Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7654

 1                          Tuesday, 26 June 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Call the case, please.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  This is the case number

 7    IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Bakrac.

 9            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

10    morning, everybody.

11                          WITNESS:  MILORAD KRNOJELAC [Resumed]

12                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                          Examined by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]

14       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krnojelac, can we resume?  Yesterday you

15    spoke -- you explained how you first became a provisional warden and then

16    the warden, having been appointed by the decision of the Minister of

17    Justice.  What were your duties in the KP Dom?  Could you tell us that?

18       A.   The decision of the appointment of the first provisional warden of

19    the KP Dom, and in later -- in subsequent contacts, I was told that it was

20    my duty to look after the KP Dom property, to repair the destroyed part as

21    much as possible, and to gradually -- to conduct gradual preparations so

22    that the production, the production part of the KP Dom, could be put in

23    operative state again.

24       Q.   And in performing these duties, did you have to travel often and

25    were you frequently absent from the KP Dom?

Page 7655

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Can you tell us:  Where did you go?  How long were these business

 3    trips and what was their purpose?

 4       A.   At that time, one could travel to the rest of Yugoslavia, that is,

 5    the Republic of Serbia, Montenegro, and Republika Srpska.  It depended on

 6    how long one stayed away.  The purpose of my trips was that in various

 7    places we needed to carry out earlier contracts, and later on to sell the

 8    furniture and other production of the KP Dom, so as to -- and some funds

 9    which the KP Dom needed.  There were also some other trips of a private

10    nature, and you already know why.  If you want me to, I'll --

11       Q.   We'll come back to that.  And when you were not out of Foca, did

12    you spend all your time in the KP Dom or did you again go to attend to

13    various errands outside the KP Dom?

14       A.   There is no enterprise in Foca that was open at the time without

15    me having visited them a number of times.  So there were various travels

16    around the town of Foca and its neighbourhood, and such travels were quite

17    frequent.

18       Q.   You said that your duty was to put the production back to life.

19    Could you tell us more about it, what was done to put the production back

20    in operational stage?

21       A.   First the farm went back to work because the damage there was the

22    least serious; then after, the repairs and reconstruction, the

23    metal-working unit, which made part of the KP Dom; then the furniture

24    factory.  And about 15 to 18 kilometres away from Foca there was a large

25    fish pond.  During the combat operations it was destroyed in part, and

Page 7656

 1    lamentably, the part destroyed was the part with large quantities of

 2    trout.  And we did there what we could do and rescued what could be

 3    rescued.  And again, another work unit of the KP Dom, because all of these

 4    are the work units of the KP Dom, so we had a retail store in the town

 5    itself, and this commercial outlet sold various products, including those

 6    made outside the municipality of Foca.

 7            We could do nothing, however, on a building plant -- with a

 8    building plant which was in Sarajevo, because this building plant was

 9    being run, or rather, controlled by the forces of the Republic of BH or

10    their paramilitary units.

11       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, you told us where you were put when you arrived in

12    the KP Dom.  Where was your office in the beginning?

13       A.   I said that the first day that I got there, I was put in an office

14    which was the first to the left as you entered the passage into the

15    administration building, and there I saw some machinery.  And later on I

16    was told that before the armed conflict broke out, it was the censorship

17    room, or rather the inspection of -- it served to inspect the things

18    brought by persons visiting persons serving their terms.  So it was a

19    small room with a cupboard, this censorship machine, I don't know what

20    it's called, and there was an ancient armchair there and a chair.

21       Q.   Did you use that room as your office throughout your work in the

22    KP Dom or did you move to another room?

23       A.   Since all the other rooms, as I have said, had been destroyed and

24    damaged by the predecessors who had been in the KP Dom, I could not move

25    to any other room straight away, so I stayed in this one room.  And later

Page 7657

 1    on, when the place was cleaned up and repaired slightly, I moved to the

 2    office prepared for me by my collaborators, and that was the office, the

 3    former office, of the warden of the KP Dom.

 4       Q.   Is it in the right wing of the KP Dom as you enter the

 5    administrative building?

 6       A.   As you enter -- as you enter the building, to the right is a

 7    passage, so you take that passage, and I'd call it the ground floor, and

 8    then there is the first floor, and that room was on the second floor.

 9       Q.   And in that building that you just mentioned and where your office

10    was, were there also other offices of the administrative personnel, staff

11    and workers of the Drina business unit?

12       A.   As I -- since I mentioned the ground floor, then on the second

13    floor were the rooms of the administrative personnel, that is on the first

14    floor, that is the ground floor, and then the first floor, below my

15    office.  And that is the first floor.

16       Q.   And underneath your office, was there another office of the same

17    size used by the administrative personnel?

18       A.   Well, I didn't measure the squares so I cannot exactly say, but

19    I'd say in my view that that room was the size of my office, except that

20    that room, there were five or six desks and five or six administrative

21    workers.  I wouldn't know their exact number.

22       Q.   At the time when you were in the KP Dom, was there a large number

23    of women working in administration?

24       A.   As in all the other companies, that was the case with the KP Dom

25    too.  We mostly had female labour there.

Page 7658

 1       Q.   You mean the administration of the KP Dom?

 2       A.   Yes, the administration, clerks.

 3       Q.   What were their working hours, could you tell us?

 4       A.   All employees in the -- all the clerks in the business, in the

 5    Drina business unit, had the working hours from 7.00 to 1500.  That was

 6    the old -- those were the old customary hours prior to the break out of

 7    the armed conflict.

 8       Q.   And what were your working hours?

 9       A.   Well, I said all the staff, that means that those were my working

10    hours too, from 7.00 to 1500, like all the other clerks in the Drina

11    business unit.

12       Q.   Did you ever come to the KP Dom at night or stay late into the

13    afternoon?

14       A.   There was absolutely no need for me to come by night or stay late

15    into the afternoon, so that this did not happen, except on one occasion

16    when I was there in the afternoon.

17       Q.   You say one occasion.  And when was that and why?

18       A.   I should like to ask you not to hold it against me, but it is

19    really very difficult to remember exactly what and when it was after all

20    this time, but it must have been sometime in late May, in May, when

21    Mr. Sipcic, Mitar Sipcic, came to the KP Dom with the head of the bakery.

22    They came to seek authorisation to work in the bakery of the KP Dom

23    because the town bakery, which was about 50 to 100 metres from the KP Dom,

24    could not work since the power had been cut.

25       Q.   And what did they ask you to do?  You say they came.  Did they

Page 7659

 1    come to see you?

 2       A.   They asked me to let them, the bakery, because Mr. Sipcic, I

 3    suppose, was responsible for logistics, to supply the troops with bread

 4    since the town had no bread and others did not have any bread, so they

 5    asked it because they thought that our bakery was in working order.  So

 6    they came to ask me if bakers from the town bakery could come over to us

 7    and bake bread.  However, the bakery was not in working order at that

 8    time.  It had been damaged during the armed conflict.

 9       Q.   But did you put it back into working order so that it could bake

10    bread?

11       A.   Well, since I was a complete layman in so far as the bakeries were

12    concerned, and the number of other businesses and things, I said I knew

13    nothing about it until I asked a man who could know something about it.

14    So I called Mr. Relja Goljanin and asked him what state was the bakery in,

15    could it be repaired and put back to its original purpose.  Mr. Goljanin

16    then said yes, if we can find some spare parts for that bakery.  And he

17    said straight away that those spare parts could probably be found in the

18    central warehouse, if it turned out that some of those parts had been

19    damaged.  And that was the case.

20            And the chief of the central warehouse was absent because he had

21    gone to Belgrade to visit his mother, who had been hospitalised.  So the

22    chief of the central warehouse, as was their custom earlier, had left the

23    keys of the central warehouse with me so that a commission could go and

24    open the central warehouse in case a spare part was needed.  And I stayed

25    there until such time when the bakery was repaired and until the first

Page 7660

 1    fire was made there, because that was a bakery which used firewood, and of

 2    course it had to reach a certain temperature so that you could bake bread.

 3       Q.   Whilst you worked in the KP Dom, did you ever go to the prison

 4    club?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises.  "Into the prison

 7    compound."

 8       A.   Yes.  I had to if I wanted to get to the furniture factory, if I

 9    wanted to get to the central warehouse, if I wanted to go to the storeroom

10    with equipment and food.  Yes, I had to go into the prison yard, and I

11    did, but not often; only when the need arose and when I went to the

12    dining-room to have my breakfast.

13            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   Did you enter the buildings which housed the detained persons of

15    Muslim ethnicity?

16       A.   No, never.  I never entered those buildings.  I claim this

17    responsibly.

18       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, a while ago you said that -- you told us where your

19    office was and where the administrative personnel were.  Did investigators

20    come to the KP Dom to interrogate those detained Muslims?  Do you know

21    anything about that?

22       A.   I do know, yes.  They came.

23       Q.   For a while, in the beginning, do you know where they conducted

24    the interrogations?

25       A.   I wasn't there when they came the first time, but they found a

Page 7661













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Page 7662

 1    room on the first floor.  They just picked one out, and in that room they

 2    conducted interrogations.

 3       Q.   You say a room.  Where was that room?

 4       A.   That room was on the first floor.  As you take the staircase,

 5    since the staircase goes through the middle of that administrative

 6    building, so when you reach the landing, then you turn left.

 7       Q.   Is it the part of the building, the administration building, which

 8    also housed your office, or rather the same floor on which the

 9    administrative personnel worked?

10       A.   In the early days, this was on the same floor as the

11    administrative personnel.

12       Q.   Do you know when were those interrogations conducted, from when to

13    when?

14       A.   At times I saw them come at 7.00 and leave at 3.00, that is, at

15    1500.  But I do not know if that was the case every day, because at times

16    I never saw them at all.  However, these interrogations were conducted

17    there in the early days, and towards the end of May already they moved to

18    another part of the building, to the part when you enter the KP Dom to the

19    left, to the room where there was the so-called guard building - that is

20    what it said on sketches - and they moved over there then.

21       Q.   Were they employees of the KP Dom or not?

22       A.   They were not KP Dom employees, and as far as I know, they were

23    the employees of the Ministry of the Interior, or of the Secretariat of

24    the Interior, the police station.

25       Q.   So if I am following you, they were not employees of the Ministry

Page 7663

 1    of Justice; they were the employees of the Ministry of the Interior?

 2       A.   That's right.  That's what I said.

 3       Q.   When they moved over to that other building, to the guard

 4    building, did you continue to see them, and how often?

 5       A.   When they moved to that other part of the building, the guard

 6    building, I could not see them because our paths ran into opposite

 7    directions, unless if it simply so happened that we left together the

 8    building at 1500, but that happened very seldom.

 9       Q.   You told us that you went to the dining-room to have your

10    breakfast.  Was the kitchen of the KP Dom immediately put back in working

11    order after you came to the KP Dom?

12       A.   When I came to the KP Dom, not a single building could start

13    working immediately.  Every building required a certain amount of time and

14    some material in order to get it going.  The same went for the

15    dining-room.

16       Q.   Before you got the dining-room going, do you know where the food

17    came from?

18       A.   I heard that food came from the military kitchen that was at

19    Livade.  It was distributed in the KP Dom.

20       Q.   When your own kitchen started working, did you get a cook as

21    well?  Did a cook come to work at the KP Dom?

22       A.   The military command appointed a cook, Krsto Krnojelac, by way of

23    his work obligation, so he did that work in the kitchen at the KP Dom.  I

24    say that he did that, but he was actually in charge of the dining-room and

25    kitchen, by the military command, that is.

Page 7664

 1       Q.   You say that you had breakfast there.  What about the other

 2    administrative staff and the other staff of the KP Dom in general?  Did

 3    they also take their meals at that kitchen?  And tell me, where did

 4    persons who stayed in the KP Dom serving their sentences have their

 5    meals?

 6       A.   With the exception of the ladies, or rather the women, everybody

 7    else took their meals at that dining-room.  I said "except for ladies"

 8    because ladies did not go through the compound for several reasons, and

 9    they are the ones who know the best why they didn't pass through the

10    compound.  But from time to time, some of these colleagues who worked

11    together with them at offices bring them something, if they did not have

12    in their own handbags something to eat that they had prepared at their own

13    homes, because there was no other place where one could have breakfast.

14       Q.   In that kitchen, were meals cooked separately for Muslim detainees

15    and separately for everybody else, or was the food cooked in a different

16    way?

17       A.   I claim with certainty, on the basis of what I have seen myself,

18    that food was prepared in the same cauldron for everyone.  I did not

19    attend lunch but I did attend breakfast.  When I passed to the furniture

20    factory, I saw just one cauldron where food was being cooked, and there

21    was another one where water was being heated; that is to say, that I did

22    not see any other cauldrons there.  That is why I am asserting that all

23    the cooking was done in a single cauldron.

24       Q.   Do you know whether detainees of Muslim ethnicity got smaller

25    portions than other persons who took their meals there?  And was the

Page 7665

 1    quality of food different?  Do you know about that?

 2       A.   I said a few minutes ago that I did not take lunch there.  No one

 3    ever made it known to me that there was any kind of wrongdoing going on in

 4    this respect.  I believe that everybody got the same.

 5       Q.   Since you went to the dining-room for breakfast, what were the

 6    hygienic conditions at the dining-room like?  Were they satisfactory?

 7       A.   It is a fact that hygienic conditions were good and satisfactory,

 8    and this is proven by the fact that over 14 or 15 months while I was

 9    there, there was not a single case of a contagious disease.  That is to

10    say that the dining-room was clean and that the food was fresh, and fresh

11    food is a basic prerequisite for good health.

12       Q.   Tell me, please, did the KP Dom at Foca have its own clinic and

13    its own pharmacy?

14       A.   As far as I know, from the times before the war conflict broke

15    out, the KP Dom had its own clinic, its own hospital, its own pharmacy.

16    They even had modern x-ray machines and other equipment, and that remained

17    in the KP Dom as well during the wartime period.  There was even a

18    dentist's office there.

19       Q.   Was that part of the KP Dom rented out to the military as well?

20       A.   Just as the accommodation premises were rented out, that is how

21    these auxiliary premises were rented out as well, like the clinic, the

22    dining hall.

23       Q.   Was that clinic, like the dining-room, used by persons who

24    happened to be there serving their prison sentences and even some workers

25    of the KP Dom, in addition to the persons who were there coming from the

Page 7666

 1    military?

 2       A.   I did not use that clinic, but I am sure, and I know that this

 3    clinic was used by persons who were serving their prison sentences as well

 4    as detained persons.

 5       Q.   Do you know whether doctors came to the KP Dom to provide medical

 6    care, and who appointed them to come to the KP Dom, to this clinic?

 7       A.   I know that Gojko Jokanovic, a medical man, told me that doctors

 8    were appointed by the military command to do their work obligation at the

 9    KP Dom.  It also happened from time to time that I would see a doctor in

10    passing in front of the KP Dom.  I would see a doctor coming to the KP

11    Dom.

12       Q.   You said that there was a pharmacy at the KP Dom.  Before the war

13    conflict broke out, was there medicine at that pharmacy, and did those

14    medicines belong to the KP Dom?  Were they the property of the KP Dom?

15       A.   Gojko Jokanovic, the medical man, retired before the war conflict

16    broke out.  He had worked in that institution, and he was assigned by the

17    military to take care of the persons detained at the KP Dom.  One day he

18    came to my office and said to me, "Milorad, I have been assigned by the

19    military, and could I use the pharmacy and the clinic for these

20    purposes?"  As we talked, I said, "What would you be doing there if I

21    can't give you permission for this?  But Gojko, you should know that I am

22    in charge of this property and that I am responsible for this property."

23    He said to me that he would certainly take good care of it, as he did of

24    his own, and I gave Mr. Gojko Jokanovic the keys to the pharmacy, the

25    clinic, and I said to him that he could use these medicines provided that

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Page 7668

 1    he made some kind of an inventory in terms of what is there and how much

 2    and things like that, because the commission did not go to the pharmacy

 3    before that.  Mr. Gojko Jokanovic did that and then told me that there was

 4    quite a bit of medicine there and that there were even some very valuable

 5    medicines in that clinic.

 6       Q.   Do you know whether Mr. Gojko Jokanovic gave these medicines to

 7    detainees of Muslim ethnicity?

 8       A.   Maybe he did this of his own free will, but he probably did that

 9    with the approval of the doctors who came in and examined persons.  From

10    time to time he would inform me about medicines that were no longer in

11    stock, and he wondered where they could be found, things like that.  He

12    also asked the hospital about all of this, because this is an elderly,

13    conscientious man, who carried out his work conscientiously.

14       Q.   Do you know, Mr. Krnojelac, whether persons who were within the

15    compound, in those prisoners' quarters, had running water and

16    possibilities for maintaining their personal hygiene?

17       A.   I said that I did not enter the premises where the detained

18    persons were, but I was told precisely by Mr. Jokanovic, as well as other

19    individual workers from the administration, that on every floor there is a

20    bathroom and that there is water, because when the hospital had water,

21    then the KP Dom had to have water as well, because they are part of the

22    same waterworks.  As for hot water, I said a few minutes ago, when I

23    talked about the two cauldrons, that hot water was in one of them and that

24    was used for washing dishes, and also detained persons and convicted

25    persons could use that water, as far as I know, for maintaining their

Page 7669

 1    personal hygiene.

 2       Q.   What about the Drina Economic Unit and you personally?  Did you

 3    help out on that score as well when there were shortages in this respect?

 4    Did you also help these persons who were in that part of the KP Dom that

 5    was rented out to the military?

 6       A.   As for me personally, I did not make any distinction between

 7    persons who were serving their prison sentences - and there weren't that

 8    many of them: two, three, four; it depended - I did not make any

 9    distinction between persons who were there serving their prison sentences

10    or detained persons.  And whenever I could, through barter activities, I

11    tried, whenever possible, to get from various companies detergent, soap,

12    and all other things that are important for maintaining hygiene.  How much

13    I succeeded depended on how much of this I could get from individual

14    companies.

15       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, since you did not work at the KP Dom before the

16    war, do you perhaps know what the capacity of the KP Dom was; how many

17    persons could be put up there?

18       A.   Different figures were floating around, but it is certain that

19    1.000 to 1.200 persons could be housed in the premises of the KP Dom.

20    There were even some figures that pointed to 1.500 persons who could be

21    staying there at the same time, but I'm not aware of that precisely.

22       Q.   When part of the KP Dom was rented out to the military, in the

23    central warehouse of the KP Dom was there any bed linen there, blankets?

24    Was that also given to detained persons for their own use, detained

25    persons of Muslim ethnicity?

Page 7670

 1       A.   Such an institution like the KP Dom was -- had to have reserves of

 2    bed linen, blankets, clothing, et cetera.  Perhaps something went missing,

 3    but I'm sure that it was given out too, because I personally told Mr. Laza

 4    that he should give whatever can be used, and if necessary, that can be

 5    used for and by persons who were detained in the institution.

 6       Q.   You said "Mr. Laza."  Who is that?

 7       A.   That is Lazo Divljan, the warehouse keeper, and he was entrusted

 8    with food and equipment for a while.  But after that it was Vujicic, I

 9    think.

10            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would kindly

11    ask for a minute of private session, please.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Very well.  We'll move into private session.

13                          [Private session]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

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Page 7676

 1    [redacted]

 2                          [Open session]

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  We are now in public session.

 4            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, whilst you were in the KP Dom, were you -- did you

 6    know if the detained persons of Muslim ethnicity could have -- were

 7    entitled to visitors?  Do you know anything about that?

 8       A.   I know that they had visitors, but nobody asked me to authorise or

 9    prohibit those visits.  In other words, it was somebody else who

10    authorised visits to detained persons.

11       Q.   Do you know if these visits were prohibited at some point, and if

12    you do, do you know why?

13       A.   They were prohibited for a few days because, as the medical man,

14    Gojko Jokanovic, told me, because lice had appeared, because several

15    detainees brought from somewhere to the KP Dom had been infested with

16    lice.

17       Q.   And did you play any part in the authorisation of such visits, and

18    subsequently, did you have any part in prohibiting; that is, were you the

19    one who prohibited those visits?

20       A.   No, I had no part, nor did I have any need to have a part, nor did

21    I prohibit the visits.  The detainees, will you please listen to me, were

22    under the military command, and they were the ones who took all the

23    decisions with regard to them.

24       Q.   You told us that you did go into the prison yard, not all that

25    often but that you did go there when you had to go to the storeroom or to

Page 7677

 1    have your breakfast or something like that, and as you would walk through

 2    the yard, did you ever notice some incident, some incident concerning

 3    those detained persons of Muslim ethnicity?

 4       A.   With one exception, I do not know what incident are you referring

 5    to, but any particular incident, I mean a fight or anything else, I never

 6    saw anything like that in the prison yard, because I usually went to the

 7    furniture factory at the time when there were no detained persons in the

 8    yard.

 9       Q.   You have just told us that you mostly went through the yard when

10    there were no detained persons in that yard, but perhaps during your stay

11    in the KP Dom, or in the prison yard, perhaps you did see some persons of

12    Muslim ethnicity who had been beaten and who had severe and visible

13    injuries on their bodies.

14       A.   I claim responsibly that I never saw anything like that.

15       Q.   You said that your working hours in the KP Dom was from 7.00 to

16    1500 and that those were the working hours of the administrative

17    personnel, which mostly employed women.  Did you ever, during those hours

18    between 7.00 and 1500, or when you were in the KP Dom, did you ever hear

19    sounds of beating, of battery, of cries of pain, of moans, screams?

20       A.   I can swear on the lives of all the members of my family, and they

21    are 19, that I never heard any moans, any screams, any cries of pain

22    during my stay in the KP Dom.  And when I swear on the lives of my family,

23    and I appreciate and love them above everything else, then you will

24    understand that I am telling the truth, if you understand what I'm saying

25    and if you need the truth.

Page 7678

 1       Q.   But did you hear from somebody else that there was ill-treatment

 2    of persons of Muslim ethnicity in the prison or even murders?

 3       A.   I affirm that I never heard about any beatings, any batteries, any

 4    killing, except suicide.

 5       Q.   You say "except suicide."  What do you mean?  Could you please

 6    explain it?

 7       A.   I mean -- I mean that I heard, I did not see, I did not see it

 8    because, aside from my parents, I never saw a dead body in my life, and I

 9    cannot bear that.  But I heard on one occasion, from Mr. Jokanovic, that

10    there had been a suicide -- no, I think two suicides, in the penitentiary,

11    in the KP Dom.

12       Q.   And what did Mr. Jokanovic tell you?  Who was that and what was

13    undertaken after that?  Did he tell you?

14       A.   He told me, and it was very difficult for me, very hard on me to

15    hear that, that Konjo had committed suicide, and that later on, on a

16    second occasion, another man hanged himself.  I think he was called

17    Dzamalija or something, I don't know, and that a commission had come to

18    investigate the first and the second case and that they conducted an

19    investigation into those two suicides.

20       Q.   Do you know, did you hear, are you aware, of any cases when

21    detained persons of Muslim ethnicity were punished because of an extra

22    slice of bread or an extra ration?

23       A.   I was not responsible for detained persons, and in my statement I

24    already said with how many people I communicated.  In other words, nobody

25    ever told me, nor was I ever aware, of anything like that, of somebody

Page 7679













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Page 7680

 1    being punished for a slice of bread or a food ration.  If there was food,

 2    then that food was shared among everybody, but I do not know of any such

 3    thing.

 4       Q.   Do you know a person called Salko Mandzo?

 5       A.   If that is the man who worked at Izvor who drove garbage in the

 6    tractor, yes, I know him.  He was known as Kelta, unless there is somebody

 7    else too.

 8       Q.   Did you see him in the KP Dom?

 9       A.   No, I did not see him in the KP Dom.  I only saw him once at the

10    farm.

11       Q.   Did you ever happen to be in the KP Dom when this Salko Mandzo was

12    beaten and then you intervened and prevented further beatings, saying,

13    "That's not the Salko Mandzo"?

14       A.   Where all this malice comes from, how could people who were

15    yesterday your neighbours say anything like that?  Believe me, had I seen

16    anybody beat him or any other of them, I would have tried to prevent it,

17    but I would never have made such comparisons and say, "This is not this

18    one.  This is not the one that you're looking for."  But anyone -- had I

19    seen anyone being beaten, I would have tried to rescue him just as if I

20    would have done in my case or other case of a member of my family, because

21    to this day, gentlemen, I, regardless of what kind of statements those

22    people gave me before this Court, all these statements hurt me terribly,

23    and I really sympathise with them if they went through all of that, but to

24    say that I said, "No, this is not the one, don't beat him," no, I wouldn't

25    have let anyone be beaten if -- regardless of the reason for which he had

Page 7681

 1    been detained in the KP Dom.

 2       Q.   To just understand what you are trying to say, will you tell us

 3    briefly:  Were you present?  Did you see this incident?  Or is it simply

 4    not true?

 5       A.   No, quite certainly.  I'm quite positive I was not present.  I did

 6    not see that.

 7       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, when Ekrem Zekovic escaped from the KP Dom, were

 8    you still the warden of the KP Dom by the decision of the Ministry of

 9    Justice?

10       A.   The decision on the end of my term there was not in my hands, but

11    I knew that I -- that my term had run out and that I was to bring all my

12    business to an end so that somebody else could take over the duty.

13       Q.   Were the administrative personnel aware of that and other people

14    heard that you were to turn over the duty to somebody else?

15       A.   Never in my life did I want to speak about anything in advance, to

16    put the cart before the horse, so I don't think I ever -- I don't think I

17    did that on that occasion.  But I suppose that some of them must have

18    sensed it somehow.  What I did say was, "Well, I'd like to round off what

19    I have started, because the time will come when I will be relieved of my

20    office and I will have to turn over and then report what had been done and

21    what had not been done."  And I did say that to my ministry of employees

22    [as interpreted] so they could draw their own conclusions, because I had

23    already applied for resignation.

24       Q.   When Ekrem Zekovic was captured, did you see him?  Were you in the

25    KP Dom when he was captured and brought back to the KP Dom?

Page 7682

 1       A.   I did see him.  Yes, I was in the administration building.  I was

 2    walking down the passage from the upper floor towards the exit door, and I

 3    was some 20 metres away.  I wasn't aware straight away who it was and what

 4    it was all about.

 5       Q.   Did you communicate with him after he had been brought into the

 6    administration building?

 7       A.   In that part of the administration building, somebody said that

 8    two policemen from -- had brought him there.  I did not see him, but I was

 9    told the two policemen from the police station had brought him and I saw

10    them take him behind that guard booth where the guard on duty was, the

11    policeman.  And I asked, "Well, can I walk by and see him?"  And he said

12    to me that I could.  So I walked past, and I think it was the first room

13    after the guard room.  I saw him sitting on the bed.  So I greeted him,

14    asked him how was he.  He looked at me, said, "I'm okay." "Want a smoke?"

15    "I do."  So we smoked our cigarettes and had a brief conversation.  Had

16    anyone beat him?  I did not see any scars on him and he did not tell me

17    that he had been beaten, but he wanted to go and see his family.  They

18    were in Montenegro.  I think that's what he told me then.  But, well, he

19    failed, and he said, "And here I am."

20       Q.   As you had already been relieved of your office as the warden of

21    the KP Dom, was there any reason for him [as interpreted] to show fear for

22    the escape or the anger because he had escaped, or was this conversation

23    and this cigarette motivated by something completely different?

24       A.   The only fear which I had, if I ever had it, could have to do with

25    the Ministry of Justice, if I had gone wrong somewhere.  But to fear

Page 7683

 1    somebody here, no, I did not feel any such fear.  Even had I not been

 2    relieved of that duty, I had to do with those people and I had no

 3    responsibility toward them, so where would that fear come from?  I simply

 4    went to see this man in that situation, to have a smoke with him, and to

 5    see what he was like.  Because when I was told that the people from the

 6    police station had brought him, then, to be quite honest, I thought

 7    he -- perhaps they had beaten him, even though I saw him, under his own

 8    steam, walk behind that guard room.  No, I felt no fear.  It was simply

 9    the humanitarian side of man.  That is what it was about.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  That, of course, was not an answer to your question,

11    Mr. Bakrac.  You asked him whether there was any reason for the other man

12    to show fear, not the witness.

13            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  I could not follow

14    the transcript and listen to the answer.  Then it was a

15    misinterpretation.  I asked the witness if he had any reason to fear

16    because he had already been relieved of his office.  Did he have any

17    reason to fear the consequences of the escape, or if he had any reason to

18    be angry or to be enraged by this escape.  So that was it.  I did not

19    follow the transcript.  It must have been misinterpreted, and I believe I

20    received an answer to this question.

21       Q.   But I can also ask this additional question, that is:  If

22    Mr. Zekovic, who had escaped, had any reason to fear you?

23       A.   If that is the question that you are asking me now, I see no

24    reason why he should fear me, because he also knew that I wasn't the

25    person who would be responsible for detained persons.  And if you are

Page 7684

 1    smoking together, it means a pipe of peace, that we were smoking a peace

 2    pipe, so there could be no fear there.

 3       Q.   Are you aware that the next day, after the capture, or rather his

 4    detention, that the detained Muslims were lined up in the prison yard, in

 5    the KP Dom yard, and were you present on that occasion?

 6       A.   I cannot really say if it was the next day or the day after that,

 7    but I was going toward the furniture factory and I had to walk past the

 8    dining-room and that part of the playing ground where the detainees had

 9    been taken out, and in front of them was Mr. Zekovic, and I saw that

10    gathering.  And again, it's that human curiosity:  Well, and what's going

11    on now?  So I asked one of the guards, "What happened?  What is it?"

12    Well, here he said, "Savo is telling them there's been a rumour that

13    Zekovic had got killed, and he is showing them that he had not been killed

14    but that he had been captured and brought back to the KP Dom safe and

15    sound," and I just went on my way towards the furniture factory.

16       Q.   Were you standing at that time next to Savo Todovic, who was on

17    duty then?

18       A.   Well, if you can say that I was standing by him, then you can say

19    that I was standing by him then.  No, I wasn't standing by him.  I stopped

20    by this guard.  I didn't pay much attention.  He had to be not less than

21    15 metres away from me, Mr. Todovic.

22       Q.   Did you perhaps nod your head in approval of what he was saying?

23    Did you hear at all what he was saying?

24       A.   Believe me, I couldn't hear it, everything, because I must have

25    been at least 15 metres away from me [as interpreted].  Now, whether I

Page 7685













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Page 7686

 1    nodded my head or whether I held it rigid, I don't know.  But to approve

 2    what he was saying, no, I did not do that.  I did not -- I did not confirm

 3    his speech by nodding my head, by moving my head.  But as I was talking

 4    with this guard, I cannot really affirm that I never moved my head, but it

 5    did not have to do with Mr. Todovic's speech.

 6       Q.   Are you aware if there were any sanctions after that escape, if

 7    the rations were halved, and did you have any part in that?

 8       A.   Well, really.  I've repeated it I don't know how many times

 9    already, that I never had any part, and now you ask me again the same

10    thing.  I am not aware that there were any sanctions afterwards, and how

11    could I know anything like it if I at that time was already certain that I

12    had been relieved of that duty of the manager of the Drina business unit?

13    So how could I know any such thing?

14       Q.   And after that, how long did you stay in the KP Dom after that?

15    Do you remember that?

16       A.   Well, I could have stayed on for another 10 or 15 days, until I've

17    finished all the business.  I'm not quite sure.  Approximately until

18    everything was finished and until all of the papers were signed and until

19    we saw what else had been undertaken and not finished, because I hoped I

20    would hand over that duty, and I wanted to have everything ready so that

21    it could -- so as to expedite the whole procedure.

22            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, from the Defence's

23    point of view, we think this would be a convenient time to make a break.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  We'll resume at 11.30.

25  - Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.

Page 7687

 1                          --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Bakrac.

 3            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  You gave us

 4    the opportunity to talk to the accused during the break.  I would

 5    nevertheless like to ask you to move into private session so that we can

 6    put a few more questions to the accused.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  We will move into private session.

 8                          [Private session]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11   [redacted]

12   [redacted]

13   [redacted]

14   [redacted]

15   [redacted]

16   [redacted]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 7688













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Page 7691













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Page 7692

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3                          [Open session]

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  We are now in public session.

 5            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, you explained to us that Muslim detainees were in

 7    this part which was rented out to the army.  However, were these Muslim

 8    detainees taken out to do some work, and did they do some work for the

 9    Drina Economic Unit?

10       A.   Partly, yes.

11       Q.   Can you tell us how this happened that Muslim detainees who were

12    in the military part of the prison could do some work for the Drina

13    Economic Unit?

14       A.   Until now, I have been saying that I addressed Mr. Mladjenovic,

15    asking him to get some people for me to get the furniture factory going,

16    also other work units.  Mr. Mladjenovic said in response to that that he

17    would look into the matter and try to do that.  However, he did not do

18    that.  After a few days, Mr. Savo Todovic came to my office with a list in

19    his hands, and he said that he was given the task by the command to

20    compose a list of persons according to their trades who will do some work

21    when necessary within the Drina Economic Unit of the KP Dom.

22            I then asked Mr. Todovic whether these people wanted to do this

23    voluntarily or was this on orders?  He replied to me that these people

24    wanted to work voluntarily because they preferred spending their time

25    working than at the detention unit.  Then I said to him, "Mr. Todovic, you

Page 7693

 1    know better than I what the KP Dom rules are, and you know who the heads

 2    of these work units are.  So you tell them about this and I will inform

 3    them about it at the working meeting that we all have together," which is

 4    exactly what I did.  At this meeting, people said something to the effect

 5    that they needed such and such a number of men, and later, in agreement

 6    with Mr. Todovic, they took in the number of people they needed according

 7    to the trades, crafts, that these people had.

 8       Q.   Do you know, while you were at the KP Dom, where Muslim detainees

 9    worked?

10       A.   I know that four or five, it depended, six people would work at

11    the metalwork shop; five, six or seven people would work at the furniture

12    factory; and about 15, 12 to 15 worked from time to time, when necessary,

13    at the Brioni farm.

14       Q.   You mentioned that from time to time they worked at the Brioni

15    farm.  The Serbs who were serving their prison sentences when the war

16    conflict broke out, did they work, and if so, where?

17       A.   These convicted persons -- these convicted persons, who were

18    serving their sentences, except for certain individual cases, were at the

19    farm, and they also did work at the farm.  And right at the beginning,

20    Mr. Mojovic, the late Mr. Mojovic, to whom I am very grateful, took over

21    all care for these persons because he was familiar with previous prison

22    rules, because he retired from that job, and he was head of the farm at

23    Brioni.

24       Q.   Can you tell me what the Muslim detainees did at the Brioni farm?

25       A.   I cannot maintain with full certainty what they did, but I know

Page 7694

 1    that they were collecting hay, and they also went out to the meadows to

 2    cut grass and collect hay for the cows.

 3       Q.   You mentioned the farm to us now, and you also mentioned the

 4    metalwork shop and the furniture factory.  Did Muslim detainees work in

 5    any other part of the Drina Economic Unit?

 6       A.   As far as I can remember, there was a gentleman, a car mechanic,

 7    who went, as far as I know, to Miljevina.  Right now, his name has slipped

 8    my mind.  Oh, I am sorry, I am sorry.  They worked for a few days on

 9    clearing the old school in town and also cleaning the area around the

10    school, those buildings there.  I don't know whether they worked anywhere

11    else.

12       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, perhaps you did not understand me well.  I asked

13    you precisely about the Drina Economic Unit, about those buildings and

14    those areas belonging to the Drina Economic Unit where they worked.  As

15    far as I understood you, it was the metalwork shop and the furniture

16    factory and the farm that belonged to the Drina Economic Unit.  I was just

17    asking you whether anywhere else within the Drina Economic Unit they were

18    doing some work.

19       A.   At this moment I cannot remember that they worked anywhere else.

20       Q.   The Miljevina mine, does it belong to the Drina Economic Unit or

21    the KP Dom in general at all?

22       A.   Oh, please, the Miljevina mine is about 12 to 13 kilometres away

23    from Foca and the KP Dom.  That is a socially owned company.  It is not KP

24    Dom property.  They did not work there except for this car mechanic who

25    went there, as I've already mentioned.  He was taken there from time to

Page 7695

 1    time at the request of the command.

 2       Q.   While you were at the KP Dom, did detainees of Muslim ethnicity

 3    work at the Miljevina mine?

 4       A.   I assert that I am not aware of them having worked there.

 5            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence thinks that

 6    this would be a good moment -- we checked ID D111, and it is not on the

 7    list of admitted exhibits.  That is a certificate of the socially owned

 8    company of the mine of Miljevina, and also a logbook of shifts.  I know

 9    that this was discussed and I think that my learned friends had no

10    objections, but we do not have this document on the list of admitted

11    evidence.  So therefore I would like to move that ID D111 and its

12    translation, ID D111A, be admitted into evidence, please.

13            MS. KUO:  Your Honour, we did have a discussion about this list.

14    It was a list of the people who worked at the Miljevina mine.  And we, the

15    Prosecution, had an objection to the admission of the entire document and

16    instead offered the stipulation that none of the Muslim detainees worked

17    at the mine during the time that this accused was warden.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  I remember that.  Do you need the document, in the

19    light of that stipulation?

20            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Why do you need the document as well?

22            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No.  In view of the offer made by the

23    Prosecution, we do not need to have it admitted into evidence.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  They made that offer when the document was being

25    discussed, and for that reason you didn't press it.  So if it's not

Page 7696

 1    needed, let's not have it.

 2            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I do apologise.

 3    The Defence was wondering, so we wanted to clarify the matter now that we

 4    came to the issue itself.  Thank you very much.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  There is no need to apologise all the time,

 6    Mr. Bakrac.  The number of documents we have here can lead to error.

 7    That's why I'm very insistent that we have things noted in the

 8    transcript.  Anyway, it is -- the stipulation - very American phrase, if I

 9    may say so - the concession offered by the Prosecution is accepted and we

10    do not need the document.

11            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, to which extent were Muslim detainees used for the

13    needs of the Drina Economic Unit, and did they have working hours?

14       A.   Since production was not working, I don't know whether I can state

15    this in terms of percentage, but this period was mainly preparation for

16    production and perhaps to finish up some of the products that were started

17    earlier on, there was no need for a large number of people to work there.

18    As far as I know, it was usually about six or seven people who were

19    involved.

20       Q.   Did they have working hours and what were these working hours?

21       A.   They had working hours like all other employees of the Drina

22    Economic Unit, from 7.00 until 1500 hours, except that they also had a

23    break for their fourth meal, the snack, as it was called, and that lasted

24    one hour.

25       Q.   In addition to this additional meal that they had that you just

Page 7697













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Page 7698

 1    mentioned, were these workers paid for the work they did, these detainees

 2    of Muslim ethnicity?

 3       A.   Since they were -- since they belonged to the military, were under

 4    the jurisdiction of the military, I am not aware of the military having

 5    made invoices of this nature, but the KP Dom never made any payments to

 6    that effect because we did not have any resources for it either.  I know

 7    that in addition to this fourth additional meal, whenever there were

 8    cigarettes, they were given cigarettes to smoke.

 9       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, do you know whether Muslim detainees were used for

10    trench digging at the front line for the military?

11       A.   I never heard from anyone that the Muslims were used for any such

12    thing, nor am I aware of any such thing.

13       Q.   Did you hear that any of the Muslim detainees were used for

14    driving trucks in front of the Serb troops looking for mines?  Are you

15    aware of any such thing?

16       A.   I'm not aware of any such thing either.

17       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, you also said where the Muslim detainees worked

18    within the Drina Economic Unit.  Did they also work on your house, the

19    house that burnt down during the first days of the conflict?

20       A.   They did.

21       Q.   Can you tell me how many detainees were used for that work and

22    what kind of work was it?  What did they do?

23       A.   I don't know exactly how many people there were all the time, but

24    as for the work involved, I know that they were working on the house

25    roof.  That is to say, they protected it from further dilapidation, and

Page 7699

 1    also they cleaned up the rubble that was there from the house itself.

 2       Q.   Can you tell us how come this happened that persons of Muslim

 3    ethnicity who were detained at the KP Dom worked on such jobs at your

 4    house, as you mentioned just now?

 5       A.   Towards the end of 1992, perhaps a month or two before the end of

 6    1992, I went to the municipality to see a man who was in charge of

 7    displaced persons and refugees.  I asked him to find some material for me

 8    in some way, either plastic or tarpaulin, so that I could cover the

 9    remains of my house so that I would protect it from further dilapidation.

10    He said to me then,"Milorad, right now there is no such material, but I'll

11    see whether I can find that somewhere, and if I manage to, I'll let you

12    know."  He did not inform me as to whether he had found this material, but

13    one day I heard that somebody took people to prepare material for covering

14    my house, which had burned down in April 1992.  Who decided this, I don't

15    know, but I know that there was a civilian defence staff attached to the

16    municipality, so it is most probably the municipality and the civilian

17    defence staff that decided on this.

18       Q.   Did you pay people who worked on your house?

19       A.   This work on that house, I did not pay.  Nobody sent me a bill for

20    that work.

21       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, we had a witness here who said that a metal

22    staircase had also been done there.  Did the detainees from the KP Dom

23    also build a metal staircase in your house?

24       A.   Apart from the metal staircase, two doors were also -- two metal

25    doors were also made in the KP Dom, but these two metal doors and that

Page 7700

 1    staircase were made of material that I had bought at the warehouse of the

 2    Maglic company.  So that it was only the manual work involved in making

 3    the staircase and those doors was performed in the KP Dom, and according

 4    to the bill, it was paid to the Foca KP Dom.

 5       Q.   Did these detainees of Muslim ethnicity do any other work on your

 6    house apart from what you've told me?

 7       A.   Well, this skeleton, if I may call it that, speaking about this

 8    staircase, because they did not have any steps.  It was only the metal

 9    frame that the steps were to be affixed to later and those landings in the

10    house.  And there was surplus labour at that time as they were covering

11    the house, and there was one well-known welder there.  And in agreement

12    with my son, who was there, he made corrections, or rather, the

13    straightening of the metal structure in the coffee bar which had also

14    burnt down and which was part of the bar, the bar, you know, where you

15    serve drinks.  So he straightened this and welded it.  No other work was

16    done.

17       Q.   We spoke just now about the work done on your house which had

18    burnt down.  During the examination-in-chief you already told us that you

19    had moved to a hotel about a month after your house had burnt down.  Could

20    you tell us, until when did you live in the Zelengora Hotel?  Do you

21    remember that?

22       A.   Well, was it a month or a month and five or ten days?  Well, be

23    that as it may, around about a month.  After that incident, we moved to a

24    hotel and we stayed there, not because we wanted to, but we stayed there

25    until sometime in August, perhaps give or take a day.  But that was until

Page 7701

 1    August, roughly speaking, August 1992.

 2       Q.   And where did you go after that?

 3       A.   Well, I said it wasn't that we wanted to leave the hotel, but

 4    simply, as is well known already -- you know what happened to my sons.  So

 5    on one occasion when we returned in August, or maybe early August - I'm

 6    not sure - when we returned from Belgrade, a man who worked in the hotel,

 7    the janitor, he said, "Milorad, your things had been moved.  The key had

 8    been taken and the room was let to other refugees, and the municipal

 9    authority had given you a flat for temporary use elsewhere."  "So where is

10    it?"  He says, "I don't know, but your nephew will know."  So with my

11    wife, I went back to Cerezluk and asked Momir Krnojelac what happened, and

12    he said that they had moved me to the flat which belonged to Dr. Ibro

13    Sosevic.  No.  Excuse me.  Ismet Sosevic.

14       Q.   Was that also temporary accommodation?

15       A.   Yes, that was temporary accommodation too, and I wasn't really

16    happy about it, but nothing else could be done at the time.  However, I'd

17    like to say here that this same gentleman, Sosevic, offered me, as early

18    as late May, a flat to move into it, because he knew that my house had

19    burnt down, but at that time I just thanked him and said I had no

20    intention of moving, because I was hoping that all those people who had

21    been temporarily accommodated would go back to their homes any minute, so

22    I didn't want to.  But then it just so happened that I returned, or

23    rather, that I moved into his flat, and that flat was the property of the

24    KP Dom.

25       Q.   Let us just clarify one thing.  You say that in late May Sosevic

Page 7702

 1    offered this flat to you.  Which year?

 2       A.   1992.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, sir, if before you were arrested and brought

 4    to The Hague, but after moving into Ismet Sosevic's flat, did you try to

 5    get some assistance from the Ministry for Displaced Persons and Refugees,

 6    some assistance that would help you return to your own house?

 7       A.   After all the tragedies and misfortunes in my family, my only wish

 8    was to -- even with all these tragic cases, to go back to my hearth, to go

 9    back to my home.  So naturally I communicated several times.  I went to

10    the municipal hall and all over the place trying to get some help to

11    perhaps reconstruct the basic thing so as to return to my homestead, which

12    was very dear to me, even though -- even at this distance, I can feel the

13    smoke and I can sense that it had burned down, so I wanted to go back

14    there.  I really wanted to, but it was not possible.

15            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence would like

16    to propose to cut this short, not to show Mr. Krnojelac this request.  It

17    was Defence Exhibit ID D110 of 30th of July, 1996, sent to the Ministry

18    for Displaced Persons and Refugees, and its translation, 110A.  We would

19    like to tender those two documents into evidence.

20            MS. KUO:  No objection.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  They will be Exhibits D110 and D110A.

22            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, in the course of this case, we spoke a great deal

24    about the -- about your two sons, and I do not think it is necessary to go

25    into those details again.  What I should like to know is whether, after

Page 7703













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Page 7704

 1    the wounding of your sons, after their sufferings, when they were

 2    transferred to the hospital, when they went in Belgrade -- when they went

 3    to Belgrade, did you also go to Belgrade, and how long did you stay

 4    there?

 5       A.   Does one need to ask a parent if he went to see his child?  Yes,

 6    of course I did.  I did go, the very next day after their departure.  I

 7    went with my wife and my son and my brother and his wife and his son, to

 8    see if they were alive or not, because it was a matter of life or death,

 9    so we had to go.

10       Q.   Do you remember how long did you stay in Belgrade, as far as you

11    can remember?

12       A.   Well, had you asked me at that time what my name was, I don't

13    think I would have been able to tell you, but believe me, we stayed --

14    well, it looked to me like a month, it was so hard on me, but we stayed

15    there in point of fact for about 10 or 15 days, as far as I can remember.

16    Those were very hard days.  You go for a visit in the morning, you expect

17    a nurse or a doctor to tell you your son is not among the living any more

18    because he's from -- because he was taken from Foca with one leg and one

19    leg had been amputated in Foca.  And as soon as he arrived in Foca [as

20    interpreted], his second leg was amputated because his state had

21    deteriorated.  And then on the other leg, it had also deteriorated, so

22    that it was all sheer horror even to think about it, let alone talk about

23    it.

24       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, you were present here when witness Desanka

25    Bogdanovic and her husband testified before this Court.  They testified

Page 7705

 1    about the -- about how a car was provided and assistance to some persons

 2    of Muslim ethnicity, and they said that this departure was on the 1st of

 3    July, and that a few days before that, you had communicated.  Do you agree

 4    that it was then on the 1st of July, and did you tell your friend about

 5    the sufferings of your sons and that it had happened immediately after

 6    that?  Was she aware of that?  Did you let her know, since you were close

 7    friends?

 8       A.   It is true that my colleague Desanka asked me if I could do it for

 9    her, and that I did it, but it could not have happened on the 1st of July,

10    since the suffering, that is -- it wasn't only one human being or two who

11    suffered there.  There were nine of them dead, eight severely wounded, and

12    the whole of Foca knew about this tragedy and misfortune.  And it happened

13    on the 22nd of June, when they were -- when it befell them.  And it could

14    have happened, I think, as far as I can remember, sometime in May, June,

15    beginning of, sometime thereabouts.  It couldn't have happened later,

16    because to help at that time, when you couldn't help yourself, it is even

17    -- it is mad to even think about it, even though my colleague had had

18    her -- that, ill as she is, because I know what she has been suffering

19    from since 1982, I need -- I'm grateful to her for coming to testify here

20    but that is not the date.  I'm certain about it, because under those

21    conditions, I couldn't help myself, nor could I think about myself.  I was

22    thinking about the tragedy that had struck me because that was a much

23    greater tragedy than the burning of the house and the property.

24       Q.   Let me just clarify.  You said it happened, to your recollection,

25    in the beginning of June.  What is it that happened in the beginning of

Page 7706

 1    June?

 2       A.   That help.

 3       Q.   You mean to those women of Muslim ethnicity?

 4       A.   It happened in early June that I did it at her request, and asked

 5    this man who lived in the vicinity of Scepan Polje and frequently passed

 6    by, so that he was the best man I could select, knowing the ground,

 7    knowing the people at the checkpoint, that he looked the most suited man

 8    to do it.  So I asked him and he said, "Sure, Milorad, because I needed to

 9    go one day anyway to see my parents."  And he lived nearby, in the

10    vicinity of Scepan Polje.  Pekovici, that's what his village was called.

11    So that it happened at that time.

12       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, during the examination-in-chief, you already

13    mentioned the International Red Cross.  Did they -- and if they ever came

14    to see you and would they announce their visit to you?

15       A.   No, they never announced their visits to me.  And why did they

16    drop by once?  I wouldn't know.  But we had a cup of coffee as friends and

17    talked a little bit about it, and I even asked if they had any remarks to

18    make, any comments, as regards food, and they said, well, that there

19    should be more fruit, because they had passed through orchards in the

20    neighbourhood.  But I told them that these orchards, to my knowledge, had

21    been mined and that is why they could see lots of fruit.  And so when they

22    asked about the detained persons, they also asked who was responsible,

23    rather who was competent, to give some information about those persons.

24    And when I discussed it with gentlemen from OTP, I did not give them the

25    name because I hoped that they would -- that they would find that record

Page 7707

 1    and maybe they had it, because at that time I gave the full name of the

 2    man who was there present on behalf of the military.

 3       Q.   Did they come several times or was that their only visit?  And do

 4    you remember when did it take place?  When was it that the International

 5    Red Cross came?

 6       A.   Believe me, I cannot remember, but it -- I think that it was only

 7    once, but I cannot remember when it was or the year or anything.  This is

 8    the fourth year I am here and 1992 was a long time ago.

 9       Q.   Do you know if the prisoners of Muslim ethnicity were hidden from

10    the International Red Cross, at least on that occasion when they had

11    dropped by to see you?

12       A.   Thank you for reminding me.  Because I said then I knew that a

13    group of people had been out to the meadow to mow the grass and make hay

14    stacks and I said, "Please, there is a group collecting hay, so if you

15    want to see them, then I'll come with you," to show them where they are.

16    And they said, "No, no, no, no need to."  And I know about no other

17    concealment because when they said that there was no need to do it, then

18    that was that.  Whether anybody else was hiding somebody else, I wouldn't

19    know.

20       Q.   And when they went to collect hay, it was for the Drina Economic

21    Unit, is it?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And do you know if some people were hidden in the bakery, hidden

24    from the eyes of the International Red Cross?

25       A.   I never had any such information, nor am I aware of that, except

Page 7708

 1    that it was said here in court, but over there, I wasn't aware of it.

 2       Q.   You just told us that after you were sent the documents of your

 3    relief, that you had some business to attend to, to finish.  So how long

 4    after that did you stay in KP Dom, and do you remember -- if you do

 5    remember, when was it that you left the KP Dom?

 6       A.   To my recollection and conviction, I stayed there until the end of

 7    July, except that I wasn't there in the KP Dom every day because at that

 8    time I went to the farm and to Maglic to compare -- to settle all the

 9    obligations that we had, all the mutual obligations, and I think therefore

10    that it was in the end of July that I left the KP Dom, of 1993.

11       Q.   After that, did you come to the KP Dom from time to time, or

12    didn't you come to the KP Dom?  And if you did come to the KP Dom, how

13    often did you come?

14       A.   To get rid of such a hard job for me -- I wasn't particularly keen

15    on going back there again, but I did drop by on two or three occasions.

16    Yes, I did.  On one occasion, I happened to be there when the Red Cross

17    was there too.  As I remember, that I told them that I wasn't working

18    there, that I wasn't employed there any more, and a pretty lady asked me,

19    "So what do you do now?"  And I smiled at her and said, "Excuse me, but

20    that is true.  Well, I'm looking at you."

21            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Will the usher please help me to show

22    you the exhibit of the Prosecution, PP3.

23       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, this is the list of persons under labour duty in KP

24    Dom between April and October 1994.  Under number 3 is, if I am

25    correct - but you may correct me - is your name and your date of birth; is

Page 7709













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Page 7710

 1    that correct?

 2       A.   It is my name, my father's name, last name, and the year, that is,

 3    the date of birth.  Correct.

 4       Q.   It says here that your labour duty lasted from the 18th of April,

 5    1992, until the 8th of September, 1994.  Is this correct?

 6       A.   The correct is -- the 18th of April, 1992 is the correct date, but

 7    this other date, 8th of September, 1994, is not correct, and shame on the

 8    one who wrote it.  I did not work at the KP Dom until that date.  I worked

 9    there until the month of July or, say, June, the whole of June 1993.

10       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, since you did not work anywhere until September

11    1994, could it be that, for reasons of social security or something, this

12    date was put until you moved to another institution which would then be

13    responsible for your social and health insurance?

14       A.   Well, by statute, that is how it should have been, until you find

15    another job, another employment.  Then, for the purposes of social

16    security, one should remain on the records.  That is, one is laid off, put

17    on a waiting list until another job is found for him.  So it is possible

18    that that is how it was done in this case.

19       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, further down this list, that is, in the part which

20    relates to you as a temporary warden between the 18th of April until the

21    17th of July, 1992, a Ministry of Defence decision; is that correct?

22       A.   Yes, it is, because that was my title: temporary warden of the

23    business unit, that is, KP Dom.

24       Q.   And the 17th of July, 1992, when you were issued the decision of

25    the Ministry of Justice?

Page 7711

 1       A.   I believe that is when the decision was delivered to me.  I'm not

 2    quite sure about the date.  But yes, most probably it was the 17th of

 3    July.  I suppose you do have this decision, whether you found it.  Where

 4    could it be?

 5       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, it says here the Ministry of Defence.  You said

 6    that the order came from the executive board.  Now; is that correct?

 7       A.   I received this order from the president of the executive board of

 8    the municipal assembly of the municipality of Foca.  And here, well, this

 9    is slightly murky.  I can't see it really.  But I was given this order.  I

10    did not get any other certificate.  Whether the administration received

11    any other document or not, I wouldn't know.

12       Q.   From the 18th of April, 1992, until the 17th of July, 1992, when

13    you were given this decision passed by the Ministry of Justice, did you

14    have anything to do with the Ministry of Defence and the military command?

15       A.   Before the war broke out, and after that, after this armed

16    conflict broke out, I had nothing to do whatsoever with the Ministry of

17    Defence or the military command until I came to work at school in 1994.

18    Then I had an obligation vis-a-vis the Ministry of Defence.  Please, I

19    would like to highlight something at this point.  That is why no one from

20    the Ministry of Defence could send me to the front line, or anywhere else,

21    because I was an employee of the Ministry of Justice.  They would have

22    sent me to the front line at some point had I been appointed by the

23    Ministry of Defence.  That is why they sent me later to the lines as a

24    principal of the school.

25       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, with the assistance of the usher, I would like to

Page 7712

 1    show you Prosecution Exhibit P446, please.  This is a list of military

 2    conscripts.  That's what it says here:  "Members of the unit of the KP Dom

 3    Foca, October 1992."  And finally, it bears the signature of Milorad

 4    Krnojelac, warden.  Can you explain this to us?  What kind of document is

 5    this?  And did you draft it?

 6       A.   I did not draft this document.  I am aware of this document.  The

 7    only thing I object to is the first name, Milorad, son of Bogdan,

 8    Krnojelac.  It says here KOM battalion.  This is not my handwriting.  This

 9    is not the list that I drafted.

10            Gentlemen, not only in the KP Dom, but in all other enterprises as

11    well, the Ministry of Defence wanted to find out which persons are there

12    who are capable of military service so that they could have accurate

13    records of persons who are capable of military service.  In addition to

14    that purpose, this list was also compiled because there were some persons

15    from the KP Dom who were working throughout the KP Dom, and there were

16    persons who were working -- or rather, going to the front line, that is to

17    say, as military conscripts.  It says here the number of days and the

18    number of days for combat allowance.

19            This list was compiled by the gentleman who was in charge of it on

20    behalf of the military command, Mr. Savo Todovic.  He said, "Milorad, sign

21    this for me so that the people who are not getting salaries here could at

22    least get some kind of compensation, some parcels, et cetera, and from

23    time to time they go to the lines to do their military service."  So this

24    unit, if that's what we can call it - it says "unit" here - never came to

25    life in any other way during my stay at the KP Dom.  It is very

Page 7713

 1    interesting that there are people here who are not able-bodied, but that

 2    had to be proven by decisions passed by the commission later, et cetera.

 3       Q.   I would like to clarify something which is obviously illogical.

 4    It says:  "List of men liable for military service, members of the KPD

 5    unit."  And then it says, in handwriting:  "Milorad Krnojelac, battalion

 6    commander."  Did you have any military role while you were at the KP Dom?

 7    Did you go to the front line?

 8       A.   All my previous roles, and this rank, Captain First-Class,

 9    disappeared much earlier, before the conflict, the armed conflict actually

10    took place.  So there was no unit at the KP Dom.  There were only the

11    security guards of the KP Dom that were appointed by the Ministry of

12    Defence.  I assert that with full responsibility.

13       Q.   What is the reason for your name to be on this list, then?

14       A.   I told you that I didn't make the list.  However, already at that

15    time I was a person liable for military service.  So you can look at it

16    from that angle.  The ministry wanted to find out how many persons who are

17    liable for military service are where, and that's why my name is there,

18    and then some great friend added this title to my name as well.

19       Q.   So it is not correct that in October, all these persons spent 31

20    days at the front line.  That is how I understood you, because that was

21    the reason why combat allowance was supposed to be paid.

22       A.   If that were correct, as stated in this document, then nobody

23    would be providing security and nobody would be in the Economic Unit, at

24    their jobs there, if they were on the front line for 31 days.  So that is

25    an absurdity too, which proves that that was not possible and that that

Page 7714

 1    was not what could have happened.  That is why I say that the main purpose

 2    of this was for the Ministry of Defence to know how many people liable for

 3    military service were where; that is to say, persons who were treated as

 4    being fit for military service.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, you said that you stayed at the KP Dom until the

 8    end of July.  The next year, were you at some position?  Did you have a

 9    job?  Did you work somewhere?

10       A.   I did not hold any post, any position.  I did not work anywhere.

11    I was looking for a job.  But from time to time I did some work.  I went

12    to my brother's place in the country and I did a bit of farming work.  And

13    in the apartment, when I was not working, I would be reading books,

14    waiting for time to pass, and waiting for someone to call me to go to work

15    somewhere.  And my lot was to wait to get a job in the schooling system,

16    to do the job I was trained for and that I studied for, because for me it

17    is a great honour to be a teacher.

18       Q.   If you were in the military structures, would you, after a

19    decision was passed on the cessation of your employment as warden of the

20    KP Dom by the Ministry of Justice, wouldn't you have found yourself doing

21    a military job in some military structures?

22       A.   Could you please repeat that question?  I'm so sorry.

23       Q.   After the Ministry of Justice released you from the position of

24    warden of the KP Dom, if you belonged to any military structures, would

25    you remain just the way you did, in the street, or would the military have

Page 7715













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Page 7716

 1    found some job for you?

 2       A.   My personal opinion is that I would have been found a new job the

 3    very same day.  I would not have remained jobless for a year.

 4       Q.   When did you get a job, and where, and how, after you stopped

 5    working at the KP Dom?

 6       A.   After a very difficult job, I got another very difficult job,

 7    against my will again.  Again, it was done by decree.  They appointed me

 8    principal of a school, a school in the town of Foca, which was working,

 9    and another school had joined it, an elementary school, this elementary

10    school being 45 kilometres away from Foca.

11            In the meantime, nine buildings started to function, one

12    eight-year elementary school and six four-year elementary schools.  I

13    don't want to sing my own praises, but that in itself shows what a great

14    effort had to be made for these schools to start working in these hilly

15    and mountainous areas where there were three to 15 students in all four

16    grades.  It was very difficult.  I don't want to take up the valuable time

17    of this Court, but until the day I was kidnapped [phoen - LiveNote

18    originally read "kidnapped"], this went on.

19       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, let's go back to when you left the KP Dom.  When

20    you left the KP Dom, was a director of the Drina Economic Unit appointed,

21    and if so, can you tell us who this was?

22       A.   The letter, the list, we had a few minutes ago, shows that a

23    warden of the KP Dom was appointed and also an assistant or rather deputy

24    warden was appointed, and also that director was appointed of the Drina

25    Economic Unit, where I had been, and that is Mr. Radojica Tesovic.

Page 7717

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Bakrac, your client has just asserted that he was

 2    "kidnapped."  He made the same suggestion during the course of the

 3    interview by the Prosecution.  I want to make it absolutely clear that

 4    unless there is some specific application being made in relation to his

 5    arrest, we propose to ignore that.  I can understand his views about it,

 6    but nevertheless he wishes to assert it.  I want to know whether we have

 7    to do anything about that.

 8            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you've noticed, the

 9    Defence counsel has been ignoring that with due respect to the accused,

10    precisely from the point of view of what you have just said.  I don't want

11    the accused to misunderstand me, but the Defence is ignoring this along

12    the lines of what you have just stated.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm grateful to you for having said that, and that's

14    cleared the matter up.  Thank you.

15            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, I just wanted to ask you something.  Before you

17    were arrested and brought here, after being director of the Drina Economic

18    Unit, did Mr. Radojica Tesovic move on to another position within the

19    municipality?

20       A.   Since I was principal of these schools, and I still had to be in

21    contact with the municipality and cooperate with them - it wasn't only

22    through my own effort but it was also through the efforts and the

23    influence of the municipality that all of this was made possible - I

24    needed to have contacts.  And I know that Mr. Radojica Tesovic was in the

25    municipality; he was president of the executive committee.

Page 7718

 1            As for this word, I'll have to try avoiding it now.  I got used to

 2    saying it that way, the way I said it, because I can't really call it an

 3    arrest.  I call it kidnapping [phoen].

 4       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, I'll ask you about that.  You'll have an

 5    opportunity to explain.

 6       A.   I'm so sorry.  All right.

 7            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday, the Defence

 8    received an Official Gazette of Srbinje of Foca from 1997 which shows who

 9    the president of the executive committee is.  We gave it for translation

10    immediately but we haven't made copies yet.  So perhaps we could give this

11    document an ID D number until the translation arrives.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  What number are we up to in ID D numbers?  We could

13    mark it simply for identification, which would be the simplest way, I

14    think, and you can worry about it later.  We are up to number 13 marked

15    for identification.  This is in B/C/S, the document you have?

16            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  It's in B/C/S, and

17    we have immediately given it for translation and we said that this is

18    urgent for the Defence, and we hope that by the end of this week, it will

19    have been translated.  We will give the Prosecution a copy so that they

20    can have a look.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  They are more fortunate than most of us; they

22    have access to somebody who can translate for them.  But the document will

23    be marked for identification, 13.

24            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, could you please just tell me whether at the time

Page 7719

 1    when Mr. Tesovic became president of the executive committee of Foca, the

 2    national parties were still in power in Foca, and do you know who then won

 3    in Foca, which parties won the election in Foca then?

 4       A.   I heard that -- well, yes, national parties were in power, yes,

 5    but I heard that the Serb Radical Party had won, if I'm not mistaken,

 6    their president was Mr. Veljovic, Ljubo, Ljubomir.  And the other one was

 7    the SDS party, where Mr. Tesovic was secretary -- no, not secretary,

 8    president of the executive board there.

 9       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, before you came to The Hague, did you have any

10    contact with any persons from SFOR or representatives of the international

11    community?

12       A.   With all non-governmental organisations, I did have contact, and I

13    also had contact with the representatives of SFOR, I think they were

14    representatives of SFOR.  At any rate, it was officers who were coming.

15       Q.   Did you introduce yourself to these persons by your own name and

16    surname?

17       A.   Always by my own name and surname.  Once, as a matter of fact, the

18    OSCE - I don't know whether it was 1996 or 1997 - at a meeting somebody

19    was supposed to arrive from Pale for this meeting.  So while we were

20    waiting, we were served a bit of coffee and a bit of brandy, and a person

21    gave us a piece of paper.  There were three principals who were there, the

22    principal of the elementary school Sveti Sava, the director of the high

23    school, and I.  They gave us a piece of paper and they said, "Please write

24    down your full name and surname and the school where you work."  Without

25    thinking, all three of us wrote down our full names and surnames and the

Page 7720

 1    schools where we worked, and we handed this over to the person who had

 2    asked us for it.

 3            As for other organisations, non-governmental, there were quite a

 4    few visits that were paid to my school.  As a matter of fact, one had to

 5    do with the repair of schools and assistance to schools.  I hoped that

 6    everything would be right, and I asked for four extra classrooms to be

 7    made at the Veselin Maslesa school, and they supported that and said that

 8    a project, a design, should be made for this.  And of course they asked

 9    me, "Why do you need four more classrooms?"  And I said, "Well, tomorrow

10    or the day after tomorrow, some day when people who moved out will start

11    coming back here, they will bring their children, and we will need

12    additional classrooms for more children."  So that was the project that we

13    wanted to carry out.  And usually they asked us how many employees were

14    there, what the average salary was, et cetera, so we talked.

15            As for SFOR, they came to me a few times, a gentleman came, a

16    major.  His name was, I think, Hans Thieme.  He worked in Lukavica.  He

17    had an interpreter of his own, and once he came without an interpreter, so

18    he talked to the English teacher from our school and he said that this

19    teacher had a very good knowledge of the English language.  And once he

20    came with a general, a general who came to replace him, and by that time

21    he was no longer a major.  They told me that he was promoted to

22    lieutenant-colonel.

23       Q.   Did you introduce yourself to this person by your own name and

24    surname, Milorad Krnojelac?

25       A.   Yes, yes.  And as a matter of fact, he brought presents for the

Page 7721













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Page 7722

 1    children quite often:  balls, teaching aids, cookies even for the school

 2    kitchen.  The school kitchen was working so he even brought cookies.

 3       Q.   Did he leave his card with you and his details, even his home

 4    telephone number and the address of his permanent residence in Germany?

 5       A.   I must admit that the gentleman introduced himself as a biology

 6    teacher and that he joined the military, and when talking to Vukovic, it

 7    turned out that Vukovic had already been to Germany with a group of pupils

 8    and members of the culture and arts society in Foca, and he said, "Perhaps

 9    the time will come again for you to go to Germany again.  So here is my

10    address."  And I think he wrote down the telephone number of this place

11    where he lived too, and he also gave me his card.  And I had it in my

12    writing pad.

13            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, document ID D109 is a

14    photocopy of the calling card and of the address that the witness has just

15    been referring to, and we would like to suggest that ID D109 and the

16    translation, 109A, although the translation is not really needed, be

17    entered into evidence.

18            MS. KUO:  No objection.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  It will be Exhibit D109.  We will adjourn now until

20    2.30

21                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.





Page 7723

 1                          --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Bakrac.

 3            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 4       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, before the break we were talking about where you

 5    communicated with members of international -- with representatives of the

 6    International Community and if you ever gave them your full name.  Will

 7    you tell us:  At the time when you were arrested and brought to The Hague,

 8    another identity card was found on you with your photograph but a

 9    different name.  Will you please explain the reasons for this identity

10    card.  Why did you have it and what did you intend to do with it?

11       A.   Cooperation and communication with non-governmental

12    organisations.  Those meetings discussed visits to other places and

13    schools, and in view of education itself and the situation in the

14    territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was said that somebody should

15    invariably be sent to those workshops or meetings.  But as a

16    principal -- and all three of us present there, we were promised such

17    cooperation.  And one of the first of those meetings which was to be held,

18    when I informed my staff about it, they did not like it, nor were they

19    particularly keen on attending such meetings.  And then I said to them,

20    "Well, if you won't go, then I promised, and I will keep my word, so I

21    will attend them."

22            The first meetings, as far as I recollect, took place in Gorazde,

23    and two lady colleagues of mine went there.  They had already worked there

24    prior to the armed conflict.  They went to Gorazde.  The second meeting

25    was to take place, I think, in Teslic or wherever, but nobody went, even

Page 7724

 1    though a lady colleague of mine had promised that she would go.

 2            So on one occasion, as we were partaking of coffee in a company,

 3    we discussed this.  Meanwhile, all sorts of things had happened, and we

 4    learnt that in the capital of BH, in Sarajevo, some people were captured

 5    and arrested.  And during that conversation - it was after the Dayton

 6    Accords and all - my wife's family came and talked, and they said the same

 7    thing, that some newspapers -- that the press commented that Milorad

 8    Krnojelac had been the warden of the KP Dom and that, as they saw

 9    it - they were in Sarajevo - more people from other areas than genuine

10    Sarajevans.

11            As we talked about this, I told this whole story to this company I

12    had, and one of them said, "Well, Milorad, is there a problem?  If one has

13    to go to Sarajevo or somewhere else, and if one has to spend a night

14    there, then it can be solved."  And I sort of joked and said, "Well, yes,

15    sure, it can be solved, because I think that no man who knows me as

16    Milorad Krnojelac from before, even if he had been in the KP Dom, there's

17    no reason why I should fear any such man, nor do I expect him to wrong me

18    in any way."  That was my conviction and my belief.

19            That man, who said to me that there would be no problem, and

20    during this conversation, nevertheless - and I learned that later - was a

21    man who was attached to the Ministry of the Interior.  And believe me, I

22    think somewhere deep in my heart that what happened, happened because when

23    it happened in late 1997 and early 1998 that a pupil who was on duty

24    brought me a blue envelope, and in this blue envelope was this other

25    document.  And when I opened it and looked at it, I was aghast.  What do I

Page 7725

 1    need this for?  This is my photograph, but these particulars are not

 2    mine.  And at that moment, that is how - please listen to me - that is how

 3    I happened to have both my genuine identity card and that forged identity

 4    card, and that is how it happened to be in my purse.

 5            I'd like to say straight away that as soon as I was put in the

 6    car, in a van, with my hands tied and with opaque glasses put over my

 7    eyes, after that -- I don't know.  These are moments, it's difficult to

 8    say, but it could have been 5, 6, or 10 minutes later, when they asked me

 9    over a device what was my name.  They asked me in Serbian, and I

10    immediately said, as I always do, "My name is Milorad Krnojelac."  "Who is

11    your father?" "My father is Bogdan Krnojelac."  "Fear nothing.  You've

12    been suspected of war crimes and you're under arrest."  And that is all as

13    regards this document and as regards how it happened to be in my pocket.

14            I claim that I did not show this document to anyone, not even to

15    my family, because I didn't see -- I didn't think it was important.  I

16    thought that somebody was pulling my leg with it.  I simply thought it a

17    trifling matter.

18       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, I'd like to ask the usher to help me to show you a

19    document which is -- which has already been admitted - it is D108 - of

20    15th of May, 1998, addressed to IPTF Srbinje.  We discussed SFOR, and this

21    document is of the 15th of May, 1998, that is a month before your arrest.

22    This document was sent to IPTF.  Are you aware of this document and is

23    there your signature on this document?

24       A.   Yes, this is my official signature.  And here is gospel truth for

25    you.  I wrote this to them because, to my knowledge, you had to report if

Page 7726

 1    you were going to cross the federation territory, and this is where it

 2    says, transfer of 13 pupils, five teachers and eight Hidrogradnja workers,

 3    because it was Hidrogradnja week, and the driver was Mr. Visnjic, and via

 4    Sarajevo, it went to Modrica because Hidrogradnja was transferring its

 5    workers and agreed -- they were taking them for their summer holidays, and

 6    it also took along those pupils for a competition in Modrica.  So that

 7    this is my signature and this was done hastily right before the departure

 8    in the morning.  As the bus was about to leave, it is then that it was

 9    typed and sent to the addressee that is IPTF.

10            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  We shall not need

11    this document any more.

12            Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions in point of

13    fact for Mr. Krnojelac.  However, during the break, I gave the OTP this

14    fragment from the Official Gazette that I had referred to, and my learned

15    friends made a constructive suggestion, that is not to wait for a

16    translation but merely to stipulate; that is, that I should read this

17    decision in two sentences and the OTP agrees that this is what the

18    document says, so as not to have to wait for a translation to tender it.

19    And if the Chamber agrees, then we can do it straight away.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  That seems a very sensible proposal, but before you

21    do, can we just have on the record what IPTF stands for, please?  It's the

22    previous document, the one that Exhibit D108 --

23            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, IPTF is an acronym.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  For what?

25            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It is the acronym for the -- for an

Page 7727













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Page 7728

 1    international organisation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it is the

 2    international police in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the United Nations police

 3    force.

 4            MS. KUO:  Perhaps I can assist.  It's the International Police

 5    Task Force.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you very much.  Very well, Mr. Bakrac, you read

 7    that document so that it can be recorded, and the Prosecution can then

 8    indicate that it accepts that is what it says.

 9            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.

10            "The Official Gazette of the Municipality of Srbinje, number 5,

11    page 4, 8th November, 1997.  Pursuant to Article 20 of the Statutes of the

12    Municipality of Srbinje, Official Gazette of the Municipality of Srbinje

13    number 4/97, the assembly of the Municipality of Srbinje at its session

14    held on the 7th of November 1997, adopted the decision on the election of

15    the president of the executive board of the Municipality of Srbinje.

16    Radojica Tesovic is elected the president of the executive board of the

17    Municipality of Srbinje.  This decision shall be published in the Official

18    Gazette of the Municipality of Srbinje, number 01/I-022-52, Srbinje, 7th

19    of November 1997.  Mayor of the Municipality, Ljubo Veljavic."

20            JUDGE HUNT:  To complete the record, that was the document which

21    was marked for identification 13.

22            Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

23            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, yes.  The document

24    that we identified as ID 13.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Not ID 13, but don't worry about it.

Page 7729

 1            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I believe -- I don't know which

 2    number.  The 13 was the identification number but --

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  Don't worry, don't worry.  Now, have you got any more

 4    questions?

 5            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, no.  Only I do not

 6    know if the Prosecution needs to say for the transcript, for the record,

 7    that they have no objections against this document.

 8            MS. KUO:  We have no objection to what Mr. Bakrac just read into

 9    the record.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  Yes, Ms. Kuo?

11            MS. KUO:  Your Honour, I've just asked the usher to move the ELMO

12    because it's directly in my line of vision.  That's fine for now.  Thank

13    you.

14                          Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

15       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Krnojelac.

16       A.   Good afternoon.

17       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, based on the evidence that we've heard, and also

18    your having testified today in court, it's clear that you're a friendly

19    and charming person.  Would you agree with that description, all modesty

20    aside?

21       A.   Please, will you hear what I have to say?  I know that I am a man

22    of a reality that I like my job and I'm fond of my family, and as for the

23    charm and all the rest, thank you, but no.  Not even when I look at myself

24    in the mirror, I don't see that.

25       Q.   You enjoy being with other people, right?

Page 7730

 1       A.   In any event, every good man, without distinction, regardless of

 2    anything else, yes, I like every good man and I like to be in his

 3    company.

 4       Q.   Before the war, when you were a teacher, you had many friends and

 5    knew people in Foca, right?

 6       A.   I don't really know what it means "many," but I did have quite a

 7    number of friends, and I think that I have quite a number of friends to

 8    this day, not in Foca alone, in other places too, because just about a

 9    month or two ago, I received from Belgrade school called Veselin Maslesa a

10    list with 50 signatures saying their hello to me.

11       Q.   We don't need to get into details like that.  I'm asking you a

12    series of questions which should have "yes" or "no" answers, and if you

13    need to explain it, that's fine, you'll be given that opportunity, but

14    things will go much quicker if you simply agree or disagree, and then we

15    can move on.

16            When -- before the war, you heard the witnesses describe you as

17    being a popular teacher, and you would not disagree with that description,

18    right?

19       A.   That is what they think.

20       Q.   Having taught in the Foca elementary school for over two decades

21    you knew a lot of students as well as their parents, because they had been

22    your pupils, right?

23       A.   Right.

24       Q.   You knew and were friendly with Muslims, Serbs, and Croats without

25    distinction, right?

Page 7731

 1       A.   Right.

 2       Q.   And you got along with everybody, right?

 3       A.   With everybody who was of goodwill and of whom I knew that they

 4    were people of goodwill.

 5       Q.   You never got into fights or arguments with anybody, right?

 6       A.   Never in my life did I have a quarrel or a fight with anyone.

 7       Q.   So, sir, it would be fair to say that you wouldn't be able to find

 8    anybody from Foca who would say anything bad about you without any basis,

 9    right?

10       A.   Even if tomorrow the whole population of Foca who had left

11    returned to Foca, I believe that only then would they tell the real truth

12    and they wouldn't have said anything bad about me.  But they are not back

13    there yet, and could have heard here from some people perhaps some ugly

14    thought, perhaps they might have thought that it was so, but if all the

15    Muslims were to return there, I do not think that a single Muslim would

16    say an ugly thing about me, because they knew me before.  That is what I

17    think.

18       Q.   Sir, while you were a teacher, you were not known among the school

19    administrators as somebody who created trouble, right?  You simply did

20    your job?

21       A.   Definitely, definitely so.  I never with anyone on the staff did I

22    have a quarrel.  I'm not saying that there were not different opinions,

23    but we would always engage in a process and arrive at a joint solution.

24    It never happened that I would be -- I was always on speaking terms with

25    all the teachers, always, and I'm referring to the period as of 1973

Page 7732

 1    onward.

 2       Q.   It's fair to say that before the war, you had a comfortable life;

 3    a good job, a good family, and you were happy, right?

 4       A.   Well, did I live well?  I never lived well.  Because I was a

 5    teacher and my wife another teacher, and we were also building our home,

 6    so we couldn't really live well, because, I beg your pardon but I have to

 7    tell you truth, and I'm ashamed that I have to say that, but it was only

 8    as late in 1972 that I saw the sea for the first time, that is together

 9    with my children.  So it wasn't a good life, if prior to that, one

10    couldn't have a honest holiday, to see the sea, to taste the sea, to taste

11    it and reassure oneself that it was really salty.  But my greatest

12    happiness was that my family lived in harmony and I also together with my

13    family lived in harmony.

14       Q.   While you were a teacher, the headmaster was above you in the

15    school structure, right?  He was basically your boss?

16       A.   Every institution - and that includes teaching establishments,

17    that is, school - a principal is the head.  He's the manager who runs his

18    business responsibly.

19       Q.   And it's fair to say that the principal then, as well as now,

20    makes more money than the teachers, right?

21       A.   I don't know how many times I thought that I wouldn't give my

22    leisure time, that is, after the school hours, for anything -- for this 5

23    or 10 per cent supplement to your salary, because imagine a teacher who

24    comes at a quarter to 8.00, classes begin at 8.00, then he has the

25    instruction until 11.30 or perhaps until half past 12.00, and then goes

Page 7733













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Page 7734

 1    home and looks after his own business, and imagine a principal who comes

 2    at a quarter to 8.00 and can leave the school at 3.00 or 4.00.  I mean,

 3    the difference, this supplement to the salary, this bonus, is just too

 4    small if you think about it in terms of the time that you spend there and

 5    the problems.  Because if you understand what I'm saying, if a window is

 6    broken or if a desk is broken in the classroom, the principal has to start

 7    thinking about where to get the glass, how to replace it, how to paint,

 8    how to replace a destroyed wastepaper basket or something else.  So the

 9    salary plays a minor role in all this for somebody to aspire to become a

10    principal, and that is why in elementary schools, and even in high

11    schools, very few people apply for posts of principals.  And I never

12    wanted to do it, nor would I ever want it, even if I were 30 now rather

13    than 61.

14       Q.   So what you're saying is it's a trade-off between getting a higher

15    salary as a principal and the greater degree of work and responsibility

16    that come with it, right?

17       A.   Well, a much greater responsibility, but that greater

18    responsibility did not mean an adequately high salary.  And when I enter

19    the classroom, I laugh at the children and I instruct the class the way I

20    hold instruction the way I know how to do it.  I do not pretend that I am

21    the best teacher, but to teach mathematics -- all of you who are parents

22    here will know that children will say that maths is the worst thing of

23    all, but mathematics is, as a matter of fact, the nicest subject of all,

24    only you have to know how to teach it.

25       Q.   Let's again try to keep focused.  I understand that you have a lot

Page 7735

 1    of commentary on some of the things that we're addressing, but it will go

 2    much easier and much faster if we just stay focused on the questions and

 3    get an answer.  I've tried to understand what you've said, and I think

 4    that what you're saying is, in answer to my question, that yes, the

 5    principal does make more money.  You've given an explanation for why you

 6    don't think it's worth it, but the answer is still yes, right?

 7       A.   The salary is low and the difference is too small, and it is much

 8    really better to complete with the teaching, with the instruction, to

 9    finish the classes and get back home.

10       Q.   Among the duties of the principal, as well as the teachers, is

11    taking care of the children while they're at the school, right?

12       A.   It is their duty to look after them while they are in school, but

13    a true teacher must also know what they do outside the school.

14       Q.   Especially at the age when they're in primary school, when they're

15    very young and vulnerable, right?

16       A.   It has never been, nor can the school ever be, the only educating

17    and upbringing factor, because there are several things which have a role

18    there: family, the street, and only then the school.

19       Q.   If you, as the teacher or principal, saw a student being beaten on

20    the premises of the school, you would report that, right?

21       A.   When I saw somebody beat a child, be it on the street, I'd come up

22    to them and tell them that they must not do it, and people who knew me

23    would listen to me.  But there were -- but they came from another school,

24    so they fled and did not obey me.

25       Q.   If you saw a student who had come to school with bruises on his

Page 7736

 1    face, you would investigate to find out where he got those bruises, right?

 2       A.   Since the first teacher who is in contact with a student, the

 3    teacher in the classroom, that teacher has to treat his students

 4    seriously, and then, if this is a serious matter, then the teacher takes

 5    the student to the principal, and then the principal is supposed to

 6    investigate and see what was going on if that was not already done by the

 7    home-room teacher or the teacher involved.

 8            With your permission:  Every class has a home-room teacher - you

 9    probably know that - and that home-room teacher in that class is the main

10    teacher and tries to resolve all the problems; and then if that teacher

11    cannot resolve all the problems, then that teacher informs the principal

12    of all of this, and then the principal takes action on the basis of law.

13       Q.   So while you were at the school, you knew precisely whom you would

14    report to if you saw something happening that you disagreed with.  That

15    was very clear to you, right?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Now, you talked about how you were never involved in politics.

18    That's true, right; you were never, ever politically active?

19       A.   Never politically active, except for those obligations that I had

20    in the organisation where people sometimes would have to hold a certain

21    post that was rotated.

22       Q.   You mean a position within the school as a teacher, that kind of

23    thing, right?

24       A.   As a teacher, and then in the school there would be a workers'

25    council, there would be trade unions.  So it's these organisations.  And

Page 7737

 1    then also the basic organisation of the League of Communists attached to

 2    the school, and these organisations that rotated within the school itself,

 3    involving the teaching staff, of course.

 4       Q.   You described how you were a member of the League of Communists,

 5    but your membership was not politically -- out of political conviction but

 6    simply because 90 per cent of the teachers were also members, right?

 7       A.   Only because, after all, a colleague should not say, "If I'm a

 8    member of the League of Communists, why are you not a member?"  I had no

 9    other interest involved.

10       Q.   In other words, you did not want to be one of the 5 per cent who

11    was not a member of that overwhelming party, right?

12       A.   Well, not only this 5 per cent.  I said majority.  In the school

13    in Zavait, for instance, everybody was a member, everyone, except for me.

14    That was the school in Zavait where I was admitted in 1973.  All of them

15    were members of the League of Communists; all the teachers, that is.

16       Q.   You didn't like being the only person who was not a member, right?

17       A.   Well, there was no reason for me to be some kind of an exception

18    or to be different.  We were all teachers there.  If you allow me to say

19    so, it was a one-party system.  But, you know, at that time it was useful,

20    because there was peace and there was freedom and there was good life and

21    there was co-existence and there was brotherhood and unity amongst all the

22    nations and nationalities, and until then I had not known of any other

23    system.

24       Q.   That kind of harmony started to disintegrate in 1991 and 1992,

25    gradually, in Foca, right?  You started to notice that there were ethnic

Page 7738

 1    tensions?

 2       A.   Well, as soon as Focatrans started, as soon as the rebellion broke

 3    out in Focatrans - I'm sure you know about it, so not to tire you with all

 4    the details - when that started, then from day to day things started

 5    getting more tense and worse than they were before.

 6       Q.   And as you lived in Foca and taught at the school, you noticed

 7    these things affecting even the school, right, that there were tensions?

 8       A.   I would not agree with you that there were tensions in the

 9    school.  On the contrary.  We often talked, as teachers and educators,

10    that it is the greatest poison for teachers to be members of nationalist

11    parties, because we give parents a pretext for attacking teachers on the

12    basis of the grades, for instance, that are given to a particular child.

13    Then the parent can say, "That teacher is a member of such-and-such a

14    party and I'm a member of another party, so he hates my child and gives

15    him a poor grade."  So in school, this was not obvious in any way until

16    the very last day.  While we were working, we were a unified group,

17    irrespective of ethnic background:  Serb, Muslims, Croat, Montenegrin,

18    whatever.

19       Q.   Did you hear from students what their parents were saying at home

20    about nationalistic tendencies?

21       A.   I don't want you to misunderstand me.  All sorts of things were

22    heard, from home and from the street.  There was a poem that was written

23    by an MP in Sarajevo, and that created a lot of unrest, because even young

24    children were singing that song in the street.  And regrettably, this

25    surprised a lot of people.  I don't know whether it's important for me to

Page 7739













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Page 7740

 1    say that now, but that is Mr. --

 2       Q.   We don't need the details of it, but I'd like to ask you:  When

 3    your students expressed these kind of nationalistic feelings, you didn't

 4    speak out against them, did you?

 5       A.   In school, and even in the school yard, this could not be

 6    displayed, believe me.  Let me tell you about this song, for instance.

 7    This song was heard in the streets:  A duck and a goose are swimming in a

 8    stream.  This country will become Turkish.

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note.  It rhymes in the original.

10       A.   People thought that this was some kind of -- it was a playful

11    thing.  Nobody could really take it seriously.  And all the students knew

12    what their teacher's criteria were.  And in the school and in the school

13    yard, such things were not noticed.  And there weren't any arguments or

14    physical fights among them, no, no, until what happened, happened, because

15    the children appreciated and respected their teachers and their school.

16    What they did at home, nobody had the right to ask about that.  According

17    to law, you could not ask a child what the parents were talking about at

18    home, et cetera.  So you could only say, "Have you studied?  Have you done

19    your homework?  Are you prepared for our lessons today?"

20       Q.   You told us earlier that the teachers were not politically

21    involved because they were professionals, but it's true that people of

22    other professions were politically involved very early on, like doctors

23    and psychiatrists, even professors, right?  High-ranking members of the

24    nationalistic parties came from those professions; wouldn't you agree with

25    that?

Page 7741

 1       A.   I told you about our school.

 2       Q.   My question wasn't about your school any more.  I understand what

 3    you've told us about your school.  But I just wanted to ask you the

 4    question about people who were involved in nationalistic parties who were

 5    not in your school but did come from similar professions, like being a

 6    professor or being a doctor.

 7       A.   I did not keep such company.  I did not socialise with such

 8    persons.  I can't tell you anything about it, therefore, because I'm not

 9    aware of that.  But probably, on the basis of everything that could be

10    seen, it did exist.

11       Q.   And one person whom you've mentioned quite frequently by name,

12    Mr. Mladjenovic, he was a teacher also, and at the same time politically

13    involved, right?

14       A.   He was a teacher, a biology teacher, I think, and he was appointed

15    president of the executive council a lot earlier, a lot before all of this

16    happened.  I think that he was appointed president of the executive

17    council even before the parties were established.  I'm referring to the

18    nationalist parties, that is.

19       Q.   He was also appointed as a member of the Crisis Staff on April

20    3rd, 1992, right?

21       A.   I can swear to you by all that I hold dearest that until they read

22    it here, I did not know a single member of the Crisis Staff, who the

23    members of the Crisis Staff were.  Believe it or not, but I can say before

24    God and all men and this Honourable Court that I did not know who the

25    members of the Crisis Staff were.  If you told me, "We'll let you go home

Page 7742

 1    immediately if you give us all the names of the members of the Crisis

 2    Staff," I would have had to say, "But I can't," no matter what would

 3    happen to me.

 4       Q.   Sir, no one is asking you to give us the names.  Your lawyers have

 5    put in as evidence on your behalf a full list of the Crisis Staff members,

 6    and I assume that you're not disputing that.

 7            There was a -- you've talked about the conduct -- your conduct

 8    within the school, but outside the school, you also never spoke out

 9    against the nationalistic parties, did you?

10       A.   I had no such cases.  I had no need to speak out.  I never

11    attended their meetings, so I couldn't say anything on that basis.

12       Q.   There was a peace party for Yugoslavia formed at some point in

13    reaction to the nationalistic parties; isn't that right?

14       A.   I don't know which party you're referring to.  If you are

15    referring to the party that consisted of family members coming from mixed

16    marriages, I don't know, but I don't know which party you are referring to

17    right now.  A peace party?  I've never heard of a peace party.

18       Q.   The party that you refer to, you weren't a member of that one

19    either, right?

20       A.   No.  I keep telling you that I was not a member of any party.  I

21    didn't even know all the parties that existed.  You just mentioned this

22    peace party.  I never knew of the existence of such a party.  I don't even

23    know the names of all the parties that existed.

24       Q.   A few days before the war broke out in Foca, there was a rally of

25    people who were against the nationalistic parties and against the ethnic

Page 7743

 1    tensions, right?

 2       A.   That rally was not even held in the true sense of the word.  My

 3    son went in the evening, somebody called him around 9.00, and there were

 4    about 20 or 30 persons there - at least that's what he told me, if you're

 5    referring to that rally - and he came back very soon because there were

 6    very few people there.  That's what he told me then.

 7       Q.   You did not attend that rally that was against the nationalistic

 8    parties, right?

 9       A.   Please, that was not said then, and nobody asked me, and I was not

10    informed of any such rally.  My son, it was precisely Bozidar, my son

11    Bozidar, who told me that he happened to attend that meeting.  It is my

12    impression that it was -- it just happened to be convened.  It wasn't

13    organised really.

14       Q.   But in other words, there were people who were actively involved

15    in Foca in opposing the nationalistic parties, but you were not one of

16    those people, right?

17       A.   I'm not aware of that, that they were meeting.  I could not meet

18    up with them then or could I socialise with them when I didn't even know

19    that they existed.

20       Q.   Sir --

21       A.   May I?

22       Q.   Go on.

23       A.   I can tell you one thing, that with a great friend of mine, a

24    Muslim friend, I said once when we were talking before the war, that I

25    would set myself on fire in the middle of the square if that would prevent

Page 7744

 1    war from breaking out, and then he said to me, "Milorad, it's too late for

 2    us, even if we were both to set ourselves on fire."

 3       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, you were friendly with many prominent members of

 4    the Foca community, right?

 5       A.   Well, I knew some, not all:  the president of the municipality,

 6    the president of the executive council, the director of the hospital, the

 7    principals of schools, also some managers of some companies.  I can't say

 8    that I didn't know all these people.

 9       Q.   And among the people that you knew were -- you knew Vojo

10    Maksimovic, who was born in Foca, right?

11       A.   He was not born in Foca.  He was born in Cvilin, that is by

12    Ustikolina, about 12 kilometres away from Foca.  Vojo Maksimovic did not

13    live in Foca.  He lived in Sarajevo.  I knew him very little.  I wouldn't

14    have known him but -- well, it's hard to say now.  In that system, MPs

15    were elected, and then one of the MPs elected by the citizens of Foca, or

16    on behalf of the citizens of Foca, was him.

17       Q.   You also knew Velibor Ostojic, right?

18       A.   Velibor Ostojic, I knew him only through the media.  I knew that

19    he existed, because he lived in Sarajevo too, as far as I know.

20       Q.   There were times when Mr. Ostojic came to Foca, right?

21       A.   Probably.  Possibly.  I might have seen him only once during all

22    that time, perhaps in 1993, at the end of 1993, beginning of 1994.  It's

23    only then I think that I met Mr. Ostojic.

24       Q.   Mr. Ostojic was in the government of the Serbian Republic of

25    Bosnia and Herzegovina, right?  That was his position?

Page 7745













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Page 7746

 1       A.   I heard he was.

 2       Q.   And Mr. Maksimovic, whom we spoke about just a minute ago, was a

 3    member of the Crisis Staff in Foca, right?

 4       A.   On the basis of the documentation that my Defence presented here

 5    before this Honourable Court, I found out that he was.

 6       Q.   You were seen attending an SDS rally in Foca, just before the war

 7    broke out.  You've heard that testimony, right?

 8       A.   I am sorry, a wound inflicted by a knife heals faster than a wound

 9    inflicted by words.  The man who said that committed a sin, because I

10    maintain that that statement is false.  I did not attend, ever, a single

11    nationalist rally of any party.

12       Q.   There is not somebody in Foca who looks just like you, for whom

13    you could have been mistaken, right?

14       A.   I personally think that this man just wanted to be mean to me.

15    It's not a case of mistaken identity or something.  I don't know.  I did

16    not notice or no one told me something like, "This person looks like you,"

17    or whatever.

18       Q.   You can't think of any reason why that particular individual would

19    want to be mean to you, right?

20       A.   There is no wheat without chaff.  There are such people among the

21    members of any nation.  There are persons who can, under pressure or

22    whatever, commit that kind of sin, saying something like that.  I don't

23    even mind that he said it.  Perhaps somebody else talked him into saying

24    it.  May God be his judge in terms of such statements.

25       Q.   You talked about how it was safer for teachers not to be openly

Page 7747

 1    involved in politics.  It was also safer for your career not to rock the

 2    boat, so to speak, and speak out on controversial topics, right?  It's

 3    better for your career to keep quiet and just do your job?

 4       A.   A teacher's main task is to educate and bring up younger

 5    generations, and the best thing is if everyone does his own job.

 6       Q.   You've mentioned your wife and the fact that she's a Croat.  The

 7    fact that she was a Croat didn't have any effect on your position in the

 8    school, even just before the war broke out, right?

 9       A.   Well, she had no reason to affect me or did I have any reason to

10    affect her, because we had a fine marriage, an exemplary marriage,

11    although we belonged to different ethnic groups.  We had a common kindness

12    and a common intention, and that is to bring our children up properly, and

13    you first have to be clear as far as your own intentions are concerned.

14       Q.   The question wasn't about the nature of your relationship.  We've

15    heard, and it's undisputed, that you had a very good relationship with

16    your wife.  The question was:  The fact that you were a Serb and that she

17    was a Croat did not have any effect on your career, even in the midst of

18    all the ethnic tensions, right?

19       A.   What kind of career is this, please?  Could you please explain

20    this to me?

21       Q.   You were able to continue teaching at the school right up until

22    the day that war broke out, right?

23       A.   Yes, yes.

24       Q.   And you weren't turned away from any positions or you didn't get

25    any worse treatment at the school simply because your wife was not a Serb,

Page 7748

 1    right?

 2       A.   Nobody treated me any worse.  They had no reason to treat me any

 3    worse.

 4       Q.   There was no reason for you to believe that the fact that you were

 5    married to a Croat would have any adverse consequences on your life in

 6    Foca when the war broke out, did it?

 7       A.   I had no reason to think about that.

 8       Q.   Just before the war broke out, there were people who were fleeing

 9    Foca, right?  It was possible to leave Foca, if people were scared?

10       A.   I heard that there were some from both one and the other that were

11    leaving Foca.

12       Q.   In fact, among the students, you saw that some children were being

13    kept out of school or being taken out of school by their parents, right?

14       A.   Not that they got them out of school, but it was obvious that less

15    children were coming to school than in the previous days, but they did not

16    dis-enrol them from the school.  They were still registered in the school

17    and they were absent, some were absent.

18       Q.   Did you, sir, have any reason to be afraid and to want to flee

19    Foca?

20       A.   Even when gunpowder was already felt, a person would think that it

21    was folly and that it would not actually happen, because you would rely on

22    people's minds and you would hope that they would come to reason, that

23    this was a folly.  And so on the one hand, you had this wish for peace and

24    freedom to remain, you'd think that this would happen and that there was

25    no reason to go anywhere.  And where could one go when Bosnia is Bosnia to

Page 7749

 1    Mujo and to Milorad and everyone else?

 2       Q.   Your parents had a house in the countryside in Birotici where you

 3    were born, right, about 12 kilometres from Foca?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   If you wanted to flee Foca, you could have gone there, right?

 6       A.   I told you that I lived in the hope that that would not happen at

 7    all, and that's why I didn't leave.  And on the other hand, that house is

 8    quite dilapidated and old.  It was built sometime in 1935, around 1935,

 9    before the Second World War.

10       Q.   I understand that you've told us you did not have any reason to

11    leave, but if you had wanted to leave, one possibility that was open to

12    you was going to your parents' house, right?

13       A.   I did not feel the need to go because I was hoping that this would

14    not happen.

15       Q.   I know you didn't feel the need.  My question was, simply, if you

16    had wanted to flee, there was an option open to you, right?  You do not

17    need to say again that you don't -- we understand that you didn't need to

18    flee, but if you had wanted to, your parents did have a house 12

19    kilometres away?

20       A.   I could have left, but we all could not have slept in that house.

21    There were so many of us, my family, my brother's family.  We'd have to

22    sleep out in the meadow because it's a very small house.

23       Q.   Did you also have family in Belgrade?

24       A.   Not family, but acquaintances and friends, yes.

25       Q.   And I understand that when your wife was in Belgrade for a month

Page 7750

 1    or so when your son was sick in -- or in the hospital in July, that she

 2    was able to stay in Belgrade with friends and acquaintances.  Was that

 3    correct?

 4       A.   Both she and the girlfriend, or rather my son Bozidar's fiancee,

 5    they were at our friend's, or rather at our student's, who at the same

 6    time is my brother-in-law's nephew, that is his brother's son.

 7       Q.   Sir, when the war broke out, you were living in Donje Polje, you

 8    told us, and because of the Green Berets and the danger that you saw, you

 9    moved your family temporarily to Cerezluk, right?

10       A.   Right.

11       Q.   You didn't leave until the 11th of April, which is about three

12    days after the fighting broke out, and during those three days it

13    certainly must have occurred to you and your family that at some point it

14    might be a good idea to leave, right, before you actually did go?

15       A.   I have to admit that at that moment some fear had already set in.

16    There was fighting.  Negotiations were underway.  And meanwhile, we saw

17    regrouping of people.  So at that moment, yes, some fear began to take

18    shape, and I guess one could not overcome it, because a man realised that

19    he had been wronged, and so a decision was taken in a split second:  Let's

20    get away.

21       Q.   And yet you claim that your family left the house with not a

22    single bag or change of clothing; is that what you're telling us?

23       A.   That is exactly how it was, because they hoped they would return

24    in no time; that is, that they would be back the next day, that it would

25    all stop.  One still hoped that evil that happened would not happen.

Page 7751













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Page 7752

 1    Well, you know, people, crazy people.  That's what they thought, and

 2    then ...

 3       Q.   You've described to us how your house burned down, but not

 4    everybody's house burned down, right?  I mean, it was quite exceptional

 5    that your house burned down, and everybody knew that.

 6       A.   I wouldn't say it was exceptional, because if houses are burning

 7    above it, above the road, then it's only logical for them to burn below

 8    the road.  Whether today or tomorrow, there was nothing exceptional about

 9    it.  And as soon as one went up in flames, those two that were Ilija

10    Radovic's, and the other one, as soon as one was on fire, the other one

11    had to be on fire too, because they were so close.  They were wall to

12    wall.  There was nothing exceptional about it.

13       Q.   There were many people in town whose houses did not burn down,

14    right?

15       A.   Yeah, sure.  Yes, right, because there were parts of the town

16    where not a single house burnt down.

17       Q.   Among those people whose houses did not burn down were friends of

18    yours who were able to give you clothing, right?

19       A.   Gentlemen, if one could put on any shoes or any clothes, then

20    there would be no need for tailors, for cobblers, or for ready-to-make

21    clothes.  Mr. Pera [phoen] gave a coat.  But you saw my unfortunate son,

22    how big is he and how big am I.  What I can wear, he can't, and that is

23    why there is the ready-to-wear industry and tailors who can make, at least

24    approximately, something that one can wear that will suit him, at least in

25    size.  You can wear some underwear which perhaps is a number too large or

Page 7753

 1    too large [as interpreted], but you can't wear clothes like that,

 2    especially not clothes that are too small for you, because one not -- I

 3    can't say that people didn't give, but one could not use it, simply

 4    because of all these things, that it is very difficult to fit.  I'm a

 5    difficult man, so it's difficult for me to fit into other people's clothes

 6    or other people's footwear.

 7       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, you had enough clothes given to you by other people

 8    so that you had a constant change of clothing, right?  Not an extensive

 9    wardrobe, but certainly enough that you could get by.

10       A.   Gentlemen, you should understand and be -- and realise what I

11    mean.  At that moment, people didn't get together.  Everybody was

12    engrossed in his own trouble.  It was only later, much later, that one

13    could get something from somebody, because when every day somebody gets

14    killed, when every day there are funerals and you attend funerals day in

15    and day out, then you don't think about:  Oh, yes.  Milorad has nothing to

16    wear, so let's take some clothes to him.  It was the time of war, and

17    people communicated little because of all those wartime conditions.  You

18    really should understand me when I say that.

19       Q.   You had enough civilian clothes that you could always wear

20    civilian clothes when you travelled to Montenegro, as you told us, right?

21       A.   I had enough civilian clothes at home and in my house, but it

22    burnt down, together with the house.  And as for the rest, I had a pair of

23    trousers, and they were even far from properly fitting.  Of late, I had

24    never worn them to work.  Those were the trousers that one wore at home

25    and around home, not -- and nevertheless, I had to wear them travelling to

Page 7754

 1    Serbia and Montenegro.  And I was simply too ashamed to say, "Listen,

 2    everything I had burnt down.  Give me a coat or give me trousers so that I

 3    have something to wear."  It is too difficult.  One cannot even think of

 4    it, let alone go and ask for it, or think that it might happen to one.

 5    Perhaps you won't believe me when I say that even that suit which I had

 6    here in the courtroom, even that was not mine.  That was a gift to me.

 7    But that was a gift that I received when I visited a school in Belgrade in

 8    1997, when I went to Belgrade, because one could not buy it; one couldn't.

 9       Q.   I'm not talking about 1997, and please try to stay on track.

10    You've told us that you were travelling very often to Montenegro during

11    this time when you were at the KP Dom, right?  Just a yes or no.

12       A.   Travelling, yes.

13       Q.   And you've also told us that whenever you travelled to Montenegro,

14    you had to wear civilian clothes, right?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   So it's fair to say that you had enough civilian clothes to enable

17    you always to be able to wear civilian clothes when you went to

18    Montenegro, right?  There wasn't a time when you were forced to wear

19    military clothes when you went to Montenegro, was there?  You were always

20    able to comply with that.

21       A.   That esteemed suit was always one and the same.  There were those

22    civilian clothes that I had -- I mean, I had only this one suit.  I didn't

23    have different suits, civilian suits.  And that is why it was always one

24    and the same civilian suit.  Then that is why one would put on army

25    trousers or army jacket to go to work to the KP Dom.

Page 7755

 1       Q.   What I don't understand, sir, is why you had enough civilian

 2    clothes that you could travel as extensively as you did to Montenegro, and

 3    yet you're telling us that you were forced to wear military uniforms to KP

 4    Dom.  No one forced you to wear those military trousers to the KP Dom, did

 5    they?

 6       A.   Excuse me.  How can you ask me anything like that?  Because this

 7    suit, I could wear this suit, and whenever I travelled, I travelled in

 8    that same suit; that is, that same pair of trousers.  So it wasn't

 9    different suits and different pairs of trousers; it was those selfsame

10    trousers that I escaped from the KP Dom, that is, from my home.  I didn't

11    have enough civilian clothes that would fit me.  I had only this one and

12    the same, just as I come here now, that I'm here in the Tribunal.  I

13    always wear the same clothes.  I've worn this suit the whole of May, and

14    yet another one I had, but I always wear this.  I don't have a different

15    suit for every day.

16       Q.   Sir, again, again, please don't get off the subject.  We're not

17    talking about the suits you're wearing to Court today.  We're simply

18    talking about back in 1992 again, okay?  You heard your son testify that

19    at that time there was a shortage of military uniforms, so that even

20    though he was a soldier, he often had to wear civilian components, like a

21    shirt or trousers, right?  You heard him say that.

22       A.   My son, because he's so well built as he is, he could not wear

23    army clothes because he couldn't find his size.  But I couldn't wear

24    something else again because I'm too small and I am slightly built.  But

25    that I had any civilian clothes, I don't know where did you get this

Page 7756

 1    information from.  I'm telling you.  If you don't believe me, then I don't

 2    know how to prove it to you.

 3       Q.   Let me ask you this, then:  You said that when you travelled to

 4    Montenegro on KP Dom business, you had to wear civilian clothes.  Who told

 5    you you had to wear civilian clothes?

 6       A.   To begin with, I could not cross the border if I was in a

 7    uniform.  And secondly, on one occasion, and I'd say precisely toward the

 8    end of 1992, when Mr. Mladjenovic saw me in a soldier's blouse, he said,

 9    "Milorad, you're a civilian warden.  Why are you in that shirt?"  And I

10    answered, "Well, when you buy me or give me your own, because, you know,

11    that man's house and all in it burnt down, then I'll wear civilian

12    clothes."  And he said, "Oh, so sorry.  I had forgotten that everything

13    you had had burnt down."

14       Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that whether

15    a person wears civilian clothes or military clothes sends a certain signal

16    about his status?  That was the concern that Mr. Mladjenovic expressed to

17    you, right?  You would agree with that basic premise?

18       A.   I do not care at all what a man wears, but what he has within,

19    what soul that he has and how does he treat others.

20       Q.   Sir, I'm not asking a question about how you regard it; I'm asking

21    about the signal that you send by the clothes that you wear.  You would

22    agree with me, wouldn't you, that whether a man wears a uniform, a

23    military uniform, or civilian clothes, sends a certain message to the

24    outside world about his status?

25       A.   Personally, I think that at that time in Foca, nobody paid or

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Page 7758

 1    could pay any attention to it.  People wore whatever they could lay their

 2    hands on.  Because in Foca there were a number of refugees and everything,

 3    and believe me, people wore what they could lay their hands on, what they

 4    stumbled upon, what they could put on and use it, and I see no reason in

 5    it -- I see no reason for all this disbelief, for you not to trust me what

 6    I just told you.

 7       Q.   Is it so, then, that during this time in Foca, the line between

 8    civilian and military was not very clear; it was all mixed up?

 9       A.   It was mixed up.  It was mixed up.  It really was mixed up, in

10    every respect, as regards clothes and footwear.  Because when in a town

11    all the shops that were quite decently stocked before the war, when all

12    this merchandise disappears overnight, then especially, and since there

13    were many people whose houses had burnt down and so many refugees and

14    there were all sorts of things there, that is, people who were dressed as

15    they had never been or never will be dressed, and one hopes that it will

16    stop eventually, even in the Balkans, so that things that keep going on

17    stop going on, and that people will be able to wear something else.

18       Q.   Let's move off the topic of clothing and move to housing.  You

19    testified that you were at the Hotel Zelengora for more than a month and

20    that after you came back from Belgrade, you found that you had suddenly

21    been moved to the flat of Dr. Sosevic, right?

22       A.   We spent more than a month in the hotel, more than a month, that

23    is, the whole of June and July and part -- perhaps a few days in August,

24    or who knows how many.  But be that as it may, we moved to the flat of --

25    Dr. Ismet Sosevic's flat in August.  He was -- he had tenancy rights

Page 7759

 1    there, but we had been issued with an authorisation to live in it

 2    temporarily.

 3       Q.   Mr. Sosevic used to work at the KP Dom as a doctor, right?

 4       A.   Mr. Ismet Sosevic was attached to the regional centre in the

 5    hospital, and perhaps - that is, now and then - perhaps he went to work in

 6    the KP Dom, because he was a radiologist.  So he went to the KP Dom

 7    because they had the x-ray equipment in the KP Dom.

 8       Q.   What happened to Mr. Sosevic during the war that his apartment was

 9    available for your family's use?

10       A.   All I know is that Mr. Sosevic's children attended school and that

11    we knew one another well, because he attended parents' meetings, but what

12    happened to him, believe me, I do not know.  All I know is that he lives

13    in Sarajevo at present, or rather I heard that he lived in Sarajevo,

14    because when my wife moved out of that flat, then through a friend, she

15    sent him -- she sent him certain things, some paintings, some --

16       Q.   Sir --

17       A.   -- a CG device, and that was it.

18       Q.   You don't need to get into that.  The question was what happened

19    during the war.  Let's not keep shifting the time frame.  What

20    neighbourhood was Dr. Sosevic's flat?

21       A.   It was near my school, in Gornje Polje.

22       Q.   And you and your family stayed there throughout the war; is that

23    right?

24       A.   We stayed there -- that is, I set off from that flat to work, to

25    the school, when I was -- well, I dare not say what they did to me.  And

Page 7760

 1    my wife moved to her flat in 2000, but don't hold it against me if I'm

 2    wrong there.  I think it was the year 2000.  No, I'm quite sure, yes,

 3    because I know that it was then when we talked about it, she had not moved

 4    into it yet.

 5       Q.   Sir, you're shifting the time frame, and we need to focus;

 6    otherwise we will be here forever.

 7       A.   I'm sorry.  I am sorry.

 8       Q.   When the --

 9       A.   I'll try.

10       Q.   When the war broke out, your sons joined the Serb cause as

11    volunteer guards at the reservoir, and you did not try to discourage them,

12    right?

13       A.   My sons were all of age, and at those times, we were not always

14    together, so that I could not dissuade them, and they could take their own

15    decisions.

16       Q.   In fact, it's fair to say that you were proud of them for

17    defending your people from what you believed was an attack, right?

18       A.   I did not see it as an attack.  I did not see it as a defence.

19    And I was only proud that I had sons, not that they were participating in

20    one or the other or any.

21       Q.   You -- your son Bozidar, and actually your son Spomenko as well,

22    were living with you and your wife at that time, weren't they?

23       A.   They were living with us whilst we were in the house, and when we

24    left the house, they no longer lived with us, because by that time, they

25    had already left with their relatives to guard the water reservoir.

Page 7761

 1       Q.   What I mean is that when your family moved to Cerezluk to be with

 2    your brother's families, your sons were still with you, and it was from

 3    there that they went to do guard duty at the reservoir, right?

 4       A.   They went because we had also left to other people's house, so

 5    when sons, that is relatives, go, they went with them.  Nobody asked me,

 6    "Shall we?"

 7       Q.   You knew that your sons were going to do guard duty at the water

 8    reservoir, in other words, and you didn't try to say anything, that they

 9    were doing something wrong, right, as a father?

10       A.   Listen, it was -- it was a state of war, and to give orders to

11    young people when there is a war, one is not easy.  You should understand

12    that.  They went out, they left, I never even saw them leave, and you

13    heard them, what they said when they came home, because next to that

14    reservoir they had a house where they met.  Perhaps they drank there and

15    made merry, and without me having an inkling as to what they were doing.

16       Q.   Let me ask you how you felt about that.  You agreed with what your

17    sons were doing, right?  Not what you said to them.  But you basically

18    agreed with what they were doing?

19       A.   I did not agree basically as to why that had happened, and if I

20    disagreed with that, how could I agree with anything else?  If I was

21    unhappy about the armed conflict taking place, then how can you say that,

22    that I agree with my child going to war and getting killed?  If

23    politicians went to war, I guarantee that there would never be another

24    war.

25       Q.   Sir, at the time that your sons went to the water reservoir, they

Page 7762

 1    went as volunteers.  Nobody drafted them and made them go.  And they went

 2    in defence of the Serb cause against the Muslim enemies.  You agreed with

 3    that action, right, that they should help the Serbs against the enemy

 4    Muslims who were attacking?

 5       A.   Excuse me, but on what grounds do you say that I agreed, when I

 6    say that I was not happy that that war had broken out, let alone that my

 7    sons had gone there?  And you are now putting it to me that I had agreed

 8    with it.

 9       Q.   I'm asking it as a question, and I take it that you simply

10    disagree with it.

11       A.   I did not agree.  That is the proper question.  And what you said

12    a moment ago, excuse me ...

13       Q.   In your mind at this time, the Muslims were the enemies or had

14    become the enemies, right?

15       A.   To this day I do not see them as enemies, believe me.

16       Q.   I'm not asking about to this day.  I'm asking you about at that

17    time.  When the war broke out and it was Muslims against Serbs, didn't you

18    think that the Muslims were the enemies?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   When your sons were guarding at the water reservoir, they were

21    issued military -- I'm sorry.  After they were at the water reservoir and

22    when they joined the military, up until the middle of May, they were still

23    living with you and your family in Cerezluk, right?

24       A.   Well, whilst we were in Cerezluk, they were already at the

25    positions up there, Preljuca or wherever.  I didn't really keep track of

Page 7763

 1    all those positions that they went around.  I do not know that to this

 2    day.  I only know where they were wounded.  And knowing then that they

 3    would come to Cerezluk with those relatives, with those cousins.  As soon

 4    as they leave the positions, they come to Cerezluk, and after that, we

 5    were in the hotel, so they came to the hotel after we'd moved to the

 6    hotel.

 7            MS. KUO:  Your Honours, it's time.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  We will resume again at 9.30 in the morning.

 9                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

10                          4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday the 27th

11                          day of June, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.