Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7544

1 Monday, 25 June 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is case number IT-97-25-T,

7 the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Well, now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I think we better deal

9 with your outstanding motion first. This is the motion to amend.

10 First of all, you will have observed that the Trial Chamber was

11 taken by surprise at the addition of those words about where they were

12 killed, not having been given any warning of it at all. But so far as I'm

13 concerned, at least, your alternative, which you state in paragraph 6 of

14 your submission of the 19th of June, seems to at least be less

15 confrontational about the matter. That figure of 266 Muslims and other

16 non-Serbs appears elsewhere in the indictment, as I recall, does it not?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I do not think that it appears in the

18 indictment. It's actually the list of Mr. Subasic who had made this

19 particular list of the detainees that were last seen in the KP Dom and

20 disappeared.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, yes.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's the 266.

23 JUDGE HUNT: I see. Right. All right, then.

24 Mr. Bakrac, what's your attitude? You've filed a document saying

25 you don't object to the amendment, but the Trial Chamber would be happy if

Page 7545

1 it was amended in the way that we have just been discussing. Have you any

2 problem with that?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has promised

4 to give you an answer by Monday morning and prepare it over the weekend,

5 although we were travelling. We were also concerned. Although we

6 understood deportation to be the core of the amendment, in the third

7 amended indictment it says "deported" where they had been killed, which is

8 quite different from the Prosecutor's pre-trial brief. It was our

9 understanding that this was an assumption, because the Prosecution said

10 that they did not have any evidence to support this.

11 We were also concerned, like the Trial Chamber, where additional

12 explanations were sought, and we got that through point 6, which you

13 referred to. As you said, it is less confrontational than the

14 indictment. However, the Defence would prefer if the Prosecution would

15 use the term "assumed not to be alive" rather than "no longer alive."

16 Also, I think the figure 266, in this situation, Mr. Amor Masovic

17 did not give information concerning all persons as to when they were last

18 seen at the KP Dom. That can also be an imprecision which can work to the

19 detriment of the accused, because we saw that the accused was in the KP

20 Dom until July 1993. I don't think that's going to be contested.

21 Detained Muslims remained at the KP Dom until October 1994, that is to

22 say, an additional year.

23 The question is whether any of these 266 persons were deported

24 after July and August 1993. That is a cause of concern for the Defence,

25 and we believe that some of these persons could have been deported from

Page 7546

1 the KP Dom after this particular period, and the accused cannot be charged

2 with that.

3 The Defence did not want to lengthen the proceedings unnecessarily

4 by asking Masovic when they were last seen, when they were deported, et

5 cetera, each and every one of the 266. Therefore, we believe that the

6 Prosecution could amend that section and say that these persons are among

7 those who are assumed to be dead, and to have this figure, 266, deleted

8 from the indictment; that is to say, a certain number of persons were

9 deported, persons who are registered as missing.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, you didn't take any issue with that

11 witness about the 266, and that's, I assume, what the Prosecution is

12 relying upon. But nevertheless, the fact that the indictment asserts that

13 there were 266 isn't proof that there were 266. It's simply, the

14 Prosecution wants to argue that there were 266 who were deported. It is

15 obvious that your client cannot be made responsible for anybody who is

16 deported after he finished his time as the warden of the KP Dom. It's

17 nothing against your client at all for this amendment to be made with that

18 figure in it. That's a matter that the Prosecution has to prove, and we

19 have yet to hear argument about it, but the absence of any issue taken

20 with the witness at the time I think at least gives the Prosecution the

21 argument that they should be entitled to allege 266, even if they can't

22 prove it. So I don't think your client is in any way prejudiced by that

23 figure going into the indictment.

24 You had, of course, filed this response in which you consented to

25 the whole amendment, which rather surprised the Trial Chamber, if I may

Page 7547

1 say so, and we won't hold you to it, but nevertheless let's get down to

2 what the real issue is. What is the difference between saying that

3 somebody is assumed to be dead and they have never been seen alive again?

4 What's the difference?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That's not the

6 difference the Defence sees. That's why I refer to point 6, but in the

7 indictment it says that they were killed. That is what concerned the

8 Defence, like the Trial Chamber. I must admit that you say that you were

9 surprised by the answer, but if you remember, you objected to me as

10 Defence counsel, that I was acting out of an abundance of caution and now

11 perhaps I have moved in the other direction to an extreme, trusting the

12 Trial Chamber, and that is why, over a short period of time, we tried to

13 speed up the proceedings in the belief that the Trial Chamber would react

14 to the amended indictment, not to repeat all of that now. And I think

15 that what you asked me now, "have no longer been" -- "have not been seen

16 since" or "are not among the living," does not really constitute a

17 meaningful difference.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Good. Thank you very much. You may assume that we

19 are looking after your client's interests, and we are not trying to hold

20 your consent against you. I thought I had made that absolutely clear.

21 Very well then.

22 Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the amendment would have to be made in

23 the terms of what you have put in paragraph 6. You will also of course

24 have to delete all of the Geneva Convention charges. I don't know why

25 they are there.

Page 7548

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It was just an oversight.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I see.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We changed this one paragraph we talked

4 about, and we didn't really --

5 JUDGE HUNT: You've still got it in your machine, obviously.

6 Well, you'll have to delete all of the Geneva Convention charges and put

7 the wording of paragraph 5.2 to accord with what you have suggested in

8 paragraph 6.

9 Yes. Well then, the Trial Chamber will grant leave to the

10 Prosecution to make that amendment. You better get the indictment on

11 perhaps by tomorrow sometime.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Now, your next one is the reopening of the

14 Prosecution case. We better get that one sorted out as well. Can you

15 tell me what this material is relevant to? None of these victims that

16 have been discovered in one of these graves are Schedule C identities, are

17 they?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour. They are belonging to the

19 plum-picker groups and other exchange groups.

20 JUDGE HUNT: But your case has been put by you very fairly that

21 you have no evidence that they were killed as a result of anything that

22 the accused did, so where is the relevance? It's not part of the charge.

23 I don't see how it can be a matter in aggravation.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We believe that it is quite a difference if

25 someone is taken out of the KP Dom and actually exchanged and deported to

Page 7549

1 Montenegro or he's taken out and killed and found in a mass grave. To us,

2 it's relevant for sentencing.

3 JUDGE HUNT: We can't sentence him for something that you haven't

4 charged him with. That's fundamental. I thought we had that debate in

5 the last case.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's correct, Your Honour. We are not

7 charging him with being involved in the killing as such, but if he hands

8 over detainees not caring about what happens to them, it makes a

9 difference when they end up dead. That is what at least we think.

10 JUDGE HUNT: That may be so, if you charge that he recklessly sent

11 them off realising they may well be killed, but that's not charged

12 either. All you said is that he took part in the deportation of these

13 Muslims. And indeed, your pre-trial brief was put on the basis the moment

14 they went outside the door of the KP Dom, they'd been deported, which may

15 or may not be right, but you have never suggested previously that he did

16 something recklessly or with reckless indifference to the consequences to

17 these people. There is no evidence, for example, that it was known that

18 they were killed at the time that he is still alleged to have been

19 deporting them.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's correct, Your Honour, but we thought

21 that the manner of death -- of deportation and the final destination of

22 these witnesses would be important for --

23 JUDGE HUNT: Only if you got the state of mind on the part of the

24 accused. You cannot punish somebody for what they have not been charged

25 with. Now, that's fundamental. I know that Ms. Kuo said that there was some

Page 7550

1 American authority to the contrary, but nevertheless we are not here in

2 America. We are applying international law, which I would have thought

3 myself was absolutely fundamentally clear: You cannot punish somebody for

4 something they have not been charged with. Matters of aggravation in

5 relation to those crimes is admissible provided you prove it beyond

6 reasonable doubt. It is admissible on the question of sentence. But it

7 has never been asserted in the indictment, and so far as I can see, I

8 don't understand there to be any evidence to support it. I realise that

9 it's important for the Prosecution in relation to perhaps other charges,

10 to -- or other trials, to have this material in, but we are not here as

11 some sort of repository of evidence.

12 We are at the very end of the case. We've got the last-but-one

13 Defence witness, the defendant himself, and to be amending or to reopen a

14 case at this stage, it has to be something of grave importance to the

15 case. Now, we also of course have some time constraints as we have been

16 trying to point out, with the ad litem Judges coming in September. So

17 that unless you can point to us that this is of great importance to the

18 Prosecution case and that there is some evidence to support an obligation

19 on the -- or at least a recognition by the accused that these people were

20 being sent to their deaths, it seems to me at least to be totally

21 irrelevant to anything we have to consider, or alternatively, if it is

22 relevant to something, it is of very minor importance. Now, what do you

23 want to say about that?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we just saw it the other way

25 around.

Page 7551

1 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sure you did.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The final destination, the killing of --

3 let's say the assumption that in addition to what is already in the

4 indictment, the assumption that 266 more people did not survive the KP Dom

5 is for the case charged, especially for the background section for the

6 persecution that was ongoing in Foca, an important factor for the -- for

7 us. Whether the accused, as you argued, cannot be -- cannot be considered

8 under sentencing, it's still part of the persecution that took place in

9 Foca, the amount of persecution against the Muslim population there, and

10 the accused being part of this persecution in general.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I did have a slight thought when

12 I was actually saying about it being irrelevant that you may try to put it

13 on this issue. That's why I said if it is relevant, it is of very minor

14 importance. If you can't succeed on the evidence you've got merely on the

15 evidence of their being deported as showing persecution, you're not going

16 to take it any further in proving that fact by proving this. You've got

17 an abundance of evidence which, if accepted, surely must establish some

18 form of persecution against the non-Serb population in the sense of an

19 attack upon the civilian population. But if you can't prove that they

20 were being deported, you're not going to get any further by showing that

21 they were deported and subsequently they were dead.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think we have actually proven that these

23 people were killed. I think that's the only conclusion that we can draw

24 from Mr. Masovic's testimony and from the fact that we have now two mass

25 graves with bodies from the KP Dom in there. I think we have proven

Page 7552

1 this.

2 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, then why do you need this

3 evidence? You are only arguing yourself out of your own proposition. It

4 is not important to your case, and to reopen a Prosecution case as late as

5 this, it's got to be of some fundamental importance.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I've misspoken here. I think

7 including the second mass grave, we have proven -- we would have proven,

8 so to speak, we would have proven that they are dead. That's --

9 JUDGE HUNT: The fact that they have never been seen alive again,

10 as you have asserted, is probably sufficient to get you in under

11 persecution as well. But it seems to me that you are seeking to reopen to

12 prove a remarkably small and unimportant part of your case, in the context

13 of the whole of your case. It would have been clearly admissible on that

14 issue, I would have thought, if it had been tendered in the case in

15 chief. But what benefit does the Prosecution get out of reopening its

16 case at this late stage?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, first of all, we thought that

18 reopening the case and having Mr. Kamppainen testifying is, for us, a

19 matter of half an hour. So that --

20 JUDGE HUNT: That's a different issue. What is the importance to

21 the Prosecution case of reopening on that very minor issue?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I've already said that we found it very

23 important to have some evidence in here of where the detainees that were

24 taken out actually ended up finally. It may not be of importance for this

25 accused, I agree.

Page 7553

1 JUDGE HUNT: Precisely. That's what we're really worried about.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But we have talked about missing people with

3 many witnesses, and the witnesses have expressed also their concerns and

4 so do the families, that it's important, it's important for the public

5 what happened to these missing people, and therefore we thought we have to

6 show it here in this court.

7 JUDGE HUNT: We are not a truth and reconciliation commission; I

8 think that just has to be accepted. When this Tribunal had plenty of

9 time, they allowed witnesses of the most remote relevance to the case to

10 come along and tell their story. We cannot afford that any more; the

11 International Community cannot afford that any more. That's something

12 which will have to be dealt with elsewhere; as I understand it, it is

13 being dealt with elsewhere. But we are here to try criminal cases. We

14 have an enormous backlog, and from what we read in the paper, we are going

15 to have an even more enormous backlog very shortly.

16 Now, we've got to get on with the case.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Okay. We withdraw our motion.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

20 Well, Mr. Bakrac, you wish to call your client now.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I call Mr. Milorad

22 Krnojelac to the stand to testify in this case.

23 [The witness takes the stand]

24 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Krnojelac, would you please make the solemn

25 declaration in the document which the usher is showing to you.

Page 7554

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Examined by Mr. Bakrac:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krnojelac, a few times or several times,

11 rather, I have repeated the same words of caution regarding the

12 interpretation. I don't think I'll have to say that to you. You have

13 heard that as many times, as many witnesses we've had. So please let us

14 both do our best not to make any problems for the interpreters.

15 A. I do apologise in advance for any kind of problems I may create in

16 this respect. You have forgiven others, so please forgive me as well.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Unfortunately, Mr. Krnojelac, your very first words

18 broke the injunction that your lawyer was giving you. Just watch the

19 television screen in front of you where the typing is going, and don't

20 answer until you have seen the typing finish.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Sir, please give us your name and surname, your year of birth and

23 place of birth.

24 A. My name is Milorad Krnojelac. I was born on the 25th of July,

25 1940. I was born in a village in the mountains which is called Birotici.

Page 7555

1 It belongs to a larger village named Bunovi.

2 Q. How far away is this village from Foca, sir?

3 A. This village is about 12 kilometres away.

4 Q. Were you born in a family of farmers?

5 A. I said that I was born in a mountainous area, and therefore one

6 cannot really say that this is a farmer's family. This is a family living

7 in a village. Since the terrain is mountainous, there is not farming

8 only. There is livestock grazing, and other activities. So one can't

9 call it a family of farmers, but rather a family of poor peasants living

10 in such mountainous areas, where houses are at least 400 or 500 metres

11 away from one another. Some are even kilometres away from one another,

12 because these houses are scattered all about due to the very

13 characteristics of this mountainous and hilly terrain.

14 Q. How many children were there in your family or, rather, how many

15 siblings did you have?

16 A. My late parents, Bogdan and Andza, had nine children. I'm the

17 ninth child. However, nowadays, only two out of the nine are still

18 alive.

19 Q. Did hunger, poverty, and wars kill some of your brothers and

20 sisters earlier on?

21 A. Five of the children were taken by the Second World War, under

22 different circumstances, mostly because there was no medical care. I

23 mentioned this is a hilly, mountainous area. So it was hunger and the

24 world war. The Second World War, four of us survived the Second World

25 War, our sister and us three brothers.

Page 7556

1 Q. What was the status of your family in terms of the property you

2 had?

3 A. Very poor. Especially, this was contributed to by the Second

4 World War. We became even poorer. It was hard, even for 15 or 20 years

5 after the Second World War, to earn something, especially as far as

6 livestock was concerned, in order to make a living and in order to keep

7 this poor family going in this hilly and mountainous area.

8 Q. In view of these bad conditions and poor financial status, did you

9 have to start working early, and where was it that you first worked? Was

10 it in the village that you began to earn your livelihood or ...

11 A. In these hilly and mountainous villages, a child, as of the age of

12 2 or 3, can already help his parents and his family and be of use to

13 them. If nothing else, to bring a lamb back from a meadow or to get a

14 glass of water to one of the older members of the family. So that as of

15 my early childhood, I performed all sorts of chores that, of course, I was

16 up to. Because to help one's family means, in a way, to do good both for

17 them and for oneself. So that very early, even before I started school -

18 I did that at a later stage than normal - I was a shepherd looking after

19 the herd that my family had, that my honourable and honest parents had.

20 They had a few sheep and a few cattle.

21 Q. Thank you. You told us that you did not start school in time.

22 Will you tell us, when was it that you enrolled at the primary school, and

23 how did your education unfold?

24 A. In those hilly and mountainous areas, there is a certain problem

25 and that is the distance of the school from one's home, and that was the

Page 7557













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Page 7558

1 case. Besides, it was post-wartime so that there wasn't a proper school

2 building there, and the lessons were delivered around houses; that is, the

3 building that housed the school was over ten kilometres away, so that I

4 enrolled in it when I was 9.

5 Q. And that -- but there were also lessons in winter. Did you walk

6 to that school or what?

7 A. In any event, in such areas -- well, perhaps I was a small boy and

8 that is how it looked like to me, but in those areas, there was much more

9 snow, snow drifts were much deeper, and one simply couldn't -- could not

10 attend classes regularly because unless some workers went through and made

11 a path through the snow drift, then you couldn't go to the school at all,

12 or at times, you went if there was somebody older than you who went there,

13 because there was already some lads who were quite grown up but who had

14 started at school late as it was in post-war years.

15 Q. And tell us, what kind of education do you have?

16 A. In the village of Bunovi, there was this so-called four-class

17 school. And that is more often than not the case in those mountainous

18 villages. That is, you have four classes of elementary school. And after

19 those four classes, I went to Foca to proceed with my schooling, that is

20 the fifth, sixth grade and so on. And I completed the eighth year primary

21 school, that is four grades in Foca, and then I enrolled at the secondary

22 school, and I completed two grades of secondary school. And at that time,

23 a teachers' college was opened in Foca, so that from the secondary school,

24 I moved over to the third grade of the teachers' college. And so I

25 graduated from it in 1962.

Page 7559

1 Q. And after the teachers' college, did you get a job, where and

2 when?

3 A. When I graduated from the teachers' college in 1962, by the decree

4 of the municipal education authority, I was assigned to work in the

5 elementary school at Zavait. And I started working there on the 1st of

6 September 1962. I said it was by decree that I was assigned there,

7 because at that time, the ministry assigned educators as they liked.

8 There were no public competitions where you would apply and therefore

9 choose where you would like to go to work.

10 Q. Is Zavait another village or is it a village school and how far is

11 it from Foca?

12 A. Zavait is also likewise a hilly, mountainous village, 25

13 kilometres away from Foca, and at that time, there was no road there.

14 That is, there was only this hilly, mountainous path, a dirt road only,

15 which could only be used by pedestrians and horses.

16 Q. Where did you live in Zavait while you worked in the school?

17 A. I have said that I had arrived in the month of September 1962, and

18 more educators arrived too at the time, so that we all were put up in the

19 school building, the same building that we taught in. There were three

20 rooms there, three rooms that were available, and in those three rooms,

21 the educators put up. One of them was a kitchen and the other two were

22 split between male and female teachers.

23 Q. Was your sister married to a man in Zavait?

24 A. My sister Staka was formerly married to somebody not far away from

25 our house in the village Kamenjaca, but sometime in 1950 something, her

Page 7560

1 husband died, and in the late 1950s, she remarried and came to village

2 Zavait because she married a man who was also likewise without a wife. He

3 was a widower, and had three daughters from his first marriage. In other

4 words, she not only left our home, she -- but she also left our village

5 and went to an entirely different area, to a completely different village.

6 Q. So the locality, or rather the house that your sister lived in was

7 not a Krnojelac house. Whose house is it?

8 A. Excuse me, this is not a Krnojelac house. It is -- and let me say

9 that this hamlet is called Kadijino Brdo, and her -- the house belonged to

10 her husband who is called Vasil Kalajdzic, and it is about 17 kilometres

11 away from our house, from our home, 17, maybe 18.

12 Q. Is that the reason why you did not live in your sister's house?

13 Or perhaps the customs are different there. Why did you live in the

14 school building?

15 A. Well, yes, precisely. Those village houses, one could, in point

16 of fact, say that they are not houses, that they are nothing but huts with

17 two rooms only. That is, the first room that you enter in, and where

18 there is a hearth, something like a fireplace, but it is not a fireplace,

19 but that is where you make fire and cook food, and another room which

20 serves as a bedroom. So there were simply no proper conditions for me to

21 live there. And I must say that for me, to my mind, such places also have

22 the lavatory facilities which are sometimes as many as 100 metres away

23 from those houses, which are mountain houses, if you like, or hilly

24 houses, or there was simply no room for me there. There were five of them

25 and I would be the sixth one, but it is very small. And these are wooden

Page 7561

1 houses and we call them huts. And they are the ones that exist in most

2 mountainous villages because the road was built only in the 1970s and it

3 was only then that proper houses began to be built. So there was simply

4 no way in which I could live there. Yes, I could go there and have lunch

5 and have dinner but not stay there. Besides, it was some two or three

6 kilometres away from the school.

7 Q. And when did you get married? And did your wife work together

8 with you?

9 A. Upon my arrival at the elementary school in Zavait, three lady

10 colleagues arrived, as I said - they had graduated from the teachers'

11 college in Sarajevo - and another man arrived and myself. Later on, we

12 were joined by a fourth lady colleague. And upon our arrival, and I being

13 a child from a rural area, and he having arrived from the town, we

14 nevertheless began to socialise, to strike friendship, and so that in

15 January 1993 [sic], I married my wife Slavica.

16 Q. And tell me, how many children did your wife bear you?

17 A. I sired four sons, but God has given me -- and I have to say this,

18 that the two of us had those four sons, and these four sons brought four

19 daughters-in-law, whom we consider as our proper daughters, and they gave

20 us nine grandchildren and we also consider them our children because they

21 are all a part of us, so that our family at present numbers 19.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, there is an error in the transcript.

23 It's one that you haven't jumped on so far. He suggested that he was

24 married in January, 1993.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I do apologise. I

Page 7562













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Page 7563

1 did not notice it, but I suppose it is 1963, but let us again --

2 Q. When did you get married?

3 A. Excuse me, my apologies, well, of course, for me, this is 1.108

4 days since I've been here. So that's why I made a mistake and mixed

5 things up. It was 1963 when I got married, of course.

6 Q. Thank you very much, sir. And tell us, how long did you go on

7 working for the school in Zavait, you and your wife, and did you during

8 that time undergo some additional training?

9 A. Well, it wouldn't be fair for me not to tell you that in Zavait,

10 in that school, I worked for only about two months, and after that, from

11 that eight-year elementary school, I was transferred, that is, I was moved

12 again by a decree to a school which was eight kilometres away from this

13 school, and that was a county school or -- four grades with 83 pupils at

14 the time. And until the end of the school year, I worked in that

15 four-grade elementary school, and the place was called Toholja.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krnojelac. I do not think we really need to go

17 into all this detail. Can you tell us, how long did you stay? Did you go

18 on working at the school in Zavait, and did you then further your

19 education?

20 A. After, when the school year ended, and that was September 1963, by

21 decree, please note this, I went to serve the army from the Zavait

22 school. I had to leave behind my son Spomenko and my wife in such a

23 mountainous, rural area, where there was no clinic of any kind, nor any

24 other decent living conditions. So that you wouldn't think that we went

25 on living in the school that school year, the old school building was

Page 7564

1 rebuilt so that flats for teachers were made, four flats.

2 Q. When did you move to Foca? Which year?

3 A. I moved to Foca in December 1973, and I began to work for the

4 Veselin Maslesa school. I worked there, with a brief interruption, until

5 the day of kidnapping, as a teacher of mathematics and physics.

6 Q. Between 1963 and 1973, did you have any other education? Did you

7 go to any other school?

8 A. Well, at that time, there was a major shortage of educators, of

9 teachers. So the municipal ministry and teaching advisors came to visit

10 schools, and on one occasion, after I had returned from my military

11 service, they conducted an interview with me. And they invested a major

12 effort and put a great deal of persuasion and talked me into or, rather,

13 ordered me to enrol at high school and become a maths and physics teacher,

14 and that was the teachers' academy in Sarajevo. So it was either take it

15 or leave the teaching profession. Since I was very keen on working with

16 children, I decided to then again leave my wife and my two sons and, in

17 agreement with my wife, to go to that school, to this teaching academy,

18 and therefore graduate from the course for mathematics and physics

19 teachers.

20 Q. So did you complete this school? Did you do it in time or did you

21 encounter some difficulties?

22 A. All my life I've fought with problems, so this period in my life

23 was also difficult. As Mr. Izet Sarajlic said, "Everything's happened to

24 me except death." So everything happened to me, all sorts of problem.

25 Two children and a wife left behind in a village like that, I'd gone for

Page 7565

1 my studies.

2 After a year or so, I had a death in the family, my father died.

3 Two years later, it so happened that my mother died. So that in a way, I

4 was a regular -- in a way, I was an extramural student. And to study

5 mathematics and physics as a extramural student, that was crazy. But

6 owing to persevering work, without electric energy, because that area had

7 no electric energy. We had only gas lamps at the time. At times I would

8 still be at a table at daybreak; I would sometimes fall asleep over that

9 table. But nevertheless, in 1980 [as interpreted] I managed to graduate

10 from this high teaching academy as a teacher of mathematics and physics,

11 in 1970. In 1970. Not 1980, 1970.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, we are now

13 checking, very alert to all the figures. It was 1970. But in the

14 transcript, at line 20, it says 1980 instead of 1970.

15 JUDGE HUNT: It actually has both dates, but we'll take it as

16 1970.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much, Your

18 Honours.

19 Q. So in 1973 you moved to Foca and began to work at the Veselin

20 Maslesa Elementary School; is that it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where did you stay when you moved to Foca in 1973?

23 A. Well, it was following an agreement in the trade union. One could

24 move from the village to the town depending on the number of years you had

25 spent in a rural area. There was no special competition. You simply had

Page 7566

1 to meet the conditions, how many years have you spent working in the rural

2 area, so that you could be transferred to a town.

3 The Veselin Maslesa school had published a competition and I

4 applied. Because at that time I had spent the longest service in a rural

5 area, I was transferred to the Veselin Maslesa school on those grounds.

6 Since I did not have proper lodging at that time, for about a year

7 and a half, I commuted between Foca and Zavait. But if the weather would

8 be too inclement during the winter months, at times I would stay and spend

9 the night with my brothers, who already had their houses in the town.

10 Q. When and how did you resolve the housing problem, that is, this

11 commuting between Zavait to Foca? When did you finally move over to Foca?

12 A. In late 1974, I bought a cowshed with a bit of a yard, with a bit

13 of -- with a small plot of land. But that cowshed, in point of fact,

14 housed a wool or yarning device; that is, there was some machinery for

15 spinning wool or something. So I bought this property, sharing it with my

16 neighbour from Zavait, Ilija Radovic. In 1995, we eventually managed --

17 Q. Excuse me. I have to interrupt you, not to waste time. You said

18 "in 1995," but it must be a mistake, you must have meant a different

19 year.

20 A. We bought it in late 1994 -- 1974, excuse me, I'm so sorry. In

21 1974, we bought that property, and in 1975, we already managed to make one

22 room fit for living. And so gradually, 1975, 1976, by that time we

23 already had two rooms with a shared lavatory.

24 My wife went on working in Zavait for awhile, and then with our

25 children, she also moved to that building. No, that accommodation of

Page 7567













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Page 7568

1 necessity.

2 Q. When did you start building your house in Donje Polje?

3 A. Well, that is that same plot of land. It is that same plot of

4 land where we had started building our house. Sometime in late 1977,

5 perhaps early 1978, we applied to the town planning authority, seeking

6 authorisation to build a house, as at that place there was already a

7 structure.

8 Since there wasn't much available area around that plot, one had

9 to buy some land from people who had larger gardens there. They said,

10 "Right, if you pay for that, then we shall authorise you to build your

11 house," and we agreed, so that we had all those papers -- all that

12 paperwork done by the end of 1979. As early as 1980, the month of April,

13 we started building the structure, that is, two buildings adhering one to

14 another, divided by vertical walls. And we could build independently of

15 each other because both structures had their own bearing walls, if you

16 understand what I mean.

17 Q. When you are talking about two structures, you mean this Ilija

18 Raduljevic's house?

19 A. No, no, he is Radovic. The second structure is Ilija Radovic's.

20 Q. Did you build this house straight away? Did you have enough cash

21 or did you have to borrow money? What did you do?

22 A. To start building such a structure, you first had to obtain

23 authorisations and then buy the project, because beforehand, as I told

24 you, we had bought those and adapted that earlier structure. But now that

25 part, that part of it was to be demolished immediately in order to build

Page 7569

1 one of the two buildings.

2 The teacher's salary being what it is, you had to buy a design.

3 So we applied for a loan and therefore we bought the design. My salary,

4 in its entirety, and the loans that we had obtained both from the school

5 itself and the Privredna Banka - at that time my wife was already employed

6 with the Privredna Banka in Foca - all that we had was invested in that

7 house and in which we all, from my children to myself, to my relatives,

8 friends, brothers, participated in one way or another, if nothing else

9 than physical labour, so as to complete it.

10 Q. That house of yours that you started building in 1980, was it

11 completed fully when the war conflict broke out?

12 A. In 1987 or 1988, I submitted another request to the town planning

13 office asking for a boiler room to be added to the house where a furnace

14 could be installed, in order to heat the entire housing area. This

15 request was approved. However, when this expert who makes the designs

16 showed me what this would look like, I said, "Well, it doesn't seem very

17 good to me. Would it be possible to build something further there in the

18 sense of enlarging the housing area?" And he said, "Milorad, if you can

19 afford it, we will do it for you." So the first part was completed by

20 1988 and the second part was only started in 1988. And when the war broke

21 out, it had not been completed yet. This other part had not had a roof

22 yet, but the walls had been built. So that was not finished. It wasn't

23 finished in the sense of having a roof on it, that part of the building,

24 that is.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

Page 7570

1 would like the witness to be shown photograph B1 from the photo files, to

2 be put on the ELMO, please.

3 Q. This right-hand part, is that the additional part that you were

4 telling us about, the right-hand side of the house, red bricks?

5 A. This part was built at a later stage. This was done quite later.

6 So this antenna was before on the other part of the roof and now it's here

7 I see. So this is the annex, so to speak, that was added after 1988.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to photograph

9 B1, the right-hand side of the house made of red bricks.

10 Q. Tell us, please, did this part also burn down in the fire in 1992?

11 A. I said that this part did not even have a roof at that time. Only

12 the walls were made. However, the materials were obtained for the roof

13 and it was in those days, that is to say in April 1992, that all the

14 preparations had been completed by April, and then the roof was supposed

15 to be placed. There was nothing to burn there because there was no wood.

16 It was only the bricks that were there, the brick walls, and bricks could

17 not burn down by themselves. They say in our parts that along with dry

18 wood, even other kinds of wood will burn as well, but here there was

19 nothing to get the bricks burning.

20 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, just one more question in relation to this

21 picture. These wooden frames on the new windows, on the new windows on

22 the new part and also on the windows that lead to the terrace, do you know

23 when these doors were actually fitted there?

24 A. See, I keep making all these mistakes in terms of years and

25 everything. Well, I'm not sure exactly but it seems to me that it could

Page 7571

1 be 70 -- no, sorry 1996, 1996, or perhaps even 1997. I hope you won't

2 mind, but this was built later, this was done later, because we had the

3 intention and desire to return to our home sweet home as soon as possible,

4 but they tell me that since the wood that the craftsmen used to build

5 these wooden frames was not dry enough, perhaps all of this will just fall

6 apart because now it's been drying so it doesn't fit properly.

7 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, what you've told us is sufficient, that this was

8 fitted in 1996 or 1997.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Usher. We won't be

10 needing this photograph any more.

11 Q. The house you were telling us about, whose photograph you showed

12 us, is in which part of Foca?

13 A. This house is in a neighbourhood that belongs to Donje Polje, near

14 the health centre.

15 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the population like before the

16 war in Donje Polje, before the conflict broke out? Was this a

17 predominantly Muslim area or mixed or were the numbers equal?

18 A. When we came from the village of Zavait and bought this land here,

19 and the house that was on that land, I was not interested at all in the

20 ethnic composition of the neighbourhood. I was just interested in getting

21 a plot of land regardless of which neighbourhood it was in. Please, can

22 you understand what I'm saying? When I said I was transferred from the

23 school in Zavait to Toholja, Toholja is a predominantly Muslim village.

24 So here I wasn't interested in the composition of the population either,

25 and I wasn't interested in it later either, but if you're asking me for

Page 7572













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7573

1 some other reason, then Donje Polje did have a majority Muslim population,

2 although in my immediate neighbourhood one could say that it was mixed,

3 perhaps half/half even. Actually, above the house, there were more

4 Serbs.

5 Q. Were you ever bothered by the fact that your house is in a

6 predominantly Muslim neighbourhood? Until the war conflict broke out, did

7 you have any problems with your neighbours?

8 A. I'm sorry, I am more bothered by the fact that you're putting this

9 question to me than by that. It never bothered me and it wouldn't bother

10 me right on this very day, the neighbourhood.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krnojelac. You mentioned, if I'm not mistaken,

12 that in 1963, you did your military service. Is that correct? And could

13 you please tell us where you did your military service?

14 A. In the month of September 1963, again by decree, against my own

15 wishes, I had to go to school, to leave behind my son who hadn't even

16 learned how to walk yet, and I had to leave my wife in that kind of a

17 milieu, so I went to the military reserve officer school, and that was the

18 reserve school for infantry officers in Bileca.

19 Q. Did you stay in Bileca until the end of your military service?

20 A. In Bileca, we had to master basic military rules and go through

21 certain training, which lasted between four and four and a half months. I

22 stayed in Bileca between five and six months, say five and a half months,

23 and then I was transferred to Macedonia, to Tetovo, to continue with my

24 military service.

25 Q. Did you leave the JNA with a rank?

Page 7574

1 A. This infantry reserve officer school in Bileca prepared reserve

2 officers. I left Bileca with the rank of lieutenant and went to Tetovo as

3 an intern sergeant.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake: It wasn't lieutenant, it

5 was sergeant.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You said that this was reserve officers training. What did that

8 imply? Where did this function? How did it function?

9 A. A reserve officer would at a later stage be joined in all national

10 defence or rather the Territorial Defence, that is to say, within a

11 certain territory.

12 Q. After you left the JNA, were there military exercises or

13 additional training for reserve officers?

14 A. At first, on paper, we did have assignments in the Territorial

15 Defence, but there weren't any exercises or anything. Later, I cannot say

16 exactly this additional training, it was rather to see how much people

17 learned and remembered during the training itself. That is, while they

18 actually did their military service. So first I commanded a platoon, for

19 example, and then I commanded a company, and then some other units. So

20 this was required by the territorial staff of the municipality of Foca,

21 and the republican territorial staff of the Republic of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 Q. This further promotion in terms of rank, did that imply serious

24 additional training or was it only military exercises, and how long did

25 they last?

Page 7575

1 A. These military exercises, I can't say it was military exercise if

2 it was only the leaders of a unit that were called in. It was a seminar

3 for a day or two or three or five days, perhaps sometimes even up to seven

4 days, because municipal staffs were in charge. Municipal staffs of the

5 Territorial Defence, that is, were charged with -- in charge of making

6 territorial plans in terms of timing, when each unit would be engaged in

7 military exercises, and they were given this task from the territorial

8 staff of the republic. So these exercises sometimes would not take place

9 for an entire year and then sometimes they would happen twice a year.

10 This also had to do with the financial resources available.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I'm not quite sure what your client means

12 by his reference to "the republic." Which republic is he speaking of?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That is precisely

14 what I wanted to ask. And also about these financial resources.

15 Q. So Mr. Krnojelac, please let me ask you a question. You heard the

16 Honourable Judge. When you say "the republic," which republic are you

17 referring to? And when you say "financial resources," are you saying that

18 there was a lack of financial resources so that these exercises were short

19 and were not organised often? Is that what you meant when you said

20 "financial resources"?

21 A. The municipality of Foca had as its republic the Republic of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so the Territorial Defence -- the Territorial Defence

23 staff of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was the one involved. That's

24 my republic, the republic where I lived until I came here to the

25 Netherlands.

Page 7576

1 As for resources, financial resources, since the municipality of

2 Foca was an underdeveloped municipality, it could not allocate enough

3 resources for providing to all units sufficient clothing, footwear, and at

4 times even weapons. Even food could not be provided for an entire day,

5 one entire day. So an underdeveloped municipality like that had to take

6 into account its own possibilities when making its plans.

7 Perhaps they portrayed those military exercises as taking place

8 for five days, whereas they would actually take place only for a day or

9 two. They just wanted to have it on paper, but they didn't really pay

10 that much attention to the quality of the exercise itself and whether it

11 was justified or whether it was not justified.

12 As for the composition of this Territorial Defence, I have to tell

13 you, because I don't want to be misunderstood, it was indeed taken into

14 account that there should be proportional representation, equal

15 representation of Muslims, Croats, and Serbs.

16 Q. You said that this was a reserve officers school that lasted four

17 and a half months, that is to say, officers for Territorial Defence who

18 were prepared for Territorial Defence and the reserve force. You said how

19 often or perhaps how rarely, to put it better, these military exercises

20 were held, and over what period of time.

21 During that time, that is to say, these four and a half months in

22 Bileca, and then later for a few months every year, was a doctrine

23 seriously studied by such officers? Did you study the Geneva Conventions,

24 et cetera? Tell me, what was done at these courses?

25 A. I stayed in Bileca five or six months. But, please, during the

Page 7577













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Page 7578

1 first month, people were getting to know what it would all be like and

2 what life there would be like, and then the training lasted for about four

3 months. And later these exams had to be passed. We had to pass exams

4 there, you see. We studied these military rules, the code of conduct.

5 Then we were trained as to how to handle weapons.

6 As for these Geneva Conventions, believe me, I cannot remember

7 that they were ever mentioned while I was in the army in Bileca. However,

8 forgive me, please, perhaps I should tell you why it was not necessary,

9 even later, for someone to do that.

10 All these military exercises that I took part in had the character

11 of all national defence. The officers would only be told, "The possible

12 attack by the blue ones could take place in that area," and how should

13 defence be organised. So it was all national defence, how to defend all

14 of one's own people. Not to attack somebody else's territory and go

15 somewhere else. That is how I understood it from day one. Believe me, I

16 never thought that it would be used in any other way.

17 In this case, how it was used in this unfortunate

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina of ours, and we see what is going on nowadays

19 throughout the Balkans, and what happened in Yugoslavia too, and we see

20 what came out of all of this.

21 So as for the Geneva Conventions, I think that for a long, long

22 period of time, even in the active military where education and training

23 go on for five or six years, they were not used for a long time; that they

24 were not specifically studied as a subject. Although I found out only

25 recently that in 1989, a subject of that kind was introduced involving a

Page 7579

1 textbook as well.

2 You have to understand the difference between the Yugoslav

3 People's Army and the Territorial Defence. It is as different as the sky

4 is from the earth.

5 Q. Did you ever expect a war to break out in the territory of

6 Yugoslavia, that Yugoslavia would be at war with anyone, let alone that

7 there would be a war within Yugoslavia itself?

8 A. I cannot understand until the present day. As I said, I have been

9 here for 1.108 days, and I still cannot understand that that happened.

10 And that a person can be so deluded to think that something like that

11 could ever happen, I see that only now. Because I could not in any

12 conceivable way think of this kind of thing happening, like what actually

13 happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It did happen.

14 Believe me, on the 18th of April, 1992, I said -- well, you're not

15 asking about it now so I don't want to talk about it, but I did say even

16 then that it is unbelievable that it actually happened, and I said who I

17 actually blamed for that. When I left my modest home, I hoped again,

18 although gunpowder could be smelled all over and firearms could be heard,

19 I hoped that people would come to their senses, and that at least in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, where there was such a composition of the population,

21 this kind of thing never should have happened.

22 Q. Thank you, sir.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a good

24 point to take a break.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. I hope that when we come back, we can finally

Page 7580

1 move on to what did happen, at least in the relevant decade. We've got to

2 get there sooner or later.

3 We'll resume again at 11.30.

4 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry we are late. It was my fault. Yes,

7 Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, we talked about you as a reserve officer in the

10 Territorial Defence. When did you attend a military exercise last; do you

11 remember that?

12 A. In 1982, because that was when my eldest son went to do his

13 military service, and I was at my son's farewell party only one evening.

14 Q. And after that, did you attend any other military exercises or did

15 you return the uniform and other gear?

16 A. In 1984, there was a reorganisation of the unit that I was a

17 member of and the structure and the strength of the unit were changed so

18 that I was taken off that unit and I did not attend any drills after

19 that. And I returned the gear that I had, and that was the clothing and

20 footwear, because weapons were normally returned immediately after the

21 exercise, if we had been issued with any, but it wasn't always the case.

22 Q. And what rank did you have at the time when you returned your

23 gear?

24 A. I was a Captain First Class.

25 Q. Do I understand you well, a reserve captain?

Page 7581

1 A. Yes, a reserve captain, yes, throughout; Reserve Captain First

2 Class, because it was the reserve force.

3 Q. So after that, you did not undergo any trainings, any military

4 trainings, and you made no advancement in your military career; is that

5 correct?

6 A. No. After that, I had -- I attended no other military exercises,

7 because I was assigned to labour duty by the ministry, to the -- and that

8 was in the Veselin Maslesa Elementary School as the mathematics and

9 physics teacher.

10 Q. And after that, until the armed conflict broke out, were you ever

11 a member of the municipal Territorial Defence staff in the town of Foca?

12 A. I cannot say that I was a member of the territorial staff, even

13 though when I was a member of the territorial unit, because the

14 territorial staff had a structure of its own so that, no, I wasn't. I

15 wasn't even on their books because after the reorganisation, the complete

16 composition and structure and strength of the unit were changed.

17 Q. You said that you were issued with weapons at times for military

18 exercises and that you returned them back immediately. Did you have any

19 personal weapons at home?

20 A. Ever since -- ever since I've become aware of myself, I've never

21 wanted to have any weapons at home, and I never had, nor did I ever want

22 to have or own anything like it, and especially to have weapons with four

23 sons in the house, that would really be too hazardous, and no intelligent

24 man should keep any weapons in the house where there are children.

25 Q. Prior to your arrival in The Hague, did you have any criminal

Page 7582













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Page 7583

1 record? Were you ever punished, served a sentence?

2 A. As far as I can recall, I was never even fined for anything, let

3 alone a criminal record.

4 Q. Before the armed conflict broke out in Foca on the 8th of April,

5 did you take part in politics? Were you a member of the Serb Democratic

6 Party?

7 A. It seems to me that everybody should understand by now that a

8 teacher who wants to do his duty in the interests of young generations,

9 that such a teacher does not have time to go into politics, and never,

10 except that I was a member of the League of Communists, but I was never a

11 member of any other party, and that includes the time before the armed

12 conflict broke out. And it seems to me that even that in the former

13 system, it was even -- the teachers were prohibited by statute to be

14 members of any other system. Well, in education, there was a single-party

15 system, and in it, you could -- rather, you couldn't do as you pleased.

16 You couldn't say what you pleased. But you were always free to lie down

17 wherever you pleased.

18 Q. You say that you were not a member of the Serb Democratic Party

19 before the armed conflict broke out. On the break-out on the 8th of

20 April, did you take part in political activities? Did you attend

21 rallies? Were you friends with active politicians in Foca at the time?

22 A. Perhaps I should not really repeat what I heard, but I was really

23 surprised by some people who said that they had seen me. Believe me, I

24 never was friends or attended a single rally. There was even the SDA

25 rally which was less than a hundred metres -- which was held less than a

Page 7584

1 hundred metres from my house, and I did not even go there; that is, I did

2 not go to a rally of any single party, nor did I make friends with those

3 people, because I think that it was precisely those political parties and,

4 to a degree, some other forces which contributed to a disaster which

5 struck Bosnia-Herzegovina. But not only Bosnia-Herzegovina, I'd say

6 Yugoslavia as such.

7 Q. But the circle of your friends with whom you passed time before

8 the armed conflict did not include politicians. Who did you socialise

9 with, then?

10 A. I socialised with people who had neither left nor right leanings,

11 who were not politicians. I was friends with my colleagues, and we always

12 talked how we teachers had no right, nor a nicer task than to do -- than

13 to discharge our trade, the education and upbringing of young

14 generations. That was our only goal, and that was why we had gone to and

15 come out of teaching schools.

16 Q. You said that you were a member of the League of Communists only.

17 When did you become a member of the League of Communists, and until when

18 were you a member of the League of Communists?

19 A. I said that I worked in the village of Zavait until 1973, the end

20 of 1973, December. I claim under full responsibility that it was only as

21 late -- as early as 1973 that I became a member of the League of

22 Communists. That was my -- I allowed those people to persuade me, because

23 it is a small locality, you see them every day, and it was simply that I

24 was a teacher that they wanted me -- to enrol me as a teacher. They

25 wanted to enrol me in the League of Communists.

Page 7585

1 Q. And how long were you a member of the League of Communists?

2 A. I was a member until such moment when that single party

3 organisation was disbanded. Don't hold it against me, but I should say

4 that it was sometime in 1989.

5 Q. Did you join the League of Communists because it was your ideal,

6 because of your beliefs, or did you simply want to advance in your career

7 and you thought that it would help you to do that?

8 A. I had no aspirations to make any further career advancements. I

9 always wanted to be an educator, to educate young generations and to see

10 the result, the fruits of my work. My pupil is much more educated than I

11 am, and when you meet, when you come across your pupil who had become an

12 engineer or a physician, so I had -- I absolutely did not benefit from

13 that organisation, except that I had to pay my membership fee out of my

14 personal income.

15 Q. Did the League of Communists of Yugoslavia advocate the

16 brotherhood and unity of peoples?

17 A. I was about to say, I already mentioned sympathy, because words

18 themselves, and no matter how much people today condemn and censor Josip

19 Broz Tito, but he always spoke about brotherhood and unity and he always

20 said, "Look after brotherhood and unity as the apple of your eye." And

21 always and to this day, I am happy to hear it, to this day. But

22 unfortunately you do not hear such words any longer, and nobody bears that

23 in mind. And then you see what happens.

24 Q. You said that from 1973 to its disbanding, you were a member of

25 the League of Communists. Did you join the League of Communists as a

Page 7586

1 teacher and end as a teacher, or did you advance in your career during

2 that period while you were a member of the League of Communists?

3 A. I've just told you that I never made any such advancement, and I

4 never aspired to any such thing. I always wanted to teach mathematics and

5 physics, because mathematics and physics are both natural sciences and

6 everything is very easy and simple to prove in them.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. But naturally with work, because you cannot prove even that

9 without work, if you don't work. Because if I may, with your leave, if

10 you want to resolve a mathematical problem, then you have first to read

11 through it carefully, then you have also to glean a particular procedure,

12 what it is that you know, what you don't know in that problem, to

13 establish the relationship with the known and unknown --

14 Q. There is no need to go into all this detail concerning mathematics

15 and physics. So tell me only if your other fellow teachers were also

16 members of the League of Communists until it was disbanded?

17 A. Believe me, teachers who were not members of the League of

18 Communists were very few and far between. I should say that about 95 per

19 cent of them were members of the League of Communists.

20 Q. Thank you. On the eve of the armed conflict in Foca, on the 8th

21 of April, did you in the school, amongst yourselves, I mean the faculty

22 staff, did you notice any separation along ethnic lines?

23 A. No. You could never see anything like that in school, because in

24 our staffroom, we always repeated that one should not discuss that at

25 school, and that whoever had such a problem, whoever wanted to discuss it,

Page 7587













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Page 7588

1 well, we instructed them to leave it at the gate of the school before they

2 entered the school yard and the school building.

3 Q. So if I understand you well, the armed conflict in Foca, on the

4 8th of April, happened at a time when you were a teacher in the Veselin

5 Maslesa school; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Did you go to school on the 7th of April? Did you work on that

8 date?

9 A. I went to the school on the 8th of April too. But it is indeed a

10 wonder when weapons begin to clink and when parents begin to be afraid for

11 the children, then all children could not come; that is, some children did

12 come, but classes were not complete. So that both on the 7th and 8th of

13 April, we went back home; that is, we came to the school, had coffee in

14 the staffroom, and then went home because too few pupils had attended.

15 Q. On the 8th of April, so you went back home. When was it that you

16 went back home?

17 A. I was back before the shooting, because I had gone to the school

18 in the morning. Our classes began at 8.00, I had a cup of coffee, had a

19 chat with colleagues, and not all of the colleagues had turned up on the

20 8th of April. So we had our coffee and decided to go back home until

21 whatever. That is, that we decided that we would inform one another as to

22 when the classes would be resumed. So I was there at 8.00, had coffee, so

23 at 9.00 or quarter past or half past, I was back already.

24 Q. Thank you. And when you were back, tell me, whom did you find at

25 home?

Page 7589

1 A. Because the first door was the door to the coffee bar, I didn't go

2 home strictly speaking. I went to the coffee bar, and in the coffee bar,

3 I found my two sons and the waiter, three sons I found there. But

4 Dubravko, the one who was with the reserve police, he was called -- he was

5 summoned and he left shortly. But after me, my wife arrived, because they

6 also closed the bank. And there could have been one or two patrons; I

7 don't know.

8 Q. And when the gunfire started on the 8th of April, did you stay in

9 the house and how long did you stay there after the armed conflict

10 started?

11 A. The smell of gunpowder and the whistle of bullets naturally took

12 one by surprise, and at that moment, to put it simply, it did away with

13 all those thoughts, "Oh, no, the war would never happen. They wouldn't do

14 such a stupid thing in such an environment where people lived nicely and

15 well before." So I stayed at home. Where could I go but at home? At my

16 homestead acquired in the 1980s, or rather a bit earlier but especially

17 the 1980s because the house was built in 1980.

18 Q. We see that -- we saw here that your Serb neighbours left their

19 houses on the 8th or even prior to the 8th when the gunfire started. Why

20 did you stay then? And how long did you stay?

21 A. Well, when other people left, I don't know. They would be there

22 in the evening; they wouldn't be there in the morning. You just don't see

23 them. So presumably, they left in the evening or at night. But be that

24 as it may, we stayed because we hoped, we believed, we were confident, in

25 spite of the smell of gunpowder and clinking of weapons that it wouldn't

Page 7590

1 last long and that both sides - and when I say sides, I think you

2 understand whom I mean - that they would realise that it would be madness,

3 unnecessary, and that it would be -- that it will come to an end shortly.

4 So that we stayed at home, hoping that it would be over in no time at all

5 and that people would arrive at a normal conclusion, because I somehow

6 hoped that every man would somehow settle scores with oneself and

7 therefore do whatever he could do to see that -- to see -- to put an end

8 to this presently.

9 Q. But when did you leave your house nevertheless?

10 A. About two or three days later, when one realised that those talks

11 and something failed, we were forced, and in a very quick and strange way,

12 but I suppose fear had piled up during those two, three days, so that we

13 left the house in haste at a moment which suited us, and that was toward

14 the evening. Well, whether it was toward the evening or whether we saw

15 dark, and it was also foggy, because this is the Drina valley, which has

16 always been known for its fogs. And also, there were -- there was rain

17 and snow. So that we decided very quickly, because we hoped that these

18 operations would stop, but they didn't.

19 Q. And where did you go when you left your house?

20 A. Well, in the vicinity, right -- the right bank of the Cehotina,

21 and there was this waiter Nedeljko's car, so that we left the house, took

22 that car, and went to Cerezluk to my brother's, to later Sreta. When we

23 got there, we realised that they were in the cellar, so we also climbed

24 down to the cellar, because three or four days before that unfortunate

25 8th, his grandchild was born, and I think that child was born precisely on

Page 7591

1 the day of Bajram, and his daughter-in-law was a Muslim, and so when she

2 called him Sasa, I pulled her leg and said, "Why didn't you call him

3 Bajro?" And that is the kind of relation that we had with our Muslim

4 neighbours.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Is that a festival, and if so, what is its date?

6 Does it have a regular date?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us try to ask the witness

8 to explain to us.

9 Q. You said "Bajram". Is it a festival or what?

10 A. It is a Muslim holiday. They have two Bajrams, as far as I know,

11 in a year. This was Bajram, the Muslim holiday, which was celebrated and

12 it was -- I think it was on the 4th, because the child was born on the

13 4th, and subsequently I said, jokingly, "Well, let us know when the child

14 was born. Let us relate it to this traditional holiday." It had nothing

15 to do with the fact that his mother was a Muslim but

16 simply --

17 Q. This daughter-in-law who was a Muslim, she was the daughter-in-law

18 of your brother of the first blood?

19 A. Yes, and she was married to his younger son Nebojsa. And she came

20 from Gorazde.

21 Q. When you left your house, did you take some effects with you, some

22 clothes or something else?

23 A. Well, people say haste makes waste, and trust me, at that moment,

24 what occurred to us to take along was only what we practically had on, and

25 nothing else. And anyway, I mean, one hoped, "Well, right, a night or two

Page 7592













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Page 7593

1 we will spend them up there and come back home so why should we take along

2 anything?" So with all that haste, it simply never occurred to us to take

3 anything. I don't even know if we locked the house up.

4 Q. Did you all leave? Did all those who had been present there for

5 those two or three days, did they all leave and go to your brother's

6 house?

7 A. No, because we could not fit into this small Fica. I mean, this

8 car will take four, so that as far as I can remember -- that is I wanted

9 to stay with my -- and my wife last, but sons, our sons, would not let

10 us. So it was our eldest brother and the two of us and the driver, we

11 took that car. And then that car came back to fetch the second group,

12 because my son wouldn't let him go alone, as he was his brother-in-law,

13 rather his wife's brother, so that he also went back with him so that he

14 wouldn't go back alone, as you never knew what you might come across or up

15 against. But you know, it's not only that the negotiations failed but

16 that day, at that time, when we had to flee our house, one could see a

17 major influx of people from Donje Polje towards the health centre, and

18 next to the health centre was an abandoned school building from before,

19 and that is where those masses of people gathered, or rather at that time,

20 and to this day, we call them Green Berets, and we were afraid of a major

21 fight because the house was surrounded so there was nothing we could do

22 but flee.

23 Q. And whilst you were at your brother's --

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, the

25 accused needs to take his medicine.

Page 7594

1 Q. While you were at your brother's at Cerezluk, did your house

2 burn? And how did you find out about that, and when?

3 A. At that time, the house burned down and all our property, to our

4 great misfortune, because that could be seen well from the balcony up at

5 the house in Cerezluk. I think a day before that, the apartment buildings

6 that were above the road burned down, above the street that was called

7 Partizanski Put. Whether it was torched that day or not, I don't know.

8 But at any rate, that house burned down the next day as well. And all the

9 property that was accumulated over so many years, we all worked for that,

10 our entire family, my wife and I and the children, we took credits, et

11 cetera.

12 Q. Did you make any comments when you saw your house burning, when

13 you were watching that from your brother's terrace?

14 A. What happened happened. But my late mother and my late father

15 came to my mind, these honourable people who brought up their four

16 children in poverty and misery. And then I said, "Thank God it is the

17 house, not something else. May no one's house ever burn again. May this

18 fire and conflagration stop at that house and not be transferred to other

19 houses, other buildings."

20 Q. How long did you stay with your brother at Cerezluk; can you

21 remember?

22 A. Had you asked me a month later, perhaps I would have remembered.

23 However, after all this time and after all of this, and in view of the

24 place I'm at and the time I've spent here, it is hard to remember. But I

25 think that at Cerezluk we spent about a month, about a month. Because my

Page 7595

1 brother had a large family too, and also there was this little baby, and

2 we were staying in the basement because nobody dared stay upstairs. Fifty

3 per cent of the basement was underground. That is the kind of houses that

4 were built in those parts.

5 Q. You say that you were there for about a month. Where did you go

6 then?

7 A. Before moving away from Cerezluk, I stopped by at the hotel, at

8 the soup kitchen there to have lunch every now and then. I talked to the

9 manager there. I knew that refugees and displaced persons were being put

10 up at the hotel. We agreed that I should go to the municipality to ask

11 for accommodation at the hotel so that we could be transferred to the

12 hotel. So it is precisely to the hotel that we moved afterwards together

13 with the other refugees and displaced persons in Foca, because there were

14 other displaced persons in Foca, people who had remained homeless.

15 Q. You said that before moving to the hotel, to live there I mean,

16 you went to eat there at the soup kitchen. Did you go by yourself or did

17 somebody else come with you, any other family members?

18 A. While my son Bozidar was at the KP Dom, he would come. Sometimes

19 also my wife, who worked at the bank nearby, would stop by there to have

20 lunch as well, because we didn't want to be a burden to our nearest and

21 dearest. So sometimes all three of us would be there and eat together;

22 sometimes she would also join us and sometimes she wouldn't, because we

23 were considerate. It was not easy for them either. They had to feed

24 their own family. So we wanted to be the least possible burden to them.

25 Q. You explained to us when the war conflict broke out in Foca and

Page 7596

1 how long it lasted. In this period, from the 8th until the 18th of April,

2 did you participate in the war conflicts at all, in the fighting in Foca?

3 A. I claim to you with full responsibility that in that period of

4 time, and later during a long period of time, I never took part in this,

5 nor did anyone call me specifically, me personally, to participate in

6 that. And even if someone had, I would not have taken part in it, because

7 it was never my line of work to face my neighbours and close friends over

8 a gun barrel. I never did that, nor would I ever have done anything like

9 that.

10 Q. Were there calls for mobilisation at that time, and did you

11 respond to this callup?

12 A. In this part where I was during these first two or three days, it

13 was impossible to hear these calls, because after all, this belonged to

14 Donje Polje, and these loudspeakers, this vehicle probably did not go that

15 far. However, when we came to Cerezluk, up there you could hear it, you

16 could hear it better. And that did happen, that is to say, these calls.

17 Q. When did you respond to the mobilisation call, and did you respond

18 at all?

19 A. The loss of our house and property had to affect me. I'm a human

20 being. It is only natural that after everything I had been through -- and

21 also as I met with my brothers and neighbours in that area, one day the

22 children came and they said that they heard over the loudspeaker - this is

23 actually a hill which is perhaps about 50 metres away from my brother's

24 house - they were calling all men who did not have a war assignment to

25 report at the high school centre, to report for mobilisation there. This

Page 7597













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Page 7598

1 was around 12.00, so it was around noon. I put on my jacket, the one that

2 I had taken with me, and the rest I was wearing anyway. I went towards

3 the high school centre at Aladza.

4 Q. You said when you first started answering my question that the

5 loss of your house and property had upset you. Is that the reason why you

6 responded, or was it something else?

7 A. Perhaps there was a bit of everything. But I have to tell you

8 that that was in my very consciousness. Respecting the law, from day one

9 when I opted for this vocation, to be a teacher, the law had to be

10 observed, the law had to be abided by. So that affected me. A respect

11 for the law that prevailed until then and that was still in force, I went

12 to the mobilisation site at the high school.

13 Q. Who did you report to?

14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Krnojelac, I know that you are anxious to get

15 these answers out, but you really must pause. Keep watching that typing

16 here and wait for it to stop before you give your answer. That last

17 answer of yours came in quite a long time before the translation had

18 finished and, Mr. Bakrac, your question also came in long before the

19 translation had finished. So please, both of you, watch that pause. We

20 want to hear everything that is said and you are making it difficult.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. But you have

22 to understand, once I am criticised by you, I try to speed things up. The

23 answers are a bit lengthy and that is this constant fear I have, that I

24 shouldn't take up too much time, so perhaps that's the reason why this

25 happens.

Page 7599

1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, we are grateful to you and we have

2 certainly noticed that you are attempting to stop the witness from going

3 off into matters which are not so relevant. That last one wasn't,

4 though. But you proceed. We are grateful to you for trying.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, tell us, please, who did you report to at the high

7 school centre when you reported to this mobilisation site?

8 A. I came to the high school centre and I saw at two or three places

9 two or three men, respectively, standing there. In front of the entrance

10 into the high school centre, Mr. Radojica Mladjenovic saw me from the

11 window. He called out to me from the window and he said, "Milorad, please

12 come here." I walked into the hall. He was already standing at the door

13 of the room where that window was. And believe me, at the same moment he

14 handed me these papers, in that office.

15 Q. You say that he handed these papers over to you. What kind of

16 papers?

17 A. He handed me an order on which my name and surname were written,

18 and that I was being appointed temporary warden of the KP Dom with the

19 task of preserving property and starting up production, or to put it

20 better, to carry out preparations for starting up production wherever

21 possible within the work units that belonged to the KP Dom.

22 Q. Did he tell you all of this or is that what was written on that

23 piece of paper?

24 A. On the paper, there were perhaps two or three lines only. But

25 this is what he told me. He said that that was my task.

Page 7600

1 Q. Did you know Mr. Radojica Mladjenovic before that? And what did

2 he do?

3 A. I knew Radojica Mladjenovic from earlier on as a teacher. After

4 that I knew him as president of the executive committee of the municipal

5 assembly of Foca.

6 Q. At the point when he handed over this order to you, what post did

7 he hold?

8 A. At the moment when he handed this order to me and when he told me

9 what my duties were, he was president of the executive committee of the

10 municipal assembly of Foca, and that's what he was later too.

11 Q. When you got these orders from Mr. Mladjenovic, and when he told

12 you what your task was, what did you do then?

13 A. There were two other persons there, and they took me straight to a

14 car. They put me into the car and took me to the KP Dom.

15 Q. I do apologise, we shall continue with regard to where you went

16 further when you went to the KP Dom, but I would just like to know,

17 between Cerezluk and the high school centre, when you had set out to

18 report for mobilisation, did you encounter anyone? Did you meet anyone,

19 and if so, who?

20 A. On the way from Cerezluk to the high school centre, at the

21 Cehotina bridge, I met a vehicle that was going from the health centre

22 towards the municipality. This vehicle stopped at the bridge and they

23 asked me for some kind of interview, if that's what you can call it. They

24 simply wanted to talk to me. They asked me where I was going. I answered

25 the same thing that I told you just now, so I don't have to repeat it.

Page 7601

1 They asked me -- I think that's the way they asked me. They asked me

2 whether the people in this area were in favour of the war. I said to them

3 that, first of all, I was not in favour of the war, and I don't think that

4 the majority of the population was in favour of the war. However, to our

5 great regret and misfortune, when the party fell apart, that is to say the

6 League of Communists, nationalist parties were established and those who

7 are to be blamed for the war are the nationalist parties that were

8 established. And not only them, but I said also that the west is to be

9 blamed for that too. Perhaps you are going to condemn me for saying this,

10 but that's what it looked like to me. I thought that international forces

11 would not allow this small area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which consisted of

12 different ethnic groups, to be the venue of a civil war, and that all of

13 this would lead to such a catastrophe. They asked me what my name was,

14 and I said what my name was, and I said that I was just going for

15 mobilisation now and that my house had burned down a couple of days before

16 that, and that my name was Mico.

17 Q. The people you talked to, were they journalists?

18 A. They were journalists. I think that the vehicle was sort of a

19 nicer car, a better car, like a Peugeot. Journalists, foreign

20 journalists, I think. I don't know who they are. I wish I did know but I

21 don't know. At that moment, I don't know, there were three or four of

22 them in that car. This happened on the way from Cerezluk to the high

23 school centre.

24 Q. Were they taping that on a camera?

25 A. I did not see a camera. I can't remember seeing a camera, but

Page 7602













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Page 7603

1 there was a dictaphone or whatever you call this device, this little tape

2 recorder that was used for recording.

3 Q. When you set out from the high school centre to the KP Dom, did

4 you go straight to the KP Dom or did you stop somewhere on the way?

5 A. When we left the high school centre, we came to this same bridge

6 that led to the KP Dom. Right after the bridge, there was that road.

7 However, they moved towards the KP Dom immediately because I asked these

8 two men -- I said, "People, please, can you take me to Cerezluk first so I

9 tell my family where I am?" One of them said, "That's okay." They went

10 the other way towards Cerezluk. They took me to my brother's house and I

11 told them then, and Slavica as well, and I showed them this order that I

12 was being appointed temporary warden of the KP Dom. I came back into the

13 car and then we went to the KP Dom.

14 Q. Whose vehicle was this and did you know these two men?

15 A. I don't know whose vehicle it was. It was a white Lada. I knew

16 one of the two men a bit. I think his surname is Cicmil. I didn't know

17 the other man. However, later, I found out at the KP Dom where this other

18 man came from.

19 Q. Where did he come from?

20 A. Uzice.

21 Q. Did this white Lada have any signs on it?

22 A. Like most vehicles at the time, this white Lada had a sign on the

23 windshield on a piece of paper. It said "TO" in red and that meant

24 Territorial Defence. Maybe it meant something else, but for me it meant

25 the Territorial Defence.

Page 7604

1 Q. When you came to the KP Dom, who did you find there? Were there

2 any soldiers there?

3 A. As we were approaching the KP Dom, in that hall, there were three

4 or four men - soldiers, to put it more precisely - who had weapons, and

5 these two that I talked -- that I came with turned right in that hall

6 immediately, and the first office that you can see on the left, that's

7 where they put me. They asked me whether I wanted a cup of coffee, and I

8 said yes. "Would you like a drink?" "Yes," I said. They prepared some

9 coffee for me. They brought me a drink. We sat there. And there was a

10 window facing the compound. There was the window in that room, that is.

11 And I saw that there were some men in that compound, in that yard. I

12 asked them, "Men, who is this in the compound?" And they said to me that

13 these were persons who were brought into custody and who were staying at

14 the prison. "Am I also detained, then?" I asked. And they said, "No,

15 you're not detained. But we have put you in here." They said, "You have

16 a piece of paper saying that you are appointed temporary warden." And

17 this one man from Uzice took this piece of paper and read it out. Believe

18 me, I don't even know whether he ever gave it back to me. Maybe he did;

19 maybe he didn't. I don't remember the paper after that. "And now, why

20 were these people detained?" And he said, "They are Muslims." "And I

21 have come here to be warden?" And they were present there. And he said,

22 "Well, you heard the president of the executive committee. You are here

23 in order to safeguard this property, and there is quite a bit of damage

24 and repairs have to be carried out." And I said, "Gentlemen, I cannot

25 take this kind of duty upon myself. So I would like to talk to

Page 7605

1 Mr. Mladjenovic once again."

2 Q. So did you go to see Mr. Mladjenovic again?

3 A. No, not on that day. It was not made possible for me. I spent

4 the entire night there as well. So the next day in the morning, perhaps

5 it was around 8.00, this -- this man from Uzice -- one of these men from

6 Uzice came and said that I could go to Mr. Miladjenovic's. "Where is he?"

7 I asked. "He's at the municipality," he said, "at the municipal assembly

8 of Foca." So already on the 19th in the morning, I went to see him.

9 Q. And when you went to see Mr. Mladjenovic, to tell him that, what

10 did you say, in fact, and what did -- what was his answer?

11 A. He saw that I was in a bad mood, that I haven't slept much, and

12 all that, and all I said was, "Well, President, are you putting Milorad

13 Krnojelac in jail?" And he looked at me and said, "You're not in jail.

14 Why did you spend the night there?" I suppose that one had told him over

15 the phone that I had spent the night in the KP Dom, that they wouldn't let

16 me get out. "You are assigned to that office, and you must have, I guess,

17 noticed that those were not our people, that this was a unit from Uzice,

18 and that we had, at the cost of our lives, preserve -- every minute is

19 precious, that we must preserve the property and take care of the KP Dom

20 property." And I answered that I could not do that, do it under those

21 conditions. "All the conditions will be provided, you'll have all the

22 necessary material, and I shall see to it that you have people who will

23 help you to first protect it and then to start repairing the rest of the

24 damage." Now, naturally, he then convinced me that he was right, and that

25 I could do it, and that I would have no -- no -- nothing to do whatsoever

Page 7606

1 with people detained there of the Muslim or Croat ethnicity, but there

2 were also some detainees of Serb ethnicity as well. And naturally, I

3 accepted it then. And whether I returned the same day, I don't know. I

4 think I did. I think I went back there that same day, had a look at

5 certain things, and that they were horrible to look at.

6 Q. Well, could you have refused?

7 A. Yes, I could have, but then to stay in the KP Dom in jail like

8 everybody else. Laws have to be respected, and I'm positive that he was

9 perfectly capable of calling in the military police, because under the

10 National Defence Act, orders must be carried out, and after they had been

11 carried out, of course, you may complain.

12 Q. If I understand you well, you are referring to the legal

13 provisions applying to the state of war.

14 A. The legal provisions, as far as I know, that applied before also

15 applied later on, or maybe throughout the war, as for the all-national

16 defence.

17 Q. When you were mobilised, when you had to go to the secondary

18 school centre and then on to KP Dom, what kind of clothes did you have at

19 that time?

20 A. Well, I said that all our property and the house had burned down,

21 so I naturally went there in what I had on when I went out of the KP Dom,

22 that is, civilian clothes that I had on me when we fled from our house.

23 Q. You answered one of my earlier questions that you returned to the

24 KP Dom probably that same day after the meeting with Radojica Mladjenovic,

25 and that you saw some horrible things in the KP Dom. What did you mean by

Page 7607













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Page 7608

1 that?

2 A. The KP Dom, at least at first glance and later on, it was a proper

3 wartime grave. Doors, gates, furniture, it was all totally chaotic,

4 thrown around, broken, destroyed. Plaster which fell off in some rooms,

5 which had been hit by either fragments of shells or shells or bullets.

6 Glass broken under your feet. No place to put your foot. Glass panes on

7 the furniture store, which is large and thick, that is, large panes, 2.2

8 metres square. It was all destroyed and it was all in a total mess. So

9 that that first day, I think I managed to put back only one front gate.

10 Q. You said that you arrived in the KP Dom in civilian clothes. Did

11 you go to the KP Dom later on in a uniform? If you did, where did you get

12 that uniform from? And was it only a uniform or something else?

13 A. Well, when you find yourself in a situation that I found myself

14 in, you come out in the worst that one had, because in the house, of

15 course, you wear all the worst things that you have, your worst trousers,

16 your worst shirt, your worst sweater. What else can such a man do but put

17 on whatever he can? Adjust to himself regardless of the type of clothes.

18 Gentlemen, when I appeared before this honourable court, to my

19 distress I appeared in my sweatsuit, in my tracksuit, because I had

20 nothing else, because that was the only thing I had. I simply wore

21 whatever I could lay my hands on without going out without any clothes.

22 Because had I come out without any clothes, of course you know what would

23 have happened, and what kind of a solution would that have been? It would

24 have made no sense.

25 So I found to combine some things, some army uniforms, because

Page 7609

1 they went up there to the depot and were issued with them. And then in

2 the KP Dom, I also found odd pieces of clothing that the guards used to

3 wear before. Something, a blue jacket, which was just a blue summer

4 jacket, but it was blue so it looked like a uniform. But I never went to

5 the depot to ask for any special uniform or anything special to be given

6 and to wear.

7 Q. And that uniform which at times -- these odd parts of uniforms

8 that you wore at times in the KP Dom, were there any rank patches?

9 A. No. They never put any rank patches on it, nor were there any

10 ranks. It was something -- you could see it was made of slightly a better

11 fabric. But there were no rank patches, nor were those ranks -- nor did I

12 need those rank patches any more.

13 Q. How often did you wear this uniform to the KP Dom?

14 A. Whenever I had to. Whenever I could change the uniform or,

15 rather, my clothes so that it could be prepared for the next day when I

16 had to go to the KP Dom or elsewhere, I had to wear what I had.

17 Q. When you say "to go elsewhere," if I understand you, you mean

18 Yugoslavia or Montenegro; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, it is. Quite so.

20 Q. And you had to go there wearing civilian clothes, didn't you?

21 A. I always had to wear civilian clothes when I went there.

22 Q. Did you ever carry any weapons in the KP Dom?

23 A. I have already told you that I never had any weapons, either

24 personally, nor did I carry any weapons around the KP Dom. And believe

25 me, even during the exercises, whenever I could leave it aside or push it

Page 7610

1 aside, if I was sure that no inspection would come about, I would do

2 that. I have absolutely nothing to do with weapons. If you ask me, I'd

3 burn all the weapons. I wouldn't make toy weapons because they can be

4 heard. I would make only tools and appliances from these scrap weapons.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. You told us that in the KP Dom you found an army

6 unit which came from elsewhere, which had come from Uzice. How long did

7 they stay in the KP Dom, and what was the relationship between you?

8 A. As far as I can remember, it was about 20 men strong and they

9 stayed for -- well, I'm not quite sure, but until sometime in May.

10 Perhaps a few days of May. Perhaps for a week; perhaps five days. That's

11 how long they stayed.

12 There was no cooperation between us. As regards cooperation, as

13 regards the relationship, their attitude to me changed completely as of

14 the day when I had gone, on the 19th, to Mr. Mladjenovic. Except that at

15 times, with one or the other, we would again have a cup of coffee in the

16 coffee bar, in the canteen. But they stopped treating me haughtily or

17 arrogantly as they did on the 18th, when I went there first.

18 Q. Do you remember, how long did they stay at the KP Dom?

19 A. Well, they stayed there, I don't know whether it was the 5th of

20 May or the 10th of May, but they stayed -- I mean, as a unit, I'd say

21 until about the 10th of May. I'm not sure. Perhaps less; perhaps more.

22 I'm not sure.

23 Q. And meanwhile, that is, until the 10th of May or so, did they

24 bring in any persons of Muslim ethnicity or any other persons to the KP

25 Dom?

Page 7611

1 A. I could not see that because most of the time I spent in the

2 interior of the administration building, unless/except when, perhaps, as I

3 would be crossing the passage to the toilet, perhaps somebody might have

4 been brought in at that moment. But I do not recollect that any persons

5 were brought in at such times to the KP Dom, which does not mean that they

6 were not. But I am telling you that I was in this right part, this right

7 wing of the administration building, to the right of that passage. Except

8 that on one occasion I saw Mr. [redacted] as he was passing through that

9 passage. He was my neighbour.

10 Q. Do you mean [redacted]? Did you see him in the passage only, or

11 did he come to your office?

12 A. I saw him in passing only on that occasion. But later on we

13 communicated, because he was in one of those rooms on the ground floor.

14 And apart from that, there was another, if I may put it that way. I had a

15 plea, a humane plea to these men from Uzice to allow Mr. [redacted] to go and

16 visit his uncle who lived among us, because he lived in the same -- on the

17 same street with me, across the street from me.

18 Q. And this plea, this request of [redacted]'s and yours, were you

19 granted your wish?

20 A. Well, after a brief argument, yes, it was granted. And my son

21 also went with them because he knew where that man lived. And even that

22 man from Uzice sat next to [redacted] because they were afraid he might escape,

23 but I said, "Oh, no, he is not going to escape, because he wants to see

24 his uncle." So that, yes, he did go. Yes, that was resolved.

25 Q. From the 19th of April, when you began carrying out your duties in

Page 7612













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7613

1 the KP Dom, from that date on, did former employees of the KP Dom begin to

2 come back under their labour duty?

3 A. I have already said that Mr. Mladjenovic had told me, if I told

4 you, that is, that he would do his utmost to provide me in some way with

5 manpower who would help me with all that, because he was obviously -- he

6 was obviously quite aware of the fact that it couldn't only be Milorad's

7 back who would do it. So until the 22nd, or rather until the end of

8 April, the staff began to come back slowly to the KP Dom, some for --

9 along a certain line and other people following a different line.

10 Q. You say that Mr. Mladjenovic told you and that you absolutely did

11 not communicate with the detainees of Muslim ethnicity, or you explained

12 to us what your task was there. You don't have to repeat that. But what

13 did you do in the KP Dom at that time? What was your job there?

14 A. When I said that I first had to make a round to inspect the

15 situation, to wait for people to come, then the most important thing was,

16 and in agreement with those individual men who were arriving one by one,

17 then the first thing to do was to make - well, how to call it - not

18 actually a project but to make a list, to take stock of every -- of all

19 that had been destroyed in the building and of all the property that was

20 in that establishment. But sometime toward the end of April, I went to

21 Mr. Mladjenovic again, and I wasn't happy about it at all, that is that

22 those men were being detained in the KP Dom, and I asked him to find some

23 solution and some information, what to do and how to do it, because I

24 don't know if you will understand what I mean but you should understand

25 really, a teacher, even if he built his house or something, he couldn't

Page 7614

1 even look at it or think that it was possible to solve it. So I sought

2 his advice as to what and how to do it, because I said, "I cannot really

3 put the KP Dom right if we have persons detained in the building. And I

4 do not want anyone saying the next day that I was in their way or that I'm

5 their superior." And he said, "Well, Milorad, this will all be resolved

6 in a couple of days, but I'll try to solve it all so that you have nothing

7 to do with it." And I believed him.

8 Q. As regards to this reconstruction, the repairs, did you set up a

9 commission or something?

10 A. Yes. A commission was set up, in agreement with those men who had

11 come in the early days, a commission was set up immediately, to take stock

12 of the degree of destruction of the KP Dom and the property in the KP

13 Dom. And the work began in the end of April, but it took quite some time

14 because one couldn't do it in a day or two, because, after all, it is a

15 vast complex and one had to go around and really note down everything that

16 had been destroyed and do it in writing because we didn't have a camera or

17 photographic camera to record it that way. That would have been the best

18 way, but ...

19 Q. You say that a commission was set up. Were -- members of the

20 commission, were they people who had been former employees of the KP Dom?

21 What offices did they discharge in the KP Dom?

22 A. The KP Dom was an establishment which wouldn't employ just

23 anyone. Those were people who had been vetted, selected, both in terms of

24 quality and in terms of their human traits and human quality. So Bozo

25 Drakul, Micun Jokanovic, and Mr. Milan Vujovic and others who had come to

Page 7615

1 the KP Dom, in agreement with them that the commission was necessary, so I

2 assigned those men to help and do as much as they could, and besides, as

3 people came to discharge their labour duty in the KP Dom from heads of

4 various work units, I also wanted them to be present when their units were

5 being inventorised, that is furniture factory, metal-working shop, and so

6 on and so forth. So that a record was drawn and it was -- and it really

7 reflected the factual state. And it also looked as if it had been in war

8 because we had the wartime situation reflected in this record, and this

9 record showed everything that had been destroyed, and there has been a lot

10 of destruction.

11 Q. You said that heads of these organising units, work units, had

12 gathered. Did they all return to discharge their labour duty before the

13 end of April?

14 A. Yes, I think so. I think that all of them came back. Yes, I

15 think so. I think they all were there by the end of April, because

16 otherwise one couldn't simply take their inventory in their work units

17 without them. They knew best what had been destroyed, what had gone

18 missing, and so on and so forth.

19 Q. Tell me, as persons of Muslim ethnicity were still there, who

20 guarded them? Who looked after them? Who was responsible for that?

21 A. Well, while that Uzice unit was there, they took care and

22 everything regarding those persons detained in the KP Dom. After them, a

23 platoon came, made of this -- from the so-called Livade Company, so that

24 they began to take care of those people who had been taken in in the KP

25 Dom.

Page 7616

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a

2 convenient time to adjourn.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We'll resume at 2.30.

4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.






















Page 7617













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7618

1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, before the lunch break, we were talking about

5 volunteers from Uzice who were leaving, and the Livade company was coming

6 in. Before the Livade company came in, was there any kind of deal,

7 contract, whatever, with the military commander, with the military in

8 general? And when did it actually take place?

9 A. I don't know if I understood the question correctly. There is

10 another thing I want to say and I don't know whether I put it rightly,

11 concerning the information that Mr. Mladjenovic gave me. So with the

12 permission of the Honourable Trial Chamber, I would like to explain this a

13 bit.

14 He explained to me that I was supposed to be the warden, the

15 temporary warden of the KP Dom, but that I'm responsible for property and

16 for the economic part of the KP Dom. When this unit from Uzice was

17 leaving and when this platoon of the Livade company was coming in, he said

18 that he would try in every conceivable way to have this resolved so that I

19 could fully do my job, which had to do with the economic part.

20 He did not tell me exactly how he would try to do this. However,

21 a letter came I think from the Crisis Staff that the military command

22 should be given part of the KP Dom, where persons who were serving their

23 pre-war sentences were staying.

24 I cannot remember whether I personally went to see him or whether

25 I talked to him on the phone. I said, "What have you done again? They're

Page 7619

1 still staying here." But he said to me, "Well, Milorad, is there any

2 better place for them than the KP Dom? And you have nothing to do with

3 these people, because the area where they are staying," referring to the

4 persons who were serving their sentences from before the war, "that is the

5 best for the persons who are being brought into the KP Dom and who are

6 being detained there."

7 So of course I accepted this and I agreed with their request that

8 that part of the KP Dom should be given for the accommodation of detained

9 persons, in that part of the KP Dom, that is.

10 Q. When you say that then the Livade company took over the security,

11 were these soldiers of the army of Republika Srpska or were these local

12 soldiers? Did it consist of locals?

13 A. Since I did not know all of these people -- well, as soon as

14 somebody starts wearing a uniform and -- actually, the very name, "Livade

15 company," it has to do with an area outside the town of Foca called

16 Livade, and these were persons from the municipality of Foca. However, in

17 that platoon, as far as I managed to find out later, and I also recognised

18 some of them, there were a few policemen there who before worked on the

19 security provided for the persons detained at the KP Dom.

20 Q. That's just what I wanted to ask you now. In the meantime -- in

21 the meantime, as for the security of these detained persons, did policemen

22 or guards who had worked at the KP Dom before start coming in as well?

23 A. Loudspeakers all over town were announcing that persons who were

24 employed in various institutions before, and who had not had any

25 assignments until then, or those who were assigned before the war to work

Page 7620

1 but had worked in the economy, should report to those places where they

2 were assigned. So all of those who heard that or who found out about that

3 or who could come immediately, gradually started coming to the KP Dom,

4 just like to other enterprises and institutions. That was already the end

5 of the month of April.

6 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, if you know, please tell us who gave decisions

7 concerning their work obligation to these guards who were previously

8 employed at the KP Dom?

9 A. I did not see who gave these decisions to them, but some of them

10 told me that it was the Ministry of Defence that had given them these

11 decisions for those who were of military age and able-bodied. As for the

12 other group of persons who were not able-bodied, they were given these

13 decisions that had to do with the so-called work obligation. These

14 decisions that were issued in respect of work obligation at the KP Dom in

15 Foca are documents I had the opportunity of seeing myself.

16 Q. You said that on the 18th, you got from Radojica Mladjenovic,

17 President of the executive council, this kind of work obligation. Do you

18 know where the previous warden of the KP Dom, Mr. Radojica Tesovic, was at

19 that time?

20 A. When I came to the KP Dom, I did not know where Mr. Radojica

21 Tesovic was, but I said that, later, certain individuals started coming in

22 for work obligation, those who were assigned such work obligation, and

23 also when talking to them, I found out that Mr. Radojica Tesovic was at

24 that time away on a trip. He was absent from the KP Dom.

25 Q. Do you know, and was it known at that time, whether Mr. Tesovic

Page 7621

1 would return to Foca at all?

2 A. That time I did not know about that, but I thought about it, since

3 orders were given to me regarding my being temporary warden of the KP Dom

4 and the economic -- of the economic part, that is, and that I would be

5 doing that only for a few days and that he would take over the KP Dom when

6 he came back.

7 Q. Do you know when Mr. Radojica Tesovic returned to Foca and when he

8 returned to the KP Dom, if at all?

9 A. When in respect of the previous question, I was giving answers

10 about that commission which made inventories, I have to tell you that it

11 was only then that, when I worked with these members of the commission, I

12 found out certain things; namely, that before the war, there was a part of

13 the KP Dom where there were detained persons and another part of the KP

14 Dom where there was economic activity. This belonged to the Drina

15 Economic Unit. I, as a teacher, did not even know about that before I

16 came there and before I talked to these people who taught me such a lot as

17 to what was what and where. At this farm, although you cannot really call

18 it a farm, it's not a big farm with somewhat lesser capacities in

19 comparison to other bigger agricultural companies and farms, I found out

20 from Novica Mojevic, the late Novica Mojevic, the manager there, that

21 Mr. Radojica Tesovic returned sometime, as far as I can remember, towards

22 the end of May, that he -- and he went to the farm and stayed there.

23 Q. You said that you found out that there was a part that was called

24 the Drina Economic Unit. Do you know who the director of this Drina

25 Economic Unit was within the KP Dom before the war broke out?

Page 7622













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7623

1 A. I said a few minutes ago that I did not know much about the KP

2 Dom. I just knew that the KP Dom was an institution, and I knew who it

3 belonged to, and I knew that it had all the good positions that an

4 institution should have. I'm sorry, please put this question to me

5 again.

6 Q. Do you know who, before the war broke out, was the director of the

7 Drina Economic Unit?

8 A. I did not know. Even when I had my interview with the Office of

9 the Prosecutor, I said that I did not know, but I heard this from the

10 witnesses and from the workers from the KP Dom, who the director of the

11 Drina Economic Unit was. I thought --

12 Q. This former director, was he in Foca on the 18th of April, or did

13 he also leave Foca? Do you know about that?

14 A. I don't know whether he was in Foca but he was not at the KP Dom,

15 nor did he come there.

16 Q. You said that your task was, first, when you came there, to repair

17 all the damages done and to make an inventory of the property there.

18 With the assistance of the usher, I would like to show a document

19 to you, ID D80. Could you please look at this document and tell us

20 whether this is a document that you compiled yourself. And what does it

21 pertain to?

22 JUDGE HUNT: I hope, Mr. Bakrac, that we're not going to have to

23 wait while the witness reads each of these. You've had a week to get

24 ready for this. I thought this was the sort of thing that you'd take him

25 through.

Page 7624

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I'll try to go

2 through the documents as fast as possible.

3 A. I am quite familiar with this document. When we were ascertaining

4 the damage on various buildings, and there were no materials at the KP

5 Dom, I had to address the executive committee of the municipal assembly to

6 ask for this metal sheeting. And it was only Maglic that had this kind of

7 metal sheeting.

8 Q. Is the signature on this document yours?

9 A. Yes. "V.D., Krnojelac".

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like

11 the document marked ID D80 to be admitted into evidence, please.

12 MS. KUO: No objection.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. That will be Exhibit D80.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I'm going to show you two other documents, but I

16 would like to ask you to take a look at them so that we don't have to read

17 them and so that we could move through them faster, that is, document ID

18 D81.

19 A. Gentlemen, if you tell me not to read this, then I don't know what

20 it's all about. I have to take a look at it and read it a bit.

21 Q. This is a letter to the police station in Foca which has to do

22 with reporting some vehicles from the rolling stock of the KP Dom that

23 were missing. Are you familiar with this document?

24 A. I believe that this was not the only case where letters were sent

25 in respect of automobiles. There must have been other letters sent to the

Page 7625

1 police station with regard to vehicles that went missing.

2 Q. If you look at this document, sir, you will see that it was not

3 signed. Can you explain this to us? Why was it not signed?

4 A. You know what? Since Milorad Krnojelac could not be in two places

5 at the same time, this was done by the person who was in charge of

6 transportation. It is possible that he typed it out and sent it without

7 my signature, because it was important only for the police station to be

8 informed that these vehicles were missing. And they knew about this.

9 This is not the only such document. Other documents of that kind were

10 sent to them too. They were quite familiar with which vehicles were

11 missing. We informed them so that they could somehow restore this

12 property to the KP Dom or, rather, the vehicles that could be found.

13 Q. There is a signature here of the person who received this

14 document. Do you know, perhaps, who this person is?

15 A. Most probably -- actually, not most probably, but certainly this

16 was received by the person on duty at the police station. It's something

17 like Dostic or something.

18 Q. Don't make any assumptions. Only if you know.

19 A. I'm not sure. But I'm sure this was received at the police

20 station, at the duty office there, right by the entrance of the police

21 station. That is where all mail is handed in, everything that goes to

22 them.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like

24 to move that the document, ID D81, be admitted into evidence, please.

25 A. The date is the 7th of May so ...

Page 7626

1 MS. KUO: No objection.

2 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit D81.

3 Are there English translations to all of these?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I do apologise.

5 There are English translations that are marked A; the ID number and then

6 the letter A.

7 JUDGE HUNT: We'll just take that automatically, then, unless you

8 tell us to the contrary. There will also be Exhibit D80A and Exhibit

9 D81A.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Sir, please look at this document now, the one marked ID D82. The

12 date is the 8th of May, 1992. In order to shorten matters, again, this is

13 a letter to the police station, the Serb police station, where it is being

14 asked to have one passenger vehicle allocated for the needs of the KP Dom,

15 Foca, et cetera. Is this your signature, and do you remember drawing up

16 this document?

17 A. This is my signature, again the acting warden. On the basis of

18 the report sent to the police station, and also I had my son there on the

19 reserve force. He told me that there was such a possibility, that they

20 had some vehicles there. Since they cannot find these documents of the KP

21 Dom that were missing, that the KP Dom did not have any small passenger

22 car, but that it would be possible for them to allocate some vehicle to me

23 if I submitted a request. That's exactly what I did.

24 Immediately, I submitted a request to the police station for the

25 allocation of a vehicle, only to have this vehicle used around town, for

Page 7627













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7628

1 trips to the farm, to Maglic, et cetera, so that I could go around town

2 on -- so that I could go around town. I couldn't really go around on foot

3 all the time, an old man, over 50. I must say that they accommodated me,

4 that they sent me a vehicle immediately.

5 Q. Which vehicle was this?

6 A. I would have preferred a smaller vehicle, but there wasn't a good

7 one, so that I got a red Yugo, which I used later for meeting my own

8 needs. When there was not enough fuel, of course, then you just had to

9 walk around.

10 Q. You said for your personal needs.

11 A. No. Well, not that --

12 JUDGE HUNT: You're only encouraging him by doing it yourself.

13 Please wait until the translation is finished. Both of you, particularly

14 the accused, is speaking very quickly and you are making it very

15 difficult.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise. I'm

17 just trying to prevent you from falling asleep by everything that we are

18 saying, and I want us to move as fast as we can.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I can assure you that we are not falling asleep,

20 especially with a camera on us all the time.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, please, both you and I have been cautioned about

23 this. I shall make an effort and you please make an effort. Pause after

24 my question so that everything can be interpreted properly.

25 Just tell me, did you get a vehicle on the basis of this request?

Page 7629

1 Or, rather, you already gave us an answer to that question but you said

2 for your needs. Was it for your personal needs or for the needs of the KP

3 Dom? And now wait for the translation, please.

4 A. I do apologise. I was reading the document so I wasn't looking at

5 this screen. But not in a single case, especially not with respect to an

6 institution like the police station, I could not get such a vehicle,

7 although perhaps I put it that way, for my own needs. This was for the

8 needs of the economic sector of the KP Dom. Because one had to go to the

9 farm, one had to go to Brod and to other places, and that's why this was

10 allocated, for the internal use of the KP Dom, but not for other purposes.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like

12 to have document ID D82 be admitted into evidence together with the

13 translation, ID D82A.

14 MS. KUO: No objection.

15 JUDGE HUNT: They will be Exhibits D82 and D82A.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you said to us that part of the KP Dom was given to

18 the army for the detention of detained persons of Muslim ethnicity. Was

19 it the duty of the military to feed these persons?

20 A. The KP Dom, or rather I, as - to put it more precisely - the

21 director, call me what you want, director, manager, warden, beggar, of the

22 KP Dom, I only rented out premises for the detention of detained persons.

23 It was the military command that took care of everything else. When I say

24 "everything else," that means that it was the duty of the army to feed

25 them, to provide security for them, et cetera.

Page 7630

1 Q. Did the army provide food for those people? Did you issue, for

2 the purpose, what was the property of the KP Dom, to feed those persons?

3 A. The army gave food for those people, but I, or rather the Drina

4 Economic Unit, also provided some, as much as it could, and as much as it

5 had.

6 Q. You say that the Drina Economic Unit gave as much as it could and

7 had. Was it from its own stocks, from its own warehouse?

8 A. One could say, but don't -- that it also gave it out from its own

9 stocks and its own warehouse, even though it was not duty-bound to do

10 that, and the same applies to all the other auxiliary material and all the

11 rest.

12 Q. Did you write to the army or request that they fulfil their

13 obligation and feed those persons?

14 A. Not only did I request this from the army, or I'd say to the

15 command of the rear, not only did I call them, I also called other places

16 with the same request, to other institutions.

17 Q. Did you also turn to the Red Cross to ask them to help you out,

18 not only with regard to the convicts serving their time from before the

19 war, but also for these detainees?

20 A. Well, yes, I told you other institutions, so that includes the Red

21 Cross, and even that office for refugees and displaced persons, and

22 individual companies in Foca that fared better than others at the time and

23 to other -- and to others, too.

24 Q. And why did you do that, if the army was duty-bound to, among

25 other things, feed the detainees of Muslim ethnicity?

Page 7631

1 A. I do not want to sound as if I were underestimating the Honourable

2 Court, but maybe this is why I'm here now. I did it because when at times

3 communicating with those persons, I found out - and sometimes it was from

4 people responsible for the warehouse, and also at times from the head of

5 the kitchen - that certain quantities, that the required quantities of

6 food were not getting there, those that were intended for the detainees,

7 so it was my humane attitude that made me turn to these persons, and also

8 because the workers employed in the Drina Economic Unit also had their

9 meals in that same canteen, that is the same place where the other ones

10 also received their meals.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher to

12 help me to show the witness document ID D87.

13 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, not to waste too much time, I will tell you, this

14 document has to do with a request to the executive board of the municipal

15 assembly of Foca to approve the foodstuffs and toiletries for the convicts

16 in the KP Dom serving their term, and it is signed, "Warden, Milorad

17 Krnojelac" and signature. Is that your signature?

18 A. It is, my official signature registered with the public auditing

19 service.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence should like

21 to tender the document ID D87 and its translation, 87A.

22 MS. KUO: No objection.

23 JUDGE HUNT: They will be Exhibits D87 and D87A.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Now, could the usher please help me to show you a document marked

Page 7632













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7633

1 ID D105? It is a document addressed to the technical group in Foca, then

2 the assistant rear commander and the executive board of Foca, and there

3 you again ask for assistance, not only with regard to persons serving

4 their terms after final judgements but also where you ask for help for

5 detainees incarcerated by the military authorities. It says so in the

6 text so let's not waste too much time.

7 Is it your signature on this document, and do you remember writing

8 this document?

9 A. Well, the signature is, in any case, mine, and yes, I wrote this

10 document.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence should like

12 to tender into evidence document ID D105 and its translation, ID D105A.

13 MS. KUO: No objection.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Exhibits D105 and 105A.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With the usher's help, I should like

16 also to show the document ID D106.

17 Q. Is that a request addressed to the Red Cross which you wrote, and

18 is that your signature on the document?

19 A. It is. But before this request, I personally talked with the Red

20 Cross representative. Whether fortunately or not, it was a person who had

21 been my pupil, and she promised that she would give us about a hundred

22 packages, parcels. But I wrote 130 just in case, so as to improve the

23 situation, because she told me that these packages contained both

24 toiletries and some foodstuffs, so on and so forth.

25 I can tell you that I did not get these parcels because at that

Page 7634

1 time a number of persons, displaced refugees, people who had come to the

2 town of Foca, a large number of them had been registered there so that she

3 could not give it to me. But later on she gave me some other items, and

4 they were just as useful to feed the detainees.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence should like

6 to tender the document ID D106 and its translation, ID D106A.

7 MS. KUO: No objection.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Exhibits D106 and 106A.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Now, will you please look at the document marked ID D107. This is

11 a document addressed to the Foca garrison. There you say or, rather, it

12 is said there, on the basis of the contract on placing the KP Dom offices

13 available for the accommodation of detainees, and you requested that the

14 army approved the issue of such and such foodstuffs on the basis of the

15 lease contract. Does this document bear your signature, and are you

16 familiar with the document? Did you write it?

17 A. I did. No, I do not think this is the only document of this

18 kind. There must have been at least one or two more of this nature.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. The Defence

20 should like to tender the document ID D107 and 107A.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection?

22 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Exhibits D107 and 107A.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. So you said that it was the army's duty to feed the detainees on

Page 7635

1 the basis of the lease contract, but that some of the toiletries and

2 foodstuffs were provided by you at the KP Dom. What you provided for the

3 toiletries and food of the detainees, did you send an invoice for all this

4 to the army?

5 A. There was an earlier obligation whilst there was -- in peacetime

6 that the KP Dom should be able to dispose of certain quantities of reserve

7 stocks. So I did that, but I do not know whether the administration sent

8 out those invoices. I know that Mr. Bozo Drakul discussed it. Whether

9 such invoices had been sent or whether it was solved in some other way, I

10 do not know. What I wanted was that the people detained in the KP Dom

11 have enough food and toiletries. But I do not know whether such an

12 invoice was made out and sent. I simply cannot remember whether this was

13 done or not.

14 Q. Tell me, sir, when did you learn about this duty of the KP Dom to

15 the army regarding the stocks?

16 A. I cannot remember the day or the month. But I know that on one

17 occasion, two army officers came and requested -- and for me it was

18 really, I don't know how to explain it, they wanted, I don't know,

19 incredible quantities of meat and fish and a credit. And since I didn't

20 know anything about the KP Dom, I said to them that they ought to talk to

21 people who had worked in the KP Dom before.

22 But that day, Mr. Drakul -- or, rather, not only that day, but

23 Mr. Drakul had been absent for several days, because he was also on guard

24 duty, and we agreed that they should come some other day when he returned

25 from guard duty.

Page 7636

1 Meanwhile, during the conversation, they asked me, "So how are

2 things in the KP Dom? And now is there any production going on? Is there

3 anything here?" And I told them that there was some little production or,

4 rather, that some small quantities of products were being finished, and I

5 also mentioned furniture. That was a big mistake on my part, or at least

6 that is what I thought at the time, because this man said, "Well, can we

7 have a look at this furniture?"

8 So we went to the furniture factory and he said, "Well, you're not

9 doing anything. You don't have anything." "Well, we have it down there

10 in the cellar." So we went to that basement and he saw the furniture and

11 he said, "Oh, aren't you rich with all these stocks." It just looked too

12 much to him. And I thought that since there were no pigs and since there

13 were no fish, that they would take this away, that they just clean it all

14 and that I'd have to report to the ministry about that.

15 But the next time they came, Bozo talked with them and Bozo

16 explained. So they went to the farm and saw what there was and agreed

17 that in some way, or in some ways, that somehow it shall be settled as far

18 as possible, because they had also been informed that the fish pond at

19 Jelec, which belonged to the Drina Economic Unit, business unit, had

20 already been damaged in part and destroyed.

21 So that they created this atmosphere amongst themselves, how and

22 what should be settled; that is, how the balance should be struck. And

23 later on it was also accepted by the Ministry of Justice.

24 Q. I was about to ask you, because you mentioned, you said you

25 reported to the ministry and I wanted to ask you what ministry. But you

Page 7637













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7638

1 said, you mentioned the Ministry of Justice, is it?

2 A. Yes, the Ministry of Justice, I think. Yes, Ministry of Justice.

3 Q. When were you appointed, by the Ministry of Justice, the warden of

4 the KP Dom?

5 A. Well, rather the manager of the business unit. But due to some

6 other circumstances, you could say both warden and manager and beggar. I

7 was appointed before I was issued the paper. I believe that it was in

8 August, and I received this document on my appointment and I started

9 working in July of 1992.

10 Q. Tell me, was it a civilian or a military function?

11 A. Then and now and forever, it was a civilian function for me,

12 because justice is a civilian institution. And it was that ministry which

13 appointed me to that office.

14 Q. You said that it was the Ministry of Justice which appointed you

15 to that office. But apart from that business unit, were you also

16 responsible for something else; that is, were you also responsible for

17 some other persons in the KP Dom? And who were those persons?

18 A. I don't think I will forget, but let me be very clear and say

19 about this decree, there was this explanation which was given me once by

20 the minister: "Milorad, you are also responsible for persons who are

21 serving their terms in the penitentiary, and you are responsible for the

22 economy, for business. So under our rules, you are the warden of the KP

23 Dom, except that you also need an authorisation for this and a

24 certificate. And it was issued except where there are people brought in

25 on whatever grounds and of either Muslim or Serb ethnicity."

Page 7639

1 Q. You said "serving the term." What terms? Since when?

2 A. Those punishments, those sentences, were pronounced before the

3 armed conflict, and some of those convicts remained in the KP Dom, or

4 rather remained in parts of the KP Dom, because some of these persons were

5 at the Brioni farm.

6 Q. Could you tell us how many of them were there in the KP Dom?

7 A. There were all in all about 20 odd, as far as I can remember.

8 Q. Did you send reports to the Ministry of Justice and information

9 about persons serving their terms on the basis of final judgements?

10 A. I was the responsible person, and I was appointed by the Ministry

11 of Justice, and I had -- even when it came to detail, let alone to such

12 major things, I had to report from time to time to the Ministry of

13 Justice.

14 Q. Did you send reports about the situation at the Drina business

15 unit to the Ministry of Justice?

16 A. I had to do that and I did it.

17 Q. Did you send reports to the Ministry of Justice or did you -- were

18 you bound to send reports about persons of Muslim ethnicity incarcerated

19 there?

20 A. The Ministry of Justice was informed that I had rented a part of

21 the KP Dom to the army command, and therefore I was under no obligation

22 whatsoever to send any such reports about the situation -- about the state

23 of the detainees. It is common knowledge who was responsible for them.

24 Q. Did you -- as an employee of the Ministry of Justice, appointed by

25 the minister's decision, could you also be a military official? Could you

Page 7640

1 be a part of the army command? Could you discharge two duties in

2 parallel, both civilian and military?

3 A. Will you please listen to me? It is common knowledge in physics

4 that one body cannot be in two different places at one and the same time.

5 So what I did, and the obligation that I had in the -- in a part of the KP

6 Dom, had I not had such good collaborators who understood my position and

7 the situation in the municipality, I wouldn't have been able to face up to

8 that, let alone do other -- perform other jobs, perform other chores, for

9 which nobody had made me responsible for.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Will the usher please help me to show

11 you a document marked ID D85.

12 Q. Since it is a rather long document, I shall merely say -- I shall,

13 that is, ask you to look at page 10 of the document, and tell me if this

14 is your signature.

15 A. The signature is mine.

16 Q. And this is information about the convicts serving their terms in

17 the penitentiary of Foca sent to the Ministry of Justice of the Republika

18 Srpska. Are you familiar with the document or do you remember it?

19 A. Yes, I remember the document. And it was sent to the ministry

20 because the ministry had requested a report on the situation, rather the

21 number of people serving their terms in the penitentiary, in the KP Dom.

22 Q. I'd merely like to clarify one point. Here there are 27 persons,

23 and the 15th of November 1992 is the -- that is, it says that by 15th of

24 November 1992, that person will have served a part of the term, and the

25 document is of the 24th of 11th. Can you tell us why is the 15th of

Page 7641

1 November this cutoff date?

2 A. As far as I can remember, I do not know the exact dates, but --

3 date, but there was a meeting of wardens in Bjelina, I think because it

4 was a detached office of the ministry, and so that everybody will have to

5 travel an equal distance, it was held there. Now, I wish I had my notes

6 because I'd be able to be more accurate now, but I'm trying to remember

7 it. It was said then that a date should be set and say, by that date, how

8 many people have already -- what part of their terms they had already

9 served, and the remaining punishment, so this could have been done before

10 the 15th, perhaps a few days earlier. And then mid-month was taken as a

11 kind of a boundary and then it said what part of the term individual

12 convicts had served, how much longer they had to serve, and whether we had

13 any suggestions to make with regard to those convicts. I can't really

14 remember it all, but I know it was something to that effect, because the

15 -- the clerks had given me some special instructions then because I was

16 an amateur at this business, since I was a teacher and not an employee of

17 the -- of a penitentiary, so that I had to take notes to know what I had

18 to do, and I had to ask my collaborators to help me out and do it for me.

19 Q. Along with this information concerning convicted persons, did you

20 provide information on the KP Dom itself?

21 A. Yes, yes. I think that there were some other reports, some other

22 pieces of information that went in along with this, and it was quite a

23 job, especially for me. It really made me lose weight in terms of bones

24 because there was hardly any muscle on me. However, with my

25 collaborators, I managed to portray the situation as it was at the time in

Page 7642













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcript.












Page 7643

1 the KP Dom Foca.

2 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, this report on the situation in the KP Dom Foca, if

3 you look at the last page, page 4, is that your signature? And we can

4 also see a stamp here.

5 A. Yes, yes, it is my signature.

6 Q. Is that a stamp of the KP Dom?

7 A. Couldn't have been anybody else's but the KP Dom, because the

8 stamp is there to verify that the signature is mine.

9 Q. There is no date on this document. How come you know that this

10 was also sent in November 1992?

11 A. Because precisely then, at that meeting, something was said and

12 explained, and then it was said that all of this should be put on paper

13 and sent out to the Ministry of Defence so that something would remain

14 behind in terms of what had been done and what the situation was, and what

15 condition each building was in, and that is probably why there is no

16 date. But it wasn't my job to put dates on this. It was the clerk's

17 office that did that, and perhaps it was taken from various parts.

18 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, let's just clarify a point, which ministry did you

19 send this report to?

20 A. The Ministry of Justice, the Ministry of Justice, as it was

21 called, or of the Judiciary. I think that's what it was called. The

22 Ministry of Justice, I always called it that. The Ministry of Justice.

23 That's where it was sent. Of Republika Srpska, that is.

24 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, on page 3 of this report, on page 3 of this

25 report --

Page 7644

1 A. You mean information?

2 Q. Yes, I mean information. In the seventh row, in brackets, it

3 says, for example, in the period of seven months of war, et cetera, et

4 cetera. Which month would this be, if you are giving this kind of

5 information, and if you are saying in the period of seven months into the

6 war, et cetera? Would that be precisely November 1992?

7 A. At any rate, the seventh month, and if you would do all the

8 counting right, that would be the month concerned, because what else could

9 it be? In those seven months since I came or, rather, since I was

10 appointed at the KP Dom.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krnojelac.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like

13 ID D85 and ID D85A to be admitted into evidence.

14 MS. KUO: No objection.

15 JUDGE HUNT: They will be Exhibits 85A -- oh, I'm told that they

16 have already been admitted into evidence and they were admitted on the

17 12th of June.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise for this

19 error that the Defence made, but abundance is less of a problem than the

20 opposite, as they say in our country.

21 JUDGE HUNT: There is every reason for that sort of error to be

22 made. We do not blame you at all, Mr. Bakrac.

23 MS. KUO: Your Honour, out of an abundance of caution, our case

24 manager informs us that there was a discussion on the 12th but her record

25 shows that it wasn't formally entered, so I guess it doesn't hurt to have

Page 7645

1 it entered officially even if it ends up being doubled.

2 JUDGE HUNT: In case there is any doubt, they will be now admitted

3 as Exhibits D85 and D85A. It can be checked with the transcript

4 eventually.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, as for persons who were serving their terms on the

7 basis of final judgments passed before the war, did any of them want to

8 join the Army of Republika Srpska or was there any proposal to that effect

9 that was sent to the military command?

10 A. When I came to that temporary duty, I made no such proposals,

11 ever, but I heard before that, some joined the ranks of the Army of

12 Republika Srpska.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

14 would like to have ID D88 shown to you, please.

15 Q. In order to shorten the procedure involved, Mr. Krnojelac, this is

16 a document that is sent to the Foca Tactical Group with a list of persons

17 who are serving their prison sentences, who had expressed a wish to be

18 sent to military units, and the proposal is that only two out of seven

19 mentioned persons meet the requirements, psychologically, physically, et

20 cetera, and at the end of this document it says, "For temporary

21 administrator Milorad Krnojelac," and then there is a signature. Do you

22 know whether this is your signature and whose is it?

23 A. This is not my signature but it does say "temporary warden Milorad

24 Krnojelac." As far as I can understand this, it says "for." It could be

25 the signature of Mr. Milan Vujovic, the lawyer there.

Page 7646

1 Q. Do you know about this kind of document being drafted?

2 A. I can't remember. Probably he did not do this without having

3 informed me in some way but I cannot remember that.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, the Defence

5 would like document ID D88 and the translation, 88A, to be admitted into

6 evidence.

7 JUDGE HUNT: It was admitted on the 2nd of May, and apparently

8 there's no dispute about that. So let's go along with the next one.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Then I'm going on. I do apologise.

10 In the list of exhibits, the Defence tried to ascertain which have been

11 admitted and which have not yet. So we made mistakes. We're sorry.

12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac --

13 JUDGE HUNT: There is a list which the registry has prepared, and

14 you'll be given a copy of it so you can check overnight. Hopefully it's

15 correct. If there's any dispute, we'll have to debate that later.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. You said that most probably this was signed by the lawyer, Milan

18 Vujovic. Did he have the right to sign something in your name, and if so,

19 when?

20 A. Mr. Vujovic, an employee of the KP Dom of many years, a good man

21 who helped me find my way during those first days at the KP Dom, had the

22 right to sign certain documents if I was not at the KP Dom. I had great

23 trust in him because, as I said, he was a true expert in his field.

24 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, please be so kind as to tell me whether you got any

25 requests in writing from persons of Muslim ethnicity with regard to their

Page 7647

1 release from the KP Dom?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did you do with such requests, and how did these requests

4 reach you?

5 A. It was either misinformation or perhaps, if I may express such a

6 suspicion, perhaps it was somebody's intention. There were persons who

7 sent me some letters, if I remember correctly, asking me for different

8 things, or, rather, they did not always address the warden of the KP Dom

9 but also other institutions. I always forwarded these letters, and I must

10 say that here, I mean intentionally and unintentionally, because persons

11 who were in contact with me were certainly informed that Milorad Krnojelac

12 was in charge of part of the KP Dom and could not help them at all. I was

13 not ashamed of telling them that, that I could not help them at all, but I

14 forwarded these requests further on. There were a few such cases.

15 Q. When you would send this further on, did you give any opinion of

16 your own, or were you in charge of giving an opinion, an assessment or

17 whatever, as warden of the KP Dom?

18 A. The previous document, the information provided to the Ministry of

19 Justice, I was in charge of that because this was through my colleagues,

20 these people who knew more about these convicted persons. I signed such

21 pieces of information. Since I had nothing to do with persons who were

22 brought into custody - it was the military command that did - I could not

23 give any proposal to anyone because I didn't know anything about them

24 anyway.

25 Q. I understand, Mr. Krnojelac. I notice that when I wait for the

Page 7648

1 transcript to finish, that you seem to think that you should add something

2 to what you've already said, and that's how we go on forever. When you

3 finish your answer, I just want your answer to be interpreted in its

4 entirety.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, he has not been alone in that, if you'll

6 remember at the very beginning of this trial. But anyway, you proceed.

7 You're doing your very best and we're very grateful to you.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 I would like to ask the usher, please, to -- I mean, I do

10 apologise to him for such a tiring afternoon, but could he please show the

11 witness document ID D66, ID D66/1, and ID D66/2.

12 Q. Sir, Mr. Krnojelac, are you familiar with this document?

13 A. The signature is mine, and I remember this. Well, I said that I

14 forwarded such letters. See? It was received on the very same day, the

15 30th of July, 1992, and that's when I sent it on. Tactical Group of

16 Foca.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like documents

18 ID D66/1 and ID D66/2, together with their translations, to be admitted

19 into evidence.

20 MS. KUO: No objection.

21 JUDGE HUNT: They will be Exhibits D66 and D66A [sic].

22 A. Perhaps, because I remember exactly why I put it to the Tactical

23 Group, because I knew that it was rented to the military command and it

24 said, "to the warden of the KP Dom." And then I thought that the warden

25 of the KP Dom was actually, as far as the military is concerned, a person

Page 7649

1 from the Foca Tactical Group, one of their people.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

3 would like the witness to be shown ID D67, please.

4 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, would you please look at this letter and tell me

5 whether this is your signature.

6 A. Yes, this is my signature. Yes, yes, this letter, forwarding it.

7 Q. In the letter that we showed you a few minutes ago, you were

8 addressing the Foca Tactical Group, and here, the Crisis Staff of Foca.

9 A. The gentleman who submitted this request, Mr. Enes Zekovic, he was

10 writing to the Crisis Staff of the Serb municipality of Foca. And now why

11 did these requests come to me? Who brought them? Perhaps they had asked,

12 with confidence, that this be sent to me so that it would actually reach

13 the addressees. And that's exactly where I sent them.

14 Q. Thank you, sir.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like

16 document ID D67 and 67A to be admitted into evidence, please.

17 MS. KUO: No objection.

18 JUDGE HUNT: They will be Exhibits D67 and D67A.

19 I must correct the previous exhibit numbers. They should be D66/1

20 and D66/1A.

21 I've read through the transcript, the passages shown to me by the

22 court deputy in relation to that previous one that was in dispute, 85. It

23 was not admitted into evidence then, but it now has been.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to ask

25 you for another correction, in view of 67. It also has 67/1. So it's 67

Page 7650

1 and 67/1, and both documents have respective translations.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Unfortunately, that didn't come out in the

3 transcript, and I don't think I heard it either. But anyway, we'll add to

4 that. There should be Exhibits 67/1 and 67/1A.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I beg your pardon, there

6 is quite a confusion with these numbers. My colleague, Mr. Vasic, tells

7 me that in the transcript "66/2" is missing, because there is 66, 66/1,

8 and 66/2.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Bakrac, we can only go on the transcript

10 and the interpretation. I see no reference anywhere to "/2." But that

11 was tendered, was it?

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, my mistake, because

13 I did not see the third page when I was tendering it. It is my mistake

14 only, and my colleague Mr. Vasic just signalled that to me now, that there

15 is a document with "/2" as well.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Ms. Kuo, any objection to "/1" and "/2"?

17 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. We shall add yet again 66/2 and

19 66/2A.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and I do

21 apologise once again.

22 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, financing that part of the KP Dom and the economic

23 unit that you headed, was that one of the duties of the Ministry of

24 Justice?

25 A. As far as I know, the KP Dom was established by the Ministry of

Page 7651

1 Justice and it was their duty to finance the workers and employees who

2 belonged to the Drina Economic Unit of the KP Dom.

3 Q. For the work of the KP Dom, was there a certain budget that was

4 envisaged and budgetary resources?

5 A. I was told that that's the way it was done before as well, before

6 the war conflict broke out; that there was always supposed to be a budget

7 and that was the case during the war operations as well. There was

8 supposed to be a budget.

9 Q. Did you get anything from the ministry?

10 A. Very little. Almost nothing. A little bit was received, as far

11 as I can remember.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to show

13 the witness ID D84, please, and perhaps for the sake of brevity, 83 as

14 well, please.

15 Q. Please just take a look at this document and tell us whether this

16 is your signature on this document and whether the stamp is that of the KP

17 Dom.

18 A. It is my signature, and it says here "Upravnik." Yes, yes, as

19 long as it's my signature, it must be the stamp of the KP Dom as well.

20 The stamp must be authentic.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like

22 to tender 84 and 84A into evidence, please.

23 JUDGE HUNT: What about 83? I thought you asked him to look at 83

24 as well. Any objection?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But the usher did

Page 7652

1 not have his headphones on so he only took document 84 and showed it to

2 the witness.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection to 84?

4 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HUNT: They will be Exhibits D84 and D84A.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, would you please be so kind as to look at this.

8 This is a letter to the Ministry of the Economy where a certain quantity

9 of oil is being requested so that the KP Dom could function. Is this your

10 signature on this document? And why did you address yourself to the

11 Ministry of the Economy?

12 A. It is my signature, and due to the circumstances involved, and the

13 difficulties in providing proper supplies of oil and oil derivatives and

14 maintaining four-and-a-half-thousand hens, and then also there were swines

15 and pigs. It was very difficult to get oil derivatives. So I had to ask

16 them for that, let them know that I asked for it. If they give some, let

17 them give it. I thought it was proper for them to see how agile I was and

18 that I asked for it, and that's why I asked for it.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krnojelac.

20 The Defence would like document ID D83 and 83A, the translation,

21 to be admitted into evidence.

22 MS. KUO: No objection.

23 JUDGE HUNT: They will be Exhibits D83 and 83A.

24 There is hardly time for the usher to get over to you and get back

25 again by 4.00. We will adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow morning.

Page 7653

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

2 3.59 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday the 26th day

3 of June, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.