1. 1 Wednesday, 22 March 2000

    2 [Open session]

    3 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

    4 [The accused entered court]

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    6 morning, ladies and gentlemen. Can the interpreters

    7 hear me? I'm glad to see that they're there. Good

    8 morning to the counsel for the Prosecution, to counsel

    9 for the Defence; good morning, General Krstic.

    10 For the record, we're still hearing the case

    11 against General Krstic, and we will continue with the

    12 testimony that we started yesterday. So without much

    13 further ado, I will give the floor to Mr. Cayley.

    14 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President,

    15 Your Honours. We are coming towards the end of

    16 Mr. Mandzic's testimony. So with your permission, if

    17 the witness could be brought back into the courtroom,

    18 I'd be grateful.

    19 [The witness entered court]


    21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    23 morning, Mr. Mandzic. Did you hear me?

    24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. Good morning, Your

    25 Honour.

  2. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is the

    2 translation all right today?

    3 THE WITNESS: I think it is.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let

    5 me just remind you, Mr. Mandzic, that you are still

    6 testifying under an oath. You will continue answering

    7 questions that Mr. Cayley is going to put to you, and

    8 thank you for coming back this morning.

    9 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

    10 Examined by Mr. Cayley: [contd]

    11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mandzic.

    12 A. Good morning, Mr. Cayley.

    13 Q. We left off with your testimony last night on

    14 the night of the 11th of July, 1995, when you returned

    15 from Bratunac to the UN Compound in Potocari, and I'd

    16 now like to move ahead in time to the 12th of July of

    17 1995, in the morning.

    18 You're inside the UN Compound. Can you

    19 describe to the Judges the scene that you saw in and

    20 around the compound at Potocari and inside the compound

    21 on the morning of the 12th of July, 1995?

    22 A. Yes, I can do that. At the base of the Dutch

    23 Battalion in Potocari, approximately 5.000 refugees had

    24 found temporary shelter. Most of them were elderly

    25 people, weak people. There were dozens of wounded as

  3. 1 well. Most of them had been wounded in the shelling,

    2 shelling that was perpetrated by the VRS against the

    3 surrounding villages.

    4 The accommodation was by no means adequate.

    5 People were lying on the floor of old factory halls and

    6 also around the Dutch Battalion base, in the street and

    7 the surrounding factories. Altogether there were

    8 around 25.000 refugees who had gathered there. They

    9 had the same problems as those in the camp.

    10 Q. How hot was it that day, Mr. Mandzic?

    11 A. The temperature was above 30 degrees

    12 Celsius. It was exhausting due to the temperature as

    13 well, let alone the fear. There was a shortage of

    14 water, of food. There were no toilet facilities.

    15 Q. The children and the babies, what was their

    16 state at this time?

    17 A. Well, yes, the children were in a very

    18 difficult situation. As I have already stated, there

    19 was no food, so their mothers couldn't feed them.

    20 Their mothers were exhausted as well. So were the

    21 children. They were crying all the time, screaming.

    22 They had nothing to change them or to wash them.

    23 It was very sad to watch all this. When I

    24 try to think about it all, when I try to go back and

    25 reflect on it, I really see that it was a terrible

  4. 1 trauma for all of us.

    2 Q. At 10.00 that morning, Colonel Karremans

    3 called you again. Can you tell the Judges why he

    4 called you and what you did after your conversation

    5 with him?

    6 A. Let me go back to the previous night, that

    7 is, the night between the 11th and the 12th of July,

    8 and the first meeting in Bratunac with the

    9 representatives of the military authorities of

    10 Republika Srpska.

    11 General Mladic made an ultimatum. He

    12 demanded from the Dutch Battalion and from us that we

    13 should be back to Bratunac on the following day at

    14 10.00 together with a Bosniak delegation that would be

    15 representing the refugees. So according to that, we

    16 organised ourselves.

    17 On the 12th of July, at 10.00 a.m., we were

    18 again in Bratunac together with the representatives of

    19 the Dutch Battalion.

    20 Q. Whereabouts in Bratunac did you go on that

    21 morning?

    22 A. The meeting was held at the same place, in

    23 the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac, like the first meeting,

    24 the one that had taken place on the night before.

    25 Q. You referred to a Bosniak delegation. Apart

  5. 1 from yourself, who were the members of that delegation?

    2 A. Members of the Bosniak delegation were, well,

    3 myself, and then Mr. Ibro Nuhanovic, who did not

    4 survive the Srebrenica Calvary. In the afternoon, on

    5 the 13th of July, he was separated from his family by

    6 the forces of the VRS, and I haven't heard of him since

    7 that day.

    8 The third member of the Bosniak delegation

    9 was Mrs. Camila Omanovic.

    10 Q. If you can recall, who were the Dutch

    11 officers who accompanied you to that meeting?

    12 A. Yes, I remember. It was the Commander of the

    13 Dutch Battalion. At that time he was a Lieutenant

    14 Colonel, Colonel Karremans. Then there was a Major

    15 from the Dutch Battalion, Major Boering. As far as I

    16 can remember, the third officer of the Dutch Battalion,

    17 who was a Sergeant, whom I remember very well but I

    18 just cannot remember his name at the moment, but I am

    19 able to recognise him, and I recognised him yesterday

    20 on the photograph that you showed me. Now, I have

    21 shown you video extracts of that meeting, which I'm not

    22 going to show in the courtroom for your evidence, but

    23 if you could briefly tell the Judges what you recall of

    24 that meeting.

    25 A. You're referring to the second meeting, the

  6. 1 one that started on the 12th of July at 10.00?

    2 Q. That's right, Mr. Mandzic.

    3 A. This meeting resembled more or less the

    4 previous one, the one that had taken place the night

    5 before, with one exception. During that meeting, while

    6 we were discussing, somebody approached the group, the

    7 meeting, from the side and addressed General Mladin,

    8 saying that the Bosniaks were arriving in the football

    9 stadium in Bratunac. So when we heard that, we were

    10 very upset. But then I glanced at my watch and I

    11 realised that within half an hour it was physically

    12 impossible for thousands of refugees to reach Bratunac

    13 from Potocari. Therefore it was a kind of provocation,

    14 whose objective was to scare the representatives of the

    15 Bosniak delegation, to disarm them, if one can put it

    16 that way, when it comes to their requests and their

    17 demands. They simply wanted to crush us, both

    18 physically and morally, so that we would be completely

    19 useless.

    20 Let me mention one other fact which can

    21 support this. One member of our negotiating group, our

    22 negotiating team, sustained a very severe psychological

    23 shock that day, a nervous breakdown.

    24 Q. Do you recall anything else that was

    25 discussed at that meeting, Mr. Mandzic?

  7. 1 A. There was certain indications also about the

    2 possible evacuation of the population, but nothing

    3 really tangible, nothing specific.

    4 Q. Do you recall who was present at that

    5 meeting?

    6 A. In addition to the officers from the command

    7 of the VRS, two civilian representatives of the

    8 Bratunac municipality attended the meeting, as far as I

    9 can remember. One of them was Miroslav Deronjic, who

    10 at the time was the president of the Serb Democratic

    11 Party for the Bratunac municipality. The other one was

    12 Milisav, I believe his name is, Milisav Simic, who was

    13 the president of the Bratunac Municipal Assembly at

    14 that time.

    15 Q. Could you name, if you can, the individuals

    16 from the VRS Command that were present at that meeting

    17 on the morning of the 12th of July?

    18 A. Yes, I can do that. I remember very well

    19 that next to General Mladic sat General Krstic, who is

    20 here today, together with some other officers, whose

    21 faces I can remember very well, but I'm not quite sure

    22 as to their names.

    23 Q. Do you recall whether Mr. Miroslav Deronjic

    24 said anything at the meeting?

    25 A. I cannot recall, but I do remember, on the

  8. 1 other hand, that Simic said something.

    2 Q. Could you tell the Court what Simic said at

    3 that meeting?

    4 A. Yes. Simic spoke to General Mladic at one

    5 point and he told him that in respect of certain

    6 Bosniaks, they needed to have some informative talks.

    7 He suspected that they had been members of the armed

    8 forces.

    9 Q. Do you recall what time that meeting

    10 finished?

    11 A. Yes. It finished between -- sometime between

    12 11.00 and 11.30.

    13 Q. After the meeting, what did you do?

    14 A. After the meeting we went back, together with

    15 the officers of the Dutch Battalion. We went back to

    16 their camp. The situation was very difficult. We were

    17 trying to figure out what to do next, because it was

    18 obvious that no firm guarantees had been given that

    19 there would be a positive solution for all those

    20 refugees. Mr. Ibro Nuhanovic, Mrs. Omanovic, Camila,

    21 and myself, we were very concerned and we were thinking

    22 of putting down the names of the refugees on paper, but

    23 at that time it was a very difficult thing to do. Do

    24 you want me to say perhaps that during the first

    25 meeting, General Mladic had promised that everybody,

  9. 1 regardless of their age, sex, and so on, would,

    2 according to their wishes, be evacuated. Later on we

    3 would see that it was by no means an evacuation, but a

    4 very cruel deportation.

    5 Mladic repeated several times those words,

    6 that he would allow for an evacuation to happen for all

    7 those people there.

    8 Q. You mentioned General Mladic. Did he appear

    9 that day in Potocari?

    10 A. Yes, he did appear in Potocari on that day,

    11 between 12.00 and 1.00.

    12 Q. At that time, at 12.00 or 1.00, had the

    13 deportation started by that time, the movement of the

    14 population to Potocari?

    15 A. If I remember it correctly, General Mladic

    16 came to Potocari. He simply entered this mass of

    17 refugees sometime between noon and 1.00 p.m. And I

    18 think that the deportation began after 1.00 on that

    19 day, on the 12th of July, that is, after General Mladic

    20 had left Potocari.

    21 Q. So can you give an approximate time when the

    22 movement of the population started?

    23 A. After 1.00 p.m. on the 12th of July.

    24 Q. Can you describe to the Judges what you saw

    25 taking place in respect of that movement?

  10. 1 A. On the 12th of July, 1995, in the afternoon

    2 hours, I was in the Dutch Battalion camp. I was in a

    3 position to observe, like everybody else who had

    4 remained in the camp, that women, children were

    5 boarding buses. We could see dozens of buses waiting

    6 in line, waiting for the population to board them. So

    7 because of that, we concluded that there was a

    8 separation of the population going on at the time. We

    9 could only see women and children on those buses. We

    10 didn't know where the men were between 15/16 and

    11 60 years of age. This additionally upset us, but we

    12 were completely helpless. We couldn't do anything.

    13 Q. Let's move ahead to the early evening hours

    14 of the 12th of July. I think the Dutch Commander,

    15 Colonel Karremans, came to speak to you. Can you tell

    16 the Judges what happened after he spoke to you?

    17 A. In the afternoon hours on that day between

    18 5.00 and 6.00 p.m., to be precise, Major Franken from

    19 the Dutch Battalion spoke to me and Mr. Nuhanovic. He

    20 told us that we had to get out of the Dutch Battalion

    21 camp in Potocari because some officers of the VRS were

    22 expecting us outside the camp. So this is how me and

    23 late Mr. Nuhanovic went towards the gate of the camp.

    24 While we were moving towards the gate, which

    25 was open at that time, a Serb soldier of a heavy build

  11. 1 started running towards us, and he went straight for

    2 Mr. Ibro Nuhanovic. He expressed his anger and his

    3 hatred by addressing Mr. Nuhanovic with a question,

    4 "Are you a Turk?" Nuhanovic remained silent.

    5 However, this didn't stop the Serb soldier, who landed

    6 a heavy blow on Mr. Nuhanovic, who, as a result of that

    7 blow, fell down.

    8 Standing next to us there was a Dutch

    9 officer, a Sergeant, who saw this happening, and at

    10 that moment he reacted by saying, "No. No. It's not

    11 correct." Then the Serb soldiers moved away.

    12 We continued for another 10 or 15 metres, and

    13 then General Mladic got out of a car, and he ordered us

    14 to come with him towards the centre of this mass of

    15 people who had gathered in Potocari.

    16 General Mladic ordered me and Mr. Nuhanovic

    17 to speak to the people, though we actually had nothing

    18 to tell them because our fate was the same as those

    19 30.000 people. But I do remember that General Mladic

    20 addressed the refugees, and he told them once again,

    21 "Do not panic. You will all be safe. You will all be

    22 evacuated to the area," or, rather, "the areas that are

    23 under the control of the BH army. First the old and

    24 the infirm, then mothers with their children, and then

    25 everybody will follow as well."

  12. 1 But what created additional panic on that day

    2 was the fact that as early as in the morning of that

    3 day, that is, before 12.00, the soldiers of the VRS,

    4 who on the previous night had surrounded the Dutch

    5 Battalion camp and the civilian population, those

    6 soldiers, in the early morning hours on that day, had

    7 pierced the corridor and actually mingled with the

    8 population. So on that day, a search for certain

    9 Bosniaks started, with no apparent reason at all. They

    10 also started taking them out from the group, and we do

    11 not know anything about those individuals.

    12 We could see nearby houses on fire. They

    13 also torched the houses in a selective manner, with the

    14 purpose of frightening the population and also so as to

    15 prevent them from coming back. It was a very clear

    16 message, very clear sign that Srebrenica -- that is,

    17 that there would be no life for Bosniaks in Srebrenica

    18 anymore.

    19 Q. After Mladic had addressed the crowd and you

    20 had been outside the compound, did you return inside

    21 the UN Dutch compound?

    22 A. Yes, I did, and late Ibro Nuhanovic went back

    23 to the camp of the Dutch soldiers, and spent again the

    24 night in the camp.

    25 Q. Did you hear anything that night?

  13. 1 A. Yes, and that is what still causes me

    2 problems. It is voices, incomprehensible voices and

    3 some blunt blows, such sounds. On that night, between

    4 the 12th and the 13th of July, I could not really

    5 establish where they came from since we were, as I

    6 said, in the compound of the Dutch Battalion in

    7 Potocari, and it was a building which was additionally

    8 reinforced with concrete slabs by the Dutch soldiers in

    9 order to improve their safety in case they were

    10 attacked, in case the Dutch soldiers were attacked.

    11 That night, I repeat, I heard but -- I heard

    12 some shots but not very clearly. I heard some screams,

    13 noise, but I could not really say which direction they

    14 all came from, these sounds came from, because the

    15 whole building was plated with those concrete slabs.

    16 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown

    17 Exhibit 5/2, and also if you have available 5/6.

    18 Q. Mr. Mandzic, you stated to the Judges that

    19 you were inside the compound that night, in a building

    20 that had been reinforced against gunfire by concrete

    21 slabs. Could you indicate on this photograph where you

    22 stayed that night, on the 12th of July?

    23 A. On the 12th of July I was in the Dutch base

    24 or, rather, the building that was -- that the

    25 officers -- where the officers were quartered, and

  14. 1 according to this photograph, it is here [indicated].

    2 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the

    3 witness is pointing to the building which is in the

    4 uppermost left-hand corner of the yellow square, the

    5 square which delineates the UN base.

    6 If the witness could now be shown

    7 Exhibit 5/6.

    8 Q. Mr. Mandzic, do you recognise this building?

    9 A. I do, yes. This is an industrial plant, the

    10 11 of March Factory, which was one of the Energoinvest

    11 units in this building, and in front of it by its fence

    12 posts is the road, Bratunac-Potocari-Srebrenica. On

    13 the 11th, 12th, 13th of July, there were tens of

    14 thousands of people forcibly amassed in that area.

    15 I can also say that in this building or,

    16 rather, in this hall, in this plant, that I was there

    17 on the 11th of July, and I was there until 9.00, until

    18 I was called to go to the Commander of the Dutch

    19 Battalion.

    20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mandzic. We've finished with

    21 those exhibits. Let's move ahead in time, Mr. Mandzic,

    22 to the 13th of July, and if you can tell the Judges

    23 rumours you were beginning to hear on that morning in

    24 respect of the men, of the Bosniak men who were present

    25 in and around Potocari.

  15. 1 A. Yes. That morning, the 13th of July, 1995,

    2 several acquaintances of mine who are no longer alive,

    3 that is, people who did not survive the Srebrenica

    4 Calvary, approached me and said, "They killed some

    5 people last night." The soldiers of the Army of

    6 Republika Srpska were taking away men to nearby houses

    7 and killed them there outside the camp in which there

    8 was some 25.000 expellees. Nobody could sleep because

    9 screams could be heard all night long.

    10 And the man went on with his story and his

    11 experience. He have said, "So-and-so," and then he

    12 would mention a place near Skelani at Dobrak, was

    13 trying to kill himself, to commit suicide all night to

    14 prevent the soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska

    15 laying hands on him, but they, nevertheless, prevented

    16 him from that and then took it out on him.

    17 I heard identical stories, shortly

    18 afterwards, from people who, that morning, managed to

    19 jump over the fence where the Dutch soldiers were. And

    20 I was really scared, like everybody else.

    21 After that I went to see the deputy commander

    22 of the Dutch Battalion and asked him to try to put a

    23 stop to this type of evacuation, which was not

    24 evacuation, properly speaking; it was a very cruel

    25 deportation. And I remember that Major Franken, who

  16. 1 was replacing Commander Karremans, said then,

    2 "Impossible." And I also remember what he said in

    3 English. He said, "I'm doing my best."

    4 Q. Please carry on, Mr. Mandzic, if you wish.

    5 If you have more to say to the Judges, I don't want to

    6 interrupt you.

    7 A. Right. Then I asked Major Franken, "Well,

    8 what next? Where's the way out of this? Because they

    9 will separate all men. Will any of the men survive?

    10 Shall we have any proof that people ever lived in this

    11 area, that there were some people there?" And Major

    12 Franken said, "Yes, let's do something. Let's try to

    13 make a list, at least in the camp, if we cannot do it

    14 outside the camp."

    15 So I began to do that straight away. I

    16 entered those destroyed structures, those plants of the

    17 factory in the camp, and with some other men I started

    18 compiling the list mostly of the male population

    19 between the ages of 17, 18 to 70 onward.

    20 I must also say that I had some trouble as I

    21 was compiling that list, first of all because some of

    22 the people from my -- from the same place were afraid

    23 of seeing their names on that list. I remember some

    24 said, "Right. We trust you, we know you, but what if

    25 our name is on this list and the army of the Republika

  17. 1 Srpska gets hold of it?" But we did manage to make a

    2 list of men in that camp between the ages of 18 and 80,

    3 and there were 239 men on that list, even though there

    4 were many more of them in that camp, but for reasons

    5 that I mentioned, because people were afraid to see

    6 their name on the list, that the army of the Republika

    7 Srpska would get hold of that list, and they refused to

    8 give us names.

    9 I turned that list over to Major Franken and

    10 I was also faced with a major dilemma: What if this

    11 list with 239 names, what if the army of the Republika

    12 Srpska lays its hand on this list of 239 names? But

    13 Major Franken said, "Well, don't worry. If nothing

    14 else, I will put that list in my trousers and won't let

    15 them search me."

    16 And that is how it was. That list exists to

    17 this day, but those men are no longer alive. And it is

    18 of no help to their families, because they are still

    19 grieving and still searching for all those missing

    20 people.

    21 Q. Mr. Mandzic, the evacuation outside the UN

    22 compound, the movement of this population, what time

    23 did it finish on the 13th of July?

    24 A. In late afternoon, as far as I can remember,

    25 sometime around 1900.

  18. 1 Q. The buses and trucks that were moving these

    2 people, were you able to see those trucks at close

    3 quarters, the buses and trucks?

    4 A. Yes, I could. I was about 200 meters away

    5 from them. And because I moved around the camp, so

    6 sometimes I came as close as 50 meters and I could see

    7 inscriptions on those buses, so that it was -- the

    8 deportation had been planned, and I concluded it

    9 because I saw such a large number of buses and trucks

    10 which had arrived from outside, by and large from towns

    11 such as Bijeljina, Banja Luka, Bratunac, and so on. I

    12 know -- I remember, that is, the inscriptions on these

    13 buses: Sembreija Transport from Bijeljina. That was a

    14 transporting company, a bussing company from before the

    15 war. Drina Trans, another bussing company from Zvornik

    16 which is still in operation. A bussing company from

    17 Banja Luka, I believe, called Auto Transport, and so on

    18 and so forth.

    19 Q. Did you manage to observe the state of the

    20 civilian population that were on those buses?

    21 A. Yes, yes. I could see from a distance of

    22 some 50 to 100 meters those were mothers, wives,

    23 sisters, crying, screaming, tearing their hair off,

    24 because they had boarded the buses and could leave, yet

    25 their next of kin -- their children, their fathers,

  19. 1 brothers, husbands, and so on -- were not with them,

    2 even though they, on the 11th and the 12th of July, not

    3 to mention all the days before that, had been together,

    4 and that was a separation which I think hurt very

    5 badly. And to this day, if you could see those women,

    6 if you could see how they live, under what conditions,

    7 and their sorrow, which persists to this day, you would

    8 understand it all.

    9 Q. You mentioned earlier that there were people

    10 that had been wounded that were inside the compound in

    11 Potocari. What happened to those people on the 13th of

    12 July?

    13 A. Yes. A group of wounded was evacuated that

    14 day. But another group of people, who I believe had

    15 sustained more severe injuries, who were awaiting

    16 operations, they could not be transported and they

    17 stayed behind in Potocari.

    18 Q. On that day you mentioned earlier in your

    19 testimony that there were a large number of VRS

    20 personnel in and around the compound. Do you recall if

    21 any VRS soldiers or officers came into the compound at

    22 Potocari?

    23 A. Yes, I do remember. As I said -- as I have

    24 said, and I shall repeat it, it was already in the

    25 early morning hours of the 12th of July. The army of

  20. 1 Republika Srpska entered Potocari and amongst the

    2 civilian population, with a view to intimidating them,

    3 especially, and taking away the male population, so

    4 when the evacuation was on its way, there was no

    5 choice. Men as of the age of 12 to one side, women and

    6 children to the other. But on the 13th of July, I

    7 remember how a VRS officer came into the camp, Momir

    8 Nikolic. Before the war he was an educator in

    9 Bratunac.

    10 Momir Nikolic, as he said, was tasked with

    11 checking who were those wounded, what age groups they

    12 belonged to, and how had they sustained their wounds.

    13 I was not far from him when this officer, Momir

    14 Nikolic, asked a Bosniak who had been gravely wounded

    15 and was awaiting for the surgical operation in the

    16 camp, "Where were you wounded? And that Bosniak did

    17 not reply, yet Nikolic persisted, "You were wounded in

    18 combat, and as such, you may not be evacuated,

    19 transported for further treatment."

    20 He also approached some other wounded, and in

    21 the same way he asked them where they had been wounded,

    22 where had they spent the time of the war, and so on and

    23 so forth.

    24 And also that day in the camp I saw another

    25 officer of the army of Republika Srpska in glasses,

  21. 1 aged less than 40, and I recognised him on a slide

    2 yesterday. I would recognise him, but I can't remember

    3 his name.

    4 MR. CAYLEY: Could the witness be shown

    5 Exhibit 43, please.

    6 Q. So it would be correct to say that

    7 Mr. Nikolic was actively involved in deciding which of

    8 the wounded could be moved from the UN compound and

    9 which of the wounded would remain in the UN compound?

    10 A. Yes, yes, quite so. He was determining which

    11 group of the wounded would be transported for further

    12 medical treatment and which ones of the wounded would

    13 stay behind in Potocari.

    14 Yes, this is that officer of the army of

    15 Republika Srpska who came to the camp of Dutch soldiers

    16 on the 13th of July, and on the 11th and the 12th of

    17 July attended, was present at the meeting in Bratunac.

    18 MR. CAYLEY: For the purposes of the record,

    19 the witness is referring to a photograph of an

    20 individual wearing glasses in Exhibit 43.

    21 Q. If you know, Mr. Mandzic, what was the

    22 position of Mr. Nikolic in the VRS? Do you know?

    23 A. Some people introduced him as a colonel, but

    24 I'm not sure that that was indeed so. As a colonel of

    25 a unit whose operational zone was Bratunac.

  22. 1 Q. And that's all you know about Mr. Nikolic's

    2 position, is it?

    3 A. Yes. Rather, they called him Colonel and

    4 that his zone of operations was the municipality of

    5 Bratunac.

    6 Q. Now, the movement of the population, do you

    7 recall what time the movement of the population that

    8 was still in the UN compound finished on the 13th of

    9 July?

    10 A. Yes. Sometime around 1900 on the 13th of

    11 July, the Dutch soldiers' camp, where there were still

    12 some 5.000 people, but it was practically empty, the

    13 army of Republika Srpska ordered all the expellees, all

    14 the expelled, to come out of the camp so after 1900

    15 there was only a small group of severely wounded, and a

    16 group of 27 Bosniaks who had been working for UNPROFOR

    17 or MSF as their local staff were left in the camp.

    18 Q. Now, since these were individuals that had

    19 been in the compound rather than outside the compound,

    20 were you able to observe more closely what was actually

    21 happening with these individuals that were being

    22 expelled?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you saw taking

    25 place?

  23. 1 A. I can, yes. On the 12th of July and on the

    2 13th of July too, I saw and I watched women and small

    3 children board buses, trucks, and the scene which I

    4 described, women crying, children screaming, those

    5 women tearing their hair off, in pain because their

    6 next of kin had been separated from them. I could see

    7 that they were evacuating or, rather, deporting women

    8 and children.

    9 And in the same manner they evacuated or,

    10 rather, deported men from the Dutch Battalion compound,

    11 where there were some 5.000 people. One could

    12 invariably see one or two soldiers who would announce,

    13 "Now, this group. That group goes now. One hundred,

    14 200, 300, move," and so on and so forth.

    15 Q. Now, you say that you saw men being deported,

    16 and by the manner of your evidence, are you saying that

    17 the men were being separated?

    18 A. Yes. I watched from a distance of some 50 to

    19 100 metres away how only women with small children

    20 boarded the buses, with children up -- from infants

    21 from up to 12, 13 years of age. I saw those women

    22 screaming, moaning, crying, tearing their hair off.

    23 On that day, the 13th of July, on the 12th of

    24 July, the same scene repeated over and over again.

    25 Everybody reacted in the same way. And I could see

  24. 1 that male individuals, as of the age of 12 or 13, had

    2 been separated by force from their next of kin, from

    3 their families.

    4 Q. Who was carrying out the separation of the

    5 men from their families?

    6 A. Well, soldiers of the VRS.

    7 Q. Now, speaking of these VRS soldiers, did you

    8 observe the uniforms and the insignia of these

    9 soldiers?

    10 A. Yes, I did. On the first day, on the 11th of

    11 July, and on the following day, on the 12th of July, as

    12 I was coming back from Bratunac on my way to Potocari,

    13 I could observe hundreds of soldiers standing next to

    14 the road, wearing uniforms, brand-new uniforms, I might

    15 say. Some of them were wearing the insignia of the

    16 VRS. Some didn't have any insignia at all. But they

    17 did have new military clothing.

    18 I could also hear various dialects, very just

    19 accents which did not resemble the dialect, the

    20 Ijekavski dialect, which is used by Bosnian Serbs in

    21 the region of Podrinje in Eastern Bosnia.

    22 Q. Let's now move ahead in time. The compound

    23 is now empty. All of the refugees have gone. You're

    24 remaining with members of the Dutch Battalion.

    25 On the 17th of July, you signed a declaration

  25. 1 with Major Franken.

    2 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness can now be shown

    3 Exhibit 47, which is the last new exhibit for this

    4 witness. There are four exhibits. There's 47A; 47B;

    5 47C, which is the French translation; and 47D, which is

    6 the B/C/S translation.

    7 Mr. President, if I can explain in respect of

    8 this exhibit. There are, in fact, two English

    9 translations. The reason for that is that one of them,

    10 which I'll show on the ELMO, was a field translation

    11 that was done at the time, on the 17th of the July, in

    12 order to facilitate the signature of the representative

    13 of the Dutch Battalion. There are some inaccuracies in

    14 that translation. We have the original version there

    15 B/C/S, in the Bosnian language, and we have had that

    16 translated into English. So there is now an official

    17 English translation. But in order that the Court, as

    18 it were, sees all of the documents, there are, as I

    19 said, two English translations.

    20 Q. Now, Mr. Mandzic, first of all --

    21 MR. CAYLEY: Before I ask Mr. Mandzic any

    22 questions, can you put 47B on the ELMO? If you could

    23 move it up slightly.

    24 Q. Now, Mr. Mandzic, is this the English version

    25 of this declaration that you signed on the 17th of

  26. 1 July?

    2 A. Yes, it is.

    3 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could now -- if

    4 you could now put on the ELMO, I think it's 47D, which

    5 is the version in the witness's language. If you could

    6 turn the page.

    7 Q. This, Mr. Mandzic, is the version that you

    8 signed in your own language, and indeed Major Franken

    9 and a representative of the Bosnian Serb civilian

    10 authorities; is that correct?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Thank you.

    13 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be given

    14 the version in his own language. That's fine.

    15 The French and English translations, Your

    16 Honours, are the ones I would like you to follow, the

    17 French being 47C and the official English being 47A.

    18 Q. Now, Mr. Mandzic, a few questions about this

    19 document. In the second paragraph, the document states

    20 that: "On 12 July 1995, in the Fontana Hotel in

    21 Bratunac, at our request negotiations were conducted

    22 between the representatives of our civilian authorities

    23 and the representatives of the Republika Srpska

    24 civilian authorities and the army regarding the

    25 evacuation of our civilian population from the

  27. 1 Srebrenica enclave."

    2 Mr. Mandzic, is it accurate that that meeting

    3 was called at your request on the 12th of July, 1995?

    4 A. No, it is not accurate. You will remember

    5 that I said yesterday, and you could see it clearly on

    6 the video, that nobody from the Bosniak side ever

    7 requested negotiations, neither on the 11th, nor on the

    8 12th of July. It was done upon the insistence of the

    9 VRS, and it was UNPROFOR who organised the first

    10 meeting in Bratunac on the 11th of July. Again, I must

    11 say these negotiations were not conducted at the

    12 request of the Bosniak side. We never requested these

    13 negotiations to take place.

    14 Q. If we could move down through this document.

    15 We get to a section which says: "At the end of the

    16 negotiations between the two sides, the following was

    17 agreed," and the first paragraph states: "Our civilian

    18 population could stay in the enclave or move out,

    19 depending on the wish of each individual."

    20 Now, Mr. Mandzic, is this an accurate

    21 reflection of what actually happened on the 12th and

    22 13th of July?

    23 A. No, it is not really. Not a single word from

    24 this paragraph reflects the events that were taking

    25 place on the 12th and the 13th of July and the

  28. 1 following days as well. The International Committee

    2 for the Red Cross registered thousands of people who

    3 are still listed as missing.

    4 I would like to tell Your Honours, to state

    5 here before this Chamber, that the Bosniak

    6 representatives did not take part in the signing of

    7 this statement, and I assume neither did the

    8 representatives of the Dutch Battalion do so. This

    9 statement was a ready-made document which was prepared

    10 by the military and civilian authorities of the

    11 Republika Srpska, and it was presented to us as an

    12 ultimatum. It was presented also to the Dutch

    13 Battalion, as well as the Bosniak representatives, as

    14 an ultimatum.

    15 Q. Now, in the third paragraph following that

    16 paragraph it states: "It was arranged that the

    17 evacuation would be carried out by the army and police

    18 of Republika Srpska and that UNPROFOR would supervise

    19 and provide an escort for the evacuation."

    20 Is that statement an accurate reflection of

    21 what actually happened on the ground on the 12th and

    22 13th of July?

    23 A. This paragraph is not an accurate reflection

    24 of the events and the facts that took place in Potocari

    25 and on the way from Potocari to Kladanj either.

  29. 1 Kladanj is a small town in the area of Eastern Bosnia.

    2 It is actually the first town in the territory that was

    3 held by the soldiers of the BH army since 1995 -- 1992,

    4 I'm sorry, and this is where the Bosniak population was

    5 deported to in July 1995.

    6 As I said, this does not reflect the events,

    7 because the Dutch Battalion Major complained that on

    8 the night of the 11th and the 12th of July, had

    9 requisitioned almost every single vehicle and used them

    10 for deportation of the Bosniak population from

    11 Srebrenica. He could practically no longer send any

    12 soldier anywhere. They could not expose themselves to

    13 risk of an attack by the forces of the VRS.

    14 Q. So you're stating that in reality, there were

    15 very few convoys that were actually properly escorted

    16 by UNPROFOR?

    17 A. Only on the first day, on the 12th of July.

    18 On that day, the officers of the Dutch Battalion did

    19 send soldiers and vehicles to escort some of the buses

    20 carrying Bosniaks who were actually being deported by

    21 the VRS to the area of Kladanj. However, on the way

    22 from Potocari to Kladanj, according to Major Franken,

    23 his soldiers ran into obstacles that had been put up by

    24 soldiers of the VRS. They harassed them. They

    25 requisitioned their vehicles, vehicles belonging to the

  30. 1 UNPROFOR forces. So they were unable to accomplish

    2 that mission.

    3 So on the following day, on the 13th of July,

    4 the deportation was carried out mostly without any

    5 escort or presence of the UNPROFOR forces.

    6 Q. Now, the very last paragraph, and this may be

    7 something that you can't comment upon because you were

    8 not actually with any of the convoys, but the last

    9 paragraph states: "No incidents were provoked by any

    10 side during the evacuation, and the Serbian side

    11 observed all the regulations of the Geneva Conventions

    12 and the International Law of War."

    13 Then there is added, I think, a sentence by

    14 Major Franken: "As far as the convoys escorted by the

    15 UN forces were concerned."

    16 What do you say about that, Mr. Mandzic?

    17 A. Yes. As I already told Your Honours, the

    18 Serbian representatives, Deronjic, who represented the

    19 civilian government, appeared with this ready-made

    20 statement, and he made an ultimatum requesting that

    21 this statement be signed. However, he was very well

    22 aware of the situation. He knew that between the

    23 13th and the 17th of July in Bratunac, a group of about

    24 several dozen wounded, whom I said had been evacuated

    25 on the 13th of July, had been retained. He also knew

  31. 1 that there was still 27 Bosniaks in the camp, in

    2 addition to several other dozens of severely wounded

    3 persons. So that's what he had in mind. He said that

    4 we should sign the statement because human lives were

    5 at stake. So this was a kind of condition for all

    6 these persons that I have mentioned, all these

    7 categories of persons that I have mentioned, that they

    8 would be released.

    9 You must be aware of the situation, of the

    10 position in which some 450 soldiers of the Dutch

    11 Battalion had found themselves in. I've read this

    12 statement several times; that is, I read it several

    13 times at the time. I looked Major Franken in the eye,

    14 and he knew very well that this statement by no means

    15 reflected the real situation on the ground and the

    16 tragedy that ensued and that had happened actually.

    17 It was very ironical and cynical to invoke

    18 the Geneva Conventions, the provision regulating human

    19 rights and so on and so forth, especially the

    20 provisions of the International Law of War, for

    21 example. But as I must stress once again, on those

    22 days of July 1995, we were alone. We were helpless.

    23 The world was silent. They didn't know what was going

    24 on in Srebrenica or Potocari, or what to do in

    25 Srebrenica and Potocari.

  32. 1 The International Community did not manage to

    2 send any representative of the International Red Cross,

    3 for example, UNHCR, United Nations to Srebrenica on

    4 that day. The only persons I know that had certain

    5 contacts were perhaps officers of the Dutch Battalion.

    6 He had perhaps contact with their command in the

    7 Netherlands, as well as other UNPROFOR commands in

    8 Bosnia. They were concerned about the fate of their

    9 soldiers. I, on the other hand, was concerned about

    10 the fate of my fellow citizens of Srebrenica. Of

    11 course, we didn't want any more blood to be shed, and

    12 we also wanted the soldiers of the Dutch Battalion to

    13 reach safely their homes. So we were all thinking in

    14 those lines.

    15 At that moment, Major Franken suggested, when

    16 he was presented with the statement by Deronjic, the

    17 representatives of the civilian authorities, that he

    18 adds this particular wording here: "As far as the

    19 convoys escorted by UN forces were concerned."

    20 This completely changed the meaning of this

    21 paragraph, and it actually meant that this statement

    22 could only refer to the evacuation as far as the

    23 persons escorted by the UN forces were concerned.

    24 According to what Dutch Battalion soldiers were saying

    25 on the 12th and the 13th of July, they managed to

  33. 1 escort only two or three buses as far as Kladanj and

    2 that was that. There were hundreds of other buses, but

    3 in respect of those buses, they couldn't do anything,

    4 because their vehicles had already been requisitioned

    5 by VRS troops, together with all their equipment.

    6 So in view of the situation and in view of

    7 what Major Franken said, I simply signed this

    8 statement.

    9 Please, Your Honours, members of this

    10 Honourable Chamber, do consider this statement as an

    11 ultimatum that was put to us by members of the VRS in

    12 those days of the month of July 1995, when tens of

    13 thousands of people had been deported.

    14 And we didn't know what had happened to

    15 them. They had perhaps reached their destination, but

    16 at that time their destination was unknown to us. We

    17 were completely unable to inform ourselves about the

    18 situation through the media, for example. By signing

    19 this statement, we had in mind the fate of thousands of

    20 people, namely, the wounded persons who were still in

    21 the Dutch Battalion camp, about 27 Bosniaks who were

    22 still there, and we also had in mind the fate of the

    23 Dutch Battalion soldiers who were there in the area.

    24 It is very cynical that this statement should

    25 mention anything about the provisions of the Geneva

  34. 1 Conventions and the International Law of War. However,

    2 it was our estimate at that time, and we were forced to

    3 sign it, because the fate of hundreds of people

    4 depended on our signature at that moment, despite the

    5 fact that we were actually not convinced that the fate

    6 of those hundreds of people and members of the Dutch

    7 battalion would have a positive outcome.

    8 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if you wish, we

    9 could take a break now. I have about five minutes of

    10 my examination-in-chief remaining.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I

    12 think it's a very good moment. I think our witness is

    13 already a bit tired, the interpreters, myself as well.

    14 We will have a 20-minute break and we shall resume

    15 after that.

    16 --- Recess taken at 10.53 a.m.

    17 --- On resuming at 11.20 a.m.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

    19 Mr. Cayley. We now had a break and I believe we've all

    20 recovered, or perhaps with a cup of coffee or something

    21 like that, and I think that we can now assume. So you

    22 have the floor.

    23 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

    24 Q. Mr. Mandzic, from the 17th of July until the

    25 21st of July, where did you find yourself?

  35. 1 A. At the command of the Dutch Battalion, in the

    2 compound that were several hundred Dutch soldiers there

    3 and 27 Bosniaks. I already said that those were people

    4 who worked for UNPROFOR as interpreters, and some

    5 others who worked for MSF. MSF is an organisation

    6 called Medecins Sans Frontieres.

    7 So we were in Potocari in the compound

    8 between the 11th and the 21st of July, 1200 hours. At

    9 that time we left Potocari, we left Srebrenica, and

    10 across the Bosnian-Yugoslav border. We crossed into

    11 the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

    12 that is, the first town across the border, Ljubovija,

    13 in the direction of Sabac, and then we moved on to

    14 Croatia. And on the 22nd, in the early morning hours,

    15 we arrived in Zagreb.

    16 Q. Now, you've just stated that the people who

    17 remained within the compound were members of the Dutch

    18 Battalion, various others, and some Bosniaks. Earlier

    19 you had stated that the man who accompanied you to the

    20 meeting on the 12th of July in the morning was Ibro

    21 Nuhanovic. You also stated in your evidence that Ibro

    22 subsequently disappeared. Can you tell the Court what

    23 you know happened to Ibro Nuhanovic and his family?

    24 A. Yes. Ibro Nuhanovic, before the war, he was

    25 the manager of a timber processing company in the area

  36. 1 of Srebrenica and Vlasenica. He had two sons, both

    2 students at the time, and his wife. On the 12th and

    3 13th of July, he was a member of the Bosniak

    4 delegation.

    5 As you know, I already said that on the 12th

    6 and 13th of July, Bosniaks were deported in large

    7 numbers and people were separated, men and women, and

    8 so the Serb party requested that Ibro's wife and son be

    9 deported. Ibro knew about this request, but, as a

    10 parent and husband, according to what he said, he

    11 simply could not watch, could not suffer this

    12 separation, because after the first time they were to

    13 part company would not know anything about each other.

    14 So he joined his son and wife, and left.

    15 Several days later, when we arrived in

    16 Zagreb, we learned that neither he nor his wife or son

    17 had not reached the territory held at the time by the

    18 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or even that his son, who

    19 survives, who is still alive, who is today alone and is

    20 suffering a great deal after he lost his father and

    21 mother and son [sic]. They looked for him -- he looked

    22 for them everywhere. He called even some people that

    23 his father and he knew before the war in the territory

    24 of the Republic of Srpska to ask them if they knew

    25 anything about his father or mother or his brother, but

  37. 1 nobody could tell him anything definite.

    2 On a number of occasions I had the

    3 opportunity to talk to Ibro's son, who survived and who

    4 was in that group of 27 Bosniaks. And in those

    5 conversations I could see that today Ibro's son is an

    6 educated, an accomplished man. He works for IPTF, for

    7 UN forces, in the area of Tuzla. But he is a broken

    8 man, because he has no family and he is simply unable

    9 to start a normal life and live a life worthy of men

    10 like other people who did not suffer such losses as

    11 Hasim Nuhanovic, Ibro's son.

    12 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further

    13 questions of the witness, so I can now offer him for

    14 cross-examination.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    16 very much, Mr. Cayley.

    17 Now, Mr. Mandzic, you will answer the

    18 questions which counsel for the Defence, I believe

    19 Mr. Petrusic, or perhaps Mr. Visnjic -- no,

    20 Mr. Petrusic will have to ask of you.

    21 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

    22 Q. Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,

    23 Mr. Mandzic. I'm sorry, I did not get your surname

    24 right. Excuse me.

    25 My first question is whether you can tell us,

  38. 1 Mr. Mandzic, something about how did the Serbs and

    2 Muslims live in the municipality of Srebrenica before

    3 the armed conflicts broke out.

    4 A. Yes, I can tell you that. I am glad that you

    5 asked me that question. Before the war,

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina was a multi-ethnic community with

    7 three constituent peoples, Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats,

    8 and other citizens. In such a multi-ethnic society

    9 life was indeed harmonious. There was mutual respect

    10 for religions or traditions of other peoples. There

    11 were no, and I repeat it again, there were no ethnic or

    12 religious obstacles, barriers between people. People

    13 socialised, people helped one another, people worked

    14 together. And Srebrenica was another such example of

    15 good multi-ethnic coexistence in the territory of

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the territory of the formal

    17 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

    18 Q. In 1991, the first multi-party elections took

    19 place in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and a short time before

    20 that political parties had been set up and various

    21 political organisations. Until then, until the

    22 elections or after the elections, excuse me, after the

    23 elections, political authorities were to be constituted

    24 in the municipality of Srebrenica. You were in

    25 Srebrenica, as far as I could understand, when you gave

  39. 1 your particulars to this Tribunal, so you were there.

    2 So could you tell us something about how these new

    3 authorities, how the new government was constituted

    4 after these first multi-party elections?

    5 A. Thank you. I've understood your question.

    6 The first multi-party elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    7 including the local ones for the municipality of

    8 Srebrenica, took place in the autumn of 1990, not in

    9 1991. After the results of the elections were

    10 announced in Srebrenica, a multi-ethnic government was

    11 constituted on the basis of the census and the results

    12 of the elections.

    13 It needs to be pointed out that Bosniak

    14 political parties had the majority in the government

    15 and in the Municipal Assembly of Srebrenica.

    16 Q. Mr. Mandzic, you were a councilman in the

    17 municipality of Srebrenica, weren't you?

    18 A. No, I was not a councilman at that time, and

    19 you can see that in the Official Gazette of

    20 Srebrenica. You can see there how many councilmen were

    21 there in the municipal hall and who were those

    22 councilmen. I was not, but I was elected to the

    23 Municipal Assembly in 1997, and I'm now the mayor of

    24 the municipality and the councilman.

    25 Q. Oh, I see. So those are the elections in

  40. 1 1997. In Srebrenica at that time, the Serbs were a

    2 minority, according to some sources. They accounted

    3 for some 25 to 30 per cent of the population.

    4 A. Yes. That is correct.

    5 Q. At that time, they did not make up part of

    6 the municipal government, did they?

    7 A. No. That is not correct. They were in the

    8 government. They were in the executive bodies of the

    9 Municipal Assembly. Let me explain this. After this

    10 multi-ethnic government and even before that we had

    11 multi-ethnic authorities when we still had a

    12 single-party system. We had authorities on the

    13 multi-ethnic basis and all the establishments and all

    14 the institutions, functions, and businesses, and

    15 everything else was governed by multi-ethnic

    16 principle.

    17 Q. But at that time, representatives, Muslim

    18 representatives in the Municipal Assembly, did they

    19 raise the question of the mayor of the municipality who

    20 was to be elected on the basis of that key which was

    21 widely applied in our country before and after those

    22 elections? So that was Zekic who was proposed to

    23 become ...

    24 A. Well, let me repeat it once again, that I was

    25 not a councilman. I did not have a seat in the

  41. 1 Municipal Assembly at the time. But as far as I can

    2 remember, the president of the Municipal Assembly was

    3 to be elected from amongst the Bosniaks, that is,

    4 Bosniak political parties, because he needed -- he

    5 needed a majority in the assembly.

    6 Q. So can one say that in 1991 it already began

    7 some fermentation amongst the population, or, rather,

    8 among the political leaders and then this siphoned over

    9 to the population?

    10 A. No. In the multi-party system, there may

    11 have been some slight differences, but it did not find

    12 its reflection in the coexistence of the multi-ethnic

    13 community of Srebrenica. That is, people continued to

    14 live together harmoniously, to cohabit, and I can

    15 mention Skelani. In Skelani, Bosniak Serbs all the

    16 others, we went to school together, worked together,

    17 visited one another, were family friends and all that

    18 until 1991.

    19 Q. But, Mr. Mandzic, why then did the Serb

    20 population leave Srebrenica in 1992?

    21 A. They began to move out of Srebrenica then,

    22 yes, because in early spring and even before spring, I

    23 should say, it was in February that some local

    24 politicians, Serb politicians, began to request the

    25 constitution of a monoethnic Serb assembly and

  42. 1 monoethnic Serb municipality of Skelani and some other

    2 monoethnic municipalities within the municipality of

    3 Srebrenica. I do not know whether this august court

    4 understands me.

    5 That is the territory of 529 kilometres

    6 square of the municipality of Srebrenica. There were

    7 some 38.000 inhabitants there. And some local Serb

    8 politicians in the municipality of Srebrenica wanted to

    9 partition the municipality of Srebrenica according to

    10 the ethnic principle, which simply could not be done

    11 because people were mixed. There were next-door

    12 neighbours you had in towns. In one and the same

    13 building you would have Serbs and Bosniaks and others,

    14 so that the majority of people there, and in my

    15 opinion, this was not really a very sensible request

    16 and could only deepen the misunderstanding between

    17 people there.

    18 Q. So Serbs were leaving Srebrenica at the time?

    19 A. According to what I can remember, a small or,

    20 rather, a large part of them did leave the town area

    21 itself, which had about 5.000 inhabitants. They were

    22 leaving the town by actually moving away their families

    23 to the towns such as Bajina Basta and other towns in

    24 Yugoslavia itself.

    25 We wanted to know why they were doing that,

  43. 1 because no one was doing them any harm, but they would

    2 simply say, "Well, the times are somehow uncertain. We

    3 don't know what's going to happen. There might be a

    4 war," and so on.

    5 Q. What about the municipal authorities, the

    6 political structures who were in power at that time?

    7 Did they do anything to prevent this movement of

    8 population from the urban area of Srebrenica?

    9 A. Yes. Yes, they did. First of all, it was

    10 the former president of the Municipal Assembly, Besim

    11 Besovic who acted at that time. He put a lot of

    12 personal effort in visiting various locations, seeing

    13 people, asking them not to panic, telling them that

    14 they had been living in the area together for hundreds

    15 of years and that they were capable of surmounting even

    16 this crisis, and he would tell them that there was no

    17 need for anyone to move away.

    18 However, I must stress that at that time,

    19 because the Serbs were leaving, some Bosniaks were

    20 leaving as well. Actually, it was the Bosniaks who had

    21 left the town area in March and April 1992. So, sir,

    22 let us be clear. The town of Srebrenica, in the month

    23 of April, was abandoned, first of all, by Bosniaks. It

    24 is true that part of Serbs had already moved their

    25 families away, but in the meantime, they had returned.

  44. 1 However, the majority of Bosniaks who lived in the town

    2 area itself left the area at that time and, of course,

    3 they haven't come back to this very date.

    4 Q. Mr. Mandzic, at that time we see the

    5 establishment of armed forces in Potocari, for example,

    6 Sucaskin [phoen] And other villages, under the

    7 leadership the Naser Oric, Zulfo Tursunovic, and

    8 others. Do you have any knowledge about that?

    9 A. I think we should move back in time a little

    10 and see about the cause. It is true that the

    11 consequence was the formation of certain village

    12 guards.

    13 Q. Please allow me, Mr. Mandzic, to repeat the

    14 question. I think you should answer the question as it

    15 was put to you.

    16 A. In view of the fact that in early April

    17 paramilitary units of Arkan and some other units such

    18 as White Swans arrived in Bratunac and forced the

    19 Bosniak population to leave the town and surrounding

    20 areas, the same happened in Srebrenica where Arkan's

    21 and Sesan's units, with the connivance of certain

    22 Serbian politicians, entered the town itself and caused

    23 the Bosniak population to withdraw further into the

    24 interior part of the territory, into some remote

    25 villages. So those paramilitary units, most of which

  45. 1 had come from the neighbouring country, that is, the

    2 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, attacked the Bosniak

    3 villages.

    4 So as a result of that, as a consequence of

    5 that, the population were forced to defend themselves.

    6 And it is true that in certain villages, there were

    7 some village guards but which were not very well

    8 organised. Their task was mainly to protect the

    9 population from the exodus.

    10 Q. Then we see the formation of the protected

    11 area and an agreement on demilitarisation was also

    12 signed.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Will the interpreter say when

    14 there is a question and when there is an answer,

    15 because it is always the same voice and we don't know

    16 when it stops.

    17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    18 Q. It is the year of 1993. Relevant

    19 UN resolutions were passed and the area was declared a

    20 safe haven, and an agreement on the demilitarisation of

    21 the zone was signed between General Halilovic and

    22 General Mladic, General Halilovic being the Commander

    23 of the BH army.

    24 That enclave, the safe area of Srebrenica,

    25 was it ever truly demilitarised, Mr. Mandzic?

  46. 1 A. Mostly it was. First of all, all of the

    2 heavy artillery was handed over to the Protection

    3 Forces in the presence, as far as I can remember and

    4 according to some other people who lived in the area,

    5 of some representatives of the VRS. An agreement was

    6 signed, and the heavy weapons were handed over. In

    7 addition to that, some light weaponry was also handed

    8 over. This could be seen by everybody who lived in the

    9 enclave.

    10 There used to be a huge pile of weapons next

    11 to the PTT building, and the light weaponry was mainly

    12 handed over to the UNPROFOR forces, but I don't know

    13 what they did with it, whether they destroyed it or

    14 what.

    15 Q. Was the command of the 28th Division, which

    16 was commanded by Mr. Oric, quartered in Srebrenica?

    17 A. Legally speaking, I can say that it did not

    18 exist there at that time. In the enclave, there were

    19 no armed forces. In the month of September in 1995, I

    20 did see something happening in Tuzla. I know that the

    21 28th Division was established there by General Delic.

    22 But it happened only several months after the takeover

    23 of the enclave by the VRS.

    24 Q. The year of 1995?

    25 A. Yes. In 1995 there was a review of the said

  47. 1 division in Tuzla by the commander of the BH army,

    2 Rasim Delic.

    3 And let me mention one other fact. From

    4 January of 1993, I was no longer a member of the armed

    5 forces; I was only a teacher and I worked in the field

    6 of education.

    7 Q. Could you explain to us, Mr. Mandzic, because

    8 I trust that you are familiar with the situation that

    9 was taking place after July 1995, and even before

    10 that. In the column that was formed in the village of

    11 Susnjari in the night between the 10th and 11th of

    12 July, there were at least 5.000 armed men. How did

    13 they end up there, bearing in mind the fact that the

    14 area had been demilitarised?

    15 A. Thank you for your question. First of all, I

    16 must tell that I was not present in the village of

    17 Susnjari at the time. I said that the demilitarisation

    18 of the enclave had been mostly finished, but, however,

    19 there were certain individuals who had their personal

    20 weapon licence for hunting rifles and some personal

    21 arms that they had kept as a souvenir in most of the

    22 cases. So one could see such individuals in

    23 Srebrenica, and elsewhere, and even groups of such

    24 people, but they were groups of civilians who had kept

    25 their personal weapons. But it was by no means, you

  48. 1 know, hundreds of people. One could perhaps check the

    2 record of the police department in Srebrenica to see

    3 how many individuals indeed had weapon licences, and I

    4 think it would bring us to the number of, I don't know,

    5 somewhere between 500 and 1.000 individuals. Those

    6 were the people who had licences for their weapons, and

    7 I don't know anything about any other people with

    8 weapons.

    9 Those groups of people had kept weapons in

    10 order to protect their villages in such difficult

    11 situations. They were members of small, unorganised

    12 village guards which were not under any military

    13 control, properly speaking.

    14 Q. As far as I can understand what you're

    15 saying, those weapons were -- it was possible to obtain

    16 those weapons through regular purchase, according to

    17 our legislation.

    18 A. Before the war, you mean, yes.

    19 Q. Yes, yes. I'm referring to hunting weapons.

    20 A. However, not every citizen could obtain such

    21 weapons. I remember that there were requests, dozens

    22 of requests coming from, for example, a particular

    23 local community, but only 10 people would end up

    24 getting their licences.

    25 Q. What about automatic weapons, such as the

  49. 1 infantry is using in the army? Such weapons were not

    2 kept. That is, I want to say that no licences could be

    3 issued for this type of weapons.

    4 A. No, of course not.

    5 Q. Let us turn to the village of Slapovici and

    6 the 8th of July. Were there any armed formations in

    7 that village at that time?

    8 A. I don't know. All I know is that on the 6th

    9 of July, units of the VRS ran over the checkpoint in

    10 Zeleni Jadar that was met by UNPROFOR forces, and they

    11 continued advancing in the direction of the village of

    12 Slapovici, where there were several thousands of

    13 refugees who had been displaced as early as in 1992 and

    14 1993 from the areas such as the area of Bratunac, for

    15 example.

    16 Q. Mr. Mandzic, the Swedish Housing Project had

    17 several hundreds of flats at their disposal?

    18 A. Yes, that is correct.

    19 Q. And how many people were accommodated there?

    20 A. In my estimate, between two and three

    21 thousand. The then-representatives of the municipality

    22 of Srebrenica probably have reliable figures to that

    23 effect.

    24 Q. Let us be precise. Those people at one point

    25 went from Slapovici to Potocari?

  50. 1 A. Yes, but there was a number of villages in

    2 the area where such columns were formed.

    3 Q. So you were referring to the columns of

    4 people that were formed in those villages?

    5 A. First of all, Slapovici, and then also some

    6 neighbouring villages: Pusmulici and so on. The total

    7 figure would be somewhere over 6.000, I think.

    8 Q. Mr. Mandzic, turning to the first and the

    9 second meeting held on the 10th and the 11th of July in

    10 Bratunac, could you please tell us something more, more

    11 than what you said yesterday in your testimony,

    12 concerning the role and the participation of General

    13 Krstic in that meeting?

    14 A. I can only say that General Krstic, who is

    15 present here today and who was here yesterday, was

    16 sitting next to General Mladic. However, he did not

    17 say anything about the modalities regarding the

    18 population and how they should be taken care of or

    19 evacuated. And it was not an evacuation; it was a

    20 deportation, as we all know. General Krstic kept

    21 silent. Whether by doing so he approved of what Mladic

    22 was saying, that will be upon the Judges to decide.

    23 Q. So you were present at the meeting, and on

    24 the following day, on the 12th of July, the meeting was

    25 attended by two other representatives of the Bosniak

  51. 1 population as well. Could you now tell us who it was

    2 who actually conducted the negotiations; members of

    3 UNPROFOR -- we saw a video to that effect -- or

    4 yourself?

    5 A. The negotiations were imposed on us by the

    6 Army of the Republika Srpska. They were imposed also

    7 on UNPROFOR. So the negotiations were mainly

    8 conducted, legally speaking, between the VRS and

    9 UNPROFOR. As for ourselves, we were merely a

    10 delegation which had the need and wish to express its

    11 concern about the situation, about the position in

    12 which more than 30.000 people had found themselves,

    13 about the humanitarian needs that they had at the time,

    14 and so on.

    15 However, at that meeting, if you remember

    16 what I said, I told General Mladic -- and it was quite

    17 a difficult moment; one had to muster a lot of courage

    18 to do so. I asked him, "Sir, whether, in view of the

    19 situation going on in the area of Srebrenica and

    20 Potocari, and bearing in mind the position of those

    21 30.000 refugees and displaced persons, I wish to know

    22 whether relevant international authorities -- UNHCR,

    23 ICRC -- have been informed about the situation of those

    24 people.

    25 Q. As regards the situation in the base itself

  52. 1 and the separation of males, was any distinction made

    2 in that respect? Could you be precise as to the

    3 criterion? Was it the working part of the population

    4 that was being separated or was it simply regardless of

    5 any criterion at all?

    6 A. As I have already stated before this

    7 Honourable Chamber, I saw women board buses, together

    8 with small children between 1 and 10 years of age, but

    9 I didn't see anybody else. And that is how I concluded

    10 that the units of the VRS had been separating menfolk

    11 from the rest of the population. Because mostly it was

    12 the elderly and the infirm who were in Potocari at that

    13 time, but there were also between 1.000 and 2.000 men

    14 who were there at that time.

    15 Let me just mention one example from a

    16 village of the Srebrenica municipality. There was a

    17 very old man who lived in my neighbourhood. He was 85

    18 and he was there in a wheelchair. He was a very simple

    19 man, a peasant, a shepherd, who had spent his life as a

    20 peasant, and he is no longer alive, and there are

    21 hundreds of people whose fate was the same.

    22 Q. Mr. Mandzic, you talked about Colonel Nikolic

    23 who entered the base at one point. Do you have any

    24 knowledge as to the fact of his military position?

    25 A. I'm not quite sure what you have in mind.

  53. 1 Q. Was he an officer from the infantry or did

    2 you perhaps come to a different conclusion? Did you

    3 perhaps think that he was an intelligence officer on an

    4 intelligence mission in the area? Because we have to

    5 bear in mind the fact that he was questioning those

    6 people, interrogating them.

    7 A. I really do not know which part of the army

    8 he belonged to. I can not say anything about that.

    9 Q. As regards the 12th of July, you said that

    10 units of the VRS were entering the area and you saw

    11 members of the VRS there at that time. Could you tell

    12 us if they had -- if they had some different insignia

    13 on their uniforms at that time?

    14 A. As I have already told Your Honours, I saw

    15 hundreds of soldiers. Some of them were wearing

    16 insignia, some did not. However, what I found rather

    17 surprising was the fact that there were hundreds of

    18 young soldiers who were there, who were there wearing

    19 uniforms, soldiers whom I had never seen in the area,

    20 and I believe I know the area very well. This is where

    21 I was born. I think that they would also have

    22 recognised me had they been from the area. But again,

    23 I must say that there were quite a few soldiers wearing

    24 no insignia at all, soldiers of the VRS, that is.

    25 Q. Was there any police? Could you make a

  54. 1 distinction at that time between the military and the

    2 police?

    3 A. I could not. I didn't see such insignia,

    4 whether they were the civilian or the military police.

    5 Q. Mr. Mandzic, the statement that was the

    6 subject of the last part of your examination-in-chief,

    7 could you tell us whether Major Franken, as one of the

    8 signatories of the statement, did he or anybody else

    9 request a new statement to be drafted? Do you

    10 understand my question?

    11 A. Yes, I do, and it's a very good question

    12 indeed. Looking with hindsight, it is true one could

    13 ask such a question. However, you have to bear in mind

    14 the situation at the time. There were about

    15 30.000 refugees. Their deportation was imminent and it

    16 was to be to an unknown direction. Also because of the

    17 fact that on the 12th and the 13th of July, units of

    18 the VRS forcibly stopped a convoy of wounded. The

    19 convoy was stopped in Bratunac. And there were quite a

    20 few severely wounded people, civilians, in that

    21 convoy.

    22 Also, on the 17th of July, on that day,

    23 dozens of severely wounded persons had been gathered in

    24 Potocari as well. Some of them were still bleeding. I

    25 can remember that a Dutch Battalion medical officer,

  55. 1 medical doctor, did perform certain very complex

    2 surgeries on those people.

    3 I also remember that during those days,

    4 soldiers of the VRS came to us, were checking on the

    5 population, intimidating the population. They were

    6 guarding the camp. And I know that Major Nikolic or,

    7 rather, Colonel Nikolic, as he was addressed to, I

    8 remember that they came personally to see about the

    9 people who had remained there. They wanted to know who

    10 they were, where they had come from, and what they were

    11 doing between 1992 and 1995. They inquired whether

    12 they knew Naser Oric and this other gentleman you

    13 mentioned. So a lot of pressure is being exerted on

    14 those people and myself as well. So we had no choice.

    15 The Serbian side wouldn't have it anyway. If

    16 they had wanted to have another declaration, another

    17 statement, they would have suggested that to us. They

    18 would have proposed another statement to be drafted

    19 which would reflect the effects on the ground.

    20 Q. But, Mr. Mandzic, the Serb delegation

    21 consisted only of Miroslav Deronjic at that point in

    22 time, on the 17th.

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And in the end, I'm quoting: "As regards the

    25 convoys escorted by the UN forces," end of quote. And

  56. 1 this significantly changes the content, and that is why

    2 I'm asking you, and I do not doubt that there was fear,

    3 but if one adds a sentence, which, as I have said,

    4 changes the substance of this text, couldn't one do

    5 something, make an effort to draw up a new statement,

    6 bearing in mind that at that meeting there were no

    7 representatives of the army or police, there were only

    8 civilian representatives, rather, Miroslav Deronjic as

    9 the representative of the civilian authority in the

    10 municipality of Srebrenica. He was the only one

    11 present. So could you answer that question with yes or

    12 no, please?

    13 A. The statement mentions other representatives

    14 of the military and civilian authority of the Republika

    15 Srpska, and the signatory, on behalf of all of them, is

    16 Deronjic.

    17 And I did see Deronjic in the Dutch battalion

    18 compound, but until that time, until that moment when

    19 Deronjic came to see Major Franken and when they

    20 invited me, they had been officers and soldiers of the

    21 VRS. From the place where we were sitting and where we

    22 signed that document, only five metres away were the

    23 guards of the Army of Republika Srpska. So that we had

    24 no say. We could have no saying in changing and

    25 rephrasing the document, with the exception of the last

  57. 1 sentence in the statement that as far as the convoys

    2 escorted by UN -- by UNPROFOR forces were concerned.

    3 Q. And finally, do you -- are you aware that

    4 from Bratunac, from the hospital which was run by the

    5 International Red Cross, the wounded were evacuated,

    6 rather, Muslim wounded were transferred from Bratunac,

    7 from the hospital where they had been hospitalised, and

    8 were transported to the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    9 and with the Red Cross escort?

    10 A. I do not know many details about this,

    11 whether all those wounded managed to survive. Most of

    12 them, yes, I mean, those wounded. But it was only on

    13 the 17th of July that in the presence of some

    14 representatives of the International Committee of the

    15 Red Cross, but this -- there was, believe me, a much

    16 larger number of wounded, of sick, and we know nothing

    17 about their fate to this day.

    18 Q. Mr. Mandzic, thank you.

    19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

    20 I have no further questions.

    21 A. Thank you too, counsel.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    23 Mr. Cayley.

    24 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    25 have no questions for the witness on re-examination. I

  58. 1 would simply ask to move a number of exhibits into

    2 evidence. They are Exhibit 40, which is the video of

    3 the second meeting in Bratunac; Exhibit 40A, "B," and

    4 "C," which are the English, French, and B/C/S

    5 translations of the transcript of that meeting;

    6 Exhibit 41, which is a still photograph of

    7 Colonel Karremans taken from that video; Exhibit 42,

    8 which is a still of Petar, a translator/interpreter;

    9 then there is Exhibit 43, which is the still of a VRS

    10 officer who the witness was unable to identify but did

    11 recognise being at the meeting; Exhibit 44, which is

    12 the still of General Mladic; Exhibit 45, which is the

    13 still of General Krstic; Exhibit 46, which is the still

    14 of a broken sign placed in front of the witness at the

    15 meeting. Then there is Exhibit 47, which composes of

    16 four parts, an English translation which is 47A; 47B,

    17 which is an English field translation; 47C, which is a

    18 French translation; and 47D, which is a B/C/S

    19 translation. And then finally Exhibit 48, which is the

    20 still of the Dutch Major, Major Boering. If I could

    21 apply for admission of all of those exhibits into

    22 evidence, please, Mr. President.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    24 Mr. Cayley. We shall continue in the presence of

    25 Mr. Mandzic, and we shall consider this at the end, but

  59. 1 I have to ask the Defence.

    2 Do you have any objections against the

    3 admission of this evidence?

    4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No,

    5 Mr. President.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] These

    7 exhibits will be admitted. Now I shall give the floor

    8 to my colleagues to see if they have any questions.

    9 Judge Riad, you have the floor.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    11 Mr. President. Yes, I do.

    12 Q. [In English] Good morning, Mr. Mandzic.

    13 A. Good morning.

    14 Q. I would like you to give me some more

    15 precision about what you have been telling us. First

    16 concerning the meeting in the Fontana Hotel, which you

    17 talked about with the Prosecutor and with Defence

    18 counsel, the meeting of the 12th of July at 10.00. You

    19 mentioned that General Krstic was sitting next to

    20 General Mladic and that he was silent.

    21 Was there any other manifestation in that

    22 meeting, whether from the side of General Krstic or the

    23 others, of approval of this or disapproval or threat or

    24 anything, or were they just silent witnesses. Could

    25 they have expressed anything in the presence of Mladic,

  60. 1 in your opinion?

    2 A. Thank you. Your Honours, when I speak about

    3 the second meeting which took place on the 12th of

    4 July, 1995 in the Fontana Hotel, yes, indeed, next to

    5 General Mladic was General Krstic. General Krstic and

    6 other officers representing the command of the Army of

    7 Republika Srpska were not adding anything to what

    8 General Mladic was saying.

    9 When he would say something -- I mean,

    10 General Mladic, when General Mladic turned to me and

    11 said, "Nesib, everything is in your hands. You can

    12 survive or you can vanish as people from the face of

    13 the earth because God Almighty has given us life and

    14 given us room to leave in peace, so it is logical that

    15 the survivability of a community, of a people is

    16 determined, decided by the Maker," and the other side

    17 of General Mladic then says, "Or you may vanish," none

    18 of the military representatives of the Army of

    19 Republika Srpska or the civilian authorities reacted to

    20 that. They went along with the General's idea that a

    21 local community might or the population might vanish,

    22 and that is -- that particular thing which instilled

    23 fear in the Bosniak delegation, in us, all along those

    24 days we felt this tremendous pressure to begin with

    25 because of the presence of all those officers and

  61. 1 soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska, but we were

    2 also under tremendous psychological pressure which was

    3 created by the encirclement and by the creation of a

    4 ghetto, I have to put it that way, in this small area

    5 in Potocari.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: Then I just gathered you

    7 repeated several times the word "vanish." You

    8 understood from it clearly that it was to vanish from

    9 this planet, from this world, or to vanish from

    10 Srebrenica or Bosnia? Was it vanishing in the meaning

    11 of extermination, in your opinion, or -- clearly was it

    12 extermination?

    13 A. That word I understood meant "to vanish"; the

    14 disappearance, the end of life of all those people,

    15 their execution. Somebody was depriving, was taking

    16 away their right to life. And that kind of power was

    17 then with the Army of Republika Srpska, their power,

    18 and General Mladic put it in so many words.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: How many were the other officers

    20 with General Mladic, and what was their rank, if you

    21 know, of General Krstic, or his importance in this

    22 group of Mladic?

    23 A. I remember that on the first night, I mean

    24 the 11th of July, sometime around 11.00 at night,

    25 General Mladic introduced all the officers who were

  62. 1 present, the officers of the Army of Republika Srpska;

    2 first, General Krstic, and he introduced him as a corps

    3 commander. At that time I was slightly taken aback

    4 that General Krstic was the corps commander, to begin

    5 with, because listening from time to time to radio

    6 news, and we had difficulty in hearing that in

    7 Srebrenica, while we lived in the enclave, because all

    8 the radio transmission equipment had been destroyed

    9 around us and the signal was very weak.

    10 But in 1993, 1994, the commander of the corps

    11 of the Drina Corps was General Zivanovic. And most of

    12 the Bosniaks and Serbs in the area, in the

    13 municipalities of Srebrenica and Bratunac, knew him,

    14 because he came -- he was born in that area, from the

    15 boundary between Srebrenica, Bratunac municipalities,

    16 and so I was quite surprised to hear that General

    17 Krstic was the commander of that corps. But General

    18 Krstic, and I repeat that, did not amplify on what

    19 General Mladic was saying, nor did he say anything.

    20 JUDGE RIAD: I gather from what you said that

    21 General Krstic replaced Zivanovic, who you thought or

    22 you knew was the corps commander. Was that related a

    23 little bit to what was preceding the events which

    24 happened afterwards?

    25 A. No, I do not think it had any effect. I do

  63. 1 not think it really mattered who was the corps

    2 commander. They simply expected General Zivanovic to

    3 be that, because he came from that area, from the

    4 municipality of Srebrenica. I did not know that

    5 General Krstic had replaced him. But I doubt that

    6 anything would have happened differently. If the plan

    7 was to take the Srebrenica -- or rather, their plan was

    8 to take the enclave and to expel and to separate the

    9 male population, and other physical and psychological

    10 barriers that the civilian population was confronted

    11 with in those days.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: A corps commander means that he

    13 will be one giving the orders?

    14 A. In the former Yugoslav Army, that is, in the

    15 former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, I

    16 served the army in 1981, 1982, and at that time a corps

    17 commander, from what I knew, was also a member of the

    18 Main Staff, that is, the second in command to the

    19 commander of the armed forces. And in his area of

    20 responsibility, the authority covered by the units

    21 subordinate to him. He used to be the man who would

    22 have complete control and therefore responsible for the

    23 conduct of whatever operations, naturally, I assume,

    24 while informing, while notifying the Main Staff about

    25 that.

  64. 1 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned something

    2 about these people, the VRS soldiers, whom you never

    3 saw before -- some of them were young -- and they had

    4 no insignia and they had a different accent. Now, you

    5 being about more or less -- I think you are a man of

    6 culture and you know the accents a little bit perhaps

    7 of the area. What accent did they have? From which

    8 part, do you think?

    9 A. Yes. I completed my secondary education in

    10 Belgrade and I worked there for about a year and a half

    11 after I matriculated from the secondary school. So I

    12 know the Ekavian dialect, such as is spoken by

    13 Counsel Petrusic.

    14 In Serbia most people will use Ekavian

    15 dialect. In Bosnia-Herzegovina or, specifically, the

    16 north-eastern Bosnia, they will speak Ijekavian

    17 dialect. But at that time I could, as I said, I could

    18 hear young soldiers, whom I did not know, well

    19 uniformed, clean-shaven, very tidy, very neat, who were

    20 selectively torching houses in the Potocari area, I

    21 assume having received orders to that effect, and their

    22 speech varied. Some of them, they spoke Ijekavian

    23 dialect, or there was a mixture of the two dialects, of

    24 the Ekavian and Ijekavian, and, as far as I remember,

    25 an Ekavian speech, but different from the one spoken by

  65. 1 those who live in west Serbia. It sounded more like

    2 the speech, like the dialect of Vojvodina and Slavonia.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you are finished? Good.

    4 Now, another question concerning the list which was

    5 given to Major Franken. It was the list of 239 men

    6 which apparently disappeared, if I understood rightly.

    7 And he told you he would put it in his trousers and

    8 nobody would take it. Have you an idea of the future,

    9 what happened to this list?

    10 A. Yes. Well, I spent months trying to locate

    11 this list of 239 men, and Ibro Nuhanovic's son was also

    12 trying to trace it. I told you that Ibro Nuhanovic was

    13 a member of the Bosnian delegation and we just do not

    14 know what happened to him. And it was only through

    15 some journalists who came from Western Europe to

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina that Hasan Nuhanovic was able to get

    17 that list, and he showed me and I saw it and I also

    18 have it. I wrote it in my own hand. But it was only

    19 several months later, perhaps four or five months later

    20 I was able to see it again.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: But during these months you

    22 don't know what happened to it, in whose hands it was?

    23 A. I don't know in whose hands it was. We made

    24 some guesses that perhaps the Dutch battalion

    25 commander, or perhaps his deputy, Major Franken, had

  66. 1 given it to the UNPROFOR command for former Yugoslavia,

    2 which I believe was headquartered in Zagreb. But we as

    3 individuals could not get the list, because there were

    4 some -- it was said that the list, or rather a copy of

    5 that list with 239 names could be given only to some

    6 organisations, and like that. But I was concerned. I

    7 was really worried. I really hoped that the list would

    8 not be destroyed and that we would lose any trace of

    9 existence of those men.

    10 But Mr. President, Your Honours, when one --

    11 when I leafed through that list before I left Bosnia

    12 for The Hague and for this august institution, I went

    13 through that list and I felt a lump in my throat,

    14 because those people are no more. And the world

    15 watched quietly.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: Some people refused to have

    17 their names on the list. Are they also no more, or

    18 perhaps some of them are still around?

    19 A. If I may just a minute. May I have just a

    20 minute? I need to calm down.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: Sorry. I can stop my

    22 questions.

    23 A. Yes, but, you know, they were all my fellow

    24 townsmen. I can. I can. Yes, I'm all right now. I'm

    25 all right now.

  67. 1 Your Honours, there were also some men of

    2 different ages, even those of 80 and over, who in such

    3 a dramatic situation refused to be included in the

    4 list, fearing that the list might fall into the hands

    5 of the Army of Republika Srpska. And they thought,

    6 well, if they don't know my name, then who he is and

    7 what he is, perhaps it will make it easier through the

    8 checkpoints of the Army of Republika Srpska.

    9 Lamentably, that is not what happened. Yes, you may go

    10 on.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned, you answered the

    12 Defence counsel that Serbs started leaving Srebrenica

    13 in 1992. There was something -- I think 5.000, I

    14 don't -- something of that count, and they said the

    15 times are somehow uncertain, this is why they left,

    16 because, according to you, there was no mistreatment,

    17 there was no threat. How -- I mean, were there some

    18 rumours, or perhaps some information, now that you

    19 effectively received, they received, to know what was

    20 going to happen, and that it was safer to go out? Why

    21 did they leave, if there was no threat or no

    22 mistreatment?

    23 A. Your Honour, I mentioned, I don't know how it

    24 was translated, that prior to the war in 1992,

    25 approximately 38.000 people lived in the territory of

  68. 1 the Srebrenica municipality. In the town itself, there

    2 were about 5.000 people, and more than 32.000 lived

    3 outside the town area, and they lived in the so-called

    4 local communes. So as far as the town area is

    5 concerned there were about 1.500 to 2.000 Serbs. So

    6 the Bosniaks were the majority in the town as well.

    7 In the spring, in April of 1992, on the

    8 border with Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in neighbouring

    9 towns on the territory of the Federal Republic of

    10 Yugoslavia, such as Bajina, Basta, Ljubovija, military

    11 units were located on those borders, and there was a

    12 heavy concentration of troops on those borders, troops

    13 belonging to the army of the Federal Republic of

    14 Yugoslavia. Several months earlier that country put a

    15 ban on the import of food stuffs for the population in

    16 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Since both Bosniaks and Serbs

    17 regularly had to cross over that border prior to the

    18 conflict, they had an opportunity to see armed units in

    19 the area, and according to what they said, those units

    20 made it perfectly clear that they would be coming to

    21 Bosnia to protect Serbs, as they put it.

    22 Again, I must say, and I'm speaking the

    23 truth, and nothing but the truth, that before the month

    24 of April, in the territory of the Bratunac and

    25 Srebrenica municipalities, there had been no armed

  69. 1 forces, either of Bosniaks or Serbs. That was the case

    2 until mid-April, and until that time they lived

    3 together, they worked together, their children went to

    4 school together. But at one point in time,

    5 paramilitary units entered the area from the republic

    6 of Yugoslavia. I'm referring first of all to the units

    7 of Arkan. They came to Bratunac. And this caused

    8 panic amongst the population. And at that moment

    9 Srebrenica was being abandoned both by Bosniaks and

    10 Serbs, together, if I may put it that way. Serbs were

    11 mostly moving their families away into the neighbouring

    12 towns in Serbia. Bosniaks were leaving to major

    13 Bosniak centres such as Tuzla, for example, and the

    14 towns in that area.

    15 The result of that situation in the territory

    16 of the Srebrenica municipality was such that as early

    17 as the 17th of April, I think, paramilitary units,

    18 together with certain local Serbian politicians who

    19 were hard-liners and were supported by certain members

    20 of their population, they entered the town of

    21 Srebrenica. There were no Bosniaks in the town area

    22 itself at the time. They had fled, in the meantime,

    23 out of fear. Several elderly Bosniaks had remained, of

    24 course.

    25 But at that moment, the paramilitary units

  70. 1 entered the town, and in late April and early May,

    2 several people, several elderly people, were killed by

    3 the members of those paramilitary units. The victims

    4 were old and infirm Bosniaks. And let us not be

    5 confused about that. In April of that year, citizens

    6 of both ethnic groups were leaving Srebrenica.

    7 JUDGE RIAD: I think I understood. Thank

    8 you.

    9 A. Yes, thank you.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    11 Judge Riad.

    12 Judge Wald.

    13 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Mandzic, you referred, in

    14 your earlier testimony, to the fact that there were

    15 about 5.000 people in the UN Compound before the

    16 evacuation and maybe 15.000 to 20.000 people were

    17 outside the compound in the neighbouring streets,

    18 congregated, milling around. I have two questions.

    19 One is: You also testified, and I think we saw a video

    20 of Colonel Karremans, who said basically the vast

    21 majority of the evacuees were women and children or

    22 maybe the elderly or the sick. Is that true of the

    23 group that was outside the compound, the 15.000 to

    24 20.000, as well as those that were inside, or were

    25 there considerably greater proportion of men in the

  71. 1 group outside the compound?

    2 A. Thank you for your question, Your Honour. At

    3 the base itself, at the camp, approximately 5.000

    4 people had found shelter. However, outside the camp

    5 there were no 15.000 or 20.000 people but probably more

    6 than 25.000 people. I think that their situation was

    7 far worse than the situation of the people who had

    8 gathered in the camp two or three days before. They

    9 had no water. They had no toilet facilities. They had

    10 no food. On the other hand, they were being attacked

    11 by the VRS units.

    12 JUDGE WALD: I understand that from your

    13 prior testimony. My question specifically was though:

    14 In that 25.000 people outside, were they mostly women

    15 and children too or were they more a mixture of men?

    16 From the photographs one would see many men there, but

    17 it was a greater percentage of men in the outside group

    18 than of the inside group? Is that right or wrong?

    19 A. In that group, in that mass of 25.000 people,

    20 there were mostly women and children, but to answer

    21 specifically that question as regards the male

    22 population between 18 years of age and 60, I think that

    23 there were more of them outside than inside the camp.

    24 And proportionally speaking, there were, of course,

    25 much more people outside the camp than within the

  72. 1 compound itself.

    2 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. My second question

    3 along the same lines is: When the evacuation began,

    4 were the people outside the compound the ones -- the

    5 25.000 that you talked about, were they put on buses or

    6 were the people inside the compound put on buses first

    7 and, later on, what happened to that group outside the

    8 compound once the evacuation began?

    9 A. I'm using the word "deportation." I felt it

    10 on my own skin. Began on the 12th of July, in the

    11 early afternoon hours.

    12 The first to be put on buses were persons

    13 standing outside the camp, and then it was only later

    14 on, in the afternoon hours of the 13th of July, that

    15 the persons inside the camp were being put on buses,

    16 were being deported.

    17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. Now, on the

    18 night of the 11th in the Fontana Hotel, the first

    19 meeting that you went to and of which we saw a video,

    20 General Mladic said several times words to the effect

    21 of, "Get your people to lay down their arms if they

    22 want to survive. Survival is in your hands. Bring me

    23 a delegation that can produce people who will lay down

    24 their arms if you want to preserve the population."

    25 Now, at that point, as you have testified and

  73. 1 others as well, the people in the compound and outside

    2 of the compound were mainly women and children. The

    3 column that was going to Tuzla had already left, is

    4 that not right? It left from a neighbouring village.

    5 So how did you understand General Mladic's ultimatum to

    6 be? If you had wanted to accede to it, what could you

    7 have done? The people with the arms had already left,

    8 as I understand it, and begun to march towards Tuzla on

    9 their own, and the people that were left in the

    10 compound were largely women and children. So how did

    11 you -- when he talked about "survive or vanish" or "lay

    12 down your arms," what do you think he wanted you to

    13 do?

    14 A. I do remember very well what General Mladic

    15 said and how he threatened us. He said, "Lay down your

    16 weapons and you can either survive or vanish." It was

    17 difficult to understand such a request, because we were

    18 simply representatives of the displaced population. We

    19 were not representatives of any armed force.

    20 However, General Mladic persisted in his

    21 request that we should lay our weapons, and nobody had

    22 anything -- nobody amongst the population that gathered

    23 there. So I realised it was a kind of psychological

    24 pressure, and I feared the worst for that population.

    25 JUDGE WALD: When you convened the next

  74. 1 morning with your three-person delegation, did

    2 General Mladic bring that up again? You didn't testify

    3 too much about what was happening on the morning of the

    4 12th. Did he again say, "Well, here's your

    5 delegation. I want you to tell me you'll lay down your

    6 arms and everything will be all right," or did he just

    7 drop that subject altogether on the morning of the 12th

    8 meeting?

    9 A. Your Honour, to the best of my recollection,

    10 on the following day, on the 12th of July,

    11 General Mladic reiterated the request to our

    12 delegation. He said, "Lay down your weapons," and

    13 again, as far as I can remember, he said that, "Whoever

    14 lays down his weapons, I, as a General and a human

    15 being, can guarantee there would be no problems, would

    16 have no problems. Our objective is not to harm the

    17 Muslim population, and we will enable every single

    18 individual, regardless of age and sex, to choose the

    19 place where he or she wants live."

    20 JUDGE WALD: Did anyone in your delegation

    21 ask him or suggest to him that you didn't have a

    22 population with arms, you just had some women and

    23 children and some elderly and infirm displaced persons,

    24 there was no way to get them to lay down arms that they

    25 didn't have?

  75. 1 A. Yes. Yes, Your Honour. This was done

    2 firstly by Mrs. Camila Omanovic, as a member of our

    3 delegation. She said, "Well, sir, we have nothing to

    4 do with those who took to the woods, who may have

    5 weapons with them. What we have here are refugees,

    6 displaced persons without any food, water, medicine,

    7 clothing."

    8 JUDGE WALD: Am I correct that in both the

    9 11th meeting in the evening and the 12th meeting there

    10 was a film crew filming this, or was it only the night

    11 of the 11th that General Mladic had a film crew who was

    12 filming the whole thing? Were they on the 12th or were

    13 they on the 11th?

    14 A. On the 11th and the 12th of July, the film

    15 crew was there, and they also came to Potocari on the

    16 13th of July. I could see them there.

    17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question deals

    18 with the document that we talked about that was signed

    19 on the 17th. You went over, with Mr. Cayley, some of

    20 the statements that you said were not correct, were

    21 inaccurate. Let me point your direction to one of them

    22 that you did not discuss, to get your opinion on that.

    23 It is the one -- the third from the bottom which says:

    24 "It was agreed that we could choose where we wanted to

    25 go. We decided that the entire civilian population

  76. 1 move out of the enclave and be evacuated to the

    2 territory of Kladanj."

    3 Now, can you tell me your opinion on whether

    4 that was an accurate statement that "we," whoever "we"

    5 is, "decided that the entire civilian population would

    6 move out"?

    7 A. It is not an accurate statement, Your

    8 Honour. Between the 6th and the 11th of July, units of

    9 the VRS forced about 40.000 strong population of the

    10 area to leave their homes, to abandon their estates,

    11 their belongings, everything they had. Most of them

    12 found themselves in Potocari; that is, they were

    13 directed by VRS units to that particular location

    14 because of the fire that was being opened. The

    15 population was pushed up to Potocari by VRS units.

    16 On the 12th and the 13th of July, VRS units

    17 encircled the area and started entering the group of

    18 people. Then they began separating the population

    19 according to their age and sex. They started putting

    20 people on buses.

    21 We are the kind of people that cannot easily

    22 accept departure from our homes and separation. Every

    23 single change, every move to another town, another city

    24 is very difficult to us, let alone deportation.

    25 So this statement is by no means true and

  77. 1 does not reflect the real situation. If there had been

    2 any understanding on the part of VRS units, if they had

    3 withdrawn at least here at the boundaries of the

    4 demilitarised area, everybody, all of the population,

    5 would have come back.

    6 I apologise, Your Honour, but I have to say

    7 that we had been living as refugees for years. We have

    8 been living as refugees for years, and we're trying to

    9 go back but this is very difficult. Before the war,

    10 we, and I refer to both Bosniaks and Serbs, used to

    11 have a good life there. We had our houses there, we

    12 had good salaries. There were no homeless people. We

    13 had, you know, more houses than families. There are

    14 figures that can testify to that effect.

    15 JUDGE WALD: At the time of this statement,

    16 July 17th, 1995, did any Serbians still live -- any

    17 Serb civilians still live in Srebrenica? I know you

    18 talked a great deal and told us a great deal about how

    19 the Bosniaks and the Serbs, starting in April, had

    20 begun to leave, but were there any Serbian civilians

    21 left in Srebrenica in July?

    22 A. You mean before the capturing of the

    23 enclave?

    24 JUDGE WALD: At the time of the Potocari --

    25 no, after the capturing. At the time of the Potocari

  78. 1 evacuation, were there any Serbians still resident,

    2 living in Srebrenica?

    3 A. Since 1992, that is, May 1992 until July

    4 1995, there had been a small group of Serbian citizens,

    5 mostly elderly people. And on that day, on the 11th of

    6 July when this massive persecution occurred of the

    7 members of the Bosniak community, that small group of

    8 Serbian residents remained. And I can say that because

    9 I work in Srebrenica, that most of them still live

    10 there and work there, and they still hoped that we

    11 would come back.

    12 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

    13 A. But on the other -- yes.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, as

    15 far as I can see, we have been working for one and a

    16 half hours, and this has been quite an ordeal for our

    17 interpreters. I'm in a bit of a quandary here. I have

    18 questions myself, but it wouldn't make much sense to

    19 bring back the witness after the recess. Would you be

    20 so kind as to give us another 10 minutes? I will try

    21 and be very brief in my questions. Very well. Thank

    22 you very much.

    23 Mr. Mandzic, I have three questions for you,

    24 and I will try to be as brief as possible, and I should

    25 also ask you to answer with the same concern in mind.

  79. 1 I'm interested in reasons of the signature on

    2 this statement as it was presented to you. Did they

    3 explain to you any reasons for the signing of the

    4 statement?

    5 A. What is stated here is not correct.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Sorry to

    7 interrupt you. I would like to know if the persons who

    8 produced this document told you, "You're going to sign

    9 it because so-and-so."

    10 A. Well, we were all very well aware of the fact

    11 that in Bratunac, which was a town controlled by the

    12 VRS, that several dozens of wounded persons had been

    13 kept, that in Potocari there was still a number, that

    14 is, several dozens of severely wounded persons,

    15 including women and children, and we also knew that at

    16 the time there were 27 healthy persons, who also wanted

    17 to survive, still there.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But

    19 what you're telling me are your own reasons, the

    20 reasons you perceived as being such. What I'm

    21 interested in is what Mr. Deronjic told you. Did he

    22 explain anything? Did he tell you why you had to sign

    23 this statement?

    24 A. No. No. He did not.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you were

  80. 1 aware of the situation. You knew what would happen,

    2 and you felt that you had to sign this document. Was

    3 that the case?

    4 A. Yes. The fate of probably 80 or 100 Bosniaks

    5 depended on our signature and also the fate of the

    6 soldiers of the Dutch Battalion.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    8 Mr. Mandzic. You have spoken about that. Thank you

    9 very much. We are little pressed for time.

    10 I have one other question in respect of this

    11 document. You signed a declaration, a statement, in

    12 your language, and you also signed a copy in English.

    13 Is that true?

    14 A. Yes, it is.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] At the

    16 time, did you understand English?

    17 A. A little bit.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    19 Thank you. Still on the same document. In most of the

    20 sentences the plural is used in this document. It

    21 says, "we," "our civilian population," and so on and so

    22 forth, but at one point it is stated: "After the

    23 agreement was reached, I claim that the evacuation of

    24 the civilian population of the Srebrenica enclave was

    25 carried out absolutely correctly," and so on. I'm

  81. 1 interested to know who was the person who was

    2 speaking. Who used this particular expression "I

    3 claim"?

    4 A. There was no Bosniak delegation, properly

    5 speaking, on the 13th of the July. Mr. Nuhanovic, with

    6 his family, had left; that is, we didn't know anything

    7 about him. Mrs. Camila Omanovic had a nervous

    8 breakdown because soldiers of the VRS had entered the

    9 area. So they knew very well about the whereabouts of

    10 the members of the Bosniak delegation.

    11 So I was the only one who was capable of

    12 following the situation. I was trying to record

    13 everything but, of course, I wasn't in the position to

    14 record everything because I feared that whatever I

    15 write might end up in the hands of the Serb army.

    16 So the only person they could count upon was

    17 myself, and I was the one who had to understand the

    18 situation of those people, and their fate depended on

    19 this understanding of mine.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So this

    21 expression "I claim," first person singular, refers to

    22 you?

    23 A. Well, yes, but it is not mine, properly

    24 speaking, because I was not the drafter of this

    25 statement, and the statement did not reflect the

  82. 1 facts. It was prepared in advance, and it was merely

    2 an ultimatum.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

    4 Mr. Mandzic, you probably read this document several

    5 times, and you probably read it more than I did. If

    6 you have a look at it, all we have throughout the

    7 document is the first person plural, "we", "our

    8 population," and so on and so forth. But there is one

    9 paragraph, one single paragraph where the wording used

    10 is "I claim." What I'm trying to understand is who it

    11 was who said, "I" and who it was who used the

    12 expression "we" and "our." Are you in a position to

    13 explain that to us?

    14 A. We, and I, probably referred to a

    15 representative of the civilian government of Republika

    16 Srpska. In this document, where it is stated "I

    17 claim," I do not claim anything, because I was not the

    18 drafter of the document.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    20 So if I can use the expression, there is some kind of

    21 schizophrenia in this document. We have two persons

    22 speaking at the same time. At any rate, we will see

    23 later on how this problem can be resolved.

    24 A. Your Honour, if I may, in this document the

    25 drafter of the document used the word "I"

  83. 1 conscientiously. Two other members of the delegation,

    2 Nuhanovic, for example, had been taken away. He had

    3 probably been killed in the meantime. Camila Omanovic

    4 had had a nervous breakdown. In the previous sentences

    5 the persons are speaking -- are used in plural.

    6 Probably several persons are needed to have a proper

    7 agreement, but I was the only one who was there, so the

    8 drafter of this particular statement had all the

    9 necessary knowledge about our situation.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    11 Another question which I have concerns the presence of

    12 General Krstic. We know that he was present at two

    13 meetings in Bratunac on the 10th and on the 11th. Did

    14 you see him again after those two meetings?

    15 A. General Krstic, I never saw him before the

    16 11th of July. The only time I saw him was on the 11th

    17 and the 12th of July.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    19 Another question.

    20 Mr. Mandzic, it is Exhibit 40A, and this is

    21 the transcript of a video, which I wish to read to

    22 you. General Mladic asks you, "Are you a teacher?"

    23 And you say, "Yes, I was this morning, but I don't know

    24 for how long." What did you mean by that?

    25 A. General Mladic put a question to me: what

  84. 1 was my profession and what had I done before the war

    2 and while living in the enclave. And I told him that

    3 before the war I was a teacher also in the enclave in

    4 1994, 1995, that I was a teacher and school principal.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

    6 Mr. Mandzic. Will you please try to answer my question

    7 directly. General Mladic asked you, "Are you a

    8 teacher?" And you said, "Yes, I am. I was one this

    9 morning, but I do not know for how long yet." And

    10 Mladic then goes on, "What school did you come from?"

    11 And you say, "The electrical engineering."

    12 My question is, what did you mean when you

    13 said, "I was this morning, but I don't know for how

    14 long yet." So this is my question. Would you please

    15 try to answer it directly.

    16 A. Well, I didn't know if I would live to see

    17 another day or not, because the enclave had been taken,

    18 its population expelled, and I could see that the

    19 Bosnian Serb army was treating the Bosnian population

    20 ruthlessly, so I simply realised that I could expect

    21 the worst.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    23 I have finished. I do not have any more questions at

    24 the moment. So you answered the questions of the

    25 counsel for the Prosecution, the counsel for the

  85. 1 Defence, the Judges. Is there anything that you should

    2 like to say and were not asked about? If there is

    3 something that you should like to tell us, you can do

    4 so now.

    5 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, about life in

    6 Srebrenica between 1992 and 1995, about the suffering

    7 of the population, the expulsion, and so on and so

    8 forth, one could go on and on. But what I should like

    9 to emphasise, and it goes beyond this institution, is

    10 how to overcome the effects.

    11 In the first place, I have in mind tens of

    12 thousands of expelled who live in Tuzla, Sarajevo, and

    13 dozens of other places around the Federation, and most

    14 of them have said that they would like to go back to

    15 their homes. But for political and other barriers,

    16 people are not returning. And they live now as

    17 second-rate citizens. They suffer because their life

    18 is not worthy of man. But I do know that that is not a

    19 subject that is dealt by this Tribunal. But any

    20 advice, any recommendation that you might have, I would

    21 think would be of great help to other institutions who

    22 are responsible for trying to resolve the problem of

    23 refugees and displacement as soon as possible, to help

    24 those people go back home and live life worthy of human

    25 beings.

  86. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

    2 Mr. Mandzic. We have finished. You have told us about

    3 your suffering. Thank you. You showed great courage

    4 in coming and testifying here. You have also given

    5 evidence of your spirit of tolerance. I believe I

    6 speak in the name of my colleagues when I tell you that

    7 we all wish you a happy return to your home. Yes,

    8 those places were witness to suffering, but they should

    9 also be witness to tolerance and peace. Injustice,

    10 wherever, shall always be a threat to everybody.

    11 Now I believe I must make it up to everybody,

    12 and especially the interpreters, and we shall make a

    13 half-an-hour break now and we'll resume after the break

    14 with another witness. Half an hour, therefore.

    15 Thank you and farewell.

    16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Thank you, too.

    17 --- Recess taken at 1.10 p.m.

    18 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    20 Now we have also had the opportunity of enjoying this

    21 great weather, and I believe the interpreters did the

    22 same thing, but now I think it is time to resume.

    23 Mr. Cayley, the floor is yours.

    24 MR. CAYLEY: Just a point that relates to the

    25 document with which you were concerned, which is

  87. 1 Exhibit 47, and we've been notified by the translation

    2 and interpretation unit that there is, in fact, a

    3 mistake in the French translation in the final

    4 paragraph. In the English translation -- this is the

    5 final paragraph on page 1 of the document: "After the

    6 agreement was reached, I claim." That is what it

    7 states in the English translation, and apparently the

    8 verb used in the French translation is wrong, and is

    9 not a correct translation of the original version in

    10 B/C/S.

    11 Please don't ask me the details. Being an

    12 Englishman, I'm embarrassingly unilingual, so I don't

    13 want to get involved in arguments over what it should

    14 be but, nevertheless, we're informed it's wrong and a

    15 corrected version will be produced, which we will

    16 submit to the Court tomorrow.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Because if

    18 one reads the French version, "exiger," "I demand it,"

    19 then the English version should say, "I claimed." But

    20 my question was not to find out about the correct tense

    21 but whether it was singular or plural. But we shall

    22 wait for the amended version to see the result. Thank

    23 you.

    24 MR. CAYLEY: I think that the tense is

    25 actually correct in terms of -- in fact, not that you

  88. 1 refer to the tense, whether the word "I" or "we" was

    2 used. But from my own interpretation of this document,

    3 if you go to the second paragraph, it actually states,

    4 "The representatives from our side were Camila

    5 Purkovic, Ibro Nuhanovic, and myself Nesib Mandzic."

    6 Now, I'm obviously not really in a position

    7 to really argue the matter before you, Mr. President.

    8 Perhaps now is not the proper time. But I think the

    9 document does actually make it clear that he was

    10 signing as an individual on behalf of two people that

    11 were not present, and that is why the document was

    12 drafted in that manner.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Be that as

    14 it may, I do not usually follow the French

    15 translation. Now that I did have the French

    16 translation, we have a problem, but I will still want

    17 to have French translations.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: I believe that "claim" is not

    19 "exiger" in French. "Exiger" is stronger than

    20 "claim," but there are more greater authorities than

    21 me. "Claim" could be "required" or even "wanted,"

    22 but "exiger" is too strong. So perhaps you have to

    23 check that. Thank you.

    24 MR. CAYLEY: You're asking somebody who is

    25 not an authority, Judge Riad, but that is certainly the

  89. 1 explanation that has been given to me, that "exiger" is

    2 a much stronger term. I think it means "request"

    3 rather than "claim." It's "request" rather than

    4 "affirmation."

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,

    6 but we are not now to go into the review of the

    7 translation, but we do work indeed under very difficult

    8 conditions. These cases are very difficult. We all

    9 work under very difficult conditions and, therefore, it

    10 is absolutely requisite that we maintain good

    11 communication.

    12 However, I should like also to apologise to

    13 the interpreters, but I also wish to say that we have

    14 only a certain concentration, capacity, and after a

    15 certain time, of course, it simply declines, after a

    16 certain period of time. So perhaps we should try to

    17 keep the -- to discuss sets of questions, entities of

    18 questions separately, not to go to one or two things.

    19 I also think that 50 minutes would be --

    20 50 minutes is decided to be a good period of time for

    21 children, during which they can hold their

    22 concentration. For the adults it's closer to an hour,

    23 1 hour and 10. After that, they lose the

    24 concentration. So we say that 1 hour and 10 minutes is

    25 a good time, and perhaps 1 hour and 20. After that we

  90. 1 should make a break because, otherwise, I'm afraid it

    2 might damage the communication, because somebody is

    3 about to finish something and then we get into 1 hour

    4 and 10 minutes, 1 hour and 20 minutes. I believe that

    5 both parties can, in such a case, take initiative, make

    6 a sign, for instance, this international sign, I

    7 believe everybody shows that, and say, "Let us make a

    8 break because the powers of concentration are rapidly

    9 declining." So we should bear in mind the time and our

    10 powers of concentration.

    11 Thank you very much for this. Now I think we

    12 are ready for the next witness. I see that it will be

    13 Mr. Harmon who will -- tell us, you are omniscient, you

    14 are all-knowing, Mr. Harmon, so will you tell us what

    15 we're going to do now.

    16 MR. HARMON: Yes, our next witness is

    17 Mrs. Camila Omanovic.

    18 [The witness entered court]


    20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    22 afternoon, Mrs. Omanovic. Did you hear me? Would you

    23 stand up and remaining standing just for a short while,

    24 please.

    25 Madam, you will now read the solemn

  91. 1 declaration which you will be given by the usher.

    2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    3 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    4 and nothing but the truth.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    6 You may take your seat now. Just make yourself

    7 comfortable.

    8 Thank you for coming here to testify,

    9 Mrs. Omanovic, to give your evidence before the

    10 International Criminal Tribunal. You will now answer

    11 questions which the Prosecution, Mr. Harmon, will ask

    12 of you.

    13 Yes, Mr. Harmon.

    14 Examined by Mr. Harmon:

    15 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Omanovic. Can you hear

    16 me?

    17 A. Yes, I can.

    18 Q. Would you spell your last name for the

    19 record, please?

    20 A. O-m-a-n-o-v-i-c.

    21 Q. Could you spell your first name for the

    22 record?

    23 A. C-a-m-i-l-a.

    24 Q. What is your date of birth?

    25 A. I was born on the 15th of April, 1953, in

  92. 1 Srebrenica.

    2 MR. HARMON: I'm not getting a translation,

    3 Mr. President.

    4 Q. We'll continue, Mrs. Omanovic. Could you

    5 tell the Judges about your educational background,

    6 please?

    7 A. I completed my elementary and secondary

    8 education in Srebrenica. Then I enrolled in university

    9 in Tuzla, and I completed the first stage of the

    10 faculty of economics, and I came back to Srebrenica and

    11 found a job there.

    12 Q. Were you born in Srebrenica?

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,

    14 I'm sorry, but I cannot see on the transcript the date

    15 of birth of Mrs. Camila Omanovic. Perhaps you could

    16 ask her to repeat it, please. Thank you.

    17 MR. HARMON:

    18 Q. Mrs. Omanovic, could you repeat your date of

    19 birth, please?

    20 A. I was born in Srebrenica on the 15th of

    21 April, 1953.

    22 Q. Can you tell the Judges when you were

    23 married?

    24 A. It was the 10th of February, 1977. That is

    25 when I married Ahmet Omanovic.

  93. 1 Q. Do you have any children?

    2 A. I had two children, Dzermina Omanovic, born

    3 on the 28th of October, 1977; and Dzermin Omanovic,

    4 born in 1981, on the 25th of December. My daughter

    5 also married in Srebrenica, and she gave birth to a

    6 child in 1985, in March of 1985.

    7 Q. In 1985 or in 1995?

    8 A. 1995.

    9 Q. So at the time of the events that you're

    10 going to be describing to the Judges, you had a

    11 grandchild; is that correct?

    12 A. Yes. My grandchild was born on the 10th of

    13 March, 1995.

    14 Q. Did you continue to work in the area of

    15 Srebrenica or Potocari after your marriage?

    16 A. Yes. I worked in Srebrenica and Potocari

    17 throughout my life there, both my husband and I.

    18 Q. So it would be fair to say that you're quite

    19 familiar with the area of Potocari?

    20 A. I know the area of Potocari quite well

    21 because from 1996 my husband worked there, and besides,

    22 that is my native country, so I do know Potocari very

    23 well.

    24 Q. Mrs. Omanovic, let me ask you one last

    25 question about your background. Are you, by faith, a

  94. 1 Muslim?

    2 A. I am a Muslim by faith.

    3 Q. And was your husband Ahmet likewise, by

    4 faith, a Muslim?

    5 A. Yes, my husband Ahmet was also a Muslim.

    6 Q. Now, Mrs. Omanovic, I'd like to focus your

    7 attention on the 10th of July, 1995, and I'd like to

    8 ask you to tell the Judges where you were on that

    9 date.

    10 A. I was, on that day, in my brother's house,

    11 Zulfo Turkovic. His house is at the exit from

    12 Srebrenica.

    13 Q. Now, can you see the large map that's to your

    14 right? Could you take a pointer and point to the

    15 general location where your brother's house was

    16 located?

    17 A. It was here approximately [indicated].

    18 Q. So the record is perfectly clear, the witness

    19 has pointed south of the town of Srebrenica, near the

    20 hairpin turn indicated below the town of Srebrenica.

    21 You may resume your seat. Who was with

    22 you --

    23 A. I'm sorry.

    24 Q. It's quite all right Mrs. Omanovic. Who was

    25 with you at your brother's house on the 10th of July?

  95. 1 A. The 10th of July in my brother's house were

    2 my husband and my brother.

    3 Q. On that date, did something unusual happen?

    4 Can you describe to the Court what it was and what you

    5 did in reaction to it?

    6 A. That day there was a lot of gunfire around my

    7 brother's house. As I came out of -- came out of the

    8 house onto the terrace and was engaged in some everyday

    9 chores, I could see very many people loaded with

    10 luggage moving towards the town, and I didn't pay much

    11 attention to it because the day before that I had sent

    12 my daughter and my son into town to my daughter's flat,

    13 and my husband and my brother and I stayed in the

    14 house. I had livestock which we had brought during the

    15 war merely to survive.

    16 There was a lot of gunfire around us, but it

    17 was at a distance, and we'd already become immune to it

    18 and were not paying much attention. But at a certain

    19 point I looked through the window, across the river,

    20 the house there. I saw a group of people who were

    21 carrying that luggage and were standing below the

    22 terrace and indicating or mimicking that fire was

    23 coming from above the house. Then I looked to the

    24 other side and saw thousands of bullets hitting the

    25 facade of my brother's house. My brother jumped across

  96. 1 the terrace and made his way from one house to another

    2 to go there. My husband and I did not jump from the

    3 terrace. We ran down the stairs to the next-door house

    4 and thus we came with very many people who were coming

    5 from all the houses, and we all headed towards the

    6 town.

    7 The gunfire was gaining momentum, and I think

    8 it came from all the weapons, from artillery, from

    9 infantry, and shells and bullets were falling all

    10 around us. We, however, managed to get to the town,

    11 and the gunfire then stopped. I mean, there was some

    12 sporadic, intermittent fire, one could hear it in the

    13 town, but it was not as intensive as on the periphery.

    14 That night I spent with my daughter and

    15 grandchild, and lots of people who got there who were

    16 all rallied in the centre of the town.

    17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked

    18 to speak slower, please.

    19 MR. HARMON:

    20 Q. You've been asked by the interpretation booth

    21 if you could just speak a little slower.

    22 Now, let me focus your attention on the

    23 following day, the 11th of July. Tell the Judges what

    24 you did.

    25 A. On the 11th I went back to Petrica -- that is

  97. 1 where my brother's house is -- because the livestock

    2 had to be fed. And also the laundry, the diapers of my

    3 grandchild, were still drying on the clothesline behind

    4 the house. And my husband and I decided to go early in

    5 the morning and go back to my brother's house. And

    6 that is what we did. We followed the bank of the river

    7 and we reached the house and there was no gunfire. And

    8 on our way we met various people, neighbours, who said

    9 because Srebrenica is in a valley, in a hollow, and

    10 they said that a bullet would be fired from time to

    11 time by snipers. But we got to the house, we fed the

    12 livestock, we cut off the clothesline and all the

    13 diapers fell down, and we came out. We just picked it

    14 up in a hurry and went back to our daughter's.

    15 And there was a lull until about afternoon

    16 and then hell broke loose, because gunfire came from

    17 all sides, from all possible weapons. And people

    18 again, with all that luggage, they headed for

    19 Potocari. And we somehow gathered all around the

    20 petrol pump which was near the UN base, which was by

    21 the petrol station near Bratunac. And there were very

    22 many people there, women, children, and just whatever

    23 they happened to be wearing. They had children on

    24 their shoulders or some small belongings. They were

    25 milling about, screaming, because shells were falling

  98. 1 from all over.

    2 The road was so narrow that all those people

    3 simply could not fit in, fit onto the road, and there

    4 were several trucks which tried to take people to

    5 Potocari, but --

    6 Q. Let me interrupt you for just a minute,

    7 Mrs. Omanovic. Were you with your husband around noon

    8 on the 11th of July?

    9 A. Yes, I was with my husband, and the whole

    10 family was there together. And then we parted our ways

    11 at the petrol station. He went towards Kazani. All

    12 the men, all the men over 13, headed for it. Somehow a

    13 selection started, and they headed off towards the

    14 Kazani and we headed for Potocari.

    15 Q. Now, what was the date of birth of your

    16 husband?

    17 A. My husband was born in Mostar on the 10th of

    18 July, 1948.

    19 Q. Now, were there -- at this gas station, were

    20 there a lot of people who went in a different direction

    21 other than Potocari?

    22 A. Yes, very many people went in the other

    23 direction who did not go to Potocari.

    24 Q. Now, were the people who went in the

    25 direction other than Potocari, were they mostly men and

  99. 1 boys, or were there some women involved in that

    2 particular group as well?

    3 A. Men, by and large, but there was an

    4 occasional women amongst them.

    5 Q. Now, did some of these men in this group by

    6 the gas station have guns?

    7 A. Some of them -- some of the men did have

    8 weapons.

    9 Q. Did your husband have a gun?

    10 A. My husband did not have a weapon. A month

    11 before that he had been operated on and felt -- and was

    12 unwell. But he nevertheless started for the forest,

    13 because rumours spread that if he fell into the Serb

    14 hands, that he would be maltreated, and he would not

    15 allow that, and so he went to the forest with other

    16 men.

    17 Q. Now, was the 11th of July, 1995 the last time

    18 you saw your husband alive?

    19 A. That was the last time I saw him; never

    20 again.

    21 Q. Mrs. Omanovic, there should be some tissues

    22 to your left.

    23 Mrs. Omanovic, in which direction did you

    24 proceed, and with whom did you proceed in that

    25 direction?

  100. 1 A. With my daughter, son, and grandchild, I

    2 started to Potocari.

    3 Q. And how old was your son at the time and how

    4 old was your daughter and grandchild?

    5 A. My grandchild was 4 months old, my daughter

    6 was 17, and my son 13.

    7 Q. Can you describe to the Judges the

    8 environment as people fled toward Potocari; how many

    9 people there were, what the conditions were like, the

    10 state of mind of the people who were fleeing from

    11 Srebrenica to Potocari was like?

    12 A. It was a huge crowd; several thousand women,

    13 children, and old people and babies, and they all had

    14 one thing in mind: to escape, to flee to the UN base

    15 in Potocari. Because we believed that if we did reach

    16 that, that we would be saved. Everybody was in a

    17 hurry. Everybody was carrying their belongings,

    18 babies. Women were crying, screaming. It was such a

    19 huge throng of panicking people with only one thing in

    20 mind: Let's get to Potocari as quickly as possible.

    21 If we get there, we'll be all right.

    22 And under such conditions, gunfire came from

    23 all sides. Thousands and thousands of bullets, and a

    24 swarm of bees all around buzzing all the time, and

    25 every now and then shells were fired at this crowd.

  101. 1 And in all this confusion somebody lost his belongings,

    2 somebody a piece of bread. An old woman who could not

    3 manage in this crowd fell. And APC, if it came across

    4 a body put aside, they would simply be collected, put

    5 on the APC. And they were simply telling us, "Hurry,

    6 hurry."

    7 I was somewhere in the rear of this column

    8 and I had all my luggage and the baby's luggage in the

    9 pram. My daughter took the baby and started for

    10 Potocari. But there were so many remains of clothes

    11 and personal affairs on the road that you couldn't

    12 really push the pram really to reach Potocari, but

    13 somehow we covered those five kilometres, and that was

    14 really -- that was really sheer horror.

    15 Q. Mrs. Omanovic, did all the people who fled

    16 from Srebrenica to Potocari go on foot or were some

    17 people taken in UN vehicles?

    18 A. Some of the people were taken in a UN

    19 vehicles; however, not everybody could be transported

    20 in that way. The first group of people, who was the

    21 closest to the UN base, they were put on the trucks and

    22 they were crowded. But there was a lot of panic going

    23 on, because everybody wanted to board those trucks at

    24 the same time. They were clinging on the trucks

    25 because they believed, they hoped, that they would be

  102. 1 safe if they reached the area in time. So everybody

    2 rushed towards those trucks. There were lots of people

    3 coming from all sides. They were trying to get hold of

    4 the truck, and the trucks had to leave before everybody

    5 was on board, and there were lots of people actually

    6 clinging from those trucks as they were leaving.

    7 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we would now like

    8 to show a film. It's about seven minutes long. It's

    9 Prosecutor's Exhibit 50. And if we could have the

    10 lights dimmed and Prosecutor's Exhibit 50 shown. And

    11 this film, Mr. President and Your Honours, is in the UN

    12 compound in Potocari.

    13 [Videotape played]

    14 MR. HARMON:

    15 Q. Mrs. Omanovic, do these images that we've

    16 been looking at for the last few minutes accurately

    17 depict the condition of the refugees as you recall

    18 them?

    19 A. Yes, they do. This is exactly how it

    20 happened. Only this is just a small excerpt. You have

    21 to imagine thousands and thousands of more people

    22 coming in; you have to imagine all those voices. The

    23 whole thing has to be magnified. This is only one

    24 truck that we saw. Now, you have to imagine several

    25 thousands of people and the noise being much louder,

  103. 1 and you also have to bear in mind that we kept hearing

    2 fire and the shells that were falling all around us.

    3 Q. What were the weather conditions like on the

    4 11th of July in Potocari?

    5 A. It was a very warm day. It was very hot.

    6 Q. And when you arrived in Potocari, where did

    7 you go specifically?

    8 A. Together with my family, I went to the

    9 compound of the Zinc Factory.

    10 MR. HARMON: Now, could I, with the

    11 assistance of the usher, have Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2

    12 placed on the ELMO.

    13 Q. Mrs. Omanovic, I've shown you this exhibit

    14 before. I'm going to ask you to point out on

    15 Prosecutor's 5/2 the location of the Zinc Factory and

    16 orient the Judges to other locations that will be

    17 relevant to your testimony.

    18 A. On the first day, that is, when I first

    19 arrived to the compound of the Zinc Factory, coming

    20 from the direction of Srebrenica, I was here, in this

    21 area, in the corner of this area [indicates], together

    22 with my children.

    23 And on the following day, on the second day,

    24 I moved to the Express plant, which was part of the

    25 transport company, of the bussing company, and I was

  104. 1 here in the vicinity of the petrol station. It was a

    2 petrol station that was used by buses. That's where

    3 the spent the second night.

    4 Q. While we're on this particular exhibit, did

    5 you used to work in a building known as the Feros

    6 Building?

    7 A. Yes, I did. For the past three years prior

    8 to the war, I worked there as a chief accountant. This

    9 is the factory in question, the Feros Factory. It's

    10 here.

    11 Q. We're going to be referring later in your

    12 testimony to a White House that was near the Feros

    13 Building. Can you locate that particular building that

    14 we're going to be referring to in your testimony, the

    15 White House?

    16 A. The White House is situated across the

    17 street, across from the Feros Factory. I was able to

    18 see the White House from my office in the factory. My

    19 window was facing the White House, the window of my

    20 office.

    21 Q. Now, let me show you that. Would you

    22 re-examine that image again and see if your pointer is

    23 on the right building, because do you see the road that

    24 is going from the top of the image to the bottom of the

    25 image? You mentioned that the White House was across

  105. 1 the street from the Feros Building.

    2 A. Yes. This is our warehouse, and it was

    3 across the street from that [indicated]. This is the

    4 road to Bratunac and the White House is the one here

    5 [indicated].

    6 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Mrs.

    7 Omanovic. Just for clarification, you said you worked

    8 in this area for three years. Is that correct?

    9 A. I said three years. I worked in Feros for

    10 three years.

    11 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, it is 2.29. This

    12 might be a good place to break before we go into the

    13 more substantive areas of Mrs. Omanovic's testimony.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you're

    15 right, Mr. Harmon. I think it's much better that we

    16 adjourn now for today at this point. So we will finish

    17 with our work for today.

    18 Mrs. Omanovic, we will continue with your

    19 testimony, and we will see you again at 9.30.

    20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    21 at 2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on

    22 Thursday, the 23rd day of March, 2000

    23 at 9.30 a.m.