Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8004

1 Friday, 29 June 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 11.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is case number IT-97-25-T,

8 the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Unfortunately Judge Mumba is unable to be here until

10 after lunch due to personal reasons, and we are proceeding in accordance

11 with Rule 15(B) in her absence. There is another matter I want to raise.

12 Next Monday we had scheduled a Status Conference in another case because

13 we were told it was the only date that was available to all counsel and it

14 was important to hold it. Unfortunately, that agreement has fallen apart,

15 so the Status Conference will not be proceeding next Monday and we will

16 start at 9.30 in the usual way.

17 The next thing, on Tuesday, the Tribunal's building will be

18 completely closed to the public because of another event which is taking

19 place which requires somewhat stringent security arrangements. I did

20 protest that no members of the public were allowed in here anyway, but I

21 was unsuccessful. So that if we are still proceeding, I'm afraid Tuesday

22 is a no day, and we will resume again on Wednesday. Hopefully we will

23 finish everything at least by Monday.

24 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you were cross-examining.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

Page 8005


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

4 Q. Good morning, Ms. Najman.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. Can you hear me?

7 A. Yes, I can.

8 Q. Ms. Najman, during your examination, you did not access materials

9 such as witness statements that described the accused's behaviour during

10 the events, right? You didn't have that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And you also did not question family members or family friends

13 about his behaviour during the events, did you?

14 A. No, I never saw anyone either.

15 Q. And you did not observe him during trial, correct?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So you only observed him during detention in this test situation

18 that he did not like, as you have described?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. However, in the section, psychological analysis and

21 interpretation, you come to quite general conclusions. For instance, on

22 page 11, paragraph 1, you write, "Overpowering fear, various symptoms of

23 vegetative manifestations dominate in almost each new situation determined

24 and controlled by others," and also during your testimony, you always

25 stressed that in almost each new situation, he would feel this increased

Page 8006

1 anxiety and would have -- most likely his global assessment of the

2 situation would be influenced by this. Psychologists like you describe

3 probabilities and possibilities, right?

4 A. For the most part, yes, but I think that I also included here

5 another thing, which is from the case history, information of

6 Mr. Krnojelac. This is what I got. I may not be fully accurate, but

7 apparently he also suffered weakness during an appearance in court. He

8 had similar symptoms. And he actually made that comparison himself by

9 pointing to the situation in which he found himself. So I had that

10 information too to go on. I did not -- I was not present but I received

11 this information from him. Also, neurovegitative reactions - and Madam

12 Folnegovic is also here; she can also speak -- address that issue - this

13 is something that you do not do on a conscious level. It is dictated by

14 other aspects of your personality. So as a psychologist with about 15

15 years' experience in forensics, this is something -- fairly good

16 indication of what is going on. Also, in other tests, especially the MPI

17 tests, I'm not going to repeat myself on that, but he did show quite a

18 high level of anxiety. And another thing, something that I had implicitly

19 in mind here, is also what I then put in my report, having that in mind.

20 Q. However, in fact, you cannot be sure about his emotional state and

21 his behaviour during the events. You cannot be sure. You don't know.

22 A. We draw our conclusions indirectly. We take into account the

23 personality of the subject and our own exploration, our own methods and

24 also his own case history, things that he says, and my forensic

25 assumptions; that is, how such a personality might behave in similar

Page 8007

1 situations.

2 Q. But my question was actually very simple. You can't be sure, and

3 the answer is yes, you can't be sure how he actually was in 1992 during

4 that time when I was appointed warden and during the time -- the one year

5 that he acted as warden. You cannot be sure.

6 A. No, not in that way. Certainly not.

7 Q. Let's assume that he actually felt fear, overpowering fear, as you

8 say, and he felt increased anxiety when he was made the prison warden.

9 However, after a period in this function, his anxiety and fear would

10 disappear, right?

11 A. You see, it seems to me that this is a fairly simplified

12 assumption. Again, let us assume that this is a situation that is not

13 fully controlled. The situation that you mentioned, an appointment to the

14 position of warden of this institution, is a situation that implies

15 changes, new situations, new contacts, and so on. It is something that is

16 unpredictable. In other words, it is not something that is very

17 controlled.

18 Q. Usually, Ms. Najman, overpowering fear and increased anxiety

19 disappears in 10 to 15 minutes. Isn't that the fact?

20 A. It is a fact that relates to an experience of fear, and when the

21 imaginary or real threat or danger disappears, that is when the fear

22 disappears. And this is how fear is described in all these various

23 classifications, how it arises and how it disappears.

24 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac is actually, in the English

25 version, page 8, you mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac's personality structure

Page 8008

1 belongs to the neurotic type, with prevailing anxiety features combined

2 with passive personality traits, repression and denial as the dominant

3 defence mechanism, and you remember that.

4 Repression and denial are normal defence mechanisms that all of us

5 use occasionally, right? There's nothing abnormal about that.

6 A. Correct. To a larger or lesser degree.

7 Q. Therefore, I do not really understand your criticism of the

8 sentence in Mrs. Folnegovic-Smalc's report that you had discussed with

9 Defence counsel. That's the following sentence: "He tends to obey orders

10 from superior authorities."

11 It's actually page 9, second paragraph of Mrs. Folnegovic's

12 report. That's the sentence that you discussed yesterday and that you

13 criticised.

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have received in

15 translation it's page 9, paragraph 2, whereas we have it on page 12,

16 paragraph 2 in our version.

17 JUDGE HUNT: It may be different in the different typing.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The English version is a lot shorter.

19 So would you please look at 12.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.


22 Q. And the sentence that you actually criticised in a way was the

23 following: "He tends to obey orders from superior authorities."

24 That's what you yourself say, right?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 8009

1 Q. "He understands the order, fully tests and processes it

2 intellectually and emotionally, carries it out, and then uses the defence

3 mechanisms denial and suppression."

4 Do you dispute that he understood what he was ordered to do? Do

5 you not agree to this, that he understood what he was asked to do?

6 A. You see, I think that yesterday we talked more -- we focused more

7 on the other part of the sentence. I think that this is what was the gist

8 of the question of Mr. Vasic, and I think that my comment was more to the

9 latter part of the sentence, which means that I am in full agreement with

10 the former part of the sentence. And I just talked about the -- the way

11 the sentence was structured, with semicolon, and then denial and

12 suppression. This was the question that I commented on, but Madam

13 Folnegovic can give her own comment and agree or disagree with what I said

14 yesterday.

15 In principle though, within the context of his intellectual

16 capacity, which we addressed yesterday, within the framework of the basic

17 personality structure, he fully understands what is going on around him

18 and what is asked of him. That is not in dispute.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. What was in dispute was the use of the defence mechanisms, and I

21 think that that is how I understood what was in dispute yesterday.

22 Q. But both of you, you and your colleague, they find -- you both

23 found that he uses denial and suppression, and we just said that's kind --

24 a normal thing to do.

25 In your finding on the last page, point one, you say that -- you

Page 8010

1 speak of panicky reactions. We do not have to understand that he actually

2 has panic attacks, right? He has no panic attacks in the clinical sense.

3 A. I think that I clarified that yesterday. My task was to establish

4 the level of his intellectual functioning and his capabilities, the basic

5 defence mechanisms, and the basic level of functioning of his personality,

6 and I spoke to all these issues in the quantitative and qualitative sense,

7 and this is the role of a psychiatrist. So, yes, I did say in my finding

8 that he reacts by panic and that his type of reaction is one of panic and

9 anxiety.

10 Q. Yes, but it's not pathological. He's a normal person and normal

11 persons do that, right?

12 A. Let me repeat again. The judgement or the assessment on the level

13 of mental disease is something that a psychiatrist can give you. All I am

14 doing is give you the measurements based on the classifications and scales

15 available to psychologists. In other words, that is the basis that I use,

16 and I take into account the psychiatric examination, which is -- and the

17 recognised classification of mental disease. In other words, a

18 psychiatrist is the one who will then say whether this is a mental disease

19 or not.

20 Q. But my question was what he did, panicky reactions, a normal

21 person also experiences. It's nothing abnormal. It's normal to have

22 that. That's the point.

23 A. A panic reaction is something that we can all experience at some

24 time. However, if the level of that reaction is something that inhibits

25 or otherwise influences a previous functioning of personality, then that

Page 8011













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Page 8012

1 rises -- that goes beyond what you say and what we call a normal

2 reaction.

3 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac is a follower of orders, that he

4 would take over tasks given and carry them out. A lot of persons do that

5 to avoid conflicts, right?

6 A. It is possible, yes.

7 Q. And a lot of persons do this to receive benefits and credits,

8 right?

9 A. Probably.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic?

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I need to express concern where this

13 line of questioning is leading. It has nothing to do with the subject or

14 the subject of expertise. Many people are doing it for benefits and

15 credits? How is the expert to reply to this? Based on her own

16 experience, or based on what?

17 JUDGE HUNT: I should think that if you asked any psychologist or

18 psychiatrist whether they are qualified to give you that answer, they

19 would answer resoundingly yes. I can assure you that I have had something

20 like 40 years' experience of listening to them. But even apart from that,

21 this is, in my view, a permissible line of cross-examination because it

22 does test something which the witness has said earlier. It's something

23 which she's able to answer, in my view, from her common experience as a

24 psychologist, and it's something which is an appropriate way of testing

25 something she said earlier. I share with you some concern as to where we

Page 8013

1 are headed, but nevertheless it is open to the Prosecution to attempt to

2 demonstrate that one of the propositions put forward by this witness

3 should not be accepted, and on that basis I think we must allow it. I

4 hope that we will make it clear. I think I can understand where Ms.

5 Uertz-Retzlaff is headed.


7 Q. Can you tell us which of these, the former or the latter or both,

8 were Mr. Krnojelac's motives for following orders? Are you able to tell

9 us that?

10 A. Excuse me, I didn't quite follow you. What motives are you

11 referring to?

12 Q. To follow orders to avoid conflicts or to follow orders to receive

13 benefits? What would be his motive, as you know him now?

14 A. Taking into account the whole psychological examination which I

15 conducted, I think that this issues out of the -- his entire personality

16 structure, I think that I can exclude benefit from it almost completely.

17 Q. On what basis? Why would you say that?

18 A. Because I described him as a person who has a basic neurotic

19 defence mechanism, who reacts through anxiety and occasional panic attacks

20 which we have mentioned, and whose intellectual ability is of that kind,

21 and in the repertory of his behaviour shows no aggressive and impulsive

22 potential, something we also touched on yesterday.

23 Also, we talked about the level of manipulation, which we

24 excluded, at least I excluded from my psychological evaluation, because

25 yesterday I explained that the scales that measure the ability to show

Page 8014

1 oneself in a manipulative way in a particular light, these were not very

2 high, those levels. All this leads me to conclude what I have concluded

3 and what I have told you.

4 Q. You mentioned that the accused, put into -- yesterday during the

5 testimony, and not in actually your report, you mentioned that the

6 accused, put into a new and for him threatening situation, he would tend

7 to get out of it. Is this not contradictory to his conformism and his

8 passive character traits? To get out of something, that's active doing.

9 How can you draw this conclusion on the basis of what you told us about

10 his passivity and about his conformism?

11 A. What I said was that he was indecisive, that he delays or

12 hesitates, that in a certain sense that he's also ambivalent, that he's

13 passive and finally he withdraws from situations. I think that was the

14 sequence that I pointed out.

15 Q. So you wouldn't say that he would actively try to get out of it?

16 It's not what you meant?

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues]... you. You mentioned in your

19 report that in small places like Foca, teachers -- it's on, now I have

20 only the English. It's page 11, paragraph 2. And I'm just told it's also

21 in your B/C/S version. You say that in small places like Foca, teachers,

22 priests, and doctors are persons with special authorities, they carry

23 certain social attributes and the corresponding status. That's what you

24 found -- what you know from your experience. And you also referred in

25 paragraph 2 of the same section, to the article, "Tips on Becoming a

Page 8015

1 Teacher," and you list, among other specificities, ability to lead or

2 follow, right? That's what you wrote in your report.

3 A. Right.

4 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, is he able -- is able to lead others who are

5 subordinate to him, right? He's able to lead?

6 A. Perhaps I need to clarify this for you. This paragraph 2, page 11

7 of the B/C/S version, and paragraph 3, for that matter, was my

8 psychological interpretation and analysis, and this is what it states in

9 the heading, of his role as a teacher and his behaviour as a teacher.

10 This is not in the context of other events, so receiving orders and

11 situations in which he's a leader. I was referring to his position as

12 teacher. In other words, a professional situation. And in that sense and

13 context is how the paragraphs 2 and 3 were presented.

14 Q. However, he was not only a leading figure as a teacher as regards

15 to the pupils. When he worked in the KP Dom, he was the warden, and on

16 the first day he found the commission and told everybody what to do,

17 right? That's what he did and what he told you.

18 A. Yes. As regards to that commission, this is at least how I

19 understood him. He said that he found a fairly difficult, chaotic

20 situation, if I remember it correctly, that he did not feel competent

21 enough to deal with it on his own, and that he formed groups or -- whom he

22 tasked with various things, what they would be in charge of in the light

23 of their professional skills, and I interpreted that as a measure of his

24 not entering into a job that he doesn't know much about, and that was it.

25 Q. But forming commissions and telling everybody what to do and

Page 8016

1 tasking people, that's a certain form of leading, right? He has some

2 leading qualities?

3 A. Well, you see, my personal view is that if -- forming commissions,

4 that sounds quite serious. I think it was something ad hoc, at least that

5 was my understanding. And this is my impression, that he simply assigned

6 people to certain tasks. He delegated it. It wasn't an official

7 commission. In fact, I don't think that he ever mentioned that this was

8 done formally in writing. He simply found himself in a situation and

9 wanted other people to assist him too so that he could resolve the

10 problems arising from his work.

11 Q. The passivity that you found in Mr. Krnojelac only relates to

12 taking orders, not to carry them out. He is very active in carrying them

13 out, right?

14 A. Passivity is a character trait which, in combination with a basic

15 personality structure, in certain situation can be manifested in different

16 ways in different situations. It's just an aspect of personality. One

17 can be passive or active. Passive would be on the left side, the active

18 would be on the other, opposite side. But character traits are not

19 something that are manifested in a -- uniformly in every situation,

20 because it's a combination of the basic mechanisms of personality and so

21 on. In other words, they will reappear throughout behaviour. In other

22 words, if there is a passive -- if a person has passive trait, it is not

23 likely that they will show the opposite trait in another situation.

24 Q. The conformist personality --

25 JUDGE HUNT: It looks like we have the French translation

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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 8018

1 intruding into the English.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I will try it again.



5 Q. A conformist personality would most likely be a member of a

6 political party when it was common to be in such a party, right? A

7 conformist would most likely be in a party?

8 A. Yes. This is one of the traits of the membership, yes, just one

9 of them, though.

10 Q. And a conformist would also be a reserve officer in the former

11 Yugoslavia when it was socially well received to do that, especially in

12 his job, right?

13 A. Well, you see, I'm not an expert on matters military, so when you

14 ask me about reserve officers, I don't think I could explain it

15 professionally because I really do not know how one becomes a reserve

16 officer. I presume there is a hierarchy or it has to do with age, but I'm

17 a layman and I think that after a certain number of years, when somebody's

18 active duty ceases, he is then given some reserve service, but I do not

19 consider this a competent and professional answer to your question.

20 Q. A conformist personality would most likely attend political

21 rallies when it was socially well received and common to go there, right?

22 A. Well, in a sense, that would be one of the traits, but I suppose

23 that such an activity also necessitates some -- some other motives, some

24 other stimuli, not only the conformism. You can't pull it just out of

25 everything else.

Page 8019

1 Q. If such a personality would be offered a rather high-ranking

2 position in the local hierarchy, he would feel honoured and accept it with

3 pride, right?

4 A. Well, I couldn't really say like this off the cuff. If we are

5 talking about Mr. Krnojelac, then it means moving from a passive attitude

6 to obligation and tasks put before him, and in his professional career, he

7 had simply got inured to that and accepted it.

8 Q. In an environment in which people around him are behaving very

9 badly, even illegally, the most predictable reaction of the conformist,

10 given his personality, would not be opposing this behaviour but, rather,

11 fulfilling expectation of others and join the effort, right, the group

12 effort?

13 A. It wouldn't, because the gentleman that we are talking about does

14 not have that potential allowing aggressive manifestations or

15 impulsiveness, which is an important driving force of a personality and

16 which would then, in combination with conformist traits that you point

17 out, might bring about this. But yesterday, I pointed out that on the

18 basis of relatively high objective indicators after the tests, there were

19 no elements to indicate aggressiveness, impulsiveness, at least in the

20 malignant sense of the word.

21 Q. Mrs. Najman, we were not talking about any aggressive and any,

22 let's say, bloody actions, not torture or anything like this. We were

23 just talking about bad and maybe illegal behaviour. We did not include

24 aggressiveness or impulsiveness. We just -- if a group the conformist

25 belongs to is behaving badly and illegally, would he oppose it? Is it

Page 8020

1 more likely that he opposes it, or is it more likely that he simply does

2 fulfil his task within this environment, the task that he has?

3 A. I said what I said because it is my impression that you insist on

4 conformism, and I just said awhile ago is an isolated trait. But as a

5 psychologist, I cannot speak in this way, not only about Mr. Krnojelac but

6 about no other person, because personality is -- is a complex structure

7 and it encompasses traits and properties, abilities, habits, defence

8 mechanisms, and so on and so forth, so that to take out only one segment,

9 whichever, can mislead us in any direction and that is why I simply tried

10 to embrace the whole.

11 Q. Given the fact that you found rather similar character traits in

12 Mr. Radic, the shift commander in Omarska, and Mr. Krnojelac, would you

13 say that the obedient conformist personality is just the one that

14 authorities would choose for unpleasant tasks?

15 A. Well, you see, comparisons of any cases, and that includes

16 Mr. Radic's and Mr. Krnojelac's case, is not really something that an

17 expert witness will be happy about to talk, but I can tell you, since you

18 are asking me, that there are major differences, both in the -- in terms

19 of the level of conformism or acceptance of authority, let alone the

20 intellectual ability, the behavioural characteristics. And besides,

21 Mr. Radic is a man who was trained to work as a patrolman, as a policeman

22 on the beat, and he always did that. He did it all his life.

23 Q. Ms. Najman --

24 A. I say this --

25 Q. Ms. Najman, I was actually referring to both Mr. Krnojelac and

Page 8021

1 Mr. Radic in a more general sense, but we can disconnect them personally

2 from my question if you feel better with that.

3 Would you say that the obedient conformist personality, in

4 general, is just the one that authorities would pick for unpleasant tasks

5 because they would not oppose them; they would function?

6 A. In principle, yes, but I just wanted to explain that there was

7 fundamental difference as to their structure and the way in which they

8 accept authority, because if one speaks about the acceptance of authority

9 in Mr. Krnojelac's case, is not only the acceptance of authority formally

10 but also the -- his interiorised authority or, rather, imaginary authority

11 as we call it in psychology. That is not the real person, that he is

12 subordinated directly, but the imaginary authority which he wishes to

13 satisfy. So these are the ideas that were imparted to him by his parents

14 and what he expects and what he thinks others expect of him rather than a

15 specific person.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, no further questions.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Vasic.

18 MR. VASIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I only have a few

19 questions.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

21 Q. Mrs. Najman, when my learned friend asked you, you explained what

22 you meant and what kind of things you looked for when you wrote your

23 report on Mr. Krnojelac. I'd like to ask you only if during your

24 examination you had in mind everything that is usually done when a subject

25 is examined according to the psychological rules of conduct?

Page 8022

1 A. Yes, of course.

2 Q. When my learned friend asked you, you answered that a personality

3 who's -- one of the traits is conformism, and you said that such a person

4 tends to be a member of one political party only. Can you tell us if such

5 a person, that is, a person who is -- who is -- one of the traits is

6 conformism, is a member of a party for a long time, would he then cross

7 over to another party? Would that be typical of that person?

8 A. No, it wouldn't. And secondly, and I believe I pointed this out,

9 so I have to point it out when I'm -- in my answer to you; namely, that

10 conformism is one of the personality traits which cannot be treated,

11 psychologically speaking, separately from the general overview, general

12 analysis of a person. It is only one of the elements, only one of the

13 segments.

14 Q. Thank you. I was about to ask you that. And only one question

15 more.

16 My learned friend -- when you mentioned shortage of, deficiency,

17 absence of aggressiveness or impulsiveness in Mr. Krnojelac, my learned

18 friend related it to torture, murder, bloody behaviour. I should like to

19 ask you if aggressiveness and impulsiveness can be manifested only in

20 instances of torture or murder or do they come to the fore, do they come

21 to the surface in everyday situations?

22 A. To begin with, aggressiveness and impulsiveness are much more than

23 personality traits. They are part of the personality potential, and it is

24 dictated by the personality forces themselves, and it surfaces in the

25 earliest childhood, I should say from the early adolescence as -- and it

Page 8023













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Page 8024

1 is manifested in a maladjustment, in conflicts, more or less passive or

2 active manifestations of antisocial behaviour, absenteeism - that is

3 another form of passive aggressiveness - evasion of professional duties,

4 and of course what you talked about, active infliction of pain or damage

5 on another person, injuries; that is, pain, damage, injury on another

6 person, which is the ultimate result of the manifestation of one's

7 aggressive potential.

8 Q. Did you bear in mind all these areas of life when you said that in

9 the tests which Mr. Krnojelac did, you did not come across these traits?

10 A. Of course. Maybe I could add here that a psychologist's task is

11 to analyse tests, to analyse the case history of a subject and all the

12 other relevant information, and then on the basis of all of that, to put

13 together a portrait of the personality and its functioning, and whatever

14 biographical information which fits or does not fit into what we get

15 through the psychological examination is taken into account and is not

16 taken for granted.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mrs. Najman. The Defence

18 has no further questions in the examination of this witness.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mrs. Najman, for coming to give evidence.

20 You're now free to leave, but we do hope that you will remain with counsel

21 for the accused to assist them whilst your colleague is giving evidence.

22 But thank you again. Now, that is the time for you, I think, now, Ms.

23 Uertz-Retzlaff -- I'm sorry.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE HUNT: It's now time for you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, to call

Page 8025

1 your witness.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour, and I promise to be

3 even briefer than with Mrs. Najman.

4 JUDGE HUNT: You will produce the report in the same way?


6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Not only the report, but also the CV.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Now, madam, would you please make the

9 solemn declaration in the document the usher is showing you?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

17 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

18 Q. Good morning. Would you please state your name and birth date.

19 A. My name is Vera Folnegovic-Smalc, and I was born on the 28th of

20 July 1943.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution would like to

22 enter into evidence the CV of Mrs. Folnegovic-Smalc. It would be P458.

23 That would be the next number.

24 JUDGE HUNT: That's right. Any objection to that, Mr. Vasic?

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

Page 8026

1 JUDGE HUNT: The curriculum vitae for Mrs. Folnegovic-Smalc will

2 be P458.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: As the next, we would like to enter her

4 written opinion on Mr. Krnojelac in both languages, English and B/C/S.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Vasic?

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit P459 and P459A.


9 Q. Mrs. Folnegovic-Smalc, we do not need to go into your CV, and you

10 also do not need to repeat your written opinion. I just have some

11 additional questions which relate to what your colleague told us. Your

12 colleague yesterday mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac's professional training

13 and development was kind of special. What was this specialty? What made

14 it so special? Can you tell us?

15 A. Yes, Your Honours, when explaining this specific moments which my

16 colleague Najman referred to, I think we need to add the following: These

17 specificities did not happen on his side. They simply derived from the

18 situation that he lived in or that befell him. Let me explain.

19 Mr. Krnojelac started school later than was the average school starting

20 age for children in the then Yugoslavia. He lived rather far away from

21 the school and he started at school later. So this is the first

22 specificity. The second one --

23 JUDGE HUNT: If you could speak just a little more slowly? You

24 are giving the interpreters a hard time there. Just a little more slowly,

25 please.

Page 8027

1 A. Yes. Thank you. I'll try to. The second specificity was that

2 when he finished four grades of the primary school, mostly to make his

3 mother happy, enrolls in the secondary school. The Yugoslav schooling

4 system at the time was undergoing a reform, moving from four-grade

5 elementary schools to eight-grade elementary schools, and that reform took

6 place precisely during Mr. Krnojelac's education. And at the moment when

7 he was to finish the secondary school in his town, that is in Foca, the

8 teachers' college was established. And having completed a few grades of

9 the secondary school, he moves over to the teaching college and I think

10 cuts short -- shorter his education, I believe, by some two years. So

11 this is one of the specificities, one of the characteristics, of his

12 education.

13 The next specificity was that, as a teacher, he was authorised or

14 ordered to go and enroll in the university studies, which in part take

15 place alongside his work. That is, the situations were specific during

16 his education, in the course of his education.

17 Q. You actually do not need -- when I ask you a question, you do not

18 need to repeat the facts. It's just the substance that I'm actually

19 looking at. Did he receive in his education benefits? Would you call it

20 that he got benefits by having this special treatment or training

21 situation? Or has that nothing to do with it?

22 A. Well, it is difficult for me to say if these are benefits, since I

23 have said he educate -- his schooling lasted two years less, so I would

24 say it was a minus because his -- the knowledge he acquired was

25 necessarily deficient, but on the other hand, yes, those were no doubt

Page 8028

1 benefits.

2 Q. You heard Mrs. Najman testify that the accused lacked curiosity

3 and had no spirit of examination. Would you agree to this? Did you also

4 find that?

5 A. Well, curiosity, I think he does have it, and I think that I can

6 agree with that.

7 Q. I don't know if you understand my question or if the translation

8 was correct. Mrs. Najman actually said that the accused lacked curiosity

9 and he had no spirit of investigation, and I was asking you if you agreed

10 to this, and then your answer is here, "I think he does have curiosity" --

11 or, "Well, curiosity, I think he does have it, and I think that I can

12 agree with that." It is actually not really --

13 A. Let me be very specific. I cannot affirm that a priori he does

14 not have curiosity and a spirit of investigation as a personality, but in

15 his behaviour, they rarely surface. There are seldom manifestations of it

16 in his behaviour.

17 Q. In relation to your evaluation of the accused, and I refer here to

18 the chapter "Mental Status" that you wrote, it struck me that throughout

19 this chapter, you use the word "normal", "adequate," "adapted." Does that

20 mean the accused is simply an average person? Was that your finding?

21 A. I'd like to thank you for this question, but before I say a few

22 words about his mental state, I should like to say this is the

23 continuation of colleague Najman's interpretation when she said that the

24 psychologist defines the structure of the personality on the basis of

25 tests, and that is a descriptive analysis, and it is the psychiatrist's

Page 8029

1 task to say what was pathological in this person's life or at a given

2 moment and whether that person shows signs of some mental disorder. In

3 psychiatry, when we speak about an illness or disorder, it is important to

4 say that that is so. The psychology applies tests to -- and let me

5 simplify it, offers a greater chance that that person will indeed be such

6 as it is, but that is the state of a normal man. During the examination,

7 but also in his life, he was -- he did not satisfy the criteria that would

8 allow us to say that we are dealing with a case of mental disorder.

9 Q. You are aware that your colleague, Ms. Najman, found increased

10 anxiety and she also generalised and said he would have that most likely

11 in each new situation. Would you agree to this?

12 A. The anxiety which was manifested by Mr. Krnojelac during a test

13 was anxiety, and that was evident. But again, this anxiety would not

14 satisfy the criteria allowing us to call it a mental disorder. It is an

15 anxious type of reaction, but its intensity is not such as required by the

16 psychiatric diagnosis of a disorder.

17 Q. And these emotional difficulties and anxiety that he experienced

18 were actually related to this very particular test situation in a

19 detention, and he, being asked, as a teacher, in a superior position -- in

20 a subordinate position, right? Is that what you found?

21 A. I think that it was precisely that situation, because he is a

22 teacher and he was always the examiner. He was the one who asked

23 questions, and the pupils were his examinees. Now, all of a sudden, he is

24 placed in a situation where he becomes the examinee and not the examiner.

25 That is on the one hand. On the other, when a normal man is asked to do a

Page 8030













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 8031

1 test and he doesn't know how he will resolve it, and he has relatively

2 high education, then that adds to the stress. So the conditions of stress

3 under which Mr. Krnojelac was in that time, I think, are responsible for

4 that anxiety that we noted in him.

5 Q. Is Mr. Krnojelac able to process a situation intellectually and

6 act accordingly even in an unexpected and difficult situation? What would

7 you say?

8 A. I answer this question indirectly in my written report, but I'll

9 be very specific. Yes.

10 Q. And Mrs. Najman explained and mentioned this panicky reaction that

11 Mr. Krnojelac, according to her finding, had. Would you -- did you also

12 notice panicky reactions?

13 A. You see, for a psychologist and a psychiatrist, it is something

14 that is similar but different. My colleague Madam Najman I think

15 described it as a panic type of reaction, and I say that it is a panic

16 type of reaction but that does not rise to the level, that is, to the

17 intensity of a diagnosis of a panic attack. In other words, Madam Najman

18 referred several times to the classifications that are used today. One is

19 the DSM-IV classification of the American Psychiatric Association. The

20 other is the ICD-10 classification, which says that a level should be four

21 or higher.

22 At one point the gentleman showed a reaction which was similar to

23 a panic type of reaction, paniform, I would call it, but did not rise to

24 the level of establishing it as a psychiatric type of panic attack.

25 Q. Your colleague also found that in almost each new situation

Page 8032

1 determined and controlled by others, the accused would feel overpowering

2 fear and this increased anxiety and may not be able to access the

3 situation intellectually. Would you agree to this? Would you say that it

4 is such general -- could you draw such a general conclusion?

5 A. I think that Madam Najman, when using it as "new" meant something

6 very specific. For instance, the gentleman was very excited the first day

7 in the way I just described, but on the second day, he solved this test.

8 So the question is: What did she mean by the word "new" or a "new

9 situation"? In other words, on the second day he solved the same test.

10 Q. Let's assume that the accused felt fear and anxiety when he was

11 made the prison warden. According to your experience, how long would this

12 fear and anxiety prevail?

13 A. It's a short-lived reaction. It is something that he -- that he

14 experienced when he faced it. It may recur in a milder form, but it is

15 not -- it is not an enduring state.

16 Q. And when you said short-lived reaction, how short? Could you be

17 specific or is it not possible to say?

18 A. You see, this type of anxiety, according to the definition, lasts

19 from several minutes to half an hour to up to one hour. Specifically, in

20 the classification of the panic disorder, it is stated that it reaches its

21 highest point within ten minutes.

22 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac is a follower of orders, just as

23 Mrs. Najman found. In an environment in which people around him are

24 behaving very badly, even commit crimes, what would be his most

25 predictable reaction? Would he oppose such behaviour or would he tend to

Page 8033

1 fulfil the expectation of these other people around him and join the group

2 effort? Are you able to say?

3 A. You see, a psychiatrist and a psychologist would give an expertise

4 as a team. In evaluating character traits, this is the aspect a

5 psychologist would deal with. And I have nothing to add to the comments

6 of my colleague, and I would say I'd rather stay within the bounds that

7 she has defined.

8 Q. And would you say that the obedient conformist personality is just

9 the person authorities might find useful for unpleasant tasks or is that

10 also not your field to answer that?

11 A. You see, I'll put it in a very theoretical way. One would need to

12 know what the authorities wanted. If the authorities wanted -- the

13 question really is a very complex one, but anyway, the conformists are

14 people who subject themselves to the authorities. So a person who is a

15 conformist - and in a specific case my colleague and I were in agreement

16 on this - such a person does not need to be a conformist all the time. It

17 is a model that this person will choose, for the most part, and this would

18 be sort of a generalised answer to your question.

19 Q. Mrs. Najman mentioned in her report that in small places like

20 Foca, teachers, priests, and doctors are persons with special authority

21 and that they carry certain social attributes and the corresponding

22 status. Would you also agree to this? Is that your experience from the

23 former Yugoslavia?

24 A. Absolutely, yes. Yes.

25 Q. And Mr. Krnojelac, from his personality, would he be able to lead

Page 8034

1 others that are subordinate to him? Would he have the abilities?

2 A. I think that he would, yes.

3 Q. And -- but at the same time, you and your colleague mentioned that

4 he follows higher authorities when the situation demands it. Is that not

5 contradictory?

6 A. Yes, it is contradictory, but this is precisely the domain of

7 psychology, and this is -- what the psychology says is that the chances

8 are that this will be his behaviour but it need not be. I would like to

9 point out -- to quote my colleague. I did not read this article, but I

10 think it is a very good example. I think she found it in the

11 psychological -- psychology literature, and at one point it says it can

12 lead or follow depending on the situation. That very sentence shows that

13 two opposing types of behaviour are present. So a person can be both a

14 leader and a follower depending on the situation.

15 Q. Your colleague mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac, in difficult -- put

16 into a difficult situation, would tend to get out of it. Would you also

17 expect this of him as a reaction, given his passivity and also given his

18 following orders?

19 A. It would be hard for me to answer that question, because I do not

20 have enough arguments that would give me the right to say how he would

21 react in such situations. For instance, he was sent to study. He took a

22 long time, but he completed his study. It could have happened that he

23 left his studies, that he did not complete them, but he did go through.

24 And he was a warden of this institution, but then he filed a request to be

25 relieved of his duty.

Page 8035













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 8036

1 Q. You said that it would be hard for you to answer that question

2 because you do not have enough arguments. Would that not also apply to

3 Ms. Najman? Would she not also lack enough facts?

4 A. Professor Najman is a psychologist, and she's better qualified to

5 use the test results to establish a probable personality structure of the

6 subject.

7 Q. The conformist personality, would such a person most likely be a

8 member of a party when it was common to be a member of a party?

9 A. Probably, yes.

10 Q. And Mr. Krnojelac was an officer in the reserve forces. You are

11 aware of this fact, right? Are you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. At that time in the former Yugoslavia, was it popular and would

14 one get benefits from being a reserve officer? Do you know?

15 A. You see, it is difficult for me to answer that question because I

16 am a woman. In my circle of friends, I have no one who ever told me that

17 they were a reserve officer, so I don't know whether this was a privilege

18 or not. I personally do not know anyone who was a reserve officer in the

19 former Yugoslavia.

20 Q. Yes.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Mr. Vasic.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

25 Q. Good afternoon, Madam Folnegovic.

Page 8037

1 A. Good afternoon to you.

2 Q. In my examination-in-chief of Madam Najman, I asked a question

3 relating to your finding, and you were present. You heard it. It is page

4 12, paragraph 2, which today was quoted by my learned friend. In other

5 words, he --

6 JUDGE HUNT: One moment, Mr. Vasic. I'm afraid the interpreter is

7 trying to find that quote.

8 THE INTERPRETER: If I can just be given the reference, please.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Can you give him the reference again?

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Of course.

11 It's paragraph 2 on page 12 of Madam Folnegovic's --

12 JUDGE HUNT: English or B/C/S? English or B/C/S?

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] This is in B/C/S.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, there's no page 12 in the English

15 version.

16 JUDGE HUNT: No. The B/C/S version it was.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can help by saying that it

18 is in the last page of the report with Madam Folnegovic's signature.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel please repeat the quote?

20 JUDGE HUNT: You start again, please, Mr. Vasic.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Let me quote again. You said -- you said that he -- that

23 Mr. Krnojelac tends to obey orders from superior authorities. He

24 understands the order, fully tests and processes it intellectually and

25 emotionally, carries it out and processes it and then uses it -- uses the

Page 8038

1 defence mechanisms denial and suppression.

2 I asked Madam Najman, because I thought that this was a

3 description of the rational acts of a person, and she explained that it

4 was not on a rational level that these acts were done. Can you answer

5 that question?

6 A. Thank you for this question. The fact that we both understood in

7 the same way is probably due to the specificity of our language. We both

8 imply that this is irrational because the defence mechanisms are not

9 rational. But I do allow that somebody who is not a psychologist or

10 psychiatrist could be confused, because it looked -- it looked as if we

11 were hinting at something and then were going to elaborate on it. But I

12 would perhaps translate this into a language that may be more

13 intelligible, and it would --

14 Q. I can just slow you down, madam, because the interpreters may

15 struggle with it.

16 A. He is -- he tends to obey orders from superior authorities. He

17 understands the order and intellectually and emotionally he fully tests

18 and processes it, as well as carries it out. I would put then a full

19 stop. He then uses the defence mechanisms denial and suppression.

20 Q. Thank you, Madam Folnegovic. Page 7 of your finding, you pointed

21 out that Mr. Krnojelac's house was torched. In your opinion, how did he

22 take that event?

23 A. The question was very sad. While describing this incident, he

24 showed sadness. He was still upset, and he showed suffering.

25 Q. You said that he was upset, anguished. In psychiatry do such

Page 8039

1 manifestations have any diagnostic value, these types of feelings?

2 A. Yes. This expression of emotions is significant in psychiatry,

3 and we would say that this was an adequate emotional answer to a stress

4 situation.

5 Q. You just mentioned a stress situation and his emotional response.

6 In your classification, is stress also listed as a disorder?

7 A. In both international classifications that are in force today,

8 stress is included within the field of psychiatry, and it is described --

9 and it is classified in various subgroups. One is the acute reaction to

10 stress, second is disorders that refer to the adaptation to the situation,

11 and something that in the former Yugoslavia, and it is also something that

12 is very popular in the US following the Vietnam War, is post-traumatic

13 stress syndrome.

14 Q. You mentioned post-traumatic stress disorder. How long can this

15 disorder last and what are its consequences?

16 A. Post-traumatic stress syndrome is defined really by when it

17 starts. As a rule, it starts about one month after the stress event, and

18 it could -- and in its acute phase, it can last for up to six months and

19 it can become chronic, which, depending on the treatment, can go on for

20 the rest of the life. Also, it can be transformed into a psychological

21 disorder. After the post-traumatic stress syndrome is run out, it is

22 redefined and in -- it is considered irreversible in that form.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Folnegovic, you are starting your answer

24 immediately following the question because you are both speaking the same

25 language. It does not give the interpreters any chance to catch up. So

Page 8040

1 would you pause before you start your answer?

2 Yes, Mr. Vasic?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. It happens to all of us in

5 the courtroom, I have to say.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Including the judges.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Madam Folnegovic, on page 7 of your finding, you pointed out facts

9 which had to do with the wounding of Mr. Krnojelac's sons and you wrote

10 that in describing their wounding, he still shows an emotional reaction of

11 stronger intensity. Can you describe his emotional response when he talks

12 about these tragic events?

13 A. The description of his emotional response when he talks about the

14 wounding of his sons is similar to the emotional response when he

15 describes his burnt out house. Again you see pain in his face. He

16 doesn't even verbalise it. He's a person who, in addition to

17 verbalisation, has a capacity of facial expression. It is so-called body

18 communication. For psychiatrists and psychologists, he manifests a

19 dejection and a person who still has a feeling of discomfort when

20 describing these things.

21 Q. What you told us about his emotional responses regarding the burnt

22 house can also be applied to this situation when he talks about the

23 situation in which his sons were wounded?

24 A. Yes, completely.

25 Q. Thank you, Madam Folnegovic. Today, when answering a question of

Page 8041













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 8042

1 my learned friend, you talked about the mode of behaviour of a personality

2 who one of the traits is conformism. I would like to ask you, is that a

3 dominant trait or do other traits also play a part in his personality?

4 A. I believe that my colleague Madam Najman gave a full answer, and I

5 completely agree that a single trait which has been recognised by a

6 psychological test is not the only factor in one's behaviour, and that is

7 precisely one of the cautions that we have to apply in the interpretation

8 of psychological tests, because a novice psychologist can interpret a test

9 in this way, but it is really the subsequent experience and practice of an

10 expert that will provide the real measure of which of the character traits

11 is the dominant one. In other words, the answer to your question would be

12 as follows: In the behaviour of the subject, it is a good -- there is a

13 good chance that he will behave in a conformist way, which does not

14 exclude that in a particular situation he may act otherwise. But the

15 chance of him doing so is greater. Excuse me, if I may just add, in

16 psychology, it is a chance that something may happen. It is not

17 equivalent of if somebody is psychotic and not tested -- and does not show

18 in the test. If -- then it would be a disease. This would just be a

19 tendency of a certain person to be this way.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Folnegovic.

21 Your Honour, I believe that this would be the right time for us to

22 break.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We will resume again at 2.30.

24 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.


Page 8043

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Q. Good afternoon, everybody.

5 Mrs. Folnegovic, during the direct examination of you and

6 Dr. Najman, conformism was frequently mentioned as his personality trait.

7 Did you -- do you see Mr. Krnojelac merely as a conformist or as something

8 else too, and what would that be if that is the case?

9 A. I'm -- surely I saw Mr. Krnojelac as a complete personality, not

10 only as a conformist, because he has a number of other traits. I can list

11 a whole string of those. But the tests showed conformism as one of the

12 predominant features of his personality and that is why we emphasised this

13 more, but I could now go on for hours telling you about all the features,

14 about all the traits that we found in him but which we did not describe in

15 our papers for the simple reason that it did not somehow make part of

16 something that did not seem of particular relevance for this particular

17 expertise.

18 Q. And those other personality traits that you found in

19 Mr. Krnojelac, do they affect his behaviour in various situations in

20 life?

21 A. Yes, of course.

22 Q. Thank you. My learned friend asked you in the direct examination

23 if there was anxiety as -- whether anxiety was one of the reactions of

24 Mr. Krnojelac at the time when he was appointed the warden and that it was

25 followed by a period of adaptation and that that anxiety then subsided and

Page 8044

1 persisted only at a much lower level.

2 I should like to ask you, what is your opinion after

3 Mr. Krnojelac's appointment as the warden when there was this lower degree

4 of anxiety, but in some situations where he would come face to face with

5 problems whilst discharging his function of the warden and director of the

6 economic unit? Would this -- would the quantity, would the amount of

7 anxiety increase on those occasions when he had to -- when he tried to

8 solve problems that he had no previous experience with?

9 A. Yes. According to psychological tests, Mr. Krnojelac is prone to

10 anxious reactions and that is one of his personality traits. So higher

11 anxiety is the one that we spoke, and we said when that happen. But his

12 personality trait is that he becomes anxious at particular moments. That

13 is a datum of his personality, and it may surface now and then, every now

14 and then.

15 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs. Folnegovic.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no

17 further questions in re-examination.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, Mr. Vasic.

19 Re-examination?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, but very briefly only.

21 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

22 Q. When the Defence asked you about the emotional reactions of the

23 accused when his house was burned and how his son was injured so

24 seriously, the emotional reaction that he showed then, were they what you

25 actually would expect of a person who tells you such bad events or was it

Page 8045

1 kind of abnormal or extraordinary?

2 A. If we assume that Mr. Krnojelac is a normal personality, and he

3 is, then this was a normal response to such a stress.

4 Q. And did you find any signs of post-traumatic stress disorder in

5 him when you examined him?

6 A. When I examined him, yes, I took note of possible symptoms or

7 signs of the post-traumatic -- post-traumatic stress disorder, and I can

8 confirm with confidence that according to his history, Mr. Krnojelac did

9 not show any post-traumatic stress disorder, nor does he suffer from it

10 now.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much indeed, Mrs. Folnegovic. You may

13 leave. We are grateful to both of you for having been here whilst the

14 other gave evidence, because it does save an immense amount of time.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE HUNT: Now we are back into the accused's evidence. Perhaps

18 we could bring Mr. Krnojelac across now.


20 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, Mr. Krnojelac. Mr. Krnojelac, you

21 are still bound by the solemn declaration that you made at the

22 commencement of your evidence. Do you understand that?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I do.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Ms. Kuo.

25 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 8046

1 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]

2 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, just before the break, you were telling us that you

3 orally asked Mr. Radevic to have your house fixed. Do you remember that?

4 A. I do, yes, I remember it was oral.

5 Q. Shortly after you spoke with him about this, you received wood

6 from Maglic and tiles from the Zelengora Agricultural Cooperative, which

7 was brought to the KP Dom, right?

8 A. Well, it wasn't right away, because from Maglic it did not come to

9 the KP Dom, it went straight to the house, that is the house that had

10 burned down. And the roof tiles I needed to cover the house, it was

11 brought to the KP Dom and it was a vehicle which belonged to Zelengora.

12 Q. So the tiles that were being used to rebuild your rooftop of your

13 house were brought to the KP Dom first and then from there transported to

14 your house, right?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. And in addition, there were metal doors and a metal staircase that

17 were produced at the Drina Economic Unit metalwork shop that were also

18 brought to your house, right?

19 A. Metal door and the metal framework for the staircase, those were

20 brought to the house at a later stage, but they had not been completed in

21 the -- they were still being made in the metalwork shop, so they were not

22 completed yet, and they were taken over to the house later.

23 Q. The metal items produced in the metalwork shop were made by Muslim

24 detainees there, right?

25 A. They were made in the metalwork shop from my material and

Page 8047













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Page 8048

1 presumably they were made by Muslim detainees.

2 Q. You never received a bill for the work that the Muslim detainees

3 did, did you?

4 A. I said that it was made of my material and I received a bill, and

5 I paid it at the cashier's of the KP Dom. When I took over the door and

6 that staircase framework, I then also paid that bill.

7 Q. You didn't pay for the labour cost, did you?

8 A. So what else did I pay, if not labour? Because the material was

9 mine. Will you please just remember that there was a document requesting

10 tin plates, tin sheet, so there was no tin sheet in the KP Dom and I

11 bought it at Maglic, and so what else was there to pay if not the manual

12 labour since the material was mine? And that bill also said, "Made of the

13 material which is the private property of the client."

14 Q. How much did you pay for the metal doors and the metal staircase?

15 A. Believe me that I can't remember it now. And even if I could, if

16 you think all the devaluation of the dinar, I simply couldn't remember the

17 figure. All I know is that it was paid for and that it wasn't a bargain

18 at that, because the metalwork shop had its norms and one had to pay them

19 for work per hour, and that was as of before, before the outbreak of the

20 armed conflicts. It had programmed the hours needed to produce whatever,

21 and that is how they made their calculations, and that was paid.

22 Q. Could you tell us approximately how much you paid?

23 A. I can't. To lie, to think my honour would not permit me to do any

24 such thing, and I have sworn to speak the truth, and therefore, I cannot

25 remember now.

Page 8049

1 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, isn't it true that you cannot tell us the figure

2 because you didn't pay anything? You didn't pay anything for that work.

3 It was simply given to you for free; isn't that right?

4 A. Please, don't. How can you claim that, that it was free? I'm

5 telling you that I paid for it. I'm very sorry that this document could

6 not be -- and that receipt could not be found, but it was paid at the

7 cashier's in the KP Dom, absolutely, because I who paid know that it was

8 paid, and you who were not there, now you are suggesting that it was not.

9 I don't know how can you do that?

10 Q. Surely --

11 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, I don't want there to be any problem about

12 this when we read it in the transcript, but when the accused says he paid

13 for it, I think you will have to put to him, paid for the labour, because

14 he said independently he paid for the material.

15 MS. KUO: Yes. Thank you for that clarification.

16 Q. What I'm asking you about is about the labour. What you've just

17 described pertained to the labour; is that right?

18 A. Labour I paid, and for the material I paid in the warehouse at

19 Maglic. And that was brought to the metalwork shop, and there I paid only

20 for the labour, for the work done.

21 Q. Any kind of bill of that sort would be kept in the KP Dom record,

22 right?

23 A. That is how it should be, and there should be a copy in the

24 cashier's office, when it was paid and how much was paid.

25 Q. In fact, at that time you were the person in charge of the Drina

Page 8050

1 Economic Unit, so you would have had access to those records, right?

2 A. No, I wouldn't have access to these records, because there is a

3 special accounting department who takes -- which takes care of that and

4 whose job it is. It is simply not my job. So how could I have access to

5 it? Well, if I had access, then I would have been granted access, no

6 doubt about that.

7 Q. And in preparation for your defence, you never got access to that

8 receipt in the records that the KP Dom kept?

9 A. Excuse me, but on the 15th of June, 1998, I left the town of

10 Foca. I was arrested. So how could -- how could I have access to that

11 documentation any more? It's impossible.

12 Q. In the course of fixing up your house, you kept detailed records

13 of all the repairs that were being done, right?

14 A. I did not keep any detailed records. I only know what was done,

15 because I never kept any such particular record as to what was being

16 done. What we said was to fix the roof and to clear all the ashes and all

17 the rubble that had remained there after the fire. So what record would

18 one keep of that?

19 Q. I'd like to show -- are you claiming that you personally paid for

20 the metalwork labour or that the municipality paid for it? You're saying

21 you personally paid out of your pocket, right?

22 A. I said, just as you look at me now, that I paid it out of my own

23 pocket.

24 Q. What I don't understand then, Mr. Krnojelac, is why you had to go

25 to the municipality to ask for your house to be fixed if you were able to

Page 8051

1 do it yourself.

2 A. Well, I told you there was this devaluation, so that from the --

3 so if the work was completed a month earlier and a bill issued, then

4 30 days later, if you paid 30 days later, it would have been already

5 devalued enough so that one could pay it.

6 And I went to the municipality with a different intention, that

7 is, in 1995, 1996, and onward, because -- please, I don't know if you can

8 understand me, if you can get my meaning. If I take ten dinars or ten

9 marks - it doesn't matter - and you cross one zero, then it's only one

10 mark. And the devaluation at that time was such that I think in a

11 conversation, whether here or before, I said that if you received a salary

12 today, then you could still buy two eggs today, but tomorrow you couldn't

13 buy a single egg.

14 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I think we all understand what "devaluation" means,

15 but that wasn't my question. I'm afraid that there may be some confusion

16 in the record as a result of your answer most recently.

17 You said that you went to the municipality with a different

18 intention, that is, in 1995 and 1996. Are you saying that you went to the

19 municipality the first time about your house in 1995 and 1996 or that you

20 went already in 1992? I just want to be clear about that.

21 A. I am telling you that the first time I went was in 1992, and then

22 I also went there in 1995 and 1996.

23 Q. When you went to the municipality to ask for help in building your

24 house, it was because of the economic problems that you and other people

25 in Foca faced, right?

Page 8052

1 A. At that time, the municipality began to receive the humanitarian

2 aid from other organisations. So I went and applied and registered to

3 show them that I wanted to have my house repaired, that it was my wish to

4 have my house fixed as quickly as possible, because I longed to return to

5 my house, to my home.

6 Q. And there were other people in town whose houses needed to be

7 repaired, like Savo Obrenovic, but whose companies paid for the repairs,

8 right?

9 A. Savo Obrenovic was employed, was a post office worker even before

10 the armed conflict, and the post office was, therefore, more powerful, but

11 my situation was quite different. I had this disposition and went to the

12 KP Dom, that is, to the penitentiary, reformatory, and during that time,

13 the penitentiary, reformatory had absolutely no obligation as far as I was

14 concerned.

15 Q. So you didn't have the company to pay for the building of your

16 house and that is why you had to go to the municipality, right?

17 A. What time do you have in mind?

18 Q. I'm still talking about 1992. Let's forget about 1995. In 1992,

19 that is why you went to Mr. Radevic in the municipality, right?

20 A. That was the first time that I went to the municipal hall to ask

21 for this material in order to protect the house. I believe I was quite

22 clear yesterday.

23 Q. Sir --

24 A. I asked either for a plastic sheet or --

25 Q. Sir, you do not need to repeat. I'm asking you to confirm that

Page 8053













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Page 8054

1 there's been no misunderstanding between us. I would like your answers to

2 be very clear and that's why I'm asking you to confirm.

3 So when you went to see the representative of the municipality and

4 told him of your problems, you received wood and tiles from the

5 municipality to fix your house, right?

6 A. Either you don't want to understand me or I'm not getting a good

7 interpretation, please. In 1992, the first time I went to the municipal

8 hall, I didn't go to see Mladjenovic, but Radevic, who was responsible for

9 refugees.

10 Q. Sir, that must have been a translation error. I did say

11 "Mr. Radevic."

12 And as a result of your conversation at the municipality, you

13 received wood and tiles in order to fix your house, right?

14 A. No. It was -- the wood, the timber was a present to me from

15 Mr. Milosevic in Maglic. Maglic is timber industry.

16 Q. And were the tiles also a present?

17 A. And roof tiles from the agriculture cooperative. It was also a

18 present for the house, a present, a gift.

19 Q. And the metal, was that also a present?

20 A. I had to pay for the metal. I had to pay Maglic for the metal

21 because it was in scarce supply. They didn't have enough material, so

22 they couldn't make a gift of it. I had to pay for the metal tubing and

23 the tin sheet.

24 Q. The municipality then didn't give you anything, right, even though

25 you had requested help?

Page 8055

1 A. In 1992, no, nothing.

2 Q. You also received -- strike that. You didn't -- there wasn't

3 anybody available in town to do work on your house, right, such as to put

4 the tiles on the roof? Craftsmen were in short supply?

5 A. I do not know if there were any craftsmen or if there weren't, but

6 I know that such matters were within the jurisdiction of the Civil Defence

7 staff attached to the municipal hall. They were to help with the works

8 and repairs in those cases when these things could be done rather

9 quickly.

10 Q. So let me just make sure this is clear. You did not receive any

11 materials from the municipality, but you did receive help from the

12 municipality, right, in providing labour?

13 A. Who provided the labour, I cannot say because I do not know. I

14 know who worked, but who had provided them, who had ordered them, that I

15 do not know.

16 Q. In fact the people who worked on your house were all Muslim

17 detainees, right? Different craftsmen?

18 A. That's why I'm telling you, I do not know who had ordered it, but

19 I know who worked there, and with those craftsmen there were other two,

20 that is the same man who worked there before the house burned down, Bogdan

21 Kostic, because he was the supervisor before -- I mean, before the house

22 burnt down, he was the supervisor there, and he worked on that house when

23 it was erected for the first time.

24 Q. You never paid for the labour performed on your house, did you?

25 I'm not talking about the metal doors that were made in the workshop, but

Page 8056

1 the actual house work, the work on the premises of your house, you never

2 paid for that, did you?

3 A. Nobody ever sent me an invoice or a bill.

4 Q. And you never found out or tried to find out who arranged for

5 these Muslim detainees from the KP Dom to work on your house?

6 A. I'd really like you to understand me. Of all the problems that

7 you already know about in February, I had other problems and difficulties,

8 so what with the work in my working unit and all these misfortunes that

9 struck me in February, I never learned who had ordered and how did it come

10 to pass that the house was roofed. I simply thought it was the civilian

11 staff of the municipality of Foca, that they had arranged it and done it.

12 Q. So by February, that is the work -- by February, the roof was

13 repaired; is that right?

14 A. Yes, the roof was repaired.

15 Q. And that meant that the people working on your house, on the roof,

16 worked through the winter months when it was very cold, right?

17 A. I think in November or early December, that is when the house was

18 roofed, 1992.

19 Q. Who made arrangements to have these detainees taken from the KP

20 Dom to your house?

21 A. Well, I've been saying all this time that I really did not know

22 and I'm not aware who had organised this. I really don't know, believe

23 me.

24 Q. You yourself once transported one of the detainees to your house

25 in your red Yugo, right? And you told him that nothing would happen to

Page 8057

1 him as long as you were warden, didn't you?

2 A. I affirm that in that respect, I never transferred or assigned any

3 of the men to my house. I never transported anybody, either in my own

4 Yugo or in any other vehicle.

5 Q. The detainees, when they were working at your house, were guarded

6 by your sons, right?

7 A. I don't know whether they themselves were guarding, but I know

8 that my son Spomenko was there throughout the work on the house. I don't

9 know if he was assigned to guarding them or not. That I don't know.

10 Q. But the detainees had to have security while they were working

11 because they were still in custody, right? They weren't free to leave.

12 A. I don't know why you insist so much on that, because I told you, I

13 don't know how many times, that I had nothing to do with those detainees.

14 Whoever brought them there also guarded them there.

15 Q. But my question was: They had to have security, right, and you

16 knew that?

17 A. I'm telling you, whoever brought these detainees there was also

18 responsible for their security, and I did not know at all who it was who

19 provided that security, because it wasn't me who was assigning them

20 there. I told you who was in charge of what.

21 Q. But Mr. Krnojelac, you were present at times when these detainees

22 were actually doing work on your house, right?

23 A. My presence there, which could have been five, ten minutes, cannot

24 be construed to mean that I was there all the time. I may have just come

25 by to have a smoke. If I had some cigarettes, I would share with them,

Page 8058

1 but it wasn't my presence there, it was just my casual coming by and it

2 had nothing to do with control of work. I would just come there for a

3 cigarette break and to see how the work progressed. So this would be a

4 presence of five to ten minutes, and if I recall well, I was there for

5 only about two occasions in all this time on that location.

6 Q. It's quite natural, Mr. Krnojelac, that when work is being done on

7 one's house, that a person would want to go see how it's going, and I

8 would also assume that somebody checking on work on the house would like

9 to know who exactly is in his house. So are you telling us that you

10 didn't know who was guarding these men at your house, whether they were

11 security guards or anyone else? Is that what you're telling us?

12 A. All I know and all I'm saying is that my son Spomenko was there

13 every day, just as this man Bogdan Kostic was there. Now, whether

14 Spomenko had tasks of guarding them or not, or it was someone else, but I,

15 on the two occasions when I went there, I -- on one of them, I saw a

16 policeman who was in uniform and he was from the police station, and he

17 was standing in front of the house.

18 Q. He was from the civilian police force, the SUP?

19 A. Yes, SUP, yes.

20 Q. He was guarding the detainees?

21 A. He was there. I don't know whether his task was to guard or not,

22 or there was some other people there, that I don't know, but I saw him at

23 -- in front of the house, in the street.

24 Q. In the street?

25 A. Yes, because in the street in front of the house, because the

Page 8059













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Page 8060

1 house is about five metres from the street, this house.

2 Q. You didn't find out if he was guarding the people or if he was

3 just doing his job as a policeman walking on the street? You didn't ask

4 to see if he was guarding the people who were working inside your house?

5 A. I'm telling you how it all happened and how it was all very

6 quick. I did not notice. I don't know whether that was his primary task

7 or something else was.

8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, when you gave your interview to the investigators

9 of the prosecutor's office on the 27th of July, you also said that the

10 security could have been provided by soldiers as well. Isn't that right?

11 A. If that is what I said, that is correct too, because my son

12 Spomenko was also a soldier, but I don't know whether he was assigned to

13 be there in that capacity.

14 Q. And you never asked your own son whether he was assigned as part

15 of his military duty to guard detainees as they worked on your house?

16 A. I didn't ask him, but when I saw him there, I knew that no one

17 would even say something bad to these people who were working there.

18 Q. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by that statement.

19 A. I cannot explain myself too much because you keep saying that I

20 talk too much, but I was sure when I saw him that nobody would harm these

21 people in any way or mistreat them or even insult them. That is from

22 among the people who were passing down the street, or anything else, for

23 that matter.

24 Q. In effect you're saying that your son Spomenko was guarding these

25 people during their work, and wearing his soldier's uniform; is that

Page 8061

1 right?

2 A. I'm saying maybe.

3 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you have told us that when these Muslim detainees

4 worked on your house, that you and your family treated them well, and

5 actually there is no dispute about that. You've testified, and other

6 people have testified, that you gave them food, cigarettes, and even

7 beer. I'd like to ask you this: Your family was not in a privileged

8 position in Foca, right, in terms of having special access to food and

9 things like that during this time?

10 A. And so other citizens -- that I shared the fate of all the other

11 citizens, that is, of Foca, both in terms of food and any other supplies.

12 There were shortages of everything.

13 Q. Yet you had food that you were able to give away to the workers on

14 your house, right?

15 A. It seems to me that I have said, and if I didn't, I apologise,

16 what - all this was done by sharing from my own resources and things that

17 I got from the countryside, if somebody made a pie and shared it with the

18 workers. And I don't know how much for Muslims. Even if they get a pie

19 even after meat, it is better received than the meat.

20 Q. You also shared beer and brandy with the detainees, right?

21 A. I gave them nothing except cigarettes. But if my wife had any

22 brandy in the house, she brought it to them. But brandy was not the

23 problem, because my brother and my brother-in-law always had a couple of

24 hundred litres of brandy which was homemade, from their own orchard. But

25 there was always brandy to go around of a shot or two. That was not a

Page 8062

1 problem. That was something that every household had to offer to their

2 guests and friends when they came to the house to visit, to pay a visit.

3 Q. You also had beer and that wasn't homemade, was it?

4 A. I don't know. I never brought them beer. Maybe Spomenko did, but

5 if he did, he found it somewhere, whether it was in a store or maybe he

6 got it from a colleague and then shared it with them. That I really don't

7 know, because I never took part in that.

8 Q. And one of the reasons you treated the people working on your

9 house with such hospitality was that you were afraid the house might be

10 cursed if you didn't treat them properly, right? That's what you told the

11 investigators in your interview.

12 A. That is one of the customs. However, the fact that I gave them

13 cigarettes, I wish I had enough cigarettes to share with others, not only

14 with workers but with everybody. Everybody who is a smoker knows what

15 cigarettes is, and one draught of it fills your soul. And no worker

16 should work on an empty stomach in any job, but it is a custom that he

17 shouldn't go on an empty stomach working on a house.

18 Q. While these people were working on your house, it never occurred

19 to you to let them leave your house and wander around or walk around Foca

20 freely for a day, let's say, right?

21 A. You really want to somehow put me down. How am I to give them

22 permission to walk around town? What -- I had nothing to do with that.

23 And now you're trying to tell me that mice are chasing cats rather than

24 cats chasing mice. I cannot understand that you're not trying to follow

25 me, that I had no right to let them go, because I was not the one who was

Page 8063

1 guarding them to begin with.

2 Q. But in other words, while they were working on your house, they

3 were entirely detained and not free to go anywhere else, right? They had

4 no choice to go anywhere else but to work on your house at that moment,

5 right?

6 A. You're asking me too much. If you're not going to understand me,

7 I cannot explain it to you. They were brought there to work, and they had

8 the right to be inside the house and around the house. They didn't have

9 to work all the time. They could take rests. And I wanted to say earlier

10 that in 1980, when the house was being built, I can guarantee there were

11 three workers on it all the time. Sometimes there were four. And that

12 house was covered in two days. And they stayed there for however long

13 they wanted. They stayed five or -- if they stayed ten days, I wouldn't

14 have said anything. And if I came by and saw them sitting, I never asked

15 them, "Why are you sitting? Why aren't you working?" I told them to

16 finish cigarettes, finish coffee.

17 Q. Sir, I think you're still talking about 1980 and the house, the

18 work that was being done in 1980. We don't really need to go into that.

19 Please try to stay focused.

20 You were working at the KP Dom from 7.00 until 3.00 every day,

21 right?

22 A. I was -- when I was in KP Dom, that's how it was always, when I

23 was there.

24 Q. And you saw the staff there and socialised with them freely,

25 right, the guards, the clerks, all the people who were there working?

Page 8064

1 A. I only socialised with the staff that worked in the Drina Economic

2 Unit, and I did not socialise with the guards unless accidentally I met

3 someone either to the metalwork shop or to the mess hall, but that was not

4 socialising.

5 Q. When you accidentally bumped into them, you sometimes talked to

6 them and asked them questions even, right? You told us about an example

7 where you asked one of the guards what was happening regarding exchanges.

8 A. That was only once, because I had heard that an exchange had been

9 conducted. This is what I'm telling you, that I had heard about it, and I

10 asked him, "Can you please tell me how was this exchange done?" And they

11 said, "Milorad, a list was brought, the people were called out, and they

12 went to be exchanged." I said, "Where did they go?" And they said, "I

13 don't know. The soldiers took them." And that was the extent of the

14 conversation.

15 Q. There wasn't any part of the KP Dom that you were not permitted to

16 go into, right, where someone told you, "You, Mr. Krnojelac, are not

17 allowed to go into that part of the KP Dom"?

18 A. I didn't ask anyone whether it was permitted or not, but there was

19 an experience which made me understand that I had no right to have any

20 contact with them.

21 Q. What was that?

22 A. I saw a man on the compound. At that time, I was still in a small

23 office, and I saw him crying. I recognised him. I knocked on the door.

24 He looked up and saw me in the office. I asked the guard to call him

25 over. The guard called him over. We had a cup of coffee and he was

Page 8065













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Page 8066

1 crying, and I said, "What's up? Why are you crying?" He said, "I was

2 late to go to the front and I got gaol." I said, "Look at me. I'm also

3 in gaol, in prison. So let's have coffee." And that was the husband of a

4 relative of mine. Then he left.

5 Fifteen minutes later the phone rang, and the military police

6 said -- and he said -- they said, "Milorad, you have nothing with them.

7 You just let somebody go." I said, "Who did I let go?" They said, "Vojin

8 Radinovic, called Brcina." I said, "If I released him, then come and you

9 can kill me on the spot."

10 I don't know whether they came to check whether he was released,

11 but they didn't come and they didn't kill me. So I was let know that I

12 had no right to have any contact with them.

13 Q. Let's go back to this incident. The man that you saw crying was a

14 Serb soldier, right, who was detained at KP Dom for violation of a

15 military rule?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And when you saw him crying, it was outside your window on the

18 ground floor of the administrative building, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. He wasn't confined in a cell. He was just in the courtyard,

21 right?

22 A. That time he was in the courtyard.

23 Q. And at your request, a guard went to fetch him and bring him past

24 the metal gate, into the administrative building, into your office, right,

25 where you had a cup of coffee with him?

Page 8067

1 A. Not at -- not at my demand, but my request. I begged the guard.

2 Q. That's what I said. At your request, the guard brought the man

3 past the metal gate, into the administrative building, into your office;

4 right? You asked him to do it and he did it.

5 A. I asked him to bring him over to me and he did that. A demand and

6 a request are two different things.

7 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, please listen to me carefully. I've used the word

8 "request," and you're agreeing with me that that's what happened.

9 Now --

10 A. Perhaps it was an interpretation there. Yes, it was, a request,

11 yes.

12 Q. When you spoke to this man and he complained about being in

13 prison, you said to him that you were also in a prison cell?

14 A. Well, I said, "Look, I'm in a prison too. So it's going to be a

15 day or two and then you're going back to the front." And indeed he was

16 there, as far as I know, about three days in detention, and on the fourth,

17 he left, and then, poor thing, he -- next thing, he got killed at the

18 front.

19 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, are you trying to say that there was no difference

20 between someone who was held in a prison against his will, unable to

21 leave, and your position at that time as the warden who went home every

22 night to his family? Are you saying that it was the same thing, just

23 because you were both physically in the prison? They are quite different,

24 right?

25 A. Different situations, yes, but all I wanted to do was to comfort

Page 8068

1 him a little, because I don't know, maybe he had just been detained and

2 then turned loose to go into the courtyard. But I just happened to see

3 him at that moment and I was surprised. And this was a man of 35, 6, who

4 was crying there. I was surprised. Obviously he took it badly. So this

5 is why I told him this, in order to comfort him so that he would feel some

6 relief.

7 Q. And you knew that as a member of the Serb army, if he were

8 detained there, it would just be for a few days, right, and then he'd be

9 released to go to the front line? That was clear to you, because that's

10 what you told him, right?

11 A. I told him that, and I never knew who was there, how much time

12 they got there, because I had no contacts with them afterwards, but I

13 heard later that there were such cases if -- for cases in which people

14 were not responding to call-ups or they had stolen something and killed.

15 People in town talked about such cases.

16 Q. After you comforted this man, was he allowed to leave or was he

17 brought back into the compound?

18 A. Returned to the compound. He was returned to the compound.

19 Q. But you told us that there was a phone call to you that you had

20 released him and you had no right to release him. Or did I mishear that?

21 A. You heard it excellently. Somebody must have reported that

22 Milorad had released Brcina from prison, which is why the police later

23 called me to check, and I said that I did not, and I explained that I did

24 not, and if I attempted to release him, that they could then imprison me

25 or do whatever they wanted with me.

Page 8069

1 Q. So the people who called you were upset because they believed that

2 you had released him and, in fact, you had not, right, this man who was a

3 relative of yours?

4 A. That is exactly right.

5 Q. During this time, your apartment where you were living was in the

6 same building as Mitar Rasevic, right? Dr. Sosevic's apartment?

7 A. The same residential building, residential block, not the same

8 entrance. There were -- this residential block had three entrances. I

9 was the middle one, yeah, yeah, I was the middle one, and his was up from

10 me, the one at the top.

11 Q. Mr. Rasevic also left work at 3.00 every day, right?

12 A. Not always at 3.00. Depended. With him it would happen sometimes

13 that sometimes he would leave at 3.00, but not always at 3.00. I think it

14 depended on the needs of work.

15 Q. But his regular working hours were exactly the same as yours, from

16 7.00 in the morning until 3.00 in the afternoon, right?

17 A. I never asked him about his working hours. Nor did I talk about

18 his working hours.

19 Q. Sorry, you could see him coming to work and you would see him

20 leaving, right?

21 A. I did see him around, but I never asked him about his working

22 hours.

23 Q. Again, listen to the question. I have not asked you whether you

24 asked him about his working hours. I'm just asking you whether you saw

25 him coming and leaving from the KP Dom at about the same time you did.

Page 8070

1 A. I saw him at times, and at times we would arrive to work together.

2 Q. And during the times that you would arrive at work together, you

3 would talk, right, because you were friendly with each other?

4 A. Well, not friendly relations to write home about, but the

5 situation in Foca was such that one always talked about other problems,

6 what's happened, who was killed yesterday, who was killed today, who is

7 being buried, and such like.

8 Q. And you knew that Mitar Rasevic was the commander of the guards at

9 the KP Dom during this time, right?

10 A. Well, it was common knowledge that he had kept the office that he

11 held before the war.

12 Q. In the course of your conversations, you spoke also about things

13 that were happening at the KP Dom, right?

14 A. Believe me, I never talked about these things with him.

15 Q. What was happening at the KP Dom and the work that you each were

16 doing never, ever came up in conversation?

17 A. Believe me, that is so, and if you want to hold me liable for

18 that, then do, but I didn't.

19 Q. Did you make a special effort to avoid talking about KP Dom with

20 Mr. Rasevic, or it just never came up?

21 A. Well, it never came up, because Rasevic is a man who always liked

22 better to talk about nicer things, if there was anything nice to talk

23 about, rather than about anything else, and rather than about work,

24 because that man had worked for a long time. And those personnel of the

25 KP Dom, one had to pull words from their mouths, and I'm not a man who

Page 8071













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Page 8072

1 asks many questions, I'm not inquisitive, because they were all people who

2 do not like to talk about these things. That's what they had learned

3 before the war, and KP Dom is an institution under a part of justice, of

4 the justice system, as a specific type of job. At least that was my

5 conclusion.

6 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you said that Mr. Rasevic preferred to talk about

7 nicer things and yet you told us that the subject of your conversations

8 was always about who was killed and who was buried.

9 A. Well, I said "if there were any nice things to talk about."

10 Perhaps it was not interpreted properly. He preferred to talk about nicer

11 things, if there are any nice things to talk about at Foca, the situation

12 that Foca was in, there were so many people getting killed and the

13 misfortunes that happened from one day to the other.

14 Q. And you never spoke to Mr. Rasevic about the misfortunes befalling

15 the Muslim men detained at the KP Dom, did you? Those weren't among the

16 misfortunes that you discussed with him, right?

17 A. I have to tell you what I personally felt. Of course it was a

18 misfortune for the Muslims, just as it is a misfortune for me now, but we

19 didn't talk.

20 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you knew all three SUP investigators, Vladicic,

21 Starovic, and Koprivica, right, who came to the KP Dom to conduct

22 interrogations?

23 A. I knew them, yes. You could say that I knew them, but that before

24 the war, we heard something or that we -- well, we just only to say hello

25 in the street, "Good morning, Milorad," "Good morning, Voja," and so on.

Page 8073

1 Q. You knew that during this time they were not working for the

2 Defence Ministry but rather for the Ministry of the Interior, right, the

3 civilian police?

4 A. Who they worked for, I claim under full responsibility that I do

5 not know, but be that as it may, they interrogated the detainees. Who had

6 assigned them to that I do not know.

7 Q. They wore civilian clothes, not military uniforms, right?

8 A. Never paid attention. I think it was civilian. I think it was

9 civilian, as far as I can remember. I think it was civilian uniform.

10 Q. They also worked approximately the same hours as you, right, from

11 7.00 until 3.00 every week day?

12 A. Well, I believe so because prior to the armed conflict, the police

13 station also worked from 7.00 to 3.00 and that is why I think they had the

14 same working hours.

15 Q. And sometimes actually you left the KP Dom to go home with them,

16 right? You left the KP Dom at about the same time to go to your

17 respective homes?

18 A. Well, since we would walk in the same direction to get home, yes,

19 it did happen, but not all that often.

20 Q. And during those times, you talked about what was happening at the

21 KP Dom, or you also didn't talk to them at all about that?

22 A. Well, as they were never particularly keen on talking about it,

23 then I never discussed anything special about them in that regard.

24 Q. Do you mean that you asked them questions about what they were

25 doing and they refused to tell you?

Page 8074

1 A. No. I didn't even ask the questions because I knew they wouldn't

2 answer them, because inspectors are people of that kind, they will never

3 tell anyone about what they do except to their superiors.

4 Q. The rooms they used for interrogations were right below the large

5 warden's office which you eventually moved into, right?

6 A. Then why do you say, don't you, when they were not there, because

7 excuse me, didn't I tell you nicely the room below my office, that is the

8 warden's office, that there was -- that there was the accounting

9 department of the Drina Economic Unit.

10 Q. Where was the room or the rooms, then, where the interrogations

11 were conducted by these three inspectors?

12 A. On the same floor as the accounting department except on the other

13 side of the staircase, to the right -- to the left, excuse me. And to the

14 right, to the right, was the administrative staff. But that was sometime

15 -- perhaps they stayed after the document that was issued, they may have

16 stayed for a day or two more, and then they also moved to the guard

17 building.

18 Q. I'm sorry, what document are you referring to?

19 A. Why, the document that exists that -- about the accommodation, for

20 the accommodation of both of the detained persons, issued to the army.

21 That's what I'm talking about, in May.

22 Q. So, Mr. Krnojelac, you're saying that these inspectors used the

23 office just on the floor below the large warden's office, up until a few

24 days after the -- after May 10th, right, the date of the document when the

25 military took over a part of the KP Dom?

Page 8075

1 A. I do not -- I don't know the exact date but I repeat, not below

2 the warden's office because it is the administrative office where

3 administrative staff worked. This is a large office. But next to them,

4 to the left, in the same passage.

5 Q. I'd like to show you the diagram, but I'd like to know what floor

6 you're referring to so I can show you the proper diagram.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Which diagram, Mr. Smith's or the floor plan?

8 MS. KUO: The floor plan, but the floor plan is divided by floors,

9 so in order to give him the right version, I need to know what floor he's

10 talking about.

11 A. It is the first floor because at the ground floor where I worked,

12 through the passage. That is the ground floor. And then comes the first

13 floor, which is the administrative office.

14 MS. KUO:

15 Q. So now I will show you Exhibit 6/2, and this shows the first floor

16 above the ground floor.

17 MS. KUO: Could the usher move the diagram just slightly up so

18 that we can see the bottom of it and then maybe slightly to the right.

19 Yes. Thank you.

20 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, could you please indicate on this diagram which is

21 the floor that you've told us, which rooms the inspectors were using at

22 the beginning.

23 A. This is -- excuse me. I looked at this drawing for a very long

24 time. We always said that it was a poor drawing, and then it will be very

25 difficult for me to find my way around, just as many others who had to use

Page 8076

1 it had difficulties.

2 Now, where is it exactly, I do not know. This is not the

3 staircase to the upper floor of the administrative building. This is the

4 staircase which is outside the administrative building, what I'm pointing

5 at now, if you can see that. This is not the staircase leading into the

6 administrative building.

7 And now I may be wrong, whatever I say, but be that as it may, on

8 this level where there is the accounting office, somewhere here, I don't

9 know exactly, but their offices were somewhere here, somewhere in this

10 part, but now I don't know where the staircase is.

11 MS. KUO: Let the record reflect that the witness is indicating as

12 the place where the accounting office is an approximate area over the word

13 "Zgrada." The word "Zgrada." Thank you.

14 Q. Could you now show us where the rooms were that the inspectors

15 used?

16 A. I do not know which rooms they used. They simply moved it into

17 this other building where the guard is, and --

18 Q. I'm not asking you about the room they moved into.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think we have a

21 problem with interpretation, because the witness has just shown where it

22 shows "Zgrada" with two rooms, and he said that he thinks that these are

23 the rooms that were used by the inspectors. I do not know what kind of

24 interpretation reached you and my learned friend, because he already

25 explained what he had been showing, and he was pointing at the rooms used

Page 8077













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Page 8078

1 by the inspectors. I think that our colleague who knows the language

2 confirmed that it has already been explained.

3 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I had understood that it was being used by

4 the accounting and, therefore, not by the inspectors, but if in fact it

5 was the room used by the inspectors and later by accounting, I can -- I

6 stand corrected on that.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I hope it's clear to you, Ms. Kuo, because it's

8 certainly not clear to me.

9 MS. KUO: Okay. I'll ask it again then.

10 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you showed the rooms where the word "Zgrada" is on

11 this diagram, and you described them as being where the accounting office

12 was. And my question to you was: Where were the offices that the

13 inspectors used? Were those the same offices that the inspectors used at

14 the beginning, before they were moved?

15 A. At the beginning, somewhere here, one of those, but I don't know

16 exactly which.

17 Q. And according to your testimony, and again please correct me if

18 I've misunderstood it, about a day or two after the document which showed

19 that the military was allowed to take over a part of the KP Dom, the

20 inspectors moved from those offices to another office or another building,

21 right?

22 A. Whether it was one day or two days later or seven days, don't hold

23 me to it, but then from these rooms, they moved to the guard building. I

24 do not know which rooms.

25 MS. KUO: And the witness is now showing the building and the

Page 8079

1 series of rooms which would be to the left of the entrance as you come

2 into the KP Dom. So the other wing, so to speak, of the administrative

3 building, sometimes referred to as a different building, sometimes

4 referred to as a different wing, but in any event, to the left side rather

5 than the right side as you come into the KP Dom.

6 Q. And you've called it the guard building. Why do you call it the

7 guard building? Was that the name of it?

8 A. No, no, no. That was its earlier name, too, the guard building,

9 the guard building. That name stayed on.

10 Q. Was that guard building taken over by the military?

11 A. Well, the guards kept it for themselves, and it continued to be

12 like this part here which was let out for detainees.

13 Q. The guard building that you've pointed out consisted of different

14 rooms, right? Were all those rooms being used by guards?

15 A. Believe me that I do not know.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. KUO: We don't need this diagram any more.

18 Q. Nobody ever told you that you were not allowed to go into that

19 building, the guard building, right?

20 A. I had enough work of my own so that I had no need either to ask or

21 go there.

22 Q. You told us at the very beginning, when you first arrived at the

23 KP Dom on the 18th of April, 1992, that you spent the night there. Did

24 you spend the night inside the censorship office?

25 A. I've already answered this question several times, that I stayed

Page 8080

1 in the same room where the censorship had been.

2 Q. Was there a bed or did you sleep in a chair or on the floor?

3 A. There was an old armchair next to the table, and I spent the night

4 in that armchair.

5 Q. Sir, while we're talking about furniture, when you moved upstairs

6 to the warden's office, there was -- there were also armchairs or sofas

7 there, right?

8 A. When I moved office and when our colleagues cleaned it, there

9 wasn't a single sofa nor was there one afterwards. Chairs, yes, there

10 were upholstered chairs, straight-back. There was a desk with a chair,

11 and around the other table, which was larger, there were six more chairs

12 identical with the other one. And there was a small table with two small

13 armchairs. That's all. Oh, no. There was a till, and that till had been

14 broken into. And when Mr. Zoran came, he said, "Why didn't you throw it

15 out? Why hasn't it been repaired?" And I said, "I did not have any

16 workers strong enough to carry it out. So let it be. I don't mind." And

17 there was no couch or a cot in the office.

18 Q. When you said "Mr. Zoran," who did you mean?

19 A. I meant Mr. Zoran Sekulovic, who came --

20 Q. Yes, go on.

21 A. I mustn't.

22 Q. When Mr. Zoran Sekulovic came and made this comment, this was

23 already at the time when he was appointed to be the warden, right, in

24 1993?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8081

1 Q. So this discussion, this conversation took place at the time when

2 you were leaving as warden and he was coming in, right? And you were

3 showing him around the office so he could take over, right?

4 A. Not the office. The conversation had to do with the till, with

5 the safe box, with the metal box, metal cupboard which could be locked and

6 things were kept in it. And that safe box had been broken and it was just

7 in that office. It had been broken before I came there.

8 Q. What I'm saying is that this conversation about the safe box

9 occurred at the time when Zoran Sekulovic was taking over as the new

10 warden in 1993, and you were helping him with the transition, right?

11 That's why you even had this discussion, because you were in the office,

12 he saw the safe box, and he asked you why it was still there, right?

13 A. Yes. He came, yes. He had already arrived. Because from the

14 1st of July, I was only preparing to hand over the duty, because I knew

15 that other people would come. I had been notified about that.

16 Q. Do you remember when this was, when Mr. Sekulovic came?

17 A. Oh, sometime in late July or -- in July, late July, as far as I

18 can remember, roughly. After all these years, I can't remember

19 everything, naturally.

20 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the Prosecution draws the Court's

21 attention to Exhibit P3, item 129, which is Zoran Sekulovic, showing his

22 beginning date as the 9th of August, 1993.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

24 MS. KUO:

25 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you told the investigators of the OTP that you

Page 8082

1 never spent a night at the KP Dom except on one occasion when you stayed

2 to make sure that the city bakery or the bakery in the KP Dom could be

3 functional, right?

4 A. Please, I do not know how different people understood me. I

5 didn't spend that night. I spent the night between the 18th and the

6 19th. And that night I didn't spend that whole night in the KP Dom. I

7 stayed on in the evening until -- well, I can't say exactly, whether it

8 was 9.00, but I stayed in the afternoon so as to reassure myself, that is,

9 to enable Mr. Relja, who was responsible for maintenance, if he needed

10 perhaps some part from the central depot, because I said that the chief of

11 the central depot had left the keys sealed in an envelope. I think we

12 talked about it yesterday. He had left them with me so that if the need

13 arose it could be opened, but only in the presence of other people and to

14 write the record of how and when the door was unlocked and what had been

15 taken out, but that was not staying the night. It wasn't the whole

16 night. I don't know how you could understand that. And I think that when

17 all this was over, it was not dark yet.

18 Q. So it was possible for you to stay afterhours at the KP Dom if

19 work needed to be done, right? There was nobody who would say, "Sir, your

20 working hours are over, you must leave." It was permitted when necessary,

21 right?

22 A. Well, the manager of some economic unit, not being allowed to stay

23 on, but my work never necessitated that. I stayed on that other occasion

24 because of this other business, because of the bakery, to see that it was

25 fixed so that the next day, bread could be baked for these -- for the

Page 8083













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Page 8084

1 citizenry, for the KP Dom and then everyone else, because then Mr. Sipcic

2 came and the head of the bakery, and Relja said that he'd manage to repair

3 it if he could find all the necessary parts, and he did succeed.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, I'm not sure whether that is going

5 to look very sensible in the transcript. I gathered that the witness was

6 being sarcastic or perhaps - I don't mean that in any sinister sense - in

7 the first sentence.

8 MS. KUO: Yes.

9 JUDGE HUNT: In other words, he is allowed to stay on. He was

10 saying in effect, how could you possibly suggest that he would not be

11 allowed to stay on. That's the way I interpreted the way it was said.

12 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HUNT: As long as we are agreed on what it means.

14 MS. KUO: Yes, I think we could gather that from the phrasing and

15 the intonation but let me double check with the witness.

16 Q. When you made the phrase in answer to my question, "Well, the

17 manager of some economic unit not being allowed to stay on," we understood

18 that to mean it would have been surprising had you not been allowed to

19 stay on. So in fact the answer was, yes, you were, as manager of the

20 economic unit, allowed to stay on, right? I just want to be clear about

21 it because when it's written down it doesn't have your voice intonation so

22 it may not be clear.

23 A. That evening, I had to stay, and I did not stay on any other

24 occasion, nor was there any need for me to stay.

25 Q. That's not the question. We are just trying to clarify something

Page 8085













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Page 8086

1 you said, just so we know exactly what you meant, so we don't have a

2 misunderstanding. You were allowed, as the manager of an economic unit,

3 to stay after hours whenever your work required it, right?

4 A. [No translation].

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I don't know what the witness said but it could

6 have been answered "yes" or "no." We got no translation.

7 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, I am very sorry, Your Honour. The

8 answer was: I never stayed because there was no need in the economic unit

9 to stay overtime. My working hours from were from 7.00 to 1500. On that

10 particular occasion, I stayed because there were those keys and they had

11 to be handed over.

12 JUDGE HUNT: The question, Mr. Krnojelac - and I'm sorry to put it

13 to you directly but would you please give a direct answer - if you had

14 needed to, you would have been permitted to stay on, would you not?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was never confronted with

16 such a situation so I do not know if I would be allowed or not, whether

17 the army would have allowed me that. But on that occasion I stayed. But

18 on other occasions, there was no need for me to stay on and so I didn't.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I think that's about the best we can get.

20 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HUNT: It is the end of the week. I remind you that we are

22 resuming at 9.30 on Monday, not as previously announced at 11.30. Have a

23 pleasant weekend. We shall see you on Monday.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25 4.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday the 2nd day

Page 8087

1 of July, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.