Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6823

1 Tuesday, 5 June 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Krnojelac, we're in a new courtroom. Are

10 you able to hear the proceedings in a language which you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can follow.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The accused does not have a microphone.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I can

14 follow the proceedings and thank you for asking me. I'm happy to say a

15 word in this courtroom in what has been almost a year.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, thank you, Mr. Krnojelac.

17 Yes, Ms. Kuo, you're cross-examining.

18 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]

22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vukovic. Before the break, we were discussing

23 the visits you made to the KP Dom to visit your former colleague RJ.

24 During your first visit, you went with another colleague, Spomenka

25 Hamovic, and she brought medicine from RJ's wife for him, right?

Page 6824

1 A. No. She came to see me and asked me to join her and go and visit

2 and hand in those medicines.

3 Q. So RJ's wife gave the medicine to Mrs. Hamovic, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know why RJ's wife could not visit him herself at the KP

6 Dom?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. When you went to visit with Spomenka Hamovic, she also brought

9 bread and meat and strawberries for RJ; isn't that right?

10 A. I don't think so. She didn't bring anything but a pack of

11 cigarettes and some medication.

12 Q. RJ and Mrs. Hamovic were colleagues and very close when they

13 worked together at the school, isn't that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And Mrs. Hamovic is a compassionate person, right? She taught

16 handicapped children?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you went to visit and RJ was brought to the warden's office,

19 he immediately asked Milorad Krnojelac about the fate of Halim Konjo;

20 isn't that right?

21 A. No, he didn't ask him at all.

22 Q. And isn't it true that Mr. Krnojelac said, "Don't ask. He's

23 dead"?

24 A. That's not true.

25 Q. When Spomenka Hamovic heard this comment, she shuddered at the

Page 6825

1 thought of it, isn't that right, because --

2 A. She didn't hear that comment because it didn't happen. That

3 conversation did not take place.

4 Q. During that visit, at some point Mr. Krnojelac left the room,

5 right, because he had an official visit?

6 A. He left for a brief moment. I don't know why. We were talking

7 and probably he was considerate enough to leave us alone for a while. I

8 think actually he was ordering coffee when he went out.

9 Q. All four of you were colleagues together at the school, right?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. There were no reason for him to leave the three of you alone to

12 conduct any sort of private conversation, was there?

13 A. I don't think he did.

14 Q. When you met with RJ, he wanted to get out of KP Dom; isn't that

15 right?

16 A. No. He didn't want to get out because he couldn't get out. In

17 fact, he always wanted to get out but he couldn't. I mean RJ -- if I

18 understood you correctly, RJ always wanted to get out but he couldn't. He

19 even asked if we could help him get out, but neither Milorad nor I could

20 give him that sort of help because we had no say in any decision making,

21 and, of course, we would have gladly released him if we had been able to.

22 Q. But RJ did ask you and also Mr. Krnojelac for your help, right?

23 A. Yes. But we couldn't help him at all. He just asked, "Can you

24 help me?" We said, "No, we can't. I can't and Milorad can't. It doesn't

25 depend on us."

Page 6826

1 Q. You felt bad that RJ was in the KP Dom because you knew there was

2 nothing to justify his detention, right?

3 A. Well, I was hard hit by the fact that all of them were detained,

4 not only him. I didn't know whether they were guilty of anything. I

5 didn't know that RJ was guilty of anything, but I thought that if there

6 had been anything, he would prove that he wasn't guilty of anything.

7 Q. You said if you could have helped him, you would have helped him.

8 A. Yes, I would have gladly helped him.

9 Q. You -- on this visit when RJ asked for help in being released, you

10 yourself asked Milorad Krnojelac if he could exert any impact so that RJ

11 could be discharged, right?

12 A. Yes, I did ask, and he said he couldn't help at all because he

13 didn't have a say in it.

14 Q. So before that moment, you yourself thought that Milorad Krnojelac

15 had power to impact RJ's release. Otherwise, you wouldn't have asked,

16 right?

17 A. No. I knew that he couldn't. It's just that we were answering

18 [redacted] question at the same time. I said he couldn't, and he said at the

19 same time that he couldn't either. I even knew that we could not arrange

20 a visit, so we took a roundabout way of doing it.

21 Q. I'll direct you to the statement that you gave to Defence

22 investigators on February 17th of this year. It's paragraph 6. You

23 discussed how you went on your first visit to deliver the heart medicine,

24 and you stated, "I then asked Mico" meaning Mr. Krnojelac, "whether he

25 could exert any impact so that RJ could be discharged." So you yourself

Page 6827

1 asked Mr. Krnojelac if he could exert any impact and then he told you no.

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. On your second visit to RJ, you went with Milisa Dakic, who is a

4 cousin of RJ's wife, right?

5 A. No. He's not a cousin of his wife, [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted].

8 Q. He was very close with RJ, right?

9 A. Well, [redacted], of course they were

10 close.

11 Q. This was -- did you know where Mr. Dakic lived during this time?

12 He was in Foca still, right?

13 A. No, he left Foca a long time ago.

14 Q. When you met Mr. Dakic, where was that? I mean when you made the

15 plans to go visit RJ together.

16 A. We met downtown in front of the grill bar. We went in for a drink

17 and sat there for a while, and among other things, he asked me after

18 [redacted]. I didn't know until then that he had lived in that house and I

19 didn't know they were friends. But I told him about [redacted], that he had

20 been arrested, and he asked, "Can we visit him?" I said no, and in any

21 case, you have to arrange it at Velecevo with the military authorities,

22 and if you get their approval, then you can go. And that is exactly what

23 he did. And the next day, he informed me that we could go there together,

24 and we did.

25 Q. Let me remind you that you should refer to your former colleague

Page 6828

1 by "RJ." When you met Mr. Dakic and he asked after RJ --

2 A. I apologise.

3 Q. -- you had just been to visit him not too long ago, right, at the

4 KP Dom?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you went to visit KP Dom that time, you did not -- you went

7 directly to the KP Dom. You didn't go first to Velecevo, did you?

8 A. He had been to Velecevo, Dakic did.

9 Q. I'm asking about the first visit. When you went with

10 Mrs. Hamovic, you did not go to Velecevo first, you simply went to the KP

11 Dom, right?

12 A. No, we didn't. That's true.

13 Q. Yet when Mr. Dakic asked about visiting, you said that you could

14 not visit RJ. That's not true, is it? You did. You just visited him.

15 A. I told him you couldn't go there.

16 Q. Mr. Dakic had military connections at Velecevo, and those were the

17 connections that you said he used, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In fact, Mr. Dakic was the person who eventually arranged for RJ

20 to be released, right?

21 A. I don't know. I don't know about that. He promised that he would

22 try to do whatever he could. Because Mico and I were not able to do

23 anything, so he promised that if there was anything he could do, he would

24 do it. But we didn't hear from each other since. He left at that time.

25 Q. So you don't actually know whether Mr. Dakic arranged for RJ's

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Page 6830

1 release or not, right?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. In fact, you don't know at all who arranged for RJ's release, do

4 you?

5 A. No. I assume it was Dakic, but I don't know. I had no access to

6 such information.

7 Q. What was Mr. Dakic doing during this time when you met him? What

8 was his -- why was he even in Foca?

9 A. I think he had come to visit his own family.

10 Q. When -- you said that Dakic was the one who arranged the visit by

11 going to his military connections in Velecevo, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You're saying that at that time, you had already told Mr. Dakic

14 that Mr. Krnojelac did not have any power to arrange for visits, right?

15 A. I think he couldn't exert any influence. That's why I told him to

16 go and arrange it up there.

17 Q. When Dakic, Mr. Dakic, heard that RJ was being held at the KP Dom,

18 he was unhappy about it or surprised, right?

19 A. No, I don't think he was particularly surprised.

20 Q. But he was close enough friends with RJ that he asked if you

21 could, if you could visit RJ, and in fact, the next day you went, right?

22 A. No, he didn't ask me to go. I just agreed to go with him if that

23 was allowed. I wanted to avail myself of the opportunity to visit [redacted]

24 together with him because I couldn't find another opportunity.

25 Q. When Mr. Dakic went to Velecevo, he did not ask the military

Page 6831

1 authorities to have RJ released, did he? I mean before you went to the KP

2 Dom.

3 A. I don't know about such things. I didn't go with him up there.

4 Q. In fact, when you went to visit the KP Dom this time, you also

5 went to see Milorad Krnojelac in the warden's office, right, before RJ

6 could be brought to you?

7 A. [No translation].

8 Q. And when RJ was brought to you and you all met in Mr. Krnojelac's

9 warden's office, Mr. Dakic also asked Mr. Krnojelac if he could discharge

10 RJ; isn't that right?

11 A. No. He received us in this other office, the auxiliary one, the

12 one we used the first time.

13 Q. You mean the deputy warden's office which is attached to the

14 larger warden's office, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... fact that the office

17 Mr. Krnojelac was using was the big warden's office; it's just that you

18 were using -- he let you use the deputy warden's office for the visit,

19 right?

20 A. I don't know if it was smaller, but it was a pretty private

21 office. That's where we sat and that's where RJ came when he came.

22 Q. So you're saying you never went into the larger warden's office?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. Never?

25 A. No.

Page 6832

1 Q. So if there were a machine-gun there, pointed out at the

2 prisoners' quarters, you wouldn't have seen it, would you? You weren't

3 there.

4 A. I didn't see anything.

5 Q. You weren't there in that office, the warden's office?

6 A. Well, I cannot remember now whether I peeked in there first before

7 going into the other office.

8 Q. When you met with Mr. Krnojelac and Mr. Dakic -- sorry?

9 JUDGE HUNT: We don't seem to have a translation of that answer.

10 MS. KUO:

11 Q. Sir, you started to say something and I interrupted you with a

12 question. Could you repeat or tell us what you were going to say.

13 A. I know I went into this office where the secretary was, and then

14 this other office into which he showed us was right next to the first

15 one. I remember peeking into his office first and then he waved his hand

16 sort of and showed me to go into the other one.

17 Q. And it was during this time when you peeked into his office that

18 you're sure you never saw any machine-gun; is that what you're telling

19 us?

20 A. I didn't see that anywhere.

21 Q. When you learned -- or you've told us that you heard that

22 Mr. Krnojelac did not have any authority to release or effect the release

23 of detainees, you were surprised, right?

24 A. Well, no. I wasn't really surprised by anything during that

25 entire war. I had sort of accepted everything as it came. He was the one

Page 6833

1 who admitted prisoners and released them but he had no say in anything.

2 He couldn't even approve a visit, because if he could have, he would have

3 approved a visit for my sake. He wouldn't have waited for Dakic or

4 anybody else to ask.

5 Q. Normally a warden does have say in his -- in the running of the

6 prison, right? He has authority over the entire prison, normally?

7 A. Yes, but this was not a prison entirely under his purview. There

8 was a military part controlled by the military authorities and there was

9 this other part which he was in charge of, and that included the Drina

10 Economic Unit, the farm, et cetera, the production of food, which was very

11 much needed, and taking care of that is the first task he ever received

12 from the executive council, as far as I know.

13 Q. Mr. Vukovic, you never asked Mr. Krnojelac to visit RJ and were

14 refused, were you?

15 A. Well, I did ask once before if I could come and visit, and he

16 said, "No, no, don't even try. I can't decide about that."

17 Q. He didn't tell you where you could go to make the arrangements,

18 did he?

19 A. I didn't really insist.

20 Q. He didn't tell you to go to the military authorities, did he?

21 A. No. I didn't ask about that even because it was dangerous to go

22 anywhere and intervene and ask to go and visit.

23 Q. Mr. Krnojelac himself never offered to you that if you wanted to

24 have anything done, you had to go, you or someone else had to go to the

25 military, right? He never said that to you.

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Page 6835

1 A. No. We never discussed that topic at all.

2 Q. Mr. Krnojelac knew exactly whom to go to, to see whether detainees

3 could be released, didn't he?

4 A. I don't know whether he knew.

5 Q. Well, he forwarded requests from Muslim detainees to be released

6 to the proper authorities, didn't he?

7 A. I don't know. I didn't work at the KP Dom.

8 Q. When Mr. Krnojelac told RJ in your presence that he couldn't help

9 him, that wasn't true, right? Mr. Krnojelac knew exactly where to go and

10 who had authority over these detainees; isn't that right?

11 A. I don't know about that. He may have known, but I don't know.

12 Q. When Mr. Dakic and you and Mr. Krnojelac met with RJ, isn't it

13 true that Mr. Krnojelac gave Mr. Dakic the phone number of somebody at the

14 Crisis Staff for him to contact regarding RJ's release?

15 A. No, he didn't give him anything because Milisa Dakic offered to

16 try and arrange it of his own accord, because both Mico and I answered

17 [redacted] that we couldn't do anything. And then Dakic said, "I will try."

18 Where he was supposed to go and try, we didn't know. We didn't ask.

19 Q. Sir, are you absolutely sure that Milorad Krnojelac never gave

20 Milisa Dakic the phone number of the Crisis Staff?

21 A. I'm absolutely certain, because Milisa had been up there in this

22 staff before.

23 Q. Mr. Vukovic, when you met with RJ on those occasions, it was clear

24 to you that RJ thought that Mr. Krnojelac could help him, right?

25 A. No, no. He didn't think anything of the kind because as soon as

Page 6836

1 he heard my reply and his reply, he knew that we couldn't do anything and

2 he didn't insist any further. He knew that if we could have, we would

3 have helped him.

4 Q. It was clear to you that RJ thought Milorad Krnojelac knew what

5 was happening to detainees at the KP Dom and asked him about it, right?

6 A. I think he didn't know because he didn't ask anything apart from

7 whether he could help him. I don't think he asked any other questions.

8 Q. Isn't it true that RJ asked Mr. Krnojelac in your presence about

9 what happened to a group of detainees who disappeared overnight?

10 A. That conversation did not take place. He didn't ask him anything

11 in our presence.

12 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Krnojelac told RJ, "Don't ask. I don't

13 know"?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Sir, you were living in Foca during this time, not inside the KP

16 Dom, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So you were in a position or, at least, in a better position than

19 RJ to know what was going on around town, right?

20 A. In town what was going on? Yes. But what happened in prison, I

21 didn't know about that.

22 Q. And RJ asked you to tell him things about what was happening in

23 town because he was inside the prison and couldn't know, right?

24 A. Well, he didn't ask me. We didn't talk about anything.

25 Q. How long were these visits with RJ?

Page 6837

1 A. While we would have a cup of coffee; very short.

2 Q. And during that whole time, you never talked about what was

3 happening in the KP Dom?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Sir, there was never a time when Milorad Krnojelac was absent from

6 the KP Dom for an extended period of time, right?

7 A. Well, he was away for a longer period of time when his son had had

8 his accident and when he was in Belgrade. I don't know exactly for how

9 long he was absent, perhaps 15 or 20 days, something like that. I don't

10 know exactly. It's a longer period of time.

11 Q. Did RJ ever ask you about this period of time when Milorad

12 Krnojelac was absent, where he had gone?

13 A. Well, we didn't even talk. How could we talk about that when he

14 was detained and I was a free man? We had only those two contacts.

15 Q. Were those contacts before or after Mr. Krnojelac went to visit

16 his son?

17 A. I think that one was before and the other one was after.

18 Q. So you're saying that during this period of time when

19 Mr. Krnojelac was visiting his son, that was not a period of time that RJ

20 asked about why Mr. Krnojelac was not at the KP Dom, right? That's not --

21 he never asked you about that time.

22 A. Well, he could not ask me. How could he ask me when I did not

23 have contact with him when Milorad was absent? So he could not have asked

24 me even if he had wanted to. So it's impossible.

25 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you to reason things out or to use your logic.

Page 6838

1 I'm just asking you factual questions. So the answer is no, he never

2 asked you, right?

3 You -- in your meetings or in your -- during your coffee visits to

4 RJ, you told RJ that Milorad Krnojelac had no power to help him and that,

5 in fact, Mr. Krnojelac was dissatisfied with his job, right?

6 A. That's what he told him, that he could not help him. And I said

7 to him that I could not help him either.

8 Q. Isn't it true that you told RJ that Milorad Krnojelac was

9 dissatisfied with his job?

10 A. Well, we didn't talk about that. How could we talk about that?

11 Milorad was present there.

12 Q. You once told RJ that Milorad Krnojelac had run away to the

13 countryside, right?

14 A. I never said that to him.

15 Q. This was all part of the story that you were trying to present to

16 RJ, that Milorad Krnojelac did not want to be warden and was forced to be

17 warden, right?

18 A. I had two visits with RJ. Both took place with Milorad being

19 nearby, so I couldn't say anything in his name.

20 Q. As part of the story also, you even told RJ that Milorad Krnojelac

21 tried to kill himself because he was so dissatisfied with the job. Isn't

22 that right?

23 A. That's nonsense. That's nonsense. I could not have said that.

24 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never did try to get out of his job, did he?

25 A. Well, he did talk to me about it a few times, that it was a very

Page 6839













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Page 6840

1 difficult job for him, that he'd be glad to leave it. And once he even

2 said to Mladjenovic that he would not do this job any more.

3 Q. And the reasons he gave for not wanting to do the job were that it

4 was a hard job at his age, right?

5 A. Well, it was a hard job to do at that time because food supplies

6 had to be provided and you had nothing to pay with. And then you'd have

7 to get food in exchange for cattle or cattle feed or something. It's very

8 difficult.

9 Q. The question is not whether in fact it was a hard job or not, the

10 question was how Mr. Milorad Krnojelac felt about it. He --

11 A. He explained, he explained the job in the following way, that it

12 was difficult.

13 Q. Okay. I don't need to have another job description from you. The

14 question was, Mr. Krnojelac said he was dissatisfied with the job only

15 because he said it was hard, not because he disagreed with any of the

16 politics of it, right?

17 A. Well, it's not only a question of politics. He explained this to

18 me because I understood that job, that it was hard for him to do that job.

19 Q. It was hard for him to do the job because there was so much to do,

20 right?

21 A. Well, that's probably the case, too, but one of the reasons was

22 that he said, "I, such an old man, have to go and to beg people for

23 help."

24 Q. He never once said to you, "I disagree with the policy of the

25 Muslims being detained here and that's why I want to get out of the job,"

Page 6841

1 right? He never once said that to you?

2 A. Well, listen, he and I thought along the same lines before as

3 well, and that is that nobody should be detained without an indictment,

4 and these were times of war and these people were separated from the rest,

5 and that didn't belong to him either. He was in charge of the convicts

6 who were already serving their sentences, and he had to provide food for

7 them, to organise their activities and things like that. That required

8 quite a bit of work.

9 Q. So the answer is no, he never said that to you, right?

10 A. What do you mean? What did he never say to me?

11 Q. My question to you was whether Mr. Krnojelac ever told you he

12 disagreed with the Muslims being detained there, as a reason for him

13 wanting to get out of the job. And I take it from your answer that the

14 answer is no, he never said that to you.

15 A. No, we talked but that was not within his job. We were talking

16 about whether we agreed or disagreed. We did not talk about the job in

17 that way, no.

18 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never took any steps to get himself removed from his

19 job, did he?

20 A. Well, yes. I'm telling you right now that he said to Mladjenovic

21 that he couldn't do that job any more, that it was not for him.

22 Q. That was in June of 1993, more than a year later; isn't that

23 right?

24 A. That was, I don't know, June, July, 1992, yes.

25 Q. In July of 1993, one of the Muslim detainees escaped KP Dom; isn't

Page 6842

1 that right?

2 A. I don't know about that.

3 Q. When precisely was Milorad Krnojelac removed as warden?

4 A. Well, I said that it was August 1993. However, it was shown

5 exactly here in court last time that it was the 1st of July 1993.

6 However, my impression was that it was August, because of his coming to

7 school, that is.

8 Q. When did he come to school?

9 A. He came to school on the 4th of September 1994.

10 Q. We are talking about 1993, sir. You don't know exactly when

11 Mr. Krnojelac was removed as warden in 1993, do you?

12 A. Last time, what was presented here was the 1st of July, and I

13 thought it was August because I know that he waited for a job for a year.

14 Q. In fact, after the 1st of July 1993, Mr. Krnojelac continued to go

15 to the KP Dom, right?

16 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that.

17 Q. Mr. Krnojelac -- you told us that finally in 1993, in June,

18 Mr. Krnojelac asked Mr. Mladjenovic to be removed from his position.

19 Mr. Krnojelac never told you anything about the Department of Defence

20 contacting him, did he?

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic?

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I object because the witness said that

24 in June or July 1992, he submitted a request to Mladjenovic, and my

25 learned friend has been saying that it was in 1993, but the witness said

Page 6843

1 1992.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Let's just see about that.

3 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I see --

4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, page 16, line 23 does say 1992.

5 MS. KUO: I stand corrected, Your Honour. I misheard it.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

7 MS. KUO:

8 Q. You're saying that the request was made as early as 1992. That

9 request was never repeated in 1993, right?

10 A. Well, possibly, but we never discussed that subject. Why would he

11 repeat all of that to me again?

12 Q. During the year or so that you claim Mr. Krnojelac waited on this

13 request, he did nothing further to make sure that he could be removed from

14 the job, right? That was the only thing he did, one request?

15 A. I stated about this once when he asked for that, but he probably

16 asked several times. Why would he keep telling me, "I've asked for this,

17 I've asked for this," et cetera, et cetera? Who was I to him so that he

18 would have to report to me all the time?

19 Q. You don't actually know whether he made any further requests after

20 that, do you?

21 A. I've already answered that the first time. Why would I repeat my

22 answer?

23 Q. Sir, the first time you said he probably did make requests, and I

24 just want to make sure because you told us he never talked to you about

25 it. If he never talked to you about it, you don't know. That's the

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Page 6845

1 honest answer, right?

2 A. We had very few contacts from Saint Nikolas Day 1992 until the

3 summer of 1993, because I was taken to the front line to stand guard

4 actually at the village of Brusna.

5 Q. When is Saint Nikolas Day, or when was it in --

6 A. The 19th of December, 1992. When the massacre was committed at

7 Josanica, I was mobilised then and then I was taken to the front line.

8 Q. From June until that time, you were in a position to meet with

9 Mr. Krnojelac, even just being around town?

10 A. Perhaps we met, but I'm not sure that we did.

11 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never told you -- and the answer to this is just a

12 yes or a no, okay? Mr. Krnojelac, during the entire time from June or

13 July of 1992 until he was removed as warden in the summer of 1993, never

14 once told you he made any requests to be removed, except for that one,

15 right?

16 A. It's hard for me to remember whether there were other

17 conversations about that subject. I think that I got the impression that

18 he did not want that. Was it from one conversation or two or three, I

19 could not state that precisely right now. You know, it's been a very long

20 time ago.

21 Q. Mr. Vukovic, you're absolutely sure that Mr. Krnojelac made this

22 single request in June or July of 1992, not 1993, right?

23 A. I'm sure that he made it then, but he did later too, I think.

24 Q. Ah, okay. Why don't you tell us about that now? Now you're

25 telling us he made another request. Tell us about that other request.

Page 6846

1 When was it?

2 A. I can't remember.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise for

4 interrupting my learned friend. However, I think that the appropriate --

5 that the interpretation was inappropriate. The witness said that probably

6 he asked later. He did not say decidedly that he asked for it; he

7 thinks.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Can you tell me where? I'm looking for it in the

9 transcript.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Just a minute,

11 please. Page 19, line 22.

12 JUDGE HUNT: But the transcript reads that, "He did later, too, I

13 think." And the question is, "Now, you're telling us he made another

14 request." Is that the difference you want to draw? I couldn't see any

15 word "probable," that's why I asked you.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. The

17 witness said that later he probably made requests, and that is not what

18 the interpretation said. And then my learned friend asked ...

19 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, then you say the interpretation is

20 wrong at line 22. It says, "But he did later, too, I think"; it was, "He

21 probably did."

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: That means we'll have to check through the

24 interpreters.

25 MS. KUO: I accept that there's more ambiguity to it than I

Page 6847

1 assumed.

2 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Ms. Kuo, you'd better ask the question

3 again.

4 MS. KUO:

5 Q. On what basis do you think he probably made another request?

6 Certainly not because he told you himself, right?

7 A. I got that impression, that he did not want that job, probably on

8 the basis of several conversations with him.

9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never told you that anything the Department of

10 Defence did prompted his desire to leave the job, did he? I meant the

11 Ministry of Defence.

12 A. We did not discuss that subject.

13 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never told you that he had no idea what was going on

14 at KP Dom regarding the Muslim detainees, did he?

15 A. Yes. He said to me that he did not know about that.

16 Q. So Mr. Krnojelac never told you that he met on a regular basis or,

17 rather, frequently with Muslim detainees? He never told you that, did he?

18 A. He told me once that outside, a group of them had passed by him

19 and among that group was a neighbour of his, and that it was very

20 unpleasant for him to see them there on that other side.

21 Q. But Mr. Krnojelac specifically told you that he didn't know at all

22 what was happening about Muslim detainees being abused or mistreated at

23 the KP Dom, right?

24 A. He said to me that that was a separate part of the KP Dom that was

25 given for these prisoners, and that he had nothing to do with that, and

Page 6848

1 that he could not exercise any influence over their detention or release

2 or whatever, that practically, he had nothing to do with them.

3 Q. My question was -- I understand what you're saying about the

4 influence that Mr. Krnojelac had or not, but my question was about his

5 knowledge. He knew what was happening with the Muslim detainees being

6 abused and mistreated, right?

7 A. No, no. How could I know? He never talked to me about that. He

8 did not talk about that part of the prison at all. He did not talk about

9 these detainees.

10 Q. He never told you -- but in fact, detainees like RJ did tell

11 Mr. Krnojelac what was happening in terms of people being abused and

12 mistreated, right? Even in your presence.

13 A. Well, I don't know about that. I don't know about that. Not in

14 my presence. In my presence, no, never.

15 Q. When you talked with Mr. Krnojelac, did he ever express any

16 dissatisfaction with how the Muslims -- how the military presence in the

17 KP Dom was affecting his job?

18 A. We did not discuss that subject. He said to me that he had

19 nothing to do with that over there, and there was no need to discuss it

20 any further.

21 Q. So Mr. Krnojelac never told you that he met -- that he habitually

22 met with the more prominent members of the Muslim community who were

23 detained in the KP Dom, did he? He never told you that?

24 A. No, except for this case that he mentioned when they passed by

25 him.

Page 6849













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Page 6850

1 Q. Did you know [redacted]?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never mentioned that he met with [redacted], did

4 he?

5 A. No, we didn't talk about that. We didn't talk about that at all.

6 Q. [redacted]

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You knew he was detained at the KP Dom, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never told you that he met with [redacted], did he?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know Husein Lojo?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never told you that he met with him when he was

15 detained at the KP Dom, did he?

16 A. No, no. No, I told you, we did not discuss that subject at all.

17 Q. When you were trying -- the two times that you went to visit the

18 KP Dom, neither time did anybody tell you that you had to go through Savo

19 Todovic, did they?

20 A. No.

21 Q. No one ever told you that Savo Todovic was in charge of the

22 military part of the prison, did they?

23 A. No, no one did.

24 Q. Now, you were good friends with Milorad Krnojelac before, during,

25 and after the war, right?

Page 6851

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In fact, during the war, there were -- you were -- you had many

3 opportunities and, in fact, you were together quite often, right?

4 A. No, no. We met very seldom. Our jobs took us apart, and we moved

5 in different directions.

6 Q. When Mr. Krnojelac was -- did Mr. Krnojelac ever discuss to you

7 the circumstances under which he was given this work assignment?

8 A. Yes. We commented upon that. He said that he got a work

9 obligation to become the director of Drina in the KP Dom, and I told him I

10 got a work obligation as well and that we both had to accept that,

11 regardless of the extent to which we liked this or not.

12 Q. When you received your work obligation, nobody accompanied you

13 personally to your assignment, right? You were given the assignment and

14 then you went to that place by yourself.

15 A. I stayed with my work obligation at the job that I was doing

16 before the war to organise the functioning of schools, and I remained in

17 that area until Saint Nikolas Day, that is to say, the 19th of December,

18 1992.

19 Q. I meant the day that you received your assignment, nobody

20 personally escorted you to that workplace, did they?

21 A. I just got an assignment. I remained at the place where I was.

22 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never told you during this conversation when he said

23 he accepted his position reluctantly, that someone physically took him to

24 the KP Dom immediately, right? He never told you that.

25 A. I think that he went to the KP Dom in a car. I don't know whether

Page 6852

1 it was in the presence of the president of the municipality or the

2 president of the executive council or someone.

3 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never said to you that he felt like he was being

4 taken prisoner and being forced to work at the KP Dom as if he were a

5 prisoner, right? He never said that to you.

6 A. Well, he didn't say as prisoner. He felt unpleasant about taking

7 over an important position, and those were the comments that he was

8 making, not that he was being taken prisoner.

9 Q. So when you said you were forced to take this work assignment and

10 Mr. Krnojelac was forced to take his assignment, you didn't really mean

11 actual physical force, that he was forced to take the assignment. It was

12 more sort of in an obligation kind of way, right?

13 A. Obligation, yes, because failure to fulfil an obligation meant

14 going to prison, because those who failed to do their military service

15 went to prison. They were subject to punishment.

16 Q. So this was a military assignment for Mr. Krnojelac, wasn't it?

17 A. Yes. Everything was an obligation then. It was a military --

18 sorry, no. It was a work obligation. That's as far as he and I were

19 concerned. Other people were summoned, were called up into the army, and

20 we were too old to be -- to do active military service.

21 Q. Sir, this was wartime, right?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. And everybody during wartime has obligations, right?

24 A. Yes, but not everybody had the same obligations. Those who were

25 older than 50 did not have the same obligations as those under 50.

Page 6853

1 Everyone falls within a certain category. So that the youngest people

2 went to the front line and older people remained in the rear. They did

3 their work duty.

4 Q. And someone had to coordinate how each person would do the job,

5 right? There were authorities that would coordinate that, decide who

6 would go where; isn't that right?

7 A. That was the executive council of the municipal assembly which

8 decided who did military service -- who did their work obligation, and the

9 military authorities decided who to send to the front line and put into

10 combat units.

11 Q. But during wartime, the military and the civilian authorities must

12 cooperate; isn't that right?

13 A. I suppose so.

14 Q. And this, you understood, was your military -- I understand you're

15 not at the front line, but nevertheless, because it's wartime, it is a

16 military obligation for you to do your work duty, right?

17 A. That work duty was on par with military duty. If anybody failed

18 to fulfil their work duty, they would go to prison.

19 Q. In your job during this wartime, before you went to the front, you

20 were coordinating reopening the schools, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you worked with an officer for military issues in close

23 cooperation to get the schools reopened, right?

24 A. No. I received an assignment from the president of the

25 municipality to organise the work of schools.

Page 6854













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Page 6855

1 Q. But you had an officer for military issues working with you,

2 right?

3 A. Oh, no. That was at my enterprise. There was a military sort of

4 clerk who worked there. If you mean the statement I gave earlier?

5 Q. When you had this officer, the clerk that you said, the military

6 clerk, that was during the war?

7 A. No. That was before the war. We had a clerk for defence and

8 protection. That was his title.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, it may be that the acoustics in this room

10 are greater than we are used to, but your voice is very intrusive. If you

11 want to talk to Mr. Bakrac, may I suggest you sit closer to him so you

12 don't have to shout? Did you want to take an objection to something?

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I was just

14 discussing with my colleague that the answer of the witness was not

15 recorded, to the effect this clerk had this duty before the war, but he

16 made his point again in his next answer to my learned friend's question,

17 so it makes no more difference for the record.

18 JUDGE HUNT: That's good to hear, but, please, when you are

19 discussing with Mr. Bakrac, I'm sure you are diverting the witness - not

20 intentionally, but you are - because he can hear it and he can understand

21 it. So just speak a little bit more quietly, please.

22 Yes, Ms. Kuo?

23 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. Vukovic, did this clerk --

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll take

Page 6856

1 care.

2 MS. KUO:

3 Q. Mr. Vukovic, did this clerk for military affairs stay on and

4 continue working with you during the war?

5 A. Yes. At the time when we were making preparations for the

6 reopening of schools, he was still with me at the enterprise.

7 Q. And you -- in September of 1992, you returned to the Veselin

8 Maslesa school where you had been principal years before, right?

9 A. Yes. On the 16th of August, I organised the work of schools

10 because we had finished the previous school year prematurely, so we

11 started school on the 16th of August. Since there was no maths teacher, I

12 was assigned to be the maths teacher, and my work at my enterprise was

13 placed on hold indefinitely.

14 Q. The discussions about having a math teacher assigned took place

15 after June and July of 1992, right? They continued after that time?

16 A. No. In August 1992, we started working at the school, and there

17 was a math teacher, a lady, who worked until the 15th of September. And

18 then with -- having received a work order starting with the 1st of

19 September, I transferred from my enterprise to the school to work as the

20 math teacher. I received this assignment from the military department to

21 work at the school starting with the 1st of September.

22 Q. In other words, the decision for you to become a math teacher at

23 the school was not made until August or September of 1992, right?

24 A. No, not at the Veselin Maslesa school. I got assigned to be the

25 acting teacher as of 1st September 1992. Because the schools had finished

Page 6857

1 early, the previous year, in May, so they started early the next school

2 year, on the 16th of August, to try and catch up.

3 Q. And the authority that assigned you to this work was the Serbian

4 Municipality of Foca, the school administration itself, right?

5 A. The school administration, yes. The acting director issued this

6 order and signed it, and he was told to do so by the Secretariat for

7 National Defence, I suppose. They sort of indicated who could be assigned

8 to this work. The president of the municipality approved that my work at

9 my enterprise be placed on hold, sort of, so that I could transfer to the

10 school.

11 Q. So it was the Ministry of Defence that made this decision

12 ultimately; isn't that right?

13 A. I don't know who passed this decision on to the acting school

14 director, but that's the way it was handed to me.

15 Q. The Ministry of Defence had to be notified as well that you had

16 been given this assignment; isn't that right?

17 A. Probably. The acting director probably informed them.

18 Q. You've said "probably." I'd like to show you what's Exhibit D112,

19 which has already been entered into evidence.

20 MS. KUO: You may place that on the ELMO.

21 Q. Mr. Vukovic, if you look at the very bottom of this document,

22 where there are a list of people to whom copies need to be sent, there is

23 number 1, the person named, that's you; number 2, the school archives; and

24 number 3, the Ministry of Defence, Foca section, right?

25 A. Well, if you look at this, everything is clear. You can see that

Page 6858

1 it's the way I said it. The acting director signed this and ordered me to

2 be transferred there.

3 Q. So it's not "probably," it's for certain that the Ministry of

4 Defence needed to be notified, right?

5 A. Well, that's not within my competence. It's within the competence

6 of the acting director. I didn't follow his work.

7 Q. So I'm just asking about the document. You've told us that when

8 you see the document, it makes clear to you he did have to be notified,

9 and I'm just asking you to confirm that.

10 A. I cannot confirm whether the acting director notified someone or

11 not. I said that I got the decision. Whether it was copied to the

12 Secretariat of Defence or anybody else, I cannot know that.

13 Q. Thank you. When you were teaching at the school, you did not

14 report in uniform, military uniform, did you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You wore civilian clothes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And all the students, obviously, were civilians as well. None of

19 them were soldiers, right?

20 A. There were people who were refugees and had nothing to put on.

21 There were some people like that, even among teachers. Some wore shirts

22 which actually belonged to military uniforms. There were children who

23 also wore anything they could find.

24 Q. Are you telling us that children in the primary school reported in

25 military uniforms?

Page 6859













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6860

1 A. I mean to say that there were cases like that, too, but in

2 general, of course, we tried -- we, the teachers, tried to wear civilian

3 clothes, and children wore whatever they put their hands on. We didn't

4 really worry much about that, whether we were wearing this or that. The

5 important thing was to be dressed somehow.

6 Q. I'm afraid that you've misunderstood my question. The question

7 was whether the students in this primary school reported in military

8 uniform. That was the impression that I thought you were trying to give.

9 The students did not report in military uniform, did they?

10 A. There were cases like that, children who wore parts of military

11 uniform, be it shoes or shirts or trousers. And we never returned --

12 turned anyone back home just because he was dressed like that.

13 Q. And even some of the teachers wore military uniforms, right?

14 A. No, not full military uniforms, but there were teachers who wore

15 military shirts under their sweaters. There were teachers like that.

16 Q. You told us that Milorad Krnojelac left the KP Dom in the summer

17 of 1993 but was not assigned to become the headmaster of the school until

18 September of 1994. And in your statement to Defence investigators, you

19 refer to this time when Mr. Krnojelac did not have an assignment as a form

20 of punishment for his hardly waiting to leave KP Dom. Can you tell us

21 what you meant by that?

22 A. Well, it was my assumption, because he didn't find another job for

23 a whole year. I suppose that was one of the reasons. Another reason was

24 that he wanted to come back to school because he liked that job and he

25 often said that. And since they couldn't find a job for him for a long

Page 6861

1 time, I came to the conclusion that some pressure was exerted to keep it

2 that way because he had asked to leave the Dom.

3 Q. During this time, you're aware that Milorad Krnojelac was not sent

4 to the front line, right?

5 A. Yes, I know that he was not. Not as far as I know, at least. And

6 even by his age, he wasn't in the category that was subject to being sent

7 to the front.

8 Q. He also was not forced to do any other kind of job, any kind of

9 menial labour, for instance, right?

10 A. No, that didn't happen. It would have been illogical for him to

11 become a menial worker after being director of the Drina enterprise. That

12 would have been inappropriate.

13 Q. That would have been insulting to him, isn't that right?

14 A. Well, I don't think he would have taken it as an insult, but --

15 because he was ready to work.

16 Q. During this time, Mr. Krnojelac's family remained in Foca, right?

17 A. Yes, they remained in Foca.

18 Q. He was able to stay in the apartment where he was staying at that

19 time, the one that used to belong to Dr. Sostevic, right?

20 A. You mean Sosevic. Yes, that's where he was.

21 Q. His family was never punished because of this, during this year,

22 right?

23 A. I don't think he was, unless being jobless was a punishment.

24 Q. And in fact, during this whole time when Mr. Krnojelac was

25 jobless, he got credit for social security purposes up till the day before

Page 6862

1 he started as headmaster of the school in 1994, right?

2 A. I don't think anybody got credit for social security purposes

3 during that period, not those who worked and not those who didn't work.

4 Q. In September of 1994, Mr. Krnojelac was able to return to the

5 school where he had worked before, right?

6 A. Yes. Even back in April 1994 he was able to return because that

7 director, who had actually been acting director, retired. But since he

8 was waiting for a teacher's vacancy until September and none appeared

9 before the beginning of the school year, he accepted that job, finally.

10 But he could have returned even in April.

11 Q. So what you're saying is that between April and September 1994,

12 Mr. Krnojelac remained voluntarily jobless because it wasn't the job he

13 wanted, right? He was waiting for the job he wanted.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. As principal, Mr. Krnojelac had permanent contact with

16 representatives of the International Community, including members of the

17 military who were there, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. During this time, Mr. Krnojelac himself expressed concern that he

20 might be on the list of indicted persons by this Tribunal for war crimes,

21 isn't that right?

22 A. No. If he had been concerned about that, he wouldn't have

23 communicated or socialised with them. He wouldn't have received such

24 visits or talked to them.

25 Q. When you gave a statement to Defence investigators, you told them

Page 6863

1 that -- and I'll just quote it; it's in the next-to-last paragraph -- "I

2 remember that he asked me last summer -" and "he" is Mr. Krnojelac - "what

3 I thought of the idea that he asked Major Hans Time whether he was on the

4 list." That was the list of indicted persons from this Tribunal, right?

5 A. We were talking once in a wider circle of people when Kunarac had

6 surrendered, and the conversation was about whether he really should have

7 surrendered or shouldn't have, and Mico said, "If there was an indictment

8 against me, I would turn myself in too." That's the general drift of that

9 conversation. And then he sort of asked, "Do you think there may be an

10 indictment against me?" And I said, "No, because if there were, they

11 would have arrested you a long time ago," because that was a year after

12 the arrival of the representatives of the international community, and

13 their cooperation was in full swing. They often visited the school and

14 brought presents. They talked to people. They entered the school to meet

15 with the students. When Mico was unable to attend, when he was away, he

16 appointed me his deputy for those purposes, asking me to receive them. At

17 no time did we avoid cooperating with them. This man, Hans Time, came

18 very often and we were almost friends. We were simply socialising.

19 Q. Mr. Vukovic, are you aware that at the time Milorad Krnojelac was

20 arrested and brought to the Tribunal, he carried a false identification

21 document?

22 A. I don't know about that.

23 MS. KUO: No further questions, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination, Mr. Vasic?

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, just a few.

Page 6864













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6865

1 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

2 Q. Mr. Vukovic, in response to a question by my learned friend, you

3 said that Mr. Dakic had been to visit the staff. Which staff did you

4 mean?

5 A. The army staff at Velecevo.

6 Q. Thank you. In your statement, referring to the fact that some

7 teachers wore military shirts and that some children wore parts of

8 uniforms, could you tell me how children of refugees from areas they had

9 to flee due to combat operations were? How were they dressed?

10 A. Those were precisely the children who wore parts of uniforms.

11 They were children of refugees. And some of the teachers were also

12 refugees and wore military shirts under sweaters, and we never asked any

13 questions or objected to that because we knew the shops weren't working,

14 we knew that the Red Cross had no clothing to offer.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. When, with your colleague Mrs. Hamovic you went

16 to the first visit to RJ, to which office did you go?

17 A. I seem to remember that we first peeked into Mico's office and

18 then he told us to go into a different one.

19 Q. On that occasion, did you greet Milorad Krnojelac?

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. Was that before he sent you to a different office?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I have just one more question. You were talking about restarting

24 production, and you mentioned the farm at Velecevo. What did you mean?

25 A. The command, the military command, was in one building, and this

Page 6866

1 farm was in a different building between Velecevo and Brioni. One of

2 Drina's units worked in Velecevo, that is Brioni, and when I mentioned

3 Velecevo, I meant the military command.

4 Q. Did you say one of the tasks of Milorad Krnojelac was to restart

5 production at Velecevo?

6 A. I meant the animal farm at Velecevo.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Your Honours, Defence

8 has no further questions. It's 11.00 anyway.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, sir, for giving evidence before

10 us. You are now free to leave.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE HUNT: We will adjourn and resume at 11.30.

14 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. Could you please give us your name and surname.

22 JUDGE HUNT: We have to get a solemn declaration first.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Would you stand up, please, sir, and would you make

25 the solemn declaration in the document which the usher is handing to you.

Page 6867

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please.

6 Now, Mr. Vasic.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you give us your name and surname,

10 please.

11 A. Has the typing finished by now? I'm not very good at this kind of

12 thing. May I speak?

13 Q. Yes, please go ahead.

14 A. My name is Milan Pavlovic.

15 Q. Sir, before I start the examination-in-chief, I have something to

16 ask you. Since you and I speak the same language and since my questions

17 and your answers have to be interpreted, could you please pause briefly

18 after every one of my questions, and could you answer only then, please.

19 In front of you on the screen you have a text. When this black square

20 stops completely, that means that the typing has finished and then you can

21 start answering the question.

22 Sir, could you please give us your date of birth; day, month,

23 year.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I think he's taking you very literally. It's

25 actually flashing just off the screen. I can see it on my laptop.

Page 6868

1 When you see the typing finish, sir, you can then answer.

2 A. My year of birth is the 10th of February, 1953, and I was born in

3 Zavidovici.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Thank you, sir. Are you married? Have you got any children?

6 A. Yes. I'm married and I have three daughters.

7 Q. Can you tell me what your daughters do.

8 A. All of them are studying. They are studying.

9 Q. Where did you complete elementary and secondary school?

10 A. I completed secondary and elementary school in Foca.

11 Q. What are you by profession?

12 A. I'm an electrician.

13 Q. After completing school, where did you get a job and when?

14 A. I got a job immediately after I finished secondary school, at the

15 KP Dom, sometime in the month of June 1971.

16 Q. What did you do at the KP Dom from June 1971 onwards?

17 A. For a while, I worked at the furniture factory, perhaps three or

18 four years, and then I was transferred to the metalwork shop, to the

19 central heating unit. I was a foreman at the central heating unit.

20 Q. Until when did you work as a foreman at the central heating unit

21 at the KP Dom?

22 A. I worked there until I retired.

23 Q. And when did you retire; which year?

24 A. I retired in 1990.

25 Q. While you worked at the KP Dom, did the economic unit function

Page 6869













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Page 6870

1 attached to the KP Dom?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who did the central heating unit belong to where you were

4 foreman?

5 A. The job that I held until I retired belonged to the metalwork shop

6 attached to the Drina Economic Unit.

7 Q. At the time when you were working there, before you retired, did

8 the Drina Economic Unit have a director?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you remember who the director of the economic unit was before

11 you retired, that is to say in 1990?

12 A. Well, I think Simovic Milenko was before I retired, as far as I

13 can remember.

14 Q. Sir, tell me, please, in 1992, did you live in Foca?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In which part of Foca did you live?

17 A. I got an apartment just before the war, perhaps seven, eight or

18 ten years before, so I lived in my apartment in Aladza.

19 Q. When the war conflict just broke out on the 8th of April, 1992,

20 where were you?

21 A. I was in my apartment.

22 Q. Until when were you at your apartment, do you remember?

23 A. Well, I was at the apartment until the -- well, when the conflict

24 broke out and perhaps two days after the conflict broke out.

25 Q. Where did you go after that?

Page 6871

1 A. After that, I went with my wife -- after that, I went with my wife

2 to Dragocava, and then I took the path all around because there was lots

3 of water between where we were and where my parents lived, so then I

4 crossed the bridge at the Dragocava to Cerezluk where my parents lived.

5 Q. When you sent out from Dragocava to Cerezluk, was the fighting

6 still on in that part of town where you lived?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you mobilised, sir, and when?

9 A. I was mobilised as soon as I arrived in Cerezluk.

10 Q. And until when were you with that unit?

11 A. Well, I was in that unit until sometime around the end of April.

12 Around the 29th of April, as far as I can remember.

13 Q. And after the end of April, where did you go then?

14 A. After April or, rather, the end of April, orders arrived stating

15 that I should report for work duty at the KP Dom.

16 Q. When you were mobilised, were you issued any weapons and a

17 uniform?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When orders arrived for you to report for work duty, what happened

20 to this weapon and uniform?

21 A. Since there were relatively few weapons, the weapon remained

22 exactly in the position where I had left from, and I had to leave and

23 report at the KP Dom while the weapons remained at the position there.

24 Q. Who did you report to when you arrived at the KP Dom for your work

25 duty?

Page 6872

1 A. I reported to engineer Relja Goljanin, who is head of the

2 metalwork shop otherwise.

3 Q. Why did you report to Relja Goljanin precisely?

4 A. Well, Relja Goljanin had been my boss before the war anyway, and

5 the message that I got at the position was that I should report to him.

6 Q. When you reported to Relja Goljanin, did he tell you what your job

7 would be, what you were supposed to do?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did he say to you? Can you remember?

10 A. Well, he said to me -- I mean, after I retired, all the people who

11 remained working at my working place were of Muslim ethnicity, and since

12 there were no Serbs available to do that job, and the job I had was rather

13 specific, he asked me to get the boiler room operational so that it could

14 start working, so that possibly the factory could work, and so that the

15 kitchen could work, and so that convicts and detainees could take baths.

16 Q. When you reported for work duty, what shape was the boiler room

17 in?

18 A. Well, the boiler room was quite damaged - the roof, the pump,

19 certain parts of all of this - so I needed a few days to put all of this

20 in order so that it could function at least to a certain extent, for the

21 time being, at any rate.

22 Q. Did somebody help you in overhauling this boiler room?

23 A. Well, yes. I had two or three convicts of Serb ethnicity who were

24 there before the war, and a colleague of mine also was assigned to work

25 duty, and he had retired a bit after me.

Page 6873

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the name of

2 this person.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Did you get that message, Mr. Vasic? We have lost a

4 name.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 Q. Sir, could you please repeat your colleague's name, clearly, so

7 that the interpreters could understand?

8 A. Miladin Ikonic.

9 Q. Thank you, sir. After the overhaul was completed, did the boiler

10 room start working, at least provisionally, and for how long?

11 A. Well, as soon as these problems that I found there were sorted out

12 - and that took about two days - we, or rather I, lit the furnaces. And

13 the very lighting takes about a day or two. Then the boiler room started

14 working. In this particular case, the first thing it was used for was to

15 provide steam for the kitchen in order to have food cooked, and also to

16 provide hot water for baths to be taken by convicted and detained

17 persons.

18 Q. Can you tell us how long the boiler room worked?

19 A. Well, I can't remember exactly. Before I came here, I was

20 thinking about it. It was a long time ago, but I think it was about seven

21 or ten days. That's the way it seems to me. It worked for as long as

22 there was electricity, actually. And then when there was no more

23 electricity, then we stopped working.

24 Q. After the boiler room could no longer work because of the shortage

25 of electricity, did you remain there at that particular work obligation at

Page 6874













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Page 6875

1 the KP Dom? Did you remain working at the KP Dom?

2 A. Well, I remained perhaps for a day or two or perhaps three days

3 after there was no more electricity.

4 Q. The working place that you worked at, which segment of the KP Dom

5 did it belong to when you reported for work duty, for your work

6 obligation?

7 A. It belonged to the metalwork shop all along, and to the Drina

8 Economic Unit.

9 Q. You said that after the boiler room stopped working, you remained

10 there for another day or two. Where did you go after that?

11 A. After that, after that day or two or three days - I can't remember

12 exactly how long this lasted, I can't remember exactly how long, exactly

13 how many days - a list came from the military command that we should

14 report to the military command -- or, rather, that we should report at

15 Livade and go to the front.

16 Q. Were you issued any weapons again then, and were you mobilised

17 again then?

18 A. Yes. Yes, I was issued weapons and I was mobilised again.

19 Q. How long did you stay in this military unit?

20 A. I stayed in this military unit until the 1st of October, 1993.

21 1993, yes -- or rather -- 1993, yes, 1993.

22 Q. The 1st of October, 1993. What happened then?

23 A. Well, let me tell you. After I left, or rather, even before I

24 left and while I was working during those 15-odd days at the KP Dom, I

25 omitted to mention to you, I forgot to mention a colleague of mine who

Page 6876

1 worked at the metalwork shop who is a disabled person, and he is therefore

2 not a military conscript; that is Dusko Djurovic.

3 I used the time I spent working there to instruct him as to how

4 the boiler room functions, and since I left and his knowledge in this

5 particular line of work was very limited, very small because he could not

6 learn everything in those three or seven days, I heard that they had had

7 various problems, or rather, in wintertime 1992, 1993, because of the very

8 low temperatures, heaters broke down and pipes that were full of water

9 broke because of the frost, and there were major problems.

10 Q. Is this why you received orders to report back to work duty at the

11 KP Dom?

12 A. Yes, precisely, because I'm the best of all of those men. And I

13 was foreman of that plant anyway, and I was quite familiar with the

14 subject matter because I spent quite a bit of time working at that unit.

15 And in a way, perhaps, I must have been the most meritorious person in

16 terms of repairing the damage that had been incurred during the winter

17 period.

18 Q. Did you return your military equipment, then, the one that had

19 been issued to you, before you went to the KP Dom?

20 A. Yes, uniform and equipment.

21 Q. Who did you report to, then, after getting to the KP Dom?

22 A. I reported to Relja Goljanin in that time too, and I remained

23 there for my work obligation.

24 Q. You mentioned that when you first came from your unit, when you

25 were first demobilised, on the 29th of April, 1992, that the place you

Page 6877

1 worked at belonged to the Drina Economic Unit. Do you know who then

2 headed the Drina Economic Unit?

3 A. Could you please tell me -- are you asking me about which period?

4 Q. When you first came to the KP Dom, when you were first

5 demobilised, you said that you reported to Relja Goljanin. Who headed the

6 Drina Economic Unit at that time, do you know?

7 A. At that time, the economic unit, the Drina Economic Unit was

8 headed by Mico Krnojelac.

9 Q. How come you know that the Drina Economic Unit was then headed by

10 Mico Krnojelac?

11 A. Well, Relja, engineer Relja Goljanin, said to me that he agreed

12 with the director of the Drina Economic Unit, Mico Krnojelac, that I

13 should come to work there, or rather, that I should come for work duty.

14 Q. When you came back to the KP Dom the second time, after being

15 demobilised in October 1993, who was director of the Drina Economic Unit

16 then, do you know?

17 A. In October 1993, it was Radojica Tesovic.

18 Q. Did you see Milorad Krnojelac at the KP Dom then?

19 A. No.

20 Q. During your first stay at the KP Dom, your first period, did you

21 ever have any contact with Muslim military detainees?

22 A. No. I didn't.

23 Q. And did you have any contact with them during your second period

24 at the KP Dom, which started in October 1993?

25 A. The second time I came to the KP Dom, I spent all my time with

Page 6878

1 Muslims, with the Muslims who worked in that period in the metalwork

2 shop.

3 Q. How long did it take to remove the damage in the heating system,

4 in the boiler room, when you came to the KP Dom?

5 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I cannot say precisely how long, but

6 it took certainly two months and maybe more.

7 Q. Did anyone help you do that work at that time, restarting the

8 boiler room and the entire heating system?

9 A. Well, yes. For the entire duration of our work on repairing the

10 damage on the boiler room, it was mostly Muslims, certain craftsmen -

11 welders, tinsmiths, locksmiths and others - who did the work. There were

12 some Serbs as well, but it was mostly Muslims.

13 Q. Do you know Mr. Muhamed Lisica?

14 A. Had you asked me this before I came here to the Tribunal, I would

15 have told you, no, I didn't know such a man, and I will later explain why.

16 But yes, I do know Muhamed Lisica.

17 Q. Would you explain, please, what you just started saying.

18 A. Well, about a month ago, or maybe a little more than that, my

19 family and friends from Belgrade started calling me on the phone, and they

20 said that they had watched a report from the Tribunal and that one of

21 those Muslims mentioned me in that context, saying something like -- that

22 Mico Krnojelac carried out orders of the military command at the KP Dom.

23 In the first moments, I just couldn't believe that my name had been

24 mentioned in whatever context linked to the KP Dom, and particularly in

25 relation to Mr. Mico Krnojelac.

Page 6879













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6880

1 I waited to see the report on the work of the Tribunal which is

2 broadcast on Bosnian television on Tuesdays around five, and I watched

3 precisely as Muhamed Lisica was testifying in the part where he mentioned

4 me. The picture was not very good, and I didn't really recognise him.

5 And then ten or so days passed after the broadcast, and when people from

6 Foca started stopping me on the street and asking me about his testimony,

7 referring to him by his nickname Lija, and it was only then that I knew

8 who they were talking about.

9 Q. Have you ever discussed Mr. Milorad Krnojelac's position and

10 function at the KP Dom, while he was at the KP Dom, with Muhamed Lisica?

11 A. As far as Muhamed Lisica, nicknamed Lija, is concerned, I never

12 saw him before the 1st of October, 1993, at the KP Dom.

13 Q. After the 1st of October, 1993, did you discuss Krnojelac's

14 function and position at the KP Dom with Muhamed Lisica?

15 A. Regarding Mico Krnojelac, I couldn't have discussed it with

16 Lisica, or anyone else, because Lisica did not work with me in my unit in

17 that entire period. And I couldn't have discussed it at any time with any

18 of the detainees, and I couldn't have discussed anyone else at the KP Dom

19 with the detainees or express my opinions.

20 Q. Did you tell Mr. Muhamed Lisica that Mico Krnojelac was receiving

21 and carrying out orders from the military command?

22 A. No. I didn't tell him that, and the only reason is that, after

23 his testimony, I thought it was my duty as a human being and a citizen to

24 deny what he said. And at my own initiative, I later found Mico

25 Krnojelac's son and explained to him the problem with this statement of

Page 6881

1 Lisica's, and I asked him to put me into contact with the lawyers so that

2 I -- so as to enable me to deny this statement.

3 Q. Did you talk to Muhamed Lisica about why Mr. Sevko Kubat was not

4 released from the KP Dom?

5 A. Sir, I was a worker at the KP Dom. I had a particular job to do,

6 and that did not include asking questions about any of the Muslim

7 detainees, and I never did that. I never asked about Sevko Kubat, nor did

8 I express any views on Milorad Krnojelac.

9 Q. Thank you, sir. Could you please tell me, this boiler room, after

10 it was repaired, did it operate continuously after your arrival there in

11 1993?

12 A. After it was repaired, it did not work continuously. We

13 encountered various problems, starting with purchases of coal, which was

14 very expensive. We only operated in those periods when the Drina Economic

15 Unit was able to provide the raw materials and to ensure production. And

16 when they wanted the press to work, we would light up the boilers, work

17 for about a week, and after the press, which served to glue something at

18 the furniture factory, we would stop the operation of the boiler room and

19 start preparing for the next stage. We would in fact wait for the next

20 stage. And that was the varnishing of the materials that had been

21 pressed.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell me, how long did you stay on this

23 job at the KP Dom?

24 A. I stayed there until the signing of the Dayton Accords, but a

25 couple of months, maybe three or four months, before the signing of the

Page 6882

1 Dayton Accords, four new men were employed who had passed the examination

2 required to work with vessels under high pressure, and my job was to train

3 them on the job, to give them some skills to operate this plant so that

4 they would be able to continue working there.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

6 Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions of this

7 witness, thank you.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Ms. Kuo?

9 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

10 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Pavlovic.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. You've testified that you -- at the beginning of the war, or

14 during April, you were mobilised and issued weapons and a military

15 uniform, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And shortly after that, you were given your work obligation to go

18 to the KP Dom instead, right?

19 A. What did you mean; instead of what? I didn't hear the end of the

20 question.

21 Q. Let me ask it to you this way: When you were mobilised, what date

22 was that?

23 A. I don't really remember the date. That was before -- if I was

24 mobilised on the 9th of April, and the war broke out on the 7th, that

25 means that I was mobilised when I came home.

Page 6883

1 Q. When you were issued the weapon and the military uniform, you did

2 not go immediately to the KP Dom. You were not told to go immediately to

3 the KP Dom, right?

4 A. No. When I got the uniform and the weapon, I went to the mountain

5 lodge above my house. At that time, that was where the front line was.

6 And I spent there the days before going to the KP Dom. As the front line

7 spread, we moved -- we shifted position.

8 Q. So you were actually at the front line for a number of days, and

9 even weeks, before you were sent to the KP Dom, right?

10 A. I was there until the 29th of April.

11 Q. Just to clarify, you mean you were at the front line until the

12 29th of April?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You went to the KP Dom specifically to fix the boiler, is that

15 right, because of your skills?

16 A. Yes. Not that's the boiler. In fact, that's a vessel under very

17 high pressure.

18 Q. But in layman's terms, it's the boiler?

19 A. If you think that a huge vessel under ten atmospheres pressure is

20 a boiler, then let it be a boiler.

21 Q. You were authorised -- in fact, you were sent to the KP Dom to

22 work on this by the military, right?

23 A. No. It was upon the summons of my former boss, that is the

24 manager of the Drina Economic Unit.

25 Q. Who was that?

Page 6884













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6885

1 A. Could you repeat what you said?

2 Q. What was the name of the person who summonsed you?

3 A. Relja Goljanin.

4 Q. During the two weeks that you were at the KP Dom, obviously you

5 were not at the front line.

6 A. No, I wasn't on the front line.

7 Q. So somebody needed to get permission from the military unit that

8 you belonged to, to let you be at the KP Dom for two weeks to fix this

9 boiler, right?

10 A. There was probably some kind of request regarding me. I was

11 simply asked when I was in my unit and told that I had to go and report to

12 that man, Relja Goljanin.

13 Q. When you reported to the KP Dom and during those two weeks when

14 you were there, did you have any dealings at all with Mr. Krnojelac?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And you told us that you worked with a colleague, Mr. Ikonic, and

17 also two or three Serb convicts. Who supervised those convicts?

18 A. Even before the war, the people who worked in my unit were the

19 people who were allowed to go outside the perimeter, because the boiler

20 room is outside the walls of the KP Dom, and we supervised -- in fact, we

21 selected the people who were allowed to go outside the KP Dom.

22 Q. And during the two weeks when you were there during wartime, were

23 you able to select those people who worked with you, the convicts?

24 A. No. As far as selection is concerned, it was quite clear what my

25 job was, and it was quite clear whose job it was to select people. It was

Page 6886

1 not mine.

2 Q. Whose job was it to select those convicts to work with you?

3 A. In this case, Relja Goljanin would bring me a list of people who

4 were at my disposal to do the work.

5 Q. So in other words, during the whole time that you were working on

6 fixing the boiler, you never had to go through Mr. Krnojelac to have

7 anything done, right? Everything went through Mr. Goljanin.

8 A. Yes. All this went through Relja Goljanin and the guard who

9 worked at the gate of the metalwork shop. In that part of the metalwork

10 shop, before the war and during the war, we always had a guard.

11 Q. You stayed at the KP Dom, fixing the boiler, for two weeks, which

12 means until the middle of May, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. During that time, you never noticed any increased military

15 presence, did you, or the sudden appearance of the military?

16 A. In the period when I worked there -- and I have to say that the

17 boiler room was removed from the metalwork shop about 50 metres or more,

18 and one of the particular features of my work was that I spent my time

19 there working with vessels under high pressure which need constant

20 supervising because it's very dangerous. And I see from what you're

21 saying that you don't quite understand this sort of work. It's very

22 dangerous to handle vessels under high pressure because there is a danger

23 of explosion with terrifying consequences. And I never left my workplace,

24 and I didn't see anyone except when I went for breakfast. That was the

25 only time I left my workplace.

Page 6887

1 Q. Your workplace is actually part of the KP Dom, right?

2 A. Well, if you look at the KP Dom and the Drina Economic Unit as a

3 whole, then, yes.

4 Q. And during those two weeks, you went to the KP Dom every day,

5 right?

6 A. Yes. Those two weeks I was present all the time. I didn't go

7 home at all. I had to be there day and night while those high-pressure

8 vessels were in operation.

9 Q. You said day and night. Did you actually sleep at the KP Dom?

10 A. For a while, precisely in the period you are referring to, I spent

11 the nights at the metalwork shop. There were two or three beds there. If

12 you could say I slept at all.

13 Q. I would like to have you shown Exhibit P6, and you can indicate to

14 us where the boiler room is on this diagram.

15 A. Like this?

16 Q. Sir, you'll need to point to the ELMO, the piece of paper, rather

17 than the computer screen. If it would help you to have the diagram placed

18 directly in front of yourself first, you can orient yourself and then

19 indicate it to us.

20 A. Well, as far as I can tell -- well, this is it. This would be the

21 boiler room.

22 Q. Let's have that placed on the ELMO and you can show it to us.

23 A. [Indicates].

24 MS. KUO: The witness has indicated a separate building, that is

25 to -- directly above the metal shop on the diagram. In Exhibit P6A, which

Page 6888

1 has English translations, it indicates that as the boiler room facility.

2 Q. Thank you. Could you show us where you were spending the nights?

3 You said that there were two or three beds.

4 A. I don't know where. Well, I mean, I can't see there on that

5 sketch where the office of the metalwork shop is. It's probably here in

6 this long thing, in part of this long thing, this long room -- or rather,

7 in the left corner after the entrance.

8 MS. KUO: The witness pointed to the metalwork shop building,

9 which is directly below the boiler room facility, and it's the upper

10 building rather than the lower building on the diagram.

11 Q. And sir, you said you stayed there day and night, so certainly you

12 ate your meals in the canteen with the rest of the staff?

13 A. Well, in the period when the boilers were operating, I slept

14 there, and I also took my meals at the KP Dom throughout that period.

15 MS. KUO: Thank you. We don't need the diagram any more.

16 Q. Sir, when you arrived at the KP Dom, did you notice a military

17 presence; soldiers, people in uniform?

18 A. Well, I didn't notice. The facility that I work in doesn't have

19 any windows. These are concrete walls. It's simply a closed facility.

20 And it is apart from the KP Dom itself. I didn't notice.

21 Q. When you went to the canteen to eat, did you notice military

22 personnel present?

23 A. Well, in that period, when I went to have breakfast, I didn't see

24 -- the usual guards were there and I really didn't see anyone else.

25 Q. And when you were in the metal shop area, the place where you

Page 6889













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Page 6890

1 indicated you slept, you didn't notice any soldiers there either, in early

2 May?

3 A. No, never.

4 Q. Sir, you never heard the name Savo Todovic mentioned in connection

5 with being part of the military command at the KP Dom, right?

6 A. Well, let me tell you -- well, I can't say to you -- I don't know

7 whether Savo Todovic was within the military command. I just know -- I

8 mean, now I'm talking about the period when I came there the second time

9 for my work obligation. Some of these papers that had to do with the

10 detainees, or rather, people who worked with me, had the signature of Savo

11 Todovic on these papers. What he did, that was not my job. I was not

12 interested in that.

13 Q. During the first period when you worked at the metalwork shop, you

14 never heard Savo Todovic's name mentioned, right?

15 A. I didn't. Later, I heard more from the Muslims themselves. To

16 tell you the truth, as for the working practice in the KP Dom, it meant

17 that we should talk as little as possible and that everyone should do his

18 own job, and we all know what our jobs were.

19 Q. When you worked with the Serb convicts during those two weeks at

20 the beginning, did they have papers authorising them to work with you?

21 A. Every convict, or rather, every person who went out through the

22 gate of the KP Dom, had to have a pass in order to pass through the gate,

23 and then that pass would remain at the gate with the person who had that

24 job.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could Ms. Kuo please speak

Page 6891

1 into the microphone.

2 MS. KUO: I apologise for not speaking into the microphone.

3 Q. You never saw whose name was on the pass, these passes, as

4 authorising those Serb convicts to work with you, right?

5 A. Whose name are you actually referring to? I didn't quite

6 understand what you were saying.

7 Q. You told us that during the second time you were at the KP Dom,

8 that the people who worked with you had papers, and some of the papers had

9 to do -- I'll just read back to you: Some of these papers that had to do

10 with the detainees or the people who worked with you had the signature of

11 Savo Todovic. So I'm asking you whether the Serb convicts during the

12 first time you were there had similar papers, and if so, whose name was on

13 that?

14 A. Well, the first time I worked, Savo Todovic did not do that job --

15 or rather, his name appeared only when Muslims were concerned. As for

16 signatures for Serb convicts before the war, I know that there was always

17 a man who would appoint them for work. I can't remember exactly now. I

18 think it was Dragisa Milic, but please take that with a grain of salt

19 because I'm not sure.

20 Q. You've told us that -- at the KP Dom, you were not supposed to

21 talk very much, and you were supposed to just do your job; is that right?

22 A. Exactly. Regardless of whether it was convicts before the war or

23 whether it was detainees, it was one of the rules of our code of conduct

24 not to talk to these persons, especially not to have any kind of very

25 private conversation.

Page 6892

1 Q. You worked with both Serb convicts and Muslim detainees, right?

2 A. In 1993, I worked with both.

3 Q. You didn't make any distinctions between them based on their

4 ethnicity, did you? You treated them the same.

5 A. Well, I think that the very fact that I worked there for a year --

6 I didn't really calculate this period very precisely - that is to say, all

7 the way up to Dayton. I worked with quite a few of these Muslims, and my

8 name is not mentioned in any context except in the statement of the

9 above-mentioned gentleman. I think that that shows that I did my job

10 honestly and properly.

11 Q. I don't think you really answered my question, sir. You treated

12 both Muslims and Serbs correctly; isn't that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When the convicts or the detainees were working with you in the

15 boiler room or in the metalwork shop, they weren't actually guarded.

16 There wasn't really a guard standing with them the whole time when you

17 were interacting with them, right?

18 A. Well, Serb convicts always worked with me, as far as work in the

19 boiler room is concerned. As for the work carried out by Muslim

20 detainees, they worked only in that period when the boiler room was not

21 operating, that is to say, when we were carrying out repairs in this

22 respect, and then there was always one of the guards there. When they

23 would get a list as to who would be working with me, then there would

24 always be a guard there.

25 Q. Muhamed Lisica was one of the Muslim detainees who helped fixed

Page 6893

1 the boiler room, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You worked with him quite often?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And certainly during those -- the times that you were working, you

6 didn't -- you had to talk to each other, you had to communicate in order

7 to work together, right?

8 A. Well, I didn't have to communicate. It was my job to give orders

9 and to supervise what he did and to show him how he should do it. And it

10 was his job to do the actual work. It wasn't that there was some

11 discipline involved or this rigid kind of relationship, but even if there

12 was any conversation, we would always let the other side, regardless of

13 whether it was this convict or that convict, to do the talking, or

14 detainee or whatever.

15 Q. You never had any problems with Mr. Lisica, did you?

16 A. No, no. Lisica was a very good worker. I can only say the very

17 best about him as a worker. And that is why I was really surprised by

18 this statement of his. I had to come here to refute it.

19 Q. You understood that the statement that was attributed to you was

20 something that was harmful to Milorad Krnojelac, right? If it were true,

21 what Muhamed Lisica said you said, that would have hurt Milorad

22 Krnojelac's Defence, right?

23 A. I'm not interested in whether it would hurt Milorad or not. I'm

24 only interested in whether I said this or not. Since I did not say

25 this -- my purpose is not to help Milorad Krnojelac, nor can I help him,

Page 6894













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6895

1 but I can refute that which is not true, and I stand by that.

2 Q. When people approached you about the statement, it was not -- it

3 was in a context where you felt like you were put in a bad situation for

4 having said something against a fellow Serb in Foca, right?

5 A. Well, let me tell you. My name being mentioned in the context of

6 something that I did not say -- I was not interested at all in whether

7 this was Milorad or any other person. Had I said this, I would not have

8 appeared here at all.

9 Q. Mr. Pavlovic, you mentioned earlier a Dragisa Milic as being the

10 person who might have authorised the Serb convicts to work with you. This

11 is somebody who worked at the farm, and he was a psychologist, right?

12 A. Dragisa Milic was a psychologist, but really, although I really

13 want to, I cannot remember who did this work. Maybe Savo did it, too, but

14 I really don't know.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, while there is a pause

16 between the questions, about the interpretation, it is row, line -- page

17 59, line 6. The witness said, "Maybe Savo did this, but I doubt it," and

18 that's not what the transcript says.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I think, Ms. Kuo, the easiest thing to ask him is to

20 give the answer again.

21 MS. KUO: Yes, I need to get this clarified, in any event.

22 Q. Sir, you told us that Mr. Milic was possibly the person who signed

23 the papers on behalf of the Serb convicts. Was that before the war or

24 during the war, in the two weeks that you yourself worked with the Serb

25 convicts?

Page 6896

1 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I did not think about these things

2 before. Now, why did I relate Dragisa Milic to this list? Because

3 Dragisa Milic, before the war, while I had the job I had before I retired,

4 I would always go to Dragisa Milic to get certain convicts, or rather a

5 list of convicts who would be working with me. Now, at the outset, when I

6 mentioned Dragisa, I said that I was not sure. If this has to be

7 clarified, I would rather say that I do not know who did this job, not to

8 engage in guess work now, to mention one or the other. I think it would

9 be fairer to put it this way because I really don't know.

10 Q. So you don't know what role Savo Todovic was playing during this

11 time either, right, whether he signed papers for certain people or not?

12 I'm just talking about the two weeks.

13 A. These two weeks that you're talking about, at that time, Muslims,

14 detainees, did not work at all, either at the metalwork shop or anywhere

15 else, as far as I know.

16 Q. Sir, I'm asking you about Savo Todovic and what role he played

17 during those two weeks. You don't know what role he was playing at that

18 time, right?

19 A. I don't know. I don't know.

20 Q. You told us that you were at the KP Dom the second time until

21 shortly before the Dayton Accords. Isn't it true that you had already

22 left the KP Dom by the 31st of October 1994? That was the last day you

23 were there.

24 A. 1994? Dayton? No. From the end of 1993 until the signing of

25 Dayton, it seems to me that it was the spring, May or June, 1995.

Page 6897

1 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have this

2 witness shown Exhibit P3.

3 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to item number 62. At 62, that

4 is your name, right, and your birth date?

5 A. No. My date is the 10th of February 1953, and that is my name and

6 surname.

7 Q. The 29th of April 1992 as the beginning of your work obligation is

8 the correct date, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And it says here also that the 31st of October 1994 is when your

11 work obligation ended. Is that accurate?

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic?

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The witness already answered this

15 question earlier. However, I think it would be fair if --

16 JUDGE HUNT: Wait a minute, please. You're not here to help the

17 witness at this stage. You have the right to re-examine later. The

18 cross-examiner is not bound by any answer he gave earlier, and is entitled

19 to ask the same question again. If you want to clear something up about

20 that, you may do so in re-examination. Just let the cross-examination

21 have -- cross-examiner have her head.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. I agree

23 with you. However, I wanted to say that this exhibit has a time limit,

24 and that was not stated to the witness, and I don't think it is fair to

25 speak to him about the date when he was in the KP Dom, and this exhibit,

Page 6898

1 as it says in the very heading, refers to a limited period of time. It

2 says here that this is a list of personnel in the period from April 1992

3 until October 1994, not after October 1994, so that we could ascertain

4 whether somebody was there after this date or not.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if that is so, Ms. Kuo, it doesn't take us very

6 far.

7 MS. KUO: That's fine, Your Honour. I was confused about the

8 dates and so I wanted him to clarify it. If in fact it is 1995 and this

9 document ends in 1994, then, of course, the 1995 date stands.

10 JUDGE HUNT: I am not quite sure where we are headed with all of

11 this cross-examination.

12 MS. KUO: I wanted to establish when exactly he was present at the

13 KP Dom, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I know, but we have got a certain cut-off date as to

15 relevance in this case. That's when Mr. Krnojelac finished in his

16 position of warden, whatever that position meant.

17 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. I'll continue, then.

18 Q. Mr. Pavlovic, you were present at the KP Dom -- were you present

19 in KP Dom in July of 1993? We are done with this exhibit. Thank you.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you later learn that Ekrem Zekovic had escaped from the

22 metalwork shop in July of 1993?

23 A. When I came -- I told you about this. As I worked with Muslims,

24 detainees, they talked to me themselves, Lisica and other men, and they

25 said that Zekovic had escaped. He had escaped a few months before that.

Page 6899













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6900

1 Later on, as I worked there, I never saw Zekovic, and I don't know

2 anything about this.

3 Q. Did you also learn from the Muslim detainees that the Muslim

4 detainees who worked at the metalwork shop were also punished as a result

5 of Ekrem Zekovic's escape? Did they tell you that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Mr. Pavlovic, during the time, both the first time and the second

8 time you worked at the KP Dom, were you ever aware that a military command

9 was in charge of any part of the KP Dom?

10 A. To tell you the truth - I repeat it once again - I was not

11 interested at all in what the military was doing, what certain people were

12 doing. I came there to do my part of the job. I stuck to that. I had

13 already got to a certain age. I was simply doing my own job, I wasn't

14 interested in anything else.

15 Q. Sir, when you told us that you were sent to the front line at the

16 very beginning of the war, that was the mountain lodge Dub, right near

17 Foca, right?

18 A. I spent quite some time, practically all my life, underneath that

19 mountain lodge. We, the citizens, know that it's the mountain lodge. I

20 don't know whether Dub is the name. And I was then at that position where

21 the mountain lodge is, but whether it's actually called Dub, that I really

22 don't know.

23 Q. But it's right near Foca or right in Foca itself, right?

24 A. No. That's above Cerezluk, above my house, above my parents'

25 house where my parents lived. Perhaps about two kilometres above it, a

Page 6901

1 kilometre and a half, that is to say, on the other side of the hill -- or

2 rather, Foca is in a valley, so this is right above my house.

3 Q. You talked about your parents being in Cerezluk. That was still

4 in Foca. That's just a neighbourhood, right?

5 A. I said that I came to my parents' house, and my parents and

6 children -- or rather, my sister's children were not at that house. They

7 were in the country, in a village called Mazoce, 16 kilometres away from

8 Foca. I was in this house, my wife, and my brother-in-law. In the house

9 of my parents, that is.

10 MS. KUO: Your Honours, it's 1.00.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We'll adjourn until 2.30.

12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.














Page 6902

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Kuo?

3 MS. KUO: Your Honour the Prosecution has no further questions for

4 this witness.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination?

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

8 Q. Mr. Pavlovic, my learned friend asked you about contacts between

9 you, the employees, with persons who were detained in the KP Dom. Could

10 you tell me, please, before the war, what were the rules regarding

11 contacts with persons who were serving their sentences there?

12 A. Well, before the war, the rule was - and after the war, too - that

13 persons employed at the KP Dom, or rather, in the Drina Economic Unit,

14 were supposed to avoid any conversation that had to do with personal life;

15 that only work could be discussed, that is.

16 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that you left when there was no more

17 electricity. Can you tell me how much time is needed in order to start up

18 the boiler room if there is no electricity?

19 A. Two days are required to start up the boiler room, in order to

20 light the boilers, in order to -- in order to get the right heat, and in

21 order to get steam.

22 Q. Just one more question: My learned friend asked you whether,

23 within the KP Dom, when you were there for the first time, you saw any

24 soldiers there. I want to ask you whether you noticed any persons there

25 who were not originally from that area, that is to say, Foca and its

Page 6903

1 surroundings.

2 A. I did see these people during the first days, or rather, before I

3 came, there were some people who were not from our town. While I worked,

4 as I said, I hardly left my working place. I practically didn't go out at

5 all. I did not see them. However, I heard later from other people there

6 were some people like that too. But I don't know which period. I was at

7 the front line. So when this later period was, I really can't tell you.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Pavlovic.

9 Your Honours, the Defence has no further redirect.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for coming here to give evidence and

11 for the evidence you've given. You are now free to leave.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.


16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If I may, with your leave, I would

17 like to address you to save time. I don't know whether this is a good

18 moment, but I would like to ask the witness about a name. We have already

19 prepared a piece of paper with that name on it. The usher is not here,

20 but I should like to ask him to put this piece of paper in front of the

21 witness on the witness stand, so I'll bring the paper to the

22 representative of the registry.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bakrac. Well, that

24 pseudonym sheet which relates to Mr. Arso Krnojelac will be Exhibit D154,

25 and it will be under seal.

Page 6904













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6905

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you please make the solemn declaration in

3 the document that the usher is showing you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

9 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Examined by Mr. Bakrac:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Now I have to say something that we say to every

13 witness. Sir, can you hear me?

14 A. I hear you.

15 Q. Sir, I would like to ask you, since we speak the same language and

16 it all needs to be interpreted so that the other participants in the

17 proceedings can understand us, I would like to ask you to make a brief

18 pause before answering. If it's easier for you, please watch the screen

19 in front of you. You will notice that a transcript is being typed out,

20 and when you see the typing has finished, you can start answering. In

21 other words, don't answer immediately after I ask my question; make a

22 brief pause.

23 Can we start? Have you understood me?

24 A. Yes, we can.

25 Q. Sir, will you please tell me your name and surname.

Page 6906

1 A. Arsenije Krnojelac.

2 Q. When and where were you born?

3 A. On the 11th of August, 1935, in the village of Birotici.

4 Q. You say in the village of Birotici. Is it a village or a hamlet?

5 A. It's a hamlet near Bunovi.

6 Q. Please wait after I ask my question. Tell me, did you do your

7 military service; where?

8 A. Yes, I did in 1957, 1958, in Skopje.

9 Q. While you served in the army, did you acquire any skill?

10 A. I was recruited...

11 Q. Yes, please go on.

12 A. ... into the auto mechanic unit.

13 Q. Did you undergo any training to become a driver, and what kind of

14 training, what category?

15 A. I got categories A and C in the military class.

16 Q. Do these categories allow you to drive sedan cars and freight

17 vehicles?

18 A. These categories, when written into a driver's licence, comprised

19 permission to drive luxury sedans and freight vehicles.

20 Q. What other schooling do you have?

21 A. At that time, I had completed four years of elementary schooling.

22 Q. After having done your military service, did you go back to school

23 and did you pass any other examinations?

24 A. When I came back from school, I took the civilian's test, the

25 civilian's driving test, in order to be able to work as a driver, a

Page 6907

1 professional driver, and first I took the test for the C category and

2 professional examination for a skilled driver.

3 Q. You said, "When I came back from school." Did you mean the army?

4 A. Will you please repeat that question? I didn't understand you.

5 Q. "When I came back from school, when I got out of school," did you

6 mean to say the army or did you really mean school? You said that about

7 taking this state examination.

8 A. No. I had to take this state examination in order to become a

9 professional, skilled driver in the civilian class.

10 Q. In which year did you take this exam to become a civilian driver?

11 A. As far as I recall, it was 1963.

12 Q. When and where did you get your first job?

13 A. I got employed for the first time in May 1955, with the timber

14 processing company called Maglic. The full name is Forestry and

15 Industrial Enterprise of Maglic. And there I found a job as a skilled

16 worker.

17 Q. Until when did you work at Maglic?

18 A. I worked in Maglic until 1957 or 1958, when I went to the army to

19 do my military service.

20 Q. Having done your military service, did you go back to continue

21 working at Maglic or did you find another job?

22 A. I came back to the farm where I worked with my parents, because we

23 lived in poverty. It was a mountainous, rural area where we lived, and I

24 had no choice but to look for a job. And I went looking for a job in that

25 same company, the Forestry and Industrial Enterprise of Maglic. In that

Page 6908

1 company, if my memory serves me well, I spent some time. There was a

2 military post box -- post office box enterprise in Foca, which employed

3 people, and was looking for manpower to pave roads.

4 Q. Just a moment, sir. We don't need all the details about the line

5 of work of that company. Just tell me where you found your next job.

6 A. In the military post box as a driver. That was after I passed the

7 civilian's driver's test for the C category, that is for freight

8 vehicles.

9 Q. Can you tell me where did you work next?

10 A. After that, I started building a house in Foca. After I spent a

11 year working for that military post box, I was forced, since we spent a

12 lot of time on the road, to transfer to the fire brigade company as a

13 driver again in Foca, based in Foca.

14 Q. Tell me, sir, did you work as a driver at the KP Dom, and if so,

15 when did you start?

16 A. I worked at the KP Dom from 1977, I cannot remember the date, but

17 it was late April, early May. Again, I worked as the driver of a freight

18 vehicle called Furgon, that is, a delivery truck for furniture, for

19 transporting furniture.

20 Q. And tell me, until what year did you work at the KP Dom in Foca as

21 a driver?

22 A. I can't remember the date, but that's the position from which I

23 retired. It should be 1964 -- I'm sorry, 1994.

24 Q. If I understood you correctly, you worked continuously at the KP

25 Dom in Foca from 1977 to 1994?

Page 6909













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6910

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And all this time you worked as a driver of that Furgon?

3 A. Yes, that's true. All that time I worked as a driver,

4 transporting furniture.

5 Q. When the war in Foca began, where were you on that 8th of April,

6 1992?

7 A. You want me to be precise? I was about to retire, and there was

8 even a decision approving my retirement, but it wasn't signed yet. I

9 thought it would be signed in time. And I had about ten days of vacation

10 left over from the previous year and some days of vacation due to me for

11 the current year, so I took that vacation and spent it in the village

12 where I was born.

13 If you want to know why, it's because I was always more interested

14 and keener on farming, and I had inherited a small house from my father,

15 and I was preparing for the sowing season, the usual crops, potatoes and

16 so on and so forth, and that's where I was in those first days of war.

17 Q. You say in the village where you were born where you renovated

18 your old father's house. Is that the hamlet of Birotici?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Did you come back from that village to Foca, and if so, when?

21 A. I must say that I wasn't counting days or looking at the calendar.

22 I found out the next day that it was the 8th of April. One of my

23 neighbours and relatives who came out of Foca -- who got out of Foca told

24 me that war had broken out in town. I was pretty much taken aback by

25 that. I hadn't thought it would come to that. He said there was a lot of

Page 6911

1 shooting. When this man got out of town, it was already the 9th.

2 We were talking about all of that - I won't go into detail - and

3 the next morning I set out in the company of my neighbour. We did not

4 take the real road, the usual road which our parents used. At that time,

5 it was a little better, but we took the forest paths, rather, because

6 people had told us on the way - Serbs did - that the Muslims were

7 controlling one of the villages on the way, that is, Zubovici.

8 Q. We don't really have to go into all this detail. I don't want to

9 interrupt you, but we don't need to know all the details of your travel

10 from your hamlet to Foca. Just be so kind as to tell me, did you have a

11 house or an apartment in Foca?

12 A. In Foca? I had a house in Foca.

13 Q. Did you have a house on your own or did you share it with

14 someone?

15 Please just wait for the interpretation to finish. I do apologise

16 for interrupting you once again but you started answering the question

17 before I even put it. Go ahead now.

18 A. I had a house in a neighbourhood called Cerezluk. I shared it

19 with my older brother. We shared it. It was partitioned vertically. It

20 was built in the 1960s.

21 Q. You mentioned Cerezluk. Is that a part of Foca? Where is it?

22 Can you tell us?

23 A. That's a part of Foca. It's newly-built. It is on a little hill,

24 and from it you can see practically all of Foca, facing the church that

25 existed there.

Page 6912

1 Q. When you arrived home, who did you find there?

2 A. In the house, inside, I did not find anyone, neither in my

3 neighbour's house or in my house. In the basement, I found my brother, my

4 sister-in-law, the children, a baby that was only two or three days old.

5 The baby was my older brother's.

6 Q. How long did you stay at your house in Foca, or rather, at

7 Cerezluk?

8 A. I stayed three to four days. I was there with my other

9 relatives.

10 Q. From the moment when you returned from the countryside, did

11 Milorad Krnojelac come to your house? Did he come to that same house?

12 A. Milorad? I rushed again. Milorad Krnojelac, as far as I can

13 remember, on the next day, in the evening, it was around dusk. I don't

14 have to say exactly whether it was the same day or the next day, for

15 several reasons. At dusk, he came to Cerezluk with his family so that we

16 could all stay alive. That's what we believed.

17 Q. When Milorad came with his family, did he take something from his

18 house?

19 A. No. Most probably, in view of the fact that Milorad Krnojelac was

20 not an extremist of any kind, he was not in the party that was in the

21 making. He waited for the last moments. When gunfire started from who

22 knows where, he tried to get out and to reach us at Cerezluk.

23 Q. From the window or from the terrace of your house, can you see

24 Donje Polje and can you see the house of Milorad Krnojelac?

25 A. From my house, there are few places in Foca that cannot be seen.

Page 6913

1 All of Donje Polje, as it's known, and the centre of town, even a bit of

2 the hospital, too.

3 Q. Were you watching to see what was going on with that area, Donje

4 Polje, and what was going on with Milorad Krnojelac's house?

5 A. It didn't even cross my mind to watch only the house of Milorad

6 Krnojelac. I went out to the terrace to watch in order to see what was

7 going on. It was dusk, but I wanted to see what was going on in Donje

8 Polje. I saw that part of Serb houses on fire. I did not notice

9 immediately that there was a big fire at Milorad Krnojelac's and Ilija

10 Radovic's. As far as I can remember, Grujicic Velisa too. That was one

11 place. I returned. Since I'm a huntsman, I had binoculars. I took the

12 binoculars and I saw that Milorad Krnojelac's house was burning.

13 Q. May I interrupt you, please? Just tell me -- you mentioned that

14 it was dusk. Was it the same day, the same evening, when Milorad

15 Krnojelac came to your house or was it some other evening?

16 A. As far as I can remember, it was the evening of the next day, as

17 far as I can remember.

18 Q. I do apologise, but you said you're a huntsman, that you took your

19 binoculars. What happened then?

20 A. I looked. I could not tell from which side the fire was coming.

21 It was very hard. I could not even tell him directly that the house was

22 on fire. His wife was downstairs and so was he, on the ground floor. I

23 went downstairs and I said, "It seems to me that the house is on fire.

24 Why don't you go to the terrace to take a look."

25 He rushed out and also my brother-in-law Ilija did too. They took

Page 6914













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Page 6915

1 the binoculars, and they realised that their houses were already well on

2 fire. There was quite a bit of panic then, and there were tears. Had

3 they known, they probably would have taken some clothes along, at least,

4 but they were there without a thing.

5 Q. Did your brother Milorad say something then? Did he make any


7 A. It's hard for me to say this. I cried. He was strong. I

8 remember that well. When he said, "May this be the last fire, the one on

9 my house. May no one's house in Foca be on fire after this," I looked at

10 him. He probably thought that he would build another one.

11 Q. Did you see any other Serb houses on fire?

12 A. Yes, I did. I can't remember, five or six of them above. I know

13 the names of two of these men: Milisav, the dentist; Momir, the

14 blacksmith; Bozo Drakul. Another mailman, I don't remember his name, was

15 it Vaso or something. I can't remember his last name now.

16 Q. If you can't remember, it doesn't matter.

17 A. I can't remember.

18 Q. I'd just like to clarify something, because in the transcript it

19 says Momir, and then it says the blacksmith in the sense of that being his

20 profession. But did he actually have that last name?

21 A. Kovac, which also means blacksmith. Kovac was his last name, and

22 his real name, his first name, was Momcilo. Momcilo Kovac is his name.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that you stayed there for a few days.

24 Where did you go after that?

25 A. After a day or two after that, I went to where I had come from,

Page 6916

1 went to the village. My wife was over there, my grandchildren. I wanted

2 to inform them about all these misfortunes. Since they were wearing what

3 they had worn when they got out, Milorad took some clothes that belonged

4 to my sons, some that belonged to his sons, and some that belonged to my

5 brother, the brother with whom I had built the house together. At that

6 moment, his wife didn't have anybody to turn to for clothes. I sent my

7 own wife to find some clothing for Milorad Krnojelac's wife.

8 Q. So how long did you stay in the village?

9 A. I had already arrived in time for the sowing. Since I saw that we

10 wouldn't even have any potatoes to eat, and I was very good at this, both

11 my wife and I, since we were -- actually, she came from an even longer

12 line of farmers. She was very good at this. So I stayed there, and I was

13 engaged for village guard duty. There were few of us. I had to do that

14 too. Women were quite panic-stricken, but I had enough time to till the

15 land in addition to doing that.

16 Q. Did you take food to your family that had stayed behind in the

17 house at Cerezluk?

18 A. Yes, I did. May I say another thing? I had two cows. I had two

19 swines. From the previous year, I had had some kidney beans, potatoes,

20 and also some pickled vegetables, salads from the previous winter, so my

21 wife was very good at preparing this. And to tell you the truth, it would

22 weigh from ten to 15 kilos, and I had to carry that as I walked for about

23 two hours. And I shared that with my brothers, and it was welcome,

24 indeed.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, is there really any need for all of this

Page 6917

1 detail? What are we leading to? Is it relating to the fire still? Or to

2 the clothing that they were wearing? I'm scratching around, looking for

3 some point of relevance here.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that one of the

5 questions put by the Prosecutors to the witnesses is about food, that is

6 to say, food that was brought to people from their homes. And also in

7 view of what this witness will have to say later, I thought that by way of

8 an introduction, I thought this would be relevant. Of course, not in such

9 detail. I am indeed trying to shorten things, and I don't want the

10 testimony to be so detailed, but I'm trying not to interrupt the witness.

11 But I'll try to do my best when I see that we are getting a great many

12 details that we don't really need.

13 JUDGE HUNT: I appreciate your efforts in attempting to curtail

14 the amount of detail, but we are not really worried about people bringing

15 food from their own holdings to members of their family. The issue of

16 food here is whether the prisoners or the detainees in the KP Dom were

17 given less food than was available to everybody else in the KP Dom. There

18 has been no dispute, as I understand it from the Prosecution or from

19 anybody's evidence, that there was a shortage of food in Foca generally.

20 The issue was whether the Muslim detainees got less than the fair share to

21 which they were entitled within the KP Dom. Now, this evidence doesn't

22 even touch that. And if the Prosecution have been asking questions

23 directed to this, they must have asked them very briefly because they

24 passed through my attention to the matter. So let's try and keep, if we

25 have to deal with food, to what the real issue is here.

Page 6918

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I

2 didn't want to deal with the question any more, anyway, and I wanted to

3 put my next question to the witness. I wanted to ask him whether he

4 reported to the KP Dom at all, since he had worked in the KP Dom before

5 the war. So if so, when did he report?

6 A. I did report at the KP Dom for work duty towards the end of May,

7 around that time. I can't remember the date.

8 Q. How come you reported for your work obligation? Were you a

9 military conscript?

10 A. I went down there, I was in contact with my friends, my

11 neighbours, et cetera. We had no electricity, and they said that military

12 conscripts were being asked to report, and I was not supposed to report to

13 the military, and since I -- since -- actually, my director -- not my

14 director but the director for commercial affairs, Micun Jokanovic, was

15 working at the KP Dom, and he said that they needed a driver and that I

16 should report for my work obligation because they needed a driver

17 urgently, although there was one driver there, but he could not manage to

18 do everything because there was more and more work. I -- actually, when I

19 arrived there --

20 Q. Just a second, please. Tell me, sir, were you engaged by the

21 military? Were you mobilised by the military maybe?

22 A. No, no. When I left from the village, I went back to Micun

23 Jokanovic's. I went back to the village to say I would be reporting for

24 the work obligation, and I met my commander, who was in charge of the

25 village guards. I said to him that I would be going for my work

Page 6919

1 obligation. He said to me that he had me registered there as some kind of

2 a guard actually at the village, but that I should report to him when I

3 return. However, Micun Jokanovic --

4 Q. Just a second, sir. We've understood this. Tell me, who did you

5 report to at the KP Dom?

6 A. Micun Jokanovic. And Micun Jokanovic told me that Milorad

7 Krnojelac was appointed director of the economy, temporary warden. At

8 that moment, I did not see Milorad Krnojelac. I don't know whether he was

9 there in town or not. The next day, I saw him when he told me that the

10 economy had to get going because the factory had been considerably

11 destroyed - the pipelines, the bakeries couldn't work, electricity, things

12 like that - that we had to set out to carry out a major task, and that is

13 to start up the economy again, the economy having been in a rather

14 critical state.

15 Q. Sir, you don't have to explain all of this to us. We heard about

16 it from previous witnesses. Tell me, please, did you specifically get

17 some assignment, and if so, from whom?

18 A. I got an assignment from Micun, that I was supposed to go on a

19 trip, to take some goods, our goods, because there was no system of

20 payments any longer. We had to be involved in barter in order to provide

21 food, both for humans and for cattle, wherever we could find anything.

22 Q. Did you ask Micun Jokanovic or anyone else specifically to do

23 something else when you were not driving?

24 A. No. Exceptionally I would drive the Furgon from time to time. I

25 asked Micun Jokanovic to spare me a little, and that I wanted to go back

Page 6920

1 to my village again. I didn't want them to drive me very hard because I

2 wanted to finish the work I had started in my village.

3 Q. You said you were driving the Furgon. What did you transport in

4 that vehicle, and where?

5 A. We had a very wide network of business partnerships and

6 cooperation in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, everywhere except

7 in Slovenia, so we had a certain amount of furniture of our own

8 manufacture and we drove it to various places to exchange it for the goods

9 that we needed, and we needed concentrates and food supplies for the

10 people.

11 Q. Did you take back any raw materials for starting production, the

12 furniture factory, or anything else?

13 A. I didn't understand you. Maybe you meant inputs for the furniture

14 production. Yes, yes, we did. We -- if we drove our couch, for instance,

15 to sell it or exchange it for something else, we would take back sponge or

16 something else.

17 Q. Just tell me -- I'm making a pause to check the interpretation.

18 When I'm making a pause, I don't expect you to go on talking, I'm just

19 waiting for the interpretation.

20 Can you just tell me, when the war had already begun and when you

21 reported for work duty, where did you travel?

22 A. To Serbia, to Niksic. That's where we travelled, in those places.

23 And also in Belgrade we found the goods that we were looking for.

24 Q. Did Milorad Krnojelac travel with you?

25 A. Milorad Krnojelac travelled once to see how this could be done and

Page 6921

1 to ask -- since he was a man with a good reputation, he knew how to do

2 these things. So we unloaded furniture, as far as I remember it was in

3 Kragujevac, and that's how we handled it. And then in another warehouse,

4 we took and loaded into our vehicle the food for the KP Dom.

5 Q. Did Milorad Krnojelac travel for the purpose of purchasing goods

6 only once, or did he travel more than once?

7 A. I remember he travelled twice with me to Niksic.

8 Q. If I understood you correctly, in addition to that trip to Serbia,

9 he travelled twice to Niksic?

10 A. Twice to Serbia.

11 THE INTERPRETER: "Twice to Niksic," interpreter's correction.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Do you know that Krnojelac's, Milorad Krnojelac's sons were

14 wounded?

15 A. I know about that well because my own son was wounded as well as

16 his sons.

17 Q. Can you remember when that happened?

18 A. That happened on the 22nd of June, 1992.

19 Q. Can you tell us what kind of injuries they suffered and where they

20 were treated?

21 A. They were admitted into the Foca hospital. We went there in the

22 evening. There were a lot of procedures: puncturing, amputation. One of

23 his sons suffered an injury to the head. I remember we were at the

24 hospital until 6 or 7.00, and then a doctor by the name of Supic told us

25 that they had to go to Belgrade without delay because they were in danger

Page 6922

1 of falling into a coma and dying, if I may put it that way.

2 Q. Allow me to ask you this: Were they actually transferred to

3 Belgrade and when?

4 A. They were transferred to Belgrade by helicopter, I think it was

5 the next day or the day after. I can't say exactly. I was in a state of

6 shock. We followed them and we arrived there on the 24th of July -- June,

7 June.

8 Q. You said you followed them and you arrived there on the 24th of

9 June. When you say "we," who do you mean?

10 A. We followed these young men who were transferred by helicopter,

11 our sons.

12 Q. I understood that much, but who went to Belgrade after them?

13 A. I went by car together with my wife and another of my sons

14 driving, while Milorad and his wife were taken by his son in a different

15 car; so we took two cars.

16 Q. Can you remember, how long did you stay in Belgrade?

17 A. Rather a long time. It seemed like a month to me, though it

18 couldn't have been a month, because I was waiting for the news from the

19 doctors at that hospital. At one point they would say he is in a state of

20 clinical death, and at another point the doctor said he was going to get

21 better. We had family there, though not many; we had more friends, and we

22 stayed with them.

23 But this was a state of painful expectation, and the amputation

24 was done in stages. Sometimes it seemed that they wouldn't have to cut

25 all the way, and at other times they thought the patient would die and

Page 6923

1 they cut some more. But it must have been 12 to 15 days. And when I came

2 back to my village where I had left my cows with a neighbour, I remember

3 him saying to me, "You stayed away for all of 15 days."

4 Q. Thank you, we understood that. We don't need any more details.

5 When you say you stayed that long, could you tell us, did Milorad

6 Krnojelac stay as long as you did?

7 A. Milorad Krnojelac and his wife stayed there, whereas his son, who

8 was employed at the Secretariat of Internal Affairs, came back. And he

9 had that job both before the war and during the war. Milorad and his wife

10 returned together with us.

11 Q. Do you know where Milorad and his wife stayed while they were in

12 Belgrade?

13 A. I do. My wife has this relative in Belgrade, Njegos Dzukovic, and

14 we also have a close friend, Leka Kalajdzic. And Milorad's wife would

15 stay with them, with those people personally, for as long as a month.

16 Q. Could you tell me briefly, where did Milorad and his wife stay?

17 You stated -- you gave us two names.

18 A. They spent more time at Leka Kalajdzic's than at Njegos

19 Dzukovic's.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. You said you were driving a Furgon, delivering

21 furniture?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you ever drive Muslim detainees who were kept at the KP Dom?

24 A. You mean in the Furgon?

25 Q. No, I mean wherever.

Page 6924

1 A. Not in the Furgon. When the farm was working a little, and when

2 we got hold of this concentrate to keep the farm going, I did. There was

3 a TAM vehicle carrying two tonnes, with benches in the back, covered by

4 canvas sheet, and they used to be driven to the farm. And to tell you the

5 truth, I think they worked in facilities with hens, pigs, cows. I didn't

6 really look what they were doing.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. We would also unload the feed that we brought back, et cetera.

9 Q. Do you own a house in Zavajt?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Does your brother Milorad own a house in Zavajt?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You must be aware that your brother Milorad was a teacher in

14 Zavajt for a while?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know where he lived while he was a teacher in Zavajt?

17 A. In the school. There were two schools there, an old one and a new

18 one. The old house was refurbished and turned into a building used for

19 accommodation, and it contained four separate flats. And the other school

20 was used for teaching.

21 Q. When Milorad finished with this job, did he return that apartment

22 to the school?

23 A. That apartment remained the property of the school, and another

24 teacher moved in. I don't suppose that Milorad could have taken it with

25 him, the apartment, I mean.

Page 6925

1 Q. While you were working at the KP Dom, did you ever drive to Zavajt

2 to a barrel maker, and do you know if there is a barrel maker in Zavajt?

3 A. There is no barrel maker in Zavajt. If you ask me --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the interpreter does not

5 really understand the word used by the witness.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, the interpreters are having trouble with

7 one of the words the witness is using.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You said that there was no barrel maker, and you said, "If you ask

10 me whether there is" -- and then you used a word. Could you tell us what

11 that word was and what it means? I think you said "jelika." Can you tell

12 us what that means?

13 A. It's a coniferous tree. It's actually a fir tree used for

14 manufacturing, roofing and furniture and other things. That's what they

15 have in Zavajt, fir trees.

16 Q. I didn't quite understand you. Does -- is it the case that there

17 is -- that they have this type of tree in Zavajt or is there a workshop

18 processing that kind of timber?

19 A. No. I didn't mean a workshop. There is no workshop. They have

20 that kind of tree there.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May I ask the usher -- I don't

22 believe that the witness has this Exhibit D154 in front of him.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Are we going to be left up in the air about the

24 conifer trees? What on earth has this got to do with this case?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't know.

Page 6926

1 That's what the witness said. I have never heard about any of this

2 before, and I cannot possibly know what was in his mind. I've tried to

3 clarify, but I just think that the witness said there was no barrel maker,

4 and using some kind of jargon, he said they had some particular type of

5 tree. But if you want me, I'll try again.

6 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, please. No, no. But just see if you can

7 exert a little bit of influence by leading him to where it is you want to

8 take him, so that you take him to the subject you want him to discuss and

9 just not leave it to him to work out what he wants to say. I can

10 understand he wants to tell us the whole story. We really do not need to

11 know all this detail.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, believe me.

13 I'm doing my utmost to keep this short. And on the other hand, I don't

14 want to restrain this witness completely because we will not be able to

15 get on the transcript what he is saying, and some of it is important to

16 the Defence.

17 Q. Sir, I will ask you just to tell me briefly, can you see in front

18 of you the piece of paper with a name on it. The usher will now show it

19 to you. Will you please read this name, to yourself, though. Don't say

20 it aloud because it is a protected name, and next to that name there is a

21 number, number 73. Have you read the name? Please don't say it aloud,

22 just read the name and tell us -- have you done that?

23 A. Yes, I have read it.

24 Q. Tell me, have you ever driven that person, the person bearing that

25 name number 73, to Zavajt or anywhere else?

Page 6927

1 A. No. I never travelled to Zavajt.

2 Q. Have you ever made any comments in front of that person, the

3 position of your brother in the KP Dom?

4 A. No. There was never any need for me to do that. There was never

5 any need for me to make any comments about him.

6 Q. Do you remember driving that person anywhere at all, or can you

7 remember any situation when that person was present?

8 A. No, I don't. I don't remember any such thing.

9 Q. For the record, can we clarify this? Is it the case that you

10 don't remember, or rather that you remember never having been with him or

11 driving him?

12 A. I didn't drive him.

13 Q. Do you remember, have you ever told anyone that you advised your

14 brother Milorad to refrain from taking that position at the KP Dom?

15 A. No.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague is warning

17 me about the time. Looking from my angle, it seems to be 4.00.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Not quite, but we've got something to say before we

19 go. We've got the videolink tomorrow, so we'll start off with the two

20 witnesses, the taking of their evidence, and Mr. Krnojelac will have to

21 wait until their evidence is taken before he resumes.

22 Right. We'll adjourn now until 9.30 in the morning.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m., to

24 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

25 June, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.