isn't it true

10 that he was dismissed from the kitchen precisely because he gave another

11 slice of bread to a detainee, and that in addition he was locked up in the

12 isolation cell?

13 A. That's not correct.

14 Q. This Muslim detainee Polani was dismissed from the kitchen at some

15 point, wasn't he?

16 A. As far as I know, he wasn't.

17 Q. He worked there the entire time?

18 A. He worked with me in the kitchen the whole time.

19 Q. From when until when?

20 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly. I don't know the date.

21 But from the first days he was there in the kitchen with the other three.

22 Q. When did he stop working in the kitchen?

23 A. I don't know. Believe me.

24 Q. The Muslims who worked in the kitchen were brought to the kitchen

25 by guards, right?

Page 5943













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5944

1 A. They were in the room with the other Muslims. They knew when they

2 had to report for work. I never saw a single guard escorting them. They

3 came on their own, and when they had finished their work, they went back

4 to their rooms on their own.

5 Q. Isn't it true that when the Muslim workers were leaving the

6 kitchen they were searched so they wouldn't be able to take extra food

7 back to their rooms?

8 A. I'm not aware of that. Not in the kitchen.

9 Q. There were times when there was extra bread left over or stale

10 bread that was thrown out, right?

11 A. It was never thrown out. It was kept and given to people to eat.

12 No one would allow bread to be thrown away.

13 Q. People were given stale bread to eat; is that what you're saying?

14 A. No, it couldn't get stale because we didn't have any stores.

15 Bread was baked fresh every day and distributed.

16 Q. So there was never any stale bread; it was always fresh.

17 A. Let me tell you, if you bake bread today, you distribute it

18 tomorrow. It wasn't a store. But that's how it's done everywhere. You

19 don't distribute hot bread.

20 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you saw the Muslim detainees as they filed in for

21 meals three times a day, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you noticed that they were losing a lot of weight, isn't that

24 right? They had become very thin.

25 A. Like everybody else; I also lost weight. I had my house. They

Page 5945

1 didn't lose as much as they say they lost, but they did lose some weight.

2 I can't say they didn't.

3 Q. You said, "They didn't lose as much as they say they lost." How

4 much do you say they say they lost? Who told you they lost weight? Who

5 are you referring to when you say, "They say they lost weight"?

6 A. I know from these Muslims who worked in the kitchen that they

7 looked very fit. You would never be able to tell they were prisoners.

8 But I didn't know the other people. I don't know what they looked like

9 when they arrived, what they looked like when they left. But nobody died

10 of starvation. It could all be endured.

11 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, please answer my question. I'm simply asking you

12 about what yourself said. You said, "They didn't lose as much weight as

13 they say they lost." Who said they lost weight? Who are you talking

14 about?

15 JUDGE HUNT: Wait a moment, sir. Wait a moment, please.

16 What you are asking him is who told him that the Muslims said they

17 had lost weight. That's what you're after, isn't it? Or do you want to

18 know which Muslims said they'd lost weight?

19 MS. KUO: I just want to know who "they" is. He says "as much as

20 they said they lost," and so I'm asking the question as to --

21 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. And you want to know how he knows that they

22 said that they had lost weight.

23 MS. KUO: Yes.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, what you're asking, is it not, is who told him

25 that there had been evidence given that they had lost weight.

Page 5946

1 MS. KUO: Yes.

2 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I think might be a clearer question.

3 MS. KUO:

4 Q. Who told you that the Muslim detainees had lost weight?

5 A. To me? No one.

6 Q. So you can't make that comparison that you just made, can you,

7 "They didn't lose as much weight as they say they did"?

8 A. I can't say they didn't lose weight, but I don't know how much

9 they lost. I don't know how much they had in the first place. They

10 probably did lose some weight. I don't know. I didn't weigh them. I

11 have no idea.

12 Q. How much, sir, did you -- how much weight did you lose?

13 A. I lost two or three kilos, and I didn't mind that at all. I wish

14 I could lose some weight now, two or three kilograms.

15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you, as part of your food supplies in the kitchen,

16 received food produced at the farm being run through the Drina Economic

17 Unit at the KP Dom, right?

18 A. Well, to tell you rightly, I don't know who I got it from. I'm

19 not a bookkeeper. I don't know how it arrived. They grew potatoes and

20 cabbages there, but where the food I cooked came from, I really don't

21 know.

22 Q. But among the food that you cooked were potatoes and cabbages,

23 right?

24 A. Yes, of course. Yes, cabbage and potatoes and rice and spaghetti

25 and macaroni and soya and beans.

Page 5947

1 Q. You also cooked eggs, right?

2 A. Yes, cooked eggs. Boiled eggs, we usually gave them boiled eggs.

3 Q. The farm produced eggs, right? They had chickens and they

4 produced quite a few eggs.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The farm also produced milk which you could use in the kitchen,

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You worked for KP Dom in the kitchen before you retired, and that

10 was for many years, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So you're familiar with the farm and how it functioned, right?

13 A. Well, to tell you rightly, I'm not familiar with it. I didn't

14 really look into it because I was in charge of the kitchen.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. I wanted to get things from the warehouse. I didn't care about

17 the farm.

18 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, we've heard that before, so we don't need to have

19 it repeated.

20 You are aware that the farm was producing food, even before the

21 war, to be sold outside the KP Dom, right? You weren't using up all the

22 eggs that the chickens there produced; some of it was being sold.

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Even during the war, that farm was producing eggs that were being

25 sold outside the KP Dom, right?

Page 5948

1 A. They were producing eggs, but they were exchanging them for other

2 articles. I don't really know exactly. There are people who were in

3 charge of that, I don't know, but they did produce.

4 Q. But there was a surplus of eggs that they were able to exchange

5 outside, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the same is true of the milk that was produced by the cows on

8 that farm, right?

9 A. Milk was used by citizens who came to KP Dom, and they bought milk

10 in the shops in the town.

11 Q. The milk that was produced at the KP Dom -- at the Drina farm?

12 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, Mr. Vasic.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I don't

14 know if everything is all right with the transcript. 72, row 12, I think

15 the witness said that the milk was used by citizens and that it was used

16 by being brought to KP Dom. I think it says here it was used by citizens

17 who came to KP Dom.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, this transcript is checked at night against the

19 recording, so if there's an error in the typing, it will be picked up

20 then. If there was an error in the translation, then that would produce a

21 problem. I don't recall what I heard at that time.

22 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I can ask the witness again.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. It might be the safest thing. Thank you,

24 Ms. Kuo.

25 MS. KUO:

Page 5949

1 Q. You were describing where the milk produced on the KP Dom farm

2 went. Can you tell us or repeat your answer?

3 A. One quantity I know went to the compound. As for the rest, I

4 really don't know.

5 Q. When you made a reference earlier to citizens of Foca, what did

6 you mean? What access did they have to the milk that was produced by the

7 KP Dom farm?

8 A. If there was enough, it was available, for those who managed to

9 get it, who were the first to ask for it.

10 Q. There was milk being sold to companies outside the KP Dom, right,

11 like Maglic or Perucica?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. On the farm also there were sheep; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And at some point during -- around the Christmas of 1992, two

16 lambs were roasted in the KP Dom bakery; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that food was then taken outside the KP Dom, right, the lamb

19 meat?

20 A. Believe me, I don't know who it was roasted for and who it was

21 taken to.

22 Q. But what's clear is that none of the detainees ever saw that meat,

23 did they?

24 A. I didn't either.

25 Q. In your statement to Defence investigators, you stated that

Page 5950













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 5951

1 Milorad Krnojelac used to go together with the warehouse men, Divljan and

2 Vujicic, to search for food in the town companies.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Isn't it true that they were actually selling food to the town

5 companies, the food that was produced on the farm?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. They weren't actually searching for food. They didn't have to

8 search for food in town companies, did they?

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not understand the answer.

10 MS. KUO:

11 Q. Could you repeat your answer, please, for the interpreters.

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise. The

14 witness at first said they had to search, and then, when my learned friend

15 asked him to repeat his answer, he just said "yes." Perhaps it would be a

16 good thing if my learned friend could clarify this with the witness, sort

17 out what he actually meant, because the first part of the sentence was not

18 interpreted.

19 MS. KUO: I'm happy to do so, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: All right.

21 MS. KUO:

22 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, Milorad Krnojelac and these warehouse men didn't

23 have to search for food in the town companies, did they?

24 A. Yes, they had to.

25 Q. Did you ever receive any orders to improve the quality or the

Page 5952

1 quantity of the food that you were cooking?

2 A. I did not, because there were enough vegetables, so it wasn't

3 necessary to increase this.

4 Q. You never received any complaints about the food?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You never received any orders from Milorad Krnojelac to put more

7 salt into the food?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Everybody was very happy with the food?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I just want to go back briefly to what I asked you before about

12 searching for food. How did you know that Milorad Krnojelac was searching

13 for food?

14 A. I know that when certain products were missing, that somebody had

15 to find them. I heard that Divljan Lazo, Vujicic Milos, Milorad Krnojelac

16 went to search for them.

17 Q. You've testified that there was a hot water caldron that was set

18 out for the benefit of the detainees. This was set out in the winter of

19 1992 to 1993, right, when it got cold?

20 A. There was always 200 litres of hot water for baths to be taken by

21 the Muslims.

22 Q. Only by the Muslims?

23 A. I mean for baths, generally. For Muslims and Serbs, this water

24 was being prepared for bathing.

25 Q. You said earlier it was 200 litres for the Muslims.

Page 5953

1 A. It's not only Muslims who took baths. Serbs took baths too.

2 Q. Isn't it true that the Serb detainees had access to this caldron

3 of hot water because they were allowed to leave their rooms?

4 A. Nobody was allowed to come specially. It's not that everybody

5 could just come and take the water, because if people did that, then

6 tonnes and tonnes of water would be required. Everybody had to ask.

7 Q. They had to ask you permission; right?

8 A. Well, not permission. For example, somebody would come and say,

9 "Could I have a bucket of water?" That would be about ten litres of

10 water. And then the water would be taken in the bucket for a bath and

11 that's it.

12 Q. Isn't it true that in December of 1992 two Muslim detainees asked

13 you for hot water and you said to go ahead and take it, but then a guard

14 found out, came back and asked you whether you had given permission, and

15 you said no? Isn't that right?

16 A. The only thing that is true is that if he came to ask for water,

17 he got the water, and it is not true that anybody reprimanded him.

18 Q. And when the guards found out or heard from you that you had not

19 given these two Muslim detainees permission, the two Muslim detainees were

20 taken to a solitary cell; isn't that right? Wasn't that the punishment?

21 A. It's not right. A man could not come to ask me for that and for

22 me not to give it; and to be taken to an isolation cell on account of

23 that, no.

24 Q. Detainees were taken to isolation cells as a form of punishment;

25 right?

Page 5954

1 A. I don't know about that.

2 Q. You worked in the kitchen every day; right?

3 A. Every day.

4 Q. So you were present all the time when the food was being prepared

5 and served; right?

6 A. That's right, yes.

7 Q. You had contact with the guards who came in to eat their meals or

8 to accompany the detainees?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you also had contact with the detainees, obviously; right?

11 A. Yes. Yes. I talked to them. We met and talked. There was no

12 obstacle to that, at least not as far as I'm concerned.

13 Q. So if things happened inside the canteen or just outside of it,

14 you would know about it, right; you would hear it or you would see it?

15 A. I wouldn't know anything about that. The kitchen is a bit further

16 off, and I wasn't really interested, so I don't know about that.

17 Q. Were you present, then, in June 1992 when a Muslim detainee named

18 Edin Gradisic, who had epilepsy, complained about the small amounts of

19 food he was getting, and three guards, including Perisic and Kunarac, hit

20 him and dragged him down the kitchen stairs? Were you there when that

21 happened? You're laughing.

22 A. I don't know about that. I really do not know about that, that it

23 happened, and I doubt that it ever happened.

24 Q. Did you see it happen?

25 A. No.

Page 5955

1 Q. Are you saying it never happened or you just weren't there?

2 A. I claim that it did not happen.

3 Q. Can I just ask you why you were laughing while you were listening

4 to that?

5 A. I was surprised that a man could say something like that. It

6 surprised me. That's why I smiled, wondering how come.

7 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, were you present when a guard Radovan -- there is a

8 Radovan Vukovic who is a guard, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you present in June or July of 1992 when he beat a Muslim

11 detainee named Selimovic in the dining room when the detainee tried to get

12 more food?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Again, are you saying that it never happened or you didn't see it?

15 A. I claim that it did not happen.

16 Q. And you can claim that because you were in the kitchen every day

17 and paying attention to everything, right?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. And if something like that had happened, it would have disturbed

20 you, right?

21 A. Well, it would have disturbed me, and I wouldn't have felt that it

22 was right.

23 Q. And you would have known that what the guard did was wrong, right?

24 A. Of course, right.

25 Q. And you would have had to report it to someone, right, that you

Page 5956

1 had seen this misbehaviour on the part of a guard? Or would you have just

2 let it go?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. Who would you have reported it to?

5 A. No, no way. I wouldn't let it pass just like that, no.

6 Q. To whom would you have reported that?

7 A. Some of the guards. I mean the superior guards, because among the

8 guards there were those who were superior to others. I don't know, but I

9 certainly would not have kept silent about a thing like that.

10 Q. Who were the superior guards?

11 A. Well, believe me, it was such a long time ago and everybody is

12 retired. I really have forgotten. I'm over 60. It's been quite a long

13 time, and I really can't say that to you now.

14 Q. How did you know certain guards were superior to others?

15 A. Well, I worked at the KP Dom for a long time. There were guards

16 and senior guards. Senior guards were those who had over 15 years of

17 service. Those were senior guards.

18 Q. And you've said that you worked at KP Dom for a long time, so you

19 knew the guards. Who were the superior guards? We don't need to have all

20 of them. Just give us an example. And I'm referring to the time during

21 the war.

22 A. Well, Simic Rajko, Dragicevic Gojko. I don't know. There's been

23 such a lot, and there were people coming in from the outside and leaving

24 and ...

25 Q. What would you expect those superior guards that you just

Page 5957

1 mentioned to do if you had reported seeing another guard beat up a

2 detainee?

3 A. I don't know, believe me. They would probably be reprimanded. I

4 don't know.

5 Q. Did you know a guard named Pljevaljcic?

6 A. There were several while I worked at the KP Dom. Pljevaljcic

7 Vaso, Pljevaljcic Vlatko, and some others whom I can't remember, but there

8 were people with that last name, yes.

9 Q. Were you present when one of the guards by that name beat up a

10 Muslim detainee who was a deaf mute?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know a guard named Burilo?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Isn't it true that while this deaf mute detainee was being beaten,

15 Burilo said, "I'll beat him so badly, it will make him speak"? Did he say

16 that?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Do you know a guard named Predrag Stefanovic?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. Were you present when he beat, kicked, slapped, and punched a

21 Muslim detainee named Nihad Pasovic, nicknamed Pace?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, were you present in August 1992 when some soldiers

24 from Trebinje came into the canteen and beat up some Muslim detainees?

25 A. I was present, but they didn't beat them up. Can I continue?

Page 5958

1 Q. What did they do to them?

2 A. The inmates were lined up, and four soldiers came up, but they

3 didn't really beat them up. They sort of slapped them in the face in

4 passing. It wasn't a real beating. That's what it looked like. I was

5 present there. These four soldiers came into the kitchen to have lunch.

6 Q. For what reason did they slap these detainees?

7 A. I can't really tell you. I don't know.

8 Q. These detainees hadn't done anything to provoke the slapping, did

9 they?

10 A. No.

11 Q. No one prevented the soldiers from slapping detainees, did they?

12 A. Well, I told you, it wasn't even slapping. It was just sort of in

13 passing, just a bit. No, it wasn't real slapping, no.

14 Q. When you said slapping just now, you used your hand in a motion,

15 and then you said it wasn't real slapping. You mean that these soldiers

16 used their hands --

17 A. No.

18 Q. These soldiers used their hands and hit these Muslim detainees who

19 had done nothing to provoke that, right?

20 A. Yes, that's what I said. They did nothing to provoke it, and it

21 wasn't real slaps. It wasn't really -- it -- like a child, you know. It

22 wasn't real slapping.

23 Q. They used their hand and with some force made contact with the

24 bodies of the Muslim detainees, right? Not enough to cause injuries, but

25 they did make contact, right?

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Page 5960

1 A. No. Well, I could be slapped five times a day that way. That was

2 not real slapping. No way.

3 Q. I don't want to get caught up in terms, Mr. Krnojelac. You used

4 the word "slap" and then said it wasn't slapping, and I've tried to give

5 you a description without using the word "slap." Do you disagree with my

6 description that the soldiers used their hands and made contact with the

7 Muslim detainees' bodies? Not just touching, but with some force.

8 A. No, no force. It was just in passing, just like this. No, no

9 force.

10 MS. KUO: Let the record reflect that the witness used his hand

11 and, in a swinging motion, swung across his body.

12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, and you remember that incident, right, nine years

13 ago?

14 A. Well, I told you about it just now.

15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, isn't it true that on the 30th of October, 1992,

16 you yourself accompanied between three to five armed men into the canteen

17 who then said, "Here are chickens to be slaughtered," and began to hit

18 Muslim detainees? Didn't you do that?

19 A. No.

20 Q. In the first part of November 1992, didn't you accompany three

21 armed men into the kitchen after lunch where these armed men threatened to

22 kill the Muslim detainees and then forced them to stand with their heads

23 bowed, and then they began to beat Dzevad Lojo, the director of mines, and

24 Dr. Amir Berberkic? Weren't you there when they did that?

25 A. No, no.

Page 5961

1 Q. You mentioned in your testimony earlier that the food produced in

2 the kitchen was for, and I'll quote, "The soldiers, the employees, the

3 prisoners, and even passersby." By -- first of all, when you said

4 soldiers, you meant there were soldiers working at the KP Dom, right, as

5 guards?

6 A. No, no. I meant soldiers who were passing by. And the cooking

7 was done for the detainees, Serb and Muslim, and for the staff members,

8 and for the military. There were also Serb soldiers there who were

9 serving time. So it was a sort of transit kitchen for soldiers who would

10 also come to eat, or I don't know what.

11 Q. Those weren't the soldiers you were referring to, the ones who

12 were being detained, because those would be prisoners, right?

13 A. Prisoners of Serb ethnicity, and the soldiers that came, as you

14 said a few minutes ago, those were people who would just come in passing,

15 eat, and leave. But there weren't soldiers there. There were only

16 soldiers who were serving their time. I don't know.

17 Q. So soldiers, Serb soldiers, had free access to KP Dom and could

18 come in just passing by; right?

19 A. Only during lunchtime, when they would come from the field and

20 when they were supposed to eat something. That's the only thing I'd

21 know. I don't know about anything else.

22 Q. But they had free access; they could come into the KP Dom, these

23 soldiers, passing by, couldn't they?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Sir, you just stated they did, that they could come into the KP

Page 5962

1 Dom even though they were just passing by.

2 A. They were passing by, and how they got in and whether they had

3 permission, that I don't know about. But it happened seldom, anyway.

4 Q. But the fact is, when you were inside KP Dom, you did see soldiers

5 coming in from the outside; right?

6 A. Yes. This one occasion when those three walked in, the ones we

7 mentioned. I didn't see anybody else.

8 Q. So by "seldom," you meant one time, just the single one time? Is

9 that what you mean?

10 A. That's right. That's exactly what I meant, when I was there, when

11 that happened.

12 MS. KUO: No further questions.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination, Mr. Vasic?

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence

15 has no further questions.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving your evidence here. You

17 are now free to leave.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, perhaps

21 between two witnesses it would be a good moment to look into something,

22 actually, the schedule. At the Pre-Defence Conference we said that we got

23 this group of witnesses, that they were available, and if I remember

24 correctly, we said that we would like into the matter again and see at

25 which pace we could proceed. We have one more witness, or rather two more

Page 5963

1 witnesses, that will probably remain for Monday. The first of the two

2 will start now, and I assume he will not finish, and we have yet another

3 witness for Monday, a guard, who will perhaps stay until Tuesday because

4 of cross-examination.

5 For the time being, for this cycle, for this period, the Defence

6 is not in a position to bring in other witnesses. However, all the

7 remaining witnesses can be brought after the 28th of May, for two or three

8 weeks. If that is all right with the Trial Chamber, then we could work

9 successively and finish with all the witnesses. We thought that this

10 would take three weeks, and we wanted to ask for a one-week break, and

11 then, during the second cycle, so to speak, to hear all the other

12 witnesses.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, the list that we have here is stated to

14 be for the period of the 7th to the 10th of May. That's this current

15 week. You had told us that you would have witnesses for three weeks, and

16 one of those weeks had a day short because of the local holiday on the

17 Monday. Now, did you really only intend to call these 12 witnesses for

18 three weeks?

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really did not know at

20 which pace we would proceed. We had eight witnesses, or rather one gave

21 up, and we thought that during the third week -- I mean, one of our

22 witnesses gave up. If you recall, during the first week we managed to

23 hear only one witness, so there were 11 witnesses, and I thought that that

24 would require all of two weeks perhaps. I think we said that we would see

25 at which pace we've been proceeding. And I tried now, in the field, to

Page 5964

1 bring in two doctors; however, they said to me that they were busy until

2 the 25th of May. So all the remaining witnesses we could bring in in

3 succession the week starting the 28th of May. If the Prosecutor agrees,

4 then we could hear all these witnesses successively until the end, and I

5 hope the three weeks would be sufficient for that.

6 JUDGE HUNT: It's a shame that you hadn't given us more notice of

7 this problem you were having. I know you haven't been here, but

8 nevertheless, it's a bit alarming. What you're asking for is nearly two

9 weeks off in between. We're getting just a little bit generous in our

10 time off, are we not?

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE HUNT: Is there some problem in relation to the second group

13 of witnesses, bringing some of them along to fill in next week?

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we can try, with the

15 Victims and Witnesses Unit, to see whether we could bring more people in

16 for next week. As soon as the session is over today, I'll try to do my

17 very best to bring people next week.

18 JUDGE HUNT: But what I'm saying, I think, is fairly clear. If

19 this was the end of your witnesses in this list that we have at the

20 moment, it was very apparent much earlier than today that you had run out

21 of witnesses for next week. The rate at which we've been going through

22 after we got through Mr. Dundjer has been fairly steady, without any

23 particular problem. They've all been dealt with in much the same length,

24 except perhaps for the witness we had overnight and finished this

25 morning. But it's nevertheless been very clear to anybody who realised

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Page 5966

1 this was the end of your witnesses list that we would run out of witnesses

2 next week. I think you had better do some hard work and see what you can

3 do about bringing somebody else along next week.

4 Certainly the week of the 21st we've agreed that you should have

5 off in order to assemble the remaining of your witnesses, but we would not

6 exactly be happy if we finished work at lunchtime on Tuesday. I mean,

7 from the point of view of the Trial Chamber, we have an immense amount

8 of work dealing with some other trials coming up on the list at the

9 moment, and I, frankly, would be glad to have the time off, but that's not

10 really the test. We have an obligation to ensure that these trials do not

11 take longer than is necessary, and I think that the week that we give off

12 every few weeks is more than generous. Now, I suggest that you spend a

13 little time with the Victims and Witnesses this afternoon so that we have

14 got at least a chance of your bringing along three or four other witnesses

15 to hear next week. If you can't, you can't, but we will not be very

16 happy, Mr. Bakrac.

17 All right. Well, then, so that you've got plenty of time to

18 organise with the Victims and Witnesses, we'll finish early this

19 afternoon, but we do expect to be kept busy for four days, if possible,

20 next week. You had better speak to the Prosecution about their

21 readiness. I should think that they will be ready. From the rate they

22 are going at the moment, they seem to have been able to prepare very

23 well. But if there's any problem, we'll deal with it on Monday morning.

24 But please, on Monday morning, I hope to get some happy news from you.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise to you

Page 5967

1 and I thank you. However, I wish to note one thing. It is not a question

2 of calculation. I was in the field. Mr. Vasic was here on his own with

3 the witnesses. We had our witness Dundjer, who was testifying. So there

4 are realistic problems involved. I hope that all the witnesses that we

5 have proposed will come, and we will try, we will indeed try to get

6 whoever we can get for next week. Together with the Victims and Witnesses

7 Unit, we will see what the possibilities are for having at least three or

8 four witnesses next week, as you said.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, please. All right, then. Well, we'll adjourn

10 now until 9.30 on Monday.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.36 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of May,

13 2001, at 9.30 a.m.