Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8088

1 Monday, 2 July 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

7 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

9 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]

13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krnojelac.

14 A. Good morning.

15 MS. KUO: Could I ask the usher to move the ELMO either forward or

16 back so that it's not in the way. Thank you.

17 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, last week just before the break, we were talking

18 about the one night or the one evening when you stayed late at the KP Dom,

19 and you said it was to get the bakery started. You remember that; right?

20 A. I remember that we were talking about that, yes.

21 Q. And when you testified to this event in your direct examination,

22 you said that it was in late May of 1992; is that right?

23 A. I think that is right. It is most probably right, late May 1992.

24 Q. When you gave an interview to the investigators of the

25 Prosecutor's office on the first day, that is the 5th of June, 2000, you

Page 8089

1 told them that night or that evening when you stayed late was most

2 probably around the end of June, beginning of July. Do you remember

3 saying that?

4 A. I do not remember saying that. However, since that certainly

5 happened earlier, because there was no electricity in May, this was

6 probably an error in dates, because this certainly happened much earlier,

7 before the tragedy in my family took place. So that's why it was probably

8 the end of May.

9 Q. But, sir, you knew about that connection with the time even in

10 June of last year when you talked to the investigators, and yet you said

11 it was in June, possibly July. You've changed the date, haven't you?

12 A. I did not change it on purpose, for sure, but it is possible that

13 I made a mistake.

14 Q. You talked about how the -- you stayed until 9.00, because that's

15 when the bakers were baking the bread. Isn't it true that the bakers,

16 when they came, came much later?

17 According to the city baker himself, they came at 3.00 in the

18 morning whenever they had to bake bread, not 9.00.

19 A. Please, first of all, the bakery had to be started up. Then if

20 I'm not mistaken, at least 12 hours were required for the bakery to get

21 going, because it uses solid fuel, wood. Then it is only after 12 hours

22 that the bakery could be used; that is to say, that is when bread could

23 actually be baked, because that is the furnace that requires more time to

24 attain a certain temperature in order to make it possible for bread to be

25 baked.

Page 8090

1 As soon as Relja said that he didn't need any material from the

2 central warehouse, because you may recall that I said because of those

3 keys I stayed back anyway, he stayed on to finish some minor details and

4 also to get the fire started in the furnace in the bakery.

5 I hope you will understand what I'm saying. This is a furnace

6 that is fired by solid fuel, firewood, that is.

7 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you often met with Muslim detainees upon their

8 request; right?

9 A. I cannot say that that was often. If I met a few people, with a

10 person perhaps once, with somebody else perhaps two or three times, I

11 wouldn't call that often. Because when I say "often," I would imply doing

12 something several times during the course of one day, so I wouldn't call

13 it often. I don't know how people understand this word "often."

14 Q. According to your words in your interview with the Office of the

15 Prosecutor last year, you said, "I would habitually meet with more

16 prominent people in town who were detained at the KP Dom."

17 A. Well, for me, prominent people are doctors, teachers, and any

18 well-intentioned person, any person of goodwill and good intentions.

19 Q. My emphasis was on the word "habitually." You met perhaps not

20 often but habitually; right?

21 A. Well, what happened, happened. Perhaps I used that word

22 "habitually," because these people who were detained, it depended on

23 whether they were allowed all these things by the guards and by the guard

24 on duty at the entrance desk, whether they would allow them whatever. So

25 whoever was allowed by the guard on duty to come, and if he asked me

Page 8091

1 whether I would see him, I did not refuse to see anyone, regardless of who

2 asked to see me.

3 Q. So the procedure for a detainee to see you was that the request

4 would be made through the guards, and then the guards would ask you if you

5 would meet with them; right?

6 A. If the guard would come and tell me, "Milorad, can you see

7 such-and-such a person?" I would say yes, and then he would bring that

8 person who he had mentioned to me and then I would briefly talk to that

9 person. If there was coffee, then we would have a coffee and a

10 cigarette. These were not long conversations. It would be about as long

11 as it takes to smoke a cigarette, and you can smoke a cigarette in, say,

12 five to ten minutes, not more than that.

13 Q. These were not strictly social calls, were they? When people

14 asked to see you, it wasn't always in your personal capacity as a friend

15 or an acquaintance; often they asked to see you -- or most of the time

16 they asked to see you because you were the warden. Right?

17 A. I think, though, that it wasn't all because of that, although

18 there is some of that as well. They wanted to come and see me primarily

19 so that some of them who were coming for the first time would ask me

20 whether I knew what their situation was, and it also happened that they

21 would ask for toiletries that they needed, if there weren't any. And it

22 wasn't any special kind of socialising or long conversations. It's not

23 because they knew I was warden, because every one of them who came to see

24 me, I assert to you here from this stand, that I told them all the truth,

25 that I was warden in charge of the economic part. They knew that this was

Page 8092

1 rented out to the military and they knew that it was the military that was

2 in charge of them, the military command. I did not conceal that from

3 them, never, not from a single one of them.

4 Q. So the people, the detainees who came to see you, came to ask you

5 for help; right?

6 A. Well, usually help. As I told you, those who would come for the

7 first time would ask me whether I knew what their fate was.

8 Q. Among the people whom you met with were [redacted]

9 [redacted], Husein Lojo, Safet Avdic, RJ, and Dr. Avdo Softalija; right? These

10 were some of the prominent members of the community whom you met with.

11 A. Please, I do not remember that all these people came to see me. I

12 don't remember that Mr. Safet Avdic came to see me, and I don't remember

13 this other doctor that you mentioned. Softalija did you say?

14 Q. The chief of the medical centre in Foca, the person that we

15 discussed earlier. Sadinlija. I'm sorry. I mispronounced it.

16 A. Sadinlija. Dr. Sadinlija. Oh, Dr. Sadinlija, yes. He was at the

17 health centre. He was not at the hospital. During those first days, he

18 came to see me at the office. I think it was the end of April, or rather,

19 in the month of April. The first conversation I had was precisely with

20 Mr. Sadinlija. He asked to speak with me.

21 Q. You also met with [redacted],

22 who was a prominent Muslim politician; right?

23 A. I don't remember that encounter. I personally think that I did

24 not meet with them.

25 Q. You also met with three members of the Cengic family, right,

Page 8093

1 before their release? They were related to the assembly deputy Muhamed

2 Cengic, from Miljevina.

3 A. Please, it seems to me that we discussed that. That meeting was

4 when the commander of the Tactical Group came, and when he said that he

5 would like to have a meeting in my office with three men, three men who

6 were supposed to be released. I think that we discussed that and I

7 explained that. However, if necessary, I can explain this same situation

8 once again as to how this happened and that they were taken to Belgrade,

9 in the words of the commander. Whether they were actually taken or not, I

10 don't know.

11 Q. The Commander of the Tactical Group, Marko Kovac, came to you and

12 asked if he could finish a job here and if you could have those three

13 detainees brought to him; isn't that right?

14 A. Please don't do that. He said to me, "Milorad, can I have a

15 meeting with three detained persons who are supposed to be released and

16 sent to Belgrade?" In the meantime, these three persons had already come

17 to my office, and a moment before that, I had ordered coffee. And then

18 when they had their meeting, their conversation, I left. I really don't

19 know what they discussed, believe me.

20 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, on the 6th of June, 2000, during your interview

21 with investigators of the Prosecutor's office, you gave the following

22 description of that meeting, and I'm reading from the English, page 31:

23 "One morning, the commander of the Tactical Group came to my office,

24 greeted me, and asked me, `Milorad, can I do something here, finish a job

25 here?' I said, `Yes, you can. What is it about?' He said,`I would need

Page 8094












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Page 8095

1 three detainees to come here.' Of course I approved it, and these three

2 detainees were brought to my office later."

3 That's how you described that; right?

4 A. I don't see any difference. The meaning of what I said then and

5 now is the same, although I perhaps have not used the same words. It's

6 logical that I cannot remember it all word for word, but I think that the

7 meaning is the same, and my answer is, therefore, the same now as well.

8 Q. The Commander of the Tactical Group, Marko Kovac, came to you to

9 ask you if he could finish a job there and you said yes; right?

10 A. What else could I have said? I said yes.

11 Q. And when he asked specifically for three Muslim detainees to be

12 brought to your office, you approved it; right?

13 A. Please, he did not ask for that from my office. I assume - this

14 is the most probable option - he told somebody before hand, either the

15 guard on duty or some other person, that these men should be brought

16 there. It was not that he said from my office where they should be

17 brought, or he didn't inform anyone from my office. That means that he

18 had agreed with someone, as he was entering the building of the KP Dom,

19 probably the duty officer or someone else - I don't know to whom - but

20 people -- these men were brought to him to my office.

21 Q. These men were brought to your office only because you approved

22 it, not because anybody made any arrangements beforehand; right?

23 According to your own description, that was the way things happened.

24 A. In my personal opinion, when I say that he had agreed upon

25 something beforehand, that meant that he agreed with the guard on duty

Page 8096

1 where these people should be brought to him, and they were brought to see

2 him in that office, and I did not refuse him. I did not say that he could

3 not talk to these people in this office, because that's a biggish office.

4 Not biggish. It's a pretty big office where four or five people can sit

5 at a table and have a meeting, a conversation.

6 I don't know what they discussed, but I was just told that they

7 were supposed to be released and driven to Belgrade. To who, where, I

8 don't know.

9 Q. According to your description, there was never any mention of any

10 arrangements being made beforehand, and there was also no description of

11 him ordering you to do anything. He came to ask you permission and you

12 gave it to him; isn't that right?

13 A. He never gave me any orders. He never came before. He only came

14 that morning.

15 Q. Let's go back to the meetings that you had with the other

16 detainees. You have told investigators of the Prosecutor that you ate

17 fresh and healthy food when you were working at the KP Dom; right?

18 A. I think that everybody ate fresh and healthy food, because in the

19 warehouses, not too much food was ever stockpiled, so it could not be old

20 or past its expiry date. I never felt any consequences as a result of the

21 fact that I ate that food, so I consider it to be healthy and fresh. And

22 that is very important for the human organism, for food to be healthy and

23 fresh, in my opinion.

24 Q. But you knew, from what the detainees were telling you, that they

25 did not receive enough food to eat; right?

Page 8097

1 A. Oh, please, don't. I keep saying that no one ever told me that

2 they were not receiving enough food to eat.

3 Q. Isn't it true that [redacted] told you that there should be the

4 food -- the leftover food should be given to the detainees? And as a

5 doctor, he said the food wouldn't spoil, but that they didn't have enough

6 food, so they were willing to eat even leftovers. Isn't that right?

7 A. We have to understand two things here. During the first days,

8 detained persons got food from the kitchen of the military that was at

9 Livade, and of course, it might have happened - I did not see it

10 happen - that food that was not eaten was thrown out of the containers

11 that it was brought in.

12 However, I never heard of any surplus food from our kitchen being

13 thrown away, and I did not hear from any detainee that he had too little

14 food, because three meals is three meals, after all.

15 I cannot assert this, and I was not in charge of monitoring that,

16 but it is possible that perhaps there was not always enough, perhaps, but

17 none of the detained persons complained that they did not get enough

18 food.

19 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, on the 6th of June, 2000, during your interview

20 with investigators - this is on page 35 in the English version of

21 Exhibit P46 - you stated: "On one occasion [redacted] said that the food

22 should not be thrown away, that it should be preserved for the following

23 day. I replied, `Doctor, if the food is preserved for the following day,

24 it's going to rot. It's going to be spoiled, and one should not give such

25 rotten, spoiled food for people to eat.' And he said, `It won't hurt

Page 8098

1 them.'"

2 A. Since the days were hot and freezers and refrigerators were not

3 working, that is correct, from my point of view, that the food would

4 spoil. But I told you, most probably, because afterwards, never. When

5 the kitchen started working within the compound of the KP Dom, no one ever

6 told me that food was thrown away when they brought it from Livade, from

7 the kitchen where they did the cooking for the army as well, because

8 during the first days, I cannot state with certainty, but until the

9 kitchen started working at the KP Dom, food was brought from Livade where

10 it was prepared for the military as well, and that is where the command of

11 the rear was too. That is this area called Livade. That is where these

12 warehouses are, too, where the food was kept.

13 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, wasn't it obvious to you, based on the conversation

14 that you had with [redacted], that the detainees did not have enough food

15 to eat and that's why he was asking that food be kept for the following

16 day? Wasn't that the only conclusion you could draw from that kind of

17 request?

18 A. I could not conclude that it was that way. My conclusion was,

19 rather, that he wanted it to be used economically so that there would be

20 no waste, so that food would be used economically. Not that somebody did

21 not have enough food, because I cannot imagine that somebody was that

22 inhuman not to give people food and to spill it, on the other hand, to

23 throw it away. Because I thought that they did not feel it necessary to

24 use all that food and that perhaps that's why it was thrown away, although

25 I didn't know about it. I can't say now that the doctor did not say the

Page 8099

1 truth, but I must say that I heard a lot of things when he appeared here

2 that caused great concern, in my opinion, if I may say so.

3 Q. Isn't it true that during this interview when you told the

4 investigators what I just quoted, the question that was asked of you was:

5 Did [redacted] complain about the food? And that was the answer that you

6 gave. It wasn't whether you had any discussions about food management or

7 the use of resources, but it was about whether he complained about the

8 food, and in fact the conversation you had was him complaining about the

9 food; isn't that right?

10 A. That's right. And he said that it should not be thrown away. But

11 my conclusion was in that sense, that he wanted, from the point of view of

12 good husbandry, that no food should be thrown away. That's how everybody

13 should think. And perhaps the food had already gone bad, because if it

14 had stayed in that kind of dish overnight, that was closed in these dishes

15 where it was brought, perhaps it could have gone a bit sour. And most

16 probably the cooks came to the conclusion that this food should be thrown

17 away rather than given to people which could have caused a disease or

18 something, and I think that that would have been a far greater misfortune

19 if somebody got dysentery or some other kind of abdominal ailment.

20 Nowadays also I throw away food that I'm not sure about. It's better to

21 throw it away than to risk something. If you see that it's not tasty,

22 it's better to eat plain bread than to eat other things as well and then

23 get an upset stomach and get sick.

24 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, when you met with your former colleague, RJ, in

25 your office, he asked for food that you had left over in your office;

Page 8100












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Page 8101

1 right? He asked for it to be taken back to his room so he could eat it;

2 right?

3 A. Believe me, I'm not aware of that at all, and I'm so surprised

4 that my colleague said that. I do not remember something like that at

5 all, that something like that had happened and that he had asked for that,

6 because I personally think that had he asked me for that, that I would

7 have obtained some tinned food through the warehouse keeper for my

8 colleague. I simply can't believe this. Why did my colleague say that?

9 Well, let it be. That is his affair. But I really cannot remember that

10 that took place, nor do I remember any such thing.

11 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you never saw Muslims walking around in the yard

12 for exercise; right? The only time they were in the yard was going to and

13 from the canteen for meals; isn't that right?

14 A. I have to tell you that at times I did, but it was very seldom

15 that I saw them going for a meal. The rest, I never even looked at that

16 yard except when passing by on my way to the furniture factory - and that

17 was very seldom - and the dining-room. And through the window -- I didn't

18 look through the window into the yard. Very seldom. No, I can't remember

19 ever casting a deliberate look, unless it was as I would be standing up

20 and then I just cast a glimpse. But yes, they could walk around without

21 my seeing them, because my office overviews the facilities where they are

22 accommodated rather than the playground beyond the dining-room and towards

23 the furniture factory. So perhaps it did happen that I had a look at

24 these facilities, accommodation facilities, but not that I walked to my

25 window to look through it with a purpose in mind deliberately, because

Page 8102

1 that is the position of the windows in the room, so that they could walk

2 without my seeing them.

3 Q. So in other words, your windows from the warden's office faced

4 directly onto the prisoners' quarters rather than the yard; right?

5 A. Especially where there was this desk. Yes, precisely. That is

6 how you could see, from that desk. And that is the central part of the

7 building, not that one more to the left which is, I think, building number

8 1 on your sketches or what. But that is the building where the clinic was

9 there. It couldn't be seen from my window, through that window which was

10 next to the desk, as far as I can remember the arrangement of the view.

11 Q. And just so we're clear about what the view was from the warden's

12 office, I'd like to have you shown Exhibit 6/2, P6/2.

13 MS. KUO: I'm sorry. I think I made a mistake. The warden's

14 office, because it's on the second floor, it should be 6/3.

15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, could you show us -- you've given us a description

16 now of what you could see from your office. Could you show us now what

17 you could see, just so we're very clear about that?

18 A. This is -- no. I thought you were showing something to me. I

19 think that this is my office, my office, where the pointer is now.

20 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I understand that at one point you had an office on

21 the ground floor and then you moved -- in the early days, and then you

22 moved upstairs to the warden's office on the second floor. The place

23 you're pointing to now, is that the ground floor office or the second

24 floor office? I know this is a floor plan for the second floor, but I

25 want to be clear about the location of the office you're talking about.

Page 8103

1 A. I'm pointing this thing that you have given me, that is, the

2 ground floor of the second floor [as interpreted]. Do you agree or will

3 you give me another ground plan? But I can also explain on this one. I

4 can explain the first office and the second office with this plan. The

5 first office is on the ground floor, where, according to others, was the

6 censorship, and the second office, the second warden's office, was on the

7 second floor of the administrative building. And you told me that this is

8 the second floor. So my office -- my office in the administrative

9 building is this one here. And the desk was here, in this part, next to

10 this wall, the desk.

11 MS. KUO: I'll just describe this for the record. The witness is

12 pointing to -- it would be the far left side of the right-hand wing of

13 that office. So if you come into the KP Dom, it's directly to the right

14 of the entrance but on the second floor.

15 JUDGE HUNT: It's also the room that almost every other witness in

16 the place has identified as the warden's office. I think we can move on

17 from this point.

18 MS. KUO: I'd like to have the record reflect that the place where

19 the desk is indicated by this witness is precisely that wall on the

20 extreme left-hand side of the room.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Krnojelac, could you show us what your visibility was

22 from that room if you look out the window?

23 A. Well, that is what I'm saying, that this building, this guard

24 building, protrudes slightly, and somehow during the construction it

25 penetrated the yard, so that I couldn't see this part from my office,

Page 8104

1 especially this part here, from this office that I had. That is, I could

2 see something in this direction.

3 MS. KUO: The witness, when he said that he could not see, he

4 pointed in the direction of what's been indicated as Room 13, but what he

5 could see was more in the direction of Room 14.

6 Q. Yes?

7 A. If you will allow me, please, to add just that it depends whether

8 I sat down or stood up. If I sat at the desk, then I couldn't see

9 anything, because this view was obstructed because of what is below the

10 window, and one could not see anything from the sitting position. And it

11 was only if I had stood up and was upright that I could see it, but not

12 this part that I showed you before. So you must understand me. It

13 depends on whether I was sitting down or whether I was in an upright

14 position.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krnojelac. And isn't it true that from one of the

16 windows in that warden's office there was the barrel of a machine-gun that

17 pointed out precisely over the prisoners' quarters, and this was the

18 machine-gun gun that RJ asked you about when he visited your office, and

19 you told him that it was only a barrel but it was there to scare the

20 detainees? Isn't that right?

21 A. I say under full responsibility that there was absolutely no pipe

22 and nobody ever asked me about it. There was no barrel, when I was

23 asked. But when he laughed, I decided by his laughter, I decided that he

24 had made it up or that somebody had made him say that, because I don't

25 believe it. But I am affirming that there was no barrel.

Page 8105

1 MS. KUO: Thank you. We don't need this diagram any more.

2 Q. Are you saying that RJ made the comment about the machine-gun but

3 there was no machine-gun even when he talked about it, that he just

4 randomly made a comment that there was a machine-gun?

5 A. Come out of the question. Machine-guns, or any barrels. There

6 was no barrel. I guarantee that. Nothing like that in my office, but if

7 I made add, this censorship, that is the first office, my view was even

8 more obstructed there. My view was even more obstructed from the

9 censorship office. Because you mentioned which room it was about, and I'm

10 explaining it. From the censorship even less, because of the window and

11 because of the device which was next to the window and because of another

12 window, the -- my field of vision was even smaller.

13 Q. Are you saying, when you talked about RJ, that he did make a

14 comment about the machine-gun and then laughed about it?

15 A. During his presentation, when I watched him, that was my

16 impression and my conclusion, but I'm saying that it was not in the

17 office, and I do say it under full responsibility.

18 Q. My question to you, Mr. Krnojelac is: Did RJ make a comment about

19 the machine-gun when he was in your office?

20 A. No, no, no. No, no. There was no conversation about that.

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, during the winter between 1992 and 1993, there was

22 no heating in the prisoners' quarters of the KP Dom; isn't that right?

23 A. If you mean the area where the detainees were accommodated, what

24 I'm saying is that from time to time, I would see smoke coming out of the

25 chimney. Now, what rooms did the smoke come from, do I not know, but

Page 8106












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Page 8107

1 there was smoke coming out of the chimney.

2 Q. And was this smoke from wood burning? Is that what you mean?

3 A. Yes, yes, yes, in furnaces using firewood, like the one that

4 existed in my administrative building. There was this stove, and we used

5 firewood for it.

6 Q. There were some -- there was one room in the prisoners' quarters

7 that was used for convicted Serb prisoners; right?

8 A. The distribution of those quarters for people serving the

9 sentences pronounced on them before the conflict, if you mean those

10 persons, yes, there was this room, but I do not know exactly which,

11 because I've never been there, as I have already said.

12 Q. You were in charge, you told us, of those people serving their

13 sentences, and you're telling us that you never visited them in their room

14 to see how they were accommodated?

15 A. No, I never went to visit them, because they had others. As I

16 said, late Novica had assumed full responsibility. After that, he tasked

17 the Rehabilitating Officer Zecevic, so that I didn't. And those who came

18 now and then to use alcohol, because I said, and I think you understand

19 when I say that at the farm, it was a semi-open institution. There was

20 alcohol, so -- yes. I'm sorry.

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, the question was not about the farm. We've talked

22 about the farm. My question was about the KP Dom compound and about the

23 people serving their sentences who were housed in the KP Dom.

24 You were in charge of those people; right? Not Mr. Mujovic and

25 Mr. Zecevic who were in charge at the farm. You were responsible,

Page 8108

1 according to your own words, for those people serving sentences, and so

2 you were responsible for those people serving sentences who were indeed

3 housed at the KP Dom; right?

4 A. Yes, except that another person was responsible for them, for

5 those who were either in KP Dom. It was Mr. Lazo Divljan who was

6 responsible for them, and he used them for work.

7 Q. You were, nevertheless, responsible for their welfare, right, to

8 make sure that they had enough to eat, that they were kept warm, that they

9 were treated humanely. That was still your responsibility; right?

10 A. Right. But nobody -- none of them ever complained to me about

11 having take a bath, about not having heating or food like everybody else

12 accommodated in the KP Dom.

13 Q. You put in measures to make sure that they had enough to eat and

14 that they were kept warm and that they could be treated humanely; right?

15 A. Well, I did not take any special measures, because I'd already

16 said in the beginning, but I was a teacher and I knew a little about it.

17 And it was people who had spent some time in the KP Dom who would know

18 these things, and they simply came to meet me halfway because of all the

19 circumstances and all my troubles, and they just came to help me in that

20 situation.

21 Q. The prisoners serving their sentences had access to television and

22 radio, right, while they were detained or imprisoned?

23 A. If you mean this period of time that I was there, I wouldn't know

24 about that.

25 Q. Yet Husein Lojo, a Muslim teacher who came and spoke with you,

Page 8109

1 asked you for TV and radio, and you said you couldn't provide it to him;

2 right?

3 A. I did not say that I could provide it for him. Excuse me. I said

4 that it was jurisdiction of the military command, and they are the ones

5 who can provide it and that they should provide it, not me, because how

6 could I provide it for them?

7 Q. You also knew that the Muslim detainees didn't have access to

8 visitors. They were not permitted visitors after the first few weeks;

9 right? In other words, in May of 1992, they were allowed visitors, but

10 then after that, nobody could receive visitors from the outside. You knew

11 that; right?

12 A. I'm not aware of that, they did not -- that they did not receive

13 visitors, except for a few days when it was said that they had contracted

14 lice, and it was then that visits were prohibited. After that, I do not

15 recall any prohibition of visits, nor do I know who could have prohibited

16 those visits. If the visits were prohibited, then this prohibition could

17 only come from the military command.

18 Q. You also knew that the Serbs serving their sentences were allowed

19 to walk around in the KP Dom compound, right, while the Muslim prisoners

20 were detained in their rooms?

21 A. They had no contact with them either. Then I did not know it.

22 The internal organisation, either in the case of ones or the case of

23 others was not something that I did not know.

24 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, on behalf of the Serb prisoners serving their

25 sentences, you wrote recommendations for their early release based on the

Page 8110

1 work that they did at the farm; right?

2 A. You mean persons serving sentences.

3 Q. That was precisely my question.

4 A. Well, that was done beforehand, too, but since people knew more

5 about that, I told you, those people who worked there, and they made the

6 list and the report, the analysis for the Ministry of Justice, they

7 thought that they should write who would be -- who was eligible for -- for

8 some lenience at different periods of time, and it had to do with their

9 conduct and the way in which they performed their tasks at the farm.

10 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I would like to have

11 the witness shown Exhibit D85. The first page of the English on the

12 ELMO.

13 Q. This is a document that you prepared, Mr. Krnojelac, listing the

14 persons serving their sentences, and for each one -- for most of them

15 you've made a recommendation for a reduction in sentence because of the

16 work done and the behaviour of the individual; right?

17 A. I think I just said that. I did not write this, but I accept it

18 from my collaborators, this information which they had written.

19 Q. You never prepared any sort of documents like this on behalf of

20 the Muslim detainees; right? There was never any review of their

21 sentences based on their acceptable behaviour, was there?

22 A. Excellent question, and my answer to it is as follows: For things

23 that I was responsible for, I had to do something like this and authorise

24 it, but all those in the Ministry of Justice knew, they had been told

25 verbally, and they told me that this could be done by persons who worked

Page 8111

1 with persons serving sentences, and I was responsible for them. And for

2 those other persons, because I was not responsible for them, I could not

3 make any proposals for those persons who were detained.

4 Q. As far as you know, there were never any documents like this --

5 I'm not asking you if you did it yourself. You've already told us that

6 you did not. But as far as you know, nobody ever prepared documents like

7 this regarding the Muslim detainees; right?

8 A. I'm not -- I do not know if anybody did that. I do not know.

9 Q. Nobody ever came to you to ask you about the work that the

10 detainees did for the furniture factory or the farm or the metalwork shop

11 and whether the detainees did acceptable work that could go toward their

12 early release; right? Nobody ever asked you about that, did they?

13 A. Neither did anyone ask me nor had anyone reason to ask me, because

14 those people knew that I was not responsible for their work --

15 Q. Sir --

16 A. -- because there was somebody else who was responsible for them.

17 Q. My question was: You've told us that you were in charge

18 ultimately of the furniture factory and the farm and the metal workshop.

19 And you've also told us that Muslim detainees worked in all three of those

20 places. And my question to you is: No one ever came to you to ask you

21 about the performance of those Muslim detainees for the purposes of

22 reviewing whether they should be released; right? No one ever asked you

23 for your opinion about the work they did; right?

24 A. Nobody asked me for my opinion, but whether heads, work units were

25 asked about that, I wouldn't know.

Page 8112

1 Q. You're saying that even though you were the person who was

2 ultimately in charge of those three economic units, that nobody asked you

3 in your official capacity but might possibly have asked someone else?

4 A. Nobody ever turned to me with that.

5 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, during one of your conversations with your former

6 colleague RJ, he told you that he could hear the sound of people being

7 beaten; isn't that right?

8 A. My colleague, my highly appreciated colleague, never said that to

9 me.

10 Q. He never told you that people were scared when they heard these

11 beatings?

12 A. We never, ever talked about that.

13 Q. Didn't RJ also tell you about a specific incident when one

14 detainee tried to get ahead in the line to get food and was beaten by

15 guards because he did that? Did he tell you that?

16 A. Believe me, I am telling you that he did not, and I do not

17 recollect that there was any conversation with my colleague about this or

18 any other similar situation.

19 Q. You asked RJ to give you information about what the detainees'

20 conditions were like, didn't you?

21 A. Never, not even that. I never told him even that, nor did he ever

22 tell me about that either.

23 Q. RJ was a colleague of yours, a close colleague, for many years at

24 the school; right?

25 A. Very close colleagues, colleagues of many years. [redacted]

Page 8113

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 Q. You were friends with him in addition to being colleagues; right?

4 A. Well, in a sense, friendly colleagues, because if we are

5 colleagues, then we're friends too. We didn't visit one another at

6 home - that is, we did not carry out our friendship in our homes - but in

7 school, outings with children, excursions, or in pubs, and so we would

8 spend some time as friends.

9 Q. He was someone you trusted; right?

10 A. He is not the only one. There are a number of people whom I

11 trusted, and he was one of those that, yes, whom I trusted.

12 Q. During the times that you met when he was detained at the KP Dom,

13 you sometimes talked about what was happening at the KP Dom; right?

14 A. No. No. He never said to me or talked to me about what was going

15 on, except that we would sit down, have some coffee, and talk. And yes,

16 there was frequent mention of his -- the state of his health, and that is

17 how that medicine came up, what the colleague mentioned. It was really

18 very difficult to find that medicine in the area, but he managed to get it

19 from somewhere - whether from Serbia or Montenegro, I don't know - but she

20 [as interpreted] found somewhere that medicine.

21 Q. And you never asked RJ how he was doing? Aside from his health,

22 you never asked him about what life was like for him in the KP Dom?

23 A. Whenever he came to see me, he was always in such a good mood that

24 there was no problem. He had taken care of his family, he knew where his

25 children were, where his wife was. So on the contrary; he always seemed

Page 8114

1 to be in a very good mood - that's the way he seemed to me - like he did

2 before the war. He was generally in a good mood.

3 Q. You told him sometimes about things that you knew that had

4 happened at the KP Dom; right?

5 A. I keep repeating this to you. I did not know. I never talked to

6 him and he never talked to me about these things that were going on, if

7 they were going on, because I do not know that they were going on.

8 Q. You knew that Halim Konjo had died at the KP Dom and you told RJ

9 about it, didn't you?

10 A. I did not know that he had died. I heard that he had committed

11 suicide, and it was only natural that I should tell my colleague about

12 that, because there was no reason for me to hide that. I found that out

13 through Mr. Jokanovic, that a commission came and that he committed

14 suicide. I did not hide this. With your permission, may I say that I

15 never hid anything that I knew, or rather, what I heard from others in

16 terms of what they conveyed to me.

17 Q. When Halim Konjo died at the KP Dom, that news spread very quickly

18 that very morning; right?

19 A. I'm saying once again: He didn't die. I heard that he committed

20 suicide. I don't know whether it was that morning, that same morning. I

21 mean, I found out after the commission had already come, or rather, after

22 the commission had finished its work. That's when I found out from Gojko

23 Jokanovic that a commission came because of the suicide of Mr. Konjo. I

24 don't know anything more about that.

25 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you learned about that the very morning after

Page 8115

1 Mr. Konjo died; right? You told the investigators during your June 6th,

2 2000 interview, on page 38 in the English version: "When I came to work

3 in the morning, I found out about that case."

4 A. Possibly, but I'm telling you how I found out. Mr. Jokanovic said

5 to me that he had committed suicide and that a commission came to carry

6 out an investigation. Whether it was immediately in the morning, at 7.00,

7 or whether it was at 9.00, or when the commission came, that I don't know.

8 Q. And you stated further on that same page: "It happened in the

9 morning. During the change of guards, the word was spread that it had

10 taken place." So the news of Mr. Konjo's death spread very quickly that

11 same morning after he died, right, and you heard about it then as well?

12 A. I just said now how I found out about it.

13 Q. Mr. RJ also told you that people were disappearing overnight,

14 didn't he, that sometimes detainees were taken out and no one ever heard

15 from them again?

16 A. He never said that to me, or am I aware of that.

17 Q. During your conversations with [redacted], he also told you that

18 the Muslim detainees required medical attention, medical treatment; right?

19 A. Mr. [redacted] did not talk to me about that.

20 Q. [redacted] never mentioned to you that the detainees needed

21 medical attention?

22 A. I do not remember that.

23 Q. The pharmacy that you said was a part of the Drina Economic Unit

24 served both Muslim detainees and Serbs serving their sentences; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8116

1 Q. You did not make any distinction in the distribution of medicines

2 between those two groups, did you?

3 A. Since I said that I gave the key to Mr. Jokanovic, then I did not

4 distribute the medicines either. He distributed the medicines, and I

5 never told him to make any kind of distinction. I told him to give

6 medicine to everyone for as long as there was enough medicine, or rather,

7 in line with what the doctor would prescribe.

8 Q. I'd like to ask you about the time when Ekrem Zekovic escaped from

9 the KP Dom in July of 1993. During that time, you were still working at

10 the KP Dom, you've told us, and when you found out that he escaped, this

11 concerned -- this worried you, didn't it, that someone should have escaped

12 directly from the metalwork shop, of which you were ultimately

13 responsible; right?

14 A. I would like to ask you kindly to say the following: Already then

15 I was working on the preparations for the handover of my job, because I

16 knew by then that I had been discharged, or rather, that I had received a

17 decision stating that I was no longer warden, and it is precisely for that

18 reason that I called Relja that morning so that we could go to Brod in

19 order to settle our debts and finish all the other business that we had at

20 Brod, business that he was familiar with. Relja and I went to Brod. We

21 completed this business and we asked if there were some other outstanding

22 problems to have all of this prepared as soon as possible. And I had no

23 duties involved with his escape from the metalwork shop. It's not that I

24 was sad, so that I could say that I was sad that he had escaped, but

25 there's just one thing: I would have felt sorry had he gotten killed, but

Page 8117

1 that was his right, I imagine, to try to escape if he had the opportunity

2 to.

3 Q. Relja Goljanin was still in charge of the metalwork shop at that

4 time; right?

5 A. Relja Goljanin was still in charge of the metalwork shop. In this

6 period while I was there, it was called the metalwork shop. It's still

7 called the metalwork shop. But it was the metalwork shop before too, and

8 it was also the plant for maintenance of various things at the KP Dom.

9 Q. You and Mr. Goljanin were at Brod that very day when Mr. Zekovic

10 escaped; right?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Mr. Zoran Sekulovic had not started working, had not been

13 appointed the warden yet at that point; right?

14 A. My personal opinion is that they would not have given me discharge

15 papers without giving others -- or somebody else an appointment.

16 Q. I'm not asking --

17 A. When I was being discharged --

18 Q. I'm not asking your opinion; I'm asking you about facts. When

19 Mr. Zekovic escaped, Zoran Sekulovic had not started as the new warden

20 yet; right?

21 A. He hadn't come to the KP Dom yet.

22 Q. And there was nobody who was appointed as some sort of acting

23 warden between you and him; right? You remained in your position as

24 warden until Mr. Sekulovic started as warden; right?

25 A. I'm not aware that anyone else was appointed.

Page 8118

1 Q. So when you and Mr. Goljanin found out that in your absence one of

2 the detainees escaped from the metalwork shop, this was naturally

3 something that concerned you; right?

4 A. I was not concerned. Relja had told me that Zeka had escaped from

5 the metalwork shop.

6 Q. And since you were technically the superior to Mr. Goljanin and

7 the metalwork shop, this also concerned you; right?

8 A. It did not concern me, because it is the security that is supposed

9 to take care of that. Why is it called security? They should secure

10 things and make sure that nobody can escape.

11 Q. When Mr. Zekovic was brought back the next day, you were waiting

12 for his arrival at the KP Dom gate, weren't you? When he was brought

13 back, you saw him immediately; right?

14 A. No. I was not waiting and I did not see him immediately. At that

15 time I had finished my work at the accounting service, or rather, that

16 part of my work that I was supposed to complete, and I was supposed to go

17 home. And in the hall, after 30 or 40 metres, in that part where you

18 enter, where the main entrance is to the hall, I saw a small group of

19 people, and they took a man somewhere behind that entrance office, the

20 guard's office at the entrance. And I said, "What was going on?" and then

21 I was told, "The police captured Zekovic and they brought him right behind

22 the guard office."

23 Since this was the end of working hours, and since I knew that I

24 had received the decision stating that I was no longer warden, I asked the

25 guard on duty whether I could see him, and he said, "Yes, you can." And I

Page 8119












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Page 8120

1 walked in there and there was a guard in front of the office - I can't

2 remember which one - and I said, "The duty officer said that I could go

3 see him." And he opened the door and I saw him sitting on the bed. I

4 offered him a cigarette and --

5 Q. We'll get to that. Mr. Krnojelac, when Mr. Zekovic was being

6 brought in, one of the guards bringing him in was Burilo, right, Milenko

7 Burilo?

8 A. Believe me that I cannot remember at all who was on duty then and

9 which guards were in the hall.

10 Q. But you do know Milenko Burilo, don't you, who he is?

11 A. At this moment I can't remember which guards were there and

12 whether Burilo was there. I'm not saying that he was there or that he

13 wasn't there. I'm saying I can't remember.

14 Q. I'm asking you not about that date in particular but whether you

15 know the guard Milenko Burilo at all. You recognise him; right?

16 A. I knew Burilo before the war as well. Not particularly, but I

17 knew him, and I knew that he worked at the KP Dom as a guard.

18 Q. Isn't it true that even before the war he had a reputation for

19 being violent toward prisoners?

20 A. I am not aware of that because I did not work on that during the

21 war, and I was not asking people who was what kind of person or worker in

22 some other organisation.

23 Q. During your interview with investigators on the 13th of July of

24 2000, on page 40 in the English version, 36 in B/C/S, you describe Burilo

25 as being sturdy, corpulent, and strong. Do you remember that

Page 8121

1 description?

2 A. Do I remember that description? I don't know, but I do know that

3 he was strong, on the fair side. He had sort of reddish hair, if you

4 could put it that way, but he was a strong, corpulent man and kind of

5 plumpish. That's true.

6 Q. And you know that he was a guard during this time, right, at the

7 KP Dom?

8 A. At that time, he worked at the KP Dom security. I mean if you are

9 asking me about that day in particular, I can't remember, but while I was

10 there, I would see him amongst the KP Dom security men.

11 Q. You told the investigators, regarding Burilo, on that same page:

12 "I don't know what he had with these people before the war, and I

13 especially don't know what he did during the war."

14 But you knew that he was a policeman at the KP Dom during the war;

15 right?

16 A. That is correct. I agree and that is true.

17 Q. When Ekrem Zekovic was brought in, isn't it true that Burilo beat

18 him at the entrance and that you and the guard Milivoj Milic had to step

19 in and try to get him to stop beating him?

20 A. There is no reason for me not to say the way things actually

21 were. In the meantime, I had taken some 30 steps in the hall, and I did

22 not see that. I only saw that they took him by the entrance, the room for

23 guards on duty, by that room. And then I don't know who was there

24 exactly. They brought Zeka. And I already told you about this. I asked,

25 and I went there, and I saw him sitting there.

Page 8122

1 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Zekovic was unconscious when he was first

2 brought into that room because he had been beaten upon arrival?

3 A. When I came, I found him sitting on the bed.

4 Q. One of the reasons you gave us for wanting to see Mr. Zekovic was,

5 according to your testimony here, that you thought perhaps he had gotten

6 beaten. So you understood that there was a distinct possibility, when

7 someone tried to escape, that he would in fact get beaten when he was

8 caught; right?

9 A. Since I asked the officer on duty to see him, it is true that I

10 asked to see what condition he was in, physical and mental, and to chat to

11 him as a person, to smoke a cigarette together, to give him some relief,

12 perhaps, with that cigarette. Had I known -- I did not know, because

13 there were not such cases. I was not aware of any such case. It was the

14 first such case of a Muslim detainee trying to escape. But I did hear

15 that before, there were two escapes of Serbs who had been detained at the

16 KP Dom, that they escaped from the KP Dom.

17 Q. You knew, when you requested to see Mr. Zekovic, that there was a

18 very good possibility he would have been beaten when he was captured;

19 right?

20 A. No, I did not know that. I simply wanted to see him and to smoke

21 a cigarette together with him. Did I know? No, I did not know.

22 Q. You didn't know Mr. Zekovic very well, did you, before he came to

23 KP Dom?

24 A. I did not. I did not.

25 Q. You didn't have very much contact with him while you were at the

Page 8123

1 KP Dom; right?

2 A. I even don't know whether I had a single contact with him. I

3 can't remember. I don't know about that.

4 Q. So this is somebody with whom you had no special relationship;

5 right?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. And yet you specifically requested a guard to go see this Muslim

8 detainee after he was captured; right?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. You told Mr. Zekovic, when you met him in the cell, that it was

11 too bad that he had tried to escape, because otherwise he would have been

12 on a list of people to be released that very day; right? "That day" being

13 the --

14 A. No. No, that's not right. I did not say anything to Mr. Zekovic

15 about that. I just asked him, "How are you? Are you all right? Would

16 you like to smoke a cigarette?" I offered him a cigarette, and he said,

17 "I'm fine." I offered him a cigarette and he took the cigarette and we

18 both lit cigarettes.

19 Q. This was -- Mr. Zekovic wasn't surprised to see you, was he?

20 A. Don't know. I cannot know what other people feel. He only

21 surprised me with his statement here when he told me that I gave him a

22 Herzegovina cigarette. Believe me, I never smoked Herzegovina cigarettes

23 in all my life. Had he mentioned any other brand of cigarette, I would

24 have believed it, but he specifically remembers Herzegovina, and I know

25 that I never ever smoked Herzegovina.

Page 8124

1 And now as for his other feelings, whether he felt this way or

2 that way, I don't know, because I cannot assess other people's feelings.

3 Q. I should have asked it this way: He did not act surprised to see

4 you, did he?

5 A. Well, believe me, I didn't notice any special surprise.

6 Q. You didn't have to introduce yourself; right? He knew who you

7 were?

8 A. I did not introduce myself. I believe he did know. He said that

9 he went to the metalwork shop, so he saw me and he knew. And he probably

10 knew me before the war, before the armed conflict broke out.

11 Q. The day that this conversation took place was the 8th of July,

12 1993; right?

13 A. Believe me, I can't remember the date. It was in the month of

14 July, at any rate, 1993. That's when he escaped.

15 Q. I'd like to show you Defence Exhibit D45. This is a list of

16 Muslims to be released from the KP Dom, signed by the Foca Tactical Group

17 Commander, Colonel Marko Kovac. It's a list of people dated the 12th of

18 July, 1993, and it says that they are to be released on the order of the

19 Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska of July 8, 1993, for an

20 exchange. Do you see that?

21 A. Yes, I see that.

22 Q. Mr. Zekovic's name is not on this list. That's clear; right?

23 A. As for what I see here, I don't see his name here.

24 Q. But this is precisely the decision that you were referring to or

25 that was referred to by Mr. Zekovic when he said that you told him on that

Page 8125

1 date that he would have been on the list but because he escaped, he was

2 not on the list any more; right?

3 A. I assert that I did not say that to him, nor did I know of this

4 exchange or this list at all. And we see where this decision was made and

5 where this list was made and who signed it as well. I can't see here on

6 the monitor, but there must be a signature there who signed it, who

7 approved of this exchange. I did not know about this. I didn't know

8 about a single one, for that matter. If ever I found out about an

9 exchange, I found out only after it had actually happened, never in

10 advance.

11 MS. KUO: Thank you. We don't need this document any more.

12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you said that this cigarette that you offered

13 Mr. Zekovic was a peace pipe. Can you explain why a peace pipe was

14 necessary? What kind of peace were you trying to achieve with him?

15 A. I can't remember having said a peace pipe, but perhaps I compared

16 that cigarette. If one smokes a cigarette together, that is some kind of

17 cooperation, nice cooperation, but I didn't refer to those peace pipes

18 that people talk about in this world. I was thinking of tranquility,

19 because I thought, I thought that perhaps he was frightened, that he was

20 scared somehow at that moment. And as for his momentary psychological

21 situation, perhaps it might have been easier for him. Because when I

22 light a cigarette, when I go to the cell now afterwards, I inhale four or

23 five times and I almost eat up the cigarette.

24 No. In no other way this peace pipe, only in terms of getting

25 more tranquil, from a health point of view, because we all tend to get

Page 8126

1 upset and these are problems. And of course this is more harmful than it

2 is good in terms of bringing us tranquility, but it's a habit that a

3 person acquires.

4 Q. You were trying to get Mr. Zekovic tranquil so you could find out

5 about the circumstances of his escape; right?

6 A. Believe me, I do not remember that we talked about anything else

7 but which way he had gone, where he spent that night. And he explained

8 this to me, that he crossed the Drina, that on the right bank of the Drina

9 he spent the night, and that in the morning he set out in that direction

10 to see his family. I didn't even know. He told me then that his family

11 was in Montenegro. We did not talk about anything else then. We each

12 smoked a cigarette. I left. The guard stayed there. And what happened

13 later, well, I just went to the apartment where I lived.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. KUO: It's 11.00, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 11.30.

17 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

20 MS. KUO:

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, none of the prison guards or staff was ever

22 punished for their treatment of Ekrem Zekovic after his escape; right?

23 A. I wouldn't know.

24 Q. Did you or any other staff members suffer any consequences from

25 the fact that he was able to escape?

Page 8127












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Page 8128

1 A. I would not know. I did not.

2 Q. I'd like to turn our attention to the Red Cross. The Red Cross

3 did not have access to the KP Dom until the 23rd of June, 1993; right?

4 A. I think, and from, I heard from others, they had come before that

5 too.

6 Q. They had attempted to come into the KP Dom, but you never

7 permitted them to come inside; right?

8 A. They never turned to me or asked me to gain access, so who it was

9 who banned them from entering, who prohibited access to them, I would not

10 know.

11 Q. You had contact with the Red Cross as early as October of 1992,

12 didn't you?

13 A. I do not know the exact time when that happened, but be that as it

14 may, I only -- I had contacted with them only once, or rather, twice, is

15 that I had a kind of contact with them.

16 Q. I'd like to have you shown Exhibit D106. This is a letter dated

17 21st October 1992 which you signed, as the warden, to the Red Cross in

18 Foca, asking for aid packages for captured and detained persons. That's

19 your signature and you wrote this; right?

20 A. Just one explanation: I did not know that you are talking about

21 this Red Cross, not the International Red Cross. Yes, this is my

22 signature.

23 Q. There was a difference, in your mind, between the Red Cross in

24 Foca and the International Red Cross? Isn't it the same organisation?

25 A. To my mind, it is one and the same, but just to make this

Page 8129

1 distinction so that it wouldn't turn out as if I hadn't had any contact

2 with the Red Cross in Foca. Yes, this is indeed my signature and request

3 addressed to the Red Cross.

4 Q. And you testified in your direct examination that in fact you did

5 not receive these aid packages; is that right?

6 A. I did not receive these packages, but a few days later I received

7 another kind of foodstuffs than those that were in the packages. At

8 least, that's what I heard, because the head of the Red Cross said that

9 she could not get those packages because at that time the refugees had

10 turned out, and those packages were very convenient for refugees and

11 displaced, so that later on she gave -- I wouldn't know the quantities,

12 but there was some oil and beans and some detergents, and so on.

13 Q. And you got foodstuffs not from the Red Cross itself, right, but

14 from another source? Is that right?

15 A. That food that I am referring to came from the warehouse which

16 belonged to the Red Cross, where they stocked this food which was received

17 by aid.

18 Q. You made a distinction between the Foca Red Cross and the

19 International Red Cross. The Foca Red Cross contact you had was with a

20 former student of yours; right?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. Which was different from the International Red Cross, in your

23 mind, because those people from the International Red Cross were from a

24 different country and spoke a different language; right?

25 A. No, but because the International Red Cross did not communicate

Page 8130

1 with me; they communicated with the army and the army command. And about

2 this here, I directly communicated with the boss of the Red Cross. That

3 is the difference.

4 Q. And just looking at document D106 again, under the subject line,

5 these were aid packages that you requested for captured and detained

6 persons, not for sentenced people, not for the people serving their

7 sentences; right?

8 A. By "detained persons," I also meant persons who had been sentenced

9 and were serving their terms. I meant them just as well as those persons

10 who had been brought in under custody.

11 Q. So it was for everybody who was held at the KP Dom?

12 A. In any event, yes, I wrote them and asked for it for everybody in

13 the same way, with no discrimination whatsoever.

14 Q. Thank you. With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have you

15 shown document D37.

16 Mr. Krnojelac, document D37 was submitted by the Defence, and it

17 is a report from the Republika Srpska Ministry of Justice and

18 Administration and the Section for Enforcement of Sentences, to the

19 Minister of the Ministry of Justice and Administration. It's dated the

20 22nd of October, 1992, and it's the report on the situation in prisons and

21 prisoner of war collection camps. And it's several pages long, listing

22 several prison camps, and it says that it was based on a list given by the

23 International Red Cross.

24 The Foca KP Dom is not listed on this document, is it?

25 A. I'm looking through it. KP Dom Foca. No, I don't see it

Page 8131

1 mentioned. This report was submitted by Slobodan Avlijas, not me.

2 Q. Now, the people who were detained at the KP Dom Foca were not

3 registered with the International Red Cross by the time of this document;

4 right? That's why it's not listed.

5 A. I simply do not know whether they were registered or not, because

6 they were not under my jurisdiction. If they were not, then it is the

7 responsibility of the military command, that is, the Tactical Group. I do

8 not know.

9 Q. Now, this report was prepared by the Ministry of Justice and it is

10 addressed to the Minister of Justice. You often went to Ministry of

11 Justice meetings in Bijeljina; right?

12 A. Again, I wouldn't -- that word "often." It was only two or three

13 times that I went, and I must say that at none of -- that none of those

14 meetings that I attended took place anywhere else but in Bijeljina,

15 because in Bijeljina, there was, but you'll begrudge me repeating it all

16 the time, because there was a detachment or a subsidiary or something,

17 because it was sort of a halfway for everybody to come, to go, and that is

18 why we all went to Bijeljina where those meetings were held.

19 Q. And in fact, you had just -- there had just been a meeting in

20 Bijeljina in September of 1992 where prosecutors, judges, and wardens were

21 all called together to discuss cooperation with the military judicial

22 organs; isn't that right? Weren't you present at that meeting?

23 A. I do not know the exact dates of the meetings, but I think that

24 there should be some orders, because at a meeting in 1992, I was present

25 there and there were some justice authorities or the presidents of courts

Page 8132

1 were also present at that meeting and wardens of KP -- different

2 penitentiary institutions.

3 Q. And at that time, there was a discussion about these so-called

4 prisoners of war camps within the Justice Ministry; right? There was some

5 discussion within the Justice Ministry of these prisoners of war camps;

6 right?

7 A. As far as I can remember, the discussion was not about prisoners

8 of war or persons brought under custody at the time but about the

9 distribution about penitentiaries and the work of courts, rather, justice

10 authorities in municipalities.

11 Q. With the military justice organs; isn't that right?

12 A. I do not remember them being present there or any discussions

13 between the justice authorities and the military. It was with civilian

14 authorities, that is, with bodies of civilian courts, of civil courts,

15 whatever you like to call them. Courts, not military, not military ones.

16 At least as I can remember. Or at least nobody introduced himself and

17 said that he came from a military court.

18 MS. KUO: I'd like to have the witness shown Exhibit D89.

19 Q. This is a notice set out by the Ministry of Justice and

20 Administration, dated the 5th of September, 1992, and it states that the

21 Ministry of Justice has assessed the situation and concluded that a

22 working meeting must be convened with court presidents, public

23 prosecutors, and wardens, and that includes you, right, Mr. Krnojelac?

24 A. I can't even read this document properly because I think my

25 glasses are too poor and I can't read this. And I cannot remember that I

Page 8133












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Page 8134

1 ever knew about this document or that I know anything about it.

2 No. No, I'm not familiar with this document.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, it could be increased in size on the screen,

4 I think, if you wanted it.

5 MS. KUO: We can certainly do that, Your Honour. We could ask the

6 usher to please help us by putting the B/C/S version on the screen, and

7 then we can ask the audio-visual staff to increase the size. The relevant

8 part would be the first four paragraphs.

9 JUDGE HUNT: When I see the document that the accused was looking

10 at, I can see I'd have some trouble myself, and I believe my glasses are

11 all right.

12 MS. KUO:

13 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, does this help? Are you now able to read the

14 document?

15 A. I do not remember this document. I do not remember ever seeing it

16 or receiving it.

17 Q. In the course --

18 A. And I can't, I can't read it because -- but I simply do not

19 remember at least the heading which I did read, but this heading I did

20 read. The rest I didn't read. I don't remember ever being informed about

21 such a document.

22 Q. Let's try it this way, Mr. Krnojelac: This is the copy that we

23 got from your lawyers and we don't have anything that's any clearer than

24 this, but we did manage to get it translated by the translation staff

25 here, and I will read a portion of it to you in English and ask you

Page 8135

1 questions based on that.

2 You've told us you don't know this document, but it's true that

3 you did attend a working meeting that was called by the Ministry of

4 Justice after the 5th of September, 1992, the purpose of which meeting was

5 to discuss cooperation with various other judicial organs; right?

6 A. I'm not aware that any of those meetings we held discussed such a

7 document. I simply do not remember. It was a long time ago. I do not

8 remember. Perhaps I was there and present, but it had nothing to do with

9 the KP Dom, as I was a beginner in all this and perhaps I didn't pay

10 attention, and so that is why I cannot remember.

11 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I don't -- I'm not focusing the questions about

12 whether you know about the document. The question was your participation

13 in a meeting.

14 I'm going to read from the document, from the English version, and

15 just ask you about the statement. According to this document signed by

16 the Minister or signed for the Minister of Justice: "Wardens of penal and

17 correctional facilities are required to bring to the meeting the rules of

18 internal organisation for approval."

19 That was what you were instructed to do and that's what you did;

20 right?

21 A. I know that rules were adopted by one of those meetings. I

22 brought to that meeting the rules on the internal organisation that

23 existed before, prior to the armed conflict.

24 Q. According to this document, this meeting took place on the 16th of

25 September, 1992, and that attendance was mandatory. So you did

Page 8136

1 participate; right?

2 A. Well, I cannot confirm the date, whether it was that date, but

3 such a meeting which was to adopt the rules on the internal organisation

4 of work, I said that I had brought the rules, but I had brought the rules

5 which had been adopted before the armed conflict. We never prepared any

6 rules, and they accepted those rules which were the old rules.

7 Q. Among the other things that were discussed at this meeting were

8 cooperation between the civilian military -- civilian judicial organs and

9 the military judicial organs; right?

10 A. I do not remember any military organs at that meeting where I

11 presented these rules. I do not remember any military bodies being at

12 that meeting, or perhaps I did not know them, and I am not aware of that.

13 Q. Again, this is not my question whether there was any military

14 people present, but let me read to you a portion of paragraph 4: "This

15 notice of a meeting requires the presidents of the high courts and senior

16 public prosecutors to prepare briefings." And on paragraph 4 it states

17 that among other things, the briefings should include information about

18 cooperation with the internal affairs organs, military judicial organs,

19 inspection services, et cetera. So cooperation between the civilian and

20 the military judicial organs was discussed at the meeting; isn't that

21 right?

22 A. I'm telling you that I do not remember it being discussed, unless

23 they had a separate meeting and they had a different meeting. But at this

24 meeting, I do not remember this cooperation discussed. But perhaps there

25 were some separate meetings and perhaps they discussed it at that meeting,

Page 8137

1 and we, the wardens of penitentiaries and reformatories, discussed the

2 rules.

3 MS. KUO: Thank you. We don't need this document any more.

4 Q. Just returning very briefly to the Red Cross, Mr. Krnojelac. On

5 the day that the Red Cross finally was allowed to come to the KP Dom on

6 the 23rd of June, 1993, a group of detainees were hidden in the bakery,

7 where they weren't doing any work, but they were simply kept there so they

8 would not be registered; isn't that right?

9 A. I'm telling you that I do not know anything about that.

10 Q. As far as you know, none of the detainees were approved to work at

11 the bakery, right, the group that was hidden that day, including

12 intellectuals such as Safet Avdic?

13 A. I have told you that I am not aware of that and that I know

14 nothing about it at all.

15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you were among the people whom the military command

16 included in their list of people who needed to be notified about military

17 arrest authorities; isn't that right?

18 A. Could you please clarify your question?

19 Q. You were notified that there had been a change in military arrest

20 authorities; right? The military officials notified you of changes in

21 their arrest authority; isn't that right?

22 A. No info. I never received -- I was never notified about any

23 military authority or any -- I never received any notification about

24 anything from the military authorities.

25 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have you

Page 8138

1 shown Exhibit D54.

2 Q. This is an order dated 7 September 1992, and it's signed by the

3 Commander of the Foca Tactical Group, Colonel Marko Kovac. And it states

4 that the commander of the military police and chief of security are

5 authorised to arrest an offender at the request of a unit commander, or

6 based on their own assessment, and it also talks about when a person could

7 be released under those circumstances. And under number 3 of this order,

8 it states: "Inform the warden of the Foca KP Dom of this order." That

9 was you, wasn't it?

10 A. Please, I am telling you that I never had this order and that this

11 has absolutely nothing to do with me, with this order. "Inform the warden

12 of the Foca KP Dom," and above it, it says who can arrest and who can

13 release. So it shows: "Inform the warden of the Foca KP Dom," and who

14 was the warden of the KP Dom in the civilian part, but this then has to do

15 with the warden of the KP Dom responsible for detainees, that same

16 commander or one of his men whom he had authorised to do it, not for me.

17 This has nothing to do with me, because I had no right either to arrest or

18 to release, because you see who arrests and who releases and who has the

19 right to put somebody under arrest.

20 MS. KUO: Thank you. We're done with this document.

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I want to talk about Savo Todovic. When you

22 arrived at the KP Dom, he was already there; right?

23 A. As far as I can remember, I did not see him there straight away.

24 On the 18th, I did not see him. I do not know even if I saw him on the

25 19th.

Page 8139

1 Q. Do you know --

2 A. But later on I did see him.

3 Q. Do you know when he started working there?

4 A. I don't know exactly about anyone except myself. All I know is

5 that people did not come to the KP Dom right away. The inflow of these

6 workers for the labour duty started somewhere after the 20th, 21st of

7 April.

8 Q. You knew that Savo Todovic was somebody who had worked at the KP

9 Dom before the war; right?

10 A. I learnt afterwards, gradually, who had worked where. Before I

11 went there and before this information, I did not know that Savo Todovic

12 used to work for the KP Dom. I learnt about that afterwards.

13 Q. You learned, while you were still working at KP Dom, that Savo

14 Todovic had worked there before the war; right? He was one of the

15 professional staff who returned to the KP Dom as part of his work

16 obligation; right?

17 A. Later I learned that he had worked at the KP Dom before the armed

18 conflict broke out as well, but I don't think that he had work

19 obligation. If you have a document of that kind -- but no, he did not

20 have work obligation; he had a military obligation.

21 Q. And you said "later." It was still while you were at the KP Dom;

22 right? You learned while you were still at the KP Dom that Savo Todovic

23 had worked there before?

24 A. I was at the KP Dom, yes.

25 Q. And you also knew that he had been in charge or had been working

Page 8140

1 with legal affairs before the war; right?

2 A. Somebody from amongst the staff at the accounting department told

3 me that he was a clerk who was responsible for convicted persons at first,

4 and later on he became a lawyer. That's what I heard towards the end of

5 my tenure there, and that he became a lawyer.

6 Q. His office was also down the hall from yours, right, on the same

7 floor?

8 A. On opposite ends with regard to the staircase, to the left and to

9 the right, but it's on the same floor.

10 Q. You also had contact with him regarding the allocation of

11 detainees for work in the economic units; right?

12 A. Please, may I just explain this? This office was -- after Mr.

13 Vujovic -- or rather, while Mr. Vujovic was there, he was in that office;

14 and later, when Vujovic left the KP Dom, then Mr. Todovic moved to that

15 office. That was -- I can't remember exactly, but let me say that it was

16 almost towards the end of 1992 when Vujovic left. I don't know whether it

17 was September, August. I don't know exactly.

18 MS. KUO: For the Court's information, Mr. Vujovic is listed as

19 number 1 on Exhibit P3.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

21 MS. KUO:

22 Q. Mr. Vujovic was the lawyer at the KP Dom, right, and when he was

23 there he was also under work obligation; isn't that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When Mr. Vujovic left, Mr. Todovic moved into his office, right,

Page 8141

1 and was also working with legal affairs as a lawyer?

2 A. Whether he immediately moved, I don't know, but he was not

3 involved in legal affairs as far as the economic part was concerned.

4 Q. You also knew that Savo Todovic kept a log or files of the

5 convicted prisoners; right?

6 A. I did not know that. Actually, as far as I know, not all the

7 files of convicted persons at the KP Dom have been found at all.

8 Q. The question was about what Savo Todovic was doing at the KP Dom.

9 You told the investigators of the Office of the Prosecution, on the 6th of

10 June, when you spoke, on page 8: "I do not know exactly what Todovic did

11 there. He was not a craftsman or anything like that. He was a lawyer,

12 and he might have done these legal things."

13 Right?

14 A. It seems to me that I was quite accurate and fair when I said

15 before this Court what he did approximately and what he was in charge of.

16 Q. On that same page, you said: "Who would know who was under whose

17 supervision?" This is regarding Mr. Todovic still. "I never tasked him

18 with anything. The only thing I knew he did was keeping the log or the

19 files of the convicted prisoners."

20 Did you say that?

21 A. Before the war that he did that, yes. As for later on, I think I

22 was quite clear when I talked about this here, and I don't see why you're

23 asking me to repeat all of that, because then we went into closed session

24 when I said to this Honourable Court what he did.

25 Q. I'd like to have you shown Exhibit D -- I'm sorry, P46. And this

Page 8142

1 is a transcript of the section that I just read out, page 8 as well in the

2 B/C/S. We've put an arrow at the point.

3 MS. KUO: Perhaps Mr. Krnojelac can just have it placed in front

4 of him.

5 Q. And we've put an arrow at the relevant section, and I'd just like

6 to have it confirmed, that statement that I read, where you stated: "The

7 only thing I knew he did was keeping the log or the files of the convicted

8 persons."

9 A. But I certainly said here that this was done before the war.

10 Perhaps I didn't say it, but that's what I meant, the work that he did

11 before the war. And later on, I could not have said something like that,

12 like what I said before this Court, perhaps for some justified reasons.

13 And I also said that he was not a craftsman, a repairman, so that he would

14 be in charge of a work unit. He didn't do that before either. And then

15 this was some kind of precaution on my part, because I did not think that

16 questions would be put as to what other people did. I thought that I was

17 only supposed to answer in respect of what did I and what I was in charge

18 of.

19 However, it seems to me that I was clear and accurate in terms of

20 saying before this Honourable Court what I knew. And after all, that is

21 the oath I took, that I will say the truth, and indeed I spoke the truth.

22 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, the section that we're discussing was something you

23 said in answer to the following question: "But was he under your

24 supervision?"

25 So the time that we're talking about was not before the war.

Page 8143

1 You're not talking about what Mr. Todovic did before the war, were you?

2 The question was about your supervision of him, and your answer was about

3 what he did while you were there, and that was to keep a log or files of

4 the convicted persons; right?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have been trying to

6 find what my learn friend has been saying just now. Could she just tell

7 me, please, on page 8 of the B/C/S version, which line is this?

8 MS. KUO: It's toward the bottom of the page, if my memory serves

9 me right, and if counsel would like, we can put that back on the ELMO so

10 he doesn't have to search for it.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Please, because I don't seem to be

12 able to find it on page 8 at all.

13 A. Let me just say here, in respect of this answer, it says here, in

14 fact, I did not know what he did, and I think that that is the gist of my

15 answer. In fact, I do not know what he did, which means that in that

16 case, I did not say --

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Well, my colleague has shown this to

18 us now, but could she please just tell me where files or a log is

19 mentioned of convicted persons?

20 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps if you'd just stop talking for a minute, all

21 of you, because the usher was about to put it on the ELMO. It might be a

22 good idea if somebody from the Prosecution could point it out whilst on

23 the ELMO.

24 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I apologise. I think Mr. Bakrac is right.

25 We seem to have gotten the wrong page.

Page 8144












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Page 8145

1 JUDGE HUNT: You're working from the English version. Have you

2 got the reference in the B/C/S?

3 MS. KUO: I have the reference as being page 8 as well, but I

4 think it's inaccurate.

5 JUDGE HUNT: I see.

6 MS. KUO: Because looking at it now, the people who are speaking

7 are not -- they don't match up.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Right.

9 MS. KUO: So with apologies to the Court, we're going to look for

10 that right now.

11 JUDGE HUNT: And then perhaps Ms. Dicklich can point it out whilst

12 it's on the ELMO so that Mr. Bakrac can see it.

13 MS. KUO: While this is being done, Your Honour, I can go on so we

14 don't waste time.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I don't know. Is it going to take very long to

16 find? Surely it is to be found in a paragraph which starts with some

17 words, and if those words can be located, then you should find the

18 paragraph.

19 MS. KUO: Your Honours, we've found it right now. It starts --

20 JUDGE HUNT: How about putting a ring around the word, putting it

21 on the ELMO and then Mr. Bakrac can find it.

22 MS. KUO: It starts at the bottom of page 7 and it goes to the top

23 of page 8. So the question is at the bottom of page 7, the last line, and

24 then the relevant portion is lines 1 through 3 of page 8.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that should be sufficient.

Page 8146

1 Have you found it now, Mr. Bakrac?

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.


4 You proceed, Ms. Kuo.

5 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Looking at the bottom of page 7, and there is the question which

7 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff poses to you: "But was he under your supervision?"

8 And then the answer you gave is on the next page, at the top, and there

9 you said: "Who would know? Who would know who was under whose

10 supervision? I never tasked him with anything. The only thing I knew he

11 did was keeping the log or the files of the convicted persons."

12 Right?

13 A. Yes, that's what it says. And I think you can see this quite

14 well. Who would know who was under whose supervision, when I did not know

15 under whose supervision he was? At that moment, perhaps I did not even

16 have the strength to say that which I was not certain that somebody else

17 would corroborate, too, in terms of what he did. Because it would have

18 been pointless if I was the only person to say before this Honourable

19 Court that somebody had been doing something unless it had been said by

20 someone else too.

21 I think that you should try to understand me on this point, that

22 at that moment, I wanted there to still be some secrecy with regard to

23 what he did. I did not give him any orders.

24 So he did work on this file before the armed conflict, but in this

25 case, no, he had some specific, special tasks that we already said to the

Page 8147

1 Honourable Court here.

2 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, are you telling us that during those four days of

3 interviews last year, when you were given the opportunity to say that

4 everything you wanted to, that you kept some things secret?

5 A. Well, in all of this, I kept saying the military, the military,

6 the military, but before this Honourable Court, when I testified, I gave

7 the names. So it is true that names were not named then and that no

8 particular reference was made to who was exactly what, except for what was

9 corroborated later by statements of both one and the other.

10 Q. My question to you is: "Did you deliberately withhold information

11 during these four days of interviews? Did you deliberately not state a

12 fact that you're testifying to now?

13 A. I thought then that I was only answering with respect to what had

14 to do with me personally and that you and the Court would not be asking me

15 about the work of others. That is why I thought it was sufficient if I

16 would just say what I did and what I was in charge of, because this is my

17 first time in court. I was never before a court of law before, and I

18 don't know what I'm supposed to do. I thought it was sufficient to talk

19 only about my duties, what I did, and what I reported about.

20 Q. Your lawyers were there with you during these interviews every

21 single moment; right?

22 A. They were present during these interviews, yes. Not at every

23 moment. When they went to have breakfast, they weren't there, but they

24 were present during the interviews, yes.

25 Q. And you were told by the investigator himself, before you began

Page 8148

1 the interview, that if you didn't want to answer questions, you had a

2 right to say you didn't want to answer the question; right?

3 A. Yes, that is correct. As a matter of fact, he cautioned me that

4 everything that I would say would be held against me. And then I said it

5 would be best for me to keep silent and not to say anything. But then

6 they told me, well, then there would be no point in this kind of an

7 interview. So it was said to me. I was made aware of that.

8 Q. And you did answer questions voluntarily; right?

9 A. Voluntarily at any rate.

10 Q. And you spoke with the investigators because you felt the need to

11 explain your situation, and you tried to convince them that you were not

12 guilty of what you were accused of; right?

13 A. At any rate, I think I once said, "It seems to me that you want to

14 accuse me of something that I have not done, and I'm not going to make any

15 further reference to that."

16 Q. And had you not wanted to answer a particular question, you were

17 free to say, "I don't wish to answer that question. Please move on";

18 right? Nobody ever said, "You must answer this question."

19 A. One of the members told me that I could do it that way. However,

20 teachers have an occupational obsession. They speak all the time. And

21 you can see it here, and you have been seeing it, that I talk too much all

22 the time. I want to explain my truth as best I can.

23 Q. And are you telling us that in the course of explaining your truth

24 over those four days there was information that you deliberately held

25 back, to keep a secret? Is that what you're telling us? And now today in

Page 8149












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Page 8150

1 court you're saying that there was further situation?

2 A. Well, I could not put it that way, to deliberately withhold, to

3 hold back. I thought that it only had to do with me personally, and with

4 the extent to which I am a war criminal in that respect, to present the

5 truth. The truth doesn't always have to be cheerful. It can be happy; it

6 can be sad. But what I wanted to do was to tell the truth, irrespective

7 of what it was like.

8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, this transcript shows the second day of your

9 interviews. By the time you were asked about Savo Todovic, you had

10 already been asked about several other people at the KP Dom; isn't that

11 right? This was not the first time that you were being asked about

12 someone else's actions.

13 A. I even know that I said to the gentlemen, the investigators who

14 talked to me, "Please, I cannot" -- or did I say, "Shall I not mention the

15 name of the person who was present when the Red Cross was there?" Because

16 I hoped that these records, minutes of the Red Cross would be presented to

17 this Honourable Court and that then they would show that such-and-such a

18 person was there on behalf of the military and let him talk about the

19 detained persons. I did not mention that name because I was hoping that

20 his name would be found in the minutes of the Red Cross, this

21 International Red Cross, this humanitarian organisation.

22 Q. When you were asked specific questions about Savo Todovic, you

23 never said, "I don't wish to discuss this person," did you?

24 A. Well, what could have been said? And which was, in a way, in my

25 opinion, important, I said that already then. I did not say everything,

Page 8151

1 probably. And that is why I later asked for a closed session to say this,

2 because I told you: Foca is a small town. And in addition to that, 19

3 members of my family -- I mean, I love them, and I have to defend and

4 safeguard the truth as well.

5 Q. I'd like you to turn to page 7, just to go back a little bit

6 further and discuss how this discussion came about during the course of

7 the interview. Go toward the bottom of page 7, please. You were

8 basically going through the list P3, a list of all the employees at the KP

9 Dom, and you've gotten to number -- you went through number 9 or so, and

10 you got to the name Savo Todovic at the very bottom of the page. You

11 point to the middle of that paragraph. You said,

12 "This person, Savo Todovic, it says here he was a deputy chief, a

13 deputy director for legal and financial affairs since 1st July 1993. What

14 he was doing there, I don't know. I only remember that laws were changing

15 in the justice. Most probably that is when this law was changed, that is,

16 when this title of deputy director for legal and financial affairs was

17 introduced, because I do not know of such a name, of such a title."

18 And then you were asked whether Savo Todovic was under your

19 supervision, and then you gave the answer that we quoted earlier. At no

20 point when his name came up on the list and in the course of discussion

21 did you ever say, "I do not wish to speak about this particular

22 individual," isn't that right?

23 A. Whether I said that, I really can't remember. Well, you're

24 showing me this now, but this assistant over here for administrative and

25 financial affairs, appointed as of the 1st of July, 1993, that is on that

Page 8152

1 list of personnel. And already on the 1st of July, 1993, I was being

2 relieved of my duty as warden. At one of the meetings in Bijeljina,

3 mention was made of amending laws in the justice system, and then the name

4 was mentioned of the kind of person who did not exist until then,

5 according to law, that is to say, assistant warden for legal affairs, and

6 in the previous law there was no such post. And when I was told,

7 "Milorad, why are you not talking about this law?" And I said that had

8 it been the law on elementary school, I would talk about it, but since

9 this is the law on justice, I cannot discuss it at all, because I don't

10 know about it, and I certainly won't with be working in the justice

11 system, but I will be working in schools. Because this was in 1973. It

12 was in April or perhaps even May. Then this law about the judiciary was

13 discussed. Because I did not take part in this discussion at all, as I

14 was not very knowledgeable with regard to such matters, and I said that if

15 we were discussing the law on elementary education, I would take part in

16 the discussion, but I would not be needing this because I would not be

17 working at the judiciary. Oh, I do apologise. Sorry.

18 Q. We don't need for you to answer things that are irrelevant, and we

19 certainly don't need for you to repeat that. My question to you was

20 simply about the interview. During the course of the interview, you never

21 once said, "I do not wish to speak about Savo Todovic, because I wish to

22 protect my family or myself or any other person," right? You spoke freely

23 about this person; right?

24 A. But it is true that I said that Savo Todovic was appointed for

25 military obligation. It is sure that I said that, that he was a military

Page 8153

1 conscript and that he was appointed with regard to military obligation,

2 not work obligation.

3 Q. You stated further - and perhaps with the help of the usher, we

4 can look at the middle of page 8 - when you were asked about whether in

5 fact he was your deputy, and you said he was not. And then, about halfway

6 down the page, you make the following comment:

7 "Anybody in the KP Dom could believe that I was the director of

8 the KP Dom because of their lack of information. Whether he was playing

9 some other game behind my back, as many could have done at KP Dom at that

10 time, starting from the security personnel, I do not know. When I left KP

11 Dom, I found out some things which I did not know while I was there."

12 Here you make reference to some games that could have been played

13 behind your back. Are you saying that Savo Todovic and other security

14 personnel were playing games, pretending that you were in charge when you

15 weren't?

16 A. Any one of them, either security personnel or any other military

17 person, could have said to everyone, "Well, Milorad is warden of the KP

18 Dom. Milorad is responsible for you." He could have. It doesn't mean to

19 say that he did say it, but he could have, and that is why I said that he

20 could have said something like that behind my back. These are experienced

21 people. They could have said, "It is Milorad's fault that you are

22 detained and everything." I didn't hear that, but he could have said,

23 "Milorad Krnojelac is the warden for everything, but Milorad Krnojelac

24 said what he was and what the military was."

25 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, isn't it true that a year ago, during the time you

Page 8154

1 gave these four days of interviews, you denied knowing who was in charge

2 of the military part of the KP Dom?

3 A. I said that the army was responsible for the military part, and I

4 did not say who was made responsible on behalf of the army. And to this

5 day, I still do not know -- I wouldn't say exactly, but on the basis of

6 some actions, one could know.

7 Q. Let me see if I heard this correctly. You're saying to this very

8 day, you don't know who was in charge of the military part of the KP Dom,

9 the counterpart to the civilian side, of which you were in charge?

10 A. I'm only referring to this transcript before a year ago, and I

11 say: Well, today one already knows these things, and at that time it was

12 the way it was. If a document is adopted by somebody else, and if it is

13 not adopted by Milorad Krnojelac, then it means that the other person is

14 responsible and not Milorad Krnojelac.

15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, let me quote to you from the 6th of June. This is

16 Exhibit P46, and it's page 4 in both the B/C/S and the English: "I wish I

17 had known then who the director of the other unit was. I only know that

18 it was a military unit belonging to the Tactical Group in Velecevo." You

19 said that; right?

20 A. Please, let me tell you something. Honestly, I was under no oath

21 at that time, and I consider this conversation with gentlemen from the

22 Office of the Prosecutor was something completely else from how I

23 understood that the purpose of this Tribunal. I thought I was talking

24 with them about those situations which had to do with me. And at that

25 moment I never talked about that other part which I simply -- but what

Page 8155












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8156

1 referred simply to the military command.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, the accused has said several times that his

3 belief was they were only interested in what he was doing. Are you going

4 to investigate that at all? Was he told not to talk about other people,

5 or what?

6 MS. KUO: Yes.

7 JUDGE HUNT: It seems to me that you've let it go each time. If

8 you're going to take it up later, by all means. I don't want to take your

9 cross-examination out of order. But it is a surprising assertion which it

10 seems to be needed to be investigated, at least a little.

11 MS. KUO: Yes. I'll do that right now, then.

12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, are you saying that you were told that you would

13 only be giving information about yourself and not be asked questions about

14 other people?

15 A. Well, right now I can't remember whether this is correct. I was

16 asked about others. I cannot deny that. But my idea was that it will be

17 enough to only speak about what I did and what I knew in this particular

18 case, and what I was responsible for. I simply never thought that I

19 should then speak about who else did what and what his duty was. That was

20 my line of thinking.

21 Q. Surely you expected that if you were trying to say someone else

22 was responsible, that you would be asked who that other person was in

23 order for you to assert your innocence; right? That certainly came as no

24 surprise to you.

25 A. It came as a surprise to me that nobody was ready to understand me

Page 8157

1 that I was not responsible, and that is what I was explaining, that I was

2 responsible for something else and not for the detainees.

3 Q. Sir, the question was not related to your actions. You've already

4 told us that. The question was related to whether you logically would

5 have expected that someone would be interested in who was responsible, if

6 not you; right?

7 A. Even one of the members of that team conducting the interview

8 said, "Don't explain to us. Don't explain to us. If you don't want to

9 mention somebody, just tell us, 'I don't want to speak about that.'" In

10 other words, it was enough for me to talk about myself.

11 Q. And in the passage we just went through, you never said, "I don't

12 wish to speak about this individual," right? You went ahead and said what

13 you knew about that person, and it certainly didn't include his being in

14 charge of the military part; isn't that right?

15 A. Of all that I said, that he was a military conscript, and it was a

16 common fact that he was responsible for the military part not for the

17 economic part, because it was not a labour duty; it was military duty.

18 And I thought that it was enough for me to say that, to point out that.

19 Because my knowledge of law, excuse me, but is really none, because I know

20 nothing about it, and then here I'm confronted with all that.

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you stated earlier, just a few minutes ago, that at

22 the time that you made this statement to the investigators, that you were

23 not under oath. Are you telling us that because you were not under oath,

24 you did not tell the truth?

25 A. Heaven forbid. I spoke the truth then, except that I didn't

Page 8158

1 mention directly the work tasks of other people, because my motive is

2 truth, nothing but the truth, and I think I said somewhere I want to

3 defend myself with truth, even though some others maybe do not want to

4 testify to that. I don't know which part of the transcript that is in.

5 Q. And the passage I've quoted to you just now where you said: "I

6 wish I had known then who the director of the other unit was, that is, the

7 director of the military part," that's accurate; right?

8 A. Well, you can interpret it as you like and say that that is

9 correct, but I can say that I simply did not know that I was supposed to

10 say, "Well, that is so-and-so," even on that occasion. But I think it's

11 never late to arrive at the truth, and I've repeated it now during my

12 testimony before this Honourable Court. Because usually one says the

13 truth is like the cork. The deeper you try to sink it, it will surface

14 sooner or later.

15 Q. I would like to show you this transcript so we have a better idea

16 of the context in which this statement arose. It's Exhibit P46, and it's

17 page 4 in the English, and it's also page 4 in the B/C/S. In the English

18 it's line 5.

19 The question that was posed to you was: "I really want to know

20 who was the warden at the time that you were there as the head of the

21 economic part of the KP Dom."

22 And the answer that you gave is at the bottom of the page. We're

23 having it highlighted right now.

24 This is the question that's being posed to you, which I've just

25 read out, regarding who was the warden. Your answer to that was not, "I

Page 8159

1 don't wish to answer this."

2 MS. KUO: Perhaps the usher can leave it there.

3 A. I haven't read it. I haven't read it yet.

4 MS. KUO:

5 Q. Your answer to that question: "Who was the warden of the KP Dom

6 if you were the director of the economic unit?" was not, "I don't wish to

7 answer that," but it was, rather: "I wish I knew, too, and I wish I had

8 known then who the director of the other unit was. I only know that it

9 was the military unit belonging to the Tactical Group in Velecevo."

10 So you affirmatively say that you don't know; right?

11 A. My -- my answer was that that is the Tactical Group which was at

12 Velecevo and was under the military command. And you can see straight

13 away here that it was the warden of that same technical group or, rather,

14 from the military command and that at that time I didn't quote his full

15 name. Now, again, the commander was so-and-so, and now I think in this

16 case if he was the commander, then he was also the warden of that military

17 part, because it doesn't say anywhere the warden of the military part but

18 the commander of the Tactical Group, and it was all subordinated to the

19 military command. Therefore, the warden is most probably the commander of

20 the Tactical Group.

21 Q. So my point is you simply said you didn't know the name and now

22 you wish to tell us that you do know the name; right?

23 A. Please, somewhere during the interview, I mentioned the name of

24 Mr. Marko Kovac. I hope that you will find it somewhere in the

25 transcript, because I did mention his name.

Page 8160

1 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, it's a fact, isn't it, that during your interviews,

2 you were not afraid to give names. You were simply asserting to this one

3 single point that you didn't know what the name was; right? You never

4 said you were afraid and didn't want to give the name. You simply said

5 you didn't know who it was; isn't that true?

6 A. I thought that there was no need for me to mention any names, and

7 I am telling you because I don't know how else to answer these questions.

8 I simply thought there was no need for me to mention their names and that

9 I should speak only about my part, that is, what I did and what I was in

10 charge of. And if that is a mistake and if that is a responsibility, then

11 it is up to the Honourable Court to think about it. I'm telling the

12 truth.

13 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the

14 witness shown the transcript from the last day of the interview, which is

15 the 27th of July. The Exhibit number is P50. The relevant page is 21 in

16 the English, and the B/C/S is now being shown on the ELMO. If we could

17 move it up just a little. Yes, a little bit so that we can see the

18 beginning of that. Okay.

19 Q. You were asked by Mr. Kemppainen: "So my last question was about

20 military command, the chain of command in military, and who was

21 responsible for the military part of the KP Dom? And if I got it right,

22 you are not willing to give in the names. And for further clarification,

23 KP Dom and military in general. Yes, the military part. I mean the

24 military part."

25 And then your answer, Mr. Krnojelac: "It's not that I don't want

Page 8161

1 to give names, it's just that I don't know who was in charge there."

2 Those are your words; right?

3 A. Because it did not happen in the KP Dom, in the administrative

4 building where I was. It happened in the military command. That is, I

5 insisted on drawing these distinctions and that is why I am supplementing

6 this answer.

7 I meant the military part of the KP Dom. Then -- and that is what

8 the gentleman said. And then I answer it's not that I don't want to, it's

9 that I do not know who was responsible for it all, because it did not

10 happen in the KP Dom, in the administrative building where I was, but it

11 was settled in the army command, which means that I did not have an

12 opportunity to see what went on in the army command, and in that case --

13 and it didn't happen in the administrative building where I worked and

14 where I performed my duties.

15 MS. KUO: Thank you. We don't need this document any more.

16 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you've talked very much about this division between

17 the military part and the civilian part, and you've made reference to this

18 contract letting the military use a part of the KP Dom.

19 Isn't it true that you personally were the person who permitted

20 the military to take, to rent out part of the KP Dom for their use?

21 A. I did not do that of my own will, but excuse me, just recall that

22 I said that on the 19th, with Mr. Mladjenovic, the President of the

23 Excessive Board of the Assembly of the municipality of Foca, who said

24 himself that that matter would be settled. And that matter was then

25 settled, and it seems to me that I -- well, we've been talking now, you

Page 8162

1 and I, for a long time, but I think I've told you that. And when that

2 letter arrived, then I asked him, "So what do I do now?" And that --

3 because he was the only one nearby whom I could ask. And he said, "Well,

4 Milorad, there is no more convenient place or better place for those

5 people than the KP Dom, and so approve it." And I just approved it and

6 told him that they should return it in a proper state, in the working

7 order, because I thought it would be all over much sooner.

8 I never thought that these armed conflicts would go on until the

9 Dayton Accords in 1995. I thought it will be over much sooner than that.

10 It will be over in a couple of days and that that part would not be

11 needed, that it would all be exchanged, that the people would go back to

12 their homes and their families and I back to my job and so on and so

13 forth.

14 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the

15 witness shown D38.

16 Q. This is a request directed to the KP Dom Foca from the Commander

17 of the Foca Tactical Group, signed Miro Stanic. And just by the way, Miro

18 Stanic is the same person you've identified already as the President of

19 the SDS from that list of Crisis Staff members; right?

20 A. It's Miro Stanic's signature. At least that's what it says in the

21 typewriter. What is it in handwriting, I don't know, but it says Miro

22 Stanic.

23 Q. So this is dated the 8th of May, 1992, and you saw that document;

24 right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8163

1 Q. So actually, in addition to being the President of the SDS, Miro

2 Stanic -- you already knew at that point that Miro Stanic was also the

3 Commander of the Foca Tactical Group during this time; right?

4 A. Whether he was the commander of the Tactical Group I didn't know,

5 but it says here the "Commander of the Tactical Group," and I cannot say

6 yes or no, because with the army, I don't know their positions. But it

7 says the "Commander of the Tactical Group." Whether he was the commander

8 or not, I do not know that. But it says here the commander. Excuse me,

9 "For the commander." If I'm correct, here on the stamp it says, "For."

10 Oh, yes. I saw this "a" and dash, and that is why I understand it must be

11 for the commander.

12 Q. Yes. I understand that convention which is --

13 A. But you don't see it in English.

14 Q. When it says "For" it usually means that somebody else is signing

15 it but that it's on behalf of another person, usually a much

16 higher-ranking person; right? That's what it means?

17 A. It means that he's not the commander, that it's for, for. It

18 means on behalf of the commander. That's how I see it.

19 Q. On behalf of the Commander Miro Stanic; right? The title

20 "commander" belongs to Miro Stanic, right? Because both names are

21 typed -- both the title and the name are typed in, even if the signature

22 may not be the same person; right?

23 A. Please, it says here "Miro Stanic," typewritten and signed for the

24 commander.

25 MS. KUO: Perhaps we'll just take a look, a quick look at the

Page 8164

1 B/C/S version so that everybody understands this discussion, which the

2 witness has. Very briefly, if the witness could place that on the ELMO.

3 Q. The word "commander" is written in -- is typed in, and the name

4 "Miro Stanic" is also typed in; right?

5 A. Yes. Except that it is this dash and "a," written by hand. And

6 on this stamp, I suppose it also says "for."

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes: That is, the word "Za,"

8 Za, which means "for" or "on behalf of," and the "a" is the accusative.

9 Q. But you're saying that Miro Stanic was not, in fact, the commander

10 but that as President of the SDS he was signing on behalf of somebody

11 else?

12 A. I'm not claiming that. I'm not claiming that either he was or

13 that he wasn't, because I don't know.

14 Q. Let's take it then as either possibility. Mr. Stanic was either

15 the Commander of the Foca Tactical Group or he had the authority to sign

16 on behalf of the Tactical Group; right?

17 A. Let it be so, because I do not know what is the state of affairs.

18 MS. KUO: Could I ask the usher to give the B/C/S version back to

19 the witness and have the English on the ELMO.

20 The request was to use the premises within the KP Dom compound for

21 the accommodation of prisoners of war, and it talks about the premises

22 being used temporarily and that would they would be returned in good

23 condition.

24 Okay. I would like to have the witness now shown Exhibit D38/1.

25 Q. After you received that request, you wrote this response, right,

Page 8165

1 and signed it?

2 A. Yes, that is my signature.

3 Q. And it's dated the 10th of May, 1992, which means that's the day

4 that you wrote it; right?

5 A. Yes, the 10th of May, 1992. That's what it says, so that's

6 probably when it was.

7 Q. The 10th of May, 1992 was a Sunday, wasn't it?

8 A. Possibly.

9 Q. So you were --

10 A. I don't know what day it was.

11 MS. KUO: The Prosecution has a calendar of May 1992 which shows

12 that May 10th was, in fact, a Sunday, and I can show it to Defence counsel

13 and see if they agree to that. This was something that was generated

14 through the computer.

15 I think, Your Honour, if we could just ask Mr. Bakrac or Mr. Vasic

16 if they agree that in fact it's a Sunday so that we can proceed.

17 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid you're speaking so quietly I didn't even

18 hear you. I don't know whether the interpreters did.

19 MS. KUO: I wanted to know if Mr. Bakrac or Mr. Vasic had an

20 objection to proceeding on the fact that May 10th, 1992, was a Sunday.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on the -- this computer

22 paper it says that that was the 10th. But it's 1.00 and perhaps a

23 convenient time for a break. So we shall check it, compare it with our

24 calculations, and if that is so, then no problem.

25 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 2.30.

Page 8166

1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

























Page 8167

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

3 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. Just before the break we were

4 asking Defence counsel whether they would agree that May 10th, 1992 was a

5 Sunday.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

8 MS. KUO:

9 Q. So Mr. Krnojelac, you wrote that particular document, D38, on a

10 Sunday; right?

11 A. I didn't on Sunday, that's for sure. I told you: When I got the

12 letter, I first consulted Mr. Mladjenovic, and after that, this document

13 was written. And as for the calendar, I didn't have one in front of me,

14 so it is possible that whoever was doing the actual writing made a mistake

15 in the date.

16 Q. You wrote that document, didn't you?

17 A. I wrote it, but couldn't it have been possible for me to write on

18 Monday, the 11th, that it was the 10th, and then I had it typed and

19 then -- obviously there was a mistake. I agree with you that the 10th is

20 a Sunday, but I guarantee that I did not sign it on a Sunday.

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, let's have this document placed before you again.

22 When you wrote this decision granting permission to the military to use

23 premises of the KP Dom, you wrote that the premises were temporarily

24 allocated for the accommodation of prisoners of war and detained persons.

25 A. Yes.

Page 8168

1 Q. The request was only for prisoners of war. You added the words

2 "detained persons," didn't you?

3 A. I'm not sure what was in the request. However, since other

4 persons were there as well, of Serb ethnicity, who were detained, then

5 this was added to the former. I don't know what it said originally in the

6 request, whether it was imprisoned persons and then detained persons too.

7 I'm not sure.

8 Q. All right. We'll have you given Exhibit D38 and you can take a

9 look. The request is for accommodation of prisoners of war, full stop.

10 A. That's exactly what it says. However, at that time, since there

11 were also persons of Serb ethnicity who were detained, it is for that case

12 that I added this, and that is why it says "prisoners of war and detained

13 persons."

14 Q. So you wrote a decision in which you gave the military

15 accommodations for more than they actually requested; isn't that right?

16 A. Because I stated, together with Mr. Mladjenovic, president of the

17 municipality, I said that there were detained persons as well, and then

18 I'm sure he knew this, and he said, "Oh, just be free to write for both,

19 because you have nothing to do with either of them, so they will both be

20 put up there." So it is with his approval that I wrote this decision,

21 because he then said to me, "What would be better accommodation than what

22 we have right now at the KP Dom?"

23 Q. You, according to your testimony, met with Mr. Mladjenovic

24 regarding the decision. You met with him over the weekend, right, because

25 the 8th was a Friday.

Page 8169

1 A. Precisely on the 8th. If it was a Friday, it is most probable

2 that I consulted with him immediately, that I went to the municipality,

3 carried out consultations, and on Monday finished this, because I did not

4 want to do this on my own either.

5 Q. You didn't have to get anyone else's signature on this; right?

6 You didn't have to meet with Savo Todovic or Mitar Rasevic or Marko

7 Kovac. You wrote this with your signature, right, and that was enough for

8 the decision to take effect?

9 A. The decision for the temporary allocation of accommodation in

10 agreement with the president of the Executive Committee, that was decided,

11 and I thought there was no need for me to contact anyone else.

12 Q. And there is no other document, no separate document that has

13 Mr. Mladjenovic's signature granting permission to use the KP Dom. This

14 is the only document granting permission and it has your signature on it;

15 right?

16 A. Since at that time I was temporary warden, I asked him. He gave

17 his approval to me. He did not give me any orders in writing or any other

18 document in writing, only what you see here. As far as I can remember,

19 only this, what you can see here. That is how it all ended.

20 Q. You never spoke to the commander of the Foca Tactical Group about

21 what specifically they were requesting, right, in terms of what particular

22 premises and for how long and who would be in charge? You never had any

23 meetings or contact with the military to get those details, did you?

24 A. No meeting, nothing, except for this request that was submitted.

25 Q. And the decision that you made, that you signed, 38/1, that also

Page 8170

1 doesn't specify what premises, for how long, and who would be in charge of

2 those premises, does it?

3 A. It is not specified. It just says that they have to maintain the

4 premises and keep them in proper condition, return them in proper

5 condition, but it was considered that these were quarters for detained

6 persons.

7 MS. KUO: Could I ask the usher to have 38/1 placed on the ELMO.

8 I'm sorry. The English translation is fine.

9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, according to your decision, it says the premises of

10 the KP Dom Foca are temporarily allocated. It doesn't say a part of it,

11 does it?

12 A. The premises are temporarily allocated for the accommodation, the

13 premises of the Foca Penal and Correctional Facility, the accommodation of

14 prisoners of war and detained persons. This accommodation meant the

15 premises where they were put up anyway at the moment when I arrived - I

16 said that - on the 18th of May. So accommodation in those premises where

17 they were already accommodated. That's what I meant, and that is exactly

18 the way I view it today, that these are the premises where they were

19 accommodated anyway.

20 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, can you explain to us why you needed to have this

21 decision if they were accommodated there already?

22 A. Please, this paper, this request, and I did request this from

23 Mr. Mladjenovic in a certain way, to have things known, whose is what, to

24 have these people moved out. And then since he said that it was

25 impossible to relocate them to another because there was no such facility,

Page 8171












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8172

1 the letter was sent, the decision was reached, this was obtained, and

2 that's it.

3 Q. Are you saying that the Tactical Group commander wrote his request

4 because you asked for the request to be made so there was something in

5 writing?

6 A. I cannot assert that. I can only assert that I said to

7 Mr. Mladjenovic that in some way this should be regulated, and he said

8 that he would certainly regulate it. And he did, or, rather, they did

9 regulate it the way they regulated it, like this, because --

10 Q. There's nothing in this decision that says the guard building was

11 allocated to the military, is there? That remained part of your

12 jurisdiction; right? That's not where the accommodations of the prisoners

13 of war and detained persons were.

14 A. Also, upon arriving at the KP Dom, this building was under the

15 people who were from Uzice. And afterwards, it remained to be an

16 auxiliary building for these premises, just like the dining hall, because

17 these are auxiliary premises and one cannot function without the other.

18 And the economic unit did not really need these buildings, so it did not

19 affect it, the fact that this was allocated to them.

20 Q. So these additional buildings, you're saying, were allocated for

21 military use without a written decision, right, as auxiliary buildings, in

22 your words?

23 A. Those were auxiliary buildings in relation to these buildings that

24 pertain to the accommodation of people, and they were also taken before I

25 came, except for the dining hall. The dining hall was not taken because

Page 8173

1 it had not been prepared to function.

2 Q. There's nothing in this document, is there, Mr. Krnojelac, that

3 says that these premises will be maintained by a separate staff?

4 A. Are you referring to the guard building or -- excuse me. What are

5 you exactly referring to? I'm not sure I know what you mean.

6 Q. I'm talking about the piece of paper in front of you, your

7 decision to allocate the premises of the Foca KP Dom for the accommodation

8 of prisoners of war and detained persons. There is nothing in this

9 decision that you wrote and signed that says that these premises that are

10 being allocated for this use would be maintained by a separate staff;

11 right?

12 A. It says here very nicely: "The user of the premises is obliged to

13 maintain them and return them in good condition."

14 I mean by that that the user is who? It says up here the

15 prisoners of war and detained persons. For me as a teacher, at that point

16 that was quite sufficient for me. I'm not a lawyer, a legal person. It's

17 not that I could explain this further or write something else. I thought

18 this was sufficient, and I thought that that is what was meant by this.

19 Q. There was nothing that says that there should be a separate staff

20 that was in charge of that -- the part that was allocated to the military;

21 right? It was the exact same staff at the KP Dom who were working in the

22 part allocated to the military and the part that remained under your

23 control as you describe it; right?

24 A. The way I describe it, it is that staff that are there, precisely

25 it is their duty to keep this in good condition. It is not for someone

Page 8174

1 else to do that, no way.

2 Q. Thank you. We'll move away from this document.

3 Mr. Krnojelac, you testified earlier in your testimony that you

4 had nothing to do with any weapons. You never carried weapons at the

5 KP Dom, and you had absolutely nothing to do with them while you were at

6 the KP Dom, and, "If you ask me," you said, "I'd burn all the weapons."

7 Do you remember testifying to that?

8 A. This last bit, I don't know if I said I'd burn it or use it as

9 agricultural tools. But as for the rest, as far as I can remember, it's

10 quite correct, because I think I even said that I would not even make toys

11 for children that way, and I never carried weapons at the KP Dom, or

12 anywhere else, for that matter.

13 Q. But you were very much involved in the security of prisoners and

14 detained persons, both within the KP Dom and when they were being

15 transferred out; right?

16 A. I was not involved in that.

17 Q. Are you sure that you were never involved in a proposal to

18 transfer prisoners and detained persons to -- or from Bileca?

19 A. I never took part in that, I certainly didn't.

20 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the

21 witness shown Exhibit D39.

22 Q. This is a document which you signed, Mr. Krnojelac, dated 6th of

23 May, 1993, and it's addressed to the Herzegovina Corps as well as the Foca

24 Tactical Group, and it's a report regarding a proposal to relocate a

25 prison from Bileca to Foca.

Page 8175

1 MS. KUO: And if we could move a little bit further down. Okay.

2 Stop.

3 Q. You talk about some of the problems that would be encountered in

4 such a transfer, and you state in this order, or in this report, that:

5 "In order to implement this order to transfer detainees from Bileca to

6 Foca," and I emphasise the word "detainees," "we believe the following

7 issues need to be resolved." And you talk about having to provide

8 security, adequate security personnel. You list 20 employees securing the

9 KP Dom who were sent as military conscripts, and then in addition, there

10 were 24 other military conscripts, and you state:

11 "This personnel structure does not meet even the most minimum

12 requirements for this type of work, and we therefore believe that for the

13 security of inmates, at least 30 workers with prior security experience

14 need to be provided."

15 So you made a report to the military, telling them exactly what

16 you needed in order to carry out the security of a transfer of detainees

17 to the KP Dom; isn't that right?

18 A. I would kindly ask you, because -- I mean, I was listening to what

19 you were saying, because you have a legible manuscript. But this report

20 is an answer to a request by the Herzegovina Corps to relocate the prison

21 from Bileca to Foca, the prison from Bileca to Foca, and down here, as far

22 as I can see, the answer is quite different. Probably in this request of

23 theirs I was actually answering that which should happen. However, here I

24 am saying in this piece of information that since this institution falls

25 under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice and administration of

Page 8176

1 Republika Srpska, it is necessary to obtain their approval, that is to

2 say, not my approval, but their approval, the approval of the ministry, in

3 order to have this carried out and to do something like that, to relocate

4 the prison from Bileca to Foca. That is not to say that I could decide

5 this of my own free will, but they had to ask the Ministry of Justice for

6 approval so that this could be done. So with your permission, I would

7 like to say that this is a kind of answer to their request, because I did

8 not have the right to do that, or rather, I had to ask my superiors, and

9 that is, the Ministry of Justice, the ministry of the judiciary, and that

10 is why I did not take part in this. And for as long as I was there, this

11 was not even carried through, and I had to answer.

12 Q. My question to you, Mr. Krnojelac, was not about your authority to

13 approve this. I understand, and it's clear from the document, that they

14 needed to get approval from the Ministry of Justice, but my question was

15 simply your knowledge. You had a very detailed knowledge of exactly how

16 many military conscripts were working for security, and you also had a

17 very detailed knowledge of how many more would be needed for security

18 purposes; isn't that right? Because that's what you put into the

19 document.

20 A. Well, probably, in agreement with my associates that I received

21 such information from them, they who knew about this and that this was

22 necessary and that I obtained this kind of information from them, and that

23 is the kind of answer that I gave in respect of what was supposed to be

24 done.

25 Q. I'd like to have you shown Exhibit P446. This is a list signed by

Page 8177

1 you; isn't that right, Mr. Krnojelac? It's your signature on the second

2 page?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And are you able to read the date for us? It's a little bit

5 difficult to see that.

6 A. I can only see here October 1992. I cannot see any other date.

7 Oh, yes, yes. Are you referring to the one that's written in pen or are

8 you referring to the list of military conscripts on the first page, the

9 date over there?

10 Q. I mean the date --

11 A. I'm not clear on this.

12 Q. The date of your signature, so it would be the second page. To

13 the left of your signature it says -- it looks like 23 November

14 nineteen-ninety something, and that last date is not clear on the

15 handwritten copy. Are you able to make that out or tell us what date that

16 was, what year?

17 A. Not this, but over here, because it says on the first page for

18 October 1992, it is probably also 1992.

19 MS. KUO: Okay. Then just for the record, the English translation

20 which has it as 23 November 1997 is inaccurate. It should be 1992.

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you testified during your direct examination that

22 you were given this list and that you signed it; right?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. And if you look at the first page, you will see that it's listed

25 as a list of men liable for military service, members of the Foca KP Dom,

Page 8178

1 October 1992. And you are listed first and your rank is Captain First

2 Class. Everybody else in the list after you is listed simply as a

3 soldier. That's accurate; right?

4 A. That's the way it looks, yes: soldier, soldier, soldier.

5 Q. And among the people on the list, if you look at number 2, is Savo

6 Todovic, and number 3, Mitar Rasevic, Relja Goljanin, Drakul Bozo, a lot

7 of people that we've already talked about as working at the KP Dom at this

8 time. And number 19, for example, it Risto Ivanovic, who was working as a

9 guard at the KP Dom; right? This is accurate.

10 A. [No translation]

11 Q. So you knew that all these people were liable for military

12 service?

13 A. According to their age. And up here it says military conscripts.

14 And in terms of their age, I knew that they were subject to military

15 obligation, because everybody under the age of 55 was eligible for

16 military obligation.

17 Q. You prepared this list in preparation for the possible

18 mobilisation; right?

19 A. I did not prepare this list. I did not prepare it for

20 mobilisation. I did not prepare it at all. At any rate, the main

21 objective of this list was, as I said, the Ministry of Defence was

22 supposed to know how many military conscripts were where, because I knew

23 that that was done in other enterprises, other companies as well. I did

24 not prepare this list, nor was such a unit with this composition, for as

25 long as I was at the KP Dom, have any other purpose but working on

Page 8179












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Page 8180

1 information in terms of how many military conscripts there were, although

2 some of them got military obligation and others got work obligation.

3 And then afterwards, or perhaps even immediately then, an attempt

4 was made to show in this way that these people were supposed to receive

5 some parcels, and I thought that this was unfair, because there were other

6 people who also worked at the KP Dom. So they were supposed to get them

7 too. But this turned out to be a way of getting allowances or parcels

8 from the military because they were military conscripts, men of military

9 age.

10 Q. So, Mr. Krnojelac, on the 23rd of November, 1992, when you signed

11 this document, you knew the names of all the people who were working at

12 the KP Dom who were eligible for military duty, including all the security

13 guards; right?

14 A. And I am telling you that I did sign this list, but I did not

15 compile it. This list was literally compiled by Mr. Savo Todovic.

16 Q. I understand that you've told us that he compiled it, but it's

17 your signature on it, not his, and therefore, you knew the names of these

18 people; right? That was your responsibility before you sign a document,

19 that you look it over, read it, and know its contents; right?

20 A. And I am putting it to you that I only paid attention to the years

21 of birth and none to the names. I did take care of the year of birth,

22 because up there it says people liable for military duty, and that is why

23 I paid attention to that, and I didn't pay attention to the rest, and that

24 is what I said. Of course, the Honourable Court will take its decision.

25 I cannot say anything else.

Page 8181

1 Q. Thank you, sir. You knew --

2 A. Thank you.

3 Q. -- Mr. Krnojelac, as of the 9th of June, 1992, exactly how many

4 Muslim detainees were in the KP Dom; right?

5 A. I think that I already told you in my testimony so far that from

6 time to time, from time to time, now and then, I knew, I learnt the number

7 of people from the man responsible for the warehouse, because when it came

8 to food, then he would sometimes tell me, "Well, Milorad, there's so many

9 of them."

10 Q. You knew the exact number of people who had passed through the

11 KP Dom as well; right? In other words, people that were brought there and

12 then released. You knew that number as well, didn't you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You also knew how many military conscripts were working at the

15 KP Dom as of June 9, 1992. That number was 42; right?

16 A. I knew it only on the basis of one document, and at that time I

17 did not know it, nor did I have an occasion or opportunity to know it.

18 Q. What was the one document that you're referring to?

19 A. Well, the one that you mention and in which 38 or I don't know how

20 many people, because it is the document with my signature, and I did not

21 deny that it was my signature, having to do with the mining, then that is

22 it. And I apologise, because I admitted it to my Defence, that that was

23 my signature, and we did not challenge that.

24 Q. You also knew, in June 1992, exactly how many weapons and what

25 kind were available at the KP Dom; right?

Page 8182

1 A. No, I did not know, but it says in this document.

2 Q. You -- this document that you're referring to was a document in

3 which -- which you signed; right?

4 A. If we are talking about the same document, then, yes, if it's

5 about mines.

6 Q. And in the document, you requested that there be mines -- this was

7 a letter to the War Presidency of the Serbian municipality of Foca in

8 which you ask mines to be placed at the KP Dom; right?

9 A. If you allow me, I should like to explain this. If you could also

10 give me the document, I'd like to see it, and I can explain everything

11 that I know about this document.

12 Q. I'd like to ask you first before we get to the document. You

13 requested that mines be put into the KP Dom; right?

14 A. I did not request that mines be placed in the KP Dom.

15 Q. You never ever asked for mines to be placed in the KP Dom for

16 security purposes?

17 A. For no reason, for no reason whatsoever did I ask the mines to be

18 placed in the KP Dom.

19 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the

20 witness shown Exhibit P445.

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I would like to start first with the second page of

22 this document and ask you if that is your signature and stamp.

23 A. It is.

24 Q. Let's go to the first page then. This is a letter which you wrote

25 and signed to the War Presidency of the Serbian municipality of Foca.

Page 8183

1 It's dated 9th of June, and the letter talks about how you had -- the

2 subject of the letter is a request for mine laying and weapon

3 replacements.

4 In your request, you state that on an earlier date, on the 1st of

5 June, 1992, you submitted a request to the Crisis Staff asking for mines

6 to be put down and that experts came to inspect the grounds and agreed

7 with the recommendation but did not actually put the mines in, and that

8 was the reason for this letter of the 9th of June, to get action; right?

9 There was a previous request which was partially followed up on, but

10 because it was not fully implemented, you sent this second request;

11 correct?

12 A. I did not send a request. I did say that I signed it. But a man

13 who fell out of the blue, and I -- that was me who came to become the

14 temporary warden of the penitentiary, reformatory, had I even been there

15 for a longer time, I could never know any one of these items, because I

16 did not have any documentation as to what -- how many people there were,

17 how many people had passed through the KP Dom by then and that I should

18 know how many military conscripts -- how many conscripts should guard

19 those men.

20 This could be written only by a man who had exact information as

21 to how many people had passed through, how many people there were in the

22 KP Dom at the time, how many persons were needed to guard them. Because I

23 am a teacher. How can I know how many people are needed to guard and what

24 their number -- what the necessary number is? I couldn't possibly know

25 that.

Page 8184

1 So this paper was put on my desk, and I was -- it was said,

2 "Milorad, this is a paper you should sign." Why? In order to put mines

3 in the upper part where it says there are no lights and where there are no

4 guards.

5 And incidentally, to protect the property, because that upper part

6 that is along the KP Dom was unprotected, and because it was also sent

7 from the command to sign it. Mr. Savo Todovic brought this to me, and at

8 that moment, as the temporary warden, without any knowledge about this,

9 that is what I put to you, I signed it, and because he said that that was

10 the only way in which the unit could enter and lay the mines. But they

11 did not put the -- did not put the mines only where it says here in the

12 upper part, they also, unfortunately, that is, alongside the upper part of

13 the fence, on the upper part of the Dom, they also laid those mines, or,

14 rather, not afterwards, but that same day, they also laid the mines in the

15 lower part, in the lower part which did not have any asphalt covering, in

16 the direction of the warehouse where the stocks of the furniture factory

17 were kept.

18 And that is why I say that I'm not competent to say, to give my

19 opinion about this, nor did I have all these elements with me, nor did I

20 know anything about this until that time.

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you're saying that Savo Todovic prepared this

22 request?

23 A. He brought it to me so that I would sign it, and I personally

24 think that only the military could know, and he perhaps, and perhaps the

25 guard commander, how many weapons there are in a group. He brought it to

Page 8185












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Page 8186

1 me to sign it. Whether he wrote it, I cannot say that, because I did not

2 see him do it.

3 Q. Surely you read the document before putting your signature on it,

4 didn't you?

5 A. Well, I read the document, yes, I did. I can't say I didn't,

6 because it would be foolish to sign something without reading it first,

7 and I did not think there was anything bad about it for those people who

8 were in the penitentiary, reformatory. I did not think it was an

9 aggravating circumstance. I thought it was a security element. And

10 because of the property, because above the quarters of the KP Dom is the

11 part where there is a factory, and that is where the central warehouse was

12 and the production materials for that factory and so on and so forth, in

13 that upper part precisely.

14 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, it would also be foolish to sign something if you

15 didn't agree with it; right?

16 A. I've just told you how was it that I signed it, because the

17 security in this upper part and the property itself in the KP Dom.

18 Because it was not lit, there was no outside security. I think it was

19 quite clear when we said that there is the inside security and the outside

20 security. In that part there was no outside security, according to his

21 explanation.

22 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you've told us today that your reason for

23 requesting the mines to be laid down was that it was protection for the

24 property that was in that area, but there's nothing in this request that

25 makes any reference whatsoever to property, is there?

Page 8187

1 A. There is something here, somewhere where it says that this upper

2 part is not lit.

3 Q. There is the sentence in paragraph 3, at the second half, where

4 you say:

5 "This is especially relevant, in view of the fact that there is

6 no lighting along the perimeter wall or on the premises of the

7 institution. We have been informed recently that a number of detained

8 persons might try to escape from the institution."

9 So the reason that was given was a fear of escape by the detained

10 persons; right?

11 A. I've just told you that I did not write this and I didn't quote

12 this as a reason. I did not write it, but signed it, I did.

13 Q. And by signing it, you agreed with it; right?

14 A. Well, agreed in the sense that this upper part of the KP Dom does

15 not have any lighting, it is unguarded, so that it could be a kind of

16 protection, both -- also of the property which was in this part, right

17 above, right behind the area serving for the accommodation of detained

18 persons in the KP Dom.

19 Q. You could have written in an additional sentence in this request

20 to say "in order to protect the property." You could have handwritten

21 that in before you signed this, but you didn't do that, did you?

22 A. Well, had I had my today's experience then, but after a month and

23 a half, I didn't have all that experience. Had I had my today's

24 experience, I suppose I would have done that, but a man has no experience,

25 has no knowledge, has no expertise. And presumably, I suppose, at that

Page 8188

1 moment it did not occur to me. But thank you very much. Yes, that would

2 have been a good idea. But I couldn't really -- not everything could

3 occur to me at that time. As for this first date, the 1st of June, that I

4 signed it and wrote it, I put it to you that I did not. And I didn't know

5 about the 1st of June, although it says so here.

6 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, what was the reason for the mining, and who

7 requested it?

8 A. Well, it transpires from this that that was requested by the army

9 command, because they knew that 470 persons -- they knew how many guards

10 they needed. And then from time to time -- and you also agree with me,

11 and other witnesses also said that people went to stand guard. So that is

12 that it often happened that there were not 42, but sometimes there were 31

13 or 30, depending on how many people had gone from the security to the

14 front line, to the line of combat, if I may put it that way, and that is

15 why I think that.

16 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, what was the reason for the mining?

17 A. I have no idea. I'm telling you, I did not write this, and I do

18 not know what the reason was.

19 Q. You've told us today, just a moment ago, that the reason was to

20 protect property. Are you saying that's not true?

21 A. Well, if I say something twice, then you tell me, "We've heard

22 it. Don't go on." And when I say one thing once, then I'd rather not

23 repeat it. One of the reasons, from my point of view, was also the

24 protection of property.

25 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you, in your capacity as the temporary warden,

Page 8189

1 requested that these mines be put in because you had learned that

2 somebody -- that the detainees might try to escape in early June; right?

3 That's what happened. You signed this based on that information; right?

4 A. Based on that information, I am telling you that I didn't sign

5 it. But it was brought, and I was told, "Milorad, you have to sign this

6 document," and I signed it. I read it and signed it. And my only comfort

7 was that because it was not lit and because it was not guarded, that it

8 was also the protection of the KP Dom, and in no way because of this

9 organisation. I had nothing to do with it, and it is obvious that it was

10 the military who wrote it this way, because they were responsible and the

11 guards were responsible for it.

12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, there is nothing in this document that makes

13 reference to the military making this request, is there?

14 A. That's what you think, and my view is what I've just explained.

15 Q. If there was a separate military command making this request to

16 the War Presidency, there's no reason to ask for your signature, is there?

17 A. Please, the entry and laying of mines precisely in a part of the

18 KP Dom, property of KP Dom, they thought that that was the only way how

19 they could enter and lay the mines.

20 Q. There is nothing in this document that says, "At the request of

21 the military, I am giving permission for people to come lay mines." It

22 says that, "As the warden, I am making the request for the mines to be

23 brought in," right, or are you denying what it says?

24 A. I say that I did not write it, that it was written by somebody

25 else. It was written by a person who was -- who knew the situation at the

Page 8190

1 KP Dom very well. And for me, after a month and a half, to know the

2 situation all that well, after this period of time when one first had to

3 take stock of the situation, and for me to know all this, that I knew all

4 that, well, had I been a warden to this day, I wouldn't have known about

5 this thing. But there are people who knew that, and they wrote that, and

6 they did not write it because of me, nor did I write it. And I am telling

7 you, that is how it was, and it's up to you to decide what's more

8 convenient to you.

9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, after you read and signed this document, you knew

10 exactly what weapons there were at the KP Dom; right?

11 A. I do not know where these weapons come from, whether these are the

12 weapons that were received from the military command, or was it found in

13 the KP Dom? I know that the armoury --

14 Q. I didn't ask you where the weapons came from. I'm just saying

15 that after you read this document and signed it on the 9th of June, 1992,

16 you had knowledge of exactly what weapons there were at the KP Dom, right,

17 because it's listed here.

18 A. I never paid any attention to this: who, how much, what kind. I

19 just cast a cursory glance. I wasn't interested to know what, where, who,

20 whether it's in working order, whether it says we don't have ammunition,

21 and so on and so forth.

22 Q. And when you signed this letter, you agreed with the proposition

23 that certain of the weapons be replaced with another kind of weapon which

24 would be more effective and practical for guarding this number of

25 prisoners at the KP Dom; right? That's what the final sentence of this

Page 8191

1 letter says.

2 A. It could only be to satisfy the guard commander for their

3 security. I have nothing to do with it.

4 Q. We'll move on. Mr. Krnojelac, you described --

5 MS. KUO: We don't need this document any more.

6 Q. You described your life and you described how you come from a

7 humble background; right?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. And you stated that when you were assigned to the school in Zavait

10 in 1962, that was by decree; right?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. When you were -- when you had to fulfil your obligation to the

13 army in 1963, that was also by decree, against your wishes; right?

14 A. Well, had I had any other possibility, I wouldn't have gone to

15 serve the army. I would have stayed and left my wife and army, so for me

16 it's an obligation. It's a decree.

17 Q. Sir, the answer is simply yes. When you were --

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not know why my

20 learned friend asks the -- wants the witness to answer yes if she wants

21 him to explain what she's asking. I also agree that we should move on,

22 but if he feels that it is necessary to explain the answer, to say what is

23 his view of that, I do not know why should he be denied that right and why

24 he should be asked to answer only yes.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, your client concedes he talks too much,

Page 8192












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Page 8193

1 and that is clearly right. Now, we've done nothing to interfere, but

2 there does come a limit. That question could have been answered yes or

3 no. If there is a need for an explanation, you have the right, in

4 re-examination, to have that explanation given, but a cross-examiner is

5 not obliged to let the witness have his head.

6 Now, she's let him have his head throughout the last three days,

7 and I think the time is coming when we're all getting tired. If the

8 cross-examiner wants the witness to answer yes or no and it is a question

9 which should be and could be answered yes or no, then she is entitled to

10 have it. Now, you take it up in re-examination if you wish, but he's

11 given that explanation at least twice, to my memory, already, and it

12 wasn't necessary for him to say it.

13 We're not fools. We can read the transcript. We know what he

14 said, and it's unnecessary for it to be repeated every time.

15 You proceed, Ms. Kuo.

16 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. When you went to pursue further studies in Sarajevo, you also

18 described it as being under orders. You were ordered to go pursue those

19 studies; right?

20 A. There was a shortage of mathematics and physics teachers, and I

21 was told -- yes.

22 Q. It was not your choice, and you described it as being against your

23 will; right?

24 A. It was partly choice or, rather, willingness to do so.

25 Q. As a result of this which you were ordered to do, you actually got

Page 8194

1 a benefit; right? In other words, as a result of your pursuing these

2 higher studies in Sarajevo, you were able to get a job in Foca rather than

3 the rural towns where you previously taught; right?

4 A. I said that there was also willingness from that point of view, so

5 that I could send my children to high school. One has better chances when

6 one is a mathematics and physics teacher than if one is only a primary

7 schoolteacher, teaching Grades 1 through 4.

8 Q. When you were assigned to be the warden of KP Dom, you've

9 described that as also having been an order against your will; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But you also got certain benefits from it. For example, you were

12 not sent to the front line like everyone else, and your risks of being

13 killed were greatly minimised; isn't that right?

14 A. That's no privilege, because I already told you that I would have

15 preferred to have been sent anywhere else, but I got orders to go to the

16 KP Dom. That is only an aggravating circumstance.

17 Q. In addition, you had access to a car which you sometimes used for

18 your personal use, not just for KP Dom business; isn't that right?

19 A. I had a family car. My son had a car for personal needs, so I did

20 not need a car for personal needs. And it is mentioned only for -- the

21 other vehicle's only mentioned for business needed by the Drina Economic

22 Unit.

23 Q. You got free labour to fix up your house from the Muslim detainees

24 at the KP Dom, didn't you?

25 A. That is just a house that was protected. It was not being

Page 8195

1 repaired. Until the present day, it has not been fully repaired. It was

2 just protected from further dilapidation, and on somebody else's orders,

3 not mine.

4 Q. Labour was provided to you free. You never pay for that, did

5 you?

6 A. No one ever sent me a bill for that or an invoice.

7 Q. As a result of your having been the warden of KP Dom, you were

8 promised another job within the justice -- within the municipality of

9 Foca; isn't that right?

10 A. A job was not promised to me. Had it been promised to me, I would

11 not have been unemployed for one year.

12 Q. After the one year, during which time efforts were being made to

13 find you a suitable position, you got a job in the Ministry of Education;

14 right?

15 A. Because again, a lot of work had to be done. It was not a

16 question of resting up. Ten facilities had to be put in working condition

17 so that the younger generations could receive a proper education. And not

18 a single friend of mine went there to enjoy that kind of privilege.

19 Q. During the year when you did not actually do any work, you still

20 got credit for social security purposes; right?

21 A. Well, most fortunately I didn't have to go and see a doctor, but I

22 did have social insurance. That is why it says in that list from the

23 KP Dom that it goes on until 1994, but I did not go to see a doctor a

24 single time during that period.

25 Q. And in fact, why when you finally got a job in September of 1994,

Page 8196












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Page 8197

1 it was as headmaster of the school, which was a promotion; isn't that

2 right?

3 A. It was no promotion. I just wanted to be a teacher, and that is

4 why in 1998, I did not reapply for the job of principal. But even had I

5 applied, what happened, happened. But even the first time, it was

6 orders. They said, "Here you are. If you want to, you can be principal.

7 If not, nothing."

8 Q. So again, a decision was placed to you in your life where you were

9 ordered to do something against your will; right?

10 A. Then I was given a choice. "Take this or don't come back looking

11 for another job and then try to make do on your own." And since I had no

12 other way out, I had to accept that job too.

13 Q. You were given a choice that was not really a choice, so you were,

14 according to your own description, ordered by decree to be headmaster;

15 isn't that right?

16 A. Thank you very much for having understood me precisely. That's

17 just the way it was.

18 Q. You see your life as a series of decisions that were made by other

19 people, not by yourself; isn't that right?

20 A. Well, I cannot say that that's the way it was in every respect.

21 Most importantly, in my marriage, nobody else made decisions except for

22 the two of us, and I have been most fortunate in that. As for the rest,

23 there are quite a few cases where other people had a significant

24 influence, because had I had any other choice, had I had some property or

25 had I had a different trade that I could have been engaged in, I would

Page 8198

1 have preferred going into agriculture than being principal of a school.

2 Q. The way you see your life, and I'll just use one of the quotes

3 that you gave us, "Everything that has happened to me except death." So

4 you've been a victim all your life; isn't that right?

5 A. I cannot say all my life but a good part of my life. May I just

6 mention this period to you, from the outbreak of the war conflict? My

7 house burned down, my sons had that accident, my daughter-in-law -- oh,

8 sorry.

9 Q. We've been through this litany of suffering that you've told us

10 again and again about it and we know about it. That's why I asked you the

11 question, to summarise it. You see your life as having been suffering at

12 the hands of other people; right? That's a pattern. It's not your

13 responsibility. These were things that you were forced to do by other

14 people. Isn't that right?

15 A. That's not the way it was in all segments. There were things that

16 happened without that.

17 Q. You told us about your marriage. I know that that's an

18 exception. You did that freely. But all the other things, the jobs, the

19 things you were forced to do in your professional career, the misfortune

20 that befell you and your family during the war, those were things that

21 were outside your control, that somebody else was to blame; right?

22 A. Well, whether somebody else was to blame or not, I just wanted to

23 add that you heard about my past, about my childhood, but those were good

24 days, nice days, although there were hardships too. Then I worked. But I

25 also had some good days, some fine days. I had my family too. Not

Page 8199

1 everything was bad. During my life, there were nice days, good days, too,

2 when a man enjoyed living in such a society and in such company. I cannot

3 say that it's all dark when there were good things too.

4 As for this, it was the way it was, except that I'm terribly

5 pleased that I had people at the KP Dom who truly accepted the

6 difficulties that I encountered as if they were their own, and they really

7 helped me so that I would not have lost entirely.

8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you knew the basic contents of the Geneva

9 Conventions, right, that they were humanitarian laws about how detainees

10 and prisoners had to be treated humanely; right?

11 A. I said that I had heard of them. But please try to understand

12 me. I had nothing to do with the prisoners, but I tried, as much as I

13 could, to help in any way so that it would be better from the point of

14 view of food, means of hygiene, et cetera.

15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I'll quote your own words from the interview you

16 gave to the investigators of the Prosecution's office regarding humane

17 relations and humanitarian law. You said: "A person that possesses even

18 a bit of soul has them already, so to speak, within himself."

19 That's accurate; right?

20 A. That's accurate.

21 Q. You didn't actually have to read any particular documents to know

22 right from wrong and humane from inhumane. You already have that built in

23 as a human being; isn't that right?

24 A. If I am clear with myself, that I do not have internal hatred

25 towards other people, and if I will only work to help them, I believe that

Page 8200












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Page 8201

1 is humane. But also, it is never a waste of time to read all these

2 materials like the Geneva Conventions and everything else, because you

3 never know when you may need that, as we can see.

4 However, even had I read them, I could not do anything but what I

5 have done because I was not in charge of the detained persons.

6 Q. These are not the questions. I am trying to go through the very

7 last 15 minutes of the day in a very structured way, and you do not need

8 to repeat what you have told us repeatedly already. So just please listen

9 to the question and answer.

10 When -- after your first day at the KP Dom and you saw the Muslim

11 detainees there, you went home and you told your wife that you saw Muslim

12 detainees at the KP Dom, didn't you?

13 A. No. No. On the first day, I did not go back home. I spent the

14 night at the KP Dom. Please.

15 Q. The first night when you did go back, you told your wife that you

16 saw Muslim detainees at the KP Dom, didn't you?

17 A. When I came not home but to Cerezluk where I lived, I told her.

18 Q. You told her -- you didn't tell her that they were suffering, did

19 you?

20 A. Well, I only saw them through the window. How could I know that

21 they were suffering and how they felt?

22 Q. But you told your wife that you were not in charge of the Muslims,

23 and you told her that to reassure her; right?

24 A. Well, I said that to her because it was the Uzice Unit that was in

25 charge of that, the unit that was there.

Page 8202

1 Q. You also had frequent contact with Zarko Vukovic during the war;

2 right? And he knew your role at the KP Dom; right?

3 A. These were not frequent contacts, but there were contacts, and he

4 knew what my role was. That's right.

5 Q. When you told him that you were concerned that you might be on the

6 list of indicted persons by this Tribunal, he reassured you by saying that

7 if you had been on the list -- that you were not on the list, because if

8 you had been on the list, you would have already been arrested; right?

9 A. Please, where did you get that kind of information from? I never

10 could have thought of this. It never could have crossed my mind that I

11 could have come to the International Tribunal for having worked at the

12 KP Dom. I don't see where you got this information from, because a man

13 who does his job in an economic organisation, that he could come to answer

14 for things he is not guilty of, I can't understand that.

15 I'm sorry that I have to repeat this for the Honourable Court, but

16 I was arrested. I had left my apartment and --

17 Q. Sir --

18 A. Sorry. I'm sorry.

19 Q. Are you saying that you never told Zarko Vukovic that you were

20 concerned that you might be on the list of indicted persons? You never

21 said that to him?

22 A. I never said this to him. I just said that if I knew that I was

23 in any way a suspect, I would have gone immediately and voluntarily given

24 myself up when Kunarac had surrendered. That's what I stated.

25 Q. You were already worried that you were on the list of indicted

Page 8203

1 persons by the end of 1997; isn't that right?

2 A. I was never worried. I never thought that I could be accused or

3 suspected, whichever way you want to put it.

4 Q. I'd like to show you Exhibit P7, which is your ID, dated 1995.

5 I'll give you the original and the photocopy can be placed on the ELMO.

6 This is your identification card dated 11 January 1995, with your

7 photograph; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And all the information contained in this document is accurate;

10 isn't that right?

11 A. The 25th of July, Stipe Stjepanovic [phoen], last in Birotici,

12 Foca, Milorad Krnojelac. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. KUO: I'd like to have the witness shown Exhibit P8. Again,

15 he can get the original and the photocopy can go on the ELMO.

16 Q. This, Mr. Krnojelac, is an identification card, again with your

17 photograph. It's a different photograph. It's issued from December 1st,

18 1997. And this shows a false name, Marko Kostic, with a false date of

19 birth; isn't that right?

20 A. Yes, that's just the way it is.

21 Q. And you carried both the real identification card and the false

22 identification card with you; isn't that right?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. But I explained why it was carried.

Page 8204

1 Q. You told us that you were aghast when you received this false

2 identification card, and yet, instead of putting it away or throwing it

3 away, you carried it in your pocket and it was found on you on the date of

4 your arrest; isn't that right?

5 A. It was found on the day of the arrest. I carried both in my

6 pocket.

7 MS. KUO: Thank you. We're done with these documents.

8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you didn't care at all what happened to the Muslim

9 detainees, did you? You didn't care at all what happened to them; right?

10 A. How can you say that I didn't care? How able I was to know what

11 was going on is another question, but I care about every person and I care

12 about what's going on to any person. Because I lived in that kind of a

13 milieu, and because of the children and because of the pupils, everyone

14 was important to me, and their problems, and everything that had to do

15 with their parents too.

16 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I will quote to you from your interview with the

17 investigators the 13th of July, 2000, and it's Exhibit P48. In the

18 English it's page 36, lines 16 through 18, and in the B/C/S it's page 33,

19 lines 3 through 6. You state:

20 "I don't know what happened, what was in the civilian part, and in

21 the final analysis, I don't care what was in the civilian part, just as I

22 don't care what happened in the part controlled by the military, for which

23 I was not responsible."

24 It was all the same to you, wasn't it? You didn't care about

25 anyone but yourself; isn't that right?

Page 8205

1 A. I don't know how all of this has been translated, but I cannot

2 remember having said something like that, that I did not care. Because,

3 at any rate, even had I said something like that, heaven forbid, that I

4 did not care, it cannot be said that way, when I took care of food and

5 accommodation and various resources, and now I'm saying that I didn't

6 care. I don't know what was done with this. I don't know how this was

7 translated. I cannot remember that I said something like that. Had I

8 said -- if I said something like that, I apologise, I truly apologise. I

9 said a few minutes ago that I cared, I really cared. Perhaps not the

10 right word was chosen. I did not know what was going on. Perhaps this

11 was not translated quite concretely. It's not that I did not care.

12 Indeed I cared, because these were my friends and colleagues, as I said.

13 Q. I'll show you the document, then.

14 A. No, I'm not doubting your document. Please, I'm not doubting your

15 document. I'm just saying that I cannot allow myself to have said

16 something like that. I don't know whether it was translated properly or

17 whether I blurted out something. It is a possibility that I said that I

18 did not know what was going on, but that I said that I did not care what

19 was going on, I could not accept that.

20 MS. KUO: No further questions.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

24 Q. [Interpretation] I'll start from the end. I'll start from the

25 end, since you cautioned me, and this is an answer to a question, and the

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13 English transcripts.













Page 8207

1 question was not read out to us and I'm going to read the question now.

2 In response to Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff's question --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down. The

4 interpreters do not have this.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Just slow down, Mr. Bakrac. This is not a speed test

6 for the interpreters, please.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Especially not at the end of a

8 working day.

9 Q. Q. Do you know what punishment was envisaged for

10 stealing bread in your civilian part, for example?

11 A. Oh, my goodness. In the civilian part, I don't know

12 what was there, not at all. So ultimately, I'm not

13 interested in what took place in the civilian part

14 or what happened in the military part, where I was

15 not responsible. It seems to me that you really

16 want to accuse me of something that I'm not guilty

17 of.

18 Can you explain this to us? Did you mean, generally speaking,

19 that you did not care about what was going on, or can you explain to us

20 what you were thinking when you made this kind of statement?

21 A. As far as I understood this, it is a question of bread, and in

22 that case, really, because I did not know what would happen if a convict

23 had stolen a piece of bread or did I see a detainee steal a slice of

24 bread, I could not have known what could have happened or what would have

25 been done about that slice of bread. Because that seems strange to me

Page 8208

1 that for a slice of bread, even in wartime, that somebody would have to be

2 held accountable for that. That's the sense in which I meant it. And

3 this other thing, no way. Heaven forbid. I would never say anything like

4 that, even in the hardest possible situation. I wouldn't have said that

5 for them or for anyone. It just had to do with a slice of bread, and I

6 did not know if something like that was happening, whether somebody

7 punished them for that or not. In my opinion, they should not have been

8 punished. Nobody should be punished for that.

9 Q. I'm going to ask you quite directly in respect of this. In

10 response to my learned friend's questions, you were telling us about your

11 suffering. Do you think that the Muslim detainees also suffered because

12 they were detained at the KP Dom?

13 A. If I compare this to this time that I have spent now in gaol,

14 since I am suffering, most probably they have suffered too. Because,

15 please, when they gave statements, when listening to their statements,

16 their witness statements, when they made these statements, believe me that

17 I was living through all of this as if I had felt all of that myself. I'm

18 in prison too. So a lot in respect of what will happen to me depends on

19 their statements, and I'm not to be blamed at all for the statements that

20 they have given, for what they have said in their statements, and their

21 statements are not entirely truthful, but their statements can be one of

22 the reasons why I am here now.

23 Q. My learned friend read out a sentence to you from the interview

24 that you gave on the 6th of June, 2000, on page 30. If the Prosecution

25 agrees, this is one sentence. I'm going to repeat it so that we do not

Page 8209

1 waste time. I don't want to give it to you to read it. This is in line

2 28 in the B/C/S version. You said, "One morning the commander of the

3 Tactical Group came. He came to my office. We said hello and he asked

4 me, 'Milorad, could I do a job at your place?'" Can you explain this,

5 what this meant, "at your place"?

6 A. I can't say whether he said, "I would like to do a job. I would

7 like to do something in your office, at your place. Three detainees will

8 come, so that I can talk to them." Of course I said that that was all

9 right, and I ordered coffee, but I did not attend the meeting. They just

10 had this coffee.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's 4.00.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. We'll adjourn in a moment. We're not sitting

13 tomorrow because of the security requirements for the building. We'll

14 resume on Wednesday.

15 Mr. Bakrac, without in any way seeking to limit you, have you got

16 any idea how long you may be on Wednesday.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we still owe you some

18 translations and some documents. As for the re-examination, I don't think

19 it will go on for longer than half an hour, that is to say, technical

20 questions regarding the tendering of certain translations into evidence.

21 As for the Defence, I think that we will be able to finish everything

22 during the first morning session.

23 JUDGE HUNT: What we have in mind in relation to the final briefs

24 would be to require them to be delivered, filed, by Friday, the 13th,

25 which would give you more than the week that you were originally promised,

Page 8210












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Page 8211

1 and then list the matter for oral submissions the following Wednesday, the

2 18th.

3 I want to remind both parties that the written submissions, the

4 final brief, is not intended to be a complete review of the whole trial.

5 We have the transcript. We have very careful summaries of the evidence.

6 What we want to know are the submissions that each party wants to make on

7 the various factual issues which we have to determine, and we don't want

8 it expressed in long, argumentive pages. We want your submission, any

9 brief argument you want to put in support of it, and the transcript

10 references of the evidence you want us to read in relation to that

11 particular matter. If you have any further legal submissions, that is,

12 further to the legal submissions you made in your Pre-Trial briefs, by all

13 means add to them, but we don't want you merely to repeat them. Then,

14 when we come back for the oral arguments, we will, of course, allow you to

15 make some final peroration on behalf of the Prosecution and the Defence,

16 but we would not expect that to be of any substantial length. What we

17 expect you to do mainly in those oral submissions is to provide an answer,

18 where you wish to, to any of the submissions put in the written final

19 briefs. In the final briefs, yes, in the final written briefs. So there

20 is not a lot of repetition.

21 Now, we won't make those orders just at this stage, but we would

22 like to hear from you on Wednesday morning whether you have any reasonable

23 objection to those dates. We are very anxious that we are able to be able

24 to start making some fairly final decisions on factual issues before the

25 end of the month so that the writing of the judgement can be well underway

Page 8212

1 during the summer vacation.

2 So with those admonitions, we'll adjourn now until 9.30 on

3 Wednesday.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.05 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of July,

6 2001, at 9.30 a.m.