Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8213

1 Wednesday, 4 July 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

7 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Good

10 morning, everybody.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Re-examined by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]

14 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I only have a few questions for you. During the

15 direct and the cross-examination, it was said that the Prosecution Exhibit

16 P3 says that you were in the KP Dom until the 8th or 9th of September,

17 1994, and you explained that during the cross-examination. Now, do you

18 know if under the labour law, a salaried person, for instance, a warden of

19 the KP Dom, who is on the staff of the Ministry of Justice, does that

20 person -- is still on the books of the Ministry of Justice for six months

21 or a year, even though he is not assigned to a new post? Are you aware of

22 that?

23 A. Yes, I'm fully aware of that, and Mr. Minister explained it to me

24 on one occasion that, during that waiting period, I would still be on the

25 books of the Foca KP Dom.

Page 8214

1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, that means after you've been there for

2 some time, you get 6 months to 12 months? Whilst you're waiting for

3 another job, you remain on the books of the Ministry; is that what you

4 mean? It's after you've been working there?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That is right, Your Honour. I wasn't

6 following the transcript, but that was my question, yes. As you are

7 waiting for another job and you are not working in the KP Dom any more,

8 until you are assigned a new job, you are kept on the books because of the

9 social security.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Thank you. My learned friend asked you about your decision at the

13 request to assign certain parts of the KP Dom for military uses. I do not

14 want to show you the decision again, but the heading says: "Serb Republic

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serb Republic Foca, KP Dom Foca." That is, both the

16 Serb municipality of Foca is mentioned and the KP Dom in Foca are

17 mentioned as institutions, as organisations. Do you think it was possible

18 that Radojica Mladjenovic, as the president of the executive board of the

19 municipal assembly of Foca, had arranged the details regarding the lease

20 of the KP Dom to the army, so that there were only two sentences in this

21 decision?

22 MS. KUO: Your Honour, objection. This witness is being asked to

23 speculate about what was possible rather than what he actually knows.

24 JUDGE HUNT: That's so, Mr. Bakrac, isn't it? You could ask him

25 what he knew, having spoken to that person, but I think that your question

Page 8215

1 is not permissible because you are asking him to speculate: Do you think

2 it was possible that ... It's something which you would be able to submit

3 anyway, but if you want to obtain something from the witness, you can only

4 get what he knew.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'll do

6 that.

7 Q. Do you know if Mr. Radojica Mladjenovic had discussed with the

8 military authorities any details regarding the lease of the KP Dom?

9 A. Mr. Mladjenovic had promised me to settle the matter, and

10 when -- during our discussion, he said, "Milorad, sign the decision. This

11 has been resolved and arranged in this way, so you bear no responsibility

12 for letting out that part to the army."

13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Krnojelac, may I remind you, please don't start

14 your answer until the typing has finished. You are coming in on top of

15 the interpreter there. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Excuse me.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, during the direct and cross-examination, you said

19 that now and then, you went to work or went back from work with Mr. Mitar

20 Rasevic. And during your work in the KP Dom, did you use your own car to

21 go to work and return from work?

22 A. To go to work and return from work, I never used either car. I

23 always walked. As for going from the flat to work and from work to the

24 flat, the car was used only for the Drina Economic Unit.

25 Q. Thank you. You also said that at the farm, there was also some

Page 8216

1 kind of security arrangement, even though the farm was, to all intents and

2 purposes, semi-open, a semi-open institution for prisoners and detainees.

3 Was the reason for this security a fear that they might escape or merely

4 to maintain the discipline, that is, prevent the use of alcohol and so on

5 and so forth?

6 A. The farm security was also used because there were those detained

7 persons, because it is, as one could say, a semi-free, open area, and in

8 order to protect the property that was at the farm. So for both reasons

9 there was this security at the farm.

10 Q. My learned friend asked you about document D66/1 and D66/2, which

11 are two requests for release from detention and your forwarding them. As

12 in that sentence with which you forwarded both those requests give also

13 both names. Do you remember if both those requests arrived at the same

14 time? Were they brought to you simultaneously?

15 A. If they arrived at the same time, then they were forwarded at the

16 same time. If they are different dates, because I don't remember those

17 documents, if the dates on the documents are different, then -- of

18 forwarding, because it depends on when the two of them were received, that

19 is, forwarded.

20 Q. For a person serving a term pursuant to a final judgement from

21 before the war, if such a person requested a release, would you also give

22 your opinion and assessment of the behaviour of that person, of his

23 activity in the KP Dom and so on and so forth?

24 A. In the report that was sent about the detainees serving their

25 terms, the report sent to the Ministry of Justice, it shows that there are

Page 8217

1 suggestions to cut their sentences shorter or not to cut them short. So

2 that obviously there will be a suggestion by the prison warden as regards

3 those persons, if it had been necessary, that is, if there had been such

4 persons who had already been serving their terms.

5 Q. Earlier, you also spoke about a JNA officer from Pilipovic, and

6 you said that he was accommodated above the restaurant of the KP Dom.

7 That was what you had said. And I'd like to know which restaurant did you

8 mean; the one opposite the KP Dom or some other?

9 A. It seems to me that I was quite clear about that. It is the

10 restaurant which is opposite the KP Dom, because in the upper part of that

11 restaurant, earlier there were -- there were rooms, reception rooms, that

12 is, rooms where convicts were received. So this is the restaurant across

13 the street from KP Dom. It is not in the compound of the KP Dom, and it

14 has nothing to do with the KP Dom. But it wasn't only that officer

15 there. There were more soldiers there, I said.

16 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you spoke and we saw from this document that the

17 KP Dom had been let out of the army. The document says on the 10th of

18 May. I would like to know if before the 10th of May the army guarded

19 those Muslims detained -- imprisoned in the KP Dom, and that is this Uzice

20 group that you talked about, and were they replaced by the soldiers from

21 the Livade company? Do you have any knowledge about that?

22 A. Well, whether the Uzice unit was precisely in that on the 10th of

23 May, I'm not sure. But be that as it may, after the Uzice unit, this

24 platoon from the Livade company came and they were there, so it could be

25 the time of when they changed. But be that as it may, the military

Page 8218

1 continued to provide security and went on guarding the detained persons in

2 the KP Dom.

3 Q. No, no, no. I did not ask you to give us the precise date. What

4 I wanted to know, whether they handed over the duty, that is, whether the

5 Uzice military group was then succeeded by the Livade platoon. And you've

6 already answered that question.

7 A. I do not know if there was an official handover, but the Uzice

8 army members were succeeded by a platoon of the Livade company.

9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, as you went to the school -- that is, you went to

10 the school that you had worked in often. Do you know if the school year

11 1992 ended earlier than normally?

12 A. As far as I can remember, it ended before it should have, and

13 it -- and the next one began, I think, earlier than it should have begun

14 in order to cover the curriculum envisaged for that school year

15 1991-1992.

16 Q. And, Mr. Krnojelac, my last question: There is no need for you to

17 explain it to us. You already told us with regard -- as regards the

18 clothes, you told us that you often combined military and civilian

19 clothes. The way that you had to dress, was that something that was out

20 of the ordinary in Foca at that time, or did other persons, too, to wit

21 refugees, also dress in that manner?

22 A. I shall take my example. I simply wore what I had available, and

23 believe me, that was the situation throughout Foca.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no

25 further questions, but with our learned friends from the Prosecution, we

Page 8219

1 had agreed on an exhibit, which has not been translated because we

2 received it at a later date, and we should like to submit a stipulation

3 regarding the results of the municipal elections in Srbinje in 1997.

4 JUDGE HUNT: You don't need your client in the witness box,

5 though, any longer, do you?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. That is quite

7 right. No.

8 JUDGE HUNT: He can return to his usual seat, then.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Has the terms of this stipulation, as it

11 seems to be called, been agreed?

12 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HUNT: What is the agreement?

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a document with

15 results of the municipal elections in Srbinje in 1997, and I shall read

16 the results in percentages: Serb Radical Party of the

17 Republic -- Republika Srpska, 52.62; Serb Democratic Party, 43.63; and

18 former parties with percentages ranging from 160, 150, 064

19 [as interpreted], 0 something. It is barely legible, and I do not think

20 that these other parties are relevant. These two are the relevant ones,

21 insofar as the results of the elections are concerned. And does the

22 Prosecution agree that I have just read the results of these elections as

23 they are indicated in the document?

24 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And one more thing, Your Honours. I

Page 8220













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 8221

1 apologise. I hope it will be corrected, but the transcript says that the

2 percentage is 160 for other parties, 160, 150, 064. It is 1.61, 1.15, and

3 0.84.


5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And with your leave, Mr. Vasic should

6 like to raise some other matters regarding the admission of documents and

7 translations that we still owe the Court, and perhaps some other

8 deficiencies in the Defence exhibition list.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. During its

11 case, the Defence tendered two expert reports. One is an economic one,

12 the other one is legal, and they are D146 and D147. We should like to

13 suggest to tender also the translations of these documents, of these

14 reports, and their IDD numbers are ID D146/A and ID D147/A.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection?

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. They will be Exhibits D146/A and D147/A.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence also

19 tendered, with Witness Matovic, a decision marked D151, but we owed the

20 translation, because we did not have it at the time. So I should like to

21 ask the usher to help me to deliver the copies of the translation marked

22 ID D151/A, and I should like to tender these translations.

23 JUDGE HUNT: You said "translations," in the plural. There's only

24 the one document, though, is there not?

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, it is one translation, one

Page 8222

1 sheet of paper.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection to that?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit D151/A.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, after Witness B's

6 testimony, the Defence tendered four letters which had not been translated

7 at the time, and we discussed those letters in the courtroom, that is,

8 their contents. And it seems to me that we agreed that although those

9 statements were not in the form prescribed by the Rules, that nevertheless

10 those which have to do with the character of the accused - only his

11 character - could be also tendered in this way.

12 The Defence now has the translations of these documents, and I

13 shall like to ask the usher to help me give it to the Chamber and the

14 Prosecution. In point of fact, it is only one of these four statements,

15 and nothing is mentioned there as regards the events in the KP Dom and the

16 position of Mr. Krnojelac. These are only some of the features of his

17 character which are relevant.

18 JUDGE HUNT: When you said you tendered four letters, they were

19 the letters that had a lot of material which we were not prepared to admit

20 on an informal basis. Were they marked with an identification number?

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. We had marked them

22 with numbers from 9 to 12, so that this document could be number 9.

23 JUDGE HUNT: No. Once they become exhibits, we'll give them the

24 next set of numbers. But then you said there was only one document that

25 you were tendering now. I'm not quite clear what you mean. Are you

Page 8223

1 tendering the one document which has the extracts from the four previous

2 statements?

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. These are four

4 statements. At that time, as they had not been translated by then, we had

5 marked them with numbers 9 to 12 for identification. Of those four, the

6 Defence thinks that only one of them could be tendered, as it refers only

7 to the character of the accused, and as we did not -- we did not say which

8 one is 9 and which one -- I mean, which statement is 9, 10, 11, 12. So

9 perhaps it would be good if this statement had the first number, that is,

10 the identification number.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps if you just give them to the Prosecution so

12 that they can look at them, and they may be able to sort it all out.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --


16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We did not get it in advance, so we have not

17 formed an opinion of it yet.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I understand that. Just to see whether the extracts

19 are long, whether you can see that they do go only to character. We did

20 indicate previously that matters relating only to character need not

21 necessarily fall -- be in the form prescribed, because it would be in the

22 interests of justice to permit them to be tendered anyway. Are they

23 extensive? If so, we'll give you time.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's one page.

25 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Just wait a moment, Mr. Vasic, while the

Page 8224

1 Prosecution have a chance to look through them. You sit down while

2 they're doing it.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, perhaps just

4 a constructive suggestion. We have another letter with a similar content,

5 that is, testifying to the character, so could the usher please -- could,

6 please, the usher give this letter too to my learned friends so that we

7 could save time.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, in relation to the letter from

9 Hasan Dedovic, the Prosecution has no objection, that this could be

10 entered.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. That will be Exhibit D158.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And in relation to the letter from Smail

13 Hadzimusic, there are actually three -- two passages in there that we

14 think relate to the subject matter in this case and should not -- either

15 this letter should not be allowed at all or at least parts of it stricken,

16 because it refers to the car that Mr. Krnojelac drove, and I think this is

17 a matter of importance in this case. And it also has a sentence that

18 Mr. Krnojelac was not a member of any nationalist party and he never heard

19 anything about that. I think this is also not character evidence but

20 related to the subject matter of the case.

21 JUDGE HUNT: That may well be so. Is there some way you can

22 indicate on the document itself? Have you got a pencil that you can mark

23 it with? Those are the passages to which you object.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We mark it in red.

25 JUDGE HUNT: It looks very orange to me, that particular -- you

Page 8225

1 show those back to Mr. Vasic. Have you got some more that you have to

2 read there or is that all?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like to

5 tender this statement into evidence without these sections that my learned

6 friends have marked and to which they object.

7 JUDGE HUNT: And are these all one document, that is, the original

8 and the translations of it?

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. There is an

10 original and there is a translation of that. That is to say, Mr. Smail

11 Hadzimusic's letter.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. They will be Exhibits -- I see they

13 have got an ID D number. So they will be Exhibits D161, and 161/A, but

14 excluded from the exhibits will be that material which has been

15 highlighted in orange on the English version.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: For safety, it might be just as well if somebody

18 could highlight the relevant parts in the B/C/S version as well by

19 reference to what is highlighted in the English one.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I shall do that, with

21 pleasure.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Now, that's of the two documents. You told us at one

23 stage there were four. Are there another two?

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when we heard Witness B,

25 we talked about four statements, and then I said that the Defence would

Page 8226













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 8227

1 deal with the contents of these statements.

2 It is our assessment that out of these statements, only these

3 which we have tendered right now speak of character only and can therefore

4 be tendered as such.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] In line with the instructions given by

7 the Honourable Court.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when Lazar Divljan

10 testified here, we dealt with a notebook that he had from 1992. With the

11 kind assistance of our colleagues, we then had that notebook of his

12 photocopied, and the Defence now has both that photocopy and a translation

13 of it.

14 With the assistance of the usher, I would like to have this

15 document distributed and then the Defence would like to tender it into

16 evidence.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Did you have notice of this, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Not in advance for today, but we remember the

19 discussion about the notebook and we have no objection.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. That will be Exhibit 159, 159/A.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you

22 very much.

23 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. It's already got "160" on it. We'll keep

24 the numbering. You hadn't told me that. We'll make that Exhibit D160 and

25 160/A.

Page 8228

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence

2 apologises for this small discontinuity in terms of numbers, but we could

3 not have anticipated in which order the exhibits will be tendered into

4 evidence, and that is why we don't have them all in the right order now.

5 Your Honour, with the help of Mr. Bakrac, we have just marked the

6 B/C/S copy of that letter, that is to say, those sections that my learned

7 friends marked in the English language.

8 The Defence has yet another proposal, and that is related to the

9 text of the provisions of the Law on Criminal Procedure of the Federation

10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and which pertain to the position of an accused in

11 criminal proceedings both during investigation proceedings and during

12 trial itself.

13 Unfortunately, as soon as the Defence obtained this document, it

14 submitted it for translation, but we have not received a translation yet.

15 JUDGE HUNT: I think you'll find the Tribunal library has that --

16 an English version of it, but it better be checked, because there have

17 been more than one of these laws passed and the one we have may be

18 out-of-date.

19 Is it a very long provision?

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it has eight pages,

21 because there is also a commentary attached to the article itself.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Can you give us the general effect of it so that

23 we've got it in our minds? What is the point you're seeking to make by

24 its tender?

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friends

Page 8229

1 tendered into evidence a statement of Mr. Veselin Cancar, an accused who

2 was tried before a regular court in Sarajevo. The Defence just wishes to

3 prove and show that, according to the provisions of the penal law of the

4 Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina that were valid at that time, the rights

5 of the accused when giving his own statement during criminal proceedings,

6 involve his own choice of defence, which may be the following: He may

7 remain silent, that is to say, without presenting a defence at all; then

8 also speaking the truth; or, on the other hand, not speaking the truth.

9 That is the point that the Defence wished to make through this document.

10 In that sense, perhaps we could agree on a stipulation with our

11 learned friends of the Prosecution if they are familiar with the nature of

12 these provisions of the penal law.

13 JUDGE HUNT: But what is the point; that we should not pay any

14 regard to the document because he may have been electing not to tell the

15 truth? Is that what the point of this is?

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. According to these

17 legal provisions, he had the possibility not to speak the truth, because

18 the law allows him to do that.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I've forgotten the French expression, but in the

20 French Civil [sic] Code they call it the right to lie, but that goes to

21 the weight to be afforded to it, which I would have thought was fairly

22 obvious anyway, that somebody speaking in their own defence, you have to

23 check the weight to be given to it. You don't necessarily disbelieve it.

24 I mean, your client has given evidence. We don't necessarily disbelieve

25 it because he is the person accused; it's just a factor to be taken into

Page 8230

1 account.

2 I don't see there's any particular problem about it, but anyway,

3 let's see what the Prosecution says.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, if there is -- I assume it is

5 only one provision in the law. Why do we not just read it today and have

6 the translation of it in the script.

7 JUDGE HUNT: There is eight pages of it. That's what worried me.

8 I had the same idea.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I assume I take it's just one provision

10 anyway, a brief one. The rights of the accused is probably including

11 this, and if this one provision is read, it shouldn't be long.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Can you find us one clause or one article?

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The Defence will do its best, Your

14 Honour. We just need a bit of time, please.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: If so, could it please be

16 placed on the ELMO.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That's a very good idea. The interpreters

18 would like it on the ELMO if you've got a copy of it there.

19 Whilst you're looking for it, I noticed the transcript recorded me

20 as having talked of the French "Civil" Code. I hope I said "Criminal." I

21 think I did.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have found the

23 provision.

24 JUDGE HUNT: A copy for the ELMO, please.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. However, along with it, we

Page 8231

1 would have to read the provisions of the commentary, and I think that that

2 would be pretty long. Therefore, the Defence has decided to withdraw this

3 proposal altogether.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. There's just one more

6 thing. With the assistance of the registrar, perhaps, we could have this

7 resolved. During the testimony of the accused, Mr. Bakrac, I think,

8 introduced document ID D109. Can you please check whether this document

9 is in the list of exhibits? It should be D109, then. It is actually the

10 calling card with the details of Mr. Hans Thieme. I see the registrar

11 showing me that it has not been admitted into evidence.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Does the Prosecution agree that it's not in

13 evidence?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: According to the notes of Ms. Dicklich, it

15 is.

16 JUDGE HUNT: It is in evidence.


18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then --

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] It seemed to us to be that way too,

20 Your Honour, but I just wanted to double-check it.

21 JUDGE HUNT: According to the list which has been prepared by the

22 Court deputy, there should be a transcript reference to where it was

23 mentioned.

24 Has Ms. Dicklich got a transcript reference? If you give it to

25 me, I'll look it up in the transcript.

Page 8232













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Page 8233

1 MS. DICKLICH: [Microphone not activated]

2 JUDGE HUNT: 7711. Thank you. It's certainly not 7711. That

3 might have been the --

4 MS. DICKLICH: [Microphone not activated]

5 JUDGE HUNT: -- the LiveNote number, yes.

6 MS. KUO: Your Honour, it's day 71, just before the lunch break.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Is that the 26th of June? I don't have the day

8 numbers.

9 MS. DICKLICH: [Microphone not activated]

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. At page 7722, it will be Exhibit D109, so 109

11 is in evidence, and it's described as a calling card with an address on

12 it.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. These were

14 all the questions that I was supposed to deal with. So thank you very

15 much.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

18 further witnesses, no further evidence, and we believe that the Defence

19 case rests in this way.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

21 Has the Prosecution got any other case in reply, other than the

22 medical evidence?

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, that is the conclusion of the

25 evidence in the case.

Page 8234

1 Now, we suggested, I think it was on Monday, that if we gave you

2 into Friday of next week, it was more than we had originally intended. Is

3 there any problem about that in obtaining our copies of your final

4 briefs?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we fully agree that the trial

6 proceedings should be concluded before the summer recess, and as I can see

7 that the 13th of July is the only date that is left for us for filing the

8 final trial briefs, and we accept this date.

9 JUDGE HUNT: You do remember, and you will keep in mind, what we

10 said about the final briefs. We don't want the usual length where people

11 tell us how many witnesses were given and what pages they gave evidence

12 on. We really want the factual matters and any additional legal matters

13 that have raised. And when you come to the factual matters, we want them

14 argued fairly succinctly, with references to the transcript rather than

15 long quotations from them. I assure you, we will look at the transcript.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. And we will provide

17 a brief, final brief, a brief final brief. However, we request in

18 relation to the oral argument that it should not start on the 18th but on

19 the 19th, because the parties will file their final briefs on Friday, late

20 afternoon, and that means we receive, actually, the briefs of the other

21 party only on Monday morning.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that can be very easily changed. We'll make it

23 by midday on the 13th. Is that not possible? I can see Ms. Kuo shaking

24 her head.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we actually have planned,

Page 8235

1 according to your own recommendation, to have oral argument not longer

2 than two hours, and we assume that one and a half days for Defence counsel

3 would also be more than enough, and therefore I don't see --

4 JUDGE HUNT: It certainly would.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- a reason why it should start that early.

6 JUDGE HUNT: But if any of these final briefs are ready, please

7 don't wait until the last minute on Friday, because I, frankly, had

8 intended to have a look at them over the weekend. It's a very good

9 opportunity, in peace and quiet and in solitude, to be able to read and

10 keep reading. So bearing in mind that they have to be copied when they

11 arrive, and there are certain limitations upon the staff late on a Friday

12 night, the earlier you get them in, the better. I do really want to be

13 able to have them with me over the weekend.

14 Now, Mr. Bakrac, have you any problem with Friday, the 13th, other

15 than the mysterious significance of that date that seems to be given by

16 some people?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps you will be

18 surprised, but I'm not going to tell you about all the problems the

19 Defence has now, since it is obvious that that is a date which has to be

20 our deadline, in view of all the other facts and in view of what you

21 said. However, by your leave, since Mr. Vasic and I will be doing that in

22 Belgrade for other reasons, could our deadline on Friday please be by 4.00

23 p.m.? We'll even try to do it a day before that. Or could it at least be

24 by 4.00 p.m., because of faxes and everything else? Of course, every

25 extra day would be very good for the Defence because of the number of

Page 8236

1 pages that the transcript has, but we shall try to draft a short brief and

2 also to deal with the relevant issues in this case, without any reference

3 to matters of minor importance.

4 We also support what the Prosecutor asked for, to have the final

5 arguments on the 19th, so that we could also avoid any kind of

6 repetition. We will have said what we have said in the final brief and

7 then we are going to respond to what the Prosecutor says. The Defence has

8 been given half a day. At first it was a day and a half, but now it is

9 half a day for the oral argument. But if my understanding is correct, the

10 Prosecutor also has two hours only.

11 JUDGE HUNT: No. We haven't said that it all must be finished by

12 the end of the 19th, and we will sit on the Friday if we can. Just one

13 moment.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE HUNT: I'm fairly sure that the 20th is free. I'm trying to

16 think of the rearrangements recently over a number of cases. But we will

17 certainly have it cleared. We will be able to continue on the 20th. But

18 how long do you think you need to reply to the Prosecution's brief?

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Believe me, Your Honour, although you

20 perhaps think I have a crystal ball, I really cannot say this point. The

21 Defence will really try to be brief and remain within the same time

22 framework that the Prosecutor will move in. We will try to use this

23 second half day as best we can, but I really cannot envisage at this point

24 how long it's going to last. The only thing I can promise you at this

25 point, though, is that we will do our best to take a reasonable amount of

Page 8237

1 time, not to dwell on anything too long.

2 JUDGE HUNT: We're sure that you'll do your best, Mr. Bakrac. I

3 was just asking for some indication, and I can see what you mean. If you

4 are going to do this by Belgrade and send your brief by fax, I hope you

5 will forgive me if I say that the fax that you have been using, certainly

6 over the last few months, has a defect in it, that it comes out with lines

7 all over it. It is very hard to read sometimes. I don't know whether you

8 have access to another one.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. We arranged for a

10 new fax and we've been told that it's in place. But until I see it, I

11 won't believe it. No, I'm joking. But there is a new fax and I hope the

12 copies are all right. I mean, it's only about 10 days old.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. Then we will fix the 13th, by 4.00

14 p.m., for the filing of the final briefs. If they can be sent any

15 earlier, the Trial Chamber will be very grateful.

16 We will resume for oral argument on Thursday, the 19th of July,

17 and we will sit through on the 20th if it is necessary for us to do so.

18 We don't want to restrict you unfairly, but if you keep very much

19 in mind that the oral submissions are mainly concerned with responses to

20 the written submissions of the other party plus whatever peroration you

21 feel is necessary at the end in relation to the case generally, they

22 should not be very long. A couple of hours or so would seem to be more

23 than is necessary, but if they take a little more than that, we will

24 certainly not stop you.

25 Very well. We shall resume again on Thursday, the 19th, and we

Page 8238













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 8239

1 hope that we will have something interesting to read, particularly for

2 that weekend. Thank you.

3 We will adjourn now.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.35 a.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day

6 of July, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.