Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7887

1 Thursday, 28 June 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is case number IT-97-25-T,

7 the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.


9 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]

10 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

11 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krnojelac.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphones are off.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Would you turn the witness's microphones on, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

16 MS. KUO:

17 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, at the end of the day yesterday, I was asking you

18 about your knowledge of things going on around town and you wanted to know

19 what specifically I meant, so I'll ask you some specific questions today.

20 You knew that the mosques in Foca were all being destroyed, right?

21 A. It was obvious that they were destroyed; yes, one could see that.

22 Q. And you also knew that Muslim men were being rounded up and taken

23 first to Livade and then to the KP Dom, right?

24 A. Well, those in KP Dom, them I saw. And as for those in Livade, I

25 heard from them, that is from some of them, that they had been to Livade.

Page 7888

1 As I mentioned, Mr. Suvalija and another lady doctor, Asima, it's from her

2 that I heard that, from her it was that I heard they had been to Livade.

3 Q. So you also knew that the doctors had been arrested from the Foca

4 hospital and taken into detention, right?

5 A. Well, some of them, yes, I saw in the KP Dom, and I know that that

6 is so.

7 Q. You also know that Muslim flats were being searched at this time,

8 right?

9 A. Believe me, I learned that afterwards. I didn't know it at that

10 time.

11 Q. You learned also that Muslims were being beaten on occasion when

12 they were arrested, right?

13 A. I did not know that, because I could not know it or see it. Only

14 one heard rumours.

15 Q. You learned about it from other people, that people -- that

16 Muslims were being beaten in Foca at this time?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You also learned that Muslim women and girls were detained in the

19 Partizan Sports Hall and the Foca high school during this time, right?

20 A. I only heard that they were brought there in order to be taken to

21 other places.

22 Q. You learned also that soldiers, Serb soldiers, came to those

23 places and took the women and girls out and raped them, right? You

24 learned about that?

25 A. I'm telling you, I did not know that.

Page 7889

1 Q. You never heard anything being said in Foca at that time about

2 what was happening in the Partizan Sports Hall?

3 A. I didn't, because I really -- and I must tell you one thing here,

4 I had my regular routine route; home, work, work, home, and I hardly ever

5 went out to see some people, to socialise with anyone, I mean anyone that

6 I could hear anything like that from.

7 Q. Your son Dubravko was working in the reserve police force at this

8 time, right?

9 A. Right, yes.

10 Q. The police station is right next to the Partizan Sports Hall;

11 isn't that right?

12 A. Yes, nearby.

13 Q. You never heard from your son Dubravko about what was happening at

14 the Partizan Sports Hall with the women and girls there? About the

15 soldiers that would come and take them out?

16 A. I didn't, because I had very little contact with my Dubravko since

17 my house had burned down and he had his own family, his wife and children,

18 and he lived with his father-in-law in Gornje Polje. So that we'd meet

19 only in passing and say hello one to another, or now and then, if he had

20 time, he'd come to our flat, but believe me, we never talked about that.

21 So that I didn't know about it.

22 Q. You know that Muslims were fleeing Foca at this time out of fear,

23 right?

24 A. I cannot say if they were fleeing for fear but I know they were

25 leaving in buses.

Page 7890

1 Q. And by the middle of August, 1992, most of the Muslims had left

2 through one means or another, either by fleeing individually or in buses

3 organised by the government, right?

4 A. Well, if that was the middle or the end of August, whatever, but

5 yes, we learned that most of them had left.

6 Q. In fact, the Sabanovics, the mother and daughter whom you helped,

7 were quite desperate to get out of Foca and scared to stay there, right?

8 A. I have no idea who that family is.

9 Q. The family whom the -- Desanka Bogdanovic referred to you.

10 You don't know their names?

11 A. Believe me, I do not know what their last name is, but they left

12 sometime in early June because it happened right after the misfortune that

13 struck me and that was the early June, that is end of May, early June,

14 sometime about then.

15 Q. I want to make sure we are talking about the same incident.

16 Desanka Bogdanovic approached you about a mother and daughter, Muslims,

17 who were quite desperate to leave Foca, and she asked for your help and

18 you arranged for a car and a driver to leave in the early morning hours so

19 that they could escape Foca. This is the incident that we are talking

20 about, right?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. And I want to make sure that we got this right; this was -- the

23 translation shows that you said this happened right after the misfortune

24 that befell you, and I assume that you're talking about when your son lost

25 his legs. It happened after that?

Page 7891

1 A. No. I'm sorry, that's why I'm saying it happened before, before

2 the misfortune struck my sons, and it was then that I did a favour to

3 -- because Mrs. Desanka had asked me to and she then did the favour for

4 those two friends, that is, she put those two women in my son's car and it

5 took them to Scepan Polje, but she told me that she were going to meet

6 with their family.

7 Q. You made the arrangements for the driver to pick up these two

8 women early in the morning, around 6.30 or 7.00, and you did that because

9 it was safer to do that, right, rather than the middle of the day?

10 A. Well, you can draw your own conclusions as you please, but I

11 simply thought it more convenient because I had to be at my workplace at

12 7.00 so that to do -- so that I had to turn over my son's car to the

13 driver and yet make it to work at 7.00. Besides, I think that there was a

14 curfew on and one could not go out before 6.00, so it could have been

15 sometime after 6.00, half or 20 past 6.00, perhaps around half past 6.00.

16 Q. You know that when the women got into the car, they hid under

17 their luggage so they couldn't be seen, right?

18 A. They squatted and didn't sit down. I didn't give it a thought at

19 that time, nor do I think about it this time. Perhaps they thought they

20 ought to hide while passing through the town because, as you leave Gornje

21 Polje, you have to go through the town in order to go on to Scepan Polje,

22 so that their travel bags, rather than to put them behind, they put them

23 on the seats.

24 Q. It must have been obvious to you that they were trying to hide and

25 not be seen as they tried to leave Foca, right? It's not the normal way

Page 7892

1 people sit in a car.

2 A. When Desanka asked me and told me that I was the only one she

3 could tell about it, then, yes, there must be some truth in this, that

4 they also had to be hidden from view somehow, not to be seen. And I

5 didn't ask them if they had any documents, any certificates authorising

6 them to leave; believe me, I never paid any attention to that. It was up

7 to me to provide the car and transport, that is, the driver.

8 Q. The way in which the two women left in the car, plus the reaction

9 of Desanka Bogdanovic, that she was so scared and could only trust you,

10 those things led you to conclude that the two Muslim women were scared and

11 wanted to leave Foca and could only leave Foca secretly, right? That was

12 the only conclusion.

13 A. Well, that is a kind of conclusion that I can draw now, that it

14 was something like that, because she also did it surreptitiously.

15 Q. You knew that Foca was not a safe place for Muslims at this time,

16 right?

17 A. I must admit that nobody was safe in Foca at that time, Serbs or

18 Muslims. I do not know if I said that before, but in Foca and around Foca

19 -- well, not in the town itself but around Foca fighting went on until

20 one could say 1994, because take, for instance, the end of 1992, what

21 happened 9 kilometres away from Foca.

22 Q. Let me -- the question was only about Foca itself. You understood

23 that it was unsafe for Muslims in Foca specifically because you even

24 offered to transport the third woman, another Muslim woman, her name was

25 Nedziba Sirbubalo, who was present during this time. You even offered to

Page 7893












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Page 7894

1 have her transported out, if necessary, right?

2 A. Can't remember. What third woman?

3 Q. You were present during the testimony of Mrs. Bogdanovic, right?

4 And you heard her testify --

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I have to interrupt. But

8 so as not to misinterpret, Mr. Krnojelac's answer, when my learned friend

9 asked about the third person, the interpreter did not know the name, could

10 not hear the name, and Mr. Krnojelac did not have the name of that third

11 person, so I suppose you did not know it but I simply want -- or hope that

12 you will not misinterpret his answer.

13 JUDGE HUNT: You mean the name was not interpreted into B/C/S?

14 It's certainly not in the transcript either, I'm afraid. You made a

15 very valiant effort at the pronunciation, but you'd better have another

16 go.

17 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, and I'm trying to approach it in a

18 more descriptive way because it may be that Mr. Krnojelac doesn't actually

19 know her name either.

20 JUDGE HUNT: You may as well give it a go.

21 MS. KUO: Okay.

22 Q. Nedziba Sirbubalo. There was a third woman who was present

23 when the mother and daughter were taken out of Foca and there was

24 testimony by one of your witnesses that, when everybody was saying

25 goodbye, there was another Muslim woman there who did not leave that day

Page 7895

1 but that you offered -- you told Mrs. Bogdanovic that you would help

2 transport that third Muslim woman out, if necessary. Do you remember

3 that?

4 A. I remember that there were Mrs. Bogdanovic and other two

5 Muslim women and Desa Bogdanovic was the third one. I do not remember any

6 other woman or having promised anything. That there was somebody, and

7 that I had promised something to somebody, I don't remember it.

8 Q. So you never told Mrs. Bogdanovic that you would help another

9 Muslim woman escape, even though eventually it wasn't necessary?

10 A. Had Desa asked me again to do it, I would have done it again, but

11 at that time, I do not remember promising anything to anyone, but

12 anything's possible in life.

13 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you knew at this time that there were other prison

14 camps being set up in other municipalities where Muslim men were detained,

15 right? KP Dom was not the only one.

16 A. From the 18th of April when I arrived there, all I knew about was

17 the KP Dom, and that part of people who were brought from Livade and

18 others who were arrested around the town. I didn't know about any others.

19 Q. During the course of your time as the warden of KP Dom, you went

20 to meetings with the Ministry of Justice, and you learned that there were

21 other prison camps set out in other municipalities where Muslim men were

22 detained, right?

23 A. In other municipalities? I knew it.

24 Q. On the 27th or 28th of April 1992, you were present in the KP Dom,

25 around 3.00 in the morning when a JNA officer, a Muslim, was brought in

Page 7896

1 from the Filipovici fuel depot, right?

2 A. As far as I know - and I wasn't in the KP Dom at the time, I'm

3 sure of that - and that officer wasn't brought to the KP Dom. He was

4 brought, and I learned it later, what, that one officer had been brought

5 with a group of soldiers and put above the canteen near the -- in the

6 vicinity of the KP Dom, not inside the KP Dom.

7 Q. The officer that I'm referring to was a Muslim officer, and you

8 knew both his brothers. Are we talking about the same person?

9 A. I knew his late father and I knew one of his brothers. I didn't

10 know his other brother. And he was put up above the canteen, not within

11 the compound of the KP Dom.

12 Q. You allowed this officer to make a phone call to his brother in

13 Sarajevo, right?

14 A. I do not remember, believe me, that I let him, but if he did ask

15 me, then I think I did it for him. All I know is that we had coffee

16 together one morning because he asked me, "May I have a cup of coffee with

17 you?" Yes, sure, why not? And we had this coffee in the room, in that

18 office of mine that I'm telling you was called censorship earlier, and I

19 didn't think that he had been taken in or that he was in prison, because

20 he was accommodated with some soldiers in that part of the restaurant

21 where there were rooms for visits of families to the convicts before the

22 war broke out.

23 Q. Before you had coffee that morning with that officer, he had just

24 been brought in and there was a soldier named Dida, a Serb soldier who was

25 shooting wildly and threatening to kill a busload of refugees if he

Page 7897

1 wasn't paid. Surely you'd remember that.

2 A. I have to tell you I was not there. I was not present at all, and

3 I heard that it happened in the evening hours and that they spent one

4 night, that is, that the military had put a group of women and children in

5 the KP Dom, women and children brought over from Filipovici. I put them

6 in that part where all the other Muslims were accommodated.

7 Q. They didn't ask you permission to do that, did they?

8 A. It happened at night and nobody asked any permission because the

9 KP Dom had already been let -- that is, I do not know if there was any --

10 whether it had indeed been rented out to the army but the military were

11 already there and I was not present then.

12 Q. When you came in the morning and had coffee with that officer in

13 the censorship room, you learned that the women and children had been kept

14 overnight inside the KP Dom, right?

15 A. As far as I can recall, I didn't have that coffee with him the

16 very next morning. It was a bit later on because this officer and those

17 troops were there for several days. It wasn't that morning that I had

18 coffee with him, but afterwards, I learnt from a guard, I can't remember

19 which one, that that group of women and children had spent the night there

20 and that the next day they had been taken away from the KP Dom. So they

21 only spent one night there and then they were taken away from the KP Dom;

22 where and how, I wouldn't know.

23 Q. Who put them in the KP Dom compound?

24 A. I was not there and I do not know who put them there. I was told

25 that it was the army who had brought them there, that is, those White

Page 7898

1 Eagles, or was it the guards? Well, be that as it may, it was the

2 military who brought them there.

3 Q. On the --

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but in the transcript,

7 if my English is good enough, it should be guards means -- means watchmen

8 and the witness said White Eagles or the guard. 24th line, page ten, line

9 24, guard with capital G.

10 JUDGE HUNT: But are you worried about the number? It's reported

11 as having said the guards, plural. You think there was only the

12 singular? Is that the problem you have?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Again, perhaps my

14 English is not good enough, but as it says here, the guards, what the

15 witness indicated was the name of the formation, the Guard, that is what

16 it was called, and the witness said the White Eagles or the Guard. Guard

17 is a separate military formation. We've heard about the White Eagles,

18 we've heard all about the Serb Guards as another military formation. The

19 witness did not say guardsmen, watchmen; he meant the Guard or

20 perhaps the Serb Guard as another military formation; the name of it.

21 JUDGE HUNT: We will get it sorted out. I think, Ms. Kuo, I've

22 thought of "the guard" or "the guards" as meaning the non-military people

23 working inside the jail, so that we'd better get what the witness intended

24 sorted out.

25 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 7899












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Page 7900

1 Q. When I asked you who put these women and children in the KP Dom,

2 and you answered that it was the army who brought them there, that is,

3 those White Eagles or was it the guard, could you tell us what you meant

4 by "the guard"? Did you mean a military or non-military unit?

5 A. I'm sorry, I learned that they had been brought there. I'm not

6 sure, I don't remember what did they say, that it was the White Eagles or

7 the so-called Serb Guard, and I wasn't there so I cannot really know.

8 Q. The time that the women and children were brought into the KP Dom

9 was when the JNA officer was also brought in, right? The same time,

10 because they had all come from Filipovici; is that right?

11 A. Whether they came together or not, but I think that it was that

12 same day or, rather, that same night.

13 Q. That was the end of April, the 27th or 28th, before the contract

14 that part of the KP Dom would be let out to the military, right?

15 A. I don't know. I can't remember the exact date, but in that case,

16 it was the Uzice unit that was on guard duty then. If I had been there,

17 believe me, I would not have stood up to them. They came there before I

18 did, and I could not have stood up to them in the sense of why were they

19 doing something like that.

20 Q. You were in charge of the entire KP Dom at that time, right?

21 There had been no contract that any part of it was going to be let out to

22 the military, was there?

23 A. At that time, they were running the part where they were staying,

24 or rather, the entire KP Dom, precisely the guards from Uzice. I was only

25 with the commission going round taking the inventory and registering all

Page 7901

1 the damage that had been sustained, so I had no right to enter their

2 premises. They wouldn't let me. And that is why there were those

3 negotiations with Mr. Mladjenovic that it could not be done that way, that

4 I was to guard the property, to safeguard the property, and then others

5 are there since that part was rented out, and he said to me, "Milorad,

6 somebody has to safeguard this property from these people who are there."

7 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, on the 25th of May 1992, a bus arrived from Bar in

8 Montenegro, carrying Muslims and Serbs to the -- carrying Muslims and

9 Serbs, and about 25 Muslims were brought into the KP Dom, many of whom

10 were beaten on their way in. You were present at that time, weren't you?

11 A. I assert that I was not present, but I did hear that people from

12 Montenegro were brought in. I don't know when they were brought in, at

13 what time of the day or I don't even know the date or something like

14 that. It was in May, though, because there is no reason for me not to

15 tell you that I had been present and seen that. I would have told you

16 had I been present and had I seen it, but I wasn't. I don't even know

17 what time of day they arrived.

18 Q. But you did learn of this group being brought in, right?

19 A. I found out a few days later from one of these guards, because at

20 that time, there were quite a few guards there who had already arrived,

21 those who had worked in the KP Dom before, and I was really surprised by

22 this bus. They were talking about it, the guards, and they said that

23 there were also Serbs who were brought from Montenegro.

24 Q. Do you remember which of the guards that was? You said you

25 learned this from one of the guards.

Page 7902












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Page 7903

1 A. Believe me, I can't remember, but most probably it was one of

2 those whom I knew better from before the conflict. I really can't

3 remember who said this, because usually this would just be mentioned in

4 passing, very fast. It wasn't like you're sitting and chatting with

5 someone for an hour or two. Somebody said, yeah, they came, they brought

6 in Muslims and Serbs and there are even Croats there, and it's mentioned

7 and that's it. Now, for me to remember, I ask you kindly to try to

8 understand, after all these years, it's hard for me to remember people's

9 names and various moments, but I did hear that.

10 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you knew that in the months of April, May and even

11 June, Muslim men were being brought into the KP Dom in large numbers,

12 right? Several hundred?

13 A. Whatever I learned, I learned from other people. I did not see

14 anything with my very own eyes. It was known that people were brought in

15 but I did not see anything with my very own eyes. I would have to

16 remember had I seen it, but really, I had so many other obligations,

17 because what could I see if on that day I went to the farm at Brioni or

18 Maglic or the warehouses, Perucica, places like that. I would enter

19 through the gate to the right to the administration building --

20 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you learned the number of Muslim detainees by

21 talking to the cook and the warehouse keeper, right? You told the

22 investigators that you did know the numbers.

23 A. The warehouse keeper once, or perhaps not only once, several

24 times, said to me, "There are more people at the KP Dom and we need more

25 food and we have to provide that food." But I always said that it was up

Page 7904

1 to the military to provide that and they went there to ask them for it,

2 and what was obtained was obtained. Because the military was supposed to

3 provide food for detained persons, just like they got a cook, because I

4 had nothing to do with this, and as I said, what I gave, I gave because

5 some kind of stocks were obtained somehow, and people from the

6 administration were eating at the same mess where they were eating, that

7 one meal, that is.

8 Q. You mentioned the military cook. That one cook provided food for

9 everybody in the KP Dom, civilian and military alike, right? You didn't

10 have your own separate civilian cook, did you?

11 A. No, no. One cook, and everything was cooked in one cauldron, as

12 far as I know, because there wasn't any electricity, and that cauldron was

13 outside and, in passing, as I would go to breakfast or to the furniture

14 factory, I would see this cooking taking place in one and the same

15 cauldron. How it was distributed, I don't know. I didn't attend their

16 lunches and dinners. We from the administration, the clerks, we would

17 usually take meals after them. They would have breakfast and then they

18 would go to their accommodation and then we would come to a different

19 dining room for breakfast.

20 Q. When you say "they," they would have their breakfast and then go

21 to their accommodation before you ate, who did you mean by "they"?

22 A. I'm referring to detained persons of all three ethnicities, and

23 also those people who were serving their sentences, three, four, five, it

24 depended.

25 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you were in charge of providing food for everybody

Page 7905

1 at the KP Dom, right?

2 A. No, no, no, no. Please, I was not in charge. The only thing I

3 was in charge of was doing my own job, not to repeat what that was, but I

4 was not in charge of providing food for them. However, as much as I

5 could, I tried, as much as possible, when there were barters and also with

6 the Red Cross and even some companies, I tried to obtain as much as I

7 could because, after the good life that existed before the war, it is only

8 natural that there was very little food, and it was difficult to get food,

9 and I tried to get as much food as possible but I was not in charge of

10 that. I'm asserting that to you because I would not have been looking for

11 that -- am I talking too much? No, I was not in charge of that.

12 Q. Most of the time, a yes or no answer is sufficient. There wasn't

13 a separate warehouse for the military detainees, was there? There was one

14 warehouse that was shared by everybody. That provided food, I mean.

15 A. There was a separate warehouse in front of the kitchen, and as far

16 as I know, food was stored there that was obtained from the military or,

17 rather, from their rear in Livade. The other warehouse for food and

18 equipment was below that building, was it number 1? At any rate, when you

19 enter the gate, the compound, it's the warehouse over there, and I don't

20 know that the food was not kept separately, that there was one and the

21 same warehouse. No, I don't know about that, the food being kept in one

22 and the same warehouse, no.

23 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you kept track of how much food was needed for

24 the detainees in the KP Dom as well as the convicts; is that

25 right? You might not like the word "in charge of" but you certainly knew

Page 7906

1 and were involved in that food supply, weren't you?

2 A. I did not keep any records as to how much food was needed. The

3 head of the kitchen kept records as to what he needed and in which

4 quantities.

5 Q. You went to the military, or you sent letters to the military,

6 asking them for specific amounts of food for the detainees; isn't that

7 right?

8 A. The head of the kitchen would tell the warehouse keeper how much

9 he needed, the warehouse keeper would send that to me, I would send it to

10 the rear at Livade, and they were in charge of providing food. So I would

11 send those papers to them.

12 Q. So you were involved in securing food for the detainees, right?

13 A. I actually said that during barters, I obtained food, but for

14 humanitarian purposes because of my humanitarian attitude towards them.

15 By no means was this based on an obligation that I had to do that.

16 Q. You were in direct contact with the military with regard to food

17 for the detainees, right?

18 A. I was not in direct contact with the military in that respect. It

19 was only paperwork, and that is not a direct contact. Resolving things

20 through paperwork is not direct contact for me.

21 MS. KUO: I'd like to have the witness shown Exhibit D105.

22 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, this is a letter written and signed by you, dated

23 February 1993, to the Foca Tactical Group, as well as to the municipal

24 assembly of Foca, the executive committee of the Foca municipal assembly,

25 right?

Page 7907

1 A. Well, I can't see this well but I believe what you're saying, and

2 also I think it has to involve the rear, the command for the rear, and

3 that this should have been addressed to them as well.

4 Q. Well, there is one line that is shown as illegible in the English

5 translation so it's possible that that's where the rear that you're

6 talking about should be addressed. But I'd like to ask you about the

7 contents of this letter. About halfway through the first paragraph, there

8 is the sentence that says, "The assistance provided by the military organs

9 consisted of occasional help in foodstuffs which was insufficient to cover

10 the aforementioned costs." And you go on to ask that there be regular

11 allocations, that there be regular allocation of foodstuffs for "our

12 needs." And in the very same letter, you talk about -- you ask for an

13 allocation of a monthly ration of 100 litres of petrol for the needs of

14 the KP Dom.

15 A. Please, I did not say that there wasn't paperwork involved, and

16 that we did not have that kind of contact and that I did not ask for

17 things that way. But I certainly found out about that from the head of

18 the kitchen who said, through the warehouse keeper, that food was not

19 arriving regularly, and I wanted to remind them of their duty, that they

20 were duty-bound to provide these supplies regularly.

21 As for petrol, I referred to that because that had to be

22 transported as well because foodstuffs could not be carried on one's back.

23 There weren't any horses so it could not be brought on horses either.

24 That is why vehicles had to be used for transporting food and that is why

25 we needed petrol.

Page 7908

1 So I felt it was necessary for me to say what one person said to

2 the other, that is, to say what the head of the kitchen said to the

3 warehouse keeper and what the warehouse keeper said to me, and I felt it

4 was necessary that I should write about that, and I do say at the very

5 end, as a matter of fact, "We are counting on your understanding and

6 help." If that's a bad thing to do, I mean --

7 Q. Thank you. I'd like to have the witness shown Exhibit D107.

8 This is another letter signed by you, this one dated 3rd March

9 1993, addressed to the Foca Garrison military post, 7141. And here, you

10 ask for -- you discuss how the KP Dom holds Muslim detainees and Serbian

11 offenders from the army, and you ask for approval of the allocation of a

12 list of food supplies, a very specific list, including beans and rice and

13 macaroni in very specific amounts, and then you state, "These quantities

14 are sufficient for a month's food requirements," right?

15 A. That's right, but this was compiled by the head of the kitchen

16 according to the tables he had, according to the number of people

17 involved, which he probably had, and then he compiled this kind of list.

18 So then I asked for this and I forwarded it to the military authorities,

19 because it is said here that there are detained persons of Muslim and Serb

20 ethnicity, so if that's a crime, it is for the Honourable Court to judge,

21 but it is true that, yes, this is my signature.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Krnojelac, when you learned from the warehouse

23 keeper that there was a shortage of food with regard to the detainees, you

24 never went to any of the people that you have described as actually being

25 in charge at the KP Dom; the military, the so-called military

Page 7909

1 representatives. You didn't go to them, did you? You wrote letters

2 directly to the command.

3 A. My best cooperation was in the fact that I wrote. For me to go

4 without writing, it would have been pointless, and had I not written this,

5 there would not have been these documents nowadays, but then, excuse me,

6 you would not have believed what I have been telling you had these

7 documents not been found. I did not go any farther than the rear that was

8 in Livade, that is about two or two and a half kilometres away from KP

9 Dom.

10 It's not only that I asked them for this. I also asked for food

11 at other companies and also in the Red Cross, and sometimes it actually

12 turned out that I would get some food from the Red Cross too. Because

13 there was the lady who was the boss there, Sneja [phoen], she was a pupil

14 of mine before, and whenever there was food that was not distributed to

15 refugees and displaced persons, she gave it to me. It was always welcome,

16 whatever you could get; 20 litres of oil, 20 litres of oil, that's fine.

17 Also, sometimes I could even get lard but I always kept looking for oil

18 because Muslims did not want to eat food that was cooked on lard. So then

19 I always had to look for oil.

20 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, Mitar Rasevic was not involved in providing food

21 for the detainees, was he?

22 A. Mitar Rasevic had a different duty in the KP Dom.

23 Q. Savo Todovic was not involved in providing food for the detainees,

24 was he?

25 A. Well, he also had his other affairs. I don't know whether he was

Page 7910

1 in contact with the command with regard to this food, but he also knew

2 what the situation at the KP Dom was like in respect of food, because he

3 probably went to these meals too, breakfast, that is, and he probably

4 found out from the cook, but I really don't know whether he asked for

5 anything and whether he contacted people for that.

6 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you knew how many Muslim detainees were being kept

7 at the KP Dom because you had access to the roll call notebooks and lists

8 that were kept in the prisoners' quarters, right? There was one desk

9 at the entrance to each prisoner quarter, and in the drawer of the desk

10 was a list of the detainees and the daily roll calls, listing who was

11 there and how many people, so you knew how many people were there; isn't

12 that right?

13 A. Please, I did not know, and I wish you could tell me on the basis

14 of what I could have known, because such documents were not accessible to

15 me.

16 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you had access to labour provided by the Muslim

17 detainees, right?

18 A. I'm sorry, could you please repeat that question?

19 Q. Let me ask it this way: Labour was scarce in the KP Dom and in

20 all of Foca at this time, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And according to your testimony, you were expected to keep the

23 functions of the Drina Economic Unit going during this time, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in order to keep this economic unit going, you needed workers,

Page 7911

1 right?

2 A. Partly they were needed, yes, you could say that they were needed.

3 Q. And before the war, the labour supply for the Drina Economic Unit

4 was provided by the prison population, right?

5 A. As for civilian persons, there were civilian persons who worked in

6 the Drina Economic Unit before the war and there were also convicted

7 persons who were working there.

8 Q. You asked Mr. Mladjenovic for help securing craftsmen from

9 the civilian population outside the prison population, right? And you got

10 some people.

11 A. A few carpenters were provided for the furniture factory but that

12 was done by way of assignment to work obligation.

13 Q. But those people were not enough to keep the Drina Economic Unit

14 going, right? You needed more workers than that.

15 A. At that time, what I needed the most was two extra men, head of

16 the varnishing shop and a worker to do upholstery. However, they didn't

17 send them. And then they sent people for cleaning the furniture factory -

18 I think I already mentioned this - five or six people, detainees of Muslim

19 ethnicity, who worked in that factory, together with these carpenters.

20 Q. This is what I'm getting to, Mr. Krnojelac. The -- in order to

21 keep the economic unit running, you requested to have some of the

22 detainees available to work, right?

23 A. No, no, that's not the way it was. I did not ask for detained

24 persons to be given to me. I asked for a head of the varnishing shop and

25 also a craftsman who could do upholstery. Since they did not provide me

Page 7912

1 with them, they gave these five or six people probably, who knew something

2 about carpentry or perhaps they were carpenters, I don't know. I don't

3 know about that.

4 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, let me take you through this step by step. In

5 order to get the economic unit going, you needed people to help you and

6 you made specific requests for people to help you, right? You don't need

7 to go through it again but that's what you did; you made the requests for

8 what -- who was needed.

9 A. Yes, civilians, though.

10 Q. You were told that you could not get civilians, there were not

11 enough people, civilians, in Foca to meet your needs, and that's why you

12 were given detainees, right?

13 A. That is why Mr. Todovic gave a list and said that those people

14 were available and then, at a meeting of the board, I told so the heads of

15 work units, namely that Mr. Todovic had that list and that they should

16 turn to him and he'd give them those men from the detention unit.

17 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you mentioned a meeting of the board. Can you tell

18 us what board you mean?

19 A. I mean -- well, I call it the board of directors; that is, head of

20 the factory, head of the metal working, head of the farm, head of the

21 commercial department, accountant, those people, people who were in charge

22 of individual units, economic units, of the Drina.

23 Q. This was a meeting that Mr. Todovic also attended, right?

24 A. Mr. Todovic did not attend the meeting. He had informed me a day

25 or two before that that he had received an order to that effect and I told

Page 7913












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Page 7914

1 him that I'd tell people about it, or rather, that I'd tell heads of work

2 units about it, and that they -- and that he should then talk to them and

3 ask them how many men each of them needed. But I should like to add that

4 on that occasion, I asked Mr. Todovic, "Tell me, please, are these people

5 who are volunteering to work?" And he answered, "Yes, they are

6 volunteering, and there are many more volunteers but they lack skills."

7 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you mentioned an order that Mr. Todovic received.

8 Can you tell us what that order was or what you're referring to?

9 A. Well, I thought it was something oral or perhaps in writing, I

10 don't know, but perhaps he was orally told to draw up this list of crafts,

11 of skills, that is, what kind of skills those people had, and what kind of

12 work could they do. That is what I meant, to simply write out a list of

13 jobs, of skills.

14 Q. Did you learn from whom he received this order?

15 A. Well, the military command, I suppose, from the Tactical Group.

16 And the individual who did it, no, I didn't see him, and I didn't ask him,

17 but since it was -- it belonged to the military part of the Tactical Group

18 which was at Velecevo, that is as likely as not, in that women's part of

19 the prison that formerly belonged to the KP Dom.

20 Q. To whom did you make the request for craftsmen?

21 A. Mr. Mladjenovic.

22 Q. And Mr. Mladjenovic didn't give you a direct response, right?

23 A. Mr. Mladjenovic said that he'd see about it and do whatever he

24 could do, because he realised that I needed them. I wouldn't have asked

25 for them had I not needed them, especially those particular craftsmen, if

Page 7915

1 I may.

2 Q. Just so I'm clear on that, you made your request to

3 Mr. Mladjenovic and the next thing you heard was Mr. Todovic telling you

4 that he could make a list of detainees who were available to work for you;

5 is that right?

6 A. After the conversation with Mladjenovic. This conversation with

7 Todovic occurred after the conversation with Mladjenovic, that he had

8 those men available. What I needed most was the head of the varnishing

9 department, because there were about 100 bookshelves that needed

10 varnishing.

11 Q. Sir, you've told us about the varnishing company several times; we

12 really don't need to hear about that again.

13 You also supervised the metalwork shop, right? And Mr. Relja

14 Goljanin was in charge?

15 A. I was put in charge of the whole Drina business unit and that

16 included the metal working shop, but Relja was specifically in charge. He

17 was the head of that work unit of the metal working shop.

18 Q. And the people who were working for Mr. Goljanin in the metalwork

19 shop were skilled workers, right?

20 A. I couldn't -- I wouldn't say that they worked for Mr. Goljanin.

21 They worked in the metal shop and they were skilled workers.

22 Q. At one point, in May or June of 1992, a group of Muslim detainees

23 was taken out of the KP Dom, some of whom worked in the metalwork shop,

24 and Mr. Goljanin found out and got very angry that his workers, or workers

25 in the metalwork shop, were being taken away. Do you recall that?

Page 7916












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Page 7917

1 A. All I know is that Mr. Hamdo left the metal shop, and as for the

2 others, no, nobody notified me nor do I know who went away from the

3 metalwork shop, either to be exchanged or whatever.

4 Q. There was a time when a list of the skilled metal shop workers was

5 kept at the front gate, indicating that they were skilled workers and

6 never to be taken out for exchange or anything else, right? Because they

7 were needed in the KP Dom. There was such a list, wasn't there?

8 A. I never saw it, nor am I aware of its existence.

9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you know that the skilled workers working in the

10 metalwork shop worked there throughout their detention, right,

11 specifically because they had the skills that were necessary. They didn't

12 rotate in and rotate out; they were a fixed group of people who were there

13 for several months, working, right?

14 A. The metal working shop's task was maintenance. The maintenance.

15 And apart from that, they finished, I think, two kiosks which were about

16 to be completed, and the only task of the metal shop was to maintain

17 buildings, that is, facilities, of the KP Dom.

18 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, please answer the question. The question was:

19 Wasn't it true that this was a fixed group of detainees working there?

20 A. I wouldn't know.

21 Q. You knew Ekrem Zekovic worked in the metalwork shop for several

22 months throughout his detention, right? He was a familiar person to you.

23 A. I said that I didn't know Ekrem all that well but I went there

24 very seldom, or perhaps I would enter the metal shop but he'd be in a

25 different workshop and then I wouldn't see him at all because I didn't go

Page 7918

1 to all the workshops, there was no need for me to go into every nook and

2 corner of that metal shop. I come up and pass by, so I don't know if

3 there was this group or if there was a precise group. No, it couldn't

4 be. And I learned that from Relja. Whenever I went there, he'd tell me

5 they have taken Hamdo away; so it wasn't a fixed group, it changed.

6 Q. You said that Relja would tell you that they had taken something

7 or someone away but the translation wasn't very clear. Can you repeat

8 that?

9 A. I said there wasn't always the same number of people because he'd

10 tell me after they had taken -- well, sometimes he'd tell me, sometimes he

11 wouldn't. If they took somebody away, he'd tell me, "They have taken

12 Hamdo away and I don't know whether they will bring him back," and one

13 knew that it was the troops from Miljevina who took them away.

14 Q. And the Hamdo that you're referring to was taken to Miljevina to

15 work on cars there, as a mechanic, right?

16 A. What he did up there, I never asked him, and I don't know what he

17 did, but, yes, true, he was a car mechanic, and a good one, both man and

18 craftsman.

19 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you also knew Muhamed Lisica who worked for a long

20 time in the metalwork shop, right?

21 A. We knew one another - well, not for a long time, I wouldn't say

22 that - but I knew him, I knew him by sight mostly.

23 Q. You also mentioned, gave a description of several of the things

24 that were being made at the metalwork shop. Things being made there had

25 to be approved by you or Mr. Goljanin, right? You couldn't do any

Page 7919

1 unauthorized work in the metalwork shop, could you?

2 A. Relja Goljanin could authorise anything he liked, because at a

3 meeting of yet another board, or another meeting of the board of

4 directors, we had said that it would be very nice indeed if both the

5 furniture factory and the metal shop could do so-called loan deals. You

6 know what it is; it's something like maintenance, you are paid to do

7 something. Yes, Mr. Goljanin could indeed authorise something like that

8 except that an invoice had to be written out for that, of course.

9 Q. This was -- you described the board meeting where this was made

10 known. This was a decision that you made as a manager that they should be

11 able to have some flexibility in authorising specific jobs, right?

12 A. There was no written decision. It was just a verbal arrangement.

13 Q. But what I mean is, since you were in charge of the Drina Economic

14 Unit, that was your decision to give your managers some flexibility,

15 right? It wasn't something they just came up with on their own; you

16 approved it.

17 A. I agree but it also -- that is how it was before, and I didn't

18 want to deny them anything that they had before. And on my part, it was

19 that in order to create a better and nicer atmosphere in that team of

20 people who cooperated, to contribute to better understanding.

21 Q. And the invoice that you refer to meant that if the metalwork shop

22 was contracted to do work for somebody outside the KP Dom, that that

23 person or company would be billed for the work, right?

24 A. I never saw any invoice, because it wasn't brought to me. If

25 there was any, it wouldn't be brought to me, it was turned over to the

Page 7920












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Page 7921

1 administration.

2 Q. We really must focus on answering the question. My question

3 wasn't whether you saw the invoice. You made reference to an invoice and

4 I was simply asking you what that meant. When you said "the invoice," all

5 it meant was a bill that would be sent to whoever from outside the KP Dom

6 the work was being done for, right? That's all you meant.

7 A. I do not know if there were any invoices. I do not know if they

8 did any work for anyone outside the KP Dom.

9 Q. Sir, you stated Mr. Goljanin could authorise something like that,

10 "except that an invoice had to be written out for that, of course." So

11 the agreement was that the metalwork shop could do outside work but that a

12 bill had to be sent to whoever that work was being done for, right? That

13 was the agreement.

14 A. But this invoice is then given not to the manager of the economic

15 unit but to the administration so that they could do the calculations and

16 then send the bill for the work done. That is the head of the accounting

17 department.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Krnojelac, part of the work that you supervised

19 was also seasonal work outside the KP Dom, such as cutting grass or

20 collecting hay, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And even though that wasn't on the premises of the KP Dom or at

23 the farm, that was still within your authority as part of your job,

24 right?

25 A. Mr. Novica Mojovic, head of the farm, was in charge of that work.

Page 7922

1 Q. And you were responsible for Mr. Mojovic, right? You were his --

2 you were above him in the hierarchy?

3 A. Basically, yes.

4 Q. And he, and therefore you, would be responsible if people, let's

5 say detainees, were taken out to do that kind of work, you would be

6 responsible for making sure that they returned safely, right?

7 A. The safe return was the responsibility of the one who provided the

8 security those -- for those people who had gone out to work.

9 Q. But if they are doing work for you, aren't you also responsible

10 for their safety, both while they are working and getting there and coming

11 back? That's also your responsibility, right?

12 A. Well, in any event, it is the responsibility of the one who gave

13 them work and the one who takes care of them, and as a man, if you speak

14 about humane relations, then of course, I'm responsible for everyone, but

15 if we talk about this in terms of duty, it is the one who authorised them

16 to do this work and the one who provided security for those men are

17 responsible for it.

18 Q. If a group of detainees were taken out to gather hay and something

19 bad happened to them there - they were injured or indeed if people failed

20 to return to the KP Dom - that would be your responsibility to find out

21 what happened to them, right?

22 A. It wouldn't be my responsibility, because it wasn't I who

23 authorised their going there, nor did I assign any job to them. It would

24 be the responsibility of the one who took them out. And heaven forbid a

25 snake bite or perhaps a cut, then regardless of whether it would be my

Page 7923

1 responsibility or not, then of course I would have done my utmost to save

2 his life, and I'd do whatever I could do, but as for all the rest, I do

3 not think I had any responsibility.

4 Q. If a group of detainees were taken out to pick plums - that's the

5 kind of seasonal work we are discussing - and failed to return, you would

6 be responsible for finding out what happened to them, right? That fell

7 under your jurisdiction, didn't it?

8 A. Excuse me, please, I do not really know why we adjourned this

9 session when I put it very precisely whose competence it was. Believe me,

10 I simply do not know who sent them to do what they did, nor do I know what

11 happened to them, and you evidently have some principle to attribute it

12 all to me. It wasn't my responsibility at all.

13 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, no detainees were actually being used to pick plums

14 at this time, because the orchards were all mined, right?

15 A. I know that some parts of the orchard were mined in some places

16 because -- in the direction of Scepan Polje, there was a whole orchard

17 which belonged to the cooperative and with apple trees. I don't know how

18 many times I went by, nobody had ever picked those apples, which means it

19 was mined, and other places where were the mines -- where there were no

20 mines, believe me I do not know because I was not a military person nor

21 did I go to those positions so I cannot know whether they were mined or

22 not.

23 Q. Yes?

24 A. As far as my brain serves me, I think that a witness too said

25 about that incident, he -- we called it plum picking, so I really know

Page 7924

1 nothing about that. I don't even know when my heart will fail me.

2 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, during your interview with the investigators, you

3 said that all the orchards were mined at this time, and that's why it

4 would have been impossible for anybody to be taken to pick plums or any

5 other fruit, right?

6 A. Well, perhaps that is how it was interpreted but I did not say

7 that all the orchards, I said that there were some orchards that had been

8 mined and that could not be entered. If a farmer did not go somewhere to

9 pick fruit, then nobody else should go there because he then knows that it

10 had been mined and won't go in to pick anything, I mean the farmer. And I

11 didn't go there, all over those places, to know that every single orchard

12 had been mined.

13 Q. You never -- there was never a part of the Drina Economic Unit

14 work duty that people go pick fruit, right?

15 A. No, no, no, no, no. Never. Nor was there any need for the Drina

16 to go and pick fruit.

17 Q. Sir, you knew that detainees were being taken out of the KP Dom

18 either for exchange or -- in any event, never returned, right?

19 A. I do not know why do you claim that I knew about every exchange or

20 about some exchanges? I could hear about them only after the fact, after

21 the exchange, when this exchange has been carried through and then

22 somebody, either from the administration or somebody else, you go out or

23 you sit down or -- and he tells you or she tells you there was an exchange

24 last week. I never knew about this because, you have to understand, I

25 told you whose responsibility it was, and I told you that it was

Page 7925












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7926

1 transmitted from one person to the other, as for the military command and

2 those other parts, and I had enough work of my own and difficult private

3 life and all that.

4 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you said somebody from the administration. What do

5 you mean by "the administration"?

6 A. Well, those clerks who worked in the Drina Economic Unit.

7 Q. You learned about -- sorry.

8 A. I'm sorry, too.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, I don't want to suggest that you should

10 hurry, but have you got any idea of how long your cross-examination is

11 going to take? The Trial Chamber is concerned about these other two

12 witnesses that we had hoped to call this week.

13 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, I was hoping to finish today, but at

14 this rate, I'm not optimistic about that. But I understand -- we've had

15 discussions with the Defence that we could bring the witnesses in this

16 afternoon at 2.30, in the middle of the testimony of the accused, so that

17 they can be finished today and --

18 JUDGE HUNT: That's the Defence witness and the Prosecution

19 witness?

20 MS. KUO: Yes. And then if we are sitting tomorrow, we can resume

21 and I anticipate finishing the cross-examination.

22 JUDGE HUNT: We are only concerned about those two witnesses who I

23 understand, or at least one of them, is not available. She was going to

24 be available on Monday but apparently is no longer available.

25 Mr. Bakrac, have you any views about interrupting your client's

Page 7927

1 evidence for that purpose?

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, insofar as the

3 Defence is concerned, but may I have a minute to check with the accused,

4 who is under oath now, to explain to him what this is about? But the

5 Defence does not object and our expert witness can be here at half past

6 2.00 and the witness already knows about it.

7 JUDGE HUNT: We would not do anything without your client's

8 consent and you may certainly speak to him during the adjournment about

9 that. It's only a matter, I think, of trying to dispose of those two

10 witnesses -- I hope that doesn't sound evil -- so that they can get away.

11 Otherwise, apparently we can't hear them until the week of the 16th - I

12 think it's the 16th - of July. But we would not put any pressure on you;

13 it's just a matter that if it can be done, we would like it to be done but

14 we certainly would not override any objection which you or your client

15 would have. So let us know, if you could, at half past 11.00 what your

16 attitude is. We will adjourn until then.

17 --- Recess taken at 11.01 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, are you able to given us any indication

20 about this interruption in your client's evidence?

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I have talked to

22 my client, consulted him, and he doesn't mind, if that will help us move

23 on more efficiently towards the end of the case.

24 JUDGE HUNT: We are very grateful to you, Mr. Krnojelac, for so

25 agreeing, and you, Mr. Bakrac, for sorting it out with him. Well, then,

Page 7928

1 we will take your witness, Mr. Bakrac, at 2.30, that's your expert, and

2 the Prosecution's expert should be in court so that she can hear the

3 evidence and give any assistance that's needed for the purposes of

4 cross-examination; and then your expert, Mr. Bakrac, should remain, if she

5 can, to assist you in cross-examination of the Prosecution witness. But

6 you do have the Prosecution witness's statement now so that you should put

7 anything to your witness from that statement that you want her to deal

8 with. We don't want to have to call your witness in reply again, if it

9 can be at all avoided.

10 Right. Yes, Ms. Kuo, you proceed with your cross-examination.

11 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you spoke with [redacted] on the day that he was

13 brought back from Cajnice at the end of June 1992, and he told you that

14 they had been brought there and that the exchange had failed, right?

15 A. I just don't know whether it was the end of June. I think it was

16 earlier. But at any rate, I did talk to him.

17 Q. And you also learned, after a group of detainees were returned

18 from Niksic, that that exchange had not worked either, right?

19 A. No. I later on found out that the group got back from Niksic. I

20 found out only a few days afterwards that the group returned from Niksic.

21 Q. So you knew during this time that there were groups being taken

22 out for exchange, right? Or at least, groups of detainees were being

23 taken out; sometimes they were returned and sometimes they weren't?

24 A. I know about these two groups, that they were returned, and,

25 again, I know that this other group was taken to Niksic. I don't know

Page 7929

1 about the others. I heard sometimes that after the exchange would take

2 place, I would find out a couple of days later. Sometimes I would find

3 out and sometimes I wouldn't find out at all.

4 Q. There was another group taken out for exchange at the end of

5 August, on the 30th of August, that was returned, and that group included

6 your former colleague RJ, who told you what had happened, right?

7 A. No, no. He did not tell me about it at all, and I don't know that

8 this group returned. Does that refer to the group that was returned after

9 Niksic? Nobody told me about it because I just heard that Pero Elez

10 returned them from some place before Niksic. My colleague did not tell me

11 that. At that time, I did not see my colleague.

12 Q. But you know that your colleague was taken out the next day and he

13 was exchanged, right?

14 A. No. I did not know.

15 Q. You met several times with your colleague RJ while he was detained

16 at the KP Dom, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And so you must have also been aware of the circumstances of his

19 release, right?

20 A. No, I didn't know.

21 Q. You have no idea what happened to your friend and colleague, RJ,

22 how it was he was no longer --

23 A. I did not know. I did not know. I just knew that Mr. Dakic was

24 asking for him to be released. How he managed to get him released, or

25 rather, how he went for an exchange, I don't know.

Page 7930

1 Q. You never told RJ when he told you that -- let me rephrase that.

2 You never said, "I thought as much," in response to the description given

3 to you by RJ about how the initial exchange had failed?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You know that these exchanges were done pursuant to lists that

6 were given to the person on duty at the booth, right?

7 A. That is learned later. Once I asked on the basis of what were

8 these people taken out, and they told me that a list would arrive, their

9 names would be called out, and they would go.

10 Q. Did you ever find out where these lists were compiled or who

11 compiled them?

12 A. Believe me, I did not. Nor do I know who compiled them or who

13 gave proposals as to who would go for exchanges.

14 Q. When the list would arrive at the KP Dom, the guards at the KP Dom

15 would go get the detainees and assemble them to be taken out, right?

16 A. I am not familiar with the procedure involved.

17 Q. You described how you learned that the lists would arrive. Who

18 told you this?

19 A. Well, usually when somebody would tell me that there was an

20 exchange, I would be interested sometimes as to how this was effected.

21 And then once a man said to me -- if I'm not mistaken, there was a Cancar,

22 Milenko. I asked him about it, and he said to me, "Milorad, a list would

23 arrive, it would be read out, and these people would be taken out for an

24 exchange," and then these people would be taken out for an exchange. I

25 can't remember exactly which period this was.

Page 7931

1 Q. Milenko Cancar who told you this was a policeman at the KP Dom,

2 right?

3 A. He worked in the Security Service.

4 Q. That's the same thing as a policeman; is that right?

5 A. But that day he wasn't on duty when I asked him about that.

6 Q. But nevertheless, his function during the war from April 1992

7 until the time you left was as a policeman in security of the KP Dom,

8 right?

9 A. He worked in security, and from when until when, I can't remember.

10 MS. KUO: The Prosecution will draw the Court's attention to

11 Exhibit P3, that Milenko Cancar is listed at 26.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

13 MS. KUO:

14 Q. Mr. Cancar told you what he did about the list because you were

15 interested, right? You've told us that you were interested.

16 A. I asked him whether a few days ago a group was taken for an

17 exchange, and he said yes. And I said, "Well, please tell me how did this

18 take place?" And he said, "As far as I know, there was a list, it was

19 brought in, people were taken out, and they were taken for an exchange."

20 Q. Didn't you ask him further where the list came from and how it was

21 compiled?

22 A. I didn't ask him further. I didn't ask him anything further.

23 This was in passing in front of the KP Dom. I don't know whether he was

24 in more of a hurry or me, but I didn't ask him anything else because, in a

25 way, it occurred to me that this list had to come from the outside, most

Page 7932

1 probably from the military command.

2 Q. Why did that occur to you?

3 A. Well, that's what I thought at that moment, because that part of

4 the KP Dom had been rented out to the military command and that they were

5 disposing with these people.

6 Q. But you're telling us that your curiosity about this matter

7 stopped at that point, that you never asked anybody further where these

8 lists were coming from?

9 A. Well, no. I said that we just met in passing. One of us was in a

10 hurry. We didn't really stay long, and it's not that we could have talked

11 about it in more detail.

12 Q. But you never asked anybody else about where these lists came

13 from, did you?

14 A. I didn't.

15 Q. You learned from your colleague RJ that detainees were

16 disappearing overnight, right? He told you that.

17 A. My colleague never told me that, or did I ever find out about

18 that.

19 Q. You never learned that there were people who simply disappeared

20 from the KP Dom?

21 A. Never.

22 Q. Surely you noticed that the numbers of detainees were going down

23 based on the food supplies that were necessary, right?

24 A. Never. No one ever told me that, nor could I find out about that.

25 Q. You never knew that the numbers of Muslim detainees were

Page 7933

1 decreasing during the months of June and July?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Isn't it true you knew the exact number of detainees who were in

4 the KP Dom in the beginning of June?

5 A. That was not accessible to me at all. It's not that I could have

6 known about it.

7 Q. I just want to be clear about this: You're telling us that you

8 had no idea what the number of Muslim detainees was in June of 1992?

9 A. I did not know.

10 Q. On the 17th of September, you were in the KP Dom when the group of

11 people allegedly being taken for plum picking passed through the yard,

12 right?

13 A. Please, I don't know at all where I was on the 17th of September,

14 but I certainly do not know about this group, that it was taken, or did I

15 see them at all.

16 Q. Are you saying you also never learned about this group that

17 everybody has been talking about?

18 A. I never heard about such a group or did I learn about this plum

19 picking until I read about it in the statements that you gave me here in

20 The Hague.

21 Q. Are you saying, sir, that it never happened, or that it could have

22 happened but no one ever told you about it?

23 A. As for anything I did not see with my own eyes or hear with my own

24 ears, I cannot make any assertions in respect of that. The only thing I

25 can assert is that I did not hear anything about that.

Page 7934

1 Q. But you can't say where you were on the 17th of September, 1992,

2 can you?

3 A. I certainly can't say. I can't even say whether I was at the KP

4 Dom at all on that day because to know such a day very precisely, I mean,

5 it could have been a Saturday or a Sunday, I could have been away over the

6 weekend.

7 Q. And you did not work on Saturdays or Sundays, right?

8 A. No one in the economic unit worked on Saturdays and Sundays, the

9 Drina Economic Unit.

10 Q. You never signed any documents, therefore, on a Saturday or a

11 Sunday?

12 A. I could not have signed anything if I was not there.

13 Q. In other words, you never took documents elsewhere or were given

14 documents to sign on a Saturday or a Sunday, right?

15 A. There was no need for that, and I do not recall anyone having

16 brought me a document to sign on a Saturday or a Sunday.

17 Q. And the date on a document that has your signature would be

18 accurate, right, as being the date that you signed it?

19 A. Well, that's the way it should be, but it doesn't have to be that

20 way necessarily. A date could be put that actually pertained to the day

21 after that or the day before that. It depends on when it was written,

22 actually.

23 Q. Actually, the date that's on a document is the date that it's

24 written, then, not necessarily the day that you signed it. Is that what

25 you're saying?

Page 7935












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Page 7936

1 A. Possibly, yes. There is that possibility, but I'm not asserting

2 that because I don't know which document we are talking about or anything

3 else about that. There is such a possibility.

4 Q. Talking about the general procedures, since you mentioned that you

5 weren't present on a Saturday or Sunday. The date on a document is the

6 date the document was written. That would be accurate, right?

7 A. In my opinion, that's the way it is.

8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you passed on specific requests from Muslim

9 detainees for release, right?

10 A. There were requests that I passed on. I admit that.

11 Q. Yet you told the investigators of the OTP, "I have no connection

12 to the detainees in the KP Dom, nor did I ever propose to anyone -- nor

13 did I ever propose that anyone be released from KP Dom." You remember

14 making that statement?

15 A. I'm saying now as well that I had nothing to do with them, and

16 that I never had anyone to make proposals to in respect of somebody's

17 release from the KP Dom, and I never gave such a proposal to anyone.

18 Q. But you did pass along the requests, in one case to the Crisis

19 Staff and in another case to the Foca Tactical Group, right?

20 A. Please, that's different, passing on a piece of paper, passing on

21 somebody's request. But I did not have any agreement with the person who

22 was sending the request or with the addressee; but to pass on a paper,

23 yes, the truth is that that did happen.

24 Q. I'm going to show you, with the assistance of the usher, Exhibit

25 D67. This is your signature, right, as acting warden?

Page 7937

1 A. This is my signature.

2 Q. And you have written a short note to the Crisis Staff saying,

3 "Please find enclosed the request which we are forwarding to you for

4 further action," right?

5 A. That's what it says here.

6 Q. You received the request from Enes Zekovic while you were the

7 acting warden in the KP Dom, right?

8 A. As long as it's written here, that's the way it is, but ...

9 Q. How was it that you came to receive this request from Enes

10 Zekovic? How did it end up in your hands?

11 A. The date is the 15th of May and it says here quite properly that

12 his request is being forwarded, his request to be released from detention,

13 but now I would like to see what it says on the actual request, who it was

14 sent to. If it was sent to the Crisis Staff, then I sent this document

15 directly to them, because I sent the document, forwarded it, to the same

16 addressee that this person had put. How it reached me, I really don't

17 know. On the 15th of May, probably somebody brought it to me, either

18 through some of the guards that they knew. Perhaps they asked one of the

19 guards, "Please hand this over to Milorad." But then I passed this on

20 immediately. I don't know what it says on the request itself, who it was

21 addressed to, but as long as the address that I put was to the Crisis

22 Staff of the Serbian municipality, then probably that is what the request

23 actually said. Is this only this paper, without the actual contents, the

24 actual request? Or do we have the request as well?

25 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to show you Exhibit

Page 7938

1 D67/1 and that is the text of the request. We can see from D67/1 that

2 this request, signed by Enes Zekovic, was addressed to the Crisis Staff.

3 A. Please, Mr. Enes Zekovic also addressed this to the Crisis Staff

4 of the Serbian Municipality of Foca, and through my own letter, I

5 forwarded this very same request to the Crisis Staff, because there was no

6 point -- I mean, he must have known this for sure because he addressed it

7 to the Crisis Staff itself. He also realised it was no use sending this

8 to Milorad. Maybe he trusted me, that I would forward this, that I would

9 pass it on and that it would actually get into the hands of the person or

10 people he addressed it to.

11 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, this letter wasn't addressed to you at all, was

12 it?

13 A. No, it was not addressed to me. It says here the Crisis Staff, to

14 the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Foca.

15 Q. Yet you prepared a note forwarding this letter on behalf of the KP

16 Dom to the Crisis Staff, right? You didn't just pass this letter on to

17 the Crisis Staff, because it wasn't addressed to you.

18 A. I forwarded it to those to whom it was addressed. I personally

19 think that Mr. Zekovic knew that I had nothing to do with them. If you

20 allow me to say this, if this was a convicted person who was serving his

21 prison sentence, then I would have forwarded that to the ministry.

22 However, here it says "to the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of

23 Foca." I passed it on to them.

24 Q. Thank you. With the assistance of the usher --

25 A. Thank you, too.

Page 7939












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Page 7940

1 Q. -- I would like the witness shown Exhibit D66.

2 This is again a note signed by you in your official capacity as

3 the warden. This one is addressed to the Foca Tactical Group, dated 30th

4 July 1992, and this also is a cover sheet forwarding two requests for

5 release from detainees. Here you've called them prisoners of war, but

6 really they were being detained at the KP Dom, right?

7 A. It says here, "Please find enclosed requests for release from

8 detention of prisoners of war Ismet Pasovic and Sadik --" I can't see;

9 these glasses aren't good. I can't read the last name -- "for further

10 procedure." I don't know who it is addressed to, but yes, this is my

11 signature, and I forwarded this document as well to the Tactical Group.

12 It probably pertained to the Tactical Group, this request did, I mean.

13 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have you shown

14 Exhibit D66/1. This is a copy of one of the requests that you attached,

15 right, that you forwarded on to the Foca Tactical Group?

16 A. Well, here it says, "To the KP Dom warden, request for release

17 from the KP Dom." That's the subject. Please, there is no need for me to

18 repeat this: Part of the KP Dom was rented out to the military.

19 Q. Sir, you're right, there is no need for you to repeat that. My

20 question to you is, this was addressed to you as the warden, right? Not

21 to the Tactical Group.

22 A. To the warden of the KP Dom. I have to give an explanation, if at

23 all possible, please. I was not their warden. I sent it to the Tactical

24 Group because their warden was in the Tactical Group. So that's why I

25 forwarded the document to the Tactical Group, because I had no authority

Page 7941

1 whatsoever over these persons --

2 Q. Sir --

3 A. -- who were brought into custody.

4 Q. I'd like to make one thing absolutely clear. Are you now saying

5 that you were not the warden of the KP Dom, even after the 17th of July,

6 1992? You've given us an explanation of what you said your duties were,

7 but I just want to be clear about the title. Are you denying now that you

8 had the title of warden of KP Dom?

9 A. Warden of the KP Dom and the manager of the Drina Economic Unit,

10 both.

11 Q. So this letter was, in fact, addressed to you, right?

12 A. Please, a part of the KP Dom was let out to the army, and their

13 warden was in the Tactical Group. I was not their warden.

14 Q. Sir, that's what I want to get clear. When somebody writes a

15 letter that has the title "Warden of KP Dom Foca," that was you, right?

16 A. But I'm not competent to discuss this letter --

17 Q. Is it your position --

18 A. -- and this proposal. I do not have competence over this.

19 Q. Is it your position that you're not disputing that this was

20 directed to you and in fact it reached you, right?

21 A. This is addressed to the warden of the KP Dom, and it doesn't say

22 to Milorad Krnojelac. In other words, I forwarded this letter, together

23 with the other one, to the Tactical Group, because a part of the KP Dom

24 had been let out to the army. You should understand me. I don't know how

25 to explain it to you. I have no other words to explain to you. And you

Page 7942

1 want me to be brief.

2 Q. Sir, who delivered this letter to you? It was a guard, wasn't it?

3 A. Believe me, I do not know, but as likely as not, one of the guards

4 who knew well Mr. Pasovic, and he says here that he personally asked

5 Mr. Stanic and Mladjenovic.

6 Q. You don't need to read the letter to us, that's not important what

7 the details are. But you did not have personal contact with Mr. Pasovic,

8 right? This letter was given to you through a guard.

9 A. I didn't. No, no, no, no, no. I had no contact. Somebody must

10 have delivered it. For reasons of confidentiality, he gave it to him, and

11 then he gave it to me, and I forwarded it on because it is outside my

12 competence.

13 Q. And the intermediary who took the letter from Mr. Pasovic and gave

14 it to you was most likely a guard because those were the people who had

15 contact with the detainees and could deliver these things to you, right?

16 A. Yes, that is very probable. They could do it.

17 Q. I'd like to show you Exhibit D66/2.

18 A. Just a moment.

19 Q. This is also one of the attachments that you forwarded to the

20 Tactical Group. It's a request by Mr. Demirovic, who was also a detainee,

21 and this request was not addressed to anyone in particular, right?

22 A. Sadik Demirovic. I don't know how the letter reached me, but if

23 it did reach me, then it was without doubt sent on to the Tactical Group

24 for consideration because it did not stay in my drawer, that is for

25 certain. It was forwarded, like all the other documents. Any document

Page 7943

1 that reached me was forwarded to the Tactical Group. That is the

2 addressee. And this one, and I can't see here -- yeah, right. I don't

3 see that this was addressed to anyone, but then it must have been

4 forwarded to the Tactical Group, too, because there is now the name of the

5 addressee.

6 Q. I understand that you forwarded this on to the Tactical Group, but

7 it is a fact, isn't it, that this request ended up in your hands so that

8 you could forward it on, right? It came to you.

9 A. Yes. But no sooner did it come to me than it was forwarded on,

10 and it was forwarded on because I did that.

11 Q. It was brought to you, again, most likely through a guard who got

12 the letter from Mr. Demirovic and delivered it to you, right?

13 A. I suppose so, yes. Highly likely.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. Or perhaps one of the administrative clerks, if he knew him,

16 perhaps, and then gave it to some administrative worker. But in one way

17 or the other, that is how it came to me. I don't remember.

18 Q. But in other words, through somebody who was working in the KP Dom

19 at that time, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. We don't need this document any more.

22 Mr. Krnojelac, in order to forward the first document to the

23 Crisis Staff and then also to forward the second set of documents to the

24 Foca Tactical Group, you had to have their addresses, right?

25 A. A document -- when I received a document, I would write with a

Page 7944

1 pencil the reference number, then send it on to the registration office,

2 and then that office would forward it on to the addressee.

3 Q. When you say "registration office," what exactly do you mean? Was

4 there an office within the KP Dom that took care of outgoing mail?

5 A. A person responsible for mail, and their room in which that person

6 works, that is what I called it. And that person responsible for the mail

7 would forward that mail to the addressee.

8 Q. The person responsible for the mail leaving KP Dom was responsible

9 for all the mail leaving KP Dom, right?

10 A. Well, if it had to do with the economic unit, then yes. If it was

11 something else or, rather, somebody else, then he was not responsible.

12 Q. Are you saying that that mail person was not responsible for any

13 military mail?

14 A. The military mail never came to the economic unit except that

15 request for the lease of KP Dom, but it was addressed to the KP Dom, the

16 economic unit; that is, the KP Dom.

17 Q. Are you saying that the mail person that you're talking to -- I'm

18 sorry, that the mail person that you refer to did not handle any military

19 mail at all, that it was one person who was only working for the Drina

20 Economic Unit with regard to mail? Is that what you're saying?

21 A. The KP Dom belonged to the Ministry of Justice, and it did not

22 account to anyone else but the Ministry of Justice.

23 Q. When you -- the letters that we just looked at and you had

24 addressed to the Foca Tactical Group and the Crisis Staff did not have any

25 addresses on it, so it's fair to say that the person in the mail room knew

Page 7945

1 where these letters would be sent, right? That person knew the address?

2 A. Well, they would, surely. Or perhaps there was the address on the

3 envelope, on the envelope.

4 Q. Which envelope?

5 A. Well, it would be put in an envelope with the same address as on

6 the document, if you understand what I mean.

7 Q. You -- in the letters that we have just read, there is no street

8 address, it simply says, for example, "Crisis Staff." Was that sufficient

9 to get the letter delivered?

10 A. Well, I know -- I see no reason why not. Why wouldn't it be so,

11 if it is a written document?

12 Q. So there was somebody who could deliver this to the Crisis Staff

13 and to the Foca Tactical Group, if that was the address written on the

14 envelope?

15 A. Why not?

16 Q. When you received these requests from the three detainees, they

17 weren't in sealed envelopes, right? You read them?

18 A. I don't remember reading them. As soon as I would see the

19 addressee, I could already then say whether one could see it from the

20 subject. I don't remember reading them. There was no need for me to read

21 them. As soon as you see a request for release, that is the subject, you

22 know what else it says, so why should I read it?

23 Q. But you read them enough to know that they were in fact requests

24 for release, right?

25 A. Please, in the first line, the subject, it says reference, it says

Page 7946

1 what it's about, so there is no need to read the text. And perhaps that

2 was even in the envelope and I never opened it. Perhaps it said on the

3 envelope, and you send it together with the envelope. Perhaps that's how

4 it was.

5 Q. I'm sorry, I'm terribly sorry, Mr. Krnojelac, you're talking now

6 about envelopes. The three letters that you forwarded on which were

7 requests for release were not in sealed envelopes, were they? You read

8 the letters, maybe not thoroughly, but they were open to you so you knew

9 what they were about, right? This would be -- go on.

10 A. I'm telling you perhaps, maybe, perhaps they already were in their

11 envelopes and perhaps it said on the envelope "to the Crisis Staff" or "to

12 the warden of the KP Dom," and then came the letter. Perhaps it need not

13 be, but if you read the addressee, then there is no need to read the

14 contents of the letter.

15 Q. Sir, I'm going to have to show you Exhibit 66 and 67 again. First

16 let's start with 67.

17 JUDGE HUNT: This is D66 and 67?

18 MS. KUO: Yes.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

20 MS. KUO:

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, in this letter, which you signed, it specifically

22 says, "Please find enclosed the request of detainee Enes Zekovic for

23 release from detention." So you knew exactly what it was about. It was

24 not in any sort of envelope that just had "Crisis Staff" on it, right?

25 A. Yes, but please, couldn't it be possible that it said on the

Page 7947












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Page 7948

1 envelope "to the Crisis Staff of the Serb Municipality," and then Milorad

2 writes on a paper in his hand, "Forward it," and then this is attached to

3 the envelope and sent on. That was a possibility. And then it is merely

4 sent on to the person indicated on the addressee or on the case itself, on

5 the subject itself, unless it was in an envelope. But if it was in an

6 envelope, then I surely did not open the envelope to read it but I'd look

7 to see who it was intended for and then I would forward it to the

8 addressee. I don't know why you can't understand that, or is it that I'm

9 explaining it badly?

10 Q. Sir, I certainly understand that you wish the court to believe

11 that this was a possibility. I understand that much. But let me ask you

12 this: A detainee, like a prisoner, was certainly not allowed to send mail

13 out freely without it being inspected for content, right? That is

14 regular, standard procedure for any sort of detention centre or prison.

15 A. I do not know if it went through censorship or inspection. I'm

16 not aware of that, because it was the military part and I do not know what

17 kind of procedure they applied.

18 Q. You want the court to believe that a sealed envelope came to you

19 that was addressed to the Crisis Staff, that you didn't open it but merely

20 sent it on, and yet you wrote a letter to the Crisis Staff telling them

21 that you were sending it on? Is that what you're saying?

22 A. I am putting it to you and saying under full responsibility that

23 if it was sealed, then I did not open it, nor did I inspect it, nor did I

24 have any authority to do it.

25 Q. I'd like to show you now D66. Mr. Krnojelac, are you telling us

Page 7949

1 that these requests for release that you forwarded on to the Foca Tactical

2 Group also arrived to you in sealed envelopes?

3 A. If it said on it "to the Tactical Group," and it was sealed, then

4 I didn't open it. On the envelope. If it was in the envelope, or if it

5 said "to the warden of the KP Dom," as it says above this request, then I

6 did open it because I didn't know what it was about. But then, if I saw

7 that it was to the warden but requesting the release from prison, then I

8 would seal this envelope and forward the document to the Tactical Group

9 because their warden was in the Tactical Group in that case. But depends

10 on what it said on the envelope. If it said "to the warden of the KP

11 Dom," then I would open it, because it could be something personal or

12 whatever. But as soon as I opened the document and see that it has to do

13 with a release and know I can do nothing about it, then I send it on to

14 the person authorised to deal with these matters.

15 Q. And in the course of doing that, you took the trouble of writing a

16 note that you signed, saying that you were forwarding these requests,

17 right?

18 A. It's my signature.

19 Q. Thank you. We don't need these documents any more.

20 A. Because I forwarded it on.

21 Q. Regarding Mr. Enes Zekovic, isn't it true that sometime after the

22 19th of April 1992, you received a call from your friend Zarko Vukovic,

23 forwarding a request orally from Mr. Zekovic's relative to have him

24 released? Isn't that right?

25 A. I put it to you that Mr. Vukovic never did that, because

Page 7950

1 Mr. Vukovic knew only too well that I had nothing to do with those people

2 as regards their release and their departure and their -- their release

3 from prison. And I do not even know Mr. Enes Zekovic, I mean, if I met

4 him in the street and said, "Well, this is Enes Zekovic." All I heard was

5 that he was employed in the municipal hall of Foca, but what his job was

6 there, I don't know.

7 Q. Isn't it true that you told Zarko Vukovic that you couldn't

8 guarantee that Enes Zekovic would be released but that he wouldn't be

9 beaten?

10 A. No, that is not true, because Zarko Vukovic did not ask me that or

11 say that because he knew it himself.

12 Q. Mr. Zekovic, Enes Zekovic, was released in about June 1992; isn't

13 that right?

14 A. I have no idea when he was released, nor do I know when he was

15 released.

16 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you've stated that when you came to the KP Dom that

17 there was a great deal of damage, and you've told us that this was

18 inflicted by the Muslims when they were in the KP Dom. Isn't it true that

19 the -- there were also other Serb military forces in the KP Dom before you

20 arrived?

21 A. Before I arrived there was this Uzice group, as I've already said.

22 Q. So you don't --

23 A. They arrived before me.

24 Q. You don't actually know whether members of the Uzice group, who

25 were Serbs, inflicted damage on the KP Dom, do you?

Page 7951

1 A. They said that they found it in the state that I found it in, and

2 that is what was recorded.

3 Q. And you believed them. You took their word for it, right?

4 A. Well, the commission itself wrote this document, that it had been

5 destroyed, probably because there was also civilian population

6 accommodated there. That is what I heard from others, that there was

7 civilian population was accommodated there during the operations in Foca.

8 Q. My question to you, sir, is you don't actually know for a fact

9 that the damage that you found at KP Dom when you arrived was inflicted by

10 the Muslims rather than by the Serbs, do you?

11 A. All I know is that my commission noted that, and I trusted that

12 commission which drew up the record of the situation of the state that the

13 KP Dom was in.

14 Q. The commission wasn't in existence before the group from Uzice

15 came to the KP Dom, right? The damage they assessed was after that group

16 had already arrived.

17 A. Well, the commission couldn't come during the military operations.

18 They came afterwards, naturally. And the commission then noted that those

19 were the effects, because the unit from Uzice could not have papers,

20 regs. I don't think they would be strewing things about and breaking down

21 tables. Of course, it is possible, one could not exclude it, but I did

22 not see it and I cannot say that it was something else. All I saw -- all

23 I did was agree with them that damage had been inflicted.

24 Q. Sir, some of the damage you found at the KP Dom was inflicted by

25 shells dropped onto the KP Dom, right? Not just from people within it.

Page 7952

1 A. I think that the record also says somewhere that, yes, that there

2 was this two shells and fragments of shells and bullets. The damage was

3 caused by the combat operations, a large part of that. Because broken

4 glass and broken doors, well, this is physical destruction, and the rest,

5 logically the consequence -- the aftermath of fighting.

6 Q. Your commission could not determine who dropped those shells on KP

7 Dom, could it?

8 A. There was fighting. Who fired them?

9 Q. You don't know, right?

10 A. I neither saw nor knew nor took part in the fighting to know.

11 Q. Part of the job of the guards at the KP Dom was to make sure that

12 people didn't come in and do damage to the property, right?

13 A. From what I know, that is why it is called the internal and

14 external security. And I suppose the superior had told them what they

15 were to do and how to act in those jobs.

16 Q. And especially the external security, they would have been

17 important to the functioning of your job in securing the safety of the

18 property, right?

19 A. All these outside facilities were locked up, and even if there

20 were not a man there responsible for it, but an incidental passerby could

21 be logically expected to protect it so it doesn't get destroyed any

22 further. So it must have been within that context that they did it

23 because as soon as you have a man there, then another man won't dare come

24 and break the door as soon as he sees a guard.

25 Q. If a guard of external security was somehow not doing his job

Page 7953












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7954

1 correctly and allowed somebody to come in who destroyed the property of

2 the KP Dom, you would have had a complaint against that guard, right, for

3 allowing the destruction of property?

4 A. Perhaps I would have complained about him, but I wouldn't have the

5 right to punish him or anything because I had not appointed him to that

6 position. Then I would have to appoint a different guard who would only

7 guard that gate, that entrance. But since that did not happen, no other

8 guards were put there except for the security that was there at the

9 external part.

10 Q. To whom would you have complained about such a guard?

11 A. I said that I could not complain to anyone, nor could I punish

12 him. Then I would somehow have to provide a person from among the work

13 obligations to stand guard there. But fortunately, I didn't have to think

14 about that. But it could have happened, but it didn't happen. Not that I

15 know of, that somebody broke through a door or -- except that once a

16 window was broken in the restaurant and a few wine bottles and juices were

17 stolen, but that was an outside job.

18 Q. When you say the restaurant, which restaurant do you mean; the one

19 outside the KP Dom or the one inside?

20 A. Outside the KP Dom.

21 Q. You said --

22 A. On the right bank of the Drina.

23 Q. I'd like to clear up something that's on the transcript. The

24 transcript reflects that at first when you were asked about what you would

25 do, you said that, "Perhaps I would have complained about the guard, but I

Page 7955

1 wouldn't have the right to punish him." And then later on you say no, you

2 could not complain to anyone.

3 Could you complain to anyone if a guard permitted someone to come

4 and destroy property? That was within your jurisdiction, wasn't it?

5 A. I don't know whether there would be any use from that or not, but

6 I know that I naturally could send a letter of that kind to the Tactical

7 Group or, rather, the military command saying that that kind of thing was

8 happening. Or I would inform the police station and then let them use

9 their own know-how as to what should be done and against whom proceedings

10 should be initiated, that's what I meant. Because I would like it to be

11 obvious that I had taken measures in order to stop the damage of property,

12 and then, according to law, somebody else would investigate why such a

13 person did such a thing or whether this person was attacked by someone

14 else and he had no choice, things like that.

15 Q. And you also stated - I just want to get this clarified - "I would

16 somehow have to provide a person from among the work obligation to stand

17 guard there, but fortunately I didn't have to think about that." Do you

18 mean that you had the authority to appoint somebody to stand guard

19 specifically to guard property?

20 A. Well, did I? For example, the kiosk where salespeople were

21 selling, it was their duty to come a few times during the night to see

22 whether the kiosk had been looted. And then in the morning if he would

23 come and if he would see that the kiosk had been looted, then he'd have to

24 report to the police station, and then an inventory would be made of all

25 the things that went missing, and then the police would take action. They

Page 7956

1 would look for the thief, and now whether they would find him or not, that

2 is debatable, like many other things, even in peacetime, let alone in

3 wartime.

4 Q. And you're talking about kiosks in Foca where products from the KP

5 Dom were being sold, right?

6 A. Not only the KP Dom; where products that were obtained through

7 barter were -- and also furniture, for things that you would find. So

8 various goods were sold in these kiosks.

9 Q. So regarding security, then, the same people who were guarding the

10 KP Dom compound were there to guard the people as well as the property,

11 right? There was no --

12 A. I never told them to guard property, but since these are workers

13 of the KP Dom, they probably consider this to be their own, because I

14 never consider myself a person who would stay there for long as warden.

15 It was quite obvious. A warden had to have a university education, and

16 they were aware of the fact that I would be leaving sooner rather than

17 later. And it was theirs because they had left a large part of their

18 lives there, their careers, so it was only logical for them to safeguard

19 that property.

20 Q. There was no separate guard division or police security service

21 that was guarding only the property, right?

22 A. No, no, no.

23 Q. And the Drina Economic Unit also did not have its own security

24 force, did it?

25 A. Only at the farm, at the farm over there. It had to over there

Page 7957

1 because the farm is a separate part, and it is semi-open, if you can put

2 it that way. It's that type of a prison, because they had to have

3 security there not only because of the detained persons, but also so that

4 someone from the outside would not come to steal a cow, a pig, whatever

5 could be stolen, that is, so that is where this special security was.

6 Q. But even those special security people were within the

7 administration of the main security at KP Dom, right?

8 A. No. These were separate people who were appointed for work

9 obligation at the Brioni farm, except if someone in the meantime, due to

10 certain justified reasons, would be transferred from the security of the

11 KP Dom to the farm, and then that person would not have to return for --

12 to work for the security of the KP Dom. I know about that. I know about

13 one particular case of a man's son getting killed in the war, and he even

14 had a nervous breakdown and all that, and then he was transferred to the

15 farm after that, when he got back from sick leave.

16 Q. You've told us, sir, that Mitar Rasevic was in charge of the

17 guards at the KP Dom. Who was in charge of the guards at the farm?

18 A. Throughout that work, it was Mr. Novica Mojovic who was in charge

19 of them at the farm and he appointed some of these senior guards, so they

20 took turns. It was important for shifts to be determined. Milorad would

21 be standing guard here today at such and such a date, and then, instead of

22 him, such and such a person would be standing guard the other day. Just

23 in order to rotate it. It wasn't really a problem. This is a pretty

24 small area anyway. This is hilly, mountainous terrain. It's small. So

25 there was no special person who was appointed commander except if he

Page 7958

1 would, say, make up the shifts and see who will be on the security

2 details, but people who worked at the farm knew.

3 Q. When Muslim detainees came from the KP Dom compound to work on the

4 farm, they were guarded by the guards at the farm, right, during the time

5 that they were there?

6 A. I'm not sure whether it was always that way, but I assume that

7 they guarded them, but sometimes perhaps others came as well. I'm not

8 sure.

9 Q. So sometimes guards from the KP Dom did come to the farm, right?

10 Is that what you're saying?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And when the Muslim detainees worked on the farm, they were side

13 by side with the Serb convicted prisoners working on the farm, right?

14 They worked together?

15 A. I could not say that they worked side by side because there was no

16 need for them to work side by side. If these detained persons from the KP

17 Dom would happen to come, then they would do something at a particular

18 place, whereas these other people did their everyday jobs that they were

19 supposed to do, so they did not have to be working side by side ever; I

20 mean together.

21 Q. When there were Muslim detainees and Serb convicted prisoners

22 working at the farm at the same time, did they share the same security

23 service, the same people guarding both groups?

24 A. I do not know all the details about this because I didn't go

25 there. Late Novica Mojovic knew about it, and the rest of the company who

Page 7959

1 were there.

2 Q. There were times when the Serb convicted prisoners were working in

3 the KP Dom compound at the same time as the Muslim detainees, right?

4 A. In the compound, Muslim detainees? They didn't work there except

5 in the factory, in the compound, except the factory.

6 Q. This is what I mean. When they worked in the factory and the

7 metalwork shop, there were both Serb prisoners and Muslim detainees at the

8 same time, right?

9 A. If there was a special one, I wouldn't know, but there was some --

10 somebody with some special skills, they would probably work together, but

11 I am not aware, I -- I don't know it.

12 Q. But when the furniture factory is running, when people are working

13 there - and you've told us that there were Muslim detainees as well as

14 Serb prisoners working in the factory - they had the same security

15 service, right? It wasn't different guards assigned only for the Muslim

16 detainees and then another set of guards assigned only for the Serb

17 prisoners. It was all the same when they were working in the factory;

18 isn't that right?

19 A. Believe me when I say that I do not know if there were such cases

20 when Serb and Muslims worked at one and the same time, because these three

21 or four, depends, they mostly dealt with Mr. Lazar Divljan as regards the

22 stocks and these things, so that I am not aware if they worked in the

23 furniture factory. Perhaps it did happen later on, but I am not aware

24 that they worked, except they helped Lazar with the storeroom, with the

25 loading, unloading, packing and that sort of thing.

Page 7960

1 Q. When you say "these three or four," are you referring to Serbs or

2 Muslims?

3 A. I'm talking about persons serving their time. I'm talking about

4 persons serving their time. But if you're -- since you're asking me about

5 Serbs, they who had committed some petty offences, I don't know about

6 this, whether they mingled or not. That's what the security -- the guards

7 know and their chief.

8 Q. The people serving their terms, then, were the ones that you refer

9 to as working with the warehouse person, right?

10 A. Those who had been convicted and were serving their terms.

11 Q. And when they were working with the warehouse person, they were

12 not being guarded, were they?

13 A. Well, there is no need to guard them. Those were people who had

14 been vetted. There was no need to guard them, because they were aware --

15 had they wanted to, as soon as the thing earlier happened - and you heard

16 it from statements - as soon as the gate was opened, had they wanted to,

17 they would have fled the KP Dom. So they were not people who wanted to

18 escape anywhere because they had the opportunity to escape and not serve

19 their sentences any longer, as soon as the penitentiary was open.

20 Q. Let me ask you this, then, since you've told us that you were in

21 charge of these people doing -- serving their sentences: Based on what

22 you told us, you considered them a very low security risk, right? You

23 didn't consider it necessary to guard them very tightly against escape?

24 A. They were kept separately in the building. So from the building,

25 he goes to the warehouse, does what he has to do, and goes back to the

Page 7961

1 building. As far as I can understand, they were in that part in the

2 building facing the furniture factory, on an upper floor.

3 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I'm not asking you just about the few people

4 working with the warehouse worker, but the 25 or so convicted persons

5 serving their sentence that you've told the court you were in charge of;

6 you didn't consider any of them a high security risk, did you, and you

7 treated them accordingly, right?

8 A. Excuse me, but not all these people were in the KP Dom. They were

9 at the Brioni farm, and Mr. Novica Mojovic was responsible for them, and

10 he had assumed that responsibility. And he said he'd take care of them

11 and employ them because he needed them most at the -- on the farm, because

12 they had to do all those jobs that had to be done on the farm, and that is

13 why I was not all that concerned about them.

14 Q. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, so let me get this cleared up.

15 Mr. Mojovic was basically in charge of the farm so there was no need for

16 you to go there very often and oversee what was happening there, right?

17 A. He was responsible, but he left quite often for various reasons.

18 Q. Sir --

19 A. I did go there.

20 Q. Sir, whenever I asked you questions about the farm, you've told us

21 that Mr. Mojovic was in charge, and so my question to you was: You didn't

22 have very much to do with the farm. It was Mr. Mojovic who was dealing

23 with the everyday running of it. You were simply his superior, right?

24 But the details --

25 A. I went there quite often.

Page 7962












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7963

1 Q. If you went there that often, you seem not to know a great deal

2 about the issues I'm asking you about. I've asked you about the guards,

3 and you've told us that you were not there that often. Now you're telling

4 us that you were there very often.

5 A. Well, if I went to see if the production was progressing, if there

6 was any shortage of food, if some other food had to be obtained, then we

7 didn't talk about guards, and there was no need to, because he was the top

8 one there. And to be quite honest, it would happen at times, well,

9 there's nothing to do here, so let's go and see what about things there,

10 whether there is a need to go and purchase something for them or just have

11 a cup of coffee over there, yeah.

12 Q. And there were -- most of the convicted people serving their

13 sentences were housed at the farm, right? The overwhelming majority

14 actually were housed at the farm rather than the KP Dom complex?

15 A. Yes, because there were also rooms where they could be -- where

16 they could put up.

17 Q. And the question that I started this discussion with was regarding

18 those people and whether you felt that they were a security risk. You

19 didn't think that they were a high risk of fleeing, right?

20 A. The risk, there was no risk, because there wasn't a single

21 attempt, so that one did not have to think and guard against their trying

22 to escape or not trying to escape.

23 Q. Let me ask you about your relationship with Mr. Mojovic. You were

24 his superior, right, in the hierarchy?

25 A. Yes, according to red tape.

Page 7964

1 Q. Which means that if something happened, if he did something, that

2 you would be responsible to -- for that as his superior, right?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. And if there was something going on at the farm, you made sure to

5 be informed about it, right?

6 A. Right, that I should be informed.

7 Q. And it wasn't the kind of situation where, if you didn't see it,

8 you could just say, "Well, I didn't see it so I'm not responsible for

9 that," right?

10 A. I wouldn't put it that way, but if it -- if something happened,

11 then somebody must be responsible. I mean, whenever something is done,

12 somebody must be responsible for it. And in that case, he would be the

13 first one to account for it, and then I wouldn't do anything about it

14 unless I wrote a paper to the ministry because if something like that

15 happened, then I would have to write to the ministry to know who did

16 something and what he did.

17 Q. If you found out that somebody at the farm did something wrong,

18 you would have to find out about it and, if you could, punish that person,

19 right?

20 A. I had no rules of the procedure to punish anyone. I merely find

21 out, investigate, and if an offence had been committed or if something

22 that I didn't know what to do with it, then I would notify the ministry in

23 writing as to what had been done, what had been found out, and they would,

24 I suppose, issue me with the guidelines as to what to do and how to

25 resolve it. Whether I should be dismissed or the one who did that, they

Page 7965

1 would decide as to what would need to be done next. Because I came from

2 teaching, I couldn't really be familiar with all those mechanisms and laws

3 and how these things were resolved. That is how I would have acted had

4 something like that happened, but it didn't.

5 Q. But the procedures that you've outlined for us now were known to

6 you at that time, right, in case something did happen?

7 A. Well, had something happened, that is how I would have done, as I

8 have just told you.

9 Q. If you found out that one of the persons serving their term at the

10 farm had been beaten up by one of the staff members, you would have to

11 investigate that, right?

12 A. I would have to initiate the investigation and notify the ministry

13 of such an incident, and then they would tell me what I should do next, or

14 perhaps they would take over the case. But I would have to do that.

15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I'd like to ask you about your house, and we've

16 heard a lot of testimony about the workers who came to fix your house.

17 You've told us that you made the request to the municipality and that

18 after that, without your making any arrangements for the details,

19 materials arrived for your house, right?

20 A. Excuse me, what time are you referring to? When is it they made

21 that -- applied for it? What time, what period of time do you have in

22 mind?

23 Q. I'm talking about the time frame in late 1992 that you made --

24 you've told us you made a request for your house to be repaired about a

25 month or two before the end of that year, right?

Page 7966












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7967

1 A. Please, I did not say -- give me that document and that proof that

2 I had made that request. I went to the municipal hall of Foca and found

3 Mr. Radovic who was responsible, who was in charge of refugees and those

4 whose houses had burnt down. And orally I asked him to give me something,

5 whether a tent, a tarpaulin, or perhaps some plastic sheets to protect the

6 surface of the building, which was roofless, to protect it against further

7 ruin.

8 I didn't submit any request for repair. Don't -- unless you have

9 a document to this effect, then don't accuse me of making such a request.

10 It was an oral application to protect it from further ruin because I

11 wanted to return to that house, if luck would serve me --

12 Q. Sir, sir --

13 A. -- with my family, and I wanted to protect it against further

14 ruin.

15 Q. Sir, no one accused you or said anything about making a written

16 request. The question was whether you've made any sort of a request, and

17 you've now told us that it was an oral request.

18 MS. KUO: And I think it's time for lunch.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, we'll adjourn now. We'll resume at 2.30 when we

20 will take Ms. Najman's evidence.

21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00





Page 7968

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, the Trial Chamber has had a look at this

4 report that was prepared by Ms. Najman. It consists of a history that she

5 has taken and the results of a number of tests and then her conclusions

6 drawn on those. Would it not save an immense amount of time if you just

7 tendered the report and allowed her to add anything or you took her

8 through the matters arising out of the Prosecution witness's report you

9 want to, rather than letting her read it out?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I agree, it does sound

11 sensible, but I would have to ask Mr. Vasic because he took care of this

12 subject as I was responsible for the examination of the accused, so if --

13 with your leave, Mr. Vasic will take over from me now.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Certainly. We don't want in any way to limit what

15 you elicit from Ms. Najman, but it seems to me this is not like the

16 statement of a witness telling us what happened many years ago. This is

17 the history she took, which she obviously must have taken notes at the

18 time, it's the report of the tests she applied and her conclusions, and

19 you can ask her to expand upon them or deal with them in any way. It's

20 interesting to listen to a witness giving evidence, but nevertheless, it

21 will save an immense amount of time if we just put the report in and you

22 proceed from there. Do you have any problem with that?

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, none, Your Honour, thank you. The

24 Defence will tender the report marked ID D145 and 145A, and we shall only

25 ask questions regarding some details which it seems to us need further

Page 7969

1 clarification and I do believe that your suggestion is a very good one.

2 Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE HUNT: I do have to ask the Prosecution about it yet. Ms.

4 Uertz-Retzlaff, it seems to be the simplest way of dealing with it, don't

5 you think?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. Then they will be Exhibits D145 and D145A

8 and you can assume we have read them, thank you.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Ms. Najman, would you mind standing while we

11 have you make the solemn declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE HUNT: Please sit down.

17 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Madam. Will you please give us

19 your name.

20 A. Ana Najman.

21 Q. Can you give us the date of your birth and the place.

22 A. 25th March, 1951, Subotica.

23 Q. We have received your expert opinion, so could you please tell us,

24 only briefly, what experience do you have?

25 A. I graduated from the faculty of philosophy, the clinical stream,

Page 7970

1 and I underwent specialisation, three-year long, at the faculty of

2 medicine in Belgrade. And then forensic psychology, family psychology,

3 group psychology were further subspecialisations. And from 1976 onward,

4 that is for about 25 years, is the seniority I have behind me. I worked

5 in a school, then at a social work centre, then in the city hospital for

6 about ten years where I acquired very important forensic experience. And

7 now I work at the clinical psychiatry at the Dragisa Misevic Clinical

8 Medical Centre.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us if you have any publications? Have

10 you published anything?

11 A. Yes. At -- the Yugoslav Forensic Society holds various meetings,

12 and I always submitted reports, either based on my practical experience or

13 in theoretical works. I also attended various psychologists meetings in

14 Serbia and Yugoslavia covering different fields, both theoretical and

15 clinical experience in group psychology and various other related matters.

16 Q. As an expert witness, have you already testified in other cases?

17 A. Yes. I am the expert for Yugoslavia since 1996 -- 1986, and now I

18 testified here in Mr. Dokmanovic's case, Radic's case, Krnojelac's case,

19 and I'm currently involved in the Dosen case.

20 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, on the basis of Mr. Krnojelac's case

21 history, what was -- how was Mr. Krnojelac motivated by his parents when

22 he was still a child as to his future career?

23 A. The principal guidelines given him by his parents, who were rather

24 poor, were to encourage him to receive education, to seek advancement, and

25 try to leave that poor environment. His mother was particularly active in

Page 7971

1 this regard, and his emotional relationship with his mother was also very

2 good.

3 Q. Can you tell us, how long did it take him to become a teacher of

4 mathematics?

5 A. Well, he first completed elementary education, then enrolled in

6 secondary school, then moved over to the teachers college, and after that,

7 he also came out of the higher school for mathematics and physics teachers

8 in Sarajevo. Officially, he came out of the higher school for the

9 teachers of mathematics and physics in 1970, that is, when he was 30.

10 Meanwhile, he also worked so that his education was, in a way, specific.

11 It wasn't a conventional kind of education and there was no continuity;

12 that is, first you finish all your schools and then find a job. He

13 finished a part of this education, started to work, and then went back to

14 further education.

15 Q. Could you deduce from the case history if Milorad Krnojelac has

16 any -- has ever had any conflict with the environment?

17 A. According to him, that is, on the basis of his case history, we

18 learned that he has never been punished, that he has never had any

19 conflict, that he never even got into a fight. This was the information

20 that I received.

21 Q. Thank you. Will you just make a short break -- wait for a little

22 after you hear my question so as to give time for the interpreters to

23 fully interpret both my question and your answer. Thank you.

24 And did you find out when you established the case history what

25 happened to the family and the house of Milorad Krnojelac in 1992, and how

Page 7972

1 did he react to it psychologically?

2 A. The case history showed that on the 15th of April that year, his

3 house burnt down. He had left it a day before that, hastily getting ready

4 and leaving with the rest of his family to his brother's who lived in

5 another village.

6 He mentioned that the house is mostly surrounded by Muslim people,

7 and he did not think that he should leave the house because he did not see

8 the situation leading to anything, so that he left the house and watched

9 from a hill -- watched his house burning from a hill.

10 That was around the 16th of April 1992, and he was visibly

11 shattered. He and his family all cried. And of course, this was a very

12 stressful event, not only for him. It is stressful in general. And it

13 was very hard for him to accept that, to live with it and accept it.

14 Q. Does the same hold true of the situation when his two sons were

15 wounded, one of whom lost both his legs and the other one who had had

16 injuries and lost a part of his leg?

17 A. Of course, if we -- by analogy, by psychologic analogy, of course

18 it is also highly -- high stress. So this incident, the loss of a house,

19 the loss of the home, not house as a building, but of a home, the wounding

20 of the sons, these are very -- very grave things. Illnesses, tragedies,

21 these are highly stressful events, and they're evaluated as events of high

22 stress.

23 Q. Can you tell us how does psychology define stress?

24 A. Stress is a general reaction of the body. It is a set of

25 non-specific reactions of the body to any request for adjustment to some

Page 7973

1 changed conditions in the environment. It is closely related to emotional

2 experience, and the higher the stress, the stronger the emotions. In the

3 international classification of diseases, DSM-III-R and in the latest

4 IC-III-10, the types of these I call social stress factors are classified,

5 and it says that it includes marital; family; psychosocial; legal, meaning

6 arrest, investigation, trial, et cetera; then stress caused by some

7 somatic diseases; injuries; and some either psychosocial stresses such as

8 war, persecution, painful, traumatic events in war and armed conflicts.

9 Q. Thank you, madam. In your expertise on page 5, you said that

10 Mr. Krnojelac does not easily -- has difficulty understanding instructions

11 given him when he's invited to do the test. What instructions do you have

12 in mind?

13 A. When tests are given to the examinees, there is a general rule

14 abided by most psychologists. It's a general rule, and identical for all

15 the examinees. It does not presume any additional explanations or any

16 additional assistance because the rule has been formulated in a manner in

17 which every examinee can understand it. Of course, from the case history

18 of that person, we learn what is the level of education of the examinee,

19 and the tests are then suited to that.

20 When I mentioned these instructions, I meant in the first place

21 that the examinee requested additional explanations and he did not

22 immediately and straight away understand what he was being asked to do,

23 which is not a common phenomenon and below our psychological expectations

24 of someone who is -- who teaches mathematics, who teaches children, and

25 who would, under normal circumstances, always understand such a thing.

Page 7974

1 Q. Thank you. On the same page, you also say that you interrupted

2 that test at a moment because the examinee did not feel well. Could you

3 describe to us what Mr. Krnojelac looked like at the moment when you said

4 that.

5 A. Mr. Krnojelac exerted himself to apply the instructions he had

6 received to the test, but he had difficulty with that, and then he started

7 to feel insecure. He sweated, he was upset, very pale at some point, and

8 said that he was feeling weak. I think we offered some water with sugar

9 to him, and he appeared as a person who was emotionally very disturbed and

10 in a specific state. I wouldn't call -- I wouldn't attach to it any

11 specific diagnostic name, but from the point of view of his behaviour and

12 what he looked like, that is how I would describe it. And then I decided

13 to interrupt the test and do it the next day.

14 After that, he pulled his wits about and we did something else,

15 and when we did that, he did not show the symptoms so that we went back to

16 this task the next day.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you briefly analyse Mr. Krnojelac's intellectual

18 abilities.

19 A. Well, as I have already said, the result -- the results of that

20 test were not brilliant. He was at the level of a poorer average during

21 that test. It is a test intending -- intended to examine the logical

22 reasoning, and we call it culture-free test because it has nothing to do

23 with one's level of education and other cultural factors. Another test

24 that I gave him was a test to measure general abilities, and there, the

25 result was even lower. Of course, I say, because when solving these

Page 7975

1 tests, the examinees - not Mr. Krnojelac alone but any examinee - has a

2 momentary feedback about whether he has resolved it well or not. That is,

3 he already has an impression of what he is relatively good at and how good

4 he is at something. The more difficult he found to solve the tasks and

5 the more trouble he had with solving them, he -- the more he became

6 insecure, the more he became upset, and it resulted in a heightened

7 anxiety, which then affected, in its turn, the result, and so the result

8 was below what we expected of a teacher of mathematics.

9 So that I can say that what was -- what -- the manifestations of

10 his intellectual abilities, as we would call it in psychology, did not go

11 above the lower average. And that, of course, is different from the level

12 of the primary intellectual potential.

13 Perhaps I should clarify it a little because, in this finding, I

14 use the -- these notions, the active level of the intellectual functioning

15 and the primary intellectual potential. The primary intellectual

16 potential is something that one is possessed of. That is, I won't say

17 that he is born with it, but that is one's ability that one develops over

18 time. And the active potential can be disrupted in different situations

19 by different factors. One of them is this one that I've told you about,

20 not to repeat myself, that is insecurity, anxiety and so on and so forth.

21 Q. Thank you. You have explained to us the level of Mr. Krnojelac's

22 intellectual ability. Could you then tell us, explain to us or define to

23 us his way of thinking?

24 A. Of course, on the level of the intellectual potential and

25 abilities also presumes the level of thinking. Roughly speaking, we could

Page 7976












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Page 7977

1 divide it into the concrete and the abstract level.

2 I can say that the level of abstract thinking is practically

3 absent or barely present. It is very difficult to register it. But the

4 concrete level of thinking prevailed, and this was particularly obvious

5 during Raven's test which observes the ability to discriminate between the

6 important and unimportant, understanding of certain global features, and

7 it showed a certain mental rigidity and, up to a point, marked

8 psycho-motor slowness, torpidity.

9 This perhaps could be due, as I have already said, to the

10 examinee's behaviour under the circumstances and the personality factors

11 which came into play, and the second part should be attributed to a

12 somehow lower intellectual capacity in general.

13 Q. Thank you. In your finding when you described Mr. Krnojelac's

14 personality, you used terms such as somatisation, hypersensitivity,

15 combined with characteristics of passive structures of a personality, and

16 you said that these were the principal characteristics of this category of

17 examinees. Could you tell us, on the basis of what did you draw such

18 conclusions?

19 A. Outside from the psychological interview on the basis of which we

20 establish a diagnosis of patients and therefore an evaluation of the

21 personality, also applied some personality tests, and I used the

22 projective test and the MMPI test. The MMPI test or a personality

23 inventory, which describes the current profile of the examinee's

24 personality, were predominated by hypochondriac tendencies and very highly

25 on the scale, then suppression and denial and anxiety. And all this was

Page 7978

1 accompanied by a mild subdepression symptoms, I would say, rather than

2 depression symptoms.

3 In psychology, such a personality profile is usually described

4 with these words that I used them, that is, hypersensitivity, and a

5 passivity is something that prevails in his personality structure.

6 Q. Can you tell me, in view of the tests that you applied, that you

7 have just told us about, could you also point out to us some other

8 characteristics which might be relevant with reference to Mr. Krnojelac's

9 personality?

10 A. Of course. The examinee appeared as a very sociable, extrovert

11 personality, a very cooperative one, ready to draw attention in one way or

12 the other, but this is something that had also to do with the work with

13 the tests and his behaviour.

14 Q. You mentioned the characteristics Mr. Krnojelac showed during the

15 tests. Can you tell me if during the tests, if in these tests, the

16 examinee perhaps could present himself in a more desirable light than is

17 actually the case?

18 A. Of course, these tests, and by this I mean MMPI especially and

19 Pluchick's test and Elizur's questionnaire, and they all have scale which

20 is called a life scale in MMPI and Pluchick, and these are scales used to

21 measure the manner in which the examinee presents. Not the lack of -- not

22 the truthfulness but the way in which he understands the test, the way in

23 which he solves it, and thus in which he gives manifestation of some of

24 his traits.

25 The L scale, the so-called lie scale, and these scales were at a

Page 7979

1 level which enabled us to accept the results and thereby approve the

2 validity of the test results, which means that at the moment, that while

3 the examinee saw these tests, the examinee did not try to present himself

4 in a more desirable, in a more socially-acceptable light.

5 When these scales are very high, perhaps I should mention this, we

6 do not think that the examinee is lying in the specific meaning of this

7 word, but that he merely tries to conceal some of his traits that he deems

8 not to be particularly favourable or that are unfavourable.

9 Q. But this was not the case at that time of Mr. Krnojelac's

10 examination?

11 A. That is quite right. I did point that out.

12 Q. Tell me, the tests that you mentioned, did Mr. Krnojelac -- is

13 perhaps any aggressiveness a marked trait of Mr. Krnojelac or, perhaps,

14 lack of control? Is he a very impulsive man?

15 A. No, and I believe I did refer to this somewhere in my finding.

16 Neither the impulsiveness or aggressiveness were marked, either in the PIE

17 or Pluchick the Rorschach, which is the relevant scale for subconscious

18 mechanisms.

19 The profile -- had it not been so, the profile we got would be

20 somewhat different because in that case, the scales of psychosomatic

21 deviations or abnormality would be higher. On the MMPI, for instance,

22 that was something that would have been manifest, obvious, straight away.

23 Q. Thank you, Ms. Najman. You summed up the intellectual capacities

24 of Milorad Krnojelac, and taking into account the level of his

25 intellectual ability and his occasional anxiety and fits of psychological

Page 7980

1 weakness, how did he behave while he was working in the school as a

2 teacher?

3 A. You see, I can point out that I myself have some modest experience

4 of work in the school environment. I can say that any teacher gets

5 certain curriculum and prepares for it. These preparations is something

6 that they have always ready, and it serves as a basis for their lectures

7 and also serves the basis for an assessment to see whether the, the

8 curriculum was duly covered.

9 In other words, what I'm saying is that this is a well-known

10 situation, and Mr. Krnojelac was part -- well aware of this system,

11 familiar with it. In other words, he was able to prepare, and this gives

12 him self-assurance, this gives him confidence, and this was probably

13 transferred to his students.

14 The situation of his examination, if I can call it that, in other

15 words, measurements of his own intellectual capabilities, is, and this is

16 something that has come on to every person, it is something that is

17 frustrating for everyone to a lesser or greater degree. It is a situation

18 that really deviates from the standard or standarised or strictly

19 controlled situation such as we have in school when he is preparing for a

20 lecture, for instance.

21 Q. Thank you. Can you then tell us, please, taking all this into

22 account, how did Mr. Krnojelac behave in situations that were completely

23 new and unknown to him?

24 A. Of course, new situations mobilised some other mechanisms in him

25 such as insecurity, lack of self-confidence, passivity, and that produced

Page 7981

1 an increased amount of anxiety, his willingness to put off or delay such

2 situations or to be ambivalent, as the technical term would say, and if in

3 situations when he is not fully able to control the situation, he gets out

4 of it and asks -- and directs people or himself to not participate in it

5 any longer. These are also characteristics of a -- of the passive

6 personality, which is what I pointed out in my finding. This is one of

7 those characteristics. And it also manifested in Mr. Krnojelac.

8 Q. Thank you. So what was the behaviour of Mr. Krnojelac in the

9 situation of receiving orders?

10 A. In a situation of receiving orders, of course, again, the

11 characteristic of the passive personality structure reappears, and it is

12 something that is characteristic of him. He upsets it in a passive way.

13 He does not find the strength to resist them. In his own way, he is

14 obedient to the authority that has given him such orders but taking to --

15 taking into account the level of his intellectual operating and his

16 passive personality, he does not undertake a deep and wide analysis of the

17 possible consequences of such an order. If we go back to what I have

18 previously said about the characteristics of his way of thinking, I think

19 that this clarifies that point now, because he does not demonstrate such

20 curiosity, a spirit of examination and analysis, because he does not show

21 such a primary characteristic.

22 Q. Taking that into account, what is his attitude towards work in

23 situations like this?

24 A. In regard to the work-type situations, Mr. Krnojelac behaves in a

25 hyperactive way, if we can put it that way. He is very engaged, he is

Page 7982

1 industrious, and it is -- he seems to be compelled by it, by some kind of

2 inner mechanism of his. We can point to the defence mechanisms that

3 guided his behaviour, which imply different ways in which sound parts of

4 personality defend themselves in situations when they are threatened

5 either from inside or outside and the threat is such that it threatens the

6 very balance or homeostasis of personality. On the basis of tests which I

7 applied to Mr. Krnojelac - and this is what I pointed out - these were the

8 dominant mechanisms. It was suppression and denial. It is a primary

9 mechanism for this type of personality, which is demonstrated in

10 situations when he cannot control or rule over such situations,

11 psychologically speaking. They are not a conscious part of personality.

12 They are dictated by unconscious impulses, and it's not a rational type of

13 defence, that is the suppression or isolation of affects or denial. It is

14 an unconscious mechanism which is triggered off when the sound part of

15 personality feels that their strength is disappearing and when they cannot

16 control situations which come either from within or without. It can be a

17 traumatic event, something that can be encountered in difficult or

18 catastrophic situations. It would have to do with death or pain and

19 situations like that. So this type of personality resorts to this in

20 order to retain some kind of sanity in their personality.

21 Q. Thank you, madam. You told us how Mr. Krnojelac behaved in new

22 circumstances, in situations that -- in which he was not used, and in

23 situations where he was receiving orders. Can you now turn to the

24 characteristics of his personality in situations when he is brought into a

25 situation to do something which he had never done before and taking into

Page 7983

1 account that was a wartime situation on top of that?

2 A. You see, I believe that in points 3 and 4 of the summary addresses

3 this issue, and I can repeat now that the level of functioning of

4 personality is something that is characteristic for a person throughout

5 their lives. It is a style of behaviour. It is a type of behaviour that

6 stretches for the length of their lives. Of course, stress situations

7 coming from within or without, wartime, disasters, it is something that is

8 -- anything that is above normal and usual only exacerbates what I have

9 just mentioned, in terms of the functioning of personality. That would

10 mean that such a person in these situations is even more anxious, even

11 more insecure, and attempts to follow orders and reach decisions that are

12 expected of it, because there is a trait of obedience and conformity,

13 which I think I may not have mentioned but it is in the finding, and a

14 desire to please some of the authorities. But also he is not able to

15 process all this emotionally, and at the moment when the level of

16 suffering reaches a point where the person is not able to emotionally or

17 cognitively process it, such a person retreats, becomes passive and very

18 frequently just leaves this situation.

19 Q. Thank you, Madam Najman. Can you tell me, madam, did you have an

20 opportunity to look at the finding of Madam Folnegovic and do you have it

21 on you?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Would you please look at that opinion of Madam Folnegovic-Smalc

24 and to tell me whether you agree with this opinion? Does it correspond to

25 what you have found in your own finding?

Page 7984

1 A. I very carefully read the opinion, and I think that our

2 descriptions and our conclusions, if not identical, are still very, very

3 close. For instance, on page 11 of the opinion, Madam Folnegovic-Smalc

4 said that Mr. Krnojelac, according to two classifications, does not have

5 any mental disturbance and that he had no traces of any organically-based

6 or any other mental disease, with which I agree fully.

7 Also, the tests have -- the way I understood the finding of the

8 psychiatric examination showed, on both the qualitative and quantitative

9 basis, she reached the conclusion that he had no mental disturbance.

10 Q. Madam Najman, thank you. Can you please tell me, in Madam

11 Folnegovic's opinion it says neurotic and panic traits that you pointed

12 out in your expertise, that she considers them models of behaviour. Are

13 you -- do you agree with that position?

14 A. I think that Madam Folnegovic asked the same question, but the way

15 I understood your question is as follows: I described the structure of

16 personality of the tested person, the level of his intellectual

17 functioning, and I understood this model of behaviour to be that it

18 applies to the level of functioning, and I think that what I have

19 mentioned in my opinion, and which relates to the occasional anxiety and

20 panic attacks, is not something that should be qualified as a psychiatric

21 case, nor treated as a psychiatric -- if I fail to understand that, I

22 think we can sit together and try to find an agreement, but perhaps this

23 is a good moment to point out that it is a psychologist that is the right

24 person to measure the level of functioning, that is, how a person defends

25 himself, how it solves uncomfortable, difficult situations.

Page 7985












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7986

1 I did the best I could in the environment that I could, but I

2 don't think that it ever rises to the level of being a mental disease, and

3 I think this is how I understood my colleague's position.

4 Q. I know that it is -- you're not comfortable with trying to

5 second-guess Madam Folnegovic's own analysis. I think it is better that

6 -- if she is asked herself. However, I just wanted to expedite matters

7 and jump a little bit ahead. So I only have one more question of you.

8 On page 12 of Madam Folnegovic's opinion, in paragraph 2, it

9 states that Mr. Krnojelac was likely -- that he uses the mechanisms of

10 denial and suppression after having first complied with the orders of his

11 superiors. Does that strike you as something that is a rational type of

12 behaviour? Am I right in reading it that way?

13 A. Again, I believe that Dr. Folnegovic is a better person to ask --

14 answer that, but as I'm the first person who is giving evidence here, and

15 I can only give you my perception and my view of it.

16 Conditionally, this is perhaps just an awkward way of putting it,

17 and this is not an objection really. And I think that Dr. Folnegovic will

18 also agree with a commonly-known fact in psychology that defence

19 mechanisms develop as the person develops. It is not something that is

20 found in the, in the person beforehand. It is not something that is part

21 of a rational mechanism, so it may have just been that this sentence was

22 structured in such a way that it left you with this impression.

23 But I believe that the denial and repression is something that is

24 happened -- has happened with our patient. And also, the isolation of

25 affects in situations when he cannot control the situation, this is what

Page 7987

1 is triggered off in order to restore the balance in his personality and

2 his previous functioning. This is, at least, how I understand it.

3 However, I do allow that Madam Folnegovic may add something else to it.

4 Q. Thank you, Madam Najman.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has no more questions in

6 the examination-in-chief.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

10 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Najman.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. Ms. Najman, you mentioned that you testified -- you mentioned that

13 you testified in the case against Mladjo Radic. You actually testified in

14 March of this year, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mr. Radic is a Serb indicted for having participated as shift

17 commander in the mistreatment of Muslim detainees in the Omarska camp,

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I do not want to dispute or challenge any of your findings in

21 relation to Mr. Radic; it's not, it's not our case here. However, I want

22 to discuss a few similarities between your findings there and in this case

23 here. If you need the findings of Mr. Radic, we have it here.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I do not want to enter them into

25 evidence; therefore, I did not provide a submission like this. I just

Page 7988

1 want to discuss a few sentences of this expertise.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I don't want to stop you, but I'm

3 curious to know just how this gets us anywhere. Let's assume that she

4 says exactly the same as to Mr. Radic. What does that have to do with us

5 here?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I want to stress a few points in relation to

7 increased anxiety and this increased receptiveness to orders.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Do we need to know very much about what Mr. Radic did

9 or is alleged to have done?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We're not going into any of these

11 difficult -- in any of these details. I just want to read two, three

12 sentences from this expertise to show that it's actually the same

13 findings.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, on the basis of that rather alluring promise to

15 be brief, you proceed.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I have here for you.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies. The

18 Defence is a bit concerned because we don't know where this is going. The

19 expert chosen by the Prosecutor found -- came to the same findings, so I

20 don't know what this finding is to show. It is from another case.

21 JUDGE HUNT: But Mr. Vasic, that is one of the great mysteries and

22 sometimes the enjoyment of a cross-examination. Neither you nor the

23 witness know where it's headed. I think the Trial Chamber has to accept

24 from counsel with the experience of Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff that she can't take

25 it too far.

Page 7989


2 JUDGE HUNT: I, myself, have queried it, but I think let's see

3 where she goes. If we see that she's going right off the rails, which

4 would be unexpected, then you may renew your objection.


6 Q. Ms. Najman, I have here your expertise in the B/C/S language, and

7 I just want to cite a very few sentences.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you said you have her

9 expertise. You mean her expert report or the statement of her

10 qualifications?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. The written expertise dated the 7th of

12 May, 2000, in the case for Mladjo Radic. That is her findings on -- her

13 written findings on Mr. Mladjo Radic.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, please, here is

16 the B/C/S version.

17 Q. In your finding, you also have the chapter "Description of

18 Personality." Can you please look at --

19 A. What page?

20 Q. In the English version, it's page 5, and in the B/C/S version --

21 A. Yes, it's page 6.

22 Q. You, in the third paragraph, the last sentence, you mention,

23 "There is increased insecurity, anxiety, and distrust towards new

24 situations and persons." Do you see that, the third paragraph?

25 A. Third paragraph?

Page 7990

1 Q. Yes. After your definitions of symbols, there is the next

2 paragraph, and the last sentence is what I just read out to you, right?

3 A. Yes, I see the increased insecurity.

4 Q. And in the next paragraph, actually, you write, "This personality

5 is characterised by the following traits: loyalty, modesty, passivity,

6 servility, sensitivity, and a high degree of conformism."

7 In paragraph 6 of this same chapter, you write, "The dimensions of

8 obedience, gullibility, dependence, and suggestibility are pronounced."

9 Do you see that?

10 A. Yes, I do. Thank you.

11 Q. And actually, as the last, as the last paragraph of your findings,

12 you highlight, "The conformity and acceptance as his social conduct,

13 behavioural motive which emerges from the need to behave like others and

14 as they expect one to behave." Do you see that? It's shortly after this

15 two separate little dashes with sentences after, then there comes it.

16 A. Oh, yes, I see it, yes.

17 Q. So these are --

18 A. It sounds very different in English than in Serbo-Croatian, so

19 have had some difficulty finding it, but I did find it.

20 Q. Yes, thank you. So these were, what I just read to you, these

21 were your findings in your relation to Mr. Radic, right?

22 Now we come to your evaluation of Mr. Krnojelac. In chapter 3,

23 from recollection, it's on page 3, you mentioned the wounding of the son,

24 the sons of Mr. Krnojelac - it's actually paragraph 3 of this - and you

25 say, "Their wounding was emotionally difficult and hard for him to

Page 7991

1 accept."

2 A. Yes, emotionally, yes. It was difficult for him.

3 Q. Was he not sad about it, and at the same time, accepted it as

4 consequence of the war? Do you recall what he actually said?

5 A. I think if we have the same thing in mind, I think he said, "Well,

6 that's the war." That is the sentence that he repeated often, if that is

7 what you mean.

8 But I don't know, perhaps I can have a look, because here I have

9 the originals from Mr. Krnojelac's case history and perhaps I can find his

10 exact words if I misquoted him, if that was what you had in mind. Or

11 could you perhaps help me?

12 Q. Yes. I think you do not need to search that in your notes

13 because, actually, in the expertise of Mrs. Folnegovic, you find that she

14 actually cites him saying, "That is the war." The wounding of the son,

15 "That's the war," which is what you yourself remembered now. And

16 Mrs. Folnegovic, in her expertise, also mentioned that he said, "I would

17 give everything for the war not to have happened but when it did, there is

18 no other way than to accept it." Do you recall him saying that or kind of

19 something like this?

20 A. Of course, yes, because we were together throughout the

21 examination, so of course I heard that too.

22 Q. And also Mrs. Folnegovic gave in her expertise the -- in her

23 written expertise, the sentence in relation how he thinks about the war,

24 "May it be in the home of the one who wants it but when it comes -- when

25 it does come, it should be accepted. War has its own, and that's how it

Page 7992

1 is." Do you also recall this?

2 A. I do, yes, I remember it.

3 Q. A man who says something like this would join the war effort when

4 he is asked to do so, right? He would accept it because it's how it is,

5 right?

6 A. Well, perhaps. Perhaps he would come to the terms with the fact

7 and say, "Well, the war has happened and we all have to suffer it." There

8 is also that kind of reaction.

9 Q. Not only suffer it but participate if you are asked to do that.

10 Isn't that his position?

11 A. Well, I do not mean -- I mean to tolerate it. When I say "to

12 suffer it," I mean to tolerate it. "We are in that situation, there is

13 this war, you cannot change anything, and you have to put up with it."

14 That is what I meant.

15 Q. And Mr. Krnojelac actually, when you look at what he told you

16 about himself during the war, he actually did participate. When he was

17 called up, he went immediately to the high school and, yeah, took his

18 duty, right?

19 A. Yes, he assumed that duty requested of him, in view of the duties

20 that he -- obligations that he had, not as an active-duty military, as far

21 as I can understand from what he told me, but it was an obligation which

22 he understood as a labour duty. That is, I think, how it was.

23 Q. A person with Mr. Krnojelac's personality would actually feel the

24 duty to help his people and to do what he is tasked with, right? He has

25 such a personality?

Page 7993

1 A. Well, I did mention it today, I believe, and I think you will find

2 it in the finding, he has those characteristics of a passive personality

3 and characteristics of a person who obeys, who will bend to authority, up

4 to a certain level. When he cannot cope with it any longer - and I

5 believe I explained it today - when he cannot cope with it, then he starts

6 to procrastinate, to hesitate, he is increasingly passive and often simply

7 withdraws from such situations. It seems to me -- it's just occurred to

8 me as we are talking about this, I think he even said that at some point

9 he also asked to be relieved of this obligation, of this labour duty, and

10 that is how I understand it, psychologically, I mean.

11 Q. Mrs. Folnegovic also mentioned in her written expertise that the

12 accused, in relation to the military part of the KP Dom, said, and here I

13 quote from page 9 of the English version, "He did not care about what was

14 happening in the other part of the KP Dom, that nobody informed him about"

15 -- there is some problem.

16 [Technical difficulty]

17 JUDGE HUNT: We have a picture but no transcript.

18 THE WITNESS: [English] We have no picture again.

19 JUDGE HUNT: We seem to have both. You proceed.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. But I think I'll read this part again.

21 Q. In relation to the military part of the KP Dom, Mrs. Folnegovic

22 wrote, "He did not care about what was happening in the other part of the

23 KP Dom, that nobody informed him about any beatings or torture, and that

24 he did not ask anybody," and she further cited him as, "I was" --

25 JUDGE HUNT: One moment. There are a lot of problems. I can see

Page 7994

1 the interpreters are having troubles too.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Was I too fast?

3 JUDGE HUNT: No, just no sound.

4 THE WITNESS: [English] And no translation.

5 THE REGISTRAR: And no translation for the witness.

6 THE WITNESS: [English] Yes.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can I start?

8 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three?


10 Q. "He did not care about what was happening" --

11 THE WITNESS: [English] No.

12 JUDGE HUNT: This may succeed in allowing us to get out of this

13 shoebox into another courtroom.


15 Q. I think our microphones were turned on.

16 A. Yes, yes, now I do hear it.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, all three booths can hear you. Let's go.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Now I read it.

19 Q. "He did not care about what was happening in the other part of the

20 KP Dom, that nobody informed him about any beatings or torture, and that

21 he did not ask anybody." And he is further cited as follows: "I was

22 uninformed about everything and it was not up to me to get involved in it

23 and worry about it. I did my job, they did theirs, that is what war is

24 like." Do you recall him saying that?

25 A. I do, yes, yes, absolutely.

Page 7995












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7996

1 Q. So would you say that this attitude is rather the attitude of a

2 narrow-minded person?

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I followed it well,

4 because of the technical problems, what my learned friend has read out to

5 Mrs. Najman and the quotation and the question, I think that there are

6 several sentences missing here as this quotation -- as this text was read

7 out. I stand to be corrected but I don't think I'm wrong. I think that

8 the quotation --

9 JUDGE HUNT: She may not have read every word but every word she

10 read out is in the report and that's the -- the cross-examiner is entitled

11 to say, "These particular statements, do they indicate something?" If you

12 want to, in re-examination, and you think there is something else in the

13 report which would be relevant, you can ask the witness whether the other

14 material would change her mind.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, thank you. But

16 I -- it seems to me that the meaning is thereby slightly altered. That is

17 why I objected, because if the accused -- the words of the accused are

18 quoted, then I think it would be fair to quote all of it.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Only if it alters the context. I haven't checked it

20 word for word.

21 But Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, rather than leaving it open to get a

22 different answer in re-examination, read -- there is only one paragraph

23 there.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, it's a longer one. And I just picked

25 out a few sentences from this.

Page 7997

1 JUDGE HUNT: The trouble is, when you read, everything goes wrong.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Today, at least today. So I read the entire

3 paragraph.

4 Q. "He says that he had nothing to do with the military part. 'I did

5 not have the time nor the possibility to find out about certain things. I

6 worked between seven and 15 hours a day, practically without a break.' He

7 says that he did not care about what was happening in the other part of

8 the Dom, that nobody informed him --"

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel read a little bit slower so

10 the interpreters can catch up?


12 Q. "... that nobody informed him about any beatings or torture and

13 that he did not ask anybody. Only later did he hear some things, but

14 while he worked there he knew nothing about any of this. 'I was

15 uninformed about everything and I was not up -- it was not up to me to get

16 involved in it and worry about it. I did my job, they did theirs. What

17 is -- that is what war is like. The army and the military command took

18 care of those who were detained, not I.'" It continues but is that

19 enough? Do you recall that?

20 A. Yes, I've found it. I've found it, yes.

21 Q. And my additional question was: This attitude expressed by the

22 accused speaks for a rather narrow-minded personality, right? Wouldn't

23 you say, though, the person says that, "it's not my thing to worry about

24 it"?

25 JUDGE HUNT: I think, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the problem is your

Page 7998












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7999

1 expression "narrow-minded personality." That bears one meaning. Do you

2 mean narrowly-focused personality?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, completely focused on his -- what he is

4 doing and not caring about anything else.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, from a purely English point of view, that makes

6 better sense to me, but it may be different for the psychiatrists and the

7 psychologists, and it may even be different between the two of them, but

8 try that one and see how you go.


10 Q. Would you agree to this? That he is completely focused on himself

11 and what he is doing and ignores ...

12 A. Well, you see, now that you read this passage, it sounds slightly

13 differently now that you read it out and I listen to it than when I wrote

14 it down.

15 I cannot escape from the fact that I'm a psychologist, as Your

16 Honours have said, and I look at him and a personality in toto. So I

17 wouldn't say that he is a narrow-minded man or a man who is focused on

18 himself. I think it has to do with his intellectual abilities, and I

19 spoke about it. I mentioned it. Perhaps I didn't emphasise it enough,

20 but he lacks curiosity, he lacks exploring spirit. He does not wish to

21 know new things, and that derives from his primary, general, intellectual

22 potential. And at least I as a psychologist would attribute it rather to

23 that than an attitude. An attitude is something else. At this point in

24 time, that is what it looks like to me, but ...

25 Q. In paragraph 5 of your expertise in relation to -- from

Page 8000

1 recollection, chapter from recollection, you mentioned that the accused

2 continued his professional education to become a subject teacher, although

3 it was not his wish -- did you find it? Do you remember? It's on page 3

4 on the bottom. Yes? Do you remember that he said that it was not his

5 wish actually to do that, but he accepted it and fulfilled it then,

6 right? Also, it was not his wish. He accepted it and fulfilled his

7 education as suggested, right?

8 A. You see, now perhaps I could interpret what Mr. Krnojelac told us

9 and what it sounded like to me as a psychologist. He came out of the

10 teachers academy, and he taught children. He liked mathematics or,

11 rather, calculus, as he liked to say, and the opportunity arose to receive

12 further education and thus acquired the formal education in mathematics,

13 and so he seized that opportunity.

14 So he did not choose, did not go to attend a higher school by

15 taking a decision because the -- his family lived in very poor material

16 conditions, in very dire straits. He was already married, if I'm right,

17 had one or two children, and he simply could not afford to enjoy

18 university and stop working. That is how I interpreted it. And I do not

19 think it is the result of the absence of a wish or will to do it but just

20 due to these circumstances which were such as they were.

21 Q. You mentioned in paragraph 5 of your chapter of recollection, you

22 mentioned, actually, although it was not his wish, he did that. So it has

23 something to do with his wishes. He didn't have the wish; that's what you

24 gave here.

25 A. Yes. But you know, I thought I had explained it. It's not that

Page 8001

1 he had no wish, it was simply very difficult circumstances of his life.

2 He had to take care of his family, of providing for them rather than about

3 what he wanted to do or didn't want to do. It's not that there was no

4 wish.

5 Perhaps I'm not being clear enough, but at least that is how I

6 understood it, and I think that if Mrs. Folnegovic was present there, she

7 can tell us also how she understood that. That is how I understood it.

8 Q. Mrs. Folnegovic actually gave in her report to other similar

9 situations, and I want to put them to you. Mrs. Folnegovic wrote that in

10 1973, he became a member of the communist party by decree. Do you

11 remember that?

12 A. I do, yes.

13 Q. And also she wrote that, again by decree, he was transferred to

14 the Veselin Maslesa school. So again, that it is not his decision.

15 Someone else makes the decision, and he does it. Accepts it and does it.

16 Is that, is that not the typical conformist behaviour?

17 JUDGE HUNT: Both reports described it as being conformist. I

18 don't know what this is leading to. There's no dispute between them at

19 all.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I want to come to the point --

21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, let's get to the point, please.


23 Q. You mentioned in your -- today, you mentioned -- today you

24 mentioned that he did not have the typical advancement and educational and

25 professional development. It was kind of extraordinary. Was it faster

Page 8002

1 than usual?

2 A. No, no, no. I do not think that it was faster. He completed his

3 schooling in 1973 when he was about 30.

4 Q. You said it was not the usual way to do it. He at the same time

5 had his job, education, but already worked in the job. How is that to

6 explain?

7 A. Perhaps the term "unusual" may not be the best expression, but I

8 can explain what I meant. Somebody goes to the school, finishes school,

9 finds a job and starts working.

10 In Mr. Krnojelac's case, it was -- there were both things, but the

11 sequence was not followed. That's what I meant. Common or not common,

12 that is simply my impression.

13 Q. You noticed that he had this increased anxiety and fear, and you

14 also described why he had this in the test situation. A lot of persons

15 would react in such situations in a similar way, right? It's not unusual

16 what he experienced and what you saw on him.

17 A. Well, that's what I said. I think I said it today, that testing

18 one's intelligence or testing the intellectual abilities of somebody is

19 always frustrating, more or less, and I think that Mr. Krnojelac was

20 slightly more frustrated, that is that anxiety was higher, and I confirm

21 it by the fact that the test -- that I interrupted this testing and we

22 came back to it the next day and we gave him some water and sugar and

23 that, but now that we are drawing comparisons with Mr. Radic, for

24 instance, that never happened there. The testing went all right from

25 beginning to end. That is, there were no interruptions due to some such

Page 8003

1 things as we are talking about now.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I hope it's not a sign of either anxiety or

3 frustration, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, but how much longer is this

4 cross-examination going to go on, bearing in mind that the findings of

5 both of the experts are almost identical?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: They differ in one rather particular point.

7 JUDGE HUNT: When are we going to get to that?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I have to build, I have to come to this, but

9 it will be 20 more minutes.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, dear. Well, we can't resume until 11.30 tomorrow

11 because we have a number of other matters listed already which we could

12 not defer so we will resume again tomorrow morning at 11.30.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

14 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday the 29th day

15 of June, 2001, at 11.30 a.m.