Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6709

 1                          Thursday, 31 May 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Call the case, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  This is the case number

 8    IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Vasic, is this witness going to say something

10    that he didn't say in the Kunarac case?

11            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  This witness will say something

12    that he did not say in the Kunarac case or, rather, we will not ask him

13    questions about matters that he testified to in the Kunarac case.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Would it not be simpler to take advantage of the Rule

15    which provides that the transcript of his evidence in that other case,

16    suitably redacted, can be tendered and then you ask him anything in

17    addition that you want to ask him and the Prosecution asks him anything in

18    addition to what they want to ask him?

19            We're running a long way behind on the original estimate.  It

20    seems to me that, seeing that we've got it all in writing now, that it

21    would be an enormous waste of time to take him through it again.  You can

22    ask him anything in addition you want to, but efficiency, I think, demands

23    we get through this witness in the easiest possible way.  Your client

24    doesn't suffer in any way and neither does the Prosecution.

25            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully agree and the

Page 6710

 1    Defence did not plan to ask him about matters he testified to in the

 2    Kunarac case.  We will only ask him about circumstances directly related

 3    to this case.

 4            As for the transcript, the Defence tenders the transcript --

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  It will have to be redacted to take his name off it

 6    and such things, anything that identifies him because, as I recall, he did

 7    not have a pseudonym there, but that could be done in time.  But if you

 8    take it through -- take him through anything you want to say in addition

 9    to that evidence and the Prosecution can ask him any questions that it

10    wants to ask him in addition to what's in that evidence, we'll save an

11    enormous amount of time.

12            Has the Prosecution got any problem with that,

13    Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

14            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, Your Honour.  We actually have the

15    transcript here for everybody, and it's -- he had a pseudonym at the

16    time.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  He didn't have the same protective measures.  That's

18    right.

19            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  And so it could be done right now.  We

20    could give this document to the Defence so they can tender it.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  But in case he's worried that he may be in some way

22    tied in, we'd better redact even the pseudonym that he had there and

23    substitute "Witness B" here.

24            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  That will have to be done.  We don't have

25    that done, of course.

Page 6711

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, if that's agreed, and if we may say so, that

 2    will certainly save us a lot of time, that transcript will be

 3    Exhibit D153.  It won't be released until it's been fully redacted.

 4            You proceed now, Mr. Vasic.  You're obviously very familiar with

 5    what's in the transcript.  You take him to what you want to add to it.

 6                          WITNESS:  WITNESS B [Resumed]

 7                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                          Examined by Mr. Vasic:  [Continued]

10       Q.   Good morning, sir.  Yesterday, we talked about the injuries you

11    sustained in a traffic accident and about how you were sent to do an X-ray

12    and you had to go to town A to do that.  Did you go to have this CAT

13    scan?

14            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

15    switch on the transcript, the monitor for the witness.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  The transcript is on.  I can see it reflected in the

17    window, actually.

18            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   Sir, did you hear my question?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   I asked you whether you went to have this CAT scan.

22       A.   No, I said I did not go to town A.

23       Q.   Why didn't you go?

24       A.   Because the situation was such that it was impossible to reach

25    town A.

Page 6712

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Vasic, remember to turn off your microphone while

 2    he's answering.  He's speaking so quietly it probably hasn't been

 3    conveyed, but you'd better make sure you switch it off.

 4            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Obviously I

 5    have forgotten.

 6       Q.   Sir, is it the case that you were unable to go there because

 7    hostilities broke out?

 8       A.   Well, fighting hadn't started, but there were checkpoints.  There

 9    was a lot of traffic on the road or a lot of trouble.  You couldn't go to

10    every town, and that was the reason.

11       Q.   And when fighting started in town C, where were you?

12       A.   I was in town C.

13       Q.   What were you doing then?

14       A.   Well, because I was injured, I was in bed.  I was at home.

15       Q.   And how long did you stay in bed in your home?

16       A.   Well, for some 20 days or so.

17       Q.   And did they come to your home to mobilise you?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   What did you do then?

20       A.   I went with my brother-in-law to the doctor.  He took me there,

21    and the doctor gave me a certificate, saying I was exempt from the army.

22    When I got back from the doctor, my brother-in-law took this certificate

23    to the school centre where there was a man who was mobilising people for

24    the army and there --

25       Q.   If I understood you correctly, you were declared unfit because of

Page 6713

 1    your injury.

 2       A.   They sent me to a medical board, a military medical board.  In a

 3    few days, they sent me to this medical board, and they gave me a temporary

 4    release from the army.

 5       Q.   After a certain time, did you recover, and what did you do when

 6    you recovered?

 7       A.   Well, when I recovered, the fighting in town had stopped.  Then I

 8    started smuggling, selling things on the black market; cigarettes, coffee,

 9    food, small amounts.

10       Q.   Why didn't you do your job?

11       A.   Well, I couldn't do my job because nothing was being done and

12    there was no construction going on, and all the other construction workers

13    had been mobilised.

14       Q.   You told us that you smuggled cigarettes, coffee, food.  How was

15    town supplied?  How was it that you could do this?

16       A.   Well, there was nothing there, and a few of us smugglers, there

17    were more women and men, managed to get some things through from

18    Montenegro.  Supplies in the town was zero.

19       Q.   And did you do this throughout the war?

20       A.   Yes.  Yes.

21       Q.   Do you know the Krnojelac family?

22       A.   Yes, I know the Krnojelac family.  The first one I met was Mico's

23    son Spomenko [redacted].  He was a student then, and he

24    got a job through the student work agency in [redacted].

25       Q.   Before the hostilities broke out, did Spomenko Krnojelac own a

Page 6714

 1    cafe in [redacted]?

 2       A.   Yes.  Before the war, they managed to open a cafe where I helped

 3    him out and it was a good business, this cafe.

 4       Q.   Did you frequent this cafe?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Can you tell us who the guests of this cafe were as regards ethnic

 7    background?

 8       A.   Well, as regards the patrons, they were of all nationalities.  Pop

 9    music was played, mostly foreign, and Zdravko Colic, Kemal Monteno,

10    Indexi, Tifa, they were local bands and singers.

11       Q.   Did you visit this cafe immediately before hostilities broke out?

12       A.   Yes, I did, but not very often because I was in the field working,

13    but whenever I had an opportunity, I dropped in.

14       Q.   Did you ever hear anyone singing or playing nationalist songs

15    there?

16       A.   No.  I'm certain of that.

17       Q.   When you were there the last few times, did you see Muslims coming

18    in?

19       A.   Oh, yes, of course.  They were people who came in almost every

20    evening.

21       Q.   At the end of 1992, in the autumn, did you meet Krnojelac in town

22    C?

23       A.   Yes, we met at the market where I was selling goods.

24       Q.   Did you talk then, and if you did, what did you talk about?

25       A.   He asked me whether I could come to his house to see something

Page 6715













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Page 6716

 1    there, as a mason, and he told me that he had received some help from some

 2    committee to repair his house.  And he asked me to tell him whether a roof

 3    could be erected as the house was or whether something else had to be done

 4    to it first.  I told him I would come in two or three days' time, and I

 5    think that on the third day, I went there between 8.00 and 9.00 a.m.

 6            When I arrived there, I saw a few people at the building, clearing

 7    up the remains of the roof which had been burnt and rubble from the

 8    walls.  I told him that he could put a roof on the walls as they were

 9    without any problems, of course when the remaining parts of the old roof,

10    which had been burnt, were removed.

11       Q.   For the record, I have to ask you - it seems that not everything

12    is in the record - you mentioned the help the family Krnojelac had

13    received.  From whom was it?

14       A.   They said that the executive committee of the municipality had

15    done something to help them.

16       Q.   Apart from this time, did you visit the house at any other time?

17       A.   Yes, two or three times more.

18       Q.   Why did you go there two or three times more?

19       A.   Well, because the first time I was there, I saw a group of people

20    who had come to work there.  I knew two of them.  They were Muslims from

21    our town.  One of them was Zanga, a plumber, and other one was Polani.  I

22    knew him because he owned a cafe in town C.

23       Q.   Sir, I asked you why you went to the house.  Did you supervise the

24    work or what?

25       A.   No, I didn't supervise it.  I just came to make suggestions, if

Page 6717

 1    necessary, to give advice, not to supervise.  I had no right to

 2    supervise.  I don't have the papers I need to supervise other people's

 3    work.

 4       Q.   Did you ask how come Zanga and Polani were there?

 5       A.   Yes, I did.  It seems to me that they said that the army had made

 6    that possible for the people from KP Dom to do that.

 7       Q.   Was that part of the assistance provided by the executive

 8    committee of the municipality for the repair of the house?

 9       A.   Yes, yes.

10       Q.   Did you talk to any of those men of Muslim nationality on that

11    occasion?

12       A.   Yes, on one occasion I did, and that was when the lady brought us

13    lunch.  So I talked to Polani a bit because I knew him well.  I often went

14    to his cafe.

15       Q.   Do you remember what you talked about?

16       A.   Well --

17       Q.   Wait.  Wait for me to finish my question and wait for it to be

18    interpreted and then -- otherwise, your voice will be heard and then there

19    will be no sense for the protective measures to be in place.  So please

20    follow the cursor on the monitor.

21       A.   Well, we didn't talk much, but he did tell me that -- that Madam

22    Slavica was looking after them well, bringing them good food, fruit

23    juices.  He even told me that one occasion he had beer.

24       Q.   Did he tell you how the members of the Krnojelac family were

25    treating him?

Page 6718

 1       A.   Well, he told me they were treating him well, and he even asked me

 2    whether he would be sent to do more work of that kind.

 3       Q.   Did you know at that time what Mr. Milorad Krnojelac was doing?

 4       A.   Well, I heard that -- that Milorad was working in KP Dom, that he

 5    was in charge of the Drina Economic Unit, mainly cattle breeding, the

 6    pigs, the cows, the hens.

 7       Q.   And how did you hear this and from whom?

 8       A.   I heard this from my customers who came to buy coffee and

 9    cigarettes from me.  And they used to call him Mekinjar because he went

10    around looking for cattle feed for the pigs, the cows, the chickens.

11       Q.   You said they called him Mekinjar.  Can you explain this?

12       A.   Well, the people around the town who had pigs and chickens could

13    not buy bran anywhere and bran is cattle feed, and 50, 30 kilogram sacks

14    of bran.  The only way they could get supplies of bran was through the

15    Drina organisation at Velecevo, at Brioni, because that was the only place

16    where cattle feed arrived.  So "Mekinjar" would mean bran man.

17       Q.   After the end of the war, did you continue doing your trade?

18       A.   Yes.  Immediately after the end of the war, I started my own

19    business and I continued working, doing the same job I had done before the

20    war.

21       Q.   Did you go often and do you still often go to towns A and B?

22       A.   Since I used to work for an international humanitarian

23    organisation from [redacted], and their headquarters were in

24    [redacted],

25    [redacted].

Page 6719

 1       Q.   Sir, I would only like to ask you to use the letters we have

 2    pre-designated instead of the real place names.  During your stay in those

 3    cities and towns, who did you contact?

 4       A.   I apologise.  I hope this will go better from now on.

 5       Q.   Can you tell me, when you went to those towns, who did you

 6    contact?

 7       A.   Well, since I had a large circle of acquaintances and friends in

 8    my own home town among Muslims, or Bosniaks as they're called nowadays,

 9    and they are mainly in towns A and B nowadays, I meet with them very often

10    there.  At my colleagues', number one, and in various cafes.

11       Q.   Do the people who, in 1992/1993, were detained in the KP Dom Foca,

12    people of Muslim ethnicity, also join this company?

13       A.   Well, a colleague of mine told me that those people do come, and I

14    may have seen some of them.  And he always kept telling me what these

15    people say about Mr. Krnojelac, Mico Krnojelac.

16       Q.   So what is it that you heard?  What do these people say about

17    Milorad Krnojelac?

18       A.   Well, those people say, as my colleague number one conveyed to me,

19    that this man is not guilty of anything, that he had no say in anything.

20    And they always kept mentioning some crazy Savo Todovic, who I personally

21    don't know.  Their main topic of conversation is the so-called Black

22    Savo.

23       Q.   When you came to testify here, have you brought any statements?

24       A.   Well, you see, this colleague number one of mine, talking to me

25    about all those people who had been to the KP Dom, thought that he was

Page 6720













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Page 6721

 1    getting on my nerves with all these positive stories about Mico, and at

 2    one point, I asked him if he could give me something in writing.  And he

 3    did write something.

 4            And then I asked a number of other friends whom I see whether all

 5    those rumours were true, whether anyone was willing to put something in

 6    writing, and so it happens that I have four letters or statements,

 7    whatever you want to call them.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Vasic, would you look at line 23 of the

 9    transcript from page 10.  Is that a correct description of the stories?

10    "... thought that he was getting on my nerves with all these positive

11    stories about Mico."  Is that what he said?

12            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Well, the witness said that this

13    colleague, that he thought that this colleague was trying to irritate him,

14    to get on his nerves with all these positive stories about Mico.  But I

15    will ask the witness again what he really meant to say.

16       Q.   Sir, why did you ask this friend number one to put in writing what

17    he was saying?

18       A.   I asked him to put it in writing because I thought it was their

19    intention to irritate me, to get on my nerves, that they were pulling my

20    leg by telling me all this.  So I said, "Can you put anything in

21    writing?"  And colleague number one immediately said, "Yes, I will."

22       Q.   Do you have these statements with you?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Can you show them to us?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 6722

 1       Q.   Can you tell us anything about the content of these statements?

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  What's your attitude to this, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

 3            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we object against it.  We do not

 4    think this kind of whatever we will call it is reliable at all, and it is

 5    not a written statement that we could produce under 92 bis or any other.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  I was about to look for 94.  Oh, of course it's been

 7    deleted, 94 ter.  Because it certainly wouldn't get in under 92 bis unless

 8    it's taken in accordance with the requirements of that Rule.

 9            Well, now, if it's objected to, Mr. Vasic, how can we take in this

10    statement?  You see, there used to be a Rule which enabled statements to

11    be given by way of corroboration, but that's been replaced by

12    Rule 92 bis.  And I won't worry about the particular factors to be taken

13    into account, it's the technical problem that I have with it.  There must

14    be a declaration, and it has to be witnessed by a person authorised to

15    witness such a declaration in accordance with the law and procedure of a

16    state or presiding officer appointed by the Registrar of the Tribunal for

17    that purpose.

18            So just on the technicalities of it, it is out, I would have

19    thought, but I'm not sure that it would be important in that -- insofar as

20    it purports to deal with the acts and conduct of the accused.  But in any

21    event, if it merely goes to his character, it would go in provided that

22    the technicalities are observed.

23            What is the nature of this?  That's why I asked you whether the

24    transcript was correct.  I thought he'd said a different word or I thought

25    the interpreters had used a different word.  But is it something that goes

Page 6723

 1    simply to your client's character, that he's the sort of person that would

 2    not have done the things that were alleged against him?

 3            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] This statement, as far as I am aware,

 4    goes to the character of this -- of my client, to other people's opinion

 5    of him, and in part, it also relates to what was said about whether such a

 6    man could ever have had a say in anything at the KP Dom.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, the first part of it as to his character, I

 8    should think the Trial Chamber would normally encourage people to put that

 9    sort of material in writing, but the second part of it is of some vitality

10    in the issues of this case, and a document which has no sanction imposed

11    for not telling the truth would certainly not be admissible.

12            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask the

13    witness whether he has perhaps the telephone numbers or if there is any

14    other way in which my learned colleagues from the Prosecution could verify

15    with these people the truthfulness of what is in these statements before

16    this is tendered.

17            The problems with the statements of these people is that they

18    would generally not like it to become known in [redacted] that they had

19    written this.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  You, too, should be using the letters on the

21    pseudonym sheet, having remonstrated with the witness for not doing so.

22    So that will be redacted.

23            But, Mr. Vasic, I think you have to draw a very careful

24    distinction.  I'm not sure whether the Prosecution would think that it

25    worthy to challenge such statements merely so far as they go to the

Page 6724

 1    character of your client.  They may.  I would be surprised if they did,

 2    but if they did, we'll deal with it.  But the other material is of grave

 3    importance in this case.  How can you expect the Prosecution to go

 4    checking up on what somebody is prepared to put in writing but not to come

 5    along and say or even to go through the procedures of this Rule whereby

 6    there is some sanction to be imposed that they can be prosecuted for

 7    swearing if what they say is untrue?  That's the whole purpose of

 8    Rule 92 bis, to try to put documents in writing where they are not greatly

 9    in dispute or where they can be accepted as being reliable.  But to have a

10    piece of paper that they've written out and which you're asking this

11    witness to read to us doesn't even come close to complying with the

12    general requirements.

13            Certainly I think that it might be a good idea, if there can be

14    some procedure of talking to these people, you should speak to the witness

15    about, and we would give you permission to do so.  I don't think we need

16    to get their telephone numbers written into the transcript, for example.

17    But what I am anxious to do is to point out to you, unless you've got a

18    very good argument, there's no way in which we would allow into evidence

19    statements of this nature, if they're objected to, which go to a vital

20    issue in this case about what your client's powers were at the KP Dom.

21            Now, if you want to proceed in relation to the character evidence,

22    I'll ask the Prosecution what their attitude is about that.

23            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I am just

24    looking at these papers since the witness has just brought this with him

25    and the Defence counsel had no time to review it in detail.  I'm just

Page 6725













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Page 6726

 1    trying to see whether the entire wording of the statement is related to

 2    the character of my client or at least if there is just one statement

 3    which is completely related to that subject only.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  Just one moment.

 5                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, assuming there is some

 7    material in this that goes solely to credit, would there be any formal

 8    objection to it?

 9            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we think he should simply file,

10    following the 92 bis procedure, file a written statement, and if it is

11    only to the character of the accused, we would not object.  But it looks

12    to me that it's more to Savo Todovic's role and Mr. Krnojelac's role in

13    the prison.  That is what we fear it is.  And we don't know.  We haven't

14    seen it either, so --

15            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm rather surprised, if I may say so, that it's been

16    put up without counsel having read it, but let's assume for the moment

17    that there is material in it which goes only to character.  Such evidence

18    should still normally be given in a statement which is under the sanction

19    of the procedures laid down in Rule 92 bis, but character evidence is a

20    matter which, if it comes in a written statement, it's often tendered.  It

21    doesn't really ever get cross-examined upon in any way.

22            It would be, I think, a very long process for the Defence to have

23    to go through the written statement Rules.  You see, we have to have

24    somebody appointed by the Registrar or they have to go before a Judge down

25    in Bosnia.  It will take a considerable amount of time, if it only just

Page 6727

 1    goes to character, I'm saying.

 2            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we would not request that.  But

 3    what we would request is to see the form of the written document in

 4    translation and see what it is, and then we can say, yes, it's only

 5    character evidence, let it get in.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  That's fair enough, if I may say so.

 7            Well, now, look, Mr. Vasic, I understand that you've only just

 8    been given this, but may I suggest that you, when you have some time,

 9    extract the particular matters, let's have them translated.  I think we

10    can't impose the obligations on Ms. Dicklich every time to have to

11    translate for the Prosecution so that they can see what it is in relation

12    to character that you want to put in and there may be no objection to

13    those statements being read onto the record in some way.

14            But in relation to the other matters, the Trial Chamber is not

15    going to allow you to put them in in that way.  If you want to call those

16    witnesses, by all means, but it's not going to go in in a double hearsay

17    movement like this.

18            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Well, thank you, Your Honour.

19    The Defence will certainly have this translated.  We actually submitted

20    this to translation yesterday, and as soon as we get the translation,

21    we'll hand it over to our learned friends.

22            I have looked through the first two statements, and I don't see

23    any facts other than those related to Mr. Krnojelac's character.  Perhaps

24    we could get identification numbers for these documents.  After my learned

25    friend has received the translation, we may see and discuss what to do

Page 6728

 1    with this part that relates to Mr. Krnojelac's character.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  How many documents have you got?

 3            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I have four statements.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  They can be marked for identification 9, 10, 11, and

 5    12.  That's not the IDD series.  And then -- if they go into evidence,

 6    they will be given fresh numbers.  Yes.  Now, can you proceed with

 7    something else?

 8            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Sir, I have

 9    no further questions on this subject.  I have only one more question to

10    ask of this witness.

11       Q.   Do you know who owns the establishment where the Cafe --

12            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the name of the

13    cafe.

14            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

15       Q.  -- is now located in town C?

16       A.   Yes, I know it is owned by the Slovenian company called Planika.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Vasic, the interpreters didn't hear the name of

18    the cafe.

19            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  It's an

20    Italian word, Uno.

21       Q.   Do you know who owns this cafe in the establishment which you say

22    is owned by the Slovenian company called Planika?

23       A.   Yes.  The cafe is run by Bozidar Krnojelac, a son of Mico's.

24       Q.   Was this establishment ever owned by Mr. Senad Sahimpasic

25    nicknamed Saja?

Page 6729

 1       A.   No.

 2            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  Your Honours, the

 3    Defence has no further questions.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.

 5            Cross-examination, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 6            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                          Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

 8       Q.   Good morning, Witness.

 9       A.   Good morning.

10       Q.   You mentioned that you visited the Cafe Gong before the war and

11    that you didn't hear any nationalistic songs in there.  You stopped going

12    there after the accident because you were sick; right?

13       A.   When I had this accident in late March and the war started on the

14    8th of April, the Gong didn't work from the 8th of April.  That's

15    precisely the period when I was injured and didn't move around.

16       Q.   I asked you if you stopped going there because you were sick, and

17    that's yes; right?  In March 1992, you stopped going there so you can't

18    tell us anything about the first --

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And nowadays do you go to the Cafe Gong?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Do you also go to the Cafe Uno?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   You are friends with Spomenko and Bozidar; right?

25       A.   Well, just a little, piccolo.

Page 6730













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14    and the English transcripts.












Page 6731

 1       Q.   Spomenko and Bozidar and, in particular, Bozidar, were they

 2    members of the Bosnian Serb army during the war?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Bozidar, was he a member of the Dragan Nikolic unit; do you know

 5    that?

 6       A.   I don't know about that.  I don't know where he was.

 7       Q.   You saw the house of Mr. Krnojelac destroyed during the war, but

 8    you didn't see how it happened; right?

 9       A.   No.  No, I didn't.

10       Q.   You said that you, later on, went several times to this house and

11    you said you started to go there in autumn 1992.  And these other times,

12    when was it?  During which period did you go to the house?

13       A.   I'm afraid I didn't understand the question.

14       Q.   You said in autumn 1992 you went to the house first to check with

15    Mr. Krnojelac if the roof could be put on, on these walls, and you said

16    afterwards, you went there several -- on several occasions.  When, which

17    months?

18       A.   Yes.  Well, months --

19            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  Did I hear

20    this well?  I -- it says in the transcript that he was there to check with

21    Mr. Krnojelac.  The witness wasn't there with Mr. Krnojelac.  It may have

22    been one -- a member of his family, but I'm afraid if we put in

23    Mr. Krnojelac, it might be understood as referring to the witness -- to

24    the client.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  It was some other Mr. Krnojelac, wasn't it, from

Page 6732

 1    memory.  I'm just looking for it in the transcript.

 2            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I actually thought it was Mr. Milorad

 3    Krnojelac.

 4       Q.   When you went -- you told us that first he talked to you and said

 5    please have a look?

 6       A.   No.  No.  It was Spomenko, his son.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  That's certainly my memory of it.  I'll check it, if

 8    you like.  Anyway, you've got an answer.

 9            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I've got an answer.

10       Q.   So when you were on the marketplace and you were first approached,

11    it was Spomenko?

12       A.   Yes, Spomenko.

13       Q.   And when you went to the house on the other occasions, it was

14    always Spomenko that you met there and talked to?

15       A.   Yes, it was always Spomenko.

16            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the help of the usher, I would like to

17    show the witness the photo, Defence Exhibit B1.

18       Q.   Sir ... [B/C/S interpretation] ...

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Does it look like this nowadays?

21       A.   No, not nowadays.

22       Q.   What is different?  Is it now all fixed?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   So what is -- what is different?

25       A.   The difference is here on the facade, this part of the facade has

Page 6733

 1    been finished, and this part has been finished.  And the woodwork has been

 2    put on this floor.  So the facade has been finished here, and the

 3    woodwork, and this part has been covered.

 4       Q.   So it has further been worked on; right?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Were you involved --

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if I can just get it recorded, at

 8    pages 5 and 6 of today's transcript, the witness clearly did say it was

 9    the son, Spomenko Krnojelac, to whom he spoke.

10            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11       Q.   Did you work -- did you continue to work -- to get involved in

12    this construction work and are you still helping on the house?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Does the Krnojelac family live now in the house?

15       A.   Yes.

16            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the help of the usher, I would now like

17    to show the photo B4, Defence photograph B4.

18       Q.   Can you tell us where in the house - this is now the back side -

19    is the Cafe Gong?  Is it visible on this photo?

20       A.   Here.

21            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The witness was showing at the wooden complex

22    in front of the main house with the three small roofs.  Thank you.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   During the war, Milorad Krnojelac and his family lived in an

25    apartment in town; do you know that?

Page 6734

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   It was the apartment of Dr. Ismet Causevic, right, a Muslim who

 3    had left the town; is that correct?

 4       A.   Not Causevic but Sosevic.

 5       Q.   And Bozidar Krnojelac also lived in an apartment that before the

 6    war had belonged to a Muslim; right?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Do you know the name of the former owner?

 9       A.   I don't know his name exactly, but I do know it was a lady who was

10    the owner.

11       Q.   How did he get this apartment?  Who gave it to him; do you know

12    that?

13       A.   The government authorities, the executive committee.

14       Q.   Did you help to renovate this apartment of Bozidar?

15       A.   No, not me.  I didn't.

16       Q.   Are you aware that this apartment was painted by detainees, Muslim

17    detainees from the KP Dom?

18       A.   I didn't understand your question.  What do you mean?

19       Q.   Are you aware, do you know that this apartment of Bozidar was

20    painted and renovated by detainees from the KP Dom?  Are you aware of

21    this?

22       A.   No, I'm not aware of it.

23       Q.   You mentioned that Bozidar runs this Cafe Uno.  Does he also run a

24    grocery shop or a little shop in town?

25       A.   No.  There was a grocery shop there which has now been turned into

Page 6735













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14    and the English transcripts.












Page 6736

 1    a cafe.

 2       Q.   The Cafe Uno or what?

 3       A.   Where Cafe Uno is now, there used to be a greengrocer's.  Now

 4    there is no longer a greengrocer's there but instead the Cafe Uno.

 5       Q.   And the greengrocery store, that was run by Saja Sahimpasic before

 6    the war, right?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Who ran it?

 9       A.   It was being adapted.  It was being reconstructed.  And as far as

10    I know, Saja leased it from the Slovenian company Planika, and he wanted

11    to open a bank.  However, this was interrupted by the war, and some people

12    from Slovenia have turned up now who are trying to sell the place or even

13    to open a footwear shop.

14       Q.   Let's return to Mr. Milorad Krnojelac's house.  You were there on

15    several occasions, and you have described whom you saw there and to whom

16    you talked.  While you were there, materials were brought to the -- to the

17    construction site, right?  You were present when --

18       A.   Yes.  I wasn't present when materials were brought but only on one

19    occasion when something was being loaded, rubble was being loaded.

20       Q.   And the driver was from the KP Dom and the truck as well, right?

21       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes, from KP Dom.

22       Q.   When -- what did these workers actually do when you saw them?  The

23    Muslim detainees on the construction site, what did they do?

24       A.   They were removing part of the roof that had been burnt, beams

25    that had not been burnt completely, and they were also removing the

Page 6737

 1    plaster from the walls that had become separated from the walls.

 2       Q.   And afterwards, when the roof was actually built, were you also

 3    occasionally at the house?

 4       A.   No.  It was locked up and nobody came there.

 5       Q.   Did you see that detainees from the KP Dom made the staircase in

 6    the house?  Are you aware of this?

 7       A.   No, I'm not aware of this.

 8       Q.   Spomenko Krnojelac, he guarded the Muslim detainees while they

 9    worked on the house, right?

10       A.   Well, yes.  He was the only one who was there wearing a military

11    uniform.

12       Q.   Did he have a weapon?

13       A.   Well, as for long weapons, no, but whether he had a pistol or not,

14    I really can't say.  Maybe he did and maybe he didn't.  You couldn't see

15    it, but whether he had it on him, I wouldn't know.

16       Q.   You yourself did not speak with Mr. Krnojelac about his role at

17    the KP Dom, right?

18       A.   Well, no.  I know him only a little.

19       Q.   And you never went to the KP Dom during the war yourself, right?

20       A.   No, never, either before the war or during the war.

21       Q.   And you said already that you did not know Savo Todovic at all,

22    right?

23       A.   No.  No, I didn't.

24       Q.   So you can't tell us anything about who was in which position

25    there?

Page 6738

 1       A.   No, I really can't.

 2       Q.   You mentioned that the food was a problem during the war, and you

 3    yourself actually smuggled food.  But the Krnojelacs had food; right?

 4    They even had beer.

 5       A.   I didn't go to their house, so I don't know.

 6       Q.   But you told us that Mr. Polani told you they got food from

 7    Mrs. Krnojelac.  They even got beer there.

 8       A.   Yes, that's correct.  They had potato pie.

 9       Q.   He bought the food, right?  The Krnojelac family could buy food

10    and had access to food in town?

11       A.   Well, you see, there was very little food on the market.  A

12    peasant would bring some potatoes, some beans to sell.  I would bring some

13    cigarettes, some coffee, and it was very expensive.  A bar of cigarettes

14    was a hundred marks.

15       Q.   I'm not very accustomed to the habits of the Serbs in Bosnia and

16    Herzegovina, but I assume that when you work at a house, the owner of the

17    house gives you food.  It's a custom to feed the workers on your house,

18    right?

19       A.   Yes.  That was the custom before the war.  It was a good custom.

20    It's gone now.  We're poor now.

21       Q.   But still, if you have people working in your place, visitors, you

22    feed them, right?  It's a custom in your country.

23       A.   Yes.  Yes.

24            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No further questions, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Any re-examination, Mr. Vasic?

Page 6739

 1            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                          Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

 3       Q.   To my learned friend's question, you replied that the Muslim

 4    prisoners who were working there told you they received food.  What did

 5    they say?  Was it extra food, special food?

 6       A.   No.  I said it was pie.  It was potato pie.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Sir, do remember to pause before you commence your

 8    answer.  It's very easy, once you're speaking the same language, to forget

 9    it.

10       A.   I apologise.

11            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   Are you aware of or do you know whether the Krnojelac family has

13    some land in the village of Bunovi, where they come from?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Do you know whether this land, at the relevant time, was farmed,

16    whether someone from the family worked on the land?

17       A.   Well, yes.  Any land that was available was cultivated; not only

18    their land but all land.  It was the only way we could survive.

19       Q.   Thank you, sir.

20            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the help of the usher, I would

21    like to show the witness Exhibit D1.

22       Q.   Sir, to my learned friend's question, you showed us some

23    differences in relation to the way the house looks in this photograph and

24    the way it looks now.  I would like to ask you whether the house looked

25    like this in 1992 when you were there, when they were working on it?

Page 6740













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14    and the English transcripts.












Page 6741

 1       A.   No.  It didn't look like this because there was no roof.  There

 2    was no roof then.  They were just putting on the roof.  This was all burnt

 3    and there was no scaffolding.

 4       Q.   Do you know whether, after the roof was erected, as you said, by

 5    persons of Muslim nationality, whether anything else was done to the house

 6    later, after the end of the war?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   After this further work was done, did the house then look the way

 9    it looks in this photograph?

10       A.   Could you repeat the question?

11       Q.   After the completion of that work, did the house then look the way

12    it looks in the photograph, not the way it looks today?

13       A.   I didn't understand the question.

14       Q.   You told us that when you were there, Muslim prisoners were

15    putting up the roof, and to my question, you said that after the war,

16    other work was done on the house.  I'm saying after what was done

17    immediately after the war, did the house then look the way it looks in

18    this photograph?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And after this, after this photograph was taken, was further work

21    done on the house to make it habitable?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And after the roof was put up in 1992, was anyone able to live in

24    the house?

25       A.   No.

Page 6742

 1       Q.   Was it unfit to live in then?

 2       A.   Oh, yes, completely unfit.

 3       Q.   Thank you, sir.

 4            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, the Defence has no

 5    further questions.  Thank you.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you, sir, for coming here to give evidence and

 7    for the evidence which you've given.  You are now free to leave.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9                          [The witness withdrew]

10            JUDGE HUNT:  We'll get the next witness, please.

11                          [The witness entered court]

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Sir, would you make the solemn declaration in the

13    document which the usher is showing you.

14            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

15    whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                          WITNESS:  ZARKO VUKOVIC

17                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Sit down, please, sir.

19            Yes, Mr. Vasic.

20            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21                          Examined by Mr. Vasic:

22       Q.   Good day, sir.  Do you hear me?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Can you tell us your full name, please.

25       A.   Zarko Vukovic.

Page 6743

 1       Q.   Sir, before I begin the examination-in-chief, I would like to tell

 2    you that because we speak the same language, could you please pause after

 3    my question for the question to be interpreted so that everybody else in

 4    the courtroom can understand what I'm asking you and what you are

 5    replying.

 6            I would like to ask you to look at the monitor in front of you

 7    where you have a transcript, and to follow the cursor and when you see

 8    that the sentence is complete, to begin your answer only then.  Did you

 9    understand this?

10       A.   I think I did.

11       Q.   Thank you.  Would you tell us your date of birth and place of

12    birth.

13       A.   The 17th of February 1943 in Dragojevic in Foca in

14    Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15       Q.   Are you married?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Do you have any children?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Did you serve in the army and where?

20       A.   Yes, in Batajnica, near Belgrade.

21       Q.   Were you ever convicted?

22       A.   No.  No.

23       Q.   Would you tell us what schools you completed and what your

24    occupation is.

25       A.   The College of Natural Sciences and Mathematics in Sarajevo,

Page 6744

 1    mathematics and physics.

 2       Q.   And what is your profession?

 3       A.   Mathematics and physics.

 4       Q.   You are a teacher?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Could you tell us when you became employed and where.

 7       A.   I got a job in 1964 in Miljevina.

 8       Q.   And after this?

 9       A.   After this, I went to work in the Veselin Maslesa Primary School

10    in Foca.

11       Q.   And until when were you employed in the Veselin Maslesa School in

12    Foca?

13       A.   Up to 1989.

14            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know if I can see

15    the clock very well from here, but it seems to me it's 11.00.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  It certainly is, Mr. Vasic, and you're right on the

17    dot.  We'll adjourn until 11.30.

18                          --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

19                          --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Vasic.

21            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22       Q.   Sir, before the break we were discussing the fact that in the

23    primary school called Veselin Maslesa you worked until the year 1989.

24    Tell me, while you were working there, were you the headmaster, the

25    director?

Page 6745













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14    and the English transcripts.












Page 6746

 1       A.   Yes.  I was its director from 1978 to 1989.

 2       Q.   After leaving the school in 1989, where did you work?

 3       A.   I was the director of the work organisation of education for

 4    Foca.

 5       Q.   Until when were you director for this work organisation for

 6    education in Foca?

 7       A.   From 1989 to 1991.

 8       Q.   And after 1991?

 9       A.   I was director of the joint venture --

10            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the name of the

11    joint venture.  Sorry.  "In Brdo.  In Brdo."

12            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   The interpreters did not hear the name of the joint venture.

14    Would you please repeat?

15       A.   It was the joint venture called Uport, U-p-o-r-t.

16       Q.   What was the business of this joint venture?

17       A.   Those were joint enterprises in sports, entertainment, recreation,

18    and tourism.

19       Q.   Can you tell me, how long have you known Milorad Krnojelac?

20       A.   I have known him since the seventh grade of primary school.

21       Q.   Did you attend the same schools together even later, after primary

22    school?

23       A.   Yes, we did, until the second year of high school, when we -- when

24    he switched to teachers' college.

25       Q.   Did you meet up with him later, working in the same school?

Page 6747

 1       A.   In 1973, he came to work in the primary school of Veselin Maslesa

 2    where I had already been working.

 3       Q.   What was the ethnic composition of the primary school Veselin

 4    Maslesa where the two of you worked?

 5       A.   It was mixed.  At one point it was even equal, 14 Serbs, 14

 6    Montenegrins, and 14 Muslims.

 7       Q.   What about the ethnic composition of the pupils?

 8       A.   We never kept a record of that.  In my estimate, the Serb and

 9    Montenegrin children were slightly in the majority.

10       Q.   Can you tell us, what was the reputation of Milorad Krnojelac in

11    the school where you worked together?

12       A.   All the staff and even all the pupils thought well of Milorad as

13    an honest man, a man of integrity, a good teacher, and a communicative

14    man.

15       Q.   Apart from working in the same school, did you see each other

16    outside working hours?

17       A.   Yes.  We got on well together, both at work and in private life,

18    and we visited each other.

19       Q.   Are you aware of the ethnicity of Mr. Milorad Krnojelac's wife?

20       A.   Yes.  I knew that she is Croatian.

21       Q.   Do you know whether Milorad Krnojelac observed in his household

22    the customs of both Orthodox and Christians and Catholics, since his wife

23    is a Croat?

24       A.   He  celebrated both Christmases and both Easters.

25       Q.   What was the ethnic composition of his friends?  Do you know

Page 6748

 1    anything about that?

 2       A.   Yes.  They were mixed in terms of ethnicity.  People from all

 3    three ethnic groups visited that house.

 4       Q.   In view of the fact that you worked together with Milorad

 5    Krnojelac that, as you said, you visited each other and socialised outside

 6    working hours, do you happen to know whether Milorad Krnojelac belonged,

 7    in 1990 and 1991, to any political party?

 8       A.   Neither Milorad nor myself belonged to any nationalist political

 9    party or national-oriented political party, and this brought us even

10    closer together because we shared the same views.

11       Q.   Did Milorad Krnojelac attend any of the rallies organised at the

12    time by political parties?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Did you ever discuss at the time the rising nationalism and, if

15    you did, what was Milorad Krnojelac's opinion on the subject?

16       A.   Yes, we did discuss that and we came to the conclusion that it was

17    a folly which would soon pass, but we were wrong.

18       Q.   Mr. Vukovic, tell me, in that year, 1992, where did you live in

19    Foca, in which neighbourhood?

20       A.   I lived in the centre of the town in a small, one-storey house.

21    That's where I lived then, and that's where I live still.

22       Q.   You told us that at the time, you worked in the Uport Enterprise.

23    Could you tell us until when did you go to work there?

24       A.   Apart from a couple of interruptions during combat operations, I

25    went to work the entire summer.  My job was to organise the work of

Page 6749

 1    primary schools, to receive teachers, refugees from other areas, and on

 2    the instructions of the president of the executive council, to provide the

 3    resources for their salaries which he would eventually reimburse.

 4       Q.   Was Radojica Mladjenovic president of the executive council at the

 5    time?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Would you tell me, please, at the time when combat operations

 8    started, were primary schools operating in Foca?

 9       A.   No.  The schools stopped working before the outbreak of

10    hostilities because the parents wouldn't send their children to school.

11    They felt that a time of unrest was beginning and, therefore, there could

12    be no classes in schools.

13       Q.   Do you mean the parents of both Serb and Muslim ethnicity?

14       A.   I mean all parents of all ethnic groups.  Many of them had left

15    town and taken their children with them, both Serbs and Muslims.

16       Q.   How long before the outbreak of hostilities did schools close

17    down?

18       A.   After the weekend, there came a Monday when some children turned

19    up, and there were three classes a day.  The following Tuesday, there were

20    very few children.  I was in the Veselin Maslesa school when tuition was

21    interrupted.  There was no classes that day.  Two days later, I think it

22    was a Thursday, shooting started, and there could be no classes after

23    that.

24       Q.   After military operations started in Foca on the 8th of April

25    1992, where were you for the duration of these operations?

Page 6750













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Page 6751

 1       A.   I was in the building where I live.  We had shelter in the

 2    basement of that building, and that's where I spent most of my time in

 3    those days.  We had agreed to keep guard at the entrance in two shifts.  I

 4    and Ekrem Muftic were in one shift and [redacted] and Mile Biletic were in

 5    the other shift.  We stood guard at the entrance door.  Everyone who lived

 6    in the building were down there in the shelter because there was shooting,

 7    shells were falling very near us.

 8       Q.   Standing guard by your building, did you have any weapons?

 9       A.   I did not, but we had agreed, since [redacted] had a pistol, that

10    he would give me his pistol when I was on duty and take it back when it

11    was his turn.

12       Q.   And for how long did you continue with this practice of standing

13    guard?

14       A.   I don't remember exactly.  It might have lasted that first week,

15    perhaps a part of the week after that.  Even after the liberation of Foca

16    or, rather, the arrival of the army, we continued standing guard for a

17    while.

18       Q.   While you were inside the building and military operations were

19    under way in Foca, was this [redacted] whom you mentioned also in your

20    flat?

21       A.   Yes.  Since my flat is the nearest to the shelter, whenever

22    shelling would stop, or, rather, whenever fighting would stop and danger

23    would cease for a while, we would go back to the apartment, not only

24    [redacted] but everybody who lived in that entranceway.  We got back in to

25    eat, to have coffee.  We kept each other company in that apartment while

Page 6752

 1    waiting for a new attack when we have to go back to the shelter.

 2            We spent the nights in my apartment, the entire Muftic family,

 3    [redacted], the Skipins, the Petrovics.  Girls would go to the apartment

 4    above and spend the nights there on beds, on the floor, on sofas.  We were

 5    just trying to survive.

 6       Q.   In that period, did you ever talk on the telephone with

 7    Mr. Begovic in the presence of [redacted], and did Mr. Begovic ask you

 8    in that conversation to approach Mr. Krnojelac and try to ensure his

 9    assistance in the release of Mr. Enes Zekovic, who was detained at the

10    KP Dom?

11       A.   In the period while we were together in my apartment above the

12    shelter, I did not have any conversation with Mr. Begovic about Enes

13    Zekovic, and especially not soliciting his intercession at the KP Dom.  I

14    don't know what I possibly could have asked of Mr. Krnojelac, because he

15    wasn't warden then.

16            I don't know what happened later, because [redacted] left my

17    apartment and our residential building before Krnojelac became warden of

18    the KP Dom.  So this conversation couldn't have taken place.

19       Q.   Do you know anything about the position of Mr. Enes Begovic at the

20    time?

21       A.   Begovic was the commercial director of the Maglic company, and I

22    think, although I'm not sure, that he was also on the Crisis Staff.

23       Q.   Sir, this person you mentioned, this [redacted], can you remember

24    his first name?

25       A.   It was [redacted], Sorry.

Page 6753

 1       Q.   So you're saying you didn't discuss Enes Zekovic with Begovic.

 2    Does that mean you couldn't have said you did to [redacted]?

 3       A.   I never had that conversation, and I could have never said I did

 4    to [redacted].  That means that he couldn't have overheard it, nor

 5    could he have heard any such thing from me.  And at the time, Milorad was

 6    not warden of the KP Dom.  So there must be some confusion.

 7       Q.   While [redacted] was residing at your apartment as you

 8    described, did you ever talk to Milorad Krnojelac?

 9       A.   No, never.  I talked to him later.

10       Q.   Did [redacted] ever call you from [redacted] to ask him

11    to look -- to ask you to look after his son?

12       A.   No, he didn't call me.

13       Q.   Did you ever tell [redacted] that you were helping him for his

14    father's sake and not for his sake?

15       A.   No, I didn't say that to him.  I told him that I was helping him

16    because I was thinking of my own son, because he and I had not been

17    friends before the war.  We became friends only when the war broke out

18    when we started living together, and then I told him, "If I'm helping you,

19    I'm doing so because I'm thinking of my own son who needs help."

20       Q.   Throughout this time when you were in the building in which you

21    and [redacted] lived, did any armed soldiers come to the building?

22       A.   Yes.  They came as liberators of Foca.

23       Q.   Were these soldiers from Foca?

24       A.   No.  They were called guardsmen.

25       Q.   Did Milorad Krnojelac's sons ever enter your building wearing

Page 6754

 1    uniforms and carrying weapons?

 2       A.   No.  No, they didn't come at all.

 3       Q.   Did you ever say to Mr. [redacted] that you recognised

 4    Milorad Krnojelac's sons and talked to them when they came to your

 5    building in uniform and carrying weapons?

 6       A.   Well, I couldn't have said that to him because they didn't come

 7    there at all.

 8       Q.   Mr. Vukovic, can you tell me whether you know when Milorad

 9    Krnojelac was appointed warden of KP Dom Foca, temporary warden, when and

10    by whom; do you know that?

11       A.   I met Milorad in town, and he told me that he had been appointed

12    by the executive committee to be the temporary director of KP Dom, that

13    this was his work obligation.  I said to him that I also had received a

14    compulsory work order that I was to organise the work of the schools.  And

15    he said to me, "I have accepted this because it's my wartime assignment,

16    and I couldn't have refused it.  You know my wife is a Croat so perhaps I

17    could have big problems."

18       Q.   Do you know what the sanctions were, the punishment if someone did

19    not respond to a wartime assignment?

20       A.   If someone did not respond to a call-up or to go to their military

21    assignment, they had to go to prison.

22       Q.   When Mr. Krnojelac told you that he had been appointed temporary

23    warden of KP Dom, did he tell you what his duties were and what he was

24    told by the person from the executive committee who appointed him?

25       A.   He said he had been assigned there temporarily to organise work,

Page 6755













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Page 6756

 1    the work of the Drina plant, and to repair what had been damaged,

 2    something like that.  I don't remember everything he said.

 3       Q.   Do you know that, at the beginning of the war, Milorad Krnojelac's

 4    house was set on fire?

 5       A.   Yes, I know that.  And I talked to him on one occasion by

 6    telephone.  I asked him, "Do you know who set your house on fire?  Why did

 7    they pick on your house?"  And he said, "I don't know, and I prefer not to

 8    know.  Thank God that -- may this be the worst thing that happens.  I'll

 9    build another one."

10       Q.   Did he tell you what was actually burnt in the house?

11       A.   Well, he said that everything had been burnt, and we knew that

12    everything had been burnt because that was the only thing we could

13    conclude.

14       Q.   Do you know where the Krnojelac family was accommodated after

15    their house was burnt down?

16       A.   They were accommodated with Mico's brother in Cerezluk, and after

17    that, when the hotel was given over to refugees, then the family moved to

18    the hotel.

19       Q.   Could you tell us what hotel this was?

20       A.   The Drina Hotel, it was the only hotel.  There were no others.  I

21    apologise, the name is Hotel Vucevo Drina.

22       Q.   Is there a hotel called Zelengora in Foca?

23       A.   It's the same hotel.  It's that hotel.

24       Q.   You said that it was Mr. Radojica Mladjenovic, on behalf of the

25    municipal assembly, who told you to find teachers among the refugees from

Page 6757

 1    the other areas from which Serbs had fled.  Where were these refugees

 2    accommodated?

 3       A.   Well, I was to provide them with salaries.  Some were accommodated

 4    with their relatives and some in the hotel, the Zelengora Hotel.

 5       Q.   You said that you were given an assignment to organise the work of

 6    schools again.  So did you succeed in starting the schools again after the

 7    hostilities had ended in Foca?

 8       A.   The acting directors of the primary schools in the town, the

 9    president of the municipality, and I agreed that the schools should start

10    and work began.  They operated for a week and then this was interrupted

11    again because the parents were afraid to send their children to school,

12    fearing that they would be hurt on the way to school or in school.

13       Q.   Does this mean that the security situation in the town of Foca was

14    very unstable at the time?

15       A.   Yes, it was unstable.

16       Q.   Did you start teaching in the Veselin Maslesa school again?

17       A.   In view of the fact that the school year had ended earlier, the

18    following school year began on the 16th of August instead of the 1st of

19    September.  Because there were no maths teachers on the 1st of September,

20    I was assigned to teach maths in the Veselin Maslesa school.

21       Q.   Were you assigned to this school by a decision of the acting

22    director?

23       A.   Yes.  I was assigned to this school by a decision of the acting

24    director, Nikola Azdic.

25            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I would like the usher to show the

Page 6758

 1    witness ID D112.

 2       Q.   Mr. Vukovic, is this the decision?

 3       A.   Yes.  Yes, this is the decision.  Yes.  And it was under this

 4    decision that I began to work.

 5            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence proposes that

 6    ID D112 and 112A -- we tender it into evidence.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Any objection?

 8            MS. KUO:  No objection.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  They will be Exhibits D112 and 112A.

10            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We will not need the

11    decision any more.

12       Q.   You said that you began to work in the school.  And until when did

13    you continue to work in the school in that year 1992?

14       A.   Until the 19th of December, 1992.  On that morning, there was a

15    massacre in the village of Josanica.  The Ustasha burst into the village

16    and killed everyone they could find.  Then I was mobilised like everybody

17    else and was assigned to stand guard at the village of Brusna.  It's one

18    of the biggest villages in the Foca municipality.  And I stayed there

19    throughout the winter and part of the spring.

20       Q.   When were you demobilised from this unit?

21       A.   Well, I was returned to the school in May 1993, and I have been

22    working in the school since then without interruption, except that

23    sometimes I am called up at weekends or when needed.

24       Q.   Would you tell me, after the end of combat operations in the town

25    of Foca, was there a curfew imposed in Foca?

Page 6759

 1       A.   Yes, there was a curfew.  There was, and it lasted for quite a

 2    long time.

 3       Q.   When did it begin and when did it end?

 4       A.   It was from 8.00 p.m. until 6.00 a.m., because it was in the

 5    summertime.

 6       Q.   And to move around during the curfew, did you need special

 7    permission?

 8       A.   Yes.  It was only individuals, particular individuals who could

 9    move about, and they needed permission.

10       Q.   And did this curfew apply to all inhabitants of Foca?

11       A.   I think it did, unless someone had special permission to move

12    around.

13       Q.   Can you tell us how the town was supplied with food at that time?

14       A.   Supplies were very scarce.  First of all, there were no shops and

15    there were no goods being sold.  There was a time when there were no shops

16    in the town open at all.

17       Q.   During the war, did you run into Milorad Krnojelac in town?  Did

18    you talk in this period?

19       A.   Yes, we did come across each other.  He told me that he was having

20    problems finding supplies, that he had to ask for food and other products

21    which he needed, and that he was not happy about this.

22            On one occasion, he told me that he had told Mladjenovic that he

23    couldn't go on doing this.  He asked to be released.  He was getting on in

24    years and yet he had to go and beg for food for the KP Dom.

25       Q.   Do you know when Milorad Krnojelac was appointed warden of KP Dom

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Page 6761

 1    by the Ministry of Justice?

 2       A.   I think it was in early July or late June, around that time.

 3       Q.   What year?

 4       A.   1992.

 5       Q.   Did you talk to him about this appointment by the Ministry of

 6    Justice?

 7       A.   Yes, I did.  He was dissatisfied and I tried to comfort him.  And

 8    I said, "Well, I would have accepted under these circumstances."

 9       Q.   Did he tell you what his competence was as warden appointed by the

10    Ministry of Justice?

11       A.   He said that he was to start up production in the Drina plant to

12    make sure that work was going on at Velecevo, that he had to find cattle

13    feed, food for the prisoners, that he had his hands full.

14       Q.   I have to ask you again:  You said "prisoners"; do you mean

15    convicts?

16       A.   Yes.  Yes, because he was in charge of convicts who were working

17    in the Drina plant and at Velecevo.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Vasic, is that being used in some technical sense

19    of a person who has suffered a conviction in a court, the word "convict"?

20            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness used the word

21    "convict," someone who has been punished.  In our language, this means

22    someone against whom a sentence has been pronounced.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  I understand that is the meaning of the word

24    "convict."  That's the way I understand it.  If it's of universal

25    application, it's strange that we've heard so many descriptions from so

Page 6762

 1    many different witnesses here about the different nature of the way it has

 2    been used in relation to the KP Dom.  May I suggest that if you want him

 3    to put it forward in that sense, that's the way he has understood it and

 4    intended it, you should do so expressly because we have so many

 5    descriptions now of these detainees, if I may call them in a generic

 6    sense.

 7            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   Sir, you have just said that these were convicts, the persons of

 9    whom Mr. Krnojelac was in charge.  Can you explain what sort of people

10    they were?

11       A.   These were people who have been convicted, against whom a sentence

12    was pronounced, because KP Dom is a penal and correctional institution.

13    When I said "convicts," I mean people who were sentenced.  That's what I

14    meant.

15       Q.   And these convicts, were they there in KP Dom before the war broke

16    out, serving their sentences?

17       A.   Yes.  They were there, and I don't know if any other people were

18    convicted during the war, but there were convicts from before.

19       Q.   Do you know when Mr. Milorad Krnojelac was relieved of his duty as

20    warden of KP Dom also by the Ministry of Justice?

21       A.   I think he was relieved of his duty in August 1993.

22       Q.   Did you see this document and the date on it?

23       A.   No.  But he did tell me that he had been relieved of his duty

24    sometime around there, in that period.  When he was released, he told me

25    he had been released and I -- as I recall, it was in August or September

Page 6763

 1    1993.

 2       Q.   Sir, the Defence has a decision from the Ministry of Justice,

 3    dated the 1st of July 1993 --

 4            MS. KUO:  Your Honour, objection.  This is not a proper question

 5    for this particular witness.  The witness said he never saw any document.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  That's what I thought he said, actually.

 7            What are you going to do with this, Mr. Vasic?  If you want to

 8    tender it, you tender it, but I don't see how the witness can give you any

 9    evidence about it.

10            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw the question, Your Honour.

11    This document has already been admitted into evidence.

12       A.   May I give a correction?  I said this based on my assessment that

13    he was waiting for a job for about that long.  Otherwise, I don't remember

14    the date.

15       Q.   Mr. Vukovic, do you know whether any of the sons of Mr. Krnojelac

16    was wounded during military operations in the Foca municipality?

17       A.   Yes, I know about that.  Together with a group of soldiers, he

18    stepped on a mine and he lost both of his legs.

19       Q.   How do you know this?

20       A.   The entire town knows this.  The rumours started circulating the

21    next day.  We found out immediately who was wounded and who was killed.

22    It shot through the town, this piece of news.

23       Q.   Since you were friends with Mr. Krnojelac, do you know if

24    Mr. Krnojelac went to visit his wounded son?

25       A.   When the wounded were transferred from the Foca hospital to

Page 6764

 1    Belgrade, Krnojelac went with his son.  I saw Krnojelac after he had come

 2    back, and I went to call on him.  He was at the hotel at the time.  We sat

 3    down and talked, and among others things, we discussed the condition of

 4    his son.  I think it was mid-July when he came back from Belgrade.  I'm

 5    not sure of the precise date, but it was sometime in mid-July.

 6       Q. [redacted]

 7       A. [redacted]

 8    [redacted]

 9       Q.   In which school?

10       A.   [redacted].  We worked together, Mico, [redacted], and myself.

11       Q.   During the war in Foca which broke out on the 8th of April, did

12    you see him?

13       A.   I saw him when he had come back from Serbia.  I don't remember the

14    exact date.  We met downtown and we talked for a short while, and then we

15    went our separate ways.

16            That evening, he called me at home and asked if he could come and

17    see me.  I said yes.  About five minutes later, the doorbell rang and

18    Milorad and Slavica were at the door.  I was slightly taken aback because

19    they hadn't called to say they were coming.  I didn't tell them anything

20    about [redacted]

21    [redacted] We sat

22    down, had coffee, talked.  Mico and [redacted] talked, and Mico was telling how

23    he became the warden.  He discussed this with [redacted], and they were both

24    saying how they were in a fragile position due to the fact that they were

25    in mixed-ethnic marriages.

Page 6765













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Page 6766

 1            [redacted] shared the view that the two of us had, that it was a folly

 2    that would soon pass, and then we switched on to more general subjects.

 3    When we parted, Milorad and [redacted] left my house together.  That was that

 4    first day when [redacted] came.

 5       Q [redacted]

 6    [redacted]

 7       A.   Yes, I learnt about that.  [redacted] wife, informed me.

 8       Q. [redacted], and where did you visit him?

 9       A.   Yes, I did.

10       Q.   How many times?

11       A.   His wife, [redacted], left some heart medication with Spomenka Hamovic,

12    another colleague of ours, and Spomenka asked me to go and visit [redacted]

13    together and pass him this medicine.

14            I already knew that those visits were not allowed or, more

15    precisely, that Milorad could not allow them.  But since Spomenka

16    pressured me to join her and come with her, I went.

17            We reported to the man at the reception desk, saying that we

18    wanted to see Milorad.  We told Milorad why we had come.  He just waved

19    his head and called someone to ask whether we could see [redacted] or, more

20    precisely, [redacted].  I didn't hear what the

21    other man said, but he sent the two of us into the next -- into the

22    adjacent office, which was empty.  I think it was the office of assistant

23    or deputy warden or someone like that.

24            So we sat there and [redacted] eventually came.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Just one moment, sir.  Just one moment.

Page 6767

 1            Mr. Vasic, this person, I'm reminded, is a protected witness and

 2    has a pseudonym, RJ.  Now, we can certainly redact everything that's come

 3    up so far, but may I suggest that you refer to him as such and explain to

 4    the witness that he should refer to him as such as well.

 5            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.  I apologise

 6    for this omission, but from what I remember from the videolink, I don't

 7    recall that he had protection.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, I'm told by the court deputy, and I think she

 9    probably has the list down there.  RJ is the pseudonym you should use.

10            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] That's no problem at all.  Thank you,

11    Your Honours.

12       Q.   Sir, the person we have been discussing, this friend of yours, we

13    will not refer to him from now on by his full name.  We should, rather,

14    use [redacted] RJ.  Will you please try to remember this.

15       A.   So we sat there in this office when he turned up.  Mico ordered

16    coffee.  We had coffee.  We gave him the medicines.  We had a brief

17    conversation.  It didn't last very long.  And then we left. [redacted] went

18    out in front of us.  We thanked Milorad and left.  That was our first

19    visit.

20       Q.   If I may just ask you one thing:  You said that on that occasion,

21    Milorad Krnojelac called somebody on the phone.  Do you know who it was?

22       A.   I think it was one of those people who were keeping those

23    prisoners, detainees - how shall I call them?  - who were guarding RJ.

24    One of those people, I suppose.

25       Q.   Do you know who, among them --

Page 6768

 1       A.   I suppose --

 2       Q.   Sir, may I finish my question?  I have already asked you to wait

 3    for me to finish my question and for that question to be interpreted

 4    because other participants in these proceedings do not know our language

 5    and have to hear the interpretation.  Only after that should you start

 6    answering.

 7            So you said those people down there, do you mean the people who

 8    were in charge of detained persons?  Did he tell you who he was calling?

 9       A.   I think those were military authorities or the Crisis Staff, one

10    of those two.  He said that he couldn't do it himself, that he had to

11    ask.  I think those were the military authorities at Velecevo because that

12    was confirmed by a -- through a different channel when we came --

13       Q.   Will you please try to answer the question.  When you came into

14    Krnojelac's office with your colleague Spomenka, on which floor was it?

15       A.   I think the office was on the second floor.  I'm not sure.

16       Q.   Did you see a barrel of a light machine-gun protruding through the

17    window of this office and aiming at the courtyard?

18       A.   I never saw a light machine-gun or any barrels.

19       Q.   Do you remember when you went for that visit?

20       A.   I think it was in the month of June, but I don't remember the

21    date.

22       Q.   Thank you, sir.  Did you ever go there again to visit?

23       A.   Yes.  Yes.

24       Q.   Can you tell us, if you remember, when that was?

25       A.   I cannot precisely place it in time.  I think it was in the end of

Page 6769

 1    July that I met with Milisa Dakic, a former schoolmate, who resided with

 2    the parents of RJ, had lived there at the time for two years.  He asked

 3    after him, and I replied that he was detained.  He asked if we could go

 4    and visit him, and I said that depended on the military authorities

 5    because I had already found out those visits were arranged through them.

 6            He had some friends up there at Velecevo, among those military

 7    authorities, and he arranged for us to go and visit.  Again, we called to

 8    say we were coming to see Mico and we explained that we had permission

 9    from the military authorities to visit [redacted].  He called and checked up

10    there, [redacted] just as the time before, to see us.

11            We greeted each other.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Sir, you really must -- you must attempt, please, not

13    to use the name.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

15            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   Go on, please.

17       A.   RJ asked if we could help him in some way and I said there was

18    nothing I could do and there was nothing Mico could do whereas Dakic said

19    he would try with the military authorities to do something to ensure

20    [redacted] release.  I didn't contact Dakic after that to see whether he had

21    managed to help, but RJ actually was in the first group exchanged.

22       Q.   During your second visit to Mr. RJ, was Mr. Milorad Krnojelac

23    present all the time?

24       A.   No, not all the time.

25       Q.   And did you hear Milorad Krnojelac reply to RJ's question as to

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Page 6771

 1    what had happened to Halim Konjo that he was dead?

 2       A.   That question was never asked in front of us.  I really don't know

 3    anything about that.

 4       Q.   Would you have heard it if it had been asked?

 5       A.   I suppose so.

 6       Q.   Were you all in the same room during that visit when you were with

 7    RJ and Milorad Krnojelac?

 8       A.   Yes, we were all in that room.  There was just one moment when

 9    Milorad was ordering hot coffee that he left us for a while.

10       Q.   Did RJ stay in the room with you at that moment?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Did you ever tell RJ that Milorad Krnojelac had escaped to his

13    village in order to avoid doing his job?

14       A.   No, I never told him that because I don't even know that he had

15    run away to the country.  I don't think he did.

16       Q.   Did you tell RJ that Milorad Krnojelac was going -- wanted to kill

17    himself, that he had tried suicide?

18       A.   I never told him that because I didn't know that Milorad Krnojelac

19    had wanted it.  I don't know anything about it.

20       Q.   In your conversations with Milorad Krnojelac, did you ever hear

21    that he wanted to commit suicide?

22       A.   He never said he wanted to commit suicide, not in my presence.

23       Q.   You told us that you used to see Milorad Krnojelac in the street.

24    Now we hear that you also saw him while you were visiting.  Do you

25    remember how he was dressed at that time in 1992?

Page 6772

 1       A.   As far as I can remember, his dress varied, so to speak.

 2    Sometimes he wore a uniform, sometimes civilian clothes, and sometimes he

 3    wore a combination of the two, because everybody knew his house had burnt

 4    and that he didn't have much clothing.

 5       Q.   Was there any indication of rank on that uniform?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Did you see him carrying a weapon?

 8       A.   No.  Milorad Krnojelac did not carry any weapons.

 9       Q.   Is that also true of the time of your two visits to the KP Dom?

10       A.   Yes.  On those occasions, too, he didn't have any weapons.

11       Q.   Do you know when Milorad Krnojelac started working in the Veselin

12    Maslesa primary school again?

13       A.   Yes.  On the 4th of September, 1994.

14       Q.   Do you know what Milorad Krnojelac was doing from July 1993, when

15    he was relieved of his duties, until September 1994 when he took up his

16    job -- his old job at the Veselin Maslesa primary school?

17       A.   Yes.  In that period, he was jobless.

18       Q.   Did he try to find a job in that period?

19       A.   Yes.  He was trying, but he couldn't find anything that suited

20    him.  He wanted to be a teacher, and there were no vacancies for

21    teachers.

22       Q.   Did he tell you that the Ministry of Justice interceded on his

23    part to help him get a job?

24       A.   Yes.  They tried to find him some kind of job, but he wanted to go

25    back to school.

Page 6773

 1       Q.   When did the vacancy for the director at the Veselin Maslesa

 2    school appear?

 3       A.   In April 1994, the acting director was going to retire at the

 4    time.

 5       Q.   In April 1994.  In fact, after April 1994, have any -- had the job

 6    of director of this school been offered to Milorad Krnojelac?

 7       A.   Yes.  This job was offered to him, but he wanted to be a teacher.

 8    And since he wasn't able to find such a job before September, then he

 9    accepted the post of director, the headmaster of the school.

10            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's 1.00.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  We'll resume again at 2.30.

12                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.














Page 6774

 1                          --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  You want to say something, Ms. Kuo?

 3            MS. KUO:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution asks for a few

 4    minutes in private session out of earshot of the witness.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Private session altogether or just out of his

 6    earshot?

 7            MS. KUO:  Private session as well.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  All right.  We'll go into private session.

 9                          [Private session]

10    [redacted]

11    [redacted]

12    [redacted]

13    [redacted]

14    [redacted]

15    [redacted]

16    [redacted]

17    [redacted]

18    [redacted]

19    [redacted]

20    [redacted]

21    [redacted]

22    [redacted]

23    [redacted]

24    [redacted]

25    [redacted]

Page 6775













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Page 6776













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Page 6777

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13                          [Open session]

14            JUDGE HUNT:  And we are in public session.  The witness, thanks.

15                          [The witness entered court]

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Vasic.

17            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour

18       Q.   Good day, sir.  Before the break, we spoke about the fact that

19    Mr. Milorad Krnojelac, in September 1994, became the director of the

20    Veselin Maslesa primary school.

21            Do you know whether, as the director of the primary school, he

22    cooperated with members of international organisations and the IPTF?

23       A.   I know that well, that he cooperated with them.  And when he

24    wasn't there, he delegated me to replace him and talk to them instead of

25    him.

Page 6778

 1       Q.   Can you tell us, in these contacts, how Mr. Krnojelac introduced

 2    himself?

 3       A.   As director, Milorad Krnojelac.

 4       Q.   Does that mean he introduced himself using his full name?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Do you know, when he signed the documents on behalf of the school,

 7    how he signed them?

 8       A.   He signed them "M. Krnojelac," or if they were less important,

 9    "M.K."  This is the same signature he used in the school before the war.

10       Q.   Sir, do you know with whom from the IPTF or international

11    organisations Mr. Krnojelac had the most frequent contacts?

12       A.   Most often the visitor was Major Hans Time, but others came also,

13    whose names I do not know.  Even the general, the commander in chief of

14    the forces in Railovac, but I don't know his name.

15       Q.   Were those SFOR forces?

16       A.   I think they were, SFOR and SIMIC, and IPTF.  There were a lot of

17    them who passed through the school, and they still visit it today.

18       Q.   Do you know whether Mr. Milorad Krnojelac, while he was the

19    director of the primary school, went to seminars and competitions

20    organised by international organisations?

21       A.   Yes, he did.  He went to seminars, to consultations.  He went to

22    competitions together with me, competitions in maths, physics and so on.

23    We took part in federal maths competitions.  We travelled together, he as

24    the director and I as teacher.

25       Q.   And when making these trips, did you pass through the territory of

Page 6779

 1    the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 2       A.   Yes, we did, most often through Gorazde.

 3            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the help of the usher, I would

 4    like to show the witness ID D108.

 5       Q.   Sir, do you know this document?  Are you familiar with it?  Have

 6    you seen it before?

 7       A.   Yes, I am familiar with it.  I have seen it.

 8       Q.   Who composed and signed this document?

 9       A.   Milorad Krnojelac.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Vasic, how can he possibly say who composed it?

11    He can identify the signature as that of your client.

12            If this is to avoid calling your client, I suggest you should do

13    it just a little bit more carefully.  Nobody can say that it was composed

14    by your client other than your client.

15            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is not an attempt to

16    avoid my client's testimony.  I asked about the signature, it's true, but

17    perhaps I should have asked the witness whether he was present when the

18    document was composed.  In any case, I shall leave this question aside

19    until my client testifies before Your Honours.

20       Q.   Thank you, sir.  We shall no longer need this document.

21            Sir, did you talk to Mr. Milorad Krnojelac when Mr. Kunarac gave

22    himself up to the international forces and came to The Hague?

23       A.   Yes, we talked.  There were several of us together, and we talked

24    about how Kunarac had given himself up.  Mico said, "If there was an

25    indictment against me, I, too, would give myself up."

Page 6780













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Page 6781

 1       Q.   Mr. Vukovic, can you tell us, finally, what Mr. Krnojelac's staff

 2    thought of him where he was director of the primary school?

 3       A.   I can tell you that the staff had a very high opinion of

 4    Mr. Krnojelac, and they still have a high opinion of him today when he's

 5    here.  And they are all convinced that he did an honest job, that he did

 6    his job properly, whatever he did.

 7            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vukovic.

 8            Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions.  Thank you.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  Ms. Kuo.

10            MS. KUO:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                          Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

12       Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

13       A.   Good afternoon.

14       Q.   Mr. Vukovic, you have known Milorad Krnojelac since childhood,

15    right?

16       A.   Yes, since the seventh grade of primary school when we, as good

17    math students, sat in the same bench.

18       Q.   And you remain friends with him to this very day, right, over 40

19    years later?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   You're here today to help him; isn't that right?

22       A.   I am here to tell the truth about him.

23       Q.   When you entered the courtroom this morning, the first thing you

24    did was to smile and wave at Mr. Krnojelac; right?

25       A.   Yes.  I was glad to see him.

Page 6782

 1       Q.   You and Mr. Krnojelac share the same political views; isn't that

 2    right?

 3       A.   For the most part, yes.  Yes.

 4       Q.   In fact, a great deal of your friendship is based on the fact that

 5    you agree on many of the same issues; right?

 6       A.   Well, naturally, yes.

 7       Q.   Among the issues that you agree on are interethnic relations and

 8    the things that have happened in Foca; right?

 9       A.   Yes.  We fully agree about national issues, and we have other

10    views on politics that correspond.

11       Q.   Mr. Vukovic, you are a member of the SDS, aren't you?

12       A.   No.  No.  Neither I nor Milorad are members of the SDS.  We were

13    members of the League of Communists and we stayed in it until it

14    disintegrated.

15       Q.   Are you saying that you're not a member of any political party

16    today?

17       A.   Yes.  I am not a member of any political party.

18       Q.   Isn't it true that Milorad Krnojelac was present during election

19    rallies of the SDS in 1992?

20       A.   He was never at those rallies, neither he nor I.  We avoided those

21    rallies.

22       Q.   Mr. Vukovic, do you know Vojo Maksimovic or Velibor Ostojic?

23       A.   I know both of them.

24       Q.   Both of them are high-ranking members of the SDS; is that right?

25       A.   They were.

Page 6783

 1       Q.   Isn't it true that Milorad Krnojelac was often seen in their

 2    presence before the war in Foca at the Robarski restaurant?

 3       A.   I don't know about this.  I don't think he was.  He might have

 4    been seen with them sometimes, but certainly not often.

 5       Q.   So sometimes he was?

 6       A.   I didn't know about that.  I never saw him.

 7       Q.   But you allow for the possibility that they were together?

 8       A.   As far as I know, no.

 9       Q.   Except for the time that you went to the front line in December of

10    1992 until the early part of 1993, you never left Foca, right, for an

11    extended period of time?

12       A.   No, never.

13       Q.   And you've lived there until the present day; right?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   So, sir, you know that by the end of 1992, except for the Muslim

16    men who were detained at KP Dom and a few Muslim girls who were detained

17    in private homes by Serb soldiers, there were no more Muslims left in Foca

18    at that time; right?

19       A.   There were Muslims.  There were, and there still are today, but a

20    small number.  They are mostly people in mixed marriages.

21       Q.   Can you give us a number?  It's significantly smaller than what it

22    was before the war, right, because before the war, it was almost 50/50.

23       A.   I couldn't tell you the number, but it is a small number.  I know

24    that today, I asked for the information, and it's 2.6 per cent of Muslim

25    children in the school.

Page 6784

 1       Q.   Foca is no longer called Foca; right?

 2       A.   Foca Srbinje.

 3       Q.   And "Srbinje" means Serbian town, doesn't it?

 4       A.   I don't know what it means.  I didn't participate in creating it.

 5    It was a narrow circle of people who selected the name and it was

 6    accepted.

 7       Q.   And the name changed in what year, when all documents became --

 8    were switched from being called Foca to Srbinje?

 9       A.   I don't have that information.  I think it was in 1973.  I'm not

10    sure about that.

11       Q.   You mean 1993?

12       A.   Yes, yes, yes, yes.  That's what I meant, yes.

13       Q.   In fact, when the name changed, there was a big celebration in the

14    town to mark the change, right?

15       A.   No.  No.

16       Q.   Sir, during your testimony today, you described the arrival of the

17    Serb army after the fighting in Foca, and you described their arrival as

18    the liberation of Foca, right?

19       A.   That was what it was called.

20       Q.   And those are the words you used as well?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And when you testified about the massacre in Josanica in December

23    of 1992, you referred to the people who perpetrated that as the Ustasha,

24    meaning the Muslims; right?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 6785













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14    and the English transcripts.












Page 6786

 1       Q.   "Ustasha," just so the Judges have an explanation, is a term

 2    used -- that is not -- that is a derogatory term for the Muslims, right,

 3    and sometimes for the Croats as well?

 4            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  This was not a

 5    question.  If we are explaining the term "Ustasha," we have to explain

 6    that this term dates back to World War II.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  And refers to the Croats, I thought.

 8            MS. KUO:  I wanted to get the explanation from this witness.

 9    That's why I asked the question.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  That's all right.  I think you can go ahead.

11            What's the problem, Mr. Vasic?

12            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  It seems to me that my

13    learned friend put this as a comment and not as a question, which is why I

14    said to begin with that if -- I objected to it if it was a comment.  I

15    apologise.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  No, no.  It's perfectly all right.  She's asking him

17    about the testimony he gave that these people who perpetrated the massacre

18    were Ustasha.  Now, that means the Muslims, she wants to know.  That's a

19    perfectly appropriate question.

20            You go ahead.

21            MS. KUO:

22       Q.   Would you answer the question?  When you used the word "Ustasha,"

23    that was a derogatory term for the Muslims?

24       A.   Yes.  But they referred to themselves that way.  They called

25    themselves Ustasha.  It wasn't just us who referred to them that way.

Page 6787

 1    They called themselves as Ustasha.  And they constantly referred to the

 2    Serb army as Chetniks.  So this was inherited from the past war.  So they

 3    called themselves Chetniks and Ustasha respectively, and, yes, I was

 4    referring to the Muslim army.

 5       Q.   Mr. Vukovic, you were a math teacher at the Veselin Maslesa

 6    primary school for seven years before you became principal, right?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And then you were principal for 11 years, from 1978 to 1989,

 9    right?

10       A.   Almost a full 12 years.  Nearly 12, yes.

11       Q.   As the principal, you were the director of the entire school, all

12    the students and all the teachers, right?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   You were responsible for the welfare of the students and the

15    discipline of the teachers, right?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   As principal, you had a responsibility to learn what was happening

18    in the school so that if something was going on that shouldn't happen, you

19    could take action, right?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   From 1989 until 1991, you testified, you were director of the work

22    organisation of education?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   When you gave a statement to Defence investigators in February of

25    this year, you told them that you were director from 1989 until 1992.

Page 6788

 1       A.   Yes.  Yes.  I said that because this company continued to work for

 2    primary education.

 3       Q.   Okay.  So even though you testified earlier that from 1991 until

 4    1992 you became the director of the joint venture Uport, that was a

 5    continuation of the job you held in 1989?

 6       A.   Correct.

 7       Q.   Would you explain to us what you did, what it was that the work

 8    organisation of education did.

 9       A.   It was an organisation that gathered together all the schools at

10    the level of the Foca municipality.  There were seven primary schools.

11       Q.   Was this a government organisation or a private organisation?

12       A.   It was government.

13       Q.   So when you said "joint venture," what was that referring to?

14       A.   The law of 1990 was changed and work organisations were

15    abolished.  Companies were set up to replace the former type of

16    organisation.  So we -- we established this company which had a different

17    name but continued to do the same work.

18       Q.   And as part of your job as the director of this work organisation

19    and later company, you had dealings with the municipal government in Foca,

20    right?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   So you dealt with people like Nurko Nisic or Enes Zekovic who

23    worked in the municipality; is that right?

24       A.   No.  No.

25       Q.   You described to us that Milorad Krnojelac received the work

Page 6789

 1    assignment as the warden of the KP Dom.  When was that?

 2       A.   That was in April 1992.  I think it was the 18th of April.

 3       Q.   Is there anything in particular that helps you remember that date

 4    so precisely?

 5       A.   I know because, when I met him later, I told him that I got a

 6    similar work duty to organise the work of the school, because Mladjenovic

 7    summoned me and told me to receive those refugees and organise the

 8    reopening of schools.

 9       Q.   You were summoned specifically and individually to receive this

10    assignment or was it part of a general call?

11       A.   First, he summoned me individually, and later, I got an order to

12    that effect because what he told me about it being my duty or task to

13    procure funds was never written anywhere and I never required an order.

14       Q.   Did you receive your order on the 18th of April?

15       A.   I had this contact, written contact two days earlier, actually.

16       Q.   In other words, you received a letter on the 16th of April; is

17    that what you mean?

18       A.   No.  No.  It was an oral order.

19       Q.   Did you receive that by telephone?

20       A.   No.  I was told this by Mladjenovic personally in his office.

21       Q.   Where was his office?

22       A.   At the town hall.

23       Q.   Do you know if he was also giving out orders at the Foca High

24    School?

25            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter doesn't hear the witness.

Page 6790













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Page 6791

 1            MS. KUO:

 2       Q.   Mr. Vukovic, could you repeat your answer, the interpreter didn't

 3    hear it.

 4       A.   I don't know about the secondary school.

 5       Q.   You don't know whether the secondary school was being used by

 6    Mladjenovic during this time, to give people work assignments?

 7       A.   No.  That's in a different part of town.

 8       Q.   You testified that Milorad Krnojelac expressed his inability to

 9    refuse a work assignment because his wife was Croat.  Could you explain to

10    us what is meant by that?  Why would the fact that his wife was Croat

11    create problems for him?

12       A.   I think that mixed marriages found themselves amidst the general

13    political crisis and you couldn't know what was an advantage or a

14    disadvantage in this struggle for survival.  So resisting would have been

15    crazy at that time, I think.

16       Q.   At the time of the 16th of April, Foca was already in Serb hands;

17    right?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   So the fact that Mr. Krnojelac's wife was Croat might have created

20    a problem because she was non-Serb, and non-Serbs were being persecuted at

21    that time; right?

22       A.   Could you make this a little clearer?

23       Q.   Yes.  At this time in Foca, the Serbs were in control and anyone

24    who was not Serb, and the spouses of such persons, were in potential

25    danger; right?

Page 6792

 1       A.   They were under the shadow of a doubt, both communists were and

 2    such people were.  They were doubted.  They were suspect.

 3       Q.   When you say "they," you mean non-Serbs; right?

 4       A.   I mean both Serbs and non-Serbs.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  I understood the answer to mean that Mr. Krnojelac

 6    was under a doubt because he was married to a Croat.

 7            MS. KUO:  That was the formulation of my question.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  I thought he was accepting that.  I don't want you to

 9    be at cross-purposes.

10            MS. KUO:  If that is understood, then I'll move on.

11            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

12    intervene.  I'm sorry to interrupt my colleague.  But about what we have

13    been discussing, the witness added another thing that is not in the

14    transcript, regarding who was suspect at the time.  He added that he, too,

15    was suspect at the time.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  That is in the answer that is recorded at lines 20

17    and 21, "They were under the shadow of a doubt, both communists were and

18    such people were.  They were doubted.  They were suspect."

19            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] And at the end of that sentence, he

20    said, "And I was one of them."

21            JUDGE HUNT:  He's told us that he was a member of the Communist

22    party, so I think that could be understood.

23            You go ahead, Ms. Kuo.

24            MS. KUO:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25       Q.   Before the war, everybody was a communist; isn't that right?

Page 6793

 1    Serbs, Croats, Muslims.

 2       A.   There were communists among all ethnic groups and nations.  Not

 3    everyone was a communist.

 4       Q.   But the fact that you were a communist during and after the war

 5    didn't really mean anything anymore; right?  People joined the communist

 6    party for non-political reasons as well; right?

 7       A.   Possibly.  Possibly.  But I personally became a communist out of

 8    conviction.

 9       Q.   But during the war and afterwards in Foca, you were never

10    persecuted because you were a communist; right?

11       A.   It's a different concept but, yes, there was some of that.

12       Q.   You were never arrested and detained, were you?

13       A.   No.  No, because I was obedient.

14       Q.   And you were never forced to be separated from your family, were

15    you?

16       A.   Yes, by summons.

17       Q.   When you went to the front line?

18       A.   When I left to defend Brusna, I went because I was called up, not

19    because I wanted to.  And if I hadn't gone, I would have gone to prison.

20       Q.   But you were never arrested and detained or sent to the front line

21    or separated from your family simply because you were a communist; right?

22    That was not a reason for anything like that happening to you.

23       A.   It never came to a settlement of accounts between communists and

24    the others.  There may have been.  It had come close to that at one point,

25    but it never really happened.

Page 6794

 1       Q.   But, in fact, the Muslim men were being arrested and detained at

 2    the KP Dom without any criminal charges ever being brought against them;

 3    isn't that right?

 4       A.   I don't know about that.

 5       Q.   And people were forced from their homes in Foca simply because

 6    they were Muslim as well; right?

 7       A.   I don't know.  I never took part in that.

 8       Q.   Sir, you lived in Foca during the summer of 1992, right?

 9       A.   Yes, I did.

10       Q.   So surely you saw or learned about Muslim men being arrested

11    although they had never committed any crimes or disobeyed any orders,

12    right?

13       A.   I simply took shelter in my apartment, and I didn't want to see

14    anything.

15       Q.   Surely you're aware that there were busloads of women and children

16    who were shipped out of Foca to Montenegro in August, right?  That could

17    not have escaped your attention.

18       A.   No, I didn't see that, but I heard that they had received permits

19    to get out.  There must have been a permit involved.

20       Q.   Milorad Krnojelac stayed the entire war in Foca, right?

21       A.   Apart from business trips and when he went to visit his wounded

22    son, I don't know whether he was absent at any other time.

23       Q.   He was never forced to live anywhere else but Foca, right?

24       A.   No, he wasn't forced to.  He lived in Foca.

25       Q.   And his family was able to stay in Foca as well, including his

Page 6795













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Page 6796

 1    wife, right?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And Milorad Krnojelac was never sent to the front line, as you

 4    were, was he?

 5       A.   Not that I know of, except for the time when we were working in

 6    the same school, then we were called up together.

 7       Q.   You were called up when?

 8       A.   In 1995, in June.  When there was the offensive on Mount

 9    Treskavica, when the Muslims broke through.  We from the school were

10    called up to go there.

11       Q.   You mean you went to the front line at that time, to fight?

12       A.   To defend against the breakthrough.

13       Q.   And are you saying that Milorad Krnojelac went at that time as

14    well, put on a uniform with you to go defend --

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   What rank did he have at that time?

17       A.   We all went up there at that time, all the teachers.  He didn't

18    have any rank.

19       Q.   Wasn't he already --

20       A.   There were no ranks.

21       Q.   Wasn't he already a Captain First Class in the reserve?

22       A.   That's what he was before the war.

23       Q.   And during the war and afterwards, he maintained that rank,

24    right?

25       A.   Those ranks from the old Yugoslav army were not recognised or,

Page 6797

 1    rather, those other people didn't really respect them.

 2       Q.   Which other people?

 3       A.   Those military authorities.

 4       Q.   The Serb military authorities?

 5       A.   Yes, yes.

 6       Q.   Are you saying that when you went to fight in 1995, Milorad

 7    Krnojelac went as a simple private?

 8       A.   Just as I did.  We went up there to stand guard, for guard duty.

 9    We were too old to fight.  We were in the background, in the rear, whereas

10    other units went up there on Mount Treskavica.

11            MS. KUO:  Your Honours, I'd like to request private session at

12    this point.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  We'll go into private session

14                          [Private session]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 6798













13pages 6798-6808 redacted – private session.














Page 6809

 1                          [Open session]

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  We're now in open session.

 3            MS. KUO:

 4       Q.   When Mr. Milorad Krnojelac's house burned down, did you learn

 5    about it immediately?

 6       A.   Well, I think so, yes.

 7       Q.   Because you were good friends and this was a tragedy for him?

 8       A.   No.  No, because those were the first houses to burn, and when the

 9    first houses were set on fire, everybody knew whose house had been set on

10    fire.  Those were the first atrocities that happened in the town, so that

11    the rumours spread very quickly.

12       Q.   When was his house burned down; what date?

13       A.   No, I don't know.

14       Q.   You didn't learn it directly from Mr. Krnojelac, right?  You heard

15    it as part of the rumours?

16       A.   No, no, no.  It was a rumour.  It was a rumour going around.

17       Q.   And you told us during your testimony that Milorad Krnojelac said,

18    "Thank God nothing worse happened," and by that he meant nobody was

19    harmed, right?

20       A.   Precisely so.  Yes, that's what he said.

21       Q.   Nobody was harmed because his family had already moved out of the

22    house a day or two earlier, right?

23       A.   Yes, something like that.

24       Q.   And they were staying with his brother in Cerezluk, right?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 6810













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Page 6811

 1       Q.   So it wasn't the situation where somebody was forced to flee in

 2    the middle of the night because the house suddenly went up in flames,

 3    right; nothing like that?

 4       A.   Well, it was the border area bordering on the Muslim

 5    neighbourhood, so it was risky to stay there.  So everybody from that part

 6    left.  They simply took shelter elsewhere.

 7       Q.   Mr. Vukovic, when did you receive your work assignment?  I'm

 8    sorry, I've already asked you about that.

 9            When you received your work assignment, you said it was to

10    organise the schools to receive refugees.  Does that mean that schools

11    were being used to house refugees?

12       A.   No.  No.  The schools were free.  It was because children didn't

13    come that there were no classes, because of the outbreak of war.  So then

14    the aim was to organise the work of schools, because we could see that the

15    war would last for some time.  So to avoid losing the school year, I was

16    charged with trying to organise the work of the schools.

17       Q.   Was it just the primary schools or all the schools?

18       A.   The primary schools, that was what I had to do.  The secondary

19    school was also there, but there was another director for that.

20       Q.   And one of the tasks that you had was to get enough teachers to

21    begin classes again, right?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Because as you testified earlier, at one point the Veselin Maslesa

24    school had 14 Montenegrin teachers, right?

25       A.   Totally employed.  That includes teachers and other staff.

Page 6812

 1       Q.   Did those 14 Montenegrins stay when the war broke out?

 2       A.   You misused this information.  I said at a certain time, maybe in

 3    1989 or 1985.  I know that at a certain moment, it was 14, 14, 14 and that

 4    stuck in my mind as an interesting piece of information.  So that wasn't

 5    just before the war broke out, it was at a previous time.

 6            And when the war broke out, it was approximately the same but I

 7    can't be sure about the exact numbers.  Becir Kajaca, a Muslim, was the

 8    principal at the time.  And when the war erupted, he was in the hospital.

 9    He had just had an operation.  And he stayed in the hospital for some time

10    and then when he got out, he stayed at home for a long time.

11       Q.   I apologise about the use of the numbers.  You mean that those

12    numbers were accurate as early as 1989, right, when you were principal?

13       A.   Well, in a year, I don't know which exactly.

14       Q.   During the time when it was your job to get teachers to start up

15    the schools again, there was no more Muslim teachers available; right?

16       A.   There were.  There were.

17       Q.   So you asked Muslim teachers to come back and teach in the schools

18    in May of 1992?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   How many?

21       A.   Well, that was the express order of the president of the

22    municipality, that all those who remained loyal to the former system could

23    stay and teach, but only a small number responded to this.  I don't know

24    the exact number.

25       Q.   None of the people who responded were Muslim; right?

Page 6813

 1       A.   There was Nasvija, there was Biba.  They were there for a day or

 2    two and then they disappeared.  And [redacted] came, well, RJ, but was not

 3    received by the director because there was some criteria left in place.

 4    Those who fled and came back, they cared.  So that there was Serbs who

 5    left and came back, but they were not given jobs.  Those who remained

 6    throughout, they got the jobs.

 7       Q.   So that was the test of loyalty then; if you fled, then you were

 8    disloyal?

 9       A.   Something like that.

10       Q.   Sir, you were in charge of getting -- recruiting teachers so you

11    certainly know what the criteria were; right?

12       A.   It wasn't I who was in charge, it was the principals, the acting

13    principals who had this task.  And I and my officer for military issues

14    drew up instructions for the work of the schools, and they were the ones

15    who were supposed to organise the work of the schools.

16       Q.   So I'm a little bit confused about what your job was

17    specifically.  Your job was not to recruit teachers?

18       A.   No.  My task was to contact the school principals and to organise

19    work, to prepare and give it to them, and then have them implement it.

20    That was inherited from the work organisation that was in place before.

21       Q.   So in other words, the job that you were doing during the war,

22    your wartime assignment, was very similar to the job that you were doing

23    just before the war as part of the work organisation; right?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   And, in fact, some of the teachers who were recruited to teach

Page 6814

 1    during this time were from neighbouring town and villages who were

 2    refugees in Foca; right?

 3       A.   They filled the vacancies.

 4       Q.   In May of 1992, you were able to move around the town of Foca;

 5    right?

 6       A.   We were able to move around, but there was no freedom until the

 7    end.  We were never free in the full sense of the word, but we did move

 8    around.

 9       Q.   The curfew you described was only from 8.00 p.m. until 6.00 in the

10    morning, but in the daytime you moved around freely; right?

11       A.   Yes.  You see, we moved -- I moved around in April, the 15th of

12    April, the 16th of April, but there was a danger that you might be shot by

13    a sniper.  It was never safe.

14       Q.   There were no legal restrictions?

15       A.   No, not by daytime.

16       Q.   You described your relationship with RJ, how you had been

17    colleagues for many years.  You saw him one day in May on the street;

18    right?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And RJ is a very friendly person; right?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   He had been away from Foca and had just come back; right?

23       A.   He left on the Sunday before the week when the shooting started.

24    I saw him when he was leaving.  He said he was going to take his children

25    away.  We said goodbye and he said he was coming back, but a long time

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Page 6816

 1    passed and he didn't come back.

 2       Q.   When you saw him on the street in May, he had just come back;

 3    right?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And he invited you to his house; right?

 6       A.   No.  No.  We just spoke briefly in the street and we said, "Okay,

 7    I'll see you around."  He didn't invite me and I didn't invite him.  It

 8    was just in passing, we stopped briefly.

 9       Q.   At some point, he ended up at your house, or he ended up at your

10    house later that night; right?

11       A.   In the evening, he called me and asked me if I would receive him.

12    He asked me.  I said "Yes, just come."

13       Q.   Because he wanted to see you, obviously.

14       A.   Well, probably because of that.  He expressed a wish and I

15    agreed.

16       Q.   It wouldn't have been safe for you to go to his house; right?

17       A.   Not at that time.  I think it wouldn't have been.  I would not

18    have dared.

19       Q.   That's because he's a Muslim and was exposed to danger; right?

20       A.   I don't know.  He expressed a wish to come and see me, and I

21    agreed.  I must say I wasn't very enthusiastic because of the situation,

22    but I did say he could come because we'd been friends for years.  We'd

23    grown up together even before school.

24       Q.   You weren't enthusiastic because he was a Muslim, and Muslims were

25    in danger at that point; right?

Page 6817

 1       A.   We were in danger too.  I was also in danger because someone could

 2    see me with him and that was dangerous, but I agreed.  There were people

 3    who wanted everything to be divided up.

 4       Q.   When RJ came to your house, he himself expressed his fear for his

 5    own safety, right, that he might be arrested?

 6       A.   Well, he assumed that that might happen.

 7       Q.   And he said that to Milorad Krnojelac because he knew that Milorad

 8    Krnojelac was already the warden of the KP Dom; right?  That was public

 9    knowledge at that point.

10       A.   Yes.  He knew Milorad said that neither he nor I could decide.  He

11    had nothing to do with it.

12       Q.   In fact, the specific way that RJ brought up the question was he

13    asked Milorad Krnojelac, "Mico, if I were arrested and brought to KP Dom,

14    would you invite me to coffee?"  And Mr. Krnojelac said, "That's not

15    possible."  That was the conversation; right?

16       A.   It's possible that there was some joking.  I left the room at some

17    points because I went to get drinks.  I don't think we discussed the

18    arrest seriously.  Milorad couldn't make any decisions about it, neither

19    could I.  Neither he nor I could help if, God forbid, it should happen.

20       Q.   And, in fact, the very next day, it did happen.  RJ was arrested

21    and taken to KP Dom?

22       A.   Yes.  To my deep regret, that's what happened.

23       Q.   At that night at your house, it was -- your wife's sister was also

24    present with her husband; right?

25       A.   No.

Page 6818

 1       Q.   There were other people present aside from the Krnojelacs and --

 2       A.   No.  No.  There was Krnojelac, Slavica, RJ, and [redacted], my wife and

 3    I, and no one else was there.  And on the day we met for the first time,

 4    [redacted] and I, my brother-in-law who you mentioned was there when we met in

 5    the street.

 6       Q.   Your brother-in-law Zdravko Begovic, right?

 7       A.   No, not Zdravko Begovic.  Milika.  That was someone else, who was

 8    a colleague of ours from school.  We met during the day.  He wasn't there

 9    in the evening.  That's wrong.

10       Q.   I'm sorry.  The transcript read that it was you and your

11    brother-in-law.  You said, "My brother-in-law who you mentioned," and so I

12    assumed that was Zdravko Begovic.  Is that inaccurate?

13       A.   No.  No, didn't say that.  I didn't say that.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Ms. Kuo, we've had this problem with in-laws before.

15    You might want to ask him the name of the person who was there.

16            MS. KUO:  Yes.

17       Q.   On the day when you met RJ on the street, who else was there?

18       A.   Milika was there, not Zdravko.

19       Q.   Milika?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   What is Milika's last name?

22       A.   Jaredic, Jaredic.

23       Q.   When RJ was arrested, the next day you didn't go to visit him

24    immediately at the KP Dom, did you?

25       A.   No.  No.

Page 6819

 1       Q.   And you know that he had not committed any crimes which would

 2    justify his arrest, right?

 3       A.   I didn't know that.

 4       Q.   You've never known RJ to be a criminal, have you?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   When did you visit RJ for the first time at the KP Dom?

 7       A.   I don't remember the date.  I think it was the end of May or

 8    June.  I don't remember.  I think it was June, but perhaps it could have

 9    been May.

10       Q.   If it were June, it would have been early June?

11       A.   I think so, yes.

12       Q.   And that was the time that you brought him heart medicine, right?

13       A.   Yes.  Yes.

14       Q.   You testified that when you visited, you went to see Milorad

15    Krnojelac.  That's because he was the warden, right?

16       A.   When I was with him at the hotel when he came back from Belgrade.

17       Q.   I'm asking about when you visited the KP Dom.  When you visited RJ

18    at the KP Dom, you went -- you asked for Milorad Krnojelac, right?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And you were able to meet him in the warden's office?

21       A.   Yes.  Yes, to go to him.  Yes.

22       Q.   You described how Milorad picked up a phone and called someone,

23    right, in order to have RJ brought?

24       A.   Yes.  Yes, to get approval for RJ to come.

25       Q.   You couldn't see who was on the other line, right, who was on the

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Page 6821

 1    other side of the telephone?

 2       A.   I assume it was Velecevo, but Milorad knows that.  Velecevo.

 3    Those were the military authorities there.

 4       Q.   I'm not asking you about assumptions, I'm only asking about what

 5    you were able to see or what you were able to hear.  You could not see who

 6    was on the other side of the telephone, right?

 7       A.   No, I couldn't.

 8       Q.   You couldn't see the number that Milorad Krnojelac dialed, could

 9    you?

10       A.   I didn't watch.  I could have seen it if I'd watched, but I

11    didn't.

12       Q.   You couldn't hear who was on the other line, on the other side of

13    the telephone, right?

14       A.   No.  No.  I didn't listen.

15       Q.   So you really have no idea of who it was that picked up the

16    telephone on the other end, right?

17       A.   Yes, but I learned later.

18       Q.   I'm only asking about what you were able to see when you were

19    there.  Shortly after Milorad Krnojelac made this phone call, a guard

20    brought RJ to the warden's office where you all were, right?

21       A.   I don't know who brought him because I didn't see that.  I was

22    inside the office.  Who escorted him to the office, I don't know.  I

23    didn't see that person.

24       Q.   Milorad Krnojelac himself did not go and bring RJ, somebody

25    brought RJ to you, right?

Page 6822

 1       A.   No.  He didn't go.  Somebody brought him, that's right.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Is that a convenient time?

 3            MS. KUO:  I'm sorry?

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Is that a convenient time?

 5            MS. KUO:  Yes it is.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  I remind you that next week we are being liberated

 7    from the shoe box and we are moving to the number I Court, and that Monday

 8    is Whit Monday here in the Netherlands, which is recognised by the United

 9    Nations, and it is also, I'm glad to see, the same holiday for the

10    Orthodoxes.

11            So we will resume on Tuesday at 9.30.

12                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

13                          at 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

14                          the 5th day of June, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.