Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6293

 1                          Thursday, 17 May 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Call the case, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  This is the case number

 8    IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  Judge Lui is unable to be here today for reasons of

10    authorised Tribunal business and we propose to proceed under Rule 15(B).

11    Yes.

12            Sir, will you please take the solemn declaration which is being

13    shown to you by the court usher.

14            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

15    whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Sit down, please, sir.

17            Mr. Bakrac.

18                          WITNESS:  DRAGO VLADICIC

19                          [Witness answered through interpreter].

20            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, good morning Your

21    Honours.  Good morning to you.  Good morning to everybody.

22                          Examined by Mr. Bakrac:

23       Q.   Sir, good morning.  Can you hear me?

24       A.   Yes, yes.

25       Q.   Sir, I'm going to be asking you questions.  In view of the fact

Page 6294

 1    that we are speaking the same language, it is necessary for you to wait

 2    before you begin your answer until my question is translated so that

 3    everybody can follow what we are asking you and so that they can

 4    understand your answer.

 5            Perhaps it will help if you watch the screen in front of you and

 6    when you see the cursor stop moving, that the typing has stopped, then

 7    you can start your answer.

 8            Can we start now?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Sir, please could you tell me your first name and last name?

11       A.   My name is Drago Vladicic.

12       Q.   When were you born?

13       A.   I was born on the 7th of April 1947.

14       Q.   Where were you born?

15       A.   I was born in the village of Prijedjel in Foca.

16       Q.   How long -- until what year did you live in the village of

17    Prijedjel?

18       A.   I lived in the village until I completed eight grades of

19    elementary school, up until -- and secondary school up until the age of

20    15.

21       Q.   Where did you go after that?

22       A.   After that, I completed high school in Foca.

23       Q.   After high school, did you go to continue with your education?

24       A.   After high school, I completed the faculty of medicine in

25    Belgrade.

Page 6295

 1       Q.   Do you have a specialisation; did you specialise after completing

 2    general medical studies?

 3       A.   I specialised at clinics in Sarajevo and I am an ear, throat and

 4    nose specialist.

 5       Q.   When you completed medical school and your specialisation, did you

 6    start working, did you get a job?

 7       A.   When I completed medical school, I got a job that same year at the

 8    hospital in Foca, and later, when I completed my specialisation, I

 9    continued working there.  There was no interruption in my employment

10    there.

11       Q.   Since when have you been working at the hospital or the medical

12    centre in Foca?

13       A.   I started working at the hospital or the medical centre which also

14    the health centres in that region are a part of, and I also mean other

15    towns, the Visegrad, Cajnice, Rudo.  So I've been working there

16    continuously since 1974.

17       Q.   Are you still working at the hospital in Srbinje?

18       A.   Yes, I am still working there today.

19       Q.   During the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, did you work only at the

20    hospital in Foca or did you work in another, some other place as well?

21       A.   During the war, I was in Foca from the start until the end.  I was

22    there the entire time.  I worked at the hospital at the very beginning of

23    the war, I also worked out in the field.  I went out to the front besides

24    working at the hospital.  And I also worked at the correctional penal

25    facility, KP Dom.

Page 6296

 1       Q.   Could you please tell us when you started working at the KP Dom?

 2       A.   I started working at the KP Dom in the month of October 1992.

 3       Q.   Could you explain to us how it came about that you started to work

 4    at the KP Dom in Foca from October 1992?

 5       A.   Right from the beginning of the war in the territory of Foca, the

 6    number of medical staff who were working in the hospital in Foca was

 7    greatly reduced so that perhaps more than one half of the doctors had left

 8    the town and the hospital.  So the doctors employed at the Foca hospital,

 9    more than half the doctors had left town.

10            I began working at the KP Dom in Foca in the following way:  There

11    was an order that arrived from the military command in Foca.  The order

12    arrived to the hospital.  It was received by the director of the hospital,

13    Mr. Sekul Stanic.  He was a pediatrician.

14       Q.   When Mr. Sekul Stanic received this order, what happened then?

15       A.   From the beginning of the war, before me, Dr. Cedo Dragovic who

16    was a gynaecologist worked at the KP Dom.  Some time in September, as far

17    as I could remember, he left the hospital and the city, the town, and I

18    think he went somewhere in Serbia.

19       Q.   Thank you, sir.  If I understood you properly, at that time there

20    was a shortage of doctors and there was an order to allocate another

21    doctor.

22       A.   There was another order from the military command that arrived at

23    the hospital and the director at that time, the gentleman that I

24    mentioned, Mr. Stanic, put my name on that order.  He issued an order to

25    me to start working at the KP Dom and I understood that as part of my work

Page 6297

 1    duties as a doctor.

 2       Q.   Sir, you said that Director Stanic received an order from the

 3    military command, did you see that order?

 4       A.   Yes, I did.  He called me and showed me this order and told me

 5    that I will receive a work order and that I will be sent to work at the KP

 6    Dom as a doctor because medical service needed to be continued there at

 7    that facility.  And that I will also receive permission from the warden of

 8    the KP Dom to work there once I arrived at the KP Dom.

 9       Q.   Sir, do you remember who signed that order?  Do you know and do

10    you remember the order from the military command?

11       A.   The order from the military command, as far as I could remember,

12    was signed by Colonel Marko Kovac.

13       Q.   When you received the order to go to the KP Dom, once you received

14    that order, how often were you obliged to go to the KP Dom?

15       A.   Right from the very beginning, and this was mentioned or stated in

16    the order, I was required to go there twice a week.  So these two days a

17    week were agreed upon once I started working at the KP Dom.  It was agreed

18    for those two days to be Tuesday and Friday.

19       Q.   Besides going to the KP Dom on Tuesdays and Fridays, you had other

20    duties.  You were working on the other days as well.

21       A.   Duties relating to my work at the KP Dom also included urgent

22    cases, emergencies, so if I worked -- I was on call 24 hours a day,

23    sometimes there were emergencies, urgent cases that I needed to treat and

24    sometimes quite often such cases were also sent to the hospital.

25       Q.   Perhaps we didn't understand each other properly.  I was asking

Page 6298

 1    you besides those two days on Tuesdays and Fridays, on the other days, you

 2    also worked as a doctor in some other place.  You had other duties also.

 3       A.   Yes, I had quite a lot of work.  I had quite a lot of work in the

 4    hospital and besides that, during the war, three or four times I was sent

 5    to work in the medical corps at the front for not longer than a month at a

 6    time.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  Could you please explain to us briefly what the

 8    procedure was to enter the KP Dom once you received this order from the

 9    director and you began coming to the KP Dom.  What was the procedure in

10    order to enter the facility?

11       A.   The order allocating me to work at KP Dom, I reported to the

12    guards at the KP Dom.  At the entrance, the guard service at the beginning

13    of my work, several times, would escort me each time to the infirmary

14    where I was working and where the medical technician would wait for me.

15    Later, after about a month, when I would report to the guards at the

16    entrance and once they opened the door, then I would go through the

17    compound by myself.  I would enter the building to the third or the fourth

18    floor where the infirmary was and I would work there.  So later I would go

19    into the building alone, by myself.

20       Q.   You mentioned a medical technician.  Could you tell us his name,

21    please?

22       A.   The medical technician's name is Gojko Jokanovic.  I know that

23    before the war he worked as a medical technician at the KP Dom.

24       Q.   Mr. Vladicic, do you know whether this medical technician was at

25    the KP Dom every day?

Page 6299

 1       A.   Yes, he was at the KP Dom every day.  He was obliged to be there

 2    every day.  It was his assigned duty.

 3       Q.   Dr. Vladicic, could you please tell us up until when you worked at

 4    the hospital and at the KP Dom?

 5       A.   I worked at the hospital continuously from 1974 right up until

 6    today, and I worked at the KP Dom continuously since October 1992 until

 7    the end of 1999.

 8       Q.   You said until the end of 1999.  Did you -- have you continued

 9    working at the -- did you continue working at the KP Dom at the same --

10    the same amount of work hours, so twice a week on Tuesdays and Fridays

11    from the beginning, right up until the end of 1999?

12       A.   Because there was more work at the hospital for me, I needed

13    another doctor to help me with my work at the KP Dom which I explained to

14    the director of the hospital.  He felt that this was justified and with

15    the permission of the military command, because this was still during the

16    war, the director of the hospital issued an order for another doctor to

17    begin to work at the KP Dom.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Bakrac, the witness is recorded as having said

19    that he worked at the hospital continuously from 1974 right up until

20    today.  He originally told us that he started in 1992.  That may have

21    intended to be 1994.

22            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, I wasn't

23    following the transcript.  The witness said that he worked at the hospital

24    from 1994 up until now, 1974 until today and that he worked at the KP Dom

25    from 1992 until 1999.  I don't know if that's what is stated in the

Page 6300

 1    transcript.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  You're quite right.  I'm sorry.  I read it as it was

 3    coming up the screen and wondered about it, but I see now your explanation

 4    is quite correct.  I'm sorry to have interrupted you.

 5            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6       Q.   You said that orders were issued for another doctor.  I see that

 7    you are getting your glasses ready.  Do you need them for your

 8    transcript?  Should I wait with my question or should I continue?

 9       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Continue.

10       Q.   You said that the doctor of the hospital issued an order for

11    another doctor to start working at the KP Dom.  To which doctor did he

12    issue this order and when did he issue it?

13       A.   He issued an order for Dr. Milovan Dobrilovic who was a

14    radiologist.  He started working together with me at the beginning of

15    1993.  Our work schedule remained unchanged.  The only thing that changed

16    is that one of us worked one day and the other one worked the other day.

17    We changed.  I wouldn't always work on Tuesdays and he wouldn't always

18    work on Fridays.  Occasionally, we would change depending on our duties at

19    the hospital.

20       Q.   Thank you.  Since Dr. Dobrilovic is also going to testify, I only

21    want to ask you for how long he worked together with you in the way that

22    you have just described at the KP Dom?  Do you know that?

23       A.   Yes, I know Dr. Dobrilovic also worked until the end of 1999.  And

24    that's when we both stopped working there because the KP Dom employed a

25    permanent doctor who is working there every day.

Page 6301

 1       Q.   Dr. Vladicic, I am interested in the following:  You had the

 2    following work schedule in the way that you have described and you worked

 3    from 1992 until 1999.  Did this principle, the way that you worked, was

 4    that in force all the way in 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997 or were there any

 5    changes in this schedule in that period?

 6       A.   This arrangement, the way that the medical service worked at the

 7    KP Dom remained in force until the end of the war and then continued in

 8    the same way until 1999.

 9       Q.   So after the Muslims left the KP Dom, nothing changed, you

10    continued to come to the KP Dom in the same way as in the period when

11    Muslims were detained at the KP Dom; is this true?

12       A.   Yes, that's true.

13       Q.   Mr. Vladicic, when you were making your visits to the KP Dom, what

14    time would you come?  You told us on what days you came, but what was the

15    time?

16       A.   I would arrive usually around 11.00 or 12.00.  That's when I began

17    my work.

18       Q.   And you would go to the infirmary which was within the compound of

19    the KP Dom?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   In addition to that infirmary, was there also a dentist's

22    infirmary?

23       A.   I am aware that there was also a dental clinic in addition to the

24    infirmary where I worked and in that dental clinic, there was a dentist,

25    Dr. Boban Kostovic.

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Page 6303

 1       Q.   When you come to the infirmary at the KP Dom, what was the

 2    procedure for examining the persons who were there?

 3       A.   Mr. Jokanovic, the medical technician who worked with us, and who

 4    had worked for many years at the KP Dom and had a lot of experience, would

 5    occasionally inform us by telephone as required of the number of patients

 6    who were waiting for us at the infirmary, that is, in the waiting room.

 7    When we would come, the patients would be in the waiting room and those

 8    who were in their rooms were brought by guards.   Mr. Jokanovic would

 9    inform the guards to bring those other patients into the waiting room.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Sir, the admonition that Mr. Bakrac gave you at

11    the commencement of your evidence only applies in relation to the

12    questions he has asked.  You don't have to worry about the interpreters

13    keeping up with you when you are actually making your answer.  You needn't

14    wait for the typing to finish after each part of your answer.

15            I hope, however, you will not speak too quickly.  But the

16    interpreters that we have here are very able and they usually are able to

17    keep up with a witness when the answer is being given.  The only problem

18    that arises is when counsel has asked the question, you must wait for the

19    typing to finish before you answer that question.

20            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   Sir, I don't think you need any more explanations.  The honorable

22    Judge has made it clear enough, you just wait for me to finish my question

23    and then start answering after a brief pause.

24            When you have -- when you would examine these patients at the

25    infirmary, who was present except you and the patient?

Page 6304

 1       A.   Besides me and the patient, there would be this medical

 2    technician Gojko Jokanovic.

 3       Q.   Will you please tell me --

 4       A.   I haven't finished yet.

 5       Q.   When you finish your sentence, don't wait for the interpretation.

 6    His Honour told you that the interpreters can keep up with your answer

 7    once it has started.  You just go on fluently until you have finished

 8    answering.

 9       A.   I said Mr. Jokanovic would regularly be present.  Occasionally, if

10    a patient was brought by a guard, the guard would be there, but not inside

11    the infirmary because there was no need for that.  He would be in the

12    waiting room.

13       Q.   The waiting room was out in front of the infirmary?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Was this infirmary a proper one, was it clean and did you have all

16    the tools you needed for work?

17       A.   That infirmary was there even before the war.  It was equipped

18    with all the necessary equipment that was expected of an infirmary.  As

19    for cleanliness, I think it was relatively satisfactory to the extent it

20    was possible.  It was free of dirt.  I don't think anyone could say

21    otherwise.  It was clean.

22            As for heating in the winter, we had a wood stove which could also

23    use coal.  Anyway, there was heating.

24       Q.   So when you would come to perform examinations on a particular

25    day, how long would an examination last?  Did you have a set time or how

Page 6305

 1    did you work?

 2       A.   We worked as doctors usually do.  We would stay there as long as

 3    it took to examine all the patients in the waiting room.

 4       Q.   Did only Serbs, Serb detainees come to that infirmary or did

 5    Muslims come as well?

 6       A.   Both Muslims and Serbs came and Croats too.

 7       Q.   During the examinations and the performance of your duties, did

 8    you discriminate between patients of Serb and Muslim nationality?

 9       A.   Never.

10       Q.   After the examination would be over, would you prescribe therapy

11    for these patients?

12       A.   Certainly.  I prescribed whatever therapy was required.  That, of

13    course implied complete therapy conducted in an infirmary which means

14    injections, drips, and any medication taken orally.

15       Q.   And who was in charge of actually providing this therapy?

16       A.   Under our law on health care, that was the duty of the nurse who

17    was there at the infirmary.  If a medical intervention was required, a

18    so-called block or an injection, then it was us doctors who provided it.

19       Q.   You said nurse, did I understand you correctly as saying in this

20    specific case, it was Gojko Jokanovic?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   In addition to the infirmary, was there also a pharmacy?

23       A.   Yes, there was a pharmacy right next to the infirmary.  We

24    regularly went to that pharmacy because we needed to instruct him to avoid

25    any mistakes because the pharmacy belonged to the KP Dom.  Medication,

Page 6306

 1    medical supplies were provided to that pharmacy.

 2       Q.   Were there ever any shortages?

 3       A.   In the period when I worked at the KP Dom, I can't say there were

 4    never any shortages.  As far as certain medicines are concerned which are

 5    not the principal treatment for certain diseases, they were available

 6    because when a certain medicine was missing, at that particular pharmacy,

 7    we tried to procure it from the hospital's pharmacy and then Mr. Jokanovic

 8    would bring these.  He would go by car to the hospital and fetch them to

 9    the KP Dom pharmacy.

10       Q.   Tell me, sir, when you have examined patients of Serb and Muslim

11    ethnicity, did you notice signs of violence on their bodies, any injuries,

12    traces of physical abuse?

13       A.   I didn't notice any traces of violence or physical abuse.

14       Q.   Did you notice considerable malnourishment in them?

15       A.   I did not notice pronounced malnourishment in them either except

16    in a few cases.  In those few cases, there was malnourishment, extreme

17    thinness which I know was the result of disease, chronic disease.

18       Q.   Can you remember anyone in particular?

19       A.   Weight loss or malnourishment in sufferers from specific diseases

20    are met, for instance, in sufferers from duodenal ulcer.  I remember

21    specifically one such patient, his name was [redacted] whom I had known

22    before the war and whom I had treated at that infirmary.  I also remember

23    a patient Kubat, Kubat was his last name.  I don't remember his first

24    name.  He had a moustache.  He was suffering from the same ailment, the

25    ulcer that I mentioned.

Page 6307

 1       Q.   Doctor, you mentioned those two patients.  Did you prescribe

 2    therapy for them and had they been at the KP Dom before you arrived and

 3    had they been administered any therapy before you came; do you know that?

 4       A.   I know about them from the time that I arrived and from the time I

 5    began to examine them and I know that they had therapy which was adequate

 6    to their ailments.  However, as for the medication that was available, we

 7    gave them drips and other medicines, because they couldn't take in food

 8    normally. [redacted] suffered from stenosis, that is a narrowing of the

 9    duodenum, and liquid food was more appropriate for him and he required a

10    diet.

11       Q.   You mentioned [redacted] and you said you knew him from before.

12    Do you know whether he suffered from the same disease even before the

13    outbreak of hostilities?

14       A.   I know that he suffered from this ulcer.

15       Q.   And before the hostilities, he also received therapy.

16       A.   He was treated as an outpatient.  I don't know whether he was

17    treated at the hospital, possibly occasionally.

18       Q.   Sir, can you tell me what the situation was in Foca town after the

19    termination of military operations regarding the supply of food and

20    staples?

21       A.   When do you mean?

22       Q.   After the 16th of April 1992.

23       A.   The situation was difficult in every respect.  Food was in short

24    supply a lot of the time.  People had little money.

25       Q.   When you say people had little money, did you receive your salary

Page 6308

 1    regularly in 1992 and 1993 at the hospital?

 2       A.   During the war, we received salary but they were minimal, minimal

 3    amounts so that we had to make do in other ways and even we doctors had

 4    to plant vegetables in order to have food.  Flour was often unavailable,

 5    bread.  There were shortages of electricity, cuts.  There was general

 6    chaos.

 7       Q.   Mr. Vladicic, did you know Mr. Milorad Krnojelac from before the

 8    war?

 9       A.   I knew Mr. Krnojelac even before the war.  I had known him for

10    several years before the war but mostly by sight.  I knew that he worked

11    as a teacher.  I wasn't particularly close with him.

12       Q.   Tell me, please, did you see Mr. Krnojelac at the KP Dom when you

13    visited?

14       A.   In the whole time that he was there at the KP Dom, I saw him no

15    more than three or four times.

16       Q.   Those three or four times that you saw him, can you remember where

17    you saw him?

18       A.   I would see him in passing, mainly or outside the KP Dom.  We had

19    no meetings, we didn't talk much because there were no particular problems

20    to discuss regarding the medical service.

21       Q.   Do you recall what he was wearing when you saw him?

22       A.   I saw him in civilian uniform.  It's possible that he was wearing

23    a camouflage uniform on one occasion.  It was a camouflage shirt and I'm

24    not sure about the trousers.

25       Q.   Are you aware whether Milorad Krnojelac was politically involved

Page 6309

 1    before the war and during the war?

 2       A.   As far as I know, he did not move in those political circles

 3    because I knew those people, the politicians, by sight at least.  I didn't

 4    see him among them.  I saw him mainly in the company of his own

 5    colleagues, teachers.

 6       Q.   And do you know whether Mr. Krnojelac had any nationalist

 7    prejudice during the war and before the war?

 8       A.   I don't think he had, although I have no particular basis for

 9    judgement in this issue.

10            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, these were

11    all the questions we had of this witness.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Cross-examination.  Ms. Kuo.

13            MS. KUO:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                          Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

15       Q.   Good morning, Dr. Vladicic.

16            Dr. Vladicic, you mentioned that you replaced Dr. Cedo Dragovic

17    who had been going to the KP Dom before you.  He was going under --

18    pursuant to a military order just as you were; right?

19            MS. KUO:  Your Honour, I'm not getting a reaction from the

20    witness, I wonder if his headphones are working properly.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Sir, did you hear that question?

22       A.   Yes, I can hear you now.

23            MS. KUO:  Let me repeat my question.

24       Q.   Dr. Vladicic, you mentioned that you replaced Dr. Cedo Dragovic

25    who had been going to the KP Dom before you.  He was also going pursuant

Page 6310













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Page 6311

 1    to a military order just as you were; right?

 2       A.   I think he worked in the same way in keeping with the request of

 3    the military command.

 4       Q.   And Dr. Dragovic is a Serb; right?

 5       A.   Dr. Dragovic is a Serb.

 6       Q.   While he was going to the KP Dom, he also saw prisoners and

 7    detainees there.  That would be from the end of April until sometime in

 8    September; right?

 9       A.   As far as I know, Dr. Dragovic performed examinations until the

10    end of September, around that time, and that's about the time when he

11    left.

12       Q.   In other words, he was performing examinations at the KP Dom

13    throughout the summer of 1992; right?

14       A.   In addition, Dr. Dragovic told me that on a few occasions, he was

15    replaced in those duties by certain colleagues of whom he had asked this

16    favour when he was not able to attend.

17       Q.   We've had numerous witnesses tell us that Dr. Dragovic fled or ran

18    away to Serbia.  That's true, isn't it?

19       A.   I don't know whether he had fled or not.  All I know is that I

20    didn't see him after September.

21       Q.   He left without seeking permission from the military; right?  I

22    mean that wasn't something that was arranged, he just left.

23       A.   I don't know about that either.  I don't know how he left.

24       Q.   Well, Dr. Dragovic was going to the KP Dom, he was still working

25    at the Foca hospital with you; right?

Page 6312

 1       A.   That is correct.  He, too, worked at the hospital, but he worked

 2    in the first pavilion, the first building within the hospital

 3    centre which comprises five buildings.  Whereas I worked in building

 4    number 3 or pavilion number 3, so that as far as that is concerned, I

 5    worked in my own service in a separate building from where he worked.

 6            We would see each other occasionally, especially down at the

 7    canteen and also in the hospital yard.

 8       Q.   When you saw Dr. Dragovic, did he ever tell you that he was making

 9    plans to leave Foca or did he simply disappear one day?

10       A.   We really didn't discuss that, and I don't know anything about

11    it.

12       Q.   If he were under military order, as you were, and he simply left

13    without seeking permission, that would have been a violation of the order;

14    right?

15       A.   It is my conviction that if I had left, I would have violated the

16    order according to which I was supposed to stay in my workplace for the

17    entire duration of the war, even during the war.

18       Q.   Dr. Dragovic never suffered any consequences as a result of his

19    leaving this military order, did he?

20       A.   I know nothing about that.

21       Q.   You never heard of him being brought back to Foca and being forced

22    to continue working, did you?  That never happened.

23       A.   No, I didn't hear of that.

24       Q.   And certainly he wasn't imprisoned either, was he, as a result of

25    his leaving this military order?

Page 6313

 1       A.   I've already said that he wasn't returned.  After he left, I

 2    didn't see him anymore.

 3       Q.   Now in addition to Dr. Dragovic, you mentioned a Dr. Dobrilovic.

 4    He's Serb also; right?

 5       A.   Dr. Dobrilovic is a Montenegrin.

 6       Q.   But of the orthodox religion.

 7       A.   Yes, of the orthodox religion.

 8       Q.   And the doctor -- and the dentist, Dr. Kostovic, is also Serbian?

 9       A.   Dr. Kostovic is a Serb, an orthodox Serb.

10       Q.   Sir, among the people, your colleagues working with you at that

11    time, that is going to treat patients at the KP Dom, there were no Muslim

12    doctors.  Can you explain to us why not?

13       A.   I would have to think about that, but I don't think I could really

14    respond to that question.

15       Q.   Before the war, and even when the war started, you did have Muslim

16    doctor colleagues, like Dr. Aziz Torlak, [redacted], Dr. Amir

17    Berberkic.  Those were your colleagues; right?

18       A.   Yes, that's true.  I mostly socialised and I was the closest to

19    Dr. Torlak before the war.

20       Q.   Could you tell us what happened to Dr. Torlak when the war

21    started?

22       A.   I don't know that.  Dr. Torlak was a surgeon.  He also worked in

23    the first pavilion, in the first building in the surgery department and I

24    worked in the place where I described to you before.

25       Q.   At some point, Dr. Vladicic, Dr. Torlak, as well as the other

Page 6314

 1    Muslim doctors, were arrested and taken to KP Dom; right?

 2       A.   I don't know that.

 3       Q.   You never saw Dr. Torlak at the KP Dom?

 4       A.   I never saw Dr. Torlak at the KP Dom.  Of the doctors, the only

 5    one that I saw at the KP Dom was Dr. Sead Selimovic, also [redacted]

 6    [redacted] was at the KP Dom at that time, but I didn't used to see him. He

 7    is a doctor as well so he never came to me, to the infirmary for any

 8    medicines or any medical treatment.  I never saw him, but I heard that he

 9    was at the KP Dom at that time.

10       Q.   You said that the reason [redacted] never came to see you at the

11    infirmary was that he himself was a doctor.  Do you mean that he could

12    treat himself and therefore would never need to see a doctor?

13       A.   [redacted] is a doctor and he worked at the KP Dom, and he

14    worked with Gojko Jokanovic for much longer than I did.  He would come to

15    the infirmary.  His colleague -- my colleague Dobrilovic said that he

16    would come to see him.  He came to see him a couple of times.  And as far

17    as medicines are concerned, he could have anything that he needed.

18    Whatever was there at the KP Dom pharmacy was also available for him if he

19    needed it.

20       Q.   Are you aware that [redacted] was a detainee at the KP Dom, not

21    an employee like you were?  He was actually detained there.  He couldn't

22    leave.  Are you aware of that?

23       A.   I really don't know anything about that.

24       Q.   So you don't know that he was working there; right?  You said he

25    was working there.  You don't know that either.

Page 6315

 1       A.   No, I didn't say that he worked there.  I said that [redacted], I

 2    didn't see him working there, but I know that he had contacts with the

 3    medical technician Gojko who had a key to the pharmacy and I told you that

 4    he worked together with him before the war.  And Mr. Jokanovic told me

 5    that he had given him some medicines and I believe that.  This is

 6    something that's reliable.

 7       Q.   What was Dr. Selimovic doing at KP Dom?  You said you saw him

 8    there.

 9       A.   I saw Dr. Selimovic on a couple of occasions.  He came to see me

10    at the infirmary and he took some medicines, some painkillers, some pills

11    for headaches.  I used to see him often in the yard during walks, and he

12    would also come to the infirmary.  And in such cases, if one of the

13    patients had toothache, then he, together with the medical technician

14    Gojko, they would go to the dental office and they would extract a tooth

15    if the person had a strong toothache or if this happened at night or

16    something like that.

17       Q.   Dr. Selimovic was also detained at the KP Dom because he was a

18    Muslim; right?

19       A.   I don't know in what capacity he was there.  I did see him there.

20    I saw him.  I know that he was there.  Whether he was a detainee, as you

21    call it, I really don't know.  I really don't know in what capacity he was

22    there.

23       Q.   When you saw him taking walks in the yard, he was accompanied, he

24    was in a group and accompanied by guard; right?

25       A.   I saw him -- I used to see him by himself to tell you the truth.

Page 6316

 1    Occasionally Gojko told me that he asked to work on the hedge or work on

 2    the flowers and he received permission to do that.  Perhaps he was bored

 3    or he needed something to do to pass the time.  So I would see him on

 4    occasion doing that kind of work.

 5       Q.   Did you ever learn what happened to Dr. Torlak?

 6       A.   As a person, as a doctor, for me, war is a misfortune for

 7    everyone, and if I really started to think about it, there were different

 8    stories, there were different things that were said.  But I never really

 9    thought about that or came to any conclusions regarding him and his fate.

10    There is nothing that I can really tell you about that and there is no

11    point in guessing.

12       Q.   You treated everybody who was brought to you at the KP Dom; right?

13       A.   Certainly.

14       Q.   You've told us you made no distinctions between Muslims and Serbs?

15       A.   Never, and Croats too.  There were also Croats there.

16       Q.   Can you tell us on any given day how many patients you saw on

17    average?

18       A.   It varied from case to case, from occasion to occasion.  But let's

19    say there were from 15 to 30 patients, sometimes even more.

20       Q.   And of those patients, could you tell us approximately what the

21    percentage of Muslims and Serbs were?

22       A.   I really don't know that.  I think that at that time, I wasn't

23    able to remember.  You know how it is.  Even today, it's difficult to

24    remember numbers.  I've been working for 30 years.  There was a protocol,

25    a register so each visit was entered into this book.  All the patients who

Page 6317

 1    came, who were examined, who were given prescriptions, who were

 2    administered therapy, all of that was written down in that protocol, also

 3    whether they received medicines.  Everything was recorded.

 4       Q.   Would you say it was approximately half and half, Muslims and

 5    Serbs?

 6       A.   I really couldn't tell you the percentage.

 7       Q.   Was it predominantly Muslim?

 8       A.   I didn't say it was predominantly Muslims.  I don't think it was

 9    like that.

10       Q.   You didn't make any distinction either between the Serbs who were

11    serving civilian sentences, who had been convicted by a civilian court,

12    and those who were there because of a military violation; right?  You made

13    no distinction between those patients.

14       A.   As a doctor, in my work so far, always adhered to moral and

15    ethical principles and I never distinguished between patients who would

16    come to me.

17       Q.   You've told us that you saw the patients in the clinic and I'd

18    like to show you Exhibit P6/4 which is a diagram of the KP Dom showing the

19    area where the clinic was located and I'd just like to get some

20    clarification from you about where the rooms were.

21            Please tell us if you find it to be accurate or if there are

22    inaccuracies that you'd like to correct.

23            This is the second floor of the prisoners quarters in the upper

24    left hand corner and there is an area that's marked as being the hospital

25    or clinic; do you recognise that?

Page 6318













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14    and the English transcripts.












Page 6319

 1       A.   Yes, I see where it says infirmary.  Then the pharmacy, when you

 2    enter the infirmary on the left side is the pharmacy, I see that.  I also

 3    see the waiting room, the toilet, and then the dental office is to the

 4    right from here but I didn't go into the dental office.

 5       Q.   Would you please use the pointer --

 6       A.   This is on the sketch as far as I can see.

 7       Q.   Not everything has been marked on the sketch so it would assist us

 8    greatly if you would point out to us the rooms that you've just mentioned.

 9    Please show us where the entrance was to the infirmary.

10       A.   The main entrance, as far as I can see, is here.  This is

11    somewhere where it -- it should be here.  And the guards were here.  Is

12    this the main entrance, because I really -- I'm not speaking into the

13    microphone.

14       Q.   Dr. Vladicic, what you've pointed out to us is the main entrance

15    to the KP Dom.  We're all familiar with that.  What I'd like is for you to

16    point out the entrance to the infirmary itself.

17       A.   This is the main entrance.  When I entered from this, I would come

18    in through the main entrance.  This is the main door.  Once you open the

19    door, you are in the compound.  This is the compound.  I would go this

20    way.  I would go up the stairs.  Then I would -- I would climb the

21    stairs.  I would go to the third floor, as far as I remember, and this is

22    where these rooms were, the infirmary, the pharmacy, the dental office,

23    the waiting room and everything else that is here on this sketch.

24       Q.   Doctor, you need to go a little bit slower because when you are

25    pointing, with the interpretation is a little bit behind you.  So could

Page 6320

 1    you please -- let's start with -- when you enter the --

 2       A.   Very well, I'll repeat it.  I will say it again.  This is what I

 3    said:  Once --

 4       Q.   Dr. Vladicic, we just need to start at the point when you've got

 5    up to the third floor and you enter the infirmary.  Would you please put

 6    the pointer there.

 7       A.   Once I came to the third floor, once I climbed the stairs, there

 8    is a door which you open and then you come in and then from that hall, you

 9    would enter the waiting room.

10       Q.   Okay.  The witness is showing as he comes up the stairs, he turns

11    left and there is a hallway.  Well, left on the photograph if you're

12    coming up the stairs.

13       A.   It's on the left side in the photograph, but once I climbed the

14    stairs it's on my right side.  Here I pointed to the left.  I didn't

15    orient myself.  I can tell you without the sketch.  Once I come to the

16    third floor, I turn right.  I get to the door.  This door is locked.

17    That's where --

18       Q.   Let's just take it step by step.  Show us where the locked door

19    was.  Just put the pointer where the locked door was.

20       A.   As soon as I left the stairs on the third floor, there is a small

21    sort of entry and there is a door there.  This door is locked.  Once you

22    go through that door, further along there are all of these rooms which

23    make up the infirmary; the waiting room, the infirmary, the pharmacy, and

24    the dental office.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Doctor, what we want you to do is point with the

Page 6321

 1    pointer on this plan and tell us in relation to each of the rooms that you

 2    see as you come through that corridor what they were.  There is one there

 3    marked WC, that's the first one on your right.  What was that room?

 4       A.   That was the toilet, I think.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  Now the next room past that, what was that

 6    room?

 7       A.   I can't see what is written there.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Don't worry about what's written there.  I can't even

 9    tell you what it was.  What we want to know is what do you understand that

10    room to have been used for, the first one past the toilet?

11       A.   I know that I would pass the waiting room where the patients were

12    waiting.  The medical technician would wait for me there and then on the

13    door to the infirmary.  It said "infirmary."  This is where I would go in.

14    The door would be open and this is where I would enter the infirmary.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  Now, would you please point to us on the plan the

16    room which you say was the infirmary with that sign on it?  That's what

17    Ms. Kuo's been asking you.

18       A.   This is the infirmary.  This is the infirmary and then next to the

19    infirmary at the end is the pharmacy.  So when I came in, the pharmacy was

20    on my left side if I was in the infirmary.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, let's take it from the corner room was the

22    pharmacy, the next one along to the right was the infirmary.  Can we

23    assume that the room between the infirmary and the lavatory was the

24    waiting room?

25       A.   There were some chairs there in the part -- in front of the

Page 6322

 1    infirmary.  It was quite a large room, and this is where the patients

 2    waited.

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  The room next to the toilet; is that so?

 4       A.   The patients were in this area which is like a hallway, and this

 5    is where the chairs were.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  I think --

 7       A.   For the patients.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  I think we've now got the plan sorted out.

 9            MS. KUO:  Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.  We won't need this

10    plan anymore.

11       Q.   Dr. Vladicic, there was -- in the infirmary itself when patients

12    came to see you, there was no private room for a private consultation or

13    examination; right?  You did the examination in that room with the door

14    open.

15       A.   The door was not open.  The door would always be closed when the

16    patient came in for an examination.

17       Q.   Was it possible for the patient to take his clothes off in

18    private?

19       A.   I don't understand.  They couldn't be seen from where?

20       Q.   As a doctor, sometimes you have to examine parts of people's

21    bodies and there are parts -- people do not just undress in front of

22    other people readily.  My question is:  Was it possible to examine the

23    patient's full body in private?

24       A.   We did not conduct such examinations in the presence of other

25    people.  The only people who were present would be the doctor and the

Page 6323

 1    medical technician.

 2       Q.   If a person -- if a patient were brought in with a guard, the

 3    guard would stay right outside the door; right?

 4       A.   Yes.  He would close the door and stand in front of the door.

 5       Q.   You're aware that among the patients that you were examining were

 6    convicted murderers; right?

 7       A.   I really am not familiar with the sentences and the verdicts.  I

 8    had a lot of work.  I had other duties at that time.  So I really didn't

 9    have time to think about that or take any interest in what kind of a

10    sentence a person had.

11       Q.   But the guard was there to protect -- to make sure that the

12    patient who was brought in didn't do any harm to you; right?  That was one

13    of the purposes of having a guard stand right outside the door.

14       A.   I think whatever the reasons were, as far as the patients were

15    concerned, I didn't think that there was any possibility that they would

16    want to hurt me.  But I really don't know why they would be accompanied by

17    a guard.

18       Q.   When you examined the patient, sometimes there were situations

19    that you, yourself, were not able to treat; right?  Your specialty was

20    ear, throat, nose so if a patient had a problem with his heart, you were

21    not in a position to treat it; right?

22       A.   All serious cases, patients that had heart ailments or any other

23    serious illness, there were specialists at the hospital.  I would then

24    send those patients to these specialists.  Gojko was the person

25    responsible for taking them to be examined at the hospital, and after such

Page 6324

 1    an examination, if any patients required hospitalisation or hospital

 2    treatment, they would be approved for -- they would be referred for

 3    treatment at the hospital.

 4            Patients that were -- that required inpatient treatment would then

 5    be referred to see the relevant specialist and they would also be given

 6    the treatment that would then later be administered once they came back to

 7    the KP Dom.

 8       Q.   Doctor, you never treated anything that looked like combat

 9    injuries, right; gunshots, shrapnel wounds?  I mean in the KP Dom.

10       A.   My specialisation, ear, throat, and nose is also -- also has an

11    element of surgery.  So when I was working at the hospital, I always knew

12    when I was working there what needed to be treated.  So if I came across

13    such a case, such cases would then always be sent to the hospital for

14    treatment, and this includes the cases that you were asking about in your

15    question, wounds and firearm injuries.

16       Q.   In 1992 and 1993 when you were working at the KP Dom, did you come

17    across cases of such injuries?

18       A.   I didn't come across such injuries when I was working at the KP

19    Dom at that time, because these cases could happen at any time of the day

20    or night.  So if such an urgent case in -- I would be called in to provide

21    treatment.  If something like that happened in the afternoon or at night,

22    they would call me to come to the KP Dom to examine such a patient and to

23    provide treatment.  If any injuries occurred, cuts, it didn't necessarily

24    have to be something that was sustained at the front, but any kind of

25    injuries that required surgical treatment, then I would be called in.

Page 6325

 1    Jokanovic was always there, and we would transfer such patients to the

 2    hospital so that could receive appropriate medical treatment.

 3            MS. KUO:  It's 11.00 Your Honours.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  We'll resume at 11.30.

 5                          --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

 6                          --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Ms. Kuo.

 8            MS. KUO:

 9       Q.   Dr. Vladicic, I understood from your answer just before the break

10    that you were available 24 hours a day in case anybody were injured at the

11    KP Dom, you could be called in and would assist to have the person

12    admitted to hospital; right?

13       A.   I was on duty, or rather on call, round the clock in the event of

14    emergency so that if any emergency arose with any of the people at the KP

15    Dom, I would have to come if summoned by telephone, by Gojko Jokanovic or

16    anybody else from the KP Dom.

17       Q.   In 1992 and 1993, that never happened, right, that you were

18    summoned to the KP Dom?

19       A.   In the course of 1992 and 1993, there were cases that needed

20    attending to while I was at the hospital and I was summoned by Gojko

21    Jokanovic to treat them.  I also know that my colleague, Dr. Dobrilovic,

22    had such emergencies and that he brought such patients with him to the

23    hospital.

24       Q.   None of these emergencies that you mentioned were related to

25    injuries.  That's what we were discussing before the break.

Page 6326













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Page 6327

 1       A.   Those were mainly minor injuries, cuts sustained at the KP Dom by

 2    accident during work.  I had no information that any injury was inflicted

 3    on purpose as a result of maltreatment or abuse.

 4       Q.   You testified, Dr. Vladicic, that you did not notice pronounced

 5    malnutrition except on patients who had chronic disease.  The fact that a

 6    person is not receiving sufficient food makes the chronic disease worse;

 7    right?

 8       A.   It may be that due to the circumstances which prevailed then.  I,

 9    myself, had a significant weight loss in that first year of war, 1992, and

10    it was only to be expected that such negative factors would have an

11    adverse effect on the course of a chronic disease.

12       Q.   You mentioned an [redacted] who had duodenal ulcer?

13       A. [redacted].

14       Q.   You mentioned that he had that condition evenly before the war.

15    Do you have any idea why somebody with that medical condition was being

16    detained at the KP Dom rather than being treated at a hospital?

17       A.   Regarding his chronic ulcer, that type of patient can be treated

18    from time to time at the hospital or can be treated as outpatient.  He was

19    constantly supervised by doctors and, on occasion, when necessary, he was

20    brought into the hospital.

21       Q.   You're aware, doctor, that there were patients who were taken --

22    who were being treated inpatient at the Foca hospital who were taken

23    directly to the KP Dom in the fall of 1992; right?  Patients with an

24    asthma condition and things like that.

25       A.   Could you say that again?

Page 6328

 1       Q.   You were certainly aware, Doctor, that in the fall of 1992, there

 2    were some Muslims who had been treated at the Foca hospital, inpatient,

 3    they were living, staying there.  They were taken directly to the KP Dom

 4    and detained there.  You were aware of that; right?

 5       A.   Do you mean Muslims?

 6       Q.   Yes.

 7       A.   I have no such data or records.

 8       Q.   You had no record of an asthma patient who was being treated at

 9    the hospital but then taken to the KP Dom even though he required

10    hospitalisation?

11       A.   I don't know if you mean a particular case.  I don't remember any

12    such case.  Perhaps that patient was seen by Dr. Dobrilovic.  In fact, in

13    1992, I don't remember that there was such a case.  Do you know

14    specifically who that was?

15       Q.   Did you know [redacted]?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Dr. Vladicic, you were never taken to prisoners' rooms to examine

18    patients that were too frail to come to the infirmary; right?

19       A.   I don't think there was any necessity for that.  As far as I know,

20    regarding all people, whether they were in their rooms or came to us, to

21    the infirmary as patients, Gojko Jokanovic was the person in charge of

22    taking care of regular day-to-day examinations.

23       Q.   And again, concentrating on the years 1992 and 1993, you were

24    never permitted to go into the isolation cells to examine any patients

25    there, were you?

Page 6329

 1       A.   I have already told you that I think that it is my belief that all

 2    people who needed treatment and needed to be seen by a doctor were brought

 3    to me, to the infirmary.

 4       Q.   That is merely your belief, but you don't know that for a fact, do

 5    you?

 6       A.   I know what my opinion is.  I believe that was so.

 7       Q.   You were not allowed free access into the prisoners' rooms; right?

 8      You couldn't just walk around and talk to prisoners freely.

 9       A.   I could complete a part of my work as a specialist regarding their

10    health and the necessary care at the infirmary.  I could deal with it at

11    the infirmary.  I know that Dr. Dobrilovic had one case when he was

12    summoned urgently and he had to go to visit a patient in his room.

13       Q.   But you never did.  You only treated people in the infirmary;

14    right?

15       A.   There was never any such request made by Gojko, the nurse.  He

16    never asked me to go to any rooms.  All my examinations and all my work

17    were performed at the infirmary.

18       Q.   When you were at the infirmary, did you notice whether the

19    infirmary had been damaged during war operations?

20       A.   I didn't notice any such thing starting from October 1992 when I

21    was there, as far as the infirmary is concerned.

22       Q.   When you needed medicines or supplies from the pharmacy, to the

23    extent they were available, they were freely provided; right?  There were

24    no restrictions on providing that to particular patients?

25       A.   Do you mean only the medicines that were available at the pharmacy

Page 6330

 1    of the KP Dom or you mean also the hospital pharmacy?

 2       Q.   I meant at the KP Dom.  There was no distinction made between

 3    military supplies in the pharmacy and what was available to all the

 4    prisoners.

 5       A.   Whether they were military supplies or supplies from the hospital,

 6    there was a lot of medication from humanitarian aid supplies.  We would

 7    make requests.  We would make up a list, and give it to Gojko Jokanovic,

 8    and Gojko Jokanovic would procure the medicines which were not available

 9    at the KP Dom pharmacy, he would get from the hospital pharmacy.

10            I think that the situation was satisfactory as far as medicines

11    were concerned in view of the fact that there was a war going on.

12       Q.   Doctor, you mentioned that sometimes you had to go to the field to

13    work there for a few weeks at a time.  Do you recall when those periods of

14    time were?

15       A.   That was mainly in 1993 and 1994.  But I never stayed in the field

16    longer than a month.

17       Q.   When you said 1993, you meant -- did you mean the early part as

18    well?

19       A.   I think that in 1993, I was in the field in the second half of

20    that year, perhaps in September.  Sometimes it would be for tours of seven

21    days, sometimes ten days.  Once I spent there three to four weeks.

22       Q.   So obviously during those times, you could not go to the KP Dom.

23       A.   About 1992, I said I went out into the field in 1993, but before I

24    would leave, I would always agree with Dr. Dobrilovic to substitute for me

25    and vice versa.  When he was away, I substituted for him.

Page 6331

 1       Q.   Doctor, were you ever called upon to do any autopsies on people

 2    who had died at the KP Dom in 1992 and 1993?

 3       A.   I am not a pathologist.  Autopsies require a pathologist and at

 4    that time in Foca, there was no such doctor.

 5       Q.   But you know that there were some people in 1992 and 1993 who did

 6    die while they were detained at KP Dom.  You're not denying that, are

 7    you?

 8       A.   I had no such cases.  I know of a case which Dr. Dobrilovic had

 9    and it is Dr. Dobrilovic who told me about it.

10       Q.   Which case was that?

11       A.   I really can't remember the name.

12       Q.   What did the patient die of?

13       A.   He knows much more about it than I do.

14       Q.   So you personally never learned of a case where a detainee hanged

15    himself?

16       A.   I don't know about that.

17       Q.   And isn't it true that there was also a patient, a detainee, who

18    was a deaf mute who died in his room because he required stomach surgery.

19    This was in June of 1993.

20       A.   I don't know about that either.

21       Q.   Did you know an Ibrahim Sandal who died of injuries at the

22    KP Dom?

23       A.   I didn't know the man, and I don't know of that case.

24       Q.   You don't know Esad Hadzic who died when his ulcer burst?  You

25    don't know about that either?

Page 6332

 1       A.   I wasn't familiar with that case either.  It wasn't my case.  I

 2    don't know whether Dr. Dobrilovic treated it.

 3       Q.   Doctor, you've said that you saw Milorad Krnojelac at the KP Dom

 4    three or four times.  Did you ever -- I'll go back.  You testified earlier

 5    that you -- when you first reported to the KP Dom, you were told that you

 6    needed to receive permission from the warden once you arrived.  That

 7    warden was Milorad Krnojelac; right?

 8       A.   When I arrived to the KP Dom to work on that order that I

 9    mentioned, there was, as I said, a guard on duty at the entrance.  I

10    showed him the piece of paper I had with me, and that was sufficient for

11    him to open the door and lead me to the infirmary.

12       Q.   So you didn't actually receive permission from the warden; right?

13    You told us that was one of the conditions of your order.

14       A.   I had permission.  There was a document and the guard on duty at

15    the entrance knew very well which doctors were assigned to work at the KP

16    Dom and they would check these papers and we would go on to work.  Later

17    on, we became familiar faces and they didn't check us anymore.

18       Q.   During the entire time that you were working at the KP Dom, you

19    never had dealings with Milorad Krnojelac; right?  You never had to

20    consult with him.

21       A.   I have said this earlier.  We would say hello in passing when we

22    met.  We would talk sometimes perhaps about any problems that may have

23    existed related to the infirmary, the medical service, about whether there

24    were sufficient medicines.  I would tell him how we procured medicines

25    from the hospital, and we got some medicines from the army as well.  And a

Page 6333

 1    great part of the medicines came from humanitarian aid, international

 2    humanitarian aid.  They were delivered, for the most part, to the medical

 3    centre, to the hospital.

 4       Q.   You never consulted with Milorad Krnojelac about Serb prisoners

 5    who were serving their sentence; right?  You never had conversations with

 6    him about those people.

 7       A.   All I talked to him about was the medical service, the health care

 8    service at the KP Dom.  I had no need to talk to him about anything else.

 9    Everybody knows what war is like.  You should avoid getting involved.  The

10    best thing to do is do your job.

11            MS. KUO:  No further questions, Your Honours.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Re-examination, Mr. Bakrac?

13            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

14                          Re-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

15       Q.   Just two questions.  Mr. Dobrilovic -- excuse me, Vladicic, be so

16    kind as to tell me this:  You said about Mr. Dragovic that you had heard

17    about his leaving and my learned friend asked you questions about this.

18    Do you know whether Dragovic had departed for another country and whether

19    he had ever come back, because it has implications?

20       A.   I don't know that personally, but I heard from other people that

21    he left for Serbia and that is all I ever heard about him.  I never saw

22    him again.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  Doctor, would you now go back to looking at the

24    transcript on the screen and wait for the typing to finish before you

25    answer the question.  You came in there well before the interpreter had

Page 6334













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14    and the English transcripts.












Page 6335

 1    finished translating the question.

 2            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   And another question:  My learned friend has just asked you

 4    whether you received permission from the warden to enter.  You said you

 5    showed the guard at the gate a piece of paper.  That piece of paper which

 6    you produced, what is that?  Whose permission is it?

 7       A.   That piece of paper was the order or, rather, the decision to

 8    appoint me to service the infirmary of the KP Dom, and it was signed by

 9    the director of the hospital, Mr. Sekul Stanic.

10       Q.   So you had no permit, no piece of paper, no approval signed by

11    Milorad Krnojelac; did I understand that correctly?

12       A.   We signed back there the approval to work at the KP Dom, but

13    Milorad Krnojelac wasn't present.  There was this leader of the guards.

14    It was in that room next to the entrance.

15       Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  Can you recall about this leader of the

16    guards, as you put it.  What was his name?

17       A.   I really can't remember.

18            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions of this

19    witness, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you, sir, for having come here to give

21    evidence. You are now free to leave.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23                          [The witness withdrew]

24                          [The witness entered court]

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Would you please make the solemn declaration in the

Page 6336

 1    document that the usher hands you.

 2            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 3    whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                          WITNESS:  MILOVAN DOBRILOVIC

 5                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Sit down, please, sir.

 7            Mr. Bakrac.

 8            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  With the

 9    risk of being boring and repetitive, I have to warn the witness just as I

10    warned the previous witness not to hurry with his answer.

11                          Examined by Mr. Bakrac:

12       Q.   Mr. Dobrilovic, since both of us speak the same language and the

13    other parties in this trial need to have translation of my questions first

14    and then you may answer.  When I ask you the question, the interpreters

15    will be translating it so they won't be able to listen your answer

16    right away.  So after I ask the question, would you please make a brief

17    pause and then begin your answer.  Can we start now?

18            Sir, would you please introduce yourself?  Would you please tell

19    us your first and last name.

20            You don't need to make such a long break.  If you watch the cursor

21    on the screen, after the cursor stops after the sentence is translated,

22    then you may begin your answer.

23       A.   My name is Milovan Dobrilovic.  I'm a doctor specialist.

24       Q.   Would you please tell us when you were born and where?

25       A.   I was born in the village of Pisce on the 15th of November 1948 in

Page 6337

 1    the municipality of Pluzine in Montenegro.

 2       Q.   You say you were born in Pluzine in Montenegro.  Since when have

 3    you been living in Foca?

 4       A.   I have been living in Foca since 1957.

 5       Q.   Did you complete your elementary and secondary and high school

 6    education in Foca?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Did you go to medical school and did you complete your studies?

 9       A.   Yes, in Belgrade.

10       Q.   When did you finish medical school?

11       A.   In 1974.

12       Q.   Did you find a job as a doctor after that?

13       A.   Yes, at the Foca Medical Centre.

14       Q.   What year was that?

15       A.   That was in 1974.

16       Q.   Are you married?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Do you have children?

19       A.   Three.

20       Q.   You said that you started to work at the Foca Medical Centre in

21    1974.  Until when did you work there?

22       A.   I worked there until 1980.

23       Q.   And after that?

24       A.   After that, I moved to the Foca hospital in order to study for my

25    specialisation.

Page 6338

 1       Q.   Did you complete those studies?

 2       A.   Yes, in 1984.

 3       Q.   You are a specialist in what field?

 4       A.   In radiology.

 5       Q.   Is it true that hostilities broke out in Foca on the 8th of April

 6    1992?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Where were you at that time?

 9       A.   I was at home.

10       Q.   At that time were you employed at the Foca hospital?

11       A.   Yes, but at that time I was on vacation.

12       Q.   When did you return to work at the hospital, at the Foca hospital

13    where you were employed?

14       A.   On the 9th of April at 3.30 p.m.

15       Q.   How long did you stay in the hospital?

16       A.   For 22 days and nights.

17       Q.   For those 22 days and nights, you did not leave the hospital at

18    all?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Did you work at the hospital at that time for those 22 days?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Were doctors of Serbian and Muslim ethnicity working together at

23    that time?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Were there any civilians at the hospital?

Page 6339

 1       A.   There were a lot of civilians, both Serbs, Muslims, and Croats.

 2       Q.   Were wounded people brought to the hospital?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Of both nationalities?

 5       A.   In the beginning, only Muslims.

 6       Q.   Why was that, do you know?

 7       A.   Because there were barricades -- because there were roadblocks at

 8    Donje Polje.

 9       Q.   Who was holding -- who was manning those roadblocks?

10       A.   Muslims.

11       Q.   Besides your work at the hospital, were you also working at the KP

12    Dom in Foca?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   When did you start to work at the KP Dom?

15       A.   At the beginning of 1993.

16       Q.   Since you say that you started to work there in 1993, did any one

17    of your colleagues, doctors from the hospital, were they already working

18    at the KP Dom?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Do you know who it was?

21       A.   Dr. Cedo Dragovic, Dr. Drago Vladicic and also some others who

22    would go there or who would come only occasionally.

23       Q.   How did you come to start working there at the KP Dom at the

24    beginning of 1993?

25       A.   There was a lot of work at the Foca hospital.  Dr. Vladicic had a

Page 6340

 1    lot of work at the hospital and at the KP Dom, so the military command

 2    asked for help, and I applied to help Dr. Vladicic at the KP Dom.

 3       Q.   Who did you apply to?

 4       A.   I reported to the hospital director.

 5       Q.   Who was the director of the hospital?

 6       A.   Dr. Veljko Maric.

 7       Q.   When did Dr. Veljko Maric become the hospital director?

 8       A.   I think this was in December 1992.

 9       Q.   Who was the director of the hospital before him?

10       A.   The director general was Dr. Reuf Tafro and the hospital director

11    was Dr. Sekul Stanic.

12       Q.   Dr. Sekul Stanic was the director of the hospital until December

13    of 1992; is that true?

14       A.   Yes, until the 19th of December.

15       Q.   Why wasn't he a director after that?

16       A.   He had an accident.

17       Q.   So after that, the director was Dr. Veljko Maric and you reported

18    to him in order to help Dr. Vladicic.

19       A.   Yes, that's right.

20       Q.   How many times a week did you go to the KP Dom?

21       A.   Twice a week.

22       Q.   Did you go there on certain days?

23       A.   On Tuesdays and Fridays and sometimes I also went on other days.

24       Q.   Besides you, did a medical technician work at the KP Dom as well?

25       A.   Yes, Gojko Jokanovic.

Page 6341

 1       Q.   Did he work at the KP Dom every day?

 2       A.   Night and day.

 3       Q.   Could you please tell us what the procedure was to enter the KP

 4    Dom when you would report for work?

 5       A.   First, we would report to the main gate, to the guard.  Then the

 6    police officer on duty would escort us to the metal door.  The first two

 7    times, he would escort us all the way to the infirmary, and then later

 8    once we passed the metal door, we would make our way to the infirmary by

 9    ourselves.  I would go by myself.

10       Q.   Those first two times when you reported to the duty officer, did

11    you show him any kind of paper?

12       A.   Yes, the order from the military command and from Director Veljko

13    Maric.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Please, sir, would you watch that typing and not

15    answer that question until you see the typing stop.  You are speaking over

16    the interpreter and making it very difficult for them.

17            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   At what time did you go to KP Dom?

19       A.   I would arrive at the KP Dom at 10.00.

20       Q.   When you say 10.00, do you mean 10.00 in the morning?

21       A.   Yes, 10.00 in the morning.

22       Q.   How long did you stay at the KP Dom?  How long did you work?  Did

23    you have work hours or ...

24       A.   Until the work was done.

25       Q.   Until what year did you work at the KP Dom in this way?

Page 6342













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Page 6343

 1       A.   Since the beginning of 1993 until 1999.

 2       Q.   So from 1993 until 1999, you worked there continuously?

 3       A.   Yes, that's right.

 4       Q.   Did you continue to work according to the same schedule, twice a

 5    week on Tuesdays and Fridays?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   So nothing changed when Muslim detainees were there and when they

 8    were no longer there, when there were only Serbian prisoners there.  For

 9    all those years, you worked according to the same schedule; is that true?

10       A.   Certainly.

11       Q.   Do you know whether there was a dental office operating at the KP

12    Dom?

13       A.   Yes, Dr. Boban Kostovic would come.

14       Q.   Did anybody else work at that dental office; do you know?

15       A.   If there were any urgent cases, Dr. Sead Selimovic would work at

16    that office.  He was at the KP Dom.

17       Q.   But he wasn't working at the KP Dom, he was detained at the KP

18    Dom; is that right?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Doctor, when you would come to the infirmary, how did patients

21    come to you?  Could you please explain to us how patients were brought in;

22    were they perhaps already waiting for you?  What was the procedure that

23    you followed in examining patients?

24       A.   Police officers would go to the rooms.  They would inform the

25    detainees when the doctors were coming.  They would ask who felt sick, who

Page 6344

 1    needed to be examined, and they would apply, and that is how they would

 2    come for an examination.

 3       Q.   You say "detainees," were these Muslim detainees and Serb

 4    detainees or were they only of one ethnicity?

 5       A.   It was Serbs, Muslims, and Croats all together.

 6       Q.   Did they sometimes wait for you in the waiting room or did you

 7    come first and only then did the guards bring the patients in?

 8       A.   On several occasions, they would be waiting in the hallway or in

 9    the waiting room.

10       Q.   You conducted the examinations in the infirmary; is that right?

11       A.   Yes, certainly.

12       Q.   Who was present during these examinations?

13       A.   I was present and also the medical technician.

14       Q.   In the course of the examination and in the course of your work at

15    the KP Dom, did you differentiate between Muslims and Serb patients?

16       A.   Never.

17       Q.   Was there a pharmacy next to the infirmary?

18       A.   The pharmacy was right next to the infirmary.

19       Q.   Were there any medicines at the pharmacy?

20       A.   There were medicines, but there wasn't enough.

21       Q.   When you would prescribe certain therapy to a Muslim detainee, and

22    if there were appropriate medicines at the KP Dom pharmacy, was this

23    medicine administered?  Was it issued to the patient?

24       A.   Yes, it was issued and sometimes we would bring medicines from the

25    hospital pharmacy.

Page 6345

 1       Q.   The infirmary where you worked, did it have the necessary

 2    conditions that are necessary for such examinations?

 3       A.   Yes, it did.

 4       Q.   In the course of your work, was there occasionally any urgent case

 5    that could not be treated at the infirmary?

 6       A.   Yes, there was a number of them.  The medical technician, Gojko

 7    Jokanovic would inform us about that and as needed, either myself or

 8    Dr. Vladicic would go.

 9       Q.   If you couldn't deal with those cases at the infirmary, were these

10    patients then transferred to the hospital?

11       A.   Yes, always.

12       Q.   Your colleague already told us something about this, but could you

13    please tell us, these examinations that you conducted and the therapy that

14    you recommended, were these things recorded somewhere, was this

15    documented?

16       A.   There was a protocol.  Each patient was recorded.

17       Q.   You said that Muslims also came to you for examinations.  Did you

18    notice any traces of physical violence or abuse in these patients?

19       A.   No, I never did.

20       Q.   Did you notice serious signs of malnutrition and exhaustion while

21    these -- when these people came to you for medical examinations?

22       A.   Perhaps with one or two patients.

23       Q.   Could you please tell us if you remember who these patients were?

24       A.   These were patients who had ulcers before the war and they were

25    thin before the war.  They came to me for x-rays and these were [redacted]

Page 6346

 1    [redacted] and Sefko Kubat.

 2       Q.   Were they ever hospitalised or were they just examined as

 3    outpatients?

 4       A. [redacted] was treated at the KP Dom.  He was given a drip and

 5    ulcer medication.  And Sefko Kubat, after I examined him at the hospital,

 6    had to be sent for surgery at the hospital.

 7       Q.   Was this surgery -- was this operation carried out?

 8       A.   The surgery was performed and the patient spent seven days at the

 9    hospital.

10       Q.   And then after those seven days, what happened?

11       A.   After seven days, this patient was feeling well, and he was

12    returned to the KP Dom.

13       Q.   Do you know what happened to this person later?

14       A.   After the surgery, Sefko was doing very well.  He recovered.  He

15    wasn't vomiting.  He started to eat.  He put on a little weight and he

16    started to work with a colleague of his, [redacted], in the car mechanic

17    shop and I think he was feeling quite well for about eight months or so.

18       Q.   And what happened after eight months, do you know, you say "around

19    eight months"?

20       A.   After that, one morning at 4.30, they called me at home from the

21    KP Dom.  Sefko was taken ill.  He had major bleeding.  He was bleeding

22    through the mouth and [redacted], one of the people who were at the KP

23    Dom tried to help him but he died.  After that, I went out there and I --

24    and I noted that he died.

25       Q.   So these are those two cases that you mentioned before.  Is there

Page 6347

 1    any other case that you can remember?

 2       A.   Professor Husein, Lojo, my teacher from high school also came to

 3    me for an examination.  His brother Dzevad Lojo, then Sulejman Pejkovic, a

 4    friend of mine from before the war, [redacted], [redacted]

 5    [redacted], then [redacted], who had an inflamed chest, breast.  Then [redacted]

 6    [redacted] who had problems with his liver from the -- from before

 7    the war and also with his gallbladder.  There was also another patient, I

 8    don't remember his name.  So there were several patients.  I can't

 9    remember all of them anymore.

10       Q.   You said that all of these people came to you for medical

11    examinations, but for the record, did these people look as malnourished

12    and as exhausted as these two people that you talked about earlier?

13       A.   No, they did not.  They came to me because they were feeling

14    nervous or they had higher blood pressure.  They looked quite well.  None

15    of them looked malnourished and none of them seemed to be suffering from a

16    serious illness.

17       Q.   I would like to take advantage of your medical knowledge.  Could

18    you please tell me whether stress of any kind could lead to weight loss?

19       A.   Very rarely.

20       Q.   Did you lose any weight in 1992, 1993?

21       A.   Certainly over 10 kilos.

22       Q.   What about the patients who came to be seen by you, did they look

23    to you as if they hadn't washed for a long time?

24       A.   Not at all.

25       Q.   You explained to us the 22 days after the outbreak of

Page 6348

 1    hostilities.  After that, you spent the whole time in Foca; is that true?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Could you describe briefly the general conditions in Foca after

 4    the termination of hostilities regarding supply of food, the possibility

 5    of procuring staples?

 6       A.   Food was in very short supply, it was very scarce.  We got some

 7    aid from the Red Cross.  Hygiene in town was very bad.  In all houses, --

 8    in our house too, we didn't have electricity for long spans, sometimes for

 9    10 hours.  Sometimes there was no heating and no water.  Fire wood was

10    difficult to find and generally the conditions were very difficult.

11       Q.   During that time in 1992, 1993, did you receive a salary for your

12    work at the hospital?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Not at all or not regularly?

15       A.   Not at all.

16       Q.   I didn't ask you about being paid for your work at the KP Dom.

17    You told me you worked at the hospital, that's what I asked you about.

18       A.   We received some sort of salary irregularly and very little at the

19    hospital and for our work at the KP Dom we received nothing at all.

20       Q.   Did you know Milorad Krnojelac before the war?

21       A.   Yes, I did.  I have known him for a long time, since his sister

22    was ill 20 years ago.  I know him as a teacher who taught my own

23    children.  We socialised, and I've known him for quite a while.

24       Q.   You said you started coming to the KP Dom in 1993.  Did you see

25    him at the KP Dom?

Page 6349

 1       A.   Yes.  I met him in the hallway two or three times.

 2       Q.   Did you talk to him when you would meet?

 3       A.   Very briefly.

 4       Q.   Can you remember what you talked about?

 5       A.   I really can't remember now.

 6       Q.   Can you remember what he was wearing when you saw him at the KP

 7    Dom?

 8       A.   All I know is he was wearing civilian clothes.

 9            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

10            Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions of this

11    witness.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Ms. Kuo.

13            MS. KUO:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                          Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

15       Q.   Dr. Dobrilovic, good afternoon.

16       A.   Good afternoon.

17       Q.   You said that you applied to help your colleague, Dr. Vladicic at

18    the KP Dom, but when you were given that assignment, it was also pursuant

19    to a military order, right, even though you had applied to do it?

20       A.   I applied of my own free will and only after that came the order

21    from the military command.

22       Q.   And the previous director, Mr. Sekul Stanic, you said that he died

23    because there was an accident.  Isn't it true that he committed suicide?

24       A.   I don't know about that.

25       Q.   What was the accident that he died of?

Page 6350













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Page 6351

 1       A.   He had been taken into custody into the police station in

 2    Miljevina and what happened after that, I really don't know.

 3       Q.   Who took him into custody there?

 4       A.   I don't know.

 5       Q.   Was he a Muslim or a Serb?

 6       A.   A Serb.

 7       Q.   Do you know why he was taken into custody?

 8       A.   I don't know.

 9       Q.   Shortly after the war started in April of 1992, there were still

10    some Muslim doctors working at the hospital with you; right?

11       A.   That's true.  There was Dr. Reuf Tafro, Dr. Fadil Kucuk, Zijad

12    Ajanovic, Dr. Pilav, Dr. Ismet Causevic; there was an internist, Dr. Adil

13    Suljevic.  Perhaps there were others too but I forget.

14       Q.   Dr. Aziz Torlak was working?

15       A.   Yes, yes, Dr. Torlak, that's true.  Aziz Torlak and the ones I

16    enumerated a minute ago.

17       Q. [redacted] as well?

18       A.   He didn't work at the hospital.

19       Q.   Dr. Torlak was taken into custody at the KP Dom; right?

20       A.   I don't know.

21       Q.   When you were going to the KP Dom in 1993 onwards, you never saw

22    Dr. Torlak there?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   You never had any contact with him regarding his trying to get

25    medical help for the other Muslim detainees?

Page 6352

 1       A.   No.  The last time I contacted with him was at the hospital.

 2       Q.   That was in April of 1992; right?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   While you were at the KP Dom, you did have contact with

 5    [redacted]; right?

 6       A.   Never.

 7       Q.   You're sure about that?

 8       A.   I'm certain.

 9       Q.   Do you know if he was detained at the KP Dom?

10       A.   I heard he was, but I didn't see him myself.

11       Q.   Did you ever see Dr. Sead Selimovic at the KP Dom?

12       A.   Almost every time that I came there.

13       Q.   He was detained there because he was Muslim; right?

14       A.   He was detained.  He was at the infirmary where I was working.  He

15    sometimes did tooth extractions for prisoners.  He even extracted one of

16    my teeth when I had a problem and he extracted the tooth with the root.

17       Q.   When you were working at the KP Dom, you've told us that you

18    treated Muslims and Serbs equally.  You didn't make any distinction

19    between the Serbs who were serving civilian sentences and those who were

20    detained by the military.

21       A.   I don't know who were detained by the military and who were

22    civilian.

23       Q.   There was never any indication to you that there were some people

24    who were there because of the military and then other people who were

25    there because of civilian courts?

Page 6353

 1       A.   I don't know that.  I only heard that there were convicts from

 2    before the war at the KP Dom.  I don't know the number but I think it was

 3    between 9 and 11.

 4       Q.   But in other words, any given person, any person who came to see

 5    you, you wouldn't know if that person was there serving a term, a prison

 6    term or whether that person was there because of the military; right?  You

 7    didn't have access to that information.

 8       A.   No, I had no access to such information.

 9       Q.   And nobody ever approached you with that information to talk about

10    specific patients because that patient was under military or under

11    civilian control; right?

12       A.   Never.

13       Q.   If you needed to consult with the prison authorities, with whom

14    did you consult?

15       A.   I never talked to them.

16       Q.   You never had to speak with anybody in the prison administration

17    at all about any of the patients?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Dr. Dobrilovic, when you went to the KP Dom, you went, you treated

20    people in the infirmary; right?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   You never went into the prisoner's quarters, prisoner's rooms;

23    right?

24       A.   I didn't.

25       Q.   You never went into the isolation cells either, did you?

Page 6354

 1       A.   I did not.

 2       Q.   In order for any patients to be treated by you, they needed to be

 3    brought to you in the infirmary; right?

 4       A.   The nurse and the others informed them, going from room to room,

 5    that the doctors were coming and then they would come to the waiting room

 6    and wait there.  And whoever applied to be seen by a doctor was seen by a

 7    doctor.

 8       Q.   But when they were going room to room, you didn't accompany them;

 9    right?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Sometimes when patients came, there were guards with them; right?

12       A.   Very rarely.

13       Q.   When the guards were there, they stood right by the infirmary

14    door; right?  I would like to concentrate on the time period 1993.  Not

15    the time afterwards, but just 1993, a guard would stand by the door.

16       A.   Maybe just in the beginning outside the door, on the other side of

17    the door.

18       Q.   Approximately how many patients would you see a day?

19       A.   Sometimes 10, sometimes 15, sometimes as many as 30.  It all

20    depended on the ailment.

21       Q.   How late would you stay?  I understood you stayed until all

22    these -- all the people who were scheduled to see you were seen, but how

23    late did that mean approximately?

24       A.   I would come around 10.00, and I would stay on average for one or

25    two hours, and Dr. Vladicic would stay later because he arrived later.

Page 6355

 1       Q.   Did the two of you work simultaneously, in other words, did your

 2    time overlap or did you alternate days?

 3       A.   We worked Tuesdays and Fridays.  Those were the specified days.

 4    If not on Tuesdays then on Wednesdays and we switched as required.

 5       Q.   But are you saying then that there were times in 1993 when both

 6    you and Dr. Vladicic were at the clinic at the same time?

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's note, the witness also said

 8    that on the summons of the medical technician or the nurse, they would

 9    also arrive outside those hours.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  I was listening to the interpreter explaining

11    something there.  Yes.

12            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, the reason I am intervening is

13    that the witness said that when I was going --

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Just a moment, please.  I think you better repeat it

15    because they were so far behind that they will not get it accurately.  I'm

16    sorry, Mr. Bakrac.  Would you repeat what you said because none of it was

17    being interpreted at the time you were saying it.

18            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I understand the difficulties with

19    this witness.  I see, although I am hearing -- I'm not listening to the

20    interpretation, but the witness said that when he was going there on

21    Tuesdays, Vladicic would go there Fridays.  However, that's not what it

22    says in the transcript.  The translation is not here.  So I understand why

23    my learned friend is asking this question about whether they were going

24    there together.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, I've got the transcript --

Page 6356

 1            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm sorry.  I've got the transcript held at the

 3    particular place.  The question was: "Did the two of you work

 4    simultaneously, in other words, did your time overlap and did you

 5    alternate days?"  Answer:  "We worked Tuesdays and Fridays.  Those were

 6    the specified days.  If not on Tuesdays then on Wednesdays and we switched

 7    as required."

 8            Now, you challenge that interpretation, do you?

 9            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That is all right, Your Honours, but

10    there is a continuation which was not interpreted.  It's missing from the

11    transcript.  The continuation of that --

12            JUDGE HUNT:  That was where the interpreter was explaining it to

13    us at the time that you rose.  The interpreter said, the witness also said

14    that on the summons of the medical technician or the nurse, they would

15    also arrive outside those hours.  Now, does that complete it or do you say

16    there's something more that was said by the witness?

17            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am convinced and we

18    can hear the tape between what is in the transcript and what is -- what

19    the witness said.  Between those two sentences, there was the sentence

20    about one of them going there Tuesdays and the other one Fridays or vice

21    versa.  It was not really strict that one of them was going on Tuesdays

22    always and the other on Fridays always.  It was interchangeable.  That's

23    what the witness says.  You can hear it on the tape that's missing from

24    the transcript.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm sorry, but the answer is that, "We worked

Page 6357

 1    Tuesdays and Fridays."  That doesn't suggest alternatively, or together,

 2    or anything.  It's quite equivocal.  Now, you say there's something more

 3    than that?

 4            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was said precisely

 5    like that, but after that, the witness explained, "When I was going on

 6    Tuesdays, Vladicic went on Fridays and vice versa," and that's the

 7    sentence that the interpreters didn't catch.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Ms. Kuo, I think the best way to deal with it is

 9    ask him what he thinks he said, and with all the assistance that

10    Mr. Bakrac has given, we'll probably get that version.  But nevertheless,

11    let's get that straight on the record.

12            MS. KUO:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I think I was attempt to go do

13    that by asking him whether, in fact, it was simultaneous but let me ask it

14    perhaps more clearly.

15       Q.   You said you worked Tuesdays and Fridays.  Did you and

16    Dr. Vladicic work at the same time on any of those days or did he work

17    Tuesday, you worked Friday?

18       A.   I worked on Tuesdays, Vladicic worked Fridays, or vice versa.

19       Q.   Did you and Dr. Vladicic consult about the patients that you'd

20    seen or did you share information?

21       A.   Very frequently.

22       Q.   So if you saw a patient with a particular condition, it was likely

23    that he would know about it in case somebody came when he was on duty,

24    right, in case that same person came back?

25       A.   That always happened.  I would convey to him my opinion, and he

Page 6358

 1    would convey his opinions to me.

 2       Q.   When -- in 1993, were there times when you had to go to the field

 3    to work in the hospitals there?

 4       A.   I didn't.

 5       Q.   Now, you mentioned that you never saw what, you never saw signs of

 6    physical violence.  If you had -- if --

 7       A.   I did.

 8       Q.   I'm sorry, you did see signs of physical violence or no?

 9       A.   No.  No.  No.  I didn't.

10       Q.   If a prisoner or detainee had been injured on the KP Dom premises

11    and required medical treatment, someone could have summoned you at any

12    hour of day or night to get that treatment; right?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   That never happened in 1993 at all, did it?

15       A.   I think that's correct.  I cannot remember the dates but I think

16    that's so.

17       Q.   You mentioned Sefko Kubat and how he was taken to the hospital

18    because of his ulcer.  That treatment in the hospital was in 1994; right?

19       A.   I don't remember the dates now.  All I know that Sefko came to me

20    for an examination.  I knew him from before the war.  He had lost a lot of

21    weight both before the war and during the war.

22            He reported to me for an examination.  I went with him to our

23    hospital in Foca.  I examined him and I found a huge gastric area, very

24    enlarged, and I found that he needed urgent surgery.  So I transferred him

25    to the surgical department and that's where he underwent an operation.

Page 6359













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14    and the English transcripts.












Page 6360

 1       Q.   There was a deaf mute Muslim detainee by the name of Kunovac who

 2    in 1993 needed stomach surgery; is that right?  Did you ever learn about

 3    that?

 4       A.   I'm not aware of that.

 5       Q.   Did you know that this deaf mute detainee died in June of 1993?

 6       A.   This is the first I hear of it.

 7       Q.   Did you know Ibrahim Sandal who also died at the KP Dom?

 8       A.   Never heard of him.

 9       Q.   Did you know about Esad Hadzic who died at the KP Dom because of

10    an ulcer?

11       A.   I don't know.

12       Q.   While you were still working at the Foca hospital, this would be

13    in June of 1992, did you ever learn that Uso Dzamalija had hanged himself

14    at the KP Dom?

15       A.   I never heard of that.

16       Q.   Aside from Sefko Kubat who died in 1994, did you ever learn of

17    anybody else who had died at the KP Dom, let's concentrate on 1993?

18       A.   I didn't hear about that.

19       Q.   As part of your duties as a doctor at the KP Dom, duties that you

20    shared with Dr. Vladicic, were you also responsible for examining or

21    helping to determine the cause of death if a prisoner or detainee died at

22    the KP Dom?

23       A.   When Sefko Kubat died, I was informed.  They called me on the

24    telephone at my home.  I arrived at 5.00 in the morning.  Sefko had

25    already died in the arms of the nurse, Izet Causevic.  When I came,

Page 6361

 1    he had already bled to death.  I noted death and after that --

 2       Q.   Dr. Dobrilovic, we don't need to hear the details again about

 3    Mr. Kubat.  The question was:  Was it part of your responsibility, if a

 4    patient died, to learn about it so that you could determine a cause of

 5    death?  I know that happened with Mr. Kubat, but was it also part of your

 6    responsibility if anyone else had died?

 7       A.   I don't know.

 8            MS. KUO:  Your Honours, it's 1.00.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  We will resume at 2.30.

10                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
















Page 6362

 1                          --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Ms. Kuo.

 3            MS. KUO:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4       Q.   Dr. Dobrilovic, you are aware that there were a number of patients

 5    from the Foca hospital who were taken to the KP Dom from the hospital;

 6    right?

 7       A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

 8       Q.   In October of 1992, isn't it true that there were a number of

 9    inpatient -- people who were in the inpatient part of the hospital who

10    were taken to the KP Dom, people with asthma, chronic conditions like that

11    who required hospitalisation?

12       A.   No, I never heard of that.  I don't know.

13       Q.   So you were never taken to any prisoners quarters at the KP Dom to

14    examine patients who were too sick or frail to come and see you in the

15    infirmary; right?

16       A.   I worked at the infirmary and I think that there was no need to go

17    into the rooms.

18       Q.   And since you didn't go into the rooms, you couldn't comment on

19    the hygiene of the rooms of the prisoners; right?

20       A.   Certainly.

21       Q.   Yet in the statement that you gave to the Defence investigator on

22    the 24th of February this year, you stated in paragraph 6, "I responsibly

23    ascertain that the hygiene in KP Dom was satisfactory."  You can't say

24    that, can you, because you don't know?

25       A.   I knew about the infirmary, the rooms comprising or the room

Page 6363

 1    comprising the pharmacy, and the waiting room.  The patients would come

 2    for the examination, they were neat, they were well-dressed, they were

 3    clean.

 4       Q.   You can't comment about what was available to the -- or was not

 5    available to the detainees in their rooms in terms of blankets, heating,

 6    hot water, those kinds of things.  You have no way to comment on that, do

 7    you?

 8       A.   Certainly not.

 9       Q.   Dr. Dobrilovic, you mentioned a protocol book which listed the

10    kind of therapy you would recommend to the patients you saw.  Was that a

11    book that you took with you back to the hospital or did that remain at the

12    KP Dom?

13       A.   This book would remain at the KP Dom.

14       Q.   In whose custody did it remain?  Who did you leave it with?

15       A.   The book was always on the table at the infirmary with the medical

16    technician.

17       Q.   You made the notations in the book, right, the name of the patient

18    you saw, why the person came to see you, and what treatment you gave.

19    Those kinds of things.

20       A.   The medical technician would write in the name of the patient, and

21    I would write in the medical therapy recommended and also any medication

22    that was prescribed.

23       Q.   So when you were -- when you saw the book in the course of your

24    filling it out, there was never any notation next to the name of the

25    patient regarding that patient's status; right?  Whether the patient was a

Page 6364

 1    Muslim detainee, whether the person was there under civilian or military

 2    orders, none of those things, just the name.

 3       A.   First name and last name.

 4       Q.   Doctor, you mentioned that some of the Muslim detainees who came

 5    to speak with you described being nervous and having high blood pressure.

 6    Isn't it true that those are some symptoms of stress?

 7       A.   There wasn't a high degree of stress and there weren't many

 8    patients like that.  So there shouldn't have been major stresses, no.

 9       Q.   But my question is very specific.  In your capacity as a doctor

10    with experience, when a patient comes to you and describes being

11    nervous --

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   -- and having high blood pressure, those are symptoms that are

14    consistent with stress; right?

15       A.   That could indicate that, but it doesn't necessarily have to be

16    so.

17       Q.   And those symptoms are also consistent with a certain amount of

18    mental suffering; right?  They were complaining about suffering mentally

19    and psychologically; right?

20       A.   All such serious cases were examined by a neuropsychiatrist.

21       Q.   In 1993, did you refer any patients from the KP Dom to a

22    neuropsychologist or neuropsychiatrist?

23       A.   I think perhaps four or five, approximately.

24       Q.   Were they Muslims or Serbs; do you know?

25       A.   Muslims.

Page 6365

 1       Q.   What kind of treatment were they able to get?

 2       A.   Medication that we had at the KP Dom pharmacy and if they weren't

 3    available, then such medicines were taken from the hospital pharmacy and

 4    administered to the patients.

 5       Q.   So in other words, they didn't actually ever get to see a

 6    neuropsychiatrist, they received medicines from you; right?

 7       A.   No.  They were taken to the hospital to be examined by a

 8    neuropsychiatrist and then after this examination, we would prescribe and

 9    administer the therapy recommended by the neuropsychiatrist.

10       Q.   What was the diagnosis of the neuropsychiatrist in these cases?

11       A.   I can't remember that right now, but perhaps neurosis, something

12    like that.  There was never any serious illness that required hospital

13    treatment, only outpatient infirmary treatment.

14       Q.   What does that mean, neurosis?  That's not a psychiatric disorder,

15    right, it's something caused by a temporary situation that is extremely

16    stressful; right?

17       A.   It doesn't necessarily have to be that.

18       Q.   What did you mean by neurosis then, without giving us a very long

19    explanation?

20       A.   There can be several types of neurosis because of a serious

21    illness, there can be sexual neurosis, something like that.  But I think

22    that a neuropsychiatrist would be better qualified to explain that instead

23    of me.

24       Q.   You are familiar with symptoms of malnutrition; right?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 6366

 1       Q.   In addition to severe weight loss, there are symptoms such as

 2    swelling on the feet and hands, dizziness, blurred eyesight, dry skin,

 3    hair falling out, those are all symptoms; right?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   What are the symptoms of malnutrition then, in addition to weight

 6    loss?

 7       A.   Weight loss, vomiting, inability to walk well, and so on.

 8       Q.   But the other things I described such as blurred eyesight, that

 9    could be a lack of vitamins; right?

10       A.   That's possible because of -- due to a lack of vitamins but there

11    can be other causes as well.

12       Q.   And the dry skin and hair loss could be lack of proteins; right?

13       A.   It's possible, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that.  There

14    can be other causes caused by kidneys or the liver.

15       Q.   Did any of the patients that you examined in 1993 exhibit these

16    symptoms that I just described?

17       A.   No, certainly not.  Not even close.

18       Q.   Did you, yourself, ever, in 1993 or during the war experience

19    these symptoms?  You didn't; right?

20       A.   No, not to such an extent.  I did lose weight and I vomited, but

21    no, not to such a degree.

22       Q.   And you said you lost certainly over 10 kilos, over what period of

23    time was that?

24       A.   From the 9th of April until September 1992.

25       Q.   You didn't lose 20 kilos, did you?

Page 6367













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14    and the English transcripts.












Page 6368

 1       A.   I lost between 10 and 12 kilograms, so there could be a mistake in

 2    the translation.  I did not say 20.

 3       Q.   And the translation you are referring to is your statement that

 4    was given to Defence investigators in paragraph 7 where it says you lost

 5    about 20 kilos.  You're saying now that it was 12 not 20?

 6       A.   Yes, it's a mistake.  It's not 20, but it's between 10 and 12.

 7       Q.   You were able to eat a tin of sardines every day; right?  That was

 8    available to you.

 9       A.   Yes, because my parents sent that to me from Montenegro.  They

10    sent me cigarettes.  I used to smoke cheap shag.  My children were in

11    Montenegro so this is something that was sent for use by myself and my

12    wife.

13       Q.   You also had a decent supply of vegetables; right?  As you stated,

14    you grew it yourself.

15       A.   Yes, I did have a weekend house, but we really didn't grow that

16    much.  There was simply not enough time.

17       Q.   In your statement, you stated that the supply of vegetables was

18    better.  You meant by that that it was sufficient; right?  Not as good as

19    it was before the war but it was certainly sufficient for your nutrition?

20       A.   I don't remember that statement.

21       Q.   In paragraph 7 of your statement, you said, "To illustrate the

22    conditions, I smoked the lowest quality cigarettes and ate one tin of

23    sardines a day.  The supply of vegetables was somewhat better, however,

24    there was a general shortage of bread in the town."  So the amount of

25    vegetables was sufficient for your nutritional needs, wasn't it?

Page 6369

 1       A.   There was very little vegetables.  There was a little bread, and

 2    there was some flour and we made bread and we baked that in our ovens,

 3    wood burning ovens at

 4    home.

 5       Q.   Dr. Dobrilovic, you are familiar with Dr. Cedo Dragovic, aren't

 6    you?

 7       A.   Yes, I do.

 8       Q.   So you know that from the beginning of the war until the end of

 9    September, he was the doctor going regularly to the KP Dom; right?  Before

10    you started, he was the doctor?

11       A.   He did go there, but I don't know how long he went there.  The

12    only thing I know is that he was replaced by Dr. Vladicic.  I think this

13    was in September 1992.

14       Q.   So you don't know whether Dr. Dragovic was going regularly to the

15    KP Dom during that time or not; right?

16       A.   I'm not sure.

17       Q.   When he was replaced by Dr. Vladicic, it was because Dr. Dragovic

18    had run away to Serbia because of what he saw at the KP Dom; right?

19       A.   I don't know that.  The only thing I know is that he did leave for

20    Serbia with his wife and children.

21       Q.   There were never any consequences of Dr. Dragovic leaving his post

22    at the KP Dom to go to Serbia in the middle of the war; right?

23       A.   I really don't know.

24       Q.   Did you hear of anything happening to him?  If something had

25    happened to him, you would have heard about it?

Page 6370

 1       A.   No, not for sure.

 2       Q.   If he had been punished for leaving a post that was assigned to

 3    him by the military, certainly the other doctors would have heard about it

 4    as a kind of warning so that you wouldn't do the same thing; right?

 5    That's logical.

 6       A.   Yes, that's the way it should be.

 7       Q.   And you never heard of anything happening to him as a result of

 8    his leaving to go to Serbia; right?

 9       A.   No, certainly not.

10       Q.   Dr. Dobrilovic, you mentioned the contact that you had with

11    Milorad Krnojelac and you stated that you knew him before the war and that

12    you socialised.  You continued to socialise during the years of the war;

13    right?

14       A.   I have known Milorad Krnojelac for many years, and I said since

15    his sister was ill, that's where I know him from.  He taught maths at

16    school and he taught my children, but we never socialised.  We never

17    visited each other, but we would see each other at other places.

18       Q.   In 1993 in addition to the times that you saw Milorad Krnojelac in

19    the hallway two or three times, did you see him outside the KP Dom?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   You -- when you saw Mr. Krnojelac those two or three times, you

22    mentioned that he was wearing civilian clothes.  Do you recall if he --

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   He wasn't wearing the same clothes each time; right?  He had a

25    change of clothes.

Page 6371

 1       A.   I can't say that exactly now, but I think that every time I saw

 2    him, he was wearing civilian clothes.

 3       Q.   My question was:  Was he wearing the same civilian clothes each

 4    time you saw him?

 5       A.   I can't say that with any certainty.

 6       Q.   Those two or three times you saw Mr. Krnojelac in the hallway,

 7    what did you speak about?

 8       A.   Really, I don't remember.

 9       Q.   You met him by accident in the hallways?

10       A.   I didn't understand.

11       Q.   Did you -- did he deliberately try to seek you out to speak or did

12    you seek him out to speak, or did you just happen to meet each other by

13    accident in the hallway?

14       A.   We would just meet by accident in the hallway.

15       Q.   Which hallway was this?

16       A.   In front of the guard house, the guard post where the police

17    officers were, at the entrance to the KP Dom.

18       Q.   So you never saw Milorad Krnojelac in the infirmary; right?

19       A.   No, certainly not.

20       Q.   Did he ever invite you to visit his office?

21       A.   No, certainly not.

22       Q.   Did he ever ask you about specific patients?

23       A.   He didn't have any need to.

24       Q.   You were never in charge -- you don't know what Milorad

25    Krnojelac's position in the KP Dom was, do you?

Page 6372

 1       A.   I don't know, but I heard from others that he was the warden of

 2    the Drina Economic Unit comprising of the furniture factory, the Velecevo

 3    farm and the -- so he was in charge of that.

 4       Q.   He was in charge of the property, is that what you're trying to

 5    say, and the running of those economic units?

 6       A.   I don't know what belonged to the economic unit.  I presume the

 7    furniture factory, the metal plant, and the farm.  I don't know what else

 8    could be included as part of that unit.

 9       Q.   Did you know if the military was running the Drina Economic Unit

10    at that time?

11       A.   Yes, of course.  Oh, oh, you mean Drina.  Could you please repeat

12    the question.

13       Q.   Do you know if the military was running the Drina Economic Unit at

14    that time?

15       A.   I said that this was a unit managed by Milorad Krnojelac.  I said

16    that a little while ago.

17       Q.   Yes, but my question still remains:  Didn't the military take over

18    the Drina Economic Unit during wartime?

19       A.   I don't know.

20       Q.   You don't know at all what the relationship was between the

21    military and the Drina Economic Unit; right?

22       A.   I don't know.  I don't know.

23       Q.   You also don't know what part of the KP Dom Milorad Krnojelac was

24    or was not responsible for; right?  There should be no reason for anybody

25    to give you that information, was there?

Page 6373

 1       A.   Yes, certainly not.

 2       Q.   And yet in your statement to the investigator, you stated in

 3    paragraph 10, "It is known to me that Milorad Krnojelac was in no way

 4    responsible for the KP Dom's part surrendered to the army where captured

 5    Muslims were kept.  Instead, his duty was, according to the order of the

 6    Ministry of Justice, to manage the Economic Unit Drina and to care for the

 7    persons serving their terms in KP Dom."

 8       A.   And I claim that today.

 9       Q.   You never talked to Milorad Krnojelac at all about his work, did

10    you?

11       A.   No, certainly not.

12       Q.   You never talked to Milorad Krnojelac at all about the health of

13    civilian Serb detainees because you didn't know which of the detainees

14    were civilians and which were not; right?

15       A.   I didn't.  During the examination, the only thing I knew was who

16    was a Muslim, who was a Serb, and who was a Croat.  That is the only thing

17    that I knew.  I didn't know anything else.

18       Q.   And yet in your statement, in your final paragraph, you stated,

19    "As I was in charge of health care of the persons serving their term, on

20    two or three occasions, I talked with Milorad Krnojelac."

21       A.   I did not say that.

22            MS. KUO:  Your Honours, I would ask then the Defence counsel in

23    their statement ID D135 the final paragraph, ask them if that is indeed in

24    the statement.

25            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, the sentence that

Page 6374

 1    my learned friend read is in the statement.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.

 3            MS. KUO:  No further questions, Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Re-examination, Mr. Bakrac?

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  That's all right, I just got a Serbo-Croatian

 7    interpretation back in my earphones.

 8            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Then you understood what you meant to

 9    say.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Well ...

11                          Re-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

12       Q.   Mr. Dobrilovic, we spoke about Dr. Dragovic, Dr. Cedo Dragovic and

13    you said that you know that he went to Serbia.  Do you know whether by his

14    leaving for Serbia, he was -- how should we say it -- within the reach of

15    the military authorities of Republika Srpska or did he, in fact, go to

16    another state?

17       A.   As far as I know, he went to Serbia.

18       Q.   So the military authorities of Republika Srpska were not able to

19    do anything in view of the fact that he was on the territory of another

20    state; do you agree with that?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Did Dr. Cedo Dragovic come back to Srbinje or Republika Srpska?

23       A.   No, certainly not.

24       Q.   Do you know of any other doctors or any other people who, during

25    the war, went to Serbia from Bosnia and never came back to Bosnia?

Page 6375













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Page 6376

 1       A.   Yes, there were many people like that.

 2       Q.   You said that if there had been any consequences for Dr. Dragovic,

 3    that you would have certainly heard about that.  Why do you think you

 4    would have heard of them?

 5       A.   If I had heard anything, that would have been the truth.

 6       Q.   Do you know, while you were at the KP Dom, while you were going to

 7    the KP Dom, do you know that there was a cauldron in which water was

 8    heated?

 9       A.   I did hear of that, but I didn't see it.

10       Q.   Did you hear why this water was heated, for what purpose?

11       A.   For the detainees to wash.

12       Q.   My learned friend just asked you about your statement and what it

13    says about the position of Mr. Krnojelac.  This, concerning his position,

14    is it something you heard from other persons?

15       A.   I heard from other persons about Krnojelac and I claim that he was

16    the manager of the Drina Economic Unit and as far as I know, it comprised

17    the furniture factory and other things.  That's what I said and I maintain

18    that.

19            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  The Defence

20    has no further questions.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you, sir, for coming to give evidence here.

22    You are now free to leave.

23                          [The witness withdrew]

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Do you think we'll finish with Mr. Mijovic this

25    afternoon?

Page 6377

 1            MS. KUO:  I certainly hope so, Your Honour.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm very pleased we interposed the two doctors

 3    though.

 4            MS. KUO:  It was a good break for everybody.

 5                          [The witness entered court]

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Sit down, please, sir.  Yes, Ms. Kuo.

 7                          WITNESS:  ZORAN MIJOVIC: [Resumed]

 8                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                          Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo, continued:

10       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Mijovic.

11       A.   Good afternoon.

12       Q.   When you retired in March of 1991 [sic], do you know how many

13    prisoners

14    were in the KP Dom, approximately?

15       A.   It's a mistake.  I retired in 1999, not 1991.

16            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Just let me clarify, Your Honours.  It

17    says in the transcript 1991, but in B/C/S I heard 1999.  That's what --

18    why the witness replied as he did.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.

20            MS. KUO:

21       Q.   I'm not talking about the first time that you were at the KP Dom,

22    I mean -- I don't mean the second time when you left the KP Dom but the

23    first time before the war started.  You said that you had retired.  My

24    question was:  At that time, how many prisoners were there at KP Dom?

25       A.   At the KP Dom, there were from 400 to 450 convicted persons, as

Page 6378

 1    far as I can remember.  It's not necessarily accurate.

 2       Q.   During the time that you were at the KP Dom in 1992 working as a

 3    guard in the external security, you saw Mr. Krnojelac come to work every

 4    morning; right?

 5       A.   Mr. Krnojelac would come to work from 7.00 a.m. to 3.00 p.m.

 6       Q.   When you saw him coming in, he was wearing -- sometimes he was

 7    wearing civilian clothes; right?

 8       A.   He was wearing civilian clothes, possibly because he didn't have

 9    any uniforms because everything had burned when there was a fire and

10    sometimes he wore a combination of civilian clothes and uniform.

11       Q.   When you say him wearing civilian clothes, it wasn't always just

12    one particular outfit; right?  He had a change of clothes, even within the

13    civilian category.

14       A.   Well, it's difficult to remember now what his clothes were.  He

15    would come sometimes in a combination of clothes.  He would have civilian

16    trousers and a military shirt or the other way around.

17       Q.   What I mean is if a person during several months came to work

18    every day wearing the same suit, you'd notice that; right?  And that's not

19    what Mr. Krnojelac wore; he had different clothes that he wore.

20       A.   It's probable that he didn't have just one suit.  He may have had

21    two suits.  It's difficult to say.

22       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac left work at 3.00 and if you were working the day

23    shift, you were still on duty so you would have seen him leave sometimes

24    with Mitar Rasevic; right?

25       A.   Well, if the working hours ended at 3.00, he would probably leave

Page 6379

 1    at 3.00, not just the two of them but the other staff whose working hours

 2    ended at 3.00.

 3       Q.   But you knew that Milorad Krnojelac and Mitar Rasevic were on

 4    good, friendly terms; right?

 5       A.   Well, as for how good friends they were, I don't know.  I know

 6    that their relationship wasn't a bad one either.

 7       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac had four sons, right, who, during the time of the

 8    war were in their 20s?

 9       A.   It's true that he had four sons.  I knew them because they owned a

10    cafe in the city which I frequented.

11       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac's sons had access to enter the KP Dom; right?

12       A.   I don't remember any one of them coming to the KP Dom.

13       Q.   But had they come, they wouldn't be among the people that you

14    would turn back, would they?

15       A.   They didn't come.  They probably didn't need to.

16       Q.   I'm asking you, sir, if they were among the list of people who

17    would have been authorised.  Whether they came or not, they had the

18    ability to come, the authority.

19       A.   Well, they couldn't have entered the prison.  They could have

20    visited their father in the room where he was working though.

21       Q.   Soldiers had access to the KP Dom; right?

22       A.   As for soldiers' access to the KP Dom, they couldn't have entered

23    without special permission from the military command.

24       Q.   Soldiers were allowed to enter if they were passing by; right?

25       A.   Soldiers could not enter the compound of the KP Dom as we called

Page 6380

 1    it.  They could only come as far as the entrance to the administrative

 2    building.

 3       Q.   Are you saying that soldiers were not allowed inside the KP Dom

 4    even to eat?

 5       A.   No.  They couldn't get in.  Only those people who were employed

 6    there, who were working there could go in there to have something to eat.

 7       Q.   Soldiers had access to the administrative building; right?

 8       A.   If they had a lasse passe from the military command, if they had

 9    any business in the administration of the Dom, then maybe.

10       Q.   And sometimes the military police also came to the administration

11    building and were allowed in; right?

12       A.   The military police could get into the administrative building

13    only, because they had business there although I don't know what their

14    business was.

15       Q.   If part of their business entailed seeing a detainee, they would

16    give a list of the detainees to the guards and the guards would go bring

17    the detainees to the administrative building; right?

18       A.   They couldn't do that unless they had permission from the military

19    command.

20       Q.   If they came with that permission, this is the procedure, they

21    would have a guard go into the compound and bring the detainee to them in

22    the administrative building; right?

23       A.   As far as I'm concerned, I'm not familiar with that procedure

24    because I wasn't able to see it.  I wasn't inside the building.  My job

25    was outside the building.  I couldn't leave my post.  And I can't tell you

Page 6381

 1    about things that I don't know.

 2       Q.   In addition to the military police, there were also civilian

 3    police interrogators who came to the administrative building including

 4    Starovic, Vladicic and Koprivica; right?  They were civilian police.

 5       A.   As far as that is concerned, the inspectors that you mentioned did

 6    come to the administrative building but what they did inside, I cannot

 7    tell you.  I know they entered the administrative building.

 8       Q.   They came almost every day to interrogate the detainees; right?

 9       A.   I can't tell you whether they did it every day because I wasn't on

10    my post every day.  I worked days -- I worked there only one in four days

11    in daytime.

12       Q.   When you were working those one in four days during the daytime,

13    these civilian police inspectors came to interrogate detainees; right?

14       A.   I have said already they came and entered the building, but what

15    they did, an inspector will never tell anyone about what he does.

16       Q.   They came -- I won't ask you then what they did, but they came

17    every time you were on duty during the daytime; right?

18       A.   Well, I can't remember if it was every day, but they always came

19    during daytime.

20       Q.   When you worked -- there were times when politicians would come

21    during the daytime to visit the KP Dom; right?

22       A.   When it was my shift to be on duty, I never saw a single

23    politician going into the administrative building of the KP Dom.

24       Q.   Did you ever see any military officers going into the KP Dom?

25       A.   As for military officers, they too didn't come to the KP Dom

Page 6382

 1    because they had other business.

 2       Q.   When you worked at night, and I know you didn't work every night,

 3    but when you worked at night, did you ever see somebody come from the city

 4    bakery to use the KP Dom bakery?

 5       A.   Well, the town bakery couldn't operate because of power cuts,

 6    and --

 7       Q.   Sir, please, did you ever see anybody inside the KP Dom using the

 8    bakery at night?

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  Anybody from the town bakery.

10            MS. KUO:  The town bakery, yes.  And we don't need to hear about

11    the town bakery.  The only question was whether anybody used the KP Dom

12    bakery at night from the outside.

13       A.   Well, since the bakery is located at the front of the KP Dom where

14    freight vehicles came in, the bakers would enter through the gate, the

15    bakery was right there, and a man was given the job of just opening the

16    door for them and taking them there.  They never entered through the main

17    gate to what we call the compound of the KP Dom, and I couldn't see them.

18    Because I had no access.

19            If you saw that sketch yesterday, you remember where -- which

20    stretch I covered.

21       Q.   So your answer is, "Yes, they did come to use the bakery at

22    night"?

23       A.   They came so that there could be bread.

24       Q.   But you never saw it; is that what you're saying?  Because that

25    wasn't part of your patrol.

Page 6383













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Page 6384

 1       A.   The part where they came in was not within my range of view.

 2    Another man came to open the door for them and led them in.

 3       Q.   Sir, yesterday, you talked about five days when you were not at

 4    the KP Dom, and those five days happened to be around St. Vita's day,

 5    1992.  St. Vita's day is around the 28th of June; right?

 6       A.   No, St. Vita's day was on the 28th.

 7       Q.   Okay, the 28th of June.  St. Vita's day is not a holiday when

 8    families traditionally gather; right?

 9       A.   No.  St. Vita's day is what I remember this period by.  It just

10    helps me orient myself in time.  I took some days of leave then and I used

11    those days as I already described.

12       Q.   Where did your parents live, the place where you visited during

13    those few days?

14       A.   The place where I was born is Pejkovici village which you can see

15    from my details.  My mother and father still live there.  My father is 73

16    years old.  They have two cows and they were not physically able to work

17    and --

18       Q.   Sir, how far away is that from Foca?

19       A.   If you want me to tell you exactly, it's 22 kilometres.

20       Q.   Mitar Rasevic was able to approve your leave without seeking

21    outside authorisation; right?

22       A.   Well, I did approach Mitar Rasevic and how he got this approval

23    and through whom, I don't know.  He just came back to me with the answer

24    that my request was approved and that I could leave for a couple of days.

25       Q.   When you came back from your few days of leave, it's natural that

Page 6385

 1    people would tell you or you would hear about things that happened during

 2    your absence; right?

 3       A.   No, there was no need to.  The less you know, the better for you.

 4       Q.   So you wouldn't know if, a few days before or on St. Vita's day

 5    itself or even a few days afterwards, you wouldn't know if five or six

 6    Muslim detainees were beaten at night, shot, and then thrown to the river

 7    Drina; right?  You wouldn't be able to say whether that did or did not

 8    happen.

 9       A.   As far as I'm concerned, I don't know anything about it and I

10    can't tell you anything about it because I have no knowledge of that.

11       Q.   There was a yellow Volkswagen that sometimes came to the KP Dom

12    which belonged to the Dragan Nikolic Unit, right, the military police?

13       A.   I couldn't recall now what the vehicles were and to whom they

14    belonged.  It's been ten years.  I really can't remember those vehicles.

15       Q.   Well, yesterday you spoke in great detail about a Zastava Poly

16    and that is the same car as a Zastava Caddy; right?

17       A.   As for the Poly, it was owned by the KP Dom housekeeping.  It

18    was for housekeeping purposes and it was there while I was working.

19    That's the only thing I remember and I remember the colour.

20       Q.   Mr. Mijovic, I'm asking you because I don't know that much about

21    cars.  Is the Zastava Poly the same as the Zastava Caddy?

22       A.   It's true that it's the same vehicle because somebody says Zastava

23    Poly and someone says -- other people say Zastava Caddy.  In France and

24    Germany, it's called Polo and in other country, we call it Caddy.

25       Q.   This vehicle that you described, the Zastava that was being used

Page 6386

 1    for KP Dom housekeeping -- Mr. Vasic is on his feet.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  I didn't hear you, Mr. Vasic.

 3            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour, I just wanted

 4    to let my learned friend finish her question.  On page 82, 81, sorry, line

 5    25, and page 82, there is a mistake in the transcript because the witness

 6    said that in France and Germany, this vehicle is referred to as a Caddy

 7    and in our country it's called a Polo or a Poly and the transcript

 8    reflects it the other way around.

 9            Page 82 lines 1 and 2.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  You're saying that what the witness said was they

11    call it a Poly or a Polo in his country, but in France and Germany it's

12    called a Caddy.  Is that what you're saying?

13            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  That's what the

14    witness said.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, do you want to clear it up?  I'm not sure what

16    the importance of it all is.  As you said, you know nothing about cars and

17    I confess I know nothing about them.  But you -- if you it is important

18    you better clear it up, Ms. Kuo.

19            MS. KUO:  I think Mr. Vasic would prefer a clean record so I will

20    have to clean it up.

21       Q.   In which country is this car called a Pole?

22       A.   That vehicle is called Poly in our country and it is produced by

23    the Zastava factory.  Similar vehicles produced in France and Germany are

24    called Caddy.

25       Q.   Thank you.  Now, the vehicle that you described as being used for

Page 6387

 1    KP Dom housekeeping, did you ever see blood on it?

 2       A.   I never drove it and I could never see any blood on it.  I never

 3    even unlocked the door of that vehicle and I couldn't see anything of the

 4    kind.

 5       Q.   Yesterday, you spoke about a disciplinary committee that operated

 6    before the war.  During the war, did the same -- was there also a

 7    disciplinary committee?

 8       A.   Well, you know what the state of war is like.  There are no

 9    disciplinary committees.  War is a turmoil which wipes away everything

10    nice and leaves only things which are bad.

11       Q.   During the summer when you were working there in 1992, there was a

12    lawyer there named Milan Vuljevic who was running the legal department;

13    right?

14       A.   Milan Vuljevic was there when I came there.  For how long he

15    worked, I couldn't tell you and I don't know when he left the KP Dom.

16       Q.   You said that you weren't sure about a disciplinary committee,

17    actually you said that there was no disciplinary committee during the

18    wartime.  If there had been a violation of the rules as you knew it, for

19    instance, if a guard had beaten a prisoner, to whom would you report that

20    violation or how would it work; do you know?

21       A.   Any kind of violation would be subject to the military command and

22    the military command had its own disciplinary measures.  I don't know what

23    they are called but all of this would go through the army usually.

24       Q.   Did you know -- again, this is hypothetical.  If you saw a

25    violation, whom would you report it to?  Or if somebody had an allegation

Page 6388

 1    against you, whom would you expect to hear from?

 2       A.   From the military commander because you would report to him for

 3    everything that happened.  You would be responsible to him.

 4       Q.   Who was the military commander?

 5       A.   It was the tactical group.  They changed so I couldn't really

 6    say.  They were changed very quickly.  So really, I can't remember now who

 7    was in charge when, and I would make a mistake if I said that such and

 8    such a person was in charge at that time.  It would just be -- I would be

 9    wrong.

10       Q.   The military commander and the tactical group were not at the KP

11    Dom, were they?

12       A.   It's true that their headquarters were not at the KP Dom.  KP Dom

13    was one thing and they were stationed in a different place.  It wasn't

14    really known where they were.

15       Q.   Who, at the KP Dom, represented the military command?

16       A.   I don't know if there was a representative of the military command

17    there.  We who worked there, we would go to Mitar Rasevic because he was

18    in charge of us.

19       Q.   If you saw somebody damaging property at the KP Dom, whom would

20    you report that to?

21       A.   Damaging the property of the KP Dom, the warden was in charge of

22    the property.  He was there to protect the property.

23       Q.   But the warden wasn't there to protect the people, just the

24    property.

25       A.   The warden was there to protect people who were convicted

Page 6389

 1    before -- who were sentenced before and who were serving their sentences

 2    and he was there and he was in charge to make sure that if somebody

 3    violated the rules or hurt one of those people, then they would answer to

 4    him.

 5       Q.   You've told us about a particular incident when Milorad Krnojelac

 6    asked you to take some friends of his to Montenegro and you stated the

 7    reason you were asked to do this was that it was dangerous at that time to

 8    make such an operation.  It was dangerous at that time because Muslims

 9    were being driven out or being forced out of Foca or arrested and taken to

10    KP Dom; right?

11       A.   First of all, I didn't say that it was an incident.  This is what

12    I would like to object to, the choice of that word.

13       Q.   What would you call it then?

14       A.   I said that I did a favour to Milorad Krnojelac who asked me to do

15    what I've already described before.

16       Q.   All right then.  You did this favour for Mr. Krnojelac because it

17    was dangerous at that time for Muslims in Foca; right?  Dangerous was your

18    own word.

19       A.   I -- yesterday, I used the words that they were not allowed to

20    leave the territory of the town of Foca.

21       Q.   You said you never used the word dangerous to describe what it was

22    like for Muslims at that time?

23       A.   I said that it was dangerous for me to undertake something like

24    that.

25       Q.   Muslims were not -- there was a military order that Muslims were

Page 6390

 1    not allowed to leave Foca and the Muslims that were in Foca were detained

 2    at KP Dom or rounded up or kept under house arrest; right?

 3       A.   Yes, that's right.

 4       Q.   The woman you mentioned, Desanka Bogdanovic, was she Muslim?

 5       A.   No, Desanka Bogdanovic was born in Montenegro.  She lived and was

 6    a teacher in Foca.  I think she retired there.  She was from Montenegro.

 7    She was a Montenegrin of the orthodox faith.

 8       Q.   Why couldn't she leave Foca by herself then?  Why did she need to

 9    be secretly driven out?

10       A.   Desanka Bogdanovic didn't have any problems in leaving.  I asked

11    her or I told her to come with me so that it would be easier for us to

12    pass through the territory with the other two women.

13       Q.   So you asked Ms. Bogdanovic to go with you to protect you?

14       A.   No.  I don't think of it as protection.  It was simply easier when

15    she was there beside me.

16       Q.   Why was it easier?

17       A.   A person simply feels more comfortable when there's somebody else

18    there.  Something could happen and it wouldn't turn out to be good, so it

19    was better that she was there as well.

20       Q.   That morning when you went to pick up the two Muslim women,

21    Ms. Bogdanovic's husband was there as well; right?

22       A.   It's true that her husband was there as well.  We call him Bela

23    but I don't know what his real name is.

24       Q.   And Bela didn't accompany you to the Montenegrin border, did he?

25       A.   Bela couldn't go because there was no more room in the car.  There

Page 6391













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Page 6392

 1    were already four of us so nobody else could get into the car.

 2       Q.   When you drove the car with Desanka Bogdanovic and the two Muslim

 3    women to the board border, you left all three of them there; right.  You

 4    didn't return with Mrs. Bogdanovic, did you?

 5       A.   Mrs. Bogdanovic continued on her way because she had relatives in

 6    Montenegro.

 7       Q.   Milorad Krnojelac must have trusted you very much if he asked you

 8    to do him this favour which was in violation of a military order; right?

 9       A.   Well, he knows how much he trusted me, and I accepted to do that.

10    He probably trusted me completely.

11       Q.   And Mr. Krnojelac had the possibility to arrange this kind of

12    secret escape; right?

13       A.   I don't know whether he had that possibility.  He asked me to do

14    that favour and I accepted and that is what I did.  But I don't know

15    whether he had the possibility or the option to do something like that.

16       Q.   But what I mean is he arranged for this car for you to drive with

17    petrol in it.  He arranged to have these people meet early in the

18    morning.  And he arranged for this to happen so that these particular

19    Muslim friends of his could reach safety; right?  He's the one who made

20    those arrangements?

21       A.   It's true that Milorad prepared everything.  I simply came in the

22    morning.  It's very close to me.  I only needed to cross the street.  So I

23    came at the time we agreed upon and as soon as I arrived and they said

24    their goodbyes, we left.  We departed, and he went -- I don't know where

25    he went.  I left, and he stayed in front of the building after which I

Page 6393

 1    assumed he went on his way.

 2       Q.   You stated that this was at 6.30 in the morning.  Was it a day

 3    when you were on shift, on day shift or had you just come off a night

 4    shift or were you not working?

 5       A.   I really can't remember.  It probably was a day when I wasn't

 6    working.

 7       Q.   But it was a day when Milorad Krnojelac would have had to go to KP

 8    Dom, I mean it's right after 6.30 when he saw you off.  He would have to

 9    go to KP Dom to start his work at 7.00; right?

10       A.   Yes, he probably went straight to work.

11       Q.   The red Yugo that Milorad Krnojelac arranged for you to drive was

12    his personal car, was it?

13       A.   Yes, it's true that it was his personal car.

14       Q.   But he also used it for KP Dom business, did he not?

15       A.   There was no other vehicles, and if he needed it and he didn't

16    want to go on foot, then he would use his own car because the cars that

17    were owned by the KP Dom before while it was still under the control of

18    the Green Berets were all taken to Gorazde.

19       Q.   How many hours did it take you to get to Scepan Polje?

20       A.   It's about 30 kilometres to Scepan Polje, about 6 kilometres is

21    asphalt road and everything else is macadam road.  There were roadblocks,

22    ambushes, perhaps mines, so I think we actually reached the border

23    sometime around 9.20.

24       Q.   And how long did it take you to return?

25       A.   I really couldn't tell you exactly.  It probably took the same

Page 6394

 1    amount of time, the return took just as long as the departure.

 2       Q.   How much time did you spend having a drink with your acquaintances

 3    at the border?

 4       A.   I can't remember that.  Once I settled them into the bus and I

 5    waited for the bus to leave for Podgorica, so I wasn't really watching the

 6    time.

 7       Q.   Approximately how long, an hour, a few minutes?

 8       A.   Well, it wasn't a few minutes.  If you meet your former colleagues

 9    and your acquaintances, then you sit down for a while and you don't check

10    the time.

11       Q.   You said that it was around 9.20 when you got there.  You didn't

12    have lunch with your colleagues, did you?

13       A.   No, I didn't have lunch.  This is only a small cafe on the

14    border.  There was nothing there before, but once the border was set up,

15    then there was a small little restaurant where you could have a drink.

16       Q.   So you took three hours.  You arrived at the border around 9.20,

17    so let's say three hours to get there.  You spent some time getting the

18    people on the bus, having a drink with your friends.  About an hour, two

19    hours possibly; is that right?  At most?

20       A.   No, one hour at the most.  It was one hour at the most.

21       Q.   So you left at 10.30 and it took you three hours to return which

22    means you would have arrived back in Foca at around 1.30; right?

23       A.   When I came back from Scepan Polje, because my house where my

24    parents lived is 6 kilometres away from Scepan Polje so I dropped by to

25    see how they were doing.  So it was on the way.  It was convenient to drop

Page 6395

 1    by and visit my parents.

 2       Q.   You didn't mention anything yesterday about visiting your parents,

 3    sir.  How long did you say you visited your parents that day?

 4       A.   I didn't think there was any need to talk about that.  I just

 5    dropped by to visit my parents, but that doesn't mean anything.  It's of

 6    no significance, so that's what I thought.

 7       Q.   But today you think it's significant so tell us how long you

 8    stayed there?

 9       A.   An hour or two to have coffee with them, to talk with them, to see

10    what they were doing.  That's how long it took.

11       Q.   Sir, you knew when you went on this secret mission that

12    Mr. Krnojelac was very eager that it go well and he told you that when you

13    got back, immediately to report to him; right?

14       A.   Yes, he said to look for him, to find him as soon as I came back.

15       Q.   Yet you stayed to have drinks with your buddies, and then today,

16    for the first time, you also mentioned that you stopped for one or two

17    hours to see your parents.

18       A.   I already told you why I didn't think there was any need to

19    mention that I dropped by there.  When I took the passengers and settled

20    them into the bus, I finished my task and this was important to me.  After

21    that, I wasn't really checking the time.  So I felt that it was all right

22    to drop by and visit my parents.

23       Q.   Sir, in your statement to the investigator, 28th of February this

24    year, paragraph 6, you stated, "Upon returning to Foca, I took the car

25    back to Mico Krnojelac who had told me to come see him immediately after

Page 6396

 1    the return as he was very concerned if the trip would be okay particularly

 2    because several days before the said trip, the Green Berets had murdered

 3    on that part of the road a married couple and two more persons."

 4            So Mr. Krnojelac was very concerned that you report to him

 5    immediately and that's what you did; right?  You didn't stop to spend a

 6    few hours with your parents.  You went back immediately, didn't you?

 7       A.   I did drop by to visit my parents.  That's true.  You can't

 8    dispute that.  How much time that took, I can't remember because I wasn't

 9    really interested in remembering that.

10       Q.   If you had gone straight back to Foca, you would have arrived at

11    Foca at 1.30 in the afternoon and you would have to go directly to the KP

12    Dom where Mr. Krnojelac was working because it's still during working

13    hours.  So that's where you went to see Mr. Krnojelac at the KP Dom;

14    right?

15       A.   Well, I said that I returned the car to Mr. Krnojelac and I told

16    you where.  I returned the car to him at the Hotel Zelengora where he was

17    living.

18       Q.   Sir, there was no reason for you to go to the Hotel Zelengora

19    because Mr. Krnojelac was still working when you came back to Foca?

20       A.   I am sure that I did not make it to the KP Dom during the work

21    hours.  I wasn't really looking at my watch.  I wasn't following how much

22    time passed.  But I know that I arrived there, I returned after the --

23    after work hours.

24       Q.   So if you had gone to the Hotel Zelengora, you would have known

25    that that was being used at the time as an army command post; right?

Page 6397

 1    There were a lot of soldiers there, staying there?

 2       A.   The Hotel Zelengora was used to accommodate persons who had lost

 3    their houses.  All those whose houses were burned and destroyed stayed

 4    there as well as persons who had fled Gorazde so they were all put up in

 5    the rooms at the Hotel Zelengora and the hotel was used for accommodation

 6    for such people, among whom was also Mr. Krnojelac.

 7       Q.   Are you saying that there was no soldiers staying at the Hotel

 8    Zelengora?

 9       A.   There were no soldiers at the Hotel Zelengora.  The hotel wasn't

10    operating as a restaurant.  There was a soup kitchen at the hotel at that

11    time and people who were without homes or who had fled from somewhere else

12    were put up there.

13       Q.   Mr. Mijovic, you testified yesterday that you worked at the farm

14    from the middle of July 1992 onward and that your supervisor there was

15    Novica Mojovic.  Mr. Mojovic was killed by a mine in Ustikolina; right?

16       A.   Yes, it's true that Mr. Novica Mojovic stepped on a mine and where

17    he was killed together with three or four people on their way to

18    Ustikolina where there was a sheep farm.  So on the way there, they

19    stepped or came across a land mine which was placed there by the Green

20    Berets.  All four of them were killed, and three convicted persons who

21    were with them were seriously wounded.

22       Q.   When was that?

23       A.   In 1993, perhaps it was March but I'm not really sure.  It was

24    in -- at the beginning of 1993.  February, March, sometime then.

25       Q.   Mr. Mojovic was the director of the farm when he was killed;

Page 6398

 1    right?

 2       A.   The farm never had a director.  The farm is a work unit that

 3    really cannot have a director according to the regulations.

 4       Q.   He was the head of the farm; right?

 5       A.   The head of the farm.

 6       Q.   Mr. Mojovic's supervisor would have been Milorad Krnojelac; right?

 7       A.   Yes.  It's true that Milorad Krnojelac was the warden also of the

 8    farm, and the monitoring of the economic unit of the farm was carried out

 9    by the KP Dom warden because at that time, there was no director of the

10    economic unit.

11       Q.   My question was:  Mr. Mojovic as head of the farm was being

12    supervised by Milorad Krnojelac; right?

13       A.   Yes, it's true that he was supervised by Milorad Krnojelac.

14    Novica submitted the report on the operation of the farm to Mr. Milorad

15    Krnojelac.

16       Q.   After Mr. Novica Mojovic died, he was replaced by Radojica

17    Tesevic; right?

18       A.   I think he was replaced on a temporary basis by veterinarian

19    Nikola Perisic.

20       Q.   But at some time Mr. Tesevic also worked at the farm; right?

21       A.   Mr. Tesevic worked from May 1992 at the farm.  His duties were to

22    obtain food for the hens and the cows so he was dealing with feed

23    purchasing for the animals at the farm.  When Novica was there as head, he

24    was also doing that same job.

25       Q.   So in other words, Mr. Tesevic, during the war, was being

Page 6399













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Page 6400

 1    supervised by Milorad Krnojelac; right?

 2       A.   That's correct.

 3            MS. KUO:  No further questions.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Any re-examination?

 5            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 6                          Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

 7       Q.   Mr. Mijovic, today in response to a question by my learned friend,

 8    whether you saw Milorad Krnojelac every day on his way to and from work,

 9    you replied that you did used to see him, but then you also said that you

10    worked every fourth day in the day shift.  I wanted to ask you whether

11    there were any days that you worked but that you did not see Milorad

12    Krnojelac go into or leave the KP Dom?  This was when you were working

13    during the day.

14       A.   I said that I worked every fourth day but I can't remember whether

15    I saw him every day or not.  This is very difficult to say, but I did say

16    that I would be working the first shift every fourth day.  Perhaps I did

17    see him coming every morning, but it would be very difficult to remember

18    something like that after ten years whether he came to work every day or

19    not.  It's very difficult to remember that and this is not so important so

20    that a person would need to remember that.

21       Q.   Thank you.  In response to a question by my learned friend whether

22    soldiers could enter the compound only on tasks or under orders of the

23    military command, my question is as follows:  After completing such a

24    task, were they able to enter the compound and after completing their

25    tasks, were they able to have a meal there?  Were they able to eat at the

Page 6401

 1    KP Dom?  Did you understand the question?

 2       A.   Yes, and I answered this question as follows:  Soldiers could not

 3    enter the compound ever to eat, nor did they have a right to enter.  They

 4    could only come into the entrance or the entrance part of the

 5    administrative building if they had any orders from the military command.

 6       Q.   If some soldiers were on an assignment and if the military command

 7    approved or allowed them to eat at the KP Dom kitchen, would they be

 8    admitted inside in order to eat?

 9       A.   I said that it was forbidden, generally, but perhaps under special

10    orders it was possible.  I don't know if there was such a case, but

11    perhaps a special command would permit somebody to do something even

12    though it was generally forbidden.  So it's possible but I don't know of

13    something like that ever happened.

14            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Vasic, so that we can at least forewarn the

16    interpreters and the court reporters, how long do you think you will be?

17            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have four more

18    questions.  I don't think I will take more than until ten past 4.00.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, how are we going from the interpreters and

20    court reporters point of view, can we take another ten minutes?

21            Yes, you proceed.

22            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I thank the interpreters and the court

23    reporters and you, Your Honour, of course.

24       Q.   Mr. Mijovic, you were saying that at the time when -- at the

25    request of Milorad Krnojelac you took out two Muslim women out of Foca,

Page 6402

 1    that it was forbidden to Muslims to leave Foca.  Was there a curfew as

 2    well restricting movement across town?

 3       A.   As far as I can remember, the curfew had been introduced, and it

 4    was over at 6.00 a.m.

 5       Q.   This curfew, did it apply to the entire population of Foca town?

 6       A.   The curfew applied to all the inhabitants of Foca.  They were not

 7    allowed to move during the curfew regardless of their ethnicity.

 8       Q.   You talked about the work of the economic unit and you said the

 9    fisheries at Jelec had been destroyed.  Do you know if the fish were

10    transferred to another location, at least a part of them, after the

11    destruction of the fisheries?

12       A.   Since the fish farm was about 10 kilometres away from Miljevina in

13    a place called Jelec, not exactly in the centre of Jelec but a few

14    kilometres away, during the hostilities in Jelec between the two armies,

15    the fish happened to be released from the pond.  The troops came across

16    that place and released them.  They were not transferred anywhere, and

17    they were not taken elsewhere to be sold.

18       Q.   Do you know that there was a fish pond, fish farm at Bukovice

19    where the spawn was saved?

20       A.   The fish farm at Bukovice was started, I don't remember in which

21    year, but it was financed by the American government for the spawn of the

22    most beautiful fish that existed in the River Drina.  It was only started

23    but it was never finished more than 30 per cent.

24            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises for not knowing the

25    exact name of the fish.

Page 6403

 1            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Just another question, Your Honour, if

 2    I may.

 3       Q.   Do you know whether, within the framework of the KP Dom, there was

 4    an employee by the name of Aleksandar Dobnik?

 5       A.   I know that he worked there.  Aleksandar Dobnik is a friend of

 6    mine and a neighbour, and he was also a colleague so I know him well.

 7       Q.   What was his ethnicity?

 8       A.   Aleksandar Dobnik is a Croat.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  And just another thing.  In Exhibit P3 which is a list

10    of employees of the KP Dom in item 42, it says Josip Simovic and his

11    workplace is indicated as fisheries in Bukovice.  Do you have any

12    knowledge whether this fish pond which you just mentioned started working,

13    in fact, or remained unfinished as you said or you have no knowledge of

14    that?

15       A.   Maybe -- could you tell me what his position was?

16       Q.   It doesn't say.  It just says fisheries at Bukovice.

17       A.   During the construction of that fish farm, a person is appointed

18    to be responsible for supervising the works on the facility.  The

19    construction was started and it was finished perhaps 30 per cent, not more

20    than that.  It was never completed.

21            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Your Honour.  The Defence

22    has no more re-examination.  It's ten past 4.00 already.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you, sir, for giving evidence.  You are free

24    to leave.

25            Before you are free to leave, Mr. Bakrac, we need to know from you

Page 6404













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14    and the English transcripts.












Page 6405

 1    what is the date of the videolink that you seek?

 2            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for

 3    bringing about a situation where we have to discuss this at ten past 4.00

 4    but I didn't want to interrupt the witness.  It is our intention to make

 5    it on the Wednesday and Thursday of the 3rd and 4th of June to have this

 6    videolink.  I think that would be the second week after we continue.

 7                          [The witness withdrew]

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  The 3rd of June is a Sunday to start with.  If we

 9    have it on the Wednesday and the Thursday, which are the 6th and the 7th,

10    we avoid the holiday.  Yes, the 4th of June is a holiday.  The 3rd of June

11    is Sunday.

12            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really don't mind,

13    the interpreters must be very tired, but I did say the 6th and 7th of June

14    although the transcript doesn't reflect it.  Of course we are to blame for

15    this mistake of the interpreters.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Very well then.  The order will be made accordingly

17    that the videolink be arranged for those dates.

18            The Trial Chamber is very grateful to the interpreters and to the

19    court reporters for allowing us to finish off the last of the witnesses

20    today and we will resume again on Monday, the 28th of May at 9.30.

21                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.12 p.m., to

22                          be reconvened on Monday the 28th day of May, 2001,

23                          at 9.30 a.m.