Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7338

1 Wednesday, 13 June 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning,

11 Your Honours; good morning, everyone; good morning, sir.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE HUNT: I think you've been watching Trial Chamber I too

15 often, Mr. Vasic. You're emulating the Presiding Judge there, who manages

16 to say good morning to everybody, even the cleaners in the courtroom.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

18 Q. Sir, yesterday during the cross-examination carried out by my

19 learned friend, you mentioned that you spent a while at the Hotel

20 Zelengora when your house burned down. The hotel consisted of an old part

21 and of a new part. Can you tell us whether in the new part of the hotel

22 refugees were also put up at the hotel?

23 A. Yes, refugees were also put up in the new part of the hotel.

24 Q. In this new part of the hotel, did you personally see soldiers?

25 Did you see soldiers living there in those rooms?

Page 7339

1 A. I did not see soldiers living there or staying there, either in

2 the new part or in the old part of the hotel.

3 Q. You said that you were staying on the upper floor, an attic

4 floor. Do you know when this extension was built?

5 A. This old part of the hotel was renovated just before the war, and

6 that part was quite decent. There was hot water, a toilet, a bathroom,

7 that is. It was a two-bedroom, a double room. And I had proper windows.

8 I didn't mind. There were two of us, and I didn't need more than that.

9 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned that underneath the hotel there was

10 a bar. Can you tell me whether that bar was working while you were

11 staying at the hotel?

12 A. It was a bar before the hotel, but while we were staying at the

13 hotel, the cafe wasn't working, the bar wasn't working, nothing, except

14 for the kitchen, where we got our meals, we displaced persons, refugees.

15 Q. Sir, you said to us that after a while you left the apartment that

16 you got for temporary use and that you returned to your house. What about

17 Slavica Krnojelac, Milorad Krnojelac's wife? Did she also leave the

18 apartment they got for temporary use?

19 A. Yes. She also returned to her house. It was repaired, renovated,

20 and she lives there now. I know that she has returned to their house.

21 Q. In response to my learned friend's question, you said that all the

22 workers, on the basis of relevant legal provisions, allocated money to the

23 housing fund, and if you were to be the first person on the list you would

24 get an apartment.

25 A. Yes.

Page 7340

1 Q. Do you know what kind of rights were obtained by persons who

2 were -- who got apartments in this way?

3 A. They did not become owners of the apartments concerned, the

4 persons who lived there. It is the companies that bought apartments and

5 then gave these apartments to their workers for their use. In that way,

6 the worker would live in that apartment and pay rent and electricity and

7 everything else, and would stay there and nobody could make him move. And

8 if he would move, then the apartment would remain to the company that

9 actually bought that apartment.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. Yesterday, in response to my learned friend's

11 question, you talked about the six-month report and the yearly report that

12 you submitted. Were these reports that according to law have to be

13 submitted at a certain period of time in the year?

14 A. These are reports that all companies according to the law on

15 accountancy have to submit every six months and every year. It was

16 nothing specific to the KP Dom or the Drina Economic Unit. It is

17 important for all companies.

18 Q. Can you tell us what the difference is between these reports and

19 the report for which you told us that you prepared figures and that was

20 compiled by the warden in November 1992 for the Ministry of Justice?

21 A. That is quite a different report. This is a report that we submit

22 as work organisations. Actually, those reports are submitted on certain

23 forms and they are all the same, the same form for every organisation.

24 However, these reports that are submitted to the Ministry of Justice are

25 reports that are in the form of a text. There are no forms involved.

Page 7341

1 They are written, they are composed, in order to describe the situation in

2 the -- in the Dom. So there is no connection between the two. These are

3 two quite different reports.

4 Q. You said to us that you were employed by the Drina Economic Unit

5 before the war conflict broke out. Who was then director of the Drina

6 Economic Unit?

7 A. Before the war broke out, I said that already, it was Milenko

8 Simovic.

9 Q. Did you travel with him?

10 A. I travelled with him as well. Whenever it was necessary to make

11 any kind of financial settlements, to close financial deals, somebody from

12 the financial sector had to go to deal with these matters. If it was only

13 contracts related to sales and carrying out those particular contracts,

14 then there was no need for me to travel. If all of that had been agreed

15 upon beforehand, there was no need for me to travel. However, if any kind

16 of financial deals had to be closed and if the accounts had to be settled,

17 either I went or my boss went, somebody from the financial sector.

18 Q. And after July 1993, who was appointed director of the Drina

19 Economic Unit?

20 A. After July 1993?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. After July 1993, a man was appointed warden, Zoran Sekulovic. The

23 director of the Drina Economic Unit was Radojica Tesovic. The assistant

24 warden was Milutin Tijanic. And until then, all of that was carried out

25 by Mr. Krnojelac.

Page 7342

1 Q. When Mr. Radojica Tesovic became director of the Drina Economic

2 Unit, did you also travel with him on the kind of business trips you

3 talked to us earlier on?

4 A. Yes, I travelled with him also precisely when he came, we went on

5 a trip to Serbia and Montenegro.

6 Q. In response to my learned friend's question, you said that at

7 first, convicted persons who were serving their sentences there from

8 before the war were not being paid a salary. Can you tell us why?

9 A. When the war operations broke out and during the first months, we

10 did not make any calculations with regard to the salaries for the

11 convicted persons or for the employees. However, we prepared parcels. We

12 prepared parcels with food, soap, detergents, et cetera, for convicted

13 persons and for employees. And we usually asked them to write down what

14 they needed the most and then we would provide that for them. Because if

15 we gave them money, if we gave them a salary, they were not allowed free

16 movement, so they could not go around searching for the goods they

17 needed. And in that way, we compensated them. Instead of giving them

18 salary to the employees and to the convicts, we gave them these parcels.

19 Q. You said to us yesterday that the services carried out by the

20 metalwork shop were paid by invoices. Was it possible to pay in cash at

21 the cashier's?

22 A. If the buyer had cash, then no invoices were made. We'd give him

23 the goods, he'd give us the money, and that would close the deal.

24 However, if not, then we would send an invoice so that everybody would

25 know how much was owed, when the payment would actually be effected,

Page 7343

1 et cetera.

2 Q. Yesterday, we talked about the travel authorisation that

3 Mr. Krnojelac had on the 24th of June when he travelled to Belgrade. In

4 response to my learned friend's question, you said that in D92, there was

5 no date of return. I would like to know why, in the document for the

6 cashier, there was no date of return?

7 A. You were showing it to me yesterday, this that had to do with the

8 travel authorisation. That is only the copy for taking an advance. You

9 did not show us the -- show me the double sheet of paper where you could

10 see when the person leaves and when the person comes back. You just

11 showed me the travel authorisation according to which Krnojelac collected

12 his advance payment.

13 Q. Is it necessary to enter the date of return in the document that

14 is used for collecting the advance from the cashiers?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please start his answer

16 again. The interpreter did not manage to get it.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, both you and the witness are speaking at a

18 very fast rate. The interpreters missed the whole of the answer that he

19 gave. So you better ask him the question again.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Why was it not necessary to enter the return date in the document

22 that is called the document for the cashier on the basis of which the

23 advance payment is collected?

24 A. That document is only for the purpose of having the person who

25 travels collect his advance, and when a person is about to travel, it is

Page 7344

1 impossible to say when he will return. So that's the kind of form this

2 is. The return date simply is not entered.

3 Q. Can you tell us where the date of return is entered and what this

4 other document is used for?

5 A. On the double sheet of the travel authorisation, the first page is

6 the travel authorisation, and the first page of the second sheet of the

7 other side of this piece of paper is filled out when a person returns from

8 his trip, and that is where a final calculation of all the expenses

9 incurred during that trip is made.

10 Q. In that form, what does it say in -- what does it say on this

11 double-sided document? What does it say?

12 A. Order for the cashier.

13 Q. That's what it says on the order for the cashier, but what does it

14 say on the double document?

15 A. On the first page it says "the original" and the same text as on

16 the order for the cashier, and on the other side it says "calculation of

17 expenses incurred."

18 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you know when Milorad Krnojelac, on the 24th

19 of June, 1992, whether he provided a replacement for himself while he

20 would be away, and who was this replacement?

21 A. When Milorad Krnojelac went to Belgrade, he was replaced in

22 respect of administrative and technical affairs in the KP Dom, Milun

23 Vujevic, the head of the legal department there. And as far as economic

24 and commercial matters are concerned, he was replaced by Micun Jokanovic.

25 In the production units, it is the chiefs of the production units that

Page 7345

1 stood in for him.

2 Q. Sir, you talked to us about the books where the travel

3 authorisations and decisions were registered and filed. Is it one and the

4 same books or separate books?

5 A. Separate books. One is of the travel authorisation, the other is

6 the book where the decisions are kept, and then yet separately the file

7 containing letters to the ministry and to other institutions.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

9 would like to show the witness ID D81 and ID D82.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Does this arise out of cross-examination, Mr. Vasic?

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. My learned friend

12 asked the witness precisely about these documents, whether the requests

13 were identical, and that is what my question is about.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Does that mean that they're in evidence, these

15 documents?

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] These documents will be tendered into

17 evidence, but during the testimony of the accused, because he's the person

18 who signed them.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Very well.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, could you please read the contents of 81 and the document

22 marked as 82. Are these requests identical in terms of their substance?

23 A. The first one is the Serb police station -- is addressed to the

24 Serb police station in Foca, and we are informing them that during the war

25 operations, all of our passenger vehicles went missing, as well as all

Page 7346













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7347

1 other special purpose vehicles, and they haven't been found yet and they

2 haven't been returned to us.

3 Q. What about the other letter?

4 A. We also asked the police station to try to find these vehicles of

5 ours and have them returned to us. That is the substance of D81. As for

6 the substance of D82, again we asked the Serb police station in Foca to

7 allocate one passenger vehicle to us for meeting our needs, because of

8 what we had already informed them about, and that is that all our

9 passenger vehicles had gone missing during the war operations and that

10 they hadn't been found or returned to us yet.

11 Q. So what came first: the request to find the vehicles and then the

12 request to have new vehicles allocated?

13 A. This is quite obvious, because the first document is dated the 7th

14 of May and the second document is dated the 8th of May, so I think that is

15 quite evident.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. We won't be needing

17 these documents any longer.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Both of you really must be careful. You are both

19 starting to answer the question or to ask another question when the

20 translation is still being heard.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps we

22 try to save up as much time as possible, but we really won't yield any

23 results if we go on this way. We'll try to pay attention.

24 JUDGE HUNT: You are in fact delaying it by doing it, so please,

25 let's get on at a reasonable rate.

Page 7348

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Sir, do you know what position Mr. Radojica Tesovic had after the

3 war conflict ended in 1996 and 1997 in the political structures of the

4 Foca municipality?

5 A. I know that Mr. Tesovic came to be our director sometime in August

6 1993. After that he went as the candidate of the ruling party to become

7 president of the executive committee. And I think he's retired or will be

8 retired. He did not return to the Dom after that.

9 Q. You said "the ruling party." What was the ruling party at that

10 time?

11 A. The SDS was the ruling party in Foca at that time.

12 Q. Was the SDS the only party in power or was there a coalition at

13 that time?

14 A. It was a coalition with the radicals, and one party had the

15 presidency of the municipality, that particular position, whereas the

16 other party had the office of the president of the executive committee.

17 JUDGE HUNT: The witness has referred to "the radicals" before in

18 cross-examination, but nobody has ever asked him what he means by that

19 phrase. It could mean almost anything in politics these days. He may be

20 referring to the Muslim party. I don't know. We shouldn't have to guess,

21 really.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Can you tell us which party this is, actually, when you refer to

24 "the radicals"?

25 A. The Serb Radical Party. Its representative and the president of

Page 7349

1 the municipality was ...

2 Q. If you can't remember, you can't.

3 A. I can't remember, but it's a well-known person. I can't.

4 Q. Sir, in response to my learned friend's question, you mentioned

5 that Mr. Mitar Rasevic and Mr. Savo Todovic came to Milorad Krnojelac.

6 Did they often come to see Milorad Krnojelac?

7 A. As far as I know, they came seldom. When I would come, they

8 wouldn't be there. Whether they came when I was not there, I don't know,

9 but I did not see them coming often.

10 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Todovic and Mr. Rasevic came to see

11 Mr. Krnojelac together?

12 A. I really cannot remember having seen them, neither together nor

13 separately. I didn't see them separately very often either.

14 Q. Do you know which office was used by Savo Todovic in 1992, 1993 in

15 the administration building of the KP Dom?

16 A. That's the lawyer's office. That's upstairs.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour?

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I actually didn't want to interrupt but now

20 Mr. Vasic is actually now addressing issues that I did not address at

21 all. I did not talk about Mr. Tesovic's political position. I didn't

22 talk about Mr. Todovic, where he was sitting and so on. It's completely

23 new. He's now starting to get issues in that I did not address at all.

24 JUDGE HUNT: There was a reference to Mr. Rasevic's political

25 position. But you are straying way, way beyond what arose out of

Page 7350

1 cross-examination. If you want to ask these questions, you may do so by

2 leave, but that gives the Prosecution the right to cross-examine on them.

3 This witness has gone for far longer than estimated, far longer, if I may

4 say so, than is necessary. He persists in telling us everything two or

5 three times and at great length. The sooner we can get on to the next

6 witness, I think the happier we will all be.

7 Now, if you have something new that you want to raise, you may do

8 so, but subject only to the right of the Prosecution to cross-examine on

9 it.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. However, my

11 learned friend asked the gentleman yesterday whether Savo Todovic and

12 Mitar Rasevic came to Milorad Krnojelac's office, and on that basis I'm

13 just trying to ask where they worked, where their office was located.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Hunt, please.

15 JUDGE HUNT: You are entitled to ask how often he came. You've

16 asked that, you've got a very lengthy answer. Now, anything more goes

17 beyond what was raised in cross-examination. Simply because there is a

18 reference to him visiting Mr. Krnojelac in his office does not open up the

19 whole issue of the geography of the place. Now, please, let us stick to

20 the issues raised in cross-examination or you seek leave to raise them

21 anew so that the Prosecution can cross-examine on them if they wish. But

22 you are not going to have another examination-in-chief at this stage

23 unless the Prosecution has the right to cross-examine on it.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Actually, I

25 just have one more question.

Page 7351

1 Q. Sir, in response to my learned friend's question, you said that

2 you know that Mr. Veselin Cancar was convicted and sentenced to 11 years

3 in prison on the basis of the court -- decision passed by the Court of the

4 Federation. Do you know where Mr. Cancar is now?

5 A. I know. This man has been free for a long time now. I think that

6 it was very fortunate that this trial was followed by the international

7 community so things did not go the way the initial judgement had been

8 formulated. So it was the kind of trial where the judges were the

9 prosecutors and the judges.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. The Defence has no

11 further questions in re-examination, thank you.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you for giving evidence, sir. You're now free

13 to leave.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE HUNT: Now, there is an issue here about the law on national

16 defence. What is the attitude of the Defence to the tender by the

17 Prosecution of that document?

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P457 and the English

20 version will be P457A.

21 Yes, Mr. Bakrac, next witness? Is this the --

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: The accused's son, is it?

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It is, Bozidar Krnojelac, Your

25 Honour.

Page 7352

1 JUDGE HUNT: The one in the wheelchair.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Will we be able to fit the wheelchair behind the

4 table there or will we need a separate microphone for him? We will see

5 how we go.

6 MS. KUO: Your Honour, while we have a break --


8 MS. KUO: Perhaps the Prosecution can address the concern the

9 Court raised yesterday about the indictment. Having reviewed the matter,

10 the Prosecution completely understands the Court's concern and we are

11 perfectly willing to amend the indictment if that's necessary, but

12 hopefully I can offer an explanation that would make that unnecessary.

13 My understanding is that the Court sees that there is an omission

14 in the indictment regarding deportation as one of the subparts of

15 persecution. That is count 1. And it's true that under paragraph 5(2) --

16 actually, paragraph 5(2) is several paragraphs, but under the first part

17 where it enumerates five different elements or parts of the persecution,

18 deportation is not listed. Deportation is listed, however, in a separate

19 paragraph at the end of that particular section.

20 JUDGE HUNT: My concern with that is this, Ms. Kuo. The last

21 paragraph deals with the actual part which the accused played in something

22 which is nowhere else pleaded in the paragraph about deportation or

23 expulsion by selecting detainees from the KP Dom for deportation. Now,

24 you may have found some evidence of him actually selecting but I recall

25 none at all. My understanding is that you seek to make him responsible

Page 7353













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7354

1 for superior -- as a superior, for what was done by others but which is

2 nowhere else pleaded.

3 Now, let me just say this. We raised it because there is no

4 reference anywhere for example to plum pickers, either here or in the

5 pre-trial brief. The pre-trial brief, however, does make it very clear

6 the nature of the Prosecution case in relation to the people sent off for

7 exchange. And so far as I'm concerned, the accused has had more than

8 adequate notice, and indeed they have fought the issue very fully and

9 without objection. My concern is that an indictment nevertheless is more

10 than just a formality, because the result of this trial will depend upon

11 whether Mr. Krnojelac can be prosecuted for anything else that may have

12 arisen during the trial but which is not in the indictment. It's not just

13 a matter of formality. It's a very important right that the accused has.

14 So that one must look in the indictment for where a particular incident is

15 to be found.

16 Now, it is not anywhere very clearly put. That's why I raised it

17 with you. If the Prosecution wants to take some risk of a technical issue

18 being raised on appeal, it's up to you. I have raised it. I have

19 expressed some concern about it. If I were in your position, I would

20 amend. I can't direct you to, but you will have to take the risk. And I

21 realise that I have been very critical of this indictment in a number of

22 judgments, and I've probably injured a couple of egos about it, but sloppy

23 pleading is one thing but no pleading is something else.

24 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. If I understand you correctly, you

25 mean that the specific incidents such as the plum pickers should be

Page 7355

1 specifically specified rather than simply our saying it's covered under

2 that particular paragraph.


4 MS. KUO: Okay.

5 JUDGE HUNT: There has been plenty of notice given. The

6 indictment, although it actually hasn't referred to plum pickers, has

7 dealt with the other matter in great detail so the Defence has always been

8 under notice of it and indeed has fought the issue. But I'm concerned

9 about the technicalities of it, and despite all of that, there may be a

10 problem for you on appeal even if we said we are going to consider it.

11 Now, that's a matter for you.

12 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much for that

13 clarification. We were then under a misunderstanding about what the

14 concern was and it's now clear.

15 JUDGE HUNT: What are you going to do?

16 MS. KUO: We will look at the issue and we will amend it.

17 JUDGE HUNT: I think you should. Perhaps I'm overcautious but I

18 have been sitting on a court of criminal appeal in Australia for something

19 like 15 years and I am only too aware of what can happen on appeal where

20 different counsel and different ideas are raised. And I'm always

21 concerned as a trial judge to ensure that no such problem can arise from a

22 trial with which I have had something to do.

23 MS. KUO: One can never be too cautious.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Right.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 7356

1 JUDGE HUNT: Now, sir, would you please take the solemn

2 declaration in the document the usher is showing you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. Now, if you have any problem with

8 the wheelchair there, please let us know.

9 Mr. Bakrac?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure if I

11 should say good morning to anyone. I had better skip that.

12 JUDGE HUNT: You do that, by all means. It's just that Mr. Vasic

13 was starting to fall into a formula which I've heard too often.

14 Examined by Mr. Bakrac:

15 Q. Good morning, sir.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. Can you hear me? Can you follow? I should like to ask you first

18 something that is also heard every day in this courtroom. Since we both

19 speak the same language, please wait for the interpretation of my question

20 to finish and only then start answering. Perhaps it would be convenient

21 for you to follow the transcript on the monitor in front of you, and when

22 you see the typing has stopped, you can start answering.

23 Can we start? Can we please hear your name and surname.

24 A. Bozidar Krnojelac.

25 Q. When and where were you born?

Page 7357

1 A. I was born on the 8th of December, 1967, in Foca.

2 Q. Are you married?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you have any children?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many?

7 A. I haven't got four sons yet, like my father, but I hope I will

8 eventually. For the time being, I have two sons.

9 Q. Do you want us to make a short break? I said this before the

10 Court's leave, but --

11 A. No, thank you. I don't need it.

12 JUDGE HUNT: If you do at any stage, please don't hesitate to let

13 us know.

14 A. All right.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. The accused, Milorad Krnojelac, is your father, isn't he?

17 A. Yes, he's my father.

18 Q. What is your occupation?

19 A. I graduated from the secondary school for electrical engineering,

20 electrical and power installations.

21 Q. Were you employed before the war broke out, and where?

22 A. Yes. I was employed in the forestry and industrial complex of

23 Maglic, on the maintenance of plants.

24 Q. On the 8th of April, when the war operations broke out in the town

25 of Foca, where were you? Were you at work?

Page 7358

1 A. On the 8th of April I left for work, and when I reached the bridge

2 I saw, 100 metres away, a roadblock and a crowd. People were coming back

3 from that point. And I asked them what was going on, and they said they

4 didn't know, but they wouldn't let them go to work. So I went back home

5 too. I didn't go to work that day.

6 Q. When you returned home, who was there? Do you remember?

7 A. You mean at home? I found my brother Spomenko, my brother

8 Dubravko, and Nedjo Novovic, who had come to work at the catering

9 establishment we had. My father Milorad and mother Slavica had gone to

10 work.

11 Q. Did they come back early that day too?

12 A. My father came very soon after me, and my mother returned just

13 before the shooting started that day.

14 Q. On that 8th of April, did you all remain at home in Donje Polje?

15 A. Well, until 1.00 we did, and then my brother Dubravko was called

16 on the telephone by the police station. Since he was in the reserve

17 forces of the police, he had to report to the station.

18 Q. And the rest of you, did you remain at home?

19 A. Yes, we did, and Nedjo Novovic's girlfriend also came, and she was

20 with us too.

21 Q. Tell me: In the days that followed, were you at home, and until

22 what time?

23 A. I have to explain this a little. On the 8th of April, around

24 10.00, shooting started from both sides, from both the Muslim and the

25 Serbian sides, and the first shots were fired from a hill of Celovina and

Page 7359

1 near Cafe Bor in Donje Polje. The shooting lasted for about two or three

2 hours - I can't remember exactly - and then it stopped, and this quiet

3 lasted for about a couple of hours and the shooting started again during

4 the night, so we spent that time at home.

5 Q. We don't need many details about the first day, about the

6 shooting.

7 A. I'll finish very quickly. In fact, I'll move on to the 9th and

8 10th of April. These two days go together, because in a way, those two

9 days were relatively quiet. Later we heard stories to the effect that

10 some peace delegations were established on both the Muslim and the Serbian

11 sides to negotiate in a peaceful manner, to reach an agreement, a peaceful

12 agreement.

13 Q. If I understood you correctly, those attempts to preserve peace

14 were on the 9th and the 10th.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the situation was calming down, sort of?

17 A. That's how it should have been, but already on the 11th, around

18 noon, let's say, shooting started again, from all sides. You couldn't

19 tell who was shooting from where. And that was especially prominent in

20 our area, noticeable in our area, because -- in fact, the old school, Ivan

21 Goran Kovacic, which was abandoned --

22 Q. You don't have to wait in the middle of your sentence. Don't

23 speak fast, but do finish your sentences without making any pauses in the

24 middle.

25 JUDGE HUNT: The only pause that is required is before you start

Page 7360













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7361

1 your answer. That's when the interpreters have to be able to catch up.

2 But they are able to keep up with you pretty well at this stage. I'll

3 stop you if they can't.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. So you said on the 11th the shooting started from all sides.

6 A. The old school Ivan Goran Kovacic was where the Muslims gathered

7 and the Green Berets carrying weapons in large numbers, and there was a

8 lot of shooting from that part and we could hear and see that. Shall I

9 continue?

10 Q. Yes, but we don't want to hear unnecessary details, so I had

11 better put questions to you. Did you stay at home that day or did you

12 decide to leave your home, and how?

13 A. In the evening of that day we decided to leave our home, because

14 it was getting dark and the weather had deteriorated. It was foggy,

15 unbelievably, because it was April. It started snowing. And since my

16 brother Dubravko had left to the police station with my car, the only car

17 we had was a Fiat 750 which belonged to Nedjo Novovic. So at first, my

18 brother, my father, myself [as interpreted], and my brother Spomenko made

19 the first trip to Cerezluk, and when my brother drove them, my brother

20 Spomenko returned to pick up myself and Silvana, my girlfriend.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague,

22 Mr. Vasic, is telling me that instead of "my father" -- "my brother, my

23 father, and my mother," it says, "my father, my brother, and myself." You

24 can see from the transcript that this is illogical.

25 JUDGE HUNT: This is relying --

Page 7362

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We have "brother" twice.

2 JUDGE HUNT: [Previous translation continues] ...

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. In line 9, it

4 should be "my mother" instead of "myself," and we can see from the

5 continuation of this the witness took -- made the trip the second time

6 around.

7 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest you just ask him the question and clear

8 it up.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Sir, can you tell us again: You said you used this Fiat owned by

11 Nedjo. Who went first?

12 A. My father, mother, and brother Spomenko, and they were driven by

13 Nedjeljko in his car, Nedjeljko's car. And then he returned to pick up

14 myself, Silvana, Nedjeljko's girlfriend, and he came along.

15 Q. So you went all together to Cerezluk to your uncle's house?

16 A. Yes. My late uncle Sreta's house, which also belonged to my uncle

17 Arso.

18 Q. Again, it's not reflected in the transcript. When Nedjeljko

19 returned to pick up yourself and his girlfriend, was there your brother

20 Spomenko too?

21 A. Yes, he was. It was logical, because of the situation, that

22 Nedjeljko should not be alone in the car. Spomenko returned with him and

23 made him company on that second trip.

24 Q. Thank you. Tell me, when you left your house, did you or your

25 parents or anyone, did you take anything with you?

Page 7363

1 A. Well, who could have thought of such things at that moment? We --

2 we only took from the house what we were wearing.

3 Q. Do you want us to make a short break?

4 A. No, no, no.

5 Q. Sir, I will try to make this examination brief and concentrate on

6 some specific things. Will you please tell me, when you left for your

7 uncle's house, what time was it when you arrived?

8 A. I said sometime before dusk. I don't know exactly. Around 5.00,

9 6.00, 5.00 or 6.00 p.m. It was the 11th of April.

10 Q. After that, where were you and what did you do?

11 A. We were in the basement. We spent that first evening in the

12 basement, in the make-shift workshop of my uncle Sreta, and that's where

13 his family was too. So we spent the night downstairs in the basement that

14 day.

15 Q. What about the next day? Did you stay in the house or did you go

16 anywhere?

17 A. No. The next day, Vitomir, Arso's son, came back home from his

18 guard duty to pick up something, to take some food, although there was

19 very little. In fact, he took mostly bread. And then Spomenko and myself

20 joined him. He told us he was going to guard duty. They had to secure

21 the old pool. I'm saying "the old pool" because later a new pool was

22 built in a different place. And when we heard this from him, we also

23 volunteered to join the guards who were securing the pool.

24 Q. When you say "the pool," do you mean the water reservoir which

25 serves the purposes of water supply for the town?

Page 7364

1 A. Yes. That's what I mean, because the first reservoir could not

2 supply the whole town because the population grew, and that's why a new

3 reservoir of fresh water had to be built.

4 Q. How long, until what date, did you keep guard duty around that

5 water reservoir?

6 A. Until the 20th of April, when our commander of the guards came,

7 Vujicic, to tell us that it's all over, that there is no need to secure

8 this place any more, and that we had to go and get our assignments in the

9 secondary school centre in Aladza.

10 Q. In the meantime, from the 11th and the 12th of April and during

11 those days when you kept guard duty, did you visit your uncle's house?

12 A. Occasionally, and only very briefly, just to change, because my

13 brother Vitomir and Mosa gave us whatever they had in terms of clothing,

14 because we had nothing of our own, except what we were wearing when we

15 left our home.

16 Q. Did you hear in the meantime that your own house had burned?

17 A. Yes. I heard about that. I don't know whether it was the 12th or

18 the 13th or the 15th. I couldn't say exactly. All I know is that I was

19 on guard duty that day, and the next day, when I returned, there was still

20 smoke coming out. I don't know when I heard about this, but it must have

21 been two or three days after our arrival at Cerezluk.

22 Q. When you stood on guard near the water reservoir, were you armed,

23 and how?

24 A. Yes. The guard before me would give his replacement his rifle,

25 which we called Tandzera, and that's the old M-48 rifle.

Page 7365

1 Q. You said on the 20th, the guards commander Vujicic came and

2 informed you that there was no need to keep guard there any more and that

3 you had to report for the mobilisation in the secondary school centre.

4 Did you do that, and how many were you?

5 A. The whole group who kept guard went. We were about ten, together

6 with the commander Vujicic. We went to the secondary school centre and we

7 were received there by Lakovic. I think it's Dragan Lakovic. All I know

8 for sure is that his nickname was Prle. He received us, and since

9 commander Vujicic had already had this group of ten men, they offered him

10 to be the leader of the Intervention Platoon, and that's what actually

11 happened, and we got another ten soldiers.

12 Q. You said "Intervention Platoon." What did that imply?

13 A. Intervention Platoon? Intervention Platoon? The very name shows

14 that it was supposed to intervene. I mean, it worked from the rear and

15 was supposed to intervene if there were an attack on the front, to

16 reinforce that part of the front line and the positions there.

17 Q. So when you were given this mobilisation task, where did you go

18 after that?

19 A. After that, we went to Livade where we were issued weapons and

20 uniforms. However, not all of us could be issued with this because there

21 weren't all the right sizes, so some of us had uniforms and others

22 remained wearing their own clothes. I, for example, could not get the

23 right-size uniform so I remained wearing my own clothes.

24 Q. What kind of weapons were you issued?

25 A. There were diverse weapons, automatic rifles, PAP rifles, et

Page 7366

1 cetera.

2 Q. I'm asking about you specifically.

3 A. I was issued an automatic rifle.

4 Q. After being issued with all of this at Livade, can you remember

5 where you went then?

6 A. Of course I can. We went back home. It was sometime in the

7 afternoon. When I say "home," I'm referring to Cerezluk, to my uncle's

8 house, where I saw my father too. He said to me that the executive

9 committee had given him work obligation at the KP Dom.

10 Q. Did he say anything else to you as to who he had found at the KP

11 Dom and whether he had been at the KP Dom at all, and if so, who he had

12 found there?

13 A. He returned on that day. I think he had been absent for two

14 days. That's what they told me.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, do remember to pause before your answer. You

16 came in well on top of the interpreter at that time and she was running

17 hard to keep up with you.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Please proceed now.

20 A. Yes. He said that the people from Uzice were down there, the Beli

21 Orlovi, the White Eagles, and that they were keeping some Muslims

22 detained. I asked him, "What is your duty down there?" And he said to me

23 that he did not have any obligations with regard to that part of the

24 prison.

25 Q. And the next day, did you go to the KP Dom with him, and why, if

Page 7367













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Page 7368

1 so?

2 A. First of all, on the 20th, when I heard that, that the White

3 Eagles were down there, I went to my commanding officer to see whether he

4 could let me go and allow me to stay with my father for a few days, and he

5 allowed that. So on the 21st, I went together with my father down there.

6 Q. Why did you go with him?

7 A. It was well known who the White Eagles were, that they came -- how

8 should I put this? They came to our parts to get some booty; let's put it

9 that way. So I was afraid for my father so I went down there.

10 Q. How -- for how long did you go with him to the KP Dom and did you

11 go every day?

12 A. Approximately for about 20 days, and I was with him every day

13 during those days.

14 Q. Until when did you stay at the KP Dom in terms of each particular

15 day?

16 A. From 7.00 in the morning until 3.00 in the afternoon.

17 Q. Where was your father during those 20 days while you were coming

18 there? Was he using some office, and if so, can you tell us which one?

19 A. Yes. He was using the first office on the left-hand side. That

20 is -- what was it called? It was called the censorship before. So when

21 you enter the first office on the left-hand side, the first door on the

22 left-hand side.

23 Q. During those 20 days, did you see some people who also worked at

24 the KP Dom while you were there with your father?

25 A. Yes. Of course. It depended on the day concerned. Lazar

Page 7369

1 Divljan, Relja Goljanin, Micun Jokanovic, Bozo Drakul, and the others who

2 were employed in the KP Dom.

3 Q. I'm sorry, but in response to my previous question, you said the

4 first office on the left-hand side. Which hallway is that in relation to

5 the main entrance to the KP Dom?

6 A. When you enter the main hallway, there is a hallway on the

7 right-hand side, and on the left-hand side is something like a reception

8 office, and to the right is a hall. So when you turn into that hall on

9 the right, it is the first office, the first door on the left-hand side.

10 Q. Thank you. You told me which employees of the KP Dom you saw

11 during those days while you were coming. Did you see any soldiers, these

12 paramilitaries?

13 A. Of course I did. They passed through that hall and they entered

14 the compound that way, and every now and then they were bringing people

15 into custody as well.

16 Q. At your father's office, did you ever see any detained Muslims?

17 A. I can't remember the exact date, but sometime towards the end of

18 April, they brought - what's its name? - [redacted]. That was our

19 neighbour's nephew or something like that. They brought him.

20 Q. Were you present when they brought [redacted], and do you remember

21 who brought him?

22 A. Cato brought him in. I think that's what they called him, a man

23 from Uzice. He brought him to the door, pushed him into the room. As far

24 as I can remember, he said, "You want to see this one?" And Mico said,

25 "Yes. Let him come in," and he offered him to sit down in a chair. I

Page 7370

1 was standing on the side. There was some kind of a big old like x-ray

2 machine over there. [redacted] and Mico greeted each other. As far as I can

3 remember, he asked him to let him go see his uncle, our neighbour, and

4 Mico answered him, "I can't, until I see with the people from Uzice." And

5 he sent me to call their commanding officer. His name is Bozidar. I

6 remember that well, because we have the same first name. He came and Mico

7 asked him whether Mr. [redacted] could go to the house, because he would be

8 escorted by me. And this gentleman, Bozidar, from Uzice, he said, "He can

9 only if my soldier escorts him," and that's how we went out of the KP Dom.

10 There was a Lada there. They used it, but I think that the

11 registration plate on it was from Uzice also. I tried to sit in the back

12 seat; however, this man said to me, "No, no. You're going to drive. I'm

13 going to sit in the back and pay attention to everything." So I sat at

14 the wheel, and since I was familiar with the road leading to our house, to

15 the house, we came to the yard and we walked into Almazbeg's house.

16 When we opened the door, we found him between the table and the

17 bed. He had fallen. The man had probably wanted to get something and

18 then he couldn't stand on his feet. He was in a very serious condition.

19 Mr. [redacted] and I lifted him onto the bed. We gave him some water to drink.

20 He tried to establish contact with him, but as far as I can remember, he

21 could barely understand him, and actually, I think that Almazbeg didn't

22 even manage to recognise him. That's what his condition was like.

23 Q. After that, did you return to the KP Dom?

24 A. After that we returned to the KP Dom, although Mr. [redacted] asked me

25 to go and see his wife, Nafa, and tell her about Almazbeg. When I

Page 7371

1 returned from Nafa, my father gave me some tins that had remained in the

2 office from their breakfast, and he gave them to me and told me to take

3 them to him.

4 Q. You say "to him." You mean to Almazbeg?

5 A. Yes, yes, I meant Almazbeg.

6 Q. Did you take that?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Do you know whether, later, any members of your family or whether

9 you personally or other members of your family stopped by to see Almazbeg?

10 A. As far as I know, my brother Dubravko went a few times to see

11 Almazbeg for sure, but I think that Mrs. Nafa, the wife of Mr. [redacted]

12 [redacted], was also there.

13 Q. Can you remember whether you saw any other Muslim detainees coming

14 to see your father at that time?

15 A. As far as I can remember, I think Mr. [redacted]. That's a

16 doctor. He was the house doctor. But this was very brief, because the

17 soldiers would come in and issue warnings to the effect that he should not

18 stay too long, practically that there should not be much contact with him.

19 Q. When Mr. [redacted] was there, what were you wearing? Can you

20 remember that?

21 A. Of course I can. I wore my green jacket, a black turtle-neck

22 shirt, and black jeans. That's the same clothes I wore when I had my

23 accident on the 22nd of June.

24 Q. Did you have any weapons on you?

25 A. Yes, I did, what I had been issued.

Page 7372

1 Q. You said that you came to the KP Dom with your father for about 20

2 days. Did you ever enter the compound of the KP Dom?

3 A. No, I never entered the compound, for sure.

4 Q. Did you eat anything at the KP Dom?

5 A. Of course I did. Food was brought to us from the third or the

6 fourth room on the left-hand side. That's where visitors came to see the

7 previous convicts. There were tables and chairs, benches, so that's where

8 we took breakfast in the morning.

9 Q. You said that you spent about 20 days with your father at the KP

10 Dom, and in view of that fact, can you remember his activities during

11 those days? Which activities were they, if you can remember?

12 A. Well, you see, my father's activities: to repair the damaged

13 buildings. That is to say that he was supposed to get together these

14 people who were working in these buildings. I already mentioned the

15 persons who came to see him, but I can repeat their names: Relja

16 Goljanin, who was in charge of the metalwork shop; Momir Krnojelac, who

17 was head of the factory; Micun Jokanovic and Bozo Drakul. They worked on

18 economic affairs. Not economic affairs. How should I put this?

19 Financial matters. Then Mr. Novica Mojevic, who had the farm up there at

20 Brioni.

21 Q. Did you go to the farm with your father perhaps?

22 A. Yes, of course I did.

23 Q. Could you please just wait for the question to be interpreted.

24 A. Yes, of course. We went there a few times. I can't remember

25 exactly how many times, but we were there often.

Page 7373

1 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me: After these 20-odd days, why did you

2 stop going to the KP Dom?

3 A. I can say that this was some kind of a peaceful period in our

4 town. There weren't any shifts in the lines, if I can put it that way.

5 There weren't any attacks from the Muslim side, so those lines that were

6 established at first remained rather stable because there weren't any

7 attacks from the other side. I had to go to Preljuca, so I was called by

8 my commanding officer and I had to go up there.

9 Q. Before your accident, were you only at Preljuca or were you

10 manning the front line elsewhere too?

11 A. I was at Repetitor. I was at Zebina Suma, Osanice, and finally

12 Tjentiste, where I had my accident.

13 Q. You or your Intervention Platoon or your brother Spomenko, did you

14 ever have any actions in town? How should I put this? Did you ever tour

15 buildings and apartments in Foca?

16 A. No. I told you at the beginning what my platoon's duty was. We

17 never did. We could not do that, nor did we do it. As far as I heard, it

18 was people from the Serb guard who were doing that, because both the White

19 Eagles and the Serb guard were in Foca during those days, and they were

20 given that duty, and they went with some local people who went with them.

21 First of all, I was with my father at the KP Dom from 7.00 to 3.00, so I

22 really did not participate in that.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please: Do you know when you had your

24 accident? Can you remember the date? I do apologise, but I have to put

25 this question to you that way.

Page 7374













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7375

1 A. I can't forget that. The 22nd of June, 1992, at a hill called

2 Kosur.

3 Q. Was your brother with you and was he affected by the accident?

4 A. My brother was there too, and also my cousin Vitomir, Arso's son,

5 and there were other men. There were nine people killed there on the

6 spot, and I sustained grave injuries.

7 Q. What kind of wounds were sustained by Vitomir and the others?

8 A. Vitomir also remained without both legs, and Spomenko, due to the

9 explosion, was wounded in the ears. His eardrums were broken.

10 Q. Do you remember where you were transferred from the place of this

11 accident, and when?

12 A. We were transferred -- let me first tell that you this was around

13 2.00, and after that we were transferred to the hospital in Foca, and

14 that's where they took us in. I remember the journey there partly, and

15 partly I don't. I was probably losing consciousness, because I had bled a

16 lot. I know that when I arrived in hospital, I passed out, and I don't

17 remember anything until the morning. But they told me that I had even

18 been singled out to be taken to the morgue, that I had been declared

19 clinically dead for about an hour, and I know that they came to see my

20 mother and father and to express condolences to them.

21 Q. Tell me, after this surgery in Foca on the 23rd, were you

22 transferred to some other place?

23 A. Yes. In Foca, only my right leg was cut off, although all of that

24 was pretty bad. I'll tell you about it later. On the 23rd, sometime

25 around noon, we were transferred by helicopter. I really don't know how

Page 7376

1 that helicopter happened to be in our town, who had come in that

2 helicopter, whether they had called it in. I really don't know about

3 that. But I know that around noon, we were taken to Belgrade to the VMA,

4 the military medical academy.

5 Q. How long did you stay at the VMA, do you remember that, until

6 which date?

7 A. Of course I remember. I stayed there until the 31st of July 1992.

8 Q. When you were transferred to the VMA, did you have any other

9 surgery performed on you? Were there any complications involved?

10 A. Yes, of course. As soon as I got to the VMA, my left leg was

11 affected by gangrene and they cut it off immediately. First they cut a

12 bit lower. However, the gangrene had gone pretty high up, so my left leg

13 was amputated very high up. That is to say that they cut it off more than

14 they had the right leg. And then after that, the right leg was affected

15 too. There was an infection there as well. This was what was done in

16 Foca, so they had to improve on the right leg as well during those first

17 days as well. For about 12 to 15 days, I was in intensive care at the

18 VMA.

19 Q. Do you remember, and do you know, which members of your family

20 were in Belgrade by your side at that time?

21 A. Of course I know. My father Milorad was there, my mother Slavica,

22 my uncle Arso, my aunt Jovana, Momir Krnojelac. I don't remember my

23 brother Dubravko, but they told me that he was there, that he had driven

24 them to Belgrade.

25 Q. After leaving the VMA, where did you go? Did you go back to Foca

Page 7377

1 or did you go to another institution?

2 A. From the VMA, I was transferred to the Rudo Institute. That's an

3 institute for rehabilitation and for prosthesis fitting for legs, arms, et

4 cetera.

5 Q. How long did you stay at that institution, can you remember?

6 A. The 25th of December 1992. I remember that because on that date,

7 my mother celebrates her Christmas.

8 Q. Did you go back to Foca on that day?

9 A. Yes. I know that there was a big festive lunch like every year

10 before that.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher,

12 please, to show the witness ID D91, 91/1 and 91/2.

13 Q. Sir, could you please look at these three letters, at these three

14 letters of discharge? Are they all related to you? Do they all pertain

15 to you? That's all I really want to ask.

16 A. Yes. These are letters of discharge from the Foca hospital, from

17 the VMA, and also from the Rudo Institution.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't want to go into

19 great detail with regard to these documents, these letters of discharge.

20 I believe it is sufficient for us to tender them into evidence, and we

21 would like to do that now, please.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Do they have a number, an ID number?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, ID D--

24 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, yes, 91. Any objection, Ms. Kuo?

25 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

Page 7378

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. They will be Exhibits D91, 91/1, 91/2.

2 Are there English translations?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HUNT: They will also be D91A, 91/1A and 91/2A.

5 We will take the adjournment now and resume at 11.30.

6 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Sir, can we continue?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Before the break, we discussed those letters of discharge that you

13 identified. You said that on the 25th you returned to Foca. Did you

14 return to your parents'?

15 A. Yes. I said I returned to my parents' on the 25th of December,

16 1992, but that was no longer at the Zelengora Hotel, but an apartment,

17 Mr. Sosevic's apartment, which was allocated for temporary use. It was an

18 apartment owned by the KP Dom, and Mr. or Dr. Sosevic had tenants'

19 rights. I don't know -- in fact, I think he's a doctor.

20 Q. You mentioned that they were no longer at the hotel. When did you

21 move from Cerezluk to the Hotel Zelengora? Can you tell us?

22 A. Approximately at the time when I returned from the front line at

23 Preljuca. That was after the 20th of May.

24 Q. This apartment belonging to Dr. Sosevic which you mentioned, in

25 which area of town was it?

Page 7379

1 A. It was in Gornje Polje. The street used to be called Samoborska

2 and the name must have been changed now. I don't know the new name.

3 Q. What floor was the apartment on?

4 A. On the third floor, so that when I came, I was at the apartment

5 the whole time. I couldn't go out, because there were a lot of stairs.

6 And then knowing Mr. Mladjenovic, I gave him a call and asked him to try

7 and find me some accommodation on the ground floor.

8 Q. In the meantime, did you get married, and when?

9 A. Yes. I had a girlfriend before my accident, with whom I was not

10 in matrimony. I got married on the 4th of January, 1993, because my wife

11 was pregnant at the time and was due to give birth on the 9th of February,

12 but that child was not born alive. And the doctor said that she must have

13 been under a lot of stress because of all the events, so that stillborn

14 child is another consequence of this god-damned war.

15 Q. Did the executive committee give you appropriate accommodation, an

16 appropriate apartment, and when?

17 A. Since Mr. Radojica attended my wedding, we discussed it even at

18 that time, but it was sometime before May that I was actually given the

19 apartment and I moved in in May. We talked sometime in March and we

20 agreed that he would find me an apartment. And since the buildings in

21 question were not designed to accommodate disabled persons, we had also

22 agreed that he would adapt an apartment specially for me. And that

23 apartment was in the street previously called Ivo Lola Ribar, and its new

24 name is Aleksa Santic Street. It's somewhere in the centre of town.

25 Q. It's on the ground floor, isn't it?

Page 7380

1 A. Yes. You enter the apartment straight from the street.

2 Q. You mentioned some months, March and May. Which year did you

3 mean?

4 A. It was year 1993.

5 Q. Before you moved into that apartment -- in fact, tell me first who

6 was the holder of tenants' rights of their apartment: a Muslim or a Serb?

7 A. It was a Muslim, Pasa Granov, Pasa Granov. Her husband died

8 before the war and she was allocated that apartment. It was an apartment

9 for -- I can't now remember the term, but it was an apartment for people

10 who were needed in town at the time, for highly prized personnel, and

11 that's one of the apartments that the municipality allocated. Two doctors

12 used to live in that apartment, and it was built sometime in the '60s.

13 Q. That is not important, sir. Just tell us, please, do you still

14 reside in that apartment and was it allocated to you for temporary use?

15 A. Yes, for temporary use, and it says so in the decision. And I'm

16 still there, although right now the municipality is setting aside funds to

17 build some apartments for us invalids on grounds owned by the

18 municipality.

19 Q. Did the building start?

20 A. Some illegally built garages that used to be there have already

21 been removed and foundations are now being laid.

22 Q. Please tell me, your brother Dubravko, is he also residing as a

23 refugee in an apartment?

24 A. Yes. Dubravko resides in an apartment owned by Jovan Celasan, a

25 Serb. But I think one of these days, he will move to our house, which had

Page 7381













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Page 7382

1 been repaired. My mother and Dubravko will move back to our old house,

2 which had been repaired because we managed to find the money.

3 Q. Your brother Dubravko is currently where?

4 A. In that Serbian-owned flat of Jovan.

5 Q. And how about your brother Bogdan? Where does he live?

6 A. Also in an apartment owned by a Serb. I can't remember the name

7 of the owner. But it's for certain an apartment owned by a Serb. He also

8 intends to get a permission to build an attic studio. That is being done

9 too. The municipality issues permits for building on top of existing

10 buildings.

11 Q. Did you get these flats as refugees with your families? And tell

12 me, did your brothers move first into Serbian-owned apartments or did you

13 move first into that Muslim-owned one?

14 A. It is mostly Serbian-owned apartments, as is the case with

15 Dubravko. And Radojica Mladjenovic said, "We will first allocate

16 apartments owned by Serbs that we have at our disposal, and then, later

17 on" --

18 JUDGE HUNT: Both of you are disobeying your injunction,

19 Mr. Bakrac. Please wait until the translation is finished, both of you.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you are right. I'll

21 try to take care in the future.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies, too.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I just wanted to ask you, we were talking about Serbian-owned

25 apartments. What happened to those persons? Are these Serbs owners of

Page 7383

1 those apartments or did they have tenant's rights, and why are these

2 apartments abandoned?

3 A. Those Serbs had tenant's rights. They were not owners. They --

4 the apartments were vacated because the people who lived there left this

5 territory before the war.

6 Q. Did these Serbs return to Foca?

7 A. Well, we have privatisation nowadays, and they, as holders of

8 tenant's rights, are entitled to repurchase these apartments. Some of

9 them came back and others didn't. For instance, Jovan did come back.

10 Q. Can you tell me about this apartment of Ismet Sosevic. To whom

11 did your mother and brother return this apartment, the apartment they

12 lived in before they returned to their -- before they returned to their

13 own house?

14 A. They returned it to the institute for displaced persons and

15 refugees.

16 Q. And when did they move back into your family house, your brother

17 and your mother?

18 A. In 1999, I think in the middle of that year.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. You told us that this apartment which you got on

20 the ground floor due to the characteristics of your injuries had to be

21 adapted. Who organised the adaptation?

22 A. I said that I had approached to Radojica Mladjenovic, who was then

23 President of the executive committee, or rather head of the municipal

24 government, and he was the person who made decisions. He promised he

25 would do it and told me not to worry. He said he would do his utmost for

Page 7384

1 me to get an apartment ready to move in, with walls painted and everything

2 in good order.

3 Q. Before you moved into that apartment, did you go to have a look at

4 it, and did you find anyone there?

5 A. Just before the works were supposed to be finalised, I went there,

6 I was carried by my brothers downstairs from that apartment where I lived

7 before. I went to that apartment and I found Atif, whom I knew from

8 before, and another two persons, and a guard who was guarding them.

9 Q. Atif and those other two, are these Muslims who were at the KP

10 Dom?

11 A. I don't know about the other two but Atif was at the KP Dom, and

12 since the guard was there, I suppose the other two were also from the KP

13 Dom.

14 Q. Did you talk to Atif?

15 A. Yes. Once when the guard got out of the house, he asked me if I

16 could give a call to his family - I think he said they were in Pancevo -

17 and just tell them that he was alive. And I said, "Just give me the phone

18 number and no problem." That evening, when I came back home, I did as I

19 was asked. A woman answered. I don't know if it was his sister-in-law.

20 And anyway, I told them that Atif sends his greetings and that he wanted

21 to let them know he was alive.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now move into

23 private session for a brief moment?

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, certainly.

25 [Private session]

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Page 7386













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Page 7387













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Page 7388













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Page 7389

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 JUDGE HUNT: We'll go back into open session now.

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE HUNT: We are now in open session.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Sir, did you get a catering establishment in the town of Foca?

15 From who, when, and how, if you can tell us?

16 A. Already in 1994, the municipality wanted to reactivate all

17 businesses in town, and an open competition was published, inviting people

18 to apply for any vacant catering establishments. So I applied, and

19 priority was given to disabled persons, and I got the premises owned by a

20 Slovene footwear company by the name of Planika. That was in May 1994.

21 Q. You said you got it from the Slovene footwear company. I'm asking

22 you, were they the owners or did you get it directly from them?

23 A. No. I said they were the owners and it was the municipality who

24 issued, who allocated those facilities. I was given priority as an

25 invalid and I had applied for it, so I got the business that was

Page 7390

1 previously used by Planika.

2 Q. Did you lease it out or did you get it for temporary use?

3 A. For temporary use. No final decision has been made to this day.

4 There is no new owner.

5 Q. Are you paying the costs of lease?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. When you got that business, what did you open? When you got the

8 premises, what kind of business did you open?

9 A. When I got those premises, I took out a loan at Privredna Banka,

10 because in 1999 the payment operations with Yugoslavia restarted. And I

11 got a loan from the bank in the amount of 10.000 dinars, and the dinar

12 then was equivalent to the Deutschmark.

13 Q. We don't need these details, sir. Just tell me, what kind of

14 business did you open?

15 A. First I opened a shop selling foodstuffs.

16 Q. Did you make any shelves for that shop?

17 A. I got the shelves from Zale company, but they were askew; they

18 were not straight. And I went to Relja Goljanin to ask if they could be

19 straightened, and then he --

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed a part of the answer

21 about the football referee.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, the interpreters have missed part of the

23 answer, but my question is: What's all this going to? Where do we get to

24 with this? It seems to be nothing to do with the issues we have to

25 determine here, about setting up a shop and things.

Page 7391

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecution had a

2 number of witnesses whom they asked about the manufacturing of shelves for

3 the accused's son's shop in Foca. We just want to determine in what

4 circumstances this was done. That is the relevance of my question. I

5 will be done with this very soon.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. All you have to ask him is where he got them

7 from, did he pay for them. You don't need to know all the background to

8 it.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I'm trying

10 to streamline the witness and make his testimony as brief as possible, but

11 he is not aware of really what details are necessary and what are not.

12 JUDGE HUNT: That is why I suggest to you: You ask the questions

13 that you want him to answer. Don't ask him just to tell us what happened

14 next. Take him through it step by step. We'll get along a lot more

15 quickly.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Sir, you said that from Zale you got some kind of shelves that

18 were askew; they were secondhand. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Who is Zale?

21 A. A man from Foca who is a soccer referee.

22 Q. Tell us now specifically: What did these shelves have to do with

23 the KP Dom, or rather, were they made at the KP Dom, and what was done in

24 respect of these shelves at the KP Dom?

25 A. They were straightened, you see. They were a bit askew and then

Page 7392

1 they were just straightened a bit at the KP Dom.

2 Q. Which month and year was this in?

3 A. 1994 is the year for sure. As for the month, in May, around May,

4 I think.

5 Q. Who did you discuss this repair with at the KP Dom, these shelves?

6 A. With Mr. Relja Goljanin.

7 Q. Did you pay for the work done on these shelves?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

10 With the assistance of the usher, I would like the witness to be

11 shown Defence Exhibit 138.

12 Q. Please take a look at this document and tell me: Are you familiar

13 with this document?

14 A. I am familiar with this document.

15 Q. Can you tell us how come?

16 A. Yes, I can. This is a document issued by the Red Cross, after a

17 great many requests put in by my lawyers. I say "my lawyers," but it's my

18 father's lawyers. However, they did not succeed in obtaining something

19 like this. I complained to a friend of mine, saying that we could not get

20 any documents from the Red Cross.

21 And he promised me that he would look into it and see what he

22 could do. And then one day he brought this document to me, and I sent it

23 to the lawyers.

24 Q. How did you send it?

25 A. By fax from Foca, by fax to Belgrade.

Page 7393

1 Q. Thank you, sir.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like

3 document ID D138 to be admitted into evidence.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection?

5 MS. KUO: No objection.

6 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit D138. Is there an English

7 version? And 138A.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I do apologise. I

9 omitted to mention that there is an English version. Sir, I thank you.

10 Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions of this witness.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Ms. Kuo?

12 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krnojelac.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. Your nickname is Miko; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You mentioned your oldest brother Spomenko. Could you tell us

19 what he was doing during the war? Was he actively in combat?

20 A. You mean throughout the war, the entire war?

21 Q. Let's start with the beginning of the war. When the war started,

22 what did your brother Spomenko do?

23 A. I said that on the 11th, in the evening, we fled to Cerezluk.

24 That is to say that already on the 12th, we went to stand guard by the

25 pool that's used for water. We were there until the 20th of April. And

Page 7394

1 then we went to be mobilised. He was mobilised together with me into the

2 Intervention Platoon led by Dragan Vujicic, and he was there until the

3 accident. That is to say, that we went together to Preljuca, to Repetitor

4 and Zebina Suma, Osanice and Tjentiste. He was transferred together with

5 me to Belgrade, and he was in Belgrade until the month of August. When he

6 returned to Foca, until the end of the year, he was on sick leave, so

7 during that time, he was not actively in the army. After that, he joined

8 his unit and he was active.

9 Q. Did he also lose a leg during the war? Or was it only the ear

10 drums that --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When did he lose his leg?

13 A. He lost his leg at Treskavica. I think it was 1995, towards the

14 very end of the war. He stepped on a mine. It's an anti-personnel mine

15 called pasteta.

16 Q. So in other words, Mr. Krnojelac, from the 12th of April, until

17 the accident in Tjentiste, you and your brother Spomenko were on active

18 duty together; right?

19 A. Please. I said that on the 21st, I was with my father at the KP

20 Dom until, well, around the 15th of May. That is to say that only

21 afterwards did we go to Preljuca. During that period of time, Spomenko

22 and my unit were lined up in front of the high school centre, in front of

23 the command every morning.

24 Q. During which period? Before the 15th of May or after the 15th of

25 May?

Page 7395













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Page 7396

1 A. Before the 15th of May.

2 Q. So in other words, during the time from the 21st of April, until

3 the 15th of May, when you were going every day to the KP Dom, you were

4 still lining up with your military unit, along with your brother; right?

5 Did I understand you correctly?

6 A. He was being lined up, and I reported to my commander in the

7 afternoon. Because there weren't any active operations, there was no need

8 for me to come to the morning lineups because that is actually the

9 agreement I had reached with my commander.

10 Q. I'm afraid I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself so let me go

11 back. You have, slightly younger than Spomenko, another brother named

12 Dubravko, and he worked with the police station in Foca before the war;

13 right?

14 A. Yes. I have a brother Dubravko, who is a bit younger than

15 Spomenko. Not a bit, two years younger. And he worked with the police

16 station in Foca.

17 Q. During the war, his work obligation was also with the police

18 station; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you have a twin brother named Bogdan; is that right?

21 A. Yes, I do have a twin bother named Bogdan.

22 Q. Is he an identical twin or a fraternal twin?

23 A. No, no, no. We have not identical twins. We are different.

24 Q. What did your brother Bogdan do during the war? Was he also

25 mobilised like you and your brother Spomenko?

Page 7397

1 A. My brother Bogdan happened to be in Sarajevo when the war broke

2 out.

3 Q. And so he remained in Sarajevo the whole war?

4 A. No, no. He did not remain in Sarajevo the whole war. When the

5 first opportunity arose for him to be transferred to Foca, he took

6 advantage of that and he got to Foca. He was assigned to Livade to the

7 warehouses there, so he worked in the rear.

8 Q. Also in active combat duty?

9 A. The rear. They were not in active combat. They had to think

10 about food, about providing ammunition, things like that. He was never

11 involved in active combat.

12 Q. But he was part of the military during the time; right?

13 A. Well, all the younger people had to be in the military because

14 they had been mobilised by the command.

15 Q. Before the war, did you and your brothers Spomenko and Dubravko

16 live with your parents?

17 A. Yes, yes. We lived together with our parents in our common house

18 that mother and father built together.

19 Q. And you've told us that you left the house because of the presence

20 of Green Berets. This was on the 11th of April, 1992; right?

21 A. The shooting started on the 8th of April, please. So on the 8th

22 of April, they were already there. Now, whether the Green Berets came or

23 whether it was from Donje Polje, because Donje Polje was practically

24 entirely Muslim. Our house was round the boundary, it bordered on that

25 area. So whether they themselves, the inhabitants of Donje Polje, wore

Page 7398

1 uniforms, I don't know, but they were certainly wearing uniforms. There

2 were civilians there too, of course.

3 Q. So from the 8th of April, already, you and your family understood

4 that this was a dangerous place to be, your house; right?

5 A. Even before that, you could notice that something was going on

6 that -- I don't know how to put this to you. The situation was very

7 strange in town itself. And on the 8th, there was some kind of combat

8 that started, things like that.

9 Q. By the time that you finally left your house on the 11th of April,

10 there were at least three days already when you and your family understood

11 that you should not stay in the house because it was dangerous; right? It

12 was not until three days later after the shooting started when you finally

13 left your house.

14 A. Yes. You see, nobody could have imagined that things would turn

15 out that way. We really had quite a few friends, Muslims and Croats and

16 Serbs, and we simply did not feel --

17 Q. Sir, we don't really need to get into the beginning of the

18 conflict or your reflections on how things were before the war. My

19 question is focused very specifically to the few days just before your

20 family left to go to Cerezluk. Your uncles had lived in Cerezluk for a

21 while; right? In other words, your family was well aware that you had

22 relatives in Cerezluk?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you finally decided to leave as a family to go there, on

25 April 11th, you made two different trips because you had only one car;

Page 7399

1 right? It was a car of one of the people who worked at the cafe and he

2 had to make two trips because it was a small car?

3 A. If you followed what I had been saying, I said that my brother

4 Dubravko went with my Yugo to the police station, so that car was not

5 there. He stayed there with that car because at that time, the police was

6 already actively engaged. They were together for a while. And then on

7 the 11th or the 10th, I don't know when they separated. So there was only

8 that one car in the house, or rather the car of Mr. Nedjeljko Novovic. I

9 have to explain this to you because I don't know how else I can explain it

10 to you, the fact that we stayed in the house for three days because we did

11 not expect that. We really did not think that something like that could

12 happen.

13 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the

14 witness shown a map of Foca, and it's already been entered in evidence as

15 Exhibit P9/1.

16 Q. Sir, could you show us where the Cerezluk neighbourhood is on this

17 map of Foca?

18 MS. KUO: If the usher could move the ELMO closer to the witness

19 then perhaps the witness could show us directly on the ELMO.

20 A. Cerezluk is not in this area.

21 MS. KUO: I think the map needs to be -- yes, if the usher could

22 open the map so that Foca is in the centre, then the witness can orient

23 himself better.

24 A. Cerezluk does not figure under any one of these numbers here.

25 Q. Don't pay any attention to the numbers. Just show us the area

Page 7400

1 where the neighbourhood is.

2 A. Well, roughly around here, around number 11, in that area.

3 MS. KUO: The witness has indicated the area that's slightly to

4 the north, that is above the numbers -- the number 11.

5 Q. And could you show us where --

6 A. No, it's not above number 11. It's next to number 11, please.

7 Q. Then I'll stand corrected on that. It's to the left --

8 A. Although, with this kind of map, I cannot be sure. The scale is

9 pretty big.

10 Q. We don't need a great deal of precision on this, Mr. Krnojelac. I

11 think if I were to say the area just to the left of number 11 -- excuse

12 me, just to the left of number 11, would that be accurate? Slightly to

13 the left and perhaps above?

14 A. And down, further down, to the left and a bit lower. So it's this

15 area here, approximately, approximately, as far as you can see on this

16 map.

17 MS. KUO: All right. Now the witness has shown us an area that on

18 the map is above number 11.

19 Q. I understand when you say "below," you mean closer to the river,

20 but for the purposes of the map, it's the area just slightly above number

21 11.

22 A. Please.

23 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, are you saying that that's not accurate?

24 A. Please, I said that on this map, the scale is such that you cannot

25 show exactly where Cerezluk is, but approximately, if we consider this to

Page 7401

1 be the stadium, number 11, then above the stadium and then further up and

2 then to the left, that's where Cerezluk is.

3 Q. Could you just place the pointer where you say Cerezluk is, and

4 I'll try to give a description so that the transcript can accurately

5 reflect that. Just place your pointer there and leave it there for a few

6 seconds.

7 A. I can put it here. Here, for example, here. But again, I'm

8 telling you, the map is too big.

9 Q. Please --

10 JUDGE HUNT: Don't worry about it, Mr. Krnojelac. You've pointed

11 at it. Now, just let us have that recorded in the transcript. We can see

12 where you're pointing and we realise it's around about there. We just

13 want an approximate position.

14 Now, you go ahead, Ms. Kuo. It's slightly above it and to the

15 left, and it appears to be almost at a intersection of two lines. You may

16 be able to read what's written beside it.

17 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. I think that's a fairly

18 accurate description of that location.

19 Q. Now, can you also point us - and again, approximately - where your

20 house was in Donje Polje? And it would suffice if you just showed us the

21 neighbourhood where your family house was.

22 A. If we consider this to be the bridge on the Cehotina River, the

23 other one, then it's around here.

24 MS. KUO: The witness is pointing on the other side of the

25 Cehotina river from where we have indicated as Cerezluk, and it's just to

Page 7402













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Page 7403

1 the right of the second bridge on the Cehotina, counting from the bottom

2 up. So there's one bridge on the bottom. It's the second bridge. If you

3 go over the bridge to the right, that is the neighbourhood that the

4 witness has indicated.

5 Thank you. We don't need this map any more.

6 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, how long would you say the car ride would be from

7 your family house in Donje Polje to your uncle's house in Cerezluk?

8 A. Well, ten minutes maximum.

9 Q. When your family left in two shifts to go on the 11th of April to

10 your uncle's house, there wasn't anything in particular that prompted your

11 leaving. In other words, there weren't shells falling at that time;

12 right?

13 A. I have already said that there was a large concentration of

14 Muslims at the old school of Ivan Goran Kovavic that was near our house,

15 so we could see that. And of course, everybody would be terrified, and

16 especially when we saw that all the other houses were empty, abandoned.

17 None of our neighbours were there, none of our Serb neighbours, and it is

18 only natural that we started feeling that fear too, that we were supposed

19 to flee. Nobody would be happy to leave his house; that's for sure. So

20 it was at that time, just before dusk, and as luck would have it, it was

21 foggy and even started to snow, so we managed to get out practically

22 unnoticed.

23 Q. And you're saying that when you left your house, nobody brought

24 any change of clothing with them? Is that what you're telling us?

25 A. That is the pure truth. It did not occur to anyone. We thought

Page 7404

1 that it would all be short and that we would return to our house. Nobody

2 could have expected this to turn out this way.

3 Q. Sir, you certainly, certainly expected that you would stay

4 overnight at your uncle's house; right? It was dusk. Are you telling us

5 that you didn't even think that you would spend the night there?

6 A. Well, everybody can spend the night in whatever he's wearing. I

7 mean, at the hotel I also took -- here, I took a shower in the morning. I

8 always take showers in the morning. So I can spend not only one night,

9 but ten nights in one and the same clothes.

10 Q. Your father was a very popular person before the war in Foca;

11 right?

12 A. My father was a teacher of mathematics at the elementary school of

13 Veselin Maslesa.

14 Q. He had a lot of friends; right?

15 A. Well, he did. Of course he did. Acquaintances, friends, pals.

16 Q. When people learned that your family house had burned down, they

17 gave you bed linens and clothes and even a TV set; right?

18 A. Yes, there were such friends too. The Bogdanovics. I know that

19 for sure. Desa and Bela.

20 Q. They weren't the only people who gave your family clothes; right?

21 A. Well, the uncles and the relatives and others gave things, whoever

22 could give whatever, and now as for all the details, exactly who gave

23 what, I couldn't go into that now.

24 Q. But in other words, your father had clothes that were donated to

25 him from friends and relatives so that he could have changes of clothing;

Page 7405

1 right? He didn't just have the clothes on his back through the course of

2 the war; he had access to other clothes, right?

3 A. Of course he did. It wasn't anything opulent, but he wore

4 whatever he could wear.

5 Q. You've told us that you and your father moved to the Hotel

6 Zelengora on the 20th of May; is that right?

7 A. Approximately the 20th. I can't say that it was exactly the 20th

8 of May. Perhaps it was the 21st or the 22nd, but it was around the 20th

9 of May.

10 Q. So from the 11th of April until about the 20th of May, when you

11 all moved to the Hotel Zelengora, you all stayed with your uncles in

12 Cerezluk; right?

13 A. Yes. Dubravko was not there because the police station had other

14 accommodation provided, but he was also at Cerezluk. All the rest of us

15 were at Arso's and the late Sreto's.

16 Q. During this time, you also -- when your parents moved to the Hotel

17 Zelengora, did you move in with them as well?

18 A. Yes. We all moved together with them. We got two rooms, 411 and

19 412, at the Zelengora Hotel.

20 Q. And this was in the new part of the hotel; right?

21 A. Well, we call it the new part because it was built after the old

22 part, although the old part -- I mean, the Olympics were held there, and

23 the old part did not look the way it looks right now. An extra storey was

24 added to the old part. So this is the newest part of the hotel, this

25 extension on the old part. But then this is a four-storeyed area on the

Page 7406

1 other side, and we called that the new part.

2 Q. During the time when your family was living at the Hotel

3 Zelengora, it was also being used as a kind of headquarters for the

4 military to house soldiers and paramilitaries from outside Foca; right?

5 A. No headquarters was at the hotel, and the soldiers came to take

6 their meals at the hotel because that's where there was a kitchen. That

7 was the only kitchen that was working at the hotel. And the rest were

8 refugees, displaced persons, et cetera.

9 Q. So there were soldiers coming and going to the hotel?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Let's talk about the guard duty that you described. You moved

12 with your family to Cerezluk, and you said the next day you and your

13 brother Spomenko went to do guard duty at the reservoir. Under whose

14 orders did you go, or did you volunteer?

15 A. Well, there were no orders. We went there of our own free will,

16 because we couldn't just stand aside while our brothers were up there and

17 we would have been bored down indoors. So we volunteered, because at that

18 time there were no orders or official mobilisation as yet.

19 Q. And you described this as guard duty. Whom were you guarding the

20 reservoir against?

21 A. Well, I'll tell you. Above Cerezluk there is a village -- let me

22 remember the name. I can't remember the name, but it's a purely Muslim

23 village. You understand? And that's what we were guarding it from.

24 Q. So you were guarding the reservoir from Muslims; right?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 7407

1 Q. And at this time, the war in Foca was between Muslims and Serbs,

2 and you joined the Serb side, right, against the Muslims?

3 A. I think it's quite natural.

4 Q. And you and your brother volunteered, so I assume that you agreed

5 with the Serb side. That's why you were willing to give your life for it

6 if necessary; right?

7 A. Well, I can't say that the Serbian side started the war in Foca.

8 Rather, the contrary was true.

9 Q. Sir, I'm not asking about who started the war; I'm just asking

10 about your own feelings about the war. You felt so strongly about the

11 Serb side of the war that you were willing to volunteer to fight, to stand

12 guard duty, and give up your life if necessary; right? That's all I'm

13 asking. That's how strongly you believed in the Serb cause.

14 A. There was no Serb cause. You can't call it that. I have to

15 explain it. You too would join your own people, just as I did. And we

16 were defending ourselves more than we attacked. Every creature has to

17 defend itself. It has that sort of instinct, the instinct to defend

18 oneself. We had to defend ourselves, otherwise we wouldn't be alive

19 today. There would be no Serbs alive in Foca today. There would be no

20 Serbian side.

21 Q. When you and your brother were doing guard duty at the reservoir,

22 did you spend nights there or did you come home?

23 A. We would come home only when we needed to change into something

24 given us by our cousins, and otherwise we spent our time in a house nearby

25 the reservoir, an abandoned house.

Page 7408

1 Q. Was there anybody organising the guard duty, in other words,

2 military, or was it something that was spontaneously organised by you and

3 the other ten or so people?

4 A. The very beginning of the war was spontaneous, with no particular

5 organisation to it, at least not that I'm aware of.

6 Q. I'm asking you only about the guard duty. When you went to the

7 guard duty, were you there as part of a larger military group?

8 A. No, no, no. I said there were about ten of us then.

9 Q. You told us that on the 20th of April, you were told that it was

10 all over. Does that -- the fact that it was all over meant the Serbs had

11 won; right? They had successfully taken over Foca?

12 A. Well, we were told on the 20th that we didn't need to stand guard

13 there any more in that place and that we should report to the secondary

14 school centre. You see? And it was around the 20th, maybe a couple of

15 days before that, that Foca was taken over by the Serbs, or rather

16 liberated. That's the word I would rather use.

17 Q. On the day of liberation, as you call it, were you in Foca at

18 home? Let's say the 18th of April.

19 A. No. I said -- I apologise, there is nothing on my monitor any

20 more, and perhaps I'm answering earlier than I should.

21 Q. It's not necessary for you to follow the transcript because you

22 need to wait for the translation of what I'm saying and that gives

23 sufficient pause.

24 A. So I can start answering? Okay. Good. So I said earlier that we

25 were up there when our commander came to fetch us - I mean the place where

Page 7409













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7410

1 we stood guard - so I was not at home on that day. I was not in my

2 uncle's house.

3 Q. Sir, my question wasn't about the 20th when you were informed, but

4 about the 18th of April. Were you at home, that is in Cerezluk, on the

5 18th of April?

6 A. No. I was in Cerezluk doing guard duty on my guard post.

7 Q. When you were informed to report to the secondary school on the

8 20th of April, did you go immediately or did you go home first?

9 A. All of us who were there, there were ten of us, we all went

10 straight to the secondary school centre together with Vujicic, the

11 commander.

12 Q. How was it that Vujicic was your commander? Who appointed him?

13 A. He was appointed at the secondary school centre by the man who

14 gave assignments, Lakovic, the one I mentioned. I don't know if his name

15 was Dragan, but his nickname was Prle for sure. I don't know who

16 appointed him guards' commander, because I came there only on the 12th.

17 Maybe he was elected by the others. In any case, Lakovic appointed him

18 commander of the Intervention Platoon, and every battalion had an

19 Intervention Platoon, and we were the Intervention Platoon attached to the

20 1st Battalion.

21 Q. You described to us how the ten of you who had stood guard duty at

22 the reservoir got to stay together as part of the Intervention Platoon

23 with the same leader Vujicic and you got ten additional men?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That was 20 or so men became the Intervention Platoon; right?

Page 7411

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You stayed together as a unit up until your injury in June, right,

3 this group of 20 or so?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All the places -- all the places you described to us earlier,

6 where you fought and had the interventions, you all went to together as a

7 group; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It's fair to say that you and the other members of your

10 Intervention Platoon were very close, a very tight unit; right?

11 A. Well, you could say that. There were no quarrels among us.

12 Q. You described how you were -- you then went to Livade and you were

13 issued a uniform, or they tried to issue a uniform, they didn't have your

14 size, and you were also issued an automatic rifle; right?

15 A. I got an automatic rifle, but not everyone did. There were PAP

16 rifles, M-48 rifles, all kinds of --

17 Q. The question was only about you. You were issued some items of

18 clothing from the military, even if it wasn't a full name uniform, right,

19 something to indicate that you were part of the military when you were on

20 active duty?

21 A. Please. I said that we couldn't all be given uniforms because

22 they didn't have all sizes. People who found their size got a uniform.

23 And it wasn't the case only with our platoon. There were many other cases

24 like that. So the army was half dressed in military uniforms, half

25 wearing civilian clothes.

Page 7412

1 Q. Would you say there was a shortage of uniforms?

2 A. Precisely, that's what I'm saying.

3 Q. The -- at one point you described what you were wearing, a green

4 jacket and a black turtleneck. The green jacket was a military kind of

5 jacket, right, whether it's camouflage or something else, but the jacket

6 that you wore would have been clear --

7 A. No, no. Just a moment. There were green plasticky sleeves and

8 the rest was denim, like green denim. I still have that jacket today. I

9 can mail it to you if you want to see it. That's the only thing that

10 remained in one piece.

11 Q. Let me ask you this, then. How would people know that you were a

12 soldier when you were fighting? What did you wear or what would indicate

13 to somebody that you were a soldier?

14 A. Well, they knew if we were on the same side. There was a line and

15 we were lining it. Of course the soldier next to me knew that I was one

16 of them. I couldn't have been an observer in a place like that.

17 Q. Are you saying that if you were alone, then nobody would be able

18 to tell that you were a soldier on active duty? There had to be some

19 indication, if you were alone, that you were a soldier, or are you saying

20 that there was nothing?

21 A. Well, there was only the rifle I was carrying. That's the only

22 thing by which they could know.

23 Q. The automatic rifle that you described was a strictly military

24 rifle and that's how people would know that you were part of the military;

25 right? It's not something --

Page 7413

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. This was a weapon that you were allowed to take with you from

3 Livade and take home and safeguard; right? It wasn't something that you

4 turned in at the end of every day?

5 A. No, of course not. You couldn't possibly know when you would be

6 called up into action to defend the line, because we were in the reserve

7 force. We were a reserve Intervention Platoon, and when notification

8 would arrive or an attack against the front line would start, we would be

9 called up to defend the line, lest there be a breakthrough like it

10 happened in Josanica in 1992.

11 Q. At this time, there were also military police in Foca; right?

12 A. Yes. It was attached to the military command. They could answer

13 to the command only, no one else. Only the command of the army had

14 control over them, no one else.

15 Q. Part of the duty of the military police in Foca at this time was

16 to search Muslim apartments and detain Muslim men; right?

17 A. I wouldn't agree with that. From what I know from other people,

18 that was done by the Serbian Guard and by individual citizens, not by the

19 military police. The military police was more involved with the army,

20 with those who dodged the mobilisation, and that's when they would go into

21 action. They would go to their address, call up the person. If the

22 person was still reluctant to respond, they would take him to prison, and

23 so on and so forth.

24 Q. Are you saying that the military police did not bring Muslims to

25 the KP Dom for detention? Is that your understanding?

Page 7414

1 A. At least while I was down there, and from what I could see, those

2 were people in camouflage uniforms, people from the Serbian Guards, who

3 did that. They brought them in and the others -- they brought them in,

4 they had patches on their sleeves, and they were later -- the people who

5 were detained were later taken over by other people and taken inside the

6 compound.

7 Q. The Serbian Guards that you described were not from Foca; right?

8 They were from elsewhere?

9 A. I'm sorry, it's not the Serbian Guard. It's the Serbian

10 Guardists. They came from Serbia.

11 Q. And you told us earlier that they had to work with locals from

12 Foca when they were looking for certain people, right, because they didn't

13 know the neighbourhoods.

14 A. Probably.

15 Q. You and your brother Spomenko lived in Foca your whole lives;

16 right?

17 A. Since we were born.

18 Q. So you know the neighbourhoods in Foca and the people in Foca

19 pretty well; right?

20 A. Well, around our house, yes, and in certain areas of town, like

21 Cerezluk, some other places, where our relatives lived.

22 Q. You know Zarko Vukovic, right, a friend of your father's?

23 A. I do, both as a friend and as a teacher of mathematics in the

24 Veselin Maslesa primary school who worked together with my father.

25 Q. You knew where Mr. Vukovic lived; right?

Page 7415

1 A. Yes, we know each other.

2 Q. And you visited him in his apartment before the war; right?

3 A. I didn't visit him but my parents did.

4 Q. You -- did you know the director of the Jugobanka?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What neighbourhood did Mr. Vukovic live in?

7 A. That's the -- that's what's called the centre of town.

8 Q. This is an area that you are familiar with, right, you and your

9 brother Spomenko?

10 A. Yes, we are. Why?

11 Q. Isn't it true that one evening, you and your brother Spomenko and

12 other armed men went to the building where Zarko Vukovic lived, looking

13 for the Muslim director of the Jugobanka?

14 A. I don't see why we would be looking for him. That's not true.

15 That's certainly not true.

16 Q. You know Brane Cosovic; right?

17 A. Yes. Not particularly well but I did know him. He is much older

18 than I am.

19 Q. Was he a member of the military police or the Serbian Guardists?

20 A. I couldn't tell you that. I don't know. Maybe yes, maybe not. I

21 don't know.

22 Q. When you returned from your guard duty - and you said that it was

23 on the 20th of April - you testified that that's when you learned that

24 your father had been assigned to the KP Dom as warden. That was the first

25 time you learned of it?

Page 7416













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7417

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You testified - and please correct me if I'm wrong - you testified

3 that your father had returned on the 20th of April for the first time

4 since he had been given that assignment. Is that what you said? I just

5 want to be clear about that.

6 A. I didn't say for the first time. I said that's when I saw him, on

7 the 20th of April, that we talked, and he told me that he had received

8 work duty from the executive committee, and it was at the KP Dom. And I

9 asked him what was his duty there, "What's your job?" And he said, "I was

10 tasked with preserving the property, repairing the damage, and, if

11 possible, restarting the economy." And I asked him, "Is there anything

12 else?" and he said no. And he said there were White Eagles down there

13 from Uzice and that they took care of the detained Muslims.

14 Q. When you asked your father what his work duty was, didn't he tell

15 you that he was appointed temporary warden of KP Dom?

16 A. Yes, precisely, the temporary warden of the KP Dom.

17 Q. Did he indicate -- what was his attitude toward this work

18 assignment? Did he indicate that he didn't want to have that?

19 A. I cannot remember all the details of that conversation.

20 Possibly. I can't remember.

21 Q. So he never told you that he was unhappy about receiving that

22 assignment; right?

23 A. You see one thing: That work duty was the same as mobilisation.

24 He couldn't have possibly refused that position, and whether he was happy

25 or unhappy made no difference at all. You were simply appointed somewhere

Page 7418

1 and you had to do it. That's the only -- that was the only option if you

2 wanted to remain a free man and didn't want to go to prison. Anyone who

3 failed to do their military obligation, their obligation under military

4 law, was detained.

5 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, that's understood. My question was: In your

6 conversation with your father, the first conversation you ever had about

7 his appointment as a temporary warden, did he ever indicate to you, as a

8 father to a son, that he was unhappy about receiving this assignment? He

9 didn't, did he?

10 A. Absolutely not. That was the very beginning. He couldn't know

11 what was going to happen later. He was always a hard-working man and he

12 loved to work, and those duties that were entrusted to him, to repair the

13 damage and all the rest that I mentioned, was something that he had to

14 accept.

15 Q. Your father never told you that he felt like he himself was a

16 prisoner at KP Dom, did he? He never said that.

17 A. There was talk about that, and I myself had that impression. And

18 one day at his office I could see what kind of people came in and what

19 sort of things he had to take care of.

20 Q. I'm just asking about the first conversation you had with your

21 father. That first conversation, he didn't say to you, "Son, I feel like

22 I've been taken prisoner," did he?

23 A. I'm telling you, I don't remember all the details of the

24 conversation. I can say yes and I can say no, but I really don't remember

25 those conversations. I wouldn't be telling you the real truth if I said

Page 7419

1 either yes or no. Please believe me, a lot of time has passed since then

2 for me to remember such details.

3 Q. I'm not asking you about a specific detail, but rather about your

4 impression. You didn't get the impression from your father during that

5 first conversation on the 20th of April that he himself felt like he was

6 being taken prisoner; right? It was a work obligation like any other,

7 like anybody else had; right?

8 A. Yes, it's true. There was a compulsory work order, the work

9 duty. But knowing my father, I knew that it was hard for him to look at

10 those people being brought in, and of course it was very hard for him to

11 observe all of that and not being able to do anything about it, not being

12 able to help.

13 Q. I'd like to ask you what you mean by "hard for him to observe all

14 of that." What is the "all of that" that you're referring to?

15 A. The process of bringing people into the KP Dom itself. You're

16 depriving a person of their liberty, depriving them of everything, and you

17 have no say in it and you don't take part in it and you can't help it.

18 One group of people brings them in, another group of people takes them

19 over, and you are standing by unable to do anything.

20 Q. Did your father ever tell you this, that that's how he felt?

21 A. Yes, he did. In the time that I spent with him he did say that

22 occasionally; in fact, a couple of times during my stay there.

23 Q. So in other words, he knew that people were being deprived of

24 their liberty for no legal reason; right?

25 A. Every normal person knew that.

Page 7420

1 MS. KUO: Your Honours, it's 1.00.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Not quite, but it will do. We'll resume at 2.30.

3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.























Page 7421

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo?

3 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. I think the witness's

4 microphone needs to be turned on.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Please.

6 MS. KUO: Thank you.

7 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I'd like to ask you about an answer that you gave

8 before the break. Defence counsel asked you about the 20th of April, when

9 you saw your father in Cerezluk, and the conversation that you had with

10 him at that time, and you said, "I think he had been absent for two days.

11 That's what they told me." Could you clarify what you meant by that?

12 A. I can. As far as I know, he left on the 18th. He went down

13 there, spent the night there, his first night at the KP Dom, and I hadn't

14 seen him in those two days.

15 Q. So you're saying that your father did spend the night in KP Dom on

16 the 18th of April?

17 A. That's what I think. That's what I've been told, but I'm not

18 sure.

19 Q. Who told you that?

20 A. My relatives.

21 Q. Do you know where your father stayed when he was in the KP Dom?

22 In the -- at night, like that night?

23 A. In that first office where his office used to be earlier -- I mean

24 afterwards.

25 Q. You mean the office on the first floor, on the ground floor?

Page 7422

1 Before he moved to the --

2 A. Yes, the ground floor, the first office on the left-hand side. In

3 fact, I explained this. When you enter the corridor, to enter the

4 corridor you have to turn right. And then in that corridor it's the first

5 office on the left-hand side.

6 Q. Thank you. Just before the break, you had said that your father

7 found it hard seeing what was happening at KP Dom and not being able to

8 help, and you described how part of --

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for

11 interrupting my learned colleague, but we have just noticed an inaccuracy

12 in the transcript page 72 line 4. It says that -- "at night, like that

13 night," whereas my learned friend had only asked where he spent that

14 night. From what is written here, one can conclude that he spent several

15 nights there, whereas the question referred to -- and I think my learned

16 friend will agree on this.

17 JUDGE HUNT: It's not a question of translation. The transcript

18 is in English and the question was in English, and what happened was Ms.

19 Kuo reformulated her question as she was asking it. I can only understand

20 the question as meaning that night. No suggestion there that she was

21 asking him that he had stayed there more than one night. So you needn't

22 be concerned. That's the only way it can really be read.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It's only because

24 we got the translation "that night" and that's where my concern comes

25 from.

Page 7423













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7424

1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you've got to realise that when they are

2 interpreting, they take what they see to be the gist of the question, and

3 they have done it quite correctly because that's what Ms. Kuo was saying,

4 "that night," but she had, in the course of putting the question,

5 reformulated it. It's a very constant problem for lawyers trying to get a

6 question put precisely, but everybody understands it in the way in which

7 it was translated to you, that it was only that night, and the answer I

8 think reflects that.

9 You proceed, Ms. Kuo.

10 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, going back to what we were discussing just before

12 the break, you said that your father found it hard not to be able to help,

13 and you said one of the things that was hard was watching people being

14 deprived of their liberty without any legal basis. Isn't it true that it

15 was also that your father saw the kind of conditions that these detainees

16 were being kept in once they were at the KP Dom, and that was hard too to

17 watch?

18 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, I think that, if I may say so, you'd have to

19 ask him whether that was his understanding of what his father was saying.

20 At the moment, you're asking him to pry into his father's mind, which

21 would make it very difficult for him.

22 MS. KUO: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Bearing in mind that it's a fairly difficult question

24 to answer any way, I think you better ask him is that what he understood

25 his father to be saying.

Page 7425

1 MS. KUO: Thank you.

2 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you've heard what the Judge said and you've also

3 heard my question. What did you -- in your conversations with your

4 father, did you understand that he also knew what kind of conditions the

5 detainees, the Muslim detainees, were kept in, and he found it hard not to

6 be able to help in that regard?

7 A. We absolutely never talked about the conditions in which they were

8 detained. I said it was hard for him to see people being brought in,

9 deprived of liberty and taken over there, to that other part. I really

10 don't know what the conditions were there. That's one thing.

11 And another thing: I know my father well. I know what kind of a

12 man he is. And it is certain that any person, providing it was a normal

13 person, would find it hard to take, to watch, if that person had a modicum

14 of humaneness in them.

15 Q. Your father never told you about any attempts he was making to get

16 out of his work obligation, did he?

17 A. I said that he couldn't have. It was an order he received, just

18 as I received orders to be part of a military unit. His duty was to work

19 there, and even if he had wanted to get out of that work duty, he couldn't

20 have done that. He would have ended up in prison just as other Serbs who

21 refused to take up their positions.

22 Q. So, Mr. Krnojelac, are you telling us that your father never made

23 any requests to be removed from his work obligation?

24 A. You must believe me if I say that I don't know. I really don't

25 know. He may have, but the first 20 days that I spent with him, I don't

Page 7426

1 know of any such thing.

2 Q. After the time that you were injured and you were no longer going

3 to the front line, was there ever any discussion within your family about

4 your father trying to get out of his job? And I understand what you've

5 told us about that he couldn't, but was there ever any discussion within

6 the family about his trying or asking to be taken off that work

7 obligation?

8 A. You see, we talked about those things very little, so I can't

9 remember. And it is my belief that he did try to get out of that.

10 Knowing him and knowing what kind of person he is, I believe that he did

11 his utmost to --

12 Q. We're not asking you to guess. My question was very specific

13 about any discussion, and you've told us you don't remember, and that's

14 enough.

15 You've told us that you went with your father to the KP Dom

16 immediately, the next day, actually, the 21st of April, after you found

17 out that the White Eagles were there. You were there to protect your

18 father; right? That's why you volunteered to accompany him.

19 A. Yes, because everybody knew how dangerous those people were, both

20 White Eagles and the Serbian Guard. They had no respect for any side, the

21 Muslim side or the Serb side. They did whatever they pleased. And I felt

22 it was my duty to be there beside my father.

23 Q. You said that everybody knew, so I take it that your father also

24 knew. It was not a surprise to him when you volunteered to go and protect

25 him from the White Eagles; right?

Page 7427

1 A. I said that after talking to my father, I went to see my

2 commander, the commander of the Intervention Platoon I was in, to try and

3 reach an agreement with him, and he gave me his approval, and my father

4 knew that I would be with him on that 21st of April.

5 Q. The White Eagles were a paramilitary group; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were they from Uzice?

8 A. That particular group was from Uzice. Their commander's name was

9 Bozidar. I remember that because he was my namesake. There were others:

10 Crni, Bale. They all had nicknames. I can't remember them all.

11 Q. At this time they were there functioning as a military unit;

12 right? You've told us that they were in charge of the Muslim detainees.

13 A. I really don't know who brought them down there and who appointed

14 them, but when I arrived at the KP Dom, they were already there. Whether

15 they were paramilitary or military, I really don't know. At any rate,

16 until around the 10th of May, they were down there at the prison, until

17 the old guards began to arrive, the guards who used to work at the KP Dom

18 before, and they were accompanied by other soldiers.

19 Q. While the White Eagles were at the KP Dom, they appeared to be

20 working in an official capacity; right? They weren't just people that

21 came in, did whatever they wanted, and left. They were stationed there

22 and they had a specific duty; right? That's what you've told us.

23 A. I really don't know what their duties were, but they would

24 absolutely never allow anyone to interfere with what they were doing,

25 least of all us. In a jiffy they would turn against you, round up on you,

Page 7428

1 shout at you, and we were afraid of them, just as many other Serbian

2 people were.

3 Q. So you're saying you don't know what they were doing at the KP

4 Dom?

5 A. I said they were guarding that part of the KP Dom where the

6 Muslims were detained. I know that. The Serbian Guard would bring people

7 in and then the others --

8 Q. So their job at the KP Dom was to guard the Muslim detainees.

9 They had a specific job to do there. That's what you've told us. I'm

10 just trying to get that straight.

11 A. I can't tell you who appointed them, because I don't know that.

12 If I --

13 Q. I'm not asking you who appointed them, just what they were doing

14 there. You told us you don't know exactly what they were doing, but you

15 know that they were in charge of the Muslim detainees. And I just wanted

16 to be clear about that. Yes?

17 A. Right. It's true that I don't know about all they did, but it's

18 true that they were guarding Muslim detainees.

19 Q. You said earlier that one of their reputations was that they were

20 in town to get booty, and by that you meant things, right, like clothing

21 or furniture, anything they could get their hands on? They had the

22 reputation for taking things that didn't belong to them; right?

23 A. Well, that was common knowledge from the time of the war in

24 Croatia, and that's true.

25 Q. You also said that they had no respect for either side. They were

Page 7429

1 also known for being ruthless and for committing atrocities, right,

2 against civilians?

3 A. I don't know whether they committed atrocities, but they were

4 cruel to both sides.

5 Q. And in fact, they were so cruel and had such a strong reputation

6 for that, that you felt it necessary to ask special permission to protect

7 your father; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And these were the same people that your father told you were in

10 charge of the Muslim detainees at the KP Dom; right?

11 A. I think they were, because they were from Uzice and they were

12 there when I came.

13 Q. You told us that you had to get permission from your unit

14 commander to go to the KP Dom. If you had not gotten permission, your

15 regular assignment was to line up in front of the high school every day as

16 your brother was; right? That's where you would have been?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And instead of that military assignment, your commander allowed

19 you to spend your time at the KP Dom with your father; right?

20 A. Yes, but always if they went somewhere on an assignment, I would

21 have to join them. I wouldn't be with my father at those times.

22 Q. But you were never called off the KP Dom duty during that time;

23 right? The 20 days you were with your father, you were with him every

24 day?

25 A. I was there from 7.00 to 3.00, and after that time I could be with

Page 7430













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Page 7431

1 my unit. After 3.00, I could choose whether to be with my unit or to be

2 at the hotel with my parents.

3 Q. Between 7.00 and 3.00, when you were at the KP Dom, you were still

4 on military duty; right?

5 A. From the 20th of April, I was on military duty. As soon as I was

6 issued with equipment, I became a soldier.

7 Q. When you were at the KP Dom guarding your father, you also had

8 your military issued rifle with you, right, to protect him?

9 A. Well, you see, that was quite natural because one could never know

10 or even guess when I could be called up to go on an assignment.

11 Q. Were the White Eagles also armed at the KP Dom?

12 A. Those who were admitting people, they were not. I don't know

13 about others.

14 Q. During the time that you were protecting your father at KP Dom,

15 you never had any problems with the White Eagles, did you?

16 A. Only when they were bringing people in, they really behaved like

17 anarchists, and even their working meetings were pretty wild, chaotic.

18 That was the only thing.

19 Q. What do you mean that when they were bringing in, they behaved

20 like anarchists? What did they do to the people they were bringing in?

21 A. It simply means that they interrupted conversations. I didn't say

22 they did anything to them. They just wouldn't let anyone talk to those

23 people normally or as long as they wanted to talk. They would interrupt

24 conversations summarily and say, "Come on, get this over with and get

25 out."

Page 7432

1 Q. They never actually threatened you or your father at the KP Dom,

2 did they?

3 A. No, they never threatened us, but even if they had, my rifle could

4 shoot as well as theirs, and they were probably afraid of that.

5 Q. At the KP Dom, your father was the only person who had someone

6 like you guarding him; right?

7 A. That's the way it turned out, thanks to my commander who allowed

8 me to be at my father's side, but I was not just protecting my father but

9 also all those people who worked with my father. I couldn't protect my

10 father without protecting all of them, just as I would protect my father.

11 Q. What day did the White Eagles leave the KP Dom?

12 A. I don't remember exactly. I think we went to Preljuca on the

13 15th, and they left a couple of days before that, because the old guards

14 who used to work at the prison started coming back.

15 Q. You left for Preljuca a few days after the White Eagles had left

16 the KP Dom; right? You didn't leave your father's side immediately after

17 the White Eagles left, did you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So even after the White Eagles left, did you feel like your father

20 still needed your protection?

21 A. You see, I stayed on as long as I wasn't needed by my unit. As

22 soon as my unit summoned me, I left. If they hadn't summoned me until

23 June, I would have stayed even longer with my father and maybe I would

24 never have had that accident.

25 Q. So it wasn't really because of the White Eagles that you were

Page 7433

1 there? You were just there to protect your father from whomever might

2 cause him any harm; right?

3 A. I'm saying that I was there exclusively because of the White

4 Eagles, but since my unit didn't have to participate in any actions or

5 defend any lines, I had nothing particular to do in my unit, and I was

6 free to stay with my father.

7 Q. That's precisely my question. After the White Eagles left, you

8 stayed on to protect your father from other people, not the White Eagles;

9 right?

10 A. Already at that time, and maybe even earlier, the army had taken

11 over that part of the KP Dom where the Muslims were, and everybody knows

12 what my father did there and what his duties were. I said that before and

13 I can repeat it. So I don't believe that his friends would have done him

14 any harm, his people who knew him.

15 Q. Then against whom were you protecting your father after the White

16 Eagles left?

17 A. I said I wasn't protecting him from anyone. I was just formally

18 staying there pending a call-up from my unit. I didn't need the rifle

19 then. I didn't carry it at that time.

20 Q. You talked about the arrival of the former guards who had worked

21 at the KP Dom. Was that before or after you said the military took over

22 the part of the KP Dom where the Muslims were?

23 A. What do you mean, "before or after"?

24 Q. You've told us that at one point, the army had taken over that

25 part of the KP Dom where the Muslims were. When was that in relation to

Page 7434

1 the arrival of the former KP Dom guards?

2 A. I said approximately on the 10th, one group left as the other

3 group was coming in. They sort of handed and took over.

4 Q. While you were at the KP Dom, you were at your father's side from

5 7.00 in the morning until 3.00 in the afternoon, whatever he was doing

6 inside the KP Dom; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you know that on May 8th, the military command sent a

9 request -- there was a request to your father, in his capacity as the

10 temporary warden, asking him permission to use part of the KP Dom for

11 military purposes. You're aware of that; right?

12 A. You must believe me, I never got involved in his business and I

13 wasn't there for that. I was there in case the White Eagles tried

14 anything, and I was there to protect him and the others who worked with

15 him. That was the only thing I thought about. And I never interfered

16 with his duties and I had no insight into what he received from whom.

17 Q. You are aware that during this time your father had contact with

18 military leaders; right?

19 A. I don't think he ever had contact with military leaders. He had

20 contact exclusively with the executive committee, or rather, with Radojica

21 Mladjenovic.

22 Q. You, in your protection of your father, you had as much access as

23 he did to the KP Dom; right? In other words, wherever he went, you went

24 also.

25 A. Except for the furniture factory. I was at the metalwork shop, I

Page 7435

1 was at the restaurant, I was at the farm in Velecevo.

2 Q. You told us that you never went inside the KP Dom compound itself,

3 but certainly as Muslim detainees were being brought in, they had to pass

4 through the administrative building, and you could see that; right?

5 A. They did not pass through the administrative building. The

6 administrative building is entered from this main hall. How should I call

7 it? I explained that. On the left-hand side is the reception room for

8 the duty officer; on the right-hand side is the hall that leads to the

9 administration building. So it is in that hall. That hall went straight

10 into the compound.

11 Q. Let me rephrase my question. I understand that the administrative

12 building has two different wings and that between them is this entranceway

13 into the compound of the KP Dom from the outside. The Muslim detainees

14 had to pass through that entranceway; right?

15 A. The entire building is not the administration building, you know.

16 I think that we are confusing things a bit. The hall divides the

17 administration building from the building where the guards were and their

18 commanders. So the hall is the one that separates the two, and through

19 the hall one enters the compound of the KP Dom.

20 Q. Including the Muslim detainees who are brought in; right?

21 A. The detainees and those who are escorting them, yes.

22 Q. You talked about how you never ate in the canteen. Are you saying

23 that your father never ate in the canteen either from the 21st of April

24 until the 15th of May?

25 A. I claim that for sure, because we got food on the fourth room to

Page 7436

1 the left, the third or fourth on the left. Please don't take my word for

2 that exactly, but it must have been the third or the fourth room on the

3 left, much bigger than the previous ones, and there were chairs and

4 benches there where former prisoners received their visitors, and that's

5 where they brought breakfast to us.

6 Q. Where did you eat lunch? In the same room?

7 A. Lunch was at the Zelengora Hotel after 3.00. That's where the

8 public kitchen was for all refugees and displaced persons.

9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you testified earlier that there was a time in late

10 April when Mr. [redacted] was detained at the KP Dom, was brought to

11 see your father in your father's office on the ground floor. I just need

12 for you to confirm that that's what you've said.

13 A. I said the end of April that [redacted] was brought, Mr. [redacted]

14 [redacted]. I can't remember. I said that Mr. [redacted] was brought too,

15 but I didn't say the date because I can't remember the exact date.

16 Q. When [redacted] was brought to see your father, [redacted] told

17 your father that the Muslim detainees needed medical attention; isn't that

18 right?

19 A. Believe me that I do not remember the conversation very much

20 because I did not pay that much attention to the conversation. I was

21 there but in fact I was absent. I just know that the visit was so short

22 that I can't remember whether the man actually had enough time to have

23 coffee with my father. These guys came and said, "Come on. That's over.

24 You're going back." When I say "these guys," I'm referring to the people

25 from Uzice.

Page 7437













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Page 7438

1 Q. What do you mean when you say, "I was there but in fact I was

2 absent"?

3 A. When you don't pay attention to a conversation, that means that

4 you are not really present there. It's an absence of mind. For example,

5 you can be putting questions to me now and I can be thinking about

6 something completely different. I can hear you, but I don't know what

7 I've heard, you see?

8 Q. I hope you don't do that, sir. We'd like for you to concentrate

9 on the question and answer it.

10 A. No, I don't do that. I'm really listening to you quite

11 attentively, with full attention.

12 Q. Good. You talked about late April when [redacted] was brought to

13 see your father. You were present and paying attention then; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And when the [redacted] was given permission to go visit his uncle

16 and accompanied by this man from Uzice, you also went with them; right?

17 A. Yes. I went. I was the driver -- or rather this Bozidar from

18 Uzice did not allow only Mr. [redacted] and me to go on our own, which is what

19 my father thought. This guy said, "No, no. My man has to come with them

20 because my man has to watch [redacted]."

21 Q. But your father thought that it was fine for you to go with him?

22 As long as you went with [redacted], your father thought it was okay? At

23 least that's what it indicated?

24 A. Well, that's with the best of intentions so that the man could

25 feel better. The times were really hard, really hard.

Page 7439

1 Q. When the commander Bozidar from the Uzice Corps said that his man

2 needed to accompany Mr. [redacted], you didn't stay back and just let him

3 go by himself; right? You still went with him.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That was because your father asked you to go with him; right?

6 A. Well, not only because he asked me. I would have gone on my own

7 even if he had not asked me to.

8 Q. You were with your father quite often during this time, not just

9 when you were at the KP Dom; right?

10 A. Well, I don't know what you mean by "quite often." I was at the

11 hotel, too, although my father and my mother had their room and we had our

12 room, so we were not together all the time.

13 Q. Did you ever accompany your father to the hospital?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You're sure about that? You never went with your father?

16 A. 100 per cent.

17 Q. So you never met --

18 A. Let's decide what we are talking about. Is it only in this

19 period, or all the time?

20 Q. I meant in this period, and I wanted to ask about a very specific

21 incident regarding a man who worked at the pharmacy in the hospital, by

22 the name of Milomir Mihajlovic. Did you ever meet that man in the

23 presence of your father at the hospital?

24 A. I don't remember having done that. Maybe but I don't remember. I

25 really don't.

Page 7440

1 Q. But you're sure 100 per cent that during the time before you were

2 injured, you never went with your father to the hospital in Foca?

3 A. I really don't remember having been there, no, no, I really can't

4 remember.

5 Q. You testified earlier that your brother had a Yugo car, the

6 brother who worked at the police station. Could you tell us what colour

7 that Yugo was?

8 A. I'm sorry, I did not testify that my brother had a Yugo. I was

9 the one who bought a Yugo before the war. It was my Yugo. That Yugo is

10 my Yugo until this very day, and the colour is red.

11 Q. When you and your brother Spomenko went to the guard duty at the

12 reservoir, your father didn't object to your volunteering, did he?

13 A. We are of age. Even if he had objected, he wouldn't have -- he

14 could not have done anything about it.

15 Q. But he didn't say anything to show that he didn't like the fact

16 that you and your brother were volunteering to go there; right?

17 A. I said a minute ago that -- how should I put this? This was a

18 human solidarity, solidarity with one's brothers, that they were not on

19 their own up there, that we were with them. It's quite different when you

20 have someone who you know well and who you trust by your side or you have

21 someone who you do not know.

22 Q. I take it by your answer that, no, your father did not object to

23 you and your brother volunteering?

24 A. I don't see why he would object to that. We were not on the very

25 front line itself so that we could have gotten killed or something in

Page 7441

1 those days.

2 Q. In fact, your father was and is still quite proud of you and your

3 brothers and your war efforts; right?

4 A. Well, we can't put it that way. If anybody can be proud of two

5 disabled men, you are very wrong. No one, absolutely no one, least of all

6 my father, wanted something like this to happen, and all of us in our

7 family.

8 Q. I understand that, but what I'm talking about is the time before

9 you were disabled and before your brother was disabled as well. What you

10 did for the war effort on behalf of the Serbian army is a cause of pride

11 for your father; right?

12 A. Absolutely no one can say that. I have already said this. As

13 soon as we were mobilised -- and we did not go to mobilisation

14 voluntarily, and there is a big difference involved. That is to say, we

15 had to go for mobilisation. So it's when you have to do something, when

16 you have to be in the army.

17 Q. You and your brothers did not face any discrimination or

18 punishment as a result of the fact that your mother is a Croat, right,

19 during this time?

20 A. I don't see why that should happen. My mother is an honourable

21 woman. Everybody knows that.

22 Q. And your father never voiced any concern that the fact that your

23 mother was a Croat would affect his life negatively during this time, did

24 he?

25 A. She could not have negatively affected his life, and everybody

Page 7442

1 liked my mother. At work, everybody liked her, appreciated her, so

2 really --

3 Q. I'm not talking about your mother as a person. We understand

4 that. But just the fact that she is a Croat during this time, that fact

5 alone did not put your father in a dangerous situation, did it?

6 A. Oh, please. My mother is a Croat, but my mother and my father

7 have been married for 40 years now. That very fact of this fine harmony

8 and this fine relationship the two of them have speak of the fact that my

9 father is also a very good man and that he never looked at people that

10 way, whether they were Croats or Serbs or Muslims or whatever, and that

11 that did not affect his decisions.

12 Q. That's understood. My question is quite different. I understand

13 what you're saying about your parents and that they're good people, but

14 the question is whether your father was put in a dangerous situation

15 during this wartime because of your mother being a Croat. There was no

16 difference; right? The fact that your mother was a Croat made no

17 difference in the treatment that you, your brothers, or your father

18 received in Foca; right?

19 A. No. No.

20 Q. You testified earlier that on May 15 you were called back to your

21 unit to fight, and I believe that just before -- what you testified

22 earlier to was that just before this, you were able to stay at the KP Dom

23 with your father because it was relatively peaceful. So beginning on the

24 15th of May through the month of June, and even after you were injured,

25 there was intense fighting, right, in and around Foca? I don't mean in

Page 7443

1 Foca city itself, but in the area around Foca.

2 A. I don't know about after the accident, but until the accident I

3 know, yes, precisely at all those places that I mentioned.

4 Q. Do you know a Branko Banovic, nicknamed Bota?

5 A. I know him superficially.

6 Q. He was in the Dragan Nikolic Unit during the war, right, in June

7 1992?

8 A. I do not remember that unit having existed before my accident. It

9 was established, as far as I know, on the basis of what my friends told

10 me, only afterwards.

11 Q. Are you aware that Bota was wounded on the 20th of June, 1992?

12 A. Yes. We were in Belgrade, in the hospital, so I know he was

13 wounded on the 20th.

14 Q. He was wounded in an ambush by Muslims; right?

15 A. That's what he told me.

16 Q. You, in fact, have received a letter or a certificate regarding

17 Bota and how he received this injury, right, in preparation for this

18 trial?

19 A. No way. I didn't receive any letter.

20 Q. Did you help the Defence investigator who was helping your

21 father's defence, Mr. Dundjer?

22 A. I helped as much as I could, because I was involved in the

23 preparations, like this document from the Red Cross that I managed to

24 obtain through my friend.

25 Q. In the course of your getting these kinds of documents, you also

Page 7444













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Page 7445

1 got a document that's a certificate that Bota was injured on the 20th of

2 June, 1992; right? You got that from Bota's apartment. Do you know what

3 I'm talking about?

4 A. No, we did not get that from Bota's apartment. Dundjer -- I mean,

5 I sent him to the present-day command, and that's where he got that paper.

6 MS. KUO: I'd like to have the usher show the witness

7 Exhibit - I'm sorry - ID D141.

8 Q. Sir, have you ever seen that document that's being placed before

9 you?

10 A. No.

11 MS. KUO: Thank you. We don't need the document any more.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Can we be let into the secret of what that document

13 is? Is it in evidence?

14 MS. KUO: It's not in evidence, but it was --

15 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, no. No, no. If it's not in evidence --

16 MS. KUO: It was shown to Mr. Dundjer during his examination, and

17 he said certain things about the involvement of this witness --

18 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, I see.

19 MS. KUO: -- so I wanted to clarify that.

20 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. Thank you.

21 MS. KUO: Thank you.

22 Q. You said that you saw Bota in the hospital.

23 A. I said how I was involved. I was an intermediary there.

24 Q. Thank you. You said that you saw Bota in the hospital in

25 Belgrade. What date did he tell you he was injured?

Page 7446

1 A. Believe me, I can't remember.

2 Q. But it was a few days before you were brought there on the 23rd of

3 June; right?

4 A. I just read the date now.

5 Q. I wouldn't wish you to rely on a document that you don't know

6 anything previously about, but do you --

7 A. It's not my fault that you gave me this to read.

8 Q. Did you know at the time -- okay. Let me ask it this way. When

9 you went to Belgrade on the 23rd of June, was Bota already there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. When was he brought into the hospital?

12 A. The date. I don't know the exact date. I don't know the exact

13 date. He must have been at the VMA, and then he was transferred to

14 Sokobanjska for rehabilitation. That is above the Red Star stadium.

15 That's what the street is called where the rehabilitation place is,

16 Sokobanjska. And when this exactly happened, I really don't know.

17 Q. You saw Bota at the VMA; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What kind of injuries did he receive?

20 A. I don't know. He was immobile. He was wounded in the back, in

21 the spine, I think, and his lower limbs were paralysed.

22 Q. So this was a fairly severe injury; right?

23 A. Yes, certainly. As soon as a man is immobile, it means that it's

24 a serious injury.

25 Q. He received this injury as a result of his fighting against the

Page 7447

1 Muslims; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, let me ask you about your injury. This was on the 22nd of

4 June, 1992, in the area of Tjentiste; right?

5 A. It was at Kosur, as I said already. It's a hill by the village of

6 Todjevac. So it's Kosur, and then you look at Todjevac, and that is where

7 the Muslim forces were concentrated. They had placed booby traps there

8 and we came across these mines while in this vehicle.

9 Q. Just about the location: It's not far from Tjentiste. I know

10 you've given us a very precise location, but in general, if somebody were

11 referring to it, would that be wrong to say it was in the area of

12 Tjentiste?

13 A. Well, it's certainly in the area of Tjentiste, but if you're

14 taking the road, then it's about 15 kilometres.

15 Q. You talked about the booby traps and the people in the vehicle.

16 How many people were in the vehicle? Was it your Intervention Unit or

17 Platoon?

18 A. It wasn't the entire Intervention Platoon. It was Jovan Vukovic's

19 unit. He was in command at Tjentiste at that time generally speaking.

20 Half of it was his people and half were ours. And I said that they were

21 nine killed on the spot, eight seriously wounded, and two who were

22 unaffected, and one who was lightly injured. Nothing happened to the

23 driver and the man sitting next to him because it was one of the back

24 wheels that hit the mine.

25 Q. Of the nine people killed, how many were from your unit?

Page 7448

1 A. Two.

2 Q. Of the eight people wounded, how many were from your unit?

3 A. Well -- oh, if I could do all the counting now. About six.

4 Q. All the people who were wounded or killed were soldiers; right?

5 A. Yes, yes, because they were going off for military duty. They

6 were going to replace someone else at the positions there, another group.

7 Q. When this incident happened, this was a terrible blow to your unit

8 and Jovan Vukovic's as well, right, to have so many injured and dead?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And it would be understandable that the surviving comrades would

11 be angry; right?

12 A. Well, I don't think so. There is no reason for that. I mean,

13 it's not that there is no reason, but all of them were men who only went

14 to positions and nothing else. Normal people, as far as I know them.

15 They were normal people for sure. I don't think that they were vengeful

16 or that they would do any such thing.

17 Q. I'm not asking about vengeance. I'm just talking about the normal

18 human reaction. One of the normal human reactions is anger; right?

19 A. Well, they mostly felt sorry for all of us rather than being

20 angry. They were sorry rather than angry, because it is a shock.

21 Q. You yourself were angry and depressed from that time and a few

22 months after that while you were in rehabilitation; right?

23 A. I don't know how come you came up with that.

24 Q. When you were discharged from the rehabilitation institute, didn't

25 they tell you that you had -- or didn't they put in a report that you had

Page 7449

1 strong depressive reactions with manic episodes and subsequent

2 disciplinary problems?

3 A. Please. When I was discharged, it was written that I was

4 discharged before I was supposed to be discharged, and it's because of

5 this unfortunate Josanica that took place on St. Nicholas Day, the 19th of

6 December. And anybody would be depressed when all links are cut off

7 between where you are and your town. You can't get any kind of

8 information, who got killed, who got injured. I don't see who could stay

9 normal in that situation. And I asked them to speed things up and to

10 finish all of this as soon as they could. If they could, they could; if

11 they couldn't, they couldn't. But I wanted to go back to my home town as

12 soon as possible to see what was happening to my family.

13 Q. Let me just understand this correctly. Are you saying that you

14 were only depressed about your losing your two legs only after the

15 massacre in Josanica?

16 A. I'm not depressed until the present day, madam. I'm quite calm.

17 I'm a calm and stable person, and I really have good intentions towards

18 everyone in the world.

19 Q. Sir, after this vehicle hit the land mine, you required immediate

20 medical attention and were taken to Foca hospital; right?

21 A. I explained how we were transferred. This was a small TAM truck.

22 At that time, only this leg, this right leg that had been blown off, had

23 been treated, and I said that I was losing consciousness because I was

24 bleeding all the way to the hospital, and when I came to the hospital I

25 completely passed out, and for one hour for sure I was practically dead.

Page 7450

1 I was even singled out for the morgue, and then I don't know how

2 Dr. Dostic brought me back to life. Only God knows.

3 Q. Sir, we don't need to have it repeated. What you have just

4 described to us was your first day. That was when you were in the Foca

5 hospital; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in fact, during that time, you required seven units of blood

8 transfusion because you had lost so much blood; right? And obviously this

9 was a life-threatening situation --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- for you; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And your parents came to your bedside immediately, didn't they?

14 A. No, not immediately. They had been told that I was dead, as I

15 already said. My father, as I said, he is a very sensitive man and he

16 feels sick when he feels blood - he can't take such things - let alone

17 seeing his son dead. So they didn't come immediately. And I know all

18 this from what I was told later, and even when somebody called me --

19 called him to ask him to come and see me, he said, "Just please don't ask

20 me to go to the morgue to see my child." I don't remember all of this

21 because I was unconscious. All I know is the next morning, they were with

22 me.

23 Q. The next day, you were taken to the Belgrade hospital and your

24 parents went with you then; right?

25 A. I was transferred by helicopter, as I already said, because my

Page 7451













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Page 7452

1 left leg was still in one piece, although very swollen and whatnot. As

2 soon as I arrived in Belgrade, as soon as we landed, I was transferred to

3 the VMA. The left leg had to be amputated due to gangrene. And my

4 parents arrived only the next day, as far as I remember. And I cannot say

5 that I really remember those things much. Most of what I know is from

6 what others told me. The next 10 or 15 days, when I would regain

7 consciousness, I would see them through the window, through this glass

8 shield between the intensive care unit and the hallway. I was there

9 together with my cousin Vitomir, Arso's son. I could see all of them:

10 Arso, Jovana, my father and Momir Krnojelac too. They were all there. I

11 know they left only when I was released from intensive care, and that

12 was -- I think it was the 4th of July. I remember it because it's the

13 day of fighters, a holiday, a national holiday in Yugoslavia. And that is

14 why I remember that they left on the 6th, after my release from the

15 intensive care unit, because it was certain by that time that I would

16 remain alive.

17 Q. During this time when you were in intensive care, you talked about

18 seeing them through a window. Your family members couldn't actually come

19 and sit at your bedside? Is that my understanding -- is that the correct

20 understanding?

21 A. Everywhere in the world, in intensive care units, you -- no one is

22 allowed except personnel, except medical staff, due to danger of

23 infection, and you can only see your relatives through that glass shield,

24 and I could see them and my cousin Vito.

25 Q. During this time you were going in and out of consciousness

Page 7453

1 because of the severity of your injuries; right?

2 A. Since my right leg was treated as well, when my left leg had

3 already been operated on, my right leg caught the infection and it was

4 amputated as well, and I suffered the aftereffects of anaesthesia.

5 When -- until they pass completely, a person prefers to sleep. Even if

6 you try to stay awake, you don't really stand a chance.

7 Q. During the time that you were in intensive care, you -- and you

8 saw your family through the window, you were going in and out of

9 consciousness because of the anaesthesia; right? You were still suffering

10 from the effects or the aftereffects?

11 A. Truly.

12 Q. Was your brother Spomenko there in the Belgrade hospital, either

13 being treated or as part of the visitors?

14 A. Spomenko was there the whole time, for a whole month, until the

15 31st of July. He was with me at the VMA. After that, he was there for

16 another month visiting me at Rudo at the institute for prosthetics --

17 Q. Your brother Dubravko --

18 A. -- every day.

19 Q. Was your brother Dubravko also visiting you at the hospital in

20 Belgrade?

21 A. I said I didn't remember Dubravko that first day when he brought

22 them. It's they who told me, my father and my mother, that it was he who

23 drove them, because my uncle and aunt arrived in another car.

24 Q. And after your brother Dubravko brought your parents, he went home

25 in his own car again; right?

Page 7454

1 A. No. You're saying "his own car." Again, Dubravko didn't have his

2 own car. It was my car, the Yugo. Dubravko had an official vehicle given

3 to him by the police for his use, a white Golf.

4 Q. I meant that your brother drove your parents to Belgrade and then

5 your brother Dubravko left Belgrade in a vehicle to go back to Foca;

6 right?

7 A. That's true.

8 Q. Do you know why your brother didn't stay with the rest of the

9 family in Belgrade with you?

10 A. I couldn't tell you that. I don't know. Probably. I don't know.

11 Q. He was under a work obligation, right, at the police station?

12 A. Yes. There were a few vehicles then. It may be that he had to

13 return the vehicle. There must have been a reason. I really don't know

14 the reason. I can't tell you about that.

15 Q. Was your mother under a work obligation at this time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where did she work?

18 A. She worked at Privredna Banka.

19 Q. Doing what?

20 A. I don't know. In the accounting unit, the bookkeeping.

21 Q. And she stayed during this whole time from the 23rd of -- or 24th

22 of June until, you said, the 6th of July; right?

23 A. Could you please repeat that question?

24 Q. From the time you were admitted to the hospital in Belgrade until

25 the 6th of July, your mother stayed there with you; right? That's what

Page 7455

1 you've told us.

2 A. I didn't say that anyone had stayed until the 6th of July. I

3 think what I said was that I didn't know how long they stayed. Excuse

4 me. I do remember. My father, Arso, Jovana, everybody stayed until the

5 6th of July, when they left for Foca, and my mother returned very soon

6 after that with my girlfriend.

7 Q. During the time that you were at the KP Dom with your father, you

8 saw what a difficult job your father had at the KP Dom; right?

9 A. It must have been. A job like that requires a lot of effort,

10 time, and work, because the damage on the buildings was considerable.

11 Q. And you understood his job to be to put the KP Dom back together

12 in working order; right?

13 A. Yes, precisely, and to start up the business at the Drina Economic

14 Unit again.

15 Q. This was a job that was very important to accomplish during this

16 time; right?

17 A. Every job is important, and that job too was certainly valuable

18 and important.

19 Q. Your father couldn't stay away from the KP Dom for two weeks in

20 Belgrade with you while this job went undone; right? As much as he would

21 like to, it wasn't possible during this time, was it?

22 A. Well, I must ask you another question in return. If you had a

23 child who was fighting for his or her life, would you be here in this

24 courtroom or would you be at your child's side? I believe you would be

25 with your child right now, because life is more important than any job in

Page 7456

1 the world.

2 Q. So your father went to the military unit to get permission to be

3 relieved for those two weeks from this very important job to be with you;

4 right? That's what would be necessary.

5 A. I cannot answer that question, because I don't know about it

6 really.

7 Q. Your father cared about you very much, didn't he?

8 A. Like any parent cares for his child.

9 Q. When he saw what had happened to you, he tried to help you in

10 whatever way he could; right?

11 A. Of course he wanted to help me. I don't know what you mean by

12 saying "in any way he could."

13 Q. Well, when he realised that you would be confined to a wheelchair,

14 he tried to make a device so that you could exercise your arms, right,

15 some sort of metal device?

16 A. I don't know what you are talking about.

17 Q. Your father never gave you or talked to you about coming up with

18 some way for you to exercise your arms so that at least you would get some

19 form of exercise? He never did that for you?

20 A. Please, I have my wheelchair to exercise my arms. To move a

21 weight like mine with your arms alone is exercise enough. You don't need

22 any other exercise. To shift from your wheelchair to your bed or to a

23 bathtub is a great effort, it's major exercise, and I'm doing all of that

24 alone.

25 Q. In 1992 you were not as heavy as you are today, right, immediately

Page 7457

1 after your injury? You were fit.

2 A. Well, my build didn't change. It's just that my stomach is now

3 bigger, for lack of exercise. It's certain that I didn't weigh as much as

4 I do today. I weigh 150 kilos nowadays. That's a lot.

5 Q. My question was related precisely to the issue of exercise, that

6 your father, because he was concerned about your well-being, was looking

7 for ways that you could exercise; right?

8 A. No, no, no. I don't know about any device being made for me by my

9 father.

10 Q. You testified that you took over the apartment of a Muslim named

11 Granov, a woman name Pasa, whose husband had died?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. Was that woman also related to an Adil Granov?

14 A. I really don't know. I don't know how I could possibly know.

15 Q. I ask you because Foca is a small town, and you knew the name of

16 the woman who lived there even though she wasn't there any more. So the

17 question was simply whether you knew if Adil Granov was related to her.

18 A. Please, Foca had about 20.000 inhabitants. There is no way I

19 could have known everyone in Foca. And I didn't even know that Pasa

20 Granov lived in that apartment before I got the decision granting me

21 temporary use from the executive committee.

22 Q. Before you moved into Mrs. Granov's apartment, there were -- you

23 described how there were three Muslim detainees and a guard there, and the

24 detainees painted the apartment. You never paid those detainees for the

25 work they did, did you?

Page 7458

1 A. I said that I had approached the executive committee, or more

2 precisely, Mr. Radojica Mladjenovic, and he told me not to worry, that he

3 would take care of everything and I would just get an apartment and move

4 into it, and that's how it happened. When the works were done, I went

5 there to see what the apartment was like, and it was on that occasion that

6 I found those three men that you mentioned.

7 Q. You mentioned that one of the Muslim detainees who worked on the

8 apartment was named Atif.

9 A. Atif.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... also worked on the Cafe Gong

11 that belonged to your brother Spomenko.

12 A. Right. Right.

13 Q. That was when Atif was still a detainee at the KP Dom; right?

14 A. You must believe me. I really don't know that. I wasn't there at

15 the time. I found him in 1994 in my apartment, and I knew him from before

16 the war. He worked together with a good friend of mine, Slavko Subetic,

17 and Aleksandar Neric, in Zoil. Sorry, it wasn't Zoil. It's the UPI.

18 They're in the same building. That's why I made the mistake.

19 Q. We don't need this much information, sir.

20 Your brother Spomenko -- you gave us a list of where your

21 relatives lived, what kind of apartments they moved into shortly after --

22 during this time, but you didn't say where your brother Spomenko moved in,

23 whether his apartment belonged to a Muslim or a Serb. Could you tell us

24 now?

25 A. I can tell you that. He got a decision as well for a Muslim-owned

Page 7459

1 apartment in the Sunsa [phoen] building, but that was in the -- that was

2 in 1992 -- sorry, 1999, when we repaired the first part of our family

3 house. Both Spomenko and my mother returned to our family house, and they

4 returned that apartment to the institute for refugees, which is attached

5 to the municipal authorities.

6 Q. So just to complete the list that you began during your direct

7 examination, your brother Spomenko was given an apartment that formerly

8 belonged to a Muslim; right?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. You have told us that before the war, you worked at the company

11 Maglic, but after your injury, you decided to open a cafe, right, what is

12 now the Cafe Uno?

13 A. Cafe Uno, yes, but to this day, I'm registered with Maglic, and my

14 workplace is not determined, because they don't have a workplace, a job,

15 for an invalid. And the Cafe Uno I opened only after the shop for

16 foodstuffs, but when the borders were closed, you couldn't continue

17 importing fruit or vegetables and everything that was necessary to run

18 that business. I had to close that shop and redo it and turn it into a

19 cafe, which is called Uno. That's what I have nowadays. Without that, I

20 don't know how I would be able to support my family, because I'm not

21 getting anything from the state.

22 Q. The store for foodstuffs used to belong to a Muslim before the war

23 named Saja Sahinspahic; right?

24 A. I would really like you to go to the court, to their files unit,

25 and take out that file. That shop is registered with the Slovene company

Page 7460

1 Planika to this day. I don't know how you came up with this, that it was

2 Saja's property. And even if it were, I wouldn't have a problem with

3 leasing it out and paying rent for this property. I'm paying the rent now

4 to the municipality.

5 Q. Saja had a lease on that property but wasn't able to develop it

6 before the war started, and he was forced out of Foca because he was

7 Muslim; right?

8 A. He wasn't forced out of Foca. Nobody was forced out. Please.

9 There was a war, and both sides waged it. And as for Saja and his leasing

10 that business, I think that would have been registered somewhere in

11 municipal books, and I would really appreciate it if you could show me

12 that document. I have tried. I have really tried to check who this shop

13 belonged to, and find out, but all I was able to find was that it was

14 registered to Planika of Slovenia. And I think that in 1974, somebody

15 named Mazic sold these premises to the Slovene company of Planika.

16 Q. We don't need this much information. The metal rack that you

17 talked about which needed to be straightened for your cafe, you went

18 directly to Relja Goljanin at the KP Dom metal shop to have that

19 straightened out; right?

20 A. No, no, no, no. I was trying to find out from my friends if there

21 was anybody who could help me with this, because it was difficult to

22 resolve this problem. And then a friend of mine called me to say that he

23 had a metal rack, a used one - this friend's name was Zale - and I just

24 wanted to know if they could be straightened.

25 Q. You're giving us way too much detail. The question was, did you

Page 7461

1 go to Relja Goljanin? You testified that you did. So my question was,

2 did you go to him directly? If you didn't go to him directly, you can

3 simply tell us who you went through, but we don't need so much detail.

4 A. Directly to the chief of the metalwork shop, Relja Goljanin.

5 Q. You went to Mr. Goljanin and you had access to him because your

6 father had been at the KP Dom; right? And that's how you knew

7 Mr. Goljanin?

8 A. I said I was at the KP Dom from the 21st of April, and I got to

9 meet Relja Goljanin personally. I knew what his job was, so I was able to

10 go and see him, knowing that he was the chief there, that he makes

11 decisions about the metalwork shop, and that he could decide without

12 asking anyone whether it was possible to do this, to straighten the rack,

13 and he said he could do that.

14 Q. Wasn't it true that after you met with Mr. Goljanin and told him

15 what you needed, that Muslim detainees from the KP Dom went and made a

16 metal rack for your cafe, or at least took measurements for it?

17 A. Please, it was not a cafe. It was a food store. And I needed

18 this rack for the food store, not for the cafe. I don't know who in the

19 metalwork shop did the work, who straightened them.

20 Q. What year did you have the food store?

21 A. 1994. It was opened in August or maybe October; I couldn't say

22 exactly.

23 MS. KUO: Your Honour, it appears to be 4.00.

24 JUDGE HUNT: We will resume at 9.30 in the morning.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

Page 7462

1 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday the 14th day

2 of June, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.